once burned... - DivorceBusting.com

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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2808040&page=11

I have a very wayward WW. In fact I think maybe I married a crazy person.

I've been chipping away at this post for a few hours now, since around 2 AM. I tried to keep it short. Here are the highlights:

The pattern I discerned is that things improved when WW was NC w/ OM, and things deteriorated quickly at other times. I think the "other times" are times during which she resumed contact w/ OM. Every movement toward R coincides with loss of contact with OM. Every downturn (ILYBNILWY, asking for S, asking for D) coincides with a return to school after a month or two away.

I thought I had busted the A. I now think it's still going. It has now been a year, off and on but mostly on. I stopped talking about the A as recommended by DR. I think maybe WW saw that as permission to continue it.

Her anger is just a giant smokescreen. It shifts blame. She acts the victim. Every statement, every action serves to protect that image she has of herself as a "good girl" who was forced to do what she did. It absolves her of the Catholic guilt. I've been losing weight and sleep because WW wants to feel less badly about herself.

Lie after lie after lie. And then more lies. And then nice words to appease me and keep me docile. Resentment.

My parents were right when they said WW was out the door a year ago.

Steve was right with the monkey swinging from tree to tree analogy. He was also right when he reminded me that WWs rewrite marital history.

AnotherStander was right that I've been her plan B all along.

Hoosjim is right that I've just enabled it every step of the way, in the name of being a nice guy.

Amoafwl, ovrrnbw, neffer -- everyone else is right that I need to GAL.

Davide is right that I definitely don't want to be stuck in this phase. I'm feeling the kind of anger that leads to very, very bad things.

It's taking all of my strength not to go back to the house, tell her everything I've realized, kick her out, dump her on the curb with enough money to survive, and never speak to her again.

I deserve to be treated better. I am not a victim.

How do you forgive this kind of thing? Why do we stand?

Aside from taking a deep breath and going for a long walk...

...what do I do now?

And then the feeling of, what�s worse, her happy in the arms of another, whether it�s him or someone else? Or her being alone and unhappy?

I think she�s better off with me. Meaning I need her in order to feel good about myself. Or I feel I need to protect her from making bad choices. Meaning I�m not letting her walk her own path. It all comes back to my needs above hers. She was right.

Crazy what you learn from this. I have a lot of work to do...

It�s a marathon B...be patient. Keep DBing: keep working on yourself.

Detach, GAL.

Be strong man.
Sending you a big hug.

"That was a really downbeat way to end the post, so let me add before I go: I repeat-- Your sitch is not, I think, without hope! Not yet, at least. BUT YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY GOT TO CHANGE YOUR APPROACH! WRT yourself as well as WRT your W. You, burned, have this in you! But its up to you. Stop being the victim and start making things happen for YOU."

What does WRT mean?

with regard to

Hoping to get more advice from the grown-ups. Need some encouragement so I can sustain hope.

The question: what else do I have, except filing for D, to show her that I�ll stand up for myself?

If I were more detached I wouldn�t care whether she respects me or not. But at some point, if there�s any chance for R, there has to be respect.

Unless NOT filing for D is a 180 that starts me on a new trajectory toward standing up for what BURNED thinks is right?

All I can think of is that a week ago when I brought up D for REAL, she walked things back a little. Was that a sign to move more in that direction? I have the paperwork. Would a service of process open her eyes? Is that manipulation? Is it pressure/pursuit?

Marathon, marathon. Breathe, burned, breathe.

Also: Led Zeppelin�s �D�yer Mak�er� should be the anti-DB anthem.

You don�t need to D to show her that. All you need to stand for yourself is to stand for yourself ;-)

Detach man. GAL

Another good one is star star from the RS...

Don�t forget: DB is to help yourself, use the time wisely.

Hey burned...I am not up to speed on your sitch, but I see that you are struggling.

I am sure you have received some great advice. I'm gonna try to catch up.

Slow down and breath. It usually isnt as bad as our fears make it out to be.

Have you ever heard, slow is fast and fast is slow? Many times when we are impatient, we rush things and miss many of the details, which causes the need to circle back to revisit them. Again, slow down and breath.

I want to post to you....but it isn�t going to be any different from what I�ve already said.

How are you DIFFERENT now than you were a month ago? How would your M be any different if your W did �wake up�?

Look. YOU shave to do the work now. There is no shortcut or easy button.

Stop focusing on your relationship with her. It�s frankly irrelevant at the moment.

Go out and actually start to GAL. Learn what it�s like to date yourself. Learn what�s important in life to you. Take stock of your priorities, your goals, your dreams. Not for a day. Or a week. But for months. Several. Months.

Until you start taking the advice, the advice is going to remain the same....no matter who you ask.

I can vouch for GAL. Until I started eagerly pursuing things that make me happy, I was sad, depressed, and miserable. Now I can actually say I'm quite content. H is stuck, but I now realize that whether we stay together or not, I am prepared to have a full, content life. Of course I have periods of sadness, but that's o.k. Who doesn't,? What really helped me is rediscovering my faith.

I�m GALing hard right now at a wedding with my colleagues...who are all psychologists. But I took a bathroom break to check back here, mostly because I�m completely overwhelmed by what they decided to tell me after a few drinks.

W worked at my place of work for a couple years (until the day after BD), and she was always with me at various parties, so my colleagues know her well. And they are very fond of me, but not her.

There now seems to be a unanimous opinion, from people who don�t even know each other but know W and I and have seen us interact over the years. This includes my parents, my friends, and now my work family.

The unanimous opinion appears to be that I have been M to an emotionally abusive, selfish, naive, manipulative, passive-aggressive, vindictive, and �prickly� woman...the entire time. The A was just an inevitable step along the trail for W. She takes what she needs and leaves the bones behind.

Not one person I�ve talked to has held back now that things are out in the open. And what they�re telling me is fairly hard to digest.

The woman I thought I knew never existed.

I�m just completely floored. I have no idea what to do with this. Im trying as hard as I can to remind myself that this isn�t a dream. It�s going to take a lot of work to convince myself that I�m the only person who really understands. And repairing the MR would probably cost me the respect of everyone who cares about me.

I�ve been standing for an illusion. Unless this is an inevitable step in the process of �people wanting to help,� I think I just saw the writing on the wall.

All that advice you heard tonight supporting your "cause" is probably the same stuff your wife is hearing from her camp. If you truly believe all of that, why did you get married in the first and how is it that no one saw any of that before now?

You should be at the wedding to have fun, not talk about your sitch. Plus, what is talking about your sitch doing? Providing clarity? Destressing? Detaching? Or just causing anxiety?

Are you going to decide how to handle this on your own, or have everyone's words affected you to the point where now you are going to file for divorce? If their advice isn't that important, and you're going to decide on your own anyways, of what use was the advice? Maybe you should talk to an IC or trusted person about your sitch when you need to, but I don't agree with talking to all your coworkers about your sitch. I just don't see any benefit for you, but feel free to let me know if I am missing something here.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

If you truly believe all of that, why did you get married in the first and how is it that no one saw any of that before now?

Supposedly they always knew it but chose not to tell me because they don�t consider it polite to meddle in other people�s relationships...until they decide that the relationship is over. Hmm.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

Plus, what is talking about your sitch doing? Providing clarity? Destressing? Detaching? Or just causing anxiety?

It�s a long story but it comes down to my own mistake of having been too public in the beginning. I regret it. Now everyone has advice. Especially the ones who are so much happier after their own Ds. Mainly it was distressing.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

Are you going to decide how to handle this on your own, or have everyone's words affected you to the point where now you are going to file for divorce?

Here�s the heart of the matter. I�m learning that a lot of the things I do in life have been because of what I�m told or what I think people will think. Lightbulb.

Amoafwl, I can see now why you might feel frustrated. It�s almost like I beg for advice and then stubbornly reject it. Great, another lightbulb.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

Maybe you should talk to an IC or trusted person about your sitch when you need to, but I don't agree with talking to all your coworkers about your sitch. I just don't see any benefit for you, but feel free to let me know if I am missing something here.

You�re not missing anything. I�m realizing that I need to start buttoning things up. In fact, I think my chances of R were slim from the start on account of how publicly I�ve been dealing with things after BD. Let that be a lesson to the people reading this.

So, time to stop acting like this forum is my IC, and time to start focusing on me and my future.

Today�s GAL: food and music in the city.

I think it would have been perfectly acceptable last night to say something like �thank you for your thoughts, but let�s talk about something else.� I find now that when the topic of my ex-wife comes up, I hardly talk and just let whoever else is with me have their own conversation. Nobody else really KNOWS much - they are just reflecting on their experiences and their relationships with her - that doesn�t mean a whole lot in considering my past relationship. The long and short of it is that your friends want you to feel better. The easiest way is to trash on W. It could be real, could be their impression, could be figments of their imaginations. It doesn�t matter. They are just trying to help you �get over it� and feel better.

Now how about some actual GAL where you don�t spend hours contemplating your marriage...?

Originally Posted by Amoafwl

Now how about some actual GAL where you don�t spend hours contemplating your marriage...?

I�ll set that as my goal for today.

Burned,

I'm in the same boat in which everyone in my corner is now telling me they never liked or cared for WAW. Saying she was an emotional bully, vindictive, manipulative, selfish, etc.

I'm sure that I am now the biggest SOB A-hole that walked the earth in the eyes of WAW family/friends....

I don't give it two thoughts anymore...as I know the only people that really no the dynamics of my relationship are me & WAW. Unfortunately WAW is so far down the rabbit hole as it stands she won't even have an adult conversation with me and just stays in her own head and let's the perception of me that's she's created fester.

It [censored], but the reality is that I do believe her pride & ego are really the only deterrents that are standing in the way of R. She doesn't want to eat crow and look like a jerk if we were to come back together.

Well then we have a lot in common in terms of what brought us here.

As to how to get to the point where it doesn�t grind up my insides, I�m hoping GAL will help.

Originally Posted by LITB

Slow down and breath. It usually isnt as bad as our fears make it out to be.

Gonna re-read this often. Thank you, and thanks for any insights you might have.

GAL, ftw.

Pretty girl sitting off to the side of the concert hall. I go to concerts here once or twice a year. I�ve seen her before but back then it was irrelevant. Today she was there with those cute boots. No rings on her hands.

I�m probably kidding myself, but she seemed to have intentionally walked near me on the way out. Sadly she was with her parents, and I�m deathly shy.

Anyway, a little taste of what�s in store for me. Refreshing. Detachment. I hope she�ll be there next month.

So, next question for the grown ups: how does one build up the nerve to strike up a conversation with a complete stranger?

Originally Posted by burned

GAL, ftw.

Pretty girl sitting off to the side of the concert hall. I go to concerts here once or twice a year. I�ve seen her before but back then it was irrelevant. Today she was there with those cute boots. No rings on her hands.

I�m probably kidding myself, but she seemed to have intentionally walked near me on the way out. Sadly she was with her parents, and I�m deathly shy.

Anyway, a little taste of what�s in store for me. Refreshing. Detachment. I hope she�ll be there next month.

So, next question for the grown ups: how does one build up the nerve to strike up a conversation with a complete stranger?

If you have the guts to deal with a WW/WAS and all their rejections, anger, and general unpleasantness along with managing your sitch then talking to an attractive woman who is a stranger should be a lot easier. A strangers rejection will never be worse than your spouses rejection. Just make sure you know where your are emotionally and mentally and where you want to take this.

Originally Posted by Twofeet

If you have the guts to deal with a WW/WAS and all their rejections, anger, and general unpleasantness along with managing your sitch then talking to an attractive woman who is a stranger should be a lot easier. A strangers rejection will never be worse than your spouses rejection.

Amen.

---

Tonight is my first night in the "new" apartment, the temporary one in which I'm staying until next week when I move into the real one.

Oh, and it has been exactly 3 months since S. Lovely.

But, but: I am maybe starting to DB? With my brief but intense feeling of confidence and detachment (it's already fading), I was able to fend off a frontal attack from WW via text. Grown-ups and vets, please rate my performance on a scale of 1-10, because it made me very uncomfortable to do something different.

---

[Burned's commentary in brackets]

WW: Hope you got to see the sunset, it was pretty. [hadn't heard anything from her in 2 days; she always starts her temp checks with something nice]

Burned: Yes, I did. It was amazing.

WW: You're moving this week, aren't you? Are you doing OK?

Burned: Yes. [not taking the "how are you" bait anymore]

WW: OK, good. And will you let me know what you need from the house? You'll need blankets and sheets, at least, right? [sure, act like you give a hoot]

Burned: Thank you. I got a bunch of stuff from my mom. [don't need your charity, and I certainly don't need anything that reminds me of the house]

WW: OK. I know you don't want to take the house apart, but please ask me if you need anything. [what difference does it make to you if we take the house apart? you're the one who asked for this]

Burned: Thanks.

WW: You're welcome.

WW: Also, I found the old bookshelf if you need a place to store books. But whatever. [do I detect some frustration because I'm not responding in my usual way?]

WW: Oh, and your nice down jacket is here, too. [what exactly are you trying to accomplish here? this doesn't feel like it's entirely about any specific belongings that are important to mention...]

Burned: Thanks. I could use the bookshelf, and definitely the jacket. [straight and to the point]

WW: Yeah, it has been cold lately. Anyway, let me know when is a good time for you to come get it. [thankfully I was driving, so I didn't say "how about now" although in hindsight I'm wondering if that's what she was after]

Burned: I will, thanks.

---

And that was the end. Notice how much she was pursuing, and how relatively nonchalantly I was responding.

So I felt good about myself for another hour. But then the uncomfortable feelings started to set in.

Was I rude by not saying "good night" at the end? But that's what she was expecting. And sorry, lady, but I just saw a city full of Plan As for Burned, and Burned isn't your Plan B anymore.

But did I miss an opportunity? Was she reaching out? Could tonight have been the night that Burned and WW had sex for the first time since S? Ha! No. Burned only sleeps with Plan As.

I probably did OK, but I'm feeling very uncomfortable. One moment I'm proud of myself, the next moment I'm afraid I screwed something up. Counterintuitive, this DB stuff. But also informative. Because my fear of her anger has been a longstanding theme in our relationship, and in hindsight it has been a very useful way for her to control me, especially since BD. Hmm...

You failed by responding to that garbage text she sent in the first place. Did she ask a question? Then no response is required. If she asks a question, you answer as briefly as possible, preferable with a "yes" or "no".

So she checks to make sure your own the hook still. Then you tug back on the other end of the line. She thinks "great" I still have this fishy.

Then, she moves on to torment you by asking about you getting your crap out of your shared home.

You're improving, but you can still get better.

Quote

Was I rude by not saying "good night" at the end?

Are proper manners big to her? I see you state she is having affair, so I guess being polite and respectful to each other is not the highest priority to her.

Quote

Did I miss an opportunity?

You missed the opportunity to not respond to her statement and in turn show her that you don't care for trivial conversations and leave it up to her to wonder why you didn't respond.

Quote

Was she reaching out?

It appears so. Unless you meant literally reaching out with her hand. If you meant using her hand, I don't know.

Quit fearing her anger. If you do this right, she will get angry. Anger is secondary emotion, it is used when people are upset or fearful or scared and it used to hide that primary emotion. She won't like it if you stop responding to her BS texts, but that's a good thing.

Thanks ovr. Not sure if there is an active A but OM is still a presence. I trust nothing she says, so it's anyone's guess.

Felt good about taking back some self-respect but it was such a tiny little thing and it didn't last the night. She's at school today sitting in the same room as OM, and my little imagination is saying, "See, you ticked her off, now she's going back to him."

But I'm working on not really caring what she thinks or why. I'm not her Plan B.

For now I am my own Plan A.

That�s good B. Use that energy to detach some more. You survived a temp check. Next time take your time to see if there�s need to answer those questions or when to do it. Keep moving.

You are plan A. Great!

Was it really a temp check? I'm fighting this feeling that it was a genuine attempt at being kind to me. It never feels as manipulative as everyone else tells me it is (including people in real life).

So I just need to keep being strong. Why does it feel like this hurts me more than it hurts her?

Yep. You trust nothing that she says...

Keep strong and detached. It takes time and patience.

[Burned's commentary in brackets]
WW: Hope you got to see the sunset, it was pretty. [hadn't heard anything from her in 2 days; she always starts her temp checks with something nice]

So, here, I agree with the comment above that no response was necessary. Why did you choose to reply to this?

Burned: Yes, I did. It was amazing.

WW: You're moving this week, aren't you? Are you doing OK?

Burned: Yes. [not taking the "how are you" bait anymore]

WW: OK, good. And will you let me know what you need from the house? You'll need blankets and sheets, at least, right? [sure, act like you give a hoot]

Burned: Thank you. I got a bunch of stuff from my mom. [don't need your charity, and I certainly don't need anything that reminds me of the house]
To me, this sounds weak. A grown man collecting handouts of sheets from his mom? These are details you dont need to share. I would have replied something like: "Im putting a plan together for what I still need. Let's discuss in a couple days what I can take from the house." I dont agree that it's "charity" to split your belongings in a fair way. I would say that things like towels or a blanket arent going to remind you of "that house". But if you want to get all new, have it. I just think you should get some of the things to ease the expense of moving, which is already costly.

WW: OK. I know you don't want to take the house apart, but please ask me if you need anything. [what difference does it make to you if we take the house apart? you're the one who asked for this]

Burned: Thanks.

WW: You're welcome.

WW: Also, I found the old bookshelf if you need a place to store books. But whatever. [do I detect some frustration because I'm not responding in my usual way?]

WW: Oh, and your nice down jacket is here, too. [what exactly are you trying to accomplish here? this doesn't feel like it's entirely about any specific belongings that are important to mention...]

Burned: Thanks. I could use the bookshelf, and definitely the jacket. [straight and to the point]

Again, this feels weak. Like you are just taking the things she offers as handouts. Why not put together a list proactively so you can be incharge of your domain rather than taking the things she chooses for you?

WW: Yeah, it has been cold lately. Anyway, let me know when is a good time for you to come get it. [thankfully I was driving, so I didn't say "how about now" although in hindsight I'm wondering if that's what she was after]

Burned: I will, thanks.

Basically, I think you need to figure out how to be more alpha. How can you take control of your life and what you want in it. She is a business associate now...not your wife, partner, or mother (as it looks like in this exchange...."dont forget your coat, dear!"). Make decisions and figure out what YOU want.

Originally Posted by burned

GAL, ftw.

Pretty girl sitting off to the side of the concert hall. I go to concerts here once or twice a year. I�ve seen her before but back then it was irrelevant. Today she was there with those cute boots. No rings on her hands.

I�m probably kidding myself, but she seemed to have intentionally walked near me on the way out. Sadly she was with her parents, and I�m deathly shy.

Anyway, a little taste of what�s in store for me. Refreshing. Detachment. I hope she�ll be there next month.

So, next question for the grown ups: how does one build up the nerve to strike up a conversation with a complete stranger?

I mean......what are your goals here with some other woman? Are you trying to save your marriage or not?

Im glad that you were able to go do some kind of GAL where you didnt dwell on your relationship.

But how can you do something where you will be mingling and interacting with new people? And not in a one-on-one female interaction....

burned,

I get the same thing, text text text. If she wanted to make an attempt she would have asked to see you in person. Nothing but a temp check and bait to pull you in. I'm only saying this from experience because my WW does it so much and I am improving but have by no means mastered the responses or emotions. Keep working at it.

I also see your thoughts and whether you think she is reaching out and if this is a chance to have sex with W first time since S. My WW and I have been at that off and on all summer and at first I thought this could be my last chance with W before D, then it happened again and again and again. Now I say this is BS why am I the backup plan and honestly it is causing problems that I have never had before and am trying to avoid. It also sets me back mentally but I have to admit I don't have the feelings I had months ago as she continues down her wayward path and that is only through not cheating when it comes to GAL and detachment. It has to be real.

Originally Posted by Amoafwl

I mean......what are your goals here with some other woman? Are you trying to save your marriage or not?

I didn't so much as talk to her. I have no goals in that regard. It just gave me a nice feeling of, "I'll be OK, even without WW. Look, maybe I could even end up with someone like that, pretty and likes similar music."

I'm just all over the place right now. I want to "save my M" but the M is dead, so what I really want is a new M w/ WW if/when she is done being wayward. So SHE is the focus, not the cruddy MR we used to have.

Where I struggle is with the notion that she has already moved on. I really get the feeling that if she met someone nice tomorrow she'd consider it fair game to pursue him. Burned is old news, tried and failed, never going back. Like, not even back to the old MR, just that I'm damaged goods in her mind, not worth risking getting...burned...by me ever again.

Like, a few minutes ago I imagined how complicated things would be if she started dating someone in the small town where we live. I mean, A w/ OM in another state is easy in comparison to the sort of complicated "Now what?" that that would engender. And the thought of her dating anyone, and then me having to live with that. Not sure why the A is different in my mind. I mean when I imagine her saying the sweet things to him that she used to say to me, I get pretty queasy. But for some reason it's easier to handle.

Originally Posted by Amoafwl

Im glad that you were able to go do some kind of GAL where you didnt dwell on your relationship.

Sadly, until the very end when I saw the pretty girl, I was dwelling on it. The rest of the day was good because I had something else for my mind to stick to.

Originally Posted by Amoafwl

But how can you do something where you will be mingling and interacting with new people? And not in a one-on-one female interaction....

Still working on this. There's a neat little pub in the neighborhood where I moved to. Might start being a "regular" there. Also there are some nice people in the new apartment complex, I bet I'll end up running into them and maybe hanging out at some point.

I hear you about the alpha vs. beta stuff. I was never very alpha. I can't even fathom where to begin in that regard.

Originally Posted by lost8

If she wanted to make an attempt she would have asked to see you in person.

I think you're right. But in the moment I think to myself, "Well, she won't be that direct because she's afraid I'll latch onto her and think we're together again. So maybe she is hinting, and I need to make the move."

I know I'm wrong, and I'm glad I didn't. But it's the third week in a row that she has texted me on Sunday night offering for me to come get something. Maybe it's guilty conscience about whatever she is thinking of doing w/ OM at school the next day?

Each and every time, I was driving and far from home, so I didn't take the bait. But I'm starting to see the pattern and I can't help but wonder.

I mean at the very least, it's the kind of thing I've been told to expect when I start to pull away. She starts to pursue a little.

Could it be a baby step? Like, not anything to take seriously, but signs of movement?

It could be but like I said before...if she wanted to see you, SHE would come to you instead of asking for you to come to her...just my opinion.

Like I said with my sitch, and I deserve the biggest 2x4s for continuing to sleep with a WS. Two months ago we would go to the MBR and I would end up sleeping there. Even my S14 would say why are you up here.

After I fully detached and moved to my room now when we happen to get into any type of disagreement I can easily go to my room and it has been her coming into my space to pursue me. Again, fulfilling for a short period of time because I know where her head is but I stay out of her room. Have to let them pursue you.

Originally Posted by burned

I didn't so much as talk to her. I have no goals in that regard. It just gave me a nice feeling of, "I'll be OK, even without WW. Look, maybe I could even end up with someone like that, pretty and likes similar music."

Understood. And bravo. But, until you get YOU sorted out, a pretty face on a girl that likes the same music as you is just that. I imagine you had similar thoughts about W years ago. Take the time now to figure out what is important to you so you can find a partner who matches that.

Originally Posted by burned

I'm just all over the place right now. I want to "save my M" but the M is dead, so what I really want is a new M w/ WW if/when she is done being wayward. So SHE is the focus, not the cruddy MR we used to have.

Right. Thats why we are telling you to slow down and just live for a while. You wont figure all of this out in a day. Time to get BURNED under control.

Originally Posted by burned

Where I struggle is with the notion that she has already moved on. I really get the feeling that if she met someone nice tomorrow she'd consider it fair game to pursue him. Burned is old news, tried and failed, never going back. Like, not even back to the old MR, just that I'm damaged goods in her mind, not worth risking getting...burned...by me ever again.

Who cares what SHE is doing or thinking right now? Let her go be with some other guy for now. It's her life and her choices. Frankly, what she does isnt that important. You can discuss all of those choices and whether they are things you can handle later. Cross that bridge when you get to it.

Right now, you are setting up many many bridges that may not exist. Focus on the here and now and what you CAN control.

Originally Posted by burned

Like, a few minutes ago I imagined how complicated things would be if she started dating someone in the small town where we live. I mean, A w/ OM in another state is easy in comparison to the sort of complicated "Now what?" that that would engender. And the thought of her dating anyone, and then me having to live with that. Not sure why the A is different in my mind. I mean when I imagine her saying the sweet things to him that she used to say to me, I get pretty queasy. But for some reason it's easier to handle.

So......stop worrying about it. You are making yourself sick with what ifs. They dont matter. They are a waste of your energy. How much music did you miss because you were thinking about this?

Originally Posted by burned

Sadly, until the very end when I saw the pretty girl, I was dwelling on it. The rest of the day was good because I had something else for my mind to stick to.

Perfect. What are you doing today to keep your mind busy?

Originally Posted by burned

Still working on this. There's a neat little pub in the neighborhood where I moved to. Might start being a "regular" there. Also there are some nice people in the new apartment complex, I bet I'll end up running into them and maybe hanging out at some point.

Make sure that you a making healthy choices. No sense in trading in one problem for another. How about meetup? What hobbies do you have? What hobbies would you like to try? And dont WAIT to bump into someone - how can you be more proactive? YOUR happiness is YOUR responsibility.

Originally Posted by burned

I hear you about the alpha vs. beta stuff. I was never very alpha. I can't even fathom where to begin in that regard.

So.....does that mean you are not going to work on it? You seem to make a lot of excuses. "I want to do XX...but it's hard." And then you dont do it. Of course its hard to break however many years of habits. But now is the time to do it. Again....you need to take ownership and responsibility for your own life.

Amoafwl, you're on my case like a spider monkey, and for that I am thankful.

Gotta do a 180 on the excuses. And one of my goals is to figure out how to set goals. Any ideas?

Today I'm staying occupied by being at work. Tonight I'm going back to the apartment to just REST after a busy weekend. Usually down time is bad, but this time I'm giving it to myself, as a treat.

Hobbies are going to pick back up again when I have the new, bigger apartment starting next week. I want to learn to play the piano, so tonight I'll be online searching for a used keyboard on that website where you buy used things from local people.

Originally Posted by Amoafwl

...slow down and just live for a while. You wont figure all of this out in a day. Time to get BURNED under control.

Originally Posted by Amoafwl

Right now, you are setting up many many bridges that may not exist. Focus on the here and now and what you CAN control.

A couple of sticky notes. Gotta keep these in mind.

Originally Posted by burned

And one of my goals is to figure out how to set goals. Any ideas?

Im sure there are classes on it. But have you read DR? Theres a whole section on goals. But basically, Id start by figuring out what you want. For example, if you want to be more patient. What does that look like? What do you need to do to achieve that? How are you going to hold yourself accountable? How will you measure your success? And so on.

Originally Posted by burned

Hobbies are going to pick back up again when I have the new, bigger apartment starting next week. I want to learn to play the piano, so tonight I'll be online searching for a used keyboard on that website where you buy used things from local people.

Awesome. Then what are you going to do once you have it? I hope not just sit at home and learn from youtube videos in your apartment......

Originally Posted by Amoafwl

Originally Posted by burned

Hobbies are going to pick back up again when I have the new, bigger apartment starting next week. I want to learn to play the piano, so tonight I'll be online searching for a used keyboard on that website where you buy used things from local people.

Awesome. Then what are you going to do once you have it? I hope not just sit at home and learn from youtube videos in your apartment......

Um...that is no longer my plan, as of just now. :P

Originally Posted by burned

Originally Posted by Amoafwl

Originally Posted by burned

Hobbies are going to pick back up again when I have the new, bigger apartment starting next week. I want to learn to play the piano, so tonight I'll be online searching for a used keyboard on that website where you buy used things from local people.

Awesome. Then what are you going to do once you have it? I hope not just sit at home and learn from youtube videos in your apartment......

Um...that is no longer my plan, as of just now. :P

Surely there is a local meetup where beginners of different instruments can gather and play. Like a jam session or whatever. The point is to get you UP and OUT OF THE APARTMENT where you are interacting with other people and making new friends and developing new relationships. Not necessarily to the point where you are dating....but to where you are building your confidence and self-respect and social network outside of W.

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Was it really a temp check? I'm fighting this feeling that it was a genuine attempt at being kind to me. It never feels as manipulative as everyone else tells me it is (including people in real life).

Dude, she has you so on the hook its not even funny.

Look, I had this whole long detailed post i was going to make, here, but there's just too much to say and, for now, you are barely even doing the tiniest, basic things that you need to do. You want to save your marriage? If so, then you are doing the exact opposite almost to a "T" of what you should be doing, and you are riding (not driving, she's doing that) straight towards the cliff of no return. If you do not change something, perhaps several somethings, particularly WRT your interactions with your WW, and do so SOON, you are going to lose any opportunity you might still have of seeing a reconciliation.

I will say that it was very good to read about you doing some things on your own... but you need to keep that up. GAL's are prolly the most important component of DB-ing because they are 1) For YOU, and 2) also have the related effect of possibly, POSSIBLY improving your R with your W. At the very least, they will help you regain your own confidence and self-respect and maybe even help regain the respect that you have lost from said W. Like i said, i have a lot more to say on this but, for now, WRT interactions with your wife, i would suggest you go back and read Sandi2s threads AGAIN, reread the advice you are getting on here WRT interfacing with your WW (you are getting good advice here, even if you are not following it), and, if you have some time, go back and read through my threads (It's the least you can do, i read through all of yours, right?

) I think you will see some similarities here and there, particularly with how I continually wanted to see little crumbs thrown to me by my WW as some big milestone that meant reconciliation was imminent.

Also, You:

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Was it really a temp check? I'm fighting this feeling that it was a genuine attempt at being kind to me. It never feels as manipulative as everyone else tells me it is (including people in real life).

"I think she's trying to be kind to me..." Really? REALLY?!?!? SHE SLEPT WITH ANOTHER MAN!!!! And, yes, I am yelling! Come on, man, sack up and start acting like the man you are and can be. Ima skip the 2x4 next time and reach straight for my 4x4. Don't make me come over there....

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The pattern I discerned is that things improved when WW was NC w/ OM, and things deteriorated quickly at other times. I think the "other times" are times during which she resumed contact w/ OM. Every movement toward R coincides with loss of contact with OM. Every downturn (ILYBNILWY, asking for S, asking for D) coincides with a return to school after a month or two away.

Okay, so i will briefly touch on this, because it shows that at least you are paying attention, which is good, and are not completely lost/snowed/hopeless. WW's tend to behave after a pattern, saying similar things, covering (or not covering) their tracks in similar ways, similar responses to stimuli. I am not sure that this particular dynamic is peculiar to all WWs, but it was definitely one of my WW's tells. So much so, that i could tell not only when she had been in contact with OM but when she was going to be in touch with OM. There was always an increase in her "niceness" to me and her seeming interest in me, for the times immediately before and immediately after. However, her GENERAL demeanor towards me and the MR during the periods of time when she was most closely involved with her OM (and there was definitely a waxing and waning, there) was unfailingly more negative: "We have no chance", "I can never see us getting back together", "That nice thing i did/said to you yesterday was completely meaningless", as well as her willingness to "do things" with me socially or otherwise. She would definitely distance herself from me in just about every respect-- emotionally, physically, conversationally-- during periods where her relationship with OM was at its most active. Not sure why i mentioned this other than to note that they DO have tells, and your gut feeling is usually right (At least mine was) when they are up to something.

Last point on this, and maybe others have said it but... Don't become overly preoccupied with this particular OM. The OM is not the problem... at least insofar as he is a particular individual. Your wife is wayward. Your wife wants nothing to do with you romantically. THAT is the problem. If your W's relationship with OM ended tomorrow, it would not spell sunshine and rainbows and puppy dog kisses for your MR. Rather, W would merely be in waiting or perhaps actively searching for OM2, and then OM3, etc etc. You need to fix YOU, which might, eventually, help you fix your MR. But merely ending your wifes A... while such an ending is obviously a condition precedent to any reconcilliation... does not gaurantee a reconciliation. The problem is much deeper than one OM.

Now, on to the main thing i wanted to share with you today, and which will hopefully sound a little more positive:

Being your own man, and having your own identity that you bring to a marriage as opposed to "living for the marriage" or "living for the other person." Someone at some point earlier on your thread, mentioned "self-differentiation in marriage." Dont know how much mind you gave it at the time, but it is an important concept. So much of hollywood and entertainment seems fascinated with this idea of being so into someone else that you lose your own identity. The most egregious example of this is "You complete me." BLECCHH!!

You shouldn't need anyone to "complete" you. If you think you need someone else to complete you, that means you are not a complete person. And you know what you get when you combine two incomplete or broken people into one relationship. You get a broken/incomplete relationship. Relationships, particularly MRs, by definition tend to be strongest when each person brings their own complete and autonomous personality to the table. We're talking about the difference between interdependency (a relationship between two or more cooperative autonomous participants) and co-dependency (a relationship where one or both participants cannot function from his or her innate self(-ves) and whose thinking and behavior is/are instead organized around the otherr person). The former is cooperative, healthy, fulfilling, and supportive of the growth of both individuals. The latter is stagnant, ultimately unfulfilling, and can stifle the growth of both individuals as well as the relationship. In the extreme, it can end a marriage Putting it more simply, a MR is more dynamic, vibrant, fulfilling, and exciting when each person has their own identity and is not dependent on the other person for their own joy and happiness. (A joy grounded in faith can be a very helpful, key component of this dynamic, and it is and has been for me, but i know that that is not everyone's cup of tea.)

And i am not talking about the kind of "romantic", limerance-filled, hormonal overdose you experience when you first "fall in love". I am talking, actually, about something deeper, more lasting, more rewarding and, honestly, better in every way. The type of love that is deliberate: "I am a happy, strong, fulfilled individual, but i choose to spend my life with and love this other individual because they are an amazing person in their own right, because I enjoy their company, because we challenge each other, because, as good as we are individually, we are even better together... cooperatively." Maybe that sounds like a fairly narrow shade of distinction, but it is a very important one. When you met and fell in love with your W, you each fell in love with the individual... neither of you had anything of the other in their life previously to shape "who they were", right? But your relationship, i think, at least based on what you have posted... I just scattershot around a little bit and found your 8/21 post where you lamented about your wife: "She wont let me try to fulfill her needs..." as one example, but you have repeatedly posted things to the effect of "she was your everything" and you "dont know what you would do without her" and that the MR was "all about her and what you could do for her." The marriage, as you readily admit, was your whole life. This is co-dependency, and, in the end, it was probably a significant contributor to the death of your MR.

I have only recently come to the full realization of the importance and power of this relationship dynamic but, quite honestly, it is somewhat central to the DB-ing philosophy, and it is absolutely crucial, IMHO, to the long-term health of a MR. I thought about this, and, actually, your sitch, this weekend as i was hanging out with my W, during what was a spectacular weekend. You know what we did this weekend? Absolutely nothing of any significance. In the past four months, we have had getaway weeks/weekends to Cancun, to Dallas, to a nearby casino resoort, and a really fun hot-rod show drive-in movie getaway last weekend for our anniversary, but this past weekend was special because we did nothing but do the "mundane" chores/tasks that had been stacking up for us, and hang out a little bit with each other at the house, and i finally started realizing what was different/special about our relationship now that we had started reconciling: Its that each one of us is "whole" and thus free to be completely ourselves within the relationship. Neither one of us is on eggshells thinking the other might leave or that we might say or do something to drive the other one away. There is a loose-ness, a confidence in both of us that makes the relationship between us stronger, more resilient, more fulfilling and, quite honestly, just a heck of alot more fun. While the memory of her and OM still does hurt at times, I can now comfortably contemplate the possibility of her running off or of life without her, because i am both confident enough in myself and in our relationship that i know it wont happen but also because i know that, even if somehow that did happen, that my life would still be amazing. And i think, for the first time, my W feels the same. In fact, she has told me as much. It is very freeing and allows both individuals to really give their whole selves to the MR without holding anything back. It is a simultaneous exhibition of both strength and vulnerability. I prolly am doing a really crappy job of describing it but, suffice it to say, it is the type of relationship that is impossible to have if you are not completely grounded and confident in yourself... able to have a fulfilling and happy life whether or not you are with your W or, indeed, with any other human being.

And i am not posting the above to rub yours or anyone else's nose(s) in the fact that i seem, for now, to be in a reconciling, perhaps even fully reconciled, MR. I post it to let you know that you, yes you burned, can be that kind of person... the type of person that has that type of relationship but is joyful and confident even if he is on his own. Right now, you feel as if you have no identity without your W, and, in some respects, you dont. Get out there and find one! Right now, you are not relationship-ready. Even if your W were to snap out of her waywardness, she would likely not want a MR with this you. And (2 x4 coming) I am not sure that i could say that i would blame her. That said... you have a LOT going for you. You are clearly a very bright guy, and, you know what? Intelligence is attractive. As is wisdom, and confidence. I have found this out as a 50/51/52-year old staring single-hood in the face. I was initially somewhat (okay, very) shocked to find out that women... even younger (and in some cases much younger), attractive women could be attracted to me, once i started coming out of my shell and becoming the new, improved, ret-conned hoosjim. And, granted, i am somewhat younger looking and in significantly better shape than your average 52-your old man but... I am still a 52-year-old man. What really makes the difference, i have found, is having confidence in yourself and in your interactions with others, which in turn is aided by actually having a life and something to say about yourself. This improves all of your relationships, even those with people you have just met. You bring more to the table and are just simply more interesting. And you need to get yourself into that sort of condition before you enter into any other serious relationships with members of the opposite sex. And intelligence helps... it gives you options. Just don't let it become a yoke as i sometimes did by getting bogged down in over-analysis.

BE the kind of burned that only a fool would leave. BE the kind of person that you, burned, can be. Only then will you be truly fulfilled and be able to have the kind of relationship that your W, or any woman, will need to be truly committed. Get out there. Spend time with friends (not your W's friends). Find new friends. Do things you find enjoyable and fulfilling. What did you do for fun/enjoyment before you and your wife met? Go back to that if it's something you gave up. Go to church. (I know, i know, i keep harping on this, but it REALLY helps... If i knew you in real life i would drag you along to mine...) Stretch yourself. Grow. Be an exciting person to be around. Before i met my wife, i was an avid outdoorsman... canoeing, kayaking, camping, hiking... i would spend a week in the wilderness with just a pack and a fishing rod. I stopped being that person to a degree after i got married, partly due to health issues but partly due to my W being kind of a "girly" girl and not all that into outdoorsy activities (though she was a stellar athlete-- collegiate basketball player and former hurdler). But, you know what, i returned to all of those activities after BD and after discovering DB-ing. And, after W and i had taken our first, tentative steps towards reconciliation, i continued to go and invited W along. And you know what, she came, and loved it. She also told a friend of ours that she loved that i did that sort of thing, that she loved seeing me when i came back from a weekend, unshaven and tan, that i looked "rugged." LOL, i prolly looked no more rugged than an unshaven attorney, which is what i am, but her perception of me is based on who i am and what i am doing. I am an interesting, somewhat mysterious, and attractive guy once again!

Another anecdote-- I grow chili peppers and dabble in making hot sauces and such. Entered a BBQ battle and hot sauce contest a couple of weeks back on a lark-- something a little outside my comfort zone... no one "invited" me and and i am not particularly outgoing, nor am i one typically to "toot my own horn", but a couple friends told me recently "hey, this stuff is pretty good", so i saw a sign while i was out and i entered. W went with me, of course, and i actually placed second. Well, "second prize in a beauty contest" (monopoly reference) surely not gonna do that much for my MR, but you wouldn't believe how much my W ate it up (pun intended.) She LOVED that i did it, that i had fun doing it, that i spent time hobnobbing and talking and laughing it up with a whole bunch of new people at this event, and that I was excited about it and into it... for me. I kid you not she has jumped my bones three times in the past week based on nothing more than me bringing up the hot sauce thing.

So.... be that person! Don't be the sad, mopey, clingy, co-dependent person that your W dumped for some loser OM. Be Burned! Be Bad! Be Mysterious (mysterious is very effective with women, i can't overemphasize this, and it goes hand in hand with "going dark" and DB-ing)! But find "you" and find a way to be "you" without depending on being married to your W or, indeed, to anyone. What does Burned want? And what does Burned find fulfilling?

A couple final thoughts as i have let this get WAY longer than i intended:

1) Have you considered trying a DB coach? I know for some folks it is on the expensive side, but it can be very, very helpful, if for no other reason than to have someone to check in with and keep you honest. If you opt for that route, i would advise you to make sure, as with a counselor, that you find one that YOU are comfortable with. That may mean having initial sessions with one or two that you decide to pass on (#2 was the magic number for me), but it is important to have that level of comfort, IMHO. At any rate is something that i and others have found helpful, particularly if, as seems to be the case with you, you are struggling with the core DB-ing concepts and their implementation.

2) Go dark with your W, please. You don't need to file for D (and in fact, you can tell her if she asks that you don't necessarily want a D right now, but you are willing to respect her decision if that's what she wants-- but don't do the dirty work for her and dont' make it easy for her, particulalry if you harbor hopes of someday reconciling) but STOP having MR talks with her, and STOP responding to her every text, call, and temperature check. Others have given you great advice here, so i wont belabor it, but... just STOP. I have said (and Sandi2 has said) repeatedly that "she will never find you more attractive than when you are walking away" and i would add "or when you are ignoring her." If you read through my threads, you will find several instances where just completely cut contact with my W, and, each time, she pursued me relentlessly. "Where are you".."What are you doing" ... "PLEASE call me..." I, like you, at times couldn't get past the seeming inconsistency between "going dark is good" and "checked out and non-responsive me was bad for the marriage and one of the root causes of our break up" but... you have GOT to get past that. The break up, in both our cases, has already happened. You are now in a new paradigm, and that new paradigm is that she will be more, not less interested in you the less responsive and the more mysterious/standoffish/dark you are. This is a corollary to detachment and it will, if you manage detachment, become much easier. But always remember it is for YOU... for YOUR well-being. To help YOU be a better, stronger, person, and NOT to manipulate her towards more interest. It may very well and probably will have that effect on her ultimately, but if you have truly mastered detachment, you will be strong and stalwart and your happiness will not be dependent on the increasingly-sized contact crumbs she will throw you. You will be self-sufficient, confident, and positioned to be an awesome companion to whomever you might ultimately end up with, as well as much, much better positioned to engage in MC should that happen.

3) As to the latter, no point in doing that right now, nor indeed having any relationship or "how are you doing" conversations. I like what your IC proposed: If she mentions wanting to have a MR talk or doing MC just tell her that "You can call me when you're committed to working on the MR, until then, Ill just be doing my thing/I've got a life to lead" (being awesome.) If she asks "how are you doing" or "did you see that sunset" or some other WW temp-checking BS, don't respond at all or, if you are FTF, keep it short, upbeat, but monosyllabic: "Fine." You two don't have kids the only thing i can think of that would demand a text response is something regarding divorce proceedings (of which there aren't any at present.)

Okay, anyway... You do you. Be the man. You can do this. By the end of this week i want you to have found two new GAL activities, and report back.

Hoosjim out.

May I ask if you've ever had a breakup when dating or from a long-term relationship? Did you ever experience a girl/woman pursuing you when you just wanted her to leave you alone?

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Detachment: am I supposed to act like we�re not married, just strangers who used to know each other? I�m buying a TV for an apartment that she will probably never visit.

Short answer is yes.

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Was it really a temp check?

It absolutely was a temp check!

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I'm fighting this feeling that it was a genuine attempt at being kind to me.

I suspect you are really fighting NGS...�.b/c she was not trying to be kind. She is wayward. Everything she does has some purpose to benefit herself. With you having NGS, your biggest problem will be controlling your need to respond to every little thing she does or says......trying to convince yourself that she's reaching out. At this stage of things, she is not going to "reach out". Waywards don't "reach out" until they lose that wayward attitude and mindset, and are filled with humility. Until then, it's just temperature checking to see how emotionally attached you are.

Have you read the WW threads? The link to the first one is at the bottom page of Sandi's Rules. Reading the threads might help you have a better understanding of the mindset of a WW.

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Why does it feel like this hurts me more than it hurts her?

It probably is hurting you more than it's hurting her. Until she feels that she's truly losing you (and her fantasy), she isn't worried or hurting over this situation. That's the purpose behind the temp checks.....to make sure you are still attached.

Your biggest battle will be with your nice guy syndrome. I hope you'll read up on the subject and see how you need to change some things in your relationships with other people. Don't worry that your friends won't like you b/c of something you say or do. You need to stop worrying that your WW will get pi$$ed at you. If she has a sense of entitlement, then stop trying to please her, b/c it causes you to walk on eggshells and make you look very unattractive. Stop trying to win her back! Seriously, stop trying to get someone who doesn't want you.

Get your mind off your WW and start focusing on the type of man you want to be. I know from what you've written that you are a people pleaser. This can cause lots of problems in a MR, b/c the H walks a tightrope trying to keep his W happy with him. His main fear is having her angry at him. The man with NGS becomes so focused on keeping his W in a good mood that it become his entire world. I think your W is your entire life. That's why you don't know where to start with GAL, b/c you never did anything apart from her. Your W has become everything, to the point you don't how to survive without her. You've lost your own identify, and you need to find it. That is why you are having such a tough time detaching. You can't find yourself apart from her.

My suggestion is to set goals and personal challenges that will help you to grow as a man. This is the time you can do whatever you like, and not have to consider someone else. As you grow and develop a new life, you will become less dependent on having a R with her. Being unavailable to her, will cause her to wonder if she's losing you. I realize that statement makes no sense to you, when she's wanting a D. However, it's how her mindset works. As long as you are handy for her beck & call, she'll not see you as a desirable, unavailable male. She'll see you as a handy "friend"(at best), but not someone she wants as a H. Before the MR can be successfully reconciled, you will need to become a man she can't have so easily. You won't be anyone's backup plan! Right?

This may not sound like marriage saving advice, but if you'll stick with us......I think you'll start to see more clearly how it works.

^^^To Sandi you listen, yes? Hmmmm.....

<Sandi! You're back!!!

>

Been reading and re-reading for an hour and still don't know what to say. I think "thank you" maybe? Or else "ouch"?

There's a lot to digest so I'll keep studying.

I'll also re-read my threads, yours, and others before I ask more questions that have already been answered.

Burned,

As much as some of those 2x4s might sting please take heed. You have some very, very wise heads advising you on this thread and they are giving you pure gold. You should feel fortunate to have such sage advice.

OK, just to make sure I understand, because I'm kind of reeling here, like, my head is spinning like in a cartoon.

1. I am going completely dark. I am not going to care if that makes her angry. I agree that it's for my own sake, too. In fact the main reason I don't want to get anything from the house is that I just don't want to go to the house. Hurts too much.

2. The day after she said she has "made her decision" and wants D, we talked about how it's now OK to see other people, since the M is ending. We agreed to stay "friends." (I can't go back in time and undo this ridiculousness, much as I wish I could)

3. All she seems to care about now is that she will have enough money to get through school, and she intends to get it from me. Yet she still contacts me to ask how I'm doing and tell me to start getting stuff out of the house.

4. She is probably back with OM, with what she probably considers my full permission. Hard to believe that it really counts as an A any more. So hard to have hope that it will end. And like Hoosjim said, he's just OM1. As indicated in point #2, he is now just her boyfriend. The OM is only "O" on paper.

5. I've given her everything she has wanted and asked for essentially nothing. On BD I scared her and publicly shamed her. I capitulated each and every time she strong-armed me into getting what she wanted.

So I'll hit myself with my own 2x4, because I know that the question I'm asking reflects my own lack of self-confidence. And I will work on that lack of self-confidence, regardless of what happens.

But the question is: aside from money, what is it, exactly, that she fears losing? Why would my walking away make me more attractive, if she has already lost all attraction and gotten the "retirement package" she was after? Are you saying that somewhere inside this vicious monster that looks like my W, there's still a little tiny piece of a bond?

I'm working through Hoosjim's threads and I see some similarities in how we think. There's a definite need for as much information as possible. Analysis paralysis, etc. Unlike me, however, he got to this forum sooner, and acted very rapidly.

So, yeah, after reading those two big posts, I've gotten myself into a state of true despair and self-blame. Could use a kind word or two, if anyone is out there.

Burned,

Hang in there. We all made mistakes at and right after BD. That is completely normal for everyone. What matters right now is doing what is right for you. I think you are right that going dark is helpful for your own peace of mind. That doesn't necessarily mean that you have to ignore her if she asks you a direct question, but giving only a short business-like response.

I think walking away makes us (I include myself here) more attractive because the neediness that we showed upon BD is repulsive. It shows that we are no longer codependent, that we have our own lives that don't revolve around the W. Of more importance, GALing and working on ourselves, and ultimately detaching, really does make our lives better and make us more independent and more emotionally stable. There is no guarantee that our Ws will come back, but doing the hard work of DB gives us the best shot at reconnecting with them, and/or puts us in a better place to get on with our own lives and be ready to embark on a new relationship.

Burned -

Are YOU a man that only a fool would leave? If so....she�s losing YOU.

If not....then how are you going to become that? Then, again, it�s YOU that she�s losing.

Either way, if you become that man, then she is a fool.

Where is your self-esteem?

Originally Posted by Amoafwl

Burned -

Are YOU a man that only a fool would leave? If so....she�s losing YOU.

If not....then how are you going to become that? Then, again, it�s YOU that she�s losing.

Either way, if you become that man, then she is a fool.

Where is your self-esteem?

Guess I left it at the house. WW probably has it. :P

Working on reading through Hoosjim's whole sitch. I'm up to 7/9/17. Crazy similarities with mine, and he survived. I'll survive, too. WW can come along for the ride if she wants. But she'll have to pay for a ticket.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Look, if you have a trim waistline, wear nice clothes, get regular haircuts, keep your nails clean and trimmed, carry an air of confidence then you are in the 10th percentile of all men. Maybe even the 5th. It is EASY to be in the top league of men. Just look around you, it is shocking how many men are walking around with huge bellies, disheveled hair, pale complexions, scruffy beards, t-shirts with holes in them, flip flops, etc. A lot of men GO TO WORK like that these days. It's unreal. You don't have to have Brad Pitt's face to be at the top of the class.

From Hoosjim's 4th thread, 7/12/17.

Some great advice here. Even though the sitch isn't that similar to mine, I found the advice very useful. Hang in there, burned! You and I both just need to grow a pair of balls and man up. We can do it.

Take your time B. Changes need time, they must be consistent. There�s no stepping back. You have time, you need patience.

Stand for yourself, move forward. Cool, calm, collected. AMOAFWL (as Amoafwl says ;-))

WW (text just now): �Hey. It�s too cold. I�m leaving some things for you on the front porch. I hope that�s OK.�

Burned: (crickets)

lol....really? Gee thanks...better response.

Leaving some things on the porch for you? Hell Naw!

Shes treating you like a homeless person shes giving a handout to. I wouldnt respond either.

Well, I had to get the jacket at some point.

Plus there was some stuff that she gave me for S, some dishes and other things she "thought I would need" but mainly didn't want. So I put those in a box and left them on the porch. No longer need them.

Didn't respond to the text, though.

Originally Posted by burned

Well, I had to get the jacket at some point.

Plus there was some stuff that she gave me for S, some dishes and other things she "thought I would need" but mainly didn't want. So I put those in a box and left them on the porch. No longer need them.

Didn't respond to the text, though.

smacking my head

Originally Posted by burned

Well, I had to get the jacket at some point.

Plus there was some stuff that she gave me for S, some dishes and other things she "thought I would need" but mainly didn't want. So I put those in a box and left them on the porch. No longer need them.

Didn't respond to the text, though.

What Im waiting to see is your LEADERSHIP quality. As I mentioned earlier, I would take stock of what I had and what I wanted and proposed to her what YOU want/need for your new place. Instead, you are REACTING to what she is doing. She says "I have things for you on the porch" and within a couple hours, you are there sorting through it. She says jump and you do it right now. I mean, I suppose it's good you didn't reply to the text....but you did so with your actions, so what difference does it make? I think you need to get to a point where you are in control of your own decisions and plans and wants and needs and so on.

As to going dark, I think it's a great TOOL. But by itself, it doesn't really do anything. The point fof going dark is to alleviate pressure on all sides. It prevents you from feeling that constant 'ping' from her and feeling the weight of every word and every interaction. It also frees her from the pressure of your mood and emotion hinging on her every word. It just gives you each the space to breathe and live your lives without dredging up your situation or the thought of your situation. BUT. And this is important. BUT. It doesn't do anything in and of itself. If you don't take the time to grow. To GAL. To become BURNED2.0.....then the going dark is just that. Going dark. It isn't a magical relationship fixer. It is just a tool to add to your toolbelt. So keep your focus on becoming the man you want to be....not just on "being dark".

OK so I am thinking of sending her a text.

"I took the coat and things from the porch. Will come back at some point to get the nightstand and bookshelf. I left some things that I no longer need that I thought you might like to have back. I'll let you know what else I need."

Too strong? Definitely not typical of my behavior in the last few months, so it might raise her hackles. I don't really care, because there are some things I do need.

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So, yeah, after reading those two big posts, I've gotten myself into a state of true despair and self-blame. Could use a kind word or two, if anyone is out there.

Hey man, hang in there. We've all been there before, and we're all here pulling for you now. The 2 x 4s are because we care... because we've been there, and because hate to see yet another person suffering as we did.

I know. It does $uck. And probably right now you feel worse than you ever have, but you need to start taking stock of the positive, of what you have and what you could have, and start moving forward. One step at a time. It's hard, and sometimes you just want to sit down, or even curl up in a little ball under your covers with the lights out, and cry. (And, fwiw, MWD sez in DB that on occasion it okay to do this to get it out... but your primary, default demeanor has got to be one of moving forward). When i got hit with the BD in my sitch, i already was at sort of in a rock-bottom scenario. My health and fitness level stunk, both my kids had special needs and were at a low point (the one profoundly so due to a very difficult case of Tourette's), my finances were a mess, my marriage was little more than a roommate arrangement (we weren't even really friends) and i had a grand total of two friends who i kept in regular contact with, only one of whom was local. And then my W started an A. With the one friend of mine who was local. Lost, in the same event, my W and my only local friend. And, despite the distance that had grown between my W and i in the MR, the shock of the affair revelation awakened every thing i had previously felt for my W love-wise. It was like i was right back 25 years prior when we had first met, or when i was standing next to her holding her hand when our first baby was born. And then, simultaneously, seeing it all go up in smoke. I was losing not just a wife, but my whole family... the happy family existence i had always hoped for my children and grandchildren. My inlaws, who i loved. All of it. I had nothing. Nothing. Or at least so i thought. So i get what you are feeling, and more. Consider how bad this would hurt if you guys had kids being hurt by this, on top of everything else!

And i get your frustration and despair at having "done the wrong thing":

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2. The day after she said she has "made her decision" and wants D, we talked about how it's now OK to see other people, since the M is ending. We agreed to stay "friends." (I can't go back in time and undo this ridiculousness, much as I wish I could)

5. I've given her everything she has wanted and asked for essentially nothing. On BD I scared her and publicly shamed her. I capitulated each and every time she strong-armed me into getting what she wanted.

Did you see that, in the first serious convo i had with her after BD (actually cant remember if i posted at the time, because i came to the forums and then left for a while, but i think i did), that i offered to "release her from her marriage vows" if she wanted, and also to "Work with the church and do/say whatever was needed to get a valid annulment if she wanted? Not to mention backing off at a (misguided) friend's suggestion when i became angry the first time she went by OM's favorite hangout while out one night with her toxic bff. I also waffled on boundaries (or just had poorly thought out boundaries to begin with), obsessed about what she was saying or doing as opposed to worrying about me, and continually let her suck me in to MR convos, and temp check me, and the like.

But i managed to get things turned around. I started working out like crazy to regain my health and keep myself occupied, found a local establishment i could use for my refuge, and reconnected with an old friend. I was blessed, in a way, that my best friend from college was married to my W's lifelong bff, and that she also had turned into a WW and that they were splitting up. We became each others' sounding board, supported each other emotionally, hung out, etc. He had not long before somewhat miraculously become a born-again Christian after having been a lifelong and devout atheist (If you'd told me to list the people that i though least likely to ever convert and become religious, he would have been at the top) and he got me hooked up with the church i now attend. The services at that church and the long and detailed theological discussions my friend and i had played a huge role in evolving my faith and revealing a number of things to me that had always been difficult to grasp, theologically. It also helped ground me, an provided a backstop... a promise of something better. And i was able to look into the face of my situation and understand that i could survive it, that i could thrive.

And you want to talk about hopeless sitches? I am not sure that you have gone into great detail about how "close" you and your W were in the years leading up to BD, whether or not you were regularly intimate, enjoyed each others' company, etc., but me and my W had pretty much nothing left in common but raising the kids, and those kids were on the cusp of leaving for college. We were no more than roommates... not even really friends..never did anything together anymore that didn't involve the kids, frequently slept apart, hadn't said "ILY" in years or even kissed/hugged each other in the AM leaving for work or in the PM on returning... hadn't been intimate in over, i think, four years, and just a handful of times in the couple of years prior to that. We. Were. Done. On top of that, all my W's friends were in the throes of marital difficulties, and her bff, the person she prolly looked up to and admired the most in the world, was also a WW, living the GGW lifestyle, and was most definitely NOT in the "hoosjim for husband" camp. And yet... somehow things worked out. But the important takeaway from my sitch is NOT that we ultimately got back together despite how hopeless it looked (I am still convinced that that was divine intervention on some level), but, rather, that despite the hopelessness of the situation i took charge of my own life, kept moving forward, and put myself in a position that i was going to survive and thrive WON wife and i finally reconciled. At the time of the final blow-up/confrontation, I was done. With her, the marriage, all of it. And i was cool with that. Our MC said she had been "Waiting for me to get to that point for over a year, now", and that she didn't think we ever had a shot to reconcile until each had had a chance to realize that the other was "done" and to experience what it was really like to completely lose the other. You need to get to that point. Not because it is likely the only way your W ever experiences "losing you" and has a chance to want you back, but because getting to that point will free you to be your own person, with or without your W.

(And, here, i would caution you about drawing too many parallels to my sitch which was, in many ways, unique-- My WW had a lifelong, very strong grounding in her Christian faith, to which she returned and which has helped be a foundation stone for her as she recovers and we reconcile. We also have children, and the idea of "losing" or alienating the children was also a terrifying though for her that, ultimately, she had to face up to. You guys obviously don't have the latter and i don't know about the former. We also obviously stayed cohabitating the entire time, and remained in MC-ing, and were actively engaged from about last July (2017) onward in trying to reconnect socially--- all of which are pretty much contra-indicated by DB-ing and may or may not have actually prolonged the limbo and timeline for us... it's really impossible to know especially since our MR had been SO badly damaged. Finally, i never widely outed my W wrt the affair-- only two people i told were my own bff and another close friend, both of whom i knew implicitly that i could trust to keep the secret, and who i knew would not hold it against my W if we reconciled-- this is obviously not the case in your sitch but, even there, who knows? That dynamic is controversial... there have been people on these boards who believed that the widest possible dissemination of that revelation was the best way to end it and force a move towards reconcilliation. I think every sitch is different, though, in general, i do believe that keeping the road home paved smoothe is probably the better route. But, whatever, point is that things can look pretty BAD, and you can look at your sitch and see all the Eff ups you have made and despair... as i did from time to time... and things can still work out. Prolly the moral of the story is the old reliable straw: You cant control anybody but YOU... so be the best YOU you can be and you will be in as good a position as you could hope to be)

At any rate, you CAN get there. Yes, it stinks right now, and there is no cure for the pain but time. You can shorten that time by taking care of yourself and GAL-ing, but it will still take time. In a lot of ways it is like suffering a death in the family. But you can get better. I daresay my own personal sitch was somewhat to significantly more "hopeless" than yours, but i did manage to pull myself up by my bootstraps and get to it. Just keep moving. We believe in ya!

The one specific piece of advice i would offer here is to find a friend you can confide in. Someone you can trust and tell anything to..,. someone who can fully know your sitch and help support you, etc. I found this invaluable.

Originally Posted by burned

OK so I am thinking of sending her a text.

"I took the coat and things from the porch. Will come back at some point to get the nightstand and bookshelf. I left some things that I no longer need that I thought you might like to have back. I'll let you know what else I need."

Too strong? Definitely not typical of my behavior in the last few months, so it might raise her hackles. I don't really care, because there are some things I do need.

Just set a date ASAP to get the rest of your stuff and just be 100% DONE with that. Don't do the slow trickle thing, that just smacks of trying to hang onto her.

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All she seems to care about now is that she will have enough money to get through school, and she intends to get it from me. Yet she still contacts me to ask how I'm doing and tell me to start getting stuff out of the house.

She's just being polite. It doesn't mean anything.

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She is probably back with OM, with what she probably considers my full permission.

I doubt that. I think she knows quite well that if she snaps her fingers you'll come running. She knows her A is eating at you. And yet, onward she goes. That should tell you how she feels about you. You're a doormat to her, something to scrape the poop off her shoes before she goes inside where she wants to be. Very sorry to say it, but you need to hear it so you will QUIT being a doormat.

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But the question is: aside from money, what is it, exactly, that she fears losing? Why would my walking away make me more attractive, if she has already lost all attraction and gotten the "retirement package" she was after? Are you saying that somewhere inside this vicious monster that looks like my W, there's still a little tiny piece of a bond?

Right now she doesn't fear losing anything from you. She doesn't want you. She doesn't like you. She may even hate you and find you repulsive. The idea isn't to make her miss you as a technique to get her back, the idea is to put her in the rearview mirror so you can find YOU. Find that independent, attractive, strong person you were back when she met you. BE THAT GUY AGAIN. Don't be her Plan B because Plan B isn't a ribbon for second place, it's the first loser. Do all of this and maybe she'll look back some day.

From the movie Swingers:

And what if I don't want to give up on
her?

ROB
You don't call.

MIKE
But you said I shouldn't call if I
wanted to give up on her.

ROB
Right.

MIKE
So I don't call either way.

ROB
Right.

MIKE
So what's the difference?

ROB
The only difference between giving up and
not giving up is if you take her back
when she wants to come back. See, you
can't do anything to make her want to
come back. You can only do things to
make her not want to come back.

MIKE
So the only difference is if I forget
about her or pretend to forget about her.

ROB
Right.

MIKE
Well that [censored].

ROB
It [censored].

MIKE
So it's almost a retroactive decision.
So I could, like, let's say, forget about
her and when she comes back make like I
just pretended to forget about her.

ROB
Right...or more likely the opposite.

MIKE
Right... Wait, what do you mean?

ROB
I mean first you'll pretend not to care,
not call - whatever, and then,
eventually, you really won't care.

MIKE
Unless she comes back first.

ROB
Ah, see, that's the thing. Somehow they
don't come back until you really don't
care anymore.

MIKE
There's the rub.

ROB
There's the rub.

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What Im waiting to see is your LEADERSHIP quality. As I mentioned earlier, I would take stock of what I had and what I wanted and proposed to her what YOU want/need for your new place. Instead, you are REACTING to what she is doing. She says "I have things for you on the porch" and within a couple hours, you are there sorting through it. She says jump and you do it right now. I mean, I suppose it's good you didn't reply to the text....but you did so with your actions, so what difference does it make? I think you need to get to a point where you are in control of your own decisions and plans and wants and needs and so on.

This is super-good advice from AMOAFWL. Women respond to this. It is a good mindset to have WON you end up reconciling as it will serve you well in whatever relationship you ultimately find yourself in. Women respond to leadership. It is a corrolary of the "confidence" dynamic, but has specific elements. You should google "male dominance in relationships" or the like, and then ignore any BDSM links you get. Some of the stuff is kind of over the top and some is in the same spirit as "pick up artist" type of stuff, but there is alot useful stuff about the philosophy to be found out there. ITs all about being confident in yourself, knowing what YOU want and then taking the steps to get that. Even something as simple as going out to eat with your significant other. You should make a plan, present the plan, not as a point of conversation,but as the plan, and then stick to it. Women love being led. And this has nothing to do with equality of the sexes or any of that garbage... it is about legitimate gender roles in male/female romantic relationships that have been proven valid and beneficial over thousands of years. Think "Alpha" male vice "Beta" male. And even if you do tend more towards "Beta", you can adjust your habits and practices to be more "alpha." Trust me, it works. It will also empower you and make you feel better about yourself.

likewise with my sitch. WW�s family thinks am the biggest SOB in the planet, and they bought into her bullying and immaturity story. WW and I have common friends, and they all know me. WW tried to narrate her �story� with one of
our close friends, and she didn�t buy it. told WW , in the end you still had an A. hah! now WW has �newfound friends�.
it�s probably lonely being WW.
also agree with the pride and ego thing. just building an R with D14 alone, she already looks exhausted and beaten by the way me and D14 saw her during D14�s IC.

Originally Posted by EZdozit

Burned,

I'm in the same boat in which everyone in my corner is now telling me they never liked or cared for WAW. Saying she was an emotional bully, vindictive, manipulative, selfish, etc.

I'm sure that I am now the biggest SOB A-hole that walked the earth in the eyes of WAW family/friends....

I don't give it two thoughts anymore...as I know the only people that really no the dynamics of my relationship are me & WAW. Unfortunately WAW is so far down the rabbit hole as it stands she won't even have an adult conversation with me and just stays in her own head and let's the perception of me that's she's created fester.

It [censored], but the reality is that I do believe her pride & ego are really the only deterrents that are standing in the way of R. She doesn't want to eat crow and look like a jerk if we were to come back together.

[quote=EZdozit]

Thanks, all. I really appreciate everyone rallying around me, because I've been struggling without even knowing it.

As of yesterday with all of Jim's 4x4s (and the backup from his posse of hitmen), I'm feeling a sort of new mindset coming on. I looked at photos of us from before and I didn't quite feel the same thing. I started thinking, hey, there's a person I used to be madly in love with. But she has been treating me like utter garbage for the last few months. Humiliated me not only to others but TO MYSELF. Used me for her own purposes and forcefully took most of what was left of my already-lacking self-respect.

BECAUSE I LET HER. And that's the part I have control over.

Wish I had time to address all of the details and questions you've asked. But what purpose would that serve? It would push me deeper into my own head, thereby making it even harder to GAL. I would say that our marriage was pretty good until BD. I know SHE didn't feel as good as I did, but that was an internal struggle for her that I failed to acknowledge. I was severely depressed (chronic mental health issue) and had "checked out" of the MR because I felt so dead inside -- she is probably right when she said we were "emotionally divorced" for a couple of years before BD (so more than a year before A began). We spent time together, we enjoyed each other's company. When things were good, they were good. We were still intimate on a regular basis, though not as much as she wanted. When you're that depressed, and obese because of it, you don't have the energy or the confidence to feel good about someone seeing you naked. We continued to have pretty excellent relations even WHILE she was in her A. And also afterwards, which I now know wasn't the best way to handle it. Thought I could erase him, but older and wiser now.

So yes, there were problems in our MR, but my opinion is that they weren't quite as bad as she made them out to be after BD. I do recall her suggesting MC BEFORE the A started (hindsight), and my response was, "Bah, MC is for people who are on their way to divorce." Yikes. I also remember that shortly before that, when she started seeing her IC, I said something like, "I hope she doesn't tell you to divorce me." That alone should tell you how insecure I was. But the point, as I've figured out from talking about this a LOT with my parents, I'd estimate that about 40% of this nonsense is a result of WW's need to differentiate, individuate, etc. We were BOTH co-dependent (so, 4x-dependent?) and we were BOTH insecure.

Anyway, I could go on and on. Doesn't change what I need to do.

1. GAL. Tonight I'm having dinner with friends at my very favorite pub. Fish and chips! WW doesn't like seafood. And I don't have to care. This is in lieu of going to a lecture alone. Baby steps, people.
2. Detachment. See above. Having spent enough time thinking and realizing that her actions CLEARLY indicate that she is in a hurry to get me out of her life, it's getting easier to look at her and think, ick. I miss the "her" that ceased to exist a while ago. OTOH I am dreading the nightmare of dividing possessions, possible D, the pain of rejection, the thought that someone who once loved me could turn so cold. The fear of coldness, which is so much worse than the anger because it is a bad portent of things to come.
3. Dropping the pursuit even more than before. Almost total darkness. (Did you know that after we met, SHE pursued ME for TWO YEARS until I came around? Yep.)
4. Channeling the old alpha me. I did send her the text saying, "I took the coat and sweaters from the porch. I�ll come back at some point to get the nightstand and bookshelf. I also left a box of things that I no longer want. And I�m putting together a list of other stuff I will need." Her response: "Ok."

It's still SO incredibly hard to peel myself away from the fear of NOT KNOWING what will happen next.

I KNOW it doesn't matter and I KNOW it shouldn't change what I do. But I'm just a little bundle of fear these days. Doing my best to get out of it, as you can see.

I'm putting my faith in Jim and Sandi's paradoxical advice that ignoring her might make her pay attention. But I am STARTING to feel better ignoring her. First, it's dead silence from her anyway unless SHE needs something. So it's less painful now. And second, it kinda feels good to protect myself. Maybe it's teeny, tiny way to stand up for myself.

But I'm starting to get a first-person view of what AnotherStander keeps saying about how the LBS usually doesn't want WS back after all of the pain and growth. I'll cross that bridge if it ever gets built.

Jim, just to respond to one specific thing you mentioned.

You saw your sitch as hopeless because of what preceded it.

I see mine as hopeless because of the 6 months of damage I did post-BD. In fact, during the first month after BD, I was alert, alive, and very alpha. It was when she left for a weeklong trip to see her sister (who personifies waywardness) that I began begging, pleading, demanding, etc. All downhill from there until S a month later.

It's no surprise she finds me abhorrent. Fixing what was broken BEFORE was easy in comparison.

I know the standard answer will be, forget what she thinks, you do you. And I will, regardless. Just digging for some hope, aside from the hope of being a better me (which does become more appealing day by day).

Please advise.

And Sandi, I should also respond to some of the things you said, along with acknowledging and thanking you for the guidance. I should feel flattered that I have the Olympian Demigods looking at me from above...but somehow I also think that's not a great sign.

So, yeah, never had a long-term relationship before this. Never been dumped. Never had to cope with anything even remotely like this. The worst grief I experienced before this was my dog dying.

WW and I met when she had just started college. I was living at home finishing college. Neither of us ever had a long-term relationship before this. Neither of us had ever lived on our own. I was a roommate in an apartment for a year before we got married. We got married a couple months after she graduated from college. So, there was a LOT of individuating that needed to happen and never did.

As for NGS, I read the book a month or two ago. I actually had to set it aside because it was painful to have that stuff shoved in my face. The feeling of, "Wow, my entire life has been one mistake after the next" as it pertains to NGS. Even my mother, a Calvinist who forfeited a powerful career to become a SAHM during an era when that was considered shameful, thinks I'm too nice. Yikes.

So I will be re-reading NMMNG soon. Ironically, I'm sort of too busy these days to stay at home reading books.

Originally Posted by burned

GAL. Tonight I'm having dinner with friends at my very favorite pub. Fish and chips! WW doesn't like seafood. And I don't have to care.

Good!

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Detachment. See above. Having spent enough time thinking and realizing that her actions CLEARLY indicate that she is in a hurry to get me out of her life, it's getting easier to look at her and think, ick. I miss the "her" that ceased to exist a while ago. OTOH I am dreading the nightmare of dividing possessions, possible D, the pain of rejection, the thought that someone who once loved me could turn so cold. The fear of coldness, which is so much worse than the anger because it is a bad portent of things to come.

Yes you miss the "old her", not the person she is now. As for dividing possessions and D, take it from someone who has already been through it, it sounds a lot worse than it is. Pain of rejection, well you've already been through the worst of that, it only gets better from here as you come to realize she's not the only woman in this world and plenty of others are more than happy to accept you into their lives. Fear of coldness, once you detach you won't care. You really won't, you'll see it for what it is- HER problem, not yours.

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Dropping the pursuit even more than before.

There's no dropping it "more than before", because that implies you were doing it before and still will, just not as much. DROP IT COMPLETELY.

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Almost total darkness.

What is with all this halfway stuff!?! Commit!

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Channeling the old alpha me. I did send her the text saying, "I took the coat and sweaters from the porch. I�ll come back at some point to get the nightstand and bookshelf. I also left a box of things that I no longer want. And I�m putting together a list of other stuff I will need."

Do you think this is alpha? Think of the most alpha image you can. For me it would have to be Achilles in the movie Troy (played by Brad Pitt). Achilles who overslept for a battle and had to be awakened by a servant boy while he was in bed with two naked women, and dragged himself out and took down another kingdom's mightiest warrior with one sword slash. WWAD (What Would Achilles Do)? Would he go groveling over to his wife's porch for his box of stuff and then send her a text about it? I'm not going to tell you what to do or what Achilles would do, what I want is for you to start thinking in those terms. What would the most badass alpha you can envision do in these situations. Then do that.

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It's still SO incredibly hard to peel myself away from the fear of NOT KNOWING what will happen next.

What is your worst fear? That she will never want you back and you will never recon? That was my worst fear for a long time. And it happened, we got D'd and there has been no recon opportunity. I rebuilt myself. Got in the best shape of my life, dressed better, read self-help books, got out and GAL'd, got closer with my kids, reestablished old hobbies and picked up new ones, ceased caring about what my ex was doing or who with or why. Eventually started dating and got serious 3 years ago with a beautiful young lady with tatt's, crazy hair colors and a zest for life like my ex never had. We have more shared interests than I ever had with my ex, to the point that I wonder why I ever ended up with her in the first place. So my biggest fear turned out to be a new, amazing chapter in my life instead. But who knows, there are a lot of guys here who reconciled after thinking their M was done and you might as well. But most of them didn't recon until after they were pretty much done with their W's BS. And that's where you need to get yourself to- you need to get FED UP and DONE with her.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

you need to get FED UP and DONE with her.

This is a good way to describe the feeling I'm starting to feel.

And then here's where I get stuck. I can be completely detached, not give a flying frack about what she's doing or who she's with. But then I still have to pay the bills, or file for D. She won't do it. I have handed her the keys to the cake factory. She has nothing to lose by D except that she can't M anyone else until.

So what would Achilles do about his legal situation? I mean I suspect he would say, "Whatever, it's all paper, where's my wine and my women!"

Another thing he might do is let himself into the house that he owns just as much as his WW, and take whatever the frack he feels like taking. She can complain later.

Originally Posted by burned

Another thing he might do is let himself into the house that he owns just as much as his WW, and take whatever the frack he feels like taking. She can complain later.

YESSSSSSS!

Yeah! Except that she'll be home by the time I'm done with work.

I'm really, really struggling with the nuts and bolts here. I have to DO something, right? Or do I just go dark and let things hang?

Specifically related to what Hoosjim said maybe yesterday about how I have to change several things about how I interact with her, pronto. I could use some specific guidance there...

She will be at school all weekend. Probably staying at a hotel. Probably with OM unless there's a snowball's chance that she really isn't seeing him anymore.

Theoretically we could be NC for months and she could do whatever she wants in the meantime. NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT IT. Right? Why WOULD she ever "reach out" if she has everything she wants?

Maybe Neffer can say something optimistic...

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You saw your sitch as hopeless because of what preceded it.

I see mine as hopeless because of the 6 months of damage I did post-BD.

Yes and no. If you go back and re-read my last post (or go back to my first coupla threads through about June/July of 2017), you will see that, not only was i dealt a pretty bad hand (some of which, yes, i dealt myself) with what came before BD, but also that i, in several respects, made a royal mess of things after BD. I, like you, somewhat enabled her further waywardness. Heck, i practically gave her permission at one point! Not to mention my flimsy boundary-setting, getting roaring drunk and spilling my guts and confronting her bff... on and on and on. I was far far far FAR from the decisive, alpha-hoosjim in my interactions with her the first couple of months. And, yeah, you will see (and i even indicated as much in my threads at points) that my mistakes quite arguably made the situation worse, enabled the affair, and lengthened the timeline of both my recovery and the MR's reconcilliation. You dont have a corner on the market of DB-botching, my friend!

Point is we learn from our mistakes. Life is a journey. Even though i made those mistakes, things still turned out okay for me and, as an added bonus, for my marriage. Things are never as hopeless as they seem. I don't know what the future holds for your relationship with your W... nor do you. There's only one guy that knows that. What i do know is that you have some freedom now to work on you, burned, and turn your life into something special... to make yourself a man that only a fool would leave.

Your W has given you the gift of time. Use it.

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Another thing he might do is let himself into the house that he owns just as much as his WW, and take whatever the frack he feels like taking. She can complain later.

^^^^This. Definitely.

AnotherStander:

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Eventually started dating and got serious 3 years ago with a beautiful young lady with tatt's, crazy hair colors and a zest for life

Briefly wondered about this a couple of times, because that opportunity was there for me as well. Hmmmm.... Oh, what?

Anyway, I'm better off now, though. Just be aware, burned, when you start turning yourself around, there will be other opportunities out there. I've seen it posted on these forums frequently that often by the time the LBS gets himself turned around, in the cases where the Wayward spouse tries to "come back", the LBS no longer wants anything to do with the wayward spouse, and the LBS then becomes the "walk-away."

Jim, thanks. I JUST edited my last post right before you posted. Could use some VERY specific ideas about how you said to change my approach wrt WW. I think it was something you said yesterday in the big big post.

Edit: haven't had time to get past July 2017 in your threads but I'm looking forward to it, possibly tomorrow.

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Could use some VERY specific ideas about how you said to change my approach wrt WW. I think it was something you said yesterday in the big big post.

There's really nothing i can add that others haven't already said here in that regard... and they are all giving you good advice. I mean, i could try to micromanage my post and run down the "50 top situations you're likely to find yourself in with WW and how to respond" but, really, you need to find your own way. It is largely about attitude: Confidence and Decisiveness. Google dominant male in marital relationships (not the BDSM stuff, but the alpha male stuff, it is pure gold.) Standing up for yourself. Not tolerating and disrespect. Being firm, but calm and in control at all times (The alpha male doesn't shout... he doesn't have to. Using, for instance, profanity, but doing so only sparingly and in a completely level and calm tone of voice can be very powerful). Being planful and following through with your plans. Being honorable and strong and kind.

None of this stuff is meant to be anything you do to "front" or fake it... although there is some truth to the "fake it till you make it" sentiment for stuff that doesn't come naturally to your personality type... it's a lifestyle choice, and a habit you can choose to form.

It's also about having a LIFE (thus, the GAL stuff) and being, at the same time, somewhat mysterious and unobtainable (the pursuit and distance dynamic and the "going dark" paradigm.

Also, YOU set the tone for your interactions and YOU decide when to interact with her (ideally, for the time being, only when absolutely necessary.)

Talk LESS, do MORE. I am a lawyer and also a verbal person by nature, so i have a tendency to want to talk things to death... it's a proclivity i have managed to dial back with great effect in many areas of my life--God gave us one mouth and two ears for a reason. At any rate, be a man of ACTION rather than WORDS. If you are going to do something, just do it... no need in many cases to say "I am going to do this" before hand.

Just think about every strong masculine figure you've ever seen in a movie-- John Wayne is a good archetype. That type of man is in dwindling supply in our society these days, and it's a shame (and i think most women would agree, even if some won't say it out loud.)

Your idea of going by YOUR house when she's not there and retrieving what you need (without advance warning or leaving a note afterwards) is perfect.

OK. Thank you. Will review my threads and take notes.

WRT "permission," to add some color to my sitch. I just got a very bad insight:

7/7/18 (our anniversary): WW sends a furious text and says "f you" for the first and maybe only time. I respond something along the lines of, "OK, then, I guess I have to let you go" but in a very clingy/dependent way. She later admits that she contacted OM that day, and I tracked her to his hotel the next day.

8/31/18: WW says she wants D (during MC session). Lots of texts that night, one of which was me saying, "Well I guess we have to think about dating other people. I'd like to date you if possible." WW says, "What if that's not possible?"

I just realized what she meant.

This entire time she's been leaving me FOR HIM. Of course she denied it. But I fell for all the lies.

Now I really AM fed up.

Originally Posted by Hoosjim

He has just so completely let his WW (apparently) run completely wild while remaining full committed to her and available to her pretty much whenever she wants that I don't know if he will ever "get her back."

7/17/17. What ended up happening with those two? He sounds like me.

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7/17/17. What ended up happening with those two? He sounds like me.

Their divorce was finalized last month. She is living in FL with her AP, a mutual friend of both of ours (fraternity brother from college) and MY best friends former "best friend". She has primary custody of the children and they are still, technically, business partners (which he tells me he has little to no choice in because the company is basically just the two of them and if they dissolve it they have no livelihood.

You think you were bad at DB-ing... Hah! You got nothing on him.

I love him like a brother, and he was there for me when i literally had NO other friends... and we leaned on each other and he helped me get back on my feet and to rediscover and strengthen my faith but, wow... his WW completely ran roughshod over him.

His sitch and my sitch had a lot of similarities, not the least of which was that our respective wives had been best friends since long before we had met them. Both situations grounded in a degree of "checking out" and neglect by the husbands, in a situation where the respective wives were both somewhat "high sex drive" women.

There were differences, too... Not to judge, but his W did not come from nearly as grounded and "non-wayward" background as did my W. My W was always the "Good girl" in her family, the responsible "oldest child", the one who was always expected to be good and do the right thing. Very devout christian. His W, by contrast, came from a broken home, both mothers (birth and step) with some degree of substance abuse, was molested by one of her step brothers, and had had not one but two previous affairs while married to my friend.

At any rate, my friend had become "born again" in the early stages of what he thought was reconciliation with his W after her own BD. He took it very seriously and, i mean, took "turn the other cheek" to an extreme. Thought he had no right to make any claims on his W, said she needed to "Go find herself" even if that included other relationships, even sex... that he knew he could "take her back no matter what". she constantly told him she had no more feelings for him and couldnt see herself having such feelings. Engaged in Loooooong relationship talks with her, about which she would subsequently mock him on FB. He let her remain in the house as an "in-house separation", the whole thing very structured according to her rules. The business at that point was his family's (this before his dad retired) but he didn't say anything to them and let her remain embedded as a principle.) Ultimately when they split he let her have whatever she wanted. Didn't say a peep about the adultery (which he could absolutely prove) even though that is a bar to spousal support in our state. Wouldn't hear a bad word about her: "My loyalty is to 1) God, 2) My W, 3) My kids, in that order, so did no good to tell him anything or suggest he needed to earn her "respect." Pretty sure she made a pass at me and i told him so but he was like "Im sure you were misinterpreting." Found out he was NOT keeping our convos about my situation strictly confidential, which meant things were getting back to my W through his W... and it was clear she was pumping him for info and lying back to him, so he was constantly telling me "there's no way your W is having an affair with OM" and "even if she were, you need to be more loving and less controlling... she needs to find herself." Etc Etc. Even when he found out about the affair with our mutual friend (which was either affair number 3 or number 4, depending on WON you consider his W's earlier dalliance with our mutual friend the previous fall to be the same affair) he was like "no, i still love her, and i still want to try to patch things up with ___________ (our mutual friend) and i think things are all going to turn out all right. That weekend, one of our other friends who was in town for our reunion, and who himself had been the victim of a cheating w, got drunk and went completely off on him, calling him a <vulgar term for part of the female anatomy>, saying he "disgusted" him, etc. Wouldn't let up, so my friend called his W... to come pick him up and take him home an hour away. She came and was confronted by our angry drunk friend. It was very ugly. And sad. Several friendships were ended or severely damaged that weekend. Even after that for a short while he continued to defend her. It was only when she finally decided the time was right for them to physiclaly separate and the divorce proceedings started that he started waking up and realizing how he had been played. But by then it was too late... and at any rate he had seen what she was really like and wanted nothing further to do with her.

In other words, he demanded and expected NO degree of respect, accountability, or cooperation from her. At any point. Set no boundaries to protect himself. Fully cooperated with her when she wanted to present a "united front" to their three kids that this was a "mutual decision" although he never cheated and definitely wanted to reconcile. Left it "All in God's hands"... which is fine but... ya gotta realize (and this is something that my recent faith journey reinforced with me) that quite often there is something or several somethings that God expects YOU to do.

Postscript, somewhat interesting, is that he is now together with our mutual friend's now-ex-wife. It was a trade up for both of them, lol.

Of course I will say something optimistic: live your life. Set you free. You deserve better B.
You have the tools to grow into amoafwl. If your W doesn�t see that, well...it�s her loss.

So, expect nothing, stop mind reading, detach and go GAL.

Use the tools B!

(((Hugs)))

One thought i would add to the above is that he did, to his credit, manage to "detach". Boy, did he detach. But IMHO to an extreme degree that sacrificed his self-respect and any hope he had of regaining the respect of his W.

Now, he is happy and content, or at least so he says, so... I guess things worked out for him. But he very, very definitively was of the stance through most of his ordeal that he wanted to reconcile with his W, and he played it, iMHO, absolutely the wrong way given that and it might have cost him. And maybe it was the better outcome... his W had proven to be untrustworthy twice (three times?) before. I mean, how many times do you let a dog bite you before you put it down?

And i don't think his W is, or at least was, at heart, like the wicked witch of the west or anything... We used to have a lot of fun all four of us hanging out and she was a bright, witty, outgoing, and fun person to be around. But she obviously went very, very wayward... and my friend did not want to hear any of the wisdom i brought back from these boards about WWs and how to deal with them.

I'm going to add this because I think it is very important and instructive for your purposes and at this stage of your journey:

IMO there are two important lessons to be learned from my friend's sitch, and the both validate the DB philosophy and the advice you will read on these forums:

1) Appeasing a WW is a practically gauranteed route to NOT reconciling with your spouse. Everything you read here, particularly from Sandi and artista, about "pursuit and distance" and about the rebelliousness of the WW and the importance of respect for the husband by the wife in that equation is absolutely spot on.

2) GAL is quite probably the most important element of DBing. Despite my friend's mishandling of his interactions with his WW, he did, to his credit, GAL like crazy. You wouldn't even recognize the pre and post DB dudes if you stood rm next to each other. Dude found religion, and for real., Not just lip service. It shows in everything he does and how he interacts with everyone. He was a pretty unempathetic person previously, now he is intensely interested in all around him, very compassionate and giving of his time. Couldn't ask for a better friend whereas previously somewhat cold and self centered unless you knew him well. Donates alot of time now to charitable causes. Sold his car got a motorcycle and several tattoos. Took 2 months off work last year to follow Tom Petty around on tour. Left the city and moved to a small town. And found joy. Dude is just completely, totally, at peace. Did he suffer pain? Of course, and he readily admits that his sitch, especially with three young children,bis difficult at times, but he is at peace... And he maintained throughout the course of his ordeal that he was detached enough to know he would be okay with or without his wife, even as his preferred outcome was reconciliation. And he was okay.

So, you coul rightly say that, overall, the DB philosophy was a big success for him
.. in that he is happy and fulfilled, now, in his new life, and in fact has a much better life than ever before.

He just didn't manage to reconcile his marriage.

Jim, thanks. I can see that your friend's sitch had a lot less going for it than mine, if it's possible to believe.

I'm curious what you mean about how your friend detached in a way that cost him his self-respect and his W's respect. I'm right at that point now and I want to do the best I can. Will I maybe be able to turn it around? Not sure. Is there a bad way to detach? And would it include things like what I did today, when I passively-aggressively left a box of stuff on the porch that she had at one time caringly packed for me as I showed myself the door?

More background. My W is the oldest daughter out of 7 siblings, working class Catholic family, not much money growing up. A major contributor to this saga, I think, has been her need to "find herself" and "figure out what I want, not what other people want from me" as she was essentially the "2nd mother" helping to raise her 4 younger siblings. Unlike your W, my WW isn't overtly religious but was raised Catholic, confirmed, etc. So she had a traditional religious upbringing but with that sort of secular Northeastern flavor.

I think if you could imagine your W as the WW and your friend as the LBH, you'd get a sense of my sitch. Maybe I'm being too hard on myself. But this last week, as I've reevaluated just about everything that has happened (and believe me, there are a lot of eye-openers), I'm realizing just how much damage I've done. Non-stop. For 6 months.

I did just about everything your friend did until just very recently. The "take her back no matter what," the turning the other cheek, "she needs to find herself," etc. That's me. Sure, my W didn't react quite the way his W did with all the public humiliation, but I'd be surprised if it isn't how she feels. I need 2 hands to count the number of times I made weak boundary threats and then didn't follow through. Several times I said "Hey we can all be friends" or "I forgive you no matter what" or "You're what matters, not your actions" blah blah blah. I even remember her asking me once, around the time she wanted S, "Why would you want to be with someone who is so ambivalent?" Like, directly challenging me. My response? "Because it's YOU." NGS. Until about a month ago I wouldn't tolerate anyone telling me that R wasn't the #1 goal and that my W was "trying her best." Things are a bit different now.

I'm seeing her now in a completely different light, a much darker light. I'll accept responsibility for debasing myself. But I'm getting a LOT better at detaching, and FAST, now that I see the evil. It's probably too late for any kind of turnaround (OK, maybe it's never too late), but somehow that doesn't bother me as much. At least not today. Who knows what tomorrow will bring.

I'm giving up hope that anything I do will change anything in W's mind. She's just so cold and distant now. Maybe because she's busy with school. Maybe because the A picked back up, if it did. Doesn't matter. I'm actually starting to feel really good about how my changes will affect ME. I do feel I've regained some self-respect in the past week. It's unfortunate that I might not be able to use it to my advantage in terms of R. But it suits me just fine.

Dinner with close friends tonight. They were "our" friends but for now they are "my" friends and they've been telling me for months that I should stand up for myself because I'm really a decent guy and I don't deserve to be treated so badly. Tonight they said I look good because I look happier. That felt good to hear.

/ramble

Originally Posted by hoosjim

very important and instructive for your purposes and at this stage of your journey ... he just didn't manage to reconcile his marriage.

Glad I saw that while in a reasonably peaceful state of mind. I think I understand the message.

Burned, i will have more for you tomorrow, but for now i want to leave you with this: You still are way, way, way too concerned with "winning back your wife." I can tell because of the questions you ask, which are intently focused on what other people have done vis a vis their wives and what impact it had and how it hurt their chances of reconciliation. Not that i think it is wrong to hope on some level that that eventually comes about but... because you are SO concerned with doing so, your chances are getting slimmer and slimmer. Only when you are able to "let her go", so to speak, will yo u be truly detached enough to give yourself and any future relationship with her it's best chance. And, yes, by then, ironically, you might not even want it any more. It is a bit of a paradox, but it is a crucial one, and learning to navigate it can be the key to successful DB-ing.

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I'm curious what you mean about how your friend detached in a way that cost him his self-respect and his W's respect. I'm right at that point now and I want to do the best I can. Will I maybe be able to turn it around? Not sure. Is there a bad way to detach? And would it include things like what I did today, when I passively-aggressively left a box of stuff on the porch that she had at one time caringly packed for me as I showed myself the door?

In some ways that is perhaps too harsh on him. Subjectively, yes, i might be inclined to say that about his "self-respect"... i mean i know it was (is?) the prevailing view amongst our circle of friends. But... the dude did find happiness, and did create a life for himself that brings him joy and which he is proud of. He certainly improved his life by any objective standards. So who am or who is anyone to judge that? I do think that his interactions with his now ex-W only increased her disdain and disrespect for him, but, that was his call. Bad way to detach? Idk. Like i said, it sure as heck "worked" for him, at least in terms of his long term happiness. I can tell you his philosophy was very grounded in the viewpoint that "you can only control yourself." I don't know how many times he told me "there are only two things i can control: what i do and how i react to what others do. I can't control what she does. She needs to come back to me of her own free will. I will not do anything to manipulate her in that direction." Adhering to that philosophy, as he saw it, meant eschewing some of the things in the DB-ing books as being "not genuine" or "manipulative." IMO, what he failed to see was that some of those steps and actions, while potentially having a secondary effect of drawing one's WAS closer to you, could also be critical components of improving one's own self-esteem and confidence and, as such, not at all "manipulative" (Unless of course done with manipulation specifically as the goal.) At any rate, within his own philosophy that he adhered to, he did not feel any loss of self-esteem or the like, and his confidence remained, particularly in his faith. It's just a different way of looking things, i suppose, and it worked for him. It just wasn't going to draw his now ex-W back to him. But, perhaps, that is what God is intended and so that's what God spoke to him and why God gave him the incredible patience and zen-like detachment that he did. Who knows. At any rate, I would prolly rephrase what i wrote to say "... to an extreme degree that sacrificed any hope he had of regaining the respect of his W" Because, objectively, i think his "self" respect is probably just fine. It's just that subjectively, and perhaps even objectively, i believe that he could have altered his stance/approach to her, insisting on an appropriate degree of respect for him (and for their children, truth be known) without being manipulative or controlling. He just didn't see it that way.

WRT your episode with the box of stuff, others (particularly AS) have addressed this, and i agree fully with everything they say. You simply need to take control of your own life (and, by extension, your sitch) and act decisively. "Caringly packed" to me indicates she still has you on the hook. She has moved on with her life for now. Time for you to take care of yours.

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More background. My W is the oldest daughter out of 7 siblings, working class Catholic family, not much money growing up. A major contributor to this saga, I think, has been her need to "find herself" and "figure out what I want, not what other people want from me" as she was essentially the "2nd mother" helping to raise her 4 younger siblings. Unlike your W, my WW isn't overtly religious but was raised Catholic, confirmed, etc. So she had a traditional religious upbringing but with that sort of secular Northeastern flavor.

Dont think this necessarily "changes anything", but it is interesting to note that alot of WW's seem to share this background: Oldest or at least most responsible older child, often the one responsible for helping to raise, set an example for, or keep the others in line, often seen as the "good child", religious upbringing to a certain extent. These are all things in their pasts that WW's when they go wayward are rebelling against, amongst other things. Sandi and my W both fit this profile. Sandi has written about this quite alot, of course, and if you have not read her WW threads (which start at the bottom of her 35 rules string, you need to. She also discusses these phenomena, as well as others common to the WW, all very helpfully, in my strings... but obviously the info is much more spread out, there.

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I did just about everything your friend did until just very recently. The "take her back no matter what," the turning the other cheek, "she needs to find herself," etc. That's me. Sure, my W didn't react quite the way his W did with all the public humiliation, but I'd be surprised if it isn't how she feels. I need 2 hands to count the number of times I made weak boundary threats and then didn't follow through. Several times I said "Hey we can all be friends" or "I forgive you no matter what" or "You're what matters, not your actions" blah blah blah. I even remember her asking me once, around the time she wanted S, "Why would you want to be with someone who is so ambivalent?" Like, directly challenging me. My response? "Because it's YOU." NGS. Until about a month ago I wouldn't tolerate anyone telling me that R wasn't the #1 goal and that my W was "trying her best." Things are a bit different now.

This is good! Your self-awareness on this kind of stuff is improving! Now, what are you going to do about it?

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I'm seeing her now in a completely different light, a much darker light. I'll accept responsibility for debasing myself. But I'm getting a LOT better at detaching, and FAST, now that I see the evil. It's probably too late for any kind of turnaround (OK, maybe it's never too late), but somehow that doesn't bother me as much. At least not today. Who knows what tomorrow will bring.

Be careful about the good/evil thing because it is not entirely apt WRT the WW. I remember saying once on my thread something to the effect of i felt like Luke Skywalker because i could "Still see the "good" in my WW. Sandi made a very helpful and insightful response, something to the effect of it was not a question of her being "good" or "evil" but, rather, wayward, which is born from loss of respect, rebelliousness, and selfishness which, yes, may be at odds with the person or personality of the W before she became wayward. I think it would really help you to read and understand Sandi's "profiles" of the WW if you have not already done so. They don't think like normal, rational people.

Originally Posted by hoosjim

Be careful about the good/evil thing because it is not entirely apt WRT the WW. I remember saying once on my thread something to the effect of i felt like Luke Skywalker because i could "Still see the "good" in my WW. Sandi made a very helpful and insightful response, something to the effect of it was not a question of her being "good" or "evil" but, rather, wayward, which is born from loss of respect, rebelliousness, and selfishness which, yes, may be at odds with the person or personality of the W before she became wayward. I think it would really help you to read and understand Sandi's "profiles" of the WW if you have not already done so. They don't think like normal, rational people.

While I agree with this in general, I think what burned meant is what most of us have dealt with in regard to a WW. In my sitch I had a very moral, upstanding, modest W throw all that to the wind in her EA. She was suddenly, willing to cast aside her religious beliefs, definitely her modesty, and engage in very immoral behavior. I remember pointing out to her how she didn't tolerate TV or movies that used foul language, but was allowing the potential OM#2 so use all kinds of bad words in exchanging messages with her. It was very puzzling.

Even sandi points out how the WW is willing to shuck her morals in the name of her A conquests. It is puzzling. Especially when she was engaging in activity that she would have condemned if she had witnessed others engaging in it just weeks before.

burned, HJ is right though. None of that matters. Trust me, from personal experience, pointing out that her behavior does match-up with her pre-wayward morality will get you no where except more frustrated. Logic doesn't work. As HJ said "They don't think like normal, rational people." In fact, my WW would still talk about her morals, but was living a life contrary to them!

Thanks. Busy stressful day but I wanted to respond to this quickly.

AS and Amoafwl have been jackhammering me with the "move on with your life" thing and I'm making slow progress there.

It's taking all of my strength to just STOP thinking about how any of this will affect her. I'm just so stuck on how DONE she is (she NEVER took off her rings, and that was a MAJOR symbolic gesture, as well as removing my last name from her Instagram username). Sounds like, at this point, DB is just "rebuild your darn life."

Have gotten to mid-August in your threads, and I've gotten through the first couple of Sandi's threads (had read them in the past but they never sank in because I didn't approach my sitch as 100% WW).

Also struggling daily with the decision on whether to D. I mean, really, she's just done. I'm OK with letting it just rest. But I'm starting to lose the respect of everyone else in my life for not doing it. As of yesterday I'm getting a little bit better at saying, "Thanks, I appreciate your concern and your input, but I'd rather not talk about that right now."

Gotta run. More later. Thanks again!

Jim, i hadnt heard about WW's having religous backgrounds, oldest child, and being the role model in common. To say my W grew up in the church is an understatement and she is the eldest child as well. She wasnt a role model child growing up either. She definitely rebeled during her teen and college years. There was some lying and things that went on in her parents M before their D. From what she told me when we first started dating, her father kind of went missing some nights as well(she denies it now).

I guess to follow up on the "done" thing, I know it doesn't matter and I can't change it. Just expressing my usual regrets about how I could have done better if I had gotten to DB sooner. I think I had a window of opportunity in May and I completely blew it. She then realized that OM was a better option. Then came S.

MC was done in the name of "coming to a decision" about whether to stay in the MR. Mostly it was a delay tactic. The decision was made in her heart long before. But the feeling of finality that came on that day, along with all the talking we had been doing about how hard of a decision it is to make, "I love you but I can't be with you if I'm not safe," and just the way she said, in essence, "I've carefully thought it over and this is what I am choosing to do with my life" really rattled me. I was in shock at first, then denial for self-protection.

Now it's just pain. Her actions: taking off the rings, deleting me from the house, putting the furniture she always hated out on the front porch, etc. Completely consistent with absolute certainty. Words, not so much. But we know those are useless. Even last weekend she said, "This is so hard, I've never had to go through something like this before, I'm trying to take it one day at a time."

I'd say she is, or IT FEELS LIKE she is, the kind of person that MWD, in DR, describes as "only a miracle could change her mind."

Not to say that any of it matters in terms of what I need to do. Just venting some extremely powerful feelings of grief. I had kept up a hopeful delusion for MONTHS that something would improve. It never did. I've been fighting a heroic battle. At least now I'm fighting for myself, mostly. But the regrets, the regrets...

As to the "evil" comment. Having taken some time to re-evaluate things in the context of a selfish WW, rather than a loving W who made a bad decision...and based on her attitude toward money (which I have and she doesn't) and how ANGRY she got when I said to her, "You just see me as your bank account," I think that's what it all came down to in the end. She kept me around THE ENTIRE TIME, not just after BD but DURING the A (which may also be ongoing), because of her attitude of, "I worked to put you through grad school, so now you're gonna pay for me." Saying "Yeah but at the time I got to sleep with you, and we were committed to building a future together" won't cut it.

So now I'm making plans for how she's going to fleece me in the D. I live in a no-fault state so I can't duck spousal support by filing due to A. Bummer. Next time, pre-nup.

Sad that WW has stolen from me my belief that the world is a reasonable and relatively kind place. In 10 years if I get turned down for M by someone else because I need a pre-nup, it's still WW's fault. Her selfishness will reverberate for years to come...

Maybe all of this is part of the detachment process. But I'm having trouble thinking to myself "I love her" these days.

F these WSs, I hate that any of us have to go through this.

Last post was maudlin but I think it's stuff I need to get off my chest, if only to show my progress on this awful journey. A month ago my mindset was that I would drown without her. At least now I can say, "Hey, she's not such a spectacular person all the time."

There are even moments, like last night, when I can almost believe myself in saying, "I might actually be better off without her."

And last month, the anger and jealousy, thinking that she will have a better life without me, was enough to make me doubt my sanity. Steve called me out on that. But lately it has been replaced with some sadness that, alongside the fact that she could have had a better life with me, she may not find happiness where she's looking for it.

I've learned that my reaction to her sadness is to try to protect her. This insistence on trying to "keep her" is partly driven by a desire for her to have what is best. So I am what is best? Maybe in my mind, but certainly not in hers. In her mind I'm a pitiful, weak, repulsive person, and I'm sure she's relieved to be able to escape.

I hear over and over about WWs finally at some point realizing that what they left was better than what they found. I doubt that will be the case in my sitch. I know I'll be fine either way. But it's not really what I wanted.

So all I can do is move on...

Scheduled a consult with the D lawyer for tomorrow at 2.

Originally Posted by hoosjim

AnotherStander:

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Eventually started dating and got serious 3 years ago with a beautiful young lady with tatt's, crazy hair colors and a zest for life

Briefly wondered about this a couple of times, because that opportunity was there for me as well. Hmmmm.... Oh, what?

Anyway, I'm better off now, though.

LOL! It's fun times for sure, but if someone stuck me back to a time before BD and said "you have two paths to choose, this one is to stay married and continue your life as-is and this one is BD, D, meet this sexy young thing and do all this fun stuff you never had time for" I would without hesitation choose my M. I hope no one reads my comments and thinks I consider it a better alternative to M because I don't. Unfortunately I wasn't given that choice so I made the best with what life handed me, which is really what I hope everyone takes away from my comments. Deal with what you're handed and make the best of it whether it's recon or not. I love reading yours and Steve's posts (and others here who have reconciled) and am thrilled that some of you were able to make it through and save your M, I think THAT is what this site is really all about! But I do enjoy my life, it's a lot different since BD than where I previously thought it was going but it's fun times for sure

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Just be aware, burned, when you start turning yourself around, there will be other opportunities out there. I've seen it posted on these forums frequently that often by the time the LBS gets himself turned around, in the cases where the Wayward spouse tries to "come back", the LBS no longer wants anything to do with the wayward spouse, and the LBS then becomes the "walk-away."

Exactly right. Especially if a couple of years (or more) have gone by. A lot of LBS's just want their M back so things will "go back to normal" but at some point the fog clears, you realize things weren't so hot after all, and more importantly you realize there is no going back to normal no matter what happens.

Originally Posted by burned

AS and Amoafwl have been jackhammering me with the "move on with your life" thing and I'm making slow progress there.

Yes, I mean I hope you don't think I'm saying "ditch your M" because I'm not, I'm saying your best path forward is to focus on you and your life and quit feeding energy where it's not doing any good. Do that and hopefully -later- recon will be an option. We all go through the "super-needy" phase where we try to do everything we can to get our spouse back, then we pretend we're DB'ing while still being super-needy. Then we eventually start DB'ing while monitoring our spouse every second for changes, and finally we start DB'ing for real. The sooner you start the "real" DB'ing the better your recon chances.

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I'm just so stuck on how DONE she is (she NEVER took off her rings, and that was a MAJOR symbolic gesture, as well as removing my last name from her Instagram username). Sounds like, at this point, DB is just "rebuild your darn life."

Steve, Joe and other reconciled men here will tell you they heard the exact same things from their W's. DB is indeed about rebuilding your life, but that doesn't mean there's no chance of recon.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Originally Posted by burned

AS and Amoafwl have been jackhammering me with the "move on with your life" thing and I'm making slow progress there.

Yes, I mean I hope you don't think I'm saying "ditch your M" because I'm not, I'm saying your best path forward is to focus on you and your life and quit feeding energy where it's not doing any good. Do that and hopefully -later- recon will be an option. We all go through the "super-needy" phase where we try to do everything we can to get our spouse back, then we pretend we're DB'ing while still being super-needy. Then we eventually start DB'ing while monitoring our spouse every second for changes, and finally we start DB'ing for real. The sooner you start the "real" DB'ing the better your recon chances.

Nope, I get what you're saying. It's all a lot of paradoxical stuff. I don't trust it but I don't have a choice. The jackhammering is necessary to get some ACTION behind it, and I appreciate it.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Originally Posted by burned

I'm just so stuck on how DONE she is (she NEVER took off her rings, and that was a MAJOR symbolic gesture, as well as removing my last name from her Instagram username). Sounds like, at this point, DB is just "rebuild your darn life."

Steve, Joe and other reconciled men here will tell you they heard the exact same things from their W's. DB is indeed about rebuilding your life, but that doesn't mean there's no chance of recon.

This is good to hear, although I'm sure I wouldn't care as much if I were more detached. I do want to clarify the italicized statement. She never took her rings off BEFORE 8/31 when she said she wanted D. Then she did.

Speaking of that, I think I managed to screw up AGAIN. One of the things I left on the porch that I told her I didn't want was a set of cards that she had given me as a gift during the good days shortly post BD. I realize now that if I didn't want them I should have just tossed them. Instead I "made a statement" in an attempt to show her that I am moving on. Bad idea, burned. Manipulative.

I can't get out of my own way. ARGH burned stop worrying about what she thinks! But I maybe overdid it on the alpha thing. That was just sort of trite and mean.

Originally Posted by hoosjim

Dont think this necessarily "changes anything", but it is interesting to note that alot of WW's seem to share this background: Oldest or at least most responsible older child, often the one responsible for helping to raise, set an example for, or keep the others in line, often seen as the "good child", religious upbringing to a certain extent. These are all things in their pasts that WW's when they go wayward are rebelling against, amongst other things. Sandi and my W both fit this profile. Sandi has written about this quite alot, of course, and if you have not read her WW threads (which start at the bottom of her 35 rules string, you need to. She also discusses these phenomena, as well as others common to the WW, all very helpfully, in my strings... but obviously the info is much more spread out, there.

This profile is so true. How free do they feel now that they can finally, FINALLY fulfill their heart's desire ... *puke

My WW fits this as well.

Originally Posted by burned

I'm just so stuck on how DONE she is (she NEVER took off her rings, and that was a MAJOR symbolic gesture, as well as removing my last name from her Instagram username). Sounds like, at this point, DB is just "rebuild your darn life."

Don't worry about that, they all do it. My W did that and has come and gone 4 times now.

Learn from your mistakes. Was it really mean? Or just that the sight of some meaningless gift she gave you after rocking your world? Did the gift mean anything? Or was it just her way of manipulating you?

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

Originally Posted by burned

I'm just so stuck on how DONE she is (she NEVER took off her rings, and that was a MAJOR symbolic gesture, as well as removing my last name from her Instagram username). Sounds like, at this point, DB is just "rebuild your darn life."

Don't worry about that, they all do it. My W did that and has come and gone 4 times now.

Yeah your sitch is rough. But my W hasn't left and come back at all. She has just been leaving, one foot in front of the other, for going on 4 months now.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

Learn from your mistakes. Was it really mean? Or just that the sight of some meaningless gift she gave you after rocking your world? Did the gift mean anything? Or was it just her way of manipulating you?

It meant something at the time. Now it's just a painful reminder. Maybe not 100% manipulative, at least not at the time, but since I'm reevaluating all of that, maybe.

Sort of regretting it. Learning from the mistake. She will certainly see it as "pouty" but my goal was to say, "Since we're done here, I don't want the stuff that you wanted me to have, even if you meant it at the time." Which as I'm typing this sounds like yet another thing that will reduce the likelihood of recon.

In fact, it reeks of pursuit.

Ugh.

Originally Posted by hoosjim

Dont think this necessarily "changes anything", but it is interesting to note that alot of WW's seem to share this background: Oldest or at least most responsible older child, often the one responsible for helping to raise, set an example for, or keep the others in line, often seen as the "good child", religious upbringing to a certain extent. These are all things in their pasts that WW's when they go wayward are rebelling against, amongst other things. Sandi and my W both fit this profile. Sandi has written about this quite alot, of course, and if you have not read her WW threads (which start at the bottom of her 35 rules string, you need to. She also discusses these phenomena, as well as others common to the WW, all very helpfully, in my strings... but obviously the info is much more spread out, there.

Well, I�m a former WH...I fit on the list too 😔

Originally Posted by burned

She will certainly see it as "pouty" but my goal was to say, "Since we're done here, I don't want the stuff that you wanted me to have, even if you meant it at the time." .

Your goal next time should be to ask yourself something like "Do I want this in my new life?"

If the answer is no, then leave it. If it's yes, then take it.
It doesnt matter what she "read into it" because THAT isnt something you can control.

There are a million different ways she could interpret your actions. Why are you causing yourself to spin around in circles trying to guess which one it might be when it doesnt really matter?

Whats important is how YOU think about your life and how YOU make your own choices.

STOP FOCUSING ON HER

Just dropping by for a quick check-in, Ima be offline for several days, prolly, but just wanted to see how things are going.

burned, it seems like you are somewhat better humor today. If so.... great! Just keep pushing forward. All of us here have faced this type of pain and adversity before, and we all made it through. You can do this, man!

Good advice from Amoafwl to "Stop focusing on her"... Something i definitely struggled with in my own sitch, and something which will definitely preoccupy you and keep you from being all you can be... if you let it. Just remember YOU are in control here!

My thoughts and prayers are with you, dude!

Originally Posted by burned

Nope, I get what you're saying. It's all a lot of paradoxical stuff. I don't trust it but I don't have a choice.

This is exactly why DB'ing is so hard, because it doesn't "feel" right!

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I do want to clarify the italicized statement. She never took her rings off BEFORE 8/31 when she said she wanted D. Then she did.

Meh. Don't sweat the details, it could mean something or nothing. Again, every reconciled man here will tell you they were convinced their W was 100% done and gone at some point. Every one. They ALL speak in absolutes. There's zero chance, I'm completely done, this will never work, there's no reason to try. They take their rings off. They get rid of family photos. They look for a new place. They make new friends, lock their phone, sleep with it in their hands for crying out loud. And yet many of them DO change their minds later.

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Speaking of that, I think I managed to screw up AGAIN. One of the things I left on the porch that I told her I didn't want was a set of cards that she had given me as a gift during the good days shortly post BD. I realize now that if I didn't want them I should have just tossed them. Instead I "made a statement" in an attempt to show her that I am moving on. Bad idea, burned. Manipulative.

That's OK, at least you recognized it. Kind of a passive/ aggressive thing, right? Learn and keep moving forward.

Thank you to all. I really appreciate the encouragement. Obviously I'm still struggling with the same stuff but on the surface I think I feel at least 25% better.

Time for some GAL: schlepping boxes.

OK. Right now. "Good morning."

I AM GOING TO BE STRONG. I know that if I don't reply she will eventually say what it is that she really wants to say, or ask. I won't respond unless there is a question.

I don't need her crumbs. I am not her plan B.

Achilles doesn't give a rats rear who says good morning to him.

Achilles cares if someone is tearing open his tent to get at him.

(Achilles also feels like puking.)

Originally Posted by burned

"Good morning."

Serious question. What is the WORST thing you can imagine happens as a result of not responding to this text?

I had to sit and think about this for a while.

Pretty much nothing, except more anger and/or retribution. She will be at school all weekend, possibly sleeping w/ OM if he's still in the picture. Maybe push her more in that direction? Nothing I can do about it anyway if that's her plan. More stuff thrown out onto the porch.

I'm guessing your point is, so what? Can't get much worse. And it's counterintuitive so if anything it could help.

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I'm also suddenly very worried that she might somehow see these threads. No idea how she would figure it out. Worried that maybe I mentioned "message boards" during one MC session (but it could have been during IC, it's all a jumble). I copied and pasted some texts without paraphrasing, so she could theoretically search for those. Not sure how she would come up with that idea.

So, anxiety level is up.

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Edit: wow, I really DO fear her rage.

New thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2814729