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Update...everything good so far. Just continuing to work on myself.
That’s the way S! I’m really happy for you and your family.
Sending hugs 🤗 for all of you!
Steve, I'm very sorry for your loss. My prayers and thoughts are with you in this difficult time.
You are an inspiration to many of us. Take care of yourself, too. I'm glad you can stil communicate with W and get some comfort from her during this difficult time.
Nothing to report negatively, but with the move, and selling the old house, and dealing with a teenager, and all that has been going on, we just haven't been focusing much on it. Haven't done MC since June due to the move. We still do date night/lunch once a week. But that biweekly counseling session was another nice getaway that we are missing. I mentioned the other night that once the house sells we'll have to schedule another MC session. She seemed surprised by that. I explained that I learned a lot about myself and wanted to make sure I was still improving and being the best H and father I could be. She seemed to appreciate that and said that she would be happy to go again once the house sold.
I'm not fully up to speed on your sitch -- in my case after BD W came back for three years. During that time, we slowly stopped doing the "new" things we were doing, mostly due to her decision to stop doing them. At the time I told her 'we're going to get back to the same relationship we had before if we don't take action, and you weren't happy with that relationship".
At the time she told me that she wasn't worried about it, she was happy, blah blah blah. Eventually we got to the same equilibrium we had before and she went wayward again.
I only say that because the things you mention about not focusing on the MR due to other factors (life happens) and taking a break from MC, etc. sound familiar to me. In my case, it was easy to be reassured that "it was fine" in the moment, but really I knew that it wasn't, because it wasn't the *new* relationship that I wanted. It started out that way, but then it started to slide back.
Dynamics between two people reach an equilibrium -- who does what in the relationship, what conflicts are escalated versus what gets swept under the rug, how often you have sex and who initiates, everything about your interactions will find a balance point and more or less stay there. The natural tendency is going to be for it to slide back to what it was before unless you both actively resist that.
The "believe nothing they say" is true of piecing too -- you need to read the situation and employ all your senses. If you feel like you need to get back into an MC session sooner rather than later, do it, even if something else has to fall on the floor as a result.
Acc
I'm not fully up to speed on your sitch
Me neither but believe it or not I have your threads open and started reading but I am terribly slow at it these days.
So one day I will get it done and give you some advice.
Accuray gave you some good advice and his sich is one I am familiar with.
Mine not being too much different.
Although the one thing I can say is
LOVE is a CHOICE and unless both parties are ALL IN and making that choice,
your are likely doomed to failure.
Love is a choice, but Attraction is not.
Much of the efforts we do in DB is to remove pressure and increase attraction. Without attraction, we surrender any opportunity for R. Not to mention it is the only thing we have any control over. Sometimes I think we forget that attraction is much more than our looks. As mostly males here, we see attraction as a visual concept. For Ws it is very different.
Steve, I know you realize these things and as stated many times before in this forum, you are a stellar example of how the DB processes do work. I am very happy for you and thankful for all the support that you have extended me as well as the rest of this motley crew.
I have been in a committed relationship for 8 years now after D from my X.
I believe it is the man's job to be in charge of the sex and romance department. If I initiate and get turned down, I switch gears and start down the romance and seduction path. Focus on being more attractive. DB skills working the whole time. Women like to be surprised. Woman like a challenge. I make it fun. I make her laugh. I make her desire me. I wait until she initiates.
Us men are simple creatures and easily get turned on by the visuals. Woman get turned on by our words and actions.
Remember this.
Thanks everyone. All good feedback and perspectives. I realize that I am not out of the woods and need to continue my personal growth journey. Something that I had not done in a long time.
I think some things I have going for me is:
- Recognizing my NGS and working on it
- Doing the right things this time (continuing MC (and we will) etc)
- Making my changes permanent
- Continuing to focusing on controlling me, not trying to control her
- Learning about an applying self-differentiation in marriage
- Continuing to recognize my own toxic behavior and 180 on it
So on the first one, while not full blown NGS I definitely had parts of it. And it did a lot to contribute to my sitch.
On the 2nd, after her EA in 2005 I made a lot of changes. Temporarily, but then after a while I allowed myself to slip back on those changes. Mainly because all of my changes had the wrong goal. (Listen up guys, this is applicable to ALL sitches!) My goal was to save my marriage. Once that occurred I gave up the 180s I made to achieve that. I essentially set myself up for another sitch, and the fact that it took 12 years really was a tribute to my W trying to hang on (and employee multiple techniques to try to fix things), but I wasn't doing my part.
So that is why point #3 is so important. None of us are guaranteed having our spouse stay with us no matter what, but as cliche as it sounds, the key to having a better marriage is being a better spouse. And that is something we all need to keep in mind.
And the big part of that is the point about controlling what I can control. Me! Focus on me, my actions, my words, my activities, my priorities. And doing what I can do!
And the self-differentiation piece is not trivial. The more I learned about proper detachment the more I realized that self-differentiation (essentially a healthy state of constant detachment) was of the utmost importance to a healthy relationship. The more research I've done the more I've realized that connection, but not codependency, is what makes for a healthy marriage. The fact that two people can be together, enjoy one another's company, and have a connection unlike a connection with anyone else, but still have a life outside of that relationship (essentially GAL!). Codependency might allow for one or both of those, but requires causes us to be too dependent on whatever we think we are getting from the other person.
For instance in my sitch, I had no connection to my W. We had a SSM, but I had also isolated myself. I had definitely GAL, but a bit too much. Our communication was only logistical, and very infrequent. Any non-logistical conversations we had were very abrasive. The sound of her voice grated me because of the resentment and bitterness I held for her for being a poor housekeeper, and the lack of intimacy. When I was away from her I hardly ever contacted her, or called her to check in. Yet I was dependent on her for other things. Care of our D, etc. In essence, I took her for granted.
Now we have a healthy differentiation. We can go do things with friends and family, separately, and still enjoy it. But we also think of one another and remain in contact. That connection is there. What really makes me feel healthy is that the thought of losing her is no longer terrifying. While it would hurt and I'd be sad, DBing has taught me that I will survive, be okay, and even thrive! (Sometimes I even have pangs of regret, that I didn't let things just happen the way they were headed, in my moments of clarity (when the fear would subside) I would actually get excited about my potential life after D.
But 180s are still something we need to constantly be prepared to engage in. For instance, I recently realized that I was leaving pet care almost solely to my W again.This was a red flag. I often left it to her. This was a big contributor to our lack of connection since I would go to bed, leave all of that to her. She as a procrastinator would wait until 11pm-midnight or later, and then finally go take care of the pets and come to bed. I recognized I was slipping and re instituted my 180 on this. She does pet care in the morning and throughout the day. The least I can do is do it in the evening and at night. Constantly taking stock of such things is so important. And doing things like this goes a long way with her.
One I didn't put on the list is speaking her love language. And not just her main one but her 2nd and 3rd one too! This goes back to doing what YOU can control: you. You can ascertain your spouse's LL and speak it. Regularly. As in trying to speak her top 3 LLs at least 2-3 times a day. Keep that love tank filled up.
Now here is the kicker, and goes back to point #1. I do all of this simply because I love her. No expectations. No covert contracts. It is simply because I love this person so much that I want her to have a happy, fulfilled life. Preferably with me, but if that means she has to leave me to be happy and fulfilled, then I support that as well.
Be the best spouse I can be. Love her the best way I can. Make her wants and needs a priority (note, not the ONLY priority because I know I have to look after my wants and needs as well). And I need to do this list to be the best person I can be and become, not to save my marriage. If it does that, then great. But the goal here is to be the best H, father, citizen, person, church member, employee that I can be. And let the things I can't control fall into place.
So you are all in on the marriage - pretty typical of an LBS.
Is your wife all in too?
So you are all in on the marriage - pretty typical of an LBS.
Is your wife all in too?
Who can really know? I will say that for 7+ months now her behavior has been consistent. So I think she is all in. All of the wayward behavior is gone. She has made lots of changes and improvements herself.
I WISH my H “got it” the way you do Steve. Very happy for you and that you are doing things for the right reasons. I aspire to do the same. :-)
I WISH my H “got it” the way you do Steve. Very happy for you and that you are doing things for the right reasons. I aspire to do the same. :-)
DV6, unfortunately I didn't get it for almost 19 years.
I look back and realize how bad of a husband I really was. The fact that she stayed with me is really amazing. Again, this doesn't excuse her from her behavior, but just recognizes that my 50% of the relationship was very very badly done for most of the 19 years.
RE: the SSM issue. That is definitely describing my marriage. In the beginning, that was not us at all. But after the kids arrived...at first it was just sheer exhaustion and then I think it got to be a bit of a habit. It was always on my mind, however, but I just kept thinking it would good better and, there were periods of time when it was [and I would say to myself... Oh yeah, right, I really love sex with my H. We should definitely make a point of doing that more often.], but then we would just go back to the routine again of barely seeing each other and choosing to sleep instead. I don't know if I am a "typical" woman or not but for me there were a couple of things that really affected me when it comes to sex...1. Body image. There were many points in my marriage when I just did not feel attractive and I couldn't imagine that he would be attracted to me either. 2. The emotional connection...this is CRITICAL for me...that started to go with the birth of our children and by the time they were about four years old, I sensed there was a "wall" between my H and I and I couldn't seem to break through it. He just seemed distant. 3. My H rarely, if ever, made advances toward me [but had no problem seeing the issue as my fault]. Not sure why since when he did, I rarely, if ever, rejected him but maybe he thought the distance was on my end? Whatever the case, that emotional connection is so important to me. Good conversations, physical affection, expressions of appreciation, compliments, etc... indicators that my H was interested in and felt an attraction towards me. These were rare and it took its toll. And of course, for the last four years, my H has slept most nights elsewhere. Pretty difficult to ML with someone when they are physically somewhere else. And now my H says to me that he has no interest in sex with anyone let alone me. He is numb and shut down. Anyway, I have a huge amount of guilt when it comes to that part of our marriage. I knew it was an issue, for both of us. I should have dealt with it head on and to this day, I don't know why I didn't. Fear, maybe? Not wanting to hear from my H that he is not attracted to me? Anyway...my two cents. I hope you and your W work this part out. I know that the times when my H and I were in sync in this area, we were very happy with each other. Best of luck!!
Wow DV6. that pretty much mirrors my SSM too. You aren't secretly my W are you? LOL
I think a lot of it is, and I don't know your husband or not, but the Nice Guy Syndrome's covert contracts. Men are terrible at this. Where they do a nice thing or two (buy you flowers, take you to dinner, rub your feet) and expect that you will jump them that night in bed. I know this thinking was pervasive in me. Many nights I would lie there hoping she'd initiate for a reward of something I did right. And when it didn't the resentment and bitterness would build up even more.
Your perspective on 1 and 2 are really good. For most married couples I think aspects of both of those are present for the W. And if you think about it, due to #1, #2 is even MORE important. But Hs get tired of being the one to always initiate so they pull back on the emotional connection, either consciously or subconsciously, and this just perpetuates the problem.
I know in my sitch, I would be bitter and resentful, so I didn't want the emotional connection. I'd pull away and treat her poorly, or ignore her, etc. As Dr. Phil says, I began to make that which I feared most come true. After all, what woman wants to sleep with a man that treats her bad, criticizes her, ignores her and is just generally a jerk? Vicious circle!
Thanks for this DV6. I think this is all important for all LBSs from SSMs!
Thanks Steve. My H definitely has the Nice Guy Syndrome combined with an intense fear of conflict which I have come to learn is "any conversation that could result in being remotely upset with him". Needless to say, we rarely had a conversation about anything that was bothering him. He did bring it up on BD#1 but more of an accusatory "we don't have sex" with the general inference that it was all on me. Huh? Part of me took responsibility and the other part was like, "WTF! When was the last time you even came near me in that respect?" I wish I had known about this site or Michele's books then as I probably would have done more to address it but at the time, I saw it as a symptom of the problem and not a problem itself that needed to be fixed. Of course now I am nearing menopause so who knows how that is going to wreak havoc on my libido. Not that it really matters at this point since my H has declared himself "asexual", so to speak. Anyway, if we ever get back to the living together stage, this is something I am going to make sure we deal with. But that seems a long way off at this stage.
Again, this doesn't excuse her from her behavior,
Steve, I'm curious. How did you get her to own up to her part in the failure of your marriage? That's probably a poor way of phrasing it, but I think you understand what I'm asking. I ask because W and I were talking a few weeks ago, and where I have accepted responsibility for my 50%, I really don't think she has, and it's making me wonder after so many years whether I would even like to R.
Thanks Steve. My H definitely has the Nice Guy Syndrome combined with an intense fear of conflict which I have come to learn is "any conversation that could result in being remotely upset with him". Needless to say, we rarely had a conversation about anything that was bothering him. He did bring it up on BD#1 but more of an accusatory "we don't have sex" with the general inference that it was all on me. Huh? Part of me took responsibility and the other part was like, "WTF! When was the last time you even came near me in that respect?" I wish I had known about this site or Michele's books then as I probably would have done more to address it but at the time, I saw it as a symptom of the problem and not a problem itself that needed to be fixed. Of course now I am nearing menopause so who knows how that is going to wreak havoc on my libido. Not that it really matters at this point since my H has declared himself "asexual", so to speak. Anyway, if we ever get back to the living together stage, this is something I am going to make sure we deal with. But that seems a long way off at this stage.
DV6, my W just turned 50 (in March), and has been perimenopausal for a few years now. In the last year she is more in full blown menopause. It seems to have resulted in an increase in her libido! In fact, a lot of our problems were she was feeling more and more sexual, but due to my bad behavior didn't see it as something she could satisfy with me. This was why she started looking to find a job so she could get her own apartment. That is when I came across the statement "Women don't need their own place to find themselves or work on the marriage. They need their own place to sleep with other people." That statement was so profound and hit me like a train. It was such an epiphany.
Anyway, just wanted to share that with you.
Again, this doesn't excuse her from her behavior,
Steve, I'm curious. How did you get her to own up to her part in the failure of your marriage? That's probably a poor way of phrasing it, but I think you understand what I'm asking. I ask because W and I were talking a few weeks ago, and where I have accepted responsibility for my 50%, I really don't think she has, and it's making me wonder after so many years whether I would even like to R.
Jim, this is a good question. And one that, unfortunately in my case, doesn't have a good answer. Also, I am not sure it is a question that should be asked (I'll explain).
My best answer is that it was through DBing. When I started DBing (let her go to get her back, 180ing on bad behavior, GAL, and detaching) I think she started to take stock of what she was doing and how it would affect her life, and our D's life. It would have been easy for her to continue to feel justified in her decided course of action if I continued my boorish behavior and made no changes post BD. It was very gradual, over time that she started to wake up to the fact that our MR could be rebooted, and we could both be happy together.
As with most, she was leery of my changes at first. She'd seen that movie before, and as most WAWs, she wasn't sure if they were real and lasting and permanent. So for the first 2 months I don't think she was ready to own her own behavior (SSM, checking out housekeeping-wise, no longer trying herself in he MR).
A couple of key things:
First, MC. I think MC was where she saw me really taking ownership of my problems in the marriage. Until then she saw it as me "trying to convince her of my changes". But when I didn't excuse or deny my own shortcomings to an unbiased third party I think she started to trust that I really got my part in all that had happened.
Second, when I told her fairly early on in the MR that I had spoken to a lawyer, I think this surprised her. When she asked a few questions I said that if it came to it, I would be filing for D for adultery. (The jury was still out on that really, since it was never a PA and only an EA.) But this was the first time I saw her kind of realize that her actions were not justified. That turning the energy of the marriage outside of the marriage wasn't the way to try to fix things.
Since R I have seen a lot of 180s from her. She is back to making family dinners for all of us. Her housekeeping has been much better and she is making it a priority. We've been intimate regularly. So while there was never a moment where she said "Hey I realize what my part in the breakdown was." Her actions are speaking louder than her words. Words are just words, so I wouldn't put a lot into what she says. Even if she said "I realize my part in all of this" if her actions don't match that it doesn't mean anything.
The reason I say you shouldn't really ask that is because my fear is you are looking for a magic bullet that would bring about an AHA moment to your W. If that is what you are looking for then you will be disappointed because those types of things don't happen very often in sitches like ours. There isn't a lot you can do or say that bring about that kind of realization. In fact I think pointing it out will cause most WASs to deny, justify, avoid, etc. In other words it will have a negative impact on your sitch. Further, if you are looking for an AHA moment from her I think you will be disappointed. While I believe the majority WASs know deep down that what they are doing is wrong, human-beings have an unbelievable ability to do what I just said above: deny, justify, avoid, etc. Plus this is enhanced by certain personality types and flaws.
Hang in there Jim. Deep down she probably knows her own part. If you continue to DB, especially being consistent in your own 180'd behavior, she'll eventually come around, I believe.
If there is a magic bullet imho I think it’s “choice”. We are able to choose our actions and furthermore, to choose who to love. So we must face our own demons and live with the consequences of our actions. So there is no more deny, justify or avoid in our true life. You must find willingness and commitment (ty S!). And LOVE, life is all about it.
Stay strong guys! Love you all.
And, by the way, that bullet has nothing of magic...
Thanks Steve. I hope that happens to me although the thought of being with someone else, frankly, is unfathomable at this point...lol. Right now, I just want the chance to figure things out with my H. But...if that doesn't happen, the good news is if I start to feel differently, I already do have my own place. :-D
To clarify: Feeling differently would have no chance of happening until the ink had dried on the D papers.
Again, this doesn't excuse her from her behavior,
Steve, I'm curious. How did you get her to own up to her part in the failure of your marriage? That's probably a poor way of phrasing it, but I think you understand what I'm asking. I ask because W and I were talking a few weeks ago, and where I have accepted responsibility for my 50%, I really don't think she has, and it's making me wonder after so many years whether I would even like to R.
Jim, this is a good question. And one that, unfortunately in my case, doesn't have a good answer. Also, I am not sure it is a question that should be asked (I'll explain).
My best answer is that it was through DBing. When I started DBing (let her go to get her back, 180ing on bad behavior, GAL, and detaching) I think she started to take stock of what she was doing and how it would affect her life, and our D's life. It would have been easy for her to continue to feel justified in her decided course of action if I continued my boorish behavior and made no changes post BD. It was very gradual, over time that she started to wake up to the fact that our MR could be rebooted, and we could both be happy together.
As with most, she was leery of my changes at first. She'd seen that movie before, and as most WAWs, she wasn't sure if they were real and lasting and permanent. So for the first 2 months I don't think she was ready to own her own behavior (SSM, checking out housekeeping-wise, no longer trying herself in he MR).
A couple of key things:
First, MC. I think MC was where she saw me really taking ownership of my problems in the marriage. Until then she saw it as me "trying to convince her of my changes". But when I didn't excuse or deny my own shortcomings to an unbiased third party I think she started to trust that I really got my part in all that had happened.
Second, when I told her fairly early on in the MR that I had spoken to a lawyer, I think this surprised her. When she asked a few questions I said that if it came to it, I would be filing for D for adultery. (The jury was still out on that really, since it was never a PA and only an EA.) But this was the first time I saw her kind of realize that her actions were not justified. That turning the energy of the marriage outside of the marriage wasn't the way to try to fix things.
Since R I have seen a lot of 180s from her. She is back to making family dinners for all of us. Her housekeeping has been much better and she is making it a priority. We've been intimate regularly. So while there was never a moment where she said "Hey I realize what my part in the breakdown was." Her actions are speaking louder than her words. Words are just words, so I wouldn't put a lot into what she says. Even if she said "I realize my part in all of this" if her actions don't match that it doesn't mean anything.
The reason I say you shouldn't really ask that is because my fear is you are looking for a magic bullet that would bring about an AHA moment to your W. If that is what you are looking for then you will be disappointed because those types of things don't happen very often in sitches like ours. There isn't a lot you can do or say that bring about that kind of realization. In fact I think pointing it out will cause most WASs to deny, justify, avoid, etc. In other words it will have a negative impact on your sitch. Further, if you are looking for an AHA moment from her I think you will be disappointed. While I believe the majority WASs know deep down that what they are doing is wrong, human-beings have an unbelievable ability to do what I just said above: deny, justify, avoid, etc. Plus this is enhanced by certain personality types and flaws.
Hang in there Jim. Deep down she probably knows her own part. If you continue to DB, especially being consistent in your own 180'd behavior, she'll eventually come around, I believe.
I haven't replied because I've really been really thinking about what you said. I hear what you're saying about there not being an "AHA" moment, and her showing you that she got it. Problems I'm struggling with are 1) that we no longer live together, so there's little opportunity to see 180s on her part (I understand I will probably hear about changes in her behavior from friends/kids, etc.), and the kind of 180s I will see/hear won't give me any indication that she's interested in R, 2) in order for there to be a R, at this point, she would kind of have to come out and tell me she's interested in one, and I guess I don't care to give up what I've got going on without a commitment from her to do things differently, 3) she's not one to admit, even to herself, that she was wrong, and 4) a month ago when we talked, she was very clear that she didn't want to go to counseling again. I can't say the counsellors helped, so I can see why she feels that way. They weren't really DB coaches. I'd look for one, but doubt I will get her to go.
I'd love some further input.
3) she's not one to admit, even to herself, that she was wrong, and 4) a month ago when we talked, she was very clear that she didn't want to go to counseling again. I can't say the counsellors helped, so I can see why she feels that way. They weren't really DB coaches. I'd look for one, but doubt I will get her to go.
I've heard sandi2 refer to MC as divorce counselors. At first, I didn't fully subscribe to this concept, but I think I now see the point. MC isn't going to fix MR. Ws don't usually like it because their shortcomings tend to come out in front of a witness. I remember early in my sitch I found a journal entry my W wrote regarding an MC session where she was extremely distressed and wrote that
I had ripped her the shreds. Not that anything I had said was untrue, but that she had been exposed. I could hear her voice as I read it and knew her thought process. She saw this as all something that was happening to her. Not that she had caused any of it. Human nature.
Personally, I remember the MC session as being cathartic, as I felt heard during a time when my pleas were falling on deaf ears. I didn't remember conducting any character assassination as she described.
Point is, these type sessions are bound to happen and depending on when in the process they happen, it probably doesn't support R.
Once she commits to R and all the contempt and denial has subsided, only then, when you two agree to work on communication skills etc, will MC have any positive results. Hope this helps.
Ws don't usually like it because their shortcomings tend to come out in front of a witness. I remember early in my sitch I found a journal entry my W wrote regarding an MC session where she was extremely distressed and wrote that I had ripped her the shreds. Not that anything I had said was untrue, but that she had been exposed. I could hear her voice as I read it and knew her thought process. She saw this as all something that was happening to her. Not that she had caused any of it. Human nature.
RR, this is a great point and many of the newbies here could stand to understand this. WAWs and WWs in particular play the victim card. At every turn.
The biggest example is when confronted about their As. "Honey, I hired a PI and he followed you to the hotel where OM met you and you went into a room together!"
"HOW DARE YOU HIRE A PI TO FOLLOW ME!?!?"
Huh? As if hiring a PI is in any way as big of a betrayal as allowing another man to have his way with her body. But we aren't dealing with rational, logic creatures. THEY are the victim. (Ever seen the movie Liar Liar?)
FYI....after today I will be a little scarce. Going to hunting camp for a few days. I will try to check in when I can, but won't be responding as much as usual. This doesn't mean I've given up on any of you! I will continue to pray for each and everyone of you and your sitches!
Until next week!
See you man, enjoy your time.
You're going to blow Bambi's mom away?
Hmm, Jim, I sense a lot of pent-up anger in you.
Yep...to be honest I hope your gunpowder gets wet. But I wish you enjoy the TIME.
You're going to blow Bambi's mom away?
Eating her alive would be cruel.
I didn't get drawn for my archery whitetail deer tag this year. Might go out with camera. Still chasing mrbig.
Good luck
Hmm, Jim, I sense a lot of pent-up anger in you.
Not anger. (sniff) I still cry when I think about it. (sniff) (wipe tear)
Back. I'll try to catch up on people's sitches as I can.
For those interested.....harvested a nice 8 pointer.
Nice, I was going to check in and see if you caught any deers!!! (intentional garbage grammar FYI)
Back. I'll try to catch up on people's sitches as I can.
For those interested.....harvested a nice 8 pointer.
Making me jealous.
Congrats on the 8 pointer!
Congrats on the buck. I think where I'm at we'd call it a four pointer.
Unless you got a behemoth.
Congrats on the buck. I think where I'm at we'd call it a four pointer.
Unless you got a behemoth.
You mean because it has 4 on each side? In my area this is about as big as they get.
Congratulations, where I am at we would say a 4x4 or a 3x3 with eye guards. Basically describing the points on each side. I am guessing he is a whitetail?
Nope- Bambi's dad. Try to pay attention. :-P
Congrats on the buck. I think where I'm at we'd call it a four pointer.
Unless you got a behemoth.
You mean because it has 4 on each side? In my area this is about as big as they get.
Congrats Steve! Here in TX we count total points, but my friend in Montana only counts one side. And it's the lesser side, so 3 on one side and 5 on the other is a "3 pointer". First time I mentioned taking a shot at an 8 pointer to him (before we cleared this up) he stared at me in astonishment
Thanks! Wow, Montana folks are hardcore!
So while I went from BD (self initiated) to R in roughly 3 months, that is a very very unique set of circumstances that allowed for that come about. No one should look at my sitch and think theirs will happen as quickly.
Steve I don't want to take anything away from you because you understand DBing very clearly, better them most people for sure.
Having said that, IMO you had two things in your favor that prevented you from most likely getting D'd.
1. Your Ws OPs were far away and essentially not real.
2. Your W is a stay at home mom.
Those things were clearly factors in her having a change of heart.
Again, not taking away from your ability to turn it around just saying that it is extremely rare to turn it around in such a short time frame after bomb drop, when the OPs are real and the WAWS can support themselves.
Something I've been ruminating on (yes, I know, a deer term!)
I've seen some chatter lately about the relationship between the LBS and their MIL, or FIL, or SIL, or BIL, IE just about anyone on the WAS' side of the family. Things like "They love me!" or "They don't want him/her to leave me."
Obviously, there is a temptation by the LBS to reach out and leverage these relationships. However, that temptation should be resisted at all costs. There are lots of reasons for it:
1) Your WAS will resent it. In their mind it is a "rallying of the troops" against them. That resentment means that this tactic WILL backfire on you. Even if you beat them into submission with this tactic, and they agree to "R" it will be short-lived and BD#2 will be just around the corner. More than likely it will only accelerate their desire to live. This tactic will confirm to them the reasons that they are living.
2) If your WAS is also a WS they will have no problem removing the person, no matter who it is, from their lives. Remember, they are cutting lose the person they were closest to, YOU the LBS, to chase their fantasy, don't be surprised when they are willing to remove children, siblings, parents, grandparents, friends, etc to chase their fantasy. Also, this tactic will once again, in the case of a WS, cause an acceleration of them leaving. They will want to be the one to drop the bomb to the rest of their family rather than have you do it.
3) It is a breach of confidentiality. Your sitch is your business. Unless you have express permission from the WAS you are violating their confidence by telling others about your sitch. This is extremely important, and will probably be controversial for some here. But especially crossing over to the WAS' family and telling people what they are doing is a violation of trust. As said above, it will often cause them, in their mind, to feel that they are justified in their actions "because I can't trust you". Further, again, it can cause them to accelerate their plans, as in now you've given them the excuse or justification to go ahead and follow through.
4) No matter how much you think your MIL, or FIL, or BIL, or SIL, or the WAS' BFF loves you. They will 99.95% of the time side with their son, or daughter, or sister, or brother, or BFF over you! Even if initially they side with you, once they hear their blood relation's side of things you will be shocked how quickly they switch allegiance. Blood is thicker than water! Don't think you can overcome that love for blood relations with logic, reason, evidence, etc. No matter how poorly behaving the WAS has become! THIS IS WHY THIS WILL BACKFIRE ON YOU ALMOST ALL OF THE TIME!
All of this is the reason it is verboten to approach your WAS' family and friends about your sitch. It will hardly ever, as in less that 1% of the time, turn out in your favor. Just don't do it. It will be so much better for you in the long run to not take that tact. In fact, most of the posters on this board that have done this now regret doing it. Learn from the mistakes of others!
So while I went from BD (self initiated) to R in roughly 3 months, that is a very very unique set of circumstances that allowed for that come about. No one should look at my sitch and think theirs will happen as quickly.
Steve I don't want to take anything away from you because you understand DBing very clearly, better them most people for sure.
Having said that, IMO you had two things in your favor that prevented you from most likely getting D'd.
1. Your Ws OPs were far away and essentially not real.
2. Your W is a stay at home mom.
Those things were clearly factors in her having a change of heart.
Again, not taking away from your ability to turn it around just saying that it is extremely rare to turn it around in such a short time frame after bomb drop, when the OPs are real and the WAWS can support themselves.
LH, this is extremely fair comment! Absolutely.
One caveat to #2 though. She is college-degreed, and though she has been out of the workforce since 2004, I have no doubt that she would be able to land a very well paying job that could support her in very short order.
But yes, those were 2 more factors that definitely helped make her have a change of heart. Though I still attribute DBing tactics to the vast majority of reason. When she saw me embracing our future apart, it really started to hit her that her fantasy was becoming reality....and fast.
Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
Happy Thanksgiving Steve! Looks like I will be spending it with my ex and kids at ex-MIL's house. Life is full of crazy twists and turns, LOL!
Happy Thanksgiving Steve! Looks like I will be spending it with my ex and kids at ex-MIL's house. Life is full of crazy twists and turns, LOL!
Me too - just a slightly different location and configuration.
I agree - life has a strange way of presenting itself.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Steve
You couldn't say it any better,
No matter what MIL,SIL BIL or cousins any family they will side with there Family.
I didn't just lose W, we, me and kids lost everyone is like they wrote us off.
No contact, nothing we where erased.
So I understand and truly felt what you wrote.
And it is harder.
Thank you for your post needed to read this.
Happy Thanksgiving
Relocating this from paco's thread:
Question: Why is is that WASs believe nothing a LBS says, but the LBS eats up everything the WAS says with a spoon?
The answer really comes from the same basic human trait: we want to believe what we want to believe.
First the WAS believing nothing the LBS says. Why is this? Well it is rooted in the years leading up to BD. Remember, by BD, if initiated by the WAS, the idea of leaving the MR has been percolating in the WAS' head for usually about 2 years. After years of nagging, and complaining, and seeing no real lasting changes from the LBS, the WAS stops complaining. The LBS sees this as a positive! "He or she is finally happy with me!" In reality the WAS had given up and is planning their exit strategy. At this point, the WAS' mind is made up: they want out. Over the course of the next 2 years their decision is further cemented. They come to grips with the pain it has to cause, the upheaval it will cause the family, the logistics of it all, and just in general come not only to be resigned to the idea, but excited by it. Granted a lot of it is fantastical and not reality ("the kids will be better off!" "he/she can find someone more compatible, I am really doing them a favor!" etc), but is what they go through for a period of roughly 2 years until BAM! They drop the hammer and tell the LBS "It is over."
Now, at this point their decision is made. LBS starts saying things contrary to that decision. Most of which is "I will change!" The problem is that the time of them being open to changes is past. so they don't want to hear it. In fact, they don't want to hear ANYTHING that in anyway is contrary to their decision, no matter who it is from. I truly believe God himself could manifest before them and tell them what they are doing is wrong, and they wouldn't want to hear it! So yes, they believe NOTHING the LBS says because they don't want to hear what the LBS is laying down.
Now, the LBS is a completely different animal at this point. They are scared, desperate, and in survival mode. They want to cling to ANY little nugget of positivity that they possibly can. When the WAS says "ok, we can do MC" the LBS is over the moon! Never mind that the WAS probably doesn't mean it, and even if they do end up attending it is just to later say "yes we even tried MC". Even after hearing the reality like this, most LBS will still cling to it. "There is still hope because he/she said they'd attend MC!"
Humans love to hear what they want to hear. And to dismiss what though don't want to hear. This is why in most sitches the WAS isn't listening to anything the LBS says, and the LBS is clinging to every word the WAS says.
Had an odd thing occur this past weekend. W and I were watching TV (actually she may have dosed off in the recliner! The weather where we are was miserable this weekend, cold drizzle, very sleep-inducing).
A commercial for Jack Daniels came on. If you don't remember, I am a recovering alcoholic, nearly 25 years sober as of this coming February. Something triggered in me and I had the urge for a shot of Jack (Jack was my drink of choice back when I was a fall down drunk).
It was strange. I thought about confiding in my W but decided to come here for accountability first. Trust me, this was far from actually going through with procuring Jack Daniels and drinking it, but I haven't had the urge like that in a very longtime. Not even in the thick of my sitch.
As most of you know, I am staunchly anti-alcohol. It has been a very corrosive substance in the history of my family (extended not immediate). I couldn't believe how strong this urge was.
It may had surprised you but the simple act of telling us about it let yourself know the way you have handled it. That’s why you are who you are. Be proud of that bro!
Yuk, I’m tearing...
Shame on you man!
Way to stay strong Steve!
Thanks neffer. It happens. I have teared up a time or two reading this board........and I rarely cry.
Thanks lost8.
There is one thing I never want to do again, and that is allow alcohol to control my life.
Good for you Steve. I can't imagine how hard that would be, especially with the barrage of advertising we are subject to.
Good for you Steve. I can't imagine how hard that would be, especially with the barrage of advertising we are subject to.
Thanks Jim! Yeah. I remember two words in particular that made my mouth water watching the ad: charcoal mellowed. Amazing what marketing can do to entice us.
Next time you think "charcoal mellowed", go and grill some pork steaks or smoke some ribs. Let your mouth watering thoughts change to food. Food is all I think about anyways so this is easy for me!
Next time you think "charcoal mellowed", go and grill some venison. Let your mouth watering thoughts change to food. Food is all I think about anyways so this is easy for me!
FIFY!
I'm in!
I've been ruminating on sandi's response to RR17 yesterday.
Link to sandi's post hereSpecifically this section:
Would she do a lot of kissing mouth to mouth? See, when a woman has sex with a man she is not feeling much attraction for, it's not unusual for her to try to avoid the passionate tongue kissing. She'll engage with the intercourse, but she doesn't want to have the deep kisses. But if she is wildly attracted to the man, she'll want a lot of passionate kisses. Some men don't know that, and they think b/c she's had intercourse or oral sex that everything is good with her. Ah, but he better check out those kisses.
Hopefully sandi reads this and comments on my particular sitch. This is the one thing that is still lacking in MR 2.0. Going back to the very infrequent times we would have sex prior to BD last year, I can honestly say that she was a) NOT into the sex at all and b) while she did kiss me passionately, it was very robotic and, how do I describe it, forced? Hesitant? Relunctant?
Since MR 2.0 and full R and piecing, she is much more into sex. The sex has been great. But while we were still in our sitch she initiated sex with a request of no kissing. And that has continued right through until now. I then read sandi's comments to RR17 and they hit me square in the face.
Last night I just brought it up. I've been much more direct with things in MR 2.0 and as I've let go of my NGS tendencies. She seems to think this is normal. That now that we are "older" that it just natural not to make-out like teenagers. However, it makes me wonder if she is just not "wildly attracted" to me.
I guess my question for the group, especially those in the same age range as us, is do you guys passionately, french kiss? Or is that something that has gone away as you've grown older.
I should mention that being the typical knot-headed guy, I tended to only kiss that right before, during, and after sex. So maybe that is her hangup? She equates it to when she would engage in sex with me when she didn't want to (pretty much 90% of our sex life leading up to BD last year).
I should also point out that every things else is on point in MR 2.0. It really has been great. We've done proper conflict resolution. We've been a great team. The affection (both sexual and non-sexual) in all other areas have been great. The only other "complaint" I've heard is that sometimes I drag phone conversations out too long, but for reference she has never been a big fan of talking on the phone.
Anyway, thoughts?
Kisses are an item. Sandi is right on the spot talking about it. It means connection with in the couple. Connection related to feelings right? So can we read presence/absence as a symptom of the state of relation? Or is part of the “get used to” and that’s all? Somewhere in the middle?
Sending kisses now
Never too old for the kissing like that. We are at it like rabbits, kissing and all every night for the last three weeks or so....but remember my W has been drinking for 75% of the last few months. We are still not working on R directly but the sex is there and the kissing.
Not sure which of our sitches is more promising?
Kisses are an item. Sandi is right on the spot talking about it. It means connection with in the couple. Connection related to feelings right? So can we read presence/absence as a symptom of the state of relation? Or is part of the “get used to” and that’s all? Somewhere in the middle?
Sending kisses now
I am not sure I understand? Are you saying sandi is right and it is an issue I need to work on? Maybe when we start MC again after our old house sells? Or that in some cases it is ok?
Never too old for the kissing like that. We are at it like rabbits, kissing and all every night for the last three weeks or so....but remember my W has been drinking for 75% of the last few months. We are still not working on R directly but the sex is there and the kissing.
Not sure which of our sitches is more promising?
I think I will take the fact that everything else has been really good and we are firmly in MR2.0. However, the lack of kissing like this is an issue that should at least be explored.
I have mentioned it to two other female friends that are around our age, one is a few years younger. However, they both suggested that no longer were interested in that kind of thing with their husbands. Both are still very much into sex with their Hs. This is why I had let go of this until sandi's response to RR17.
In the big scheme of things this is a drop in the bucket.
Also, we still kiss....but it is closed mouth peck type kisses.
Agreed, you have more to look forward too as I am dealing with a drunk.
Kisses are an item. Sandi is right on the spot talking about it. It means connection with in the couple. Connection related to feelings right? So can we read presence/absence as a symptom of the state of relation? Or is part of the “get used to” and that’s all? Somewhere in the middle?
Sending kisses now
I am not sure I understand? Are you saying sandi is right and it is an issue I need to work on? Maybe when we start MC again after our old house sells? Or that in some cases it is ok?
No Steve, I’m saying yes/no/somewhere in the middle
I say it is an item to check. An item to experiment. Nothing more than that. But it’s important.
Kisses are an item. Sandi is right on the spot talking about it. It means connection with in the couple. Connection related to feelings right? So can we read presence/absence as a symptom of the state of relation? Or is part of the “get used to” and that’s all? Somewhere in the middle?
Sending kisses now
I am not sure I understand? Are you saying sandi is right and it is an issue I need to work on? Maybe when we start MC again after our old house sells? Or that in some cases it is ok?
No Steve, I’m saying yes/no/somewhere in the middle
I say it is an item to check. An item to experiment. Nothing more than that. But it’s important.
Ah good point. I will definitely be bringing it up in MC when we restart. But I guess I can live without it. She is gorgeous, and I am just an ugly dude......so I get it!
Well, it is said that love is blind...;)
Being love a choice I can’t agree with that eventually.
I am now at year 8 with my lady.
I typically separate the passionate kisses from sex. IE: I will give her all kinds of kisses randomly while I am in her presence. Sometimes with a twinkle in my eye, I will say "Make out with me later?". Most of the time her response is "Of course". Other times she will come in with a kiss and I will turn and give her my cheek. We both initiate "French" kissing. When she does, I definitely prolong the interaction.
Hope this answers your question.
I am now at year 8 with my lady.
I typically separate the passionate kisses from sex. IE: I will give her all kinds of kisses randomly while I am in her presence. Sometimes with a twinkle in my eye, I will say "Make out with me later?". Most of the time her response is "Of course". Other times she will come in with a kiss and I will turn and give her my cheek. We both initiate "French" kissing. When she does, I definitely prolong the interaction.
Hope this answers your question.
Not sure but it definitely made me jealous!
Not sure but it definitely made me jealous!
I try keeping it rated G as not to make too many jealous here
Hey Steve, I saw you wave on RR17's thread. Okay, well I am far from being any kind of sex expert, but I know someone who has had sex.
(joke)
I can honestly say that she was a) NOT into the sex at all and b) while she did kiss me passionately, it was very robotic and, how do I describe it, forced? Hesitant? Relunctant?
That's a good description! I suppose it was like fake passion, as if she was performing in a play. The action was there, without her feeling the emotion.
First, I want to clarify about what I meant about the passionate kissing in my other post, I was talking about when a couple is making love. Sitting on the couch smooching doesn't have to lead to slobbery kisses.....but it might. I think the key for a lot of women is that the man starts off with the lighter kisses and work up to the passionate ones. And, having sex without kissing.....or without open mouth kissing.....is not so good. Does she like for you to kiss her all over her body? Tongue kiss her all over her body?
Due to my first date experience, I was not crazy about French kissing. Actually, I like to start off just regular kissing and work up to the more sensual kisses. The more I am turned one, the more I really enjoy the French kissing. If there is anything
off in my feelings for my H, it will show in my kisses. I may have sex, but I don't want to kiss him. And when I feel happy and emotionally connected to him, it will show in my kisses. That's not to say every woman is exactly like me .
I don't guess a couple would
have to use their tongues, if they didn't like it. But to me, completely closed mouth kissing is another thing. I was never fond of morning sex, and dealing with mouth funk. But if he'll keep it shut, I might handle it.
Closed mouth is okay for a good-bye kiss before leaving for work, or when coming home, even cuddling together while watching tv...….something like that. But when you are making love......how can you kiss passionately with a closed mouth? It seems so...….sterile. You are still young in my book, and if she is saying age diminishes kisses...…...she is not into kissing, for some reason. Maybe your technique has changed a bit, without you really being that aware of it, or maybe it's something else......(I wrote more about this on RR17's thread today). I suspect it has more to do with
her, than with your technique. If she won't honestly discuss it with you, then it puts you in an awkward situation. Just don't buy into what she says about the age factor. You have many years left before even thinking along those lines.
However the couple kisses when making love, the intensity should build. You know how it's said the eyes are the windows to the soul? Well, that's how I think women are with kissing. As crazy as it may sound, French kissing is more personal or intimate for women. They can kind of emotionally remove themselves when having intercourse, or they may fantasize they are with someone else. It's harder to do with kissing, b/c she is literally opening herself and tasting him. It's very personal for her. I read somewhere that works kind of like pain sending messages to the brain. The closer to the brain, the more intense we feel the pain. Who knew kissing worked the same way!!
Their kisses tell the real story, IMHO. If she's making excuses for not kissing...….something's off somewhere. If everything else seems to be going fine, then I suggest you devote more time in emotional intimacy before entering into the physical intimacy. If she likes to cuddle, play, flirt, smooch, pillow talk, whatever.....give her plenty of it. When a man wants to make love to his wife.....he needs to start with her head/mind and work downward. If he wants to make love that night, he needs to start prepping her that morning. By that, I mean don't wait till bedtime when she's exhausted and then decide to go for the cookie. Be charming all the time, even if you don't get sex out of the deal. Speak to her in her love language, and if you don't know what it is......then you are probably not giving her the emotional intimacy she desires. By now, most people have heard about the love languages book. It can be a real eye opener.
I should mention that being the typical knot-headed guy, I tended to only kiss that right before, during, and after sex. So maybe that is her hangup? She equates it to when she would engage in sex with me when she didn't want to (pretty much 90% of our sex life leading up to BD last year).
If you'll read my last post to RR17, you'll see where I spoke of how my H only went to bed with me when he wanted sex. Otherwise he stayed up watching tv. And, after we had sex, he'd immediately get back up to watch tv. How do you think it made me feel? I felt very used, and I resented him highly. So, my advice is that you start incorporating some little kisses throughout the day or evening. Do it every day/night.....not just when you want sex. Consistency is key. I'm not saying you have to joke and tease her everyday, especially if she doesn't feel well, but be consistent in your affectionate touches and kisses. She should not relate your kiss as meaning you will be trying to get sex from her. I think that's what you need to change. She knows the only time you kiss her is when you have sex. So......change things up. Surprise her and have some kissing and cuddling without sex. Are you playing, teasing & flirting with her? You know, like when you were first dating?
I could be wrong about her, but I think she's holding something back. Maybe her feelings just have not caught up with her "doing the right thing" actions, yet.
Steve, I don't think there's any definitive answer we can give you. On the one hand, it could be she's just not into kissing, on the other, like Sandi said, it could be indicative of something much bigger. None of us can tell you.
It's definitely something you need to talk about.
It sounds like you're doing great, and I'm sure it's just going to be a little bump in the road.
I've been ruminating on sandi's response to RR17 yesterday.
Link to sandi's post hereSpecifically this section:
Would she do a lot of kissing mouth to mouth? See, when a woman has sex with a man she is not feeling much attraction for, it's not unusual for her to try to avoid the passionate tongue kissing. She'll engage with the intercourse, but she doesn't want to have the deep kisses. But if she is wildly attracted to the man, she'll want a lot of passionate kisses. Some men don't know that, and they think b/c she's had intercourse or oral sex that everything is good with her. Ah, but he better check out those kisses.
Hopefully sandi reads this and comments on my particular sitch. This is the one thing that is still lacking in MR 2.0. Going back to the very infrequent times we would have sex prior to BD last year, I can honestly say that she was a) NOT into the sex at all and b) while she did kiss me passionately, it was very robotic and, how do I describe it, forced? Hesitant? Relunctant?
Since MR 2.0 and full R and piecing, she is much more into sex. The sex has been great. But while we were still in our sitch she initiated sex with a request of no kissing. And that has continued right through until now. I then read sandi's comments to RR17 and they hit me square in the face.
Last night I just brought it up. I've been much more direct with things in MR 2.0 and as I've let go of my NGS tendencies. She seems to think this is normal. That now that we are "older" that it just natural not to make-out like teenagers. However, it makes me wonder if she is just not "wildly attracted" to me.
I guess my question for the group, especially those in the same age range as us, is do you guys passionately, french kiss? Or is that something that has gone away as you've grown older.
I should mention that being the typical knot-headed guy, I tended to only kiss that right before, during, and after sex. So maybe that is her hangup? She equates it to when she would engage in sex with me when she didn't want to (pretty much 90% of our sex life leading up to BD last year).
I should also point out that every things else is on point in MR 2.0. It really has been great. We've done proper conflict resolution. We've been a great team. The affection (both sexual and non-sexual) in all other areas have been great. The only other "complaint" I've heard is that sometimes I drag phone conversations out too long, but for reference she has never been a big fan of talking on the phone.
Anyway, thoughts?
I had an aha moment when I read this, and it all makes complete sense to me. For the last year or so i did not want to kiss my H. I would have sex, but not kiss. It was definitely an emotional connection thing. He was very much like Sandi described as in he would only kiss or show true affection when he wanted sex or I was always annoyed about something he did/said and I had no desire to kiss him. I'm not an expert but wanted to chime in as I didn't connect the dots of why I didn't want to kiss.
Hey Steve, I saw you wave on RR17's thread. Okay, well I am far from being any kind of sex expert, but I know someone who has had sex.
(joke)
Thank you so much sandi!
I can honestly say that she was a) NOT into the sex at all and b) while she did kiss me passionately, it was very robotic and, how do I describe it, forced? Hesitant? Relunctant?
That's a good description! I suppose it was like fake passion, as if she was performing in a play. The action was there, without her feeling the emotion.
First, I want to clarify about what I meant about the passionate kissing in my other post, I was talking about when a couple is making love. Sitting on the couch smooching doesn't have to lead to slobbery kisses.....but it might. I think the key for a lot of women is that the man starts off with the lighter kisses and work up to the passionate ones. And, having sex without kissing.....or without open mouth kissing.....is not so good. Does she like for you to kiss her all over her body? Tongue kiss her all over her body?
Yes she enjoys kissing her body, including tongue. And reciprocates! But mouth kisses are all closed mouth. Before, during and after sex.
Due to my first date experience, I was not crazy about French kissing. Actually, I like to start off just regular kissing and work up to the more sensual kisses. The more I am turned one, the more I really enjoy the French kissing. If there is anything off in my feelings for my H, it will show in my kisses. I may have sex, but I don't want to kiss him. And when I feel happy and emotionally connected to him, it will show in my kisses. That's not to say every woman is exactly like me .
Yes and this is what is concerning me. We seem more connected than any time since we were dating. There are lots of activities that bear this out.. But the lack of passionate kissing is still a concern because she used to do that and enjoy that so much. I do not think it is anything physical. I practice good hygiene, always have. I a bit OCD and even a germaphobe. A neat freak to a fault.
Also, I should mention that when she was in her 2005 EA, she never met the guy in person. But it has progressed to the point where they were considering (he was pushing) to meet for lunch. She told some girlfriends of hers in an email that she never would have "cheated" (I think this meant progressing to a PA since the EA itself was cheating) but that she just wanted one kiss with someone she was hot for.
I don't guess a couple would
have to use their tongues, if they didn't like it. But to me, completely closed mouth kissing is another thing. I was never fond of morning sex, and dealing with mouth funk. But if he'll keep it shut, I might handle it.
Closed mouth is okay for a good-bye kiss before leaving for work, or when coming home, even cuddling together while watching tv...….something like that. But when you are making love......how can you kiss passionately with a closed mouth? It seems so...….sterile. You are still young in my book, and if she is saying age diminishes kisses...…...she is not into kissing, for some reason. Maybe your technique has changed a bit, without you really being that aware of it, or maybe it's something else......(I wrote more about this on RR17's thread today). I suspect it has more to do with
her, than with your technique. If she won't honestly discuss it with you, then it puts you in an awkward situation. Just don't buy into what she says about the age factor. You have many years left before even thinking along those lines.
I don't think it is my technique. She always complimented me on that, but I guess it could be. It is definitely a preference she now has not to kiss that way. Admittedly even 9 months into Ring there are some things that haven't come back completely yet. She isn't as affectionate as he was years ago. Things like putting her hand on my back, taking my hand, etc. Not up to pre, say 2013 levels yet. Some things that were missing for a while are back. Like kissing and hugging goodbye and hello. Our communication is better than maybe it has ever been. We do flirt and make innuendo. It has been really good for the last 9 months.
However the couple kisses when making love, the intensity should build. You know how it's said the eyes are the windows to the soul? Well, that's how I think women are with kissing. As crazy as it may sound, French kissing is more personal or intimate for women. They can kind of emotionally remove themselves when having intercourse, or they may fantasize they are with someone else. It's harder to do with kissing, b/c she is literally opening herself and tasting him. It's very personal for her. I read somewhere that works kind of like pain sending messages to the brain. The closer to the brain, the more intense we feel the pain. Who knew kissing worked the same way!!
Their kisses tell the real story, IMHO. If she's making excuses for not kissing...….something's off somewhere. If everything else seems to be going fine, then I suggest you devote more time in emotional intimacy before entering into the physical intimacy. If she likes to cuddle, play, flirt, smooch, pillow talk, whatever.....give her plenty of it. When a man wants to make love to his wife.....he needs to start with her head/mind and work downward. If he wants to make love that night, he needs to start prepping her that morning. By that, I mean don't wait till bedtime when she's exhausted and then decide to go for the cookie. Be charming all the time, even if you don't get sex out of the deal. Speak to her in her love language, and if you don't know what it is......then you are probably not giving her the emotional intimacy she desires. By now, most people have heard about the love languages book. It can be a real eye opener.
sandi you may be right. As I said I mentioned it to her the other night. But I will definitely be bringing the issue up in MC as soon as we restart it. Your words have really resonated with me. If she had never been into it that would be one thing. Like (sorry if this is too graphic) oral sex. She let it be known shortly after we were married that she never liked giving, that it grossed her out. I can live without it (not that I didn't really enjoy it! but I get hat some people aren't into it). But passionate tongue kisses have never ceased until BD last Dec. So it is a bit disconcerting.
I should mention that being the typical knot-headed guy, I tended to only kiss that right before, during, and after sex. So maybe that is her hangup? She equates it to when she would engage in sex with me when she didn't want to (pretty much 90% of our sex life leading up to BD last year).
If you'll read my last post to RR17, you'll see where I spoke of how my H only went to bed with me when he wanted sex. Otherwise he stayed up watching tv. And, after we had sex, he'd immediately get back up to watch tv. How do you think it made me feel? I felt very used, and I resented him highly. So, my advice is that you start incorporating some little kisses throughout the day or evening. Do it every day/night.....not just when you want sex. Consistency is key. I'm not saying you have to joke and tease her everyday, especially if she doesn't feel well, but be consistent in your affectionate touches and kisses. She should not relate your kiss as meaning you will be trying to get sex from her. I think that's what you need to change. She knows the only time you kiss her is when you have sex. So......change things up. Surprise her and have some kissing and cuddling without sex. Are you playing, teasing & flirting with her? You know, like when you were first dating?
I could be wrong about her, but I think she's holding something back. Maybe her feelings just have not caught up with her "doing the right thing" actions, yet.
Good stuff sandi. Yes we are much better at the non-sexual flirting touching, etc than before. As I said, she isn't back to the level she was 6-7 years ago with some of it (except for the sexual talk and innuendo). Also we have a lot of snuggle time, both without sex and before and after sex too. I admit to having become a selfish lover like your H. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am....and then right to sleep. But the last 9 months have been much better and more connected.
Anyway my plan on the kissing is to monitor it. And then discuss it with the MC. Thank you so much sandi! I really think a lot of the great advice you provided early on in my sitch is why we are Ring.
Steve, I don't think there's any definitive answer we can give you. On the one hand, it could be she's just not into kissing, on the other, like Sandi said, it could be indicative of something much bigger. None of us can tell you.
It's definitely something you need to talk about.
It sounds like you're doing great, and I'm sure it's just going to be a little bump in the road.
Thanks Jim. Yeah it is hard to say. In some ways I think through the Ring and piecing she has been doing a "fake it until you make it" effort. This could just be more overthinking it, but the lack of passionate kissing and the lack of the full on affection like she engaged in when she was younger make me wonder if her heart is into it fully. There are other actions and deeds that suggest that it is. Ring and piecing, as I've said before, in many ways has been harder than going through limbo! I think those in limbo think I am exaggerating. But now I know why people say the easy thing to do is just to throw in the towel and move on.
I've been ruminating on sandi's response to RR17 yesterday.
Link to sandi's post hereSpecifically this section:
Would she do a lot of kissing mouth to mouth? See, when a woman has sex with a man she is not feeling much attraction for, it's not unusual for her to try to avoid the passionate tongue kissing. She'll engage with the intercourse, but she doesn't want to have the deep kisses. But if she is wildly attracted to the man, she'll want a lot of passionate kisses. Some men don't know that, and they think b/c she's had intercourse or oral sex that everything is good with her. Ah, but he better check out those kisses.
Hopefully sandi reads this and comments on my particular sitch. This is the one thing that is still lacking in MR 2.0. Going back to the very infrequent times we would have sex prior to BD last year, I can honestly say that she was a) NOT into the sex at all and b) while she did kiss me passionately, it was very robotic and, how do I describe it, forced? Hesitant? Relunctant?
Since MR 2.0 and full R and piecing, she is much more into sex. The sex has been great. But while we were still in our sitch she initiated sex with a request of no kissing. And that has continued right through until now. I then read sandi's comments to RR17 and they hit me square in the face.
Last night I just brought it up. I've been much more direct with things in MR 2.0 and as I've let go of my NGS tendencies. She seems to think this is normal. That now that we are "older" that it just natural not to make-out like teenagers. However, it makes me wonder if she is just not "wildly attracted" to me.
I guess my question for the group, especially those in the same age range as us, is do you guys passionately, french kiss? Or is that something that has gone away as you've grown older.
I should mention that being the typical knot-headed guy, I tended to only kiss that right before, during, and after sex. So maybe that is her hangup? She equates it to when she would engage in sex with me when she didn't want to (pretty much 90% of our sex life leading up to BD last year).
I should also point out that every things else is on point in MR 2.0. It really has been great. We've done proper conflict resolution. We've been a great team. The affection (both sexual and non-sexual) in all other areas have been great. The only other "complaint" I've heard is that sometimes I drag phone conversations out too long, but for reference she has never been a big fan of talking on the phone.
Anyway, thoughts?
I had an aha moment when I read this, and it all makes complete sense to me. For the last year or so i did not want to kiss my H. I would have sex, but not kiss. It was definitely an emotional connection thing. He was very much like Sandi described as in he would only kiss or show true affection when he wanted sex or I was always annoyed about something he did/said and I had no desire to kiss him. I'm not an expert but wanted to chime in as I didn't connect the dots of why I didn't want to kiss.
Did it ever return? Do you want to kiss him now?
Also, I should mention that when she was in her 2005 EA, she never met the guy in person. But it has progressed to the point where they were considering (he was pushing) to meet for lunch. She told some girlfriends of hers in an email that she never would have "cheated" (I think this meant progressing to a PA since the EA itself was cheating) but that she just wanted one kiss with someone she was hot for.
I had similar thoughts/feelings about the same thing. I think it speaks of the mental/emotional condition of a woman when she is considering a PA. She was desiring the experience of hot feelings for another guy and engage in kissing. It's part of the fantasy. For me, it was partly b/c I felt so dead inwardly. The EA made me feel alive again. I wanted to feel like a desirable woman, and to feel the excitement and thrill from passionate love making. IMHO, when a spouse is in this type of mindset, it causes her to be more susceptible or vulnerable for a PA. She has let down her defenses. It's like she consciously (or unconsciously) seeking someone to make her feel good.....but she's seeking it outside the bonds of her M.
Admittedly even 9 months into Ring there are some things that haven't come back completely yet. She isn't as affectionate as he was years ago. Things like putting her hand on my back, taking my hand, etc. Not up to pre, say 2013 levels yet. Some things that were missing for a while are back. Like kissing and hugging goodbye and hello. Our communication is better than maybe it has ever been. We do flirt and make innuendo. It has been really good for the last 9 months.
Well, she probably still needs to work on some of her heart issues, IDK. I do believe finding a good therapist could help her.....and help both of you as a couple. Some of the things you listed in the quote above falling into lazy or neglectful habits. If you sense she doesn't want the front to front hugs, then do the side to side......but you may need to initiate them. Yes, I said initiate. Once you are in piecing and she is cooperating and working on herself/MR, you may not need to continue applying
all of the 37 rules you were implementing when the MR was headed to divorce. When the M reaches the piecing stage, some of those rules may need to be tweaked...….it just depends on the situation. We can talk more about this, if you need it. It's a tricky spot, and everyone's piecing sitch may vary, so it's difficult to give a "one size fits all" advice in this stage. I do think the recovering WW needs a lot of positive support, without feeling pressured and smothered.
I can't remember if she repented from her waywardness, but if she did and if she's trying to follow through with all the right behavior/actions......that's good. Maybe her feelings about intimacy have not fully returned yet. I encourage you to continue the non-sexual touching, even if she does not do likewise. You should know her well enough to determine by her body language if she feels uncomfortable with any type of touch.
Your words have really resonated with me. If she had never been into it that would be one thing. Like (sorry if this is too graphic) oral sex. She let it be known shortly after we were married that she never liked giving, that it grossed her out.
So, it was sort of her way of giving you notice not to expect oral from her? Has she never given you oral? If she had a bad experience before getting M, that may have turned her off for life....IDK. I think having good sex requires a positive and healthy mental attitude about sex, and loving participation from both spouses. If she has some hang-ups, then sex therapy might help, IDK. Just suggesting. She has to admit (at least to herself) that it is a hang-up, I think, rather than just passing it off as not being her preference. She might would discuss it with a therapist in private, rather than in your presence. Again, IDK. I'm just throwing my thoughts out here.
I admit to having become a selfish lover like your H. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am....and then right to sleep.
I don't think it would have bothered me if he had gone to sleep afterwards. I just wanted him to stay in bed with me. As soon as sex was over.....he'd get up and go to the couch to watch tv until he drifted to sleep.
From what I've read, it is natural for a man to want to go to sleep after sex. Maybe she wants to talk, IDK. Maybe she wants to get some sleep, too.
Learning the differences in men and women, and especially if we M someone very opposite from ourselves.....is a fascinating study.
Also, I should mention that when she was in her 2005 EA, she never met the guy in person. But it has progressed to the point where they were considering (he was pushing) to meet for lunch. She told some girlfriends of hers in an email that she never would have "cheated" (I think this meant progressing to a PA since the EA itself was cheating) but that she just wanted one kiss with someone she was hot for.
I had similar thoughts/feelings about the same thing. I think it speaks of the mental/emotional condition of a woman when she is considering a PA. She was desiring the experience of hot feelings for another guy and engage in kissing. It's part of the fantasy. For me, it was partly b/c I felt so dead inwardly. The EA made me feel alive again. I wanted to feel like a desirable woman, and to feel the excitement and thrill from passionate love making. IMHO, when a spouse is in this type of mindset, it causes her to be more susceptible or vulnerable for a PA. She has let down her defenses. It's like she consciously (or unconsciously) seeking someone to make her feel good.....but she's seeking it outside the bonds of her M.
Admittedly even 9 months into Ring there are some things that haven't come back completely yet. She isn't as affectionate as he was years ago. Things like putting her hand on my back, taking my hand, etc. Not up to pre, say 2013 levels yet. Some things that were missing for a while are back. Like kissing and hugging goodbye and hello. Our communication is better than maybe it has ever been. We do flirt and make innuendo. It has been really good for the last 9 months.
Well, she probably still needs to work on some of her heart issues, IDK. I do believe finding a good therapist could help her.....and help both of you as a couple. Some of the things you listed in the quote above falling into lazy or neglectful habits. If you sense she doesn't want the front to front hugs, then do the side to side......but you may need to initiate them. Yes, I said initiate. Once you are in piecing and she is cooperating and working on herself/MR, you may not need to continue applying
all of the 37 rules you were implementing when the MR was headed to divorce. When the M reaches the piecing stage, some of those rules may need to be tweaked...….it just depends on the situation. We can talk more about this, if you need it. It's a tricky spot, and everyone's piecing sitch may vary, so it's difficult to give a "one size fits all" advice in this stage. I do think the recovering WW needs a lot of positive support, without feeling pressured and smothered.
I can't remember if she repented from her waywardness, but if she did and if she's trying to follow through with all the right behavior/actions......that's good. Maybe her feelings about intimacy have not fully returned yet. I encourage you to continue the non-sexual touching, even if she does not do likewise. You should know her well enough to determine by her body language if she feels uncomfortable with any type of touch.
Your words have really resonated with me. If she had never been into it that would be one thing. Like (sorry if this is too graphic) oral sex. She let it be known shortly after we were married that she never liked giving, that it grossed her out.
So, it was sort of her way of giving you notice not to expect oral from her? Has she never given you oral? If she had a bad experience before getting M, that may have turned her off for life....IDK. I think having good sex requires a positive and healthy mental attitude about sex, and loving participation from both spouses. If she has some hang-ups, then sex therapy might help, IDK. Just suggesting. She has to admit (at least to herself) that it is a hang-up, I think, rather than just passing it off as not being her preference. She might would discuss it with a therapist in private, rather than in your presence. Again, IDK. I'm just throwing my thoughts out here.
I admit to having become a selfish lover like your H. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am....and then right to sleep.
I don't think it would have bothered me if he had gone to sleep afterwards. I just wanted him to stay in bed with me. As soon as sex was over.....he'd get up and go to the couch to watch tv until he drifted to sleep.
From what I've read, it is natural for a man to want to go to sleep after sex. Maybe she wants to talk, IDK. Maybe she wants to get some sleep, too.
Learning the differences in men and women, and especially if we M someone very opposite from ourselves.....is a fascinating study.
Thanks sandi. Yes i have backed off on some of the 37 rules since we moved into piecing. I WFH on fridays and she came home from the store this morning I gave her a good front hug that lasted probably 15-20 seconds. She was very receptive and participatory. The non-sexual touching does continue, and she does initiate some, just not like she did 6-7 years ago.
I mistyped that last part. That should have said I HAD become a selfish lover. Since Ring and piecing we cuddle for a longtime. We last made love 2 weeks ago. It was bedtime. Afterward she laid in my arms with her head on my chest and we just chatted for at least 30-45 minutes. It was awesome! I loved it and looking back I can't believe how bad our sex life had become. It is miles ahead of where it was!
I had an aha moment when I read this, and it all makes complete sense to me. For the last year or so i did not want to kiss my H. I would have sex, but not kiss. It was definitely an emotional connection thing. He was very much like Sandi described as in he would only kiss or show true affection when he wanted sex or I was always annoyed about something he did/said and I had no desire to kiss him. I'm not an expert but wanted to chime in as I didn't connect the dots of why I didn't want to kiss.
Did it ever return? Do you want to kiss him now?[/quote]
In our previous relationship, it did not come back. I was so angry about so much that I didn't want to "make love", only wanted to have sex to please him and myself.
We just started piecing about a month ago. It is slowly returning. Sometimes I am in such a bad head space that it is hard to feel the love. I guess at first it was easier but as I see more of the same, I notice myself withdrawing again. I think I'm so afraid to have the previous relationship back that I can't let go. Maybe your W feels the same. I would continue work on making her feel loved outside of the bedroom. I wish my H was on these board to get advice.
Something else. I was always bothered that he couldn't take the time to talk to me, like really talk. So we would go to bed, have sex and we still wouldn't talk. I like to talk about feelings. I guess I am working on that.
The anniversary of BD is less than 2 weeks away. And I am feeling some anxiety over it. Nothing in MR2.0 is affecting it, just that it is coming up on the 1 year mark since BD. Even though I initiated it, I just have some anxiety thinking back to a year ago. How overnight my life went from comfortable and secure to what we all go through in limbo post BD.
Just to rehash. Last year, on Saturday 12/23, my W and D14 (at the time) got up, got ready, and said they were going Christmas shopping for me. My W had been distant in recent weeks, but with me being gone so much to the hunting property I didn't think much of it. The only thing that stuck out to me was a discussion I initiated a couple weeks prior, doing some light flirting, about making out. (It had been months (late summer) since we were intimate, and this was my way of trying to gauge the chances of getting some, selfishly I admit.) She made a comment about it (making out) being gross. I then got a little irate and said some things had to "change around here". She responded with "or what?". I said, "Or we are going to have problems!"
So on the morning of 12/23 they left. I had been off work for two days, and was catching up on housework (she hadn't really done ANY housework short of emptying the dishwasher and refilling it and running it, with dishes STILL in the sink (wouldn't fit), every 2-3 days. Likely the two days I'd already been off work, I was very passive-aggressive related to the housework as I was doing it. They left to shop, and I was folding clothes in the bedroom. Flipping through channels I came across the movie "Unfaithful". It had been a while since I had seen it so I started watching.
As I am folding clothes, watching Diane Lane's character, it was like watching my W. She was numb in the MR prior to her A. Then when her A started she got distant to her H (Richard Gere). She didn't want to be naked in front of him. She had all kinds of excuses for being away from the house. It hit me, my W was being the same way. Here is the list:
- Very distant
- Had lost several pounds (she wasn't heavy to begin with, just a typical mom, but now she was getting really slender)
- Never dressed or undressed in front of me
- While she didn't spend time away from the house, she came to bed very late 2-3am. Spent a lot of time in the bathroom (very unusual behavior for her), and just had a "IDC" attitude about most of the household things.
- Very secretive with her smartphone and tablet usage
Watching the movie it hit me like a ton of bricks. This was back to how she behaved in 2005 when she had her EA. That was all on the PC back then, but all of the earmarks were there.
I immediately went to her computer. Opened Facebook messenger. And started to see troubling messages between her and some guy. I immediately started to do recon on this guy and found out he lived several states away (we are in the north midwest, and he is in the deep south). The messages disappeared (she was obviously deleting them as they went) but it was obvious she was in an EA. Saying things like she didn't mean to get in between him and his GF. He was trying to say he wanted her to be there. She said she didn't think his GF would approve of the messages and pictures she had sent him. Vague but troubling stuff.
Also, I found she had been researching apartments in the area.
That night I confronted her. She immediately dismissed this guy as "just a friend". What about the apartment search? "I don't want to be married anymore." She had tried for 18 years. She had never been happy. She tried so many times to fix things but I was mean, controlling, verbally abusive. Everyone saw it, not just her. Her friends asked her why she put up with it. Our daughter was mad at her for letting me treat her that way. On and on. Lots of history rewriting. A lot of absolutes that weren't true (never been happy etc).
From that point until March, limbo. But that day stays emblazon on my brain. Admittedly, that is both a blessing and a curse. The curse is reliving the pain every time I think about it. The blessing is that it keeps me vigilant to avoid backsliding on all of my hard earned changes since that day.
I made the classic mistakes. Begged, pleaded, reasoned, made promises, tried to change her mind, talked to her about counseling, etc. Then on Tuesday morning I remembered DBing, started to read and research how to DB again, and started to slowly turn my sitch around through the DBing tactics that I had all but forgotten.
Wow, typing that out is cathartic. Last night when we went to bed, both exhausted from a long busy weekend, she said she loved me about 4 times! What an amazing turnaround from 1 year prior. While we still have a ways to go, things are 10 times better than last year. Yet occasionally I still get anxiety based on the last year.
Thank all of you for the encouragement and support over the course of the last 10 months. This forum is one of the reasons I am where I am at today!
Support of friends. Encouragement. Prayer. Finding my inner-strength. Learning about detachment and self-differentiation. GAL (I never had much of an issue with this one, before or after), and 180s. OH THE 180s!! This is the recipe for success....whether it saves your MR or not.
From Bo's thread:
Original Post in Bo's threadMore background on my sitch:
Bo, this is the same thing I've gone through. Both pre-BD and after.
When I was single, I had to find someone I was taken with. This led to one huge on-again, off-again relationship with one girl that last 16 years prior to meeting my W. She was gorgeous, sweet, perfect.....except she wasn't that into me. So she controlled the relationship. Even when she was dating someone else she knew she just had to wiggle her nose and I'd leap. I was just finally breaking that cycle when I met my W. In fact, just 3-4 months before that this girl called me and wanted to come to my apartment. Her (now H, then) BF was out of town hunting. I blew her off, told her I had things to do. She said "Well call me when you get done, no matter what time." I said "yeah ok" and hung up. Never called her. I guess she waited all day. She even told me years later that "she shaved her legs". If you know what that means.
I dated a lot of girls during that 16 years, and even a couple in the 3-4 months after breaking the cycle with, we'll call her NTIM#1 (Not That Into Me). Several girls that were head over heels, but I just didn't feel it for them. Then I met my W. The first 2 months the dynamic with her was very similar to the dynamic with NTIM#1. So essentially I was dealing with NTIM#2. My W still was hung up on a guy she had dated for short time before we met. Apparently his ExGF came back and said she was pregnant with his kid. My W told him to go deal with that, if she was still single when he figured everything out and wasn't with her, she'd be there. Then her and I met. 6 weeks in he told her that he was staying with his Ex to raise the baby. My W decided to try with me after that, and within a couple of weeks fell for me.
However, now looking back I wonder if I was plan B. She was 28, going on 29. Desperately wanted to be married and have kids. She even told me at one point that if she wasn't married in the next couple of years she would have a kid out of wedlock because she wanted to be a mom. What if Plan A (Mr. "My ExGF is pregnant with my kid") had stuck around? Am I now with someone that never wanted to be with me?
In the meantime, there were some great girls I didn't give a chance because of NTIM#1 and NTIM#2. One girl in particular I think we could have been very happy together. I didn't give her a chance initially because of NTIM#1. And then she started calling me again after I was with NTIM#2. Asked if I was seeing anyone. Of course I told her yes. This was the last time she tried. I often wonder what my life might be like if I had told NTIM#1 and #2 to get bent and tried with this girl. Very attractive, sweet. She just had one fatal flaw.....she actually was really into me. Not sure why that was such a turnoff to me back then. frown
Hi Steve,
I am still stuck on the passionate kissing topic. I think it says volumes about how a woman feels about a man. I have never had a discussion about it with my lady. I am not sure if talking to your W about it helps or not. It may be your gage on how much attraction she has for you.
Just my 2 cents
Hi Steve,
I am still stuck on the passionate kissing topic. I think it says volumes about how a woman feels about a man. I have never had a discussion about it with my lady. I am not sure if talking to your W about it helps or not. It may be your gage on how much attraction she has for you.
Just my 2 cents
Thanks. We were supposed to be getting an offer on the old house today. If it sells we will be back in MC.
Congratulations on the offer.
I have been pondering the "Passionate Kissing" measure since Sandi mentioned it and I believe there is something to it. It may very well be the ultimate barometer of Attraction. Ask your self this, Would she kiss more passionately if she were in a new relationship?
I know mine would. I mean if we were kissing at all now.
Point is looking back to when it stopped and it may very well be about the same time that we got off track.
I look forward to what you might discover in MC.
We get that kissing is even a stronger demonstration of love than having sex. Kisses are undervalued...
Good luck with the old house selling Steve!
Good luck with the house! I hope it's a full price offer!
So we are less than one week away from the 1 year anniversary of BD. While Ring and piecing is still going, I can't help but think of and relive the emotions from a year ago.
A couple things keep ruminating in my cortex. First, how long I noticed that she was distant and different last year, but ignored it. Second, how robot like she was in dealing with everything. For a very emotional person her ability to just blatantly state "I don't want to be married anymore" is astounding.
Also, BD was 12/23/2017. On Christmas Eve and Christmas she was very affectionate. Now newbies, listen up. It was very very easy to read this as her having second thoughts. However, she told me later she "knew I was hurting". She even was sharing things with me on her phone after weeks of secretive phone usage. She had removed all the apps she was using for EA, and this was her way of throwing me off the scent. Again, newbies, do not fall for these tactics.
Some of you might ask, why was she doing this? Remember, she was a WW. A WAW would probably have taken different steps, but she was trying to have her cake and eat it too. Her "plan" was out of the bag but she needed me and the security I provide in the meantime. She couldn't have me kicking her to the curb in the meantime. (In fact, she later after we moved to Ring told me that she knew I really loved her because I didn't move on immediately.)
So we are about 9 months into Ring and piecing. And the difference between last year at this time and this year are, profound. It struck me yesterday that we were one week away from the anniversary of BD. And there we were, flirting, talking, sharing, interacting, being a couple! (I did get turned down for sex on Saturday, only the second time since we started Ring. She's been dealing with shoulder pain and they were bothering her. I used it as an example of how I changed, since I used to pout, get distant, and act like an infant. (NGS) Just shows that I have 180'd on that.
Lots of family and extended family events coming up this week and next. So nice to be engaged as a couple rather than acting like two individuals with no connection. And yet I am still cognizant of being self-differentiated. If she were to BD now my reaction would be so much different than it was a year ago.
One other thing, at my mom's on Friday night after my D's basketball game (she hit the game winning free-throw by the way!), my W asked me to get her shoes. Last year I would have sighed heavily, or made it known someway that she can get her OWN shoes. But now I am happy to help her and cheerfully retrieved them for her. 180s galore!
Still lots of work on me to do...but I am proud of the strides I have made in the last year.
oh, and still no offer on the other house. Things keep falling through!
You have done all the work and have been blessed with having your family together again Steve, if the first year is going so smooth it can only get better from here on. I wish you and your family happy holidays and all the happiness together
You have done all the work and have been blessed with having your family together again Steve, if the first year is going so smooth it can only get better from here on. I wish you and your family happy holidays and all the happiness together
Thanks sia. Admittedly I am having a little anxiety as the 23rd approaches.......