Previous Thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2787373#Post2787373KML - there's someone in my building who seems good who will babysit for a low $15 per hour so I'm hoping to start working with her to go to the divorce care groups.
Ginger, I should mention again that I've gone out plenty of times during the day and early evening, I just haven't done something like 6 PM - 12 AM on a Friday night or put my daughter to bed and gone out after that type of thing. My husband and I didn't have date nights after our daughter was born. She was born in his first year of residency as a physician and he was working 60 hours per week and studying for his monthly exams when he wasn't working. I was working too so that wasn't a time in our lives where we were really going out. We'd go out for lunch or for an afternoon sometimes but otherwise when we were both free we'd be doing errands and we were just drained. Then my husband got depressed, left for another woman, then he came back, then started all the excuses for not fixing the marriage - "just let me finish residency and we'll fix everything...just let me take the boards...just let me start my first month of work...let us have a break for a month where we just don't talk..." At that point he had no interest in date nights or going out.
Prior to having our daughter I envisioned us like most normal couples - enjoying our time with our daughter but still sleeping in the same bed like married people, going out on weekend nights, traveling like we'd planned, and settling into a real house instead of moving every six to twelve months. I thought my husband would help out and we'd be a team just like we'd been before having a child. None of that happened so all those hopes and dreams are gone.
Nicole I've read your story on and off.
I think rather than focusing on how those hopes and dreams are gone is start envisioning new hopes and dreams. Make real manageable modifications.
We can all look back and see things we should have done differently and sometimes couples can adapt to stress and change together but sometimes they just can't.
Start with something simple - like how you hope your daughter finds joy and friendship in her new school/activities and how you want her to have a good relationship with both of her parents... whatever that relationship will be.
Try not to define what or how your H's husband should be with his daughter. Do everything you can to enhance and support whatever is there. You are not doing this for your H or for you... but your D.
I truly get where you are at. I was there too. My son's father has never even taken him for a simple haircut. I had to do it all. That's not to say he was never around - he was but on his terms with what seemed to be minuscule to me. My son loved his father but knew I was his go to parent. There were times over the years I got asked "why doesn't my dad come to the soccer game?" and then having to fend off disappointment when his dad didn't call or just couldn't be there. I just made sure to point out the things his dad would do and the times they got together though sometimes they were indeed very few. I never did things to point out... such as "well your dad wasn't there again." It wasn't my job to judge his dad or to place my own expectations on him. I had to let him come into his own.
Eventually he did a little more with my son but it was still no where near what I felt as a parent it should be but I never complained. I was just grateful when he starting taking my son to scouts that he stuck with it - it was their one activity.
Now several years ago his dad moved many states away and he only sees our son 3 times a year. He may call once or maybe twice in the 6 months between visits. Of course Nicole you and I would be calling twice weekly to daily but that's us. We are the parent our children will rely on most for nearly everything. But, I just drove 9hr to deliver my son to his father for the next 4 weeks and my son is happy, adjusted and glad to be seeing his dad and his half siblings despite having only 2 other contacts since his last visit with his dad at Christmas Break. I did my job.. :-).
Now you are not going to change your H. Then you need to ask yourself what can you change? You can change your expectations. You can modify your hopes and dreams.
I can see you are working on becoming that strong independent woman again.
Make a list of positive things that are going on right now... this moment... do not focus on how you and your daughter have been ill lately... just note even the smallest positive point in your day.
Now try working toward new hopes and dreams. Start small and be specific and make it attainable in the next 2 weeks. Try something like "I will have an a relaxing evening with a friend". Now this evening can involve getting babysitter and going out OR it can be inviting a friend over for a light meal and conversation after said toddler is in bed.
You can do this!
Hi KitKat, it's good to hear from you! How's your situation currently? Are you and your husband still doing well together? I hope everything is going great!
Thanks for taking the time to comment. I was responding to Ginger about the hopes and dreams being gone in response to my expectations before and after we had our daughter. Thankfully I made the move to another state, found work, re-engaged with old social networks and friends, and got my daughter started in a new school recently. Communication with my husband has improved so overall everything is better now than before. I'm pursuing career and financial goals but I'm putting relationship goals on hold and just letting everything stay open-ended for the time being.
That's amazing you drove your son nine hours to see his dad. It's hard to imagine how these fathers can miss out on their kids growing up and not bother to call. It's kind of unbelievable that your son is willing to go and see a father that doesn't make more effort towards him. I hope this current visit will strengthen their relationship and help them to stay in contact more often after the trip ends. It's good your son has you as the stable parent who is committed to him full-time.
My husband is very inconsistent so sometimes it makes me sound like a liar. After everything I've said here on this thread recently, today my husband called four times, twice while our daughter was at school. He said he's been too exhausted from his short visits when he gets back to his city to keep coming for two days at-a-time so he's arranging to come for a week in two weeks and he'll spend every day with our daughter. I told him that's great but I won't mention it to her until you know if it's actually happening. He said he'll let me know. Let's see if he comes.
I believe my husband does care about our daughter and wants to stay in touch with her when he's not busy with another woman. If there's another woman in the picture then he disappears like he did from December until February. There's nothing I can do about that. Previously I would tell him what a bad father he is and try to make him feel guilty but I stopped doing that completely. Now I see that he communicates better and calls more often when there's no pressure and when I don't ask questions.
I'm hoping whatever happens we'll continue to make progress with communicating well for our daughter's sake. Thanks again for checking-in. It'd be great to hear your updates!
Hi Nicole, how have you been holding up? Hope your and your D's health is getting better with the weather outside. Is she well adjusted to the new place? Make sure you do as much as you can during summer with her, make it a summer to remember. She is at such a great age, enjoy every bit of it. And be so busy and happy that neither of you will miss your confused and unfortunate WAH
Hi Arsh, thanks for checking in. There is not much to report currently. Our daughter is adjusted well, we just need to be healthy. We're better but still a little sick. Our weekends for the summer are all booked and we have a lot going on but sometimes I think it's too much so we may need to scale back. We lived in South Florida the past few years and now we're back up North, so whereas summer there was a time to stay indoors due to the heat, here it's a time to be outdoors more often. We're busy for sure but everywhere we go, and it literally feels like everywhere, I very rarely, if ever, see another single parent. Everyone I meet, everyone I see is married. Most often I see happy couples together laughing with their babies and toddlers. Other times I see moms with big diamond rings talking about how they need to get home to make dinner for daddy. My many happily married friends tell me I don't need a man and if their husbands ever leave or cheated they divorce them right away even if it means being homeless but I know they have no idea what they're saying, especially the ones who stay-at-home and haven't worked in 10 or 20 years. It's not that easy! So my biggest struggle currently is feeling like it's just me who is a single mom. Sure there are the 50 or so members here and I'm sure there are plenty of single parents spread out around the country and world but they're nowhere to be seen in my area here or where we lived before. I guess it's the demographic group with which I belong that has a zero divorce rate or something....but it definitely requires extra strength to go out every day among all the married couples and not miss my husband terribly.
Look on Meetup for a single parents group - or start one yourself! There are definitely single parents around, trust me.
KML, the single parents meetup group in our area is currently closed and there's a waiting list believe it or not. I didn't sign up for the waiting list yet because it just seems odd that there'd be a limit to the number of people in the group. I guess there are reasons for it. I'd start a new one except we're already booked the whole summer so I wouldn't be able to organize or attend any of my own events. I do hope to meet some single parents although the bigger issue for me is just the general perception that others are better off than I, as much as I'm sure that's not true. It's just my attitude I need to adjust.
All, after I posted that updated my husband called and said his car lease is ending and it's time for him to return his car this week and pick a new one. He asked what I thought about a more expensive car. What can I really say? No? I have no idea how much money he's even earning or has. I told him I always wish for him to be happy and I hope he can get the car he wants, but I'm not in a position for him to cut back his financial support for us at this time. He was nice about it, said "ok, I'm just so stressed about the whole situation. I don't know what to do." I didn't ask any further questions. He said he'll think about it more and that was it.
This limbo period is just bizarre because I have no idea how my husband defines "the whole situation." I don't know if he's talking about the divorce process, or about supporting us financially, or if he's considering us to still be a family. I don't want to ask questions because I don't want to pursue.
I don't know why my husband needs my blessing to pick the car that he wants. I just hope he doesn't make a bad financial decision but otherwise who cares what he gets?!
I'm not sure what's the point of this message except to say I have no idea whether I'm headed closer to divorce or reconciliation at this time. I guess I have to keep waiting to find out unless I file for divorce myself first.
Nicole,
Limbo stinks. period.
I'm there with you.
The feelings you have are normal. One minute you see the road ahead as long but you see glimpses of success or something happens that makes you think they are thinking about the MR. And the next minute they are blowing up at you in full on D mode. There is no rhyme or reason. I'm very new here and do not even have a handle on my own situation, but just wanted to share that you are not alone and what you are experiencing is how this works. They have no idea what they want and no idea what they are thinking. And if they do, they sure aren't going to share it with you at this moment.
All just IMHO
JustSad, thanks for your response! It's so nice to know someone else feels the same way. I will try to post on your thread soon if I haven't already. Everything's kind of a blur lately!
After I posted earlier my husband called and then sent a text saying we need to talk urgently. He was at the dealer of my favorite car company and said he's going to lease my dream car and then in a year, when my current car lease ends, he's going to give me my dream car and then he'll get his dream car. In other words, he can't afford his dream car at this time so he's getting mine and then next year when he has more money presumably he'll get the car that he wants. He kept calling me asking about colors and options. He was happy and excited. I expressed my happiness about having this car in the future because it's made in my favorite country and it's not a car I could ever get on my own. Then at the end he was telling me how much the monthly lease costs and said hopefully he'll continue to cover the cost even after he gets another car for himself next year but if he can't afford the full cost of my car he'll ask if I can cover $x amount of dollars per month and I said that's ok.
I have no idea what's going on. I'm sure no one else here could possibly know either. Maybe he's still planning to file for divorce and he figured he'll settle for car #2 for one year and the easiest way to get what he wants is to shift that car over to me later, so none of this is a sign that he cares about me or wants to reconcile. When I look at the overall shift in his behavior since April however this is just one of many changes. I guess I'll know more when he supposedly comes for a week at the end of next week. If that happens and goes well then maybe I'll have more to report. I don't have confidence that my husband wants to fix our marriage and is willing to work for it, but I do have confidence now that I know how to communicate in a way that invokes a positive response from my husband. This is a new skill that I didn't have before. Now I know being independent, not asking unnecessary questions, sounding upbeat and positive even when things are difficult (like when we were sick these past weeks), and being more concise and decisive when we talk works. I wish I would have learned how to communicate this way years ago but I hope I can continue to improve in the future.
I do have confidence now that I know how to communicate in a way that invokes a positive response from my husband. This is a new skill that I didn't have before. Now I know being independent, not asking unnecessary questions, sounding upbeat and positive even when things are difficult (like when we were sick these past weeks), and being more concise and decisive when we talk works. I wish I would have learned how to communicate this way years ago but I hope I can continue to improve in the future.
We all have something to learn even when things look bleak. Keep up the great work! Wishing you all the best with your family!
Hi Nicole. I managed to write my sitch, I posted it yesterday. I know I took my time but I did it at last.
Your H maybe changing his mind or not, you do not really know. But you are changing yours and take that into account. Sometimes we, being male, have these undefined wife/mother relation with our Ws when taking decisions. Be aware of that too.
But if it works keep on going that way. Just continue DB.
I dont understand the car leasing part, he either wants to R and earn brownie points or this is a way of him shedding some guilt. Just tell him right now you wont be able to cover any of it, so if he can pay all the lease amount you will be fine. Hey its not just for you he is doing it for his own D too, and from what I read you have put your life on hold to get him thru med school and he is doing well for himself now. And remember until the D he is still your H, WAH yes but still married.
It is great to read you feel so confident and grounded. It put a smile on my face to read that, you are not only doing this for your own good but also setting an example for your D.
LoneWlf, thanks so much. I really appreciate it. I hope we can all report more positive outcomes down-the-road.
Neffer, I read your post on your thread and will respond to it ASAP. Thanks for your encouragement. If you happen to read this post, could you kindly clarify what you mean by undefined wife / mother relations?
Arsh, I don't understand either, but I don't want to ask any questions or seem like I care too much. The way my husband spoke yesterday was just as if we were married living our normal life. Today he called and was saying what a beautiful car it is. I think he just wanted a way to pawn the car off to me next year so he can get the one he really wants, but his logic seems to be that next year he'll be able to afford it and this year he can't. So either he's taking a gamble that we'll make money on our house if sell it or he thinks we'll be together and he won't be paying these extra thousands to support us next year. It's hard to imagine he thinks he'll be better off financially next year if we get divorced unless he just has no idea how much he'll have to pay, but I've tried to give him numbers multiple times based on what the lawyer advised. So who knows. Maybe he's not thinking at all. Maybe he's just acting based on how he feels at the moment - "I'll buy the car she wants! Then I'll buy the one I want! Win win for everyone!" I just don't know. If he comes next week as he says he will then perhaps I'll have a better sense as to which way things are headed. He might show up next week in a terrible mood and start talking about divorce again or he might now come at all. There's no way to know.
All, I do have a few questions for anyone who reads this and has followed my thread -
Is my husband a walkaway or wayward? I can't figure it out. There seems to be so much knowledge on this board about wayward wives but I can't find much about husbands. Do the same rules apply? For example is there a "No More Mrs. Nice Woman" book that wives should read and do wayward husbands leave based on lack of respect the way WW's do?
Are others here still wearing their wedding rings? When my husband asked for a divorce in January and then took his girlfriend to Dubai I stopped wearing mine. It felt like the right thing to do. On the other hand, I don't want to falsely advertise that I'm single when I'm still married.
Thanks for any input. I need to read the DB book again. I lost it when I moved last year, accidentally re-ordered the old version, and need to buy the newer version again.
Hi Nicole. Sometimes relations between W and H drift to some kind of mother/child link. Do a search of it: when men are boys and wives are mothers.
Mother/child dynamic can happen in a wide range of ways. Usually when we (males) have to make some sort of decisions we fall into patterns that end with this kind of behavior that we are not aware of.
Neffer, I see. That's interesting. I'll search more about it. I had also found something called "Madonna Whore complex" a while back that sounded like it could describe a few of the situations here on this board as well.
Are others here still wearing their wedding rings? When my husband asked for a divorce in January and then took his girlfriend to Dubai I stopped wearing mine. It felt like the right thing to do. On the other hand, I don't want to falsely advertise that I'm single when I'm still married.
I wore mine until the day a few weeks ago when I told my wife I believed she was having an affair and I would no longer be sleeping on the couch. I wore it on a necklace for a week or two but keep it in a backpack that goes everywhere with me. It's one of many things I have a hard time trusting my decision about, but felt good to actually make a decision at the time. I have some fear that my commitment to W will weaken, as hers did while not wearing her rings. I think that is part of my fear of letting go of my M in general.
Nicole, I still wear mine, I see it as a symbol of standing up for MR but may be WAH sees it as not letting go? Also, once you remove you have a lot of people asking you questions you may not be ready to answer yet, so may be it is the easy way out. Does you WH still wear his? Do you think he would notice if you removed yours?
- Arshi
STH and Arsh, sounds like it's a personal decision and there's no right or wrong. You both have good reasons for wearing or not wearing it. My husband never wore a ring - he said he didn't like it and it wasn't required in his culture which is true although now that I see this other side of him perhaps this was a red flag that he wasn't ready to settle down.
Neffer, I looked at some mother and child articles and can see how this happens. It doesn't seem this was our situation prior to having our daughter because I worked full-time and my husband stayed at home for many years and I was more like the provider and he was the caretaker and he seemed to build up resentment for that. The dynamic changed further after we had our daughter. One of the first things I remember is my husband walking around saying "I'm the biggest loser. I lost everything." He meant that instead of being the recipient of all my attention he was left in the dark. Perhaps this led him to get depressed and then have an affair but I think it was something deeper because later he kept saying "I never got to live my life. I never got to have fun (due to growing up amid non-stop war)." So ultimately it seems he left because he felt the need to date and sleep with an unlimited amount of women, go to bars and clubs and party like a teenager, and live a carefree life. What a waste. The mother / child dynamic may be just one of many problems in my case.
Hope your H face those MLC patterns he is showing. Anyway, not your monkeys now. Stay strong Nicole.
I think your interpretation is right Nicole. This is a guy who TOLD you he regretted having your daughter, and he probably WAS freaking out at that time that now he was "trapped" by fatherhood and responsibility.
Contrast that with Ginger's recent date on the Surviving part of this board. She went out with a guy whose wife left him. He has kids and he told Ginger something to the effect of he enjoyed being a husband and father and felt it was a role he was born for.
See the difference???
Are others here still wearing their wedding rings? When my husband asked for a divorce in January and then took his girlfriend to Dubai I stopped wearing mine. It felt like the right thing to do. On the other hand, I don't want to falsely advertise that I'm single when I'm still married.
Hi Nicole, my H hasn't worn his in 4.5 years so I finally took mine off and gave them back to him. Then I felt worried about it looking like I was putting myself out as single and like Arshi said I also didn't want to have to ask questions. So I bought an Enso rose gold band. It symbolizes that I'm married but that's it.
I also did some research on the Madonna/Whore complex. I wanted to look into it bc H never wanted sex with me when I was pregnant. Maybe some men simply aren't attracted to pregnant women and that's all there is to it. But I found it an interesting topic nonetheless.
Neffer, I hope so too.
KML, sure, I do see the difference. Unfortunately I never fell in love with a guy like the one Ginger's dating. I fell in love with my husband who turned out to be like this. I'm not sure if it's bad luck (there was no sign before marriage that he didn't want kids - he wanted two) or my own bad judgment. Anyway now I'm facing the consequences.
HelenaJ, that sounds like a good decision regarding the gold band. That's what I always wore as well. I do wonder about why some men are the way they are. There are so many theories but I guess in some cases in social science we'll never truly understand.
All, I really need input from anyone who's reading. I don't have much time to write but my husband called on Friday and said he was terminated by his employer. They agreed to call it a resignation but clearly it was based on unspecified performance problems. There's no severance pay. Just half a paycheck.
My husband must have called me immediately after it happened because he was still in shock. He said he'd look for temporary work while he finds a new job. He said it takes a few months to get credentialed at any new hospital.
I didn't hear from my husband again on Friday and yesterday he called twice but I was with my family. I don't know yet if he'll even be able to pay anything towards our costs in the coming month.
I'm fortunate in the sense that I have the option to switch to a full-time salaried position with one of my employers right away if needed, but due to the commute times in this area it basically means being away from my daughter from 8:00 AM until 6:00 PM on most weekdays. I know this is reality for many parents but it'll be a hard transition for us. I didn't my daughter to pay the price for my husband's bad actions.
Anyway the important point here is that if my husband doesn't wake up now, I don't think he ever will. If I were him I'd be thinking, "I lost my job. I lost my family. I'm living alone in a big house I can't afford and I mindlessly spent all the money I had. Maybe it's time to fix my life."
If he doesn't see that he has a problem then I don't know what hope there will be. As I understand, it's not that common for physicians to get fired. If it happened once it could happen again, so I'm thinking it's better to be completely self-reliant financially although I'll never be able offer my daughter the same quality of life as if my husband and I were both working ad living together.
I want to ask my husband questions about what he's planning and make suggestions but given everything else happening I'm thinking to just consider him to be no one in my life at the moment and start working full time.
On the other hand, my husband may find a new job quickly and I may be able to keep working part-time and spending more time with our daughter.
It's a tough choice. What do you all think?
I don't think it'll be constructive to say what a bad person my husband is or how things he's said or done are bad. It'd be most helpful to determine how to figure out the best way to proceed.
I'd appreciate any input. Thanks in advance!
Thank god you have the option of a good full time job - many women would not be in such s good position.
First of all - have you done the math? Compared to freelancing and working from home, does this new job truly pay better when you include the increased child care costs? Does it include benefits especially medical coverage?
If the answer is yes, I would take the job.
I know it will be very difficult but not as difficult as falling into financial ruin. In fact I suggest you also consult an attorney just to find out what your options are for protecting yourself financially. After all, you have the debt of a house which is not in salable condition and presumably has no equity.
As for why he got fired - he's an anesthesiologist isn't he?
Reasons for sudden termination of a physician like that might include:
- drug addiction (a bit of an occupational hazard in anesthesia)
- moral charges - sexual harassment, inappropriate behavior with a patient, or breaking company rules about dating somebody who works directly under you
- gross negligence - making bad medical mistakes that result in harm to patients
- unreliability - if he's just not showing up on time for shifts etc.
Generally an abrupt termination like that is for something bad that the hospital feels could cause a liability to them; otherwise it would be more like an ordinary job loss.
He probably will get another job elsewhere eventually but if he doesn't deal with whatever got him in trouble this time he will continue to have employment problems. I would make your own employment decisions assuming he may not be regularly employed.
Also - re:health insurance: if he and you were insured through his employer, you have only thirty days to either COBRA that insurance or find a new individual plan. I'd get on the right away since even if your new job offers benefits there's often a waiting period like 3 or 6 months. Don't let yourself go uninsured.
And btw I was only comparing your H to Ginger's date to remind you how abnormal your H's attitude was and that there are good men out there.
Nicole,
I am sorry to hear about that. Not having that financial support and backing to take care of your D must be scary.
I have to agree with kml, you need to take care of yourself and your D. Getting a full-time job with benefits seems like a necessity given the situation - the health insurance is a huge issue. I would get on that right away.
I dont remember the exacts of your sitch, but did you have a support agreement with your H? He has a responsibility to help support your D regardless of his situation.
Wow Nicole, that sure is an unexpected change of events! I agree with what others have said, if the numbers make sense I would take the job and become self reliant financially no matter what your H does. You can always go back to part time later if things work out favorably. Personally I would not offer any emotional support, as I see it this is part of taking responsibility for the choices he has made. I feel bad for how it will impact your D and the amount of time you get to spend with her. It will be a difficult transition like you said, but those are pretty typical hours for a full time working Mom and someday she will look back and be proud of how you stepped up to provide and take care of her. These are the moments that define us my friend. Hugs.
KML, Davide, and HelenaJ, thanks so much. I'm considering everything you all wrote. The math doesn't totally work out. Ideally I'd put my daughter in school for six hours and then a nanny would pick her up and bring her home to play with her until whenever I get home. The school charges a dollar per minute when you're late and there's a high chance of being late on any given day so a nanny would be much better, but then the total cost of school plus nanny would be over $2,500 per month which offsets a lot of the full-time income. We do need health insurance one way or another but the current insurance we have isn't that great when you're out-of-state, which we are, so we probably need to switch anyway. We're not in a position to be uninsured - there've been times in the past when I've paid $1,000 per month out-of-pocket for individual insurance just to avoid the risk of being uninsured. There are options for health insurance with or without a full-time position but it's expensive either way.
I'm not offering any special emotional support but I also don't want my husband to commit suicide so I'm being as nice as possible. Today my husband called and it was clear he's affected by the situation. He could barely talk and was choking up. He said he's looking for any job and he'll still find a way to pay our expenses although I'm not sure if that's the case.
There's a lot I wish to say to my husband to help him navigate his next steps but sadly I can't say anything. I have to just protect my daughter and myself while my husband figures out his own path.
This would be a good time for my husband to move to the state where we currently live but he said he already started applying for jobs here in the past month and hasn't heard back on anything yet. I find that hard to believe considering physicians usually get jobs easily, but perhaps he'll search more extensively now.
I guess at the end-of-the-day this is all my fault for marrying someone from overseas and sponsoring him to come here. There's just too much risk. I was in my 20's and didn't really care at the time. I figured at minimum I was helping a good person to escape a war and at best we'd have a wonderful life together each helping each other to fulfill our dreams. We were so close to that happening. It's too bad my husband chose a path that not only destroyed our lives (my daughter and I) but now his own life is destroyed as well.
I just wish there was someone who could explain everything and say "I've seen this happen and here's what the outcome will be." I believe the most likely outcome is my husband will continue to make these mistakes and I'll raise my daughter alone, struggling financially as I start over, and maybe if I'm really lucky I'll meet someone new in ten years. I wish, however, there's that small chance that my husband will realize what he's done and work to fix it. The best chance for that would have been this weekend, as he absorbs the news that he's been fired, but even when he was upset on the phone today there was still no apology or mention of wanting to fix everything.
I am very sorry for your sitch Nicole. Just do the maths and ask for legal advice as kml says. Your H must answer for his responsabilities. I know it is hard but try to stay calm and be patient. Your D needs you to be in a healthy state of mind. You have been doing well.
Sending you strength. Be strong Nicole.
Thanks Neffer. I really appreciate it. I'm doing ok since I look at it this way - if I hadn't moved to this city and started working things would be a lot worse right now.
I'm not offering any special emotional support but I also don't want my husband to commit suicide so I'm being as nice as possible.
Nicole, I understand your concern. But here is the thing, you have no control over that. HE has caused the separation. HE has caused his current circumstances. HE can choose how to handle what HE created.
Nicole, you know him better than I do, so when I say I think there is a small chance of him committing suicide I say that out of normal statistical probabilities. But please understand one thing:
IF HE WERE TO COMMIT SUICIDE IT WOULD NOT BE IN ANY WAY SHAPE NOR FORM, YOUR FAULT. WOULD NOT!
I say that because as a victim of suicide in my life, it is easy to blame yourself. But unless you have participated in the suicide, assisted in some way, it is NEVER the left behind's fault. And in your sitch there is no way you should be blaming yourself if that were to occur.
Thanks Steve. I hear what you're saying and I recognize the truth in it. I don't want to exacerbate my husband's stress level but yes he did this to himself and he didn't care one bit about the level of stress he caused me. Whatever happens, I did apologize for all of my wrongdoings in a sincere way, I moved on with my life to relieve my husband of any pressure, and I take 100% care of our daughter so he's had no burden from her whatsoever. I guess that's all I can do.
Did he give you any idea why he was let go?
KML, he didn't give any specifics but I know he was on probation and received several warnings. He's been doing things like keeping his patients waiting, leaving the hospital to go to errands and having the physicians' assistants do the work, and probably generally not having a good work ethic. I'm not sure but my guess is he had overall poor performance rather than any one incident.
Hmmmm.....continuing to do those things even after being put on probation - what do you think that's about?
I mean - this is not an ordinary job. A physician has worked so hard and so long to get there that it would be unusual for them to continue to do such things after being warned. So one has to wonder, is there an underlying drug addiction or mental illness?
Which do YOU think?
I agree with KML, that seems super strange that he wouldn't take steps to correct the issues at work before it got this far. I'm a CPA which is nowhere near what it takes to be a physician and I can't IMAGINE letting anything happen to my reputation or my certification.
KML and Helena,
I just don't know. I've been trying to understand what's wrong with my husband for years. He was almost kicked out of his residency program for similar reasons (also while he separated and was dating a nurse). He barely passed his exams. He's always been an underachiever and he's only really motivated about things that interest him like cars, clothing, home design, etc.. He has no interest in being a physician. His father made him do it and he continued on the path because he thought he'd make good money. I've always encouraged him to do what makes him happy like be a car salesman but he felt he had to be a physician.
My husband definitely has severe ADHD that's never been treated. That's a certainty. He also has depressive episodes and some signs of manic episodes although since the psychologist told me he doesn't think my husband is bipolar I'm not qualified to diagnose him with that.
My friends who are physicians usually comment that my husband is immature, not ready to grow up, or they don't know what to say at all. In some ways my husband is just ill-equipped for life here in the US. He was a student living with his parents for most of the time in his home country. He never had any responsibility. Then when he came to the US he lived with me and stayed at home studying while I worked and managed everything. Then when he started residency and we had our daughter during his first year as a resident it seems he collapsed under pressure. Suddenly he had responsibility and he couldn't handle the stress. It's like he regressed to being a teenager just wanting to date easy women, go out, have fun, and live a carefree life.
Like many people from developing countries my husband dreamed to make a lot of money and live a life of luxury here in the US. He didn't want to listen when I told him that even doctors don't really make that much money (unless they're specialists like an orthopedic surgeon).
Unless my husband is willing to recognize that he has a problem and work to fix his life I don't see much hope. I'm sorry for all of us here who are dealing with unstable spouses who went off the deep end.
Your H has a lot of unresolved issues, starting with living in an unstable home country, living up to his parents expectations, thinking he missed out on life, not taking on responsibility with his family and work, and so on.
These won't be resolved by himself and he needs to seek professional help. If he doesn't, then I don't see things getting better for him. Having those unfair expectations about living a large life and then realizing that it was all a pipe dream can be shocking. Some people use that as a reality check and work harder and get a grip on their lives. For some, it ends up with depression and blaming everybody and everything else. Looks like he's in the latter camp.
Now that you're settled and making a life for you and D, just focus on that and hopefully he can come to his senses and get help. Mental health is such a taboo, but it is so needed as part of your self-care. As you said, you can't push him in this direction and he's gotta do it himself.
The psychologist may or may not have been qualified to make a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. It sounds like that definitely might be a possibility. I remember a med school classmate who suffered a manic episode - he went to the Dean's office and insisted he should be given his degree because he already knew everything.
Then again, your H may just be an entitled narcissist. It might be useful for you to read a book about narcissists and see if it fits. Or maybe read The Sociopath Next Door.
Btw - he should be checked for G6PD deficiency. Depending on where in the Middle East he comes from and which ethnic group he belongs to, his risk of carrying this mutation may be as high as 5-10%, and rare reports have suggested a possible connection with psychosis or bipolar in some patients.
KML, the psychologist has a PhD and trained with some renowned senior psychologists but still only met my husband for two one-hour sessions so he may not be able to make a diagnosis in such a short time. I wish there could be a more definitive diagnosis. At least it'd help me to be less hurt by my husband's behavior because potentially he's not able to control it without treatment.
I've tried reading a lot about narcissists and sociopaths in the last two years. My husband doesn't quite seem to fit those descriptions. He's good at absorbing criticism and doesn't think too highly of himself since he's normally at the bottom of the class / group in terms of being a physician and also as a new American. He would often say I was smarter or better than him. He tells lies to protect others' feelings but the way he does it is consistent with how the majority of people in his country do it. He could still be a narcissist and I'm just not seeing it but the guy I dated for eight years before my husband had a false sense of grandiosity and callousness for others' feelings that led me to believe he was a narcissist (so I broke it off) whereas my husband in his normal state isn't like that at all. My husband may not have cared about my daughter and for a period of time but he normally is considerate and cares about others' except for when he gets road rage.
I haven't heard of G6PD deficiency but I tried searching it real quick. I know my husband gets neck pain when he's acutely stressed and he's complained of back pain in the past but I'm not sure about the other symptoms. Too bad I'm not in a better position to suggest he get tested. If we ever reconcile or become close enough friends in the future I'll remember this to suggest it. I do know his brother and niece both have moderate or severe anemia of some short, I believe Thalessemia but that's a totally different condition.
There are a lot of non-specific clues. You and others may wonder why I'd ever consider marrying someone like that. The version of my husband that I met in his home country was brave and noble. He was unafraid of Al Queda and supported the US troops and US presence in his country. He worked with Americans knowing the risk to his own life. He went into hospitals and distributed supplies and sometimes would spend his own money to help people who couldn't afford certain drugs or treatment. He would go home from work every day and help his mother who has Parkinson's disease. He was pro-choice and moderate and he was Muslim yet he was interested in Christianity. I don't know. We were just a good fit at that time. He was a handsome guy and helped me to navigate life in a war zone. There were many reasons to believe we had a unique connection. I vetted my husband against a lot of people, met his friends and family, tested him in various ways, and he always passed. Sometimes people just change and we can't anticipate it although I should have known the risk of bringing someone to a whole different culture.
I still wish we could salvage everything we built together as crazy as that sounds, but my husband has to get his own act together before we could even work on the marriage and even then we'd need a lot of third party involvement and years of gradual progress to have anything like a normal marriage.
Thanks KML and everyone for your input.
Nicole sounds like you have a long journey ahead of you. I see you are very intelligent in trying to figure out all the moving parts of the relationship. I hope for your sake and your family that things work out to your benefit. Blessings
Nicole - I would consider this a BIG wake up call.
Your H issues are just in your M its with life right now.
You now more than ever need a plan for you and your D. You need to get to a place where you are no longer dependent on your H for anything - emotional and financial well being will fall directly upon yourself.
You need to stand tall for yourself and your D. Long hours and commutes will suck but a roof over your head and food in your belly need to take priority. You can do this. It is within you to provide at whatever sacrifice needed for you and your D. It may not seem fair and you may get resentful of those moms who don't have to do it all but trust me you and your D will be better for it. I was essentially a single parent from the get go. I worked a demanding job 40-50hr a week. Did every single night time feeding - every Dr appt, working a full day on 3hr of sleep sometimes and I still managed to carve out significant time with my chid - important time, fun time. Many days it was just spending a longer lunch time at the daycare with my 3 month old, etc. It can be done! He was diagnosed on the autism spectrum disorder at 5yr old. I did every therapy and conselling appt - I missed nothing and was extremely proactive in working with him since the time he was 2. I was exhausted every minute, but I did it. My son is soon to be 17yr old. He is happy and so incredibly independent. He is near genius smart. Has a good group of friends. He will be attending college in 2 years.
I'm not trying to brag about myself but rather set you up that you can do this.. that you need to do this.
Your H may be tempted to move into your apt with you because that is the easiest path for him. Less work for him. You may let him because you reminiscence about your previous life together OR you have hopes for how your future could be.
Nicole - don't let your H move in with you.
Not at this point. Not until he fixes what is wrong with him. If he gets a good job even if its not in medicine - well fantastic. He is better at emotional/financial stability... well maybe. Truth be told the more Hospitals that let him go... they are all talk to each other... the harder it is to find new work. He has to address his own issues.
Truth be told Nicole that if you really stand up to take care of yourself you may not want your H in the end. You may truly see more of his flaws that you don't want to settle for. Don't mistake my speech in standing on your own two feet to mean that you don't co-parent your D. That is a separate issue. You should do everything you can to support any kind of relationship with your H and D - that is important. He may never be the parent that you are but he is still a parent and can bring something to the table that is uniquely his.
This is your wake up call - to be the strong woman that you really are. Nicole I believe you have what it takes to do this. You have to move past your M and your H. Who knows where the future is from this point. I will share a beautiful story which is a true story of how couples can and do reunite in a few days.
You can do this.
Ok Nicole, sounds like you didn't see signs of narcissism or sociopathy before his crisis. That pretty much leaves bipolar or drug addiction as likely explanations for his peculiar behavior in his larger life (which may or may not have anything to do with the marriage).
You mentioned road rage - this can be a depressive sign or could occur with mania. (My ex, who I believe has a mild shadow form of bipolar, became an aggressive driver during his crisis times.) Did he have any signs of depression or mild mania in years past? Is there any history in his family of suicides, psychosis, mania? (I remember my ex's sister, when she was primary caretaker of her four children under age 6, stayed up all night to paint a bathroom. In retrospect, that was SO manic!!).
And what about drugs or alcohol? What was his intake like in the past? Are you aware of any substance abuse issues? How much did he drink? He could well have PTSD from his experiences in his home country and could be self medicating.
Something just isn't adding up. The marriage is one thing - there could be lots of reasons for him to decide marriage no longer suits him. But adding on the lackadaisical attitude towards his work and patients -something is very wrong there.
Nicole - don't let your H move in with you.
Not at this point. Not until he fixes what is wrong with him. If he gets a good job even if its not in medicine - well fantastic. He is better at emotional/financial stability... well maybe. Truth be told the more Hospitals that let him go... they are all talk to each other... the harder it is to find new work. He has to address his own issues.
Nicole, this is solid gold advice!! Your heart his going to want to allow this very very much. Don't give in. There is no good that can come of him moving in with you until he has done his work. It will only extend your heartache and pain.
Oh Nicole there is so much wrong with your WAH right now, bailing on his family is just a consequence of his other problems. This is not the time to reconcile, even if he comes back it will be out of desperation not out of wanting to fix his mistakes. If the full time job offers you financial stability the take it without much delay. Having financial independence will give a great sense of stability to you and your D, what your H will offer for family maintenance once he gets a job is just an add on. Time to just take the bull by the horns and live as if there is no help from him emotional or financial. He can get whatever help he needs and fix his own issues, you have enough on your own hands
LneWlf, thanks so much.
KitCat, I admire everything you've done for your kids. You have multiple kids as I recall so that's even more impressive. I did move to this city with the intention of working. I was hoping to delay full-time employment until my daughter starts kindergarten next year but I'll try to negotiate a 35 hour work week where I can work-from-home most days to make it manageable. I hope I can do that, otherwise a large portion of my income will go to a nanny for after-school care. I still have to finish up some consulting agreements in the next few weeks so I'll work to get the best offer during that time. Regarding my husband moving in with us, there's nothing to indicate he'd try to do that. He's still living 1,000 miles away in our old city and needs to sell or rent the house. Then, even if he moves up here, his family is an hour away and that's where he's been staying every time he comes. His father cooks his favorite meals and he can stay awake late joking with his brothers just like they're kids again. For sure he'll either live with them or he'll get his own place. I'd love to hear your story as well as your updates!
KML, I was reading that depression commonly co-exists with ADHD. A lot of my husband's behavior seems to be explained by ADHD so if I had to guess, that's his primary issue. Depression could very well be a secondary issue since my husband has diagnosed himself with depression in the past. There's no family history of anything, but when I first met my husband he described how he tried to become a refugee in a nearby country and it didn't work out so when he returned home he became severely depressed until someone helped him find a job at the place where I was working. Then he had a mini-episode a few years after we got married where he got depressed and then got admitted into a degree program and as soon as he got there he was partying and had a brief affair, or almost had a brief affair. That alone wouldn't indicate bi-polar, but then when he moved out and separated the first time 2.5 years ago he was depressed first, as I've written in the past and don't want to bore you, and then suddenly he met this nurse he fell in love with and he started body building. Suddenly he was spending hours at the gym every night, texting this nurse 50 - 100 times per day (I found out later), and he was taking these 'explosive energy' drinks to give him energy to lift weights. He stopped playing with our daughter, ignored me, and started to engage in risky behavior like drivng six hours to Canada one night to visit an old girlfriend and then drove six hours back the next morning. Then when I caught him that day and got mad and he moved out. The same thing happened again this past year. Depression / boredom followed by obsessively building a dream house he can't afford and dating another nurse, whisking her off to Dubai on a luxury trip, all while turning into a raging monster to my daughter and I saying he'll divorce me at all costs. So there's a cycle, but I don't know if it's bi-polar. Some of it may simply be his lack of impulse control and lack of ability to focus on priorities. He neglected his family and his job to build an elaborate house and live out his fantasies with his nurse colleague. That's why to some degree I think it's just ADHD - complete inability to focus. His morals and ethics are also weak.
There's no drug or alcohol use but caffeine has played a big role in fueling this wild lifestyle.
Currently I believe, and hope, that my husband has realized his lifestyle was unsustainable. He may still not recognize that he has a problem and may keep doing the same thing until he loses his medical license or he may decide to fix his life. I think a lot of it depends on whether anyone intervenes and tells him to get his act together. If his father or one of his best friends removed the enabling support they've been providing and told him straight-up that he needs help he'd probably do something. It can't be me and I can't influence his family or friends, so there's nothing I can really do except hope for the best.
I just hope our daughter doesn't inherit a disorder that will be difficult to treat. As a baby she would only sleep for 20 minutes at a time, needed to be held 24 hours per day, and even now she's very sensitive and doesn't sleep well. There's a term called "high needs baby" that fit her behavior. Thankfully she doesn't have autism and she's smart and well-adjusted now, in part due to my giving her undivided attention all these years but I don't know what will happen when I work full-time and she spends the majority of her life at school or with babysitters who may not give her personalized attention.
Sorry to always write so much - I'm still trying to get a grip on everything. My husband was a very very nice man before he first left 2.5 years ago. It's still hard figuring out what happened to that person. Even last summer when he was building this house he designed a special pink bathroom for our daughter, asked me to design the kitchen according to my wishes, and seemed to be planning for our future despite the roommate situation. He thought he had so much disposable income and I kept trying to tell him that wasn't the case. He thought he was earning enough to live the lifestyle of a multi-millionaire and I kept telling him doctors don't make that much. I guess I stood in the way of his dream, but now hopefully he'll see for himself that his dream wasn't realistic. Some of it is simply unrealistic expectations for someone who has no idea how to manage money or function in a society where material wealth is all around you. My husband see's everything he wants and just assumes he can have it because he finally became a doctor. He also see's his single and divorced brothers and friends dating easy, scantily dressed women so the temptation is too great to resist - why live at home with one boring average-looking wife and a crying baby when he can go out and have all the women he wants easily and without commitment? I don't think it's just bi-polar or ADHD alone, I think he's living the American dream and a fantasy based on movies and music videos. Unfortunately he had to destroy my life and our daughter's life in the process of realizing this dream and it appears to all be crashing down. We'll see what happens next.
Steve85, just in case you don't want to read that novel, yes, my husband won't be moving in. It's not even an idea I'm considering because he'll live with his family if he moves up this way.
Spelling correction - I don't know why I keep spelling 'see's' wrong! It's like my hands add the apostrophe on auto-pilot. It should just be 'sees' for any of you English majors out there.
A lot of my husband's behavior seems to be explained by ADHD so if I had to guess, that's his primary issue.
ADHD doesn't explain leaving the hospital when you're supposed to be working to run "errands", especially after you've been warned.
That alone wouldn't indicate bi-polar, but then when he moved out and separated the first time 2.5 years ago he was depressed first, as I've written in the past and don't want to bore you, and then suddenly he met this nurse he fell in love with and he started body building. Suddenly he was spending hours at the gym every night, texting this nurse 50 - 100 times per day (I found out later), and he was taking these 'explosive energy' drinks to give him energy to lift weights. He stopped playing with our daughter, ignored me, and started to engage in risky behavior like drivng six hours to Canada one night to visit an old girlfriend and then drove six hours back the next morning.
This sounds manic and if he was bodybuilding he may have been/may be abusing steroids. Also those energy drinks may trigger manic behavior in a susceptible person.
You have little control but you might try gently suggesting to him that you see erratic behavior and hope he gets some help, and mention the possibility of bipolar or addiction. He won't likely admit anything to you but it may plant a seed.
KML, yeah there's no one explanation that seems to cover all of my husband's actions. I never found evidence of steroids but I guess it's a remote possibility if he was really good at hiding them. We lived together in a small apartment and shared a car at that time so it seems like I would have found something at some point. I've spoken with my husband in the past about getting treatment for his addictive / compulsive / depressive behaviors. He would say yes he knows he needs help but he doesn't want anything on his record that would affect his career, he's too busy, or he will do it later. I'll see if I have an opportunity to mention it again - he's supposed to come tomorrow for a week although he'll stay at his family's house and just visit here. I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again.
Stay strong Nicole. Have you seen your lasts posts are made from a healthier place than those from some days ago? Just keep that attitude girl, keep strong and possitive.
Hoping the best for your D and you.
Nicole, the strength you would need to stop worrying about how WAH is $crewing up his own life and to just concentrate on your own should be immense. Do not count on him in any way, emotionally or financially. I know you are strong mentally, I see that in your posts but it is also very apparent you still care for him a lot. You are still worried he may get into harms way if he treads on this path. Remember hon his problems are not yours anymore. He has fired you from that role. I wouldnt worry about the genes your D got from him, she is a blank canvas with an untainted mind, your upbringing will make her a strong independent woman. Just keep her out of your Hs unbalanced ways when you think he is out of control.
-Arshi
Thanks Neffer. I'll keep trying.
Arsh, I do care about my husband and how he's screwing up his life but I have to admit I'm also concerned about how his instability affects us. No matter how I do the math, I can't cover all the bills even with a full-time job. We live in one of the most expensive areas in the country and it's been five years since I've worked full-time so my salary and job level have stayed somewhat stagnant. There's also a big risk that I will miss too many days of work - if we get sick like we've been and I don't have enough sick days then I'll have to pay someone $150 or more to stay home with my sick daughter if I can even find someone. I need to downgrade everything in my life to the mere basics to survive and even that isn't enough. It just feels very unfair. I also don't think that's right that I have to be totally on my own financially. My husband has a responsibility to contribute. If he won't do it informally then it's immediately back to getting divorced once he's working again because I could end up bankrupt if everything collapses. All these years I've had a top credit score and no debt and now within the past year everything is crumbling from underneath.
My friend who is closest to my situation and who is also a physician believes my husband will find a new job quickly. He also says I should be tough with my husband and tell him in the meantime either he contributes financially or he moves here to care for our daughter while I work full-time. That makes sense, although I doubt I could convince my husband to care for our daughter.
I do care about my husband and I've invested 12 years of my life into him and this marriage so I wish he would get treatment for whatever is wrong to fix his life. I know there's nothing I can do about that and it's hard because we're still married so our financial decisions and mistakes still affect each other. At this particular moment when my husband is unemployed and I'm only a part-time consultant it's not the best time to get divorced either because we can't even afford the mediator expenses. We just have to get through this somehow.
My husband is now here in our area staying with his family for the next five days. We haven't seen him yet. I again feel upset that he's lounging around with his family when he could be here helping with our daughter. Hopefully he's busy applying for jobs. He's been acting nice but I've been too nice in giving him all this time and space, removing all the pressure, and letting him do whatever he wants instead of finding leverage to get him to care for his own child.
We'll see how it goes when he visits. I do believe DB is right in suggesting you give a spouse time and space and it has helped in our case, but I guess the thing about staying in this limbo period is at some point the wayward spouse almost takes advantage of the time and space and starts to think this is a perfectly fine scenario. We don't have to get divorced anymore, but there's no need to work on the marriage either. I'd still like to wait up to another year before filing for divorce if my husband doesn't do it first, just in case he does decide to turn his life around and for me to be stronger and more stable. It'd be wonderful if my husband chooses to start going to counseling, gets on medication, and wants to reconcile and we slowly see where it takes us. The chances of that appear to be very slim though, so more than likely this "up to one year" will just be more of the same thing.
I understand your financial difficulties Nicole, cant be easy with childcare and medical expenses. What your friend suggested makes sense, have him either continue contributing or take care of your child while you are at work. If he does not find a job in a few months I would do that. He can stay with his family and you can drop off your D or he could baby sit while you are away but make him useful in someway. Dont think of filing for D now, limbo [censored] but this is not a good time. Let things play out, I strongly believe in some way we are all fulfilling our destinies, our WAHs included. At least we are on the right side standing up for MR, not the dark side of the WAS.- Arshi
Arsh, you've gained a lot of wisdom in a short time about marriage and divorce!
All, my husband has been in town these past three days. He's staying at his family's house as usual. The day before he arrived he asked if he could stay at our place for a night but then he never did.
The next day (Friday) he came to visit our daughter for two hours. He said he's working hard to find a new job. He asked about some of our mutual friends for the first time since last summer. When he left on Friday he said he wanted to stay here with us on Saturday night. He also wanted to take our daughter to see his family on Saturday. Our daughter was really happy. I have non-enthusiastic but positive reactions to his plans ("sure, yeah").
On Saturday I said I'd drop off our daughter at my husband's family's house since there was somewhere I wanted to go near there. I drove her there and she wanted me to come in and my husband said to come in. I went in. They've moved since we last saw them and now they're in a big house. I wrote recently about how they don't live under sanitary conditions but everything was clean and sparkling when I came inside. It turns out they have an Ethiopian maid living in their basement now who cooks and cleans for them.
My in-laws seemed happy to see us and my father-in-law said they prepared a special vegetarian dish for me. I ate and our daughter wanted my husband to take her to Target. I was going to leave then but my in-laws looked lonely and I felt I should stay and sit with them. Our communications are limited (language barrier) but we just talked about normal things and nothing about the separation. Then my husband's youngest brother came home and he was friendly and told me about his progress with his career.
When my daughter got back she seemed tired so we left soon after that. I was planning to leave her with my husband the whole day but she stuck to me and seemed uncomfortable. My husband said he'd be coming to our area to meet his best friend for dinner but didn't say anything about staying with us. He called while I was driving to thank me for some specialty food items I gave my in-laws and to ask how the drive was going. Then we didn't hear from him the rest of the night.
Today my husband called almost at noon and asked when he should stop by. He came a short while ago and took our daughter to a playground. She has a party in two hours so I told him to bring her back for that.
I don't know. It's still so hard to grasp what's happening. My husband's family doesn't seem upset with me. They were very nice. It's hard to understand though how they think it's ok for their son to stay with them and visit our daughter just briefly. In their culture this is unusual.
It's also hard to understand why my husband talks about staying overnight and then we don't hear from him at all, or he visits for a short time and has no problem spending most of the time with his friends and family.
I still can't tell if we're headed closer towards divorce or reconciliation. I don't know how long this period of uncertainty will last. My husband said he's trying to find a job in this area. If he does I assume he'll live with his family or get his own place. So I guess this is it? Our life, if it continues as is, appears to be staying married but separated until one of us files for divorce. For me it's still better than divorce for the time being, but still difficult. I miss my husband so when I see him it brings back a lot of memories. I was laying on our old bed working on my laptop on Friday and my husband came and laid down next to me and said he wanted to have a rest and I didn't have to move. I had to move though or else I'd lose all my composure and start to cry in front of our daughter.
It seems on this forum there's a lot of knowledge of wayward wives but not so much about wayward husbands. The therapist I'd been seeing wasn't terribly helpful. I wish to go back to the one I saw in NYC so I may try to see him when I go there later this month. I feel like I need guidance to understand what's happening now. Am I missing something? Is there something I should do differently? Is reconciliation still a possibility or are we just delaying divorce until a more convenient time? I'll continue to live with the uncertainty but I know within some reasonable time period (six months? one year?) one of us will need to talk about the relationship and what to do next.
Do you think your in-laws were more pleasant and happy to see you as part of cultural decorum and politeness? I know that it is something part of my culture and I know it's kinda the same in other parts of Middle East. It's at least good you were able to be there and not feel very uncomfortable.
About where you're going - I dunno. But, what I suspect is happening is that he's in a jam right now and is trying to lean on you for whatever support or time he needs. Maybe he's doing the bare minimum so that his parents and friends don't get on his case about being an absent father. Him saying one thing and doing another seems to be a common pattern with WW/WH, so that's kinda par for the course. You just can't rely on him and anything he says he will do.
This doesn't look like recon to me. Recon would be deliberate, more focused, communicative, and some planning of next steps. This just looks like he's waffling all over the place.
I wouldn't let him stay over at your place. You've made great progress moving forward with your life and don't let him derail things. Him staying over night means nothing, it's just crumbs and it's about himself.
I also want to challenge you on staying at your in-laws. Was it really them being lonely, or you wanting to stay there until your D got back and take her home? Are you creating space for him to get away with being a temporary parent? If you had left, what would've happened? He would've had to figure out the rest of the day and take care of D.
You're not responsible for his relationship with D, but are you also letting him get off the hook being a parent when he's in town?
Nicole, I dont know about gaining a lot of wisdom but as LBS all of us become resigned to our sitches at one point in time and try finding power through our beliefs. I have felt it very often that the site is abundant with WWs and WAWs but not enough guidance for how to deal with WAH/WH. May be someone can guide to specific posts by other users. I have been reading a lot on the MLC threads, it seems very applicable to my own and your sitch. Of course DB techniques and uncertainty of the outcome remains the same. Your inlaws turning a blind eye towards their sons actions is not ok, but you know what they are siding with their own child. My MIL saw me go thru hell and back but as soon as her son opened up and fed his story she sided with him and I couldnt believe how anybody who had any humanity could do this. But then as a mother of 2 young children I understood, she did this as a mother, in some sense a mother is the most selfish being when it comes to her own children and any good mother would take her own childs side. Your MIL might have done the same and then turned the entire Hs family to her view point. This is how it typically works with all families. I would keep my distance with them, if there is anything there you would only get a misinterpretation of your actions and words reaching your WAH thru them, you do not want that. Unless they reach out and want to help you just be with them as you were before.
Maika, thanks for taking the time to respond!
I'm not sure about my in-laws. I tried to be polite as well. In recent months I thought they probably think I'm a terrible person because my husband must have said a lot of bad things, kind of like your concerns recently, but things seemed normal so I don't know what he said.
That's interesting to hear saying one thing and doing another is a pattern with wayward spouses. Why is that? My husband has never been a great planner but he was reliable in the past. Now it's like he could care less. I guess these people just live in-the-moment?
Yeah we're not reconciling currently because my husband hasn't shown any interest in me. It's more just like a gradual warming that seems to be reinforced more each time we interact. Today we managed to make eye contact when we spoke which at least for me wasn't possible in the past five or six months.
I don't want to bore everyone with another re-cap of our day but it went well and felt very natural for the time we were together. After my husband left he called a while later and said something that was funny and I joked back and we were both laughing. That definitely hasn't happened in way more than a year.
When my husband wanted to reconcile the first time it was very dramatic and unexpected. Currently I just can't tell if he's being nicer because I don't bother him anymore now that I moved away and stopped calling him or if it's because he's mildly sorry and regretful for what he's done. I just can't tell. I just wish I was smart or intuitive enough to read the signs better. My feeling is that my husband is sorry and wants to take small steps towards potentially reconciling but he doesn't want to give me hope in case he changes his mind. Simultaneously I'm not doing anything to indicate I'd be interested in reconciling so we're both in-the-dark as to the other's intentions.
The main reason why I keep writing similar / duplicate type posts, which I'll try to stop doing now because it looks like nothing will change soon, is because it's really hard to live with uncertainty for a long time. A few weeks or a few months is manageable but it looks like in my case I'll probably be doing this for many more months like this unless I file for divorce. I don't want to file but it's hard wondering where this is headed and not being able to get an answer.
I still think Thanksgiving will be the determining date. If my husband shows no emotion that day then I'll be quite sure nothing can save us. This is an extremely important day for my husband due to shopping discounts and turkey, both of which he loves. There's no other day of the year when he's happier. Even this past November he sent an "I'm so sorry for everything" text when our situation was pretty terrible. So I'll wait to see what happens unless he suddenly files for divorce before that which is always possible.
The stay overnight request doesn't appear to be anything related to me or reconciliation. It seems to be more about logistics - my husband staying here because it's easier than driving an hour each way and we live near the airport so easier to stay here when he arrives. He didn't stay, but if he did he'd be welcome to stay in the guest room and help himself to anything. I wouldn't try to socialize, cook for him, or do any of our old normal stuff. Perhaps I should simply say no, he can't stay, but our daughter would be so happy and excited to see him in the morning and she's really happy whenever we're together as a family. I don't know.
Regarding your challenge, I'm not really sure. I think I have trouble leaving my daughter in a situation where I don't have confidence in the people who will care for her. I think I hesitated to hand her over for the whole day when I saw her feeling uncomfortable and being kind of ignored while everyone watched the World Cup game.
At the moment when she and my husband left I was planning to leave as well to go to my destination, but I looked at my in-laws sitting there alone and I felt it would be kind of rude to just leave after not seeing them for so long. Plus they had made me a special recipe so I stayed, but I probably should have left and told my husband I'll expect our daughter back at night and then just let everyone figure it out. I'll have to try it sometime and see how it goes.
For the first 1.5 years of our daughter's life, before my husband left the first time, I'd beg him to take care of her. I couldn't understand why he couldn't be a normal father. I had to go out-of-town one day on a business trip and I told him he would have her for three hours after the babysitter left. When I got back that evening he was totally flipping out and said he couldn't ever do that again and we need a live-in nanny. So then we got an Au Pair and from then on he was off the hook. I should be tough and just hand her off and leave when he visits but I care about her wellbeing and I don't trust my husband so I don't know how to do it. I guess I just have to be strong and accept there will probably be mistakes and tears and frustration and hope for the best.
One other update is that I'm going to try to increase my consulting job hours and delay working full-time for now because it appears I'll lose more money by having a nanny plus pre-school than what I'll make.
I apologize to anyone reading that my posts are so long. It's one of my faults - not being able to be concise. My husband says it, one of my bosses said it, and I try when talking to catch myself if I go on too long to avoid boring the other person. I'll try really hard to make the next post brief!
Nicole, your posts are fine, this is after all the only place where we vent out, and you know what if a WAH says something, then it is absolutely wrong so go on writing. Have you read up the MLC forum posts, especially the homework and stickies there, I do not remember how old your H is but I could apply a lot of what i read there to your sitch and the consensus is MLC could last 3 to 7 years. You could possibly figure out what stage he may be in right now, although i felt in my sitch if WAH is in MLC a lot of these stages are overlapping for him or maybe I still need to understand it better. Try this too thestagesandlessonsofmidlife.org, i could not find the threads here but was able to find it online.
Thanks Arsh I'll check that site and will read more in MLC section of this forum. My husband's psychologist did say he's having a mid-life crisis. It's been nearly three years since it started and even five years since my husband made the first reference to missing out on his youth. When I've read about MLC's there's usually an affair involved. The hard part is that it doesn't appear MLC husbands always come back to their wives at the end. It looks like sometimes they morph into a whole different person and stay that way forever. So there's not much reassurance although the knowledge of what's happening can be helpful and perhaps some do wake up and return. I'll read more to find out more.
Nicole, one of the things that I see in my sitch, that I also see in yours is an inability to detach fully. In my case, I'm pretty sure that it's because we still do things that I have mentioned in my thread like lingering over lunch, or her coming out to the movies with me and my D. Your husband coming over and lying in the bed next to you is one example of the things that I suspect make it harder for you, and us, in the long run.
Another thought regarding him losing his job... I think you should talk to a lawyer about filing for divorce if for no other reason than to mandate support for you and D. I'm obviously not a lawyer, and would talk to one about whether you should/would receive support based on his earning POTENTIAL vs his current actual earnings. I am under the impression support is based on earning POTENTIAL, which makes coming up with the money each month his problem, not yours.
Jim, yes that's exactly right. I moved far away and started over but when he visits I no longer feel detached. It's impossible to avoid this because we have a daughter unless I find someone to hand her off and receive her so I don't have to see him at all. If he moves here to this area it'll be good for our daughter but bad for me. There's always the glimmer of hope that he'll turn his life around and we can try again but in reality I know this is unlikely. Seeing him and having positive interactions with him just makes it hard to detach.
My husband says he'll still support us even if he has to borrow money from his family. My physician friends say he should be able to get another job in a few weeks. I hate to fork over another $200 or $300 for a lawyer consultation but if my husband doesn't send what we need at the end-of-the-month then I'll see a lawyer. I do wonder how they can make someone pay if that person is unemployed and has no income. I'm still hoping though my husband will find another job and keep supporting us as he's been until we decide to formally divorce. I'm going to ramp up my consulting hours in the meantime.
I was wondering if there's any news on your end about your divorce?
Hi Nicole - These are tough times. It also make us better and more resilient. Know that we are all with you in support and prayers. Stay strong you will persevere. Blessings!
Nicole have you thought of just getting the separation support sorted out? You have said he has been consistent with sending you money but his habits are erratic and with him losing his job and you finding out it is not beneficial to work full time I would be concerned about the finances. Have you met with a L to find out what the child support and other financial obligations he will have to bear without actually filing for D? - arshi
Hi Nicole, just stopped by for a few words of encouragement. I admire the way you handle your situation, its a difficult one for sure but you seem to assess the circumstances very analytically and with more kindness and patience than I think I could muster. Hope youre having a good Wednesday.
I admire the way you handle your situation, its a difficult one for sure but you seem to assess the circumstances very analytically and with more kindness and patience than I think I could muster.
oh gosh yes, I have always thought her WAH was the biggest idiot for not seeing the kindness and forgiveness she has for him. It is very hard to love someone who cheats and bails out on their family, but love is a choice, and choosing to love someone for the goodness that is buried within takes a big heart. Nicole, I know all of us have drawbacks that is why we are the LBSs, actually I think so does rest of the world but our misfortune brought us here, but your H is a real fool for leaving you, sorry. - arshi
Nicole, I know all of us have drawbacks that is why we are the LBSs, actually I think so does rest of the world but our misfortune brought us here, but your H is a real fool for leaving you, sorry. - arshi
Hi Nicole, I am in agreement with Arshi but in regards to this statement about drawbacks and issues. Brene Brown has a good book called The gifts of Imperfection and she also has some TED Talks videos that you may find worthwhile. This book talks about acceptance - loving who YOU really are. I often need these messages and think others would benefit from them too. Blessings!
Thanks Arsh, Helena, and LoneWlf. I'm guilty of wrongdoing too so I feel humble considering my mistakes and how I wasn't able to see the damage I was inflicting until it was too late. This is one reason why I still wish to reconcile with my husband as friends or as married partners because we've both hurt each other, although what he's done is obviously worse. Another factor is faith just as LoneWlf writes about on his thread. If you don't follow any particular faith it may not help but if you do then the lessons on love, compassion, forgiveness, and justice are a good source of support although you have to balance the love and justice parts. If you're too easily forgiving and loving your partner will take advantage of that and believe they can have you back easily. If you're too focused on justice then it's hard to see any reason to save the marriage.
One thing we can't see about one another on a blind forum such as this one is what we're all like in real life, and what our spouses are like. My husband is really handsome and he has a lot of confidence in his appearance and women everywhere look at him on the streets. He knows he can easily attract almost anyone but that's different than being in a long-term relationship with challenges and responsibilities. He tried out marriage and found it's easier and more fun to have short-term relationships but I don't know how long that lifestyle will last. I, on the other hand, look average and it's hard for me to find the motivation to focus on makeup and hair because I'm always busy with my daughter, work, and trying to manage everything. I also dress conservatively so unless I want to change, how can I compete with the women my husband goes after? It seems there's a mismatch. If my husband and I were ever to reconcile I think I'd have to put more effort into beauty and fashion and he'd have to put more effort into being committed to a long-term partnership.
There are no other updates on my end....everything is the same.
Interesting. My friend won't date men who are too handsome because she feels like she would always be looking over her shoulder and that they would cheat (even though she's quite attractive in her own right. ) My crazy exBF was handsome (often mistaken for an ex-pro athlete because of his build) and she couldn't understand why I wasn't concerned about that. (Turned out he WAS unfaithful but it had nothing to do with me, and everything to do with his mental illness. In fact I'm the one he still wants but I've made it clear we are only friends going forward.)
My ex was not a super handsome guy and I think when we were first together he thought I was a real catch in the looks department (I was). But as a physician, many women are available to them due to their perceived money and power, even if they're not handsome. That can be hard to compete with, especially if they suffer from depression or personality disorders that make them more vulnerable to cheating. (My friend thinks college professors are a bad risk too as she thinks they all end up sleeping with their students!).
" I, on the other hand, look average and it's hard for me to find the motivation to focus on makeup and hair because I'm always busy with my daughter, work, and trying to manage everything."
Ok - don't do this for your husband but do it for YOU. This is a time when you need to start feeling better about your own attractiveness. Work out. Get a new haircut and/or color - try something new. Discipline yourself to spend a few minutes every morning putting on makeup even if you don't think you'll see anybody. Get a simplified routine for every day if it takes you too long. I didn't really wear makeup for the first 40 years or so of my life but it's amazing what a difference a little bit can do. And I can put on foundation, powder, corrector for my undereye dark circles, eyebrow pencil, crayon eyeliner and mascara in about three minutes flat. (Eyeshadow and lipstick if I'm feeling fancy). I know it seems like just one more chore but do it so you stop feeling bad about yourself. And if you want your husband back you should at least be willing to put in that minimal effort - confidence is attractive. And if you decide he's a lost cause, you never know, you might just meet someone in the grocery store!
Your post saddened me somewhat.
A wonderful young mother with great values and enormous love in her heart struggling with self esteem issues because of looks.
OK WH may be good looking, although even that is subjective, but at the moment he has an ugly heart and dirt bag behaviour together with a wayward trouser snake. And these qualities will age him and make him hard and unattractive, the body holds it as the mind betrays the scumbagging to the body. At the end of her time here on the board the amazing poster Cherry wrote "WH is unattractive". Because he was to her. You too will see the ugly from the heart sketch and draw on the face and body.
It wasn't his looks or others giving him admiring glances that made your WH cheat, it was his dingbat waywardism. It was Mr Cheater pants mindset. Not his chizelled chin or deep luxurious hair.
You, my lovely lady will soften with age and glow because you have learned that it is love and self care that creates that attractive sheen that is seen for joy. You have love in your heart for your children.
Here sit by V and look in the mirror and see that beauty is more than skin deep, it is love and joy. SEE THAT IN YOUR OWN EYES AND KNOW IT TO BE TRUE.
If you read my thread then you will see that I had a similar view of myself, that I am not enough, but gradually over time I can deeply love as well as extreme self care for V. I wish you brave lady the same shift. I want for you the joy that I recently experienced when a young girl of about 6 walked to my table in a supermarket cafe and said 'you are so beautiful and you smile a lot.'
Take it from a seasoned by trial V, the things that matter most are self care and deep love, you have these in abundance.
Being beautiful or handsome is an extra gift which can be easily wasted if it isn't taken care of through love, and it fades quickly with time in the wayward. Whereas others grow into great beauty. Of itself it does not guarrantee fidelity in a spouse, just look at extra ordinary women in the public eye whose WH cheated. Here on the board I can say to you that there are some stunning women and handsome men, all LBS whose waywards cheated. It is the heart that cheats in the cheater and as such they decompensate in the body.
I trust one day you may turn around and say a crazy lady on a board told me that she knew I was beautiful as I had great love in my heart. Tomorrow, smile, look in your own eyes in a mirror and say 'I am enough'. Start with that.
Because it is so.
V
Nicole, Kml, I going to give you my perspective. I consider myself average on the looks scale. When I am fit as I am now-0 I receive alot of compliments. Many people say I have an exotic look. I often get asked if I am anything from Indigenious, Hawaiian,South American to Asian because I am very tanned. It is very flattering especially now to get womans attention and nice compliments provide a small ego boost. From my own experiences I have dated women that were high maintenance. Although stunning on the outside were super shallow on the inside. My W is such a plain Jane. No make up- simple hairstyle (salt and pepper) and very little accessories. I truly fell in Love with her heart. Why I have become so heart broken is because I would have had the most beautiful love story for my future grand children of how Grandpa and Grandma met.
I serve at my church as an usher. I attended regularly - My W approached me and asked for my number. I thought nothing of it thinking friendship. It was around Christmas time. We had planned to meet on a first date at a mall as I was doing my shopping close to Christmas. This date never happened because while I was waiting on the 1st floor she was waiting on the second. She reached out to me again before Christmas when I found out she was to spend Christmas alone because she had to work and her family was 4 hours away. My mom taught me to always extend a hand of friendship to those in need. I invited her to my family Christmas party where my family warmly welcomed her. This is where I found out she was separated and worked at a group home for men with aquired brain injuries (from strokes to car accidents). Not thinking of relationships we began to hang out. She was alot different then my previous dates. More plain, quiet, introverted but with a strong faith. I played alot of sports basketball, volleyball and baseball and dated women from the coed league. My W was just plain. Anyways as we continued hanging out (dating) my dad at the time had his first stroke. After about 2 years of dating and my dad having 2nd stroke which left his whole left side immobile. My W looks to me and says " Let's move closer to your Dad your mom is getting old -I want to take care of him". It was at that exact moment I felt I needed to marry this woman. So my next birthday- having a strong friendship with the priest. I asked my priest if he would allow me into the empty church that nite for a birthday prayer with my at the time GF. We went to the alter said a prayer and then I took her to the spot where we met. Right by the stained glass window with Jesus and the inscription "Come Follow Me"- I bent down on one knee and asked W for my special bday present- I want you to be my Wife. She said yes and we started planning for marriage.We worked together to get her 1st marriage annulled and got the next available date to marry from our priest. I cannot script this any better. We got married - took a honeymoon Caribbean cruise and almost 9 months to the day-we were blessed with my S. I often call him my Caribbean honeymoon souveneir. Telling this story makes me both happy to share but sad that things have gone south.
My point here is I feel it is the looks that initially get us (men) . But it is the substance ( from within) that keep us. My own personal feelings is although attractiveness ranks high because men are mostly visual creatures. True beauty radiates from within. That is why I fell so hard from my W. And this is why with my recent interactions with her and her actions after BD why I fell alot less attracted to her. Anyways only my take ( sorry to hijack your thread).
Nicole the way your WH is right now, he reeks of irresponsibility, immaturity and selfishness. There is no beauty in the world that can cover the stench of the inner decay in personalities. Have you read the MLC for dummies thread in the MLC forum, try it its really funny painfully so but does make you giggle. They even talk about LBS losing weight
On my thread you spoke about how you feel the void after your H left. I forget from your past posts, how long after BD did he move out this time around? How was the atmosphere at home with D before he left? Do you think with the new place the void seems lesser now?
And as for you, indulge in some self care and retail therapy. Even for a minute looking at yourself you feel good, that one minute of happiness is worth it at this phase of our lives. You have a D, she will notice when you dress up, she will compliment you, that will make your day. Any little bits of joy we get now we should lap it up. - arshi
Nicole - I promised you a nice story... here it goes.
I have a dear male friend who met someone who really got him. It was probably the most serious relationship he had ever been in and this man was in his late twenties/early thirties. But, ultimately she broke it off and then he could clearly see what happened. There was intense back and forth as she even showed up one night stating they could run off and marry in Vegas but she disappeared again. He was crushed... really crushed. She was his first real true big love in life. He struggled in trying to find ways to get over her.
She went on to become pregnant and marry another man though she was still in touch with my friend and he still loved her. Eventually he told her he couldn't stay in contact any longer as it was too painful. She continued in her life as married and a mother now.
He moved on. He continued to work his job and let it carry him to two other states. He had his good friends and he did his best at dating. It was hard it first. Everyone compared to this woman was once smitten with but he managed to date and even let himself try a serious relationship again though ultimately he had to admit to the woman that he wasn't as committed as she was. He got to the point he was living his life and finding his happy places.
A series of events and there was contact again. It was now 10yr later.... A friendly update contact about something they had in common though she was now divorced and he was still living his life for himself. It opened the door and they started discovering what they enjoyed and missed about each other. I feel my male friend was very hesitant and cautious about this recent state.
I can now tell you that they have been married now for just over 2 years and have a young toddler too boot! They have come full circle and seem so enamored with each other and their life in general.
So yes Nicole its possible for people to have a future but the only way it happened for these two is that they each had to let go and move on - they had to detatch, they had to be full and happy people on their own before they truly found happiness with each other.
I see you still living in your past quite a bit. Still talking about the person or way your H used to be... and more recently seeing you stating how you would have to change to so your H could stay with you. You don't have to change and honestly you changing so your H will stay is the perfect ingredient for failure. Of course, if you have certain behaviors that may have caused some demise in your relationship by all means work on those, but if you are not a woman of make up and high fashion you need not adopt that lifestyle if that isn't who you are. I've know plenty of knock down gorgeous men who were with fairly plan janes --- it was always like WHAT??? In one case there was a connection through childhood, another it was because the girl was very smart and could carry on a very good conversation and that she was into some of his unique hobbies. These gorgeous men were devoted to their girls. These girls were confident... they were often very homely in just appearance but these men were attracted to other qualities.
Nicole your H has always been good looking. You seem to feel that you are not of the caliber of these "other" women" but your H dated and married you. I have no doubt during those times you never compared yourself to these "others". You were confident in who you were... and that is the most attractive quality in any person.
The best advice I ever got in relationships is from my male friend who's story I just shared with you. Years before there was to ever be a reconciliation with his love he would often make time to hear about my broken heart. And one day I just blurted out why do I just sound like a broken record??? And, he said, you will get over this when you decide your ready to get over this. He was kind and wasn't judging. He would always just listen. He would offer words of encouragement and suggestions but he was was right. One day I realized it was enough and I moved on.
You will get there too Nicole. I think your relationship and state of affairs is at a point where you are going to need to move on. I don't know what your future holds but right now your H is living his own life on his terms. The only reason there is contact at all is because of a mutual child. Now I encourage or actually beg you to do everything possible on your end so that your D can have the best relationship possible with your H. That will be hard to do... I mean really you are raising her as a solo parent at the moment AND you now have to go above and beyond to help facilitate a relationship for her and your H? YES... Yes you do... that is always what you do as a parent. You always put every single need of your D above your own agenda. It will not be easy to being doing 75% of the work in that while he skates by doing 25% but the ultimate goal is for your daughters mental well being. You will sleep better at night if they have a truly wonderful relationship even though it only happened because of you. That is the best gift you can give your D. Many times its learning how to work in the background... you have already learned that "guilting", "demanding" and "belittling" into getting your H to spend time with you D DOES NOT work. Stepping aside and being available when he brings it up does. No that's not giving him control. Of course you should have boundaries... he cannot call at last minute or weird times to have his D but you have seen that the less you demand of him the more available he is... you are figuring this out!!!!
It will make it so much harder to detach... been there/done that when you are dealing with kids in a broken relationship but you can get there and you will know it when you do! You will realize one day you are doing all the normal stuff but you just don't respond to the button pushing and you literally don't care about their drama. There will be a brief moment you get to sit back and giggle a bit because they will see the shift. They will be confused that your actions aren't the same. They will try to stir the pot because maybe they didn't do something right... but then nope that doesn't work either. They will be so confused!!!! They will chase but you will hopefully be in a better place to make good decisions based on what is really going on versus just jumping at the first temp check.
My H and I are doing fine. Its not perfect but it wasn't before either!!! We certainly hit a very low spot in our M but it wasn't as far gone as many on here. It was just a perfect storm of the oldest leaving school and joining the military (my H was military and certainly disciples like he is military but did not want his son to be military), mid life questions, M is slipping away, etc. I did my work and we got back on track. Of course he also got a new fishing boat for 16K and as of this weekend a new $20K motorcycle... sigh... Men... are just teenagers with money... :-) He is finding himself in the next stage of life. AND, now he needs to find me some new furniture and some outdoor landscaping to go with it!!! :-)
I don't see your H returning until you have really detached and moved on. I think Nicole still has to find herself and figure out where her value is in all this rather than changing herself into what she thinks her H wants.
You can do this!
Hi everyone, I wish I could have responded sooner! It was a busy and tiring last couple of days. In a sense I overdid the "GAL" aspect of DB and my daughter and I are just exhausted. You were all kind enough to write such long and caring responses. I'll try to respond to them each very shortly (like in the next hour or two). Thanks so much.
KML, it's a good observation about the contrasts between seeking out attractive vs. unattractive partners. It's nice to hear your ex-bf still seeks you out! It sounds like you also well understand the cheating mindset among physicians although we know they're not all like that. Regarding looking better for myself - I'm trying but need to try more. Prior to having my daughter I wore a suit to work with makeup every day and had really beautiful hair with highlights. Since then I've been working-from-home so I don't have as much need to look good every day and my budget has been tighter. As soon as I recover financially from this past year I'll do more. I was even looking into a procedure called Pelleve for under my eyes because some of the lines are worse than other people my age due to crying and allergies. I do wear makeup most days but I have allergies to most eye makeup so I can't wear it consistently. I need to find a new dermatologist to advise on this issue. Overall I do wish to feel that I'm the best that I can be, even if it's not comparable to the Victoria's Secret type that my husband goes for.
Vanilla, I really appreciate the way you write. It always brings a laugh and smile. Maybe because you're from the UK and you use different phrases than we use here in the US but it's really funny. You have a way with words! I haven't been able to find your original thread but I'll search again. It's encouraging to hear you were once in this position and you were able to move on and feel better. You're right about everything you write. My husband is currently attractive on the outside but not on the inside, although the version of him that I married was heroic, kind, attentive, and generous. It's definitely his desire to cheat and the many opportunities to do so that are to blame. It's also true that I was the only American woman he'd ever met when we met in his home country where women are mostly fully covered, but I was a conservative American woman which meant I was respected. In that part of the world a lot of men would love to have a fling with an easy scantily dressed woman but they wouldn't respect or marry such a woman. I, on the other hand, was the type that men in that culture would marry. So my husband was really happy with me at that time although it's still possible he was using me for immigration purposes. I'll never fully know because we stayed married for so long after he became a citizen but it's possible he always had a plan to leave once enough time passed. Anyway I generally feel that who I am as a person is beautiful. I care about children and animals. My career is focused on helping reduce poverty and conflict in the world. I recycle and care about the environment. I try to help others and give more than I receive. At my daughter's schools both here and in our old state the toddlers would run over to me and start talking which I noticed doesn't happen with the other moms. I eat healthy and don't have any alcohol or caffeine and little salt and sugar. I don't know. I feel I try and I feel I'm probably beautiful as a person, just not to my husband. I also did a lot of bad things to my husband that were out-of-character because I got so frustrated with him these past few years. But I'll do as you say and practice more self-love and hope to feel less hurt by my husband's rejection. Sometimes it feels like you could be anyone in the world but a man would easily dismiss you for a fun, easy, young sex object but I guess you can reach a point where you don't care anymore. I'm glad Vanilla that you've overcome many of your own challenges and see bad behavior for what it is.
LoneWlf, I'm sure you're a handsome guy. That's still a beautiful story about how you and your wife met and married even if it ends prematurely. I like how she met your family at Christmas! It's like it was meant to be and she went straight to being accepted by them. She also sounds lovely for wanting to help care for your father. Your proposal also sounds amazing and I love that it took place in a church. It's hard to believe your wife turned into who she is now. It doesn't make sense. I'm sure your wife is also beautiful on the outside but it's reaffirming to know you loved who she was as a person. I know there are a good men like you out there. I also believe the bitterness, resentment, and sarcasm I displayed towards my husband after he started to pull away further facilitated his loss of attraction to me. That's why I'm sorry for my behavior I have worked to change. If your wife would want to change and be the beautiful woman she used to be both inside and outside I bet you could be attracted to her again. I still feel we can learn from our mistakes, forgive and be forgiven, and have second chances but it can only happen when both partners are willing to try as we all know well.
Arsh, yes my husband is immature. That's the word that my friends in real life use. My husband's second BD was mid-August last year and two weeks later we were living separately. We were living in a temporary vacation home last summer while we waited for our new house to be done. Then my husband moved to the house and my daughter and I to an apartment. Initially my husband said he wanted to separate and he'd stay in the house to finish the final details and then we'd try to fix our marriage and my daughter and I would move into the house. Then that never happened and he wouldn't allow us to move into the house. The apartment we stayed in was really bad. Now we're in a nice apartment in our new city but it's still nothing compared to the house we built. Before my husband's second BD things were actually improving. We were excited about our new house and we were all sleeping together in the same bed last summer in part because we were afraid our daughter would fall out of the other bed during the night so she slept between us. But we'd go to bed all together and wake up all together. One night last July my husband said something mean and I said (insincerely) he could go live in the new house alone and he was so upset. He said "No! Don't say that!" So until the night that he came back from the psychologist last summer I don't think he was planning to separate again but he wasn't willing to put in the effort to fix the marriage either. It's a complicated dynamic. The void now is the same as it was before. We live in a different place and we're busy and active with friends, colleagues, neighbors, and relatives but wherever we go we're surrounded by happy complete families as I often write. I still have yet to meet a single parent (I'll try to find a new MeetUp group but the one here is waitlisted). At the end of the day I'm still alone. I can't plan fun dates to the movies or to a restaurant or walk in a park holding hands with anyone because I don't have a husband and I'm not dating either. There's a void that can't be filled but my daughter and I are doing the best we can do. We have each other and we don't depend on my husband. My daughter is happy right now, but someday she'll figure out that she was abandoned by her father and she'll be hurt. I hope you'll feel less of a void when your husband leaves but it's hard. I hope it'll get better for us both as time passes.
KitKat, that's a happy story about your friend marrying the woman he loved after so many years of them being apart. It sounds like the way he felt about that woman is how I feel about my husband. I'm glad it worked out for them to marry later on. It sounds like an issue of timing and they finally connected at the right time. It sounds like this man was also a good friend to you and had a lot of empathy when you were going through a rough time. Thanks for your encouragement. I'm not sure what more I can do action-wise to move on right now. From an outer appearance I've moved on. I don't even talk much about my situation to my friends and colleagues anymore because they've already heard the story and they've lost interest and I don't see any value in bringing it up. I don't call my husband or depend on him for anything except financial support which is now in jeopardy because he lost his job. I don't see my husband often now that we live 1,000 miles away. I've done counseling for almost a year. I've done more GAL in the past few months than in all of my youth (at least that's how it feels). I'm not sure what more I can do. I think it sounds worse on this forum because this is really the only place now where I talk about this issue. I feel that all of my hopes and dreams have been wiped away this past year. It's not just my husband who is gone but everything we built together and worked towards for a decade is gone. I went from being financially stable in at least an upper middle class standing to barely scraping by. The business I started is gone. Our plans to give our daughter a great life are gone. I turned 40 and I'm suddenly single. I think the part where I'm stuck is that we're still legally married. There's still that small window of opportunity for my husband to wake up and realize what he's doing before we go through all the paperwork and process of divorce but I don't see any signs of that happening. He's been nicer. Things between us have been normalizing. When he visits we're able to smile together and play with our daughter which makes her happy. He hasn't mentioned divorce now since March so on one hand things are better and I'm much happier now than I was before we moved. On the other hand he shows no interest in reconciling as married partners. Whatever happens in the future we didn't do the immediate divorce my husband wanted in January which would have been so devastating so I'm thankful for that. But on the other hand all those hopes and dreams are still gone - even if we try to start over it'll be a totally different life. And until we divorce or reconcile there's a void that can't be filled, but I'm trying to have patience and fill my life and my daughter's life with many different people and activities. I'm glad we moved and got established here before my husband lost his job because he paid all our expenses to make this happen and now he wouldn't be able to do that. I do sound like a broken record probably because I'm still trying to stabilize and process all these changes. I can definitely see what a bad person my husband has been especially compared to what I see all around me. There's another man in my life who would be better than my husband, and I know he feels the same about me, but our circumstances prevent us from being together and I doubt we'll ever have that chance. I don't really know what else do to except allow time to pass while I raise my daughter, pursue my career, focus on faith, and keep building a strong and diverse social network. I wish there was one more thing I could do and it would fix everything and I'd forget about my husband forever but I haven't found it. Maybe if I accidentally fell in love unexpectedly with another man it would change everything, but in real life even if that happened my daughter is #1 and I'm not willing to sacrifice much of my time with her to spend with another man. I'm glad you and your husband are doing fine and found a solution that works for both of you. If your husband is happy with his purchases and he can make you happy too then that's as much as you can ask for in life! It's important to never take for granted the love of our spouse when we're married. I'm glad things worked out for you. I have no idea about my future but I'll always remain open to reconciling with my husband if the circumstances are right and he's willing to do the work. We'll see how it goes.
Thanks for the compliment Nicole.The point i wanted you to get from my story is-
My point here is I feel it is the looks that initially get us (men) . But it is the substance ( from within) that keep us. My own personal feelings is although attractiveness ranks high because men are mostly visual creatures. True beauty radiates from within.
You seem like a very well balanced individual, with good ethics and morals.Very intelligent in your comments and analysis. Responsible and kind hearted are other words I would describe you. My point is your beauty radiates from within. Believe that!
I will add to the awesome points that LW just did and what my particular preferences are generally. Yes, 'attractive' women from what the Western world tells us have to look a certain way. And because men are so heavily socialized that way, that initially gets our interest, but if there is no substance behind the looks, doesn't matter. If one is just looking for sex, then there is no reason to worry about substance.
What is the most attractive thing to me is vibrant confidence. I would date a woman who exudes that confidence in how she carries herself and how she has her own style and appearance over a traditionally 'attractive woman'. Confidence, not arrogance or being egotistical, is one that gets me the most and is the most endearing quality I find. I've heard it also goes the same way for men.
But yeh. Gain that confidence and swagger Nicole! You'll be unstoppable.
How is WH’s job hunt going Nicole? Is he able to support you both financially during this ??- arshi
Hi Nicole
Wow! You’re already at your 5th thread! I think you once replied to a post on my thread. I tried to read your story but I couldn’t read everything. I just read your first post in each of the 5 threads
Anyway, I’m sure you got plenty of great advice from the others.
I just wanted to highlight a few things that came to my mind while reading:
1. Not sure why you keep repeating that your H is middle eastern. Trust me: this has nothing to do with his behaviour. You could have been middle eastern and him American and he would have behaved the same way.
2. I’m sure you know by now that this has nothing to do with you and all to do with him. I’m sure everyone told you that in your 5 threads
3. You have been very very patient and very forgiving. I am not sure any person deserves that much patience, love and kindness while behaving in such disrespectful way. I don’t think this man deserves you.
4. You are right that his behavior could affect your child in some way, but I’m sure it will be better for her to have a happy mom, which will only happen when you let him go.
5. I know that you came to this forum seeking advice for restoring your M and not to hear people say you should move on, but his repeated behavior over such a long time seem to be really deep in his character. It would be a totally different story if this had happened after your child was a grown up.
My 2 cents! It is sad to see people like that, but at least you can be proud of who you are.
P.S. I am no expert in any of this. These are just opinions. I could be totally wrong
5. I know that you came to this forum seeking advice for restoring your M and not to hear people say you should move on, but his repeated behavior over such a long time seem to be really deep in his character.
Let me tweak this advice slightly.
First of all STANDING is NOT STILL.
Don't MOVE ON - but you must MOVE FORWARD.
Figure out what that means for you and keep taking steps forward, sometimes back but try to keep moving.
Thanks Cadet for correcting me. As I said, I am not an expert and my words are not always spot on.
LoneWlf, thanks for getting the point across. I'll do my best to keep remembering that.
Maika, it's interesting to hear you and some other men on this forum talk about confidence. In general when someone is laughing, smiling, having fun, and enjoying life that is more attractive than even the most attractive person looking miserable so I can see how that works. Also I can see how you'd go for someone that believes in themself and has qualities you admire. I personally don't think I could consider a relationship as more than friends with even the most confident man if I didn't feel a physical attraction although attraction is different for each person. You probably notice many beautiful and confident women but there are reasons why you'd choose certain ones over others right? Currently it feels irrelevant to me whether how I feel or act is attractive to men because I'm not looking to date and my interactions with my husband are too limited for him to really notice if I'm confident or not (although it would likely appear to him that I'm doing fine on my own). I mainly wish I could adapt to my current appearance and not mourn the loss of being younger. I know there's nothing I can do about age. We all have no choice about that. I just have to find some way to not feel so hurt that my husband can simply trade me for a 26 year old and say he's no longer attracted to me as his initial reason for walking away. When the person you love and care about most in the world says that it's difficult to not feel hurt. I'll try to be the best I can be at this time in my life though. When my finances improve I'll try to focus more on hair, wardrobe, etc.. to feel happier as well. I'll try to re-gain confidence but it'll have to be a new kind of confidence that's right for this age and for someone who's been discarded by their husband just after having a child. Maybe more like a survivor type confidence...we'll see.
Arsh, my husband hasn't found a job yet. He says he'll still pay his monthly amount at the end of this month but I'm not sure about what will happen after that. Next week I'm supposed to talk to one of my employers about a full-time position. I'll try asking if they offer 30 - 35 hours per week. I also hope my husband will find a job but this time around he doesn't have me helping him so he's probably making a lot of mistakes in what he says to recruiters and typos on his cover letters.
Kiro, thanks for taking the time to write! I'll try to read your updates more closely. Before I came to this forum I thought a lot of my husband's behavior had to do with him being Middle Eastern but here I see that it happens everywhere. I also thought only men can do this kind of thing but apparently not! There may be some immigration-related issues unique to my situation and my husband may be more immature due to living with his parents up until we married, but yeah, it's not just his culture or place of origin. I agree my husband doesn't deserve a loyal and loving wife after what he's done. I also did a lot of bad things and became a mean and spiteful person in my husband's presence but I never cheated or stopped my responsibilities as a wife. I also treated my husband like a king before we had our daughter. I'd make him elaborate meals, wrap his feet in hot towels and massage them with peppermint oil, surprise him with tickets to his favorite sports teams, co-sign on the cars he wanted, fill out his big family's complicated immigration forms, and the list goes on. Even after we had our daughter I'd still cook for him before myself, only took two weeks of maternity leave so I could keep contributing to my share of the bills, etc.. And I may make it sound like I'm really unattractive here but I wasn't that bad either, so yeah, he probably didn't deserve all that. Especially because when we met he wasn't even successful as a refugee when he tried to leave his country so he literally had nothing and could have died at any time in an attack like many of his friends but I admired who he was as a person and sponsored him to come to the US without even knowing for sure if we'd marry. His response after all that is "I never asked you for any of that." It's not true because he asked for many things but I guess that's what they call re-writing history when there's a fun 26 year old nurse with whom you work who just wants to have a good time without any commitment or responsibilities. I feel like I did let my husband go already. It's just in my mind I wish this isn't really who he is, and I wish he'd wake-up, and we're still married legally, and we still have a daughter, so it's not black-and-white. Perhaps I'm supposed to reach a point where I don't ever want him back but I committed to him as his wife before God and if he passed this time in his life and was truly sorry to the point where he'd do anything I asked him to do to try again, and he proved it over time, then I'd still give him another chance. We were great together before this happened. It was my husband who called me every 30 minutes when we weren't together, who told me I was the best wife in the world, and said how lucky he was, and said how all his friends envied him. This concept of waking up one day and becoming a different person is still difficult to grasp!
Cadet, thanks. I'm trying to keep moving forward even amidst the uncertainty. If we get divorced I'm thinking to take my daughter to Europe next summer and travel around for the whole summer and then maybe stay a few extra months for her to try a kindergarten in our favorite Scandinavian country. Then we'll come back here and I'll start working full-time regardless of my circumstances, get an Au Pair, and start the next chapter of our lives.
There are many shades of DBing and even standing.
I agree that no matter what you must move forward and live your life. Putting your life on hold while waiting for a wayward spouse is not only unhealthy, it's also not a good strategy as a spouse is more likely to be attracted back if you are out living an interesting life.
Now many of us will find out through this process that our WAS is not all we thought they were and decide that reconciliation is not our goal. I still can't get over Nicole's husband saying he wished their daughter had never been born, and I'm still suspicious about a man who got a green card with his marriage then bails just as his long education is starting to show fruit.
Still the truth is you are nowhere near ready to date at present Nicole so there's no problem with watching and seeing what your H does. But if I were you I wouldn't take him back unless he went to counseling and dated you for a year with total transparency. If you take him back too easily this WILL happen again.
KML, Yes. You are exactly right. I am moving forward now but last fall I was stuck while not working and had those health problems so now I can see the difference between waiting and moving forward. .
I do question a lot whether my husband used me for immigration purposes. A lot of my friends from his home country think he did. If he did he was smart about it. He didn't just leave the day after he became a citizen. He waited until his career was established and his family was here. Even then he waited until it was no longer beneficial for him to keep me. After we had our daughter we became a burden in his eyes, so he probably figured that's a good time to leave. No one really knows. Maybe he's mentally ill. Maybe he buckled under stress and just wanted to find an easy way out. Maybe he's deeply ashamed and he's sitting there right now considering coming back to reconcile. No one knows. None of my husband's friends or family members have revealed anything. The psychologist said my husband is lost in life. My gastroenterologist, who was my husband's friend, revealed that my husband opened up to him but he didn't offer specifics. His advice was to move on.
Yes I'm years away from dating, if ever, so I don't need to be divorced for that purpose. I also know you're right about this happening again if I take him back too easily because it already did. I took him back easily the first time and look where we are now?
My guess is we'll get divorced and my husband will live a playboy life until he finally settles down with a super attractive younger woman in ten years and I'll stay single for the next ten years while raising our daughter. Perhaps I'll be surprised and meet a new man someday, but I'm a very pragmatic and realistic person so I know even if I do meet someone again it won't be perfect. It's really great being young and innocent in your 20's imagining the fairy tale life you want to live. For some it really does happen, but for most life is a struggle no matter how hard we work or try to prevent bad things from happening.
There was one thing I forgot to mention to everyone - I was reading the old DB book again. I lost the newer one and accidentally ordered the old one. There's a long chapter in the beginning that talks about all the reasons why divorce is the wrong move. It was hard to read. It would convince anyone to work on their marriage if they read it. I need to re-order the new one to see what it says now. Reconciling with an unloyal wreckless spouse is a huge risk but getting divorced is no picnic either. That's another one of the thoughts that makes me keep waiting just a little longer until one option becomes much clearer than the other.
In general when someone is laughing, smiling, having fun, and enjoying life that is more attractive than even the most attractive person looking miserable so I can see how that works. Also I can see how you'd go for someone that believes in themself and has qualities you admire. I personally don't think I could consider a relationship as more than friends with even the most confident man if I didn't feel a physical attraction although attraction is different for each person. You probably notice many beautiful and confident women but there are reasons why you'd choose certain ones over others right?
Sure, absolutely there has to be physical attraction and some spark for me to consider being beyond more than friends. But what I was saying is that I'd pick someone with confidence and admirable qualities over someone who is conventionally pretty but has no substance. If it was just about hooking up, substance doesn't matter. And then it's a different issue. But for example, I'd go for someone like Cate Blanchett over a younger woman who is still coming into her own as a person and doesn't have the confidence and knows herself well. I know Cate Blanchett is still somewhat conventionally attractive, but that's not why I'd date her. There is something about the way she holds herself and her confidence that would pull me in way more than her age or how she measures up against a 20 something year old. That 20 year old would have to have her $hit together for me to consider dating.
I know women are way more scrutinized as they age compared to men, but look at Helen Mirren. I would definitely be out of her dating zone, but hell I'd go out with her. As a man who is approaching his 40s, I have adapted my sense of style to my age and I don't try to dress like a 20 year old. I have a more classic look and I don't pretend to be young. I appreciate women who do the same.
Anyways, this got longer than I thought. You need to stop comparing yourself to the younger woman. I know it is hard but you need to do that
Agreed. You know my ex married an Asian girl 19 years younger than him. I'm sure he enjoyed the novelty at first of this girlish young thing looking up to him. But I'd bet dollars to donuts he misses my smarts, sense of humor, and extreme capableness in a crisis. And while their age difference didn't seem so bad when she was 32 and he was 51, who knows if she'll still want him when he's 80 and she's a youthful 61? I know I sure as heck wouldn't be dating an 80 year old right now.
Maika, sorry I didn't want to take too much of your time on this subject! I appreciate what you wrote though. The Cate Blancett example is a good one. It's also nice that men like you exist who don't have a cut-off age of 26 for the women you might date. By the way your thread is closed so I couldn't comment there the last time. I guess there are no changes on your end? I hope you're doing well!
I still can't get over Nicole's husband saying he wished their daughter had never been born
Wow! I am really sorry Nicole you had to hear that from your H. I heard the same from my WW. Several times, she said that having kids was a big mistake and that people who decide not to have kids were much smarter. She said the same thing about marriage, commitment, religion, family, etc. She even questioned at some point the idea of monogamy!
Nicole - I am glad you brought up the subject because I think when the WS leaves for a younger person, it is so hard not to compare yourself to the young fling and how you might not measure up. I think your feelings on this are really legitimate. I am just saying that you want to separate the 'boys' from the 'men'. Just like I separate the 'girls' from the 'women'. What your H did is what I believe boys do - go after that shiny thing without truly understanding what they want from a partner and what complements them. If someone wants to play the hook-up game, that's a different story completely.
And from what I can read, when you go out in the dating world, you're looking for a man. There are tons of men like me IRL, and even on this forum, that have a more nuanced understanding of what they might want in a relationship or a partner and won't dismiss someone outright, unless things are very obviously not going to line up.
I'll give you an example - I want to be with someone who cares about health, nutrition, and being physically active. They don't need to look like lean cut Crossfit women, but are working towards a healthy lifestyle. And this is not for vanity reasons for me. I want to be with someone who supports me in this and that I can also support too. If a woman doesn't have that, it's not a complete deal-breaker for me, but they would have to bring a lot of other stuff to the relationship for me to not worry about the health stuff. And yes, there needs to be some physical attraction and spark, but that's at a deeper level and not just some lustful attraction, because that's just temporary and fleeting.
Yeh, I stopped at my last thread because there was nothing new to add. Things are pretty much the same. I am in the process of seriously contemplating D and giving myself a little bit of time before I file. I just want to make sure that I am coming from a good place for it rather than being impulsive.
The psychologist said my husband is lost in life.
I think this the best way to describe it. And you should leave it at that.
My guess is we'll get divorced and my husband will live a playboy life until he finally settles down with a super attractive younger woman in ten years and I'll stay single for the next ten years while raising our daughter.
Maybe and maybe not. But regardless, once you move on, you shouldn't worry what he does. But I also believe in Universal Justice. Every injustice done will have a price to pay at some point in time. He may find short-lived pleasures in some playboy relationships, but sooner or later, he will pay the price. This is why each of us needs to hold strongly to our values. It is so easy to fall in the same trap as the Wayward Spouse and start behaving in immature ways that we will regret. I agree that you are probably not ready for a new R, mostly because you don't want to hurt someone by committing too early.
For some it really does happen, but for most life is a struggle no matter how hard we work or try to prevent bad things from happening.
There is much more in life than relationships and marriage. What happens to a LBS is an opportunity to reevaluate our life and find meaning to our existence. If you are successful in this search, in my opinion, you will find meaning in trying to become a better person, building character, purifying your heart, and doing good in this world. The WAS chose selfishness. We should choose the opposite. Helping others. Becoming generous. Love. Etc.
Some guys want to dip their wick any old grease will do. Some women just drop their kecks and any old wick will do.
Sometimes a brain is attached but most of the time it's scrambled eggs for brains.
Wayward behaviour shrinks brains, add alcohol and those brains get dehydrated. And smoking and the myelin sheath shrivels. No nerves get fired. It's the Duh! syndrome.
The frontal cortex shrinks and the HPA withers. They can't help it poor darlings are deprived of resources.
And it's your fault of course, you had a beautiful child. Which may cost him resources that he could apply to wick dipping.
I want to take his snotty head stick it down a loo and flush. Kick his entitled butt at the same time.
Sparkly turd stuff.
V
Question is: Are we, LBSs, immune from such immature behaviors? Or do we just think we are? Could this have been us? And how do we protect ourselves from ever being that Wayward person? How do we make sure we never hurt someone the way our WS hurt us and hurt their children?
Ah Nicole, its very cute that you think youll be single for the next 10 years. You wont. Hugs to ya.
Nicole, just a comment on the "attractiveness issue".... I have found any number of times that as I got to know someone who had an amazing personality but wasn't very physically attractive, they became more and more physically attractive the longer I knew them.
Question is: Are we, LBSs, immune from such immature behaviors? Or do we just think we are? Could this have been us? And how do we protect ourselves from ever being that Wayward person? How do we make sure we never hurt someone the way our WS hurt us and hurt their children?
The majority of LBS that learn and use DB properly are ADULTS who love their kids, stable and marching forwards.
Not only that but they get into new R with adults.
Using DB and shifting makes waywardism remote. So remote I haven't seen it in 4 years here, not in an LBS who genuinely DB. Because DB is for the self.
We work on us. BTW I was a WAW from a WH.
So put your mind at rest, your brain won't go wayward. In fact the very thought of it will make you wanna puke.
Clean question-though why are you concerned?
V
Clean question-though why are you concerned?
I could answer this in so many ways. I guess there are so many assumptions made and so many different opinions, so much speculation and subjectivity that anything is possible.
I don't know your story, but what you just wrote is a perfect example. You say you were a WAW from a WH. I don't know what that means exactly, but I made an idea in my mind. I guess you mean that your husband was wayward, and so you left. Is that right?
This is a perfect example because he may see you as the WAW and him as the LBH. I'm just speculating here...
But this could apply to my W. Maybe, she thinks I am the WH, and she is a WAW from a WH.
I read somewhere that most people who go through a midlife crisis can't remember anything when they get out of it. I wasn't the best husband either. Who knows? Maybe I was in a midlife crisis myself for the past 10 years and my wife was the victim, and then she ended up deciding to walk away from me. See where I'm going with this? Sorry, that's just me overthinking everything. I should stay quiet.
Thanks everyone for your responses. You all show a lot of strength and wisdom despite going through these challenges in your own relationships. I'm out-of-time for today but I hope to respond tomorrow.
Maika, what you're looking for in a woman is very reasonable. I'm sure you many options. I hope if you decide to file for divorce it'll go smoothly. I hope you'll keep us all posted.
Kiro, You're right about everything. I grew up in an Amish and Mennonite area where service and helping others was emphasized. My life and career have been building on helping those less fortunate particularly overseas so I'm thankful that part of my life is rewarding.
Vanilla, ha ha. Yes that's one way of looking at it! That pretty describes my husband in the past two years.
Helena, I don't know. I didn't even date in highschool or for the first few years of college. Only had one boyfriend before getting married. I have little experience and don't see many options out there in my age range who would fit what's important for me but you never know. There is one other guy other than my husband who I can envision being with so maybe there's a third out there somewhere.
Jim, I can understand how that happens. You might meet someone that you wouldn't necessarily stop and look at on the street but getting to know them changes a lot of things. I also think just based on what someone wears and how they style their hair that day they could be more or less attractive. Attraction is a strange thing.
Kiro, I do think our spouses think of themselves as the victims even when they choose to abandon us. Their illogical thinking is one of the reasons why it's so hard to accept what they've done.
All, my husband called me this morning. He was very upset and crying. He apologized for getting fired from his job. He didn't say anything about reconciling but we talked for over 30 minutes which is the longest one-on-one conversation we've had in over a year. He said he's trying to find a new job and he'll still pay my costs at the end of this month. He says we can't sell our house because there are still some unfinished sections (which I find hard to believe but I haven't been there recently) and it needs a final inspection by the country which he can't afford to do right now. I think reality is setting in, but if we pass this crisis and he still doesn't want to reconcile then I doubt he ever will. In my mind for the past few weeks I've been thinking of how I wish to tell him this is the price he has to pay for ignoring his family and career to live a fantasy life but he was so broken when he called that I didn't really say much. I just kept it practical and didn't show much emotion. He has to figure this out himself and I'm not there to rescue him. I do hope he figures it out though because we need his financial support. We were planning to send our daughter to a certain private school when she starts kindergarten next year and I'll never be able to do that on my own. I'll probably start working full-time soon but will be up-front with the employer about my limitations. It'll be really hard on my daughter and I to take this step but I don't see much other choice unless I want to take her overseas but we just moved four times in the past 1.5 years so moving again isn't optimal.
Do you have a one bedroom apartment or two bedroom? If two bedroom, could you possibly trade free rent for after preschool child care, maybe a college student or retired woman?
Hi KML, it's two bedrooms. It'd be really uncomfortable to share such a small space with someone but I was considering trying it with an Au Pair until we can move to a bigger place. The problem is we did that in an apartment in NYC. The Au Pair was coming-and-going at all hours and her food and living habits were so different than ours. I have severe allergies so everything has to be unscented and that's not easy for most other people. My will also have a hard time adjusting to giving her room to someone else. I think an after-school nanny probably makes more sense right now but live-in help will be necessary at some point if I'm a totally single mom without any back-up support. There's an Afghan refugee my friend has been pushing me to hire. I may try that. First I need to make sure I have a real job offer since it's only been discussed verbally with my one employer. I hope this all works out somehow.
Be proud of where you stand Nicole. You are a great mother, being the stable parent for your D. Keep strong girl!
Nicole, please be careful here. Desperate times call for desperate measures. I can see him angling for cohabitation because he can't afford to live separate. Do not mistake that for a move at R. I don't want to see you hurt again if he were to move in only to abandon you both again once he got back on his feet. He may even "talk" like he wants to R to make it happen. Don't fall for it. Make him earn it by doing work over time that proves he is open to R.
Neffer, thanks! The positive aspect of having lived in war zones is that I'm familiar with instability and change. The actual breaking of the marriage is much worse than any financial problem.
Steve, my husband hasn't indicated he'd like to move in with us. He's living in our house far away and he'll go wherever he gets a job. He may get a new job 1,000 miles away or he may get one really close, but he has his family living an hour from us. They have a big house with a live-in maid and two spare bedrooms so surely he'll choose to live with them. If he asked to live with us I'd be shocked. I just can't imagine it ever happening unless we work towards reconciling first. Even when he was crying on the phone and apologizing this morning he still didn't say he wants to get back together. He didn't say he's sorry for hurting me or anything even close to that. He's only sorry that he's out-of-money and got fired. Your advice is completely right, I just don't see him being that desperate with his family nearby ready to house him.
Nicole - I don't know if you've taken a moment to reflect on your journey, and so let me quickly do it.
You went from a H who left you twice, with the last time ending up with some young hussy in Dubai, with moving from a dream home to a small apartment, with having serious health problems that made life let alone parenting very difficult, with not having proper employment, with all of this contributing to a miserable life - TO - surviving all of that with strength and resilience; moving cities and landing a job that you're good at and can make a great career out of; creating a stable life for your D; improving your health and becoming self-sufficient; and showing poise while your H continues to wreak havoc on his own life with implications on your D.
I know I have definitely missed the smaller details, but just look at that. You did this in a matter of many months, and I am sure they were long. But look at where you are now.
So, be confident and hold your head high. You've accomplished so much. Show the same grace and poise in face of H's madness and continue improving your life. Don't back slide and don't take him back easily EVER.
In Hannah Gadsby's latest stand-up on Netflix she said - "there is nothing stronger than a hurt woman who has rebuilt herself". That is you. Keep moving forward and one day you will have a partnership with someone that deserves you.
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