Can I really do this #5 - DivorceBusting.com

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Definitely a marathon. Exhausted already, but feeling ok.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2803478&#Post2803478

There is the link to #4 if you need or desire to look back and catch up.

Tons going on.

First, Steve, I thank you for your input. The vets that have taken an interest in my situation have meant a great deal to me. I would love just a small get together somewhere tropical to have drinks with umbrellas on a beach to thank you all, toast a glass, and wish all of the best in our lives moving forward.

Steve, your last question regarding my W's depression. With her childhood abuse, father abandoning the family, mother going SUPER religious and forcing it down her throat led to major rebellion, drug abuse, questionable choices, and everything else. This combined with the major health issues, the work issues, and now our marital issues, YES depression is greatly involved. She has had it most of her life, all of her adult life, and takes medication for this.

Your previous post prior talking about options. My concern is that over the last week or so, especially the last few days, she has withdrawn more and more. She is cold, distant, and seems to be fading to a worse place than before. No engagement whatsoever. No interest in much of anything. Is it because our situation? Her thoughts and dreams? Her depression on her situation (outside of our MR)? I don't know. She is on anti-depressions medication and has been for years. They work sometimes, sometimes they need to be changed.

I think I posted yesterday or the day before, that I am pessimistic about a R to a new MR, this is due mostly to her just non desire to do anything, anywhere, anytime regarding our MR. I give her her space. I do engage with the kids, do a few things, and always offer and ask if she would like to participate. The answer is mostly an overwhelming no.

Can a WAW/WW come out of her fog?

My concern is that this is affecting my profession and thus my income. Not necessarily a bad thing if it came to D as it is just less in Child support. Steve, there is a prenup in place stating there will not be any alimony or spousal support.

I am frustrated, lonely, tired of putting my life on hold for her. Steve, I also value my hold dearly the vows I made to her in front of God and all of our witnesses. I do not take this likely. I just don't know that if throwing in the towel makes sense, or is it just the cowards way out.

I have stated prior that as far as finances, I would be much better off if we D. Definitely not my desire. If I hung in there for another year, I would be ok doing that. I would just need some assurance that she was in 100% and we were working with an MC to move forward possibility.

That all makes sense. Sorry if you mentioned the prenup before, I must have forgotten.

Kind of orthogonal to this discussion......you took your vows seriously but had her sign a prenup? Maybe it is just my limited understanding of legal proceedings, but those things seem contradictory.

on the prenup.
Bad prior relationship.
My assets were 1000% more than hers when we entered into marriage, I worked and and had always saved, a small inheritance and some property were inolved. But still, 1000% difference. Not to be specific, but if she had $1000 in the bank, the comparable would be my net worth at a million. Quite different.
Honestly, after putting it together, never thought about it again until our issues. We were a team all the way.
Through our marriage, she was a part of every decision. She was always on title on all of our homes (regardless if there was a mortgage or not), she had access to all of my assets, and full disclosure.
Having that protection now, may be a godsend and foresight I couldn't see.
I am very conservative. She had everything she needed and mostly what she wanted. She worked and did her own thing until children, then we took a pause on her career and she stayed home for a few years. She was attempting to get back into the workforce when the first spinal issue arrived, then downhill from there causing her to not go back to work.
Her "fantasy" is she can get back to work now (chronic, debilitating issues not with standing).
Again, a very conservative thinker outside of the love for my W and children, but the financial, legal and personal advice was to protect myself. It doesn't mean much now since we lost everything in the financial collapse. The only saving grace is the no alimony agreement signed by both of us since there aren't any other assets other than what made it through the bankruptcy.

I guess it is a difference in splitting hairs (agree or not) that Christian marriage is under one set of rules and our current legal system is another. I have and still am in love with this woman. Have been for 21 years. Whenever an issue arose, I just put it on my shoulders and made it happen. I am committed to our MR, my W and our kids.

Fair enough. You are right.......about the Christian marriage vs. legal marriage. Good for you though, that gives you lots of options others might not have.

I still encourage you to stick it out for a longtime. Give it at least a year. That way you can say you tried to be true to your vows.

Steve,
I'm not sure the exact timeline with which this begins.

We had some major issues in 2015 with the financial collapse, then the foreclosure took place early 2017, then the filing Feb of 2018. Those were Major! We did not have a perfect marriage. We were perfect for each other. But I don't know if you would count that as 3-4 years, or 3-4 months since she filed in Feb and withdrew.

I will gladly stick with this as long as I possibly can. I don't know if this is just natural progression, but my W pulling so distant the last 2 weeks is rough. I know its only 2 weeks, but it does affect my attitude and the home life.

W is really pushing to sit our S down and let him in on us getting a D.
I know this will break his heart, and that he does deserve to know if it is really going to happen.
My issue is, W and I had a small discussion on it last evening.

W: Did you read through that link about telling the kids about the D?

Me: I did

W: Well, what do you think?

Me: I'm thinking on it. This is tough.

W: You are just trying to put things off and stretch this out again.

Me: No, my concern is more for our children. Our D already knows since she has heard us. I just don't want to break his innocence even though I know we have to do it. Just struggling with it.

W: I think you are just putting it off.

Me: I believe that you think every action I have in some way is geared towards keeping us in a marriage.

W: Yes, I do.

Me: I will admit that I do not want a D. I would love to find a path for us to work out our MR. I am doing my best to respect the fact that you do not want this. I am not dragging anything out, nor am I stretching this farther than it need be.

W: Well, what do you think about telling him?

Me: I think it would be better to tell him after we have everything worked out, have filed and we only have the waiting period left. That way it is all done, all of us know the timeline, everything has been agreed to, and everyone can begin moving on. Regardless if we are in the same home for a month or two after the divorce is final, at least it is all done.

W: (didn't say anything)

Pretty much end of the discussion.

I don't know what to do with this. She has been much more cold and distant these last several days. She is making an extra effort to have her space. I've given this to her, in fact, I notice, but as far as she knows, I am good with it.

Her request for more space in bed has been totally granted and respected.

Weird. I woke up around 2 am to find her leg over mine and her holding onto my arm.

This morning she was almost pleasant when we said our "have a good day" comments to each other.

Limbo is weird, and I want to protect our children (weird that I always put "my" children then always correct it to "our") through this whole process and I don't know which way is best. I don't want them experiencing the limbo longer than they need to. I want them to concentrate on school, activities, sports, friends and fun. I don't want their home life to basically be a de-militarized zone where everyone is on edge waiting for the next thing to happen. I am jealous at times as my W gets the luxury of spending all day with them while I have to go "slay the dragon" and "bring home the bacon". That isn't too fair at this point. It worked when we were a team.

I know she is still coming out of her thyroid rage, so I am trying to be as patient as I can be.

How much should someone put up with?

I'm ok with my situation, I am not OK with our children's situation.

I'm positive that I just made a mistake, but had to share since I am open, honest, and totally imperfect.

Had youtube on this morning at work. A song came on that was VERY significant in my MR. Very sensual. Watched and listened. Then I sent the link to my W in am email.

I know it was stupid, desperate, whatever. I miss her so much at this moment.

I probably will get no response, but felt the need to send it to her.

Definitely pursuit. What else can I do but try to show the woman whom is the love of my life, that I LOVE her with all my heart.

2x4's expected.

I love my W. I want to keep my family together.

I want to get back to enjoying life and hopefully my family.

Don't know where she is at this particular time in the morning. But I will update when/if she responds.

Yep bad move. But it is done. No used crying over spilled milk.

Just get back up on the DB horse and start afresh.

Just lost today...
Steve, I know I screwed up with the reach out and pursuit.

But what are you supposed to do when your heart hurts, your kids are suffering, and the woman you love is just a selfish B? You mentioned yesterday that since all evidence points towards no PA, that my vows to my wife still stand. I agree.

So GAL, 180, etc. etc. put us all in a limbo state that sacrifices our children's immediate needs and keeps us all in a bad situation? Just struggling with this, how to justify it for myself, and how do WE (my entire family) make it through to hopefully the other side?

I have begun to see my W very differently over the last month. I still love her very much. I now, more than ever, see her imperfections as well (which make her almost more endearing). She is not perfect, not flawless (although if you put her in a room with 100 "10's" I would choose her in a second).

Other than the email this morning, which I'm sure gave her both pleasure and pain, I am DB'ing all the time.

Not perfect, just a LBS that is still in love with his W and wants to keep his family together. Unfortunately the odds are against me, but then again, I have always been a risk taker.

Don't beat yourself up over it. Like Steve said, no use crying over spilled milk. Just get back on track.

JustSad- so sorry for your pain you are experiencing, sounds like you really love your wife and your children. I do wonder if WASs are secretely enjoing pursuits by their LBSs like in your case your youtube video, and maybe somewhere deep inside things like these touch them and make them stop and think of what they are doing. I don't mean pursuing all the time, but when an odd slip happens like you did I don't think you should beat yourself up for that. The fact is that you try and she knows. She is the one who will have to live with the thought that she has destroyed a family, not you.

To me it looks like she doesn't quite want to let you go- by her mixed messages when you were sleeping together.

You sound like a perfect husband btw, I wish mine was 10% as nice

Originally Posted by JustSad

So GAL, 180, etc. etc. put us all in a limbo state that sacrifices our children's immediate needs and keeps us all in a bad situation? Just struggling with this, how to justify it for myself, and how do WE (my entire family) make it through to hopefully the other side?

For better or for worse.......

This period of limbo is giving you a gift! That gift is to be able to look your kids in the eyes and tell them without reservation that you did everything you could to hold the family together. Even through this rough patch.

The great lie out there is that kids are better off from a broken home than in a broken home. (Some big southern bald guy likes to say that.) I say HOGWASH. Kids are better off with parents that care enough about them to put their personal wants and wishes aside for THEIR betterment. So I know you are saying "I want to do this for the kids. But deep down is it really for them? Or for you?"

You can't control what the other side ends up being. But you can control whether your family makes it through. At least you and the kids. Your wife is not in a mental state right now to be a parent that puts personal wants and wishes aside for the betterment of the kids. So you be that for them.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Originally Posted by JustSad

Always great advice Steve85.

Thanks for the input everyone.

MrsJLS, I wish my wife would see it that way!

Steve, I am truly wondering if it is for me or the kids. I am not wanting to justify anything through them. I know they are better off in an unbroken home. Can I "outlast" my W's issues to get there? I would love to say I am strong enough but there are days.... I know that I am and that I can, but each day, week, month that passes, we just seem to get further apart. She is more distant. Is this normal? How will she realize how her life could/would be without me if she doesn't? If I provide for my family and life is "easy" not perfect, but easy for her to just "maintain" and plan for her exit, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Would it be better to pull the rug out and let it play out that way?

I DON'T KNOW! I don't think anyone knows. That is the question before all of us. There are tons of scenarios that could or may play out. Is this the right way, the wrong way, or is this the best way? Which path to take? Truthfully,my concern is more on our children than my MR as this will affect them WAY more in their viewpoints on their relationships than it will my W and I as we are adults and can understand much better.

I need to take my family and just lay on a beach for a week! I would love that, dream of that often. Just no problems, issues, etc. no pressure, just relaxation and family time.

This possibility is a total dream at this point and I know that. But a man needs to dream sometimes.

Thank you EVERYONE for your input. I am WAY too NGS and am working on that. DB all the way.

Thanks for being there. Just venting and getting feedback helps more than you can imagine.

JS out.

I went on one final beach trip with the full family while I was in my long limbo in-house separation. I had incredibly high hopes, but it was miserable because the (now) ex was miserable and acted like she was younger than out youngest and made it very clear that she was uncomfortable and wanted to be anywhere else. How about a trip with just you and the kids? I did that, too, several month further into our in-home separation, and it was awesome -- one of the best weeks of my life. It was very healing and reminded me I can parent on my own, which I needed to remember, especially at that moment.

The only other thing I'd say is that, should things go to divorce, you definitely don't want to be saying things to your kids afterwards like you did everything you could. That will cast your ex in a bad light in front of your children, and that's a cardinal no-no for their healing and development. Even if she deserves every bit of it, you have to avoid the temptation of doing it. No, just live your life now so that they'll KNOW you did all you could and leave it at that. And they will know, especially at their ages (same as mine, BTW).

Originally Posted by JRuss

The only other thing I'd say is that, should things go to divorce, you definitely don't want to be saying things to your kids afterwards like you did everything you could. That will cast your ex in a bad light in front of your children, and that's a cardinal no-no for their healing and development. Even if she deserves every bit of it, you have to avoid the temptation of doing it. No, just live your life now so that they'll KNOW you did all you could and leave it at that. And they will know, especially at their ages (same as mine, BTW).

Doesn't this amount to the same thing?

No matter what happens. Whether we agree or disagree, I will never speak badly about the mother of my children to them ever.

My children will know by my actions how I conducted myself (and likewise how my W conducted herself). As to how they view how things happened or will happen, that is up to their interpretation.

I know my W is lost presently. She is not the person she used to be. I hope that someday she will get through and get to a better place whether with me or not.

She does love our children. I know that and they know that. I cannot stand in judgement of her. I can only control myself and my actions.

I didn't sleep last night. Laying in bed going through the week. Integrating logic in a very illogical situation. I didn't do great, but I didn't do horrible this week. Some steps forward, some back. Reflecting back, I made the mistake of jumping on the rollercoaster ride a little too much, let things get inside my head and affect my overall attitude. Although it wasn't horrible, I could have done much better if I was adulting better. Trying to soak myself into work to distract me and at the same time making sure my kids are not left behind during this total disconnect with my W. Weird. As I lay resting, contemplating, reflecting, etc. all through the night. I have realized my W's sleep patterns. She starts off fairly cold, distant and farther away. By 3-4 am, she is moving over towards me. I am giving her space, but if I am steady and awake or not, she is moving towards me. The skin/skin connection (totally non sexual) happens in that time period. Example, this morning the actually reached out toward me and when her hand met mine, she grasped and held my hand. WEIRD. A few other minor, but skin on skin contact happened coming from someone who supposedly is moving on and is "done" with me. D had a bunch of friends stay the night and they were loud, stayed up late and I believe they had a great time. LOVE the fact that even though my D and I have a strained relationship, that her friends are very comfortable around me and feel safe and happy in our home. W is still all over the place. Cordial sometimes, even actually nice at others, but as soon as she feels that she is back in a comfort zone, she rebels and closes up and for the best descriptive term for the woman I love, she becomes a cold hearted B.

Taking Steve's advice to heart. and I have said this for the last few weeks. Limbo [censored], but it is a gift. As of this moment, WE (my family) have made it through another week in our home. Not perfect by any stretch. I may be blind as a bat as to what my W is really doing out there. Reminder of the health challenges, kid summer responsibilities, health issues, and all of the other stuff, I still feel my wife is looking for a way out presently with the very weird interactions all along the way.

Detaching better will help. Tough to do with an in house Separation. Hopefully my GAL gets better. I hope to have lunch today with a High school friend that is in town. She is Totally married, and of course so am I, so it is just a friend get together.

Up early again today. 3 teenagers in the house attributed to the no sleep thing. I do love that my D feels totally comfortable with her friends over. W expressed concern that she wasn't in the mood for that earlier in the day. I said I would take care of getting them dinner and watching over them.

To recap. Not a crazy week. I did ride the rollercoaster WAY too much and need to work on jumping off that ride and being more of the lighthouse.

Headed into the unknown (weekend and what may/may not happen) but at the moment I feel actually decent about our week. No ultimate hopes or dreams as this is a LONG process.

Happy Friday to all. I hope your weeks went amazingly better than mine. I do read and follow other situations. NOT a vet by any means, but if I feel I can add, I will definitely comment.

Sandi2, Am I just crazy, or on the Ozzy Osbourne Crazy Train?

Her sleeping "patterns" are bothering you and taking up too much head space. I look at it the same as having a dream. It is not intentional, and you should not give it any meaning. Is there a spare bedroom?

If there is going to be an in-house separation.....then by gosh, start behaving as if you are separated. Can you do that, Mr. Nice Guy? Obviously. what you've been doing hasn't worked. It's time to really apply the last resort technique.

Seriously, you have to stop being Mr. Nice Guy. Which do you want more, to save your family......or always be seen as this nice guy with your W & kids? I think you need to honestly answer that question for yourself. There is a time and place for a man to be gentle, but I promise you it is never the time & place.... whenever you dealing with a wayward W. And, you have a daughter taking cues from her wayward mother...�.and a son who is learning how to be a man from you.

So, she basically gives you the bomb drop again, and the two of you go on as if nothing was said? That's what happened last time......and it wasn't successful. So, I suggest you 180 from the previous blueprint.

Sandi.
As always you are absolutely correct.

The NGS has got to stop. I didn't read your post until this morning, but I did have the chance to utilize it this weekend.

An uneventful weekend until Sunday afternoon. D wanted to go do something social and asked for money. I informed her, what I had before, that if she needed spending money, she should see her Mother as my D had told me specifically that she "hates" me, doesn't even like me and doesn't want a relationship with me. I told my D that I love her, will always be here for her, but she must respect me in our home. Also informed her that I would make sure she had all the essentials, food, water, roof, clothes, etc. but that I would not be funding anything else.

D asked, I declined. She asked her Mom who then came to me and actually asked that I give her the money so she can give it to our D. My W and I had discussed our position to hopefully guide our D back to respect and responsibility. BUT the FIRST time this issue comes up, she says she has changed her mind and it isn't fair. I said, why didn't you say this a couple of days ago? She said, well, it didn't come up. I told her that I am just trying to do what I feel is right (as parents we all make mistakes and sometimes fly blindly, so if anyone has some input on this, please respond). I stuck to my guns. My W then proceeded to tell me that this was "all about me" again. I said it absolutely is not, it is about our D and trying to get her to learn respect and responsibility for the future. She is my D and not my friend. I am her father. She doesn't have to live me now. I just hope that some of the lessons and guidance that I am trying to instill will help her in the future. I would much rather have her respect and friendship when she is an adult, that a false teenager friendship now.

W left. She was cold and distant and predictable the rest of the day.

Back to the major situation. My W is cake eating a ton. I am allowing it. I am going to re-read the LRT part of DR today. I have ordered NMMNG and will begin reading when it arrives.

I thought about what you posted (not even reading it until today so very meaningful to back it up when I did) a lot this weekend. My children are going to take their relationship examples mainly from their parents.

What example am I setting?
My own 2x4's to myself:
I have sacrificed my dignity to try and save my marriage.
I have been withdrawn and pretty much a doormat for a long time (not as much lately, but still a doormat) and have pretty much almost "accepted" within reason my W's actions.
I have been holding on to the remotest of hopes of R and a new MR. This I don't see as terrible as I do want them to learn that anything worthwhile is worth fighting for.
They have seen me angry, depressed, and truly not myself through a lot of this prior to DB. Things are changing, but there is some damage done there and I take responsibility to work on this and repair it.
The relationship with my children has suffered as I went through the financial collapse and the resulting choice of my W to end the MR. I would love to say I am better at shutting things down and not letting it affect me in front of them, but I (we) lost everything and then to have my W quit sometimes was a bit too much and yes, it came out badly.

What example is my W setting?
Just to clarify, our D knows as she heard some of the conversations and arguments. She knows that my W absolutely wants out and she also knows that I would do anything for us to stay together as a family.

My W doesn't want to be married to me. Why is she still there? This is showing my D that she should remain in a bad relationship that she doesn't want to be in, for MONTHS, even years, sleep in the same bed, interact socially occasionally, have family dinners, etc.

What is this showing my D about life, relationships, self-esteem, dignity, respect, responsibility, etc?

This is very disturbing to me and I am very concerned.

Questions for all PLEASE!!!

DB seems to have an affect. It has only been a little over 4 months but we have kind of gotten into a pattern of her space/my space. Comfortable space with nothing happening at all. Things will be calm for about a week, then usually on the weekend my W has to push something to get the issue back to the forefront and seemingly justify closing off again. But nothing happens. I am doing way better (need lots of improvement still) on validation. Detachment is difficult due to the in house S, financial issues, etc. Maybe this is just myself making an excuse not to get out more for GAL to help me detach more. One of the issues I have written down to contemplate over the next day or so.

QUESTION: I don't want to be a Mr. NG any longer. What are the best steps to accomplish this knowing that this is going to enrage my W?

Again, my issues are that I don't know how to do this and picking the best path. I know there is only a 50/50 at best shot of getting this to work. Knowing that, there are going to be many, many paths to choose along the way, and they will change. I need to learn how to recognize which is correct for the long term, and not just which one is good to "keep the peace" for now.

QUESTION: If Limbo is a gift, how is pushing it a different way going to help better?

Big questions and I am hoping for some great feedback.

Major eye opening experience on Friday not related to my MR happened that caused this big reflection over the weekend. Life is too short. If this takes 3 years to keep my family together, I am up to the investment. If my W and I end up at our 50th anniversary, That would mean we invested a very short time during our marriage through this major issue. A small sacrifice for love and a lasting MR and keeping our family together.

Happy Monday to all and I hope the sun is shining in some way on your life!

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An uneventful weekend until Sunday afternoon. D wanted to go do something social and asked for money. I informed her, what I had before, that if she needed spending money, she should see her Mother as my D had told me specifically that she "hates" me, doesn't even like me and doesn't want a relationship with me. I told my D that I love her, will always be here for her, but she must respect me in our home. Also informed her that I would make sure she had all the essentials, food, water, roof, clothes, etc. but that I would not be funding anything else.

Well, this is JMHO. I think this particular action encourages your D to team up with her mother against you. Plus, I think it might bring forth more bitterness without teaching her to respect you. I know how hard this stuff can be, and trust me, I made so many mistakes.

I tried a couple of things that worked fairly well. One was that my kids had an allowance of money each week. They also had chores. I am huge believer in kids having a chores, as a way of teaching them responsibility and pride. If they didn't do their chores, they didn't get the allowance. If they wanted to buy something, they had to save up their allowance. (Occasionally, there would be an exception, but not often.)

The other thing I used was something like a merit/demerit system. I didn't stick to this too long, and I can't remember why, other than it probably didn't suit my particular personality.

When it comes to training children to show respect, I think it has to be right at the moment. Kids must know what the parent expects from them. So, tell them in advance. Let her know you will not tolerate tantrums, or verbal disrespect and if she gets mad at you and proceeds to throw a fit, you call her out right then. Have a set discipline in mind for these type of issues, b/c they are going to happen. So, whenever it happens, you will call her out and if she doesn't humbly apologize or if an apology isn't sufficient, you tell her she is grounded, or whatever her discipline may be. I think that's more beneficial than waiting to discipline them later when they are wanting to go somewhere, etc.

One thing I have seen parents do that I don't agree is when a kid has been planning something really important for a while (like a trip to Disney World), and the day or two before the event, the kid messes up......so as punishment, the parent won't let the kid go to the event. When this child has been planning for weeks/months and so excited about it and the parent just kills the whole thing...�..I believe it causes a bitterness in the spirit of that child. Maybe that's just me, and there are always exceptions...�.you know, if the crime was bad enough.

With your D14,I think it's best not to refer her to the mom. B/c I don't think mom is going to back you, and it will just cause more division in the family. I'm trying to remember when D14 was ugly to you...�..is that when she was grounded? Did she ever apologize?

As a note to you, JS, I realize what she said hurt you. However, you are the adult man here, and you can't take to heart what a 14 year old girl says in a fit of anger. Most teenage girls are melodramatic when they are upset......or anytime else, really. I'm not excusing her! She should have been disciplined for her behavior. But what you said to her......�.I'm afraid, just perpetuates the feelings in her. At some point soon, I think having a heart to heart about some of these issues with her, might help...�...given at the right time. Maybe next weekend you could take her for a ride, just the two of you (no mom) and have a father to daughter talk. She knows just enough about what is going on between her parents to be scared. She's acting out. She's disrespectful. Have the talk. Be open, honest, and loving.

I use to read parenting books by Dr. James Dobson. I thought they were excellent, especially the ones about teenagers.

((hugs))

Thanks Sandi as always for your input, advice and guidance.

Thinking on this, I believe I am right in my stance, but I do need to find a way to get my D back engaged. I am leaning more on the allowance side, with a twist. Maybe giving her the opportunity for her to work for me 4-5 hours per week. She would come to the office once or twice a week in the afternoons. Work on some social media stuff for my company, and I'd pay her. It would give her the opportunity to put her skills to work and improve them, earn some money, and give her a chance to see her father outside of the home situation interacting with other adults in the world. It will also give her some perspective on the working world and some great self-esteem building as she would be earning her money as opposed to the entitled attitude she believes presently.

I see the alignment between D & W against me and I have been struggling with this. I know my W will exploit this as much as she can to justify her own selfishness. I also will not put my D in between us and use her as a pawn in any way. If I can show my D a little about life, help her with responsibility, I think the respect part will come when she sees how hard I work, how things actually work in the world, and hopefully doing some work together will bring us closer.

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Thinking on this, I believe I am right in my stance, but I do need to find a way to get my D back engaged. I am leaning more on the allowance side, with a twist. Maybe giving her the opportunity for her to work for me 4-5 hours per week. She would come to the office once or twice a week in the afternoons. Work on some social media stuff for my company, and I'd pay her. It would give her the opportunity to put her skills to work and improve them, earn some money, and give her a chance to see her father outside of the home situation interacting with other adults in the world. It will also give her some perspective on the working world and some great self-esteem building as she would be earning her money as opposed to the entitled attitude she believes presently.

That sounds like an excellent idea!

Originally Posted by JustSad

I have ordered NMMNG and will begin reading when it arrives.

Good, because....

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QUESTION: I don't want to be a Mr. NG any longer. What are the best steps to accomplish this knowing that this is going to enrage my W?

I think maybe you misunderstand NGS. The book isn't about how nice guys are too nice and therefore doormats and need to fix that, the book is about how the whole "nice guy" thing is really a cover for controlling and manipulation. Nice guys are also quite passive/aggressive. On the surface they appear to be nice and friendly, but in a long term relationship their controlling tactics slowly wear their partner down until it gets to the point where the partner just can't take it any more. A LOT of the men ending up here are full blown nice guys (I was one). The book is a revelation for many of us because we don't know we are controlling and manipulating and passive/aggressive. But once you read it you recognize it in yourself, you can do something about it. If you correct NGS then your W will not be enraged, she will be pleased. I'm not saying it will save your M but her reaction will definitely not be a negative one.

I'm not saying all nice guys have NGS, the nice guys as described in the book may or may not be you or other "nice" guys you know. But I think just about everyone can learn something from the book, even if someone doesn't have full blown NGS they can probably still recognize unhealthy personal patterns in reading it.

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My W doesn't want to be married to me. Why is she still there? This is showing my D that she should remain in a bad relationship that she doesn't want to be in, for MONTHS, even years, sleep in the same bed, interact socially occasionally, have family dinners, etc.

What is this showing my D about life, relationships, self-esteem, dignity, respect, responsibility, etc?

This is very disturbing to me and I am very concerned.

Not sure what you find "disturbing" about her staying, do you think it would be better for your D if your W left?

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Again, my issues are that I don't know how to do this and picking the best path. I know there is only a 50/50 at best shot of getting this to work. Knowing that, there are going to be many, many paths to choose along the way, and they will change. I need to learn how to recognize which is correct for the long term, and not just which one is good to "keep the peace" for now.

Just understand that it took your W years to become a WAW and no one thing you do now is going to matter. The aggregate of all that you do does matter over the long haul, but no one thing is going to make or break things. So don't sweat daily decisions. You'll make some good ones and some bad ones, just learn from the bad ones and keep moving forward.

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QUESTION: If Limbo is a gift, how is pushing it a different way going to help better?

I think "limbo" is absolutely the wrong word for any LBS to use. If you are in limbo then you completely misunderstand DB'ing. The whole point of DB'ing is to NOT be in limbo. Does getting out, getting a life, becoming strong and indepedendent, being a great father to your kids sound like being stuck in limbo? Limbo isn't a "gift", it's a curse. It'll slowly kill you. Standing for your M doesn't mean camping out in limbo, it just means branching off into a new independent life in all ways EXCEPT pursuing a new mate.

Thanks AS.

I read a little about the NMMNG book and realize it is not me becoming a jerk and more about looking inward on my world view. The few things that I have seen, I recognize a lot of the traits (good and bad) already in myself. Very much looking forward to diving into it and hopefully having some enlightenment.

I guess my comment on your "limbo" issue is that I have been told on this board several times that limbo is the gift of time. It allows you the time GAL, 180's, detach, etc. and if you are still in the same home, it hopefully gives your spouse a chance to see the changes sooner that if you are physically separated and only seeing each other once a week for a few moments or even further apart if there are no children. I am standing up for my MR.

I agree that it took my W years to get to this point. She did not make this decision lightly, nor would she ever (if ever) refocus on our MR quickly. I am working more on detaching and moving on. NOT focusing on the daily things, and what she is doing or not doing. I'm focused on my children and our future. I am determined to do my best everyday. I feel stronger each day as well. I also know that whatever happens, I will be ok and I will be there for my children. This is HUGE for me as I put a lot of value in our family and our MR.

Originally Posted by JustSad

I guess my comment on your "limbo" issue is that I have been told on this board several times that limbo is the gift of time. It allows you the time GAL, 180's, detach, etc. and if you are still in the same home, it hopefully gives your spouse a chance to see the changes sooner that if you are physically separated and only seeing each other once a week for a few moments or even further apart if there are no children. I am standing up for my MR.

You are absolutely right, the word does get used here a lot in that context. I personally don't like that particular word as it applies to these situations though, because the word "limbo" is defined as "an uncertain period of awaiting a decision or resolution" or "a place or state of restraint or confinement" and as such is in contrast to what DB'ing is. DB'ing isn't about confining yourself, it's about setting yourself (and your spouse) free and if you can do that, then recon may become an option. I'm not trying to split hairs, just trying to explain my opinion that it is perhaps not the best word choice when it comes to DB'ing.

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I agree that it took my W years to get to this point. She did not make this decision lightly, nor would she ever (if ever) refocus on our MR quickly. I am working more on detaching and moving on. NOT focusing on the daily things, and what she is doing or not doing. I'm focused on my children and our future. I am determined to do my best everyday. I feel stronger each day as well. I also know that whatever happens, I will be ok and I will be there for my children. This is HUGE for me as I put a lot of value in our family and our MR.

PERFECTLY stated, that's exactly what DB'ing is!

Nothing eventful last evening.
I got home from work a little later than usual.

W had made a nice dinner for us, so that was nice. Being I had to work a little later than usual, made the evening a little different. W is way cold and distant. My view at this point is "whatever" . Nice, but quiet dinner. A couple of tv shows, then bed.

W is still struggling. Healhwise, painwise, uncomfortable, etc. I have no idea.

She got up at 330am this morning.

I've reached out to an L to draw up paperwork for the D is it would go through. We don't want to "use" lawyers, and I will express her viewpoints during the Lawyer's questions on my side. I like to get this one, propose to her and see what she thinks. Easier to file jointly, no lawyers, if everying has its I's dotted and t's crossed.

OK, I just thought of something. Have you ever seen the movie "Let Me In"?

Its about a vampire (they don't age so she is perpetually a little girl (though there are hints in the movie that she might have once been male)). She "attaches" an enabler who goes out and murders victims to feed her with their blood. I think they are a guardian or something. Once they grow up and get old, she moves on to a younger guardian.

That sounds like your STBXW. Using someone until they no longer suit her purposes. As you've said, OM's day is coming..........

Hey Steve,
Thanks. I will look up the movie when I get a chance.
I don't know what the last sentence means, I know you follow and post on a lot of sitch's, but I am still fairly certain that my W is not in a PA. There may be an EA, but the fact that she never leaves the house, rarely puts on makeup or nice clothes, never goes out at night, etc. Leads me to believe that. I have given up snooping, but do check our vehicles for maintenance, etc. and she has only put 500 miles on the vehicle since Memorial Day. Basically, grocery runs, pharmacy runs, and just general running the kids around.

JMHO on that. I believe by reading the other sitch's on here, that I would have some impression if she was seeing someone. When a woman gets herself together for a rendezvous, it takes a little time, i.e. hair, nails, makeup etc. My wife's average time to get ready for us to just go to dinner when this would happen was about an hourish. It also takes some time for them to wipe off the war paint afterwards. Generally, she is wearing the same, or just very comfortable inside clothes when I get home from work. With her medical and energy levels, I think this would be fairly difficult for her to pull off. And, she would have to leave the kids at home alone. They are old enough, but I don't believe she would do that.

JS. Sorry. That last post should have been to OK in his thread. My bad.

No worries Steve.

I am patient. Just curious as to how this is all going to play out.

W is still very cold and distant. She still has great difficulty sleeping. This is a new thing for her, but if has been going on for a few months now. She used to be able to sleep until 7 or 8am, sometimes 9, lately it is up somewhere between 3-5am. Don't know if it is emotions, pain, or a combination. We have not had any significant conversation since Sunday. She did email yesterday and commented that it was easier to communicate that way since our conversations don't go well. I didn't take any bait, answered her question, and moved on.

Still greatly confused as to her timeline and if she even has one. What is her plan and does she even have one of those? She isn't working, won't look for a job, doesn't go anywhere, takes 2-3 hour naps a day, doesn't spend any money (there isn't very much in our joint account for things other than groceries).

Truly just very confused. Is she just shutting herself off or just shutting me out? I am not pursuing, I am in fact fairly detached. Over the last few weeks, I have made a concious effort to not even look in her direction as much as in the past. I am not ignoring her, just not giving her the attention I once was. This is doing wonders for me as it keeps my mind from wandering back to her. MUCH NEEDED!

With the kids going back to school in a few weeks, things are going to ramp back up again with schedules, etc. making things just a little more chaotic for her, but will also give her back her 5-6 hours of space each day while they are gone.

I don't know how that will change anything as she is so exhausted and shuttling the kids will only compound that issue.

But, who am I to say and who am I to know.

Just curious on feedback on this. AS had stated that he didn't like limbo as it made things mostly just "status quo" with no look towards any solutions, hence the reason for the ask.

I think your W has some type of game plan, and is keeping it well hid from you, or she believes you'll have to provide for her. Does that woman she was texting so much, live near? I'm wondering if she has promised to let your W live with her, or made her think she'd take care of her some way. IDK, but it's unusual for a WW not to have some type of plan. I mean, she will believe lies told by the OP, and take chances, but not to have something, is unusual from what I have seen.

If she believes you are going to financially support her, then she's just blowing smoke. She starts the b.s. about getting a job, etc., to make you get up and take care of things. She has no intentions of getting a job. That's why I thought it would wake her up if she was left to manage on her own. As long as you are there to care for her, and support her...�.then she can dream of another life all day long.

You never said why you thought your W rejected the idea of moving to a new location. I didn't understand why that was completely tossed away? Have you rejected the offers by the other employers?

Sandi,
The new job offer just wasn't enough for me to accept knowing that I was going to have to pay child support and the increase in the cost of living, etc. Very brief discussion with W that talked about the only way it could happen is if we did it together, she was not interested in opening that discussion at all. I passed on the offer and let it go.
The woman she is texting with does live in a neighboring city. But, if she were to go and live there, it is not a favorable school district for our children and it would be about a 45 minute commute each way for her to get the kids back and forth in their current schools.

She is an intelligent woman. Although sheltered by myself, admittedly, from the real world for quite some time, she is not stupid. This is what is so confusing to me!

I do believe that she is just stuck in the fantasy world presently. If she has a plan, she is very devious about her intentions and very good about keeping it hidden. This would have been way outside of her character before, but totally possible now. Unless her intention is to have a very expensive, long legal battle, there just isn't enough money there for her to support herself and there will be much less after as well. I may be very naive in looking at it that way, but it does come down to just math. With her not doing anything at all, our lease coming to term mid 2019, there is a timeline on most of this.

As I said, she is becoming more and more distant over the last couple of weeks, but still surprises me sometimes as well with a reach out here and there. I don't jump at these, but I do recognize them.

I truly don't know what else to say other than if she does have a plan, it must be a good one. If she doesn't, then she is going to be in for a huge shock.

I am very tempted to just draw up the paperwork and get it to her. I don't want this to happen. I still love my W and want to keep our family together, but this almost seems like the last chance I have of getting her to realize the ramifications of her decision. I truly don't want her back just for her own financial security, but I don't know any other way to give her the reality shock needed for her to see how her future will really be. Again, Sandi I may not know of her true intentions and plan and I may be the one totally in the dark.

bump

JS, nothing you typed tells me you should stop DBing. My W was much like yours. "I want out. I want to make that happen." But then no action towards.

My suggestion is, no matter how tough, just ride it out. If you ask me, and I believe I stated this before, you explored the new job for the wrong reasons. You used it as leverage to try to get her to commit to the marriage. That is pursuit. And that is pressure. Her distance is probably in response to that. We talk a lot on this board about the pursuit and distance dynamic. Look it up. It is a REAL thing.

So she is distant. So? She is still there! This is why limbo is called the gift of time. I am sorry but filing would simply give her what she wants. Again, just like the job, you'd be doing it for the wrong reasons!! Filing to try to get her to realize the ramifications of her decision is the wrong reason to file! It will end up with you getting what you don't want, an actual D.

IF you really want to get a D, that is the reason for filing. And trust me, WASs have a sixth sense about all of this. They know when you file for D if it is to pursue and pressure....or if it is really because you are done. Why? Because in the first you have been terrible at detachment and GAL. In the 2nd case you will have GAL like a madman...and have fully detached. She will feel that and know that you aren't just bluffing with the D!

So JS, how is GAL going? What are your plans for tonight? You have no excuses for not being busy. Either you are busy with D14 and/or S11, or you are busy without them! You are in a great position because even if you W is away you have an in house babysitter in D14! So what are your plans for tonight after work?

How is your detachment going? Are you still emotionally attached to every things she says and does? It sure feels like it after reading your last update! Go reread the detachment thread. You will never be successful without detachment. Even if she came to you today and sincerely wanted to R, you'd be doomed to fail if you are overly attached. So work on that.

Your kids first, GAL and detachment should be your focus!

Steve,
Thanks.
I am struggling just in the knowledge that this is going to be a very long drawn out process. Not the "I don't know if it is worth it" issue, it is more that I don't know if I have the energy to do this. Even with my GAL parts of my life, the enormity of everything just bears down on me almost every moment of each day. Other than that nugget of knowledge, I am doing good. My weight is down 20 lbs. I'm averaging about 10 miles per day walking and a little running. Lifting a few weights as well. Playing with my S and have had a few instances where my D and I have actually connected a bit. I am confident that if need be, I will be ok after D.
I am also confident that I still love my W and don't want to D
I can't mind read, and I truly don't know how long she can stay in her current state, but I just don't know again, if I have the energy.
My other GAL's have mostly been out of the home a few more hours a week. Reading a little more (this is generally on the weekends and I would be in a separate room. Outside of that, on the weekends I try to get the kids out, if not we play some board or video games, listen to music or just hang out. D is out with a friend for a couple of days. Taking my S to dinner tonight. W is invited, but not pressured. Don't know if she will come yet, but we are going regardless.
Tomorrow just doing some house cleaning and yard work. I usually take a longer walk/run on the weekends as well. Do some reading and then either hang out with my S or if he is with his friends just watch some tv.
The detachment part I am still working on that. I feel stronger with it every day.

A really good weekend on on my children's notes.

S and I went to dinner Friday. Good time. W did not come and it did not interrupt our fun.

Saturday was more of chore/housework day.

Sunday was a great day with my S. We hung out, played some games, ran some errands and even did some chores together around the house. It was relaxing and fun. W had a rough time healthwise, but did take the day and stayed mostly to herself. I let her have her space and went on and enjoyed my S. Overall a good day.

I made dinner and my D got home from her trip mid afternoon of which when she came in I hugged her and she hugged me back (big for her as she is not that physical anyway and us working on our relationship so YEA!). She rested awhile, then ALL of us sat down and had a family dinner. It was relaxed, enjoyable and if I humbly may say so, pretty good! Went in and said goodnight to my D we chatted about her trip and said that her and I need to do something this week. She said great. Very happy Daddy at the moment on this. Baby steps and establishing good communication and hoping she will allow me to become a bigger part in her life again.

W even had seconds and thats good since she hasn't been eating well at all due to her intestinal issues.

Here is where I am struggling. W and I can "fake" it fairly well. What that means to me is that we can make nice, make plans, take care of the kids, and do everything parents, and almost "partners" do. We are even cordial to one another and laugh together if we are watching a show or something. You know the rest, we sleep in the same bed, etc.

Our problems erupt when we start to discuss pretty much anything important (sometimes even the kids if it involves money). Mostly these are financial related. Health bills, shopping, not enough money in the joint account, kids are going to need back to school stuff, Kid activities that require money, and then I get hit yesterday. My S is turning that age where he wants a phone. His sister got hers on the same birthday as well. He deserves it, but I am uncomfortable for "us" to commit to another monthly bill together. I don't even want to have that conversation (S talked to me about it yesterday when we were hanging out). Also, now he has an event to go to that requires some $$$ and a sport that he wants to do that requires a bunch of $$$. Just me bringing up that subject to her or her to me will put her both very aggressive and defensive and would end up on her just blaming me on the financial side for everything. I am not holding any money back except for bills.

Again, here is where I am struggling. We are in a stalemate. We do not discuss anything. DR rules prohibit me initiating ANY R talks and W hasn't discussed it or wanted to discuss it for weeks. Again, she is doing absolutely nothing that I can see (referencing Sandi's comment that her plan may be very well hidden) to move this forward. She has so far not made any effort to get a job (outside of her "friend's" offer and dream of someday getting a part time job that will allow her and I quote "when and if she is able to", so really, not going to happen IMHO). She doesn't go out, doesn't leave the house, can't drive at night, isn't on her phone incessantly. In fact, if she is having an EA, she is rather respectful of me and not texting or whatever when I am next to her or late night in bed or anything like that.

I don't want to get blindsided by anything. My W is very stubborn, so when she finally did make up her mind to end our MR, I believe that it will be very difficult for her to go back on her decision. I still feel that our family can be saved, but I also feel like this stalemate is not doing anything positive at this moment. I am just looking for feedback on what I should be doing. Kids start back to school in a couple of weeks. This will give her more time during the day to get things done if need be, but it also puts a time burden on her for the carpool duties when she is generally used to doing her errands when her body allows her to. Funny how the rest of us make it to where we need to be on schedule, and someone who never has one, complains about the smallest things sometimes.

I looked at her very different this weekend as well. She was not my W. She was feeling fairly bad, and I noticed her skin was very pale and a little clammy. She did her hair and I did let her know she did a good job (I would have told anybody that I know that got their hair done how it looked.) She did complain about having to do it herself (she has for years, so not a new thing) I didn't say anything on that. I didn't over compliment or fawn all over her. Just "hair looks good".

I read the situations where the LBS gets to the end of their rope, drops it, and moves on. I am contemplating this as I said last week. I know this is a decision that I have to make. Do I just have a L draw up the papers, give it to her, and either start the war with another L or she just signs and we just wait the waiting period? Would this even give her pause (I know, VERY small chance of this happening).

BUT, I am just feeling very taken advantage of. I work hard, pay all of the bills. There isn't much left, but there is a nice roof over her head, a nice vehicle in the garage, food in the fridge, cell phone, cable, pretty much all of the necessities and a few of the luxuries in life. She gets to sit on her a$$ everyday, enjoy and spend time with our children, watch tv,. Here is an example of Saturday since I was there most of the day. W got up around 6ish. got her coffee and watched tv for about 4 hours. I made my S breakfast and I did make my W breakfast since I was cooking anyway, so she got breakfast made for her. She got up off the couch at 10, changed into her workout clothes and went and was on the treadmill for 2 hours. Afterwards, she took a nap for 3 hours, then took a shower, read her book. I grilled out and she helped out and we made dinner together. We ate, then we watched a movie. All in all must have been a very exhausting day. My day, of which Saturday has always been my cleaning day, I got up at 5, worked out until 7. Cleaned up the downstairs bathroom. Made breakfast, cleaned the kitchen, dusted the downstairs, made the bed and then worked on my business for 2 hours. Did a late morning run, then ran a couple of errands and by mid afternoon, was ready to relax from a long week.

I received NMMNG and have read about a third of it. Really relating to it and analyzing it and myself as I go along. I believe they have nailed me to a T. I have a lot of recovery to do, but I am happy that the book is about self-help and job just being a jerk. Changing the "flawed" view that one may have of the world that you thought was right is mind blowing.

So PLEASE. Any help and input on this is appreciated. I am not putting a time limit on my MR. Unfortunately, there are a few already built in. Our current lease is up early 2019, so if we moved ahead towards a D now, there would be ample opportunity to get it finalized so we could all have the "fresh" start my W wants when it is over. If not, it just gets dragged out longer and then what do we do then? Sign another lease? Buy a house? At this point, I don't think so.

As I said from day 1 on this board. I love my W very much. I love my family very much. I would love to keep our family and our MR together, R, and work towards a newer and better MR. I am only one person in this MR. I am not mad, bitter, or even sad at the moment (should think about changing my screenname). I am just at a point where something needs to move so my and my kid's lives can move forward. My W is so selfish and unless she is as devious as Sandi thinks she may be, she has no clue. I am also a little tired of the cake eating. Get out there, get a job and contribute to the household.

Thoughts, suggestions, support and 2x4's are always appreciated and encouraged.

I will end with how I usually end my Friday posts, but I forgot it last week. I was very fortunate to have another week with my family in the same home. So thank you God for that!

Anniversary of BD is next month. I usually advise LBSs to give their WAS at least a year. If you give it another month or two, I don't think anyone would blame you. You gave it more than the old college try. Just be honest with yourself. Are you filing to get movement? Or are you filing because you are done? Don't do it for the former, only do it for the latter.

Steve,
So here is my struggle. With the financial collapse, losing our home, and everything else, this issue and problems have been going on for I'd say at least 2 years, maybe even up to 3 years. There was some talks and threats of D on both sides prior to her final one when she filed in February. Her big BD was probably Sept of last year. It was a few days before our S's bday as I remember at least thinking "at least she didn't do it on his bday". We did the counselors, books, workbooks, etc. Some worked for awhile, some didn't work at all. Although looking back NEITHER of us were in a place where we were individually in the right frame of mind and still reeling from our issues to even remotely focus on someone else. Not the best way to be, but that was the way it was non the less. I was too focused and reeling from losing everything, trying to hold my family together and knowing I had to get out there, swallow my pride, and get to work. She was curled up in a corner and closed off from everything. I think both of us still being together through that says a ton but again I am only one person. So to say I have given it a year would be arguable. Unfortunately our MR issues were very much compounded by having to put them off through the financial issues. I am not justifying at all. Just looking back and trying to see it for what it is. We didn't blame each other, but since there was no one to blame, did end up taking our frustrations out on each other instead of supporting one another.
I am not trying to be a martyr nor is my argument there just to be "right" in the end. My fight is for my family, for our MR. There can be a bunch of winners, but if it ends in D, everyone loses. We will all end up "ok" some happier than others and no one knows how long or who that will be.
I know I have done more than most. I have been told by the few people that know that I should just move on and let her go. That there are more women out there that would love to be treated half as well as my W has been treated. Well, I truly am not interested in doing that yet. If we D, I'm sure I could find someone. I'm attractive, successful, responsible, fun and an overall decent person. I take my MR vows very seriously. When I said those words, I meant them.
In answer to your comment. Am I doing it just to move something forward or because I am done, I see it as a timeline that had "because I'm done" starting at the very far end of the timeline, but the dot is moving closer and closer each day. I have my notes together, my ideas on what I would/would not agree to. I have my L picked out, but not retained as of this moment. I feel guilty at times for hanging on. Is it just me that sees we are better together than apart? Why should I put my kids through the pain they are seeing? How will all of this affect their future relationships? My D and I had a brief conversation and she mentioned that she didn't think she was ever going to get married. I didn't push, but who would blame her with what she has seen for the last couple of years!
So, I just don't know which one it is. I think one day, and it gets closer each day, I will call it and move it forward. So if I know it is going to get there soon, why not do it now and just get it started. My W obviously isn't going to move it forward. Her plan may be there, but it hasn't surfaced, and when/if it does, who knows how that will work. Is it better to position now for my and my kids future? or is it better to just wait it out? The million dollar question I guess...

Decent day yesterday.
Work was productive, but the best happened when I got home. My D and I are now communicating regularly. She is even jovial and approaching me. I am taking it slowly, but she got her school schedule, ran it down for me class by class and even added "I am really gonna need your help with this class dad" on one of them. A VERY happy daddy for that. I know she is a teenager and emotions run all around, but if she truly "hated" me and had no interest in a relationship, I would be shut out. I am looking forward to re-establishing a deeper relationship with both of my children.

W was weird. Feels too comfortable and usually when it gets this way is when she does something interesting. With the kids starting school in a few weeks, I am unsure as to her plans. Maybe this is why I am struggling. It may be that I am just tired of living on the edge of the unknown for so long and being in "fear" of what may be. Early on in this process I focused WAY too much on my W. I now know that she will do what she will do and I cannot mind read or guess. I can only control my actions and my focus needs to be first on my children and then myself. I will not ignore my W nor will I cater to her.

I am still unsure if I should push things forward or not. Is this me just having to do something or am I done. I am taking a couple of days to examine this fully and come to a decision. Most days I feel helpless in the situation. Does my need to move on trump trying to do anything and everything I can to keep my MR together and my family together? Is that too selfish? Or is it selfish to hang on so long? Arguments on both sides come out when I think about it and I can see the good and bad in both. If I could only see the end result. But, I can't and I don't know if anyone knows what the end result will be.

W is still struggling with health issues. Not sleeping, not eating enough (or binging when she can eat on bad stuff). Her weight is seriously down. She now weighs less than she did 20 years ago. I am a little concerned on this, but I do now dwell or mention it as she has requested me not "pry" into her health issues.

We don't talk any longer. Short, brief sentence or questions. No conversations. The mood is not happy nor sad nor angry, just there. The money issue will rear its head in the next couple of days and those are never good. I will handle it as best I can, but if she isn't willing to contribute and get a job, does she really have any leg to stand on? I am tired, lonely, confused, weary but at the same time I am putting myself together again and concentrating on my children. My W hasn't had to worry about anything financial for over 20 years. Not an entire reason to stay in a MR, but I know that I have some serous faults, but I am a spouse only a fool would leave. Only question left is:

Will she be so foolish?

Worked out a little harder this morning. Felt good.

JS, great news with your D! I wish I was there with mine. She had a friend that is moving to TX spend the night Sunday night. We picked her up on the way home from church Sunday night. Dropped her back off on the way to church last night (we have a special event each night this week at church). They swam in the pool. Ate food, I made them dinner last night before taking her home. Drove my D's go-kart/dune buggy on our property. D was still cold, distant, and acted annoyed by me. No gratitude. No "thanks Dad for picking -friend- up" etc. I guess this is the new norm for now. Just so ungrateful and entitled.

Ungrateful and entitled is truly what I am used to so when I see a glimmer from my D I treasure it. I also make sure I am not falling over myself. I enjoy the moment and then we move on. I need to focus more on the little things in life. Life is not about where you are at the end, it is enjoying and experiencing as much as you can on our journey.

I'm sure your D will come around. If you are there for her as you are describing it will be a long road, and you helping guide her along her path, she will remember always that her father was there for her and loves her.

Planning some more things with my kids this week.

Unfortunately, trying not to dwell, but holding my breath on what my W is planning or going to do next. I wish she would just talk to me. I will not broach any R talks with her. I need to put my life on a steadier path with or without her for myself and my kids.

So happy day and happy dance!
Looking for the job relocation thing means I sent out some inquiries.
One that is where I am now turned out to be a great offer and an amazing opportunity.
Just signed a contract and will start next week.
Will be good for me and the kids with flexibility.

Good benefits for me and the kids.
Question...Should I move my W over, or just separate and Cobra her on the old company?
I want to do the right thing by her and myself, just looking for some input. If she isn't going to be a part of my family (yes I know they are her kids too and would never take that away from her) then wouldn't it be time to do that?

The little things we take for granted with our partners seem to now become huge issues moving forward..

Help and advice greatly appreciated.

Congrats on the new job! That sounds awesome! That is a great step forward for getting on with your life.

What would happen if you cut your wife off your insurance? You are still living together, right? My first thought is to say cut her off and let her take care of herself, but I don't remember all the details of your sitch.

JS, is she your W? Is she part of the family right now? I would say move her over. If and when she moves forward with D (and I am thinking that is less and less likely with every day that passe) you can do a life changing event with HR and remove her.

Legally can't cut her off of the health insurance.
With her issues and us still being legally married I just personally couldn't do that either morally, ethically or otherwise.

The new employer has a really good plan that is affordable for myself and the kids, not so much for the entire family, and it would require everyone to change doctor groups. Tough for my W to have to have a dr re-learn her history. We have had the same primary care doctor for 8 years.

She could Cobra for 18 months, and of course I believe "we" would be responsible up and until a D was ever filed and finalized. This would at least show her what her costs would be moving forward for that. I am not trying to stir the pot. Just trying to make the right decision and get some thoughts.

My thoughts this morning are that I am just done with the BS.

The situation makes no sense to me. There are decisions that need to be made and my W's decision and following inaction is making things just needlessly difficult. Mostly all financially related.

Examples of just little things that would be so simple if we were either in a MR or S or D'd but in limbo make no sense:

Mentioned yesterday about the new job, but now I have the changeover in healthcare to handle and whether to add W to the new policy or just cobra her on the old policy. I haven't mentioned it to her yet. I was in too good of a mood last evening and wanted to enjoy the brief moment. I will let her know today or tomorrow on the new job. I am still contemplating the healthcare issue. This one to me seems to be a minefield that I don't know if I have to go through or not so feedback on this one is greatly appreciated!!

Kids need back to school clothes. Nothing really in our joint account, so that honor (and I do mean that) is left up to me, but W is wanting a lot more for them than I can afford. Then, do I make it a family day and take everyone shopping and to lunch? or do I just take the kids and do it? See where all this goes?

Fall activities (sports, band, etc.) for the kids require more money as well.

Not anything major, but some things needs fixed or replaced around the home. I hear the repeated (not constant but probably weekly) jab comments on these. Nothing direct, just the "ughh, this is annoying" thing followed by no direct question or anything.

If one of our kids go to a birthday party (there were several over the summer), there is a card and a gift. When school starts back it will be filled with more of the same followed by Football games, dances, etc.

I seem to be in a no win situation, especially if it involved our children. If I question the cost since I am seriously watching our budget, I am the bad buy. If I fund it with no question, my W thinks I have this huge stash of money and am hiding a bunch from her (She sees everyone of my checks, knows our bills, she COULD do the math, but refuses to actually see the bottom line). So I CAN'T win.

An unfortunate comparison would be to say that my W is more like a dependent now than my partner. She is waiting in line for her allowance and if she doesn't get what she wants, she feels slighted. If someone else in the family gets something, again, she feels like she deserves something since they got something. Childish.

I am not trying to react, overreact or read too much into each individual situation, but when you step back and see the big picture, it just doesn't make sense and everything is just so much more difficult.

I'm actually calm and focused this morning. I'm ok, just frustrated.

D texted me when I was about to head home last evening (had to work just a little late) and asked me to pick her something up for dinner. I called W to make sure she was ok with it and that she hadn't made anything. She was ok with it so I picked all of us something and we all had a quick but cordial and sometimes funny impromptu family dinner.

Watched a couple of programs with my W afterwards and it was pleasant.

Went up to go to bed and W had a brief moment where she didn't say anything but got frustrated with a drawer and then slammed it shut. She didn't say anything. I asked if she was ok and she said "yep, I'm great". I let it go at that point and just moved on.

On my GAL front, I spent about an hour talking with an old neighbor earlier this week, then yesterday had a couple of drinks a friend/business associate. It was nice not talking about my sitch too much and also good to just talk with a couple of guys outside of my home.

Sandi, Steve, AS and all....if you are out there can you give me your thoughts on what you think I should do moving forward? I feel like I am being forced into a corner and have to come out fighting in some way. I also don't want to be blindsided. I feel like an ostrich with my head in the sand denying everything above ground isn't happening. I know it is, but that is just how I feel. I also feel that if there was a shotgun pointed at my body that I couldn't see, I wouldn't even know that I am in danger. Is this normal? Am I just paranoid? Am I just postponing the inevitable? My W has done nothing to move this forward, neither has she done anything to come back to our MR either. The only positives I could say is that we are still in the same home, still sleep in the same bed, and for what I can determine, there is no PA going on. Other than that, it just seems to be a quiet cease fire.

So JS are you asking if you should go ahead and file for D? Your question is unclear to me.

Steve, No. I know that it always my choice and is an option that I have mentioned that I am very much thinking on. I guess to be more specific in this question is that we seem to be "stuck" in this cease fire which feels like being stuck in a desert and you know if you walk either way you will eventually get to water, but instead you just sit in the middle of the desert dehydrating and dying in the land of indecision of which way to go. DB says never pursue. If I approach her in almost any way regarding anything outside of an immediate issue, it will most certainly be seen as pursuit. I don't want to create an R talk either. I know how that will end as well. It just seems that we are slowly but surely separating everything just piece by piece and that may just make it easier for her since the blows are smaller and spread way farther apart so she recovers before the next one comes. By the time she is ready to actually do something (if she is devious and has her plan together and forming or if she doesn't and just heads out into the world blindly) most of the stuff will be worked out. I know it would still be a shock to her with reality, but if she slowly but surely covers a lot of the smaller issues and stretches it out, it seems like it will be easier for her. I am not trying to make things difficult for her at the same time, I don't want to be a doormat and roll out the red carpet for the D as well.

Going through all of those thoughts makes me realize that my question is more of:

What, if anything, should I do differently right now, or am I just stuck in the desert?

So let's look at your options:

1) Do nothing. Continue to concentrate on being a great dad, detach, GAL, 180s, and being the best JS you can be.
2) File for D. This will certainly move things forward.
3) Start pressuring her to make a decision one way or another.

I don't think I am missing anything, but really those are your only three options as far as I can tell.

You've already said that 2 is not the route you want to take, so we can eliminate that one.

1 is where you are now and I can sense your patience wearing thin for that.

So it seems that 3 is the one your wrestling with.

So let's go with 3 for a minute. You really have 3 potential outcomes:

1) Nothing changes.
2) Your W agrees to work on R.
3) You get a D.

Obviously, 2 is the desired outcome. It is the one that you would be hoping for by pressuring her to make a decision. However, it is the least likely of the three. Why? Because you cannot talk, pressure, act, beg, discuss or do anything else to make her make that decision. She has to come to that decision herself. It requires time, patience, no pressure and no pursuit. It requires you focusing on you and your kids and leaving her alone to make her decision. She has to come to that decision on her own. I'd put this at a less than 1% chance of occurring.

So that leaves 1 and 3. Based on your W's history, 1 is most likely. Likely she will try to appease and deflect as much as possible to get back to the current status quo. She will even be willing to say things and agree things to try and make that happen. I'd say there is a 85% chance that this is the route it will go. Because 2 and 3 are work. And it appears that if anything she tries to avoid work.

3 is not likely based on the fact that it would require to do the most work. She'd have to get a job, look for a place to live, etc. As you've said before, she's shown no signs of movement on any of that. Plus this isn't what you want either, so more than likely you'd be content to let things slip back to 1 again as well, since 2 is so unlikely. I'd put the chance of this occurring at about 14.5%.

So really the question becomes, do you want to put energy in to the first #3 knowing it is likely to not result in anything different? In fact, you have a better chance of change, potentially the wrong kind, with #2 in the first list. But actually that is also the one that is second most likely to result in R behind only #1.

My advice is to double-down on #1. Really recommit to detaching and GAL. Being the best JS and dad you can be.

You brought up finances. Here is the problem. D exasperates financial difficulty, not makes it better. All of the things you listed will still be the case in D. Yes she won't be on your insurance anymore, but she will get alimony. If she gets any custody at all she will get child support. Financially #1 in the first list is your best option!

What you are really struggling with is the limbo "illusion of action" problem that we all struggled with. You feel stuck and need to do something. The problem is that anything you do will likely lead you further away from where you want to be than you are now.

The analogy you gave needs to be tweaked. You are in a desert and you have found a small puddle. One direction leads to a fresh water lake, the other just leads to miles and miles of of more desert. You could take a chance and head off into the direction you THINK the lake is in and chance being stranded completely without water. Or you can wait at your puddle, surviving until you have a clearer idea on which direction is best. I'd say choose the puddle until you are sure of the lake.

Steve,

Thank you for pointing out to me exactly what I am struggling with. I believe it is exactly the illusion of action problem. I do feel stuck and I do feel the need to do something. Luckily, I have this board to sound off on and get some sound advice. I haven't done anything (this time) to push me back further so at least there is that!

Knowing that my mind is telling me I have to do something and understanding that the right thing is to stay the course knowing it is counter intuitive to the way I feel is still difficult. And yes. I am struggling. I am detaching and I will admit that it hurts each time I do a little more. I feel myself getting stronger along the way and I know it will make me a better person however my MR works out.

The finance part is weird. There will be no alimony (prenup) there will be child support, but if I analyze and do the math I believe in the end it will be a financial benefit to D. No 2nd car, no health insurance, copays, rx's treatments and expense for her, etc. etc. Never any guarantees how it would end up, but just a cursory overview shows me this. I am basing child support on the state calculation without her making an income. If need be, there could be arguments that she choose not to work instead of being unable to work. The government has denied her disability so they believe she can work. If I add that in, it is just less money in child support. I will be very fair when it comes to any settlement if that time comes within reason. I do believe that she is dragging this out because she is still unsure how to move her agenda forward and she now has a decent roof over her head, food, car, etc. Does she realize how difficult it will be out there in the real world? I do not know. She seems oblivious right now on everything. With regard to finances, all I can say is that she hasn't balanced a checkbook in 20 years and hasn't paid a bill outside of her personal stuff for the same amount of time. Add in rent, utilities, cell phone, health insurance, groceries, car insurance, car payment, gas, kids lunches, women stuff (beauty products, etc.) and other incidentals it is going to be very difficult for her to do it by herself. Not that she would be unable to, but again, just doing the math.

Thanks again. I know there is only a 50/50 shot on saving our MR anyway. I know my wife (or knew her) and know this will take a great amount of time for her to come around. I appreciate your help and will take to heart doubling down on#1.

JS - When I was in throws of my sitch I made a comment to one of the vets on the board that it didn't feel like I was doing anything to save my MR. I asked them if that is how it should feel and they told me "yes". I was doing my thing, going to the gym, spending time with my girls, shopping, coaching, going to church, hanging out with friends, etc. but I never brought up or discussed anything with my XW unless it was kid related.

If it feels like you are doing nothing to save your MR you are probably on the right track.

Thanks Joseph!
And yes, it feels like I am doing nothing to save my MR.
It feels that I am just waiting for my W to put her plan in motion (me just mind reading and projecting I know).
I am keeping busy, doing ok, need to GAL more and detach more. My 180's are doing well. I look good and feel better physically (and other than the situation mentally as well) than I have in a long time.
I am over feeling sorry for myself. A lot of the times anymore it is just true loneliness and missing my W and the things we used to do together. Just the conversations and companionship. Of course I miss the intimacy part as well

W is upset at me today.
She asked what we are going to do about school shopping last evening.
I said "I was going to take them out this weekend, you are more than welcome to come if you would like and we could all do it together".
W looked very hurt. She said "but this is something I have always done with the kids".
I said "you are more than welcome to do that if you wish".
She sensed what I was saying, that I wasn't going to give her money to go do this with the kids without me. Why should she get the joy of taking them out and spending money on them to make all of them feel good? I am not trying to be mean, but I feel that if I earn the money that is going to be used, and she isn't going to be a part of my life, that this is something that I should do with my children. They will find out soon enough how hard things are going to be. AND, the trust level between my W and I (both ways) is very challenged considering the situation and me giving her a bunch of money just wouldn't be advisable or I think even smart at this point.

She tried to expand the discussion to include more issues, I shut that down and asked her which discussion we are having as I thought this was just about the school clothes? She conceded. Wrapped up the convo quickly. 10 minutes later she threw a little hissy fit, grabbed her stuff and stated "I'm going to read upstairs in bed, alone".. I said ok,

Did I handle that one correctly everyone?

Sounds like you handled it very well to me. Good job.

I think so. I like that you didn't give on your boundary about not just giving her money to run off and shop. And that you shut the convo down before it grew legs.

I am torn on the school shopping issue. On one hand I think sometimes a small bone like this can go a long way towards softening her up. But at the same time your instincts appear to be right on this one too. I think the best course of action would be for her to join in on the trip, it would be the best of both worlds. But you have zero control over that. But this is also sending her a powerful message about how things are going to be moving forward with a D. And sometimes that dose of reality can be a powerful wakeup call.

I'd like to see some of the other vets weigh in on this one,.

JS - I think you handled it well. I like how you took control of the situation, offered for her to come with so you didn't deny her the opportunity to partake so that is on her. She can join in on the fun if she wants.

This is just stupid.

Unfortunately had to go by and pick something up at home.
It was in my private stuff and discovered that my W had gone through them and taken a few items out of there.
A true violation of privacy and again like her going through my phone very outside of her character.

Shocked to say the least! She was there, and I had to ask. She said that she did (lied once and then admitted it).
We jabbed a few back and forth.

She asked if I was dating or seeing anyone. I told her no. Asked her if she was and she said she has been asked out a ton (I believe this as she was asked out a lot even when we were happily married with her rings on) but isn't seeing anyone "yet".

I ended the conversation, not soon enough, but ended it anyway since I did just come to pick up the item and had to go back to a meeting.

She was upset that I left and sent a text that she was upset that I just "dismissed" her. I texted back that I told her prior that I was just stopping and leaving. That I had to go to get back to work, and that I dislike that our conversations seem to always result in a bad discussion. I expressed that I wish there was some common ground we could use to have better communication. I also expressed that the situation is not easy for any of us.

She was cold, mean, and cruel during the conversation. I got out of there quick. I didn't lose it until I was gone.
What do I do?
Is this her just retaliating on the shopping thing?
I know her going through my stuff was months ago, so not much to worry on there, just the idea that it happened stinks.

Very confused. Is this the "it gets harder before it has a chance to get better stuff?"

I hate this. I hurt way too much. I am also in control better though. It was like talking to a different person almost.

Input is greatly needed...

Yeah, she's going to keep pushing your buttons and trying to get you to exhibit more of the same behavior that she can then use to justify wanting to D. You were probably too wordy with the text exchange. She is clearly concerned on some level that you could be seeing someone/looking. Her use of the word "yet" in talking about her not seeing anyone was just to try and poke you some more and draw anger/jealousy out of you.

If you can continue like you have for the most part (based on the majority of your recent posts) to stay cool, confident and calm when she's spewing/testing, it should start to sink in to her that she's not going to get the reaction and fight that she was expecting/looking for. She wants a fight because it makes her feel better about wanting to end things and she may possibly be experiencing conflict or doubt on some level about her desire to do so. Don't give her the fight. Always give her the best you. Always walk away when you want to speak out of anger/frustration/hurt.

I know she was just baiting me.
Doing all of the things I have learned through here.
In the span of 20 minutes she continues to rewrite our marital history, distort the truth, plays down everything she has done, and maximizes the most miniscule things that I do or have done.

Again, I own my part in this problem. But really.

I was thankful I had to leave. I did my best to be polite, told her 3 times I had to go. Finally I did have to go and told her that I had to end the convo and leave. That's when she texted telling me I dismissed her. What is getting to me is what I mentioned above. She is so cold, callous and non caring. She is still wanting her cake and eat it to, i.e. I pay all the bills and she sits around all day (although she accused me of making the home a prison since she has no money to go and do anything) Again, anything I do is wrong. She accused me of keeping the pantry and refrigerator too full. WOW!

I wish there was just some way for her to soften and reflect. I don't know if she is, and have zero indication as to what her intentions are other than her saying she is done and ready to move on, then doing absolutely nothing to make that happen. I am excited and nervous as well that I am leaving on a work trip next week. Who knows if it will be good or bad.

Right now, I am just working on my relationship with my children and working on myself.

I have mentioned before that my wife is very stubborn. Her getting to the point to make the choice was, I'm sure, a very difficult one. Seeing the opportunity for her to open the door to reexamine is another.

I may have put too many words in the text, but it was how I felt. I didn't see it as pursuing, just that we needed to find a way to communicate through this better.

Not a happy Friday, but I am looking forward to the weekend and the trip next week.

Getting ready for my business trip today for the week.

Weekend went well. Kids are getting ready for back to school and we did spend some time together and it was great!

Mood was lighter than usual around the home. W still struggling health wise (bunch of naps, pain, issues, etc.), but I kept busy doing my things and of course getting ready for this trip.

Took the kids back to school clothes shopping yesterday. W tagged along. It was a really good day. Everyone was casual, relaxed and enjoyed themselves. There was zero tension at all. W even did something kind of our of the ordinary. Bought her a bottle of water at one store as she was thirsty. She took a drink and offered it to me for a drink as well. I can't remember the last time we shared a drink. Weird, but I felt good as it just felt normal and right.

Did our thing the rest of the day and we had a casual evening, watched a show or two. She was a little more chatty and vocal with her thoughts and comments. Not reading anything into this at all, but did enjoy it.

Looking forward to the break, concentrating on work and the new challenges ahead. Also looking forward to the time apart and hoping that we both have a chance to reflect and think for the week. I will be busy and keep myself busy. I probably won't be on here much, maybe late in the evenings or so, but I don't know if I will post too much.

Kids and I are getting closer everyday and I love this. Focusing on them more and more and they are responding very positively.

This trip is offering a nice break for all of us. I need to not think about this too much, and will keep in touch with my kids and give my W her space as much as I can. There will be social events on the trip, but it is all work and this will keep my mind off everything and hopefully I can get some rest!

Nothing else really. I could let me mind wander and worry what she is going to do, but I am really not. Here or not, she would do what she is going to do anyway at this moment. I can only control myself and the more I can detach and give her the opportunity to see what life is like without me for a few days will be nice.

I enter each week with hope. I got the pleasure of having my family in the same home for another week. I would change a lot, but at present, that is all I can hope for. Working on everything else and this new challenge will help with the 180's, db'ing and GAL's so YEA! This is just another step in the path to a new me and there is no doubt as to why I am here, which is to keep my family together and hopefully my W and I find a path to someday begin working on a brand new, better, amazing and fulfilling MR.

Keep DBing. Don't be surprised if she initiates episodes of testing behavior again. Just be steady in your reactions. Consistently show her you're a better you. Keep doing you and focus on the kids. Maybe she's coming around a little, maybe she isn't, but patience and consistency on your part will do nothing but good.

Just journaling mostly.
Wrapping up my trip. I was busy the whole time, but now have a little free time until my flight first thing in the morning. I'm doing ok, but just thinking, I haven't spoken or communicated with my W since Monday. I have spoken/emailed/texted my kids and they are good. I miss all of them a lot. Trip was great. Met a lot of new people so that was good. Socially interacted in the evening as well and that was nice to be out for a bit. I even got hit on last evening by a woman half my age. Of course I didn't pursue or allow that at all, in fact I didn't even realize it until about 10 minutes into the conversation. A little boost to my ego as well as she was an attractive woman. Laughed it off and thought about my W stating that she has been asked out a lot. I know that if we do D that she would have zero issues in finding someone to take her out. With her other issues I have doubts about keeping anything long term for her though.

Other than that, just a little lonely. I still love my W. I will never give up. I hope that she had a chance to think and reflect a little while I was gone. Hopefully she will be happy to see me. Busy weekend with the kids lined up as well so looking forward to that. I haven't done much thinking since I've been so busy and that has been great!

No idea what awaits me when I return. I will just go in and go from there.

Feel very anxious and nervous today.
Headed home. Haven't had any communication with my W for 4 days.
I want to go home take her in my arms and just hold her.
I know I can't but that is how I feel. I don't know if I am dreading going back to face what is happening more or just nervous as to the reception I will receive.
Regardless, I will take a deep breath prior to entering . I am genuinely happy to see everyone as I have missed them.
How do I act towards her?
The break was nice, but I have this pressing need again to do something. That feeling of inaction. Patience is the key, but is this time just letting her get herself in a better position to go? I can't mind read, but the waiting is sometimes unbearable. Good part of the week was that I was able to focus. Made some great connections. And realized that I am a likeable, friendly person with a lot to contribute. My self confidence got a big boost and I needed that!

Still. I need advice on what I do now.

I feel that it has gotten worse since I started DBing 5 months ago. Some small signs, but 1 step forward then 4 steps back.

I will not give up, but I am just at a stand still.

JS,

I have followed your situation and haven't commented much. Have you read the Last Resort Technique? This is what you should be implementing right now. If you have patience and can exude strength through this until she is out, I can almost guarantee you will get a shot at reconciliation.

The harder you try to hold on the longer it is going to take. Your W is going to get a slap in the face with reality when you are gone.

Can you drop the rope?

Just don't be surprised that when she comes crawling back you have completely moved on.

Quote

I feel that it has gotten worse since I started DBing 5 months ago. Some small signs, but 1 step forward then 4 steps back.

So exactly which part of DBing do you attribute to things getting worse?

Originally Posted by LH19

Just curious b/c I am no great DB'er, should he really be doing the LRT? She dropped the divorce, so maybe I think he shouldn't.

JS, do you think things have gotten worse b/c of DB'ing? Or could it be unrelated? Is DB'ing helping you personally? Or is your focus of DB'ing all about getting her back?

Thanks for the input and questions everyone. I will try to address them all.
I may have worded it incorrectly, but I do not attribute to db'ing being ANY reason whatsoever about things getting worse other than being told that as you do this it will definitely get worse until it has a chance to get better. She will react, overreact, not react and/or do many many things that are unable to be explained or justified, or she will just do something that is in line with the decision she has made.
First, the weekend was actually really good. We connected ok and kind of just picked up where we left off,but the communication, for some reason, was a little more open and longer from her and some jovial responses and the like. NOTHING romantic or anything like that, but it was more communication about things other than the kids.
As far as the db'ing and me feeling like I am getting nowhere. I believe it goes back to the ongoing issue that I have in really detaching and not focusing DB on just getting her back. I know the odds are at best 50/50. I need to drop the rope and I do feel that last week helped. And I believe the weekend helped as well. Last evening she cooked a nice dinner. The kids ate a little earlier as they had a bunch to do, so it actually just ended up with my W and I having dinner. And it was pleasant.

My concerns: How do I know if she is truly gone and just playing me as long as she can to get into a better position or have her plans come together? I find it difficult to almost not read too much into everything. Just my nature, but I've always been the "tackle the issue, make a decision and move forward" guy. This is way different and along with the 180's for the relationship, this is majorly counterintuitive on my regular thought process.

Weird part is, I can see us working it out. I also see her just "playing along" until her exit door opens and she is gone saying "I told you I was gone, I don't know why you thought it would be different". Concerned that I am putting too much pressure on myself to hold my family and MR together and if it doesn't happen that it will crush me once again. I am doing all I can to ensure that no matter what happens, that I am ok. Even thought I wouldn't like the end result if we D (hence the reason I am here), I know that I will survive, become happy again and enjoy life. I just still believe that there is hope and I have faith that someday she will see that I am a spouse only a fool would leave and will refocus on rebuilding our MR into an amazingly better relationship.

I am working each day to drop the rope more. I'm still working out and continuing all of my 180's. Also working on my GAL more and more as well.

So to recap, I would love to know if I should be doing the LRT for sure! She filed, withdrew, but has consistently said over the last 6 months that D is going to happen and it is too late for our MR. I know not to believe anything she says, but still, it is there.

I don't blame DB'ing for anything getting worse. Just observing that we have become more distant (outside of the weekend) there is no intimacy whatsover (and I'm of course not referring to sex with isn't even close). She did have a few complaints about one of the kids and we chatted for several minutes. I validated her viewpoints and told her I would support whichever decision she made with regard to the situation. She seemed to drag on the conversation wanting to vent. Again, I truly listened and validated and also reiterated her points back to her and her choices.

I feel pressure on me everyday. New job is digging in so YEA! But now I have a changeover in healthcare and I don't know how to handle that. Do I just treat her as my W and we are good? Or do I let her Cobra the old plan so she can separate now? Our lease for the home is up in 6 months. I need to start making a plan. If we are in the middle of a D then, it will be much more difficult for all of us. If we both go sign a new lease together and still in limbo, there is that to deal with as well (same thing that happened here).

Working more on the financial recovery, Kids, GAL, 180's and I need to find a knife to cut this rope!!!

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My concerns: How do I know if she is truly gone and just playing me as long as she can to get into a better position or have her plans come together? I find it difficult to almost not read too much into everything.

Well, IDK that you can. Some women are very clever in their manipulations, and some are extremely good actresses. IMHO, a H can be fooled b/c he wants to believe that things are slowly getting better. Maybe the W throws just enough crumbs to keep him hanging on.

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I find it difficult to almost not read too much into everything. Just my nature, but I've always been the "tackle the issue, make a decision and move forward" guy. This is way different and along with the 180's for the relationship, this is majorly counterintuitive on my regular thought process.

As I once said, you are your own worst enemy. I think you try to keep the peace and appease her the best you can. Therefore, you analyze everything she says & does, and you act according to whatever you read into it. It seems to me that we do this when relationships are not where they should be. If the other person is not open, truthful, kind or loving...�.then we try to figure them out, and therefore, know how to interact with them.

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So to recap, I would love to know if I should be doing the LRT for sure! She filed, withdrew, but has consistently said over the last 6 months that D is going to happen and it is too late for our MR. I know not to believe anything she says, but still, it is there.

Maybe I need a memory jog, but did she say she withdrew it in order to save the M? Did she say she did not want to divorce you? Did she say anything about reconciliation? Or, did she just withdraw it, due to other reasons? Has there been any difference in her personal relationship with you? Have you sensed any tension gone from her?

I feel that you are going to deal with it the way you see fit, rather than the suggestions you receive on the board. I'm not saying this in a sarcastic tone. Most of these subjects have been previously discussed, so I believe at this point you are going to fall in with however it goes with her. You have an ill W, and you are dedicated to taking care of her. Your life has centered around her for so long, you can't even get away long enough to GAL on a regular basis. I admire you in many ways, but I am concerned that you have lost part of the man you once were before she became ill. As for as the LRT, I think you feel that being withdrawn and quite is you applying the LRT. ((hugs)).

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I am working each day to drop the rope more.

Just curious, how do you see "dropping the rope"?

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But now I have a changeover in healthcare and I don't know how to handle that.

IMHO, you need to look at this from the point of health coverage benefits and out-of-pocket money. Don't look at it from the point of where your M stands.

Sandi..Thanks for weighing in.

First, I am trying NOT to be my own worst enemy. I don't want to make a mistake and despite your belief, I do take the feedback from this board very seriously and it has affected past decisions (and they were correct as well) Also, very much trying to "let it play out" and practice patience. I think AnotherStander had told me that inaction was the right action for the time being. It just feels, at times, that I am feeding to her cake eating and just allowing her to ride the wave until she decides what she wants to do. Feels more like a doormat than anything as the entire family has their lives on hold waiting on her decision.

With that said, What does it mean for me to drop the rope? I believe that it means exactly what was explained to me a few times (I'm sure) on this board. I have to get to the point that I don't care if she comes back or not. I find this WAY easier said than done. This leads to your other point Sandi that part of my current life is just being her caregiver. Through everything else that has happened I have lost my identity. It is slowly coming back, and it is coming back more and more each day. This is where it gets difficult. Example, Sunday my W slept later than usual. Got up ate breakfast then went back to sleep at noon and didn't get up until 6pm. She ate dinner, then went to bed around 10pm and slept until she had to get up the next morning. So an unscheduled, total sleep day due to health issues. I know this is not my problem any longer, but I am human and so is she and there is that pesky "been together forever" and "we have kids together" stuff that goes along with it. I have a real issue inside my soul getting to that true not caring part of this.

W withdrew the petition for divorce for personal reasons. She did not want to work on our MR. Has(d) every intention at that time and as of this moment to eventually file for D. Says she just think it has run its course, she sees no future and is done. Regardless of the consequences.

Regarding the healthcare. it is an entirely totally different way that i would look at it whether my W was on the policy or not. If it would just be the kids and I, where we don't use it as much, we could open up to other options. With W involved, it is way costlier but the choice is easier (compare costs and whether she can use same Dr's and choose).

There is no tension lately as we haven't really had any discussions outside of the kids and house stuff. No R or finance questions or conversations at all. She is slightly more talkative and I can tell that some days she is more relaxed and others she is very intent on closing herself off to me.

Am I tired of this, yes.

I don't want to give up, I am just tired of feeling like a doormat, being taken advantage of, and I need to figure out how to focus more on everything else and again drop the rope to my W and our old MR.

When I think of dropping the rope, my mind goes back to that old game of "tug of war" where two teams are pulling on a rope. The object is for one team to pull the other team over the center line. I've seen the "line" as being a mud puddle..... or other various things. They will pull with all their strength for what seems to be hours. I can't remember if this goes against any rules of tug of war, but it is funny to watch........when one team just drops the rope and their opponents go crashing over the line. The shock value makes it all worth while.

So in my mind, I see the LBH using actions that show he has emotionally dropped the rope he has clinged to for so long. That rope that is tied around his W. You know the one I mean. The same rope that will eventually hang you, if you can't drop it. JS, your problem is trying to wait around until you don't care about her. That doesn't work well, b/c I doubt you will ever get to the place you don't "care". I think you refer to being human quite often. To me, that means you care. So, dropping the rope is not an issue of your feelings. It is about action. You have to leave your emotions out of it.......if you do it successfully.

When the H suddenly stops showing interest in his W's actions (or the lack thereof), and just goes on as if she was not around......I promise it gets her undivided attention. He makes plans for himself without considering her. He GAL like there's no tomorrow, takes his kids for fun weekends, spends time with his guy friends, and anything else he wants to do. He just drops that rope that was tied to the W, where he is constantly considering her feelings and actions. He takes his focus completely away from her and places it on his kids and himself.

Here's the thing. When she notices that he is not sitting around waiting on her, her minds starts wondering about him. What has changed? Has he found someone else? What is he doing when he's not home? Why is wearing a different cologne? Why does he seem happy? Why doesn't he ask me how I feel or what I want? Now, that's just the natural thinking of most women, b/c we are curious. I'm not suggesting you try to make her think you are involved with someone else. When a woman (who is in this frame of mind) sees herself as being the one who is leaving her H....... I don't think she really sees herself as losing him. She sees him as losing her. Do you follow what I am saying? When she suddenly sees her H acting differently, and sees him moving on without her in his everyday life.......it hits her that she is the one losing him. Remember her asking if you were seeing anyone? If she wasn't curious, she wouldn't have asked. However, her attraction needs to be jump-started, and you have the power to do it. If you feel like a doormat, it's b/c you are acting like one. I simply don't understand why some LBH's think that DBing is acting the role of doormat. Take back your power. It will have the affect on her the same as those who were in the tug of war and fell over the line when the rope was dropped. The everyday stuff is just as effective than something like not adding her to your health insurance. I guess I find it odd that you can take action about the health insurance without seeming worried about her reaction, but you can't find it in yourself to do the lesser things that have been suggested.

You say you are "working on GAL". What does that mean? What's to work on? Just get out of the house and do some something you enjoy for a couple of hours.

At the end of the day, you have to do what works. If you see it works, continue doing it. If it doesn't work, then try something else. Patience is needed, I agree. However, I don't think it has one thing to do with acting like a doormat. I think your particular problem is that you feel like a doormat b/c she is eating cake. So, stop serving it. She's going to have some cake as long as she lives under your roof, but you don't have to wait hand & foot to serve it.

Thanks Sandi and I appreciate the time and effort you put into each and everyone of your posts.

I have made GAL difficult as I have been holding on too tight. I am not interested in dating or going to bars, etc. But I will diligently from this moment forward keep busy as much as possible. I will get the kids out on the weekends. I will make sure I am there for my kids always, but will also make time for myself outside of the home to be sure I am working on me. I also will not cater to my W any longer. I will not be cold or mean but will treat her as the guest that she is in my home. I will listen and validate when/if she talks. I will notice any changes but will not hang on her every word, sentence or action as some indication of how she is leaning. This will be a long process and it has only just begun.

I've already done the new clothes, cologne thing. I lost 30+lbs and about 4 inches on the waist so nothing fit anymore. That did cause her to look and that is also when she accused me of seeing someone. I'm still working out everyday, sometimes twice and am in decent shape. I weigh less now than when we got married so that is great for my health. I eat better. Rarely drink any longer and sleep fairly decently now. I have more energy than I used to and I need to focus that energy on my kids, myself and my career instead of my W.

So yes. I think db'ing is working and I do believe that reading through all of my past posts and comments from you and others that I am the one prolonging this agony. My choices to make myself feel better and perhaps more connected still with my W by doing things for her and spending time with her are my own choices and therefore my fault.

My W is very challenged in many ways. I don't know if she will ever have the opportunity to get out of her fog. Her health issues are increasing presently and she is in deep denial about this. There have been 3 days in the last week that she has slept for almost 18-19 hours per day. Her skin is paler, glossy and more translucent than it used to be. I did ask her this morning if I should have some concern and she just shrugged it off and said it would go away and be ok eventually. So if she is not worried about her own health, I'm certain that either myself or our MR are not even on her radar at all. She has this ability (I wish I had it now) of being able to just shut out the world and nothing will penetrate her wall. She can go for months like that.

I am still having some concerns about the big conversations that have to happen that might turn into an R or even a D conversation. Health insurance is one. Has to be done in the next few days. Where we are going to live is another. Lease is up early 2019 and it will be here before you know it. How do I broach that subject:
Hypothetical
Me: "What are our options when the lease is up?"

W: "I have no idea on what I am doing at this moment."

Me: "Well, we need to have some idea on what we are doing just for the kids."

W: could go either "I don't know let me think about it." or "What are our options?" to "There is no "we" we are done."

No sky is falling stuff, if we owned the home it wouldn't be an issue, but since we presently don't, plans need to be in place and can't wait until the last minute.

I have struggled these past few weeks on whether this was even possible or not. I love my W. I love my family. I know I will be good with my kids eventually. I just hate that they are in the middle and my W just sits there day after day not doing anything about anything.

Again, thank you Sandi for your input. I do value every response on here. I know what I have to do and as you have said Actions speak louder than words. I will update soon on how the updated direction is going.

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W: could go either "I don't know let me think about it." or "What are our options?" to "There is no "we" we are done."

I feel for you brother. That is so difficult. Went through that, all be it in much shorter time span. And it is frustrating. She could never, in the thick of our sitch, give me any specifics. I can understand that after so long that kind of thing still happening is frustrating. As always JS, it is well within your rights and your power to say "forget this" file and move on. No one would fault you. Just make sure it is really what you want.

Very Frustrating Steve.

D is definitely not what I want. I do see it as a possibility. Contemplated seriously about the good/bad columns of each.

Moving toward R:
Long timeline
Learning to trust again
Keeping the family together
Learning to love each other again

Not a total list and some fall in both the good and bad colums

Moving toward D:
Shorter timeline
Family is broken

My final thought on this post is this:
What a waste of time! Why has society put us to this point where we think just because it is a little harder than usual that we should just dispose and replace?

Wrote a really long post. Looked and reread it and then deleted it.
Why? Because I saw re-reading it that it was all about my W.
This part of the journey is about me (and of course my kids).
About how I rebuild who I am.
I will still post updates on what happens, but I am taking the focus away from the day to day issues.
We don't talk much so brevity is very easy in our conversations. I have great talks with my kids and am going to capitalize on the time with them. School is back and with a vengeance and since they are advancing in grades, Dad becomes more of a helper with their subjects so I love that!!!
I just need to get my kids on a more stable foundation so they can thrive better!

Well done JS!!

tough time in my head today.
Great evening at home. D had an event so S & I went. W was asleep and didn't go.
It was a great time for us. Just really anxious today and I don't know why.
I did good on detaching and the event helped by soaking up some time (and it was great to be with the kids)
Outside of a concern for my W's health, spent the afternoon and early evening busy around the house and not thinking about the MR.

These seem to be my hardest days. My heart sometimes just aches. I'm lonely. I miss my W. I miss just being happy. I miss doing things as a family and having fun. I do miss family fun times.

There are few people that I speak to about my sitch, and even those few i don't tell them every sordid detail. I mainly have those few friends/ family and this board so thank you for letting me get these feelings out just for a few moments until they pass.

Wow. I haven't been emotional like this in a while.

i'm just gonna sit here for a few minutes, try to relax and refocus.

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I have made GAL difficult as I have been holding on too tight. I am not interested in dating or going to bars, etc.

Whenever I give examples of GAL, I don't believe I have ever suggested anyone date or go to bars. If you don't know what to do, just go riding around. Treat yourself to something you enjoy eating. Look around at a bookstore, go to a museum, go rock climbing......whatever suits you. Just get out of house.

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I will not be cold or mean but will treat her as the guest that she is in my home.

Hold up! She is not a guest in your home! If you treat her like a guest, she'll act as one. You'll never feel that you should go out without her. You would see that as being rude. When we have guest, we try to entertain them, make them feel comfortable, pay a lot of attention to them, serve them, put their desires first, etc. I suggest you think of her as a woman who is there for rent/board. It's a business arrangement. It puts a much different light on things from how you would treat a guest in your home.

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So if she is not worried about her own health, I'm certain that either myself or our MR are not even on her radar at all. She has this ability (I wish I had it now) of being able to just shut out the world and nothing will penetrate her wall. She can go for months like that.

FWIW, I understand this type of situation much better than you may know. This may sound cold, and I don't mean it that way when I say that there are times you just need to walk away and let her butt with her own head. You must learn to turn lose of what you cannot control. This is her disease and she has to deal with it on her terms. You have to save yourself and your children, before you can take care of anyone else. If everyone stops catering to her and setting their daily activities by how she feels......and if they will start having a real life whether or not she's involved.....I think she'll wake up much faster. She has been able to go like this for months at a time, b/c you always picked up the slack. When she sleeps for days at a time, she knows good ole JS will take care of everything. In other words, she's "allowed" to shut out and shut down and tune out the world whenever she wants. Some people don't have that privilege. Do I think you've enabled her? Yes, b/c I know how easy it is when we have a loved one who is dealing with similar situations. I know how frustrating it can be when they won't do what they should, or try to help themselves, or are in denial or rebelling against their condition. I'm talking about adults, of course. I had to learn how to leave it with them at times, and take care of myself......lest we both go down.

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Again, thank you Sandi for your input.

You are most welcome. I feel I have done a lot of repeating, so if you should see me slacking off at times, it's b/c I haven't anything new to say. I've spent less time on the board since this new updated version has come, b/c I have to use my desk computer, for one, and also I think I am getting just a slight burnout. However, I'm not done.

Hi Ms Sandi,

I for one, am glad you are not done here. So many people look to your advice and posts around here.

JS, keep the faith. Do what you need to do to be the best you. You getting emotional is OK, just don't let it ruin your hour or day. Find your way back.

Good Morning!
By the time I got home yesterday I was composed and good.
It was rough for a little while though, I'm not going to lie!

Sandi, I hope you don't go anywhere. Please know that I value your input greatly and also appreciate your patience with my need to hear things several times before actually hearing them. I think this is more due to my heart and mind telling me I have to do something and the battle going on to make sure I don't. So again, thank you so much.

The GAL part I am struggling with now because I don't want to be a part from my kids too much. I know when they get home from school they are doing their homework and all of their stuff, even when I get home I am doing my stuff, but I just know that I need to concentrate on them a lot. Not overprotective, not over emphatic either, but just physically being in the same area as them. Tough to get out during the week. Now the weekends are a different story. I do a couple of hikes on the weekends, and depending on sports/school things I try to get the kids out for something as well. This weekend looks good and we are definitely headed out Sunday.

I worded the guest part a little wrong. I treat her like the cashier at the store. I do slip up and inquire about things from time to time (not R or MR, just life) but have cut that way back as well. I know I have catered to her for years. Not intentionally, but we just ended up this way. I am sure that in some way she resents me for this now. I have thought about it, and know that I don't resent her for her health issues that are fully out of her control!

Assignment for the weekend:
Enjoy life.
Get some work done around the house.
Have fun with the kids.
Do a couple of hikes.
Detach

And OV thanks for the comments as well. Keeping the faith. Glad this board is here and needed it just to get out the thoughts and feelings yesterday.

Remember to stay busy at the house too. If you stay busy doing your own things then you will be less likely to "I do slip up and inquire about things from time to time (not R or MR, just life) but have cut that way back as well.".

The posters I see struggle the most are the ones that sit and stew in their own juices, over-analyze ever interaction, and just over think about their sitch and their WAS.

Great point Steve,

I was out in the garage working on stuff late last night. I've done this a few times. I have some fun projects at the house and JS, you should too. When you're mind is working to create a solution you will be happier and help you make new priorities. It will help you detach.

Good weekend with the kids. Both together and individually we kept fairly busy and had some fun.
W made dinner last night and we ate together. She feels like she is withdrawing more and more, then at times she reaches out to chat. Mostly about the kids, but not just a generic conversation, more of an indepth talk about them. Just weird communicating with her. She did complain about each child over the weekend. I listened, validated and then went on.

Question of the day:

Our anniversary is about a week away. What do I do?

I know no gifts or outrageous stuff. Kind of feels weird to not do anything and it seems kind of strange to do something as well. I just don't know what the proper response is for this. We are still married.

Responses are greatly appreciated. And this is not a reason to pursue or give her pressure. THIS is what I'm trying to avoid without messing up along the way.

How about the first time you see her that day just throw a casual "Happy Anniversary".

What do you think she is going to do for you on your anniversary?

I would almost guarantee nothing.
Just like Father's Day.

So just acknowledge it with a "Happy Annivesary" and move on. The problem is that anything else above that will be pressure and pursuit. So don't do it.

Agreed.
Sad that it has to be that way.

Steve,
I was reading in someone else's sitch you had replied they needed to read the "sticky validation" thread so when their spouse brings up the MR, they are ready to listen better. I searched and couldn't find it anywhere. Could you direct me to where it is or post a link if possible?

I know the convo is coming soon from her so I just want to be ready.

Thanks..

It is currently the third sticky from the top, but here it is:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Thanks Steve.
I thought since you had said sticky validation there was another one talking about more serious topics or something. I will re-read this one again and put it to use.

just need a little feedback from you all.

I'm struggling with the time this is taking, this is not a new thing. I realize this is a long term marathon and I have just started (almost 6 months now). We don't tear each other apart every other day any more, we have gotten into kind of a stalemate kind of situation where we don't really talk, we are tolerant of each other, we don't lash out at one another, but we aren't talking either. I realize this is an improvement and I am happy to be here with my family still together in the same home.

My problem comes with the day to day decisions and issues that happen that have to be made. Most deal with money. W refuses to work. There are the medical issues here as well. BUT, when everything that happens falls upon my shoulders, it just doesn't seem fair. Kids need clothes. Dad? S wants to go to a party and needs gift for friend. Dad? S wants a new cell phone. Dad? W complains about money a lot and it is an underlying thing since I stopped putting my paycheck in the joint account. Am I using this to be controlling? Absolutely not. Is it perceived by my W that I am trying to control her. Absolutely. I make sure all of the bills are paid, food is in the fridge, gas is in the car, etc. I always put a little in our joint account (which I have rarely used over the years), but it seems to be building more and more resentment on both sides. My W obviously since she refuses to make her own living and is upset that I will not fund any part of her life. Granted, this is her choice and she should not be rewarded for this. I am having resentment on this since everyone thinks that I am just an ATM! I know its part of being a parent and I take pride in being able to provide for my family, but when you ask a question and W responds "I don't have any money, you have to ask your Dad" It puts me in an awkard position especially if I have to say no. I have gladly (she hasn't asked in awhile) shown all of my paychecks and bills to my W. She, of course, doesn't care a bit about that. "He'll take care of it" is what she thinks since it has always been true. She was upset last week since she went to the store and there wasn't enough in there for her to get what she wanted. She called and said "I had to put some back just to get out of the store. I was so embarrassed". I almost said, "welcome to your new world", but I held my tongue. Glad I did, but I know she will experience much more of that if we D.

My problem is that i feel really bad inside about this. I don't know if is just the NGS in me that wants to take care of everyone or if it is that I am doing something wrong. I don't think I am doing anything wrong as I truly cannot trust my W to make sure any of the bills would be paid at this time. Also at this particular moment, there is not much left at the end of each month so I am just trying to make sure everyone is taken care of as we are going through this. The longer it drags on, the more resentment seems to build up.

Thoughts on this people?

No one wants to feel that way JS, so I can understand why you would feel the way you do. Maybe it is time to institute budgets, instead of just on a want basis? Everyone gets X amount each week for fun and frivolity. Use that up and the fun and frivolity that costs money will have to wait until next week. Set it at whatever you can afford and makes sense.

You can only squeeze so much from a grape.

Originally Posted by JustSad

Question of the day:

Our anniversary is about a week away. What do I do?

I know no gifts or outrageous stuff. Kind of feels weird to not do anything and it seems kind of strange to do something as well. I just don't know what the proper response is for this. We are still married.

Well there are a few schools of thought on this around here, and I don't think any of them are "right" or "wrong". My anniversary was about 4 months after BD. XW was already moved out by then. I told her "I know this is an awkward time for us but it feels strange to just ignore our anniversary, and at the same time exchanging gifts seems inappropriate, so how about we just have dinner together?" We did, and of course it didn't change anything, but I am glad we did something and have zero regrets. The key for something like this is it can't be pursuit, and you can't have any expectations. If you are comfortable saying nothing to her, then do that. That is kind of the ultimate detachment move. Or if you just want to wish her a Happy Anniversary then do that. I think as long as you're not buying her a sloppy card and/ or giving her a pile of gifts then it's kind of up to you how to approach it.

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I'm struggling with the time this is taking, this is not a new thing. I realize this is a long term marathon and I have just started (almost 6 months now). We don't tear each other apart every other day any more, we have gotten into kind of a stalemate kind of situation where we don't really talk, we are tolerant of each other, we don't lash out at one another, but we aren't talking either. I realize this is an improvement and I am happy to be here with my family still together in the same home.

Well, I think your last sentence there tells you that what you're doing is OK for now. When that last sentence changes to "I'm not hurt or angry, but I've had enough of this situation for months now and I'm ready to move on" then it's time to take action. But until then, keep doing what you're doing.

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My problem comes with the day to day decisions and issues that happen that have to be made. Most deal with money. W refuses to work. There are the medical issues here as well. BUT, when everything that happens falls upon my shoulders, it just doesn't seem fair.

Well it's NOT fair!!!! Your marriage is 99% you and 1% your W. There is NOTHING fair or reasonable about that. But you know Michele's chapter "It Takes One to Tango", baby that "one" is YOU. You don't have a dance partner right now. Maybe you will again some day, but until then you've either got to live with it, or do something about it. Maybe come up with a timeline? Tell yourself "I will give this X more months and if something doesn't change then I will make it change."

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The longer it drags on, the more resentment seems to build up.

Thoughts on this people?

My thoughts are that it will never change, your W will just let things stay this way indefinitely. I also think you will get tired of it at some point and decide to take matters into your own hands. YOU'LL become the WAS. Ironically, when that happens and she sees what she's losing she'll probably start pursuing you.

AS,
I appreciate your insight. Especially the last paragraph. I typed a long response yesterday, but paused, deleted and wanted to think on it overnight. Yesterday was a good day in my home. I worked out of the house, actually had a few pleasant light-hearted conversations at home with my wife while in between stuff. Everything was good until a VERY small issue came up in the evening that required a financial decision. Nothing blew up, but you could feel the mood change in the room immediately. Back to reality, I guess. I actually feel I did fairly well. I didn't jump in and be superman and solve the issue, I let her wrestle with it for awhile, validated, etc. I just hate that it happened on that day! I wish we could have just one "good" day. I feel your first sentence stating that she will never change and this could go on indefinitely is very accurate. I also believe i am close to the point of your next sentences coming true. Contemplating retaining an attorney to get everything drawn up. I think this would help me in a couple of ways. I hate the limbo stage. I feel trapped not doing anything and maybe by doing this it would distract me. It would also mean that if things were to move towards a D, that I am already a little ahead of the game. i dislike spending the money on this, but it seems like a small investment in my own personal peace to move things forward. I also believe that this will help me detach as in my mind this may be more real looking at drafts, etc of the settlement. Finally, i think the longer this drags on, the more resentment builds (mentioned previously) and the chances of things blowing up to a litigated divorce increase drastically. I don't see any problem in doing this as she has no idea and i think it will help me at least feel like I am doing something and taking back control of my life.

I still want my family together, and do not feel this is an ultimatum (yet) to get her to be in the 1% that might snap her out of it. That would not happen. Our sitch is fairly new to DB'ing (6 months), but the issues have been going on for a long time.

Looking for thoughts and feedback on this. I will promise this board I will not do anything on this for the next 48 hours so I know I am not doing anything rash, and i also have the time to get feedback from those whose opinions on here I value so much.

Thank you all again, from one who is struggling along side of everyone in the board regardless of where you are in your life.

I am always supportive of contacting a lawyer. I did it in my sitch. It really broke her illusion of an easy, pain-free divorce.

Steve, did you actually draw up a proposal from your lawyer and show her?

I like to share most of everything I deem significant so all of you can get an idea of what is truly happening. I believe if everything shared is drama filled and bad, that is the only thing you see. Yesterday was a pleasant day. I was busy, running some errands and working of course but was at the house a few times. W and I had some pleasant exchanges about nothing in particular. Afternoon was good. After the kids came home we all chatted, they did their homework and then I took D out to pick up a few things. I am thoroughly enjoying my D asking and wanting to spend time with me. We are talking more and she is engaging and sharing more of her personal life with me again. I am over the moon with that!
W had an issue with her phone so she was on with tech support the entire couple of hours that we were gone. She was frustrated with that since it was into the evening and she gets fairly tired then. Good thing was she didn't take it out on anyone. I supported and validated her through this. It still isn't fixed, so she will have to deal with it today.
Definitely not going to get a new phone as I don't want the long term commitment or cost presently but she could get an exact replacement phone if they can't fix it for free.
We said good night to each other and now we are starting another day.
Still db'ing every minute of every day.
Thinking how ironic life is sometimes. Yesterday I put out that I am seriously contemplating the lawyer thing and then we have a good day. I am still contemplating it as one "decent" day is great, but it doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of our MR.

Busy, long day ahead and will not have much, if any communication with W until this evening.
Detaching. I will not reach out. Been really good at that for months. No mind reading either. I thought yesterday when I was out that when I stopped snooping, a lot of the mind reading just left. Funny how not being interested in every detail they do makes you stop being "chicken little" about anything they do.

If you could say a prayer for my family and MR I would appreciate it from all of you.

Originally Posted by JustSad

Steve, did you actually draw up a proposal from your lawyer and show her?

No. I only did the initial consultation. However, it was very helpful. Really helped set my mind at ease and helped me take another step towards detachment.

And then I told her I had talked to a lawyer. Her face dropped. Remember she had it in her head we would do a quickie online D. No pain. No arguing. No issues. I also said that while the filing would be no-fault, I would be Ding her for unfaithfulness. (This was an important designation for us due to our religious beliefs.)

It was after that discussion that I think she started weighing the pain between staying and going. Especially since my 180s were making staying look more painless than prior to BD.

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I know its part of being a parent and I take pride in being able to provide for my family, but when you ask a question and W responds "I don't have any money, you have to ask your Dad" It puts me in an awkard position especially if I have to say no.

I thought it was just common language in a family. That's what I heard growing up, and that's what was said to my own kids. If one parent doesn't have it, the kids are told to ask the other parent. IMHO, you are the one causing yourself to feel you are in an awkward position. You seem to hate having to be the parent who might possibly be seen as less favorable..... and at times, you seem almost envious of your W's "position" with the kids. I just think you bring unnecessary emotional stress upon yourself in matters such as this (with the kids).

I don't want to sound as if I am saying none of this is important. All forms of parenting are important. I'm talking about how it makes you feel. It's bad when there are serious M issues, b/c everything can become highly sensitive for the one who wants to save his MR. I am concerned how much it weighs on you, which I have previously expressed. You've been under a lot of emotional strain, and it might help to have someone to talk to in person. Have you considered talking to an IC?

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I am thoroughly enjoying my D asking and wanting to spend time with me. We are talking more and she is engaging and sharing more of her personal life with me again. I am over the moon with that!

That is wonderful to hear! I'm so glad the father-daughter R is growing.

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Definitely not going to get a new phone as I don't want the long term commitment or cost presently

Okay, so you sound like a normal dad who has no problem with taking this stand with the phone. You don't feel as if you are in an awkward position. What's different in this situation and the one where your W tells the kids to ask their dad if he has money they can have? See what I mean?

Sandi,
Thanks as always for your input.
I have always taken pride in the fact that we (I always thought of it as "we" as a team) were able to have the now non traditional luxury of a stay at home mom. I sacrificed a lot of time with them over the years so I could go and do what I do so our family could have that level of support in our home.
She doesn't have to work.
She gets to see the kids way more often than I do.
And presently with her decision to blow up our family, I guess I am a bit envious that she has a great bond with our kids and I am the working dad with the traditional dad role. (The wait til your father gets home threat was used many times).
It usually wouldn't bother me, but this is a new situation. We have always had a joint account where we would pay the minor bills and incidentals out of. Never a question on that. With the situation changing, I have drastically reduced the amount that she has access to while still making sure that our family has everything they need. It isn't so much the usual "I don't have any cash, ask your dad/mom". It is now "I don't work, you know I don't have any money, your dad doesn't give me any money, so go and ask him is the answer". It is not so much the actual situation, just the way in which my W seems to throw me under the bus to them especially if I have to say no since we are fairly tight. AND if I were to be "sure, here you go", I get the sneering look from my W that I am either just doing it to get back at her, or that I'm really making a lot more than I am telling her and just not sharing with her. That is where I have the issues. If it was just the normal part of life and parenting, I would be fine. Example would be the phone thing. It came up since my D had an issue with hers and had to get it replaced. W then just came right out and said "if anyone is getting a new phone its me". Made me laugh a little as in the past I would have jumped at the chance to "rescue" and take care of her problem. So NOT doing that and not reacting is huge for me. But that is why I feel the longer this goes on the more resentment just builds up. Regardless of what I do will be wrong in her eyes. If I say "no" I'm a bad guy. If I say "yes" I'm a bad guy. I am in a no win situation with no end in sight. I am just making sure that I don't react to her comments which are mostly just digs at me and trying to instigate any type of negative response.

Yes, I am a recovering nice guy. NGS hit home hard and I have been that way my entire life. What caused it? Who knows, but I definitely have it and am working on it daily. I am re-reading NMMNG again right now on breaks at work. This will definitely help me in every aspect of my life in all relationships moving forward. Regardless if we D or not, the worst that happens is I know I will be ok. I will have gotten a life. And working through the NGS will make me a better person for the future.

And yes, I recognize that I do put a lot of these issues on myself. I do need to get an IC.

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