Old thread (a lot happened towards the end of this one) -
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2816130&page=11Currently W and I are talking about therapy. Fantasies are just that fantasies. Whether it turns me on or not is one thing. Doing it in life is another. She would no way do a 3soem with another girl. So why do it with another guy. She blushes when I even talk about this stuff face to face texting about it is another story. I think she has a text addiction with the oxitocin release of the positive chemicals. She is in this text fantasy many times but has had an experienced partner and learned alot about herself sexually. She says he was like a teacher and maybe she needed that for us to satisfy each other.... who knows. She is running on emotion. But we have had some deep talks and she recognizes this and is starting to at least think and try to consider things logically. She said she wants to write things down daily about things she wants for herself and for us. We will discuss these things in therapy. I have an appointment 10/9 with the sex therapist / marriage counselor. This woman is a doctor and highly thought of. W has said she needs the appointment and has so much on her mind. So she is going to see her first by herself. Then I will see her, then we will meet her together. Hopefully all before 10/24 when I go to Hawaii.
Today we did errands went to playground, out to lunch as a family. Her parents came over and I stayed for a bit said hi, then went to the gym. I have told W my dealbreakers she can not love another man and be with me. She is going to feel a sense of loss having to stop this pen pal sex relationship with OM2. She needs to be in therapy. She needs to tell her friends and family about us. If she does these things we can talk about a relationship. But until then Im not committing to anything. There are a lot of things to work on but we are communicating and we are completely honest. She has told me things that hurt and make me jealous. But talking through them is so much better. We are not hiding our phones or dating other people as far as I know at this time. She has said she chooses me, she says she loves me.
Is money an issue, sure. Could she be doing all this to extend support. But I do not think of her that way. Otherwise I dont think Id love her. I have to give her the benefit of the doubt there. She has talked about future home living together multiple times. So she is thinking of a future with us together. I think she is living in fantasy land with the sex etc. She isnt working or doing anything besides parenting and sexual fantasies as I can see, yes she cooks, grocery shops, has 2 girlfriends exercises etc. But I think that is all she has. We agreed she needs something more.
Now she sees me and thinks Im this amazing man. She sees me as a dad as a provider, a lover and thinks of me very highly. She definitely has some things to figure out. She sent me something on Instagram tonight like let me clean up my mess and asked me to sit there and love me as she gets through it... something from someone else on IG. But she wants it and Im not pushing.
Anyway as far as I can see we are piecing. I can hardly believe it and Im trying to take it with a grain of salt. I cant really trust her. But it feels right, natural. It doesnt feel as crazy good as Id expect not having her for so long. It just feels normal, like I married her for a reason. Marriage means a lot to me when I talked to her about that she told me I was an alpha man. I love her, shes the mother of my child, shes smart, sexy, deep but deeply troubled. We are very different but we have a lot in common too. She has agreed to therapy which is a huge step. She has said she is going to tell her friends and fam about us. I will wait and see Im trying to hold my heart in check... half expecting it to fall apart. I know she has strong feelings even loves OM2. She mentions us in the same breath a lot. She said something about him keeping the door open for the two of them I said obviously Im not ok with that. You cant love someone else and be with me. You cant report our sex and emotional stuff to him and be with me. She knows she will have a sense of loss there and she has cried about it and talked to me about it. She says they havent seen each other in months. She has always been into guys that are unavailable. I was that way when we met, tried to date others when we first got together.
Anyway its like a family again, I really hope it doesnt fall apart for D4's sake. Shes so happy. She is getting d4 to bed Im in her room. I coach all day tomorrow.... Ill keep posting. Definitely not going to text her much unless she reaches out first.
Thanks for the support, perspective and opinions.
I wish you the best, but I think you are far from piecing. I get it. It’s what you really want. I was there before too. Be careful. I was duped. I was told I was a great father and husband. I was told she just needed to work through some stuff and get it together. I was told to just love her and let her heal so we could be together. I was told all these things so she could continue doing all the same bull$hit she was always doing. It was just a lot easier for her to do by having me think everything was gonna be OK. In one of your last posts in your previous thread, you mentioned she was wayward x 10, and now you think you are piecing?!?. This stuff doesn’t go away overnight. Keep your guard up, man. I tell you this because you’ve gone through a lot of hurt, and I feel like you’re setting yourself up to go through some more. You’ve got too many expectations, when you should have none...
Thank you for linking your threads.
Did, hang in there buddy. I know you want to move forward but you have to have to have to have to make her do the work. You've been given a lot of good advice here. Lots of wisdom on this board from those that have been through it all. Lay aside your euphoric fog of what you want to be true and look objectively at your sitch.
Is she moving back home? Is she committing fully back to MR? Are her actions consistent with her words?
Or is she trying to buy time?
This aren't questions for you to answer, those are questions to ask yourself. Every day. Step outside of your sitch and look at it the way you'd look at a friend's sitch. And try to answer those questions.
Did, here's my thoughts:
-don't talk about important things over text. Not with your W, not with anyone. Unless you're locked in with terrorists pointing guns at you, there's no reason to text.
-how in the holy hell can you talk about her sexually with another man? Doesn't that bother you?
-have you read my sitch? My W has come and left many times. The last time she was home for just over 3 weeks. Talking about plans together is great for most couples, but wholly inappropriate right now. She's getting ahead of herself just like my W. And why? B/c they don't want to live in the present and deal with how their actions have degraded the relationship and trust. That's hard. And dreaming of better times and working towards that is much more satisfying. But if you don't deal with the trust issues, you will be right back where you were. Ask me how I know...
-it's good that she has told her friends and family
-do you not just want to puke when she talks about you and OM in the same breath?
I really hope that your W is serious and committed to fixing this with you, and I'm happy to see you progressing as a person and DB'er. You really have made some positive changes. Just do your best to be honest with yourself and her. I don't think you have an issue with being mean while being honest, but I do think you try to make excuses for her sometimes.
Thank you everyone. I really dont think she is buying time. I think shes really Fd up. She has been crying. She got in a bad car accident. She said that she just hurts people is meant to be alone has nothing positive to give the world. Shes in a bad place. She says she is not going to see any other men. She has offered to show me her phone and opened her email on my phone. She is open to sharing each others phones to build trust, her idea to show me hers. She wants to get therapy. Yes she was wayward to an extreme. But she is seeing how unhealthy it was, she knows casual sex feels worse after. She has told me this without me pressing. I found some of this out for myself as well. We both have agreed we want an honest relationship. She says she wont hide anything from me. So if she chooses me and works through things I want our marriage to work as bad as I've wanted anything in my life. Maybe I want it too much. I know
Youre right we are far from piecing. But at least we are both trying.
She hasnt told her friends and family as far as I know. But she says she will. She knows my non negotiables no other partners, no telling OM2 about our sex life or emotional stuff, therapy. OM2 told her to kiss other men and tell him about it. And likes to hear her stories about her and other men. I think this is extremely unhealthy and manipulative. W has always had a thing for guys that are unavailable. I hope the therapist will see me as healthy, strong partner worth building things back and W can commit to that.
Her talking about me and OM2 in same breath bothers me for sure but it doesnt make me sick. Ive been with multiple partners, as many or more than her. Ive had a couple relationships. We have been separated we werent together. But yea it hurts.
Talking about her with other men sexually maybe its because Ive been with other women that I can talk about it? I dont know. She definitely doesnt like hearing or thinking about me with other women.
I feel pretty strong. I definitely get sad and miss her and want things she cant give me at this time. But her saying she doesnt want to see anyone else, shes choosing me. She has talked about future house together. But then she also says if I talk about our future it gives her anxiety.
She is extremely inconsistent. Yesterday early in the day she said she wanted to be romanced because she hasnt had that. Then she asks about my sexual fantasies. Then today she says she doesnt think we should be sexual until she gets therapy because its not healthy for her. Therapy appointment with sex therapist Wed.
She is bringing D4 to me and bringing food, I work 430 - 6. I plan on telling her I want her to be healthy and happy. Id like to say something about being with me when shes a good enough person to deserve me. Friday I did tell her she didnt deserve me after reading emails to OM2 and finding out she was on a date where a guy tried to get in her pants the day before we slpet together 2 weeks ago. Yea shes messed up shes made a lot of bad decisions. And now I think shes feeling the repercussions.
Still I want it all, I want her to sleep over. I want the wild sex but part of me knows I deserve so much better. Maybe I should just say Im not available to you until you treat me well... need to work on the wording there. For my self worth and mental health as well as the whole unavailable attractive thing.
Thanks again all.
Hey guys, let think possitive. Did, she knows your boundaries, so she is going to show her cards...
Give her time Did, you have no expectations. Just wait and see. Patience and poker face.
Did, don't feel bad b/c you want this to work. You are genuinely good guy, and I can see that in the way you type up your posts. You deserve some happiness, seriously.
She is still all over the place, so do your best to stay calm. Detach maybe??? Hehe...
You haven't been too consistent yourself yet, so make a 180 there and be a leader. If it was the lacrosse team you'd be leading already, but this...this is hard. This is your W. Doing the right thing seems like it will hurt you, or anger her. But now you just have to do it.
I plan on telling her I want to be healthy and happy
Ok, what does this mean? And the rest after that, it just sounds like an attack. Who doesn't want to be happy and healthy?
Im not available to you until you treat me well
Simple, easy, this works. I dunno that you should bring it up just out of the blue, but I like it. It's a clear boundary.
I have told W my dealbreakers she can not love another man and be with me. She is going to feel a sense of loss having to stop this pen pal sex relationship with OM2. She needs to be in therapy. She needs to tell her friends and family about us. If she does these things we can talk about a relationship. But until then Im not committing to anything.
That's perfect, too many people just roll out the red carpet to their WAS and as a result the WAS doesn't do the hard work they need to in order to make recon have a chance.
She has said she chooses me, she says she loves me.
That's great. You are going to struggle with trust for quite a while, please read the threads of some of the other guys that are piecing to get an idea of what you will be going through. I never got there, but many people who go through piecing say it is the hardest work of all.
Now she sees me and thinks Im this amazing man. She sees me as a dad as a provider, a lover and thinks of me very highly.
That's awesome! It really does sound like she's got the right mindset, so congrats!
Anyway as far as I can see we are piecing. I can hardly believe it and Im trying to take it with a grain of salt. I cant really trust her. But it feels right, natural. It doesnt feel as crazy good as Id expect not having her for so long. It just feels normal, like I married her for a reason.
Just be prepared for some backslides. She's going to miss her fantasy life and may be grieving for a while. She'll run hot and cold a while, it's to be expected.
Good luck and keep posting!
You guys are right on all accounts. Piecing is hard and I dont even know if we're there yet. W is sharing what OM text her and saying she wants to be completely honest. She won't hide anything from me and isnt being sexual with anyone else. She has told OM2 about her and I in detail... see previous posts about their weird as* relationship in her reporting her sex life to him. So he can touch himself and think of her for whatever unhealthy turn ons he has.
W is seeing the marriage counselor / sex therapist tomorrow. She said she wants to go by herself first because she doesnt want to worry about anything she says affecting me. I want to schedule an appointment for both of us but feel like I should wait until after their first appt....
Usually procedure is couples meet first then each individual but W wanted to meet individually first. I know this therapist is pro marriage so thats a plus. But I cant help being concerned about the outcome of their appointment. How many times can I tell myself something is outside my control?
Mentally I understand everything. Im a smart guy. I should be happy, this is what Ive wanted for so long. But subconsciously Im fighting myself. Ive read a lot and done therapy, I know I have abandonment issues from childhood due to my parents not being able to give me affection after losing children between my brother and I. So I have this anxious attachment thing going on which ends up driving partners away. So I am fighting this hard. Awareness is the first step but fighting my subconscious mind is hard as F.
We have this incredible sex 2 weeks ago. Then she tells me shes going to be hot and cold and she cant be consistent isnt ready to be with anyone mentally. Then distance. Then she gets drunk calls me 10 times, crashes her car gets a ride to my house with random driver, lucky she wasnt raped or got a DUI. BTW - no one has been able to figure out what she hit in her car. Expert said he thinks it may have been a tire from a truck and something hit her at a 45 degree angle down.... I think it must have been something more normal like she went offroad and hit a ditch or hill or something but Im not that expert. Then she comes over we have sex shes screaming my name all this intimate stuff.
Then she opens up tells me all the personal sexual stuff. Showing me sexy pictures, which I cant stop thinking about (FML) telling me I better be ready for next time we sleep together when she has energy. Then she is in a bad place and says she doesnt want to talk about anything serious or sexual until after she sees the therapist. I understand this, its probably smart. But I feel like sht
Detaching would be the best idea. Going to read the detachment thread and some of the original DB stuff. Advice appreciated. Having a hard time keeping my mind off her. Gotta detach I cant let her affect me so much.
Posting has really helped. I know I may sound all over the place myself. But Im pretty consistent, working, parenting, exercising. Im in the best shape of my life and Im a former pro lacrosse player. W has said you underestimate how hot you are. I just gotta back off and let her get her sht together.
Thanks all for the support. Detach, detach, detach. Edit- Actually may be better to focus on being the lighthouse and do a great job at everything else in my life that is not a mess... W knows it already- I have 2 rental properties, a great job, Im a great dad and have everything to offer a partner. Be content with myself and be the lighthouse! (Easier said than done)
Well Did, you know what to do, unfortunately that's the easy part! I'm wishing you and your W strength to put in the hard work and pull things back together.
She wants to put the work in on herself because she knows shes not in a place to be consistent. She said she has admitted her toxic issues (why admit them instead of say Im working on them and not just say I have these issues,..)
Already a set back as I was weak and called W tonight. When she had asked not to talk about us or sex until after therapy. I was trying to get her to understand my perspective and also tell her how unhealthy I thought her relationship with OM2 was- hope she was going to talk about that in therapy. It cant just be whataver she wants all the time. Im a human too and we need to be equal. Its really on me for just being there for her unconditionally and accepting random sex. We're together for two days she says how great it is. Then Sat I go to gym, come back and somehow she's changed and in a bad place when she was telling me how great of a day she was having and she was horny throughout the day. Then she needs to be alone for a day or two. She is definitely an introvert so I know alone time is important for her at this point (even though she never once asked for it during our 7 years together).
I can't just let her invite me over to have sex or come over when she needs me. She broke down, crying etc on the phone. I need to set boundaries. And focus on her less. Honestly shes not that freaking great Im just still attached.
Boundaries... We have already agreed on this sh*t but her word is meaningless in regard to plans. She says the future is anxiety... kind of crazy. I schedule appointments and work / travel all the time. Shes in this loopy bubble of nothingness except parenting and a random dinner / lunch date with a friend.
Boundaries - If we are doing family stuff / sleeping together we're doing date night every week or two. I am going to meet with the babysitter Saturday whether W wants it or not this will give me flexibility with D4 schedule and GAL.
We do therapy individually and together if we are seeing each other. She said therapy was for her when we discussed doing therapy together we both said we need to... again WTF is your word with a WAW.
We do not text about anything important.
Thoughts on boundaries?
She is trying in her own weird as* way. She kept texting me little things all day on what she was doing. I dont really care at all about that BS. She says I had such a productive day... Im like yea like a work day... (in my head- I have those every dam* day as do most people in the world).
After she breaks down like this usually she distances herself. I texted too much. Need to follow my own boundaries. Im just going to try to not care / act like I dont care... until I actually care less - detach. After 30 min she said she meditated and felt at peace. Said she didnt want my world to revolve around her. Show me that man that made so much growth and is patient etc. (patient- she just wants the money ehh steve?). Asked me to chill. Loves is right that who the F wants to talk about this stuff all the time.
In a negative mood. Its late here... early morning with D4. Goodnight all.
Did, two quick things. Why don't you care about the texts of the little things she is doing? That is what married couples do! I love when my W texts me about random little things. It means she is thinking about me. And you shouldn't be texting about important things! (I am assuming that by important things you mean R things.) Talk as little about the R outside of MC as possible!! Embrace fun texting! That's how connection is rebuilt. Look up talk and touch charges.
Also, #1 boundary you did to establish, as a rule for piecing and R is No Contact with OM. I'm sorry but as long as she is still in contact with OM then you are not piecing or in reconciling. She should be willing to send him a no contact text or phonecall, in your presence. And then block him in all forms.
Hang in there and keep your chin up.
You need time, both of you...
Keep shining.
Whoa, slow down and take a deep breath. What makes you think you're piecing? Has she committed to saving the M? Has she said she's ready to move back home? Has she actually told OM never to contact her again and then blocked him on everything? Has she ended all her sexting, chat rooms, dating sites, or whatever addiction she has going on? No, and she doesn't want her family & friends to know about you and her...…..which is a red flag that she's stringing you along. Sorry Did, but this is not piecing. You two may be talking about things, like seeing a therapist, etc. Hopefully, it will lead to actually piecing (which is really hard work). But you aren't back together yet. There is just a lot of talking going on right now. She likes talking about herself......a lot. If you'll notice, everything is about her, and you are like this eager little boy who will agree to anything...….just to be with her. She doesn't even want to live under the same roof with you. Unless a lot has happened between my post and yours, and you failed to mention it...….then what I'm reading sounds like a man who desperately wants to believe his M is piecing.
From my phone sorry for typos. You’re right we aren’t piecing. Honestly we aren’t even close. I need to be more patient. Sandi pretty harsh but youre right. We don’t have our home it sold. She says she hasn’t talk to OM and isn’t sexting with anyone and she is seeing therapist today. She knows how unhealthy she was being. But no she doesn’t want to live together although last weekend she talked about it. It’s just so inconsistent. Last weekend were together and everyone’s happy talk about future houses and our families being supportive then this week if I ask about the appointments the therapist offered saying she fills up quickly. Or do you want to do something Saturday and now the future is anxiety. Why am I pushing or wanting to be with someone who is unstable. I know it’s just going to hurt myself. Hurt people hurt people. And she’s hurt all over.
Yes. Everything is on her terms I told her last night that it wasnt ok. That I’m human too and it can’t just be all about her. She hates hearing this and says she told me she isn’t ready yet. I guess I have to just validate and do my own thing. How will this change... Just back off? My only option is to enjoy my picnic I guess. The deep conversations when she opens up and were sleeping together or kissing and holding hands.
All the connection s have happened when she’s down. And when she’s in a good place she doesn’t want to make plans. Nothing physical when she’s feeling healthy. She stills has walls up. Things are only good when she’s been down and I’ve been there for her. It hurts.
What was she like when you were dating and first married? When she was all in for the R and fully engaged? Was she up and down? Contradictory? Pulsating between a good place and bad?
See we often have it backwards. We think that our sitch is caused by the lack of stability. When in fact her lack of stability is caused by the fact that she isn't all in on the R and piecing.
Did, understand that R and piecing is HARD. Being halfhearted will never never work. She is either 100% on board with R and piecing, or you shouldn't try to R and piece.
When we were dating she was super committed and while we were married too. She wanted more kids up until last winter. Completely all for the R and our family was everything to her. I was everything to her then D4 came and she was her everything. Until she hit her limit last spring and then left in June. I was depressed and a downer so I get it, I dont blame her for leaving. But the actions since then I do have some negative feelings about. She completely changed, she has said marriage is just a piece of paper, she doesnt want to go through it all again- having kids, maybe but not sure.
I 100% agree that the lack of stability is caused by the fact that she isnt all into piecing. I honestly think it would go great but she says she's not ready. I have to respect that right? She has felt all the good emotions when we're together and told me, love, butterflies, happy, really like doing things as a family... But how do I get her to understand? I guess I can't right, it's up to her... Maybe in therapy?
When she does let herself open up to me and just go with the flow its gone really well. But then something outside my control like her mom affects her and she jumps away. I have to just enjoy the picnic I guess.
She is not 100% on board. What do I do... I wont just be walked all over and let her see me F me randomly drop I love yous and be around our daughter together then pull away. Im trying to be patient which is what she's asked for but feeling pretty down its completely one sided. I may have issues but Im pretty consistent, calm, cool, responsible etc.
I have therapy Friday with marriage counselor / sex therapist, she has it this afternoon. Im unsure if Friday will be both of us or just me.
At the YMCA now just dropped off D4. Im doing work after this post W is here gave her a smile and was friendly. She got a text and showed me it was her girlfriend. Without me asking.... She asked if she could go finish her workout I said yes... havent really talked. Shes still in the gym working out. I want to talk but she has therapy at 3 so Im just going to keep my distance and play it cool.
As Im sitting here she sends me an IG post which is one of her favorite ways of communicating deep stuff. Just taking others thoughts that she resonates with...
Did, my point is that you are believing too much of what she says. And even too much of what she does. Is the sex and ILYs and the "positive things" the real thing. Or is it the ups and downs? The pulling away? The asking for patience (IE distance)?
Your approach isn't bad (slow and steady wins the race), the problem is all of the expectations you are attaching to everything she says and does. You are feeling down because you rise and fall with every one of her words and actions. Detach from her words and actions. In other words: You are AWESOME and it doesn't matter what she says, good or bad. Or what she does positive or negative. You are AWESOME through all of it. That's what the picnic analogy is. You are there picnicking and she can come join you or stay away. She can come and leave right away. Or come late. Or whatever. It doesn't matter because no matter what YOU are going to sit there and enjoy the picnic. Period.
Your picnic is like this:
"Should I start eating or wait for her? Is she coming? Is that her? No that was a tree limb blowing in the breeze. Maybe she will come from the other direction. No I don't see her over there either. Okay I guess I will eat this sandwich. Boy this sandwich would taste so much better if she was sitting on this blanket next to me. Is that her? Nope, Bummer. I guess I will have to eat these cupcakes without her. Shucks, I brought 2, one for each of us."
Your picnic is centered around her........not you.
You need to keep DB Did. You just need to do that. It’s about you now.
Thanks Steve made me laugh. You’re right though.
You have mentioned at least a few times that she goes after the unavailable, yet you are up her butt. Just an observation.
Therapist told W she is a narcissistic magnet. That I have narcissistic issues and control issues. That my anxiety is narcissism. FIrst thing w says Is it was good for me but not for you.
My reaction was ouch stomach drop. Broke out in sweat. Headshot.
Steve just said you are too hung up on everything she says, and Did, here you go again man! You need to get yourself to the point where what she is saying doesn't hurt like this.
I need to detach and not have expectations. But after having a bunch of sex, finally communicating and sharing everything its like here is everything you want but oh... now its all gone. We do the family thing and everyone is happy together which is really all I want. Nothing changes on my end but somehow everything changes.
Last night we talked for 30 min on phone about her IC appt. We talked about taking it slow, I guess we aren't seeing other people still. But she doesn't want to commit to any plans.
I keep seeing things about letting go of relationships that aren't working, moving forward instead of standing still etc. Sign?
W is an introvert and says she needs alone time. What I want doesnt matter per usual.
Trying to focus on work and things I enjoy. Reached out to a few friends to try to make plans this weekend. Nothing set in stone. Still having a hard time connecting with other men.
Sigh... what a process. I thought we were on the right tract. A lot more work to do on myself. I want to be less needy but my needs like healthy communication, dating or getting coffee or some activity just the 2 of us 1x per week, somewhat consistent sex / romance. Are those unrealistic? I honestly feel like Im prettty healthy but the attachment to her is not.
Going to re-read the basics of DB and initial posts when you join here. Back to basics I guess. Trying not to be too frustrated and jump to the worst conclusion.
I see the same IC tomorrow. W says she doesnt know if she is going to see her again she really liekd it but expensive.
She had a catscan and $7500 hospital bill from 2 months ago. She forgot to give them insurance card- insurance I switched us to and included her on while we were separated this year. Insurance got the price down $7050 so she may owe $450... her response.. still expensive. I told her those numbers and she said thank you.
Never grateful / thankful / positive / happy. Sometimes I ask myself... Why am I doing all this for her?
I'm back to being torn a big part of me thinks stop caring, detach, let her go. Thats the only way I know how to be unavailable.
My issue is I keep thinking of doing this stuff for her when really I should be doing it for me. Still unsure of where to go from here. Hopefully IC has some insight for me tomorrow.
Did, the problem is exactly what I said on my picnic post. You keep doing things with one eye on her. "I'll date Mary, maybe that will make her think I am moving on and scare her that she is losing me!" "I'll do xyz, and hope she takes notice."
DBing isn't about her noticing. She may never notice. So many LBSs get caught up on this. DBing is for you. If the WAS takes notice, great! If not, so what, keep doing what you should be doing.
So take the eye off of her and put it on what you need to be doing. You'll be surprised at how much more effective DBing is for your well-being when you aren't constantly wondering if she is taking note.
I need to detach and not have expectations. But....
The word "but" negates everything before it. What that sentence says is "I need to detach and not have expectations. But I am not detached and I still have expectations." These are Did problems, not W problems. You still have much work to do young padawan.
Last night we talked for 30 min on phone about her IC appt. We talked about taking it slow, I guess we aren't seeing other people still. But she doesn't want to commit to any plans.
She's right, you DO need to take it slow. Both of you. You're probably putting too much pressure on her and that just pushes her away. Take off the pressure.
I keep seeing things about letting go of relationships that aren't working, moving forward instead of standing still etc. Sign?
Ugh. Quit reading tea leaves and piles of bones looking for signs. We are all about ACTION here.
W is an introvert and says she needs alone time. What I want doesnt matter per usual.
LISTEN TO HER. GIVE HER TIME AND SPACE. You're whining about your needs not being met? What about HER needs?
Trying to focus on work and things I enjoy. Reached out to a few friends to try to make plans this weekend. Nothing set in stone. Still having a hard time connecting with other men.
Good! Make it happen!
I want to be less needy but...
There it is again- but. How about just working on being less needy.
my needs like healthy communication, dating or getting coffee or some activity just the 2 of us 1x per week, somewhat consistent sex / romance. Are those unrealistic? I honestly feel like Im prettty healthy but the attachment to her is not.
The expectations aren't unrealistic, just your timeframe. You want things to happen on your timeframe when instead you should be patient and let those things happen when they will. And quite right, the attachment is unhealthy.
I told her those numbers and she said thank you.
Never grateful / thankful / positive / happy. Sometimes I ask myself... Why am I doing all this for her?
Well maybe I'm missing something but last I heard, "thank you" was an expression of gratitude. Were you expecting something more? Do you know what a "covert contract" is? If not then Google it, that's EXACTLY what you had in place. DROP YOUR EXPECTATIONS!!!!
Thanks AS. Let’s just stop commenting form a while and I’ll copy and paste AS last post and Steve’s picnic issues one. I’m going to stop pressuring her. Let go of expectations. Detach. Not sure how exactly but I’m going to do it. I’m all about action too.
On the thank you thing that was after I pointed out that the insurance paid 95% and I was just thankful she was ok after car accident. Scary as sht knowing she was black out drunk lost not knowing where she was. Picked up by random man luckily he was a good person and dropped her to my house 40 min away I gave him $60 all I had on me.
Still thinking about W sexually a lot from things we’ve talked about. Can’t believe the sht she said to me like she’s been told she gives the best head in the world. I cut her off like do you think I want To hear that. Keep reliving these convos.
But also Wanting to have the deep conversations we had rexently. Such a weird feeling to have her then have to give space. Having D4 every day seems like a dream. Heading over there tomorrow morning. W asked me to come as early as I could. Just going to be happy and focus on D4. Give W little to no attention unless she’s starts convo that’s what she likes as crazy as it is to me. That’s her i accept it.
Yes I know what covert contracts are. I’ve read NMMNG twice. Maybe I should read it again. Or start catching up on movies- Star Wars only seem the first few. Still lots of work to do young Skywalker.
Hoping IC can give me some insights Friday. Last thing I want to be is narcissistic or controlling.
No expectations. Detach. Patience patience. Stop pursuing.
I'm not saying there isn't room for personal growth for each of you. When you started posting about your stitch, she sounded very spoiled/pampered by her nice guy H, and maybe her parents. If that's the case, it makes things more difficult for you, IMHO. Mixing NGS with a pampered WW.......well, I think you've experienced some of those results. It can be very challenging to set things aright. Not impossible, but challenging. The most effective work you can do currently, is to change yourself from being Mr. Nice Guy. Recognizing it is a first step, but you can't use it like a handy excuse. Know what I mean? Go beyond just recognizing that you have NGS, and start working to change.
I can't help but think that your W is lacking in general areas, as well as relational, due to her poor mental health. If she would cooperate with a good psychologist, her mindset might improve considerable. (I'm not talking about one of these types that encourage her to engage in a wayward lifestyle). Sometimes, people just need guidance in learning how to think and address life in a healthier way. IDK, but there are times that she sounds messed up...….like she's been influenced by some wacky book or something. She may, also, be experiencing an imbalance of hormones......which would not help the situation.
You know, most of us grow up hearing how you have to compromise in a marriage relationship. We are even told how much (50%) we should compromise...…. but we aren't told what to compromise. This could be dangerous for a NGH, like yourself. IMHO, NGH's are all about compromising and appeasing, hoping to get along with his W. At some point in their relationship, he loses sight of himself as the man, and his NG ways give way to his W (who doesn't like his NGS). I believe as healthy minded women (not wayward minded), we prefer that our men stand up for what's right...….rather than meet half way for what is wrong. Don't let your vision become cloudy, by compromising your integrity, values,. and the M itself, just in order to be with your WW. If you do, then at the end of the day you have to live with whatever you helped form out of a need that may not be healthy or wise. I would think it's like selling a little bit of your soul, but that's just me.
Your WW has already compromised some things that she shouldn't have......and now she's messed up. Rather than follow her into a further mess, you need to be like the lighthouse. Lighthouses don't follow. They stand on a solid foundation and send out a beam of light. Lighthouses don't pursue the sailor lost in the storm, it just continues to give that beam of light for the sailor to follow safely ashore. Your W is in a stormy sea, and if you go into those waters, you both will probably go under. When dealing with a wayward W, a H who is all about trying to convince her to give the M another chance, or make changes he thinks will woo her back...…..is actually compromising with her waywardness. That's why it's unsuccessful. It's the NGH's same old attempts to appease, rather than actually changing how his inner man thinks.
Ultimately, I don't think you will save your M by continuing in this spasmodic on again-off again pattern. It deceives you into thinking you're slowing mending things. Until she gets professional help with her extreme "anxiety" issues, you will be used like a rubber ball. You'll just bounce all over the place, never knowing where you'll land. You need to really take your NGS seriously, and learn how & what to change. You don't your thinking to be as screwy as hers. So, please distant yourself from her drama and focus on reinventing your inner man. ((hugs))
Thanks Sandi. Yes W is lacking in many areas. Like purpose, work, anything in her life that gives her a sense of purpose. She loved how much she got out of her one IC appt the other day but seems to be unsure about seeing her again. It seems the IC is helping W with how she thinks and what shes attracted to (this includes me, or the old me at least). The hormones thing youre quite right on. She talks about her sexual needs relating to her cycle. IMO she has been out of balance since she had our daughter.
Your lighthouse's dont follow comment is a great one. Im going to be the lighthouse, Im not following her around. Im not doing more stuff for her or giving her more unless she starts giving, desiring, pursuing me.
The IC said I have narcissistic tendancies and that W is a narcissist magnet. She saw her once and is not sure if she will see her again because of the expense. W says she was defending me in therapy and IC told her to stop. I see the same IC tomorrow we'll see how this goes... somehow I get the blame for everything. I definitely have things still to work on NGS being one of them.
I am going to stop pursuit or trying to date her etc. Why do I want to date someone who is so unstable. I dont know why but I do, badly. I guess attachment. Maybe love... I think about our family together a lot, holidays, activities and think of W sexually a lot.
I know we both need to be happy on our own and stable to have a good relationship. Maybe I am sometimes or most of the time. I definitely feel worse when around W and pursuing or having expectations No expectations... When she opens up and is herself we get along and thats the W I love. But that is rare. She says its her intuition or anxiety.... IC said its because I wasnt a good husband or father in the past and if I was we may be happy and wouldnt have these issues.
I just need to get it through my head. W is not mentally healthy. Shes not healthy in her sexual desires. She knows it, she said she cant even think about sex because she thinks about things that make her feel bad. I think this is due to relationship with OM2. But wife thinks that she wants to be with a man while her partner watches and after sex even when climaxing multiple times she says she wants another man. She has admitted she has toxic issues. IC recommeded books like the 6 pillars of self esteem and codependant no more. The WW lifestyle W was leading never seems to be the issue to anyone else - therapy etc. I will talk about this tomorrow. W went on a date had a man try to sleep with her then invited me over for sex the next morning... I didnt know this at the time. That cant just be ok because were separated.
I must be a better man. Set stronger boundaries. Focus on my own personal development. Let her go, stop caring if she Fs someone else after we have slept together and had discussions like what are we going to do for housing- both thinking we were going to live together. Then the next day she is on a completely different page.
She says shes not going to be with anyone. I must focus on myself, work and D4, care about her less, be less available. I know whats healthy and attractive its just being mentally tough and fighting my subconscious to be the strong man I know I can be.
She did say she cut off OM2. She also said she has already done that a few times and was talking to a girlfriend for help to not talk to him. That really hit home. She loves this OM who is sick, unhealthy and unavailable. She thinks he is a good guy but she knows he is mentally ill. Honestly she doesnt deserve me. She has only used me when she needed someone.
I need to be more mentally tough and be happy with the other areas of my life. I want my wife back and a happy romantic loving relationship. But she needs to work for that too. She is at least working on herself... Patience.
Did,
Hard to keep up on all the sitches here but saw your response somewhere else and the similarity in our stories. My BD was in May and she has been with OM off and on mostly on since then. I filed, withdrew and basically have in house sep, so we see each other daily. We had a period of 5 or 6 weeks where a quasi R was going on but it was more of a drunken sex fest mid summer that I had a hard time turning down. In July/Aug I decided to put an end to that because I could not detach and set up my own room since mid Aug and am still there.
She has not ended A and will at 2-3 days at a time turn her attention to me and we end up spending a lot of time together including the sex. I know we live in the moment and it is hard but it is usually just hours later that your brain comes to and realizes that this was just a Plan B option.
I was considering setting that boundary about no more sex, but know that would be hard and she knows my weakness.
Just curious if you ever thought of that? I sometimes feel like it is needed to keep bonding as long as you can keep the emotions out of it, but it is hard, very hard, although I have gotten better at it.
My last question is can we ever truely move on and detach if we are still engaging in sex? I do admit it is nothing but physical for me and have done my best to block out any emotions connected to it but there always seems to be something there and as long as it is will make my sitch difficult.
lost I have been separated for about 16 months. We didnt have sex until 3 weeks ago. So this is new for me the sex part. We have both been with other parties. My W says shes not having sex with anyone or dating so thats a big difference in our sitch. She is inconsistent to say the least. Man the sex was good for me. So for me - no I dont think you can detach and have sex they are basically the opposite in my opinion. Youre coming together during sex youre inside her. Detaching would not be doing that... youre at least making it a lot harder. In my sitch my W is saying I love you and yelling my name asking me to play with toys all this stuff that is drawing me in. Then she withdraws and pulls away, needs space etc. Now after seeing IC she doesnt want to talk about anything sexual until she reads books IC recommended.... I just want to date and take it slow... sex is great but the I love yous and her talking about what were going to do in regard to housing- living together in the future is a little much.
So I had IC today with sex therapist. It went well, Ive done a lot of therapy so I spoke about all my issues. I know I have them. Im working on them and Im much better than I was when married but still a ways to go.
W had said she would do a couples session when she was in IC. So we are doing that Tues. I am hoping we can agree to set some boundaries, date, hook up, but not spend 2 days ago. I will come into IC with some basic boundaries. No future relationship talk- housing etc unless W is ready to be consistent and live together.
Boundaries: No sleeping with or dating other partners. No sexual talk with other partners. Date at least 1x per week, even lunch or coffee. Build trust, work on communication, have fun, be happy individually and together, work on consistency. Limited to no talk about R outside of MC for now.
Basically W needs to make a decision. She has said all this stuff: Im the best man she knows, a great dad, hotter than anyone, the sex was great, my energy is so different, Ive changed so much its so impressive etc etc etc. But then she jumps away after the good times together. It makes no sense to me- I know she is a mess. With this appt coming up there is the chance W will say she doesnt want to work on the R and wants to divorce. Its been 16 months. If thats the case then so be it. I go LRT / black / only talk about D4 if that is her choice. She can set up the divorce, support ends... maybe just pay rent since my name is on the lease.
She is attracted to guys that arent available. She says she cant think about or have sex because she thinks of "bad things". Like multiple partners etc. I dont think fantasizing about this stuff is bad. I think OM2 was controlling and put these ideas in her head. You can embrace your dark side. IC says many men are turned on by this. Doing it, I dont think I would. But I can talk about it.
Anyway, I plan on minimal contact until Tues appt. IC says that attraction will never last long term- unavailable.
Im pretty nervous / anxious but going to put my confident happy face on. I go to W place to pick up D4 after my appt.
I have limited time here but am heading to see my spiritual mentor in a few minutes.
Thanks for the support & opinions
Good, sounds like you are handling things well Did! Take your time, after all this time there's certainly no hurry! Congrats on the progress!
She literally just told you about the other man like what, 5 min ago. And you mentioned that she had said she would be with him if she could. Did I misunderstand that?
I ask this bc you make it seem like you do not understand why she is so up and down. This shouldn't be that hard. This woman is very clearly torn between two different life's. She admitted feelings for another man. And you wonder why she is torn.
I feel like she is giving you the answers and you pick and choose what you want to hear. I'd bet a months pay that there is so much more that us readers do not get to read. We are only hearing your side.
I'm not siding with her but I feel like you make this so much harder on yourself.
Can't you see that if you would back off that she'd come running? We all do but you don't. You'd rather talk to her everyday about her feelings and then tell us that you are going to detach only to then run back to her.
Dang.
I sometimes feel like it is needed to keep bonding as long as you can keep the emotions out of it, but it is hard, very hard, although I have gotten better at it.
Ok I agreed with everything until this part. What exactly is bonding if it isn't an emotional connection? If emotions aren't in it, you aren't bonding IMO.
[quote=lost8}
My last question is can we ever truely move on and detach if we are still engaging in sex? I do admit it is nothing but physical for me and have done my best to block out any emotions connected to it but there always seems to be something there and as long as it is will make my sitch difficult.[/quote]
Probably not. How can you have unemotional sex with your wife in the middle of the most emotional time of your life? Sex releases bonding hormones. That said, if the WAS isn't wayward, I think it sex is great. If the WAS is wayward, just what in the hell are you doing??? (Disclaimer: read my sitch, I have done this and speak from experience).
Dunno my statement was contradictory I guess. W instigates and many opinions were better me than OM. I get it prob not best idea but I have to be honest I am being pulled further and further away each time almost like it is taking my brain repetitive blows to get it that she is in the fog and it’s just physical. Unlike Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football I really feel like I am learning....what the outcome will be the next day, sober. When I get past this and I will I will be able to drop the rope.
Did, IMHO I think you are doing the things right. It takes time, you know that. Have patience, boundaries set, eyes open and expectations stored in the refrigerator (not in the freezer).
Be strong Did
Nef and AS - Thanks your support as vets who have been here longer than me means a lot.
Loves- I knew about OM2 for a long time. I just did not know the weirdness of their relationship until recently. W and I talked about it. She said that if they actually spent time together she would probably have not been so into him. But since he was unavailable she couldnt stop thinking about him. I think this goes back to childhood issues with abandonment and issues with her mom.
Yes I know she is torn between two lives and was thinking of OM2 for a long time. She also still is torn between seeing me as I am and the pain she felt by who I was.
W texts me hope you guys sleep well. When picking up D4 she asked how I was doing. I told her I was feeling really good, she said give the positive energy to D4. Act like Im invisible (issue / red flag - she is in a bad place), I joked that would be your super power if you were a super hero huh? She said she wanted to be off the clock, and wanted to have a drink but wasnt going to. (drunk driving accident a week ago - umm red flag) Id love to split a bottle of red like we used to but obviously didnt say that.
The comment of give D4 attention and act like I'm not here used to really get to me a year ago. So thats a solid 180. It still bothers me but I understand I cant fix / save / heal her.
My IC said that the sexual stuff she is into is a way of destroying yourself. She said she knows from experience and made a lot of mistakes in her past. That W self worth is so low and that is why she is fantasizing about these things because she thinks it will stop the pain.
MC says she thinks the books- 6 pillars of self esteem and codependent no more will really help W. I really hope so. I was surprised MC didnt really come down on me about my issues since I basically called myself a selfish [censored] in the MR she laughed and said she appreciated my honesty.
Yes I need to continue to back off and have. When she talks about dating, future housing together, and sexual things last weekend then 180s it throws me off a bit. No excuses play like a champion.
I plan on minimal contact until Tues MC. Only responding shortly but politely if / when she reaches out. She is coming to pick up D4 in the AM because I have to coach tomorrow.
Notes to myself for boundaries talk next week at MC... not sure if I will have this talk depending how things go. My main goal with MC is to get another session. Going to write some of the below down after getting your feedback.
No future relationship talk- housing etc unless W is consistent and we are ready to live together. Otherwise its just a passing thought and we see how it goes.
Understand this is going to take time for W to heal and us to heal R. No promises or expectations but need boundaries and structure.
Boundaries: No sleeping with or dating other partners. No sexual talk with other partners. No sharing our personal sex life / emotions with others outside of MC. Therapy for each of us.
Text minimally for things like schedule / D4, phone calls for anything important or emotional.
Friends / Fam know we are seeing each other (unsure about this one) - dont want to seem controlling according to W MC said this is a control issue?
Structure: Date at least 1x per week, can be dinner, or just lunch / coffee, meet at park. No more than 1 night in a row sleep over. Balance of family time, dating, sex. Babysitter. Have things to look forward to - visit fam with D4 and a night at a hotel etc.
If we don't have a plan our subconscious takes over- as if we are together lot of sex, family time (what's easy).
Ideally W does not ask for space but instead wants more.
Goals: Each of us improve and get healthier & happier individually. Read/ Therapy work on ourselves. Build trust, improve communication, consistency, have fun (not just in bed), be happy individually and together, work on consistency. Limited to no talk about R outside of MC.
I think something I need to add into my talk at MC is that I understand W has recognized she has issues and this is the first step to fixing those issues. I understand she needs space to fix these issues.
REading this sitch:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2782787&page=10
The IC said I have narcissistic tendancies and that W is a narcissist magnet. She saw her once and is not sure if she will see her again because of the expense. W says she was defending me in therapy and IC told her to stop. I see the same IC tomorrow we'll see how this goes... somehow I get the blame for everything. I definitely have things still to work on NGS being one of them.
Was all of that said about you, without the IC ever meeting you? Could be based on what your W has been telling the IC.
IC said its because I wasnt a good husband or father in the past and if I was we may be happy and wouldnt have these issues.
Was that
her IC who made that statement? If her IC actually said that, then your W needs to change counselors. The IC sounds as if he is taking 100% responsibility for the MR off the shoulders of the W. The WW already blames everything on her H, without the IC serving his head on a platter.
The WW lifestyle W was leading never seems to be the issue to anyone else - therapy etc. I will talk about this tomorrow. W went on a date had a man try to sleep with her then invited me over for sex the next morning... I didnt know this at the time. That cant just be ok because were separated.
She's messed up.
Maybe you need to interview the IC. Perhaps your W is getting some of her notions from the therapist. IDK, Between seeing a MC, sex therapist, your IC and her IC...…..it's confusing to keep up.
At this point IC / MC is the sex therapist. W was into seeing her because of her sexual issues. Then when they met she barely talked about them / the present and talked about past. Therapist is a dr in sex therapy and a family therapist. These are W words to me, not IC words. So obviously jaded. After meeting me the therapist has a very different opinion. When I told her some of the things W did like the date then sleeping with me the next day and sending the same half pic in underwear to me and another man therapist changed her tune. W does a good job of presenting herself of this great person... still fools me sometimes. Yes she is messed up. She knows it at this point.
On therapists- I have another spiritual mentor who is an intuitive energy person. She is basically for my self esteem, personal growth and spirituality. I also use a separate IC who is a family therapist I see as needed.
Boudaries talk tomorrow 1pm marriage counseling - sex therapist. This woman is highly accoladed (yoursexdoc.com). I like her so far and know another couple she has been great for.
Points for MC tomorrow:
W has recognized she has issues and this is the first step to fixing those issues. I understand she needs time and space to fix these issues. It is going to take time for W to heal and us to heal R. No promises or expectations but need boundaries and structure. We operate based on on our subconscious mind if we don't have a schedule / boundaries / a plan.
First step is being aware of subconscious mind (inner child). My subconscious tells me I dont deserve to be happy or loved because I was not as a child. I am aware of it and have taken steps to change... W notices with my positive energy.
W subconscious tells her she does not deserve love / happiness / low self worth because of childhood - abusive mother. W seems to completely operate on subconscious or as she calls it- intuition. Makes her want men that are unavailable, that have issues and will lead to her not being loved and happy. Example - when her conscious mind is in control - Im happy with H and D4 I want to be romanced. Then something happens in life - parents visit and subconscious mind reacts - Im in a bad place I push you away and am unsure if I want the things that actually make me happy.
I will say these things briefly and let MC / W respond.
Boundaries: No sleeping with or dating other partners. No sexual talk with other partners. No sharing our personal sex life / emotions with others outside of MC. Therapy for each of us.
Text minimally for things like schedule / D4, phone calls for anything important or emotional.
Friends / Fam know we are seeing each other (unsure about this one) - dont want to seem controlling according to W MC said this is a control issue?
Structure: Date at least 1x per week, can be dinner, or just lunch / coffee, meet at park. No more than 1 night in a row sleep over. Balance of family time, dating, sex. Babysitter. Have things to look forward to - visit fam with D4 and a night at a hotel etc (this could happen Saturday with my parents available / wanting to have D4)
Sex- fun, healthy to be open to talking about what we like, desires etc. How to have a healthy sex life in our sitch?
If we don't have a plan our subconscious takes over- as if we are together lot of sex, family time (what's easy). Prioritize a plan.
Ideally W does not ask for space but instead wants more time together because of schedule and making time apart a priority as much as time together.
Goals: Each of us improve and get healthier & happier individually. Read/ Therapy work on ourselves. Build trust, improve communication, consistency, have fun (not just in bed), be happy individually and together, work on consistency. Limited to no talk about R outside of MC.
Im thinking about this too much. Its controlling. And its been keeping me up at night...
Yesterday W was at my house with D4 as I worked until 630pm. They had picked up dinner for us. W asked about me having wine. Said she would of stayed over if it wasnt for dog being home alone all day. She mentioned she'd like to hang out by the fire... I had gotten firewood.
So I invited her over tonight. Probably a mistake... she said she was trying to be be productive but was frustrated. She can't really be produtive because she has no job. And cant retake her soil scientist test for some amount of time. She said she was going to read the book MC had recommended for a while then ponder.
I want to have fun and be happy together. Tired of trying to spend time together. She said all these great things about me last week. It doesnt make sense but I guess shes just messed up / all over the place and I shouldnt focus on her so much.
When I have d4 half the time and work 2-3 nights per week it doesnt leave much time for GAL.
Did, I would focus on you, what the IC says you should do, and just self improvement.
Also, stop making excuses:
"When I have d4 half the time and work 2-3 nights per week it doesnt leave much time for GAL."
Excuse.
Been losing sleep over my sitch. Heading to mC shortly. Could use some support
Been losing sleep over my sitch. Heading to mC shortly. Could use some support
That is rough. Been there. The lack of sleep is the worst.
All I can say is that those that struggle the worst are those that do GAL the worst. Stay busy.
Try some meditation. As Steve says, focus on yourself. Possitive attitude. Use your time, release the pressure.
You are in a good place Did. Avoid mind games.
Be strong.
Been losing sleep over my sitch. Heading to mC shortly. Could use some support
Did, in reading your previous post it seems clear that your W has some very serious mental health issues. This in particular:
W subconscious tells her she does not deserve love / happiness / low self worth because of childhood - abusive mother. W seems to completely operate on subconscious or as she calls it- intuition. Makes her want men that are unavailable, that have issues and will lead to her not being loved and happy. Example - when her conscious mind is in control - Im happy with H and D4 I want to be romanced. Then something happens in life - parents visit and subconscious mind reacts - Im in a bad place I push you away and am unsure if I want the things that actually make me happy.
I think what you should take away from this is she has a lot of work to do, and it doesn't involve changes that you need to make (other than listening and validating). It's going to take time, so you need to be patient! I sense that you just want everything to go back to "normal" but that's not going to happen. Instead, you are in the process of establishing a "new normal" and that may not be sorted out for months because of the issues your W is going through with IC.
Structure: Date at least 1x per week, can be dinner, or just lunch / coffee, meet at park. No more than 1 night in a row sleep over. Balance of family time, dating, sex. Babysitter. Have things to look forward to - visit fam with D4 and a night at a hotel etc (this could happen Saturday with my parents available / wanting to have D4)
That sounds like a reasonable plan. Remember you've still got to give your W plenty of time and space so don't get too upset about not seeing much of her.
Goals: Each of us improve and get healthier & happier individually. Read/ Therapy work on ourselves. Build trust, improve communication, consistency, have fun (not just in bed), be happy individually and together, work on consistency. Limited to no talk about R outside of MC.
That all sounds good, maybe you should write this down/ print it out for reference to remind yourself what your goals are and to keep your eyes in that direction. But most of all- patience, patience, patience!
From phones sorry for typos. Thanks Steve, Nef and AS. I had MC earlier today. I had written my boundaries etc in my journal. I talked about subconscious a bit how W childhood and low self worth didn’t allow her to be happy. Going for bad guys all the sexual destructive stuff. MC didn’t disagree but said there were levels and we had to start at the surface / base. Friendship, respect. W crying as she does in therapy. I feel bad.
You’re right about patience and that I have to get used to a new normal. MC recommended 1 date every week w said too much and got wild anxious anxious look in eyes so then it became every 2 weeks. One of my main goals was to have another MC session. We have 1 scheduled for Nov 1. MC said I may need to set boundaries on time. But she said to expect at least 6-8 months. We are supposed to date as friends first. No talking about R outside of MC for now. No texting about anything important. All things I wanted that MC said without me saying them first. I didn’t want to control the session. She said W has to work on forgiveness a lot. I have to not text basically don’t push her away. I’m in the best shale of my life so I’ll probably hit the gym. Been doing yoga.
I feel like I may lose my feelings for her with all this time. After being together now no contact and no sex. I know it may be all for financial support and I may bring that up next session. I mentioned in My Ic appt with MC. Also may mention w needs to work. Idk if we D she gets support anyway. MC also mentioned that in my previous IC appt.
We slept together over two different two day periods and had sex like 8-10 times. Now we’re supposed to be friends. I mentioned how sexual W was last week and that I liked that side of her. And that I’m very sexual. MC said masturbating for a while Wont kill you. Kinda funny. Kinda wish we could do this and still Ben intimate.
I’m going to Be a man she’d be a a fool to leave and probably just not going to talk to her For the most part. I drove us to MC and did some work on comp at w house after picking up d4. Listened to her talk responded kindly but just didn’t my own thing. In MC i asked her what my main goal was or what was most important to me and w said us being married and together I said no each of us being happy and healthy individually. At her house she rubbed my head and neck for a bit I kissed her neck goodbye. But didn’t say anything. No contact since.
I want W back but she does need time to improve her mental health. She doesn’t have anything except d4... and my support I guess. W saw she wasn’t being healthy was depressed and all the things AS mentioned above. She was making bad decisions. I’m glad we’re in therapy. She says she only really wants To have sex when she’s ovulating. Which is like a week after her period. Understand the hormones but she’s A mess only operating off emotion. She admitted she had been lying to me the whole separation. Said because I was doing things that made her uncomfortable like getting her valentine day gift when I was dating someone else. After MC I asked if I can trust her. I guess I’ll give her the benefit of the doubt for now.
It’s a weird feeling. Really nothing I can do for sitch. Idk what to do I guess be patient And work on myself is all I can do. I go to Hawaii next week for 5 days which couldn’t be better timing. . Had a great tryout with 60 kids for a lacrosse team tonight. Trying to keep my head up and focus on everything’s besides w. We both like MC and I guess we will try to do it the healthy way after doing everything wrong for 16 months.
We slept together over two different two day periods and had sex like 8-10 times. Now we’re supposed to be friends. I mentioned how sexual W was last week and that I liked that side of her. And that I’m very sexual. MC said masturbating for a while Wont kill you. Kinda funny. Kinda wish we could do this and still Ben intimate.
That's about the [censored] $h!+ I've heard in a while. Who said it would kill you? You made a very valid point that your W was just "more than friends" and the whole "take it slow" thing gets thrown out the window when it's convenient for her. She should be accommodating you as much (or close to as much) as you accommodate her. But she doesn't so you feel like this is BS. And you should.
W said us being married and together
So why don't her actions match up to this? Put your money where your mouth is sister!
She admitted she had been lying to me the whole separation
Two lines later:
I guess I’ll give her the benefit of the doubt for now
She's lying, but you'll trust her? It probably sounds a little different now, but that's ok. I say things out loud to someone, and then I'm like "OK, WTH did I just say?". We all do it.
I think you GAL, and keep it real with your W and MC. Don't let them skate on BS like I pointed out. Don't be afraid to be honest. You don't have to mention every little thing that comes to mind, but kill the NGS. Keep working on it! Getting rid of NGS is a process for you and me both!
Maybe a typo or I wrote it wrong in my post. She thought the most important thing to me was us being together and married (she didn't say that) but its actually each of us being healthy and happy individually. For two reasons- thats whats most important and also because thats the only way we can have a good relationship.
The lying to me the whole separation. W explained its none of my business in the past but she lied instead so we didnt fight. Obviously this is wrong and I think she has a different case of NGS - caring too much about what other people thing, guilt for not being able to please everyone etc. Anyway at this point we are closer to on the same page than we've been in a long time. Although not anywhere near a R... W said she would divorce over marry at this point because she couldnt keep it together to be married to me or anyone right now. But 4-5 months ago W gave it a 5% chance to R... now she seems to be closer to 50%.
MC doesnt take sht. She basically said all that has to stop for now because its too confusing - sex, texting all the time etc. Back and forth and pursuit / distance isnt good for anyone. Especially me- sht hurts. + W needs to figure out what she wants. And actually have time and space to do that. MC said W needs to work on forgiveness, and both of us need to work on respect and boundaries. I need to really give her space (Duh). So Im trying to do that.
I definitely feel worse when Im alone. W and I are different in this regard, I like being around people it gives me energy. I did talk about this in MC knowing that W thought we were too different... really I think its ok to be different she may want to get lunch with 1 friend while I want to coach and be around 60 kids... we get our needs met through others. I have been reaching out to friends and reconnected with an old friend and roommate. He and I are going to get lunch every week or two so Im really looking forward to rebuilding that friendship.
Back to being alone, I think the #1 biggest thing is D4. Its like a part of me is missing when I dont have her. When I know Im not going to see her for 3 nights, not the one to pick her up from school etc. The next part is obviously wanting my needs met. My love language is physical touch and quality time which go hand in hand... having that so recently with W makes the absence feel even greater when the tank is on low. I think some of my issues with being alone go back to childhood abandonment issues. Im aware of it, and need to continue to work on it. Basically just do whatever Im scared of. So I havent looked to do anything but be alone the last two days. Tomorrow I have a bunch of meetings and work night again.
Sent W schedule waiting for response on that. Fri I am off all day, will get D4 after school but have to coach 930AM Sat. So its really up to W if she wants overnight because she will have to get / meet for D4 early Sat. I will push to have her w me if needed but she will probably want time alone.
We did talk on the phone just a bit ago. W posted a selfie on IG and I made a mistake of asking her if she was looking for attention from all her IG guys... we both have some friends on there weve dated... I think next therapy appt I talk about unfriending these people... actually maybe I just do it first?
I asked W if she wants to do lunch or go to a park Fri or Sat (my parents want to come up to see D4). I could also do Mon... then I go away midweek next week. Id like to have one of these friend dates or whatever the fck go well before I leave for my trip.
Did, your sitch is so so ADHD to me! Jumping from one thing to the next very fast. People have told you to slow down before, I think that is very good advice in your sitch. You are constantly going 100 MPH. Stop. Breathe. Let things settle down.
Your W continues to yo-yo you, and you continue to go up and down on the string like a good soldier.
You have a problem being alone, so don't! GAL like a madman. Also continue to detach. You just haven't done enough work in that regard, it shows in every action and post. Seriously, asking her about her IG selfie?!? Dude, you are advanced enough in your sitch to know better than that. Your impulsiveness will kill you.
Every time you give into impulse you set yourself back. You send a message to her that she still has you on a string. That her support is secure for another month. That she can do whatever she wants, and then throw you an occasional bone to set the hook again.
Your C sounds like a decent one. So rely on them for a lot of this. But be sure you are staying busy, GAL, and working on detachment. Everything else is bad and will not get you where you need to be.
Steve - agree. Thanks for the repetitive advice and still being there. Detachment is 100% a focus of mine moving forward.
Yes sorry if it gets repetitive. I'm usually reacting to your latest posts. You've got this though. Just keep working.
W and I have lunch date planned for Fri. Going to have a few topics ready for quality conversation. Pretty low on expectations at this point in regard to actually having full R. I guess Im a doer and in this I cant really do anything to make it happen. Patience / detachment... going to reread detachment.
Asked MC for book recommendations. Any books you guys recommend... divorce remedy? Ha... No more mr nice guy again for the 3rd time...... I got the first one below.
The Subtle Art of Not Giving A Fck by Manson is a phenomenal book so grab that one (it’s a serious psychology book)
The Universe Has Your Back by Bernstein
The Angry Therapists book is great too
A No BS guide to finding and living your truth
Ask and it is Given is phenomenal (but more spiritual than anything else-)
By Esther and Jerry Hicks
Unmedicated by Madisyn Taylor is pretty awesome too-
Did, work on yourself to get into amoafwl. W must do her work by herself.
No pressures, you both need to take your time. No expectatives, avoid thoughts that make you anxious.
Above all: patience.
What are your hobbies? Do you have friends? Join a group! Fill up the tank yourself, and don't rely on your W to do so. Join a group fitness class, book club, anything. You say that the most important is being happy as individuals, but you seem to completely work off your wife, being with her, the moods she is in, and what she does.
Actions!
IMHO, the two of you need to heal as individuals before you can heal as a couple. There appears to be a lot of counseling. No wonder you can't clear your head! When a person has various sources of counseling, it's bound to lead to confusion at some point. Know what I mean? One counselor is going to advise you to do one thing, the other counselor will advise you differently, and you come to the board and may hear yet another avenue of advice...…..so, a person can have too much.
Listen, I know you desperately want to resume your life with your W. I'm not saying it will never happen. I'm saying that she needs to heal as an individual, and to do it apart from you and the MR. Otherwise, it's all enmeshed together and she will continue to see you & the MR as her problem.
I'm going to say this once more, and then I'm through b/c you are going to butt with your own head. Stay away from her, and stop communicating except when it directly concerns the child. Give her space, whether or not she asks for it. Give her freedom and time to deal with whatever issues she has that is not connected to you/MR. Once she heals, then the two of you can go to MC for guidance through piecing.
Having a date night once a week, and having a "sleepover" weekly is not giving her space. Having lunch dates is not giving her space. Responding to texts that are not regarding the child, is not giving her space. Her texts are mostly about "her", not the child. In the past, you would attempt pulling away, but you have NGS and couldn't resist. Tell her you are setting her free. Tell her not to contact you unless it is regarding the child. Then start healing and growing as an individual, and I suggest you not become involved with another lady, due to your own vulnerability. If you decide you don't want to rebuild a MR with your W, then get a D before you begin dating. As long as you see yourself giving her time and space to heal, and as long as you are hoping the MR can resume...….then don't proceed with a D, and don't engage in dating.
These are tough decisions, but I believe it is the only way the M has hope for the future.
You seriously need to learn how to address your NGS.
Get the NMMNG book! I can send you mine! Very eye opening....have to stop the actions of a NG. All I see is myself waiting under the table for the scraps to fall like my two dogs do. Makes you want to kick your own ars to change asap.
I will read NMMNG again, slowly and take notes and make sure it sinks in more. It was eye opening the first time I read it as I related to a ton of the issues with NGS.
The first day or two after MC I felt worse - going from sex and thinking we were piecing to dating 1x every 2 weeks and taking it so slow. I understand this is the healthy approach. But obviously it is not as fun, sexy etc... but it's time to figure this out and act like adults. Now after a couple days I feel better. Although I'm unsure if / how things will work out. It's hard for me to believe us not seeing each other or talking will make us come closer together. I think this will allow me to detach. I am able to concentrate on work better and I've been sleeping better.
I have not reached out to W. She has texted me some and I've been brief. She has sent voicenotes with pics from D4 and facetimed the last two mornings. This morning she texted me she was supposed to get her period and hadn't she was nervous. A couple hours later she got it. We did talk about just having to trust each other. I think we're on the same page finally. We have talked on the phone once or twice when she has texted me a bunch I've called when I was free. Said I didn't want to text so much. Being less available.
I workout, do yoga hopefully once a week, read, coach, journal, play lacrosse, I had lunch with an old friend today, we are going to get lunch weekly. I am going to start hiking more, and want to continue to travel. I go to Hawaii next week for 5 days. Putting some strain on W to have D4 more but it is what it is.
Yes I need to slow down and be patient, this isn't a game I can work harder to win in the 4th quarter. Working on myself. According to an astrologer my mind is the fastest in the zodiac based on my birth chart. Slowww down.....
Accepting W has a lot of work to do on herself and I cant do it for her. Accept that the only thing I can control is myself no matter how positive I am or how much love I feel, it's not my timetable. Her needs matter as much as my own and they are very different.
So we have a lunch date tomorrow, Im going to her house around 10am and will hang w D4 then take her to school then we go to lunch. When we first connected (we knew each other a little bit in college), we slept together a bunch of times the first night.... now we are dating and not sleeping together and hoping to build trust and friendship. We have always struggled with communication. Going to think of some good topics for lunch convo tomorrow. Wish me luck. Thanks for the support.
Wishing the best of luck for you as a family. Remember to look at the half full of the glass. So, even dosifying low quantities of expectation, you need to find a way to enjoy this new rediscovering process. Pacience and time, low expectations, low anxieties, commitment and moving forward. Possitive attitude.
Walking towards the new day.
Thanks Neffer, really appreciate it. W and I had a really good lunch date. Great food, glass of wine. Towards the end W said this can be our spot. She had a few things ready to talk about and she seems to actually want to work on things, do it the right way. I brought up feeling a lot healthier than I did when we were sleeping together. And both of us needing to get our sht together. She invited me to sit in bed with her for a few minutes before I picked up D4 from school. Both of us were happy together. Maybe this taking it slow thing will work? I should probably work on listening... active listening, add it to things to improve.
I need to continue to focus on my 180s. Including patience, maturity, self control. Have D4 so limited time but it was a good day. Oh my battery died this morning, W had let it die when she was dealing with police after her accident keeping lights on. So I needed to get a new battery and a jump this morning. Which was a bit hectic.
But that doesnt really matter in the scheme of things... $225 expenses today for lunch and battery... we can make more money right. Have our dog here for the weekend. W comes at 9am tomorrow because I have to coach for a few hours then my parents come up and I have D4 overnight tomorrow night.
Thanks for the support all.
Im wondering about building a spark with W. Or just building in general. I'm trying to give her time and space. But I want to make sure I'm attractive and continuing to improve. I feel like I've gotten kind of stuck.
When we had the lunch date there was definitely a spark there. We talked about a lot of great stuff and W was the one saying how it was such a good date. But when were around each other generally its not. W has said in the past she has anxiety around D4 and I... maybe its some of that. Or just that shes doing what the therapist said. She is reaching out to me and sending pictures so there has been a lot of progress. I just dont want to be stuck in this friend zone long term. I guess thats part of my concern.
Im still having a hard time accepting where we are... a few weeks ago we were kissing, sleeping together etc.
Im overthinking and overanalyzing. Maybe I need to meditate more on peace of mind and just relax. I suppose I need to care less and detach more. I still need to be less available. I guess its about her needs and where she is at after having recently accepting some issues and reading self help books etc.
Patience is really a struggle for me... I've been working most night and starting a new recruiting business for high school athletes plus have D4 half the time so thats really all Im doing.
Im definitely going to get with this babysitter in the next couple weeks.
Should I be texting her goodnight or anything? She does like half the time. Ive been trying not to reach out first unless there is some type of parenting thing to discuss.
Another concern is that Im not sure if she even wants to be a full time mom. She definitely likes her alone time. And says things like shes mommed out. I want nothing more than to be a dad full time and be together... obviously.
Did I agree with Sandi, you've got to back way off. It seems that W "coming back" is making her feel less guilty, it feels like doing the right thing for her to come back, and she's taking comfort in that. At the same time, she's not *really* feeling like she wants to be back, she's not feeling it. She's faking it and you both know it. She's trying, and that's great, but it doesn't feel authentic and that is bothering you, which is understandable.
If you're really going to get to piecing, versus a temporary stay of execution for the MR, then she really has to *want* to be back, and to want it so badly that she's willing to do hard work.
You talk about trying to build a spark, but I guarantee that anything you try to encourage that is going to come across to her as you trying too hard and she's going to value you less in response.
If you want to build a spark, you're going to need to make things worse first. She'll need to believe she may not be able to come back to you, even if she wants to. That she needs to win YOU back. Then she'll be motivated.
How do you do that? Forget about her. Lead an amazing, happy life *on your own*. Lead the kind of life that anyone would want to be part of. This nice thing then is that even if she doesn't come back, who cares?
In my case, WW came back and we were "false piecing" for about 3 years before she went wayward again. I made it too easy for her to come back, she didn't really value being back, and therefore went wayward again. That's a pretty common pattern on these boards. For real piecing to begin, YOU have to be "done" first, you need to have dropped the rope. Otherwise you don't really have a chance for a real reset.
Acc
Should I be texting her goodnight or anything? She does like half the time. Ive been trying not to reach out first unless there is some type of parenting thing to discuss.
Another concern is that Im not sure if she even wants to be a full time mom. She definitely likes her alone time. And says things like shes mommed out. I want nothing more than to be a dad full time and be together... obviously.
BELIEVE NOTHING SHE SAYS
Accuracy I think you're 100% right. How do I make her feel like she may not be able to have me? AFter so long of her knowing what I want. I asked if she wanted to do something Wed while D4 is in school, I leave for Hawaii that night. I guess traveling and enjoying myself then coming back we go into MC 11/1. Good time to change the mentality and embrace all of this 110%.
I will back way off. Going to do it. I have not been reaching out, but when she contacts me I am too readily available and usually answer right away unless I'm working. Today I will be dropping off D4 at school, W will be there working out to see D4. I want to ask her if she wants to have coffee there.... reeks of desperation even writing it. So F that. If she wants to talk she can ask me. I already asked her if she wanted to go for a walk at the park W we both like being out in nature. I won't ask again and will plan to exercise and do something else in case she doesn't respond or ask me to do it.
I'm out Wed night for 5 days.... reset and come back as if we are done. She can try to make plans w me etc. She posted this pic of her in sexy witch make-up on IG, for a party the other day. I know she wants the attention even though she would never admit it. And I'd like to be the one to give it to her but telling her she's gorgeous isn't helping anyone, right?
Thanks all, this forum is so helpful even if my mistakes are frustrating for you as much as they are for me.
Don't get too down on yourself for the mistakes. These are matters of the heart, Did. We often allow our heart to lead in matters of the heart. The problem is the heart wants what it wants. It sees what it wants to see. It hears what it wants to hear.
The brain is much better at being able to look fully and objectively at these things. But in order to allow that we have to let the brain respond. The brain responds based on knowledge. The heart reacts based on emotion. I am sure I don't have to tell you which one is better for your sitch and which one is worse.
Agree Steve. Thanks. I have an interest in psychology and have been reading. The term I would use is conscious mind is your brain and subconscious mind is your heart. But amounts to the same thing. I will not ask her to to talk today or for plans before my trip.
Got lunch with w today. Nothing real to report. Wasn’t great just kind of shooting the sht. While driving I put my hand on her leg. Didn’t even really think of it... She said no. That’s were supposed to start as friends and i keep breaking the rules. She seemed mad for a few seconds. Last night she said she wanted more after our date the other day. Couple weeks ago having sex. I’ve told her I don’t trust her. She says that’s ok. And that I can facetime her every night she’s alone if I want. I told her no way I’d do that . She did clean my place really well the other day while I was working. That was really nice of her and felt good just to have that level of care. I kind of just feel like it’s just done. I have to improve my patience. . Heading to her house to spend time with D4 tomorrow late afternoon then out to Hawaii for 5 days.
Yeah. You need to GAL.Show her Did 2.0 is amoafwl. By the way, she has to IC a lot, so you´ll need time and patience. But you must keep moving forward. Don´t sit waiting, do the GAL.
Eyes open, expectation at minimum required to fuel the spark.
She isn’t doing IC at this point. Just MC and did IC once. I can’t make her do it. Its the same therapist. She gave W some books to read. One on self esteem and another on codependency. W puts on an amazing front and even I fall for it. But she says all she wants to do is lay in bed. Or I say I like being busy she says she’s the opposite. She watches movies every night by herself. Idk if we really have a chance. I need to be unavailable. And just Be there for d4 not W as much. Just do what MC says. No more sexual humor or trying to touch her. An exercise in mental toughness.
She knows how great of a guy I am. She has said I’m the best fuy she knows how admirable all the change is. That I’m completely different. No one as hot as me. Sex great. Date great. Wanted more. Asked how I did it how I learned to be open honest not scared of intimacy.
I think it’s her subconscious telling her she doesn’t deserve me and a happy family. I think she needs to know she doesn’t have me. I feel better when I don’t think about her...
I go to stay at a friends tonight then Hawaii tomorrow. That’s pretty GAL right?
Got lunch with w today. Nothing real to report. Wasn’t great just kind of shooting the sht. While driving I put my hand on her leg. Didn’t even really think of it... She said no. That’s were supposed to start as friends and i keep breaking the rules. She seemed mad for a few seconds. Last night she said she wanted more after our date the other day. Couple weeks ago having sex. I’ve told her I don’t trust her. She says that’s ok. And that I can facetime her every night she’s alone if I want. I told her no way I’d do that . She did clean my place really well the other day while I was working. That was really nice of her and felt good just to have that level of care. I kind of just feel like it’s just done. I have to improve my patience. . Heading to her house to spend time with D4 tomorrow late afternoon then out to Hawaii for 5 days.
Did, what is the current status of the voluntary support. Because I am still seeing her doing things just to make sure that support is secure. I mean, really ask yourself what the purpose behind her cleaning YOUR place for you could possibly be?
I do not think you will get her to be genuine until the support is cut off. The support is going to prolong your limbo. It will continue to have her run hot and cold. "Oh, he might be cutting me off, let me sleep with him!" "Okay, he paid, I can back way off again."
I think it’s her subconscious telling her she doesn’t deserve me and a happy family. I think she needs to know she doesn’t have me. I feel better when I don’t think about her... ?
Wow, you give her WAY TOO MUCH BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. How do you not see that everything she does is to keep you hanging on? What could you possibly have to offer her that she wants you to hang on like that? (And the "She knows how great of a guy I am. She has said I’m the best fuy she knows how admirable all the change is. That I’m completely different. No one as hot as me. Sex great. Date great. Wanted more. Asked how I did it how I learned to be open honest not scared of intimacy. " stuff....wow you really do still believe everything she says.)
Did, I told you last week, your sitch is way too advanced for you to be still making the same mistakes. Putting your hand on her leg? You claim it was without thinking....YEAH RIGHT. I can remember that in the thick of my sitch, every encounter and every interaction was razor sharp at the forefront of my mind. Do not try to tell us that you "didn't think about it" and your hand just magically went to her leg. No way.
It´s ok with the GAL Did. No expectations. Your W should work on herself...
While driving I put my hand on her leg. Didn’t even really think of it... She said no.
You simply have to stop pursuing 100%. You say "yeah yeah I'm going to" but then each interaction you have with her you're pursuing her.
From her perspective, you look like a big backed up dam of emotion that is literally spilling over the top and leaking from all the seams. She's going to be worried that if she gives you an inch you'll take a mile. If she leans back in that dam is going to come crashing down and you're going to sweep her away in your wake.
You have to make this worse before it gets better. The best thing you can do would be to go dark. Make her wonder what you're up to. Make her wonder why you're suddenly disinterested. There is no wondering about your mental state in your current course of action and that is going to work against you forever and keep you stuck right where you are or worse.
I also would *not* do MC right now. No way. The MC is going to get you to talk about your feelings and what you want in front of W, and you should *not* be doing that at all. You'll say you want to get back together and list all the logical reasons why. She'll say she's not sure. You'll play out pursuer/distancer in front of the MC. He'll suggest a few things for her to do or try and she'll do 25% of them half-heartedly and you'll get nowhere.
MC doesn't work at all unless both parties are motivated to make things better. MC should be a condition of you taking her back, which implies she first needs to *convince* you to take her back. You're 100 miles away from that point emotionally between the two of you, so starting MC would be a bad idea. Tell her you know longer want to do it and don't explain yourself. Just say you're not interested.
You're playing a game of poker right now and you're showing her all your cards. If you do MC, the therapist will also prompt you to show her the next few hands you plan on having and how you're going to play them. Bad bad bad. Hold your cards close, don't tell her what you're thinking, how you're feeling, or anything. Share no intimacy. Don't offer to meet up or do things together, don't make any offers. If she puts forth an offer accept them infrequently. When you do something with her be happy, polite, and pleasant, but not personal, and do not even appear interested in physical intimacy of any kind.
You're digging yourself a huge hole here with your pursuit and it needs to stop. It will require self-discipline. Are you up for it? If you don't believe some or any of this, argue with us about it, don't try your theories out on W and "see how it goes". I can predict how it will go 100% and it won't be good.
Acc
Accuray with the head shot!
Accuray...this brings me back to the question I have been having for quite a while now. If physical intimacy is initiated by WW what is your position on engaging at that point?
Yes, he´s shooting without mercy. You need to stick to DB basics Did.
Accuray...this brings me back to the question I have been having for quite a while now. If physical intimacy is initiated by WW what is your position on engaging at that point?
I will let Accuray answer for himself, but in general we typically say it is okay to engage in AS LONG AS you can do it without any expectations or significance attached.
If physical intimacy is initiated by WW what is your position on engaging at that point?
That's a giant "it depends". If you're DB'ing super well, not pursuing, don't appear needy, then you can engage from the perspective of "sure, I'll do this for you, but I can take it or leave it"
If you're otherwise acting like a starving dog and engaging in physical intimacy is the equivalent of her throwing you some table scraps, then I would say abstinence is in your best long term interest.
If she's doing it because she's bored, guilty, temporarily randy, etc. but not really "into you", then its going to scratch a temporary itch for her, but put YOUR head in a tailspin, so its not worth it. It will leave you confused and wanting more, and for her it will be quickly forgotten, and that's not what you want.
Acc
Accuray...this brings me back to the question I have been having for quite a while now. If physical intimacy is initiated by WW what is your position on engaging at that point?
I will let Accuray answer for himself, but in general we typically say it is okay to engage in AS LONG AS you can do it without any expectations or significance attached.
IE- never, LOL! No that is the proper answer but it is pretty much impossible for an LBS to have sex with their WAS without the expectation that it means recon is eminent, or at least on the way. I've seen it happen many, many times. "We had sex, we're piecing!" Followed by "Why is she suddenly so cold and distant?" Yeah.
If you're short on time please skip to *** paragraph. I read a book called codependant no more which was really good for me. I know I have these tendancies to fix and improve and Im still attached - her emotions affect me. Im also running on almost no sleep and have low energy with travel over night last night, then picked up D4 from school, coached 6-830, went to grocery store and now here I am...
I got back from Hawaii this morning, 10 hour flight from 8pm-6am. Amazing trip with an incredible group of guys and teammates. Inspirational, we won the tournament at two age groups and our business backer donated 10k per win to charities. I was named MVP of the tournament at 33+ division. A girls lacrosse player I met at the bar for halloween costume party with all lacrosse teams recently had her company bought out. I had some pretty open conversation with her and by the end she was inviting me to join her in south africa next month or to come to la and visit her... I do have some thoughts that this stuff with W is holding me back quite a bit... friends tell me I have to end it because they love me. All in all, quite an ego boost, also quite expensive... but now back to reality. Part of me wants to just embrace everything else and switch schedule to 1 week on 1 week off, get a babysitter, move on, live my best life. Or do I wait for W to heal and work on herself as she gets voluntary support (steve). Again with support if we divorce this money will be considered alimony and child support and is documented as such on each check. According to attorney I would be looking at about 18 months of alimony, Im 4 months in.
W has had a very hard time with D4 by herself for 5 days. She cant wait to be alone, she is introverted and her alone time like recharges her.. Ive read about it, and it does seem to be the case. But she really seems to be unraveling. She is telling me how anxious she is. Anxious about our MC appointment 11/1 because she wont have time for herself. She talks about making a phone call to schedule an appointment with an educator she needs to meet with like it is an old day event. No way she wants to do trick or treat tomorrow night. These are memories with our kid, it just doesn't make sense to me. She loves D4 so much. I think her mental health is still very much all over the place. Maybe she needs the alone time to work on herself, that makes sense at least... I spend way too much mental energy on this and have to stop. I do love her and want her to be healthy so we have a chance to see if we can be together. So I guess I should be patient with her? Im just going to pull back and be attractive, amoafwl. Literally everyone else sees me that way but its like this codependant, NGS thing with W... maybe it would be again if another partner but I dont think so Im very different with new women.
After being gone I have work to catch up on. W seems mad that she cant make plans tomorrow because I have to do lease signings and rental move ins tomorrow. Tenant has to drop her mom at the hospital 45 min away and then is calling me to do the move in as soon as she's free. And I have to work over the weekend. In my eyes I am supporting our whole family and this work is what pays the bills. Am I wrong here? I think she seems really entitled. Also if I had a 9-5 she would have D4 way more and have less alone time or we would pay for daycare.
I do understand her wanting some time to herself, being a parent with no partner is tough and after 2-3 days my stress levels go up as well. That being said, my logical mind can not help but think... this is why families should do everything they can to stay together. W has said she loves me all the other good sht... but she just wants to be alone all the time. It still seems selfish to me... but Im the one who just got back to Hawaii. I am going to have D4 as much as I can besides work and W knows that. At this point I may even bring D4 with me to do the rental move in.
Sigh... need to sleep but
***I really am looking for some input on what to say at MC. These are some notes I put in my phone during travel
- Only see / talk to W if she wants to. When she has positive energy like our recent date it goes so well. We both like and even love each other, you said of course you wanted more after the date. Being open honest and just herself around me seems like it takes a lot of effort. Thats the girl I love and Im just trying to understand.,.. what can I do?
(Probably have to say something like above and just stop there) I am too analytical and think too much. Hopefully putting thoughts down here will help. Vets if you think there is anything else I should discuss in MC please let me know.
- Respect and non negotiables / boundaries. You have bumble and tinder on your phone. A month ago you sent a pic of yourself in underwear to another guy and me. Slept with me the day after hooking up with another man on a date. Told OM2 all about our recent sex. All these things are past tense, but only a few weeks.
- You told me respect is so important to you. I think its important to anyone who loves them self. Respect and trust are earned. All those things are disrespectful to me and just happened so its a bit hard to process the radical change to now were friends and barely talking. After sleeping together and talking about everything. I understand that is whats healthy but I think we need to communicate more consistently whether its phone calls or in person.
- A month ago we were exchanging sexy pics, having open fun conversation, sleeping together and both liked it.... then pulled away. Now in counseling and barely talking.... are we moving backwards?
- When I see you and its obvious you dont want to be around each other that energy and negativity bothers me.
- Recently saw a video by Jay Shetty about relationships and what people really want is your energy and time. Not money or sexy vacations etc but intimacy and quality time. I agree.
- Ive been there when you need someone. I will always be there to support my partner because thats what it means to be a husband. You told me that was the most alpha thing you ever heard. Im a leader I want to lead our family to a better place... I dont know how or how long I can stay in the space we're in now. This is not a marriage or relationship.
- To me things kind of seem done, you dont want to talk or spend time, therapist said date 1x per week you said 1x every 2 weeks. Constantly pulling away... W, you can go. I dont want to be with you unless you want to be with me. I need you to work towards consistency... that is not needy thats a man who cares about you wanting to keep his mind right.
- I am not going to put my life on hold I want to live life with my daughter and ideally you too. I want to travel more and have experiences, build memories. Dont you want to do things? Lets get a hotel or go somewhere and do something as a family or just the two of us every month or two... consistently have something to look forward to.
- I need things to change and to treat each other better, if were dating and trying to figure things out... were still married weve been separated for a year and a half. Respect yourself, love yourself as much as I love you and I think things could work. I want to talk to someone Im dating, be able to call them and just have a conversation. I want to date someone who wants to talk or touch each other... if not then why are we dating?
- I told you a few weeks ago I want more kids with you if you want them. I cant be with someone who doesnt know if they want to be with me. Youve said some of the nicest things about me in the past month but actions speak and what I usually see is cold, disinterest, anxiety, walls up, no emotion and just being shut down.
- When we date you're like oh here I am this is me, and Im like man I still love her but its so few and far between. That is the girl I married, and youve been happy with me when youre in a good place. What can we do to make things better?
Too long of an essay for you guys or Maybe I’m a lost cause
Did, sorry, I started to read your post earlier today but work got in the way. Give me some time to read and digest it.
The same happens to me Did. Too much work for a Wednesday. Promise to read your post tomorrow.
Stay strong man!
I wouldn't say *any* of that in MC. If W has bumble and tinder on her phone, then she is not "fully in". If she's not "fully in", then you should not be sharing any of your intimate thoughts, feelings or doubts with her. It will make you feel better during the session to get these things off your chest, but it will diminish your standing in the relationship.
Honestly, you're not really in a relationship right now, but you're acting like you still are, and she's acting like she's not really. If you don't have the same goal, then there's no way that you're going to get to the same place.
Don't put yourself one down.
Going through that laundry list is going to be a huge mistake. You're making demands and talking about what you need from her at a time that she has no incentive or motivation to give you anything. When you do that, you're not keeping the road home paved smooth, you're making it look like she's going to have to wade through all your angst in order to get back to any kind of starting line, and why would she want to do that?
If you want to set boundaries, then set them.
You don't need MC to validate your boundaries, and you don't need to convince W that you're boundaries are valid, or explain the reasons for them, you just make them.
You'd be 100% better off with a "tough love" boundaries approach followed by going dark than sharing any of your private thoughts, feelings, doubts and complaints in front of her during MC -- it will be a HUGE mistake.
Acc
Thanks guys. Way too long. But there is this constant running commentary in my head. Loving her but wondering if we’re even right for each other. After seeing everything that’s out there do I want to be stuck in this little bubble with someone who can’t be consistent and doesn’t know if they want to be with me. She is interested when I don’t talk to her or give her attention is that what I want in my relationship? I don’t know.
Loving her but wondering if we’re even right for each other. After seeing everything that’s out there do I want to be stuck in this little bubble with someone who can’t be consistent and doesn’t know if they want to be with me. She is interested when I don’t talk to her or give her attention is that what I want in my relationship? I don’t know.
I haven't been looking what's out there yet, but wondering the exact same thing! Why, after so much deception and turmoil do I want this person? Because it's comfortable? I guess I see what COULD be IF we BOTH make changes. We at least LIKE each other and have a good friendship, have same financial sense, shared kids, etc. I believe it could be great if all the s*** is worked out. *Sigh*
Did, first that is typical you. All over the place to the point of almost being incoherent. I'm also with ACC. Don't say any of that. Mainly because your shouldn't be going into MC with an agenda. Let the MC guide you. Likely you won't her enough time to saw all that and then discuss it. Nothing wrong with having an idea of things you'd like to say but it seems as if you're planning on going in and airing your recent grievances.
One thing I would say is that you aren't interested in further MC sessions if a) she's not all in on the marriage or b) still seeing other guys. MC is a waste of time otherwise. And she will likely use it to say you tried.
Did, you need to be in IC, not MC. And working through your NGS and codependence. And figuring out what you want. Dating other women, meeting other women, considering traveling to other women.... And then going to MC doesn't make sense.
Anyway those are my thoughts. Good luck tomorrow.
I had several 1:1 conversations with the MC's I went to. They said that people come to MC for a variety of reasons:
1) Trying to give the appearance that they "tried" when in fact they had already given up. This is public face-saving
2) Trying to help the other person come to terms with the fact that they have decided to leave
3) Trying to get a third party to validate that they are right and the other person is wrong
4) Trying to save their marriage by being willing to work on it.
They said that 95% of the time, one person is coming for reasons 1-3, and the other person is coming for reason 4. When only one person is in, MC has a 0% success rate.
They said that people usually come in about three years too late, when one party is already fully checked out.
It sounds like you're fully in this scenario where you're in group 4 and W is in some combination of groups 1-3. In that scenario, you have almost no chance of success with MC.
I would strongly recommend individual IC and telephone DB coaching as being a *much* more effective course of action for you.
Acc
I agree with ACC and Steve Did. Just free yourself man. Both of you need IC, not MC. You gain nothing hurrying up things. Set boundaries (for you) and try to figure out what you expect from expectations...;-)
You'd be 100% better off with a "tough love" boundaries approach followed by going dark than sharing any of your private thoughts, feelings, doubts and complaints in front of her during MC -- it will be a HUGE mistake.
Acc
This is a super headshot from ACC. This is it Did. This is what you need.
Going to take your advice. Thanks all. You’re like friends to me at this point and I appreciate your insights more than you know.
Not going to air grievances going to mention goal of MC and reason for being there. She wants to be proven she’s right. Not dating her if she’s on dating apps talking to others guys. May just be done for now go dark whatever.
Keep DBing man. Set your boundaries and work on yourself. Be there for D4 and GAL. Get into amoafwl, be consistent with your changes. You don´t sit waiting for no one. Start walking your road, slowly but surely.
Did,
just finished your post from yesterday, that's good to get all of that out! And you did it in the right place in my opinion.
My take is that you really are coming to a lot of the right conclusions on your own, but you have all these feelings holding you back from accepting what you know is true. That's ok, that's called being a human. I've played lots of sports, as have you. One of the hardest lessons to learn is what your weaknesses are and how to manage them. Not making those "unforced errors" makes more of a difference than the spectacular plays over the course of a season. So you need to "know yourself" and your weaknesses. Your W is your weakness and you know it, we know it, everyone knows it (and it's OK too). So learn to manage that. Tell your W "let me think about that and I'll let you know" it buys you enough time to calm down, remove the emotion, and make your decision. You can't always do it but you will get better with practice.
You said you're a leader, so lead! It's hard. Make the hard decision, even though you don't want to. Detach. Let her go. Show her you won't play the games, that you've made up your mind on how to live, that you aren't going to settle for an up and down, hot and cold R. I know that you really don't want the hot and cold R, but you have shown your W that you'll settle for it. You've settled for it so much that it seems like you've settled in and now it's just part of your life. It's a habit. Breaking habits is hard work.
What Steve and Accuray said is great too. I loved Acc's post about the four types of people in MC. It's so true.
If you decide to go dark, make sure it's a decision and a plan you can stick to. No more flip flopping. Like you said, you're a leader. Be firm, steady, strong. It's not easy and sometimes it flat out [censored], but it will pay dividends down the road whether you reconcile or not. Your W can't figure out anything right now, so you need to figure out yourself. She'll make her own decisions in her own time. Separate yourself from the craziness.
Oh and by the way, I like the story about the chick you met. Sounds pretty cool! Too bad you can't fully jump into any of that b/c it sounds awesome. Glad the trip was a success!
Thanks ovr love the sport analogy.
One other thing I want to say is that I believe the voluntary support is allowing her to be condependnt on me for finances and whatever her needs are unrelated to emotion. And I’m codependent on her on the emotional side of the relationship.
Yes Did, that voluntary support has kept you both attached to each other, in different ways. I get that she will be entitled to alimony. However, the difference is that if you leave the Ding to her, that she has to go through the process and do the dirty work in order to get the alimony, I think you'd see a different side of her. The voluntary support gives her the luxury of post D benefits without the pain and effort of having to go through the D. This has been my point all along.
Yes she will be entitled to alimony, but make her work for it.
Well I hope you all haven’t given up on me. Probably going to be venting here. I’ve been journaling and working on myself GAL with some guy friends. Continually have opportunities to travel for lacrosse tournaments but hesitant to leave for an extended period of time with split custody and w struggling to parent solo. When I got back from 5 days in Hawaii she was a mess leading to issues noted below.
We got into it via text with wife today. She said she avoids communicating with me because it drains her and brings her down. Now she has also said how different my energy is that she loves me im a great dad no one hotter than me sex was great etc. Admits she’s not consistent day to day and isn’t ready in her journey. This is a 1.5 year separation. Previously we had solid progress with MC. Dating once every week or two not seeing other people. No talking or sexual stuff with other partners. Been almost two months since w and I slept together and I thought we were going to be piecing.
Recently I made the mistake of rescuing and NGS tendencies the last couple weeks. She asks for help with D4. I came over a couple days to help out. Including one day her asking me to rub her neck because she gets tension headaches and migraines. She has been in the hospital for this. I show up she’s in a thong in bed asking me to rub her neck. Umm yea how about a side of hard sex to go with it.
Then She pulls away and has the nerve to say we should be together for dates and not around each other so much. When she invited me over. Said she wants to keep me at arms length. C agrees this is manipulative and she’s not doing the work. I believe she is also projecting everything on me and personally believe she has a slew of other issues. She said today communicating with me brings her down and she can’t do it. The only thing that makes her feel better is being productive and powerful alone.
So all I can do is go to LRT and full DB mode, right? Pretty disappointed but saw it coming as I’m sure you did if you followed my sitch. W told me she wasn’t ready. She’s still full of anger and resentment. During text convo today she said she doesn’t think we can make each other’s lives better. She’s avoiding communicating with me because it brings her down. Then she shows up to pick up d4 and we get along well.
On my end I take responsibility and will never bring up the relationship by text or outside of therapy. I promise myself that. Back to the picnic analogy I was making progress there but I allowed her lack of effort to feet me and I started pursuing. Repetitive mistake someone hit me with a 2x4.
Issues continues... She has this fake surface happiness as if she’s fine but said 6 weeks ago she had a hard time getting up in the morning and has nothing to offer the world but pain last week D4 was sick I offered her to take the MC spot for IC she said she didn’t wanna spend $ when she didn’t think she needed it. Damn really?! My gut is telling me to stop trying. There has to be a better partner for me. I know she has post partum stuff and uses d4 for external happiness. That’s really all she has and a gf or two she’s not honest with as far as I know I’m the only one she’s really opened up to when she’s been hurting. No one knows we’re in therapy or dating / not seeing other people. It’s a Fing hot mess
I want it all but she’s no where near ready. Last IC session C said she’s not doing the work you’re hearing the same things. Next session tell her what you need if she wants to date you. It’s not healthy for you etc. I have to listen to C and sandi / DB vets and do what works. l believe there has to be a better partner for me but I also believe if W and I were healthy we could build a great relationship. How can we get there... I just gotta chill out and GAL which I’m doing better at. Holidays are tough I wanna do Xmas w her family but may travel instead.
C asks why I love her- We connect on a higher level intellectually and have values and morals that are rare, we have similar interests like astrology, nutrition, enjoy nature hiking, animals, deeper conversation, she is a great mom and physically / Sexually I’m so attracted to her. I find myself having sexual thoughts and fantasies about convos W and I had a month or two ago when I go to sleep or wake up. Yea I want that and just a couple months ago she wanted it with me.
We have counseling scheduled for Dec 3. I’m going to say something like if you want to date me I need you to work on yourself and do what C recommended - 2 books to read, 6 weeks she read 40 pages. When she was reading and trying it was going pretty well. Work on communication and consistency be in IC. Accept you still resent me and have a lot of anger which is ok but should be talked about in a healthy way. Tell her I accept her and where she is, respect her and her journey and want her best effort. Then ask her what she needs from me.
MC has recommended Ic for both of us. She continually hurts me but I continue to allow it. Im going to work on saying no more. I’m going to focus on dropping the rope and detaching. I’ve been re-reading initial posts. My goal is to not allow her or anyone’s actions to affect my mental health and emotional stability. Pull away / LRT and if she comes back don’t jump at it... chill out and NO MORE R talks.
If anyone has food threads or articles / reading recommendations please send links / book titles.
Glad to see you back Did, you're one of the good guys around here.
Your W is still going through her own deal. She's hot and cold. The whole hey come over and rub my neck thing, well you probably knew what that meant before you went, right? So next time, just tell "sorry, I've got plans". Because I don't think you really want to go over there to play these games, right? You want it be more than this, but you wanting it does not make it so. She definitely wants to keep you on the hook, she definitely has feelings for you, but every time you come closer in response to her, she tells you how hurtful it is to communicate with you or how it is bringing her down. She keeps doing that, and you don't control her. But you do control your response to her. So respond differently.
Damn really?! My gut is telling me to stop trying.
I think I know what you mean here. In my sitch, I think there are some legitimate areas I can still improve on in my interactions with W. But when it comes to game playing, you do need to bow out. Your "trying" is really just pursuit, unless I have forgotten something - just let me know.
I’m going to say something like if you want to date me I need you to work on yourself and do what C recommended - 2 books to read, 6 weeks she read 40 pages. When she was reading and trying it was going pretty well. Work on communication and consistency be in IC. Accept you still resent me and have a lot of anger which is ok but should be talked about in a healthy way. Tell her I accept her and where she is, respect her and her journey and want her best effort. Then ask her what she needs from me.
So are you going to stop trying, or going to spill your guts to her again so she can tell you about how much it hurts to communicate with you? Have you ever really let go of her for more than a few days?
She continually hurts me but I continue to allow it.
Yep, I'm a glutton for punishment too. We love our wives, and we think that the love and their vow should be enough - but it's not. Let's learn and get better, OK?
I'm rereading DR right now, it seems I've forgotten quite a bit. Good luck Did, wish you were out my way so we could have a few holiday drinks!
Thanks Ovr good to hear from you. Im on the east coast where are you?
What should my reaction be if she says Im hurting her or bringing her down. Just validate I guess. I understand how hard this is for you... something like that?
Our MC told me I should tell her what my boundaries are - tell her what you need if she wants to date you. She also recommended I make a timeline because W may be stuck for months or years. I had said Feb when I'll turn 34. A half dozen times after our interactions in the past month I've thought, I'm done with this... and we are not even at Feb.
I still believe if I move on / let go she may come back but thats not why Im doing it. Id be done because I dont deserve to be treated this way. I dont see her making any effort. I believe she still has a lot of resentment because of my past mistakes but as my therapist said. How much work could of been done over the last 1.5 years if she had done the work? I have changed a lot and by no means am I a finished product but Im much better than I was and I continue on my journey in therapy, reading, a couple mens groups Im looking to get into... [censored] but it is what it is. Not sure what else I can do except stop talking to her...
She facetimed with D4 around 7pm. Talked to D4 for 5-10 minutes then told them I had to go. I have not texted or reached out and do not plan to.
W said she is done a day or two ago. I still dont think she has even really tried. Read 40 pages of 2 books therapist recommended over 6 weeks. She resents me for how I was in the marriage shes inconsistent has anxiety when its D4 and both of us. She just accepts this is how she is. Dont think she tries to do any of the hard stuff to change it. Ive changed a lot she sees it has said great things to me- how different my energy is, great dad, hottest guy. Ive been the rock every time she needs someone Im there. Ive rescued her and enabled her... not any more. She criticizes me than shuts me down when I try to have a conversation. She is manipulative and her mom is the same way, she dislikes her mom which is an understatement but I see her building the same life.
I have gone dark, man its hard. Facetimed me last night, no answer. Havent texted or reached out. A month ago we were dating and doing well, things deterioirated the last few weeks as she said things like I want to keep you at arms legnth (feels like manipulation have me but you cant have me), she avoids communication with me because she gets down (no one else knows what shes going through- its hard).
May try to talk to her about communcation tomorrow. Talking on phone at least 1x per week we agreed to in therapy and dating every week or two, hasnt happened recently. Shutting me down, resentment, criticism of me then not being able to talk about it, healthy communication styles- being able to open up, be vulnerable etc. Talking about communcation was was one of the last things I texted her the other day. We have counseling scheduled for Dec 3rd. At counseling Im going to throw it all out there. She can put real effort in to work on herself or we can go our separate ways. Hurting right now but not sharing with her. I made the mistake of telling her I was hurting a few days ago and she freaks out got so mad, said she cant stand that she can hurt me it makes her mental, that is what sparked the Im done conversation, like how is that the response to someone you care about having a hard time. Up to that point she was giving one word answers. Im just fed up guys. She can do the hard work on herself to let go of the past, work on her communication, her self esteem and manipulation or I feel like I have to give up at least for now.
What should my reaction be if she says Im hurting her or bringing her down. Just validate I guess. I understand how hard this is for you... something like that?
Try to say more than "I understand". B/c she will hear that and say to herself "No, you don't". Say "I can see how you feel that way", "I can see how you think that" or my favorite "I get that" with a pleasant, agreeable tone.
Communicating your boundaries to your W will be important, but only when she is ready for R and ready to meet them.
Your W saying she is "done" is really nothing of note. She's said that before right?
Her not doing the hard stuff to better herself is annoying, but there's not a thing in the world you can do about it. I hope you will reread the validation link at the beginning of your first thread and commit 2 or 3 validating phrases to memory.
If you've gone dark, you can't talk to her about all the stuff in your last paragraph. If you guys are still going to counseling, you aren't really going dark anyways.
She can put real effort in to work on herself or we can go our separate ways.
Unless you are seriously ready to move on, I wouldn't say this. She is 99% likely to shut down and not respond the way you are hoping.
As to all the stuff you agreed about a month ago, well she has already gone back on her marriage vows, why wouldn't she disregard this agreement as well? Let it be.
Don't share your pain with her, because right now she doesn't care and can't even listen to it. My W is the same way. We have to accept it and move forward in a positive direction, find new outlets to share our suffering and accept that our W's are not going to help us there, only bring us more pain.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2823979#Post2823979