Old Thread (Part 1) -
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2785093#Post2785093Thank you all for your valuable suggestions and I am surprsied I lasted upto 100 responses through the previous forum. That is quite an acheivement. In fact i thought my divorce would be final even before i could finish the first thread.
I will begin part 2 of my stitch with a teeny weeny glimpse .000001% of ray of hope.
Like i decided in the previous thread, I decided to give a surprise visit to my wife and met her. I will give a step by step interpretation of what happened below-
I took some sweets and knocked at her door. She approached me (could hear a small noise on the other side of doir) saw me through peep hole. And did not bother to open the door. I waited and knocked again Almost 5 min later she opened the door with an arrogant look
Me: hi how are you?
WAW : why did you come? You shouldn't be here. At this time we are left with a week. We shouldn't be talking to each other.
Me: (After a brief pause) I came here casually. I wanted to discuss some things with you. Can I come in at least.
WAW: its too late and I have work tomorrow. You also didn't give me a headsup. But anyways since you have come this far, you may come in. You are lije a guest to me.
I went in and removed my shoes and offered her the sweets. She rejected saying she will not accept it. That i should take it back. I insisted saying they are good ones. She said No. Didn't say a word and kept that myself.
Sat on the sofa and she was sitting diagonally opposite. Told her she has furnished the home very well. Has a beautiful balcony view. And she said "Thanks for kicking me out. Dissolution date is fast approaching. I m very happy. I will be able to move on peacefully. I didn't say a word. She offered me a glass of water. I said yes. Offered me dinner. I said no. I didnt come here to eat. Just listened to her. She asked me to let her know to discuss the details i came for. I said lets discuss it casually. There is no hurry. And asked about her well being, her work, and discussed about her family's well being. Asked how she manages to eat. She responded similar to what i had mentioned earlier - eating frozen food and the like. I saw her. Her eyes were watery (may be she had cried befire opening door) and she seemed weak. She is definitely lonely.
I said since its already dinner time, lets have dinner. She had prepared some pancakes and microwaved some frozen gravy. Both of us took it and ate together silently. I asked few questions about how family is doing. She simply noded her head positively. Was a bit arrogant. I didn't bother her much.
After dinner, sat there for a while and took some time to process thoughts. Then she asked me again to tell her why i came-
Me: (very very confidently and firm voice) you know i was never and even now not happy with this divorce decision. My signature on paper is just a forced decision and not my heart felt decision. I am not for it. I signed becaused of your insistence. However I do love you deeply. I spoke to my lawyer and i want to extend this for 2 more months by filing motion to reconcile and i need your help!)
WAW: i dnt want to reconcile. why do you want it ? Is it because your sister is getting married and you dont want anyone in your family to know about this before her marraige? Or is it your friends insisting?
Me: nothing to do with my family or my friends. In fact my friend's wife had tears in her eyes when she spoke to me about you. But that is notveven the reason. I took this decision. I have given pretty much everything to youbso far all the time. But i am asking you for this. This motion to reconcile is only for me. You are entitled to your feelings to divorce. But i need 2 more months.
WAW: what if i say no? And after 2 months what if you say no again? What do you plan to do? I dont want to disturb my peace of mind. I want to get this disdolved done.
Me: if you say no, i will withdraw my dissolution consent and it will get converted to a normal divorce proceedings. After 2 months we have an option either to dissolve or get this converted to divorce again.
WAW: let me write it down and discuss with my lawyer. At this time i am not sure. I will let you know. Either ways divorce is final. You will never take me as your wife and i can never take you as my husband. However, if there is anyone in this world who cares for you first is me and i am always your wellwisher. When you are in misery and lift your hand, i will be there to help you. What i want now is peaceful life. May be the motion to reconcile is a better option since divorce is more painful where lawyers make money and extract all hidden assets and ultimately it gets nullified , they make money.
Me: i have no hidden assets yo hide. I am brutally honest with you. i will ensure both of us will be peacefull in the end one way or the other. Which is why i suggested motion to reconcile. Even divorce is inot the best soltion. I agree.
WAW: So you came all the way here just to convey this? You could have simply texted over phone. ( sarcastically)
Me: i wanted to meet you and convey this to you personally. Anyways i will leave now. Got up and started wearing my shoes.
WAW: waited until i finished wearig my shoe. She Started talking about her heartfelt feelings.how i created boundaries of having our last conversation and how i didnt keep up with any of it. I offered to come in again and listen to her. She agreed.
Me: sat on thecsofa and listened to her intently with full eye contact and confidence.
WAW: (spoke some of her personal heartfelt feelings) although we can never be togetheher i may agree to this one time 2 month extension. It doesnt matter as long as i am peaceful. You need to know this divorce i am taking for helping you as well as you deserve someone better and not me. You have a very dark side in you that only i know and none of your friends and no one in this world know. I hope one day before ypu die you come to me and accept what that is? I will forgive you for whatever you have.
Me: (maintaining proper eye contact) you need to elaborate it a bit more. I dont understand. If you can give me a bit more info on the dark side it will be helpful.
WAW: you know better what i am talking about.
Me: Sorry i dont know what you are saying.
WAW: anyways i need to wake up early tomm. bye ( with an arrogant look and closed doir)
Me: i wished her the very best and left with the sweets i had got for her.
Folks let me know your thoughts.
Why dont you tell us what your thoughts are first?
How do you think this helped you?
Or did it hurt your sitch?
How did you feel before, during, after?
Let me know how you think it went and what impact it may have and then ill tell you what I think.
Nutcrac, I feel you did more damage than good. Another poster gave you the better way to approach. And that was to withdraw your consent without consulting with her. This would have effectively accomplished what you wanted without her approval or disapproval. Look if she wants a D then you make her a D you. DBing isn't making it easy for her to leave. That is essentially that you are doing.
Her "D is bad because lawyers get everything" crap is just that. Crap. She wants an easy way out and that is dissolution. Fight it. Make her do the work!
This board is full of sitches where the LBS left the work of the D to the WAS. In a lot of cases the WAS decides that it's too onerous and then stays in the MR. The ones that deal with issues properly then can create a new MR out of the ashes of BD.
You are right to fight dissolution. You are wrong in thinking you can pursue her back. Fight dissolution. Make her D you. That's your best chance.
I saw nothing in the update that provided hope. I saw an obstinate spouse that was reluctantly hospitable. The refusal to accept the sweets speaks volumes. You say she wants to be pursued. Nothing in her words or actions in what you told us corroborates that declaration.
You have a bad case of NGS. You really should read the book NMMNG.
NutCrac - this did far more damage than you just leaving it alone. I can just see her disrespect growing with every conversation and the pursuit is just bananas. Stop this line of action immediately if you want better outcomes for yourself. There is no glimmer of hope in any of it, infact it just worsened your situation.
Why dont you tell us what your thoughts are first?
How do you think this helped you?
Or did it hurt your sitch?
How did you feel before, during, after?
Let me know how you think it went and what impact it may have and then ill tell you what I think.
So I was prepared for the Worst case scenario. Thought she would get belligerent and abusive when she sees me or when i brought up the topic of discussion. However, I got just the opposite. She is very very lonely. She misses me but too stubborn to admit it. She agrees that she is emotionally very attached to me but her decision to end this marraige is final. However, she did not pick up any fights or arguments or literally anything that caused more pain. She seems peaceful.
It definitely helped the situation since she said she would consider giving a 2 months extension rather than divorce which is painful for both of us. That in itself is a big win for me at this time. As long as she is peaceful and not being bothered of the past she seems ok.
I was confident (a little bit of mixed feelings) before I met her, I was confident throughout the time i spoke with her. when i left i was satisfied with the conversation outcome. That was the best i could expect as I had prepared for the worst situation.
I feel she doesn't want divorce either like sandi2 mentioned. She definitely didnt like the fact that I allowed her to step out of home. (I had to as she was stubborn & adamant to leave) and she still blames me that I kicked her out. Wrong! however i kept my cool. So i understand what she is going through. I feel my mutual friends talking to her helped her a lot. So she could let out all her bad feelings about me and my family. And that may have calmed her down. She was definitely not happy about me setting boundaries and breaking them. She conveyed that to me. However she was also receptive of the fact that she would give 2 months extension and that's it.
I spoke with the DB counselor soon after meeting her. The DB counselor felt that I should have contacted her before giving that letter. The letter although conveyed a lot of message to her was not put in the right way. Both of us are talking mouth to mouth. Not Heart to heart. Both of us definitely don't want divorce. But too much pride to validate each other. Both of us have not seen the last of each other breaking boundaries and getting back on conversations. Hence she suggested the need for more validation from my end and show empathy towards her rather than asking for explanations. She did agree to the fact of my decision that I should take it forward by wooing her down the line since it is what she seems to expect from me. She is just signalling me but she is not conveying from her words. Sandi2 has pointed out some of these points in her earlier posts.
I feel overall it was a positive sign in the right direction. Again I am not concerned about the outcome. I know few of you suggested not pursuing her by meeting her and all that. I feel that was not the right decision in my case at least. She did not treat me bad. She was receptive of my withdrawal decision and she was willing to give it a thought. She did not belittle me and was neutral.
I feel the loneliness has made her realize a lot of what she did and her feelings in this marraige. She has too much stubborn pride and does not want to apologize. She still puts me in the fault of kicking her out and suspecting a dark side of me (To this date i dont know what that is!) Like i said, I will just be strong going forward. I will not give in to her bad treatment. However even though she clearly told me not to pursue her during the Reconciliation phase, I have to woo her one way or the other, and hopefully involve my friends to have her socialize and slowly approach her. I am just taking a leap of faith in the whole situation and not bothering about the outcome. That is all that matters and I am happy about that!
Nutcrac, she only agreed to the 2 months because she fears for opposition to dissolution. If 2 more months gets her the easy way out then she is willing. Dance with not treating you bad. She is being peaceful to get that she wants. dissolution. How are you not seeing that?!?
Maika & Steve85,
I respect your points of view on how you see my stitch! But I clearly am in disagreement on many of your views. More damage would have been done, If i ignored her further more. Sorry to say this but it is true. If I had not gone and spoke to her yesterday, she would not have given any thought about extending it. In fact, I was even thinking she might call the cops. That is not what happened.
So are you saying that you don't agree with the DB coach assessment about "both of us not wanting to have divorce"? You are seeing majority of cases here which are mainly the WAW turned WW or something similar. My wife is none of those. Yes she is a WAW. but she is taking her decisions for her moral values and flawed reasoning. She is hurt by me. I have made mistakes and so has she. But a woman's pride is too strong. Its not easy to break the walls and takes time. She definitely knows I read a lot of blogs and forums and thinks the changes in me are mainly due to the internet and not the real ones. I am pretty sure she sees me doing the text book approaches and may be she is entirely aware of this blog or even this thread. Trust me she is very smart! What matters most here is what you really feel from your heart and do it. I don't understand when you guys say 'damage'. I respectfully disagree. A lot of Damage has already been done leaving her alone for a long. Its time to put some efforts to start getting close to her and see how it goes. I can definitely see, she likes the new confident man who is strong to face situation and circumstances. That is all she will get even in her belligerent mode. If she wants to throw me out. Let her throw me out.
Steve and Makia already said it wayyyy better than i could.
Way more damage was caused by this action as you were warned.
Nutcrac, she only agreed to the 2 months because she fears for opposition to dissolution. If 2 more months gets her the easy way out then she is willing. Dance with not treating you bad. She is being peaceful to get that she wants. dissolution. How are you not seeing that?!?
Motion to reconcile can be extended after 2 months as well or again converted to divorce. I will wait for her decision after talking to her lawyer. So there would have been 2 scenarios here -
1) If I had not discussed this decision with her, it would have simply converted to divorce - worst outcome, which is what many of you suggested.
2) Now she has an opportunity to extend for 2 more months. Because I discussed with her. She can accept it or deny it. I have a fair feeling that she may accept it despite not knowing what the future outcome is.
Steve and Makia already said it wayyyy better than i could.
Way more damage was caused by this action as you were warned.
OrangeK - Be specific what is that "way more damage" you are talking about. And why does the DB counselor feels it is different?
Did you go and read my sitch?
Pursuing will not get you the results you seek. I can tell you that from Experience
Divorce is not the worst outcome. Trying to prevent it and hanging around in limbo is. Recon can happen after D. Infact we have stories here where that's been the case.
You're trying to avoid something and in the process making it worse. Best thing is to give her what she wants and figure your stuff out. Fighting or delaying it worsens your situation and your standing in her eyes. Now you're an adversary - not the position you want to be in.
Divorce is not the worst outcome. Trying to prevent it and hanging around in limbo is. Recon can happen after D. Infact we have stories here where that's been the case.
You're trying to avoid something and in the process making it worse. Best thing is to give her what she wants and figure your stuff out. Fighting or delaying it worsens your situation and your standing in her eyes. Now you're an adversary - not the position you want to be in.
Disagree. Many woman want you to fight for them with confidence. I am just giving away easily to her. In this case I will make her fight for D. Best thing is for me to delay as much as possible and not allow this to be easy for her. Thats how she will be in the second thoughts phase.
Maika & Steve85,
I respect your points of view on how you see my stitch! But I clearly am in disagreement on many of your views. More damage would have been done, If i ignored her further more. Sorry to say this but it is true. If I had not gone and spoke to her yesterday, she would not have given any thought about extending it. In fact, I was even thinking she might call the cops. That is not what happened.
So are you saying that you don't agree with the DB coach assessment about "both of us not wanting to have divorce"? You are seeing majority of cases here which are mainly the WAW turned WW or something similar. My wife is none of those. Yes she is a WAW. but she is taking her decisions for her moral values and flawed reasoning. She is hurt by me. I have made mistakes and so has she. But a woman's pride is too strong. Its not easy to break the walls and takes time. She definitely knows I read a lot of blogs and forums and thinks the changes in me are mainly due to the internet and not the real ones. I am pretty sure she sees me doing the text book approaches and may be she is entirely aware of this blog or even this thread. Trust me she is very smart! What matters most here is what you really feel from your heart and do it. I don't understand when you guys say 'damage'. I respectfully disagree. A lot of Damage has already been done leaving her alone for a long. Its time to put some efforts to start getting close to her and see how it goes. I can definitely see, she likes the new confident man who is strong to face situation and circumstances. That is all she will get even in her belligerent mode. If she wants to throw me out. Let her throw me out.
Everyone here has a spouse that is leaving based on flawed reasoning! Everyone here as a spouse that questions the positive changes in the LBS. Everyone of us have smart spouses that realizes there are resources like this forum, MWD and her books. Everyone of us thinks that DBing is doing damage when it isn't.
The fact that she didn't throw you out MEANS nothing. She made it very clear that you were not welcome and that she was only treating you as a guest out of obligation. Congratulations, you have a WAS with etiquette. Doesn't help your situation.
Nut,
I'm going to start off with WOW. You showed up to your W door with one of the most selfish declarations I have seen in a long time. You didn't validate any of her feelings and you most likely pushed her further away.
You showed and told her a bunch of what you wanted and why. The whole time she told you she didnt want what you wanted. She's telling she doesn't want the M and you essentially told her you do. That old M you and her had is dead and she has expressed that as strongly as possible. You didnt validate a single feeling. You are on this board telling us you know your W but you dont even know what evil ways she thinks you have. This means you dont know why your W is resenting you. Have you 180ed any of what she said she didnt like?
The only thing I see, is a selfish man that don't know why his W has left and has the nerve to balme it on her stubbornness. You are the stubborn one!
What you essentially did was try to make a person do something they don't want to do, it was a form if manipulation. It's like giving a person that don't want or like coffee an option to have a cup of coffee. She tells you I don't like coffee anymore, and you have just told her, well take two more months to decide if you don't want or like this coffee.
You need to read up on validation, do alot of self reflection and be honest with yourself. You don't know your W, because if you did you would not have to ask her "what evil side".
I'm not being mean, I'm being honest. You need to take a step back and sit in a quiet room and reflect on the type of person you are. Because what I read from what you did yesterday was from a selfish man.
Well, all I can do is wish you the best in your path. I truly hope that you're right and that it works out in your favor.
Did you go and read my sitch?
Pursuing will not get you the results you seek. I can tell you that from Experience
OrangeK I have read your sticth. There are many similaraties between your W and mine in terms of behaviour especially Narcisism and BPD. However there is one major diff - Your wife is WW and mine is a WAW with broken heart. They are 2 different breeds. A WW is more cheating and a lot more manipulative compared to a WAW who is broken hearted. Anyways, I will wait for her response. She has too much anger in her. And she may slowly diffuse it hoping if I take things the right way. Lets see where it goes.
Nutcrac, she only agreed to the 2 months because she fears for opposition to dissolution. If 2 more months gets her the easy way out then she is willing. Dance with not treating you bad. She is being peaceful to get that she wants. dissolution. How are you not seeing that?!?
Motion to reconcile can be extended after 2 months as well or again converted to divorce. I will wait for her decision after talking to her lawyer. So there would have been 2 scenarios here -
1) If I had not discussed this decision with her, it would have simply converted to divorce - worst outcome, which is what many of you suggested.
2) Now she has an opportunity to extend for 2 more months. Because I discussed with her. She can accept it or deny it. I have a fair feeling that she may accept it despite not knowing what the future outcome is.
Notice from your update:
Me: if you say no, i will withdraw my dissolution consent and it will get converted to a normal divorce proceedings. After 2 months we have an option either to dissolve or get this converted to divorce again.
THIS PROVES MY POINT.
She wants dissolution over D (because it is easier). You told her if she didn't agree to the 2 months then she would have to change from dissolution to D.
Therefore she is considering the 2 months ONLY to eventually get the dissolution, instead of the D. Notice in your update she was pushing to get assurances from you that if she agreed to the 2 months that at the end of it you would agree to dissolution. You didn't give her that assurance BUT she know she still has a chance at dissolution if she agrees to the 2 months.
So nothing you said changes what I said. She only agreed to consider it because she wants the easy way out: dissolution. And if waiting 2 more months is what that takes she is willing to wait.
The point nutcrac is that do not take her willingness to consider it, or even if she eventually agrees to it, as her being open to R. You forced her to do it.
Again, for the last time since you don't want to hear it, the better option was just to remove your consent for dissolution and let her deal with it. Either she'd push forward with D, or she'd cancel everything hoping to convince you to dissolution at some point in the future.
Can I ask what nationality you are? Your English is unconventional. You also have a bit of a biased opinion of women. You keep talking about women being stubborn and prideful. Last I checked women didn't have a monopoly on that. In fact, you yourself are showing yourself to be very prideful and stubborn. Just saying.
Nut,
I'm going to start off with WOW. You showed up to your W door with one of the most selfish declarations I have seen in a long time. You didn't validate any of her feelings and you most likely pushed her further away.
You showed and told her a bunch of what you wanted and why. The whole time she told you she didnt want what you wanted. She's telling she doesn't want the M and you essentially told her you do. That old M you and her had is dead and she has expressed that as strongly as possible. You didnt validate a single feeling. You are on this board telling us you know your W but you dont even know what evil ways she thinks you have. This means you dont know why your W is resenting you. Have you 180ed any of what she said she didnt like?
The only thing I see, is a selfish man that don't know why his W has left and has the nerve to balme it on her stubbornness. You are the stubborn one!
What you essentially did was try to make a person do something they don't want to do, it was a form if manipulation. It's like giving a person that don't want or like coffee an option to have a cup of coffee. She tells you I don't like coffee anymore, and you have just told her, well take two more months to decide if you don't want or like this coffee.
You need to read up on validation, do alot of self reflection and be honest with yourself. You don't know your W, because if you did you would not have to ask her "what evil side".
I'm not being mean, I'm being honest. You need to take a step back and sit in a quiet room and reflect on the type of person you are. Because what I read from what you did yesterday was from a selfish man.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I am not saying anything wrong. Yes I may be selfish. At this time, I really dont care if my wife has to be with me or Not. So Let me ask you this - If she agrees to the 2 months reconciliation despite knowing that after 2 months, I still have the same options as of today, she gave me a choice despite knowing that I am a selfish man? If she doesn't give that option its a different story.
And regarding validation, I did validate her. I said you are still entitled to your divorce opinion. However I am not. Common. You cannot simply allow your wife to have everything. You have the right to fight her for certain things. She is entitled to her feelings. I did not dismiss that and I heard it!
Regarding the "evil side", she is entitled to it again. She does not trust me and she things only negative and gets that weird feelings about me. And lets say if your wife had come and told you the same - you have an evil side. Would you simply know by that phrase what evil side you have? Its not easy as you think.
And this is nothing selfish about me. I am still strong and confident and It doesn't really matter if my wife comes back or not. If she does not come back, its her problem, her headache. Not mine. I will move on and so does she with her lone sufferings.
So lets take this as a test and let me know what you think according to you would be the outcome? Do you think she will agree to stall for 2 more months? Or she will simply say no and convert it to a divorce process? My gut feeling is despite her hate towards me, she will choose the first option!
Did you go and read my sitch?
Pursuing will not get you the results you seek. I can tell you that from Experience
OrangeK I have read your sticth. There are many similaraties between your W and mine in terms of behaviour especially Narcisism and BPD. However there is one major diff - Your wife is WW and mine is a WAW with broken heart. They are 2 different breeds. A WW is more cheating and a lot more manipulative compared to a WAW who is broken hearted. Anyways, I will wait for her response. She has too much anger in her. And she may slowly diffuse it hoping if I take things the right way. Lets see where it goes.
I do not think you know this for sure. There could be an OM. Your stubborn pride will probably say no way. But we've all thought that and have been wrong. Nutcrac most people do not move on from their MR unless they have a solid other option in place. Sorry to be blunt, but monkeys don't jump from the branch they are on unless they think there is a better branch to jump to.
So the jury is still out in your sitch on whether or not you W is a WW or not. And it is very dangerous to assume she isn't.
Your actions betray your words about being strong and confident and you have nothing to lose. You're acting to her like you have everything to lose.
Also, I know about the anger part. This is the important part - there is NOTHING you can do about the anger. She has to process that and deal with that herself. All you can do is make it worse, but not better. The only way it gets better is if you get out of the way of the anger. She can project it as much as she wants, but if you let it off your back and disappear, then that anger has nowhere to go for her.
No matter what you try, if she's angry, it's not going to matter. It took my W almost a year to get out of her anger and rage, and she's still not out of it completely. I got out of her way. That's the only option.
You've gotten great advice here and you've ignored all of it. But, that's okay. The outcomes will speak for themselves when it comes around. And as I said, I hope you're right, but I will bet against your approach. All In with all chips.
So lets take this as a test and let me know what you think according to you would be the outcome? Do you think she will agree to stall for 2 more months? Or she will simply say no and convert it to a divorce process? My gut feeling is despite her hate towards me, she will choose the first option!
Yes she will stall hoping to get her dissolution.
No she will not say no because she wants the easy way out (dissolution).
You are right in your prediction but not for reconciliation, but simply to eventually get what she wants.
Did you go and read my sitch?
Pursuing will not get you the results you seek. I can tell you that from Experience
OrangeK I have read your sticth. There are many similaraties between your W and mine in terms of behaviour especially Narcisism and BPD. However there is one major diff - Your wife is WW and mine is a WAW with broken heart. They are 2 different breeds. A WW is more cheating and a lot more manipulative compared to a WAW who is broken hearted. Anyways, I will wait for her response. She has too much anger in her. And she may slowly diffuse it hoping if I take things the right way. Lets see where it goes.
I do not think you know this for sure. There could be an OM. Your stubborn pride will probably say no way. But we've all thought that and have been wrong. Nutcrac most people do not move on from their MR unless they have a solid other option in place. Sorry to be blunt, but monkeys don't jump from the branch they are on unless they think there is a better branch to jump to.
So the jury is still out in your sitch on whether or not you W is a WW or not. And it is very dangerous to assume she isn't.
Again , this is your opinion. Yes i am stubborn. And i have said this earlier. She IS NOT seeing anyone. And for a millionth time this is true. If that was the case she could have told me so I could move on as well. When my friends went she discussed about moving on with her life as a single mother with an adopted child at her home country. I know her. (You may disagree and dismiss my opinion) but she is not seeing anyone. Infact sandi2 will affirm from my stitch that there is no other man involved.
So lets take this as a test and let me know what you think according to you would be the outcome? Do you think she will agree to stall for 2 more months? Or she will simply say no and convert it to a divorce process? My gut feeling is despite her hate towards me, she will choose the first option!
Yes she will stall hoping to get her dissolution.
No she will not say no because she wants the easy way out (dissolution).
You are right in your prediction but not for reconciliation, but simply to eventually get what she wants.
So are you saying she is ready to stall and come back to the same options after 2 months. I may still have an option to extend this or convert to divorce. Why will she take more pain then what she currently has? That would be a dumb thing to do. The best option for her now is to convert this to divorce process if she really wants to get out easily
!
So lets take this as a test and let me know what you think according to you would be the outcome? Do you think she will agree to stall for 2 more months? Or she will simply say no and convert it to a divorce process? My gut feeling is despite her hate towards me, she will choose the first option!
Yes she will stall hoping to get her dissolution.
No she will not say no because she wants the easy way out (dissolution).
You are right in your prediction but not for reconciliation, but simply to eventually get what she wants.
So are you saying she is ready to stall and come back to the same options after 2 months. I may still have an option to extend this or convert to divorce. Why will she take more pain then what she currently has? That would be a dumb thing to do. The best option for her now is to convert this to divorce process if she really wants to get out easily
!
Let me make it as easy for you as I can:
She wants dissolution because it is easier.
She wants to avoid D for the reasons she gave you in your update.
You said she has a choice: delay the dissolution for 2 months or D.
She said she'd consider the delay because: a) divorce proceedings will take 6 months+. b) Dissolution is her ultimate goal c) in the grand scheme of things 2 months isn't that long.
So yes, she is willing to wait 2 more months to avoid having to move for D. She is hoping the 2 months will cause you to NOT withdraw your consent.
Nutcrac, how are you not seeing this?! I'll say this, if she has an inclination that there is no way you will consent to dissolution after 2 months, then she WILL let it proceed to D. In fact, I dare you to tell her that in 2 months you will still be against dissolution. She will convert to D so fast your head will spin.
Your actions betray your words about being strong and confident and you have nothing to lose. You're acting to her like you have everything to lose.
Also, I know about the anger part. This is the important part - there is NOTHING you can do about the anger. She has to process that and deal with that herself. All you can do is make it worse, but not better. The only way it gets better is if you get out of the way of the anger. She can project it as much as she wants, but if you let it off your back and disappear, then that anger has nowhere to go for her.
No matter what you try, if she's angry, it's not going to matter. It took my W almost a year to get out of her anger and rage, and she's still not out of it completely. I got out of her way. That's the only option.
You've gotten great advice here and you've ignored all of it. But, that's okay. The outcomes will speak for themselves when it comes around. And as I said, I hope you're right, but I will bet against your approach. All In with all chips.
The problem here is my wife has a very low self esteem that she is not beautiful enough and she cannot attract me towards her. I did not act to her making her feel like i have everything to lose. Sorry! She clearly said last time when we spoke, she does not want to be married to me as she doesn't feel loved or being wanted by me. Hence this is an unconventional case, where she wants just the opposite. A feeling of being cared for and deserved. However her heard will not open up as she no longer trusts me.
Yes, the anger may never go away. In my wife's case i expect it to stay forever . Forget a year or even 10 years. The trust and her anger issues are what is stopping her to come to me.
And i think i have said it clear. You guys may all be right. Put all your chips in. Like the movie "Inception" the end outcome is not something that really matters to me now. I am strong enough to handle life by my own regardless of the outcome!
Nutcrac, how are you not seeing this?! I'll say this, if she has an inclination that there is no way you will consent to dissolution after 2 months, then she WILL let it proceed to D. In fact, I dare you to tell her that in 2 months you will still be against dissolution. She will convert to D so fast your head will spin.
Why could I create more anger to her by telling her this. In dissolution i did not contest her any money. I said the same thing will happen for divorce. I still don't want her money. I simply want both of us to be peaceful. and i will expect both to be happier and peaceful ultimately. I assured her the same. The is a promise of a person who is NOT SELFISH. rather a person who is ready to let go off his ailing spouse!
Stop making excuses for her man.
Your actions betray your words about being strong and confident and you have nothing to lose. You're acting to her like you have everything to lose.
Also, I know about the anger part. This is the important part - there is NOTHING you can do about the anger. She has to process that and deal with that herself. All you can do is make it worse, but not better. The only way it gets better is if you get out of the way of the anger. She can project it as much as she wants, but if you let it off your back and disappear, then that anger has nowhere to go for her.
No matter what you try, if she's angry, it's not going to matter. It took my W almost a year to get out of her anger and rage, and she's still not out of it completely. I got out of her way. That's the only option.
You've gotten great advice here and you've ignored all of it. But, that's okay. The outcomes will speak for themselves when it comes around. And as I said, I hope you're right, but I will bet against your approach. All In with all chips.
The problem here is my wife has a very low self esteem that she is not beautiful enough and she cannot attract me towards her. I did not act to her making her feel like i have everything to lose. Sorry! She clearly said last time when we spoke, she does not want to be married to me as she doesn't feel loved or being wanted by me. Hence this is an unconventional case, where she wants just the opposite. A feeling of being cared for and deserved. However her heard will not open up as she no longer trusts me.
Yes, the anger may never go away. In my wife's case i expect it to stay forever . Forget a year or even 10 years. The trust and her anger issues are what is stopping her to come to me.
And i think i have said it clear. You guys may all be right. Put all your chips in. Like the movie "Inception" the end outcome is not something that really matters to me now. I am strong enough to handle life by my own regardless of the outcome!
Nutcrac, WRONG WRONG WRONG! LOL This is a WAW trying to let you down easy. It is like the GF breaking up with the BF saying "it isn't you, its me!"
She is projecting. When a WAW says "he doesn't feel loved or being wanted by me" that means "I don't love you and I do not want you."
You are believing what she says and you can't do that!
On BD my W said things like "I don't think you love me." "I don't think you ever wanted to marry me." "I don't think you can take care of me." SO WRONG, your situation is not unique and you are deluding yourself telling yourself that.
I don't understand that if you expect her anger will never go away how pursuing her can change that. But whatever.
I hope you are right about being ready no matter the outcome. I don't believe you otherwise you'd be taking a different tact on this. But I've said my peace. More times than I should. I leave you to do what you want. I will bow out since you don't want to hear it anyway.
Peace, and I will pray for you and your sitch.
Again, for the last time since you don't want to hear it, the better option was just to remove your consent for dissolution and let her deal with it. Either she'd push forward with D, or she'd cancel everything hoping to convince you to dissolution at some point in the future.
Can I ask what nationality you are? Your English is unconventional. You also have a bit of a biased opinion of women. You keep talking about women being stubborn and prideful. Last I checked women didn't have a monopoly on that. In fact, you yourself are showing yourself to be very prideful and stubborn. Just saying.
Withdrawing consent without letting her know would have been the WORST option given the circumstances. It would prove to my wife I have something hidden sinister agendas and ultimately wanted to go for her money and all this dissolution was just an eye wash to her. Like I said the only way to withdraw consent is on the final hearing date in front of the magistrate. There is no formal paperwork that needs to be filed prior to that. By letting her know my decision in advance was based on my attorney's suggestions. So she could have had enough time to think about what she wants to do after discussing with her attorney. By letting her know about my decision, she was at least aware of the fact that she has 2 options, agree or disagree and would know the outcome in advance.
I don't want to point out my country but I am from South Asia
. Yes you are right regarding my bias. Women from my country have a bit more stubborn pride and too conservative unlike many western nations. I was a pretty easy going guy. Alas I have become stubborn these days due to frustration and stress
but not that I can't control
Your actions betray your words about being strong and confident and you have nothing to lose. You're acting to her like you have everything to lose.
Also, I know about the anger part. This is the important part - there is NOTHING you can do about the anger. She has to process that and deal with that herself. All you can do is make it worse, but not better. The only way it gets better is if you get out of the way of the anger. She can project it as much as she wants, but if you let it off your back and disappear, then that anger has nowhere to go for her.
No matter what you try, if she's angry, it's not going to matter. It took my W almost a year to get out of her anger and rage, and she's still not out of it completely. I got out of her way. That's the only option.
You've gotten great advice here and you've ignored all of it. But, that's okay. The outcomes will speak for themselves when it comes around. And as I said, I hope you're right, but I will bet against your approach. All In with all chips.
The problem here is my wife has a very low self esteem that she is not beautiful enough and she cannot attract me towards her. I did not act to her making her feel like i have everything to lose. Sorry! She clearly said last time when we spoke, she does not want to be married to me as she doesn't feel loved or being wanted by me. Hence this is an unconventional case, where she wants just the opposite. A feeling of being cared for and deserved. However her heard will not open up as she no longer trusts me.
Yes, the anger may never go away. In my wife's case i expect it to stay forever . Forget a year or even 10 years. The trust and her anger issues are what is stopping her to come to me.
And i think i have said it clear. You guys may all be right. Put all your chips in. Like the movie "Inception" the end outcome is not something that really matters to me now. I am strong enough to handle life by my own regardless of the outcome!
Nutcrac, WRONG WRONG WRONG! LOL This is a WAW trying to let you down easy. It is like the GF breaking up with the BF saying "it isn't you, its me!"
She is projecting. When a WAW says "he doesn't feel loved or being wanted by me" that means "I don't love you and I do not want you."
You are believing what she says and you can't do that!
On BD my W said things like "I don't think you love me." "I don't think you ever wanted to marry me." "I don't think you can take care of me." SO WRONG, your situation is not unique and you are deluding yourself telling yourself that.
I don't understand that if you expect her anger will never go away how pursuing her can change that. But whatever.
I hope you are right about being ready no matter the outcome. I don't believe you otherwise you'd be taking a different tact on this. But I've said my peace. More times than I should. I leave you to do what you want. I will bow out since you don't want to hear it anyway.
Peace, and I will pray for you and your sitch.
A few things -
1) Why does she cry at her workplace restroom everyday?
2) Why did she roam around the marital home 4 - 5 times the past month since i left.
3) Why does she see our pictures together in dropbox secretly which keeps showing up in my recently viewed list. (I removed her dropbox access btw)
4) Why does the DB counselor / sandi2 think otherwise that she is also in love with me but too much pride to admit?
Like i said she is too stubborn to admit she loves me and she may never. I don't know. She does have feelings for me. But does not want to live with me. Its similar to the real life story of Jennifer carpenter and Michael C Hall (Dexter hero) when they married and separated. She cried on the interview set, when asked why she divorced Mike. She said she has a lot of respect for him, however they are not made for each other. My wife thinks exactly the same. Nothing wrong. She has sensed it.
When I said pursue - I never meant clinging and going and text rampage to the point it drives her crazy. I would do it slowly and steadily. A lonely woman at one point wants to feel deserved. Whether it is me or someone else time will tell. If its someone else i will let go off with less pain.
And definitely i value all your inputs. Sometimes we need to follow certain things in a non-conventional way, regardless of outcome.
Steve85, Its straightforward. My spouse knows that I have developed the kind of ability to let go off her. In the last 6 years i was an NGS clinging to her. By going dark/ NC I have proved, I dont have to have her all the time. Now she is a bit curious how i manage. And she is surprised as well that I have let her go that far. So if I have a glimpse of hope of talking to her again, and slow pursuit, without ANY HOPES or EXPECTATIONS from my end, I am ready to accept the outcome either ways!
Came here to bring the discussion to your own thread Nut, so its not flooding Ballast's
I have nothing else to say in regards to your tactics and your sitch, as i have given my opinion, and that isnt going to change.
Best of luck, i will be watching your sitch to see how it goes. I do hope your strategy works out for you.
Maika - I am not trying to be argumentative or giving wrong inputs. I agree that I am a newcomer and may not be as experienced as many of the forum members like you are.
All I can say is every stitch is different. The timelines for NC/Dark are different. Spouse expectations for a MR is different. In all cases the spouse is wanting to leave. Some may reconcile and many usually never. Because this depends on the mindset and the actual MR and how it went through all the time. NC/ going dark is a very subjective approach. Lets assume for discussion purposes, if you had a fight with your wife and you went dark for 6 months, when you contact her back, she will usually remember the last state you left her with the argument and miseries and she will question you on that. However, during those 6 months, if you confidently approach her with NO expectations, listen and empathize her and hear her heart, that builds / bridges the communication. All i say is keep No expectations, just listen to her. You dont need to do NC / Dark for long time. Be confident in every approach without being needy. If she says get out after a fight respect her feelings and go and don't cling on. My wife was asking for space, and she felt that in house space was not enough. Hence she moved out. Now she is feeling lonely and deserted. Yes she is still angry with me. But at the same time, she feels i abandoned and ignored her. That is a small sign which shows she had enough space - "do something". Now that is the tricky part on how the LBH can handle. He can do something by going further dark / NC or he can emotionally connect with her and empathize her feelings. All i can tell you is that at this time the WAW had no idea what she wants and still in a dilemma. By you being confident and show what you can do to bridge the gap, it shows your strength as a man of courage. Your WAW will appreciate it inside of her although she may scream at you outside. If you listen to her shouts and her scream and become afraid and give up, your WAW thinks that you don't want her. Allow her heart to release the frustration. Who knows may be she can open up more or may be never. You all have criticized me on the other post of being needy, selfish, stubborn and all this. Yes I may have all these qualities. But without these qualities, I still have the courage to stay strong and expect the worst. I really don't care if anyone wants to listen to my advice as a newcomer. But I can tell you one thing. No one is more better than understanding his/her own situation than you. I may give you 100s of advices, but you know your stitch best. I know my stitch best and so does ballast his. So despite all the suggestions in this forum, One thing stands out. You do what is best for your stitch based on your current circumstances and be strong and confident!
SOrry Nutcrac but this is all very dangerous territory. The vets here call what you are suggesting and what you are doing in your own sitch as the illusion of action.
WAWs/WWs want space. You have to give it them. In my own sitch I didn't make any headway until I let go to get her back. We are now in piecing and R. Detachment is about giving space. It is about doing the opposite of what your instincts tell you.
Doing nothing is sometimes the best thing to do! I've told others in these sitches, pressure and pursuit will result 99.5% of the time in the WAW/WW running the other direction. Only when you remove all pressure and pursuit, and only when you start detaching will they start taking steps toward you. But even DBing right only gives you a 50/50 chance, and it takes time!
Where LBS go wrong is in getting impatient, giving up DBing, pursuing and pressuring. This pushes the WAS/WS away faster than anything. Especially when you DB'd well and started making progress.
Also: "Your WAW will appreciate it inside of her" this is simply not true. Pursuit and pressure does not make her appreciate it inside, outside, over or under or anywhere else.
Steve85,
I respect your advice, I have taken many of your suggestions and even applied it. I have also seen that you strongly believe in Sandi2's techniques. For example you are simply assuming my WAW is a WW. This is not the case! She is true to herself and I know her well. You should really go back and read many of Sandi2's post for my situation and how her suggestions and her opinion is different from you and many other experts in this forum.
Agreed sometimes doing nothing is the best thing to do. However, Will you do it forever?
I am doing none of the negative things here. I am not giving up DBing, I am not pursuing her, nor pressuring her. In regards to the withdrawal decision, I am standing my ground. And I am just changing the process of going into limited contact vs being dark. I expect to maintain friendly contact and try to build the emotional connect. But however I don't expect to be friends with her forever!
SHowing up at her place with sweets is pursuit AND pressure. Sorry, but I won't hijack this thread.
I will respond to false statements you make then in other people's threads:
"I want to be very clear with my position here - I AM NOT AGAINST DBing. ALL I AM SAYING IS THE STRATEGY FOR DBing SHOULD BE DIFFERENT FOR WW vs WAW. ALSO I AM NOT SAYING PURSUING FULLY IS THE WAY TO GO. YOU NEED TO GET THAT INTO YOUR THICK HEAD. "
This is wrong. The overall approach to WAW and WW is the SAME. Detach. 180s. GAL. Be the best spouse you can be. NONE OF THAT CHANGES!!!!
There are a few differences. WWs need tougher love. They need to be kicked out of the MBR if they are cheating. You do not validate their feelings if their feelings are disrepectful.
Other than that the approach is THE EXACT SAME.
I do not assume a WAW is a WW. I've said dozens of times on this board that not all WAWs are WW!! However, WWs come in many different flavors, and sandi2 will corroborate that herself. Many are in EAs and PAs. Others are into partying and acting like they are half of their age. Others are full on GGW.
But regardless. Detachment. 180s. GAL. Be the best you can be. And when the situation demands it (like when a WAW LEAVES the marital house), LRT!!
Steve85, I know my wife better. She has too much anger. The sweets thing does not show that I am pursuing. Do you think just by taking sweets to her would have changed the situation while i was actually thinking of a TRO in my case? It is just a normal greeting gesture in our culture. Nothing of a pursuit.
You clearly point out the differences of WAW vs WW. That is what I am talking as well. Sometimes a WAW also needs tough love if she is disrespecting you too much. In my case it warrants. Only for a while. And then you may have to tame them distantly like a lion in a circus. This takes patience and practice.
LRT is something that i have been following all the while. And now the only change that I am doing is just limited contact rather than a full dark zone. I have not deviated anything seriously from the normal process of DBing. A few changes here and there. Mistakes are expected to be done by LBH. and everything cant go smooth. There will be hiccups here and there.
Came here to bring the discussion to your own thread Nut, so its not flooding Ballast's
I have nothing else to say in regards to your tactics and your sitch, as i have given my opinion, and that isnt going to change.
Best of luck, i will be watching your sitch to see how it goes. I do hope your strategy works out for you.
Thanks OrangeK. I appreciate that. All i am saying is i am just like any other LBH here. We are all pretty much in the same boat. Your opinion and advice is appreciated. In fact I don't have much hopes in my situation as well. I admit it. At the same time, I wish to set a timeline to the whole thing so this does not drag ON forever. So hoping to see how that goes.
NC - My W never raged at me, never yelled at me, never disrespected me in front of my girls, didn't do a lot of things that you read about on this board. Make no mistake though she was done. She was a respectful WAW/WW in that sense but she was done. She went about it the nice way. She killed me with kindness and in many respects I fell for it. I moved her out of the house into an apt, I gave her money from time to time, I moved her from her apt into her permanent residency, I helped her pick out TV's for her new place, she would invite me out to dinner and all the while I thought maybe there was some hope, that maybe she was moving closer, I had no proof of OM so maybe she was starting to come around.
Two week ago she told she had a BF and they are now exclusive, she had been dating since about 3 months after she moved out, and just got a boob job on Monday.
Stay dark and go NC.....if she wants to return to the MR and work on it she will let you know.
I would also not set a timeline......you will know when your ready emotionally. It took my EW 8 months from the time she moved out to tell me she wanted a D. I firmly believe it took her that long to find her current BF and I was plan B all along. She just kept everything a secret from me and since we were separated I never snooped.
Sorry to hear that Joseph9! But I can tell you one thing for sure. Your wife had was not in a dilemma when she left you. She was very clear of her mindset that she is going to move on 100% and not going to come back. I dont think there was ever a plan B in her mind.
However my wife's situation is slightly different. She plans on being a single woman for a long time to come, 2-3 years down the line, and possibly wants to adopt a kid. At this time she is very confused. Hence she is having second thoughts. When she met my friends she did disclose although I was a great person in her life, she can never have me as her husband. In fact If my wife says that she met a new person, I will be very happy for her. I will wish her luck and move on. I am no one to stop her. At least I am hoping that she could disclose me that info sooner unlike most other WWs who cheat here.
She plans on being a single woman for a long time to come, 2-3 years down the line, and possibly wants to adopt a kid.
My EW told me she had no desire to ever get MR again and that dating and being with another man was not even on her radar.
You can not believe anything they say only actions.
NC,
It seems a major hurdle you need to clear is believing everything your wife is telling you.
"Believe nothing they say and half of what they do"
you need to assume she is lying to you man, and i can tell you based off of the things you have posted that she said, she IS lying to you. Often, and blatantly. She tells you
"i dont plan on dating for 2-3 years" and you believe that?
NC,
It seems a major hurdle you need to clear is believing everything your wife is telling you.
"Believe nothing they say and half of what they do"
you need to assume she is lying to you man, and i can tell you based off of the things you have posted that she said, she IS lying to you. Often, and blatantly. She tells you
"i dont plan on dating for 2-3 years" and you believe that?
It could be manipulative or a straight lie. You never know. It appears that way, Yes. But as of now she does not have anyone in her heart. She is just too broken hearted. I think she needs to heal from it first, which itself will take a long time.
Like some of the behavior about her, I posted it in your thread. And she does have some BPD, narcissistic qualities. However, you just cant treat them with medication. If she is going through so much of pain now, she does not have the proper mindset to even give her own life a chance to move on. That is where some level of emotional connection is required. Rather than abandoning her. It could be like meet her sometime once in a while, just be stringent with the time, meet at your own terms and plan to leave first. You can be emotionally safe with no expectations. She can also think over and keep safe. And leave the rest to faith!
She plans on being a single woman for a long time to come, 2-3 years down the line, and possibly wants to adopt a kid.
My EW told me she had no desire to ever get MR again and that dating and being with another man was not even on her radar.
You can not believe anything they say only actions.
Could you tell me if your wife was married before? Was this your first marraige? Had she dated others before your marraige?
But as of now she does not have anyone in her heart. She is just too broken hearted.
you dont KNOW that, that is what SHE told you, part of HER narrative. I would be inclined NOT to believe it for that exact reason.
I think she needs to heal from it first, which itself will take a long time.
Like some of the behavior about her, I posted it in your thread. And she does have some BPD, narcissistic qualities. However, you just cant treat them with medication.
No, if that IS the case she needs IC, which you will never talk her into doing. She must make that choice herself.
If she is going through so much of pain now,
Her "I am in so much pain" is being used to distract you from her deception i think. She is playing on the fact that you care, that you are nice, she knows this will distract you from looking further into things. Be cautious NC, i honestly think you are LETTING her manipulate you.
If you have researched BPD, NPD and other such things you know what the best action is for you.
NO CONTACT. everything about NPD emotional abuse syas cut ties, go NC, and keep it that way.
So if you ARE being emotionally abused, and you need to go NC, or the cycle will just continue.
she does not have the proper mindset to even give her own life a chance to move on.
Is that what she is telling you?
That is where some level of emotional connection is required. Rather than abandoning her. It could be like meet her sometime once in a while, just be stringent with the time, meet at your own terms and plan to leave first. You can be emotionally safe with no expectations. She can also think over and keep safe. And leave the rest to faith!
I still feel 100% She is using your kindness to make you think she is the "Injured Princess" to keep your guard down, acting the victim is classic emotional manipulation.
She wants you to pursue because she wants to keep you in the cycle.
This doesnt mean she wants you, the MR, to R or any of that.
Im really not trying to be a jerk here NC, but i think you are LETTING her lead you on, manipulate you, and believing her narrative as to whats going on.
Shes playing you man. HARD.
First MR for both of us and she had dated others before.
First MR for both of us and she had dated others before.
Could it be the fact that she had a MLC issue and compared you with her first dating boyfriends. I think she wanted to renew her life with a new man. She must have just got bored of you like my wife.
I don't think it had anything to do with a previous boyfriend but she said she was bored, was not happy, said she was not content and didn't love me any more. So if there is such a thing as a MLC she would fit the category. We had never talked or discussed D before and then 1 day out of blue says she is done and 3 weeks later moved out.
But as of now she does not have anyone in her heart. She is just too broken hearted.
you dont KNOW that, that is what SHE told you, part of HER narrative. I would be inclined NOT to believe it for that exact reason.
OrangeK. This i can tell you 100%. when we were in home, I was also doubtful and at times, I had intentionally spied on her Electronic media. She does not. She in fact watches a lot of women Empowerement videos and prefers to be single. She has her cousin, brother and many others who are divorcees and support her. That is the issue here. I am not saying she won't marry or something. Down the line she will marry someone. It will take a while I know. I think she needs to heal from it first, which itself will take a long time.
Like some of the behavior about her, I posted it in your thread. And she does have some BPD, narcissistic qualities. However, you just cant treat them with medication.
No, if that IS the case she needs IC, which you will never talk her into doing. She must make that choice herself.
You are right. She will never ever agree to that. In fact she will say that I need a psychiatrist rather than her. If she is going through so much of pain now,
Her "I am in so much pain" is being used to distract you from her deception i think. She is playing on the fact that you care, that you are nice, she knows this will distract you from looking further into things. Be cautious NC, i honestly think you are LETTING her manipulate you.
She knows that. I definitely had a NGS issue throughout the marriage. It won't distract me. To tell you frankly, I am in touch with other girls and I enjoy life as well. Of course I have my wife in my thoughts. My wife also knows that I can charm any other woman easily. The problem she is leaving me is because - she has a low self esteem. Ours was a SSM issue. She thinks she is not beautiful enough to attract me. As a matter of fact, Why will any woman stay with her spouse in such a marraige? If you have researched BPD, NPD and other such things you know what the best action is for you.
NO CONTACT. everything about NPD emotional abuse syas cut ties, go NC, and keep it that way.
So if you ARE being emotionally abused, and you need to go NC, or the cycle will just continue.
Yes thats right. But there are research articles that tell you that NPD can be cured if the right kind of emotional therapy can be applied. Yes Narcissists can change. Extremely low possibility. However, it depends on how you can manage it. she does not have the proper mindset to even give her own life a chance to move on.
Is that what she is telling you?
Nope. Her actions are showing that. She was very very lonely and depressed when I saw her. She does her arts and crafts sitting lonely. She is spending the kind of like that I used to spend when I was alone in my marital home. That is where some level of emotional connection is required. Rather than abandoning her. It could be like meet her sometime once in a while, just be stringent with the time, meet at your own terms and plan to leave first. You can be emotionally safe with no expectations. She can also think over and keep safe. And leave the rest to faith!
I still feel 100% She is using your kindness to make you think she is the "Injured Princess" to keep your guard down, acting the victim is classic emotional manipulation.
She wants you to pursue because she wants to keep you in the cycle.
This doesnt mean she wants you, the MR, to R or any of that.
Like I said she could be. Just imaging yourself in your wife position and you taking advantage of a nice person and repaying back with abuse? That guilt feeling even for a BPD / NPD is difficult to handle. Also I am not going to be in that cycle for long. I have the ability to move on. At this time that is not what I want and that is the only reason I am sticking to this stitch.Im really not trying to be a jerk here NC, but i think you are LETTING her lead you on, manipulate you, and believing her narrative as to whats going on.
Shes playing you man. HARD.
Like I said earlier. She could be playing on me. Trust me, If i was being played so hard by her, she would have been nice , try to reconcile, agreed to MC, be very manipulative and finally left me. But her anger shows that she does have some hidden feelings somewhere. And she cant see the light of it.
I don't think it had anything to do with a previous boyfriend but she said she was bored, was not happy, said she was not content and didn't love me any more. So if there is such a thing as a MLC she would fit the category. We had never talked or discussed D before and then 1 day out of blue says she is done and 3 weeks later moved out.
My wife said the very exact things that you mentioned above - bored, was not happy, said she was not content and worse never loved me since marriage!
Also woman have this weird thoughts , where they have decided this fact years before and still live with you as if nothing happened. And when the day BD is dropped, you are in shock. For them its a long gone thing. Unfortunately that is what happened in your stitch and some others like mine triggered by an external source like family fights etc.
REPOSTING SINCE PREVIOUS POST WAS CASCADED WITHING WINDOWBut as of now she does not have anyone in her heart. She is just too broken hearted.
you dont KNOW that, that is what SHE told you, part of HER narrative. I would be inclined NOT to believe it for that exact reason.
OrangeK. This i can tell you 100%. when we were in home, I was also doubtful and at times, I had intentionally spied on her Electronic media. She does not. She in fact watches a lot of women Empowerement videos and prefers to be single. She has her cousin, brother and many others who are divorcees and support her. That is the issue here. I am not saying she won't marry or something. Down the line she will marry someone. It will take a while I know. I think she needs to heal from it first, which itself will take a long time.
Like some of the behavior about her, I posted it in your thread. And she does have some BPD, narcissistic qualities. However, you just cant treat them with medication.
No, if that IS the case she needs IC, which you will never talk her into doing. She must make that choice herself.
You are right. She will never ever agree to that. In fact she will say that I need a psychiatrist rather than her. If she is going through so much of pain now,
Her "I am in so much pain" is being used to distract you from her deception i think. She is playing on the fact that you care, that you are nice, she knows this will distract you from looking further into things. Be cautious NC, i honestly think you are LETTING her manipulate you.
She knows that. I definitely had a NGS issue throughout the marriage. It won't distract me. To tell you frankly, I am in touch with other girls and I enjoy life as well. Of course I have my wife in my thoughts. My wife also knows that I can charm any other woman easily. The problem she is leaving me is because - she has a low self esteem. Ours was a SSM issue. She thinks she is not beautiful enough to attract me. As a matter of fact, Why will any woman stay with her spouse in such a marraige? If you have researched BPD, NPD and other such things you know what the best action is for you.
NO CONTACT. everything about NPD emotional abuse syas cut ties, go NC, and keep it that way.
So if you ARE being emotionally abused, and you need to go NC, or the cycle will just continue.
Yes thats right. But there are research articles that tell you that NPD can be cured if the right kind of emotional therapy can be applied. Yes Narcissists can change. Extremely low possibility. However, it depends on how you can manage it. she does not have the proper mindset to even give her own life a chance to move on.
Is that what she is telling you?
Nope. Her actions are showing that. She was very very lonely and depressed when I saw her. She does her arts and crafts sitting lonely. She is spending the kind of like that I used to spend when I was alone in my marital home. That is where some level of emotional connection is required. Rather than abandoning her. It could be like meet her sometime once in a while, just be stringent with the time, meet at your own terms and plan to leave first. You can be emotionally safe with no expectations. She can also think over and keep safe. And leave the rest to faith!
I still feel 100% She is using your kindness to make you think she is the "Injured Princess" to keep your guard down, acting the victim is classic emotional manipulation.
She wants you to pursue because she wants to keep you in the cycle.
This doesnt mean she wants you, the MR, to R or any of that.
Like I said she could be. Just imaging yourself in your wife position and you taking advantage of a nice person and repaying back with abuse? That guilt feeling even for a BPD / NPD is difficult to handle. Also I am not going to be in that cycle for long. I have the ability to move on. At this time that is not what I want and that is the only reason I am sticking to this stitch.Im really not trying to be a jerk here NC, but i think you are LETTING her lead you on, manipulate you, and believing her narrative as to whats going on.
Shes playing you man. HARD.
Like I said earlier. She could be playing on me. Trust me, If i was being played so hard by her, she would have been nice , try to reconcile, agreed to MC, be very manipulative and finally left me. But her anger shows that she does have some hidden feelings somewhere. And she cant see the light of it.
Firstly NPD's dont experience guilt. At all. EVER.
Nor do they experience love, compassion, empathy or remorse.
I think you need to do a lot more research before you start throwing mental diagnoses around, I have heavy suspicions my Wife is disordered, but im not a shrink and cannot definitively make that call.
Secondly, as I said before I wish you the best of luck in YOUR method, i humbly disagree. I will be watching your sitch, I have been where you are at before, disagreeing and arguing with half the board. It didn't help. It wont help you.
Listen, absorb. People are here to help you in your time of frailty and vulnerability.
I dont think this path you are on will lead to success.
By the sounds of it with you talking about "charming" women and "She thinks she isnt beautiful enough to attract me", i think you need to look into an IC as soon as possible also, that is a dangerous train of thought you are on. You exhibit a lot of controlling behaviors, even here in how you type. This concerns me.
You are mind reading, making assumptions of her mindset based on what behaviors she is CHOOSING to show you.
--------------------------------
A few last questions.
In what ways can YOU grow, change and improve yourself?
What is YOUR biggest flaw?
What did YOU do to contribute to the downfall of your marriage?
Nobody is perfect, What do you do to make you an imperfect husband?
What could you do better?
In what ways can YOU grow, change and improve yourself?
I am doing a lot of GAL, trying to involve more with extra curricular activities work etc. increase my social circle.
What is YOUR biggest flaw?
I think you got one of my flaws correct. My biggest flaw within me is Controlling and manipulative. Yes my wife knows that is my weakness. And she sees this every now and then. At least now, I have reduced my controlling behavior a lot. However, my wife is also controlling and manipulative to a large extent. Hence the dance between us.
What did YOU do to contribute to the downfall of your marriage?
SSM and Trust issues. She never allowed me physically close. And we also had plenty of MIL DIL issues and families never patched. So she things the whole package (Me and my family) is bad. Due to SSM she never trusts me. She thought she Can't fix it and best is to just leave the situation. And that is what she is doing now.
Nobody is perfect, What do you do to make you an imperfect husband?
What could you do better?
Some of the missing things in me was less intimacy, less validation and loss of the physical closeness. I did not take the lead in many of my initiatives to fix the existing issues we had in our marraige. She saw that as a weakness and thought i am no longer interested in her and staying only for money (She earns more). This and many other trust issues.
I just need to be brutally honest with her no matter what. I have been doing that so far. But she still does not trust me. She thinks i am secretive and manipulative and what not. However time is the only healing factor here. And hope someday she sees me in a different way.
[/quote]
In what ways can YOU grow, change and improve yourself?
I am doing a lot of GAL, trying to involve more with extra curricular activities work etc. increase my social circle.
These are things you can do to improve your SITUATION. what are you doing to improve yourself, emotionally? What are you reading, are you seeing an IC?
What is YOUR biggest flaw?
I think you got one of my flaws correct. My biggest flaw within me is Controlling and manipulative. Yes my wife knows that is my weakness. And she sees this every now and then. At least now, I have reduced my controlling behavior a lot. However, my wife is also controlling and manipulative to a large extent. Hence the dance between us.
I see.
What did YOU do to contribute to the downfall of your marriage?
SSM and Trust issues. She never allowed me physically close. And we also had plenty of MIL DIL issues and families never patched. So she things the whole package (Me and my family) is bad. Due to SSM she never trusts me. She thought she Can't fix it and best is to just leave the situation. And that is what she is doing now.
you didnt answer the question. you just blameshifted onto your wife.
So, what did YOU DO to contribue to the downfall of your MR?
Nobody is perfect, What do you do to make you an imperfect husband?
What could you do better?
Some of the missing things in me was less intimacy, less validation and loss of the physical closeness. I did not take the lead in many of my initiatives to fix the existing issues we had in our marraige. She saw that as a weakness and thought i am no longer interested in her and staying only for money (She earns more). This and many other trust issues.
I just need to be brutally honest with her no matter what. I have been doing that so far. But she still does not trust me. She thinks i am secretive and manipulative and what not. However time is the only healing factor here. And hope someday she sees me in a different way.
I gotta be completely honest here NC,
You basically dodged or blame-shifted on almost every question i asked you.
I am very concerened about that, i asked the questions i did for a reason.
I may ruffle the feathers here, but here comes the 2x4.
Have you ever considered that you might have narcissistic traits? or Borderline traits?
You seem unwilling to accept blame, you seem to have a really hard time accepting others advice, and admitting fault.
You blame-shift and seem to enjoy arguing.
I would get yourself with an IC ASAP.
I really think an IC will help you work through YOU. Then when YOU are feeling 100%, you can focus on your MR.
Best Wishes NC, ill be in touch and watching for updates.
OrangeK,
I definitely did not dodge your questions. I guess i read too fast and respond fast which is one reason at times i dont get to the point straight. Could be my flaws as well.
Well i do see an IC once in a while. He has checked me for depression and anxiety issues and he also assured i have none of the narcissistic / borderline traits. I have no hard time accepting others advice. In fact i have been following sandi2 and few others including you and have adhered to advices. That is not the point here. And i do admit my fault. I was just explaining why and hence had to put my wife in the mix.
SSM and trust - these issues are largely contributed by me. and I am agreeing to it.
I will update this post as and when i have new info.
Do not confuse DB detaching with distancing. In your particular situation, I think perhaps your W felt that you were emotionally disconnected.....or distant. Therefore, don't give the impression that you are cold, sullen, or angry. You can talk with her, conduct yourself in a polite, friendly manner. DB detaching means that you mentally detach from the emotional drama. Some H's become obsessed about the W and how to save their MR.......and it takes over their ability to think wisely. If you are too emotionally attached after the bomb drop, you will display unattractive qualities in a man.
Sandi2 - This above quote is an excellent piece of advice. Note that you point out "In your particular situation" and you give a slightly emotional connect based advice. I think apart from your standard 37 rules that you have listed in this forum, you should mention some pointers to LBH where their WAW has simply left due to broken heart situation or depression. From what I understand, Wyoung and I are in very similar situations. Both our wives are upset with their spouses, self destructing and not seeking an affair. Just like Wyong's wife , my wife's love tank has gone empty too and shut down pretty much all lines of communcation. How do we ever emotionally connect to them without us reaching out to them?
Nutcrac, you are one stubborn dude!
You are going to keep on until you get the answer you want, aren't you? LOL
The problem is you have no idea of the real reasons your W left. You have words and one of sandi's rules is BELIEVE NOTHING THEY SAY. The WAW RARELY RARELY RARELY says whats true. There are hundreds of reasons why they do this. To let you down easy. To spare your feelings. To make things go away faster. To end the current conversation. Because their culture says you show respect even when you don't want to. ETC ETC ETC
But sandi gave you the answer in the quote: "DB detaching means that you mentally detach from the emotional drama. Some H's become obsessed about the W and how to save their MR.......and it takes over their ability to think wisely. If you are too emotionally attached after the bomb drop, you will display unattractive qualities in a man."
And yes trying to reconnect with a WAW IS unattactive.
Ok I give up. You are right. I dont want to argue on this matter. All i am saying is there has to be some form of a communication connect with the WAW. Else my wife thinks, I have moved on and become emotionally distant. That is not acheived by keeping NC or going dark. Again I want to say communication = limited NC.
Else my wife thinks, I have moved on and become emotionally distant.
Relevant Rules from Sandi's 37 -
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the
spouse completely off!
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
32. Do not believe anything they say and 50% of what they do. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes
----------------------------------
Actually glad I am posting this. It is reminding me of shortcomings with the 37 rules i can improve on myself.
Again you are using detached and distant interchangeably. And your W has already said she wants nothing to do with you. Why would you initiate conversation? Also I think you have the wrong idea of NC and dark. It isn't that you don't respond, you don't initiate.
YOU ARE THE LIGHTHOUSE. Ships come to you, you do not go to them. Your WAW thinking you've moved on is the only chance you have at getting her back. Pursuit. Pressure. Showing up at he place with sweets pushes her farther away.
Nuf said.
Again you are using detached and distant interchangeably. And your W has already said she wants nothing to do with you. Why would you initiate conversation? Also I think you have the wrong idea of NC and dark. It isn't that you don't respond, you don't initiate.
YOU ARE THE LIGHTHOUSE. Ships come to you, you do not go to them. Your WAW thinking you've moved on is the only chance you have at getting her back. Pursuit. Pressure. Showing up at he place with sweets pushes her farther away.
Nuf said.
Steve85 - This is esactly what I am talking about. She will never come if I don't have the emotional connect with her. She feels i am cold, sullen and distant. Look at Sandi2's post. Not everything WAW says can't be beleived. I am of course detached. What a strong man does? He offers extends his hand (Not begging pleading or chasing). If she says no. Walks away. And keep that emotional connect once in a while so that my wife knows that I still value her. At least I know my wife. In my case, she already is thinking in her mind - I have moved on and there is no point in waiting for him. Right now, I am giving a signal to her indirectly communicating that I have the ability to move ON, however I can wait for you if you decide to change your mind. My wait is under my control.
OrangeK - Again, Sandi2 says, you don't need to apply all the rules if they are not pertaining to your situation.
Ok, literally every time i have offered advice or opinions you flat out dismiss them, without even attempting to engage in a meaningful back and forth dialogue. Best of luck NC.
12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
Sandi2 and others - I wanted to specifically understand and elaborate this rule from your prespective.
I know that this is a situation where some depressed, broken heart WAWs take it otherwise. They simply want you to move on so they can happily go about what they wish to do in their next phase of life. I feel the WAW should not get too much of a hint that we have 100% moved on. They should get an impression, that we have the ability to move on and we will be ok, but if they wish to come back, we still can allow them. Any suggestions?
Ok, literally every time i have offered advice or opinions you flat out dismiss them, without even attempting to engage in a meaningful back and forth dialogue. Best of luck NC.
Orange K - lol! I like your fervor. I have posted some thoughts on one of the rules above. Not shutting down anyone. Feel free to give your thoughts. Stand in mine or Wyoung shoes and view our situation from our perspective.
12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
Sandi2 and others - I wanted to specifically understand and elaborate this rule from your prespective.
I know that this is a situation where some depressed, broken heart WAWs take it otherwise. They simply want you to move on so they can happily go about what they wish to do in their next phase of life. I feel the WAW should not get too much of a hint that we have 100% moved on. They should get an impression, that we have the ability to move on and we will be ok, but if they wish to come back, we still can allow them. Any suggestions?
My suggestion. STOP READING INTO THE RULES THINGS YOU WANT TO BE THERE!
She won't believe you have REALLY moved on unless she believes you have 100% moved on! This is a ridiculous question.
"Does my W believe I really love her if I only love her 80%?"
"Am I still a man if I am only a man 90%?"
"Will my WAW comeback if she thinks I've only moved on 75%?"
LOL
My suggestion. STOP READING INTO THE RULES THINGS YOU WANT TO BE THERE!
She won't believe you have REALLY moved on unless she believes you have 100% moved on! This is a ridiculous question.
"Does my W believe I really love her if I only love her 80%?"
"Am I still a man if I am only a man 90%?"
"Will my WAW comeback if she thinks I've only moved on 75%?"
LOL
This is what I understand from Moving ON - Ability to carry on with One's life with or without WAW. So when I move ON, either I can proceed single or I can go on and start dating someone else. If my wife sees that I have started dating someone else, it is a good sign for her to cut me off from her life. Mine is a "loss of love" situation. This is what she will be thinking in her mind -" I was either ways unattractive to my spouse, he chose his new life partner. This affirms my decision."
Ok, literally every time i have offered advice or opinions you flat out dismiss them, without even attempting to engage in a meaningful back and forth dialogue. Best of luck NC.
Orange K - lol! I like your fervor. I have posted some thoughts on one of the rules above. Not shutting down anyone. Feel free to give your thoughts. Stand in mine or Wyoung shoes and view our situation from our perspective.
^^^ this proves you havent read mine hahaha.
Ok, literally every time i have offered advice or opinions you flat out dismiss them, without even attempting to engage in a meaningful back and forth dialogue. Best of luck NC.
Orange K - lol! I like your fervor. I have posted some thoughts on one of the rules above. Not shutting down anyone. Feel free to give your thoughts. Stand in mine or Wyoung shoes and view our situation from our perspective.
^^^ this proves you havent read mine hahaha.
OrangeK - I have read your stitch. However, I strongly beleive your wife's mental situation and influence from MIL is making things worse in your situation. Well In fact i was in a similar situation, however, My In laws are still in favor of marraige although with apprehension. My wife is the culprit here. But that is what I have to live with.
My suggestion. STOP READING INTO THE RULES THINGS YOU WANT TO BE THERE!
She won't believe you have REALLY moved on unless she believes you have 100% moved on! This is a ridiculous question.
"Does my W believe I really love her if I only love her 80%?"
"Am I still a man if I am only a man 90%?"
"Will my WAW comeback if she thinks I've only moved on 75%?"
LOL
This is what I understand from Moving ON - Ability to carry on with One's life with or without WAW. So when I move ON, either I can proceed single or I can go on and start dating someone else. If my wife sees that I have started dating someone else, it is a good sign for her to cut me off from her life. Mine is a "loss of love" situation. This is what she will be thinking in her mind -" I was either ways unattractive to my spouse, he chose his new life partner. This affirms my decision."
Your sitch is no different than anyone else's. You are splitting hairs with this "love loss" and "WAW vs WW" garbage. But you will continue to go down that path.
Please for the sake of others' and their sitch, please keep these anti-DBing theories confined to your own thread. The recipe for every sitch is still:
GAL, 180, detachment, and being the best you can be.
My suggestion. STOP READING INTO THE RULES THINGS YOU WANT TO BE THERE!
She won't believe you have REALLY moved on unless she believes you have 100% moved on! This is a ridiculous question.
"Does my W believe I really love her if I only love her 80%?"
"Am I still a man if I am only a man 90%?"
"Will my WAW comeback if she thinks I've only moved on 75%?"
LOL
This is what I understand from Moving ON - Ability to carry on with One's life with or without WAW. So when I move ON, either I can proceed single or I can go on and start dating someone else. If my wife sees that I have started dating someone else, it is a good sign for her to cut me off from her life. Mine is a "loss of love" situation. This is what she will be thinking in her mind -" I was either ways unattractive to my spouse, he chose his new life partner. This affirms my decision."
Your sitch is no different than anyone else's. You are splitting hairs with this "love loss" and "WAW vs WW" garbage. But you will continue to go down that path.
Please for the sake of others' and their sitch, please keep these anti-DBing theories confined to your own thread. The recipe for every sitch is still:
GAL, 180, detachment, and being the best you can be.
Don't call any of my above points as Anti- DBing. If you want to have a constructive feedback, go ahead. Else Agree to disagree. And I am pretty sure, If you say WAW is same as WW, your concept is garbage. Ya i could have a lot of similarities to other situations, but sometimes, you need to incorporate certain LLs depending on what your spouse admires to. If its done in a consistent way, it may work. Again there is no straightforward approach anyways. You also agree DBing is also a 50-50 possibility.
GAL, 180 detachment are the things I am doing as well. And I am not against it!
Wow, you really read your own understanding into a lot of things Nutcrac. This will be my last post in your thread:
I never said there was no difference between WAWs and WWs. Just that you still cannot pursue or pressure either one, and you need to focus on detachment, GAL, and 180s.
And for the 6th time, showing up are her place with sweets, when she clearly doesn't want you there is NOT GALing, 180ing nor DETACHMENT.
DBing is 50/50. Anti-DBing is 99% to fail. I truly hope for your sake that you are in the 1%. Good luck my friend.
Nut - if you pursue and give sweets or whatever to a spouse that wants nothing to do with you it will make you look weak and pathetic. Why would you want to do this for someone that has made it clear that they want nothing to do with you?
Don t call any of my above points as Anti DBing.
If you want to have a constructive feedback, go ahead.
Else Agree to disagree. And I am pretty sure, If you say WAW is same as WW, your concept is garbage. Ya i could have a lot of similarities to other situations, but sometimes, you need to incorporate certain LLs depending on what your spouse admires to.
If its done in a consistent way, it may work.
Again there is no straightforward approach anyways.
You also agree DBing is also a 50/50 possibility.
NC, I think you need to take a step back and ask yourself what you want from these forums. You are VERY hard-headed. You have your own notions of what you think will work in your particular sitch, and when people point out your notions are at odds with DB ing (which they are I assure you) you get extremely offended and defensive and go on the attack. I suspect this attitude may be a huge part of why you ended up here to begin with and it is something you should really consider doing a 180 on.
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand they listen with the intent to reply. Stephen R. Covey.
This is you. READ TO UNDERSTAND, NOT TO REPLY.
Oops sorry Cadet, I copy/ pasted a quote into that last post and apparently it had the dreaded post-blanking-punctuation in it!
For the Nth time. Don't keep bringing out the sweets thing. Its a normal tradition for anyone to visit to take something as a gift to their home. Rejecting what i got is nothing. LEAVE IT AT THAT!!!
I am not constantly talking to her and chatting with her like love birds. Keeping in touch with her once in a while. Not pursuing or anything. I am minding my own business. If she wants to respond, she can, if she doesn't want to respond, fine by me too. THAT IS DETACHMENT! And going DARK is not. That is what I learnt.
In fact I will give you another update. You guys can lash out more if you want, call me hard-headed and stuff and keep criticizing me. So this is what happened -
I went to her place (She stays an hour away now) and knocked at her door thrice. I was confident in my tone and stood like a pillar (Not a weak pillar like you guys keep telling me) She did not open the door for 5 min. After 5 min she opened the door. I patiently stood there. (Yes she wanted me to go away)
Her: She said the same things, at this time we cannot be discussing anything related to divorce. And you cannot be coming like this uninformed. Our relationship is over.
Me: "I did not come here to discuss anything. I just wanted to take a casual walk with you."
Her: "NO I don't want to take a casual walk with anyone".
Me: "Fair enough, I respect your feelings. I will be waiting down for some more time. If you are interested let me know. If not thats ok and I will leave".
Her: No I clearly don't want to take a walk with you at this time.
I bid her bye. She closed the door and I was walking away. While I was walking away, she opened the door again.
Her: "If you have anything to discuss you can come inside and talk about it.
Me: I have nothing to discuss. Just came here to take a small walk with you outside. Nothing to discuss about the relationship.
For- "I have not taken the decision yet on extending the dissolution date. I need to discuss with my lawyer and get back to you on that by Tuesday."
Me: I know that you will get back to me on that. I did not come here to discuss that issue with you. I just came here to take a short walk with you outside
Her: I am still not interested. Bye
I left and within 5 minutes left that place. While I was driving, I got a call from her -
Her: (In a heated tone) You should not be coming here like this uninformed. It makes me feel difficult. I was tired and didn't feel like coming out for a walk. And moreover I have to get up early morning.
Me: I understand. Either ways the weather was also very hot when i was out (It was late evening). And its good in a way i guess. That's ok
Her: I don't think the walk and all is something that I wish to do at this stage. Yes this was something I was expecting to do with you long ago. But it is too late.
Me: Its upto you. I understand.
Her: You need to know this is not the time to discuss anything other than divorce. At this time we should not be meeting like this.
Didn't say anything.
Her: I feel bad every time you come here uninformed, If I have to send you out like this, I cannot feel good about it. Hope you understand.
Me: I understand, Its upto you on what you want to do.
Her: Please don't try to meet me like this without informing. Its hard for me.
Didn't say anything.
Her: Take Care. Bye.
Hung up the phone. I drove back to my place. No Hard feelings. Totally fine and didn't take anything that happened to my heart or anything.
Now you guys can start lashing me out again.
Man, what does your W have to do so that you get it through your head that she doesn't want to see you! I feel so sorry for her and for you. Also, taking sweets is tradition is just your bull$hit excuse for pursuit. You don't always have to take sweets unless it's a special occasion. Don't try to sell your garbage to people who don't understand S. Asian traditions. I do and you're just making excuses for your behavior.
Dude...it is all pursuit and she wants nothing to do with you but yet you still feel like you have to do it. I think this is the second time she has told you so.
I never showed up at my EW's apartment uninvited. I never randomly showed up. What your doing sounds kind of creepy.
Why no sweets this time if it ordinary and custom? Hmmmmmmmm
Maika - Don't act as if you are a king here and know the entire S Asia. How many traditions have you known in S ASia? There are hundreds of Thousands of communities. So stop saying $hit when you are ignorant. Feel free to disagree. And stop calling BS. Excuse for my behavior?? Look at yourself. You are also in a way pursuing by being silent all the while!
Joe - Nothing is creepy about it. I am sure, if I text her she will say No. Like I said again, I am fine if she says No to me. I will walk away.
In fact If she does a TRO or call cops, I would be more happy. That will give a permanent closure. She doesn't want to do that either (sigh)
NC - I just don't understand why you keep showing up unannounced wanting to talk or walk or whatever? It is a cheeseless tunnel and you are pushing her farther away.
Why no sweets this time if it ordinary and custom? Hmmmmmmmm
Probably would have taken fruits this time
But too soon after first visit.. so ignored!
NC - I just don't understand why you keep showing up unannounced wanting to talk or walk or whatever? It is a cheeseless tunnel and you are pushing her farther away.
Its better that way Joe9. At least we will have a closure. If she wants to push me away forcefully by a TRO or similar, let her be my guest.
So you can't get closure by walking in the opposite direction? Are you trying to force her to make a decision?
I will stop acting like a King when you stop acting like a petulant child. I have no idea why you're here when you clearly go against basic DBing principles and keep arguing when you're told by the entire DB community that your approach is now that DB is about. You're completely free to do whatever you want, but why come here and keep arguing instead of listening from people who have more experience than you and have seen it all.
Also, that's a cop out excuse about knowing all traditions in S. Asia. I've had the privilege of travelling extensively in the region and I still call it my home and I have NEVER EVER seen a single community tradition where people bring sweets every SINGLE TIME. You're just making up bull$hit and you know it. Stop hiding behind cultural traditions and own up to your behaviour.
I am in no way pursuing in my sitch. Read up on all my 10 threads to understand my journey. You fail to show basic comprehension of what pursuit/distancer dynamic means, not to mention NC/Dark and all of that.
As I said, why are you here when you clearly don't want to do the DB approach?
So you can't get closure by walking in the opposite direction? Are you trying to force her to make a decision?
yes i cant get a closure that way. She definitely loves me. But her mind is split between wanting to be with me and leaving me. She needs to make a proper decision with this. Either leave me permanently and move on. I dont want to accept each other as just friends and carry on forever. That won't work.
I don't think you need to accept her as friends but please realize by you doing what you are doing she grows more and more angry with you each day. If you are ok with this then please continue but it is not helping.
I also don't see how that is respecting her feelings of wanting space and time away. To me it seems very selfish on your end.
I will stop acting like a King when you stop acting like a petulant child. I have no idea why you're here when you clearly go against basic DBing principles and keep arguing when you're told by the entire DB community that your approach is now that DB is about. You're completely free to do whatever you want, but why come here and keep arguing instead of listening from people who have more experience than you and have seen it all.
Goes the other way round with you being belligerent with me and acting like $hit. But I don't care.
Also, that's a cop out excuse about knowing all traditions in S. Asia. I've had the privilege of travelling extensively in the region and I still call it my home and I have NEVER EVER seen a single community tradition where people bring sweets every SINGLE TIME. You're just making up bull$hit and you know it. Stop hiding behind cultural traditions and own up to your behaviour.
This shows your arrogance and your ability to not accept and understand how the dynamics of how cultures work. Seeing my wife after 3+ months without anything in hand. Think about it rather than vomiting your BS. And its not some expensive gift btw, rather a $7 eatable. Stop with all your nonsensical talks about traveling and understanding the whole S Asia.
I am in no way pursuing in my sitch. Read up on all my 10 threads to understand my journey. You fail to show basic comprehension of what pursuit/distancer dynamic means, not to mention NC/Dark and all of that.
I have not read your entire stitch, but you may be handling your stitch well. In no way I am going to say you have done everything 100% as per DBing. That takes time. But my take in my situation is different.
As I said, why are you here when you clearly don't want to do the DB approach?
You still don't get it do you? Just because I am not applying all the principles of DBing does not mean that I am discarded from this forum. If you guys want to throw me out. Feel free to do it. I have no issues.
I don't think you need to accept her as friends but please realize by you doing what you are doing she grows more and more angry with you each day. If you are ok with this then please continue but it is not helping.
I also don't see how that is respecting her feelings of wanting space and time away. To me it seems very selfish on your end.
I understand your point of view on this matter. She has been angry all along. Her anger WILL NEVER Subside. I just have to live with it. I have given her a lot of space and time. When we were in house separation, I used to GAL pretty much everyday and even then she was not satisfied with the space she got. Now based on the conversations with my mutual friends, she has communicated that she kinda got too much space than needed and hence this vacuum. Yes I know the "Beleive nothing she says" is what I need to adhere. However, she needs to make a decision fast for the betterment of both. This is just screwing up both our lives and careers and doing no good, while we were supposed to be settled down in life by now with kids and family.
If you don't want a Divorce then I would not push her, you are not helping your situation.
If you do or if you don't care you have a say in this as well and you can just file yourself.
It does take time for them to not be as angry and it usually revolves around them not feeling any pressure from the LBS. It took my EW 6 months before she dropped her guard. Now she is calling me on the phone and apologizing to me.
Do what you want, it is your sitch but I think most of the advice you will get on this board is from a DB perspective so if you choose to do your own thing I am not sure you will get the positive re-enforcement or guidance you need/might be looking for.
Goes the other way round with you being belligerent with me and acting like $hit. But I don't care.
The only reason I got on your case is that you decided to give Ballast some of your BS advice on NC/Dark on his thread. If you had just stuck to your own thread and implementing whatever you thought was right for you, I have no problem with that. But I have a huge problem when newbies come and start giving contrary advice when they haven't grasped what DBing is and haven't put it into practice fully before making adjustments and tweaks. Ballast is in a precarious position as a newbie and I remember that very well. And getting railroaded by what I would call anti-DB advice can be very damaging for their healing journey.
Do whatever you want to do for your sitch, but stop sharing your theories with other newbies when yours isn't even proven. As I had said, there are 100's of sitch's over the years here where the NC/Dark method has worked for their personal healing journey and at times even being instrumental in recon. Your method is not proven.
This shows your arrogance and your ability to not accept and understand how the dynamics of how cultures work. Seeing my wife after 3+ months without anything in hand. Think about it rather than vomiting your BS. And its not some expensive gift btw, rather a $7 eatable. Stop with all your nonsensical talks about traveling and understanding the whole S Asia.
Again, you fail to understand the nuances of what I am telling you and you picked what you wanted to respond to. First - she has point blank told you she doesn't want to see you. But you show up with sweets - BIG TIME UNDENIABLE PURSUIT. When you're called out on the sweets, you hide behind culture - which is the bull$hit that I was pointing out. There is no single person in S.Asia who can say they understand all the cultures - that should be dam# obvious. What I had said is that I know cultural traditions from across the country and have travelled extensively to know that people don't bring sweets EVERY SINGLE TIME they go to someone's house. I'd love to know which cultural group in S.Asia does that, so please enlighten me. And it is not about the $ value of what you brought or after how long you visited her. You did PURSUIT - which is the entire point of discussion and you clearly don't see that.
You still don't get it do you? Just because I am not applying all the principles of DBing does not mean that I am discarded from this forum. If you guys want to throw me out. Feel free to do it. I have no issues.
Oh I definitely get it! Again, your loss of nuance here. The point of DBing is that all these approaches together lead to the good path. And you can make tweaks and changes after following Sandi's rules for a while and understanding them. And if there are anger and resentment issues, this is a loooooong ride - this is the part you don't seem to get. Your NC/DArk timeline is very tiny. Not to mention your W actually telling you she doesn't want to see you and you're not honoring that.
Like AS said - come here to learn and listen, put it into practice, and then come back and tell us what tweaks you made that made a difference. Right now you're making it worse every day.
NC.
4x8 time buddy.
Here's how i see it.
Your Wife likely has every reason to not want to see you.
You claim "She definitely loves me", you sure about that?
It sounds to me like you have been controlling, manipulative and stalking her.
Your behavior is definitely controlling, and bordering predatory.
I am thinking, you WANT her to get a RO against you.
it will help you with your "Misunderstood victim" narrative you seem to be constructing.
You are using DBing to make yourself feel like the discarded victim, when I am starting to get the picture that your wife is justifiably exiting a dangerous and abusive relationship.
You express ideas of grandiosity, omniscience, a need for control and are stubborn to a fault.
I think you have some serious control issues, and a superiority complex that is DANGEROUS.
Honestly, i think if you keep on the path you are on, you are going to end up in JAIL.
Im not going to wish you luck at this juncture, as i think you are acting as your own worse enemy.
I hope you discover peace and wisdom Sir.
Nut,
What you are doing to your W is borderline harassment, period. I can see why she needs space from you. You dont listen. She has been prabably telling you for years how she felt and you never cared to listen, you know how know because you arent listening now.
You are doing too much. I dont care what culture you are from, showing up to a person's house unannounced is rude and crazy, especially when a person is telling you they dont want or like it.
Now you are saying if she gets a TRO that will let you know her decision, you wanting her to go that far is crazy. Why does a person have to go that far to get their point across?
She is running from you and I can see why. You seem like a very scary person to be around at the moment.
You are dillusional. And I'm starting to think you need to seek out help to fix this dangerous attachment personality you are displaying. We are here to be honest with you. You seem not to like honesty or anything that goes against your flawed philosophy. That type of trait is never healthy.
Well.. here is another update for you guys to chew on.
We duscussed about a possibility of 2 month extension. WAW was ready for it, but very much insisting on some conclusion to divorce after 2 months. I said cannot decide that now and we will see after 2 months. Initially she agreed but was in dilemma all the time. I asked that we need to put some effort to bridge our communication whether or not we continue to live or separate.
She said she still has no intention or heart to continue even if we keep pushing this extension fir 6 months. Then she started misrepresenting many facts from the past accusing me tobe at fault.
I simply listened and said if you dont habe any plans to brudge the gap, in that case we need to conclude our relationship on July 6th. She said she wanted to be a wellwisher / friend after divorce. I said NO and expected both of us to move on.
She reluctantly agreed. And she asked if i had anything to say before i leave. I said we can mutually duscuss if you have stuff to say. She said she does not have anything and insisted again to say the same. I said the same and we bid farewell to each other. I know you guys think i am hot headed and all that BS. At least i am happy that we came to some kind of an agreement where we both decided to move on. 7/6 is last hopefully on this forum as well. Hopefully I don't plan on coming back here to irritate you guys.
This is went impatience and pressure doesn't work. I am very sorry for you that this was the conclusion. I really think if you had stuck to DBing and given it more time even after the D, you had a chance at R. There was no need to rush and force her to choose right then. 99.9% of the sitches here would end like this if we all pressured our WAWs to choose before they were ready.
And maybe you are hotheaded. But you're definitely hard headed.
Am I understanding this last update right that you showed up at her plane again?
See that is the problem assuming things. Its not the question of being impatient. She won't realize because of her mental imbalance issues. And even if she does her family will make her think in the other direction. So there is no point in continuing a relationship when one cannot take control of his/her mind.
And NO..i was asked to meet up with her and family. I did not show up at her place. And please stop being judgemental.
See that is the problem assuming things. Its not the question of being impatient. She won't realize because of her mental imbalance issues. And even if she does her family will make her think in the other direction. So there is no point in continuing a relationship when one cannot take control of his/her mind.
And NO..i was asked to meet up with her and family. I did not show up at her place. And please stop being judgemental.
You didn't give us that info. And based on past history it was a logical assumption.
So all of your and get problems are due to her mental problems? Maybe I missed it but this is the first time I rememberyou mentioning that. And that get family wanted her away from you (though that doesn't surprise and seems like I vaguely remember that). The last couple of weeks you insisted she was just stubborn and needed to see your confidence and "peace".
But I think tom tell yourself anything nut. Look at your reaction to feedback here. Anger and vitriol. All were ever did was try to help you. And you spit in our faces. You might want to explore that before your next relationship.
Good luck Nut. I will continue praying for you. I sincerely hope you find happiness in the future.
Finally Divorced Today!!!
So interesting that I called my friend a mutual friend of ours. it seems that my wife had called my friend yestwrday to figure out how I was doing and he said i was doing emotionally good and strong. Since i didn respond to her msgs (I did not receive any as i had blocked her number) She insisted that he go check on me and update her. My friend said only if she changes decision that she contact him.. else not to contact him. She was very adamant.. and my friend hung up call.. and then he told he will let her know after checkig on me.. since he didnt respond. She sent him text to ensure that "I come today to court and set her free" but he didnt contact her back. Anyways in the lobby today i was confident and sat there expressionless before the court hearing.
Was cheerful and confident entire divorce session in front of the judge, smiling and cracked a small joke in courtroom.
So after divorce my ex asked why i did not respond to her msgs... i said i never received any msgs
. But didnt admit that i blocked her number. Asked her to send an email once the health insurance switchover is done. She was a bit tearful. Her father was quite downtrodden. I just took my ezpass transponder from her car and left the place after bidding her good bye. No emotions but she definitely was emotional. I didnt give a F^%k the entire time.
So ends the past life and begins a new Life!!!
Ugh!
So wife tried to contact me by whatsapp and cell.. number is blocked.. so she sends me an below email
I tried to reach you through whatsapp and also through your cell but i am unable to reach you. Looks like may be you have blocked me. Thats fine, i understand. you have all right to block me but I just wanted to know what is good way to reach you and inform after my health insurance gets changee as it may take sometime. Please let me know.
Also, wanted to let you know that I have no hard feelings for u and i am always ur wellwisher. I would be happy to know how u r doing and would be happy to keep in touch. But i would not disturb u if u dont want to hear from me.
I am sorry if I have hurt u knowingly or unknowingly but i never wished ur bad.
Take care
I responded -- Email is best to inform me regarding healthcare
She sends response - ok thanks
After about 20 min another email pops up from her -
I am not in your life anymore and i know it was my decision but if u ever feel you want to talk to me or have any anything in mind u want to share or ask me whether its ur anger or anything. I will always be there.
Wish u all the happiness and success in life
Take care
What is this called - temp check and need to be ignored?
"I will always be there"... I'd quote that and then ask why she got a divorce. That doesn't add up. So be real or leave me the f alone.
"I will always be there"... I'd quote that and then ask why she got a divorce. That doesn't add up. So be real or leave me the f alone.
I know what her F&%$ing response would be. She will say she wants to be tgere as a friend and Well wisher only. I have enuf of friends and well wishers in my life. I don't need a +1 who screwed my life and wants to be a f&&^ing well wisher.
What does it take for WAWs to feel remorse? What are the signs to observe if they truly feel remorse for what they did?
What does it take for WAWs to feel remorse? What are the signs to observe if they truly feel remorse for what they did?
Nut, I thought you didn't care? This question shows you do care. You shouldn't be watching her for signs of remorse. If and when she feels any remorse she will let you know one way or another. Saying it is meaningless. My D15 apologizes to me all the time when my W makes her. It is insincere words without meaning. So for her to truly feel and express remorse is more than saying "I'm sorry". "I'm sorry" are two of the easiest words in human language to say.
What are you doing for yourself now that D is over? What are your GAL activities? What have you learned about yourself through this and changed (180s)? How are you working on detachment so that you don't wonder about these kinds of things (her remorse)? What are your plans for the future without her (or are you still sitting there waiting for her to return)?
What does it take for WAWs to feel remorse? What are the signs to observe if they truly feel remorse for what they did?
Nut, I thought you didn't care? This question shows you do care. You shouldn't be watching her for signs of remorse. If and when she feels any remorse she will let you know one way or another. Saying it is meaningless. My D15 apologizes to me all the time when my W makes her. It is insincere words without meaning. So for her to truly feel and express remorse is more than saying "I'm sorry". "I'm sorry" are two of the easiest words in human language to say.
What are you doing for yourself now that D is over? What are your GAL activities? What have you learned about yourself through this and changed (180s)? How are you working on detachment so that you don't wonder about these kinds of things (her remorse)? What are your plans for the future without her (or are you still sitting there waiting for her to return)?
Steve85,no i am not waiting for her. The reason I asked that question was because, she sent me a blatant email (above) after divorce after failed attempts to contact me over phone and whatsapp(i have blocked her everywhere) as if she wanted to show some kinda concern that she cares for me. I very well know her email is also self centered and just a temp check.
I didnt reapond more than what was required. Hence i just asked that question in this forum out of curiousity. Regarding my GAL, i am way ahead and working on my betterment for everything i do on a daily basis. I have been busy although once in a while i do remember the past.but i am quite free and peaceful and taking things as they come.
Nutcrac, I see this was related to her email. Her email was more than just a temp check. It was a guilt-ridden piece of garbage. Your WAW, as most do, is feeling guilty for turning your world upside down. Note, this is NOT remorse. It just goes against the nice girl image she has of herself so she is trying to alleviate this.
Now when people ask about you she will say "I tried to remain friends but he wants nothing to do with me now." As in it is your fault that you aren't friends. It is a game. It is a joke. It is her trying to reconcile destroying your MR with her image of herself being "innocent".
I would ignore all emails short of emergencies from her in the future. You did the right thing blocking her everywhere else. It is really makes me sick to my stomach that she is pulling these tactics. If this is who she is then you are way better off without her.
Steve85, thanks and that's what i thought - a piece of garbage. And this is the person I have dealt with for the past 6 years. A person without remorse, with bipolar and narcissistic qualities. Forget guilt. She does not know what she is doing the next minute with her severe mood swings. One minute she is all good, the next minute severe rage for no reason. She needs to be left alone. Hence I was all the while confused angry & irritated. To some extent even now.
Anyways, I will continue to block her probably email as well going forward. So its in fact easier for both of us to move on!
I hope she just realizes this and does not contact me again after the policy change email.
Ugghhhhh!!!!
Again same $hit.. ex calls me on my number all though it was blocked (blocked calls go to Vm) and leaves me a VM requesting me to call back as she has some health insurance question she needs to get clarity on. I did not respond to it for several hours. She then sends me an email asking me to call her back.
Ex:I had some question regarding insurance. Can u please call me? Thank you
Me: please send me the Q by email.
Ex: I wont distrub your peace, casually wanted to speak and ask some insurance question
Me: Its better we communicate through email going forward.. send ne your question here please
Not sure what they get out of doing this $hit to the dunpees..
Got another email response from my ex saying i can stop her health insurance.
Please start a new thread. You have reached the 100 posting/reply limit for this thread. Thanks!