ambivalent WW - detach? -- Part 3

Old thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2808039&page=11

Turns out there's skydiving based out of the tiny airport in town. Asked W if she wants to go with. She isn't opposed to the idea...

You should have thrown in "Parachutes optional. "

She said, let me think about it, I've been feeling kind of low lately.

Not my problem, but I validated and offered to listen if she wants to talk about it.

MC tomorrow. Perfect weather Friday. Will need to force a decision, at least about the skydiving...

Originally Posted by Steve85

You should have thrown in "Parachutes optional. "

Love it!

My first thought was, "Feeling low? Get high in the sky!" Which is not the appropriate response to someone sharing that they are feeling low, and probably why I've gotten myself into a lot of trouble. Validation is much better, good job.

Originally Posted by STH17

My first thought was, "Feeling low? Get high in the sky!" Which is not the appropriate response to someone sharing that they are feeling low, and probably why I've gotten myself into a lot of trouble. Validation is much better, good job.

Yes, validate! But she never responds. Me: "I'm always here if you want to talk about it." Her: "Thanks." That's the standard response any time I say something nice.

Hoping she meant that skydiving would cheer her up. I suspect she means that she doesn't want to do it because she is feeling low. One never knows with this creature, but usually "Let me think about it" usually means no.

So, GAL for me, it's going to happen with or without her. But she is well aware that I am doing something I said I never wanted to do, ever. But I had a birthday and an awakening, and I am moving on with my life. Yolo.

On a side note, the legal documents I need to sign are somewhat...disquieting.

Originally Posted by burned

So, GAL for me, it's going to happen with or without her. But she is well aware that I am doing something I said I never wanted to do, ever. But I had a birthday and an awakening, and I am moving on with my life. Yolo.

Maybe she sees it as a manipulation attempt? "See how much I've changed!"

Oh.

I told her I was trying to branch out and face my fears...

Originally Posted by burned

Oh.

I told her I was trying to branch out and face my fears...

That's fine, BUT, deep down are you doing it for you, or are you doing it for her benefit? I've written extensively about how the WAS KNOWS if something is being done for their benefit. And they do know.

Believe it or not, I was feeling good this morning and said, hey, how about for GAL I do something crazy that I've never done before. So I thought of it. And THEN I read Sandi's rules which stated that I can invite W to participate in activities with me but I will do them with or without her. So I invited her. Not sure why, but it felt more genuine than manipulative. It's definitely a 180, and that would be obvious to anyone who knows me.

I actually think it might have come across as slightly more manipulative if I did it and then made an announcement about it in MC.

Steve, if you read the time stamps on my posts you'll see definite daily patterns in what I worry about. So here I am at 2 PM and it's time to worry about OM.

How do I resist the temptation to do Option B? Everyone seems to think I'd be stupid not to assert myself. The more I think about it, especially after reviewing the chapter in DR, is that her ambivalence isn't really about me. It's about her, and OM "waiting in the wings." She will be seeing him again in a couple of weeks, and she will then have an opportunity, without anybody knowing, to ask him about how things are going with his W. Certainly if he is S from his W then it would give my W permission to proceed. It's gnawing at me.

What do I do in MC tomorrow? Do I wait and see if it comes up? Do I do what DR recommends and just let it keep happening until it runs out on its own? By October it will have been a year, off-and-on. BD was something I instigated, so the A didn't really end, it went dormant without her consent. Then it came back and went dormant again. I don't think her head is clear of it yet, and I think that's the number one obstacle. MC believes her lies, "This has nothing to do with him!" But it's starting to make a whole lot of sense.

What advice do you have to help me get through the second half of my day? Do I take the high road? I mean, if you have nothing to hide, why do you refuse to provide any evidence that you're not hiding anything? Should I push for a little accountability in exchange for my ongoing efforts, or will that backfire?

Originally Posted by burned

Believe it or not, I was feeling good this morning and said, hey, how about for GAL I do something crazy that I've never done before. So I thought of it. And THEN I read Sandi's rules which stated that I can invite W to participate in activities with me but I will do them with or without her. So I invited her. Not sure why, but it felt more genuine than manipulative. It's definitely a 180, and that would be obvious to anyone who knows me.

I actually think it might have come across as slightly more manipulative if I did it and then made an announcement about it in MC.

As long as you are being honest with yourself about it. You don't have to prove anything to me!

Originally Posted by burned

Steve, if you read the time stamps on my posts you'll see definite daily patterns in what I worry about. So here I am at 2 PM and it's time to worry about OM.

How do I resist the temptation to do Option B? Everyone seems to think I'd be stupid not to assert myself. The more I think about it, especially after reviewing the chapter in DR, is that her ambivalence isn't really about me. It's about her, and OM "waiting in the wings." She will be seeing him again in a couple of weeks, and she will then have an opportunity, without anybody knowing, to ask him about how things are going with his W. Certainly if he is S from his W then it would give my W permission to proceed. It's gnawing at me.

What do I do in MC tomorrow? Do I wait and see if it comes up? Do I do what DR recommends and just let it keep happening until it runs out on its own? By October it will have been a year, off-and-on. BD was something I instigated, so the A didn't really end, it went dormant without her consent. Then it came back and went dormant again. I don't think her head is clear of it yet, and I think that's the number one obstacle. MC believes her lies, "This has nothing to do with him!" But it's starting to make a whole lot of sense.

What advice do you have to help me get through the second half of my day? Do I take the high road? I mean, if you have nothing to hide, why do you refuse to provide any evidence that you're not hiding anything? Should I push for a little accountability in exchange for my ongoing efforts, or will that backfire?

Here is the thing: IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM! OM is an easy target of your wrath. But he doesn't care about you and you don't care about him. It is a cheeseless tunnel.

The thing is that the DR book is right. 99.75% of A run their natural course and then die out. Either one AP doesn't want to leave their marriage, or they find out that they are incompatible in some way. Most As are built on sex and sex is NOT a sustaining factor in long-term Rs. I mean just look at all of the SSMs that are long-term! I am not a huge fan of Dr. Phil but he has a saying: when the MR is good sex is about 10% of the R....when the MR is bad sex becomes about 90% of the MR. In other words, it isn't that important until there are problems and then one or both spouses start to complain about the sexual problems in the MR.

So to get through the 2nd half of day think about what makes you awesome! It is obsessing about her and OM? Or is it being assured that you are going to be ok.....better than ok....AWESOME even no matter what happens. In fact, you are going to be so awesome that no matter what happens in 2 weeks she'd be a completely idiotic moronic foolish imbecile to choose ANY OM over you!

So how do you get your awesome on? Jumping out of a plane is a good start. How about going into MC upbeat, happy, pleased, pleasant and present! Go out and do something for you tonight. Run 10 miles, or bike for 20 miles, or find a place that rent boats (if they are open that late) and go kayaking or canoeing. Find out if there are any events at your local library and go hang out with some total strangers. Go sign up for some fall classes at a local community college. Or at the community center. Are you an athlete? Find a drop in basketball night! Get out there and be awesome!

You are awesome. I want to be more like you. So that's what I'm going to try to do.

Confidence. It will show through at MC, along with a slightly detached vibe of, "Yup, I like me, you can like me if you want, or not. I won't die either way."

On the issue of OM, it began as an EA and sex was secondary. In fact it took them a while to get there. My W, when she falls, she falls HARD. Took her 2 years to get me. And after she falls, she DOESN'T let go. It works in my favor, kind of. So yeah, I think what might end up happening is that he will push her to leave me for him (she tells me that he started pushing for that about 1 month into their A, and she repeatedly asked him to drop it because that was not something she would consider at the time), and she will continue to balk. If she is as stubborn with him as she has been with me, he'll move on. He doesn't have 11 years of memories with her.

PMA!

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Confidence. It will show through at MC, along with a slightly detached vibe of, "Yup, I like me, you can like me if you want, or not. I won't die either way."

OH MY GOODNESS. This is perfect. If you can pull that off you'll have her eating out of your hand. In fact, any LBH, if he can do this well, puts himself in great shape.

Originally Posted by Steve85

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Confidence. It will show through at MC, along with a slightly detached vibe of, "Yup, I like me, you can like me if you want, or not. I won't die either way."

OH MY GOODNESS. This is perfect. If you can pull that off you'll have her eating out of your hand. In fact, any LBH, if he can do this well, puts himself in great shape.

I thought I had it down last week, but I got roped into my own concerns about halfway through. And she will see through it, or at least try to.

Well, looks like I'm in the friend zone now, and we will keep "trying."

Time to buckle down for the marathon.

This stinks.

So make friend zone a boundary. If she has friend zoned you why continue MC?

"I�m not in a rush to file paperwork or anything. If you want to keep trying, understanding that we�ll be friends for a while, we can do that."

"I generally feel pretty ok living by myself. I�m not trying to 'dump' you and move on. I know you are working hard and that change takes time. If you�re willing to live separately and keep talking, that might be ok with me. But you have to understand that maybe we�ll be just friends for a while."

One more MC session next week, it was already scheduled, she still wants to go. Probably just to wrap things up.

Is this the part where I need to GAL and see if she gets interested now that the stakes are higher and there's even less pressure?

Is this the part where I need to GAL and see if she gets interested now that the stakes are higher and there's even less pressure?
burned,
Yes this is the part you need to GAL- NOT to see if she gets interested but to evolve into the best you possible. IF she get interested now that you have become [b]AWESOME.[/b] Then you must continue on your path to AWESOMENESS. Good luck on your journey

Originally Posted by burned

"I�m not in a rush to file paperwork or anything. If you want to keep trying, understanding that we�ll be friends for a while, we can do that."

"I generally feel pretty ok living by myself. I�m not trying to 'dump' you and move on. I know you are working hard and that change takes time. If you�re willing to live separately and keep talking, that might be ok with me. But you have to understand that maybe we�ll be just friends for a while."

I'm assuming both of these quotes are her to you? Do you see who has all the control here? HER. Do you see who is happily camped out as a Plan B for her? YOU. Do you know what kind of progress you can expect in this scenario? NONE. You will ALWAYS be Plan B if you let this continue. TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR LIFE. That's why we keep pushing GAL, because it's you taking some control back (and eventually, all of it back). If she says something like this again here is how you should respond: "Sorry W but I am not interested in being friends with you. We can't go from a long term marriage to being friends, that won't work for me. If you eventually decide you want to be more than friends then I will see where I am at that time and we can discuss it then and decide if it's worth pursuing."

I get very frustrated reading about how crappy many of the WAS's are treating their LBS and how the LBS just keeps going back with big ol' puppy eyes begging for scraps. You are worth WAY more than her little scraps of attention.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

[quote=burned]I get very frustrated reading about how crappy many of the WAS's are treating their LBS and how the LBS just keeps going back with big ol' puppy eyes begging for scraps. You are worth WAY more than her little scraps of attention.

AMEN TO THAT BROTHER!!!!!!!

Loving it! Thanks guys. Feeling a lot more awesome as the day goes on.

Originally Posted by Steve85

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Confidence. It will show through at MC, along with a slightly detached vibe of, "Yup, I like me, you can like me if you want, or not. I won't die either way."

OH MY GOODNESS. This is perfect. If you can pull that off you'll have her eating out of your hand. In fact, any LBH, if he can do this well, puts himself in great shape.

I think maybe I hit that point fairly recently. Here's where I'm at:

In MC last week, she finally said she doesn't think she can go on. So MC is done. We can't file for D until December at the earliest (have to have been living apart for 6 months). The thought is terrifying, and there's nothing I can do about it. Does this still count as limbo?

So I detached, big time, since I really had no other option at this point. Not the kind of detachment I was doing before. It feels more real. And then we spent some time together over the weekend, believe it or not. Suddenly she's acting different. I know I can't read too much into it. Maybe a bit more sad (could be because of grief now that she feels she has made a decision), definitely a bit more interested. Sending texts for no particular reason (I don't text her unless she texts first).

Fine, OK. But nothing is guaranteed. My life has to go on, and it will. Is she sad because she is losing me? Maybe. Does that mean she is having second thoughts? Who knows. Does it affect how I will spend my week? Nope. I am all confidence, at least for now. It's either that, or keep waiting and wallowing and suffering. Now I get to take back control of my life, my time, my job, my sense of self. This is taking more strength and patience than I thought I had in me. But discovering what I have in me, that I didn't think I had, is a really good feeling. It's starting to feel like I'm doing it for me. The pain/sadness comes and goes, but I push through it because I have to.

Detachment really works. First, it works to help you move on no matter what. Secondly it works that when you really do it well, the WAS will respond positively almost always.

Just keep DBing. And detaching. Don't let up.

Originally Posted by Steve85

... ... the WAS will respond positively almost always.

I almost jumped all over that one. But then I wouldn't really be DBing if I was concerned with how she reacts.

But, on the off chance that she does respond...how would I know? I mean, she isn't going to run up to me and say, "I'm sorry, I was wrong, let's do this thing." And I'm probably wrong but I feel like there's a difference of opinion on this board between taking the crumbs or waiting until there's some kind of commitment. What does the commitment look like?

In other words, how do I know when to stop thinking of the crumbs as crumbs?

And I'm starting to get the whole thing about "It feels wrong but it works." It feels SO wrong, from the perspective of "It will win her back." But it seems to feel right in terms of taking care of myself.

SO I guess I didn't make my point well enough. The point I was making was that IF you detach FOR YOU, she will likely respond positively. But when you try to detach to get her to respond positively she will know you are trying to manipulate here.

And trust me, when she reacts positively YOU WILL KNOW. She will make sure you know.

Originally Posted by burned

But, on the off chance that she does respond...how would I know? I mean, she isn't going to run up to me and say, "I'm sorry, I was wrong, let's do this thing."

Originally Posted by Steve85

And trust me, when she reacts positively YOU WILL KNOW. She will make sure you know.

This is a head shot!

Originally Posted by neffer

Originally Posted by burned

But, on the off chance that she does respond...how would I know? I mean, she isn't going to run up to me and say, "I'm sorry, I was wrong, let's do this thing."

Originally Posted by Steve85

And trust me, when she reacts positively YOU WILL KNOW. She will make sure you know.

This is a head shot!

What do you mean?

Just thinking, not so much ruminating but thinking. Today was hard. The positive feelings from the weekend are wearing off, and I'm back into the whole, "This is reality and I'm lying to myself if I don't admit it." Which brings the pain. Have to find an apartment before the end of the month, thinking about what it will be like to sign a lease. Reality hits hard. This isn't a temporary sitch anymore, at least not according to the bills.

Was it AnotherStander or Amoafwl (someone with an A, anyway) who said that MC was maybe counterproductive? Well, it's over and done. One less source of pressure. I'm trying to be sure I know whether being done with MC means being done with any thought of R. Doesn't matter, I do my thing.

But what I'm thinking about is more related to the DR book than to the advice on the forums. The forums are about GAL/detach for my sake, which I'm working at as best as I can. And there's also advice to validate, validate, validate. So, I'm focusing on me, but also trying to pay attention to what works and what doesn't (that's the part from the DR book).

And I realized a couple of things just now. First, I was never very good at validating people, with the result that they feel insignificant in my presence. This was probably W's #1 complaint. Well, time for a 180. Compliments for everyone! Listen 10x as much as I talk. Back in one of the earlier threads somebody said "Holy heck you're a negative person and you need to change that" (probably one of the A-people, I think it was AnotherStander). So that's one thing I've been working at.

The second thing I realized is that maybe it already worked a little. The other night after W and I had the conversation about "MC didn't work, I guess it's over, we tried our best, I love you but I can't be with you, let's stay friends," I had my angry outburst, the usual, "This stinks, I hate it, fine, if this is what you want, then I'll be the one to pull the trigger." But later I came around and said, "Hey, you know, I was thinking about it, and you're right, this is probably the healthy thing to do for both of us." She responded positively to that, so relieved, "Glad you see it my way, this is very kind of you."

Then we did the wedding the next day and the concert the day after, which in my opinion were the best interactions we've had in the past month. She said "Thank you" both times and SHE was the one who leaned in for the hug when I dropped her off. Both times. It was BEFORE the validation that that she said, "I can't be with you because I can't relax when I'm with you." AFTER, she has been quite nice. Sure, we're S so this is all by text. So I don't know how she FELT around me and I won't know because I won't ask her because we don't talk about MR and we don't talk about the future because that's not good DB policy! But I go with the information I have.

So, that's my journal entry for today. Thanks for listening. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Back and hoping the vets haven't given up on me.

I just re-read a bunch of Did's sitch and wow. He and I have a lot in common. So I can see why people on these boards/forums would get frustrated at me, too.

One thing W said during a bad convo last week, "It would be nice to date someone, to have someone that is excited to see me and not difficult to talk to." Describes OM in a nutshell. That was before the weekend, so I used it as a learning opportunity and I was the friendly, easy-to-talk to old version of me.

So I think what happened is that I overreacted to the positive events and maybe scared her away again. She was feeling sad and wanted a fun experience FOR HER. I was there with bells on, just because she asked. Then I invited her to something I wanted to go to, and she said yes. (That second one is a bit less clear.)

Then some friendly text messages the next few days, trying to reconnect with what we like about each other. Humor, no pressure, etc. This is not good DB, I know.

And then dead silence.

As of yesterday, I found an apartment. I'm buying furniture. The S is now legit, none of that trial separation BS. And I'm thinking it never was for her. This was an exit affair. All of the concerns she has expressed about my well-being has been to soothe HER guilt, to make it EASIER for her to finally leave. (I made the mistake once of calling her on that, and she denied it and got angry. So there's probably some truth to it.)

She still insists OM is completely out of the picture. BELIEVE NOTHING SHE SAYS. School starts next week and there he will be, easy to talk to, happy to see her. I know it's not about him but his presence doesn't really help.

So now I have the gut-wrenching pain of loss, which I am trying to use as fuel for detachment. My parents are being somewhat helpful, they have no idea what else to do because I didn't listen to their advice last month (notice a pattern? W has said in the recent past, "I don't understand why you don't listen to the people who care about you").

So I think maybe it's time to go dark. She isn't going to have much time/energy to reach out to me when school starts. Not that she was doing any of the reaching out. I was doing it. Bad DB! Sorry. Should have gone dark sooner but I didn't have the guts. Probably missed the window of opportunity, as she had enough free time during the summer that she may have started missing me. Once school is up and running, her schedule takes care of itself and there's no need for me.

Oh well. Now I get to choose what color the shower curtain is.

Hey vets, can y'all help me get back on the right track now that I wasted a month disobeying you? It would be greatly appreciated.

Originally Posted by burned

Was it AnotherStander or Amoafwl (someone with an A, anyway) who said that MC was maybe counterproductive?

Could have been either of us, or one of several others here. Early on the WAS only goes to mark it off their list of "things I did to try and save the M but only proved it was already over". They do it so that if someone asks "did you try this? Did you try that?" They can say "oh yeah we tried it all. It's BS of course because the WAS isn't actually TRYING, they are just going there so they can say that they did.

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But what I'm thinking about is more related to the DR book than to the advice on the forums. The forums are about GAL/detach for my sake, which I'm working at as best as I can. And there's also advice to validate, validate, validate. So, I'm focusing on me, but also trying to pay attention to what works and what doesn't (that's the part from the DR book).

Good, stick with it!

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And I realized a couple of things just now. First, I was never very good at validating people, with the result that they feel insignificant in my presence. This was probably W's #1 complaint. Well, time for a 180. Compliments for everyone!

Compliments are awesome, but that's not validation, right? Validation is seeking to understand what someone is feeling and supporting their feelings no matter what they are. It is not agreeing/ disagreeing/ arguing/ convincing/ debating/ etc. It is mostly listening, and now and then repeating back their feelings and saying you understand why they feel that way. People try to make validation WAY more than that, but the whole purpose of validating is to let THEM do all the work. Let them vent and pour it all out. You can do almost nothing but sit there and nod and they will thank you for "helping" them so much. Meanwhile you'll be thinking "but I didn't do anything!" But that's the power of listening and validating.

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The second thing I realized is that maybe it already worked a little. The other night after W and I had the conversation about "MC didn't work, I guess it's over, we tried our best, I love you but I can't be with you, let's stay friends," I had my angry outburst, the usual, "This stinks, I hate it, fine, if this is what you want, then I'll be the one to pull the trigger." But later I came around and said, "Hey, you know, I was thinking about it, and you're right, this is probably the healthy thing to do for both of us." She responded positively to that, so relieved, "Glad you see it my way, this is very kind of you."

Great, keep that up and eventually she'll start thinking "wow he really HAS changed."

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Then we did the wedding the next day and the concert the day after, which in my opinion were the best interactions we've had in the past month. She said "Thank you" both times and SHE was the one who leaned in for the hug when I dropped her off.

Excellent baby steps, celebrate them internally and keep doing what you're doing. Remember what DB'ing is all about- keep doing what WORKS and stop what DOESN'T work

Now that you see what's working, continue to build on that.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Compliments are awesome, but that's not validation, right? Validation is seeking to understand what someone is feeling and supporting their feelings no matter what they are. It is not agreeing/ disagreeing/ arguing/ convincing/ debating/ etc. It is mostly listening, and now and then repeating back their feelings and saying you understand why they feel that way. People try to make validation WAY more than that, but the whole purpose of validating is to let THEM do all the work. Let them vent and pour it all out. You can do almost nothing but sit there and nod and they will thank you for "helping" them so much. Meanwhile you'll be thinking "but I didn't do anything!" But that's the power of listening and validating.

WOW this is incredible. This should be copy and pasted into the validation thread.

The only thing I will add is that this is especially true for WAWs/WWs. Most Ws complain that men don't empathize, but immediately jump to fixing mode. And, in truth, they are probably right, most Hs do not empathize but try to fix it.

Listening and validating shows one of the biggest 180s a LBH spouse can make, and that is to stop trying to fix and make things better when all they want is you to understand.

So her silence isn�t a bad sign then? That must be the part where �it feels wrong but it isn�t.� Aside from some nostalgia, I feel a lot better NOT �touching the hot stove.� Still doubtful that she�ll ever come around, but this is life for the moment, I only control me.

Steve, I went to a relationship workshop a few months ago (her experience there triggered S, so that was a great waste of 800 bucks). They showed a video that was hilarious and illustrated your point. I won�t name the workshop and I know I can�t post outside links, but google something about the couple with the woman who has a nail in her head. Hilarious but accurate.

Hope this confident feeling lasts. I mean, I know there are ups and downs. Hoping the up lasts a day or two longer this time. Small progress...

Quick question before I go to bed. I was basking in the satisfaction of what happened yesterday: W texts to see if I want to meet up, I was out of town, she says, oh, ok, just that I was thinking of you and I know you�re worried about me going back to school tomorrow (i.e., today, the 10th), because of �the stuff that is hard to talk about� (i.e., OM). She apparently wanted to �acknowledge feelings.� Or maybe temp check, or who knows what.

So I do my DB and say, nope, no worries, you can do your thing, hope you have a good start to the semester. I�m paraphrasing here.

Thought it was strange that she would reach out to me that way. It was spontaneous and kind. I attributed it to the fact that I had gone somewhat dark. Maybe it worked? Hm.

Then just now I read some threads about the �script� and so forth. So now I got to thinking, is this part of the game? I�m trying not to believe anything she says, so that would include the stuff she said about how the A is over and OM is off the table.

But then why would she go out of her way to �reassure� me, the day before she knows I know she would be in the same room as him?

I smell a rat.

Vets, please advise.

(In other news, it turns out they WILL arrest you, with handcuffs and mugshots, for doing 101 in a 55 MPH zone. Ask me how I know.)

W reached out to schedule something on Saturday, another get-together with friends where we will act like everything is fine. I'm OK with it. As long as I'm detached, I don't think it hurts the chances of R if she has enough positive memories of us together. Who knows. I'm feeling good about my detachment, so I'll accept the crumbs without expectations, right Steve?

But then she asks me how I'm doing and reiterates her concern about my feelings and reassures me that nothing happened on Monday between her and OM.

Guilt? I suspect so. But if she is detaching, why would she give a hoot about what I think of her?

Then I'm coping with a new twist. People who know us have been quite vocal about their opinions about her. How do people typically handle those? I mean, my standard response is, "Yeah, I guess it's over, I'm moving on." But there's a little fire still burning in my heart, keeping the lighthouse warm.

Steve said this a few days ago:

Originally Posted by Steve85

Detachment really works. First, it works to help you move on no matter what. Secondly it works that when you really do it well, the WAS will respond positively almost always.

And it got me thinking: isn't detachment just the ultimate validation? In the sense that W has been saying for months, "This isn't working for me, I need to go." And I've been saying "No, don't, you're making a mistake." But by showing her an attitude of, "OK, I can see why you want to go, I would prefer if you didn't but if that's what you feel you need to do then I won't stop you." And suddenly she feels validated, and isn't in such a rush to hit the road.

And at the same time you're validating yourself by telling yourself, "I understand that you're hurting, and it's OK to hurt."

So many layers to DB.

I need help. Past 2 weeks I was thinking, detach, it�s working, she will change her mind. Tonight we get together, she isn�t wearing her rings, we ended up doing the R talk and she is 100% done, so happy on her own, so miserable when she was with me, so certain that we are incompatible. Not a chance she will relent. Lots of guilty crying.

I�m dying. I don�t know what to do.

First you detach for you. Not her. If you were detaching then the R talk would have had zero impact on you, or close to it. Second, they all say that. I tell the story of my wife putting a profile on a dating site. A very public profile with a picture and everything. Her profile description was a long story about how she can't date right now but that she wanted to see what was available until her D. That her husband wanted to try to fix things but that she was done. Period. End of story. This was literally 5 days after she weepingly told me that the knew D was wrong, that God hated it, and that she wanted to want to stay.

Look, the WAS is on their on rollercoaster. One minute drawing near to R, the next running away as fast and far as possible.

This is why you believe nothing they say. NOTHING!!!!! Good or bad.

Just keep DBing

She hasn�t drawn closer to R. It�s all just running.

Not too long ago you posted about being upbeat about a weekend that happened. burned look you are way too attached still. It's a Saturday night. Why aren't you out somewhere GAL??

I guess the reality is just hitting me. She is committed to ending it. This is where I�m going to need a lot more confidence in DB...

Right now she is committed to that. That can change tomorrow. Or next week. Or next month. Or next year.

Marathon......NOT A SPRINT!!! Again, why aren't you out tonight GAL??

Well the plan for tonight was to see friends with her. But after the R talk I dropped her off at �home� and now I�m at �my place.�

burned GAL is not plans with your WAS. Just the opposite. PLANS WITHOUT HER.

The posters that struggle this most are the ones that ignore GAL.

That upbeat weekend was a lie, just more selfishness, just something to help her feel less bad about herself, apparently. And I fell for it. Well, I�m done.

Told her I�m not going to stand in the way of her happiness and that I�ll do her the favor of setting D in motion. She always complained that it wasn�t fair that she had to be the one to make the decision. Well, I saved her the trouble.

This is one WW whose cold, selfish heart has done enough damage. But I won�t let her make me feel bad about myself by blaming me for everything bad and ignoring everything good I did for her.

Time to drop the rope.

Steve! I made a mistake.

Told W that I�m not going to stand in the way of her happiness and that it�s clear to me that her happiness requires me to not be her H and that I will give her the most loving gift of all: D and freedom. I said I�m completely against it and I think it�s a mistake. But I want her to be happy, and she seems to think that will help. (We know she�s wrong but she doesn�t.)

How do you sustain hope, when the WAW is adamant that nothing else will be enough, but still expresses sadness about things ending? Every time I assume she still has any shred of feelings left for me beyond guilt and a vague sense of friendship, I get...burned.

Taking the first step toward D is a major 180 for me. I also thought maybe it would placate her and restore some self-respect. I�ve got just about everyone in real life losing respect for me because they can�t understand why I haven�t filed like 2 months ago. It also just occurred to me that although I was afraid she�d file as soon as possible (you said the quiet ones are the ones most likely to file), maybe because she is WAW she wouldn�t? Now I just handed her D on a silver platter.

But then she says she just can�t stop dwelling on the idea that this is really happening. Even though she�s the one who is pushing for it to happen.

I know I can�t believe anything she says and only half of what she does (which half?). But I have some real decisions to make here and I have no idea what to do. My neck is getting closer to the buzzsaw.

I�ve been trying so hard to figure out how this will go. But my travels on this forum have led me to believe that of the few things that are most likely to lead to R (Christian, has children, H was the wayward one), we have none of those.

What do I do? Go darker?

Burned,

I hear you man. My W has only ever expressed guilt, sadness, and desire for friendship post BD, and it became impossible for me to sustain hope. I only now noticed that while you joined the forum in August our timelines and sitches are pretty close. My BD was in early April, no religion, no kids, no looking backing. Mine is a WAW rather than WW, and her steadfastness and relative sanity have given me no hope that she is in a temporary fog that she will snap out of. I moved out right away and have had very, very, very limited contact with her over the past 3.5 months.

You say your W can't stop dwelling on the idea that this is really happening. I had the same experience when I talked to my W about selling our house. She just broke down in tears. It was too real for her at the time. My expectation is that it will become easier for both of our Ws to accept the reality with the passage of time.

Reading your comments it seems like you are still doing things (like giving her the D) to make her happy or win her back.

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Taking the first step toward D is a major 180 for me. I also thought maybe it would placate her and restore some self-respect.

That won't work for either of us. So long as you are doing things to get a reaction out of her, it isn't going to work. Dropping the rope is exactly the opposite of that. It is letting her go on her journey without any strings attached. Some people can maintain hope of R while doing that. I can't. I have to just let it go. Maybe it is my lack of religious faith, and maybe it is different in your case. But with or without hope, you need to stop doing things with her in mind. If you want the D for your self-respect and you feel ready for it, then by all means go for it, but it doesn't sound that way.

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My neck is getting closer to the buzzsaw.

I assume you are referring to D. Why is that the buzzsaw? As wiser people once told me, the MR that you had is already over. It ended when she BD'd you. A piece of paper from the church or government doesn't change that fact. If you are meant to be together, you can certainly R after signing divorce papers. They don't change the facts on the ground. Truly realizing that my MR was over, despite the lack of official government sanction in the form of D papers, has been beyond hard and spun me into a number of depressive cycles. But I have to acknowledge it because otherwise I can't grieve it and eventually come to a place of acceptance.

It sounds like you are not ready for D, so why do anything about it? If she asks you can tell her that you aren't ready but won't stand in her way. If she wants to pursue it, let her.

Hang in there.

Thanks. You are saying encouraging things.

Yeah, I was thinking our sitches were similar. But mine involved an A that sort of "opened her eyes" to the possibilities that exist out there that aren't me. And mine is definitely full of mixed messages, plus several months of me pushing/pursuing, plus failed MC. I'll have to re-read yours to see what else is same/different but yeah I remember thinking that when I first read it. We're also kind of similar in age I think.

Lots to process from yesterday. She is the type of person who makes a decision and sticks with it. At the moment it feels like most of her efforts are geared toward feeling better about her decision and getting more comfortable with it.

You're right about the legal document stuff. At this point our M is nothing but a legal document. D would just be a legal document, too. But an expensive one. And one that would maybe solidify her decision that there's nothing left between us but a friendship that serves her needs and not mine. But there are a couple of stories in the DR book that suggest to me that friendship is step 1 and we can build on that if I work hard enough. Also a couple of sitches on here, Benito and LITB I think. I've been reading so many posts here that I'm actually tired of thinking.

What happened after I sent her that text along with a couple others saying that she will need to figure out her financial separation while we wait for D to go through, is that she texted me to talk about a status update that evening. She said she's feeling a lot of pain from our recent discussions, and confused by my sudden change of heart because she thought we were at a place where there was a good balance, where we could be friends without expectations.

I told her it really freaked me out that she wasn't wearing her rings. She was wearing pseudo-rings that look like the real ones. She called them "transition rings." I assume it's so that nobody asks questions.

The topic of D didn't come up in the conversation, but it is lurking and will continue to lurk. If I had more patience, more detachment, less anxiety, I'd just let it be and see what happens. But you're right, I am completely opposed to the idea, and afraid of it.

So I told her that it's hard for me to interact with her when we aren't clear about the purpose of the interactions. She said she thought it was abundantly clear that she was done with our M and moving toward D, but "one day at a time" to make it less painful. She said everything is weird and uncharted territory and blah blah and "I understand if you don't want to stay in contact if I hurt you." That may have been in response to my relative darkness over the last two weeks.

Lots of horse-hooey but I went with it. I'm trying not to let it change how I feel. Working really hard on detachment. But I can also analyze it from the perspective of, I tried to show her that I am REALLY moving on, and she got a little perturbed by that and said "Hey wait not yet." Which means I did it to get a reaction out of her, and not just for me. Ugh.

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But mine involved an A that sort of "opened her eyes" to the possibilities that exist out there that aren't me.

You just described every "W has an A (EA or PA)" sitch ever.

Took a break to think about it some more.

Davide, I'll re-read your posts to see how you've been coping with the grief. Can you tell me what has been most helpful?

I think the major thing holding me back is the notion that I have to do the work of grieving, and then live my life as if it's over. It's almost like I'm afraid that if I do that, it really WILL be over. But then in swoops Steve and others (including my parents) who grab me by the shoulders and say, "What part are you not getting? IT IS OVER!"

Let her go to get her back, I guess.

I also just realized I made a major mistake by telling her, "It's hard to interact with you as a friend when I still have such strong feelings for you." Now she knows I'm nowhere near being truly detached.

She's wily. She called my bluff on the D.

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And one that would maybe solidify her decision that there's nothing left between us but a friendship that serves her needs and not mine.

You must not read much on this board. D is a step in the process. That is all. LBS put so much emphasis on D.

BD.
Spouse sleeping with someone else.
Spouse moving out of the home.

All of those are much bigger than D. D has no bearing on whether R is a potential or not. The only thing that D does is sometimes the work involved makes the WAS question if D and ending the MR is really worth it or not.

Originally Posted by burned

I also just realized I made a major mistake by telling her, "It's hard to interact with you as a friend when I still have such strong feelings for you." Now she knows I'm nowhere near being truly detached.

She's wily. She called my bluff on the D.

Yep. LBS' biggest mistake is almost always saying too much.

Time to double down on DB, I know. I backslid a little. She has that kind of power over me.

This week I have tasks in front of me that need to be dealt with. Buying furniture, gathering dishes and things, putting together everything I will need for the new apartment, into which I'm moving bit by bit over the next 2 weeks. For the last 3 months I was living in a friend's empty house while it was being sold.

That's GAL, in a sense, right? Not really fun hobbies, but work that has to be done, rather than sitting around worrying.

Originally Posted by Steve85

The only thing that D does is sometimes the work involved makes the WAS question if D and ending the MR is really worth it or not.

Meaning she stays in the MR because dealing with lawyers is a hassle?

Why does the WAS take the approach of, "I'll do the work when I feel love," while the LBS thinks, "I'll do the work so that we can feel love"?

In other words, WAS stays in MR because it's less work. But then resents LBS more because they still feel stuck and powerless. I'm not getting it because I'm stuck in my own head.

In a sense, yes. GAL is more about new experiences and staying busy. If that stuff keeps you busy, then great.

Next question: how do you fend off all the people saying, "Why are you letting her do this to you, man up and file!"

I just wrote this in Turbine's thread. And I think it speaks to your question:

Originally Posted by Steve85

I am a staunch "do not tell anyone about your sitch" proponent. First of all this is all private stuff. If you are going to discuss it with anyone you should first get your W's permission.Note, this is just my opinion. Opinions on this will vary.

The reasons I advocate this approach are:

1) It is pressure on your WAW. No way around it. Eventually, the minister would say something to her. Or her knowing he knows alone would be pressure. Remember, you are trying to remove all pressure and pursuit.

2) People's hearts are in the right place, but you will be given traditional marriage advice. IE Pursue....pressure...reconnect. The whole reason DB exists is because in the vast majority of cases that advice doesn't work. People you are close to will give you advice based on the fact that they care about you and don't want to see you hurting. "Just file for D." "Say this to her." Etc. Its better to DB and not try to incorporate advice from people to close to the sitch.

3) It makes it harder for the WAW to come back. It is hard enough for her to reconcile with you, and get past all of the things that have been said and done between the two of you. If she feels that she also has that dynamic going on with your family, and friends, and minister, and other members of the church, then it might end up being too much work, and push her to just give up.

Be very careful who you tell. sandi gave me advice early on not to "out" my WAW to the Church. That was sound advice, and I strongly suggest the LBS think very carefully before talking to people about your sitch, especially people the WAW will have a relationship in the future if your MR moves to R.

Note #2.

Yup, on BD I basically told her entire family and our closest friends, plus my parents (with whom she already had a strained relationship).

She has repeatedly said that she is afraid of what everyone thinks of her now.

To have to R with me, and then do the walk of shame with everyone who knows...I am not in good shape.

Burned,

In terms of working through the grief, it's a tough process. I would encourage you to reach out for as much support as you can. Working with a therapist has been helpful for me. Coming here has helped a good bit as well. I also have friends and family that I can reach out to and speak honestly about the sitch and my emotions (not common friends of the W.) If you are so inclined a priest, rabbi, or other religious official could serve a similar function. There are times when I have been down and just need to have that friendly voice on the other end of the line. The loneliness can be brutal.

All that said, and it is important, working through the grief is something that you have to do on your own. With my therapists I have worked a lot on CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) and even more so on mindfulness. I try to take time each day to meditate or practice yoga, which helps greatly with bringing me into the present moment. When I am struck by anger or overwhelming sadness I am learning to accept the emotion/thought without judgement. Examine it, see what the thought is underneath the emotion - what is the story I am telling myself. And then let it go. Release it. Come back to my breathing and to the present moment.

The other aspect that has been helpful for me is working on self-compassion. I would recommend doing some reading on the concept. It sounds so simple, but I know that I have struggled with it my entire life. So many of us have internal monologues which are so toxic, we talk to ourselves in ways that we would never talk to friends or loved ones who are undergoing some trauma or feeling like a failure. A large part of it is also tied in to recognizing our common humanity, how we are all struggling at times to do the best we can under difficult circumstances.

The other big aspect for me is simply action. There is a saying "Action precedes motivation." I have found that to be incredibly powerful and true. Simply getting off my a## and doing something can be incredibly helpful. Exercise is a key component of that for me because it aligns with my values, and it helps rebuild my self confidence as well. But it can also be something as simple as getting off the couch and cleaning up the house, or taking the dog for a walk. When I find myself loafing on the couch without a shred of motivation to do anything other than pop another cheeto in my mouth, the simple act of doing something can make me feel so much better.

In regards to the the GAL question - sure getting a new apartment ready is absolutely GALing. You are getting on with your own life regardless of the W. I bought some new things for the house, and have been hanging up prints of my summer trip to replace the art that W left.

Finally, and most importantly, yes, you need to let her go. Or better said, you have to accept the fact that she is already gone. Steve is 100% right. It hurts like hell, but the sooner you accept that the sooner you can start healing.

So then you and I are in the same boat.

Don't go on that trip, you'll be setting yourself back.

Quick update, I was doing better yesterday and still doing OK today. Not much going on in terms of GAL except trying to get back in the game at work.

Reading lots of other threads and trying to understand something.

If W took off her rings and said we're working on being friends and "easing ourselves out of this," i.e., being nice to each other as we continue to drift apart...then how am I still her plan B? I am her plan NOTHING. Not sure what her plan A is. She says it's not OM, she says she is happy being alone for once. But I don't even get the impression that she considers me as plan anything.

I read so much about people having a change of heart when something or other happens. But this one seems like she is just working as hard as she can to get used to her new reality now that she has made her decision to never look back.

I know I need to just let her go and focus on me. I just like to understand things. So I could use some feedback. Because she isn't cake eating to any extent that I can tell. She's just letting go slowly, and grieving. So am I.

What does it mean that I'm so focused on her reaction to my threat to just bail out? I mean, it's what she wants. But then I said it and she thought about it and 6 hours later she talks like she is surprised that I would take such a dramatic step. But that's what she wants!

So I'm confused. Just very, very confused. I need to get back on the DB train and I could use a good whack over the head please.

OK, friends. Time to fish or cut bait.

No idea if Sandi will ever lay eyes on my thread but she's the one I need. Steve says "let her go to get her back."

Sandi says that the friend zone means no sexual attraction and the way to kickstart that is to dump her. This is pretty consistent with what people are telling me IRL.

The only thing I can think of that would imply ME dumping HER would be to file for D. So do I file for D in order to paradoxically Bust the D?

Or do I just go darker and wait to see what happens?

burned, do you want a D?

No. Which makes me think that then I'd be doing it to manipulate, which is bad. I get it.

I'm just at a loss for how to show her that if she's moving on, so am I.

Edit: I know the answers. Detach, GAL. I guess I need to be WAY more patient. I just don't know how non-DB people like W perceive the non-action. Is it making me look weak, thereby robbing myself of the last shred of respect she may have for me?

Based on this: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2813196#Post2813196

GAL does not make you look weak if you do it well. In fact, most of the time the LBS will become more attractive as their GAL activities take up their time. GAL is the opposite of non-action. Non-action is sitting around looking forlorn. GAL is staying busy. Always active. Not sitting still. Having no time to just sit and be idle.

burned, the posters that do GAL well are the most successful, and struggle less than those that do not.

Originally Posted by Steve85

burned, the posters that do GAL well are the most successful, and struggle less than those that do not.

I know.

So what you're saying is I can just leave D on the back burner for now, even though in her non-DB mind it's basically gonna happen at some point or another. Why else would she take off the rings and start erasing me from the house.

Edit: I say "I know" but it doesn't seem to be sinking in. So maybe I don't know because I haven't done it enough.

I just can't stand the fact that everything is working out just the way she wants it to, and I'm the one suffering. "I'm so happy on my own, nobody to make me feel bad about myself." So she is just "getting away with it" like kech's H.

burned, I always advise posters to not file for D UNLESS they want a D. You're right, doing it to manipulate her will backfire. In fact, most WASs/WSs WANT the LBS to do the dirty work of D. That is why they do the things they do, to try to push the LBS to get fed up and say "forget this" and go file. Some LBSs do get to the point where now they want a D and go file.

But you have decide what you want first. When you WANT a D then go file by all means. WASs will rarely pull that trigger if they think they can push the LBS to do it.

Originally Posted by burned

I just can't stand the fact that everything is working out just the way she wants it to, and I'm the one suffering. "I'm so happy on my own, nobody to make me feel bad about myself." So she is just "getting away with it" like kech's H.

Eh, don't believe that for a minute! Remember, believe nothing she says. Her life could be miserable right now, but she isn't going to let you know that. She is going to put a smile on and pretend like this is the best thing she's ever done. The

The bigger point is, who cares? If she is happy as a lark, or as miserable as a fly with its wings pulled off, or more likely any thing in between, who cares? It changes nothing that you should be doing.

You admit to not doing GAL well. Change that.

Burned,

I feel you. My WAW, at least in my imagination, is enjoying her freedom and opportunity to live free of the MR. But, so what? Even if the Ws are living up and happy, why should that affect our emotions? If we are living our best lives and GALing as much as possible and making the changes to become the person we want to be, that not only should be enough for us, it has to be. Living our best lives is the only thing we can control. Whatever the W is doing is irrelevant and only distracts us from what we should be focusing on.

Also, it doesn't sound like you are ready to D, so be very cautious about starting down that path.

Originally Posted by Davide

Also, it doesn't sound like you are ready to D, so be very cautious about starting down that path.

Kicking myself because on Sunday I texted her, "This is what you want, fine, let me be the one to start the process." She later responded by saying something along the lines of "I thought we were working on being friends" which I interpreted to mean, why are you taking such a drastic step all of a sudden?

But I have no idea. I just keep making things worse.

Yes, those kinds of interaction do make things worse. Limbo suchs. But it is better than D if that is not what you want.

I hated limbo. There were times I wanted to blow everything up because I hated limbo so much. Then a DB vet here told me that "limbo is the gift of time". Changed my whole perspective. You have to have patience. Let the process work, and stop doing things that hurt your sitch.

Just that I'm trying hard to understand how it counts as limbo when W:

1. She said she wants D
2. Changed her Instagram name, which is an unusually public action for someone who is deathly afraid of "what people will think"
3. Took off her rings

Then she also said, "It's never black-and-white." And various other confusing garbage.

Believe nothing she says. But her actions are consistent and calculated.

Is it too late for the process to work?

In my mind, limbo is mainly in the mind and attitude of the LBS. So long as you are either a) still attached emotionally to her or b) willing to take on the role of the lighthouse, waiting with detachment to see what happens, you are in limbo. One is obviously much more helpful than the other, but both involve waiting to see if the WAS's journey takes them back to the LBS.

It is always YOUR choice to end limbo by letting go and not waiting any more. It doesn't sound like you are that point yet, though.

Regarding the D talk, if you aren't ready for it, I would just not follow up or bring it up unless she specifically asks about it. If she does,tell her the truth - that you aren't ready to D, that you spoke in the heat of emotion, but that if she wants to go down that route you won't oppose her.

Burned -

You are moving and posting a mile a minute. You aren�t going to get the answers today. Just sit back for a time. Focus on your apartment and work. Focus on restarting some exciting GAL. Just let all of your questions dangle. SHE probably doesn�t even know what it all means. Accept that you can�t know or understand or CONTROL everything.

Understand that as of now, she isn�t interested in a R with you.

Knowing that, what is important to you? What do you want THAT life to look like?

Amoafwl, thanks. I know I need to get my mind off of her and onto me. But I�ve always been kind of a dependent person. (I met her exactly 15 years ago today, side note)

I�m trying to figure out this respect issue, reading about other sitches and feedback from Sandi and Hoosjim.

WW has gotten just about everything she wanted since BD, because I kept giving it to her in the name of being nice so that she wouldn�t leave.

I feel like when I first discovered A on BD and took a strong stand on keeping her and trying to R, she had little stars in her eyes. Then I set up MC and a weekend relationship workshop. Then she wanted S and I said why, so you can resume A, she said well that�s not what it�s about but what would you do about it? I said I would end the marriage if she saw him again. But I didn�t want her to have her own place where she could see him, so I was the one who left. (The A did resume for a night, and I just kind of let it slide right by).

I even remember 2 or 3 distinct moments when it almost felt like she was taunting me, or at least testing me, to see what I would do. Like, when I found out that she was in contact with OM again after that night, she said something like, what are you gonna do about it. Not in an angry way but almost like she wanted me to say I won�t tolerate it. Instead, I said I�m not trying to control her and she can do whatever she wants but consider that it�s disrespectful to me. The next week was the closest we ever felt since S and it was because she thought I had revealed A to OM�s W. She hugged me and looked at me with those starry eyes again and said, why did you do it? Like she was proud of me for rescuing her. (I didn�t do it, I told her that my friends did, and she went right back to being angry at me and at them for interfering with OM�s private life, whatever.)

There were various other missed opportunities to show her that I could stand up for myself. Then the complaining about how her baloney was causing me to act weak at work resulting in mistreatment by some colleagues. And so forth. MC once said that she won�t feel safe with me until she feels that I can stand up for myself, so that then I can stand up for her when she needs me to. I didn�t realize at the time that I was being tested. I didn�t know about DB and it seemed counterintuitive to stand up TO her to show her that I would stand up FOR her.

So here we are. She is in the house, while I�m moving into another apartment. I�m paying the mortgage, the bills, etc. She has the dog and cats. She asked me to gift her one of our cars so that it would have only her name on the title, and I did. And so forth.

Then about a month ago I got friend-zoned, and neglected AnotherStander�s advice to put my foot down on not switching from husband to friend. And then this weekend I tried to use the threat of D to stand up for myself, and she yet again called my bluff.

A lot of older, wiser people are telling me that I�ve basically always let her take and take and take and then when she decided she wanted more, off she went. I took pride in being a generous, kind, patient person. But here I am. A weak shell of who I used to be. And she�s looking down at me thinking, what a sucher.

GAL for me will make me feel better for me, I know. I need to get back to the person I used to be. I don�t think at this point it will make much of a difference to her, but that�s beside the point.

Have I lost so much respect that it�s too late? In other words, does it make any sense to keep standing? Has anyone gotten to R from such a low point? Could really use some input from Hoosjim.

1) so what are you doing about �being a dependent person�? How are you different now than you were a month ago when you joined?

2) you talk in deadlines like �too late�. There is NO WAY auto know. All you can do is change and see what happens. It may have been �too late� months ago. It may not be �too late� yet. Focus on YOU. What do you want your life to be? What values are important to you? Who do YOU want to be? What steps are ou going to take to become THAT person?

3) do you see the issue in your second to last paragraph? You say you need to GAL for you but don�t think it will make any difference.....how is that GAL for you...? Have you even tried GAL for you yet?

I think my holdup is still what it was a month ago, when Steve said, "Too much focus on HER." You may have also said that.

It's what's making detachment hard. The feeling of loss. The thoughts of, "This would be more fun with her by my side" or "She used to tell me I should do this."

I guess a lot of my hobbies required a house and a garage. I'm going to have to find new stuff to do in an apartment. Thankfully it's a gigantic 2-bedroom apartment (all they had available) so I'll have an "indoor garage" maybe.

Getting a lot better at relating to people, being open, asking about them rather than focusing on me. Getting along MUCH better with my parents, who have turned into complete strangers in terms of how they are responding to my sitch. They rose to the occasion in a way that completely floored me.

Gonna have to accept that I feel like I've made progress but it's not what she wants and she doesn't love me anymore and isn't attracted to me and it suchs.

Maybe after I move and things are settled I can do more GAL and maybe that will help with detaching.

Never is too late FOR YOU man.

Face your fears and stand for yourself. You have the power to overcome whatever your sitch brings.
So use the DB tools and get into amoafwl (not the member...;-))

You can do it man

Oh THAT'S what that stands for! "A man only a fool would leave." *ding*

Head shot! ;-)

Burned, i am looking at your story, but my time is limited, so may be a day or two before i get back to you. Keep up the fight!

Thanks! And I'm working on patience, what's a day or two when I'm buckling down in preparation for a year or two?

I have NGS and Steve said I was the worst. Read no more mr nice guy if you havent already... I only read a few pages of your sitch with limited time. But yo man stop giving her stuff! Let OM give her cars etc. Dont make payments for her... I understand youre on the mortgage so you have to pay that. Tell her you want all CC, separate finances as early as possible. I waited way too long with this. Take the security she gets being married to you if she is sleeping with OM especially a married guy.

You want respect back switch it up- 180... why does she get the house while you pay the mortgage? Tell her unless shes paying the mortgage she can live in the apt. Dont worry about her space for OM thats outside your control. I know how hard it is. When my W was with OM I had crazy anxiety, I was on sleeping pills, I knew when I had our daughter she was probably having sex with some dude. It [censored] but we cant control it. I recommend getting into some new hobbies, meditate, run, workout, fish whatever clear your head... therapy helps for sure. Having a non biased person to talk to.

My W left me she wanted the house I said um no you're leaving why would you get the house. She lived with her mom for a year. She didnt like me for it and we had almost no progress for that year. So maybe thats not the right move but the respect is key and it comes before attraction. Now I am paying support and shes in a $1325/mo rental, house has been sold and I purchased a smaller home. I screw up DBing all the time but gotta try our best right. At this point I'd focus on doing things that make you happy. Have fun GAL. And think of advice you would give someone else in regard to your decision making. Take emotion or fear out of it. Definitely do not pursue divorce, take away the free ride shes getting and she can pursue D if sh wants.

A lot of the time for me I have to do the opposite of what I want to do. I want to date my wife and treat her like any other woman but when I pull away she shows interest. Just have to be consistent about it. DB does work but its definitely not easy

Good ol� Mom. She�s �from the old country�:

�There is no �in the meantime,� [burned]. [W] is not going to come back, certainly not to a depressed, half living man. You are ruining your life waiting for her. Work on creating a good life for yourself. Give your attention to work. Find activities that you like, photography, music, some physical work, conferences. Find a new job if you are tired of the clinic, in an area you would like to live. Ruminating day and night will not make you someone she wants to go back to. And, if she comes back, it will not be anytime soon. I know it�s not easy, but that�s where you can show your strength.�

Eat your vegetables and do your DB!

Steve, have you been emailing my mother? :P

Your mom is a wise woman!

I wish i would have received this advice 1.5 yesrs ago.

Translation: detach, GAL.

For some reason It hurts like heck when your mother says it. Almost like suddenly it�s real.

Anyone out there? Having a rough day. Have to move out of my current apt. by Sunday, can�t move into the new one until Oct. 3. Facing the prospect of living out of my car for the next 2 weeks. Six months ago I was in a house with a dog, 2 car garage, pear trees, enclosed porch...

I can�t figure out if I love W or resent her down to my bones.

Detachment: am I supposed to act like we�re not married, just strangers who used to know each other? I�m buying a TV for an apartment that she will probably never visit.

How can you love someone when they are trying as hard as they can to remove you from their life? Dropping you on your butt without giving a hoot about whether it is ruining your life? And acting like the more you take care of yourself, the better they will feel because then they don�t have to feel guilty about being heartless, selfish, cruel...

Maybe look into an extended stay hotel? I�m sure that there are better options than your car available for you.

As for moving forward, stop dwelling on what you�ve lost. How can you instead think about the opportunities that you have? Take the time to pick the �perfect tv� in the �perfect spot� in your new place. Do some research to get what you want. How about decorations - I know it might feel sucky, but try to pick things you like and want to show off.

And yeah. Start to freaking GAL. it�s hard but that�s not an excuse. It�s like you are purposely keeping yourself in the �feel bad� zone. Why are you making that choice?

Get out and GAL B! Welcome the changes, you are moving forward!

Burned,

If you really GAL and get out there and enjoy yourself your life WILL BE better, and it won't matter what reaction that provokes in your W.

I know it is tough right now, but you are looking backwards and looking for the negatives. I fall into that trap at times as well. Take some deep breathes and bring your mind back to the present. What concrete steps could you take right now to make yourself feel better. Go to a movie, walk in the park, join a gym. There are endless possibilities.

Hang in there.

Sick to my stomach.

WW texts "Hi, are you doing OK?" I respond, "Yes, you?" thinking she wants to say something nice or talk about whatever. Nope, just, "Letting you know that I got the mortgage bill and I'll be paying it from the shared account." So I respond, "That's fine, thanks." And she responds, "OK, thanks."

I guess I handled it well from a DB perspective, maybe a bit too much pursuit but oh well.

Just hurts that she's more detached than I am. Feels like in her mind we just need to get along minimally until D. That's all that's left...business decisions.

Doing some GAL this weekend. Going to a concert in the city with the parents.

Can't stop thinking about her and what we had. I miss her, so much.

Be strong man! Enjoy the concert. Force you enjoy the concert...Live the present. You can do it.

Wow, burned... I almost dont know where to begin with you. Sandi probably would. She's great that way, always seems to know just exactly what needs to be said no matter at what point she jumps into a thread/sitch. Hope she's okay.

Let me start by saying 4 things:

1) Let me tell you my philosophy, briefly, on DB-ing. Yes, DB-ing is all about "you." And "detaching" is a key, key, and in fact in nearly every case an indispensable element of DB-ing. That said, "detachment" does not, IMHO (and i'll prolly catch some flack here, but whatever, i just gotta be me) mean that you have to completely "not care." Nor does it mean that you have to give up all hope of ever reconciling with your spouse. This is, after all, divorce-BUSTING, right?!?! (And, besides, I'm sorry, no one, no matter what they say, is that "zen.") To my mind, the possibility, nay, the desirability of reconciling with one's spouse is no way inconsistent with the principles of DB-ing. Quite the contrary. While, of course, the steps we take in terms of GAL are absolutely necessary for us to become as fulfilled as we can possibly be as individuals, and to prepare us to bring the most we can bring, the absolute best "us". to whatever relationship the future brings us, ... it is in fact undeniable that the desired outcome in many cases is a reconciliation with one's spouse. And there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS. The problem arises where your future happiness is or becomes entirely staked on reconciling with your spouse. While there is certainly nothing wrong with preferring (or even as a secondary matter working towards) that outcome, you need to have a life that fulfills you on your own. You need to know that, even as you prefer a result where you and your spouse reconcile, that you will be okay no matter what happens. (Christianity is a great reinforcer of and provides a great foundation for this mindset, but I understand that that is not everyone's cup of tea). And you need to know that you will be okay specifically no matter the outcome of your MR or indeed the outcome of ANY relationship. It is a very delicate line to walk. However, if you can manage that, you will be well on your way to very fulfilling life no matter who you do or do not end up with, and you will be a fantastic partner to anyone you do end up in a relationship with.

2) Dealing with the cacophony of voices and sometimes inconsistent-seeming advice. Everyone's sitch on here is different. Every. One. And the advice or insights folks offer up on here will, invariably, to greater or lesser degrees, be colored by their own sitch and their own experiences. It's human nature. This will also, invariably, lead to differing takes, at times, on your sitch or what you are doing in it. Don't despair! Remember, we are all on here to help you! The best thing you can do, to minimize confusion and avoid analysis paralysis is, imho, default to looking for common themes and threads. The fundamentals of DB-ing are consistent, and pretty much everyone on here will trace their insights back to those. Look for the commonality in the posts people make on here, and focus on those. Beyond that, try to understand the other posters' perspectives and how their similarities (or, alternatively, the differences) can be useful to you in gleaning valuable insights from their posts. This seems easy and self evident to me as i write it, but, then again, I get paid (very well) to do that sort of thing every day, so it's second nature to me, even as i have to admit that i, myself, was frequently afflicted with analysis paralysis and frozen by the cacophony of many voices.

3) You are not alone. We are with you. Everyone on this board, and particularly the people chiming in her on your thread, wants the best for you and is pulling for you. Yes, even while smacking you around with a 2 x4, we care and want you to succeed. We have all "been there" and we all know how it feels. It [censored], but you know something? You WILL get through it. There is an amazing, awesome, joyful, "burned" inside you who has alot to bring to any relationship... it's true. You can BE that person. But you have to want it. And, like anything worthwhile in life, its going to be hard. Just remember, we're with you.

4) You had a spectacular moment of clarity a few posts back where you said:

Quote

WW has gotten just about everything she wanted since BD, because I kept giving it to her in the name of being nice so that she wouldn�t leave.

And this, despite everything, shows good self awareness. REMEMBER THIS POST. You, I believe, know what you should be doing.... the other posters here have been giving you good advice. It's just up to you to implement it. You have not, i think you would admit, done a stellar job of this so far (but, hey, i doubt any of us did at first... i know i didnt). That said, while you say that things look bleak, i would say they are not without hope. YOU certainly have a lot of room to get out and start doing some things to improve your own life-- you sound like a bright guy, i'd be surprised if you don't have a few interests you could parlay into some fulfilling GAL activities. I always offer up that the two most fundamental and foundational ones for me were 1) Faith and 2) Fitness. I prolly wouldn not be where i am today without either of them. For the first, I was blessed to find a church that really "spoke" to me, and, quite honestly, that faith kept me going even in my darkest days... because i knew i was loved, that i had value, and that everything was going to work out okay for me in the end... regardless of what happened with my MR (though i did, quite honestly, steadfastly believe that God had "spoken" to me consistently that He wanted my MR to survive and that it could... if i were obedient to Him.) For the second, i just honestly find it nearly impossible to feel badly when i am working out and the endorphins start flowing. IT's a great way to kill time, Very worthwhile in terms of self image and just how you "feel.", and its fairly good way to meet people. As to the latter.... GET OUT THERE AND MEET SOME PEOPLE. I have found that, by and large, most people are pretty good folks, and most are willing to talk to you. I am not a particularly extroverted person, but i do enjoy the companionship of others. Shortly after my ordeal started, i cultivated a couple of regular hang-outs where i would go for dinner or maybe a beer or two (but gotta watch that, drinking can cause some problems as you can see if you read through my threads), and i became a "regular". Made a lot of casual friends and those two places became a refuge for me... a place where i still go now and where my wife goes too, with me. But do SOMETHING. Life is miracle... take advantage of it

Ill be back with some more specific thoughts later. But i gotta run right now. Bottom line, though, is that you've let her lead you down her path this entire time. She has been in control and (2x4 coming) has had your balls in her hip pocket for a while. You need to reclaim them. Every WW (and yours is definitely a WW, though i am curious about her past and upbringing-- i tend to think that some are more wayward than others) has the same dream: That she will ride off into the sunset with her AP, continue living in her marital home and collect generous alimony payment while maintaining the "friendship" with her ball-less Ex, and that everyone will love her and no one will hate her and she will live happily/cheatily ever after. And you, my friend, have been helping her right along to the fulfillment of that dream...

That was a really downbeat way to end the post, so let me add before I go: I repeat-- Your sitch is not, I think, without hope! Not yet, at least. BUT YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY GOT TO CHANGE YOUR APPROACH! WRT yourself as well as WRT your W. You, burned, have this in you! But its up to you. Stop being the victim and start making things happen for YOU.

BE the ball, Danny...

Wow. Thank you. I can't exaggerate how helpful, informative, inspiring, and timely a sermon that was. I will re-read it several times to make sure I got everything. Are you a psychologist? Sounds like you earn your pay and then some. Thank you for the pro bono work you do here!

As an apology to everyone, my "woe is me" attitude this morning turned out to be a case of having forgotten to eat for 24 hours. Let that be a lesson to us all: analysis paralysis can be hazardous to your health.

I'm very appreciative of all of the support I've been getting these last few days. I doubt it shows when I'm complaining, but I really mean it.

Today I got smacked around by some real-life [verbal] 2x4s. A wise psychiatrist friend/colleague had pretty much the same advice as everyone else: take back my self-respect by standing up for myself against a person who, at least lately, has been treating me quite terribly, almost to the point that you could call it bullying. So DB is starting to feel like something I've been needing for a long time. Goodbye, avoidant personality disorder!

Originally Posted by hoosjim

Bottom line, though, is that you've let her lead you down her path this entire time. She has been in control and (2x4 coming) has had your balls in her hip pocket for a while. You need to reclaim them. Every WW (and yours is definitely a WW, though i am curious about her past and upbringing-- i tend to think that some are more wayward than others) has the same dream: That she will ride off into the sunset with her AP, continue living in her marital home and collect generous alimony payment while maintaining the "friendship" with her ball-less Ex, and that everyone will love her and no one will hate her and she will live happily/cheatily ever after. And you, my friend, have been helping her right along to the fulfillment of that dream...

I'll tell you about FOO in my next tldr post. Hoping I can get some insight into when, if ever, she will snap out of this. But as a matter of fact the argument that set me off today was about whether I'll support her financially for the next 4 years of grad school. WW: "Well, I supported you when you were in grad school!" Yes, dear, and we were newlyweds, and we were building a life together, not tearing it apart (of course I didn't say that, that's bad DB). I said "Well, if we're S then yeah I'll pay. If we're D then you get half of our assets and you can do what you want." WW: "I don't want half of our assets! I just need enough to get through school!" OK, fine, then you get much less, suit yourself. As it pertains to FOO, that statement was VERY telling, and very consistent with what I've learned about her lately.

But THEN she ended the string of texts with her typical hook: "Hope you're having a nice day, I know you love September because it's the best month for photography." I let it sit for 5 hours before responding. But that was the straw that broke the camel's back. It is becoming much clearer to me now that she keeps me in line by throwing me these crumbs. But they work the other way, too. They help her feel good about herself. "Look at me, I'm not so bad, I still send nice texts to my husband." FOO: Irish, Catholic. Argument=bad. Sweep it under the rug and put on a big fake smile. Does she think that absolves her of the past (and probably ongoing) betrayal? I sure don't, and I'm done playing that game.

So in the course of one day I've swung completely around from being a helpless victim to being righteously angry. And don't even get me started on the recurring themes I've been hearing from all of the people who know us IRL and have just been waiting for a chance to tell me how badly they've seen her treat me over the last decade. I know the opinions are biased and the statements are intended to be supportive rather than critical, but it's enlightening. It really helps with detachment. It's also somewhat bleak since the verdict from most sides seems to be: "She has always been like this, you spent 10 years heroically trying to appease her, and it was fine so long as YOU were getting what YOU needed out of the relationship (joy, companionship, sex) but she tore up that contract and now you're holding on to something that ceased to exist a year ago when she jumped into bed with him. She will always be unhappy and there's no evidence that she has any insight into any of this. She will repeat the pattern with the next sucker, while you'll be happier than you could ever imagine."

I had to hear it from a few different people before it started to sink in: "She has been treating you like dirt, and you're worried about how sad she will be without you, and how sad you'll be without her." (That's my pathology, not hers. We both have some healing to do.)

Unfortunately I think I'm now crossing over into the land of "why the heck would I want to be with someone like that?" Well, I have to set that one aside for now since the choice isn't mine. I'm hoping this is part of the process. I know that relationships aren't about power, but the feeling of regaining at least SOME control is very freeing.

Originally Posted by hoosjim

I repeat-- Your sitch is not, I think, without hope! Not yet, at least.

Very curious to hear more about why you say this. I know that there's always room for hope. But she is steamrollering toward D and acting like she's looking forward to it. But this post is already obscenely long so I'll shut my yap now.

---

In the meantime: GAL weekend! Lobster tonight with the parents. Tomorrow is a fundraiser walk with coworkers, and then a wedding (to meet someone new, maybe?). Sunday is a trip with the parents for Japanese food and a concert in my home city. It's all the stuff I used to want to do but wasn't able to because I had to do what SHE wanted to do or else suffer the inevitable consequences.

And I do have to thank WW, because in the last month I have seen a side of my parents that I never knew existed, and we're getting along better than ever before. So there's one thing.

Burned,

Yep. That feeling of why would I want to be with this person is definitely a part of the process, at least as I have experienced it. There can be a lot of anger and resentment for the way they treated you. It's certainly a better feeling than the despair and misery that preceded it, but it's not a place I would want to get stuck long term.

It sounds like you have a great weekend of GAL planned. Enjoy it!

Lots of good stuff in these last few pages. But...

New thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2813773