Trying to keep the faith (Part 2)

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Old thread ...

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2820026&page=11

Quick recap for those not familiar with my sitch

BD was Oct last year. H had been acting strange in the months preceding, more distant, angry and just checking out of family things. After a while, I called him on it, said that I was unhappy. He said he didn't realise things were so bad and we agreed to try and reconnect. Things then took a turn for the worse, and a week later, he told me he was really unhappy, didn't know what was wrong, but he didn't think we'd be able to fix it. He kept saying "we can't change". Then came 6 months of hell. He turned into an angry, spiteful creature. During this time we agreed he would move out. He moved out in March. Since moving out he has really focused on the children, telling me frequently that he has worked out what is important. I found out a month ago he has been dating. I am 100% certain there was no OW when he left. I am 80% certain any one he is dating is a distraction only.

His job requires him to be away about 40-50 % of the time and I see him about 5 days a week. If it weren't for the fact that he doesn't live with us, that we don't share a bed, you wouldn't know we weren't together.

H is much kinder now. He is always doing things around the house (he sorted through all the Halloween stuff, re-painted the ceiling on the second floor landing, cleaned my car again and sorted through D12's clothes so they'd be ready to give to D8).

So, what's wrong with this picture ... H still acts like our house is still his home. He invited his niece over without asking. He tells me when he is coming over "I will be there at 8 to walk [the dog] and take D12 to school", when he is there he just does things (kind as they might be) without asking.

I am not sure what is best to do.

On the one hand I am practicing the detach with kindness approach, i.e. treat him like a brother. Care about what is happening about him, but try not to let it effect me. This means that when he asks me to join on family events I say "yes" (if I don't have plans) or "no" (if I do have plans). When he does nice things for me I say "thank you, that was very kind of you". On the other hand, am I enabling his cake eating ?

Journaling

Yesterday was Halloween. H came over around lunch and spent the day decorating the house with D8. His mum and step dad came over with H's niece (7) in the early evening and D12, D8 and H niece all got ready. We all ate dinner together and then D12 and her friends went trick or treating. H and his stepdad took D8 and niece out. I stayed in with MIL and gave candy to the kids who came round. It was a good day/night with laughter and lots of enthusiasm. H did not take his phone out once other than to take photos of the kids and the house.

Contrast this with last year. Halloween H was in the depths of his I hate my W phase. He spent the whole day at the gym (I put the decorations out), came home, criticized the way I'd put the decorations out, yelled at me for moving his gym bag (I didn't - I was too scared to move anything of his back then) and then sat on the sofa like a grumpy [censored]. He only got up to take the kids trick-or-treating.

It was very 'normal'. The normalness of it was a little disconcerting.

I found out something from MIL last night. She said H and her were talking about H's brother and she mentioned that BIL is very depressed. H responded with "mum, so am I". He said that when he is alone in the flat, he really wants to be home with the girls. He said he is lonely. He didn't get to say much more because someone interrupted them. This is the first time he has admitted things aren't all roses. When he left I said to him he might be depressed and he nearly spat in my face.

He has done some other strange things. I had some photos put onto little 10 by 10 inch canvases which I arranged like tiles on one of our walls. When I wasn't home, he insisted his mum go and look at them and said "I can't believe how good they look". He hasn't even mentioned to me that he has noticed them.

He drove me to the station this morning, and as he has the girls tonight and I am out, asked me if I would call the girls. I said of course. Today he sent me a text saying his sister is booking a restaurant for boxing day and would I mind if the girls went. He also made a point of saying that I was welcome too. When I responded on behalf of the girls only, he sent a text back "will you be joining us?". I said I didn't know yet. I mentioned I wasn't feeling very well and would probably be home early. He said I should drop by the flat if it's not too late and say goodnight to the girls.

I know I should have no expectations, and I really don't. I would not be surprised if it turns out that his sudden kindness is driven by guilt. But I cannot help but think that these are positive signs. I will keep detaching and living my life though.

My question is should I be encouraging the contact (without expectations) or should I protect myself and set clearer boundaries. A part of me thinks that I would be setting boundaries purely to 'shock him' into seeing what he is giving up.

I think these are definitely positive signs FS. He is starting to become more aware of his own feelings because you have given him the time and space to do so. Keep doing what you have been doing. No more, no less. I think you have found a pretty good balance of friendly but not too friendly. My H mentioned the other day that his place is getting a bit tired or old... can't remember the exact word he used but it is the first time I have heard him say anything that sounds as if things may not be super duper where he is. But...he still seems happy to go there and hide every day. I am still working on GAL and detaching and feel like you are further ahead in the department than me. And you are in the same boat in terms of how much contact you have. It is tough to detach from someone you see or hear from almost every day. I think you responded to the invite perfectly. Let him sweat it out for awhile. If you go, great, if you don't, guaranteed he will be missing you. Almost makes staying home worth it...lol.

I reread some of my texts that I sent my H in the early days when he was wanting to come home and feeling the weight of everything he had done. His texts implied that he expected I would be wary about having him back and maybe want to protect myself a little bit... he was prepared in the moment to do the work. I cringed when I read my responses. I love you's and WE'LL get through this together, etc... I wish I had known about DBing then because I would have tried to curb the enthusiasm a bit. There is no doubt in my mind that my enthusiasm scared him back into his tunnel again. Even though he was the one reaching out to me, my response was to basically pursue him again. Ugh. So my suggestion to you is that WHEN he starts to put himself out there to reconnect, do NOT jump all over it. Be open to the idea but give him the impression that you are considering it as opposed to grabbing onto it with everything you have. Be cautious and don't give up the gains you have made. I promise that when/if the time comes for me, I will do the same.

As per usual, I think you are doing a fantastic job. Have faith. There are some good signs that your H is starting to question his choices. The less you respond to this, the more he will question. Practice patience and take care of yourself above everything else. (((HUGS)))

Originally Posted by FlySolo

My question is should I be encouraging the contact (without expectations) or should I protect myself and set clearer boundaries. A part of me thinks that I would be setting boundaries purely to 'shock him' into seeing what he is giving up.

I struggle with this too. I still don't know why he would want to do the big Halloween thing with me last night. We DID have fun, and were the neighborhood hit, as usual. Had nice chit chat before and after. I'm trying not to look more into it than he just still finds it fun to do, with or without me. Thanksgiving is coming up. Do I specifically invite, or let him ask about it? Maybe I just need to BE, and not overthink and plan anything. I guess I will know a lot more towards the end of the month when he determines if he will stay out of the house or come back. Still actively GAL though, so I'm content for the time being. Every time I see him though, it takes a few days to stop obsessing about what he's thinking and doing every day.

I will respond more fully later on, but just wanted to say a big thank you for dropping in.

Journaling

I have spent more time with H this week than any other week that I can remember. Last night when I came in he was here. He had spent the day with the girls and was watching them until I got home. He stayed until 7:30 (when he had to go to play football) and then was back again at 8:15 this morning to take us all to netball. Then we watched netball, I left the girls with him whilst I went shopping for last minute party things, we had D8's birthday party, and then went around to his mums for fireworks and present opening. The girls are with him tonight (I've just been dropped off). He is picking me up tomorrow to go to D12's football game and then he is spending the night here so he will be here Monday morning to open presents with D8. This will be the first night since he MO that he will be staying here with me in the house. Monday night we are all going out to dinner for D8's family birthday meal.

D8 had a swimming party and H was present for all of it. He was taking videos on his phone and shouting encouragement from the side of the pool. He was talking to other parents. He was ENJOYING himself. He wasn't even there for D8's birthday party last year (3 weeks after BD). I phoned him twice before the party to remind him to call her and got nothing. I sent him a video of D8 blowing out the candles and got nothing. We opened presents without him that night. This year he was acting like dad of the year.

H continues to act strange. He is super nice to me and then when I disappoint him, he turns. When I said I wasn't going to his mums after D8's birthday, he said I was being unfair to his mum and then told D8 that they would be opening her presents at his mums (i.e. without me). He seemed to be under the impression I was going out as he said he would take our dog as well so she wouldn't be on her own for the evening. He seemed surprised when I said I wasn't going out.

He now makes a big show of telling me things that he has done. Except of course, the things he does that he does not want me to know about - but even this I think is more him being secretive than actually having secrets. I don't know how he fits OW in. He has been with us pretty much every day for over a week.

My life is very strange. If it were not for the fact that we do not share a bed (or a roof) I would swear we were still together.

I would not be surprised if OW is no more and he just doesn�t want to tell you. So maddening to see him enjoying his time with your kids when before he was missing in action. I totally hear you on that one. I am happy for my kids but I seriously want to punch my H. Just keep doing what you are doing FS. I think you are starting to be the one running the show.

Seems like your husband is starting to care more and more. Just keep detaching. I know how it hurts to see them being the perfect dads all of a sudden Just now H is playing ping pong in the basement with the boys and they are having a blast. Before he was always working ....well at least there is something good in it.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

I would not be surprised if OW is no more and he just doesn�t want to tell you.

My MIL thinks the extra kid time this month is because he is going away for a week and feels guilty. He told me he is going to visit his school friend overseas. I only have his word that this is what he is doing. He could be going away with OW for all I know. When we first got together he was with someone else. He had a months training to do in the states, so I went with him the first two weeks. So, it is not beyond reason that he lying to me. I choose not to think about it though.

DJV and Kiwi - yes, it is maddening that he is so affectionate and caring towards the kids. He even spends 5 minutes hugging our dog when he comes in. Everyone but me gets his attention. It [censored] big time. And yes, I frequently want to hit him. But instead I give him a friendly hello, offer him a cup of tea, and pretend none of it bothers me.

Journaling -

Tonight I had planned to go to a comedy club with some girlfriends. I had even arranged for H to babysit tonight. Unfortunately, all my girlfriends are mums, and due to childcare issues, they have all had to bail. So am stuck admitting to H that my friends have bailed or pretending I am still going out and spending a few hours at one of the mums houses, drinking wine and watching sitcoms on TV.

I think I will go with the latter

Also, and this is weird - I mentioned to his mum that I wanted to look at doing further education in psychology (I have a bachelors in psych and maths) because I wanted to do something that helped people. H asked me about it in the car earlier. I said yes, I wanted to do something that was about more than making money. He looked at me, and with all seriousness said "Don't you have to have empathy for that".

I really don't think he knows me at all ...

Journaling

I have just come back from an evening with a girlfriend. There was wine, but no sitcoms. Instead we spent the night chatting. A little about H, a little about politics and a little general gossip. It was a nice relaxed evening. One of the things i am grateful for since BD is the friendships i have made with the mums from my childrens year. Yes, some of them are only after the gossip but it others are genuinely good people. I am pretty sure H thought i was going on a dale ass he gave up all pretense of bring friendly and didnt even look up when I said goodbye.

When I got in H was putting D8 to bed and D12 was still downstairs playing on her phone. I went to have a shower. when I came back down H was turning lights off and said that he was going to sleep. I said goodnight them went back in the MBR to wrap D8s b-day presents. He came to the door and asked what we got her and then said goodnight agai

This is the first time since he MO that we have both slept in the house together. He stays here with the girls if I am away but never when I am here. The first time in 16 years that we have slept under the same roof but not in the same bed. He is in the room next to me and it is all I can do not to go to him. It is very strange. I do not know how we came to be so far apart.

I miss him so much but i know that he is not ready to hear that. I dont know if he will ever be ready.

Those familiar with my sitch will know that my H has been demonstrating increased levels of kindness. I still see the temper flare sometimes, mainly when I do something which shows he is losing control over me, but I also see him trying to keep this in check.

If anything, I am the one who has been more distant, more vague with my responses. I stick to the rules, yes or no answers, keep conversations about kids, no long conversations, always be the first to end conversations.

If he is making a concerted effort to be nice to me then should I be doing the same? I don't mean initiating R conversations, but perhaps treating him more like a friend. So, when he asks how my day has been (though he never asks this), instead of saying "It was good thanks" I might mention that the trains were especially bad, or when he invites me to something, sending him a text after to say "Thank you, I had a really nice time", instead of telling him "I am going out", I say "I am going to dinner with X" (where X is probably a female friend).

Would this come across as pursuing or politeness?

Hello FlySolo

Our paths have crossed and I was touched with your sharing that my writing has inspired you.

We seldom realize how are actions affect others, directly or indirectly, there is limited feedback within our society. I am grateful to you for letting me know my effect.

I also want you to know, your words had an affect on me. We can all use some positive feedback, some appreciation, lord knows we aren�t getting any from our spouses.

The path each of us has been force upon is long, and we all have a long way to go. I believe that is a good thing. If the path were to end, or we stopped walking it, we stop growing, we cease the betterment of ourselves.

Keep walking your path.

Thank you FS.

DnJ

DnJ - I wish you luck on your journey, but I do not think you will need it. You seem to be (or have been for a while) in a place where you have accepted whatever destiny has in store for you, and you are accepting it with love, dignity and grace. I read the madness of your W and think to myself how have you endured all that and still show such love for your W. The lighthouse story was written for you.

Journaling

H just dropped me off after D8's family birthday dinner. I knew it was going to be a bad night when he came to pick me up and I was on the phone. He knew it was a work call (they almost always are) and he hates me taking them.

It then went from bad to worse ...

When we got to the restaurant, his mum and step dad where already there. Conversation quickly turned to BIL and his now exGF. H and MIL both had an opinion - exGF is probably seeing someone at the gym, she shouldn't be a member of the gym if she can't afford basic necessities blah blah blah. When I tried to say it is for them to work out, he scowled at me again. I guess I wasn't showing the requisite amount of loyalty to the family.

Next topic was one of the dad's of the children in D8's year who has been arrested for supplying drugs. I said we should probably not be talking about this in front of the children, but H scowled at me, said it's in the local paper so they are going to find out anyway, and then showed a newspaper clipping on his phone to D12. I said to D12 not to say anything to D8 (who was happily colouring something in on her placemat). He again scowled at me.

When the bill came H and I decided to split it. He said he would pay on his card and I could pay him back. Whilst he was paying the bill I transferred the money on my phone. He said he was just going to include it to the stuff we had decided to split this month, and why was I being so difficult. I wasn't - it was just as easy to do then.

Finally, he asked if I wanted the children to stay with me tonight as he had watched them for me last night (he originally had them scheduled to stay with him tonight). I said I didn't mind, but thought as he is going away for a week Wednesday, he might want to have them instead. He scowled and said "fine, we will keep it as ORIGINALLY planned".

I am not sure where all the anger came from tonight. I suspect its him feeling he is losing control (normally I would have not been so blatant about the work call, or been so dismissive about his anger bursts) or it could be that he is going away for a week and realises that he is going to miss the kids. I have been very blas� about him going away, so maybe he was expecting me to be more resistant? Mind reading, but interesting none the less.

Thankfully, most of this went over D12's and D8's heads and D8 seemed to have a good time. They both gave me massive hugs when they left and i told them both to have fun at daddy's and be good.

You sure are doing well FS. I know that there are still moments for you and you are far from happy with everything but I envy how well you have been sticking to the rules. My goal this week is to take a page from your book and really step away from the non-essential communication. I have been too much his friend lately and I need to get back to being more of a business partner. It is hard but since that talk with my SD yesterday, I know it is necessary. I think I am just gong to try to act as if the D has already happened and carry on with my life as if it has. I think that will help. I have a five-day pool tournament next week that I am really excited about so that will help. And my twin is back home tomorrow night...another big help. I will go hang out with her on Wednesday for sure and let H have some time with the kids.

My view of your H. He�s starting to realize life without you is not as picture perfect as he thought it would be and he is grumpy about it. Especially since you seem so unphased by it - particularly when he seems mad. Good for you!! I think Christmas will be an interesting time for you.

You are setting a good example, FS.I too need to act more matter of factly and less friendly. I will read the rules again now.
Just wondering maybe his anger was unrelated to you after all: a bad day at work, conflicts with someone else. It is just mindreading and does not lead anywhere. Still it is hard to stop. But you reacted perfectly and luckily H can not read your thoughts either, he just sees you acting as a strong and happy woman.

Thank you both. Though it doesn't feel like I am doing well and it doesn't seem like he is any closer to wanting to R. The bursts of temper last night is I something new and reminds me of the months leading to BD. I agree, I don't think OW is in the picture anymore (though I don't really know this) and that his return to being 'angry' at me is partly because he no longer feels guilty. I think he also feels that my GAL'g is taking away from the children.

Cadet and the other vets are not wrong when they say this approach is counterintuitive. All I can see is a confused man who loves his family very much, may still love his wife, but can't seem to take that step. I don't know if anything I am doing is bringing him closer to taking that step. Sometimes it feels like I am driving him further away. When I was telling his mum last night about some of my GAL'g activities (Yoga and my upcoming comedy improv course), he took his phone out and started to scroll - these were the only two times during the night he was not present.

I keep wanting to see grand gestures like in the movies, but have to remind myself ... marathon not sprint ...

I have had two moments of weakness ...

I said in an offhand way yesterday morning that I had been out with one of the mums the night before. I could sense how suspicious he was (he wouldn't look at me, didn't ask any questions) and he is going away in 2 days for a weeks holiday and I was worried that thinking I had been with a man would make him more likely to stray again.

I sent him a text (a reply to one of his texts) asking him to say thank you to his mum for having us around bonfire night and that the kids and I had had a nice time.

Well, first improv lesson today and I had to miss it. My fault entirely. I thought i had arranged for our nanny to stay a few extra hours tonight but got the dates mixed up. Really annoyed with myself.

Normal stuff otherwise. Work, gym, home. I have to pick up D12 and D8 from football training soon so have an hour to myself. Life goes on and H only interrupts my thoughts in the quiet moments.

I saw him this morning. He picked us up this morning (me to the station, the girls to school). I mentioned that I was out tonight and he said "but aren't you out Friday". I said no, I haven't got plans for Friday and tonight is my firs improv lesson. Not sure why I explained myself. I think I was just caught off guard.

D12 was in a bit of a grump when she got out of the car. It was raining a little, and H asked her if she wanted to borrow his umbrella. She said no. He repeated the question. She said no again then got out of the car, and stomped off. This was normal pre-teen angst and not us related. When she got out H said "she is so stubborn". I replied that she gets that from us. He didn't say anything.

I won't see him now until next Wednesday or Thursday. He is off on a weeks holiday. He did this same trip last year about 2 weeks after BD and 2 days after my birthday. Remembering that time, I was such a mess. I couldn't believe he would go away after the two weeks we had just had. He slept in the den that night and in the morning I went and lay with him. I needed to know he still loved me. He told me he did, but then he went away anyway. I couldn't go to work for two days. Today, I simply said "Have a great holiday", got out of the car, and he drove off. All smiles and happy faces. Just two friends wishing each other well ... all these things left unsaid.

I do not expect to hear from him the next week. He will call the girls, but generally only talks to me if there is some logistical thing to discuss .. sometimes when the logistics is done, we might have a normal non-logistical chat (trains, family gossip) but if there isn't a reason to talk to me in the first place, he normally just hangs up.

I will say that compared to last year, I have come on quite a bit. I am nearly a fully functional human being.

Question ...

In march someone bashed into the front of the house with their car. it wasn't major damage, more like turning in our driveway and reversing too far and hitting the wall. At the time we thought it was our au pair but could not prove it. I bought the camera as a kind of deterrent - she was also bringing 'friends' back when we weren't there. Well she left a few weeks later and I never bother to put the camera up as there was no reason. About six weeks ago I came home to find the camera installed. He said it was for insurance purposes - which might be true as our house insurance was up for renewal about the same time.

H has it connected to his phone (as do I). I know he checks it because sometimes the cleaner unplugs it when she is doing the floors and he has spoken to me about asking her not to. He has even put a sticker on the plug saying 'DO NOT UNPLUG'. It is also linked to our temperature control app provided by our electricity provided. The bill is in his name, so I am not even sure if he can be removed from the app (the app is registered to the bill payer).

I could speak to him about unplugging it but I expect I will be called ridiculous, difficult and awkward a few times followed by him storming off and me feeling like a bag of [censored].

Thoughts - should I just unplug it? Should I live with it? Should i brave the conversation?

Journalling

Stayed in with D12 yesterday as she was ill from school. Sent an email to the school advising them and cc'd H. He emailed me back mid-day to see if she was OK. I was having a facial at them time (D12 is OK to leave for an hour or so) so didn't respond. When I got back was busy so forgot. He called in the evening and after speaking to the girls, asked to speak to me. He asked if D12 was OK. I said, yes, she has tummy ache (as per the email). D12 gets tummy aches a lot and I have always suspected it has to do with anxiety. H has always blown it off thinking it was some sort of ruse to make him feel guilty. This time he seemed really concerned and even asked me to let him know if it gets any worse. I said sure, but played it down and we quickly got off the phone.

When he called he would have just got to his friends house. It would be the first day of his holiday. He did not mention it to the kids when he spoke to them, nor to me when I spoke to him, I do not even think he has told the kids he is on holidays. I did not ask him how the flight went or how is friend is (his friend is an old male school friend). I wonder if it would be better if I said something like "How is X? Are you having a nice time?". Would that come across as friendly but detached or pursuit?

Nothing else much. Life with an ill child makes GAL difficult.

I have bought some more of the picture tiles, this time with a few of H in it. They arrived yesterday and I will put them up in the den with the other picture tiles. I am going to show him that his leaving no longer has the emotional impact it once did and I am now Ok with having pictures of him up in the house, well in the den, which is really the children's TV room.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

H has it connected to his phone (as do I). I know he checks it because sometimes the cleaner unplugs it when she is doing the floors and he has spoken to me about asking her not to. He has even put a sticker on the plug saying 'DO NOT UNPLUG'. It is also linked to our temperature control app provided by our electricity provided. The bill is in his name, so I am not even sure if he can be removed from the app (the app is registered to the bill payer).

I could speak to him about unplugging it but I expect I will be called ridiculous, difficult and awkward a few times followed by him storming off and me feeling like a bag of [censored].

Thoughts - should I just unplug it? Should I live with it? Should i brave the conversation?

Ummmm, that is creepy AF. First, I highly doubt it's needed for insurance purposes. They give discounts for a "security system" but it would be highly unusual that they specify it must have cameras. You might call and check with them about that. Second, that is creepy AF. Third, even if it is required, who said HE needs access to it? Fourth, did I say that is creepy AF. Fifth (or maybe first), unplug it and if he gripes about it tell him to go pound sand. He chose to end the M, he doesn't get to spy on you like some creepy stalker.

Incidentally, the fact that he put it up without asking you or saying anything at all about it just amps up the creepy factor. Dude has some b@lls.

AS - yes - when I read the above, it is extremely creepy. Control and suspicion has always been his thing. I never minded much because I am pretty chilled out most of the time. Plus, I've never had anything to hide. Looking back at some of the things he said to me when he was in his rewriting phase, it is obvious he still doubted me "that guy from work phoned you that one time four years ago".

I finally set the app up on my phone today - he can see everyone that comes in and out of the house !!! It has been unplugged before (the cleaner) and he plugs it straight back in when he comes over. I will take your advice AS, and unplug it. He is away at the moment so for the next 4 days he won't be able to spy on me (assuming that he does). It will drive him nuts.

I was reading on another thread advice to an LBS to buy sexy underwear. Funnily enough, last weekend I was in town and walked past an underwear shop which happened to have a sale on. This particular shop is famous for ... ahem ... women's electrical gadgets. But they also do nice underwear, which is what I bought. I then walked to H's flat, which is where I had left the car (he was watching the kids for me whilst I ran some errands in town). When I got there he asked if I wanted a cup of tea. I said yes, put my shopping bags down by the door, and then sat on the sofa. None of this was intentional. The shop was on sale and I made an impulse purchase. I didn't even think it was weird until I got to his flat. I tried to hide the bag under another shopping bag, but the bag was very big and very pink, and very obviously from THAT shop. He didn't say anything, but am sure he definitely saw it. I wonder if it got his mind racing. Probably. I have a naturally athletic build but my GAL activity of choice (yoga and pilates) combined with the MLC diet, means I now look pretty [censored] awesome ... and he knows it.

I would definitely unplug the camera FS. He may have set it up originally for safety reasons but now I think it is just to spy on you. You should invite random people over just for fun...lol. Have a get together with your colleagues and let him try to figure out which one you might be attracted to...

Camera now �offline�. Got confirmation via app notification almost immediately. Which means if he has notifications switched on he would have been notified immediately too ... though he swirches all his notifications off in case people look at his phone so prob won�t notice until he goes on the app.

D8 has been D9 for a week and forgot to update signature. Will do so now.

FS, now get the sexy underwear

Cheers neffer. PS - already done.

When we first got together I use to wear nice stuff and he use to buy me really high end sets for b-days and xmas. Over the years I became more practical - washing and sorting just ended up being too much trouble. Lace gradually made way for practical breathable cotton - bras became practical (read: easy to wash). About a year before BD I started buying and wearing nice stuff again. My clothes started getting a bit tighter as well. My kids were getting bigger and less demanding and I could be FS again and not just mummy. A part of me wanted him to start looking at me the way he use to. I never said anything to him, just bought and wore the stuff.

It seemed he didn't take a blind bit of notice of changes. Or maybe he did notice (he would sit on the bed scrolling through his phone whilst I got dressed in the morning).

... that jealousy thing keeps cropping up in my head ... why didn't I see it ?!?!?

Journaling

It was just D12 and I today. MIL took D9 (I can't believe she's 9 now !!) to see a show. D12 wasn't feeling well (still has tummy ache) so I said she could stay with me. We chilled out at home, then went into town for lunch. She had her first eye brow threading (she held the arms of that chair for dear life, but did not once say stop) and somehow managed to also sweet talk me into buying her some new clothes. `Whilst we were out BIL called and asked if I would take his daughter for the night as he and his (no longer ex) GF are going out for dinner and spending the night in a hotel.

I agreed, but maybe because he caught me off guard. 5 days ago they couldn't stand each other - they have had an on off relationship for years and he has been back and forth between their house and his dads many many times. Strangely, pre BD, H and I had had a handful of arguments in our 15 years, and never one that led to him moving out. I married the proud stubborn brother.

MIL brought D9 over in the late afternoon and stayed for a cup of tea. She took D9 and BIL's daughter to a Little Mix tribute show. Apparently they were both singing and dancing in the isles. We talked about D12 for a bit. MIL thinks the tummy pain is anxiety because H has gone on holidays again. I validated, but didn't agree. Though I do agree with her, I have learned to keep my own counsel. We talked about BIL and maybe exGF (again validated, but did not agree). Then she said sometimes when she is talking to H, he still talks like we are are still together and that she found this strange. He never speaks badly of me. She mentioned again that last time she was here he was insistent that she come have a look at the photos I put up in the den (12 10 x10inch photo canvases) of the girls and I. He told her how great they looked. Apparently he stood there for ages just looking at them. He has not once mentioned to me that he has even noticed them. There as also a few on my desk waiting to be put up. Photos I took on holidays on my own whenever H takes the girls away (landscapes, interesting buildings, trees, flowers) which I intend to put up in the MBR. He said how great these were too and he told her about a photography course I am taking. It sounded like he was proud of me. It is strange he has these conversations about me with his mum but not with me. Highlights how far apart we are and just how much is left unsaid between us.

He called the girls the last two days but called on D12's phone so I didn't talk to him. I didn't mind too much (the first time I was mucking about on the piano and the second time I was upstairs sorting my wardrobe). I did think, why is he calling D12's phone - he always calls on the home phone. Then realised he is somewhere a phone call would cost a fortune so he is probably face timing her to save money.

That is the same as my sitch. My sister and BIL argue ALL of the time. It is bickering really. She says he has threatened divorce a number of times and she just says �okay�. They are never really serious. My H and I, on the other hand, rarely argued. Once in a while but never more than minor irritations. I know now it is because he was just adding whatever resentments he had to the pile until he felt like he had enough justification to abandon me and our kids. He would say he didn�t do that but it is why they are adjusting pretty well to this situation. They are not used to him being around. I am sad about that. Sad for them. Sad for him. Sad for us. But...what can you do? It is what it is.

It is a good sign that your H never speaks badly of you. He still has a lot of respect for you. If he could get over his stubbornness and pride, maybe just maybe this story could have a happy ending. I don�t have too much hope for mine, truth be told. My H left me emotionally years ago. He just wasn�t honest about it so for me this is only a couple months old. For him it has been years. Anyway... I still think you are doing everything right FS. One way or another, there are sunnier skies ahead for you. Stay the course.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

My H and I, on the other hand, rarely argued. Once in a while but never more than minor irritations. I know now it is because he was just adding whatever resentments he had to the pile until he felt like he had enough justification to abandon me and our kids.

I suspect this is because all four of us (you, me, and our H's) are conflict avoidant. BIL and (maybe ex)GF are both confrontational. I am not saying this is the way to go. All that constant screaming and throwing things at each other means their daughter thinks the way to get what you want is to be the loudest in the room.

I am sad for our children as well. But they have good parents. Irrespective of what you think of your H he is trying to be a good dad. Maybe a [censored] of a H and human being. But, he is trying to be a good day. Some of the S's here, man, I just want to beat the [censored] out of them for the way they treat their kids.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

It is a good sign that your H never speaks badly of you. He still has a lot of respect for you.

He says these things to other people. Never to me. That would be 'giving me hope'. God I hate that phrase. He use to say it all the time as his reason for never being nice to me. I don't know what it means (the showing respect for me). I guess he sees me as a human being and not just the 'ruiner of his life'. Happy ending - I am not sure. It does not feel the way. It feels like we are moving towards being successful co-parents.

I also think we are kindred spirits. I am glad we found each other. I think I hold out more hope for your R than you do. Keep going. It is over when you give up hope.

------------------

Journaling

BIL came over this morning to pick up his daughter. He stayed for a few hours and said they had a nice night (I did not ask details). Not back together, but seeing how it goes. I am almost jealous that they can find it so easy to move towards R when H and I can't even talk. We spoke about H for a bit. He thinks the jealousy is more general (he doesn't like the idea of anyone else being with me - apparently it is a [censored] thing). Not sure that he would be jealous of another man unless a little bit of him still cared about me.

After BIL left, I took D9 to a birthday party and then hung out with D12 for a bit and got on with some housework. GAL'g with kids is tough when the weather is so miserable.

I put up the new picture tiles. Of the 30 tiles I have put up 5 of them have H in them. This is my way of saying that I can now look at photos of him without getting emotional. He was hurt when I took all the photos down and I explained to him at the time that it was because looking at them hurt me. I am however, worried, that he will take this a form of pursuit.

He called twice today (once this morning to wish D12 well on her football game and once this evening). I did not talk to him either time. I think I mentioned he did this same trip last year 2 weeks after BD. That time he called twice in total. Once, when he was obviously very drunk, and once in the middle of the day when we were out. This time he has called every night and twice today. Consistent actions show that he is a changed man. His children are important to him. Me - I seem to be less and less important. I know you all say I am doing well, but it does not feel that way.

This is the hardest and most painful thing I have ever done. It would be so much easier to just throw in the towel and open myself up to the possibility of another relationship. But I know I won't. Not today anyway.

Ahh... FS. I can so feel your emotions through your writing and I identify with them so much. I think, perhaps, that I have more hope for your sitch than you do as well. My H just dropped off the kids and stuck around for a bit to chat. He was noticeably tired. He says he didn�t sleep well and he kept waking himself up. I don�t know if that is the truth or not. I guess that should be a sign to me that I don�t know if he is telling the truth about something so simple. I have been reading some of BluWave�s threads and she talks of choosing to trust her H as being different than simply trusting him. Made me think of what it would be like if, against all odds, we got back together and how I would have to make that choice every day as only a fool would do anything different.

I think it is great that your H is staying in contact so much while he is away. It does show that he is making some changes. Don�t assume that the changes are only what you can see. I sincerely doubt he would talk to you about what is going on for him because of the hope aspect. I think my H would have to be 85% sure he wanted to return before he would ever bring it up to me. Even though his actions say different, I know that he does not consciously want to hurt me and also does not want to give me hope. I am trying to mentally prepare myself for the D talk although knowing my H, he could end up just emailing it to me. He really does not like confrontation in any way, shape or form. If he does, I really do hope he waits until after the holidays.

I wouldn�t put too much stock into what BIL says. He only seems to know the obvious (H is jealous) and likely does not know what is really going on with your H. He is just guessing based on his own views.

I don�t think having pictures of your H can be viewed as pursuit. If anything, given the context, it would seem more like a sign that you are moving on. Not a bad thing.

Sending you lots of (((HUGS))).

DjV - it so seems we are living parallel lives ...

I find the pretense the hardest bit. I want to scream all the time. "Come back you idiot. What we had was good". But I can't. I no longer have to pretend to be ok because I actually am. But pretending not to care is exhausting.

I have not spoken to him for five days. It is tough sitting in another room whilst he talks to the girls. I have no expectations that he wants to talk to me, but it is still very strange. D12 always puts him on speaker phone. Not sure why she does this, but she does. I can hear the entire conversation. He repeatedly says how much he is missing them and how much he loves them. It is very weird, a conversation you can hear, but are obviously not a part of. He took about 2 minutes to say goodbye "I miss you lots and lots and lots and lots blah blah blah".

It is strange that he hasn't asked to talk to me at all in the last five days. He normally likes to pretend that everything is normal (i.e. he can talk to me without feeling anything) so that he hasn't talked to me at all is kind of weird.

Having said that, I did send him a text asking how much D12's school excursion was as we had agreed to split it. I thought it would be three texts tops ("how much", "this much", "ok") but he kept the exchange going. He kept asking about D12's tummy aches. This went back and forth for a bit. I kept my responses short (I don't know, maybe). Eventually he ended the exchange with "Can't help but worry, she is still our little girl <sad face emoji>".

BTW - this is why I hate [censored] emojis.

I need to put my reaction into context. D12 has had reoccurring tummy aches since H announced he was leaving. Every time I mentioned it he would give me a snarl and say "It is normal pre-teen" stuff. Eventually, and only after his mum said there is something wrong, he agreed she should see a counsellor. I found one. The counsellor wanted to see H and I first. He sat there and said she was fine and that the only one with a problem was me. So, now that he is seemingly concerned about her welfare, it gets my back up a little. So, perhaps I did go a little cold.

GAL activities - I went to lunch with a guy I use to work with about 8 years ago. We ran into each other a few months ago and did the 'we should catch up' thing. I had to contact him about a work related thing and he said it would cost me lunch. I agreed. There was nothing in it, we talked work a little and about people we both know. It was pleasant conversation and nice company. I did not mention that H ad I had split up. Back in the day he use to fancy me a little, and I suspect still does. I am still not ready, but it did me good to have someone flirt with me a little. I probably won't see him again for another 8 years now.

No gym today - being a single mum means I am running to work, running from work and constantly late for everything !!!

FS... you are my inspiration and as much as I hurt that you are on this board and going through this as well, I am truly, truly grateful for your honesty and support. I think the distinction you made between being ok and yet still caring (being sad sometimes) is an important one. The idea that we can be okay but still be sad and that one does not negate the other. Like you, I do know that, deep down, I will be okay regardless of what my H does. I know that I am doing the work. I am pretty sure he is not (his work is all about convincing himself he is doing the right thing and not about looking in the mirror) but, that will be to his detriment, not mine. My life will be more authentic, meaningful and satisfying in the end. Of that, I am sure. I am sure yours will be as well.

I think that is great you had lunch with your old co-worker. I have no doubt he fancies you. Who, in their right mind,wouldn�t? [Your H is exempt from that question...clearly he is not in his right mind]. Of course you are not ready. You are a genuine, honourable person who knows herself. And you care too much about other people to make them a part of the circus. One day, if you H is stupid enough to not return, you will venture out there again and there will be many men who value and appreciate that fantastic woman that you are. But until then...

(((HUGS)))

P.S. I know what you mean about getting your back up over H�s sudden concern. My H basically ignored our kids for the better part of four years and now he thinks he is in the running for father of the year. I figured out that is why I wanted to punch him at our parent-teacher meeting. I should have.

Advice please ...

My H works a 24/7 roster. It means that childcare changes from month to month depending on when he is working. He has some control over this, i.e. there is a particular day or night he wants off, he can normally swap shifts, but he is at the mercy of a computer which allocates his shifts. Mostly I am accommodating because I know that he can't control it too much. It does annoy me that he gets to look through it first, then decide which days he doesn't want the kids, and then I get whatever is left.

For some reason there was a big break in his Nov roster (maybe planned, maybe not). So he decided to go away for a week. He told me by way of the monthly childcare schedule he gives me. It looked like this:

Thurs 8 - Away
Fri 9 - Away
Sat 10 - Away
Sun 11 - Away
Mon 12 - Away
Tue 13 - Away
Wed 14 - Away ? (the question mark means that he is going to try for a flight back but depends on seats)
Thurs 15 - Collect girls after school and overnight
Fri 16 - Take girls to school, collect and overnight

Away means flying, but sometimes might mean he wants to go out. I have stopped worrying about what he is actually doing. As there was seven of them in a row (normally 2-3 days tops) it looked odd, so he had to admit that he was going away.

I sent him a text this morning saying I had parked at the flat in case he decided to come home early. If he did, I would move the car.

I got a text back off him saying "Nope - coming home Thursday. Flight looks full so can you get N (our nanny) to look after the girls". I replied "No - she has the day off and I can't WFH that day as am running a workshop until 5:30. Can you ask your mum please", well, apparently she is going on holidays tomorrow and can't do it. Turns out he decided to go to Kula Lumper for two days and that's why he is stuck and can't get home.

I stayed home thurs and fri due to D12's tummy aches, and then had to do a half day yesterday to be home in time to pick up D9. It is my job that keeps a roof over mine and our children's heads.

Yes, they are my girls too and of course, if push came to shove, I would make sure they were looked after, but, just the sheer arrogance of thinking he can extend his holiday by two days and that everyone else would pick up the slack.

Am I being unreasonable refusing to budge. Should I back down and say, I will see if I can sort it out.

I thought he was changing, but maybe not.

I don�t think you are being unreasonable but only you can decide if you want this to be your hill to die on, so to speak. It is arrogance, no doubt. And just plain inconsideration. Our H�s are used to being taken care of so they just assume we will accommodate their requests. The problem is that we also have kids who need to be looked after and can�t get dragged into the conflicts. It seems to me you don�t have a choice but to figure something out since he isn�t there. But...I would have a conversation with him about advance notice and sticking to the schedule unless it is absolutely unavoidable rather than changing it on a whim. It is disrespectful to just assume you will change your schedule to accommodate his.

Selfishness was always an issue in our relationship. Over the years I had just learned to absorb it. But the year before BD, it escalated to the point that we hardly ever saw him. He was either working, or going out. He just assumed I'd look after the children, so never bothered asking or telling me. That, and the fact that he was always so angry led me to ask him about two weeks before BD, if we were still ok. He seemed shocked, and after I told him how hurt I was by the constant criticism and the absences, he said "I didn't know" and promised to do better. Well, it was only me who tried. Every time I touched him he recoiled. Every time I spoke he pulled a face. I lay out what I wanted that night: be more considerate, be more present, and contribute more financially.

I thought he was getting there on the first two requests (in so far as the children) but this has caused me to take a step back. Yesterday he was texting me about how worried he was about D12 and today I find out that not only has he extended his holiday by two days, he is also decided to take a detour to Malaysia (he is supposed to be in Dubai) for those two days. None of his story adds up now.

Do I want this to be the hill I die on. No, of course not. But I need to set boundaries and they need to have consequences. He can't give me a schedule and then expect me to drop everything because he is in a bind (of his own making). He would have known on Sunday that he was going to be delayed yet he waits until today, and only because I sent him a text asking if I could park at his flat. He wasn't going to mention it until tomorrow. He is going to ask his sister and she is going to say no. He is then going to ask me again, and I will say no. His options are to beg me to sort it out (i.e. see if I can arrange for one of the other mums to have them) or he will need to pay for a commercial ticket like everyone else.

Advance notice is not my H's thing. We have a schedule, but he thinks nothing of changing it at the last minute and expecting me or his mum to pick up the slack. When I need to change something, I ask, and if he can't do it, I sort something else out. It is about time he did too. If/when we get a formal separation order where he has the kids 50% of the time he will have to book these last minute solo holidays on his weeks without the kids or work out childcare arrangements for them like every other single parent.

Yes, I am a little [censored] off at the moment. But I still think I am in the right on this.

And yes, I will end up sorting it out.

Update - his sister has agreed to mind the girls for him Thursday. He did not have the courage to tell me so asked the girls to relay the information when he was on the call with them. Whilst he was on the phone, D9 piped up that she had netball after school Thursday and D12 (who is at a different school) so Thursday's school run will not be as easy as normal (and it isn't that easy in the first place)/

I am sure I have been made to be the bad guy in all of this.

I feel like giving up today.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

I feel like giving up today.

Take feeling out of it and look at it rationally and logically. We rarely make good decisions based on emotion. Giving up is a big step. If you pull the trigger, will that feeling last? What if tomorrow you feel like not giving up?

Take time and just breathe. Relax. Take some time. Think about what you WANT not what you FEEL. And yes, they are different.

I feel that way too today FS. I'm at work today...trying to concentrate on the things I need to but find myself on here while everyone else is eating pizza in our boardroom (I don't do carbs). Today I am just sad and tired and feeling very "woe is me", "I didn't deserve this." My H told me yesterday that he is "trying to be the best person he can be" currently. That is the way with him... he is always trying, never actually doing. That statement to me is laughable. In other words, I will just cut out anything in my life that makes me feel bad about myself (i.e. you DV6) and keep the things that make me feel good and then I will be a good person. Uh...no...wrong... that is a short cut... how about taking a hard look in the mirror and start to take some responsibility for your choices. Make some REAL changes. Man, there is a part of me that just wants to go OFF on him. But no...I smile, I nod, I choose my words VERY carefully.

I am so wanting to let him go. I mean, it would be such a relief to just not think about any of this or at least have no sadness when I do. But GAL is a step-by-step process and I find that I take one forward and then one back. And sometimes, in the moment, I feel like I am taking one forward (like in my discussion with my H) but then, later on, in reflection, I realize it was actually a step backward. So frustrating...and exhausting...and painful.

Originally Posted by Steve85

I know. It just feels like he constantly disappoints me (a statement in itself which is full of expectations). I had really thought he was putting the children first. I was fine with him going away, with not knowing if he was lying about where he was ... all of that I had accepted.

But then he goes and extends his holiday without telling anyone. Not only that he decides to extend it because he wants to take a two day detour TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD. No consideration for childcare or the girls.

He did this all through our M. He would say he was only going out for a couple of drinks and be home at 3 (when the clubs/bars closed). He would say he was going away for a long weekend (say a stag do) but on the week of the stag do it would turn out he was leaving Thurs morning and coming back Wednesday. He would rather say sorry (not that he ever said sorry, would just sneak in pretending nothing happened) than ask permission. I know, everyone is thinking OW. But no, my H just liked 'being one of the lads'.

I am not going to do anything drastic. Just double down on my detachment efforts. Maybe not be so accommodating. I am thinking of booking a skiing trip in Feb. I have already spoken to MIL about it and she said she would watch the kids (we won't know what H is doing until he gets his roster in Jan).

What do I want. I want to not feel like this. But I know I am in a spin because I have a) caught him in another one of his orchestrated lies and b) he expects everyone to jump through hoops for him. I probably won't see him till the weekend now so will have time to reflect before I see him.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

My H told me yesterday that he is "trying to be the best person he can be" currently. That is the way with him... he is always trying, never actually doing. That statement to me is laughable. In other words, I will just cut out anything in my life that makes me feel bad about myself (i.e. you DV6) and keep the things that make me feel good and then I will be a good person.

I am a little envious that your H talks about his feelings. But I can see how it comes across as a little heartless.

I was speaking to someone today and they said that R is more likely when there is a PA because it is passion that makes the S leave and that kind of passion cannot be sustained. When they leave for no apparent reason then there was an emotional void in the relationship. Because there is no 'tangible' reason then it takes real courage to leave. Once they've left, then they don't know if they will ever have the courage again. Not sure how much I agree, but it made sense at the time.

Funny you should mention that FS...what your friend said. I was actually just thinking about that yesterday. Wondering if it was more likely a spouse would come back if they had an affair versus if they just left because they weren't feeling anything. I am not sure how to think of my sitch because of how long my H was lying to me. Even when he was "back" for those eight months in between fake hospital trips, he wasn't with me emotionally. At least I don't think he was. It is so hard to say. I look back on the things that we did in those eight months and there were definitely happy times. As I mentioned before, my H even came to watch me play pool at my tournament which he NEVER does. I didn't ask him to, he just showed up. Would he have done that if he was so out of love with me as he claims to have been all this time? I don't know...it is confusing. I wonder if he really is too far gone into this life of his. He seems pretty pleased with his efforts as a dad... yep, I guess having a dad 30% of the time is better than 10%. I asked him yesterday how he thinks it feels for our kids to go to his place and see a room with some other kid's stuff in it. He just looked at me blankly...like he never even thought about it.

I am with you on the doubling down on DBing. I know that I backslide a lot but I really feel like that despite that, I am inching closer and closer to the goal line. There are just an awful lot of linebackers trying to get in my way and when they hit me, they hit me HARD. Not sure why I threw in a football (not soccer) analogy as I am more of a hockey fan...lol. Anyway... for the next five days I resolve to send my H ZERO text messages. None. He has the kdis so I am OUT. I know that I have not been DBing well enough in that regard. I am too chatty. Too friendly. I really, really need to get a grip on that. Da*n cell phones!!! We would not have had this problem 25 years ago. I have no problem not phoning people but texting is just too darn easy and to easy to do impulsively. I actually just did something quite proactive. I deleted my H from my contacts so that when I go into my text messages, I don't see his name...just his number. I also don't see his picture. I don't know why but it feels like it is going to help me step back from him. Only my very-distant acquaintances and random businesses show up as numbers. May help, may not but I feel good about it. It feels like I have done something positive.

Anyway...coffee break over. Time to meet with another depressed and anxious teen. I sure wish that I worked at Starbucks right now.

Advice needed ...

Slight change of tone. I've mentioned in the past D12's reoccurring tummy ache and my belief that this is linked to the separation. H has poo poo'd this in the past putting it down to just 'normal teen stuff'. Whilst he has been away D12 has had 2 days off school due to tummy ache, has slept in bed with me pretty much every night (v. unusual for her as she is not a cuddly child and likes to assert her independence) and has been very teary. I've tried to handle it as best I can but this morning was tough.

I normally wake up before them, out D9's clothes on her chair, sort out their breakfast (juice and toast) and then wake them up about 40 minutes before we have to go. They then sort themselves out, I get ready and every now and then remind them of things they need to do ("have you brushed your teeth?", "can you put your phone down and put your shoes on?").

This morning D12 came into my room upset whilst I was getting ready. She could not put a pony tail in her hair. I had just got out of the shower so probably wasn't as attentive as I should have been but I did try. D12 wanted to do it herself so I said "show me what you're doing". I gave her some advice, watched her try two or three times, then frustrated, I said "here i'll do it" (time is a premium in the morning and we don't really have time to waste). She wanted a 'perfect' ponytail, that is, one without bumps (pretty impossible as she has wavy hair). She wouldn't let me help and stormed out "Don't worry - I'LL DO IT". I finished getting ready then went downstairs. They get their coats on whilst I get the lunches out of the fridge, put the breakfast stuff in the dishwasher etc and then out the door. D12 was in the downstairs bathroom still trying to do her. We should have left 5 minutes ago and she was still only half dressed, had not brushed her teeth and had not yet sorted her football kit. I lost my temper and told her she was being ridiculous and it was only hair. She broke down in tears, sat on the bathroom floor, said she wasn't going to school unless the pony tail was right, said she couldn't do it ("I can't do anything right"). I watched her on the floor crying. My baby in tears because she can't do the perfect pony tail. I didn't know what to say so I simply said "Don't be ridiculous, no-one cares if there are bumps in your ponytail". I admit I didn't handle it very well but was stressed out as we were not all late.

Should I mention it to H? the last time we discussed counselling for her it was a disaster. He seemed to say that I blew it all out of proportion, or that I had caused it by 'not being happy enough'. At time, every time we mentioned speakign to someone to D12, she would go into hysterics and cry and beg us "to not make me go".

What should I do?

I am so sorry your daughter is hurting. As a mother, I know it must be breaking your heart. It seems to me your daughter may believe that if you want her to see a counselor, than she must be at fault or need fixing. Do you need permission from your H for counseling? Seems to me a family counselor (one credentialed as such) would be more appropriate. After all, this is a family situation, not an individual problem. If your H won't go, then you go with all the kids.

At this point they just need reassurance they are loved just the same no matter what is happening with mom and dad. When you see her later, I would have a one-on-one talk with her about what happened this morning, and maybe help her work on that ponytail to see how you can help her make it perfect for tomorrow.

Hugs.

Great advice Grace. I don�t think you need to ask H�s permission... just do it. Kids don�t want to talk to you about their feelings when it comes to these kinds of situations because they don�t want to cause you any further upset than you are already dealing with. Does the school have a Counsellor? My daughter met with her school counsellor and she enjoyed the experience - felt much better afterwards. Also...if you do go to a private counsellor, you don�t need to tell your daughter that you are going to talk about anything specific... maybe just to talk about her stomach aches. Her obsession with getting her pony tail just right is likely an anxiety response to not feeling in control of the things going on in her life. Also, I don�t know what is available in your community FS but where I live, there is a community program that runs groups for children who are going through a separation or divorce. Maybe do an online search? Most communities have something along those lines that they offer kids since divorce seems to be a bit of an epidemic these days. Also, if your daughter is uncomfortable with �counselling�, you could also look into art therapy. Most children�s groups are based on activities and expressive therapies as it is often difficult for kids to talk about the issue directly.

I�m sorry this is happening FS. The unfairness of it goes without saying. (((HUGS)))

The children are on H's private medical. I don't want to bring it up with him again because he will see that as me trying to guilt him into coming back. He has the children tomorrow evening and up to Saturday night so, depending on how she is with him, he might bring it up himself. If he does, then I will say, that I would be very supportive of her seeing a counsellor. If he does not bring it up, then I guess I will look into one myself and just pay the fees.

DjV - I will look into groups in the area. Thank you for the advice.

Journaling

Today I have some a non H related update. I went to a Reiki healer. I have never been to one before, but thought it was worth a shot. This crises has made me look inwards a lot and I've discovered a new found interest in the spiritual. Anyway, I looked online on my way in this morning, found one a stones throw away from work, who by chance had one open appointment today, and it seemed a little too serendipitous, so I booked there and then.

It was the strangest thing. I lay on a bed for 40 minutes with my eyes shut and he put his hands on different parts of my body. There was some slight manipulation, but mostly he kept his hands still. For the last 3 or 4 months whenever I meditate my body starts to convulse. Scared the hell out of me at first, but now I just go with it. Anyway, I went into a meditate state and my body started convulsing. Not the manic convulsions I have when I am on my own, but, because I didn't want him to think I was a freak, slightly smaller convulsions. Whenever it happened he would push down gently on whatever part of my body he was working on. At the end he touched my shoulder lightly (he told me he would do this when it was time to open my eyes). We then spoke for about half an hour.

Apparently, and I guess this will come as no surprise to anyone reading this ... I am too much in my head (all my energy is in my head and none of it is flowing down to other areas of my body, I have a blockage in my tummy area (he named the chakra but I can't remember now) which means family, my right knee is slightly out indicating (relationship issues with a male). I also have a blockage in my throat area (problems communicating). Oh, and I have a beautiful heart, but it is closed off at the moment. He is explained what he thought the convulsions were, but that was just a little weird even for me. He said a couple of other things non-H related which hit home with me too.

I am not sure how much faith I have in it. But we did not talk about what was happening in my life at all. I simply lay down, he touched various parts of my body, and then we talked about where there were blockages.

Anyway, a weird day. I will go back though because I feel slightly energized as I type this.

D12 seems to be better this evening. She was laughing and smiling again. I let her practice French plats on me and we discussed her football training. D9 is always happy (though she comes out with the most random observations/questions about me and H).

I got two texts from H today. One informing me that his sister was picking up the girls tomorrow and asking me to let the school now and another again telling me that his sister is picking up the girls tomorrow and asking me to pass her phone number to D12. These were lengthy but logistical related texts. I have not responded to either. I scrolled through my text history with him for the last few weeks and his are all lengthy, mine are all one liners (yes, no, I will be there at ...). For a moment I considered increasing my communication to 'friendly chatter' but in light of my decision to double down on Db'g I will stick with my current approach.

PS - Today, I think is a good day.

Your day seems like it was pretty great FS!!! The Reiki experience sounds interesting. My BIL�s mom was a Reiki Master (spent months in India) but also an expert in asbestos removal. Very different professions, IMO. She was interesting, to say the least.

If your BIL's mom is anything like the Reiki guy I saw, then, yes, interesting to say the least. I would like to explore it though - 180 just for me as I don't normally buy into that sort of thing.

Journaling

H came back today. I got a text around 6 to say that he was "on route home but traffic was horrendous <sad face>". This was his way of hinting that I might need to pick the girls up from his sisters. I responded with "Ok. I am still at work". I have also sent him a text with logistical things and closed with "Oh, and welcome back". The last part was unnecessary but the rest of the text was so cold.

I am not sure if I will see him or not. He will need to pass by the house to get things for the kids for tomorrow. If I time it right, I will be there after he has come and gone. I am sitting in a starbucks biding time. I am not ready to see him. I am not in the mood for pretending to be ok with everything and he will likely read my body language.

I got home after they had come and gone (it was 9:00 by the time I walked through the door). I must have sat in that coffee shop for hours

. I had kind of planned in my head that I would not need to see him until change over Saturday night. That would be the longest we have ever not seen one another.

I called the girls when I got in. I called on D12's phone. I normally call on his phone and he says hello and hands it over to the girls. But, as he has been calling on D12's phone I guess it has become our new normal. Whilst speaking to the girls he called out "ask mummy to bring black leggings for D12 in the morning". So, my plans to not see him went out the window ...

I decided to go over early so I could spend 10 minutes with the girls before they went to school. When I got there he was cordial but not overly friendly. He did ask some odd questions "Are you going into work today?" (a veiled comment on my attire, leather trousers and a jumper), "Are you allowed to wear that to work" (a non-veiled comment on my attire), "Are you going in late today?" (veiled attempt to show that he did not believe I was going to work). Too me this all sounds like does not trust me but can't bring himself to just ask. It is very strange. Anyway, I sat with D9 and did her hair. I spoke briefly to D12 and then said I would walk D9 to school and then head off.

I had left in a hurry this morning so I could spend some time with the girls before they went to school so had to come home (didn't feed the dog, didn't put the rubbish out). When I got home, guess who was putting the rubbish out !!!

I drove up, smiled and said "What are you doing here" and he said he wanted to take our dog for a walk and then noticed I hadn't put the rubbish out so he had just finished doing this. I told him thank you, but that I had planned to do that when I came back (I left in a hurry this morning so I could see the girls). He took the dog for a walk, and when he came back I was working. He poked his head through the door, said "see you" and then left.

Weird.

Tomorrow is my stop smoking course. I am staying in London tonight (early start tomorrow) and meeting some friends. I have told him I am doing a photography course

Quote

Whilst speaking to the girls he called out "ask mummy to bring black leggings for D12 in the morning". So, my plans to not see him went out the window ...

That's all it takes? I've worked with kids a lot and I hated when mom and dad were running around to deliver all of the things little johnny needed but didn't bring. I don't know the circumstances of this quote, but if you don't want to see him, leggings shouldn't be the thing to change your mind.

And then, you get there and he's being passive aggressive and you just took it. Why? Don't let people treat you like that.

You guys are both acting weird in my opinion. Why did you tell your H what you are doing? He moved out. If he inquires as to your whereabouts or activities, you are with friends. He doesn't need to know everything. He wants to know everything, and you want to tell him everything, but he doesn't really want to jump "all in" with you. But you are letting him get a little taste when he wants it.

Hi ovr,

Yes, I guess from reading the above it may sound a little weird.

D12 had an out of uniform day today. She brought ripped jeans to her dads but then remembered she can't wear ripped jeans to school. She would have got in trouble so I agreed to drop them off on the way to the station. He lives near the station. If it was out of my way I probably would have said no.

Today is a work day so he assumed I was passing by his and then heading straight to work. He was surprised at my attire. I told him I was going to work and that Friday's are casual. He has told his mum before that he thinks I play truant from work so I guess that is what he was getting at. Also, he has never liked me dressing 'provocatively' (note: this is all in his head) but I think this comes from him being jealous. He now can't say anything anymore so he makes passive aggressive comments - which I ignore. Is this not the right response? I am going with the 'what you say doesn't impact me' approach rather then rising to the bait. I suppose I could have said "none of your business" but that sounds a little extreme. But you are correct, he should no longer be asking me questions. But when he asks a direct question like "Are you going to work" it is difficult to say anything other than "Yes, I am going to work".

Also, he married someone who is relatively attractive - then gets upset when other men look at her. This is his problem ... which I owned before he left ... but now that he has MO, it is his problem and his problem alone. I will not change the way I dress to suit him anymore.

I decided to not go to work after all. I needed to come home to finish some stuff off and then decided I couldn't be bothered. I was surprised he was here so was thrown a little of kilter. One of the things I have to do is tell him he just can't turn up here anymore whenever he wants.

I am spending the night in the city as I am on a course in the morning and would have to get up at the crack of dawn if I stayed here. He knows (because I asked him to watch the children tonight) but he doesn't know why. He has not asked and it is probably driving him mad.

Right, I need to book a hotel and sort out my overnight bag.

He just shows up whenever he wants at your house?

You have to tell him in no uncertain terms that that has to stop immediately. I would lose my sh#t if W just showed up randomly at my house, or even worse, was already there when I got home. That is cake-eating.

When my W left, she took the moped and I kept the car. It has been really cold recently so last night I was going to give her the super thick winter gloves for the moped which she had left. However, I discovered that they were already gone. She had grabbed them one day when she came over for the dog. I calmly but assertively told her that she isn't to take anything from the house without talking to me first. We need to lay down rules for how things are going to work and simply let the WAS know that is how it is going to be.

Also, I have to agree with Ovr, that it IS none of his business where you are or what you are doing. You don't need to be hostile in your responses, not at all. But you don't owe him any explanation.

Originally Posted by Davide

You have to tell him in no uncertain terms that that has to stop immediately. I would lose my sh#t if W just showed up randomly at my house, or even worse, was already there when I got home. That is cake-eating.

I have tried, believe me. He complies for a while, then something will happen (like D9 forgot her PE kit and I had already left for the day) and he just 'swings by' to get it. I have even contemplated changing the locks (not legally allowed). H is a pilot so is home a lot on weekdays. We agreed whenever possible, he will have the girls on these days. This blurs the line as he will come over and watch them before school and then watch them after school as well. It is easier for him to watch the girls at the house. It is also company for our dog who would otherwise be on her own from 7 in the morning until 7 at night if he were to watch them at his. I get a schedule before the start of each month with the days he is going to do this. So, there is an agreed level where he can come to the house when I am not there.

So, in a nutshell, I ask, he moans ("It is MY house", "These are half MY things"), complies for a bit, but then gets complacent and it starts again. He knows though ... he was definitely uncomfortable this morning when I drove up the driveway unexpectedly because he walked the dog and then left sharpish.

Re this morning

H: "Are you going to work today" (You don't look like you are dressed for work).
M: "Yes, I am going to work".
H: "Are you going in late today?" (I don't think you are going to work because you are dressed like that)
M: "Yes. I will probably have to go in late"
H: "Are you allowed to dress like that" (I don't think you are going to work )
M: "Yes - we have casual Friday"

These questions were not one after the other. After each question and response there would be a pause where we either talked about the girls, or he would finish getting ready.

I guess the proper DB response would have been simply to say "Yes" to all three questions and leave out the rest, but to me it would have sounded rude FTF.

Firstly, I did my stop smoking course today. So far, so good, but it is only day 1. I am crossing my fingers that it sticks. No-one knows I have done the course other than those here who take the time to read my journal as I don't really want anyone putting anymore doubts in my head then there already are.

I had to tell H I was on a photography course as I was scheduled to have the children today and needed to swap. Unfortunately, there was massive delays on the train which mean I was an hour late home ... and he had to change his plans for the evening ... oh well. I was suitably not sorry when I finally came home this evening.

I got the usual passive aggressive sh!t which I ignored.

H told me D12's netball coach had had a word with him about her not being the same player she was last year. She is not integrating with the team and seems disinterested. Her coach asked H if there was anything wrong. H told her we had separated. Apparently D12 was not happy that he had told her coach. I said something along the lines of "She had to be told eventually". He then said that he thinks we should put D12 into therapy (I agreed). And then he said I should sort it out and I said "No". Then it took a massive turn for the worst. He called me "emotionally detached even from my own children" and "selfish" and then accused me of having a "screw lose because [my] childhood was messed up". I said "I am not the selfish one, yes she can do with counselling, but I will not sort it out". He kept saying "What's wrong with you? How can you be so selfish and unemotional?", oh and this is the kicker "when she grows up I will tell her about this!".

I want to be clear. I love my children very much and I am not emotionally detached from them. I do however GAL without them so it may appear I am not around as much.t When he is over with the girls, I purposely make myself scarce saying things like "I will be upstairs whilst you visit with the girls" or "As you are here, I am going to pop out for an hour", when we are all in the same room I don't go out of my way to make too much conversation, so I guess to him that is me being emotionally detached.

So, a good day (stopped smoking) and a bad day (got accused of being selfish and having a screw lose).

I want to send him a text and say "FU for using my childhood against me and saying I don't care about my kids". But I won't. I won't let him get the better of me. I think there was more going on then my saying no to organizing counselling - I think he feels me pulling away and he does not like it. I guess that means I am on the right track ... where this particular track is going for I am not sure.

urghhh - and the 'camera' appears to be switched back on

I agree with you FS. I think there is more going on. He knows you. He knows you are not emotionally detached from your kids. He is worried you are emotionally detached from him. Stay the course. You are doing great. Two things...
First... Congrats on your first day of non-smoking. You can do it!!! I know a number of lifelong smokers who have managed to kick the habit. It just takes some commitment and determination and I know you have no shortage of either of those characteristics. Second... WTF is up with that stupid camera?? I think you should just tell your H you are turning it off and that you don�t like to be spied on. Or... better yet, have it uninstalled and get just a plain alarm system without the video option. It is ridiculous that he keeps turning it on. That is not for your safety...it�s spying.

Thanks DjV.

It can't just be that I said no to organizing a therapist for D12. I mean how do you get "you are selfish", "you are emotionally detached from your own children" and have a "you have a screw lose" from just the simple act of my saying "No - you sort it out this time".

Is this typical behavior when the WAS starts to feel you moving away from them?

I am still reeling from the accusations "you have a screw lose because of your childhood comment" - My childhood was difficult and there are only a handful of people who know about it, mainly because they were there. I finally told my H during MC last year. He didn't say anything at the time. Just watched me.

I am thinking of sending him a text/email along the lines of the below ... and would like some feedback.

"H, I can see how it might seem to you I am pulling away from the children. In the past, whenever you have been with the children we have been together as a family - you, the girls AND me. However, you have made it clear that your idea of family does not include me (you care more about [our dog] than you do me) and whilst it hurt at first, I am accepting of this. When I am with the children on my own, I am fully committed to them in the same way as I have always been. I support your decision to put D12 into counselling and will make myself available in whatever way is required. Lastly, I would appreciate you not using my childhood against me. The fact you did a) tells me I was right to keep it from you and b) I lost a little respect for you yesterday. If you use it against me again, any hope we had of a future relationship, be it friendship or reconciliation, will be gone and you will be no more than the biological father of my children".

What do you think?

Don't send that email.

Stick to business and the kids. Reaching out like that to justify yourself might feel good in the moment, but it is counterproductive to DBing. You don't need to justify your actions to him, and it looks weak to do so. Same with making threats about using your childhood trauma against you. You are showing him that he has power over you, that he can get to you with his digs. Don't give him that satisfaction.

You need to let go whatever he thinks about you and your parenting. It doesn't matter. Do what you know is best for yourself and your kids and let him think whatever the h#ll he wants to.

I agree with Davide FS. You wrote that in reaction to his complaining and accusing you of something you know is not true. No need to defend yourself...he knows you are a good mom. He is trying to make you the problem. Don�t let him. It will only get in the way of him looking in the mirror and coming to terms with the fact that he and his choices are a big part of the reason your D12 is struggling. Don�t give him something else to focus on. Just keep up with all of your effforts. I know if it were me posting this, you would give me the exact same advice. Take a step back. Quiet your mind. Do something fun today with you and your Ds. (((HUGS)))

I know you�re both right. He is just baiting me. I still can�t believe he stouped that low and to then call me selfish after all he has done. This is so hard. It feels like I am letting him off again.

Right, lovely day today otherwise. Went to watch D12 play footie. After an extremely long losing streak (I�m talking seasons not games) their team won today. 2-0 both goals by D12. I screamed through the entire match. It was excellent. H missed this game (working) so I sent him a text �2 nill our way. D12 scored both�. I think this is ok.

Out for dinner with the girls then going to watch nut cracker. H mentioned before he left last night he might pop round to see girls but as we are busy (I heard D12 say mummy is taking us to see a movie when he called and asked what they were up to this afternooon) I guess if he did decide to pop around, he will just have to find something else to do.

Thank you D and DjV - it still feels wrong not to say anything but you are right - it wouldn�t achieve anything either

Good for you FS!!! Sounds like you turned it around and had a great day with your ads. I don�t think there is anything wrong with sending your H a text about your ads goals. Reminds him that he is still part of a family and, at the same time, that family is enjoying a life without him too...that he is missing out. It is such a fine line, isn�t it? Friendly but not too friendly? I find I am uncomfortable when I stray too far onto one side or the other. I still love my H. I think he is still struggling even though he puts on a good front. I don�t want to add to his troubles but they are his to solve. Looking forward to seeing my kids this evening. I haven�t seen them since Thursday morning and I miss them. Anyway...two more matches in the team event and then the tournament is done for another year. Having a lot of fun!!! Enjoy what is left of your day. (((HUGS)))

DjV - the first few times the kids were away with H overnight were the hardest and the weekends oh so very very long. But it does get easier and strangely, I find myself looking forward to them. Initially I would always book GAL activities (I watched a lot of movies by myself :)) but now I just enjoy being in the house on my own. Unless he is taking them somewhere special (say an amusement park for the day) I don't even worry about what they are doing.

I think your H does put on a good front. Rainbows and unicorns I call it but there is definitely sadness there. I think for my H the sadness comes from the loneliness (and not necessarily from missing me). That he is missing me, is represented in the little burst of jealousy (which comes out as anger). Though this could be that he senses his cake eating is being threatened. Probably the latter actually.

We watched Harry Potter in the end and not nutcracker The girls were enthralled which was awesome to watch. Even D9, who was adamant before the movie that she did not want to watch it, and only did so because I bribed her with a toy next time we went to the toyshop was so excited about it that she couldn't wait to call daddy when we got in. I could hear both girls talking over each other and rushing to get their words out as they described it in their nightly call (always on speaker :)).

I honestly have no idea what the heck is going on.

Saturday, night he was angry at me for being late and making him cancel his plans. He then tells me I am 'selfish' and have 'a screw loose'. I walk away.

Sunday, we don't see him (I made sure we had plans so he couldn't just pop round). He texts to say he will be here at half seven in the morning (Monday) to take the girls to school. His car is at the end of the driveway when I go out at ten past seven (like he has been sitting there watching the house - or he could have just turned up).

He then offers to pick the girls up after school to save me rushing back from work. I came home and he was here. He said he was going to wait here and take the girls to netball training. It was a couple of hours before training so I offered him dinner as it would be rude not too (I was doing spaghetti Bolognese so there was more than enough).

We had some general awkward stunted conversation - netball, football etc. He then says "Why didn't you take your camera to the photography course" (darn, I forgot about the blasted camera) so I just replied "oh, I didn't need it - it was all phone based photograph". One direct question after another. I eventually got sick of the questioning and just said "Do you want to see the photos" and he just went "No, it's ok". Not sure what I would have done if he had said yes. He never came out and asked me if I was lying. Nor did he ask me how the course went.

I don't get it. I get he has doubts about whether I went on the course or not (I am a dreadful liar) but why try and catch me out? What's the point ...

PS - for those that haven't read the previous posts I said I was going on a photography course but actually went on a stop smoking course. I didn't tell him because I couldn't deal with the negativity ("you'll never do it", "waste of money").

He is still out with D12 at training and will bring her back after. He is back again tomorrow morning to pick the girls up before school and will pick them up after school (if he doesn't get called into work - he is on standby).

I will continue on my path ... but it is confusing as [censored]. It would be easier to detach if he was a total ar$e but he is not.

Not that confusing IMO. He suspects you are dating or exploring the idea of it and he doesn't like it. So he is around more, asks you pointed questions about where you were and what you are doing, watches the front of your place with his camera that he keeps turning on. Seems obvious to me anyway. Keep doing what you are doing FS. I think you are in a good place.

Apparently he has now paid a monthly subscription so that a months worth of activity gets sent to a cloud instead of being wiped out every day ... the bloody gall of that man. I will keep switching it off when I am on my own and then sitching it back on when I have the girls.

On the flip side I can now see every time he comes to the house without asking me first.

He even told me about someone coming up our driveway and then driving off at 4:30am a few nights ago. He thinks it was someone staking our the house. He even went round to the neighbours to warn them.

It does not feel like we are moving towards R. It feels like he is further away than ever

I know that feeling all to well. I had a big bowl full of it last night. Had so much of it that I came very close to throwing up. It s*cks. Had to send my H a text to let him know I would be home tonight so he didn't need to come over. Very business-like reply. Okay - thank you for the update. I have a feeling he is going to get more and more business-like as time goes on. He wants me to stop caring about him.

I'm not sure your H is in the same boat. He seems like the kind of person who would have a lot of pride and stubbornness when it comes to reconnecting so that may work against you. But...he is more concerned about your activities than he should be given the circumstances. Don't discount that so quickly.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

Yes, I think this is spot-on. That doesn't mean he's not having a grand old time sleeping around himself FS, but of course he is going to hold you to a different standard.

He is definitely proud and stubborn. I am not sure if he can get past that even if he was having second thoughts.

Anyway, I continue on, head held high, one foot in front of the other. Where it leads time will tell. I don�t think I would have got this far with my dignity and sanity intact without this forum.

FS is this a security camera that he has? If he isn't in the home why does he have access still?

Also I wouldn't lie about the anti-smoking class. Just don't tell him about it, he doesn't want to be in the MR then its none of his business.

FS you seem to be doing well in all areas except detachment. That was (and at time continues to be) the hardest step in the process for me.

I am in no way near detached ... but I make a good show of it. In the last few months I have been accused of the following:

1. Lacking empathy (when I mentioned to his mum I was considering going back to school to do a counselling degree)
2. Being selfish (for GAL'g)
3. Being emotionally detached from my children (again GAL'g)

It is only in my head (and here) where I obsess. It is difficult when I see him near every day.

GAL - I talked to a friend yesterday about her impending D. I managed to do this without hijacking the conversation with my own sitch. I am meeting her for lunch today. Other than that, work and kids. Work, whilst not really GAL'g, is a life saver for me. Throwing myself into it and seeing how appreciated reminds me there is something of value in me that he take away.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Yes, I think this is spot-on. That doesn't mean he's not having a grand old time sleeping around himself FS, but of course he is going to hold you to a different standard.

Strangely, I do not think he is sleeping around. I am the one who, before him, had multiple partners. I was the one who could sleep with someone and then carry on the next day as if nothing had happened. All in the past mind, but he still hated this about me and if anything, he finds it difficult to separate sex from any larger meaning. I would introduce him to a friend from my past and that look would cross his face --- has she slept with him and what does he mean to her.

I am not sure if he is still seeing OW, but I know that if he is, it would be playing absolute havoc with his mind. He does not want to commit, but he is also very very lonely. Which puts him in a difficult situation - and the guilt must be eating him up.

Hi Twofeet

Originally Posted by Twofeet

The camera line is part of a package that he pays for. I cannot disable it fully without having to change our utility bill. He will not change the utility bill. I have tried to get him to cancel and put in my name but he won't. I think he called me "ridiculous". I don't worry about it too much. I turn it off when I want to. He turns it back on. Neither of us mentions it though (he did last time but thought it was because his subscription ran out).

I wouldn't normally bother telling him what I am doing but the course was on a day that I was supposed to have the girls so had to make something up.

Another day in limbo land ...

I had lunch with a girlfriend today. We chatted a little about her impending D. Her sitch is so different. They are still in the same house, and they are friendly (even banterish) but the D is really adversarial. Neither can wait for it to be over. He has no interest in spending time with the children or of providing for them properly once the D is finalised. We started having problems at the same time, and it is strange how hers progressed so quickly (and he is still at home) whilst mine has been in limbo forever (and he MO in march). There is no sign of a divorce on the horizon and my H wants to be with us more than he doesn't.

For those that are wondering, he was back again this evening. He picked the girls up from school, brought them back here (I told him I would be home), and then we all had dinner together. He has taken D9 to her tutor and then will bring her back after.

I keep thinking back to how those that respond to my thread say I am on the right track and the signs, no matter how minute, indicate that his feelings towards me are changing ever so slowly. But it does not feel like that. It feels like with each stunted interaction, each truth not fully given, I am pushing him further and further away. By showing him that I am living my life 'without a care in the world' that I am somehow saying the line has been crossed, the rope has been dropped, and I do not want you back.

How does a proud man come back if he thinks you do not want him back?

Originally Posted by FlySolo

I keep thinking back to how those that respond to my thread say I am on the right track and the signs, no matter how minute, indicate that his feelings towards me are changing ever so slowly. But it does not feel like that. It feels like with each stunted interaction, each truth not fully given, I am pushing him further and further away. By showing him that I am living my life 'without a care in the world' that I am somehow saying the line has been crossed, the rope has been dropped, and I do not want you back.

How does a proud man come back if he thinks you do not want him back?

FS, I frequently struggle with this. My W is stubborn and proud, too. It was great when it worked in my favor. I worry that she is far too proud to ever allow herself to look back and say, "Maybe I could have done better there, maybe I should go back and try again." It's an ugly thought that forces me to remind myself that I have no control over her. AND, as is quite clear from what I post here, I'm not even CLOSE to sending out that kind of message. If she showed up at my door tonight I'd hug her. The woman who betrayed me, lied to me, and then kicked me to the curb. If it's that obvious to the LBS, how much more obvious is it to the WAS that the LBS is not detached? But yes, I think I and a lot of others here understand that fear.

The advice here is that your H SHOULD be 100% convinced that you don't want him back, the same way the LBS already feels 100% convinced that the WAS doesn't want us. This is supposedly what results in a renewed attraction. It's difficult to argue against it because there are plenty of stories about how that's exactly what it took to change the sitch. But the statistician in me cringes at the idea that we can use anecdotal evidence in the absence of any base rate data to make those kinds of judgments. In this case faith is probably more useful than logic.

The important question is: when or how will you be sure that he is 100% sure that you don't want him back?

Originally Posted by FlySolo

How does a proud man come back if he thinks you do not want him back?

Another thought, for the sake of discussion or maybe just "thinking out loud." To the extent that we humans create an understanding of reality through language, maybe we need to change that phrasing. I don't think we're trying to be so detached that the WAS will "come back." I think we are trying to be so detached that the WAS will WANT us. The stories I read seem to involve a year or two of time and space to let the negative emotions wear off, to let the WAS realize that the other options have their own issues. And then to choose us as their new partner. Sort of like if they went to a speed-dating thing after 2 years and you happened to be one of the participants, and they happened to find you attractive and want to get your number.

Quick update

He decided to tell me tonight that he is taking the girls away in February next year. I replied �cool, I am going away in feb for a week so that works out�. He then has the gall to say to me �You�re using up your holiday to go away without the girls�. This from the man who has just gone away for a week to [censored] Dubai (with last minute detour to Malaysia) and who thought it would be acceptable to book a trip to Japan a month after MO. AS - you are right. He does hold me to a higher standard.

I reminded him I can go away without the children, same as him. He didn�t say anything. He also did not ask me where I was planning on going (skiing) or with whom (on my own as part of a yoga retreat).

I am just appalled at the double standards.

FS

You are an extraordinarily articulate and strong woman and therefore I know that you know the answer to your question. If he wants to be back in the marriage he'll walk over hot coals and wouldn't let a thing like pride get in his way. Don't make excuses for his lack of commitment (at the moment) and think of lowering your expectations. If he's so dumb that he would put pride before his love for you, then why would you settle for that person. Shouldn't love be selfless at times, not selfish?

I don't know if I can explain it properly but it seems to me (obviously an ignorant outsider) that you are still being 'proactive' in trying to detach. You are still thinking too much about him and what he's doing and thinking. I suspect that detachment only comes when you stop trying to be active to the relationship. The only action should be your lack of action. Not because you don't care, or your being callous or cold, but because you have so much else going on that it's the last thing you want to use your energy on. Let the situation play itself out. Don't try to manipulate it or force it and find that inner peace that is not dependent on him.

For most of us on here, the odds are stacked against repairing the relationship. If you decide a change of tactic and revert to showing him how much you want and need him back, if the relationship doesn't work out I would put money on your mental health and self esteem being in a far worse state than if you continue to DB. We want to be strong if the worst happens, not a gibbering wreck.

If and when he gets a thumping whack across the head and comes to his senses, he can demonstrate a bit of good old fashioned courtship and pursuit, pride or not. You're worth it.

Don't be appalled at his double standards; it's too strong an emotion. Just chuckle at his continuing idiotic behaviour. You know the truth about what a good and selfless parent you are. I can think of some good Northern phrases to describe his behaviour but they would be censored I'm afraid!

Thanks Burned and Yorkie - I know, I am in now way detached. It would be easier I guess if that 2 years involved not seeing him. But I see him everyday. The constant contact feeds the obsession

Here are the small signs i am healing:

1. I do not worry at all about what he might be doing when he is not with me. The thought of another woman or women does not occupy my mind at all.
2. I am, most of the time, a fully functional human being, able to hold down a job, maintain friendships and have non H related conversations. At these times, I do not think about him at all
3. I am rediscovering who I am. I have too long been caught up in the material. I am at heart altruistic, caring and kind. I am trying to live by those values.
4. I can see him for the silly, vindictive little man he can be. And I can laugh at him. I still love him. But I recognise his triggers and know how he reacts when faced with one of those triggers.
6. His actions or words do not hurt me as much. This comes from having little or no expectations. I get annoyed more than anything now. .

Things I need to work on:

Boundaries and my own fear when it comes to enforcing them (DejaVu just wrote a beautiful post on facing her fears).
Validating - my gut response is to shut the conversation down (fear again I guess)

yorkie - I can hear those northern phrases loud and clear - they are even coming through with a northern accent. Also good to hear from you. I was afraid you had felt strong enough to not need this site anymore, and was happy for you), but selfishly missed your common sense, tell it like it is approach.

I'm still here FS; watching and learning. Feeling strong and mostly determined. There are still lots of things I'd like to say to him; mostly not nice things, but I can't honestly be bothered with him. Still resent him every morning when I have to walk the dog in the rain so I call him a few choice words under my breath!

Apart from that though, I'm not sure there is any way in which my life has deteriorated with him not here. I'm pretty sure there are improvements. Perhaps its a 'honeymoon' period?? Money will be tight but there will be enough to house, feed and clothe us so we'll be good.

He continues to be a total flake and have let the boys down a few times but I've advised them to lower their expectations. He answered his phone to OW on loud speaker the other day when middle son was helping him load the boot up. Middle son was livid and said he felt totally disrespected. I helped him see the funny side that the relationship with OW is obviously on such solid ground that she was panicked because he had come down here for an hour. He should reassure her that I'm not going to jump his bones.

I do feel for the lads because they are embarrassed about his teenage like behaviour, so we just laugh. I think he's made the effort to see grandson twice since he was born 6 weeks ago. Last visit he took flowers for DIL and a box of chocolates for son. You have to laugh because eldest son is a Type 1 Diabetic and never ever eats chocolate.

I'm doing loads of research into planning a holiday for next year. Happy to go exploring on my own. That's a big thing for me; only ever travelled with someone else for 30 years. Current thoughts are West coast USA in spring, taking in Grand Canyon or East coast USA in the fall and maybe a trip up to Niagra at the same time. He wouldn't have done either of these things so it makes them all the more attractive.

I do still think about him casually most days, but only in a fleeting 'there's a man I used to live with' way. It's 5 months but it feels more like 5 years. I can't remember what it is like to have him here. I so had to give myself a stern talking to asking myself what did I possibly want him for at the moment. Lying, cheating, manipulating, borderline alcoholic with erectile dysfunction? Not really selling it? If he can turn around the first three, there are still other pretty major obstacles for him to overcome. I don't expect him to be able to do those things, or necessarily want to, and once i'd realised that, I was able to drop all expectations. I suppose what I'm saying is that I have reset the bar and it is pretty high. Great if he wants to reach it, but I'm not settling for less. In the first 2 months I would have taken him back at any costs; I promised that i would change and he didn't need to do anything. If I met him for the first time now, I wouldn't entertain him.

I still believe in marriage and in my marriage but I no longer have any expectation that we will fix it. I rather suspect that we won't. And I now know (thanks to DB) that I will be fine.

I'm ashamed of my early behaviour to be honest. But I can't go back and undo it. But then again, he has more to be ashamed of than me.

I've said before that it is so much easier for me because the boys are grown. I know how difficult it is for you when you have younger children. How do you think it will look 3 or 4 years down the line if you were to get divorced? Would he still come by as much as he does or would it be a more formal arrangement? Is there an interim stage that you could move towards in the shorter term? Conversely, you seem to be doing pretty well and if this works for you then exploit it. He's a very important person in the children's lives but to you he's free childcare. (I occasionally use mine as a free dog walker!)

I don't think you should be frightened of doing something because it might reduce the chances of R. You have to be true to yourself.

I take my flat cap off to you FS and all the others on here who have children still at home. It takes so much strength when it's slammed in your face every day.

Nothing wrong with being annoyed at him. Healthy feeling to have towards someone acting like a ****womble.

Originally Posted by Yorkie

You make me laugh. I can imagine you walking out on a cold morning muttering [insert preferred cuss word here] under your breath.

No, seriously, I don't hear any fear or resentment in your voice. Just a little annoyance at your H for putting you through this crap. I am very glad you are still here checking in on us. I am very glad that you are able to look on him with pity (and laughter) now. I wish we knew each other in real life. I think we would probably have a good laugh at our the idiocy of our H's behaviours. We could probably get through a few decent bottles of wine in the process.

Originally Posted by Yorkie

I'm doing loads of research into planning a holiday for next year. Happy to go exploring on my own. That's a big thing for me; only ever travelled with someone else for 30 years. Current thoughts are West coast USA in spring, taking in Grand Canyon or East coast USA in the fall and maybe a trip up to Niagra at the same time. He wouldn't have done either of these things so it makes them all the more attractive.

You should absolutely do this. I went away for a week in April to Morocco. It was the first time I had gone anywhere on my own. I landed in Casablanca at 10 pm at night searching for a man holding a sign with my name on it. There was no man holding a sign with my name on it. I was petrified. Strange country. Middle of the night. Sudden realization that I am a very small female. All I had was a contact number for the place I was staying at. It kept ringing out and my phone was dying. I sat there on a bench trying to work out what the [censored] I was going to do - by this time my phone had died. I thought I'd have to sleep on that [censored] bench and then book a flight back in the morning. But, after about 10 mins a man came running over waving his sign. I have never been so happy in my life to see my H's surname. The rest of the holiday was brilliant. I went to a yoga studio that had rooms you could rent attached to it. I did all forms of yoga and when I wasn't doing that I went exploring. On my own. Without any set plans. I would ask for recommendations from the teachers, hop in a cab and just go. I saw the most amazing things. Each night I wrote long emails to the children. I ran through each day in detail with them, describing the people I had met, the places I had been and through this rediscovered my love of writing. I came back happy. This was when I started to know that I was going to be OK.

The reality of my life soon came back but it was somehow not charged with the same emotion.

Originally Posted by Yorkie

How do you think it will look 3 or 4 years down the line if you were to get divorced? Would he still come by as much as he does or would it be a more formal arrangement? Is there an interim stage that you could move towards in the shorter term? Conversely, you seem to be doing pretty well and if this works for you then exploit it. He's a very important person in the children's lives but to you he's free childcare. (I occasionally use mine as a free dog walker!)

It would be a more formal arrangement. 3 - 4 years down the line I will probably have had to sell the house. He will want his equity and I cannot buy him out. One of the reasons he is so comfortable coming around is that he feels this is still his home/house - a different house will not feel like his home. I would also require more rigid arrangements around childcare. At the moment, it all works in his favor. I have to work around him and his work schedule. I cannot plan anything because his work schedule changes month by month. I have to pay for full time childcare which I don't use half the time. He would also have the dog when he has the children. I didn't want a dog. He did. At the moment even when he has the children, I still need to come home by a certain time each night to 'look after the dog'. If I go away on a long weekend (with or without the children) I have to organize and pay for a dog sitter. He has literally up and left and just assumed I will look after his home and his children and his dog when he hasn't got the time or the inclination to look after them himself. Keep everything as it was in case he decides to come home. Luckily he frequently has the inclination. But still means I am limited in terms of the plans I can make.

Originally Posted by Yorkie

acting like a ****womble.

That ^^^^ and the reference to the 'lads' made me laugh. Actually, quite a lot about your post made me laugh.

Journaling

Today I sent the email enquiring about the week away in Feb. I think I am definitely going to do it. It is a yoga / ski retreat in France. It looks utterly amazing. The only thing holding me back is the photos on the website and instigram are all of people who not only look like they having been doing yoga since birth, but are so ridiculously photogenic they could be professional models. I am going to do it anyway. Face my fears is the mantra of the moment.

I also treated myself to one of those cupping massages. It looks like two alien snakes have made there way on either side of my spine. Either that or I have taken up with some weird cult. Luckily it is winter over here so I can hide it under turtlenecks and jackets.

Lastly, I started my Christmas shopping. Well, started my Christmas browsing. Christmas shopping might have to wait until I have slightly more time and energy. I can't believe it has come around so quickly. It is impossible, as the Christmas decorations start coming out in the shops, to not think about last year. Last year was horrible. It was at the height of H's alien behavior. This time last year I was walking around on eggshells wondering what the hell had happened to my marriage. He was still here sulking in the living room, giving me dirty looks whenever he saw me and daring me to say something, anything, so he could have a reason to have a go at me. Looking back, I can't believe I made it through that. On the positive side, it is a sign of how far I have come. Sure, he no longer lives here, but these days, he doesn't look at me with utter contempt and I don't walk around wondering what I can do to not set him off.

Stream of consciousness vomit ...

I was reading a thread earlier which talks about the 'existential' crises. I didn't want to hijack his thread, so am doing a little stream of consciousness vomit here.

I have heard MLC described in these terms before. It was the term I used during MC to describe to the therapist what I thought was happening. I didn't want our marriage problems to be written off as a clich�. But seeing it in print today made me think about it again. I think we all have them - moving from one stage of our life to another, like a teenager leaving behind their childhood. We start to question who we are, the choices we made and whether we are happy with our lives and the direction it is going. When we go through this process, I think everyone probably finds some element of their lives lacking. You would have to in order to grow. Some of us internalize this and look at what changes we can make to ourselves. Others, externalize and blame others, and are left with that feeling, if only they could get away from their current lives, then they could be 'the person they were supposed to be'. My H had his crises earlier than I, and he chose the second path. I think we as the LBS are forced into having our crises early. Detach, GAL, 180 - these are tools to help us navigate not only our partners crises, but also our own. I see positive changes in me. I see snippets of the fearless girl with the world at her feet that use to be before a career, a household and mundaness of motherhood. I hope to see more of her. I hope to be able to see the world with the same wonder and optimism that I once did. My H, as long as he blames everyone but him for what is lacking, will never get to the next stage of his life. He will forever be stuck looking externally for what is lacking inside of him.

I completely agree FS. I told my H that he can�t divorce himself and he just laughed. Thought I was joking? Still feeling like cr@p and feels most like that in my company...therefore it must be me. I do think that, ultimately, it will be us LBS�s who triumph at the end of all this. We go through the pain and the process of self examination in a much more honest way... once we are over the shock and awe of the whole sitch. While I would not want to go through that pain again, I know there will come a point in my life when I will be grateful for it. I will know myself better. I will have more confidence in MYSELF. I will know that I do not NEED a partner in life to survive. I am really looking forward to getting there. For now I try to live mindfully, challenge myself, count my blessings and above all else, I keep the faith that everything is exactly as it is supposed to be and I accept it for what it is...with as few pity parties as possible. (((HUGS)))

I know I don't need a partner to survive. Though I am fine in social settings, and most people would say I was a 'fun' person to be around, if you dig a little deeper, my external extroversion is just a means of controlling my introversion. My H was right, given half the choice I would be content spending the rest of my life with my family. That was the plan. We would spend these years putting our children first, making sure they felt loved and secure, and then, when they left the nest, we would retire comfortably and spend our days travelling. We would keep this big house as a base for our children, who would visit for sunday lunch with their families and our grandkids would spend holidays with us. That's all gone. I am crying now as that future is in tatters. Our house will be sold. He will still travel the world (only affordable because he gets free flights) without me.

The fact that the future is unknown for me now should excite me. But it does not.

He came by the morning to take the children to school and there was more evidence of passive aggressive behavior. He is losing control and he does not like it. There was a couple of things said which upset him. I am going out tomorrow to meet a friend and can't help with childcare logistics (it is his day and I shouldn't have to 'help out'), I did not volunteer to buy the family Christmas cards this year and I reminded him that I still do not have the childcare schedule for December. He didn't say much really - just wouldn't look me in the eye. Normally he fusses over the girls until they are ready. This morning he took the bags to his car and sat in his car for 10 minutes until I sent the girls out. He didn't even say goodbye to me. No pretense that everything is as it should be. No rainbows and unicorns on his side of the fence this morning.

Mind reading. But I know my H and to be honest, his reaction today (to go and sit in his car) is unlike him. Normally, when he does not like something I say, he finds someway to turn it around and have a go at me ("you are selfish", "you are cold", "you do not care about your children") but today, he went quiet and then sat in his car. He made some nominal attempts to regain control "Make sure you're back by 5 tomorrow", "I will meet you at football on Sunday" (instead of picking me up as he usually does} but it was a fairly lame attempt.

I keep thinking, is this bringing us closer or further apart. It seems we are back in the IHS days when he was angry all the time. The difference now I guess is he knows he has no right to be angry, so instead of yelling at me, he goes and sits in his car.

I don�t think I would read too much into it other than what seems quite obvious. He is used to you accommodating him and being there for him. You have set your boundaries and you are sticking to them. He knows that he needs to adjust now. He knows he did this. The bloom is coming off the rose. The consequences of his actions are beginning to become apparent and of course he does not like it. Like you said... it is not all rainbows and unicorns on his side of the fence. He needs to sit there for awhile.

I know what you mean about your grief over your future with your H. That is a BIG one for me. My H and I were home free financially. No debts. A beautiful home. Money to travel and likely retire early. We also wanted to travel... or buy a big boat and spend our retirement years boating. That future is gone. We are going from one household to two. Sooner or later, one or both of us will have a mortgage. Our travel plans will be reduced to an occasional trip. We will only have one pension each to rely on instead of two. My H likely has not figured this out yet. He has never had to think of money before and I imagine his brain has not gotten that far down the road yet. He just wants to escape...the cost at this point is irrelevant to him. It will become more relevant as time goes on.

Don�t give up hope FS but keep GAL and DBing. I think everything is going well for you even though you don�t see that right now. He is thinking about things and he is likely having doubts but he won�t� tell you that at this stage. He will just keep doing what he has been doing. The doubts will get bigger as time goes on. Stay the course. You are doing great!!!

Quote

I know what you mean about your grief over your future with your H. That is a BIG one for me. My H and I were home free financially. No debts. A beautiful home. Money to travel and likely retire early. We also wanted to travel... or buy a big boat and spend our retirement years boating. That future is gone. We are going from one household to two. Sooner or later, one or both of us will have a mortgage. Our travel plans will be reduced to an occasional trip. We will only have one pension each to rely on instead of two. My H likely has not figured this out yet. He has never had to think of money before and I imagine his brain has not gotten that far down the road yet. He just wants to escape...the cost at this point is irrelevant to him. It will become more relevant as time goes on.

This is why it is so important to get out of their way. Giving them time and space helps them realize what you posted. It doesn't mean that they are going to change their mind, but it may help.

Journaling

I worked from home yesterday. The nice thing about my job is that they are so flexible. I can pretty much dictate my hours and whether I come in or not. H, as usual asked in the morning "are you going in today" to which I responded "I am not sure yet". I had a dentist appointment in the morning (so was sure) but I find his constant questioning intrusive now.

Sorting my teeth out is one of my 180's I guess. I am one of those people 'blessed' with good teeth so have never had to, apart from the odd checkup and hygienist appointment, never really had to worry about them too much. Until recent years. In the UK you need to book your dental appointments months in advance (unless it's an emergency - in which case you might get one in say, 2 weeks). I am a contractor so booking anything in advance and then taking a day off to attend an hours appointment didn't seem particularly practical or economical. Appointments over the last 2 or 3 years have been limited to absolute emergencies and, because once it got to that stage, I was usually in such pain, I would normally end up going to a private dentist in the middle of the city (so I could do it in my lunch hour). Long story short, I put band aids over the symptoms instead of taking the time to sort it out properly.

Strangely, my H has always had the teeth of a coffee addict. I couldn't understand it those early years we were together. His were yellower than mine and he didn't suffer from either of my addictions (cigarettes and coffee). In the year or so before BD he became obsessed with whitening them. He ended up getting special whitening stuff from Europe. His teeth are so white now that they would put Tom Cruise to shame. He use to say to me sometimes "why don't you get [name]" and I would shrug my shoulders and say "Not really for me".

Anyway, I am getting my teeth sorted and one more appointment and it is done. The dentist has also put me onto a gel for whitening them (prob. the same one my H has but under a diff. name).

My H picked the kids up after school, watched D9's football training and brought them both home. He only came into the hallway. I said something like "Are you running straight off" (as he said he wasn't hanging around after today) and he replied "Yep, I am going to the gym and then to play football with the dads". He still gives me too much information ... I think this is to make clear he is not going on a date ... which leads me to think that when he doesn't give me any information ... he is probably dating. No matter. I reminded him he needed to be here at 9:00 today and also that he hadn't given me the schedule for Dec yet. He looked at me strangely, said "OK" and started heading for the door. I walked him to the door, but he didn't even wait for me to close it, he pulled it closed as he walked out.

There is something not right ... he couldn't wait to leave. Is this the next stage?

I will write the timeline below and the events that preceded each:

Oct 17 BD: Anger and the spew (lasts until he is resolved to MO - Oct to Dec 17)
Dec 17 agreed he would MO Dec 17: sadness and ignoring me (lasts until he MO's March 18)
Mar 18 MO: Everything is fine, nothing to see here (lasts until I find out he is dating Oct 18)
Oct 18 Find out he is dating: over the top niceness, around ALL the time and random acts of kindness (lasts one month - Nov 18)
Nov 18 - I double down on Db'g: Passive aggressive, bursts of anger, can't be in the same room with me.

So, I ask those that have been here for a while, is his recent behavior normal? It seems we have regressed to his post BD behavior (but not as overt) and I do not know if what I am doing is right, or if I should go back to the 'friendly neighbor". I would describe my doubling down on Db'g more "detached manager" - there is no 'friendly' in there.

He�s struggling with something. Not sure what. Haven�t been around here long enough to really venture a guess but maybe he is starting to question some of his decisions? I think you just need to keep doing your thing and let him deal with it. Others may have more to say. Sorry... wish I knew.

FS

How could anybody know? It's his story and his alone. You are separate entities. Let him do his thing, whatever that is. Friendly neighbour, detached manager, whatever works for you. It's to keep you strong. It's about you. I'm not sure it matters to such a degree, others may disagree. It's not designed to fix the marriage, that might be a lucky by product. We both know what doesn't work though.

Whilst I agree this process is about personal healing, it is also about trying to save our marriages. I know we can�t control them, their actions or their behaviours, should it not also follow that OUR actions and behaviours shouldn�t be designed to push them further away. It is a fine balance, regaining yourself AND not losing them more in the process.

One of my Hs ongoing �issues� with me through our M was how I dealt with conflict. I would shut down emotionally - to me this was processing - and then a few days later, I would be fine and things would go back to normal. His way of dealing was to blow up (in a passive aggressive manner) and then 10 mins later, he would be fine (no apology, no recognition that the event happened). He could not understand why I didn�t want to cuddle him on the sofa when 15 mins earlier he had had a go at me for something trivial - forgetting to put the recycling out,daring to have a different opinion about a political candidate. He blows up and is fine. I shut down, take some time, and then I�m fine. He use to say it was like I would flick a switch (detach) and then is flick it off again (not detached). So, my DBg could be for him, validation of all those resentments he felt.

For me - this is about being the lighthouse, no we don�t pave the road back with gold bricks and flowers, but sometimes it feels like we are purposely turning the light off - to leave them weathering the rocks on their own.

I don�t know - today, it just feels like he is really far away.

Marathon not sprint.

I know what you're saying FS I really really do. But you're looking at it as a rational human being and he's not. And you can't make him. I'm not saying push him away by being nasty etc but it looks from the outside that you're trying to second guess him and use the best strategy you can think of to win him back. You can't 'win' him back, he has to choose to come back, if you want him. I look at it as we are not turning the light off, but making sure it is also shining on us. Let it show the 'best us' by working on those things that we feel need improvement. For ourselves.
Neither of our Hs are in a place at the moment where they really care what insight we have into our part in the breakdown or whether we can change. They think they know everything about us.

He knows your feelings on saving the marriage. Let him take his time to realise them and see if he wants the same, but don't chew yourself up trying to work out what he's doing or why.

Hi Yorkie - you are always the voice of reason

I know I cannot 'win' him back, but my concern is I am pushing him further away. In some ways I thought the detachment process was 'passive', i.e. that we give them space to figure things out for themselves whilst we work on ourselves. That bit I get. The part that unsettles me is that this process isn't passive. It is actively doing and saying things (or not) which makes it seem I no longer care for him - and I don't mean as a H, but as a person.

An example email exchange:

H: Looks like [name of school] were wrong about D9 struggling with English {smiley face} {wink} (followed by a report from D9's tutor saying they want to move her up to the next level in English because she is doing so well)
M (after two hours): I have definitely noticed an improvement in her work and attitude.
H (straight away): I have booked her in to get her eyes checked on Monday. I am off so I can take her. Did you get the number for the dyslexia assessment? {her school says she should be checked}
M (after 2 hours): [weblink], [phone number] & [address]

An example text exchange:

H: What do you think of a TV for D12 for Christmas or is there anything else she might like {two links to TVs}
M: Sure. She mentioned hover skates.

--- later in the evening -----

H: She said these are the only things she wants [link to hover skates]. Do you want to go halves? I will keep shopping around
M: Sure.

They are all like that. He asks a question. I respond with as few words as possible. I only initiate to confirm pick ups and drop offs.

Our face to face interactions are no different.

I know what you're saying. It just doesn't feel right.

It's a conundrum. I had second thoughts at times about my approach, but ultimately I think I played things right. I just didn't have much of a chance. My approach has allowed me to move on quicker. You mentioned that you envied my sitch because I haven't been stuck in limbo. Well, you don't need to be stuck in limbo. You can decide to move on with your life. You can't control what your H does. I don't think you need to be cold or short. Just be you. I would continue to work on detaching. I would try to quit mind reading. Those two things really moved me along in the process. It sounds like you are doing well with GAL and 180.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

It just doesn't feel right.

And that's why people keep saying it's counterintuitive. It doesn't have to feel right in order for it to be the right thing to do.

As an outsider looking in, the texts/emails you described there don't give me the impression, at all, that you're actively pushing him away. They seem polite and sufficient, not hostile. You're not so cold as to ignore him completely when there's an issue that needs to be addressed. You probably feel like it's active rather than passive because it's so different from what you normally do, and the FEAR that he is moving further away leads you to misinterpret things.

Originally Posted by burned

You probably feel like it's active rather than passive because it's so different from what you normally do, and the FEAR that he is moving further away leads you to misinterpret things.

You are so right. This is exactly it. I fear his reaction and his retaliation.

I am not misinterpreting though. He knows how I write. It is (you will not be surprised to hear) wordy and full of banter. So his reaction to my sudden efficient use of language is to mimic. At least his mask of 'friendly' co-parents is gone.

Originally Posted by harvey

You mentioned that you envied my sitch because I haven't been stuck in limbo. Well, you don't need to be stuck in limbo. You can decide to move on with your life.

I don't think I envy your sitch - you have gone through hell and back in a blink of an eye. No-one should have to go through that. I envy the finality of it, the fact that you can move on with your life. The fact that your W seems so determined and resolved to D that she is in now way leaving you hanging.

Despite what he says about not giving me false hope, my H has never known what he wants. He has never said he wants a D (it is always me who throws it in his face) and he is ALWAYS HERE. He has never once said we are done - the closest he has come to saying that is "I don't think we will get back together", whereas I have said "I'm done" to him at least a dozen times since this started.

But yes, I will stay the course and I will try and mind read less.

FS

It's so enlightening how we all see similar behaviours in our spouses. Mine also couldn't make his mind up. I fully believe if I hadn't found out about OW then he would have just carried on in both Rs. He left and came back multiple times, each time saying he wanted to work on the MR then taking up with her again when she contacted 'because she's like a drug' Perhaps it will run it's course, but it is nearly 2 years now, so maybe not. When I told him that I wasn't prepared to perform in this circus and there was no MR with her in it; he ran for the hills and hasn't looked back. Was he waiting for me to make the decision so he felt better, or just didn't want to hurt me in the early days? Who knows, but I took the decision that the inability to make his mind up was not a very nice character trait in him.

I may have been in a different position if I'd not done that. But it was the right time for me to regain control of my life. I don't think you or I are in Limbo per se. You are showing respect to the marriage by not rushing into finality, but in the meanwhile preparing yourself for what may happen. I think you're doing a great job of that. You will know if and when that changes and if you need to finalise things.

Thank you Yorkie. I am always grateful when you wade into my sitch - the rational side of my brain speaking with a slightly stronger and slightly northern voice. I half expect you to say "love, you need to get [censored] over yourself".

Another day ...

We all went to watch D12's football game today. The girls stayed with him last night and he picked me up on the way to the game. It was quite pleasant - we were talking through the whole game and we even laughed on occasion. Normally we put some space between us but we stood so close our arms were nearly touching. Not quite the way it use to be - he would have put his arm around me or I would have put my head on his arm - but at least we weren't a minimum of 2 feet away from each other. The only uncomfortable moment was when he asked me what movie I watched yesterday (D12 asked me as I was leaving to go out where I was going and I said "I am going to brunch and then to watch a movie". So when he asked, I told him. He didn't ask how the movie was or who with, he just wanted to know what movie I watched.

D12's team won (back to back wins ... unheard of) and she was in excellent spirits. I ran into D9's coach when I took D9 to the toilet and we chatted a little about D9's progress. They don't have a team for her age group, so she goes to training but doesn't play games. She has been playing for about 6 months and is coming along brilliantly. He mentioned that they are gutted that she can't play yet because she is one of the best natural defenders he has met. She is tiny but fearless and doesn't care if the other player is twice her size --- she will tackle anyway. He said she scares many of the bigger players. Not sure if I should be proud of this, but strangely I am.

I am so glad that H and I have always encouraged our kids to play sports and that H remains committed to this. It is important to both of us that our kids have 'whole' childhoods and we've done this by sending them to the best schools we could afford and also encouraging them (at times dragging them) to different activities. Some have stuck (sports) and some have fallen by the wayside (drama club, guitar lessons, piano lessons) but they will never be able to say that we did not give them opportunities. All the activities may have meant we had to sacrifice some 'couple' time, but this part of my M I do not regret.

After footie, we got a McDonalds takeway and came home and ate together. He then took D9 to her tutor and then (just now) is heading back to his flat. I will pick D9 up and then go straight into town with them to watch a movie and have dinner. We will park at his flat so will probably drop in for a cup of tea so he can say goodnight to the girls. In the morning he is coming to the house to pick us up and drop me off at the station and then take the girls to their respective schools. He will then pick them up after school, take D9 to get her eyes checked and take them to netball training. During the day he is going to get my tires checked and go to the local Nike factory to get some new trainers. He has offered to look for a new pair for me as mine are looking a little worse for wear.

If you have managed to read through all that ... yes, my life is very strange.

I am wondering where his "I need my space" and "I want to know what it's like to live on my own" BS is working out for him.

I don�t know if this is helpful at all but I just had to �interact� with my W and it made me realize how hard it is to sacrifice today for what is worth having tomorrow. Today I just want to feel good about her and �us� but the result is that I act in ways that are not in my best interest in the long run. Respect, not letting her push me around, etc.

My outsider�s perspective on your sitch is that you aren�t doing anything to make yourself desirable and �hard to get.� He doesn�t have to choose between �space� and FlySolo. He has both. Sure, you get a ride to the station, and you don�t have to take the car to get the tires checked. But if your long-term goal is reconciliation, are those little things worth much? If you could �buy him back� by paying for a taxi and telling him that he doesn�t have to drive you anywhere, would that be worth the price? That�s an example and maybe you have figured out which battles to choose. You know best. But I�m seeing you do some of the same things you�ve seen me do. He won�t feel a need to choose you if he can get the milk for free, so to speak. Happy family events, no commitment. (Of course that may be for the kids� sake rather than for his or for yours.)

Humans are very bad at delaying gratification and we tend to avoid pain (e.g., conflict) at the expense of future pleasure.

So I would just encourage you to ask yourself if there is anything you�re doing that works against you in the long run? Something to think about. Are you prolonging your own misery because it hurts too much to do what�s necessary now? That�s something we should be asking ourselves daily.

Wow FS. It sounds like you are a married couple who just happen to sleep in different houses. Burned is right... he hasn�t lost much. BUT...I also know where you are at with respect to the kids and doing what is best for them. Carrying on like this is good for them in a sense as they have both of you and they get to see that you still care about each other. My concern is more about you and what this new normal is becoming. It seems like there is no OW currently so he spends his time with you. But if one all of a sudden put in an appearance and he was not around so much, how do you think you would deal with it? Would you shrug your shoulders (as you would if you were detached) or would it be BD all over again? And would it be BD all over again for your kids? I am certainly not someone to give advice in this regard and I have to say that I am envious of your sitch in some ways as I wish I saw my H that much and we were on friendly terms like that. My H is too worried about giving me false hope whereas yours does not seem too concerned about that. I don�t know. From your description (and that is all I have to go on), I would not be surprised if your H would be open to R but that he is too proud and possibly scared to bring it up. It may be cake eating but it may also be that as you did say it was you who pressed for him to MO and you are the person setting the emotional boundaries.

And just so you know... I still think your H is going to be one of the ones who wants to come back.

B - thank you, 2x4 appreciated.

It is a difficult balance this lovingly detached act we are being asked to pull. I sometimes sway too much in one direction, realise, and move too far in the other. I am glad there are people who are willing to, from time to time, tell me to pull my head out my [censored].

Re making myself desirable. I think it is difficult thing to put across here without sounding like an ego maniac but I am desirable. I am a mixed race, size 4 yoga mad female who looks about ten years younger than she is. I am stupidly clever and earn over six figures (in pounds). I am warm, kind and caring and I love my children. I am a catch by any stretch of the imagination. It's true that I forgot - the 6 months of "you are too skinny", "too muscly", "why can't you do even the simplest things" blah blah blah made sure of that, but the 7 months on my own has made me realise that I am awoafwl, and yes, he knows. Don't ask me how I know, but I do. This awareness might not be enough to bring him back to me, the weight of the past might be too much, but he knows my worth.

I have also made myself unavailable - I go out ALOT. I do not tell him where or with whom. Most of the time I don't tell him at all. If he is watching me on that stupid camera it would be driving him crazy. But this is not why I do it. I do it because I have to - otherwise I would be in my head all the time, and that way madness lives.

I am about as close to a woman only a fool would leave as a woman can be ... apart, of course, from the constant obsessing about my H.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

I am about as close to a woman only a fool would leave as a woman can be ... apart, of course, from the constant obsessing about my H.

And maybe there�s the key. He can smell it.

Objectively you sound great. I think the same things about myself and they�re mostly true. But the one thing we both have that makes us less desirable is that we both give the impression that we value something that doesn�t value us? And perhaps that indicates some deep-seated insecurity (I know it does for me), and others can detect that insecurity, and it makes them less confident that their own insecurities won�t overwhelm them and you (see my latest post in my thread for an interpretation of that). And so forth with all the weird counterintuitive psychology.

So the advice most of the men get on this site is to make yourself desirable by being unavailable. But be unavailable when he wants you. If you�re very rational and assertive then it might not make sense to act �coquettish� or whatever, but maybe biology trumps rationality, and some targeted seductive strategies like that might help? I am the last person you would want to ask about how, but I�m passing along some advice that I�ve gotten here.

FSolo, I can relate. Not so much in thinking I'm a desirable prize, but that, no matter how good I feel about myself and about moving forward, I can't get over how much I continue to love W. Despite everything, I feel I love her even more today. All of her: physically, spiritually, emotionally, intellectually. Tough to move forward while missing her so much.

Hey... if I was a guy, I would totally want to date you...lol. I would also love to be in your shoes although they wouldn�t fit because I wear a size 10.

FS...your H knows you are a catch. Stop the obsessing. Let him be the one obsessing for awhile. If I were you, I would dial up the friendliness just a little bit...not too much. And be just a little less available and a bit more independent. Let him be alone for awhile. You are doing great. Marathon...not a sprint.

Thanks guys ... it is hard not to obsess when I see him so much, and it is hard for him to miss me when he sees me so much. But I do my obsessing here, never in front of him. If he is missing me, then he does it in private.

B - can he smell it? Maybe. His actions indicate he suspects I have moved on. The little passive aggressive comments, the little fire of anger in his eyes which he quickly tempers back down. But, I know what you mean. In the same way I know him, he knows me. He knows my go to when hurt is to detach. I think what is surprising him is the 'friendly' detachment.

Quick side note ... as an indication that I am getting better at this.

I had gone out yesterday morning to get milk and the paper. The paper was on the island in the kitchen unopened. When he came to pick up the girls he took the paper out of its plastic wrapping and started to read one of the supplements. I didn't say anything. As we started to leave he still had the supplement in his hand and I said, without thinking "Are you really taking my paper?". Not in a bad accusatory way, but in a banterish way. He looked at me surprised and said "I will bring it back".

D12 was telling us both about a game on her phone she was playing. It sounds like a role playing game where she is an 89 year old who has boyfriends who keep dying. She went through the long list of boyfriends and I started to laugh and H and I started to explain to her what the black widow spider is. D9 yelled "89 year olds can't have boyfriends". Again, without thinking I responded "Never too late honey" and I looked up at him (for that smile we use to share when we were teasing the kids) and I saw the smile was (it has been missing for so long) and also something else, a question left unsaid maybe?

Anyway, thank you all for responding. I am Ok I think. I carry on. I think I have found a decent balance. Somewhere between detached and friendly detached. No questioning and no disclosure.

Paco - Your thoughts on the nature of the 'crises' and what characteristics got me thinking last night on what takes to get through one having done the least amount of damage. Unfortunately my H has all the classic signs of someone who will burn his house down before he reaches a point where he can grow. I will write more on this on your thread later when I get a minute at work.

Originally Posted by burned

But the one thing we both have that makes us less desirable is that we both give the impression that we value something that doesn�t value us?

Or as I believe the case is with my H, we value something (or someone) that cannot see any value in themselves. They hate the person they are, so can't fathom why someone would want their flawed, unhappy self. Such a maze we are navigating.

So, in the interest of big b@Ils I finally received the childcare schedule for December. For those that don�t know my H works a 24/7 roster (which he has limited control over), goes through it, works out when he will have the children (inc. when he will come get them in the morning and after school), and then passes it to me. I went through it - he is seeing them quite a lot but he only has them overnight 4 nights.

After some back and forwarding (I have plans on the 4th - any chance you could have them blah blah blah) I got tired of sounding like a beggar and sent the following ...

�Cool. Thanks

I would like you to start having the girls overnight more often in the new year - at least a minimum of 10 nights per calendar month. I can see you make a big effort to see the children much more often but pick ups and having them until seven doesn�t allow me freedom to do much more than go to work. I know we have to work within the confines of your roster, but four nights in 31 is a little one sided. If you could give this some thought when you put your schedule together for Jan that would be great. Thanks�

There is a tight pain in my chest and my heart is beating incredibly fast.

I guess this is what fear (or Adrenalin) feels like.

I expect (there�s that word again) some retaliation - more passive aggressive bs. He won�t say anything directly to me, but undoubtedly, will hold it in, and next time I do something he doesn�t like, I will get �you�re selfish�, �you don�t care about your children� ... and I will say (because I have read the boundaries thread a hundred times) �I am not going to listen to you while you speak to me like that� and walk out. That�s the plan anyway.

No response to the email yet ...

Please, someone tell me I did the right thing ...

You did the right thing. I remember that feeling from last week when I told W to figure out her finances. If that feeling were more tolerable, it would be easier to say the things that need to be said.

You fear his reaction, but the �right thing� is the right thing regardless of anyone�s feelings.

The way you said it comes across as bold, empowered, fair, just, confident, etc. Nicely done.

Also you need to start a new thread...

Thanks B - It is people like you (and there are many here) whom, everyday, makes me so thankful that I found this forum.

I don�t see anything wrong with that email FS. It�s just you asking for what you need and it is not outrageous. You were to the point and matter-of-fact.

Thanks DjV - I am still apprehensive. Fear is a weird feeling.

No response on email yet but have just been sent texts with pics of sneakers I might like. FFS !!!

Link to new thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2823928#Post2823928