Trying to keep the faith - DivorceBusting.com

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Hi

I've been following some of the threads on here and I think, hope I've come to the right place.

My H and I have been together 16 years, married 14. We have 2 daughters, 8 and 12. BD was about 10 months ago ("I am not happy", "I don't know why", "I don't think we can change", "I don't love you the way I use to").

I now know he was unhappy before BD because he started to change.

- He went on holidays without the family (2 stag dos a week each, 1 to catch up with his friend, and another to attend a wedding abroad) in the space of 12 months
- He was going out more (it use to be once every few months up to twice a month)
- He started becoming irritable
- He started to not be present (he had a better relationship with his phone then with his family
- He became obsessed with going to the gym (two to three hours a day)
- He bought a VERY expensive car without consulting anyone
- He got a hair transfer and his teeth whitened
- He was irritable and starting fights
- He was about to turn 40.

Anyway, round about October last year, I brought all this up, I cried, he cried, we held each other, and we promised we would try and do better. Then came the worst two weeks of my life. He started to distance himself fully. He started to sleep on the extreme edge of the bed. He started to walk the long way round rooms to avoid me, leave the room or look down on his phone to avoid catching my eye. He started sleeping really really late and then staying in bed in the morning. Anything to avoid a conversation.

I convinced him to attend MC. We lasted three sessions, in which he raged at all my faults and rewrote our history. T. If I tried to defend myself, he would say "see, she's starting to shout", so I didn't. I just sat and listened, my memories of us; the reasons we became a couple in the first place, the night he proposed, our wedding day, the days we discovered we were pregnant, burning in flames around me, Eventually he said it was a waste of my money (I was paying for the sessions) and that all it did was force him to articulate his feelings, and all I did was cry. He said it was making things worse. At the same time, the MC contacted me and said she wasn't right for us. He had kept cancelling and re-arranging at the last minute and she wasn't able to offer that level of flexibility. So, that was that.

The next few months were terrible. He would avoid, sneer or belittle me. He was home even less, when he was home he was at the gym. I started to make myself smaller and smaller.

I remember thinking at the time, who is this man who is never home, and when he is, he is either not present, or he is angry. I read in one of these threads the mention of 'replaced by an alien' and then realised that is what it felt like. An alien full of anger and spite.

We had agreed at Christmas that he should move out, we would tell the kids a few weeks before so they would not feel abandoned and it needed to be two bedrooms so the children would feel that there was room for them in his life. This took some time but he eventually moved out in March. He found a two bedroom flat nearby and spent about three weeks getting it ready. It was heartbreaking watching him build a new home. He bought wall stickers for the childrens bedrooms, art for the walls, rugs and cushions. I had taken all the pictures of him and us down and he took these with him. When I visited about a week later (to pick up the kids) he had taken our pictures out of the frames and put the empty frames up. I cried when I got home. At the time I thought it was heartless. But I think he was only doing what he thought he should be doing.

So far, so MLC, right?

This is the part where it starts to diverge from typical MLC behavior. He has become, over the last six months the father I had always wanted him to be. When he has the children (which is frequent), he spends time with them. He takes them to the movies, ice-skating, dinner, parks. He even sent me pictures of the three of them putting face masks on. I spoke to him (one of the few R talks we have had) soon after he moved out, he said that he knows what is important now. He is re-prioritising. D8 said about a month after he moved out that she sees more of daddy now but not as much of me. This hurt. I have not changed. I am still here. Doing what I have always done.

His re-prioritisation does not extend to me. We are still awkward and unsure around each other. We are trying, I think, to be kinder to one another, without giving the other any indication of hope (him to me) or longing (me to him). But every now and then I see the sneer threaten to come out, the flash of anger when he doesn't get his way. He pays more attention to our dog then he does to me. He still walks the long way around the room. He will give everyone a hug and a kiss, even the dog, when he arrives or leaves and then give me an awkward "hi".

That's the backstory. Where are we today.

My children are away with my ILs. This is the first time they have been away without us as we had always felt they were too small to go away without one of us. My H and I had been waiting for the day that they could go away with my ILs so that we could have time together. Instead, he is in his flat (I think) and I am in this big house alone. We have not spoken other than a few children related texts two weeks.

My H has mentioned separation order once since he moved out. I said if that is what he wanted I would not stand in his way. But I would engage a solicitor to review it for me because I wouldn't be able to look at it rationally. He raged a bit, said I was wasting money again, actually the words were "you are taking thousands of dollars away from the childrens inheritance and I will tell them that you did that when they are older", and stormed out. He has not mentioned it since.

So, why am I here. In reading some of the threads I sense people come here because they want to save their marriages. Those that respond, and there have been some beautiful responses in other threads, offer encouragement and guidance. So many of the sites I first encountered when this happened were full of anger and spite and in reading them I became angry and spiteful. That is not the person I want to be. I am moving towards acceptance but need some prodding along the way. My marriage is a good one and I truly believe that my H and I love one another. He is (or was - I think the fog is lifting slowly) depressed and made some poor decisions whilst in the eye of the storm. I know this is a long journey and today, I am willing to walk it.

Jen

Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

Hi FlySolo,

I can see how you'll find many similarities between your situation and the others on this forum! I for one can relate well. It's hard to describe the pain when you get cut out of your own husband's life, especially when you see him being loving and caring towards others. Did you try doing 180's or making long-term changes to the areas where you feel you could be better? Not that your husband left due to your actions....it sounds like this is something he's dealing with that's based on his own unhappiness in life. Perhaps though everyone will benefit as you go through your own journey of being the best you can be. No matter what it's hard living with the uncertainty that separation brings. I truly hope yours will be one of the success stories. In my case my husband also went through those same changes but they were ultimately due to him having an affair and feeling he missed out on having fun in his life. That would be one other consideration in your case - whether your husband was dating someone else or whether his behavior was due to an affair.

Hi Nicole

Thank you for coming back to me. Yes - I feel the similarities between my situation and that of others on this site. I also like the way you all encourage one another to keep our chins up. This path is not easy and it is good to hear encouragement.

I think my husband and I pretty much went by the playbook post BD. I switched between angry harpy, calling him all sorts of names to to begging and pleading and telling him I love him all within the same breath. Mean while he recoiled at my touch or, in midst of calling him names would say "see, this is why we can't be together". He saw me breaking down and seemed to fault me for being week.

Did I 180? I guess I did even though I didn't know that was what it was called. Initially I did it for him to prove that change was possible - one of the things he kept saying was "we can't change" - and then once he had moved out, for me, to fill the void. During MC when he was listing all my faults I mentally listed them down and then tried to change. Some things have stuck, like going to the gym, and others have fallen by the wayside. I gave up smoking and then started again after three months (christmas, a particularly terrible time for ones family to be falling apart). Those things were for him and no for me.

More recently I have stopped pursuing him. I don't call or text unless it is children based and I don't initiate R talk EVER. I try not to let him see how sad I am. This means we speak less and some of the tender moments I was able to get from him (reassuring cuddle or an I love you reluctantly given) don't happen anymore. I fear he may think I am adjusting to things and moving on. I am not. Every time I see him, I want to shake him and say "come home".

Am I getting a life. Bit by bit. He still invades my thoughts. I am trying to gain control over when those thoughts come. I cannot avoid them, so I make time for them. Like typing out this reply. I also started to keep a journal. I hope by restricting my thinking of him to specific times, I am more able to live in the present at other times. There is a part of me that worries that by writing things down I create a narrative and am in someways feeding them. Other things: going to the gym, going on holidays on my own (when he takes the kids on holidays), going out to dinner with girlfriends, going out for drinks with work colleagues. I have to admit that some of it still feels forced.

The dreaded affair thing. I know that he was not having an EA or a PA when he left. Now, I really don't know. I try not to think about it. At the start I listened to the wrong people. They said he must be having an affair. I did what everyone does - did google searches, asked friends to see if he was on various dating profiles, checked his bank statements - and all this did was make me angrier. The only thing was the odd local hotel when he said he was away for work. At the time I was sure it pointed to something, but looking back, it was more about him not wanting to come home, then him wanting to spend a night in a hotel with someone. And, today, 6 months separated, he does not act like a man having an affair. He wants to spend every hour he is not working with his children. His flat is full of photos of them. There are toys everywhere.

Journaling ...

Today, H popped around to take our dog for a walk, This is the first time I've seen him in two weeks. He was dropping his car off at a garage near by and thought he'd take our dog for a walk. He wasn't expecting me to be home. He came in, we exchanged pleasantries, and then he took the dog for a walk, came back, we exchanged more pleasantries and then he left. We still do not look each other in the eye when we talk. He asks me lots of questions about what I've been up to the last two weeks. which I responded to pleasantly but without adding too much detail. He did not offer, and I did not ask, what he has been up to.

I am going out with a few of the moms tonight for a meal, I am going to try and have a good time and not be sulky and sad.

Thanks
Clarissa

Sorry you are here Flying Solo.

It sounds like you are handling things about as well as you can. I liked the way you described the interaction - answer his questions pleasantly but not in detail, and don't ask him anything, just validate. I would just say that he really shouldn't be dropping by the house unannounced if he isn't living there. My wife and I have a schedule for her to visit the dog, so that she won't just "accidentally" run into me.

In terms of him invading your thoughts, that will happen. It's hard but the trick is to acknowledge the thoughts, hold them lightly and let them pass. Ignoring them or burying them doesn't work, but neither does letting yourself get swept up in the emotions, and the cheeseless tunnels of repeated thoughts. It's a delicate balance that I am still struggling with myself. Journaling can also be good. Some days are going to be better than others, but you will find with time that the thoughts lessen. I also will focus on my breathing to bring myself back to the present moment.

Worrying about him having a R with someone else is a cheeseless tunnel. Right now your relationship is over, and you need to let him go. His actions are beyond your control and worrying about them does nothing to help your state of mind or your sitch.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

I'm new here also, but it's kind of strange to see so many people in the same situation. My W and I have been together for 17 years, married 15. We have 2 daughters, 8 and 12. I hope that both of us get the resolution we seek, but I do know that I'll be a better man for this.

Davide - thank you for your kind words. I am trying not to go down the cheeseless R tunnel (the metaphore is very fitting) for that way madness lies. It is hard to avoid though. Particularly when you're on your own, which these days, I am often. Oh, how I use to wish for time to myself.

My H still considers this his house. At the start he use to drop by all the time and just take things. Mostly spare things we didn't use anymore but it use to get to me. These were things I had picked out and bought. I eventually asked him to ask first, and to give him his due, he hasn't taken anything since. He now only comes round when he has the children and I am at work. The kids prefer being here than at his flat so we've agreed that that is OK. He wasn't expecting me to be home on Friday, so I expect he probably does still drop by without the kids - but I can't really prove it. I get the sense as time goes by he will drop by less and less as he feels less like this is his home.

Harvey - you are right. When I started reading the various threads they all sounded familiar. I didn't really put much stock in mid life crises, thinking it was just a clich� we use to tease men with red sports cars. But the last year and reading this site in particular has made me believe it is real and that belief helps me to hold on for the day he comes out of it.

D12 is going through a life transition. Moving from child to teenager. She is learning who she is. I sense her detachment. Most of the time, noting I say or do (I am her mum after all) is right. People don't think it is at all strange when I say "I guess I'll just have to hang in there until she's 18 and comes out of it", yet, when I tell people I have not given up on my H, they look at me as if (and sometimes say) I'm mad and how could I put up with him. I would not give up on my daughter. Why would I give up on my marriage. I believe my daughter will come out of her transition a fuller person. My relationship with her post transition, will depend on my reactions during her transition. If I act with kindness and patience, obviously setting boundaries a long the way, then our relationship will be stronger. I hope the same of my H. And if not, I hope, like you, Harvey, that I am a better person for having gone through this.

Taking Davides advice and doing some journaling ....

I went out with my girlfriends on Friday night (after the unexpected visit from H) and it actually went really well. Most of the conversation was around our kids but there was laughter and some of it from me wasn't even forced . I met them at the school gate when D12 was 3 so we have known each other a long time. There was live music which was really good but was there more for ambience and background noise then the main event. They all commented how much better I looked, apparently I use to look like a shell of myself immediately post BD and now have colour some back and have put weight on. I feel much lighter physically and emotionally and their saying so was a little validation of this. We are planning on going to a comedy night next month which I am looking forward to.

I started to come down with something over the weekend. I had lots planned, mostly errands and such, but had to put them aside in favour of sitting on the sofa and feeling sorry for myself. Luckily my kids are still away with my ILs so I could be pitiful in peace. Normal levels of pity when your sick, not my H has left me and my life is ****.

Work yesterday and now sitting at home waiting for my H to bring the kids back.

My birthday is next month so am planning a birthday party. My first in 20 years. I've been so busy with my career and being a mum that I have let 20 years pass. BD was just before my birthday last year and I think I need to celebrate how far I've come.

My kids have been back from their holiday away with my ILs for two days now and we have settled back into our routine. D12 seems a lot more chilled out then before she left which is a great. I think the being a 12 year old girl, starting high school and her father moving out has really taken its toll on her and being away with my ILs has meant she doesn't have to worry about school, about her parents, or the fact that she is growing up. She could just be a kid again, albeit, a kid who is turning into a teenager. Plus, my IL's spoil her rotten.

I caught up with a girlfriend for lunch today. She commented on how well I looked. I met her at the same time I met H all those years ago. We all worked together so she has known both of us for the entire length of our relationship. As friendships do, even good ones, over the years, we'd cut back on seeing each other to maybe twice a year. Since BD, she's really been there for me, so the meet ups have increased to maybe once a month

. Not a lot, but she works full time too and has three children of her own. Anyway, she commented on how much more relaxed I looked and said that I was starting to look more like the real me again. Small steps, but the validation is good. She also mentioned this is the first time since BD that we've managed to get through lunch without me crying. Wahoo, nearly a normal person who can sit through a meal without breaking into tears

I started painting again last night. A life long hobby that gets picked up every now and again (normally when I need to stop thinking) and then dropped. I haven't really done anything since BD because even painting wasn't stopping my thoughts from going round in circles. Now that I have better control over my emotions, I thought I'd start again. Noting major, a small landscape, but it has turned out OK. Not OK enough to show to anyone aside from family and friends, but it isn't bad. It is a fairly positive pic as well which is a change from the dark stuff I did after BD.

I haven't heard/seen from H since he dropped the kids off two days ago. This is not unusual. He normally rings in the evening on the house phone and D12 always picks up. He only really asks for me if there is something logistical that needs discussing, and to be fair, I only really ask to speak to him if I have something logistical I need to discuss with him. That I am calm with this is a big step forward from when he first moved out. Back then I use to get upset that he didn't want to speak to me. I'd never say anything to the girls, but it definitely use to get to me. Now, I'm just like, "oh well".

It all seems so very mature now - but it still hurts every now and then. It hurts now as I type this.

Its been a weird couple of days. I don't see my H for two weeks (albeit because the kids weren't here) and then I see him everyday since they've been back bar one,

On Friday he was scheduled to pick D12 and D8 from school and have them overnight. I sent him a friendly text during the day reminding him D8 had swimming the next day. I knew he would have to drop over to our house at some point to get the swimming kit so said, as I would not be home from work until after 7, that there was food in the fridge if he wanted to feed them. This isn't pursuing (I think). He works shift work and can be gone for days so often only buys food when he needs it otherwise it goes to waste. Plus, his flat is small and the kids prefer being at the house. He thanked me and said he would probably do that. When I got in they were still at home. I was going to meet some other mums for dinner, so asked if I could get a lift into town (he lives in the center of town, I live on the outskirts). He said yes, and then asked me lots of questions "who are you meeting", "where are you going" etc. Like last time, I was pleasant but not overly forthcoming.

When he dropped the children off on Saturday he stayed all afternoon and into the evening. D12 and I watched a movie, and he sat on the sofa reading the paper. He changed some bulbs, he looked at a toilet that wasn't flushing properly, he checked on some work we were having done in the garden, he took D8 to one of her clubs. He just stayed. Eventually, when it was time to sort out dinner, I asked if he wanted some. He stayed for dinner and eventually left around 8.

Today he called and said he was finishing work early and would be around to talk to D12 about her soccer match this morning. Soccer is a bit of a daddy daughter bond and he never misses a game if he can help it. He stayed for about two hours. Whilst he was here, I went to my room (I made a point of calling it my room) to meditate and do some yoga. When I came down, he was going through their school bags and grumbling that I hadn't emptied them and that there was homework that D8 hadn't done yet - o do her homework after dinner sunday night so that she can enjoy her weekend. He was back to the nit picky just before BD H. I think it was because I went up to my room but I am not sure.

So, my question is, why is he here all the time? He wanted all this space and now that he has it, be spends it here.He wasn't here at all whilst the kids were away for two weeks so I don't think it is because he misses me. And its not the girls because he isn't really spending time with them when he is here. He is just pottering around like before BD and the depression. Is it cake eating?

journaling .. actually more like venting today

My H dropped by yesterday morning when I was at work to pick up some clothes for D8 that she needed for school. I only know this because he called me up whilst he was at the house to tell me I had left a window open (urghh). I then came home last night to discover he had installed a camera outside our house. I had bought the camera months ago (before he moved out and he moved out 6 months ago) when our au pair crashed my car into the front wall. I had no proof at the time that she had done this, but as the rear bumper had a massive dent (apparently done outside D8s school) and the front wall was concaved inwards, we kind of figured she was lying. We couldn't prove it at the time, but I decided it was worth getting a camera for the front anyway. Well, as it happens we had to let the au pair go anyway and as things were a bit of a roller coaster between my H and I, the camera was put in a cupboard and forgotten about. Until it appeared on my front wall last night.

I am not sure if I should tell him that he a) shouldn't be dropping by whenever he feels like it and b) it is not his place to install cameras. Even worse, the camera link is to his phone and not mine. I do not know if this is him being extra vigilant (which it could be), him not liking an expensive gadget go to waste in a cupboard (again, very possible, he is extremely tight with money, or c) him wanting to keep an eye on me (again possible, as he has said he does not want me bringing "friends" around to the house).

I don't want to bring it up as we are getting on ok at the moment. Not two people in a relationship friendly, not even two people who are friends, friendly, but at least two people who don't look at each other with a mixture of contempt, sadness and fear. I think we have something that we can at least, for the time being, build a healthy co-parent relationship on and I don't want to rock that boat. So I am venting. I may just switch the camera off and not tell him ??

Also, his step dad is having a birthday party on Sunday. I am not invited as the venue only allows a max of 8 people, which covers H, D8, D12, MIL, FIL, SIL, BIL and my niece. Convenient for everyone, but leaves me a little left out. I do get on with his family, but it does seem that they are leaving me out of things now. I will have to wait for sunday when they all head over there and I am left on my own (again) to see how I really feel. Right now, it is disappointment that his family could let go so quickly. At least it's not anger.

Digressing a little ... one of the reasons he left was we had had au pairs for about 2 years prior to BD. No, it isn't the middle age / au pair affair that jumps into everyones mind. He said that when he was home he felt like he wasn't needed. The au pairs did everything for the girls and he had nothing left to do. He would be home during the day (he works shifts) and he felt like he couldn't be at home in his own home. This came out in marriage counselling, as in "and then YOU brought au pairs because YOU had wanted to work ". Why don't they tell us these things when its happening and not hold on to it until its too late. If he had said it I would have tried to change my work arrangements to be home more. After he left, I stopped having au pairs and I work from home more. This wasn't for him. For a period I couldn't make it into the office (I couldn't face people) and work offered my more flexibility.

It has been a while and I guess that's because things were going well. Not we are getting back together well but I had implemented the rules as well as I could and we seemed to be moving in a positive direction. I was getting on with my life in a positive, non destructive way and I felt that, although he felt further away, it would still work out. Little things - offers to drive me places, asking questions about what i was doing.

Well, that's ended now - I saw him with someone else. I was at dinner with a few of the mums and we decided to go to a club for a quick drink before going home. He was there and he admitted he is seeing her. I dont think its been going on for that long but you never know. I admit I didnt react well. I called him all sorts of names. I called her all sorts of names. He looked sad (normally he gets defensive and goes on the attack over the littlest things) and said "what do you want me to say". Eventually he walked out. I am not proud. I was shocked and i know that my behaviour was beneath me. After holding it in all these weeks - pretending all the time that im fine wheb inside i am an emotional wreck, it all came pouring out. When i got home I threw out and ripped every photo of us from before the children - holidays together, nights out with friends and every photo with just the two of us after the kids. I wanted to rip every memory of him out from our home. I drafted our seperation order.

That was two days ago. Yesterday he called to see if he could come around and see the children and I said we had plans - we did have plans but it was raining so we changed them and stayed indoors instead. He asked if he could come walk the dog. I said no, I would do it. When he called in the evening to speak to the girls and D8 asked if he needed to speak to me, he said no, I dont need to speak to mummy.

Two days later I am still hurting. I dont know if i can face him tomorrow when he comes to get the children.

Do i initiate the seperation order or do I make clear that, without any pressure, that I am still here and the door is still open. I know that our arrangements are to his advantage. He doesnt really give me much money - he covers about 20% of the costs - but if i force him down the legal route and he has to pay what he should, then am i just moving us one step closer to divorce?

Update

I called him to say i wanted to talk. He seemed reluctant at first but agreed we needed to clear the air. I know R talks are against the rules but i couldnt leave it the way it was. We agreed to meet at his flat before he came round to pick up the kids. Neither of us wanted to have the discussion in front of the children in case it turned angry or tearful.

I thought about what i wanted to say. I wanted to apologies for my behaviour. I wanted to tell him the door is still open even though i had no expectations of him coming back. And then i would go.

I made a pretense to the kids that I needed to pop to the shops and drove around to his flat. I said what I needed to say. He accepted the apology, said I was out of line but that he understood the reaction. He said that if the situation was reversed then he would have got upset and just left. He cant understand why i stayed and then tried to have a conversation. He said ok when I said I still loved him. I spoke to him a little about the journey that i am going through (there goes the mystery) and that it has been lonely but positive. He said ok again.

Then we held each other on the sofa. He said that he has been on a few dates with the girl and it is not serious and he hasnt slept with her. Apparently she came down on the train (an hour journey) and then went back kn the last train back. I dont know whether to believe him. I guess it doesnt matter. If he is telling the truth then, even if he is not serious about her, she is hoping for something serious from him. No-one travels an hour in and back for a few drinks unless you want something more.

Anyway, while he held me on the sofa we kissed. He pulled away and said that it was wrong and we shouldn't be doing things like that. Let me be clear - i have avoided physical contact (hugs, kisses) for months and months as well as any forms of familiarity (using pet names, banter). I have stuck to the rules and been all business. But i folded. I asked him if he still loved me "or course i do", i asked him if he still found me attractive "yes - does that make you feel better?", i asked him why he wouldnt kiss me "because it always leads to sex", i asked him of he remembered how much we loved each other and couldnt keep our hands off each other "yes, I've not suffered from memory loss. I remember all those things. Thats why i cant have casual sex with you". I pursued, i pleaded, i broke every rule.

My heart which was near mended ia broken all over again.

Don't lie to the kids, you really think they can't figure out what's going on?

Quote

He said ok when I said I still loved him. I spoke to him a little about the journey that i am going through (there goes the mystery) and that it has been lonely but positive. He said ok again. Then we held each other on the sofa.

WHAT???!!! Why? Totally cemented yourself as plan B. Then he tells you he's dating other women, either while or just after holding you. BUTTTTTT, it's ok b/c he hasn't slept with her. Yea sure. Did you even ask him that? Or did he just come out and say it? You shouldn't believe him either way.

I'm not going to act like I'm a perfect or great DB'er. All I can say is I feel your pain. I've been there and done that. I've started feeling better and then got sucked back in. Way in. That's why you stay detached and don't let yourself be emotionally invested again until they are really, really showing you their commitment. You need to have your own wall up to protect yourself. He is just not ready, and he may never be. And my W may never be ready either. And it really [censored] to say those things. So, focus on something you can control. Get out of the house and get active today, do something! Get your mind off the sitch for a while, truly. Don't go talking to someone about your pain, go "live your best life" (I hate that phrase!).

We all fall off the horse now and again, just get back on!

Hi FlySolo.

I am so sorry for what you are going through. Reading your posts is very helpful yet also painful as I know too well the kind of pain you are dealing with. I feel like we are in very similar situations although you are further along this process than me. I do not know if there is an OW or OWs in my sitch but I know it is a real possibility even though he swore on our children�s lives that there is no one else...just a confused and unhappy man. Please do not beat yourself up for the recent events. You are only human...your heart as been broken...you cannot do this DB perfectly...you can only pick yourself up off the floor and start over. I am anticipating that I will need to do this myself multiple times over the coming months.

Please know that you are not alone in this and there are many, many people pulling for you. And know there is, without a doubt, a better life ahead for you...just keep DBing. ((((HUGS))))

Thank you both for your reply. I know i am not alone with what I am going through and it helps that I can come here and talk.

The kids know what's going on. Their dad lives in a different home. We are, I think, both committed to minimising the disruption to their lives. In order to do this we need to be on an even keel when we are with them. if the first time we saw each other after the other night, then it would be awkward. I see a lot of similarities between my H and other spouses on this forum but the one difference I see is that I know he abandoned me, not the children. Dont get me wrong, in the six months preceding BD and the 6 months after he was a [censored] dad but as soon as he moved out he started to really prioritise them. He told me at the time it was because he realised what was important.

I know I shouldn't have, but I asked him if he was in a relationship with her. He said he didnt know. He'd seen only seen her 4 times. I assume this means about a month. I didnt ask about the sex. He came out with that on his own. Either not to hurt me or because he know i could file on grounds of adultery as he still officially lives on the house - he has not changed his address.

I had decided i would tell him i still loved him before i saw him. I can see where detaching is a positive and necessary thing, but it also gives the impression that we, the left behind, have given up on the marriage. I think its dishonest. I cant expect honesty if i am not being honest myself. So, i said it. I needed him to know the candle is still burning in the window. The initiating sex was pure weakness. I should have left once i had said my piece. But i kept talking because this was the closest we have been since this started. And that's when he came to hug me. An "I am still here for you when you're sad hug". I remembered how much i loved to be held by him. How safe he made me feel. And i crumbled. Has he alept with her. I dont know but i assume so. It doesnt matter. I know it is not about her. He is lonely and depressed and If it wasnt her it would be someone else.

On Sunday afternoons when he has the girls he normally takes the kids to his mums for Sunday dinner. He always asks if I want to go too. The last few times I've said no. I decided to go today. It was fine. We were normal. Like we were before bomb drop. We were nice to one another. Conversation was light. A stranger looking in would think we were a couple.

I am not saying this to indicate that telling him I still love him was a good idea or that he is changing his mind. It was just nice. The kids and i were even singing in the car when he drove me home.

Also .. A couple of other weird things ...

When I left him after the talk this morning I apologised for initiating sex (I know, but I was weak). He said he knew and he was flattered. I told him he should be because i am stunning. He looked me in the eyes and said "Yes, you are". He never looks me in the eye unless he is angry (then it is rage I see) and he never ever acknowledges that i am attractive.

I think i wrote about throwing out all the photos of us when I got home Friday night. I also took down one of those large picture murals from a family photo shoot about 8 years ago. I tried to break it with a hammer but turns out resin is impossible to destroy. I managed to damage a corner of it. It wouldnt fit in the bin so i left it in the garage to take to the tip this week. He has taken it without mentioning anything. It has a chipped corner and in the center is a large photo of the two of us surrounded by smaller pictures of the kids. Why take it?

There were a couple if other things today that makes me think his heart is still here, home with us. i intend to continue GALing and detaching, but days like today give me the strength to keep standing. A fools hope maybe, but hope nonetheless.

I am not sleeping again. 4 hours last night, 2 the two nights previous and not at all kn Friday night - the night I found out about other woman. I have not really eaten kn that time. It ia starting again - not eating, not sleeping and obsessing over him. I cant stop crying.

So, right now, at nearly 4 in the morning I am losing hope. Tomorrow is a new day though amd I will try and pick myself up and carry on. I have made an appointment at the doctors to get sleeping pills - if I cant sleep I cant function and if I cant function I cant work and i need to work, both for the money and for the distraction. I am going to try and force myself to eat even if every mouthful makes me want to vomit. I dont know how to fix the obsessing. I know it is wrong but he is al i think about.

So, I am going to write.

He had the children last night and after school today. He was supposed to drop them off at netball and i would pick them up after. But I had booked an appointment at the doctors to get a prescription for sleeping pills after work and asked him bring the girls home. When i got home told him i was taking the morning off work as i had an appointment. quick moment of panic on his face and the. he asked what for, i calmly said i needed to get sleeping pills as have not been sleeping. I wasnt trying to make him feel guilty. I just dont want to lie and play games. I think he was relieved tbh - when i said an appointment in town he prob thought i meant solicitor.

There was at least a few triggers this evening which a year ago would normally lead to him huffing at ne, berating ne or storming off. But tonight he made an effort to keep it in check.

- D12 asked what had happened to the family photo collage. I said I had taken down as I no longer like it - Queue lecture on my lack of sentimentality but nothing.

- he asked me how the pre boxed food is going (where u pick recipes from a catalogue and the company sends you the ingredients for a single serving)on - Queue lecture on wasting money - but nothing. Minor interest and then switch to next topic.

- We discussed the cost of D12 school trip (email came today) - normally discussion on any shared costs leads to huffing and eye rolling - but nothing.

At least when he was emotional it showed he was vested. When he would lecture me on wasting money (which i hated because it was my money to waste) it was because he saw it as our money. When he called me cold, it was because he wanted me to care about the same things he cared about. Now - i am just another person in his life. I know i am being irrational. He too is consciously detaching. I detach to save myself from the pain. He detaches to save me from the pain. But it stil hurts. I dont think, short of saying he wanted to come home, that there ia anything he could do that wouldnt hurt me. Be nice - it hurts me, be mean - it hurts me.

Enough wallowing: to practical matters. I drafted the separation order the other night, I just need to put the spreadsheet together with the numbers. I am wavering on whether to send it to a solicitor so that we can start the process. On the one hand he is seeing someone else and on the other I dont want to do anything rash (and obviously, reading the above, not in the right frame of nind) and I committed to standing. Deep down i dont want to separate and i know i would be doing it in the hopes it shocks him into realizing what he is giving up,

Do I or dont I?!?!

Hi FS.

Sorry to hear about your sleep issues. I had a night like that last night... i got maybe two hours but even those two hours were restless. It [censored]. And I hear you on the eating issues. Today was a better day for me in that regard as well.

I also relate to you wishing he would be angry instead of calm...as that might mean he cares more. I was worried about the same thing. Not sure if that is the case or not but if we are DBing the right way, I think the correct answer to that question would be... �who cares? It really doesn�t matter. Stop trying to mind read.�

Finding out about the OW is very hard and somewhat destabilizing so it makes sense that you would be feeling more emotional and desperate right now. The sooner you can get back to DBing, the better.

Re: the separation agreement. I don�t know what the right answer is but if it were me, I would not be going out of my way to help with it UNLESS I felt that it was necessary to protect myself financially or otherwise. If it is more his need than yours, I would let him do the work.

Anywat... that is what I would do. I�m sure some vets will be along to give you their more learned opinions. I hope you are able to get some sleep. Self care is very important right now. ((((hugs))))

Thank you DJV. I meant to reply on your sitch yesterday but time differences made it difficult. I am glad things look brighter. Again, vets here will give more meaningful advice but if it were me (and god how i wish it were) . I would let him initiate the conversations (it looks like he may be ready), listen to what he says, but at the same time proceed with caution. You want him back, that much is obvious, but you should do it on your terms. Know what you want and you havent been on your own long enough to do that (my opinion only). Build a friendship, talk, reconnect. Then, and only then think about letting him back into your life properly.

I worry about this detachment thing a lot, because from the outside it looks like I've given up on us and am merrily building a life without him. I know it was, and will help me heal, but it always felt (feels) like i am pushing him away. In of his issues with me is that i am emotional detached. He said i didnt feel anything. So, to him, my pulling away could be seen as more of the same.

My father passed away a few weeks ago. I am not in touch with my family and heard through the grapevine on the same day as our 14th wedding anniversary. My kids were away with my inlaws, i hadnt heard from my H in over a week (no reason to contact me as kids were away) and i was on my own. So, i got in a bus and travelled to the other side of the country, booked a B&b and did lots of waking. I finally told him in Sunday (that was the reason for the hug) but he said a) why didnt i tell him and b) you bottle all your emotions up.

I didnt tell him because i was Dbing. I didnt tell him because when i was on the verge of a breakdown after he left (he literally left me crying on the side of the road) and he didnt care. I didnt tell him because he would turn it against me and i wanted to grieve without it being polluted.

Anyway, I digress. I just wanted to explain that detaching could be seen by him as more of the same and seeing me getting on with my life just gave him permission to see someone else. Deep down I know this thinking is futile. He would havr started seeing people anyway but the thought still niggles at the back, sometimes the front, of my mind. I am going to get back on the Db horse anyway because at least its a plan.

Re the separation agreement. You are riget. I dont want to separate so will file it away until such a time as he brings it up again. At least I know what I want if we do go down that road and I am prepared. Oh, and yes - or current arrangement is better for him financially. He pays bills. I pay everything else. If we went down the formal route he would have to cough up proper maintenance (prob same as bills) and 50% of the children related costs (which is nearly the same as maintenance. I am not seeking spousal support as we earn the same but I think he is afraid I will ask as I have grounds but it would prolong the process and just make it more difficult to be good parents to our kids.

He has asked to pick up the kids after school today (we have a nanny) and wants to come round to walk the dog this evening. So, things appear to be back to normal. Just two people co-parenting. I hate this. I hate that I have to pretend that I like this normal. I hate not being able to reach out to him and tell him that under the smile I am falling apart.

When we hugged the other day I felt at home, safe, loved. I know he did it to comfort me and that for him it probably felt false. That is the way i feel every day when I smile and say "my days been good thanks, how was yours".

Originally Posted by FlySolo

I worry about this detachment thing a lot, because from the outside it looks like I've given up on us and am merrily building a life without him. I know it was, and will help me heal, but it always felt (feels) like i am pushing him away. In of his issues with me is that i am emotional detached. He said i didnt feel anything. So, to him, my pulling away could be seen as more of the same.

Anyway, I digress. I just wanted to explain that detaching could be seen by him as more of the same and seeing me getting on with my life just gave him permission to see someone else. Deep down I know this thinking is futile. He would havr started seeing people anyway but the thought still niggles at the back, sometimes the front, of my mind. I am going to get back on the Db horse anyway because at least its a plan.

This describes me exactly. It�s a daily worry. Before H moved out, he told me that he saw that I was moving on, and he didn�t blame me. I explained that I didn�t like the person I was becoming, and I am getting on with my life and discovering myself, and I would do so either with or without him in my life, but I hoped it was with him. I told him I thought that 2 people needed to be happy within themselves to work on a happy marriage.

Yesterday when I messaged him I was curious he didn�t ask about the kids, he told me I wasn�t exactly communicative, and I have been very icy since he moved out. He of course put blame immediately on me, and got defensive likes he usually does. I told him I�m not trying to be icy, just giving him his space and was available to talk at any time. Later in the day he said he understood I was giving him space.

So, the more I detach, I feel I give him more reason to move on. I would be grateful for feedback from the vets out there on how screwed up this thinking probably is.

Hi Grace

I think I read somewhere on here that detachment is a process and we need to trust the process. I am trying to trust it, but I think we all find it hard. I think you handled it correctly by telling him you are giving him space, but you are available to talk if he wants to. The process is as much for us as them. I can testify, well until recently, that detaching was helping me to heal. I was able to watch my H get in the car with the kids to take them away for the night and not feel the tears welling up. I was starting to smile and laugh again. I was spending time on me and liking what I was (am) becoming. So, I don't know if it will help us to reconcile, but it was helping me move to acceptance. Although, the set back of finding out he is dating has thrown me right back to the early stages. I think I am back to grieving, with a pinch of bargaining (Ok more than a pinch - I told him I loved him and then threw myself at him).

The anger is gone, although I do not know if I ever went through anger. There were moments (him telling me he was going out NY eve two nights before, destroying all our photos the other night) but these are momentary and not typical of my experience.

It has also helped my H and I to at least function as parents to our girls. Cashier friendly (i.e. polite, but not emotionally invested in the conversation), even when it is forced, means that we do not get into tit for tats and do not delve into each others lives.

So, quick update.

He came to pick up D12 to take her out for the afternoon. Whilst he was here, he said he was talking to the builder (we are having some work done in the garden) and asked what type of stone I wanted. I said I didn't want to keep the costs down as we might not be here next year. This turned into a conversation about the house (he doesn't want to sell), which turned into a conversation about the separation order (he wants this), which turned into a conversation about a divorce (he doesn't want one).

Back to the detachment rules. Maybe they are onto something. If I hadn''t pursued (bared my soul), then maybe we wouldn't have had the D conversation. ILU = Pressure => I need to get away.

The conversation was very calm. No raised voices. Practical. Our nanny arrived and we stopped. He acted like nothing had happened, as if we had just been talking about the weather. He asked me if I wanted to join him and D12 for the afternoon. All whilst tears were forming in my eyes and the tightness in my chest was rising. I said "no, I don't think that's a good idea".

Some weird things about the conversation. Could be projecting but sounds like he doesn't really want things to change.

1. He didn't want me to sell the house. Redemption fees (he said 50 thousand, I know it's 12). Property values will go up quicker where the house is then anywhere else around here. You won't get anywhere around here. Unfair to move the girls further out of town. He wants to rent it out and then we rent separate places. He even suggested he move in and I move out and he will pay the mortgage.

2. I said I would take the bills and he can pay me set maintenance instead. He wants to keep the bills and pay 100% of our youngest school fees. He will not transfer the bills to my name and he will not officially move out. Something about credit rating going down as he will be living in a flat. When he left it was I don't want to change them all now only to change them again when I move back.

3. He does not want to get a D. He wants to wait the two years. I even said he could file on unreasonable and I would sign. He said don't be ridiculous.

H and D12 are back again. Sitting on the sofa watching one of D12's programmes together. It is Once Upon A Time - something he never would have done before. He would have told her to switch it to something he liked instead. Now, he cuddles her on the sofa and pretends to be interested.

I am supposed to be working from home today, but after the D conversation I sent a text asking for the day off. I mentioned this to H as I was in the middle of texting when he walked past. He said "Have you got the sleeping pills". I said yes, I am not thinking straight, that my brain was in a fog and that I need to sleep. That was my way of trying to say, I was too emotional and tired to have the conversation and maybe we took it a step too far, but he simply said "Ok, well make sure you take them" and then cheerfully left with D12.

Anyway, a long update.

I guess, I just wait until the next move. No R conversations, no talking about how sad I am. Concentrate on me and GAL as much as I can (even if I have to force myself).

That sounds like a really difficult conversation FS but perhaps a good glimpse into his mindset. I think him not wanting a divorce right away is hopeful. I think when people are really determined with no doubts, they want to get it over with ASAP so they don�t have to deal with the LBS� emotions and the drama - especially if there is an OW involved. They want to move on as quickly as possible. So...a bit of a setback on the DBing but it is understandable. You can recover and get back on the horse. Interesting that he is so attractive to your D now. My H is the same way. He has put in minimal time with our kids for the last three years but lately is wanting to spend more time with them. Same as your H... he sat on the couch with our kids and watched what they wanted to watch instead of getting on his phone and scrolling through videos, etc... I look at him doing this and I think...WTF...why weren�t you doing that before?

After BD I did all the usual things that all of us on here probably did. I begged and pleaded, promised to change (be more affectionate, take an interest in him) and initiated intimacy. I made him do MC (we lasted 3 sessions). This went on for 3 - 6 months (before he moved out). Everything only pushed him further away. And I obsessed, and couldn't sleep, and lost weight, and became a shell of a person.

When this started he was angry and unhappy. He did not know why. And as I pushed him for an answer, as I begged and pleaded with him to work on our R, that anger and unhappiness began to take a physical shape, and that shape was me.

It took me another six months to start to get myself back. I was healthy again, I was smiling and laughing. The world seemed more vivid. And I was OK. I read everything I could on MLC and it was all pointing to patience, not applying pressure and as long as I kept a small candle in the back of my mind, he would come back. I was OK because I was getting on with my life with the small grain of hope that he would come back.

Today is a new day. There is only a sliver of hope left. I know it is a marathon and not a sprint. But we crossed another line over the last few days and I have already drawn and crossed so many lines in the sand. So, I am going to get my kids ready for school and myself for work. I am going to the gym at lunch and after work. I might go see a movie.

My H is coming to take them to school this morning and is dropping me off at the train station as I am going to go out for dinner tonight and will probably not be able to drive home from the station. Note: I asked yesterday, and he happily agreed to babysit tonight as I am going to meet a friend for dinner (I am not - and I don't know why I told him I was).

What I am looking for - comfort from someone, anyone, that I have the strength to carry on.

DJV - Yes - the taking so much interest in the kids leaves me with mixed feelings. Moving out made him miss the kids and he knows that he can't take them for granted. I can't fault him for that, as much as it kills me to watch him be the father I always wanted him to be.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

What I am looking for - comfort from someone, anyone, that I have the strength to carry on.

LBS as well as WAS are probably doing this. I find comfort in friends, my church, and activities. THIS is what gives me the strength to carry on. Filling my days has been so important. When I feel blue, I call a friend. And most of my days are pretty good. I am adamant about not looking towards another man for comfort. Clouds things, I would imagine, and besides, I AM a married woman. Wonder if my H sees it that way? We agreed to no dating, but I don't know his strength in this area.

Things i find comfort in - work (I am good at it and am valued by my team), yoga and meditation (I have spent a year working on my emotional and physical well being and it is starting ok show), my children and learning to be more present with them, art (a form of therapy, and again, i am pretty good at it) and time with the small friendship group I've acquired in the last six months. Women who make me laugh and make me cry. Over the last few days I've tried these things and he still invades my thoughts stopping me from being present and just enjoying things.

So, this evening, instead of meeting friends as I had told H i would be doing this evening, i booked a session with a therapist. Although, I am not the crying mess I was after BD i recognise that the obsession, the lack of sleep and the not eating is probably a cause for concern. I will say that, even though finding out he is dating is a shock, I am stronger than I was when he dropped he bomb a year ago. Then I blamed myself for everything and was desperate to fix our marriage. I made myself I�ll trying to fix it and only pushed him further away. I wish I had found this forum sooner. This time, I know that I am not to blame for our MR falling apart and I can�t fix it. I can only fix me.

The therapist said I need to think about the things that I am allowing him to do that continue to hurt me and ask myself truthfully to say why I let him do those things. So, I will try and list them out below:

1. Watching him lavish affection on our children and our dog in our home - although this is a positive change in him it hurts me to watch it. I let him act this way because I hope it will trigger something that says our family life is worth fighting for.

2. Letting him come and go from the family home at will - although it is not his home anymore i dont want him to stop feeling like it is. It is a connection with us that i dont want him to lose.

3. Letting him act as if we are friends (lifts to the station, pleasantries, being accommodating of my wishes) when it hurts me to see him act as if he isnt hurting too - because i am too scared that saying something will push him away more and return to the coldness, where the anger was only ever a hairs breath away.

There - I've listed them. She said it is enough for know to be aware of these things and why I do them. Next week we will set boundaries so that I can start to heal.

Other GAL activities - I went to the gym. I laughed at work. I made sure i looked [censored] good when my husband picked me up to drive me to the station this morning.

Side note - why do I need him to see me looking good? Because it will do him hood to see what he is throwing away.

Just got in from my pretend dinner (where I actually when to see a therapist). H was just finishing putting the girls to bed and when he came out i thanked him for watching the girls for me and walked him straight to the door. He asked me how my night was ("it was nice thanks") but didnt pry any further. He then said he'd be around Friday to take my car to the garage as he had booked an appointment to have it serviced. He remembered it was due when he was cleaning it today.

Firstly, go me for being all casual and ok (on the outside) with the situation. And secondly ... WTF .,, you abandoned me, are seeing other women (possibly starting a relationship with one) but u think its ok to clean my car and book it in to be serviced. He also said he might come round tomorrow and spend some time with the girls of he finishes work early,

I really need to sort those boundaries but im afraid of how he will react. I read on another thread that we dont set boundaries because we fear they'll react and the D conversation will come up again. I think, for me, that's prob true. But we are pretty much D'd already so I am no worse off, right. My brain gets it. My heart, not sl much.

On the Friday thing - he told me he was fostered Friday and couldnt see the girls. When he mentioned picking up my car Friday i said "thought u were working" he ummed for a bit, looked confused and then said, oh, I probably got that wrong because Im going out Friday night. I assume with her.

Another post ... I think i need to get all these thoughts out and I don't want to burden my friends with it. Plus, it has been going on for so long that i sense people feeling I should just be getting over it now. My MIL is kind and listens, but she often tells him whats going on in my head, and that is not always helpful.

I think I mentioned I meditate. I normally try and find guided mediation for letting go of emotions. I have even done meditation on reattaching to your soulmate. Letting go of lost loves. I read the comments and most of these said things like "this really helped me to forget", "I got through the day without thinking about him/her". I couldn't do it because I don't want to let go. If I let go, then our MR is over, right?

God, this standing thing is difficult. How do you let go, and still stand?

Another restless night. I managed 2 hours without sleeping aid, then awake, playing back every interaction my H and I have had over the past week. I eventually gave up trying to sleep on my own and took a tablet. That lasted 3 hours of solid sleep followed by 2 hours of awake, asleep, awake.

I had texted the nanny to say I would be 15 min late last night. She was ok with this. Straight after, I got a text from H asking if he could come visit the girls.

H: Can I come by and see the girls at 8.
M: sure.. The girls will lile that. I prob won't be there as running late
H: oh, ok. Do you want me to come earlier. I can take over from [the nanny]
M: If you want. [The nanny] knows I'm late.
H: <<thumbs up emoji>>

Is this pursuing. If I were truly detached I would have just said no. Is he cake eating. Having his single life, and then also coming round here and getting his family life fix?

I timed it so I would get home about ten minutes after him. I even left my car at the station so he thinks I've been out for drinks after work. In actuality, i was just held up at work. PS - I know that sounds more like game playing then detaching, But it doesn't hurt him to think this.

He was sitting on the cuddled up on the sofa watching cartoons with D8 and NOT scrolling through his phone when I came in (if you knew H before you would be screaming WTF). I offered to make him a coffee or tea. I think this is politeness not pursuing. I then sat on the opposite sofa with my D12 and started scrolling through mSopy phone. This is a complete reversal for us. Before BD I could never find my phone (it was always in another room or at the bottom of my bag) and his was permanently attached to his arm.

He initiated small talk. Mostly nothing. I was polite, but disengaged. He then said as I am home today (friday) he won't take my car to the garage and then proceeded to tell me in minute detail how to get there, where I should sit and wait etc. . I said "Ok, thanks" looking down at my phone the whole time (this is what he use to do to me). I then said as he was here with the girls, I might go tidy up my bedroom. About 15 mins later he came up and said he was leaving and asked if he could pick up the girls and take them to school this morning. I said "Ok, and you can give me a lift as I left my car at the station" (my imaginary drinks meant I couldn't drive home).

I think I am detaching but I am not setting boundaries. I do not know if he sees the changes or sense the detachment. Maybe they are too subtle.

I have not brought up D or R.

GAL activities: I am going to have breakfast with some girlfriends and then go to the library where one of them has a snall exhibition of art work.

H is taking the girls to his mums tomorrow night instead of having them stay with him. This got my back up. It means he is planning on going out with her. I said something like "you haven't really had them over at all this week" and he mentioned he'd been around every day to visit. I said, "yeah, I'd noticed that".

I think I wanted to make a point that he was spending a lot of time here (i.e. to make him acknowledge that the weekend impacted him too) and also that I knew he was using his mum as a babysitter so he could go out.

Was this wrong? Should I just have said nothing?

He mentioned he is not sleeping well either. But he blames a headache that he can't seem to get rid of. He made a point of mentioning that is friend (a male friend) is flying in today and is here for the weekend and he is catching up with him tonight. He normally doesn't bother telling me what he is doing.

Am i looking for signs that aren't there?

ok - on the basis that this is where I am supposed to vent ...

My H is still a lying cheating scum bag.

I spoke to my MIL today to confirm arrangements to babysit for me next week (it is my birthday and work colleagues are taking me out for a drink). When H came home (to drop the kids off as he had picked them up from school) I said "just on the phone with your mum" and he looked sheepish and then said he had to go. I felt the hairs on the back of my neck rising, and the heat coming up on my chest, and against better judgement I called his mum back as soon as he left and asked whether she had asked him if she could have the kids tomorrow night, or if he had asked her. Turns out, she never asked him and knows nothing about it. She said he'd called her this morning and she wasn't able to talk and when she called him back he was driving with the kids in the car, so he said he'd call her back. All that "I will always be there to look after the kids", the "I want to see them as often as I can" and he then wants to offload them on his mum so he can go out with her. I can only assume its with her, otherwise, why lie about it.

And I also can't believe he is still lying about her. He knows I know. He knows there is nothing I can say or do about it. But yet he lies. We are separated and he is free. But he lies non-the-less. Why? Is it to shield me from the pain? Is it to stop me moving on? Is it to retain the status quo?

In any case, my MIL told me even if he asks, can't watch the kids overnight. . Her spare bedroom is being re-decorated and there is no-where for the kids to sleep.

I hope when he calls OW to say he can't go out tomorrow because he has to babysit that it makes her think twice about seeing a married man. I hope it makes clear she will never come first. In fact, she will come third. His job first (he works on a roster and is away about 40% of the time) and then his children. Once they get comfortable, he will put nights out with his friends above her also. That is what happened to us. I was OK with it because the children and I were a package. When he was spending time with his kids, he was spending time with me. I only started to care when the kids (and I) became his third priority (after work and going out with friends) and thats when the problems started. It is fun now, the spark of a new relationship. But, once it becomes real, she will know that his heart is always going to be with the kids.

My MIL just text to say that he had called her but didn't mention babysitting for him. I think he knows that we will probably discuss it at some point and thought better of it. I guess this means he will sulk, be the victim, demonize me and the two of them can talk about what a [censored] i am for stopping them from being together. I didn't do anything. He is the one who constructed an elaborate lie => which turns out he then didn't put into action.

He is out tonight with an old school buddy. He will probably ask her to come down and join them. I can't stop him. Right now, I hate him.

Journaling

I managed to sleup without the pills last night. I woke up at half four but that means about 5 hours straight sleep. no ceaseless tunnels wondering if he was having fun with OW. some cheerless tunnels grieving for our M.

last night I took the girls out for dinner. we had a conversation in the car about daddy. we had (pre BD) discussed my buying a new car last year and D8 asked if we were still going to do that. i said i dont know as we dont have as much money as we use to have. this opened the door for D8 to ask questions. D12 just looked out the window. D8 wanted to know if daddy was coming back and i said i dont know. D12 is often angry with the world (hormones, body changing, moving from child to teenager) and I have spoken to her about this many times so I tried to frame it that daddy is going through a similar thing. I asked D12, when she is feeling sad/angry even if she doesnt know why. who she gets angriest with and she said "mummy" and when I asked her why she said "because you are always there". . I said it was the sane for daddy before he left but he is not as angry now and, because daddy being angry made mummy sad, mummy isnt as sad anymore.

hopefully i handled this correctly. no blame. D12 knows that she cant help being angry sometimes because she is a 12 year old girl. she knows that no matter how angry key hurtful she is, and how made I might get at her for being that away, that I will always love her. i hope she knows that her anger is because she is changing and doesnt know why but that no matter how much she hates me in the moment, that deep down she loves me.

the rest of the dinner was fun but uneventful. we laughed kittle at D12s attempts to cur her steak (she still gets confused about which hand to use. we then came home and cuddled up to watch harry potter.

today in am going to get all our nails done and take the girls out for breakfast. D12 has netball and H said he might make it there but he needs to take his school buddy to the airport and doesnt know what time the flight is. so might not make it. A lie, he said the other day that his friend was flying down to visit his brother and was just staying the night with him before he went to his brothers place. no matter. Ceaseless tunnel.

I am having a birthday party tonight. so am looking forward to that.

*apologies for rubbish spelling. typing on my phone and not really awake 😬

journaling

Birthday party last night. I threw a cocktail masterclass party and invited 10 girlfriends round. It was such lovely night. Nothing major. We had a cocktail master and a chief come over. The cocktail master taught us 4 cocktails and in between each we were served canapes. the cocktail master class lasted about three hours and then are just sat in the living room and drank wine and talked.

I never would have been able to do it if my H hadnt left. i would have had to think about his roster, whether a cocktail class is something he'd be interested in doing, who would watch the kids etc etc. I mentioned this to him yesterday and he said "you could have organized something in the past". Maybe i could have (logistic would have been tougher) but I didnt want to. He and the family were enough and towards the end, I was too scared of displeasing him.

some random things ...

We had agreed he would bring D12 back from netball and then come back and pick up both kids at 5:00 so I could start getting ready for the party. When he brought D12 back i asked if he wanted a coffee before he left. He said yes and we sat in the kitchen, him reading the paper (he brought this in with him) and me reading a book. Every now and then he would comment on what he was reading and wed talk for a bit. this went on for a couple of hours and then he said there was no point in him going away and coming back and he might as well stay until 5. well, 5 came and i he was still there. after many hints, he eventually got the point and we walked to the front door. he started to walk out then decided he needed to clear the drive (there were leaves) so spent 20 mins doing that. Whilst I know mind reading is a big no ok these do not seem like the actions of a man who fast fully let go. He also picked me up this morning to take me kr watch D12s football game and invited me round ri his mums for dinner tonight.

Journaling

Dinner at H's mum was surprisingly pleasant. H is making a concerted effort to be nicer to me. Normally he goes in the living room and watches TV whilst scrolling through his phone and I stay in the kitchen and make small talk with his mum. This time he stayed in the kitchen with us and chatted about his brother (also going through a breakup) and his sister (buying a house). He said his brother is being taken for a ride and he mentioned how unfair his brothers soon to be exW is being. At one stage he even showed me previews for a new movie he is looking forward to (...WTF... why would you show someone previews for a movie you have no intention of watching with them). He reached across the table to show me not one, but two previews. At one stage I said I was having trouble finding parking at the station at the moment and he started looking up potential long term parking lets on his phone. I don't know where it is coming from, and not wanting to mind read, I will just accept it as a pleasant change.

He drove me home (more pleasant conversation) and then offered to have the children today as I need to come into the office for a meeting and it would mean rushing about to get back in time for school pick up. It still hurt when he took the kids away last night but not as much as it use to hurt.

He has not mentioned OW, SO or D since last week. At one point he referred to our house as 'home' (I was genuinely confused as to whether he was referring to his flat or our house so said (without thinking) "my house?" and he went "yeah").

I would like to know where all the pleasantness is coming from. Is it normal to suddenly be nice to your wife once she discovers you're dating.

GAL activities - at work today and kids this evening so not much chance for GAL'ing. I am going to the gym at lunch and speaking to a DB phone coach this afternoon. I will say I am less emotional then I was last week when I booked it and am in a much clearer head space so not sure how much I need it now. Will give it a go anyway. They might be able to offer a perspective I don't already have.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

last night I took the girls out for dinner. we had a conversation in the car about daddy. we had (pre BD) discussed my buying a new car last year and D8 asked if we were still going to do that. i said i dont know as we dont have as much money as we use to have. this opened the door for D8 to ask questions. D12 just looked out the window. D8 wanted to know if daddy was coming back and i said i dont know. D12 is often angry with the world (hormones, body changing, moving from child to teenager) and I have spoken to her about this many times so I tried to frame it that daddy is going through a similar thing. I asked D12, when she is feeling sad/angry even if she doesnt know why. who she gets angriest with and she said "mummy" and when I asked her why she said "because you are always there". . I said it was the sane for daddy before he left but he is not as angry now and, because daddy being angry made mummy sad, mummy isnt as sad anymore.

hopefully i handled this correctly. no blame.

We talk a lot about listening and validating with the WAS, but what we don't talk about as much is that the same goes for the kids. What they are going through is very difficult and traumatic to them and their feelings are quite raw. So it's important to listen to them, and not to argue/explain/reason with them but just validate to let them know you hear them and sympathize with their feelings. It was good that you asked them so that they can open up if they need to and it sounds like you handled it pretty well.

Very sorry you're going through this! Glad you're getting a little sleep now, hopefully that will continue to get better.

Whilst it is impossible for my kids to not be effected, I think they are coping as well as can be expected. To give my H his due, he has maintained (and in deed made a concerted effort to build) a loving bond with them as he did pre BD. We are both committed to our children. My H won't engage in conversations with them about why he left (any more than he will with me) but he gives them love and affection. When he left he told them "mummy and daddy need some time apart because we fight so much" (which was bull) and he said he might come home if we can work things out. He has never told them any different.

Something rather strange that I left off my update earlier. When we were discussing parking, my H offered to let me use the car space at his flat (when he isn't using it). He said he would let me know the days he is away. He then offered to let me put a note up around his block of flats to see if anyone wants to rent me their car space. I said "that would be a little too close for comfort" and he said "it isn't ideal, but if you can't find anything else".

Does anyone else think this is strange?

Don't try to make your H look bad to the kids. He's already done that himself and it would only make you look worse. I think you already know this though! But don't let him get away with blaming it all on you.

Your H is trying to be nice and toss you a bone b/c he feels bad about hurting you. Tell him to take his sympathy on shove it. But do it nicely.

Your party sounds like a great time!! Good for you!!! Keep GAL...you can only benefit. I, too, have had some out-of-character touch and goes with my H lately. I think it would be completely ludicrous to think that our H's don't have any feelings remaining for us. I have been my H's best friend for years...that is not a relationship, regardless of what problems there are, that you walk away from without looking back...at least once and maybe multiple times. I think that is why the GAL is so important. So we can come out of this at the end with SOMETHING... even if that something is not our marriage. I overreacted to something my H did yesterday which tells me I have a long way to go still... even though I'm doing good. He apologized and said he did not mean to hurt me.. said "I was reaching out". Alas...I think he was reaching out because of guilt...not because he actually misses me. My H also referred to his moving out as "temporary" to his daughter. Don't know if he is thinking that it actually is temporary or if he was just trying to soften the blow and inch his way closer to a D. Given my H's practice of avoidance... I would not be surprised if it is the latter. Anyway... I think you shouldn't read too much into his latest actions...for your sake. Just stay the course and keep working on you. (((HUGS)))

The party was great. It was very chilled out and we spent a lot of time laughing.

I have known most of the women for years. I met them at the school gates, went to childrens parties with them, but kept my distance. My life was my family and my work. When BD happened, I really had no-one to turn to. My MIL (who is great, but her priorities are her grandchildren first, then her son).

I didn't turn to the other mums because my personal life isn't gossip and (from reading on other forums) women seem to turn militant when a H leaves. Online, they seem full of anger. So, I pretended for a long time that everything was fine. However, I started to accept invitations to dinners as a GAL activity. And it turns out they are wonderful. They shake their heads sometimes, but they are rooting for us. I tend to use this forum as a means of working things out in my head, but they know what is going on, and are respectful of our situation. So, not much H talk at my party but that was probably what I needed.

journaling - not many GAL activities yesterday or today. Normal day to day stuff. Work, kids, a quick drink with a work buddy yesterday (diet coke). I have a school assembly to go to for D8 tomorrow and then a night out thurs to celebrate a milestone at work. Didn't see H yesterday and don't expect to see him until Thurs now. He is away with work. I am going to use his car space the next two days so assume he is telling me the truth. Sleepless night last night. Woke up at 3:30 thinking that he was probably with her. He had been texting me last night about D12. He had them over night and had dropped them off at netball (I picked them up). He started texting as soon as he got home. He is having problems with her and wants me to start checking her phone. He didn't respond to my last text, and as he had been so quick with his responses before that, I was sure it was because she had turned up in the middle of our text exchange. In the light of day, I realise how stupid this is. I got upset because I expected him to continue with the exchange. There are a million reasons he didn't respond and, yes one of them could have to do with her, but there is no point worrying about it, because there is FA I can do.

It is my actual b-day tomorrow. D8 let slip that they had gone shopping with daddy to get me a present. Which is nice (though I think more of his guilt driven niceness). Tomorrow will be the first morning in 16 years that I have not woken up next to him on my b-day (he always booked the day off). It will be tough. But I survived our wedding anniversary so guess I can survive this.

I didn't realise how hard my first birthday alone was going to be. We have a birthday tradition, where my H and the kids bring me breakfast in bed. We all then sit on the bed and open my presents together. Earlier this evening D8 asked me not to wake up first. Daddy had told them to carry on with the tradition. My kids aren't great at getting up on their own, and as it's a school day I was worried about running late so I said "how about I wake you up and then I'll get back into bed and you can bring me breakfast". D8 said no, that I am supposed to stay in bed, and stupidly, before I could stop myself I said "But honey, Daddy's not going to be here this year to wake you".

D8 looked at me with her big eyes, and D12 looked down. Another reminder of the damage that's been done.

So, in the morning I will put on a happy face for the kids. Tell them how proud of them I am for making me breakfast on their own. I will open my presents (which H bought partly because he feels guilty, and mostly because he knows it would hurt the kids if they didn't have anything to give me), give them great big hugs and say "I love them". I will not be disappointed when H doesn't text or call wish me a happy birthday.

I know the rules say don't text unless its to do with the kids but I think I will text him at some point to say thank you for the presents, because that is what I would do if a work colleague or casual acquaintance did something nice for me.

Happy Birthday FS. Really hope it goes better than you anticipate it will. Try to focus on who IS there instead of who isn't. I know it is hard... it is SO hard. This is such a rollercoaster ride, isn't it. Like you ... I have good days... some really good days... but then something happens... an occasion or something seemingly insignificant that reminds me life is not the same as it was. Of course it wasn't when my H was lying to me either... but I didn't know it - not really. So it was easier to deal with. At this moment, I am aware that my H is nervously anticipating a job interview that happens in about an hour. If things were normal, I would have texted him a "good luck" and "you got this" pep talk. I'm sure he expects it. But...I've told myself no texts this week unless he reaches out first or I have business to discuss. So...I'm sitting here feeling quite uneasy...I know full well that it is him who has abandoned me but in this moment, I feel like I have abandoned him.

Anyway... just wanted to reach out and give you some support. Try to enjoy your day. Hug those beautiful kids of yours. Do something nice for yourself. There is life after all of this even if it is tough to see right now. It will be a good one. (((HUGS)))

D12 got up at 6:30 (unheard of) to make me breakfast this morning. I heard her sneaking around downstairs, but knowing how excited she probably was, resisted the urge to go downstairs and help her. Plus, I was snuggled in bed with D8, who had snuck on around half an hour before. When she eventually came in, they both cuddled me and said happy birthday and we opened my presents and cards together. D8's was full of reasons why she loved me ("you make me smile", "you make biscuits with me", etc) , whilst D12 said that "I am the way I am, because of you'. H had obviously spent time with them picking the cards out because they perfectly summed up the relationship I have with the both of them.

From my H i got an amazon echo dot (impersonal) and from the girls (which is also from H) a really expensive jumper (not so impersonal ...). They were nice presents, and a pleasant surprise. I think H encouraged the tradition and bought the presents more for the girls then for me, but it was nice of him non the less.

I was unsure whether to send a text to say thank you or not, I wanted to, but was worried that it fell into pursuing. However, I didn't have to wait long because he text me at 9:15.

H: Happy Birthday !!! Hope the girls are spoiling you rotten. Have a great day !!!
M: Thank you
M: D12 made me breakfast. Thank you for the presents. The girls were very excited giving them to me.

It went on for a bit. Him asking me how the girls were, particularly D12 who has been playing up on him lately. I said she is fine, and just going through some stuff.

I took your advise DeJaVu and bought a birthday present for myself. It is a new dress and I am thinking of wearing it tomorrow when H picks me up to take me to the station. It is tighter than I normally wear to work, but, as I am in the best shape of my life (I am a size 4) figure it is worth letting him see what he is missing. Left work early to watch D8's school assembly (adorable) and caught up for a chat with a couple of the mums. I have made more of an effort to get to know the other mums and it has been worth it.

Oh, I also got a birthday card from H. It said simply "Happy birthday - Hope you have a great day". He did sign it Love H.

I guess, he couldn't very well sign it "regards" or "best wishes" - that would just be cruel.

Sounds like your morning has gone much better than anticipated and you are rocking a great attitude... and new dress!!! I'm so glad you did that for yourself!! I have no doubt your H will notice. :-)

I see from your use of the word "jumper" that you are definitely in the UK somewhere. My H has family in that neck of the woods and they use that word all of the time. So you are probably about eight hours ahead of me as I am just into hour two of my work day.

Make sure you get plenty of sleep tonight!!

I live just outside London. I am Australian though and H is British. I met him here while i was traveling (post uni, pre real life gap year), 3 months into my travels, i met H and we moved in together 3 months after that.

Happy Birthday! Yeah, not sure if it's part of DB, but I always dress up in the nice, new clothes I bought since I'm in the best shape I've been in since college. I guess it's part of always being attractive, but it probably goes against detaching because she's still in my head.

I'm on the west coast of Canada. An Australian and a Brit?? Those are my favourite accents...lol. Hope you thoroughly enjoy the rest of your birthday!!!

i rocked the dress.. Dont think it is enough to trigger a reconciliation, but he definately noticed. He would be blind not to have noticed.

Had a lovely evening with friends. Again, never would have happened pre-break up, but since he is nor around to passively aggeeasiveky express his displeasure at my having drinks with male work colleagues (nothing in it btw) I was able to relax and just have a nice time.

I am still not overly comfortable with the GAL thing (it feels forced at times) and it seems to cement that we are sepaeate but the rational side of me sees the sense - not for him, not for us, but for me.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

i rocked the dress....Had a lovely evening with friends...I was able to relax and just have a nice time.

This is DBing! Good job.

Quote

I am still not overly comfortable with the GAL thing (it feels forced at times) ....

Keep forcing it. It will become normal.

Good for you FS!!! I know what you mean about it feeling a bit forced. I feel that way too sometimes. And then there are other times where I don't think of him at all and I really, really like those moments. Anyway... early days for both of us. I am taking others' word for it that it does get easier with time. So keep doing what you are doing. (((HUGS)))

So, today is another day. I am working from home (due to childcare, not hangover :)). I feel good today. Awake and fairly with it. Maybe because, apart from lift to station yesterday, I have not really seen H this week.

When I got home last night, my MIL, who was babysitting mentioned that H had said he didn't think I'd gone to work as had left my work laptop at home. He had come around to search for D8's PE kit and had noticed it on the kitchen table. Note: i was given a new laptop the day before and had not bothered to bring my old one back in. She mentioned he had also told her I had hired naked butlers for my birthday party. Naked butlers !!! Who does he think I am. She mentioned he scowled as he said it. I didn't - I hired a cocktail master and chief who were both fully clothed. I even showed him photos from the party the day after, and he never once mentioned that he thought they were supposed to be naked.

It is strange that they suddenly get curious about what you are up to after they've left. He is forever asking me questions "where are you going", "who are you going with". I am not particularly forthcoming and he doesn't push (as this would indicate interest). When I was late home last week he casually said "trouble with the trains" and I replied "nope - went out for a quick drink". He didn't say anything after that, what he could he say, we are not together anymore and how I spend my time is my business, but he did look away. I didn't mention the drink was coffee and that I drank it in a coffee shop by myself.

He then goes and tells his mum I am hiring naked men and playing truent from work.

I didn't write much about last night. I met up with colleagues, old and new, who have, over the last year, sat with me in meeting rooms and watched me cry, sat with me in pubs, and watched me cry, carried the slack when I couldn't focus or think. Last night was the first time in a long time that we have all been together and they all said how happy I looked. One guy said that I looked like the FS he first met (about a year before BD) just happier. Another said I was looking smoking hot and london better watch out once I get my mojo back. My H doesn't know any of them. He hated me going out with work mates (they're all men !!!) and thought that they all had a secret agenda. I use to say to him, it doesn't matter what they want, it only matters what I want. You either trust me or you don't. Though, despite my bravado I turned down invites for drinks and get togethers because I knew it would upset H. I stopped being true to myself because he didn't like it.

And then when he left one of his criticisms was I was too dependent on him.

R2C and Dejavu - thank you for your words.

I write here for me. Sorting through the jumble in my head and putting it into structured and articulate (sometimes) sentences helps me to separate the emotion from the event. The hurt from the act. Writing gives me a more detached perspective. So, in and of itself, journaling is cathartic.

But your words and encouragement (and virtual hugs Dejavu) makes me feel less alone.

FS, that sounds like a wonderful birthday! And it sounds like you are handling the interactions with H perfectly. It does sound like you still have a lot of expectations (I'm going to wear this dress and see what his reaction is) so try to temper that and just do things for you. That was very kind of him to buy presents for you even if for the D's to give you, believe me many LBS's here would kill to get that level of interest from their cold, uncaring WAS's. You're getting his attention which is a good thing, keep it up!

Hi Jen first time writing to you. I�m sending a delayed happy birthday salute. You are doing the right things. Keep GAL and detaching.

Stay strong FS, use the time wisely as Cadet says.

AS - I know. I think of him too much. But there are no expectations. I know my looking good in a dress isn't going to suddenly make him realize he is a fool for leaving me. He knows what I look like.

When he left I was broken. Months of him belittling me, criticizing me and telling me he loved me but wasn't attracted to me, had made me doubt myself. I have slowly been rebuilding, putting the pieced back together. The shock of finding out he was dating threw me in a spin. But it has taken less time to heal - because I already had six months of working on me. So, now I make the effort for me. So I can look in the mirror and be proud of who I am becoming. I make an effort out of self respect. It is a bonus that he notices.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

That was very kind of him to buy presents for you even if for the D's to give you, believe me many LBS's here would kill to get that level of interest from their cold, uncaring WAS's. You're getting his attention which is a good thing, keep it up!

I take it for what it is. Kindness driven partly by guilt and partly to keep me in this limbo state so he can cake eat. I will take the kindness anyway. It is better then the spite he use to spew. Let him eat cake. Meanwhile, I will be enjoying my picnic and getting on with my life.

I am fortunate in that H is not a complete [censored]. I read some of the threads here, particularly with respect to the children, and I want to reach across the screen and shake the writer and say "they are not worth it". But I have not walked in their shoes. It is up to each individual to know when their own tipping point has been reached.

Thank you both for checking in. And neffer. I am doing OK. Undoubtedly there will be more bumps in the road, and more lengthy posts desecting every nuance of every interaction, well, at least until I properly get the hang of this DB'g thing. Might take a while before DB'g properly sticks so I apologies in advance

On that note: H has text me once today to confirm numbers for D8's birthday (I responded) and then called me to reconfirm the numbers I had already given him. He is reaching out an awful lot at the moment. Pleasant conversation, all children based. I was cool and aloof. As was he.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

That's a perfect mindset!

Quote

I am fortunate in that H is not a complete [censored]. I read some of the threads here, particularly with respect to the children, and I want to reach across the screen and shake the writer and say "they are not worth it". But I have not walked in their shoes. It is up to each individual to know when their own tipping point has been reached.

Oh yes, some people here have to bear unspeakable cruelty. My ex treated me badly early on, but I just kept being myself and treating her with kindness. At one point about a month after BD she actually told me she had been treating me badly on purpose with the hope that it would make me want her to leave, but she felt so guilty doing it while I was being nice to her that she decided she couldn't to it anymore. From that point on she was very nice and respectful throughout the whole process. I think a lot of WAS's think like she does, but rarely do they actually admit it. Anyway I'm glad your H is more on the nice side like my ex, these situations are difficult enough without them behaving like asses.

Quote

I am doing OK.

I think you are doing better than OK

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He is reaching out an awful lot at the moment. Pleasant conversation, all children based. I was cool and aloof. As was he.

It sounds like he's worried you are slipping off of Plan B status. As long as you keep playing it cool I bet he will ramp up the pursuit.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

....She mentioned he had also told her I had hired naked butlers for my birthday party. Naked butlers !!!

OMG I would love to see his face if YOU hired a couple "stripping butlers" to HIS birthday party....

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

[My ex treated me badly early on, but I just kept being myself and treating her with kindness ... Anyway I'm glad your H is more on the nice side like my ex, these situations are difficult enough without them behaving like asses..

Don't let the mr nice guy act fool you. I endured 6 months at home with him being an utter [censored]. At one stage (christmas) his mum had to pull him up and say to him 'you can't treat FS like that. She is a person'. And then another 3 months of him treating me like a nanny or a housekeeper - the person who looked after his kids when he didn't want them. All this whilst I continued to pay the mortgage, food, and day to day costs of bringing up two children. The niceness has been building for 3 months now and only ramped up when i discovered he was dating. It is definitely plan B stuff. But with the kids, I think his affection is genuine and coupled with the kindest he shows me, makes this sitch easier for everyone.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

I think you are doing better than OK

I have my good days and my bad. I tried to sleep without pills last night and I managed 5 hours (I woke up 3 times). It is at night that I get lost in the tunnels. In the light of day I realise there is no point and I just try and get on with it.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

OMG I would love to see his face if YOU hired a couple "stripping butlers" to HIS birthday party....

The naked butler thing is hilarious. The fact that he scowled when he told his mum makes it even more funny. It's like he thinks I am the one in crises and reverting back to my 20's and he is disgusted by it. He's the one going to clubs and dating. I am spending time with mums, doing yoga, going for the odd after work drink and journaling. Maybe there is something to that projection thing.

Journaling - We are going out for a family meal later for my birthday. I spend years not acknowledging my birthday and this year, it is like a week long celebration

. H will be there and then will take the kids overnight. I am going out for dinner with one of D12's friends mums and have reached out to another mum to see if she wants to come along too. My friend is going through the final stages of divorce and is having a hard time of it. Her H has cut off her cards, refuses to pay the school fees, treats the children as if they are a burden, and pretty much told her and the kids that once the divorce is finalised, they are out on the street. She's not. She knows her rights. But he says it anyway because he is a controlling [censored].

Makes me realise that my problem, that is, a H who is trying to nice me into staying in limbo so he can continue to cake eat, is a nice problem to have as long as I see it for what it is.

FS... I think this all sounds pretty promising but as everyone says on here, it is a marathon, not a sprint, so just keep doing what you are doing. It is great that you are getting out with colleagues and that they are men who appreciate your good qualities. I�m sure your H is super jealous. Good... he deserves to struggle with that feeling.

I know what you mean about nights being the toughest. I feel the exact same way. My days are, for the most part, pretty darn easy. But when I come home from work and realize I have a night ahead of me with just me and the kids, it is difficult. Not what I had pictured. I think about how I would feel is my H had died and while that would have been incredibly difficult, the finality of it would have necessitated my moving one. Knowing that he is out there choosing to not be with me and his children is a different kind of hurt. It is the rejection that is hard to live with - especially because it is not mutual. When the kids head off to bed, that is when my mind kicks into overdrive so I try not to stay up much later than them. Like you, I find journaling very helpful as you are right, it does provide a bit of distance.

Your friend�s H sound like a complete and total jerk. I am thankful that is not my situation and it is not yours. Hope your family birthday dinner was a lot of fun!!! (((HUGS)))

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

I think about how I would feel is my H had died and while that would have been incredibly difficult, the finality of it would have necessitated my moving one. Knowing that he is out there choosing to not be with me and his children is a different kind of hurt. (((HUGS)))

I read somewhere that when a S leaves the LBS mourns not only for the future that is lost (in the way you do when someone passes), but also the past. You don't know how much of it was real (did they ever really love you, when did they start lying to you etc etc) and it doesn't help that they re-write history. It is tough, and you have to really look past the rubbish. I am not there yet. This is the reason I ripped up every photo.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

But when I come home from work and realize I have a night ahead of me with just me and the kids, it is difficult.

Do the kids stay over with your H? At first I found it heartbreaking when they did. But now I enjoy my nights alone. I've discovered that being alone isn't the same as being lonely. Whilst I think asking him to have your twins full time was maybe pressuring (and you will hate to be away from them) maybe you can go for something in between. Something that forces him to realise that being a dad is more than taking children for nice days out, and it would give you a break.

You deserve a break.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

Not what I had pictured.

Not what any of us pictured

I was going to walk into town for a few hours before the family lunch and as H lives in town, I said I would drop D8 off, do my errands (read get my nails done) and then come back to the flat and we would go in his car. When I got there H said he was taking D8 into town as well so if I wanted to wait whilst he finished his coffee we could walk into town together. This was the first time I'd been in his flat since his 'I am dating' confession (and my subsequent throwing of myself at him). It was uncomfortable. So, I took my phone out and started to scroll. It is not mind reading to say he would have hated this. No-one likes to be in the company of someone scrolling through their phone.

Feels kind of childish and stupid now. And rude.

There are many examples of bad behaviour on my part from today which would make this long post even longer, but it is enough to say I need to be kinder. He is a [censored] but that doesn't mean I have to be a [censored].

Dinner with friends was good fun though I was distracted by thoughts of H. Found out he was seen dropping a female off at the station one morning. This doesn't matter in the scheme of things.

But it will keep my up tonight.

Ugh... did your friends tell you about the sighting? People try to be helpful but man, that is information I would not want someone to tell me about. So sorry that was passed onto you.

My H doesn�t have anywhere for my kids to sleep so they stay here. The nights he sees them, I am usually out so he sees them here. I think if this becomes more permanent, we will have to try to figure something out but that would require buying them beds to put at his place. I could be wrong, but I�m not sure we are quite there yet. And I am really hoping we don�t get to that stage. That is going to be a talk we have a couple months down the road though. I think if he is still there in 2019 with no plans to return home, we will have to make some decisions. I am trying not to think that far ahead.

Don�t be too hard on yourself over the phone thing. I have only been to my H�s place once and I was very uncomfortable so I know what you mean. It�s like our place has a history of the two of us... his place does not so it feels like a stranger lives there... but it is my H. My kids have been to his place a few times so it is also a place where the three of them now have memories and I have been...erased? Definitely NOT a comfortable feeling. So give yourself a break on this one. (((HUGS)))

Hi DejaVu - i responded on your thread re setting up arrangements for H and the kids. He cannot continue to shirk his responsibilities. You need time for you. It does not mean you don't want to work on the M. It does not mean you don't love your kids. But working the double shift (work and children on your own) is going to leave you exhausted, cranky and irrational. I insisted H had a place for the children when he moved out. Yes, and those same thoughts, that I was encouraging the arrangement to become permanent, crossed my mind.

It wasn't just the phone thing. I was super friendly with MIL and FIL and then dismissive of him. This is how he use to be at the start. He would be charming to everyone else, and then would either ignore or give me one word answers. He wouldn't look me in the eye. He would turn his back to me. He would hug everyone else hello/goodbye, and not me. It made me feel like [censored] and I feel bad that I did it to him.

He did say a couple of things to get my back up.

- He has three weeks off work towards the end of the month and is going to take a week of it to visit his friend in Dubai (male, also recently divorced).
- He suggested that all my GAL'g activities are taking time away from the children
- In talking about a couple friend of ours who have recently separated 'they are never getting back together. No-one gets back together".

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

Ugh... did your friends tell you about the sighting? People try to be helpful but man, that is information I would not want someone to tell me about. So sorry that was passed onto you.

Nope - not helpful at all. He is picking me up in an hour to take me to watch D12's football match. He was with me yesterday. He was working (or so he says) most of last week but he spent most of two weeks (incl. weekends) with me. I know I am not supposed to waste my time on thinking about her, but I honestly cannot fathom how any woman could want to be with a man who is constantly with his (E)W and kids. Is she just a once a week booty call. She lives at least an hour away and that's a long way to travel. She's either very into him or she has extremely low self esteem.

So today has been a [censored] of a day. It started with picking me up for football. I was running late and had not had time to sort out D12's kit. Five minutes before they were due to arrive, I was frantically running around trying to find her shorts. Could not find them. I had vowed when he left whenever he came over the house would be a place of tranquility and calm. Not today.

He started to make D12 a sandwich and there was no bread or sandwich filling in the house. The bread that was in the bread bin was 2 days old. So, the monologue began ...

"Her kit is supposed to be by the door when I arrive"
"you don't have any food in the house"
"this bread is mouldy"
"her shorts were in the drawer, you mustn't have looked properly"
"she's going to be late now" blah blah blah

I stayed calmish. I responded where necessary "didn't look there", "haven't done the shop yet" when all I wanted to say was "get out of my house you spiteful nasty man". Silence the whole car journey.

D12's game was good. She is a striker and does very well. We both love to watch her play. She is happy when she is playing. But she lacks confidence and pulls away at the last minute or fumbles at the goal.

The journey home was betterish. We talked about D12's game. He always gets animated when talking about her play. I yawned at one point and said I was tired. He asked how last night was "good thanks" and what time I got home "not sure. I didn't check my watch". I mentioned the other mum (one that I would normally catch a cab home) went home early but I had decided to stay out. Silence from him. He was expecting me to go home with her. She is safe and nice. That was the end of the conversation. When we got the house he hugged and said goodbye to the girls and mumbled bye to me as he walked off.

I did the shop and was so angry at him I bought condoms. I was going to take two out and put the rest in my wash kit (which is zipped up in my bathroom). If he saw them he would never be able to say anything because what is he doing in my bathroom looking in my wash bag. He will find them though. He thinks I am seeing people (I can see it in his eyes) and he will look for evidence. Not sure what the point of allowing him to find evidence is now. It wouldn't bring us any closer to getting back together.

Strange what anger can do to the rational mind. I will put them in my gym bag which goes with me to work.

[quote][/quote]"Her kit is supposed to be by the door when I arrive"
"you don't have any food in the house"
"this bread is mouldy"
"her shorts were in the drawer, you mustn't have looked properly"
"she's going to be late now" blah blah blah

Sounds like your Dad not your H. What a nag! Just keep smiling and laughing when you say how you've been soooo busy being out and about.

Not sure what to say about the condoms

Of course he wants to think you are seeing someone; it's something else for which he can blame you and justify his own behaviour. Don't enter the tournament.

You recognised very quickly what anger can do to the rational mind which is actually a massive thing. In other words, whilst you felt that emotion for a while, you have not let it have consequences or let it control you. Good for you.

I think your talk on the way back showed perfect responses from you. You had a good time and it has sparked his curiosity to start asking questions. We can't read his mind so we don't know what his motivation is but it doesn't matter; you were out enjoying yourself and he noticed.

Keep going FlySolo. The whole football kit nonsense was him being dominant and controlling but i think you pulled it back with the 'I'm tired because I was doing things I wanted to do' and took control over yourself back.

No more condom purchasing though.

thanks Yorkie - Northern common sense appreciated

I havent bought condoms in years. Felt weird buying them. Think i will give them to the chap not to me at work. He will get a good laugh out if it, and, as a bit of a tattoo, will probably make good use of them.

* tart not tattoo

Good day today. Nothing specific, work and spending time with kids.

Work was busy so not much time to wallow in self pity today. Work has been busy for weeks (which is a great distraction) but means I've not been able to get to the gym much. And I miss it. Funny, I didn't go for 15 years and am missing the gym after not having gone for two weeks.

When I got home today, the girls and I ordered take-away and watched funny YouTube videos together. D8 has one of those uncontrollable belly laughs that come from the pit of her stomach. Oh to be 8 again. We have also gotten into the habit of doing karaoke to youtube to songs. I love that we do this now. Strangely, their favourite songs to sing to are "This is me", "Sorry, Not Sorry" and "I'm still standing". They ask for these songs when we are driving around in the fancy car H bought 2 months before BD. The three of us singing songs about being yourself, living life after breakups and not being sorry, whilst he drives, makes me smile even now.

It is school holidays at the moment so H came around this morning to watch the girls for a few hours before he went to work. MIL was coming to take over from him later in the day. We had time to have a coffee together and it was cordial. He did feel the need to tell me that his friends are coming down and they are all going out next sat. He tells me his plans a lot now but only the plans he has to catch up with buddies. He doesn't mention his dates at all. Interestingly, he asked if I'd had hair extensions. I'm in my 40's so, no, I have not had hair extensions. I think he is seeing FS the person again, and not the demonised version of me that was in his head. Which is positive. He also mentioned one of his friends might be splitting up from their wife. He is always mentioning or asking about friends who are splitting up. I think this is because it normalises his actions a bit. Turns us into a statistic. I don't fall for the bait so just simply say "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that".

But like I said, it was pleasant enough. The most free flowing conversation we've had in a long time. So, I thanked him for watching the kids at short notice, wished him a great day and told him I'd see him when I see him.

But it was all so very pleasant. So very casual. This detaching thing is hard.

I remember asking a friend of mine who split up with her partner of 11 years 4 years ago, how long it took before she felt whole again. She said she knew they wouldn't get back together when he moved out but she knew it didn't hurt anymore when he came around 6 months later to pick up the last of his things. She asked him in for coffee, they chatted for a bit, then he took his stuff and left. Basically the same interaction H and I had this morning. She felt nothing. My heart still breaks thinking about him and it's been 7 months.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

I remember asking a friend of mine who split up with her partner of 11 years 4 years ago, how long it took before she felt whole again. She said she knew they wouldn't get back together when he moved out but she knew it didn't hurt anymore when he came around 6 months later to pick up the last of his things. She asked him in for coffee, they chatted for a bit, then he took his stuff and left. Basically the same interaction H and I had this morning. She felt nothing.

This is ALMOST how I felt on my trip to see the kids yesterday with H. I almost felt nothing. No anger, no longing. Just mainly wondered what H is doing with his time and whether he already is dating. I wouldn't be surprised, even though we agreed to no dating during the 2 month "trial" separation. He's not wearing his wedding ring so he must not feel married. Well, I think I probably feel this way, or have lack of feeling, because I am filling my life with other things now. I don't think to much about it. Just an observation.

Grace - the thing I find scariest is that one day H will just be another person I know. Probably not going to happen soon as I still look at him and fancy the pants of him. He was always attractive. I guess I just forgot under the weight of building careers, paying mortgages and raising two children. I took him for granted and that's on me. I still think it [censored] that he gave up so easily though.

I was watching H at D12's football match on Sunday. When he can make it he volunteers be a linesman for half the game. I watched him safely from the other side of the field. Each time I glanced his way he was laughing or smiling. The fact that he was just enjoying himself doing something as simply as being a linesman for an U13s football match reminded me that a) I still fancy him and b) somewhere under that spite (which is less obvious now) is the man I love.

It will take me a log time to get to your place of lacking feelings.

Must repeat to myself, detach, detach detach ...

Originally Posted by Grace21

He's not wearing his wedding ring so he must not feel married.

I do know that my H took his off for a bit directly post BD. He went to the gym and came back without it on. I waited three days and then asked him why. He looked down, and responded with such sadness, "what's the point of wearing it". I told him we were still M. He put it back on.

When he moved out I took mine off and threw it at him.

We can't mind read, but perhaps your H took his off for the same reason my H did. He looked at it and thought "what's the point". It might not have anything to do with making themselves available to other women. if that's what they wanted, it is easy to slip a ring into your pocket when you're out and then put it back on when you come home. They might have taken it off because at that time it represents their sadness. I took mine off out of spite. He took his off too straight after. Neither of us have put it back on. I have regretted it ever since.

I've just re-read the pursuit and distance thread and have a couple of questions. Hopefully someone can help.

I have been detaching for a while now and, other than a few fairly big setbacks, I've stuck with it. The results have been good - he no longer avoids or ignores me. He no longer scowls when he looks at me. Whilst I have no expectations that this will lead to R it does make life easier for everyone.

My question is this. We spend a lot of 'family' time together. Sometimes it is at his request ("why don't you come with us to mums"), sometimes I will ask him to stay for dinner/have a cup of tea when he drops/picks up the kids. I asked him to join us for my family birthday lunch. He sometimes says yes, he sometimes says no. Same when he asks me. I don't expect him to say yes and I am not outwardly disappointed when he says no. There have been times when I have said no and he has accused me of being awkward or passively aggressively indicated that I am hurting the kids. Mostly he just accepts the no and waves me goodbye.

Is asking him to join us for family activities pursuit?
Is saying yes when he asks me to spend time with him and the children pursuit?
Is letting him come over to visit the kids even when it isn't on the schedule pursuit?

He seems to enjoy the extra time with the kids. He doesn't seem to hate spending the time with me. The kids love seeing us together. My invites aren't making him run for the hills.

When asking him to hang out with us or saying yes to invites to hang out with them I think of him in the same way as MIL (I would ask her to stay for dinner / say yes if she asked me to stay for dinner). Is this the right way to think of it?

I don't want to be awkward (as we are in a good place) but all the time we spend together seems to be counter to the DB'g principles.

Advice would be appreciated.

I am going to go with the detached friend approach. I know it enables his behavior but I really couldn't cope with the angry monster again. I will say "no" more often though so he knows my life doesn't revolve around him anymore.

My days are fairly normalised now so at the moment my updates are really just me journaling my (very mundane) days and working through the tunnels in my head.

The kids are on a weeks holiday so I am having to work from home most of this week. I left my wallet at work on monday so one of my colleagues offered to bring it back with him last night (he lives in the same town) as I won't be in the office again for a few days. We agreed I would drop by his flat to pick it up from him today. When H came over this morning to spend an hour with the kids before he went to work I explained that I needed to pop out to pick up my wallet. He expressed displeasure - "why didn't you get it from him yesterday" (he was at work during the day); "why didn't you pick it up last night" (I didn't want to drag the kids out), "I need to leave by X can't you do it later" (no. I will do it now) - and also a bit more of the passive aggressive behavior I've seen a bit of lately "that's convenient that he lives so close" (yes it is).

It is strangely empowering watching him want to ask me more questions/get angry at me, but not being able to ... because WE ARE SEPARATED and he has no right to question or get angry.

I remember the faces he would pull when I'd mention a male work colleague. How he would suddenly become sulky and more critical. I paid it no mind at the time, but looking back I now see it for what it was - jealousy that he buried (because he would have hated to admit he was jealous) which over time turned into resentment.

Retrospect is a [censored].

Hi FS. I have the same questions as you about flexibility around the kids being pursuit. My schedule with my H is the "minimum" amount of time I expect him to spend with them. He gets off work about two hours before me and sometimes spends that time with the kids on days that are not technically his. I had told him before that was okay. On one hand, it benefits the kids to see him as much as possible but on the other hand, it also doesn't give him time to miss "us". So it is a quandary and one I would love others to weigh in on.

Overall, I think you are doing really well and your description of how things have gone seem pretty hopeful to me. He seems to be getting over his anger towards you and anger only seems to come out when he is a bit jealous. I don't think that is a bad thing.

Sounds to me like when you say "no" to an invitation and he gets passive aggressive, he is disappointed you aren't coming...has expectations maybe that he is not aware of. In time, I think, he will become more aware.

DejaVu

What drew me into joining this forum (a first for me) was the lighthouse and picnic stories. These perfectly described my mindset. I want(ed) to maintain the light / picnic whilst he works his way through whatever demons are haunting him. In reading the threads, I found a community of people who showed empathy, kindness, and yes, at times, a much needed kick in the butt.

I am still of the same mindset but I realize that it is a balance between being the light/picnic and not being a doormat. I guess that's where detaching and 180's come into play. I can maintain the picnic but be detached enough to not be bothered if he joins me.

I worry that the jealousy will lead to resentment. I will still carry on with my life though.

I have just booked the Allan Carr stop smoking course (mid November) and a six week comedy improv comedy course (start Nov - Dec).

Smoking is a crutch I don't need or want anymore and the comedy improv sounds like a good way to meet people and I need more laughter in my life.

Just need to sort out childcare now.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

I have just booked the Allan Carr stop smoking course (mid November) and a six week comedy improv comedy course (start Nov - Dec).

Sounds like two awesome goals!

FS... I am so proud of you!! Smoking is such a tough habit to break...worse than any addiction, I have heard. So good for you. And the improve course!!! That is so brave of you. And...no pressure or anything...but when my friend's first H left her, she met her second H at an improve course. Stands to reason you might meet some likeminded brave people who love to laugh there as well. Who knows what the future might hold if you continue to step outside of your comfort zone (assuming improve is outside of yours - it would definitely be outside of mine). I am looking forward to hearing about your experience. As I said before... I think you are doing a fantastic job and I find great inspiration in your posts as you are someone who struggles with similar dilemmas and questions as me. Super excited for you. I hope you laugh A LOT!!!

I stopped during both pregnancies and during breastfeeding (I did it for the kids) but started straight after as in my head it was the only break I got. Once, they'd be put to bed, I could go outside and do something just for me.That's what it felt like for a long time. Something just for me. Not for the kids, not for H. But just for me. Sounds pretty pathetic now.

H hated it. He would make lots of comments. But to me, it was him trying to control me so smoking was kind of like a silent two fingers up to him. I tried post BD. I lasted three months. Christmas and NY broke me. It was the wrong time to try. This time I am not telling anyone I am giving up. I am just going to do it.

DejaVu - I read on your thread that you are an IC for depressed anxious teenagers. I have a question about depression. Looking back H was very much in the midst of his depression at BD. I suspect it had been going on for at least 6-8 months before but reached its heights immediately after BD ... all that hatred just spewed out of him ... and stayed at that level until he MO. He would avoid coming home, watch TV for hours and he spoke of his unhappiness and not knowing how to be happy as the reason for the BD. He wouldn't look at me because I became (in his head) the cause of that unhappiness. Even the children were too much for him and he avoided them also. He became a loving father again as soon as he MO. But it took 7 months to start treating me like a person again. I am not sure if (in his head) we have gone too far down the separation route to reconcile, but I do suspect the fog is lifting.

My question then is when people start to come out of their depression, do they recognize the hurt they have caused others ? Do they feel any guilt? I guess I am looking for a reason for the sudden pleasantness.

Had a bit of a tough morning so am journaling twice today. I'm sure as the volatility in my emotions will level out the journaling will be less, but for now, it seems to keep the pain at bay.

H was picking the kids up this morning to take them out for the day. Normally he arrives around 8, we cross over for ten minutes and then I leave. But today I got a last minute text to join a work call at 8 am, and as it was already late I decided to take the call from home. I was already on the call when H arrived. In the past he hated hearing me on calls. He would never say anything. Just get a bit sulky and then make little comments later. I think this is because on some level he hated that I was so independent. Anyway, he saw I was on the call but didn't comment. He made both of us a cup of tea and then sat with the children in the living room. He took the recycling out. He walked the dog for 20 mins in the rain. When he came back, he sat with the children some more and then eventually asked them to get ready for their day out. I was already off the call at this point.

He helped them get ready, I wished them all a great day and shut the door behind them.

Then I went into my room and cried.

They were leaving to go to a fun park without me. Everyone was all sunshine and unicorns. The kids (because they were genuinely happy to be going out), me (putting on a brave face), H (perhaps it was genuine happiness, perhaps it was pretending a little bit too).

All I know is them spending a family day without me seems so normal now that it breaks my heart.

The kids are staying with them tonight then H is taking them to his mums tomorrow to go pumpkin picking. He is joining them at the pumpkin patch and asked if I would pick them up. He mentioned I am welcome to join the kids for lunch. Not sure if he will be there or not - he is going out tomorrow night so that is probably why he said I should pick them up.

When does the new normal just become normal?
If it stops hurting, does that mean that I have stood down?

I have been thinking about the sudden niceness as well. I think it is a little bit relief (the pressure is off), it is a little bit guilt, and it is a little bit because he genuinely does not want me to be hurt. It does not feel like he is cake eating. I think on some level it would feel better if it felt like cake eating. Because at least then it would show he missed me, even a little bit.

Wow FS. I could have written that. I so know what you mean about family time being spent without you and how much that hurts. I still think your H is putting on a show though. There is no way he is just going to breeze through this and not look back when he has such a wonderful W. To him, you probably look A-OK too and it is going to start to bother him if it hasn�t already [I suspect it has - hence the show.] Just stay the course. Keep GAL. Look forward to your improv course. Let yourself have happy moments. Yesterday and tomorrow only exist in our minds so try not to torture yourself with memories and dire predictions. Stay in the moment. You are going to be okay. I fully believe that. We are both going to emerge from this better people - stronger, kinder and wiser. AWOAFWL. Your story is not done...this is just one chapter. The questions you ask are completely normal, I think. I ask myself those all the time. What if this does become normal and I just accept it or, even worse, start to be okay with it? If I lose my desire to stand, is it the end for us? I think all we can do is move on as best we can and have faith that things will turn out the way they are supposed to. We also have to keep reminding ourselves that the H�s we have now are not the people we would want in our lives if we just met them now. They both have work to do and it is work that will not happen as long as we are in front of them distracting them from the REAL problem...themselves. So hang in there. Take advantage of opportunities presented to GAL. The rest will take care of itself. (((HUGS)))

Really sorry you're going through this FS, it's certainly painful to see "family" events no longer involve your participation! The best recourse for that is to plan something that is just for YOU and the kids. Plan it right now! Maybe something for this weekend or next weekend, but plan it and tell the kids about it. Their excitement will spill over to you and change your mood.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

When does the new normal just become normal?

It varies from person to person but for me it was about a year post BD before I really settled into life without W and dropped the rope and could be pretty much unaffected by things like her taking the kids to do something without me. Definitely by the 18 month mark I was over it. I mean it never -completely- goes away, even now years later if I hear about my ex and kids doing something fun together there's a slight pang there but not enough to change my mood.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

If it stops hurting, does that mean that I have stood down?

"Stood down" sounds like you're asking if you'll quit, but I think "moving on" is a more apt description. You'll never stop loving him (although the love will change from being "in love" to more like loving him as a family member) or just give up and quit or anything like that. You'll slowly come to accept things, deal with them, and move past it. I know it's painful now, and I also know that nothing I say is really going to make it better right now. I remember people telling me "with time you'll get over it and be better" and thinking "no you have no idea what I'm going through." But they were right, I did get over it and now it all just seems like a really bad dream. And you will be better too. Until then just take it a day at a time, or an hour if you can't stand a day. Just focus on getting through the next increment of time with no thoughts about what tomorrow will bring. Get out and GAL and hold hope in your heart.

Thanks DejaVu and AS. Everything you both say I know is true. I know I am just having a bit of a wobble. I will pick myself back up.

Stood down for me is when I let go of the rope. I don't think it will be a conscious decision. I will just wake up one day and realise that I have not thought or been concerned about him for a while. Part of me wants that day to come, part of me fears it.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

To him, you probably look A-OK too and it is going to start to bother him if it hasnt already [I suspect it has - hence the show.]

I worry that by thinking I am OK this somehow removes the guilt or drives him further awat. But I have read enough threads here to know, as counterintuitive as it feels, I really have no option but to to detach. The annoying thought that it is driving him further makes it self known non-the-less.

I speak to people and they say how unfair he is being to me. How I deserve better. I know well meaning people are in his ear telling him he needs to make a decision. And I want them to stop. To just let him be. Because this horrible limbo is better than him being pushed into a decision I hope he still isn't ready to make. I will stay the course though.

On a side note: I was looking at my LinkedIn profile and the girl he was on a date with came up as someone I might know. We work in different industries and have no mutual connections. So the only reason is that she has looked at my profile. I resisted the urge to look at hers . I am better than that. I have not and am not wasting any emotion on her. She is nothing to me but a sideline to me (and I suspect she is the same or him) but it was interesting she has stalked me. His statement "it is only casual, there are no expectations" which I think is true on his side, is definitely not true for her.

Again... I could have written that [minus the bit about the LinkedIn stalker...but give me some time...lol]. I have that exact same worry - that if I look okay, he will take that as a cue to push ahead with lightening speed. But then I am reminded that not looking okay is not attractive to anyone let alone our H's. Human nature is to want something you aren't sure you can have. Being someone's solid Plan B is what creates and encourages the limbo. I KNOW this but it is so darn hard to practice it when my stomach starts churning every time I see him. When we have a good talk, that feelings goes away but, at the same time, I suspect I go back to being a solid Plan B again. That is the hardest part of this whole sitch - that and it feeling a bit like a game to me which is so not me. There are times when I really feel it - that I will be okay and moving on is a good thing. But then there are other times when I just want to feel his arms around me again. I dread that feeling. And I dread not having it too. I guess that is the definition of limbo, isn't it. Anyway...just wanted to send you a ((hug)). Hang in there.

Thanks DejaVu - Right now I don't even think I am the Plan B.

I think his plan A (get a flat, maintain relationship with children, have freedom to go out with friends whenever I want, date) is going swimmingly. Now that I thrown "look I'm getting on fine" into the mix he doesn't even have to worry about me.

Doubts. Today is a day of doubts. Sleepless night last night. Caught H in a lie. Doesn't matter what it was about. It threw me in a spin. This detaching is easier said then done.

When you start detaching is it normal to feel like you are pushing them further and further away ?

I would love to accept H's offer to spend the afternoon with him and the kids at the pumpkin patch. But I know I really shouldn't.

I hate the sleepless nights. I�ve had too many of those these past few weeks. My heart goes out to you FS. I know what you are going through and I get why you would love to accept his offer. My advice would be to only go if you have no expectations. I�ve had a hard time with that. Sometimes expectations are there and you don�t even know it. I am having a doubt-filled evening which I really hope is not going to lead to a sleepless night because I have to get up early to volunteer at a breakfast for the homeless. Hard to believe that four weeks ago, my H was there with me and I was thinking that he was moving back home the next day. Anyway...I need to head off but I wanted to send you some support before I did. Do something nice for yourself today. Take are of you. (((HUGS)))

I have said no to the pumpkin patch thing. I didn't know I'd say no until I spoke to him today. He just sounded so darn normal about everything that I knew I couldn't face him today.

When I said I wasn't going to come, he practically hung up on me. He didn't even ask if I wanted to talk to the kids. Just went, OK, well I'm leaving at 2 so make sure you're here at 2 to take over. I replied that I wasn't going to base my time on when he left and if his mum called to let me know when she was ready for the kids to be picked up I would come and get them. He went ok, by and hung up. I couldn't even get a word in edge ways. He had his own expectations and got angry when I didn't fit in with them.

I don't know about you DejaVu, but this detachment thing feels very very wrong. I get the pursuit and distance dance. it makes sense. But what happens if both parties are taking the role of distancer ??

I think you are right... he totally had expectations of you coming with him. I get about not being able to face him too. Yesterday I just needed to leave. Today I came home from my volunteer work and he was at home checking in on the kids (their grandma has gone for a couple of days). He got a big smile on his face when he saw me. Made me wonder if the smile was because he was genuinely happy to see me or if it he thinks the best defense is a good offense and if he smiles, I can�t be made at him. I hope it is the former but it could just as easily be the latter. Anyway, I gave him a few ideas (errands) he could do with the kids and he happily went off to do them. Tomorrow is technically his day and he told me he is thinking about taking them river fishing. I reminded him we still have a half bottle of wine left from Tuesday and he said we will have to finish it off soon. I almost invited him to dinner but stopped myself... detach, detach, detach.

Speaking of... I know what you mean about it feeling wrong. I think my H�s and I biggest problem in our marriage was that we did not interact with each other enough. We were ships that passed in the night (mostly his fault because he was running away to his boat/garage) but even before then, we got into this habit of �tag teaming� on the child care. We had a big house with a lot of upkeep to do and both of us had long commutes so would try to cram everything into the weekend. Usually that meant he would take off with the kids for an afternoon and I would do laundry, vacuuming, etc... What I realize now is that we would have been far better off to get the housework done first and then go somewhere together but hindsight is always 20/20. We were also living pay cheque to pay cheque despite both having good careers because we were living in the most expensive neighbourhood in the country (where he grew up) which didn�t help as we were never really able to go anywhere or have too many date nights. In short, we focused on the kids and our home and really just ignored our relationship - took it for granted. I knew it on some level but just kept telling myself we could �fix it� when the kids got bigger and more independent and we had more $. Well...that time has arrived and look where we are. No one ever said life was fair. So...longwinded answer to your question. Yes...it does feel wrong. In my case because I think distancing is what got us here in the first place. A 180 for me would be paying more attention to my H, not less. But... I think that is only if he were still living with me. I think because he is gone, I need to detach...for me and my sanity. Lately I�ve been telling myself that he isn�t coming back. I don�t fully believe that yet...but I really need to start getting used to the idea so I am not completely devastated when/if it becomes clear that is the way this is heading. If I were you, I would probably say �yes� to the next invitation that comes my way. It is that difficult balancing act of detaching but still leaving the door open. I think you can feel good about saying �no� today. He got a clear message - you aren�t just sitting around waiting for him to pay you some attention. You have a life too. I guarantee you that your �no� made an impact. Make sure you thank him for the invite and tell him that you would have loved to have gone but you already had made plans. Keeps the door open for another invitation, I think.

Gotta run. I�m getting my nails done while my H is out with the kids. Factoring in the 8 hour difference in our time zones, I imagine you are winding down your day. Hope you had a good one and did something nice for yourself. (((HUGS)))

DejaVu - ships in the night and playing tag team with childcare sounds exactly like where H and I were. We bought a big house (his choice - H was always aspirational) we couldn't really afford. Pretty much all my pay went into paying the mortgage. I was Ok with it as I knew his income would go up and he would be able to contribute more financially. I also thought that when the kids got bigger the ships in the night would end and we could start spending 'couple' time together. His salary finally matched mine a few years ago, but no additional contribution. We could trust them with babysitters and not just family - but by then it was too late. I didn't physically lose my for four years before BD but he was definitely depressed in the 6-12 months before. So, I lost him emotionally. Still BD was a huge shock for me.

Journaling .... My MIL just dropped the kids off and we had a conversation about H. I said all the right things (I think). He is still a good man. He is prioritizing the kids. We are fortunate that it is amicable.

She told me he has spoken to her about the OW (at her request). He didn't tell her much. He showed her a picture. MIL commented that she looks like me but a more ordinary version. He told her it is not serious but he suspects she might have other ideas. MIL primary concern is OW will accidentally get pregnant. My H's profession makes him marketable marriage material. H told her not to worry, that he was upfront from the start - he did not want more kids, he is not looking for commitment and that he will always put his kids first.

Apparently OW was OK with all of this. She also does not want kids. She also does not want commitment. She is fine that his kids come first and his job second. Firstly ... WTF ... she is a woman in her thirty's who does not want kids (possible but who in your 30's can say they will never want kids), does not want any form of commitment and is happy to be third on his list of priorities (yes, I am happy that you just want me for sex whenever you can make time for me). Note: I did not say any of this. I just said ... I hope he knows what he is getting himself in for.

*** removes her self from yet another cheeseless tunnel ***

I had a lovely afternoon by myself as H had the girls overnight and then took them to his mums for pumpkin picking - then his mum had them the rest of the day. I didn't do very much. Watched TV. Meditated a little. Lurked on the forum on and off. Took my time making a healthy dinner for one from scratch. Doesn't sound like much but before H moved out I was never on my own at home. Weekends were always rushing from one place to another. At home it was always me and the girls, or me the girls and H. It took me a while to get use to the emptiness. I really like it now.

H is coming around at 8 tomorrow to take D12 to football. Though, H is out tonight so not sure how he thinks he can be sober enough to drive at 8 in the morning. MIL was concerned as well and asked him today if he thought he would be fine to drive. He said he was only having a few drinks. When he lived at home and went out with the lads he is going out with tonight, he was normally still sleeping at lunch time. My H cannot stick to one drink. He is the guy buying shots at 10:00 and then insisting everyone stay for one more drink at the end of the night. MIL thinks he is probably either not going to be able to do the pick up in the morning (because of his inability to say no to a drink) or he is out on a date with OW and doesn't want to tell us.

Hmmnnn ... I think I may pass on the football tomorrow if/when he comes around. I don't want to face his hangover (he will be cranky and overly sensitive) or if he is not hungover, then I will know he was with her, and I will be cranky and overly sensitive ... and unable to tell him why ... because I am not supposed to care.

Hi FS. Wouldn�t it be nice if were the type of women who could use another person to escape from our pain without feeling like it is incredibly wrong?? Can you imagine the relief? The problem is, I can also imagine the mess it would eventually lead to. Re: your H�s OW. I don�t believe her for a second. That�s the kind of thing you tell someone at the start of a relationship [and convince yourself of too] in order to rope them in. As the relationship goes on, she will want more and the pressure will increase. Try not to think of the OW too much. She really means nothing. As soon as she starts to make demands of him, he will run. No doubt.

My H has assured me numerous times and seems very sincere that he is not dating...just trying to figure himself out. If that is the case, I�m glad. If it is not, I wish I knew because I think I would be more motivated to move on at a faster rate. One thing I am sure of though is that there are no more kids in his future. After the twins were born, he volunteered to get a vasectomy and then, later, go figure, blamed me for it (one of his complaints on BD #1). So crazy cause I never even thought about it at the time. But that is how history gets rewritten, I suppose.

Got home from getting my nails done and the kids were home by themselves. Not a huge deal as they are pretty good on their own for an hour or two but it still bugs me that he can�t seem to stick around with them longer than a few hours or wait until I get home before he leaves. But...he is always in a rush to get back to what, I will never really understand.

So glad you had a nice evening to yourself and that you made yourself a meal. I have a hard time making myself anything other than a salad. I stopped by my favourite deli and bought one of their mini meatloafs. Think I will pop that in the oven and have a nice salad and a glass of wine. A nice date with me...lol.

Sweet dreams FS. Hope you have a great day tomorrow. (((HUGS)))

Hi Flysolo, I am following your thread and see so many similarities, except you are a little further along. I feel with you when you talk about family time without you, I feel the same about our marriages, that we did not pay enough attention to one another and lived parallel lives and it hurts so much to see, that they have given up the R, when I see that we could do better. Hope is still there, which is helpful and painful at the same time. I hope you enjoy the rest of the weekend.

Hi Kiwi - I am so sorry you are going through what you are going through. I see parallels in our sitch's as well. I can say that the pain isn't constant anymore, but when it does hit, it is still as intense. I have not yet given up hope.

If your H is anything like mine, MO was as painful for him as it was for me. He said two weeks after MO "I am happier now" and did another (he was at the house more in the two weeks after MO then he was in the two months before). My cleaner told me the other day that the day after H moved out, he was in the MBR and when he came out his eyes were red like he'd been crying/ He was carrying the box of photos that I had taken down the night before (all the photos of us in frames).

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

Hi FS. Wouldnt it be nice if were the type of women who could use another person to escape from our pain without feeling like it is incredibly wrong??

I was that kind of woman once. Whilst I have nothing against casual sex, right now I couldn't do. I am not in the right frame of mind emotionally. I would be doing it to feel validated and, once the high wore off, I would feel dirty. I think I mentioned the long term relationship before H. We were together from around 14. We split for a year in my early 20's and I went a little off the rails. When we got back together I couldn't be intimate with him. I convinced myself it was because I wasn't attracted to him. It wasn't because sleeping with any of the other men whilst we were apart made me feel dirty, it wasn't because my ex made me feel dirty. It was because somehow, in my subconscious, sleeping with him, after all I had done, would make him dirty. Funny how the mind works.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

Re: your Hs OW. I dont believe her for a second. Thats the kind of thing you tell someone at the start of a relationship [and convince yourself of too] in order to rope them in. As the relationship goes on, she will want more and the pressure will increase. Try not to think of the OW too much. She really means nothing. As soon as she starts to make demands of him, he will run. No doubt.
(((HUGS)))

I agree entirely.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

Try not to think of the OW too much. She really means nothing. As soon as she starts to make demands of him, he will run. No doubt. (((HUGS)))

I am not worrying about her. I know this is going to bite him in the [censored]

Journal ..

H did manage to pick up D12 for football yesterday though he was about 30 mins late. I got a text simply saying "I'll be there in 20 mins. Make sure D12 is ready". I did not go to football with them. He looked a bit shocked "you're not coming ??" but as it was cold and wet outside I said it didn't seem fair to make D8 stand in a field for a couple of hours. He said when he got back that we could have sat in the car. He so much still wants us to be a family. When he gets annoyed at my not doing things with them, a part of me thinks that family he wants to be a part of still includes me.

I think he was telling the truth about meeting his mates. He mentioned without prompting who was there and told me how some of them are doing. That doesn't mean she wasn't there. We were inseparable until we had D12. We went everywhere together. When D12 was born I became a mum and gave up certain things. H became a dad. His sacrifices weren't the same though. There is no blame in that statement. We just couldn't both go out, so I stayed home. At first it was practical, then it became habit. That was my choice, and I would do it again but I would maybe make some time for us too.

I am away on a last minute business trip. It has been a very long day. I have always avoided going away for business. H always made me feel guilty for it. I don't think he was consciously even aware that he didn't like it. I was asked to do this trip late last Friday. It is only for one day but means that I had to stay overnight Sunday, do a day here and then back Monday night. I asked H if he could have the girls Sunday night. He said no, he already had plans - apparently one of the guys that he saw sat night was staying an extra night.

Thankfully MIL agreed to do have the girls last night. We weren't able to get through the work today, so am staying over tonight and heading back tomorrow. H was always supposed to have them tonight, so at least that's one battle I don't have to have.

Whilst I was in the city last night, I called a girlfriend I haven't seen in a while and we went out for a late supper. I never would have met up with her (as I wouldn't have agreed to the trip) if H and I were still together. We went for tapas and talked industry gossip. It was a really nice night.

Whilst it's positive I am making decision for myself, I know that he hates that he is losing control over me. I don't know if that makes him more likely, or less likely to come back to me.

Some positives ... there are ways that I feel we are getting closer. We talk now. He seems genuinely interested in what I have been doing. He initiates small talk about nothing much. He volunteers information (though I know is careful about what he tells me). I did a 180 and asked him to look at something in my car. Turned out it was user error

. I would not have asked for his help before (I would have asked FIL next time I saw him) but for some reason I did, and normally he would huff and look at me like I'm stupid but just went 'there you go'. I still feel the rise in temperature when I do something that he doesn't expect me to do (like going away for a business trip, saying no when he asks me to join them) but I also see him trying to hold it in check.

I think Db is working in that it is moving us one step closer to being friends. I still have expectations though ... so I guess I stay on my detaching horse until either the expectations are no more or he shows me he wants to try and work things out.

That all sounds really positive FS. Small steps, right? I think losing control of you make him more likely to come back. However, not to the same marriage. If your H wants to reconcile, he is going to have to make some changes. FS is not a woman who is controlled by anyone except her own fabulous self!! :-D

I think you are doing really well. He volunteers that info, IMO, because he wants you to know that he isn't out with OW. Who knows what the motivation is but there IS a motivation and that seems the most obvious. My H rarely volunteers information when he isn't asked so when he does, I take note. He wants me to know it for some reason.

I can really relate to your comments about how having your D12 changed the dynamic between the two of you. That was me and my H too. We spent a lot of time together prior to our kids and after, it was with our kids or barely ever. That, of course, took its toll on our relationship and I was aware of it, on some level. I think I just convinced myself that since I was aware of it and had decided within myself to just accept it until the kids were more independent [not blaming anyone except the situation], I assumed he was doing the same thing. Apparently not. Apparently he saw it as marrying the wrong person or falling out of love, etc... and he became angry and resentful and started to detach to the point that he says he has "pressed pause on [his] heart". How one does that, I have no idea. Not sure I am capable.

Anyway...keep up the good work. You sound like you are doing really well overall!!

Hi DejaV -

I agree that he tells me so I know he isn't with her. Not sure why either. His mum telling me he showed her a picture of OW on his phone threw me for a bit. Photos are a very couply thing to do. I don't know the context of the photo so (probably) may be reading too much into it.

I called the kids earlier and it was kind of weird talking to the them and then not speaking to him after. Normally it is him calling the girls. I would get so disappointed every time he would hang up without speaking to me. I am use to it now. I didn't not talk to him because I wanted to show him how it felt. I just think it would be weird.

Hi - how was your day.
Good thanks, how was yours
Ok ... well bye.

I could hear him in the background giving D8 the answers to the questions I was asking.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

We spent a lot of time together prior to our kids and after, it was with our kids or barely ever. That, of course, took its toll on our relationship and I was aware of it, on some level.

I had no interest standing in bars or dancing in clubs until the early hours (what we use to do together) once the children were born. They were, and still are, my everything. I use to think he was selfish because his life didn't change as much as mine. He probably felt I abandoned him during those early years, so went out more, which in turn made me resentful . Maybe I could have paid him more attention. We (H and I) both made bad choices.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

Apparently he saw it as marrying the wrong person or falling out of love, etc... and he became angry and resentful and started to detach to the point that he says he has "pressed pause on [his] heart". How one does that, I have no idea. Not sure I am capable.

Did you read the story about the WAW spouse putting her heart in a box (it is in R2C's quotes thread and I think it was SmartCookie who posted it). It fits some WAH's as well. The causes are different (I suspect for some men its that feeling of being abandoned by their W once the kids arrive) but the symptoms are the same.

I didn't read that story. It would be great if I could. Do you know how I could find it? I'm afraid I haven't quite mastered the ins and outs of this site yet. My H and I were past the bar stage by the time we had kids but we used to go out to dinner a few times a week...watch hockey games together on the tv...get together with friends to play poker, go to martial arts classes three times a week, etc... all of that pretty much came to a screeching halt when the twins were born. Part of it was that we were exhausted but it was also a finances thing once the kids were in daycare and we were paying as much or more than most people we knew were paying for mortgages. It was a big hit. One thing that happened that my H has NEVER forgiven me for is that I went into a bit of a new-mom panic and started worrying our house [his childhood home] wasn't big enough. We ended up selling it and buying a bigger one about five minutes away [more debt] and at the time, I thought he was in agreement. However, his recollection is that it was all my idea and he had no say and that he did not want to sell. That was nine years ago and we now own a dream home free and clear because of the sale of our second home and it is STILL on his top three list of things I've done he resents me for. He was super enthusiastic (did not hesitate to say "yes" and that he was sick of living in the city) about selling the second time and moving to a new community but I would not be surprised if five years down the road, he remembers that as being something he was forced into doing and something else to be mad at me for.

I think you may be right about the feeling abandoned part. Another thing on his top three list is when I briefly entertained the idea of being a surrogate for my twin sister who was unable to have kids because of cancer treatments. Because I am her identical twin, I got the idea that it would be just like her having her own kids and got quite excited about the idea. When I told my H, regrettably, I may have been too enthusiastic and he got quite upset with me. I had expected him to be supportive so it threw me when he was the opposite. He even wanted to go to counselling because of it. I told him I didn't think we needed counselling and that maybe he did. In hindsight, that was the exact wrong thing to do and I figured that out down the road but in the end, I decided not to do it so I thought it was a non-issue. WRONG. Six years later, it was the second thing (after the selling of his childhood home) that he brought up to the MC we saw one time. If you asked him today, he would tell you that he is STILL upset about it.

I find it interesting that so many men struggle with becoming parents. I think as women, when we carry our kids for nine months and our bodies change so much, we become acutely aware that life is going to be different. It's almost like we use the time spent being pregnant to adjust to it and come to terms with the fact that our lives are about to change. Men don't really have that experience. They see their wife is getting bigger and anticipate the birth but their lives are barely impacted as they can continue to do what they have always done. I'm not sure my H was really prepared and having twins made it even harder as I counted on him a lot more than I might have with one baby. Anyway... points to ponder...

It is 4:40 where I am so I think 12:40 a.m. where you are? Hope you have a great sleep and lots of fun with your daughters when you see them next. (((HUGS)))

Wow... I just read the story about the heart in a box. It really hit home. I believe my H thinks he did try with us. Not in the same way I would have tried, but I know he did not get to this place overnight. Lots to think about. Thank-you for telling me about that FS. (((HUGS)))

DejaVu - When I read your post re "putting a pause on his hear" it made me think of the story above.

When I first read the story it reminded me of when D8 was around 2. That is exactly how I felt. I remember feeling trapped but having to hang in there for the children. I grew cold and resentful. I hated being touched by him. The feeling went away after about a year and I thought we were back on track. I never got to the latter stages described in the story but I think on some level and that was probably where his feeling of abandonment started. Hindsight is sometimes not a benefit.

I agree (though accept there are always exceptions): when women first become parents their life changes completely. It is after D12 was born that I became a light sleeper. There was a sixth sense - I would wake up before she started to cry. When they started getting out of bed in the middle of the night, I would wake before their feet hit the ground.

Journal

I have just arrived home. H had taken the kids to a trampolining place so they were still out. I was planning on joining them, but when I called, they were already putting their shoes on, so wasn't worth going.

D8 is still on holidays so H has been spending time with her in the house. Whilst his been here he has sorted through some of D12's old clothes to see what might fit D8, sorted and put out the winter scarves, gloves and hats, and taken out the Halloween decorations ready to put out tomorrow. He has been busy.

He also invited his niece (7) over tomorrow to go trick or treating with the girls. Apparently his mum, his brothers GF and his brother's niece were also at trampoling. His brother's GF and his brother had a fight last night and she was very emotional. His brother and his GF are very hot headed so there was a lot of stuff said in front of their daughter (the 'C' word being one of them). So he (or his mum) invited the niece over tomorrow so the GF could have some time on her own.

I am not sure how I feel about this. I probably would have made the offer to have his niece around tomorrow had I been with them. But somehow, I don't think it is his place to invite people round to the house anymore.

I also asked him if he wanted to stay for dinner. He said the girls had already eaten and he wanted to the get to the gym. I agree with Sandi, we are probably wrong about 80% of the time when we suspect they are lying. Means we are right 20% of the time though. The rational side of me says that why stress myself out trying to work out whether this time it is the 20% or the 80%.

I was expecting him to ask how my trip was but he didn't. I thanked him for watching the girls and for sorting through the stuff. He did not mention he probably saw the cigarette butts in an old flower pot or the late payment notice for one of my bills (I am not very good at life admin and he always hated it). So, we both 180'd a little. I maybe over-egged the niceness and this scared him off as he seemed in a rush to go. Either that or he was desperate to get to the gym.

In any case, he said he will be back at 7:30 tomorrow morning to take our dog for a walk then drive D12 to school. He said that way I don't have to drag D8 out. I am WFH tomorrow and he said he would drop by and spend some time with D8 so that I could get some work done. D8 is still on holidays, so he said he would look after her Thurs and Friday as well and then also on the weekend.

On the topic of seeing him all the time ... I got the childcare schedule for November and he has asked to either see them during the day or have them overnight about 70% of the days He is going away for a week to visit a (male) friend and even then he has asked for them 12 nights. With his week away, working and seeing the girls, I don't know how he is going to fit OW in ?!?!?

Maybe he isn't going to visit his friend. I wonder if he is building a case for 50/50 ??

But, those questions represent the entrance to a cheeseless tunnel, right?

My trip itself was pretty good. Two days was not quite enough to really enjoy being there but the change in scenery was good. I missed the girls though. I missed H too. But I am use to missing him. It is a dull ache at the back of my chest as opposed to something at the forefront.

Geez... this is tough. Cheeseless tunnels... it seems there are many. I stand in front of them all of the time. Some I go down - usually when I haven�t had the time to run things by the people on this board...lol. Pay attention to that rational side of you. That�s usually the side that knows what to do. No point in wondering and no point in asking because they can always lie about things. With all of the time spent with kids, etc... you are right, not much time for OW. That will make her mad soon enough and then the pressure will start. Be the lighthouse. That is something she will not be nor could she be. She is not his wife...she�s just a distraction from himself.

Your H sounds like he is being pretty nice and accommodating. Offering to spend time with your D8 so you can get some work done? Positive signs, I think. Just keep doing what you are doing. I think you are doing great. Your description of it being a dull ache now resonated with me. I feel the same way. Looking forward to the day that the ache is gone altogether. (((HUGS)))

Urghhhh ... I did a search for him on instigram the other day and he came up. He used his name and picture so it wasnt too difficult. It was private though - 6 posts, 0 followers and 1 following, It didnt male sense to me at the time. Why post if no-one was following ???

it clicked tonight. He hashtags his photos so anyone who knows about the hashtag can view them. I checked again today and its gone up to 8 posts. why is he so secretive. I have an account, his Ds have am account and all our photos are available to his extended family !!!

He is so effing secretive about everything. There's prob nothing in it. He is probably sharing photos with a group of industry based friends I've never really gotten on with.

That is my H exactly. Everything is a HUGE secret. Of course, now that I know he has told me approximately 10,000 lies over the past four years, I completely understand it. Hard to maintain a lie if you give away too much information.

He told me he went off Facebook a couple of years ago yet every once in awhile, I find out from a friend or relative that they have seen posts by him. Whenever that happened, I would search for him and not be able to find him. I would ask him and he would tell me that he reactivated his account to post and then deactivated it again. Huh? No one does that. I saw a couple of the posts and they were pretty benign and under his name. In August when his cousin was visiting, it happened again. This time I told him to stop screwing around and that I knew he must have blocked me. He started blaming Facebook and then even claimed to have tried to add me as a friend but was unable to. Yeah...�cause I was born yesterday. Why am I the only person you can�t add? You MUST have blocked me at some point. Nope...he would NOT admit it. I have confronted him a few times now and it is always the same response. Getting super upset at Facebook and claiming innocence. I no longer look for him. As MWD says... it is a cheeseless tunnel.

Just got back from my kids� Hallowe�en dance. What a zoo!! My H apparently went last year. I feel bad that I didn�t go with him. More tag teaming childcare duties that helped get us to this place of separation or, as he calls it, �taking a break�. I think he described it to his daughter like it was a mutual thing. Speaking of... she called me yesterday in tears. Found out her boyfriend had been cheating on her with a mutual friend. I told my H she and I are going to spend the weekend �bashing� men but that it was up to him to come over and help her understand why men are such jerks. Couldn�t help myself.

Found out today that because we share an Apple ID, my daughter has been getting some of the texts between my H and I. My H is going to fix that tomorrow. I looked over what she has. A few recent ones that are pretty benign and some from February. The ones from February were a bit tought to read knowing what I know now. They were very amicable with �I love you�s� on both sides. H went back to his secret life about three weeks after that. Sigh... from �I love you� to �I couldn�t stand living with you anymore� in a matter of weeks. Crazy.

I am over my little instigram freak our. Am pretty sure he is just sharing photos from nights with friends. He went out with a load of them sat night and there were two new photos posted. I think he hasn't told anyone amour his account because 1. He is naturally secretive and 2 because he doesnt want to hurt me or cause argument and 3 he avoids conflict

He came around this morning and apparently a male friend of mine looked at his Linkedin profile. this gave me the opportunity to tell him the girl he was on a date with looked at mine. He seemed shocked. Couldnt work out how she found me. air isnt that hard. You google his name and it shows everyone he has ever shared a home with.

Please start a new thread and link this thread to your new one and vice versa. Many thanks!

New thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2820179#Post2820179