MY TRAGIC WAW STORY PART XII - DivorceBusting.com

Previous thread here...
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2803551&page=10

For those curious for an update I did get a text from WAW about 8 days ago, The Thursday before last. She apparently needed to borrow $40. So I told her I couldn't give it to her until the next day. She thanked me and she asked if I wanted her to come my way. I told her we could meet wherever but I had a lot to do since it was my only day off and it would have to be later in the day. She asked why don't I come to her place anytime after 6. I agreed. So I stopped by and dropped it off to her but left after about 20 minutes.

She also texted me a few days later on my birthday wishing me a happy one. I thanked her.

That's about it. I've been super busy so I haven't had time to post here but it's just more of the same crap with her.
She did mention that she is not dating anymore until next year. Not sure why she wanted to share that but somehow it came up at one point. So yeah I don't expect many updates to come...there clearly won't be an R and I am so bored with her. I'm kind of into a new lady too...but taking it slow. Also got a text from Mary out of the blue just telling me she was watching my favorite movie and was frustrated because she "couldn't get my voice out of her head." Whatever, these women are nuts. Then again maybe I am.

In any event, I know many of you who are suffering with your bomb drops being recent were hoping for a happy ending here but I'm sorry to say it's not going to happen. Believe me, I wish I hadn't failed for you all but I can't make her see light.

I leave you all for now with this classic Eagles lyric that always reminds me of her...

"Just remember this my girl, when you look up in the sky; you can see the stars and still not see the light."

IH, hmm. This has been a puzzling one.I still think maybe one more last direct approach might show you that she really was interested in R. Do you typically let the woman be the aggressor? Maybe you've already answered that question.

Hey Steve,
Actually yes I typically do make the women chase me. Even WAW herself pursued me when we first got together back in 1996. We were just acquaintances at that time but she came up to me one night and said "Can I ask you something? Do you find me attractive at all?! You never pay any attention to me!" Then from there the rest is history. I do this because I feel if a girl, who instinctively wants a man to be the pursuer, resorts to pursuing you then she must be serious. There's far less chance of her being a game player. Mary also pursued me. it's just a way for me to let the trash take itself out to the curb.
Now as far as WAW goes, I still plan to seize every chance I can to get her to go on a date...but right now I'm seeing a lady informally too. I'm sure WAW will contact me again and I must say since money was a big factor in the demise of our marriage...it felt great for her to "need" me for a loan...in spite of this obsession she has with proving her ability to be independent to herself.

Okay...I see the reasons you state for letting yourself be pursued, but is there more to it than that underneath? Do you fear rejection?

What would be so bad about calling WAW up tonight and saying: "Look, I know we've had some good times recently, but I have to be honest, I am not interested in friendship. I never stopped being attracted to you and loving you. And I would like a chance to show you that I've changed and could make a new R with you work so much better than our first one did. So what do you say, will you date me and give me one last chance?"

I doubt you will do this since you haven't up to this point, but trust me, life is too short to sit back and wait. GO FOR IT. (Unless you really like this new gal.)

Glad to see an update, IH.

I trust that you know her and your instincts are correct. Do what feels right to you. We are in no position to tell you what you should do. You know as well as any of us that have been at this for years that this journey is a very long, bumpy, and unpredictable one! There are always unknowns and yet things can change on a dime, but we cannot make them happen.This involves knowing when and what to let go of. Life will unfold as it will.

I believe that when we let go of asserting control, then we create freedom, and that is ultimately what love is.

Good luck with this other lady!

Blu

No Steve, I'm not really in fear of rejection. Mainly because if my divorce, which let's face it, is the ultimate form of rejection, didn't ruin me for life...some girl saying no to a date isn't going to ruffle my feathers. It's mainly for the reason I stated...if a woman goes against her instincts and chases...she must really want what she's purusing. This saves me the aggravation of wasting my time. So no, I don't fear rejection because as I said, I've survived the ultimate form of rejection with my divorce that was totally unexpected. As far as me coming out and point blank asking her as you suggest...I see no need to. She left me so I don't feel like she should enjoy the luxury of me pursuing her...she needs to chase me or forget it. I don't need her, I merely want her. So if she never does then so be it. I take things as they come. I'm not desperate to get back with her...I guess that's why I am kind of carefree about it all. Yes I like this new lady enough to see her fairly often but nothing serious. Just having fun and enjoying her company.

Hi Blu, yes knowing her like I do I always sense there's something going on inside her regarding me. Meaning I don't believe she's at total peace with us just being friends. An example of this is her feeling the need to always mention that she's not dating anyone. Okay great but why would I care if I'm just your pal? It makes no sense. She obviously wants to make it clear that she's staying single for a few months. Plus remember, she would have to eat A LOT of crow with A LOT of people if she ever got back with me. That also likely plays a role in this whole thing.
But yes, I make my decisions based on my instincts regarding her and how she thinks. I just have consistently had this sense when I'm with her that she is not as content with us being just friends forever. Hard to explain but it is almost like she has to control herself from saying or doing things that she wants to do. Like she can't give in without sacrificing her desire to prove to herself that she can survive on her own.

IH, all fair enough! Very good points, I hadn't thought of it in that light before.

Thanks for the update ItHurts. You know I agree with your rationale here. I could see some version of what Steve said in some circumstances. For example, if she at some point asked why you've been less responsive you could say something like "After spending some time with you I know I still have a special place in my heart for you and I can even picture the two of us together. I'm not sure if that's truly possible for me or not because, like you, I would never want to return to the relationship we had before. But either way it was enough for me to discover that while it was nice to reconnect and catch up, a friendship alone with you won't really work for me."

The key would be that you're not saying you're all in, just that you were open to exploring things. Because I think that's true. Frankly if I were you I wouldn't jump back into bed with her, I'd need to be given a reason to think her "I do" would mean more this time than the last time, because who needs to go through a repeat?!?

Thanks Zues. Yeah she's just going to have to be the one to do the footwork here. I'm certainly not doing it under any circumstances.
As far as updates go, my ex mother-in-law texted me last week and asked if I was available and willing to help her with some computer issues she's having. So I went over there yesterday and had coffee with her and fixed her PC.
Today WAW texted to thank me early this afternoon. I replied with no problem. She continued the convo but I was at work and had to give quick answers with my last being "glad your Mom is happy."
Then about 20 minutes ago she texted again..."Yes she was. Hey what's your weekend look like? I'm thinking of doing a fire pit." I haven't replied yet as I'm still debating if I even want to or not.
"

God I remember reading your thread, IH, the very first one I've ever read here. And it took me time to figure out the order of it all.

I know you are more laid back about this, but I don't know why you don't just go for it. You say it's no big deal and you're planning on her not wanting R with you. So why not just go for it and lay down the ultimatum? What do you have to lose? It seems like both of you don't want to let go, maybe it's time for some pursuit. You say you're such a different guy, well this would be different. And if she says no, then you just smile and let her know that if she needs anything in the future that you might be busy. Then it's left foot right foot, on out the door.

Of course, what works for me doesn't necessarily work for you. I am praying for you.

Well I decided to use her invite as an opportunity to take her to dinner. I really didn't just want to go to her house for a fire again. So I asked her to dinner and she accepted. So we will be going out to dinner Friday night. I'll keep you all posted.

Originally Posted by ItHurts

Well I decided to use her invite as an opportunity to take her to dinner. I really didn't just want to go to her house for a fire again. So I asked her to dinner and she accepted. So we will be going out to dinner Friday night. I'll keep you all posted.

BAM! Well done. I am proud of you.

However, what is the state of the other lady?

Hi Steve,
Thanks. Things are okay with the new lady too. Neither of us wants anything formal for now so we just enjoy each other's company. But we agreed for now that we both can see other people too and see where it goes.

Good to hear. Make sure to use the Sex Panther cologne before you go.

Hahahaha oh man LMAO! That's great ovrrnbw LOL! I'll be sure to douse myself in it! Here I was planning to use my Old Spice because they say if my grandfather didn't wear it I wouldn't be here LOLOL!

IH-make sure if you are pouring drinks to give her an extra shot of the "panty remover elixir" - satisfaction guaranteed or your money and panties back!! LOL

Well she is a very sexual woman and if she's not dating anyone I'm sure she is...wanting...and yours truly will forever have an edge with her in that department. There is a method to my madness!

Originally Posted by ItHurts

Well she is a very sexual woman and if she's not dating anyone I'm sure she is...wanting...and yours truly will forever have an edge with her in that department. There is a method to my madness!

You were in the same bed, in the same room while she was changing, she took off her bra while you gave her a back rub. If what you say above is true something is not adding up. Either you're really good at blowing your own horn or she's really not in to you at all other than just being friends.

Time to man up and put an end to this excruciating madness once and for all. Time to man up!

Good luck!

Watch it IH! LH is aiming for the heads here!

i am so glad that you asked her to dinner instead of doing the fire pit... way to initiate a change of scenery...

LH, you are taking everything out of context LOL! We were watching a movie when I rubbed her back because she was in serious pain...it wasn't me slowly dropping her bra straps and gently caressing her as I massaged her LOL! It wasn't the sensual moment you apparently think it was, it was for true pain relief LOL!
As far as being in her bed, we were both puking bro...sick... hungover. So this also was not sexual thing. As I recall that's when she said that actually before I ever went in there...I was on her couch.

Yes, my remark was a bit egotistical I suppose but you know what? So what if it is? This woman walked out on me 4 years ago, with absolutely no warning, after almost two decades together! Now here she is, showing NOTHING except that she wants me back in her life and all you ever want from me is me to just bang her!! Screw that! She wants me, then she can come get me!!!! If she doesn't want me...then I will make her eventually want me. But I'm not going to chase her. Forget it. I don't need her for sex. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't kick her out of my bed for eating crackers, but it's not a top priority for me. What is a prirority of mine is to make DAMNED sure if we wind up in the sack, it's going to be via HER initiation, not mine. So that's it.

So yes, she doesn't like long periods of time without sex and I know she's not getting any, so I think she's getting sexually frustrated. That partnered with the fact that she habitually hangs out with me as she does, and that she is familiar with me, then yeah, I have a huge edge in the sex department. That's not meant as a measurement of some juvenile schoolyard talk of "How far did ya get with her?" or "What base did you make it to?"

Trust me, I know what I'm doing with her...she's doing exactly what I want her to do. She keeps initiating the contact, every single time, she keeps being forced to come out and ask for me to spend time with her because I never even contact her much less initiate meetings; basically she's clearly needed me in her life and she's slowly getting reattached. Early on when she first contacted me after years back in the Spring I wasn't sure how to proceed, how to not scare her off. Well the arrogance you sense is me now obviously and clearly seeing that she is doing anything but running away. She clearly needs me, my presence, my soul, in her life. Deep down she knows why too...so I let her do what she does and I do what I do. We could both date a half dozen people before we ever get back together but really, who cares? If you're happy every day you don't sweat a "mate." You let fate handle that. My life will lead me wherever I'm supposed to go...just like it delivered me from the bowels of hell when she first left me. Now I have the power, I don't really care what she ultimately does. I'd like to R, but if we don't we don't. It doesn't mean I can't be happy with some other girl who comes along.

Originally Posted by ItHurts

This woman walked out on me 4 years ago, with absolutely no warning, after almost two decades together! Now here she is, showing NOTHING except that she wants me back in her life and all you ever want from me is me to just bang her!

This is not true. I want to you you reconcile. I want to see you become her lover. I want you to give people here hope that what they believe is true. The grass is not greener on the other side.

The issue I have always had with you is your actions don't line up with your words. You act like you can take her or leave her but yet you are so scared she will rebuff you and you will lose her.

Listen we all have opinions on the matter. Personally I think you have watched one to many romcoms where you think she is magically going to fall in love with you if you keep being available to her and her friend.

I am more of a direct and to the point kind of guy. You never have to apologize for wanting a woman.

Put an end to it tonight!

Good luck!

I'm in the middle. Not quite as direct as LH but not as passive as IH. I think this is the part in the cartoon where the little crab sings "Kiss dee girl!"

Hi guys,
Okay last night was nice. I picked her up and took her out to a fancy restaurant. We had a lot of fun.
Afterwards when we got back to her place we talked in my car a bit. For whatever reason I just decided it was time to lay it down. The subject of R came up. She said she was planning on having the conversation with me about "the elephant in the room" and that it's good we're having it.
Basically she said she'd be lying if she told me the thought of R hasn't crossed her mind a few times. She said we laugh hysterically together, she loves being with me, and she knows she wouldn't have to deal with the "bullshit" she's experienced with other men if she was with me. She said she knows that if she ever got back with me it would be full conmittment, she used the term "all in."

Then she went on to say what she had said many times before. That she is not dating anyone at all right now and really doesn't plan on it for awhile. She said she needs this time to live on her own. She again said see went from living with her parents, to living with me for nearly 20 years, to living with her friend in Florida...that she has never had the experience of living alone and that she needs to experience it. She mentioned that she's afraid she'd regress and fall back into her old habits with me. She also said that she needs to stand on her own. That for so many years see relied on me for support and that she needs to experience this independence. She said she's thought to herself about how much fun we have, and how much she enjoys spending time with me and that maybe we should just get back together.
However she always ultimately decides that she needs to work on herself some more. She needs to be absolutely sure that things won't be as they were before. She said I definitely can't rule it out that we could reconcile. She said it was no coincidence that we had photo albums to exchange. She suggested that fate brought us together again. She's just not sure why yet. I told her that what happens if I get serious with someone else and have to cut off our reestablished contsct? She said that she'd miss me but she knew that this was all possibly just a flash in the pan. I then came out and said, " Yeah but you need me." Then I looked at her in the face and said "you need me" again. At this point she nudged my arm and laughed and said "yes I do you jerk" and laughed as if she made some confession she didn't want to make. I told her yeah it has been obvious to me. I told her her current flight pattern seems to be that she needs to see me at least once a month. She laughed almost embarrassed that I said it like that and she agreed.

As I suspected, she is afraid that all this self improvement she's done would be erased if we reconciled. I told her no, you would simply take that with you...that it isn't either a relationship or your identity. That both can, and should coexist.
She said her and I are a complicated situation. She said that right now she doesn't want to be with any man. She wants to be alone. She again said it's not like I'm dating...I don't want to. She said she's not at all impressed with her past potential suitors. She said "I can't predict the future but I definitely can't rule out the possibility of reconciling at some point. She said there's times she wishes she had someone hut more often than not she doesn't.

She also mentioned that her Mom, obviously my ex MIL, was thrilled that I cam over for coffee and to fix her computer. He said "My mother wants to marry you now. She thinks you're great." I laughed and said it was really no big deal and that I've always loved her Mom to death. She mentioned she was hanging out with her Mom today. She said that she's not interested in anyone romantically right now and asked if I was serious with anyone. I answered her honestly and told her about the new gal I've been seeing but also was truthful and told her it's nothing serious as of yet. So we kind of jjust agreed to hang out conservatively as we do and see what happens. It's funny because she said a lot of the same things that I've said here to you guys and and I laughed inside to myself as she did. She's basically in the same place I am...where it's kind of just letting things go and seeing where we end up. Basically as long as neither of us is serious with someone else that what we're doing works. She again said she can't predict the future but she doesn't rule out R with me. She said let's just keep spending time together as we are and let fate lead us where it will.

So all in all I am happy the air is cleared and even happier that she thinks of things as I do in terms of just letting whatever is going to happen happen. Inside I'm thinking to myself that I also took a big step taking her out on a dinner date because now I can invite her to other fun events down the road.

I guess you can say that the status quo is this...neither of us sees any reason to not spend time together and seeing where it all leads. I'm fine with that and have been. She is too. So I guess all I can tell you all following this thread is that neither of us has any idea what's going to happen...we just know that R is not out of the question at some point for either one of us.
Works for me.

(It's always hard to remember everything that was said when you spend several hours with someone but if I recall anything significant that was said that I missed I'll let you guys know.)

Hi It Hurts,

It's great to read your update. I'm happy to hear you and your ex-wife (potential future wife!) were able to talk openly and that you're both on the same page now. That is a great step forward. It all sounds positive!

Well Nicole, thank you but R is a longshot I think but it would be an appropriate ending for sure.
I guess why I feel content with it now is that my life is like the complete opposite of what it was back when she dropped that bastard atom bomb on me a little over 4 years ago. Back then while DBing GAL seemed to me to be impossible. My situation, in my head then, was that of me saying to myself that other people can GAL but my situation is so tragic it's different. In fact, and I know this now, it wasn't. Everyone suffers that brutal and inhuman pain after a bomd drop. So it's like GAL was such an impossibility and obsessing about WAW was the only possibility. Now it's the total opposite. GAL is more of my focus than her. I just got new wheels, I'm collecting my toys and action figures again, I enjoy my job and work a lot, and am just living. WAW is an afterthought just as my other lady friends are. It's not a necessity to me. Whatever happens happens...the only stuff I can control is my own life and I'm happy doing that.

Oh and couple other things she said I forgot to mention was at one point she said she knows she'll never find anyone who loves her like I do. She also said she totally understands what I "meant" when I told her a few months ago that I will always believe she belonged with me. She said "you are right for so many different reasons. I totally get exactly what you mean when you say that."

She also brought up my manhood again. When talking about her displeasures with other men she got to penis size and looked at me and said ,"(My full name), you win that one hands down!"and she raised her hand to high five me. I'm sure I'll remember more stuff in the coming days

i am glad you enjoyed your time together... i do see your situation differently than you and Nicole do... i am of the opinion that everything she said to you was predictable... noncommittal... it's easy to latch on to the idea that all the self-improvement would be undone--that's a great reason to be concerned about as far as having a relationship with you goes... she said all the things i would have said if i wanted to let someone down as gently as possible without actually saying it--because i have been gutless in these types of situations... it's like what i have often pointed out to hoosjim... words mean something... they matter... words that are spoken and words that are not spoken...

everything she said to you is why i think you really do need to move on... i believe that your chance at truly getting her back will not happen until you move on... at that point--when you have moved on, and she declares she wants you back--you would have a decision to make... but if you do enjoy hanging out with her, and you are in no hurry to have an exclusive relationship with anybody else, then--enjoy yourself for the time being... you just won't be moving toward to relationship with her--in my opinion...

as always--mis dos centavos...

--artista

Well Artista, it's probably not going to last now that we had the talk anyway because for me it was go places with her or nothing. Something other than hang at her house.

So I've already said before I am not hanging out with her at her place anymore, that's why I asked her to dinner this time...I am just not doing it. So my only option is to do things with her. But there's a problem right there. I most definitely won't be taking her out for a fancy dinner or spend money again. So it really leaves me no choice but to just stop seeing her. Perhaps next time she contacts me to hang out I'll just do something else. I've said before that I am kind of bored with her as it is now. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy her company insofar as we laugh and have a great time together...but if I'm taking a lady out to a fancy restaurant a second time...I'm getting something out of it

So I might just stop seeing her. As crude as it sounds, I work all week and don't necessarily want one of my weekend nights to be wasted on her anymore. Bored with her is the only way I can describe how I feel. So I think it's going to be a longer time before I see her again.

IH, glad you got all that out in the open but WOW, I thought she would be past being a WAW but now I'm not so sure. A lot of that sounds like the WAW stuff all over again. So now that you know you are Plan B while she "finds herself", how does that affect your approach with her moving forward? (EDIT- just read your most recent post and you already answered this!)

Just going to nick you on one minor point in the convo:

Quote

As I suspected, she is afraid that all this self improvement she's done would be erased if we reconciled. I told her no, you would simply take that with you...that it isn't either a relationship or your identity. That both can, and should coexist.

Don't respond like this, to her it looks like you are disagreeing with her feelings. Remember to validate. "Yes I can understand why you might feel that way and how it is affecting your outlook on us reconciling."

Yes AS, this is why some people were reminding me awhile back that I'm not dealing with a WAW anymore and that I should stop DBing her. I had a sense from her all along that she was basically in the same place she was 4 years ago. Nothing has changed for her. I'm just bored senseless with her nownamd just don't really want to hang out anymore.
So I'm not going to just vanish, but I am no longer engaging her beyond a sentence or two when she texts. I can't really see her again because as I said above, it occurred to me that my only choices now are hang out with her without going out...which isn't happening...or go out and spend money on her...which isn't happening either. So I have no choice but to avoid lengthy interactions with her. It sounds a bit mean but she's just not worth my time. it's just how I feel.

Of course I'll come back and post whenever there's an interaction with her but it's not going to be lengthy. I'm done with this crap with her...it's just stupid. She had her chance, I laid the chips on the table, and all I got was essentially the same conversation we had 4 years ago when she left. The only awesome difference between then and now is that I'm not bothered by it so intensely as I was then. I have total confidence she needs me in her life...she just needs to learn (apparently the hard way) that if she wants me in her life it's going to be on MY terms, which is the mutual goal of R. I am not accepting anything less anymore. I can seek a relationship elsewhere when I feel like being in one again.
As they say in the homeland...ende finite...I am done with this crap.

It Hurts, It's interesting to see the quick change in your mindset. Was it because of comments on this forum or just your own conclusion that this isn't going anywhere? It still seems like a good thing that you and your ex-wife had that talk. It helped you reach this point. It's still nice for the rest of us to hear what can happen years after a divorce. It also really sounds like your ex-wife enjoys your company. You do seem to have the upper hand now. I hope everything goes well from here on!

Well it was a combination of both Nicole, the thoughts presented here from posters as well as me taking a couple days to digest everything. So both things had a role in leading me to this decision. Yes, I too feel I have the upper hand here because I just know she wants me around. The problem is that she wants me around on her timeline...not mine. As long as that's the case and we're not moving towards R I'm just not at all interested in spending time with her anymore.
But yes, I don't believe for a minute that she's going to go away...some time may pass, but she'll be wanting me to spend time with her again soon. I'm just not doing it anymore and if she gets to a point where she asks me why...I'll just tell her. If she doesn't ask then she can stew with her thoughts.

That's why I'm getting out while I do still have the upper hand to some degree insofar as I know she won't be happy not seeing me at all anymore. Maybe that will be the kick in the butt she needs to realize she's only going to get more of the same dating new men, that being her constant complaints that essentially say they are not me. She will never have what she had with me in terms of the things she complains about ( ie: all men our age look "old" to her, no man is endowed as I am, no man doesn't drink alcohol to some degree regularly, etc. These are the things she has repeatedly complained about and either directly or indirectly compared other men to me. So I think you are right in that I do have the upper hand here because if she's STILL comparing men to her ex of 4 years ago...that tells me loud and clear she has unresolved feelings. She will not find one like me and I know it and I think she knows it.
However she's on her own now because I am done. She knows where I'm coming from now and can do with that knowledge whatever she wants. I'm just keepin'on keepin' on Nicole.

IH,

I am still trying to wrap my head around the fact that you think you have the upper hand. As AS stated after fours years you are still plan B. But that I guess is for another time.

First thing I want to comment on is her comparing you to other men is completely normal. Heck now that I am dating again I am comparing women to my ex, other girlfriends, heck even my GF from high school.

On this site we always talk about actions vs words. Your actions do not match your words. You keep on talking about how you can take her or leave her, that you won't stand for just being friends yet you keep doing the same thing. You think going out to dinner as friends is any different then hanging out at her house as friends. Its the same thing! You can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig.

One thing I have learned over the last few years is you don't get what you deserve in life, you get what you negotiate. But to get what you want you have to be willing to walk away from terms that are not acceptable to you.

If you would of communicated to her her early on through actions (making a move) you would have known where you stood. Then you could have communicated to her in a loving matter that you are not interested in just being friends with her. Then if she said "that's all I am interested right now is a friendship" then you could have said "that doesn't work for me, I can't be just friends with you, call me if you change your mind". Then walked and never looked backed.

Then if she contacts you then you know it is to be more because you clearly stated what you wanted and what was acceptable to you. Your terms non-negotiable.

Now if you ignore her she is going think you are butt hurt because she rejected you again.

Look man I know its not easy and you were getting a lot of different advice on here but I truly believed you had a chance early on. Still do, just going to be a lot harder now.

Well that's just it LH...the contradictory advice that we've all talked about throughout this thread. A couple were saying to NOT hang out with her at her place...instead go out and do something. So that's what I did. It blew up in my face. The time before that when she needed money I only stopped by and dropped it off and left. So when I say I can take her or leave her...I mean it. I didn't think of the last two encounters as the "same thing" at all. I asked her out somewhere this time...and it will be the last time.
Now as far as me having a chance at R, I'm not sure how you think I still have a chance at all. As far as I'm concerned I don't...so I'm done. I just don't see any chance so I don't want to bother with her anymore. I'm not going to ignore her for the very reason you cite, I am just not talking with her at length anymore and certainly not meeting up with her again. I'm sticking a fork in this one because it's done. I'm not wasting another weekend night on her for nothing other than to satisfy her needs. Screw that. So yeah, you or anyone else doesn't have to believe me....but I really am not bothered either way. Either she chases me or she can go whistle dixie. This boy is finished, done LOL!

IT,

Yeah I think the plan would be to be short with your responses. No more meet ups.

She will eventually ask you whats wrong. Then state what you want and if she can't give it to you then ask her to only contact you if she changes her mind.

Perfect plan in every way and I love it. Exactly what I was thinking.

Originally Posted by ItHurts

Well that's just it LH...the contradictory advice that we've all talked about throughout this thread. A couple were saying to NOT hang out with her at her place...instead go out and do something. So that's what I did. It blew up in my face.

I don't think it blew up at all, it gave you some great clarity and now you have a course of action! No more hanging on in limbo wondering where things are going. I don't think you knew what you wanted before but at least now you know what you DON'T want- this senseless friendzone corner she's shoved you into.

Originally Posted by ItHurts

Now as far as me having a chance at R, I'm not sure how you think I still have a chance at all. As far as I'm concerned I don't...so I'm done. I just don't see any chance so I don't want to bother with her anymore. I'm not going to ignore her for the very reason you cite, I am just not talking with her at length anymore and certainly not meeting up with her again. I'm sticking a fork in this one because it's done. I'm not wasting another weekend night on her for nothing other than to satisfy her needs. Screw that. So yeah, you or anyone else doesn't have to believe me....but I really am not bothered either way. Either she chases me or she can go whistle dixie. This boy is finished, done LOL!

I'm all for that. Focus your efforts where they will be rewarded! If she chases you later then you can figure out whether to cross that bridge or toss a bomb on it, but until then you just keep doing you.

Ok,

I feel like I have to give everyone else here a 2x4...

It is a successful DBer insomuch that he has done everything he's needed to do to thrive post BD.

He's gone out and GALd and he's living his best life. He's become someone only a fool would leave.

It doesn't matter to him one iota whether or not he and EX reconcile because HE's done the work HE's needed to do to to feel good about where he's at.

SO all the garbage about him "still being plan B" needs to stop. It's very clear to me that she's his "plan B," which is how it should be.

All of us should be careful about stepping back into an R where things clearly were not working without being very sure that our XSO has made some real changes to who they are. We preach living your best life; that's what GAL is.

on another note -and you can tell me if I/m wrong, IT- it really feels like there were ppl on this board who pushed you to confront XW into R talk.

It doesn't matter whether BD was a week ago or 4 years ago, when has bringing up an R talk ever been sound advice? The answer is never, Carol. N-E-V-E-R!

Some of you guys were so thirsty for a success story that you were actually giving advice counter to some very clear DB rules!

You do You, IT. It was working before and it will work again.

Good to hear there was some movement IH. It�s about expectations now man. You know now where to stand.

Originally Posted by Mowgli

Ok,
I feel like I have to give everyone else here a 2x4...

Thanks for the 2x4s M but number 1 she clearly isn't his plan B. He has been pretty open that he would love to reconcile and number 2 that can't really have a relationship talk when there not in a relationship.

There is nothing wrong with stating what he wants through actions or words as long is he is ok with walking away if she can't give him what he wants.

Yeah everyone loves a recon story it gives new posters hope.

Well you are both right really. WAW is kind of my Plan A in a way...meaning that if I wanted a relationship tomorrow with someone among the ladies in my life...WAW would be my first pick.
However, Mowgli is correct in that because of my DB work on myself all those years she was gone and there was absolutely no contact between us; she is not my end all/be all woman. In fact NO woman ever will be. I only need me.
So yes, I would love to R with WAW, but the whole relationship thing, with any of the women I see...not just WAW, is just not an overall priority in my life right now. Let's not forget Mary, who gets forgotten in all this WAW talk here...that was a serious, long term relationship for me of two years. We lived together. So I'm not necessarily twiddling my thumbs with anxiety rushing to get a girlfriend

That's why I can take WAW or leave WAW. I've said it at least 25 times now because it's the best descriptor of how I feel and I can't say it any clearer...I want WAW, I don't need WAW.

So both of you are correct, it's the difference between me coming home after the R talk the other night and crying myself into blessed unconsciousness (just like I used to when she first left) and coming home after the WAW talk and playing with my kitty for awhile, playing some Madden football, and going to sleep...which is what I really did.

It's been about two weeks - anything happening on the WAW front (Plan A) or anything else (Plan B or C or D)

Hi Don,
Actually I saw your post this morning and was intending to reply tonight to you to let you know that I haven't heard from WAW since that night. I've only met with her Mom a couple times at her house to help her with her eBay account. Ironically however WAW came strolling into my work tonight. So now I have an update ironically. b

Idon't have time to type the full update now but suffice to say WAW essentially asked ME on an actual date. I'll update you as soon as I have time. So more to come...very unexpectedly and ironically after I happened to see your post above this morning...

I hate cliffhangers!!

Okay I'm exhausted and have to hit the hay but I'll give you a quick rundown...

Totally unexpectedly shs pops into my work tonight. She was visiting our friends I've told you about the next town over.
I was getting off duty so she waited for me. While she was waiting she asked me about the new Halloween movie coming out next week. Now those of you that have been following my story thread since 2014 may remember that Halloween is mine and her favorite time of year. We always did our place up, got pumpkins, and binge watched the Halloween movie series over a weekend. So she brings up the new Halloween movie and asks if I'm going to go see it.
I said of course I was. She then hinted around her and I going to see it. So I just looked at her and smirked and said so that's why you stopped by here today. She got a little nervous and fidgety after I said that. I then said " Ahhh I see what's happening herw. So you want us to see the new movie together don't you?" She said "well yes, that was our special thing." So I said okay but we're doing dinner before. She said "Maybe we can go get punpkins and carve them too." I said that's an awful lot of things to do all in one night! She said she meant carve the pumpkins a different day.

Now before we came outside I mentioned something looked different about her face. She asked in a bad way? I said no, in a different way. Well when we were outside she mentioned she was crying this morning. Of course I asked the obligatory why? She then said she went on a date last night and the guy, on a first date for whatever reason, basically said to her that he had erectile dysfunction and was fighting a drinking problem. He told her he needed her to be patient with him. She told him look, I just met you...I don't need to be patient with anything. She didn't elaborate because by now I just HAD to be a wise ass and had already interrupted her with..."A date? What happened to waiting until nexr year haha?" She said she happened upon him on some dating site. I then busted out laughing. She said "what's so funny????"

Now it was here I had enoufg bullshit from her. So I basically said these things to her over the course of a conversation...
"What's so funny you ask? Well you say one week you're done with men and then the next I'm hearing about some new stooge you dig up somewhere." She laughed. I continued, "It's the same old story from you...you try dating some stiff only to find out he drinks, and they all have some sort of penis trouble hahaha!" I said, "you're establishing a pattern here...basically you complain to me about these clowns you date because they are not ME! They can't, and no one can, EVER give you the life you want...which is basically the one we both had for 18 years sans our problems that we've since rectified. It's getting stupid! I've told you before, I believe you belong with me...but I'm sure as [censored] not chasing you around and I can't force you to get your head out of your ass to see the obvious writing on the wall. Seriously WAW, this is just stupid now. You can't stay away, and now here you are, showing up at my work, trying to incite a rekindling of our Halloween traditions. Figure it out because this is stupid. Everything you've ever wanted you can have now. All I essentially hear from you is this ,"I went on a date and it sucked because he wasn't you. It's just a different date and a different name but that's always the moral of the story. It's obvious what you're suppose to be doing... getting back with me. You said it yourself when we talked R last time I saw you, it's the elephant in the room whenever we're together. You could have left it at that. Instead you show up here an hour ago. Why is that WAW? I sure know why it is, and you need to do the same. It tells me you obviously don't mind the elephant hanging with us. You know where I stand with getting back together. That's the extent of my initiation. It was you, my dear, who walked on me 4 years ago...you're just going to have to walk back if that's what you want. So I'll go see the movie, take you to dinner next Saturday after work. I'll also carve pumpkins the week after...BUT understand stand I'm not doing it to be your pal. You know my intentions and accept them. That's it WAW, that's all I got for ya'."

She replied by saying. "Yes it would be like all was right in the universe. I know a lot of people would be happy for us.
Look you're right, I've often thought of you when I was on dates, saying he wouldn't give me this [censored], he wouldn't do this or that or act this way or that way. So
can we just go to the movies and take it one day at a time?" I said, "yes as long as the 'it' is exploring getting back together. Not if it's to be pals. Of course we're friends, but taking you to dinner and a movie is a date." She smiled and said " I couldn't get you out of the house for 18 years and now you're taking me on dates." I replied, "well things would have to be different if we got back together, neither of us wants what was before. That's why I was telling you last time that R doesn't mean giving up, or erasing, your new lifestyle you needed to build for yourself. It's like you think it's one or the other." She then just looked at me like she was seriously considering everything I was saying about R. Hard to explain in writing but there was DEFINITELY POSITIVELY going on in her head about R...I even suspect it was before she even got to my work. There was no opposition to anything I said as there seemed to be before.

Then I had to go so I told her I'll text her sometime this week with our plans for Saturday, time, etc. I told her to think of where she wanted to go to dinner. She said okay thank you. She then said I love you and gave me a tight hug. As I was walking away I looked back and yelled "Oh and also...I mean it...think of everything I told you and get your head out of your ass and read the obvious writing on the wall as to what you should be doing."
She smiled and said "I will be." And that w.as that.

This is everything I can recall but as always it's easy to forget other things that were said but I'll post if/when I remember anything. I'll also let you guys know what I've been up to, mostly working many, many hours to make some miney.

Ha! A miracle!
Dude you handled this so well I am taking notes!
Well done!

IH!! Love it! Well done.

Only piece of advice, don't leave it to her on the restaurant. She picked the movie. Step up and be decisive about where to take her. From all my post BD reading this is one of the big thing that Ws find unattractive is having to make all the little decisions. So when you text her say. I've looked up movie times, we"ll go to the x o'clock showing. Also, I'll pick you up at x time so that we have time to go to x restaurant for dinner. See you at x on Saturday." Be the alpha.

That is the best thing I�ve read all day. Four years!!! Yikes!! Way to go. Sounds really promising and you handled that exceedingly well. I�m taking notes too. Goes to show you that we really do not know what is going on in our spouse�s minds and that when we think nothing is going on because we don�t hear from them, that may actually be the time when a shift is taking place. So happy for you IH!!

Oh... and as a woman... I completely agree with Steve. Don�t leave all the decisions up to her. Have a fantastic time!!!

Wow, i was just going to tell you to pick the restaurant. Guess i dont need to lol! Keep us updated. Wow, 4 years.

Yeah I'll just send her a text of full plans...where we're going and at what times.

Yeah I just had enough of her crap. It was just stupid what was going on. Yesterday was the final straw with her! It's like, stop complaining to me how none of these stiffs she dates isn't this or that! I can really give two sh**s whom you date unless it's me. The crap needed to stop and the pow-wows needed to halt. I was bored. So I laid it out...gave her a chance to back out of the Halloween festivities with me, and she didn't. She definitely was in a different place somehow...like this movie coming out was her wake up call...that and this date must have in some way profoundly altered her perspective of me, somehow, I can't pinpoint it, since it was enough to make her cry. I can't imagine she'd be crying over some guy she met once...I think she was telling me some veiled message. Not that that mind reading crap matters anyway. I just know something triggered something within her because there was something about her yesterday that left me with a sense that she was now thinking if possible R. I wish I could explain it but it's just something knowing her...only way I could describe it was there was no opposition to anything I said which there was a bit of before.

So I guess you could say I reached my breaking point with her because yet AGAIN she intentionally seeks ME out and this time it's not to make pretty little fires and hug each other good night like good little pals do. Something I haven't quite put my finger on was noticeably different in her receptiveness to the blatant R talk. I can't describe it but it left me aith a sense that she is now seriously thinking about us getting back together.

But as always, I'm just going along for the ride to wherever my life road leads me. I just wanted to make DAMN sure she knows that ALL future meetings are now predicated on possible R in her head, not buddies. Screw that. To be honest I've always thought of her too on Halloween and how awesome it was when we were together. Of course I didn't tell her yhat but the last 3 Halloweens weren't too great for me because my life was so drastically different. So I can't understate how special Halloween was to us. So her coming and basically saying she wants to spend the season with me this year is pretty big...even moreso because I made it abundantly clear that ALL of this stuff is predicted on R...and she didn't back out.

So we'll see what happens. Another surprising entry here in my seemingly endless thread in the ongoing WAW sequel currently in production. I'm happy I laid it out with her...biw she knows if she's in my presence it's because I have designs for her. The pal stuff has come to a final screeching halt with me. Knowing she knows that now, it'll be interesting to see where things go. As always, I'm down with whatever...because I know she can't stay away and I suspect she never would be able to now. Overconfident? Perhaps a bit...but I don't have anything to lose this time because after all, I already technically lost her 4 1/2 years ago and I'm still here L-I-V-I-N'!
Que sera sera...that's right.

IH, glad you got that out of the way

Now she knows 100% and without a doubt what you are wanting out of this. The problem is she doesn't know what SHE wants. Hopefully she'll figure that out. Good luck with the date, let us know how it goes!

On a side note, that is so aggravating that she lays that speech on you about not wanting to date and then turns right around to tell you about her latest date. I don't think I could have resisted the world's biggest eye roll.

On another side note, wow this dude barely meets her and tells her he has ED and she needs to be patient?????? Dear walkaway wives, THIS is what you have to look forward to out there in the dating pool! Enjoy!

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

On another side note, wow this dude barely meets her and tells her he has ED and she needs to be patient?????? Dear walkaway wives, THIS is what you have to look forward to out there in the dating pool! Enjoy!

THIS^^^^^^^^^^

The grass ain't always greener!

IH - I am so happy to read this update. Whatever happens with you and W is to be seen, but I am super pumped to read how you took charge and handled the situation and stopped the nonsense. Life is short for all the ridiculous drama and back and forth. Make up your mind or step off. Wish you all the best in whatever happens next.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

On another side note, wow this dude barely meets her and tells her he has ED and she needs to be patient?????? Dear walkaway wives, THIS is what you have to look forward to out there in the dating pool! Enjoy!

THIS^^^^^^^^^^

The grass ain't always greener!

I sooooooooooo have to agree and in fact said this to a friend of mine who has a friend who is newly D'd. I do not at all think she is a WAW (but can't yet be positive). She is only 4 months post D and about 15 post S. I guess none if this really matters to my point but she correctly is not yet ready to date and did not have an affair. While I applaud her in not dating when I ran across her and figured out she was the friend my friend had mentioned I became interested. So, here's my point, I recently told my friend I'd love to take her out or at least meet her when she's ready I added how I might be saving her from whats out there and how my friend as well as this lady have zero idea what it's like. Most people do not. It's hard to imagine if you've never expierenced it. I think if more people knew what we knew they would fight tooth and nail to save their M.

Haha yes indeed I did react even better than the world's biggest eye roll when she told me about that date haha. That's why I told her she's wasting her time...she's not going to find me in anyone other than...well...ME! I was just shocked that there was no opposition from her like there usually was. It was almost like she had this unspoken and newfound acceptance of the fact that she might want to R. As I said it's so damned difficult to put in words such an intangible sense I get from her but SOMETHING happened that opened her eyes a bit more...that's the only way I could describe it. It just seems to me that after I had it out with her about the nonsense and that i think the writing is on the wall as to what she should be doing at this point; that she didn't at all try and back out of this date. That, to me, is affirmation that she has accepted my now-clear intentions and is willing to move forward in that respect. I just wish I knew what the hell it was that finally lit the light bulb in her head. There was just something different about her...she didn't try to shoot down anything I said...instead she had an attitude of being open to it now. Something left me with the sense that R is on her mind as a possible now...whatever happened to trigger this in the past two weeks since I last heard from her is unknown...but something was markedly different about her demeanor this time.
In any case, she knows what my intentions are now.

I,

I think its because you acted like alpha and were direct and to the point and she was able to submit to you which is a feminine quality.

No going back on your word now. Reconciliation or bust my friend.

Yup...that could be it LH. I really was fed up. It's like you come here to basically hint around that you want to spend time with me for the Halloween season...well it's not happening until the elephant in the room is addressed. I basically told her it's so pathetically obvious that she should not be wasting time dating and instead put that energy into her and I getting back together. That this hanging out crap was just stupid. That's it's obvious you can't go two weeks without me now. So you could be right. All I know is she had plans to try and get me and her to hang out for Halloween well before she got to my work. Just the way she brought up the pumpkins and explained what her plan was (where we would buy them, etc) demonstrated to me that she had this planned out.
It was one of those "I was thinking that we could..." kind of things. Not something she thought up right then and therem it's like she told herself if I get him to see the movie with me then maybe I'll ask him to carve pumpkins another day too.
She had a plan for sure.

Oh and there's no going back on my word because the minute she starts opposing me and possible R is the moment I'm basically going to tell her then we don't hang out anymore. Go on with your life because I can never truly be just your friend. It's romantic or it's nothing. However as I said something tells me she's not going to oppose me but who knows...only time will tell and all that matters is I have a solid plan of action in either case. I am prepared to walk forever if need be.

Shut down the friend zone!

Exactly Steve...I just added another paragraph to my previous post saying exactly that as you were typing your reply.

Originally Posted by ItHurts

I just wish I knew what the hell it was that finally lit the light bulb in her head. There was just something different about her...she didn't try to shoot down anything I said...instead she had an attitude of being open to it now.

Well we really don't know, but based on your recent posts I can see this as a scenario- she sees you and starts having feelings again, but she's not sure she wants to go there given the history. Decides to try another "date" just to see where her heart really is. Date crashes and burns in glorious fashion leaving her options extremely limited. In essence, she painted herself into a corner and now she realizes that if she keeps pushing you away that even THAT option may disappear soon. The crying was probably a release of frustrations and emotions over the whole thing. I imagine she's still confused a bit, but is starting to have some clarity of mind. I wouldn't be surprised if you posted after your date that you had some wild sex together. We'll see

I love these updates, IH! You are demonstratong strength and confidence and letting her know clearly what you want and don't want. We are all rooting for you!

Blu

Thanks so much guys! Yeah this is all surreal to me...the stuff that made frequent appearances in my dreams over the years. R with WAW even being discussed. It's surreal. It was all so, so long ago. So long ago after she left I sat there...in our apartment home for 17 years that was suddenly a dungeon with empty walls that once displayed our many photos and memories, and moving boxes everywhere. I was alone in deep, deep, despair. This was my beloved home just a few weeks ago...now it's all blown apart. The future was nothing to me...there was no future for me without her. However, as is everything in life...the years just FLY BY. Time doesn't care if you're balling yourself into glorious unconsciousness feeling nothing but intense, powerful despair. But it's true...life keeps going and time feels like it's flying by just like it always has. Now I'm here 4 years later (and several other lifetimes later it feels like with all that's happened since she left, girlfriends, family deaths)...it's weird. So you guys with fresh bomb drops, continue to cry yourselves to sleep if you have to, whatever it takes to make another day pass, because you never, never, NEVER know what this crazy life will unfold for you down the road. You'll live a completely different life. That post-bomb life is what gives you your strength back...and that strength is what just might attract your ex back down the road. Most importantly however, that strength gets you to a place where you are very aware you can survive just fine without WAW. She will merely now be a want, not a need.

Now I'm a long ways away from considering an R with my WAW a sure thing...but from here on out if she wants to enjoy my presence it's going to be on my terms...not hers. So trust me newbies, it just won't hurt so bad anymore one day...I remember my dark days well...and now I look back and realize that this life goes by so, so fast. Another reason why I decided it was time for WAW to either get back with me or take a walk...I don't have precious time to waste and I don't want to be single forever. I'm fairly confident she is on the same page with me now...but you just never know so I'm ready for anything.
So I'm putting this one to bed and sticking a fork in it... regardless of how the story will end. One way or another I'm ending it soon... either she and I get back together and move on together or she continues with this absurd "doubt" she has/had and I'll tell her I'm done and we are going our separate ways.

IH, agreed you shouldn't be jumping the gun. But I can't help think what a great position you will be in long-term if you guys do R. Think about it, she's already seen the other side and realized that it isn't what she had built it up to be in her head! I believe that if you do R, you will have a deeply devoted W moving forward, not wanting to chance losing what she almost lost once.

I�m glad to read the news IH. I agree you did a great job when meeting XW. My advice is that you should be cautious. You know, XW knew exactly where she was going with that R talk...I think women are way smarter than men on R items...

Take care of expectations, protect yourself and stand the way you did.

Our best wishes go for you IH. We are all team ItHurts here!

Thanks guys.
So today I texted her and told her where we're going to dinner and where we're seeing the movie and what time I was picking her up. She replied with "Awesome! I'll be ready! I'm excited! Also thrilled I'm going with you.

"
So it looks like it's still a go for us Saturday night.

IH, you've become my hero. And me thinks she'll be, umm, spending the night afterward.......

Just sayin,.....

Hahahaha I don't know about all that Steve my friend but I definitely feel something is really different about her. I don't know what the hell happened since the last time I talked to her two weeks ago but she is acting so very different now. Even her reply today was exceptionally enthusiastic. I guess we'll see what happens.

Well never understand their minds. Good luck IH. I hope it works out for you and Saturday night goes great.

Got a text from her about an hour ago saying "OMG I'm so excited to see be the new movie!"
I replied with, "I'm glad. It's going to be an awesome time and we're going to have so much fun!"
So I don't think we have to worry about her flaking on this date so far.

IH,

The friend zone ends Saturday night!

Your success will do wonders for the newbies on the board. No pressure lol!

Good luck.

Haha let's hope you're right LH so I can finally end this saga! I can't see how she would still want to go given all I said to her last Saturday unless she is open to something happening. I left her no wiggle room as far as that friend crap goes...and she is still immensely excited.

WHAT HAPPENED?!?!?!?!

Originally Posted by Steve85

WHAT HAPPENED?!?!?!?!

So you want to know about how the movie ends Stevie? Do we have to put an Spoiler Alert here?

Uh?

What happened? C�mon!

LOL

IH, we are waiting!!!

Steve give him a break...he can barely walk to his computer. :P

I heard the Halloween movie was pretty lame, but who cares right, all we really want to know was how the date went ... I am going to be checking this thread all day waiting for an update too ... #teamIHforthewin !!!!

Yes we are waiting!

Imagining the scene from 40 year old virgin where it finally happens!

I take it this is the most action most of us have got in a while?

Hey guys,
Okay so I picked her up and we went to dinner. Everything went well. We got to the movies and she held my arm walking in. Once inside she grabbed my arm a couple times when she got scared. When we used to watch the movies I would always grab her or bump her quickly to scare her. She tried to do this to me a couple times but of course failed miserably LOL!

So after the movie we drive back to her place. She invites me in because she wanted to show me something. So now this is where I told myself it's the moment of truth.� Once we got inside she turned off all the lights in the place and turned on this thing that projected stars on the walls and ceiling. I said it was super cool and she said she just knew I'd like it. We used to like cool things like that. So we talked about the movie a bit which was always what we did after seeing a new Halloween...we always called it "digesting the movie." After awhile she complained about some neck pain. So I seized the moment and started massaging her neck. Eventually I worked my way until I had her shirt pulled all the way down exposing her whole back to me.�I massaged her for a bit. MAN I was so tempted to reach around to the front side but I decided to wait until I tried to kiss her first later before I tried to get sexual.
She asked me if I wanted to watch the original 1978 Halloween on demand. It was already like 3AM and I didn't want to create what I call a "pow wow" experience so I declined and said I had to get going. Plus I was anxious to go in for the kill with the goodnight kiss and put an end to this thing one way or another.
So as I was leaving she thanked me and hugged me and when she went to kiss me I attempted to extend it beyond a lame peck that she has given before. The kiss was a bit longer but not at all what I had set my standards at beforehand. It was enough though where she clearly knew I wanted more so in that respect anyway it was a success but I still consider the kiss lame and she flunked my test.
So I said goodnight and left.
Driving home I now began to make my plan of breaking off seeing her anymore because I had preciously decided that that kiss was going to determine my next course of action. Since the kiss was pretty lame my decision was made. I'm done and now I have to figure out how to tell her.
So I slept on it. The next day, yesterday, she asks me how I slept. �I told her good. She said, referring to us carving pumpkins for Halloween, that Halloween was a Wednesday and it would have to be an early night for her. She also said she thinks it's important we talk. I asked her about what? She said our friendship. I said what about it? Then she said she was on her way out to the grocery store and asked where in was. I answered her and as of this moment I haven't heard back from her.
So who knows what she wants to talk about but I am pleased that this conversation we're going to have is where I am going to tell her I am not interested in just being friends with you...AT ALL! It's unacceptable to me. So I think we need to stop seeing each other. If the day comes where you want to explore reconciliation then look me up and if your timing is right we can talk about it. But until then I'd prefer we go back to just living our lives without each other in them.

I'm not sure when this conversation is going to take place yet but it is going to be said. Now I'm assuming what she wants to talk about is that she iust wants to be friends because that's what my gut is telling me the reason is she wants to have this talk. I certainly don't think it's because she decided we should get back together. My reason for thinking that is because if that was the case I would think when I asked her what she wanted to talk about she would have replied with something like "us" or "you & me" and not "our friendship." Either way I'll find out what's on her mind and it will be during this conversation that I tell her this is it... this is the last time I want to meet with you unless you want to explore reconciliation. Anything less than that I'm not interested at all.
So that's it guys, a failure. The positive is that I now am pretty sure where I stand with her...pending this talk she wants to have. Not the ending we were hoping for here but it's an ending nonetheless...again depending on whatever it is she wants to talk about. But if she pulls the friend crap again...it's going to be a short conversation and I'm sending her out to pasture once and for all. She's taken up enough of my time and energy and I'm not wasting anymore on her.
I'll keep you posted on when I hear from her again regarding her text yesterday. I still haven't heard back from her so I am clueless as to what's going on in her head but I would imagine she's going to contact me again since yesterday's text was left up in the air like that.

P.S.- I'm actually headed over to her Mom's now to help her with her computer.

You should have went for it during the massage.

I'm with J on this one.

IH, not a failure. No way I will not let you categorize it as such.

Look at where you are at. You went from BD to D 4 years ago. To her contacting, you wanting to be around you, hanging out with you. Even agreeing to a date (this past Saturday). If 4 years ago I would have told you that she was going to invite her into her place, turn out the lights and let you massage her neck and back, and even kiss you (even if lamely) good night, you would have told me that I was an idiot of epic proportions.

So no, this isn't a failure. I tend to agree with you regarding what she wants to say. Rarely do women say "we need to talk" about "our friendship" if they are interested in moving things forward. Every woman I've ever had a relationship with made it clear through their actions, especially their kisses, about what their intentions were. Only time they wanted to talk was when they weren't where I was.

My W was both. At first I got friend-zoned. She'd peck kiss me goodnight. Every action was her letting me know that it wasn't going any further. Whether it was her hugs, or sitting close to me but not touching me, etc. We had "a talk" one night on the phone (she lived about an hour away) about how she wasn't completely over her ex-bf and not ready to move on with anybody yet. Blah blah blah.

The next week she came to stay with me and was going to meet my brother and SiL, and that morning got up and left, drove back home an hour. I completely pulled back at that point. She called that night saying she had thought about things and wanted to take things slow but did want to try. I was like "whatever". I was pretty much done.

The next weekend she came back down and attended a family event with me. Privately to some of my female cousins she said "we were just friends". This got back to me and now I was really done.. I didn't answer her calls that week. Didn't call her back. Started to move on. The next weekend I was in my cousin's wedding. At the family event the week before he had invited her to the wedding, but I was going to go stag. In fact, there was another girl attending the wedding that was very interested in more with me, so I was going to spend time with her getting to know her during the day.

I went to the rehearsal dinner that Friday night and then we took my cousin out. Nothing big but bowling and karaoke. Just a typical Christian bachelor party. When I got home to my apartment that night, my now wife was sitting in her car in the parking lot, and had been there for hours. I asked her what she was doing there. She said "xxxxx invited me to his wedding last week, so I am attending." I told her "you know I have to leave early in the morning tomorrow to be there all day, so you won't be able to ride with me or anything." She was okay, but I could tell something was different. She slept very closely to me that night. I got up and left early for the wedding. She came to the church about the time the wedding started. After the wedding at the reception she never left my side. That night when I kissed good night, she pulled me in for a deep, long kiss. It was obvious she was amping things up.

She left Monday morning for work. That day I got a half dozen red roses delivered to my office from her.

The point is that when she wanted to "talk" it wasn't good. When she was ready for more she made it clear in no uncertain terms. So I think you are reading this right.

My advice? Preempt it. When she is ready to talk start by saying "Look, I said I would do this until either of was with someone. Then I told you I wasn't interested in friendship, but you don't seem to be open to more. So this has to end here, unfortunately. I never wanted a D, I never stopped loving you, when you came back I thought there was a chance for us to make things right and get back together. You seem to want the friend side of me but not the lover side, and that is a non-starter for me. I'd be glad to stay in touch occasionally just to catch up, but no more Halloween movies, and pumpkin carvings, etc for us. That part of our relationship is apparently in the past."

Definitely throw in the part about if she ever changes her mind, and the timing is right (IE you haven't met someone else) then let you know.

IH, its all good my friend. Not the desired outcome but now you know.

Steve, I am going to disagree with you about IH preempting the conversation. Let her talk and see what she says. And then calibrate your response. I always like to have more information than less, even if it's going to $uck. Let her talk and then respond. That would be my take.

I wonder if she set her response to you not staying? She could have had the same mindset you did, except maybe staying over was her baseline. Its possible that in her mind she figured if it ended in a night of passion that was her sign, and if you left that was a different sign.

Originally Posted by Maika

Steve, I am going to disagree with you about IH preempting the conversation. Let her talk and see what she says. And then calibrate your response. I always like to have more information than less, even if it's going to $uck. Let her talk and then respond. That would be my take.

I agree.

If a girl invites you in her house, she says her neck hurts and then you start to massage combined with lifting her shirt up.....I learned the hard way when I first started dating again....YOU GO FOR IT!

I'd agree with you for just about every sitch except IH. I think he should be the one in control in this case, and not come across as being at her mercy. If it were 4 1/2 years ago before their D, then yes I'd agree. At this point he has nothing to gain by listening and validating. He's been down that road with this woman before

IH,

I am really confused how you get into these intimate situations without making a move. You had absolutely nothing to lose at this point.

Now you guys are going to talk about the friendship? puke

Why do we all feel so comfortable weighing in our opinions on what IH coulda/shoulda/woulda done differently? Poor guy. None of us are or have been in his position. ... But while we are, I will weigh in mine :-) Look, none of us were there with them. I am sure when he was massaging her he could sense that she was not open to advances. If she was, I am sure he would have gone for it. Duh! She was most likely guarded in some way and he picked up on that. Why would he "go for it" and risk making things awkward or putting himself in the position to get rejected. IH, you did good, brother You knew it wasn't the right time.

I do agree that when someone tells us "we need to talk," it is not usually an indication they want more. Think about it, if she did, he would have sensed that on the date. And she would be throwing out signs left and right, flirting, and already trying to make plans. She is guarded again. This also is a unique sitch because they have such a long history. I am not surprised she is moving at such a snails pace. She knows that once she jumps (back into any R at all) she cannot hit rewind. She also knows that she could blow it and potentially lose this friendship. Now while she will lose it anyways (you don't want that), it's clear that this friendship is very important to her.

I trust that you will handle this well, even without the advice from all of us rookies! Lol.

Blu

Okay let me explain something about my WAW. When it comes to sex, she makes herself very clear. At this point she knows where I'm at. So I didn't reach around and grab her breasts becuase I knew it would end badly if I did. I didn't necessarily want a bad parting with her. I knew at the end of the night when I tried to kiss her if she wanted sex she would DEFINITELY have made out with me as that's always been her biggest turn on...kissing, not massages. The massage was meant, in my head, to be a prelude to the kiss which if she kissed me, would definitely have led to the sack. I know for sure if i had tried anything at that point of the massage things would have gotten ugly quick. The kiss was my best shot...if she didn't make out with me then she didn't want sex...that's it. So I found out the exact same thing without the drama.
Also rereading my update I missed a big point. She DID actually say I could stay over...and crash on her couch!!! Hahaha what?!! SCREW...THAT! No way was that happening again. There was absolutely no suggestions or hints that she wanted to be intimate with me at any point...and that includes the back massage. Every time I worked my way close to the front of her she would pull away a little bit. She DEFINITELY didn't want me to go beyond a certain point. So believe me, I was cognizant of what was happening and the situation at hand but there's no doubt in my mind that she would have refused. Also the couch remark in itself told me all I needed to know. So you're right the massage was an opportunity to test the water in a normal situation; but in this case I already knew the water temperature.

You have to understand, things like turning out the lights was NOT a hint on her part. We always liked to sit in the dark with lava lamps, candles, etc. In fact people would call us vampires because our place was always dark. It's not like in the movies where she glided over to the light switch batting her eyelashes at me suggestively while slipping over to the couch with me. It wasn't like that although I can see why you guys would take that as a hint of sorts on her part. But to her and I turning off the lights was a normal thing like turning on the television is no others. Just because someone turns on the television doesn't mean they want to watch a movie and get sexual. The light thing is akin to that with us. It wasn't some romantic overture. So keep that in mind...we always sat in the dark when we were married and created what we called "ambience." In fact that's what she called it that night. It wasn't in a romantic context. So this is why it's not as "intimate" as it understandably may seem to people.

Now about the conversation she wants to have. Yes my plan is to hear her out, explain my side of things and set the course of action at that point. If she pulls the friends card again then that's it guys. I am SOOO done with her. Enough is enough. She can find someone else to carve pumpkins with. I am so sick of this crap from her and I am bored senseless with her because of it. It's becoming a chore to even see her and I would rather just shoot this thing dead and be done. So we'll have to see what she says now because it's strange she hasn't replied yet. Something is going on in her head and my suspicion is that she knows if she insists on friendship that I am done and I'm not sure she wants me to go again for good. But she's not changing my mind. Im going to tell her once again very clearly that we BOTH moving towards reconciliation or nothing...and I'm also going to tell her if you say we are moving towards reconciliation then I expect far more than useless kisses. Iwant tongue or nothing LOL! Seriously I've had it with her...I am not holding back on saying these things to her. I'm sick of this, I'm losing interest in even reconciling with her actaully...and that's not a good sign on my end. I want action now...she's had plenty of time to figure this out. It's time to crap or get off the toilet.
I will make it clear that means don't come popping into my work anymore, don't text, don't do ANY of that unless it's to tell me you want to try again. That's it. I've had it with this situation and her. She needs to just shoo shoo and go away if she's not going to deliver the goods.

Does it have to be all or nothing - at least right now? I totally hear you and can support that if ALL she wants is friends that you can't and won't do that. That's fine. But it's not either friends or full on reconciliation - is it? I mean, can't you just start to date her like you would anyone else? You'd not tell some other woman after the first date - look either we are working towards a real relationship here or we are done. You'd never do that. So why do it now? And to add to why NOT to do it now is she is scared. I'm sure that's the most of it. She is less afraid of trying with you than you think. She's mostly afraid of it failing or her getting hurt. Can't you have some level of patience with her? Clearly if ALL she can do is friends, then you have to set your boundries, but give her a bit of time to ease into this. She already took a step in that direction. She might be willing to continue exploring it without having to tell you "yes let's try to get back together again" Why don't you just tell her that you need the two of your to date - as in real dates.

Well Don my main answer to your points is this...I don't think she truly considered it a date. That's my issue. I can say it is but that means nothing...she has to see it that way too. So what I am saying is that if she thinks me taking her out is just a couple friends hanging out then no... absolutely and positively not. In other words, if she DID see it as a date proper, then to me that technically IS her "working towards R"...with R defined as an all new relationship with me. In that case then yes, you are saying what I've been saying all throughout this drama...that I am willing to be friends for a bit SO LONG as that's not the end goal, that needs to be the start of something, not an end to something.
So that's what I mean by my sternness. I'm saying that if I get her to come out and say that essentially R is not an option to her and that she just wants to be friends forever then that's not gonna work for me. If she says she wants to be friends FOR NOW and continue DATING (proper) then I'm all in. Hope this clarifies.

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