I have been following this forums for some months now and it has gotten to a point where I am willing to listen to any and all advice that can same my M.
Just for a little background My W and I have been together almost 12 years, 7 of which as H and W.
We were originally high school sweethearts that found each other 6 years later and got together. During those 6 years she was in an abusive R and never really resolved the issues stemming from that time. Last year we moved across the country and everything seemed fine, we were both excited about our new surroundings even if they were far away from our family and old friends. About a year or so again she starting having issues with Anxiety and Depression and told me that feelings/thoughts from her past were coming up. She started seeing a therapist and was put on medication. A few months later is when the real cracks started to appear. I heard things such as: " I am not happy" "I do not know who I am". " I need to find myself". She started reading a lot of feminist literature about strong women that do not need men.
Shortly before Christmas 2017, I heard " I do not love you the way you love me". I asked her if she was leaving me and there was a long pause. but eventually she said no, " I just need space". Naturally not knowing what to do I proceeded to do a lot of the wrong things that we all do when not knowing any better. Fast forward to March 2018 and the bomb was dropped... ILYBINILWY. I was weak and did the begging and crying thing and promised that I would give her "space", without really knowing what that meant. I tired all sorts of things to change my situation eventually picking up a copy of DB. I was able to correct a lot of things, but did not have the ability to maintain those changes. Frustration set in and in times of weakness I put pressure on her, but asking too many questions, doing nice things and telling how much I love her all the time.
This brings me to ~5 weeks ago. It was a normal day, we hugged and kissed goodbye in the morning and both said I love you. We exchanged texts which also included I love you. Little did I know, while I was at work that day she was moving all of her personal belongings out of the house. She asked when I was coming home so I told her at around 5pm, walked right into the ambush. The marriage was over, she was moving out and had already consulted an attorney. (But she said she hopes we can still be friends)
From having read the DB book and some of the forums here, I knew not to plead or fight for the marriage even though I really wanted to. I did make a small remark about realizing certain things too late and that change was afoot, but I knew she was not listening. We talked about the next steps (legal proceedings) and that was about it.
Since then I have been in No Contact or LRT, she has asked via text of course how I am and some recent medical procedures and even told me that she still really does care about me. Knowing better I did not respond to those texts. We do have a dog that we have kind of been trading off every 2-3 weeks so I only respond to logistical matters related to the dog but nothing else. During that time I have been working on GAL and starting multiple hobbies and joining some clubs. I was doing my best to take advantage of the gift of time.
Last night was the first time in ~5 weeks that we have seen each other face to face when she came to pick up the dog. She looked exhausted. She started some small talk about work and she burst into tears about the stress at her job and then our situation. She said that we were simply not right for each other and that she never wanted to hurt me. She said she really wanted to believe in our story, but it was not as how it was in her head. She made it sound like we were never good together and that she was bascially lying to her self and to me all of these year. (I have all of the love letters she wrote me for the last 12 years and I know this not to be the case....). Being human, I reached out to her and hugged her and let her cry for 20min. I was as stoic as possible, project all the strength that I could muster not to loose my self. I showed empathy for the way she felt, but I also bit my tongue and did not argue any or her points regardless of how "false" I thought them to be. I knew better, those things are "true" because she believes them to be.
As she was leaving she said that her lawyer will be contacting me soon to start the proceedings... Is this the end? Is there anything else to do. It seems like the only thing left is to truly let go, detach and GAL that will never have her in it again. Do I stall on the D, or try to get it over with as fast a possible? I have not given up hope, yet naturally it feels hopeless.
I would appreciate your thoughts and support
Posted below is Cadet's Welcome Posting. Please read all of the homework, as there is a lot of good information in each of the links.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Me-64, D32,S31
Hero, you seem like you are in good shape moving forward. You are well prepared and studied for what you need to do next. Any specific questions?
My general advice is to continue to detach. GAL like a mad man! Oh, and GAL like a madman. Did I say to GAL like a madman?
Seriously, you need to stay busy. Keep your mind off it. Give her time and space to think about whether this is what she really wants.
One last thing, we often talk about the monkey not jumping from one branch until they've identified another branch that will support them. Are you sure there isn't an OM?
Hang in there and keep posting!
Sorry you are here Hero, welcome on board.
Re writting history is a classic. I did that myself...Then you have to believe nothing that they say and half that they do...She wants D so she must do the job, just do not interfere. Detach and keep GAL like Steve says.
Stay strong!
Hi Hero,
sorry about your sitch. It sounds like you know what to do to get started here. One thing I noticed that doesn't make sense is why would her lawyer contact you first? Don't they file and serve first? Maybe your W just said that the wrong way.
The antidepressants thing is something I learned about from Steve's sitch. They may or may not play a factor here. I'd be worried about an OM too just given how long you've been at this.
Thank you for your responses, I was beginning to worry that my lone post was going to go unanswered.
As I mentioned in my post above, we have been sharing the dog with each of us getting her every few weeks. Do you feel this is detrimental to my sitch? That has been the only contact I have really engaged in with my W and the majority of which has been text messages. I would rather not give up the dog completely just to go silent, is that wrong?
As far as if there is a OM...honestly I don't know. I am suspicious/jealous by nature (which could have been a contributor to the state of the R). I point blanked asked my W on 3 separate occasions including the day she moved out and she said know. I know what you said above about trust nothing she says, but why would she lie walking out the door with D on her mind? I will say that if you were look at the usual behaviors of a cheating S, my W does check a few of the boxes.
I thought about going the PI route or following her, but in end what does it matter if there is a OM present or not. At this point I am already heartbroken and while it may sound like I am burying my head in the sand, I did not see any personal benefit with finding out as it would not help me in anyway. I chose not to care...for now. As far as DB is concerned, I believe that steps I am taking are the same whether there is an OM or not, correct?
I am doing my best to detach, but as most of you already know, easier said than done. I have bad days and I have good days. It seems that as long as I am busy, I am fine. The hardest part of each day is at bed time where I cannot turn my brain off and falling asleep is impossible.
I also want to add, that reading these forums really helps me when I am in a funk. I am very thankful for everyone the posts/replies here.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
I know what you said above about trust nothing she says, but why would she lie walking out the door with D on her mind?
You know the answer to this. To make herself look and feel better.
I will say that if you were look at the usual behaviors of a cheating S, my W does check a few of the boxes.
Which boxes?
I think hiring a PI to tail her would probably not be worth it, unless you live in a state where an affair gets you a more favorable ruling in divorce court. So check the laws, consult a lawyer.
Worrying about her and what she is doing is not the best for you. If you find out there's an affair happening, then you do your best to not rub your own nose in it. You do that to keep yourself sane, to keep your focus on making yourself a better person.
And you're right - keeping your mind busy, whatever that means to you, is the way to detachment. GAL (Get A Life). It is everything. It will make you feel better. If your mind is wandering at night, then go to the gym, burn off some energy so that you hit the bed and go to sleep. I've been there and done that with the sleepless night and it doesn't happen anymore. I'm not a GAL pro but I find enough things to do to stay occupied and forgot about the stuff I can't control. I'm glad you're enjoying the forums.
@Ready2Change
Thank you for the links, some I had seen others I have not. I always appreciate reading what Sandi has to say.
Sandi if you are lurking and want to comment on my sitch, please feel free.
@ovrrnbw.
Well If I google "signs wife is having affair" and compare them to my wife, I get the following:
emotionally distant
change in appearance
lack of interest in sex
spending time with new friends
spending more time at work
spending more time on cell phone/computer
Changing or placing passwords on devices
However all of this can be explained away for other reasons such as we are new to our city/state (new friends), she just got a new job where the work is ramping up (more time at work), she was diagnosed with depression and taking medication etc (emotionally distant/lack of interest in sex).
There was a point last fall where she thought I was reading her emails ( I was not), but it was then that she started password protecting her devices. While I did not snoop on her emails, I did have a good idea of what she was looking at online at it was mostly related to fitness and diet (nothing new), she also spend a lot of time on social media talking to friends and collecting quotes about life and changes as well as shopping on Amazon. Her change in appearance was not to a sexier/sluttier version just a change in style which included coloring her hair wild colors. Does this mean that there was/ is an A? Maybe, but it could also be a MLC coupled with depression or worst case a combo of all three.
I want to believe that I am dealing with a MLC based on what I have read here and in the books, she just seems to be questioning everything. Her life's choices, who she is, what she wants etc. After spending a lifetime as a pleaser and probably a co-dependent person, I feel that she is struggling with her identity. She had a real hard time with her 35th birthday and getting older.
Like I mentioned in my previous post, I chose not to care what the root cause was as I did not think it mattered to me and my job to GAL. If I understand the wise Sandi correctly, I just have to let things run its course and wait and see what shows up on the other side.
Hmmmmmm......... no smoke without fire.
I think there maybe someone else on the scene. She just doesnt want to hurt you.
Could be wrong, but someone is influencing her. My W is very easily influenced. Shes completely rewriting our M history.
Well, based on the comments here, maybe there is someone else. Like I said, I don't know and at the moment don't really care.
As mentioned in my previous posts, I am focused on me and doing my best to GAL. I am a little worried about receiving any papers regarding a D however. It is sometimes hard for me not to imagine some horrible scenario where I get taken to the cleaners and lose everything. Even though when my W moved out and mentioned her intent to file for D she told me that she did not want anything from me. Hopefully, this will be one of the rare occasions where she is being truthful, time will only tell.
Question to the board about how to deal my in laws. We have a really good relationship and on top of that, they happen to be really good friends with my parents as well. I am trying to navigate still being in contact with them without discussing the sitch or giving them anything to pass along to my W about how I am doing or what I am up to, as I have gone completely dark. I do not wish to be rude or push them away as I know that they care for me a great deal. Both of them told me individually that I will also be family no matter what happens. Do I just "take a break" from them for a while? Or do I carry on with them as usual and potentially allow them to pass information along to my W?
Not that it impacts me much one way or another, I have noticed that the temp checks from the W have ceased. I was curious based on others experience if this a sign of something to come? Potential calm before the storm? The last time I spoke to the W, she said that the D papers were coming this week. I have neither heard from the W or seen any papers. I know there is still tomorrow, but I find it strange that nothing has happened. Was this some sort of test to see if I would react to it?
Thanks in advance for your responses.
You don't want to be "passing along" info to anyone. It's weird, unclear, indirect, weak - I could go on. Mainly, it's pressure.
Who knows what it is really going on with her? What are you doing? GAL? Moving forward? Any personal progress?
If-When you receive divorce papers , take them. Do not read them until later (like the next day-or weekend). Take all the time you need to process what they say.
Any questions about them from spouse, respond with "I will let you know when I am done reviewing them"
In-laws:
Most recommend not discussing anything with them. I would go dark on them as well. GAL
Still no D papers yet...
I had not heard from my W since last week Friday when I received a text me a few minutes ago asking if I can take the dog for a few days since the place she is living is going to having maintanence performed and the dog needs a place to go. She also mentioned that she wants to go visit her family and asked if it can stay through next weekend. Naturally, I did not respond right away and after thinking about it told her to go ahead and bring the dog over to stay the next 2 weeks. While some may think that I am caving to her demands or reacting to her, the fact is, I do enjoy spending time with the dog, especially the long walks after work. At least in my mind, I feel like I am getting more benefit out of it than she is. Was I wrong to agree? Am I missing something?
So after seeing NGS in a few of the threads from the last 2 weeks, I decided I had to figure out what it meant (Nice Guy Syndrome). Afterwards I decided to learn as much as I can about it including buying a book on the subject from Amazon. While I am not a 100% fit with what was written, I am really glad that I did as there were many parallels to my life and it forced me to really think about things in a different way. I would venture a guess that quite a few of the LBH in this forum also have NG tendencies and could probably benefit from some self-reflection / learning while they work on GAL. I know I do not read all of the threads, but I am a little shocked that I did not pick up on the whole NGS months ago. I feel like this is pretty important that should be discussed more often amongst us newbies as I find the strategies on how to correct the NG behaviors mesh well with DB.
Take the dog and don't worry about it. My pup brings joy into my life on a daily basis. It's not NGS to do something bc it will make YOU happy.
I can float between a NICE GUY and a BAD BOY. Changing my behavior as needed.
Most guys showing up here have NGS.
There are traits of the Bad Boys that are attractive to women. Learn these.
There are traits of the Bad Boys that are not attractive to women, but women put up with them because he still has the attractive traits. They will even stay in a controlling and abusive relationship. Know what these are and keep them out of your behavior.
Spoke too soon. Got served today and have 21 days to answer to the court. I let the W know that I have received and simply asked when she would like to discuss a settlement. I believe the sooner this is over for her, the quicker she can figure out what the heck she wants out of life.
I know it may sound like I am giving up, but I have to believe by letting her go, is the only way to show that I really do love her.
...Got served today and have 21 days to answer to the court...
Sorry to hear this. Take your time reading and processing.
So it has been a few days and I think I am calm about the documents I recieved. I reached out to my W to start discussing a settlement, hopefully without the need to get attorneys involved. I am waiting on her response. I have not yet retained an attorney.
I cannot help but feel like it is giving up or conceding defeat. I have read here and in other places that this is only a piece of paper in the long run and that you can still have hope, but I have to admit that I feel like this really is it... I am just stunned at the speed with which everything is moving. The ambush when she moved out and then less than 7 weeks later I get papers. Why the rush?
I continue to work on detaching and GAL, but I can feel this voice screaming inside of me to "do something". It is my blind faith in BD that is currently stopping me from doing or saying anything to try to stop the D. I do love her and her happiness does mean a lot to me, is letting go the only thing I can offer her?
I know I have changed in the past few months and learned much about myself and my failings. I am determined to learn from them to be the best version of myself moving forward, I just wish she would see it/notice it to. Are the 180s that I am doing not effective, should I be doing something different?
It is my blind faith in BD that is currently stopping me from doing or saying anything to try to stop the D. I do love her and her happiness does mean a lot to me, is letting go the only thing I can offer her?
What would you say to "stop the divorce"? Do you think there is something that would turn it around for her, if she only heard those words? I'm genuinely curious, b/c you are the expert on your relationship.
You should do what works. So if what you're doing doesn't work, stop doing that. MWD has a section in the book on this, where you wait and see what happens. Not everything happens right away either.
When you put it that way, no, there is nothing I could say that would stop the divorce.
Honestly, I do not know how to read her anymore. I sometimes wonder if she wants to me "chase" her. Is the test to see how bad do I want to be with her?
It is just that when she moved out and announced the D, I did a 180 by not putting up a fight. I did not beg, plead or cry. I never asked her to perhaps just take some time to think and talk about it again before pulling the trigger. I did not tell her that this is not what I want and that I want to work on the R / M nor did I ask for another chance for us to work on things.
The only thing I did mention at the time was that it was unfortunate because I had been doing a lot of learning about myself and at the point in time I was in a relatively good place and told her that I had put undue pressure on her for the past few months and that I had finally figured out why and was correcting it. She even admitted that she noticed it in the days prior to her leaving.
She had just done an all day work related charity event a few weeks prior to moving out and she asked that day why I did not ask her about it when she got back. I responded with "why did you not invite me or include me in the donation process?" as other spouses or family members went/donated. I reminded her that I was envious of the event and told her previously that I wish I would also participate and even in the days leading up to it showed tons of interest is what she was doing by asking questions about it and showing her the website with photos from previous years. I told her that I was just waiting for her to bring it up and show the me photos. She had no answer... I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but she left that day telling me that she was going to think about what I said and I could see her questioning her self whether she was doing the "right" thing.
There was never a follow up discussion...obviously she thought about it and is moving forward with the D.
I have only had one other face to face interaction with her and between the last thing she said to me the day she moved out and the way she acted the last time we met, I would swear that we still have a chance because I could see she loves me the way she looked at me and the way we held each other.
I have been doing the LRT for almost 2 months now and it has been at least 4 weeks since a "temp. check". The only texts I receive are about the dog and when would I like dog to come over. Does this mean it is not working? Obviously, if there is an OM that could be a reason, but I have no evidence there is one. Since our contact is so limited, how do I know when things are working or not? I do not wish to prematurely stop LRT as it has only been 2 months, but how long after should I start to notice if it is working?
So you are questioning DB? And the alternative I assume is pressure and pursuit?
Go look up a poster named Nutcrac and his threads for what happens when someone decides DBing isn't working and that his WAS wants him to "chase" IE pressure and pursuit.
I can tell you his ending, he ended up having a finalized D within a few weeks of deciding to go that route.
DBing always works. Does it always result in saving a marriage? No. But it works in making you ready to move forward no mater what the outcome is. Pressure and pursuit will accelerate your sitch. And it will all but guarantee the WAS sees the D through to the end.
The fact is, your W might have D'd you by that point even if you turned into Brad Pitt and Adonis rolled into one. You could do everything perfectly (and it sounds like you've come pretty close to that since you didn't do the begging, crying. pleading routine most of us do!), and still end up D'd. The reason D is still sometimes the outcome no matter what is because you can't control the WAS. They still get to make a choice for themselves.
So I am not sure what your proposing here. Obviously, you can do whatever you want. You can keep DBing like a madman, or you can throw caution to the wind and pursue and pressure. Or you can say, forget it I give up and move the D forward yourself. All of that is within your control. It is just that the middle choice leaves you most vulnerable to disappointment with the proper coping mechanisms for what comes next.
I do not wish to prematurely stop LRT as it has only been 2 months, but how long after should I start to notice if it is working?
Also you are asking us to give you an expectation. DBing, GAL. 180s. Detachment. Going Dark. LRT. ALl of these are to be done WITH ZERO EXPECTATIONS.
It could take another minute......or it might never get her to come back. But the fact that you are having your picnic by yourself, but looking over your shoulder trying to see if she is noticing, coming, joinging, etc...... that will set you up for failure every time.
Do LRT for you. Because it is better than texting her every day and getting ignored. Or getting her angry. Or making her feel like she needs to run the other direction as fast as she can.
Thanks for the feedback and support, I was having a moment of weakness. I was alone with my thoughts too long and did not do a good job of distracting myself with doing something....
Of course I knew what you were going to say, but I guess I just needed to see it. I will consider the responses from yesterday my first 2x4.
It is just hard as I have no network of people to talk to where I live since I am relatively new to the area. My closest friend lives across an ocean and the difference in time makes it hard to communicate. Even if I meet someone tomorrow it is not like I can go straight to a discussion about my Homelife and pending D. I am seeing a IC and that helps a little bit, but I have never felt more alone in my entire life.
but I have never felt more alone in my entire life.
It sound like you need to get out and meet people.
I would go to dinner BY MYSELF. Enjoy talking to the staff.
I would go listen to live music BY MYSELF. I would talk to others at the event.
I would go shopping By MYSELF. Always open to small talk.
Good book:
https://www.amazon.com/Fine-Art-Sma...mp;ie=UTF8&qid=1282454150&sr=1-1
It is just hard as I have no network of people to talk to where I live since I am relatively new to the area. My closest friend lives across an ocean and the difference in time makes it hard to communicate. Even if I meet someone tomorrow it is not like I can go straight to a discussion about my Homelife and pending D. I am seeing a IC and that helps a little bit, but I have never felt more alone in my entire life.
Do you live in the States? MeetUp has been very valuable for me to get out of the house. Met some great people already. Just other nice people that like to do similar things together. Had a 4.5 mile walk with a lunch aftewards today. Nice day. When I'm home and the walls start closing in and the obsessive thoughts of "what is he doing" come on strong, I get busy with a project or go to the gym. ANY distraction helps a lot.
So I reached out to my W the day I was served and it took her 2 days to respond that she wants to check with her Lawyer. Today she finally responds with a text stating that all negotiations will be going through her lawyer since she is not familiar with the law. I responded with a text simply stating that I am not asking her to cut her lawyer out of the loop but that I would simply like the opportunity of discussing a potential settlement with her face to face without getting lawyers involved. No answer...
Maybe this is a ply out of the WAW (WW) playbook, but it is clear that she is avoiding having to have this discussion with me. What is that about? She is the one asking for a D...
I have this suspicion that she (or her lawyer) is trying to work me over even though when she moved out said she did not want anything from me.
She was more or less pleasant last time we saw each other. We even had a tender moment where I held her as she cried on my shoulder, but I feel that she is now avoiding me completely.
I have not shown her anything but a clam demeanor so far. Inside I am all over the place from sad to frustrated to angry. Who is this person that I am dealing with? Is she going to be a Jekyll/Mrs. Hyde moving forward? How can you just move out and shut another person out of your life like that? But then out of the blue text and ask if I would like to have the dog for a few days and pretend like nothing is happening when she drops it off?
Very Common.
I always like the split the cookie analogy. The person that does not split the cookie gets to pick the half they want.
She broke the cookie. Did you get the bigger or the smaller half? Did she under value things on her half and over value things on your half?
Did you get your consults?
Yes, had a consult and am going to retain an atty.
My part of the cookie will most likely always be bigger even after she gets her pound of flesh in a D.
Naturally I want to minimize the damage and the old her would never be the vindictive type as she avoids conflict, but this new version of my W is a complete enigma to me. She has gotten so cold so fast, I have no idea what she is capable of. I am just shocked at the speed she with which she is trying to end the M and cut off all contact. It really is like an alien has taken over her body.
How can you just move out and shut another person out of your life like that? But then out of the blue text and ask if I would like to have the dog for a few days and pretend like nothing is happening when she drops it off?
This must be in the WW playbook.
Back in August, W asked me to look after the dog for the weekend. No way to know for sure, but it makes sense in hindsight: then she didn't have to be back in town before the kennel closed, freeing her to visit OM on the way back from her conference. Plain as day now. But back then I thought, "Hey, here's an opportunity to show her I've changed!" Ha.
It really is like an alien has taken over her body.
People here say, "Don't believe anything she says." I take it a step further and say, "Believe the opposite of what she says, and if the opposite makes sense from the perspective of a selfish alien, then it's actually more likely to be true." Of course you can't say for sure, don't mind read. But learn to evaluate her behavior from a drastically different viewpoint, and test that against reality to see if it fits.
Hero,
My WAW has gone to great lengths to avoid having any FTF or phone interactions with me. Definitely a Mrs Jeckle/Hyde thing...and it’s been going on for several months.
Some weeks she appears to be the W I fell for.....and on a turn becomes vindictive, cold, and treats me with utter disrespect.
I don’t concern myself with it anymore...
I have retained an attorney, which feels totally deflating, but if I am to potentially set her free, I guess it what is necessary.
My W wrote me back today saying that she does not feel comfortable coming to any agreement without her Atty present. She even went on to say that she hired her atty to make things easier for us.... really for us?
She also goes to say that if I wish to say anything to her in private that out of respect for me she would be willing to listen to me and hear me out but will not agree to terms.
My initial thought is just to have her atty contact mine with whatever terms she has in mind and go from there, but wanted to get the boards opinion about whether I should meet her face to face to discuss...well anything. Before when I thought there was a possibility of having a civil conversation and potentially coming to an agreement, my DB coach said I could take the opportunity to tell her that I do not wish to stand in the way of her happiness and will not try to prevent a D. I also mentioned that I am a recovering NG and have learned a lot and understand better now my contribution to adding stress to the M. My coach suggested that I could let her know what I have learned and maybe even apologize for making things difficult at times. Specifically, I mentioned that I lost my way a few years back and stopped taking care or/prioritizing my needs thus putting a lot of pressure on her. I also am guilty of things such as covert contracts and then acting in a passive aggressive manner when I was frustrated that I did not get what I did not ask her for.
I know it will not stop anything with the D, but do I bother telling her those things? Does it even matter? I read over and over again that WW do not want to hear any of this stuff not do their believe that we are capable of change, so part of me is telling me to use my knowledge to simply better myself and not enlighten her about how I feel. If she wants to know, she would need to ask, right? For the last 2 months, my W has shown no interest in talking to me or even contacting me outside of taking care of the dog or the next steps towards a D.
I can hear my DB Coach in my head asking the question, what does she expect you to do? And how can you show her that this is not the same old Hero18?
I guess what caught me off guard was her offer to listen to me. Is this one of those cheerless tunnels or something I should be taking advantage of?
I appreciate your help and advice.
My W wrote me back today saying that she does not feel comfortable coming to any agreement without her Atty present.
H:"W, I am sorry you chose this path. I believe having two lawyers argue for us will completely drain our family assets. I understand you being uncomfortable talking to just me. I am willing to negotiate with you using a mediator. Would you be willing to find 2 or 3 mediators that look good to you and I will pick one? We can have our lawyers review the documents before we come to any formal agreement. Thank you for considering this alternative"
I can sense that I am in some sort of funk and cannot turn my mind off. I am struggling again with trusting myself that I am doing the right thing here.
I have been reading old texts and emails to help me figure out what I did wrong and where I can do a 180 and something finally clicked.
When I got stressed or upset, I had a tendency to shut other people out and keep to myself until I could process everything. This was really hard on wife and after seeing it multiple times in past texts, I can see it upset her more than I originally thought. I did a poor job of apologizing for this...
I can also see where I contributed to making her feel smothered or that I was being controlling. Again it probably comes from the NGS and being new to the area and not having any guy friends. I never let her go do stuff on her own, I always felt left out and alone and I can see now that I acted in a passive aggressive manner that made her feel bad about taking care of her social needs.
I just feel like I have learned so much and can recognize where I went wrong and if she only knew that I knew that. I know I should be focusing on me and I know that having a logical argument about where I am now versus 2+ months ago with someone in a emotional state is a bad idea, but I still struggle with wanting to try. It is programmed into us since childhood that we should always try, yet DBing is counter intuitive.
Sorry for the rambling, I just want to fix this or at least get another chance to start over.
Send me those 2x4s, I need them
All normal. Feel anything you need to. Just don't do it in front of W.
Remember that everything will be OK. You are doing the needed work.
Time is your friend. Use it wisely.
R2C, I am and have been using the time to better myself. I am doing my best to GAL and have a pretty full plate at the moment with the hobbies that I have re-started after many years. The next step is really making my own network of friends here in a new place, especially guy friends.
I know that I am supposed to detach and not worry about what my W is thinking or doing and for the most part I do not even think about it. It is just that I feel like the last few weeks/months between DBing and seeing a IC I have had some sort of epiphany and see myself in a new way. I am really disgusted with the way I treated myself in the past and as result treated my wife.
Maybe because a D is on my doorstep or maybe it is because our Anniversary is only 2 weeks away, I just feel like I should at least own up to who I was and maybe even apologize for my behavior. Is the reason why I should not do that because of the possibility that I will not be able to do it with some expectation that she reacts positively to it, thus setting me back personally and even the chance of a R?
Again I did a poor job of conveying my feelings, saying I am sorry, and validating her feelings in the M, would it not be a 180 to do that now? Or is it simply a day late and a dollar short at this point?
Would a letter be a better way to avoid falling into the trap of coming across as needy or weak during a face to face meeting? My W used to remark that I never write her anymore and that was something that she cherished in the early years of our R.
My DB coach made some mention that by potentially showing her that I am someone can that learn and grow it may spark her to be more interested in learning about the new me. How do I do that without contact? We do not have any mutual friends in the area and I am not on social media?
Maybe because a D is on my doorstep or maybe it is because our Anniversary is only 2 weeks away, I just feel like I should at least own up to who I was and maybe even apologize for my behavior. Is the reason why I should not do that because of the possibility that I will not be able to do it with some expectation that she reacts positively to it, thus setting me back personally and even the chance of a R?
Use your judgment, but this will probably be interpreted as pressure. Your sitch is somewhat similar to mine and I can tell you that my W can detect pressure even in the things I DON'T do. When they want out, they want out.
Again I did a poor job of conveying my feelings, saying I am sorry, and validating her feelings in the M, would it not be a 180 to do that now? Or is it simply a day late and a dollar short at this point?
Yup. The game has changed. Consider the fact that you didn't marry a monster. Think about the last time you did something you felt was absolutely necessary but you were horrified by how it would affect someone you cared about. Maybe that has never happened. OK, put yourself in her shoes. Pursuit, to me, is more than just "take me back please." It also sends the message, "Please see things my way, and stop trying to cope with your own pain by doing the things you're doing." It's invalidating. She feels that she HAS to do what she's doing to protect her own image of herself. Anything you do to remind her of her guilt will backfire. Maybe a pet analogy: you're moving to an apartment that doesn't allow dogs. You have to bring the dog to the shelter because nobody else can take her. What do you say to the dog? How do you feel? Do you give her lots of treats so that she feels happy...as you're leaving her behind? How do you feel when the dog tries to follow you out the door? What about when she jumps up on the cage and cries as you're leaving? Maybe that's how the WAS feels. Must be awful. Yet they feel they have to do it.
Would a letter be a better way to avoid falling into the trap of coming across as needy or weak during a face to face meeting? My W used to remark that I never write her anymore and that was something that she cherished in the early years of our R.
Again, the game has changed. It won't help. It WILL come across as needy, if not weak. Just about everything you do will come across as needy. Because she will think, "He sent me a letter because HE wants to feel a certain way, or he wants ME to feel a certain way, and I don't feel that way (right now)."
My DB coach made some mention that by potentially showing her that I am someone can that learn and grow it may spark her to be more interested in learning about the new me. How do I do that without contact? We do not have any mutual friends in the area and I am not on social media?
The perennial question. I don't know the answer to that. I'm told that if you really change she will "sense" it, maybe in your tone of voice next time you talk, or your body language and facial expression that sends the message that you're fine, when she expects you to not be fine.
Thanks for the response, Burned.
Any one else have any advice on how to handle the no contact situation? Just continue to give it more time, even if it means up to and after a D? Yes, I know that GAL is for me and not for her, but how else can she see that I am capable of change as opposed to telling her about it?
Also, I am still stuck on the text I received yesterday where my W offers to talk to me and listen to what I have to say. This is the first time since she moved out that she has even remotely mentioning talk to me and listening to me. It was simply a fluke that I was home when she came to pick up the dog a few weeks again and I allowed her to cry on my shoulder. All other times when picking up or dropping off the dog, I have not been home. Is this simply a form of temperature check or is that an opportunity that I should not let pass?
Thanks for the response, Burned.
Any one else have any advice on how to handle the no contact situation? Just continue to give it more time, even if it means up to and after a D? Yes, I know that GAL is for me and not for her, but how else can she see that I am capable of change as opposed to telling her about it?
Also, I am still stuck on the text I received yesterday where my W offers to talk to me and listen to what I have to say. This is the first time since she moved out that she has even remotely mentioning talk to me and listening to me. It was simply a fluke that I was home when she came to pick up the dog a few weeks again and I allowed her to cry on my shoulder. All other times when picking up or dropping off the dog, I have not been home. Is this simply a form of temperature check or is that an opportunity that I should not let pass?
GAL and changes are for you. Who knows if she'll ever notice or even care if she does. Be genuine about making Hero 2.0 a better person and 180/improve on the areas you know you should improve in. Its a process and doesnt happen over night.
So, I took some time yesterday to reread the DB and DR books. Based on my reading, I am leaning towards writing a letter that least apologizes for some of my failings as a H. This would be a 180 from past behavior as the medium and the messaging is different. I can see how it can/will be considered as pursuit, but at this point what else can I lose. We are getting close to the point where we will start discussing a settlement, if I continue my current course of radio silence I will probably end up divorced anyway and wondering why I did not at least try one last time. I am not going to talk about getting back together nor will I be telling her how much I love her. My intent it to explain what I have learned over the past few months and how I see now how I contributed to a break down in the M. I also want to apologize for making her life difficult with my passive aggressive behaviors and indecision. I did a really poor job of saying I am sorry in the past. I would also like to ask that she simply considers what I wrote, maybe even put the D on temporary hold, take a chance and go for a walk with me to see if she wants to get to know who I am now. I will also reiterate that I will not stand in the way of her happiness even if that means me being completely out of the picture.
I am sorry if I am being so bull headed, but this is now day 3 of feeling like this is something I have to do and re-reading all of Sandi's threads (even though I think I am dealing with a WAW/MLC not a WW) and MWD's books again have not convinced me to stop.
I once again turn to the board to help point out what if any holes there are in my plan.
It's your call, man. Just be aware that the DR book was written many years ago, while this board is a living, breathing organism that serves to develop MWD's philosophy and keep it up to date. Something like that.
Also keep in mind that most of the chapters in DR are for couples that haven't had a BD. So a lot of it doesn't apply to us here. Sure, there's a lot to learn about cheeseless tunnels, 180s, goals, etc. But the concepts people use here about pursuit/pressure and so forth, those are more important now. Focus on the chapters about LRT and infidelity.
You can do it if you want but keep your expectations at zero and be very cautious not to write/say/do anything that could be interpreted as "I disagree with you and want you to reconsider and here's why."
One of Sandi's rules is to not insist on showing her the changes you've made. That sends the message, "Hey, look what I did to try to prove that your feelings are wrong and win you back."
Just...tread carefully. I did a lot of that kind of thing before discovering DB, and I pretty much ruined my sitch.
I understand the need to write a letter. I wrote one and gave it to my husband.
It did not make things better, but I am still glad I sent it.
However, if you send it, do not, repeat Do Not, ask anything of her. Not that she thinks about what you wrote, and definitely not that she puts the D on hold and goes on a walk with you. That is 100 percent pursuit.
...I am leaning towards writing a letter that least apologizes for some of my failings as a H......
Write it all out. Refine it over a course of a week. Post it here for input. Refine it more.
I gave a few "Feeling" notes to W during my sitch. I mixed many different expert guides to write them. We still got divorced.
I still believe SHE needs to FEEL the lose of YOU is the only way to turn her around. This is in general and not to you specifically. That is why pursuit never works.
Thank you all for the advice, I did end up writing a letter and a few hours later I burned it. For at least an hour I though back to how I had pursued my W and what that had gotten me. We are S, but at least it is stable. There is no animosity yet and she has not completely shut me out of her life so at this time I will not jeopardize that. Perhaps as we proceed through the phases of the D, my mind will change. May if there were to be a letter in the future it would be to simply detail the end of the relationship as I cannot accept being friends once we are divorced . Maybe this would be the first time she realizes what she has lost...or maybe not.
You know I have had so many better days recently, but the last two weekends have just been brutal for what ever reason. I am really not looking forward to my Wedding Anniversary a week from tomorrow...
Hi Hero, I'm sorry to read about another H who is suffering from the actions of a WW. If you've read my thread "Help for the LBH who has WW", you'll see that the W has formed a foundation of resentment, disrespect, and rebellion. At the point when she drops the bomb, her selfishness and sense of entitlement is her driving force that leads her to break up the MR. When the H experiences the bomb, he is in shock. He tries to figure out what happened. Then he tries to jump into Super Husband mode and do things that he thinks will turn her back into the MR. However, these two people are on an entirely different time frame from one another. He wants to correct everything he might have done wrong, but she's through with the MR.
I have been reading old texts and emails to help me figure out what I did wrong and where I can do a 180 and something finally clicked.
At this point in time, I don't think there is any 180 action that will "nice" her back into the M. You are torturing yourself by going over these old text/emails. I think you are probably experiencing desperation to fix what's broken, but it doesn't work that way. A wayward W is a different breed from what you might read in some marriage help books. She's lost all respect for her H, and that killed her attraction for him. Do you understand what I'm saying? Until she respects you
as a man.....she will not feel desire for you. She doesn't care how much you want to work on the MR and show her how you can change. She is past that point. All those "signs" you listed, and then excused away......is very telling about your MR.
I realize this hurts you to read, and I'm sorry. I'm not saying that all hope is gone forever. I'm just telling you that the feelings you are having about "showing" her your 180's, is not what will wake her up. It's your way of trying to repair or change the H in the past...…..but, she's done with the past, so it won't work. You can't go backwards to fix things. Maybe you need to stop trying to be the H you wished you'd
been, and become the
man you need to be. Stop trying to convince her or persuade her about anything. Leave her alone, and let her go.
The WW respects one thing, and one thing only...…….strength. Therefore, she has to see everything you do as coming from a place of inner strength. Now, before your mind starts jumping into some "nice guy" scenario where you play the martyr while she slaughters you and stripes you of every fiber of self-respect...….let me explain that she does not see that as being strong. She does not respect a man who lets a woman walk all over him...….even if he loves her. She respects the man who stands up to her and puts her in her place (so to speak) when she's out of line. He stands up for himself, instead of cow down and apologize.....hoping that will settle her down. He's not afraid of her anger. The WW has developed a mindset that is cold and hard. She's not the girl you M. So, forget trying to impress her or persuade her with some soft, goody-goody 180 behavior.
You can be the nice guy and try to win her back with cotton candy techniques (like an apology letter), but it will only fill her with disgust. She may, or may not, be obvious about it. But, she will take advantage of you. The WW is going for whatever benefits her most. Why am I telling you all this stuff you don't want to hear? B/c I am being "real" with you, and telling you to stop searching text/emails and stop trying to find your old W in this wayward woman that's come out of the MR. The only hope of reaching her is for you to change your nice guy behavior and learn how to stand up for yourself. WW's need tough love. I'm not endorsing any type of abusive behavior. If you aren't familiar with "tough love", I recommend you google it.
You may not be able to stop the D proceedings. That doesn't mean the two of you can never get back together in the future......if that's what you want. Currently, the boat is sinking and you've got to save yourself. So, get a plan of action in how you'll survive this crisis. I suggest you get your eyes off the M and off the WW, and save yourself. You can't save anything else until you save yourself. I suggest you not use "her" lawyer. Her lawyer is looking out for her best interest......not yours. Sorry to say, but you cannot trust your W at this time. Do whatever you have to do to protect your finances, property, retirement plan, etc. If you have children, be sure you get them, at least, 50 percent of the time. Be fair, but that's all. Giving her
more will not make her feelings change toward you.
Now is the time for you to evaluate your standards and principles by which you live. Don't compromise your integrity or your moral/spiritual beliefs, trying to get back a woman who doesn't want you. Be a man of honor and courage, and do what you believe is right. These are the things to focus on during a crisis.
Based on my reading, I am leaning towards writing a letter that least apologizes for some of my failings as a H.
Please don't. This is your NGS telling you to submit to her, regardless if you're really guilty or not. I'll bet that in the past, you would apologize whenever she acted cold, angry, moody, and you didn't even know what you were apologizing about. It was your go-to plan for fixing whatever was wrong with her.....and you figured it must be something you did, so you'd say, "I'm sorry". This is just your old way of trying to fix things, and she will not respect it.
I can see how it can/will be considered as pursuit, but at this point what else can I lose. We are getting close to the point where we will start discussing a settlement, if I continue my current course of radio silence I will probably end up divorced anyway and wondering why I did not at least try one last time.
You are saying, "Why didn't I try what doesn't work, one last time". It doesn't work!!
At this point, what can you lose? Right...….so why don't you do something different? Why don't you follow what we are telling you? If your way worked, don't you think we would be shouting it from the roof tops? Do you have any idea how many LBH's have tried what you are wanting to do? I've read hundreds of stories like this...…...and not ONE worked successfully by sending an apology letter.
My intent it to explain what I have learned over the past few months and how I see now how I contributed to a break down in the M. I also want to apologize for making her life difficult with my passive aggressive behaviors and indecision. I did a really poor job of saying I am sorry in the past.
Hero, listen to me. She doesn't care! It's too late for all that stuff. She doesn't care what you've learned or how you think you've changed......and she won't appreciate how sorry you feel for past offenses. Just don't do it.
I am sorry if I am being so bull headed, but this is now day 3 of feeling like this is something I have to do and re-reading all of Sandi's threads (even though I think I am dealing with a WAW/MLC not a WW) and MWD's books again have not convinced me to stop.
Well, that's a common reaction, too. Just for the record, MWD does not separate WW and WAW. She lumps them together, which is okay, except the WW usually requires a little tougher love. Do you know why it's tough? B/c it's tough for you. Just like with no contact. It's tough, isn't it? Have you conquered it yet? No, b/c it's tough and you don't like doing it. If you can't manage to stop contacting her, how do you think you will handle a divorce? Don't you think she should experience just a little taste of how life will be without you?
I wouldn't say you are bull-headed. You are in a state of panic. I'm not pro-divorce, but I have not seen anyone die from it yet. Life goes on. In some cases, it gets much better. Stop clinging to someone who doesn't love you and treat you well. Hold your head up and maintain your dignity.
If you have to persuade someone to love you......what does that say about your self worth? Become the man who has attractive attributes (self-confidence, assertiveness, decisiveness, male dominance, leadership, pride, high standards, etc.) and it will draw those who are of quality, and you won't have to
persuade someone to love you.
Thank you all who took the time to read and respond!
Thought I would give you an update on things.
Last weekend while I was wrestling with things, I did something that I was not supposed to do and that was reach out to my MIL. I have known here for 21 years and she has been like a second mother to me. I explained to her that without betraying her D's confidence, I wanted to know if I she thought it was worth it to write a letter or if that would make things worse. Naturally, she wrote back that I put her in an uncomfortable position, but told me that she (my MIL) still loves me. I wrote back that was OK, and I was sorry for putting her in that position and to forget what I asked. I did ask her to please tell my W that whether it is 6 weeks from now or 6 years to now to pick up the phone and call me if she ever felt like wanting to reconnect.
As you know from above, I did give any letter to my W. Instead, I met with my Atty and responded to my W's filing. I then went on a business trip with a large contingent from the office and it was a BLAST! I finally shed some of my NG qualities and took the GAL to heart. I stayed out late drinking, playing cards and laughing my @ss off every night. It was the first time in years that I did not feel guilty for not quitting early to go to my room and make a phone call home. I used to hate business travel, but I found it to be bummer that we had to go home. I know it is only one event, but it made me believe that GAL is possible even if it is exhausting after 4 straight days of partying.
THEN, I got the following text from my W yesterday.
"I think you and I need to talk. Not to talk about the settlement but just to clear the air between us. I have asked my atty to get the court date pushed out until 2019. I felt like maybe we both need some time and a chance to communicate our feelings to each other. I know that you emailed my mom this weekend, which is why I am reaching out to you. I feel like we should probably talk through things with the help of a counselor, but if we need to meet to figure out how to arrange that, I am willing to. I don't know what your schedule looks like over the next week or so, but let me know. If you have no interest in talking to me, please let me know that if that's the case."
I would like to get the boards input here on how to best respond. Firstly, I know not to get excited and not to even think about any expectations. I do not think that this is just a temp check, but the skeptical part of me thinks that this is just a way for her to say later, look we did the counseling thing and it did not work so I was right to leave you. However, there is another part of me that is curious to see how she acts (it must mean something if she is willing to delay the D, right?) and would like to hear what she has to say. I have read other threads where the advice is to respond with an upbeat tone, but not sound too eager. Is that also good advice here as well?
Thank you in advance.
I'm new here but that sounds like much more than a temp check, you lucky duck.
Hero,
I'm following your thread to see what type of responses you get and to read your update after you talk to your W to see how that goes.
Over the last couple days, I've seriously contemplated reaching out to my MIL. My W hasn't told her parents anything about what's going on. Back when the first A took place 5 years ago, I made my W text her mom and tell her what she'd done to me. Probably not the right thing to do, but the point is, my MIL knows her D betrayed me back then.
I'm pretty confident that my W hasn't reached out to her mom because she's afraid her M will tell her she needs to work on the M. From what I can see, she's only reaching out to her sister through this whole mess. Her brother knows about the situation and he's very pro-marriage. He went through a similar same scenario of infidelity earlier this year and they R and have a better M because of it. So, I've been questioning why my W wouldn't be leaning on him for advice or at least talking to him about everything? The answer I've come up with is because he will tell her what she doesn't want to hear. Same thing applies to her mom. W's mom and her are very close, so I'm 99% certain that's the reason she isn't communicating with her about our situation.
I'm sure the advice around here will be to not reach out, but it looks as though you might have received some positive reaction for doing so by the sounds of it.
Please reread sandi's whole post above.
This stands out:
.....But, she will take advantage of you. The WW is going for whatever benefits her most. Why am I telling you all this stuff you don't want to hear? B/c I am being "real" with you
The only hope of reaching her is for you to change your nice guy behavior and learn how to stand up for yourself. WW's need tough love. I'm not endorsing any type of abusive behavior. If you aren't familiar with "tough love", I recommend you google it.
Now is the time for you to evaluate your standards and principles by which you live. Don't compromise your integrity or your moral/spiritual beliefs, trying to get back a woman who doesn't want you. Be a man of honor and courage, and do what you believe is right. These are the things to focus on during a crisis.
That is just the tip of the iceburg.
Here is how I would respond:
H "W, I am not sure how I feel about this. I will let you know my answer when I have decided."
R2C, I appreciate what you wrote. I do not know if I really want to stretch things out.
After having a meeting with my Atty and crafting our response to the D earlier this week, I felt relieved somehow. I also felt a little bit of power because I have regained focus and control on at least part of my life. I am in full protection mode of my assets and finances and I know that I am going to be fine at least financially afterwards. I feel like I am living in a game of chess (or maybe even boxing) now and my W is my opponent. While it was not the "right" thing to do, I prompted an action and got a very unexpected reaction and while the motives are not 100% clear, I am willing to see what her further actions (not words) will be.
I kind of feel like just going ahead and having a conversation and seeing in which direction it goes. I am prepared for it to go in a way that I do not wish and respond/react appropriately. I think I can provide the necessary tough love. I have thought a lot about what it means to just let her go and it gets easier everyday. I have a new network of close work colleagues who I finally told about my sitch and it turns out that half of them have been in my shoes and they have really been awesome.
Just to be clear I do not want a D, but if that is her direction, let's get this thing over with so I can get it out of the way.
I was thinking of responding with something simple like " W, I would welcome an opportunity to have a dialogue and I am willing to talk to you next week after I return home. Once I know my exact schedule, I will let you know what day(s) work best for me.
Just to be clear I do not want a D, but if that is her direction, let's get this thing over with so I can get it out of the way.
Tell us more about your thinking here...
Do you understand counter-intuitive? This should be your thought process: "THIS IS NOT WORKING FOR ME"
I do not know if I really want to stretch things out.
Then decide.
Just to be clear I do not want a D,
We do not want you to get divorced either.
but if that is her direction, let's get this thing over with so I can get it out of the way.
Why are you giving HER all the power? What would an alpha male do?
I was thinking of responding with something simple like " W, I would welcome an opportunity to have a dialogue and I am willing to talk to you next week after I return home. Once I know my exact schedule, I will let you know what day(s) work best for me.
This sounds weak. AND SHE ALREADY KNOWS THIS.
There are reasons I worded the message the way I did.
Do some research here on AllenA.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=17269or RobX
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=23276
H "W, I am not sure how I feel about this. I will let you know my answer when I have decided."
Is this statement true?
Is this statement what a strong man would say?
Would this statement make W wonder what you mean? Would HER mind wander?
Listen very carefully:
This is a critical moment. You are either going draw her closer by pulling away, or you are going to push her away.
Am i reading this correctly, that you are the one who reached out? Then she responded at some point?
I dont know if im as optomistic as you about the meeting, but i dont see the point of playing games if you initiated it. That said, i wouldnt sound so eager in my response. A simple "im willing to meet, and ill provide you with my schedule when i get back" should be fine. If you choose to meet, dont go in all eager beaver though. Have a well thought out response to ANY scenario that may pop up, and look for advice from here.
Im newer so maybe some vets will come along and tell you differently.
Equalzr, I was just getting ready to write something similar. She is reaching out now, because of an action on my side (contacting the MIL). With respect to R2C said above, I feel if I go back now and pretend like I am not sure about wanting to talk, it is just playing games and she will see through that.
I think keeping in mind that she may try to use this opportunity to take advantage to get whatever she wants, I need to focus on standing up for myself and doling out tough love.
I was thinking of getting back at a later time, because you were GAL and whatnot. Stall a response. Or just say, "I need some time to think about this. I do not know how long it will take me to make a decision on whether to talk to you or not, but I know I need to think about this."
Or something like that?
THEN, I got the following text from my W yesterday.
"I think you and I need to talk. Not to talk about the settlement but just to clear the air between us. I have asked my atty to get the court date pushed out until 2019. I felt like maybe we both need some time and a chance to communicate our feelings to each other. I know that you emailed my mom this weekend, which is why I am reaching out to you. I feel like we should probably talk through things with the help of a counselor, but if we need to meet to figure out how to arrange that, I am willing to. I don't know what your schedule looks like over the next week or so, but let me know. If you have no interest in talking to me, please let me know that if that's the case."
I would like to get the boards input here on how to best respond. Firstly, I know not to get excited and not to even think about any expectations. I do not think that this is just a temp check, but the skeptical part of me thinks that this is just a way for her to say later, look we did the counseling thing and it did not work so I was right to leave you.
Hero, I havent read your whole thread, but the post by R2C caught my eye. Basically, I agree you should have no expectations. I found my XW would say things like this as a way to get me somewhere to deliver bad news. I dont see anywhere where she is really saying that she wants anything to do with you - theres no real reason to suspect that there is a sudden change of heart veiled in the mystery of this text. To me, it could be that she is very angry that you reached out and wants to talk to you about "falling in line" with her plan.
So, I think it's fine to go talk. But I would go in with NO expectations. I agree with you that :"backing off" now seems odd given your pretty clear offer to "talk". But I would not be in a rush "I am pretty busy this week, but I can meet you on xxx or yyy at zzz time." I wouldnt send a feeler email about your schedule needing review or whatever. Just offer a couple options a little ways out. I wouldnt really say much more than that at this point.
Thank you all who took the time to read and respond!
Thought I would give you an update on things.
Last weekend while I was wrestling with things, I did something that I was not supposed to do and that was reach out to my MIL. I have known here for 21 years and she has been like a second mother to me. I explained to her that without betraying her D's confidence, I wanted to know if I she thought it was worth it to write a letter or if that would make things worse. Naturally, she wrote back that I put her in an uncomfortable position, but told me that she (my MIL) still loves me. I wrote back that was OK, and I was sorry for putting her in that position and to forget what I asked. I did ask her to please tell my W that whether it is 6 weeks from now or 6 years to now to pick up the phone and call me if she ever felt like wanting to reconnect.
As you know from above, I did give any letter to my W. Instead, I met with my Atty and responded to my W's filing. I then went on a business trip with a large contingent from the office and it was a BLAST! I finally shed some of my NG qualities and took the GAL to heart. I stayed out late drinking, playing cards and laughing my @ss off every night. It was the first time in years that I did not feel guilty for not quitting early to go to my room and make a phone call home. I used to hate business travel, but I found it to be bummer that we had to go home. I know it is only one event, but it made me believe that GAL is possible even if it is exhausting after 4 straight days of partying.
THEN, I got the following text from my W yesterday.
"I think you and I need to talk. Not to talk about the settlement but just to clear the air between us. I have asked my atty to get the court date pushed out until 2019. I felt like maybe we both need some time and a chance to communicate our feelings to each other. I know that you emailed my mom this weekend, which is why I am reaching out to you. I feel like we should probably talk through things with the help of a counselor, but if we need to meet to figure out how to arrange that, I am willing to. I don't know what your schedule looks like over the next week or so, but let me know. If you have no interest in talking to me, please let me know that if that's the case."
I would like to get the boards input here on how to best respond. Firstly, I know not to get excited and not to even think about any expectations. I do not think that this is just a temp check, but the skeptical part of me thinks that this is just a way for her to say later, look we did the counseling thing and it did not work so I was right to leave you. However, there is another part of me that is curious to see how she acts (it must mean something if she is willing to delay the D, right?) and would like to hear what she has to say. I have read other threads where the advice is to respond with an upbeat tone, but not sound too eager. Is that also good advice here as well?
Thank you in advance.
I've continued you follow your sitch, but haven't responded much since you seem to be getting a lot of good information and advice here. However, I am not sure what the purpose of reaching out to your MiL was. LBSs usually have just a few reasons to violate the "don't reach out to her family and friends" rule and almost all of them are not pure. Usually LBSs do that with expectations. With hopes. With plans. Or with devious intentions. I think even you are trying to justify it to yourself with the "I have known here for 21 years and she has been like a second mother to me.". While true, she is still YOUR W's mother and not YOUR mother.
I think you really need to take a step back and ask yourself what the motivations for reaching out to your MiL are/were. Also, I agree with your assessment. Your W, now that you reached out to her mom, is going to give it the "ol' college try". Not to really try.......but to be able to tell mom "Well, we tried counseling, I delayed the D, but it just couldn't be saved."
You know that these tactics have almost no chance of working, right? They fall under the "pursuit" and "pressure" categories. What can work is to let her go. Give her space. Let her decide for herself whether or not she wants to stay or go.
I've been thinking a lot about this lately. How LBSs try to coerce, force, manipulate, etc their WAS into staying. Do you really wan to be with someone that doesn't want to be with you? That the only reason they are still there is because you contacted mom or dad, or friend or sister or brother, or someone that has influence over them and that person guilted them into staying? Have you ever seen a couple where one has decided they no longer want to be with the other but because of religion or family expectations or whatever, they are staying in the relationship? There is no affection. There is no warmth. It is a marriage of convenience that is really inconvenient.
Love demands that we let our spouse choose. I am not sure if you are religious at all, but one of the things that amazes is God's love for us. God loves us so much that he let's US choose whether to follow him or not. God loves us so much that He let's us decide for ourselves whether to love Him back. Or be obedient to Him. Or to worship Him. Sure He could have forced us to do that. He could have made us so that we did everything He requires of us, no questions asked. But what good would that do? All of us can get a machine for a companion. But where is the love? The warmth? The desire? Do you really want a robot that can't think for itself?
So what if your contacting your MiL had worked. Your W called you and said, I am stopping the D. Wouldn't you always question if that was REALLY what she wanted to do? Would that be a satisfying existence for you?
My guess is that your MIL talked to her daughter. She probably told her how hard it would be on the kids, right as the holidays are approaching. She may have encouraged W to seek professional help. As a mother, these are things I would probably ask my D, especially if I was fond of my SIL.
Her note sounded very polite. I can see how it might be difficult for you not to get hopeful, thinking this is your W "reaching out" to you and suggesting you talk and seek counseling. I think you will feel that you have to meet to hear what she has to say...….b/c you'll think if you turn it down that you'll always wonder if that was your chance to save the MR and you didn't take it. There have been many LBH's to go through this same experience, and they can't help themselves. They jump on everything that moves.
I wish having a heart to heart would change the direction of things, but if she has some other guy waiting in the wings, I don't think a heart to heart will work.....nor will MC. I do agree that you shouldn't respond with something that sounds like you are simply playing games.
I was thinking of responding with something simple like " W, I would welcome an opportunity to have a dialogue and I am willing to talk to you next week after I return home. Once I know my exact schedule, I will let you know what day(s) work best for me.
Well, I would leave out the "Welcome an opportunity to have a dialogue". I would say something like, I will agree to hear what you have to say". As I said, I don't think you'll miss the chance for the R talk, so I will give you some thoughts as though you
are meeting with her.
* Meet in a public place, so if things don't go well, you can get up and walk away whenever you want.
* This is not the time to make jokes, clown around, try to flirt, etc. Be civil, calm, and serious. Act as if it is a business meeting. Be confident above everything else. That's most important.
* Be prepared to listen, rather than you trying to talk. This is not a talk to reconcile. She just wants to "air her feelings". She really is not interested in hearing anything you have to say, b/c she already
knows how you feel. So, go with the intention of just listening.
* Tell her to come alone. Some H's who have experienced meeting for a discussion, were shocked when the WW brought her BFF or father, or someone else. So, tell her not to bring company along if she wants to have a talk with you.
* Listen to hear if she talks about reconciling and doing whatever it takes to save the MR. Does she talk about wanting to save her family, or is talking about
herself. Is she willing to end all contact of any kind with OM? Listen carefully to hear if this all about
her feelings. Listen to hear what she is willing to
do.....other than just attending MC. Is she really willing to roll up her sleeves and work on the MR, or is she looking for a divorce counselor that just tells you how to transition everyone into their new life? If you'll listen closely, I think she'll give herself away. Oh, and if she should say something about acting as if none this ever happened and pick up where the MR left off...…..get up and walk out. That is a sure sign of a WW who does not want to do the necessary work.
* Observe her emotions. Is she calm? Does she seem humble, haughty, cold, distant, overly friendly, etc. Does she appear peaceful, hurt, or angry? Is her anger barely under control? Can you see her anger when she talks about your faults in the downfall of the MR? Is crying? (Don't let tears confuse you, or make you feel sorry for her, b/c they are for herself.) How does she talk about the kids?
* Do not tell her you don't want a divorce! She already knows it. Repeating it only sounds weak to her ears.
You may be able to come to some conclusions during the talk, but if you are not entirely certain and want to discuss it with the board....then tell her you will think it over and get back to her. IMHO, this is an opportunity for you to show your strength. No matter what she says or how emotional she gets, you are the stronger person. She can't make you break down in front of her. She can't force you to make promises, or plead with her. She can't make you act in any way that would indicate you are emotionally weak.
I may be wrong, but I highly doubt this meeting is a sign that she's having second thoughts. I think it is her way of getting through the holidays and trying to keep Mama off her back. That's my first thought. My second thought is that Plan A is a little shaky right now, so she wants to secure Plan B for the next couple of months.
When a woman says "we need to talk", That translate to you have done something wrong and "She needs to talk and YOU need to LISTEN".
Reread Sandi's post above several times. She is very wise. As she states, she has seen this many times.
If you do choose to go, It is critical that you go to listen to UNDERSTAND.
It is also critical that she sees a completely different man than the one she left.
All the unattractive characteristics should be gone. Sandi listed a few.
Do you have your list of non-negotiables done?
We wish you well. Get your homework done before this meeting. Otherwise the pan will be hot and you will get burned.
Hope to hear from you soon.
I am typing with my phone so I will not be able to get into all of the details, but there has been some major events in the last weeks. Long story short, we are working on starting a new R. Between my DBing activities and my work on recovering from NBS, I have begun making changes in my life that she is very interested in. We have had recent had three “marathon” discussions where we were finally honest with each other and we both validated each other with out defending our past transgressions. I know it is only a beginning, but the path towards reconciliation is at our feet.
I am now focused on making sure I know exactly what I want and that I correctly setup the necessary boundaries that will allow us to start the process of rebuilding trust. I am also focused on controlling expectations.
I would appreciate any advice on piecing or boundaries that the board has to offer.
Thank you!
Great to hear. Managing those expectations is huge! I'm still working on that myself.
You need to come up with boundaries on your own, but here are mine:
-no OM/OW
-Marriage Counseling (MC)
-honesty
-kindness
-fun (dates)
-commitment
Don't initiate those marathon convos. Let her. Make sure your "changes" or 180's stick. Commit to being the person you want to be.
Thanks for the response ovrrnbw, I will start putting to gather my list and post later for feedback.
Since I have a little more time, here is more of the back story.
It is really hard to believe, but it almost feels like a complete role reversal. She is now actively pursuing me. She is texting all of the time, wants to talk, wants to spend time with each other. I am not letting myself get to hyped up about it, because I do not trust everything yet. I am taking a very cautious approach and I am holding my ground. I like the new me and I am not willing to give that up.
These marathon sessions as I called them have been difficult, but I believe necessary. The real breakthrough was when she showed up late one night 7 hours after one of these sessions in tears. She said she could not go on holding back if we are to make it work and that is when she finally admitted to the A. I have never seen anyone that was so finished in my life, she just keep saying how lost she is. Her self-esteem must be at absolute rock bottom.
The funny thing is when she told me, I did not even flinch. I did not get upset, I stayed surprisingly calm. I don't know if it was because she simply confirmed what I believed to be true in my gut or maybe it is the fact that I am no longer the man I used to be, but I simply accepted what she was telling. While what she has done is not acceptable or excusable, I feel that I have gained new and different perspectives over the last few months with the help of this forum and the NMMNG book and I just understand how such a thing happens.
The old me would have flipped out, probably yelled at her, and would have probably held a grudge until the day I die. The old me would feel the need to punish her (passive aggressively) for the rest of our relationship which would have certainly resulted in both of us being unhappy. It pains me actually to look at myself that one and believe that about myself, but I know it is true. I know now that being able to forgive is such an important part of not only a happy R, but for me personally to be happy with myself.
I told her that people in love do not ever forget the hurt they have caused each other. If the stay together it is because they have the ability to forgive each other. (yes, I know I paraphrased a movie quote) I told her that I am willing to forgive, but it is going to take hard work to rebuild the trust and respect for each other and that there are no guarantees that it will work. I know it may sound strange, but I feel at peace with that. If things do not work, I know that I will be ok. My emotions/actions are no longer being governed by fear.
I am sure I am not explaining it the right way, it is not that I do not care if it works out or not, but I feel like either outcome will be equally OK for me.
I will continue to be active on the board to gain further insight and post with updates. I know that I have gotten a lot from others here and I hope that I can return the favor to others during their time of need.
Wow Hero! What an amazing turn of events! And I love that you have learned the value and importance of forgiveness in a relationship between flawed human beings...something all of us are. My H struggles with this most of all. The idea of forgiveness. When he gets hurt by something you do, even if you have the best of intentions, he will never tell you. Instead, he adds it to his growing list of transgressions [and they can be very, very minor] that by the time he confronts you with it, you don’t even remember what he is talking about. After 13 years, you can imagine how long my list must be. It is a sad way to live your life, IMO. Good for you for taking this time to self-reflect. It takes a very brave person to do this - especially when they have been “wronged” by someone else. It would have been much easier to take the victim role and I find it inspiring that you did not go that route. Thank-you for posting and for continuing to be active on the board. (((HUGS)))
Full transparency (IE you have all passwords)
You might want to read "Not Just friends" I have a link here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094
Hero18, what does R look like to you? What are your requirements for her to come back to the MR?
This is a dangerous time. Make it too easy and you set yourself up for the same thing in the future (believe me on this, I have LIVED it!). Stick to the principles. Makes sure your requirements are clear and understood. GO reread the pursuit distance thread. She is pursuing now, but the minute you start she will distance.
Hero, that's great news! But do keep your guard up and don't go rushing back into the R. Take it slow, make sure she does the work she needs to do. Is she still seeing her IC? That needs to continue. MC needs to continue as well. Ease up on the "time and space" side of DB'ing and make yourself more available to her. But don't overdo it with aggressive pursuit. Remember the goal isn't to put things "back to normal" because that didn't work. Both of you need to plan on a lot of hard work. Check into Retrouvaille in your area, it is a fantastic program for establishing healthy communication habits moving forward. Good luck and keep posting!
Thank you for the continued feedback.
I fully intend to keep up on my DB activities and will not give up my new schedule or hobbies. As mentioned above the end goal is to have a new and better relationship, there is no going back to the way things were.
I am still putting together my list and yes it includes a lot of the things already mentioned.
Here are some of my initial thoughts:
Full Transparency (Passwords, access to emails, voicemails, texts whether I actually want to look at them or not)
Positive confirmation that there is no more contact with the OM*
Honesty and Openness
Commitment to putting in the necessary work
Continue with IC to work on self and address issues from past abuse
MC
Fun spending quality time with each other (Joint activities and dates)
I put an * next to the OM, because I am not sure how to solve that issue since it is a co-worker of hers and there will be contact at work. I don't think it is reasonable for me to expect her to quit her job in order to stop contact, right? Or is that my NGS clouding my judgement. The issue with the A is going to be tricky for me to navigate as I feel I need to walk the fine line in making sure she is truly sorry and sincere about her change and punishing her/making her feel back just because of a mood swing of mine. I need to be firm, but just if that makes sense.
Also, she mentioned last week that she was going to call her Attorney to stop the D. I originally told her that was no rush to make decisions and that we are just going to go slow and take it day by day. She now wants to discuss our living arrangements (we are currently separated) and I am sure that she wants to come home. Would it be reasonable for me to add that if she wants to move back in our house that she also needs to stop the D in addition to satisfying my other non-negotiables? Or is that a reach? I guess my line of thought is, if she is serious about making it work then there should not be this weight hanging over our heads. I just don't want to pressure her unnecessarily.
Thanks again for the support!
I put an * next to the OM, because I am not sure how to solve that issue since it is a co-worker of hers and there will be contact at work. I don't think it is reasonable for me to expect her to quit her job in order to stop contact, right?
This should be your #1 non-negotiable. Unemployment is at an all-time low. Sandi just posted on someone else's thread about the addictiveness of A/OM. My W and I were doing quite well for about 2 months, until she went back to school and saw OM. Within a week she wanted S and it was all downhill from there.
I say try it out, see how she reacts. If she says, "Oh but that would be such a pain," then be skeptical. If she says, "Ugh, that stinks, but if it's what needs to happen then I'm open to it," you're good to go.
Hero, I was a WW H sometime ago. My OW was a co worker. Fortunately she was transferred to another working facility. I managed to keep N/C with her while working together but it was really hard. It was an addiction. I agree with Burned, the N/C rule is a must do.
Actions have consequenses. She must face reality, so do you.
Keep strong man. Keep moving into amoafwl.
I put an * next to the OM, because I am not sure how to solve that issue since it is a co-worker of hers and there will be contact at work. I don't think it is reasonable for me to expect her to quit her job in order to stop contact, right?
This should be your #1 non-negotiable. Unemployment is at an all-time low. Sandi just posted on someone else's thread about the addictiveness of A/OM. My W and I were doing quite well for about 2 months, until she went back to school and saw OM. Within a week she wanted S and it was all downhill from there.
I say try it out, see how she reacts. If she says, "Oh but that would be such a pain," then be skeptical. If she says, "Ugh, that stinks, but if it's what needs to happen then I'm open to it," you're good to go.
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Many LBSs with WASs that had As with coworkers have fallen into this trap. "But we need the money." "She loves her job."
R is about her putting you back to the proper priority in her life that you should be. Make finding a new job a stipulation for R. Personally, I do not understand how a LBS could tolerate moving into MR 2.0 and piecing and Ring if the WAS still has regular contact with OP.
Hero18, if you think your sitch has been difficult, wait until you start piecing and Ring. It is by far the hardest endeavor I've ever embarked on. Bar none. This is why the D rate is so high, because it is actually easier to throw in the towel, give up and get a D. Piecing and Ring will require tremendous effort, self-control, and patience. I cannot imagine that being possible with the OP still in the picture. So cut him out of it.