Re: Advice on My Scenario Pt. 14 - Phoenix Rising

Link to old Thread - http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2794359#Post2794359

RE POST FROM LAST THREAD:

What she does doesnt matter anymore. Again, its like a light switch, and someone or something finally switched it to "LIFE - ON" mode.

I know i am susceptible to extreme highs and lows, and i need to be cautious, but i am feeling invincible right now.

And the only other items this has happened was due to some sort of court meeting or something, not everyday events.

I feel i could slay the entire Roman Legion with a toothpick right now.

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For those who stuck with me through my anger and rudeness. Thank you.

To all i offended or upset, i am genuinely sorry. Last 2 weeks were dark for me.
The sun has risen, and that does not erase my trespasses, i hope to hear the respect and communication of those i pushed away through consistent positivity and advancement.

hope to earn*

i hope to earn them through consistent positivity and advancement.
Not how i pushed them away. That was just straight abrasiveness.

OK, don't worry about it. Just keep posting!

Steve, today i am not worried about anything beyond what to cook S3 for dinner! its gorgeous out. Looking forward to my excersize.

Also got a job offer today with a HUGE pay increase.

Choo Choo. All aboard the Karma Train!!

Id keep the news of that from your WW.

Oh, that reminds me. I have made a decision regarding communication with WW and her Coitery.

Communication with WW: I will only answer logistical questions about transport for S3 and other childcare stuff. That only. No inserting my opinion, or fishing for info. Just Yes, No, Who What, Where and "Oh that bill was $$$, please pay your half"

Communication with MIL, FIL & Step FIL: Literally the only reason i need to talk to them now is "Hey, im here to get S3" or "Text me when you're here to get S3"

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I forgot to mention that yesterday i got
MIL: "Hey, WW was wondering where S3's hiking carrier pack was"

I replied: "Ill get it next week" and left it at that.

Its at my parents, i will get it next weekend, and bring it down. I didn't need to answer that, i received the message and will get it for them. which is how i will handle things like that moving forward. If WW needs something she can ask me herself, and i will answer shortly and factually, and move on with my day.

Originally Posted By: Steve85

Id keep the news of that from your WW.

I havent been fully approved for it yet, and if i am i will not bring it up unless i am legally bound to do so.

I am also moving in 2 weeks, and she doesnt know about that yet either. Court papers say to notify within 15 days after the move. So thats what ill do.

Originally Posted By: OrangeK

Steve, today i am not worried about anything beyond what to cook S3 for dinner! its gorgeous out. Looking forward to my excersize.

Also got a job offer today with a HUGE pay increase.

Choo Choo. All aboard the Karma Train!!

How wonderful

So thrilled for you

V

Ahhh V!

I am glad you posted. I would dearly value your input on some of my recent interactions and legal sitch if you have time. Lovely to hear from you.

I hope all is well across the pond.

Shes persistant lately ill give her that.

Just Now.

WW: "Its my dads birthday today, i he would really like it if he got to talk to video chat with James if you guys have a moment. Just figured I'd mention it."

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1.) if thats the case he can contact me himself.
2.) given his recently discovered "History" i am not to compelled to do this.

Although i may still be viewing through a lens of bitterness. Recommendations on if i should reply to WW, or call FIL?
Im assuming no. As of now i dont plan on replying.

Orange

I am taking an exam on Wednesday as that means I can't support as much and give your posts my full attention then I will hold back until that's all done.

V

Thank you it is most appreciated. Best of luck on your exam!

Well i never responded to the text about video chatting withs WW"s Dad.
I felt guilty about it around 6:30-7:00pm last night, and called my mom to see what her opinion was.
She let me know FIL was checked in at a bar in FL.
He has health issues and shouldn't be drinking, my mother also said "WW could have called him on Sunday when she had him till 5 or she can call him tonight. Even in all the years you two were together she didnt ever call or video chat with me and S3. Ever. Not your responsibility anymore Son"

Moving on with my week. Super excited about my interview tomorrow. thatll be huge if i land that. Ill be able to get my own place and a new car in no time if that happens.

Started excersize routine again last night. Gotta stick with it this time!!

I have been talking with a friend who is into meditation and nature healing. Also helping A LOT.
Grounding has been super beneficial.

Still feeling good. Powering on.

Orange K, The Phoenix is crawling from the ashes. Time to fly.

Oh and me and my roommate are almost done building our blacksmith shop. i cannot wait for it to be done and filled with tools so we can start smashing steel.

This songs lyrics have been helping me get through. A bit coarse but accurate.

"Theres a place where everyone can be happy,
its the most beautiful place in the whole F***ing world.
Its made of candy canes and planes and bright red choo choo trains and the meanest little boys, the most innocent little girls.

And, you know, i wish that i could go there
its a road that i have not found
and i wish you the best of luck dear
drop a card or a letter to my side of town

Cause there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend
and Baby, I'm amazed at the hatred you can send
and you
painted my entire world
but I
don't have the turpentine to clean what you have soiled
and i wont forget it.

There's a place where everyone can be right
Even though you remain determined to be opposed
Admittance requires no qualifications
It's where everyone has been and where everybody goes
So please try not to be impaitent
for we all hate standing in line
and when the farm is good and bought
you'll be there without a thought,
and eternity, my friend, is a long F***ing time.

Cause there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend
and Baby, I'm amazed at the hatred you can send
and you
painted my entire world
but I
don't have the turpentine to clean what you have soiled
and i wont forget it."

Bad Religion - "You"

Queue the crickets i guess. lol

woke up feeling a bit angry about things today. Although it's different this time around it feels like it's coming from a long way off. About to go into that job interview so I'm feeling optimistic about that. just one of those mornings where I'm in a bit of disbelief that the woman who made me fall Head Over Heels never existed. started back up on my exercise and meal prep routine last night feeling good about that.

This is definitely a roller-coaster ride OK. So just when you think are over it you will panic, be angry, etc. I remember talking to one friend I confided in and I was on a high that day. Told this friend W was going to be the one regretting her choices and that I was good to move forward.

Of course the next day I was in the pit of despair and hopelessness. And just wanted to hold onto W for dear life.

You are well prepared, I like the action you are taking (exercise and meal prep). I encourage you to continue to find way to GAL. Staying busy is the key to remaining even.

Convo Update.

MIL: WW has some more paperwork to fill out for court. They are asking for your weekly gross income.

ME:Its listed in the existing paperwork

MIL: As Monthly, She was looking for an accurate Weekly amount as thats what they are asking for

ME: She can direct any questions not pertaining to childcare to the courts as i have done.

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I have already told MIL i would not discuss the divorce with her months ago,
A.) Not her business,
B.) If WW needs info she can either ask me herself or the courts.
C.) I only need to speak to MIL, FIL, Step-FIL about pickups and drop offs only.

Moving forward I am not sending any answer whatsoever to anyone unless it is regarding S3.

2 out of 3 times i have asked to speak with S3 on the phone i was ignored or denied.

I have not gotten reimbursed for 50% of the Dr. bill Yet.

Meeting with L got re-scheduled for Next Thursday (21st.)
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Moving on with my day

Job interview went well, i think i have a good chance there.

I agree with your stance on the main issue.

On the 2 out of 3 times, document it. Bring it up to your lawyer.

Give her at least a week on the reimbursement before you raise cain.

In fact, wait until the 21st and talk to lawyer about the non-payment assuming it is still an issue.

Steve,

thanks. Thats my plan. I am waiting to talk to L before I make any moves. Tons of questions for him.

I have feverishly documented everything since Jan. using my Sister in law as me un-official paralegal haha.
She has been awesome, considering i thought she was the crazy one for years thanks to WW's triangulations.

Steve, thanks for sticking with me. You are all ive got left here evidently.

Really bummed nobody is talking on thread anymore except Steve.
I had a dark 2 weeks, something i know you all have been through. Please forgive me. I miss and value your input, Sandi, Vanilla, MTB, Makia, AS, JuJu, and Ginger. I owe all of you an apology, i dont know what had me so bitter the past 2 weeks. I was doing better prior to that, and i stopped excersizing, and started allowing myself to slide back from DB, GAL and 180's, and i paid for it, both in personal pain and in pushing all of you away.

I offer my sincere apology and humbly ask for your assistance.

Ok just keep posting. Others will chime in when they feel they can contribute.

Orange, I was giving you time to get over your tantrum. Plus, you post like you're texting on a phone, and your threads go so fast I can hardly keep up. Just try to calm down and maybe read some other threads and share some thoughts with other newcomers. We have a lot of newbies who have joined lately. If you don't have someone's undivided attention, it doesn't mean you have been forsaken.

I second what Sandi just said.

I am also just busy with things in life and work and I've decided to pull back a bit from here. I'll chime in here and there and when I have something specific to contribute.

I am just reaching a new phase of detachment and my focus and determination towards my goals and vision has recently increased, so I am mindful about how I spend my time as there's lots to do.

Anyway, glad to hear things have evened out for you and there's always someone here to give sage advice.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Orange, I was giving you time to get over your tantrum.

I prefer the term "Dark Period" but i can understand.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Plus, you post like you're texting on a phone, and your threads go so fast I can hardly keep up.

Another Con of having a very boring desk job i suppose. It allows me to read / post a lot and quickly.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Just try to calm down and maybe read some other threads and share some thoughts with other newcomers. We have a lot of newbies who have joined lately. If you don't have someone's undivided attention, it doesn't mean you have been forsaken.

Sandi i can say with confidence I feel calmer in the last week or so than i have since BD. I will slow my roll at your reccomondation though.
I no longer have doubts or misgivings about D.
I no longer fret and worry about the "What if's"
I understand and accept that the woman i knew, and the real woman are 2 different people.

Chilling out, continuing to post, and GAL.

I mostly wanted you all to know i have felt badly about how i was reacting to people here. Again, it was a dark period for me.
I violated Rules #24, #33, and #37 badly.
Re focused. Re energized, and its for real this time.

Convo: Group Text with MIL and WW Yesterday
____________________________

WW: Sent picture message of notice from school showing the 2 weeks the daycare is closed, July 4th week and the last week in August.

ME: How would you like to handle the weeks he doesn't have school?

WW: Would your parents want to take him like they did last august? Also, Mom, do you have any days you want to use vacation time to watch him?

ME: My parents will likely want to take him, ill ask this weekend.

ME: I just checked the calander and both of those weeks are weeks that you would normally pay the tuition. How would you like to handle evenly splitting the weeks we do not have to pay?

-----------------2 Hours Pass
MIL: I noticed there was a typo on the dates of the week of july 4th. It says it begins the 3rd but that weeks begins on the 2nd.

WW: Yea, i think they copied and pasted last years, and didnt change the dates.

ME:I just checked the calander and both of those weeks are weeks that you would normally pay the tuition. How would you like to handle evenly splitting the weeks we do not have to pay?
-----------------------------------OVERNIGHT

ME: I talked to my parents and they can take him both or either week, whatever works.
Also in regards to the 2 weeks we dont owe tuition i was think we could do one of two things. Where both weeks fall on weeks you would normally pay, you could just pick one and pay the week prior, or we can split the payments prior to the vacations weeks, that way we both end up not paying a full week. How does that sound to you?
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I expect she will continue to ignore this question. She is greedy to a fault, sad that she is so materialistic.

I also couldnt help but notice how quick she was to want to push S3 off on other people, so she can have time to herself.

Make sure you bring up tuition with the L.

I am confused, does she work? Or does she stay at home? Why is she pushing off on other people and you aren't?

And why are paying tuition on an alternating weekly basis? Never heard of it being done this way. It is typically paid by month, doesn't matter whose "week" it is, and it is paid according to a formula like child support is. For instance, since lucky me made more money, I paid 57% and he paid 47%.

I really advise you to get this all hammered out with a lawyer under mediation. You guys need something solid that doesn't require much communication or hammering out between the both of you, because you are in still such an angry place to that.

You rarely make a post that doesn't assume something awful about your W or mind read her intentions. As a practice, just to be a little more peaceful in your mind, I would try to cut that down a bit. I understand she is this horrible awful woman with tons of bad intentions, but it just breeds the bitterness when you keep rehashing it all.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

And why are paying tuition on an alternating weekly basis? Never heard of it being done this way. It is typically paid by month, doesn't matter whose "week" it is, and it is paid according to a formula like child support is. For instance, since lucky me made more money, I paid 57% and he paid 47%.

I assume you meant he paid 43%.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

I am confused, does she work? Or does she stay at home? Why is she pushing off on other people and you aren't?

She works, has 2 days off a week. Why is she pushing it off on other people? beats me.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

And why are paying tuition on an alternating weekly basis? Never heard of it being done this way. It is typically paid by month,

My daycare does it weekly, however i asked the director of the daycare if she has ANY separated/divorced couples that alternate each week like we do and she said "No, Never"
Its just how things got set up when WW left, as she had always paid daycare while we lived together, i paid rent and utilities, she paid daycare, diapers and groceries.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

doesn't matter whose "week" it is, and it is paid according to a formula like child support is. For instance, since lucky me made more money, I paid 57% and he paid 47%.

I had filed a "Motion to clarify" with the Court last week. i should be hearing from the judge on it any day. I asked If i am responsible for both Daycare and Child Support?? There is a "Deviation" mentioned in the papers that i believe states i do not pay daycare anymore, but ill need it in writing from the court to prove this to WW.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

I really advise you to get this all hammered out with a lawyer under mediation. You guys need something solid that doesn't require much communication or hammering out between the both of you, because you are in still such an angry place to that.

I agree 100%, one of the many questions i have for him. Meeting coming up June 21st.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

You rarely make a post that doesn't assume something awful about your W or mind read her intentions. As a practice, just to be a little more peaceful in your mind, I would try to cut that down a bit. I understand she is this horrible awful woman with tons of bad intentions, but it just breeds the bitterness when you keep rehashing it all.

Sage advice ginger. I will work on that. I actually went and took "because she is Lazy and Selfish" off of my reply to the first question you asked on this post.

It is hard not to be bitter, and even harder not to spew all of the facts of the horrid things she has done to her, but she would deny them anyway. Its fruitless, no profit to be had. i have been trying to work towards a "Detached Apathy" but its still quite hard to be calm about whats been done to me. Its gotten easier, esp. in the last 2 weeks or so.
Last night i was a bit seething, a slow-low burn, not a rage, but i managed it well. When i get to that place now i take 15 min, do a set of my "Personalized Ti Chi", sit down in a meditative position, and envision breathing in clean, cold mountain air, and breathing out think, black, oily smoke. Cleansing myself of the Hate, Fear, Anger and Rage that this has brought up in me in the past. Then if i am feeling particularly angry still, i will hit the heavy bag or do push-ups/Shadow Boxing, and repeat the meditative excersize.

I want to be the best Dad and Co-Parent i can be. I want to be calm, unable to be coaxed into a reaction, and detached, to the point that when she tries to stoke my rage, all i produce is a sigh of resignation at best.
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My boss was being a jerk today, and I in the past have lost my composure at work. Today, i took 3 deep breaths, and moved on with my day.

Sounds like you're dong pretty good, Orange. I'm glad you set up a meeting with a L. I think you will be glad you did after you speak with them...

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

You rarely make a post that doesn't assume something awful about your W or mind read her intentions. As a practice, just to be a little more peaceful in your mind, I would try to cut that down a bit. I understand she is this horrible awful woman with tons of bad intentions, but it just breeds the bitterness when you keep rehashing it all.

Afterthought.
Its just tough to reach a point of apathy when this person is continually trying to spike my wheel as well.
I just gotta be the bigger person, and hopefully the excitement/enjoyment of harassing me will abate.

Originally Posted By: mtb1981

Sounds like you're dong pretty good, Orange. I'm glad you set up a meeting with a L. I think you will be glad you did after you speak with them...

Thanks Man, Honestly reading your sitch has helped a lot. I saw a lot of things you were handling far better than me, in a much more volatile sitch. Your temperament, or lack-thereof is damn impressive MTB. Change your online handle to ZenMaster

Im looking forward to the L meeting, the guy is a straight shooter, 20 years as a cop, 13 as a prosecutor. Hes got the Chops. Also gives a discount to Police/FIRE/EMS, so that helps the wallet.

I have lots of questions for him, hoping i sleep soundly next Thursday as my mind will hopeful have been put at ease about many things

WW got back to me with some suggestions on how to handle the 2 weeks of non payment as well as who will watch him while his school is closed.
They were all reasonable options, but i did notice none of them were anything resembling the options i put on the table. She seems to have to disagree with me on anything, but as she presented amicable options i just agreed and asaid "Sounds good, well figure out the details soon" and left it at that.

I am experiencing a bit of anger today, again, not as crippling as before. A slow burn.
Still struggling with the knowledge that ill never get answers, apologies, or justifications.
Still just burnt about how you can plan a life, claim love, and then throw it all away in a heartbeat, all while blaming me 100% and taking no responsibility for herself.
I know that is a struggle i will have to deal with forever, so i best just get used to it.

Quote:

They were all reasonable options, but i did notice none of them were anything resembling the options i put on the table. She seems to have to disagree with me on anything, but as she presented amicable options i just agreed and asaid "Sounds good, well figure out the details soon" and left it at that.

I see that as progress on your end. Good job!

Quote:

Still struggling with the knowledge that ill never get answers, apologies, or justifications.

Few LBH's ever get these from their WW.

Have you considered counseling, to help you deal with these feelings? I'm not trying to sound flippant, b/c I sincerely want you to find a healthy means of coping.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

I see that as progress on your end. Good job!

Thanks, it feels like progress.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Few LBH's ever get these from their WW.

Have you considered counseling, to help you deal with these feelings? I'm not trying to sound flippant, b/c I sincerely want you to find a healthy means of coping.

I know. For whatever reason not knowing is my biggest hang up. It plain Su*ks to be lied to so deeply and so extensively by someone i thought would never ever hurt me, and yet she hurt me more than anyone ever has or will. I don't pine for the return of the R anymore, i know that's never gonna happen and if it did it would just be more lies and abuse. Its just the degree and scale of the lies and deception that eat me up, plus her total disregard for the impact all of this would have on S3.

I increasingly believe that WW really is a textbook Cluster B Personality Disorder, which at the end of the day is sad because if its really true she will be stuck in this cycle forever, that she has already repeated time and time again, I was just the biggest Nuke she ever dropped to date.

MIL said months ago "She really needs to excel at this new job, so she doesnt get into another rut like this!!" She was yelling at me at the time, so i know it was a knee jerk reaction. This sentence combined with WW's "When I was single, in between you and EX, it was the darkest time in my life" have been the 2 key things to show how delusional her patterns are. They both (MIL and WW) see that there is a pattern there, but will not peel it all the way open to really try and fix it.
MIL is an enabler, with WW as her only child, she has constantly sheltered, rescued (when she Nukes her life) and coddled WW, and FIL isnt any better, he does the same thing, although i think for much different, much darker reasons.

Her whole situation is a god-damn tragedy, not even including my role in her life. It really honestly is so sad. I wish there was SOMETHING i could do.

To know that the person I thought i loved is such a sick, damaged, helpless and self destructive entity is so damn heartbreaking. My empathetic nature still wants to help her, see her become healthy and happy, but if she really is afflicted with a Strong Personality Disorder than there isnt much hope of that ever happening, and God knows I cannot prompt it into action.
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I have Seen 2 IC's,Stopped seeing the 2nd one just last week. I saw no progress with either, like none. I was making better progress on my own and through DB site. It was just turning into a money hole, which i cannot afford. I plan on seeking another out once i am moved into my brothers house and saving $$.
I honestly feel like the coping methods i have adopted myself are working better than anything the IC's had me doing.
I basically made my own version of Eastern style cleansing meditations, Ti Chi and my exercise routine.

Those things have helped me more than anything, and its show most with my time with S3. I am much more patient with him, and it shows in his reflected behavior.

OK, we've had this discussion before, but ICs are like underwear, you have to find one that fits just right. While I am disappointed that the 2nd one didn't work out, I am hoping you follow through on trying again once your money sitch improves.

I will caution you. ICs, the good ones, will tell you things that are difficult to hear. You have shown a penchant, in the past, to react poorly to that. I hope you are not firing them for shooting straight with you. An IC that just tells you what you want to hear is NOT a good IC.

That's all I'll say about that.

I do understand Steve, and i thank you for your cautionary words.
I am moving to the "city" where i live, so i imagine i will find more IC's and more readily available ones there. Im not giving up on IC, just doing what is working for me in the now. I know i wont fully recover without IC. Ill keep you posted on that. Ill be moved into my brothers by end of month.

I get that there is pain ahead in the path to healing. You must deride a burn before it can be treated, one of the most painful things one can medically endure. I see this as the same.

Originally Posted By: Steve85

I hope you are not firing them for shooting straight with you. An IC that just tells you what you want to hear is NOT a good IC.

Just re-read this. No i didnt S-can either of them for being blunt with me.
The first one was if anything, the opposite. He seemed legitimately uninterested and just kind of was very dry, boring and not engaging.

The 2nd one was better at what he did, but was difficult to get appointments with, overpriced, and had a tendency to be cold and impersonal. Again, i didnt feel like this guy actually CARED about helping me, i got a very "Just another day in the office" vibe from him.

Is there any Value in asking something like

"dont you think CO-parenting S3 would be a lot easier if we agreed that weve both moved on and stop acting like we hate each-other and are enemies?"

Originally Posted By: OrangeK

Is there any Value in asking something like

"dont you think CO-parenting S3 would be a lot easier if we agreed that weve both moved on and stop acting like we hate each-other and are enemies?"

None whatsoever. Don't do it...

Originally Posted By: OrangeK

Is there any Value in asking something like

dont you think CO-parenting S3 would be a lot easier if we agreed that weve both moved on and stop acting like we hate each-other and are enemies?

Dont say it. Just do it.

Originally Posted By: OrangeK

Is there any Value in asking something like

"dont you think CO-parenting S3 would be a lot easier if we agreed that weve both moved on and stop acting like we hate each-other and are enemies?"

The thing is, Orange, in your communications she IS acting civil. YOur interpretations and your presumed intentions are that you hate eachother or that she is being an enemy.

If you look at her texts, took them for face-value, she is being civil.

So, that being said, how would "not acting like enemies or like we hate eachother" look to you?

Originally Posted By: HelenaJ

Originally Posted By: OrangeK

Is there any Value in asking something like

dont you think CO-parenting S3 would be a lot easier if we agreed that weve both moved on and stop acting like we hate each-other and are enemies?

Dont say it. Just do it.

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ * infinity

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

Originally Posted By: OrangeK

Is there any Value in asking something like

"dont you think CO-parenting S3 would be a lot easier if we agreed that weve both moved on and stop acting like we hate each-other and are enemies?"

The thing is, Orange, in your communications she IS acting civil. YOur interpretations and your presumed intentions are that you hate eachother or that she is being an enemy.

If you look at her texts, took them for face-value, she is being civil.

So, that being said, how would "not acting like enemies or like we hate eachother" look to you?

While mostly true, I think both OK and her have been passive-aggressive at times. That never helps a situation and only hurts it. I am the king of passive-aggressiveness, so I struggle with it every single day.

Ok, thanks everyone. HelenaJ, thanks specifically. I will step back from that plan.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

The thing is, Orange, in your communications she IS acting civil. YOur interpretations and your presumed intentions are that you hate eachother or that she is being an enemy.

If you look at her texts, took them for face-value, she is being civil.

She has certainly been antagonistic and passive aggressive, i have been far from perfect myself.

Regardless there is value in what you say about me viewing things she says through a lens of anger, i will be mindful of that in the future.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

So, that being said, how would "not acting like enemies or like we hate eachother" look to you?

Not disagreeing on everything, not ignoring each-others questions, or requests to speak to our son. Not going back and forth about child support and Day care in court.
For her to drop the Rest. Order, we both know its unjustified. as i wouldn't act any different with her, shes moved on and so am i (moving), at least without the RO we could do mediation, and attend events for S3 if need be at the same time. Not inconveniencing her parents so we could do childcare swaps like normal adults.
Long term Goals i guess.

Ok - I agree with what Steve, G, and the others have said. I will just add that I think I told you early on that you may have to give a little bit to get a little bit. She has been snarky to you, no doubt. When she is you seem to be snarky right back which further escalates the situation and makes it worse. It also probably reaffirms in her mind her desire to leave.

She is going to test you....will you pass the tests? If she does not get a reaction out of you eventually she might stop.

You do need to pick and choose your battles.

You do need to show her with your actions and not your words.

You will be co-parenting your S with your EW for the next 15 years or so. What do you want that R to look like? Are your actions inline with those goals?

Originally Posted By: Joseph9

Ok - I agree with what Steve, G, and the others have said. I will just add that I think I told you early on that you may have to give a little bit to get a little bit. She has been snarky to you, no doubt. When she is you seem to be snarky right back which further escalates the situation and makes it worse. It also probably reaffirms in her mind her desire to leave.

Solid Copy Joseph. I agree with the last part too. good point.

Originally Posted By: Joseph9

She is going to test you....will you pass the tests? If she does not get a reaction out of you eventually she might stop.

I lost focus on going grey rock, i think i was distracted by finally having some type of communication with her again after so long. It made me lose my focus i gained during NC.

Originally Posted By: Joseph9

You do need to pick and choose your battles.

You do need to show her with your actions and not your words.

You will be co-parenting your S with your EW for the next 15 years or so. What do you want that R to look like? Are your actions inline with those goals?

[/quote]

I dont even plan on any battles moving forward, I will stick to boundaries, but im not fighting about them. If we reach an impasse i will simply stand my ground in a business like fashion. I am hoping to reduce impasses as well.

Goal - Be amicable co parents that can be at the same functions and support S3 in a loving and supportive manner.
My actions have not been as in line with this as they could be, See above.

Keep on keeping on man......I view myself as the Rock of Gibalter. The storm can be angry, the wind howling, the clouds dark, the waves crashing all around me but there I am taking blow, after blow, after blow, never waivering. Like Fonzie....calm, cool, and collected.

Always keep your goals in mind before responding to her. Are you responding from a place of love or anger? Anger will never win.

I have been knocked on my heels but I have never yelled, sent a nasty text, punished her or purposely tried to make her life difficult. I have been short at times, maybe more reserved, maybe not as jovial but never the other.

Your gonna have to absorb some body blows......

Remember boundaries are to protect you they are not to punish her. For example, my EW told me about OM and then started to go into detail telling me about him. I stopped her and told her that I did not want to hear anything more about him unless it has something to do with my girls. That is my boundary. she said she understood.

Keep moving forward OK!

Just to piggy back........it might help if whenever you are posting about your WW, you not use derogatory adjectives.

. At first, I thought it was your way of getting the anger out of your system. However, it begins to really affect the overall attitude about most everything around you. Plus, you are armed & ready for battle whenever you correspond with her. You are looking for every snare trap she sets. She is doing the same thing, and neither of you plan to let the other one get by with a thaaaaang. So naturally, the messages are going to have a sharp edge.

As difficult as it might be at times, I hope you'll practice every day to avoid using unflattering words when speaking about the mother of your child. Here's the thing, Orange. It's not a matter of whether or not she deserves it, b/c it is not a reflection of her...........as much as it is a reflection of you. In order to get rid of some of the anger and resentment, start with the words you use.

((hugs))

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

You rarely make a post that doesn't assume something awful about your W or mind read her intentions. As a practice, just to be a little more peaceful in your mind, I would try to cut that down a bit. I understand she is this horrible awful woman with tons of bad intentions, but it just breeds the bitterness when you keep rehashing it all.

Quote:

Sage advice ginger. I will work on that. I actually went and took "because she is Lazy and Selfish" off of my reply to the first question you asked on this post.

It is hard not to be bitter, and even harder not to spew all of the facts of the horrid things she has done to her, but she would deny them anyway. Its fruitless, no profit to be had. i have been trying to work towards a "Detached Apathy" but its still quite hard to be calm about whats been done to me. Its gotten easier, esp. in the last 2 weeks or so.
Last night i was a bit seething, a slow-low burn, not a rage, but i managed it well. When i get to that place now i take 15 min, do a set of my "Personalized Ti Chi", sit down in a meditative position, and envision breathing in clean, cold mountain air, and breathing out think, black, oily smoke. Cleansing myself of the Hate, Fear, Anger and Rage that this has brought up in me in the past. Then if i am feeling particularly angry still, i will hit the heavy bag or do push-ups/Shadow Boxing, and repeat the meditative excersize.

I want to be the best Dad and Co-Parent i can be. I want to be calm, unable to be coaxed into a reaction, and detached, to the point that when she tries to stoke my rage, all i produce is a sigh of resignation at best.

Sandi, i agree. Ginger brought this up the other day ^^

It comes out too naturally, i need to actively think about what i am saying about her, as well as how i speak with her on texts.

Its a state of mind thing, if i am constantly thinking of her as some enemy or opponent, that is how i will treat her in interactions, as well as how i will paint her here.

I imagine she still may think i am chomping at the bit to hold her accountable, and ask for explanations and so on, as that's where I was when the RO was put in place.
I hope through continued interactions she may realize this is not the case and become more comfortable in dealing with me.
I Still believe the RO being extended was her way of avoiding having to be faced with the ramifications her actions, out of sight out of mind. However where that used to enrage me, i think if she feels more comfortable in that position, feeling secure in her legally controlled separation from me that's fine with me. We need the time and space to eventually co parent.

OK I want to commend you on your handling of the recent constructive criticism! Well done my friend, I think you are in a much better place this week than you were last week.

Thanks Steve. It all feels very different recently.
Something happened last weekend. Something let go, or abated. I just want peace. I am so done fighting, arguing, hoping and analyzing. I just want peace.
I feel like an old soldier, who has tired of the weight of a sword in his hands, and the memory of all the blood he has cleaned off of it.

Swords to Plowshares.

I have had small flashes of anger with the Sitch/WW, but very manageable ones.

Its all just a shame, i wish she had been real, but ill find my happy ever after someday.

Upon commenting on MTB's thread, i came to a conclusion, or at least a hypothesis.

Sandi/Vanilla,
Do you believe my wife to be WW, WAW, MLC or none of the above, and why?

Lonely. Missing her.
i know thats fruitless, but damn i miss the golden period of the love bombing, which is unhealthy to miss. i know it was a narcissistic trap, why do i miss it?

Its amazing how something unrelated can propel my entire mood in a different direction. I just had a stressful client at work, and now i have been inundated with thoughts about WW, our dead R and our destroyed family that will not abate.

Totally unrelated issues, but yet one causes the other to run into overdrive.

Trying to center myself through soothing music.

I poured so much love into everything about my family, and now i cannot remember the last time WW had told me she loved me without being prompted by me, it was so long ago. It might have even been in our vows, was the last time she said "i love you" without "Too" at the end of it.

It hurts to know that when she stopped loving me, it was so complete and instant, and its never, ever coming back.

I am not qualified to weigh in about all the personality disorders and mental illnesses. All we have is what you've shared with us and what we may recognize or identify as being something that looks familiar. Her actions resemble a wayward wife. I do not believe she is a WAW, in the way I determine a WW from a WAW.

I have a "sense" that she is hiding something from her past. Maybe it's just me giving her the benefit of doubt. You may never know what happened or what makes her repeat this behavior pattern. I think her mother either doesn't know, or doesn't want to know the truth. The whole story about her sounds too strange to be "normal", but that's JMHO.

Here's the thing.....she is either messed up as the result of something, or she was born messed up.........or she is someone you would not want to see your son bring home to meet the family. By that, I mean she leaves a path of destruction, and people are gling to get hurt.

You have not had too many positive things to say about her parents......so maybe she's just a reflection of her role models. Don't be offened, and don't think I am trying to sound like a ten cent philosopher.......but this thought comes to me when I think of her. Without a conscience, what separates us from the other animals? What are her values? What does she respect? Does she have a moral code of conduct? What makes her tick? After three years, it seems you would have known these things about her, and if she was that clever at deceiving you........then I can't help but wonder if there is more to the story than the common WW we see around the board. Any other mental issues make the WW more complexed.

As I once told you, there have been other guys who were just as badly deceived as you were. I know two men (different stories) very well who thought they were marrying the perfect girl, and 2-3 days after the wedding the W was gone.....no note, no explanation, no good-bye....nothing. After contacting the authorities, the only message received was the women just didn't want to be M. And these gals acted like they would simply die if they couldn't M these guys! Very strange. There are several guys I know who got M and the next day discovered the girl was nothing like she pretended before the wedding. Not the same personality, or anything like before the wedding. Not that any of this helps you, except to know it did not happen only to you.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

I am not qualified to weigh in about all the personality disorders and mental illnesses. All we have is what you've shared with us and what we may recognize or identify as being something that looks familiar. Her actions resemble a wayward wife. I do not believe she is a WAW, in the way I determine a WW from a WAW.

Thank you. I need to stop thinking that there is some slight 1% chance of her changing and coming back. I need to stop wishing and hoping.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

I have a "sense" that she is hiding something from her past. Maybe it's just me giving her the benefit of doubt. You may never know what happened or what makes her repeat this behavior pattern. I think her mother either doesn't know, or doesn't want to know the truth. The whole story about her sounds too strange to be "normal", but that's JMHO.

I agree, i still believe her father did BAD things to her, and KNOW he did it to WW's half sister in his 2nd Marraige many years later. I think her mother does know, she is the most non-confrontational person i know. When FIL explained his divorce as "I left on business, and came home to an empty house with divorce papers" i tihnk MIL found out FIL was doing BBADDD things, and rather than cause a huge deal, and have him arrested, she just waited till he left, and bailed with the quickness. Rather than ever deal with it, she just turned her head the other way for 25 years.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Here's the thing.....she is either messed up as the result of something, or she was born messed up.........or she is someone you would not want to see your son bring home to meet the family. By that, I mean she leaves a path of destruction, and people are gling to get hurt.

She is. I just want her to get help. I know she may still be riding the limerence wave right now, and relishing in her hatred of me (that she manufactured), but i know the walls of reality will crash down eventually. I dont want her to have to go through that pain, but she needs it.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

You have not had too many positive things to say about her parents......so maybe she's just a reflection of her role models.

Her dad was always really great to me, loving and generous, even after BD when i was confiding in him and looking to him for help.
Then i found out about what he did back in the day, and put together the pieces for what i believe he did to WW as a child. I have had people say to me he "is too nice, like hes hiding something"
Her mother, is just a passive aggressive, fake person.

Fakeness, Lies, false images - learned from mom.
Manipulation, and Narcissism - Learned from Dad.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Don't be offened, and don't think I am trying to sound like a ten cent philosopher.......but this thought comes to me when I think of her. Without a conscience, what separates us from the other animals? What are her values? What does she respect? Does she have a moral code of conduct? What makes her tick?

Without a conscience, what separates us from the other animals?
Intellect. Intellect without conscious breeds calculated selfish deceit. A dangerous brew.

What are her values?
I thought i knew - Last year i would have said, Family, Love, Nature, and Compassion
Now, id say, Status, what others think of her, How she can get ahead, greed. (not trying to slander her, its just what i see)

What does she respect?
Individuality, Fashion, Trends,
People who she sees as elevated from her, or people who supply her with things.

Does she have a moral code of conduct?
I dont think she would cause anyone PHYSICAL pain or harm. Other than that, she doesnt seem to. I have seen enough evidence to show she will throw anyone aside for her own happiness.

What makes her tick?
Attention, Positive or Negative. One-Upping, Making herself feel good, even if that means putting someone down to do it.
She also feels good getting attention from doing things like making people food, baking, anything she can do for someone else that will cause a "Oh my god thank you, this is so yummy/creative, you are really talented!"
She is very self conscious, very bad at handling criticism

Answering this question made me really feel like Narcissism is really the case. it fits too well, too well to be a coincidence.
The one disorder she is very unlikely to even seek treatment for, and one of which treatment can be largely ineffective.
A shame...I want my Helen of Troy back...

Originally Posted By: sandi2

After three years, it seems you would have known these things about her, and if she was that clever at deceiving you........then I can't help but wonder if there is more to the story than the common WW we see around the board. Any other mental issues make the WW more complexed.

Shes definitely still hiding things, from me, from her parents, from her friends, from OM. Its all she knows to do.
Its a self defense mechanism, she cant handle someone criticizing her, or calling her out for her behaviors. Deny, Lie, Project and Gaslight. Its all she knows. It must be EXHAUSTING. No matter how much i told her she was amazing and perfect, she knew the truth and it ate away at her. I think she may destroy her relationships before the Guy can see her for who she truly is, again a defense mechanism. Better to salt the earth and destroy everything than be SEEN and abandoned.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

As I once told you, there have been other guys who were just as badly deceived as you were. I know two men (different stories) very well who thought they were marrying the perfect girl, and 2-3 days after the wedding the W was gone.....no note, no explanation, no good-bye....nothing. After contacting the authorities, the only message received was the women just didn't want to be M. And these gals acted like they would simply die if they couldn't M these guys! Very strange. There are several guys I know who got M and the next day discovered the girl was nothing like she pretended before the wedding. Not the same personality, or anything like before the wedding. Not that any of this helps you, except to know it did not happen only to you.

Oh, she NEEDED this wedding, she planned it METICULOUSLY. Then complained it didn't go the way she wanted, even though it all went without a hitch. Nothing is ever good enough, So i think when it was all said and done, she was pretty quick to be like "oh well, ill do better next time"
I never mattered, i was just there to make a baby, pay her rent, support her, and be a body to get married to for attention. Or so it seems.
She expects and feels entitled to a fairy tale life, like she seems to legit expect her life to turn out like a Disney Movie.

I know that all sounded very negative about her, not my intent.
Typing this all breaks me heart.
I wish it weren't so.
I wish she knew she didn't have to pretend, or try to impress people.
I loved her just like she was, but since i didn't treat her the same over 5 years as i did the first month we were together, it became stale and boring. I think she expected constant praise, admiration, and limerence.

Also, i dont know if this sheds any light, but all of 2017 (while she was already with OM)

She used Sex like a carrot on a stick to get me to do what she wanted. She would deny it for weeks, then offer it like a barganing chip to get me to take S3 off her hands for an hour, or if i could make dinner for her etc.
Disgusted by that. Considering she had already been F***ing OM for months by then.

Explains her "Edge of the bed" routine, or even the times i called her out for literally cringing when i touched her. I think she felt like she was cheating on OM with me........

Originally Posted By: OrangeK

I think she felt like she was cheating on OM with me........

Very astute OK. This is exactly right. A good friend of mine cheated on her husband. Thanks to my counseling she ended the A with the OM (who was a total piece of garbage) and stayed with her husband. While in the midst of the A, she described intimacy with her H in exactly those terms, cheating on OM. Especially since OM was insanely jealous of her, even with her H. (As I said, he is a piece of total garbage. I was friends with him many many years ago, now I won't even acknowledge him if I ever am around him (only once since all this happened years ago).)

OrangeK,

Your wife's personal disorder characteristics resemble some of mine that I faced with my wife. However, I don't know if you can call that narcicissm. My wife's mother (my MIL) is clinically diagnosed with bipolar mood disorder. And my wife shares some of those traits from her mother although she has not been diagnosed as such. But a few years ago she was diagnosed with dysthymia and she used to take SSRIs as medication. She was fine until she stopped it and became a walk away and now hates me.
We had our own SSM issues that i have discussed in my thread which is partly my fault too.
I will list some of her characteristics and see if these match your and let me know your thoughts-

1) She used to verbally and emotionally abuse me until i felt very downtrodden and crying. Only then she used to feel releived and console me.
2) Highly moody - she used to happy and moments later her mood swung to unhappiness treating me like dirt with abuse and discontent.
3) Never ever asked apology for anything wrong that she did. Expected me to apologize even for her faults / misdoings.
4) Sometimes disrespect me in public (not in front of friends) but general public by raising her vouce against me.
5) Didn't socialize with me or gel with me well. Whenever i approached her intimately she allowed me to be intimate with her but never ever allowed sex. Used to give some or the other lame excuse and postpone it.
6) Hardly expressed her heart feelings. Did not allow me to express any of mine. Never once asked me how i felt when i was sad or upset. Always assumed that i was sad because of her.
7) Used her family (parents and brother) to rally against me and threaten separation every time an argument happened.
8) very discreet with money- never allowed a joint account, didnt even change her maiden last name to mine.
9) most of all, no trust in her heart for me. Mostly suspicious. Thought i never loved her or cared for her. Even to this date she doesn't trust me.
10) Thought that i was gay at one point. She had lingering thoughts and had doubted me a lot quite some time until i gave an ultimatum and she fibally stopped calling me that. But i dont know if her suspicion still holds good.
11) One day During Separation, when i apologized and validated something to her - she said she was vored of hearing same things again and again and wanted to hear something new from me!!!
12) She never posted pictures of us together on facebook or any social media. She was may be ashamed of me or something.
13) worst of all every ocassion like our birthday, valentines or marraige anniversary was mostly a disaster as she used to pick up sone or the other fight / quarrel and make a miserable day out of it.
14) She said she never wanted to have a kid from a family like mine and if she ever did she would desert the kid in streets and leave me for good. This hurt me a lot. Fortunately she left me for good.
15) Hardly discussed about me with her friends. If she ever did it was generally neutral or negative.
16) on a positive note she liked my company, spendimg time with each other, going out together, however that spark was always non existent.

Do you feel your wife resemble any of the above characteristics? Do you feel these are narcissistic tendencies? Or do you want to list some of her characteristics you felt she was very narcissistic about?

Wow, Nutcracker, if you had posted this in your own thread, I missed it. This sounds like a completely different story. Not that it would have changed anything, but I wished you would have (early on) made this list of issues with your W in your thread. It just gives us a much clearer view of the situation.

Sorry for the hijack, Orange. This is an example of why I often ask newcomers to give us more information.

Thanks Sandi2. But all this info is in the first thread So based on your views, do you still think my wife loves me or its just she is making it up?

Originally Posted By: OrangeK

Also, i dont know if this sheds any light, but all of 2017 (while she was already with OM)

She used Sex like a carrot on a stick to get me to do what she wanted. She would deny it for weeks, then offer it like a barganing chip to get me to take S3 off her hands for an hour, or if i could make dinner for her etc.
Disgusted by that. Considering she had already been F***ing OM for months by then.

Explains her "Edge of the bed" routine, or even the times i called her out for literally cringing when i touched her. I think she felt like she was cheating on OM with me........

I want to start by saying I agree with Steve. You are handling what we are saying, listening to use it to help you. I think you are ready for some of the questions I am going to ask to help you look inward.

You say she dangled sex like a carrot to get you to do things like watch S3 for an hour or to make a meal.

Did she feel she needed to do this? Did she try first by asking you to help with the meals? Did she kindly say "I really need some me time, I want to get get my nails done, could you take S3 for an hour?" ANd if she did ask nicely, was she met with criticism? Judgement? Did she feel invalidated for needing and asking for these things? So then she felt like she had to take out her arsenal, like sex?

I am not saying you did these things, I am honestly asking. Is there anything somewhat honest about what I am saying?

The times I have known women to do this, is when they try asking and directly communicating and they get shot down. I did it. (although I didn't use sex). Anything I asked I was made to feel like I was being unreasonable or shouldn't feel or need what I did. I was made to feel like an inadequate needy person. So I became awfully passive aggressive. I didn't know what else to do. It wasn't the solution, but I was at a loss.

Sometimes it is good to look to ourselves to see why our partners may have been doing what they are doing. It doesn't make it right..... I wasn't right to act the way I did.

Just like the communication. Lead by example. Words are cheap. If you stop being passive aggressive and bitter, perhaps she will be too.

I will say when I felt judged by my ex (which was pretty much all the time) that when I turned on my passive aggressiveness.

Happy father's day, byt the way.

Again, when you answer these questions, take the OM out of the picture. Consider your interactions only.

Originally Posted By: Nutcrac

I will list some of her characteristics and see if these match your and let me know your thoughts-

1) She used to verbally and emotionally abuse me until i felt very downtrodden and crying. Only then she used to feel releived and console me.

My WW was never outwardly mean until after BD. In beginning of relationship she was super super nice, sweet, kind, giving, compassionate. Then she just got colder and more distant.
I recognize now she seemed guilty for a short time the day i came home after she was out sleeping with OM the night prior before i knew of affair, but that passed quickly and I was still sadly clueless at the time.

2) Highly moody - she used to happy and moments later her mood swung to unhappiness treating me like dirt with abuse and discontent.

Definitely yes on the mood swings, but again different. She would be dissatisfied with something, usually getting bored with whatever we went out and did that day, and would get very quiet and distant for the rest of the day. Nothing ever seemed to be good enough to ensure a good day or being happy all day, only at the very start of R.

3) Never ever asked apology for anything wrong that she did. Expected me to apologize even for her faults / misdoings.

I assume you mean "Never apologized for anything she did"
And if so, correct. My WW has never apologized for a single thing that i can think of, and also projected a lot on me that i ended up taking the blame for that was not my fault. Such as the fact that she was having an affair.

4) Sometimes disrespect me in public (not in front of friends) but general public by raising her vouce against me.

Again, my wife was always very quiet, and non-confrontational.

5) Didn't socialize with me or gel with me well. Whenever i approached her intimately she allowed me to be intimate with her but never ever allowed sex. Used to give some or the other lame excuse and postpone it.

This seems like two seperate things, ill answer it thusly.
5-a) Didnt Socialize - Once she "checked out" our conversations took a down turn, rarely did we laugh, or even chat together.
5-b) Sex also died off in its intesity, frequency and effort. Towards the end i could see how she was using it as a leverage tool to get me to do what she wanted (see my recent post with Ginger won this)

6) Hardly expressed her heart feelings. Did not allow me to express any of mine. Never once asked me how i felt when i was sad or upset. Always assumed that i was sad because of her.

No communication, WW would only ever say "im fine" if i asked what was wrong, or "nothing, but there will be if you keep asking"
As far as my feelings, she used to be very attentive to them, then once we got married, all that was gone.

7) Used her family (parents and brother) to rally against me and threaten separation every time an argument happened.

WW ran off to bolthole at her moms and basically hid from any conversation or responsibility after the affair came to light.
What you are describing is classic triangulation.

8) very discreet with money- never allowed a joint account, didnt even change her maiden last name to mine.

Big similarity here, it shows pre-meditation to marital destruction IMHO. WW never wanted to join accounts, always had some tangible exsuse for not wanting to do so. Also she always kept her moms address as her mailing address, throughout our entire R. Which i now realize is suspect. My WW did change her name but seemed reluctant to do so at first. Now i hope she changes it back.

9) most of all, no trust in her heart for me. Mostly suspicious. Thought i never loved her or cared for her. Even to this date she doesn't trust me.

No similarities here. WW never spoke of not trusting me, and knew i loved her.

10) Thought that i was gay at one point. She had lingering thoughts and had doubted me a lot quite some time until i gave an ultimatum and she fibally stopped calling me that. But i dont know if her suspicion still holds good.

I dont think she ever thought you were gay. this sounds like very extreme gaslighting to me. Did she ever have you thinking you might be gay, or that you really didnt love her after she told you that you didnt love her? Look up gaslighting.

11) One day During Separation, when i apologized and validated something to her - she said she was vored of hearing same things again and again and wanted to hear something new from me!!!

Because you werent standing your ground, you were giving in and that looked weak to her, beta. I did the same stuff, they dont want a begging, i dont think that sounds like validation either. Sounds like you let her blame you for something, and she got pissed when you didnt stand up for yourself.

12) She never posted pictures of us together on facebook or any social media. She was may be ashamed of me or something.

My WW used to post stuff about me and S3 ALL THE TIME. then it just shut off. Shes not ashamed, she doesnt want to be seen with you and wants to appear single.

13) worst of all every ocassion like our birthday, valentines or marraige anniversary was mostly a disaster as she used to pick up sone or the other fight / quarrel and make a miserable day out of it.

Yes, they create arguments to ruin what should be nice things. WW did this on our anniversary, when i was trying to show her a good time and get us out of "the rut". this was just weeks before i found out about affair. She was already checked out, and wanted to make sure i didnt feel like i made progress so she found a reason to ruin the evening.

14) She said she never wanted to have a kid from a family like mine and if she ever did she would desert the kid in streets and leave me for good. This hurt me a lot. Fortunately she left me for good.

Again, deliberately hurtful things. WW told me that she "didnt want to buy a house with me" when we had driven around all weekend looking at "dream homes".
Its all part of the devaluation process.

15) Hardly discussed about me with her friends. If she ever did it was generally neutral or negative.

Smear campaign. She is justifiying leaving you to her peers before she actually did it, so they would "you go girl" her through the whole breakup period. Flying Monkeys.

16) on a positive note she liked my company, spendimg time with each other, going out together, however that spark was always non existent.

Was that during times you were doing what she wanted to do, or spending money on her?
If you are doing those things, shes acting pleasant but you can tell the spark is still gone, sounds like being used to me. I would know lol.

Originally Posted By: Nutcrac

Do you feel your wife resemble any of the above characteristics?
See above answers.

Do you feel these are narcissistic tendencies?
I hate to say it but yes, a lot of them are. Your wife sounds more overt than covert, but yes.

Or do you want to list some of her characteristics you felt she was very narcissistic about?

Love bombing in early part of Relationship. Everything moved so fast and we fell in love almost instantly. She was literally my ideal woman. Got me hooked and addicted to her. We both thrived in the Limerence stage.

Talking to her ex behind my back trying to make him jealous.

Triangulating people close to me in my life so they would be at a distance, so all my attention could be focused on her.
Even when we had roommates at 2 different apartments, she alienated them so they were never around. Before i knew it none of my friends came around or called me, and i never realized she didnt have any friends. HUIGE RED FLAG. If a person has no "lifers" or friends they have had a long time, look into their past for two or more social circles, usually based around whoever they were dating at the time that now all dislike this person. They choose a mate, screw with people in that social circle then completely disconnect and move on to another one. Example: WW had "Nuked" her previous social circle before me and "was in a dark spot" before we met, as she had nobody to feed her attention. Then we met and fell in love, she became friends with all my friends, and began doing odd things like copying their social media posts, and absorbing personality traits from people. Anyone who called her out on this was villifed and socially attacked by her. Then when she "checked out" of our MR, she had no new source of a new social circle. Then she got a new job. This gave her all she needed, new "Friends" and a new target to begin the cycle of limerence with again.

Once she checked out, She begagn the Devalue / Discard cycle.

Compulsive Liar, Blame Shifting, Triangulation, Gaslighting, Stonewalling, Complete lack of empathy, remorse or guilt.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Wow, Nutcracker, if you had posted this in your own thread, I missed it. This sounds like a completely different story. Not that it would have changed anything, but I wished you would have (early on) made this list of issues with your W in your thread. It just gives us a much clearer view of the situation.

Sorry for the hijack, Orange. This is an example of why I often ask newcomers to give us more information.

Totally Ok with the Hijack, going back to his Thread to discuss now.
Check the list i made, and Sandi, i know we talked about not talking down about her, take that list from a non-bias standpoint. I was not trying to be insulting to WW at all, just stating the facts as i experienced them.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

I want to start by saying I agree with Steve. You are handling what we are saying, listening to use it to help you. I think you are ready for some of the questions I am going to ask to help you look inward.
Lets do this, and i will be honest about myself, and WW. OM will not be a factor in this post as you asked.

You say she dangled sex like a carrot to get you to do things like watch S3 for an hour or to make a meal.

Did she feel she needed to do this? - No, i enjoy cooking, and was always asking about what else could be done around the house. She only ever cooked and cleaned during her "Mask On" phases, Once she checked out she did none of these things. The best example i can recall of the "Carrot on a stick" maneuver was towards the end of last summer, things had been bad between us all year, we were at the beach with S3, i commented she looked amazing in her bathing suit, she then said she wanted to lay in the sun and be left alone and asked me to take S3 away from her so she could relax, said "ill make it worth it for you later, ill keep the bikini on for you"
As i walked away with S3, excited i might actually get attention from my wife, i glance back to see her on her phone.

Did she try first by asking you to help with the meals? She never had to, I was always good about splitting house work and parenting duties.

Did she kindly say "I really need some me time, I want to get get my nails done, could you take S3 for an hour?" - No, she never communicated any type of unhappiness, she just began showing it. She took time to do what she wanted to do, and didnt ask permission to do it.

ANd if she did ask nicely, was she met with criticism? Judgement? Did she feel invalidated for needing and asking for these things? So then she felt like she had to take out her arsenal, like sex?
Again, I dont belive so. I always encouraged she spend time with or friends, or take care of what she wanted to do. I said that she spent so much time working or parenting she deserved it. She did some yoga classes and came home glowing, i told her she looked and sounded amazing and i looked forward to her doing more as she had finally found an activity she liked to get out and do.

I am not saying you did these things, I am honestly asking. Is there anything somewhat honest about what I am saying?
I know it probably sounds like i am trying to be like "No Ginger, i was alwyas the perfect little husband i did nothing wrong!!"
But i have been totally honest about all you have asked.

The times I have known women to do this, is when they try asking and directly communicating and they get shot down. I did it. (although I didn't use sex). Anything I asked I was made to feel like I was being unreasonable or shouldn't feel or need what I did. I was made to feel like an inadequate needy person. So I became awfully passive aggressive. I didn't know what else to do. It wasn't the solution, but I was at a loss.

Sometimes it is good to look to ourselves to see why our partners may have been doing what they are doing. It doesn't make it right..... I wasn't right to act the way I did.

Just like the communication. Lead by example. Words are cheap. If you stop being passive aggressive and bitter, perhaps she will be too.

I will say when I felt judged by my ex (which was pretty much all the time) that when I turned on my passive aggressiveness.

Happy father's day, byt the way.

Ill end by giving some insigt in to what she did bring up as issues from my half of the R, but NONE of these things ever came up until after BD and Affair Exposure. there are lots of them that are from before that time but she never brought anything up, even when i asked. Again, she is super non confrontational, and passive aggressive. It suits her projected image of the "Injured Princess"

Here is a list of things WW said i did that caused her to fall out of love with me, mind you this all only was brought up to me in the last 6 months of our marriage, or after we separated due to Affair. I will try to put them in chronological order of when they happened, not when they were brought up to me

1.) I "half assed" her birthday (xmas eve) after she did a really nice one for me our first year together. I got her nice things she liked, but i didnt wrap the gifts, there was no showmanship about it.

2.) I didnt trust her to not show me her BC pills after the first pregnancy we had, she didnt like that i wanted validation she was taking them. (we know why now...)

3.)She told me she was really upset i didnt go with her to the termination appointment, although i recall asking her if she wanted me there or wanted privacy and i believe her response was "Ill go alone, ill call you if i need you"

4.) I wasnt supportive during activies i motivated with "Common, you can do this, push a little harder!" instead of something like "Great Job, you are doing so well! Keep it up im so proud of you!" during a hike.

5.) The way i reacted (shock and disbelief) to seeing her bump when she was pregnant the 2nd time, with S3. (Bear in mind she didnt tell me she was pregnant, i saw walked in on her changing) and being shocked when she told me how far along she was and explained why she had been hiding it for "the last few weeks". (she knew the whole time)

6.) The fact that when we went to the hospital for S3 to be born, that the nurses gave her meds and told me "She will sleep for a few hours, go home and get some food and rest, we will call you in a few hours" that i left to get food and rest, and 2 days after S3 was born that I left the hospital for 3 hours to go to my brothers house to get out of the hospital for a short time. When she brought this up after BD she said "well it must have been nice, its not like i could have left to go relax for 3 hours".
We were there for 4 days, she got made at me for being absent a total of 5 hours. Am i wrong in thinking this over-reaction??
She hates being alone, at all, in any way, this is why she was SO mad about this. Also, my brother had died 9 days prior, so i was a bit emotionally maxed out in both directions.

7.) Claims of me not "recprocating the effort she put into the relationship" like that she was better at birthdays or Christmas than me, but i did other stuff. Surprise coffees at work, Special Dinners homemade, tons of verbal love, affection and support.

8.) SHe was mad when i said "you took the first job you were offered" when we had difficulty and disagreements with her schedule when she started at the salon in Jan of 2017. She said this was me "not supporting her career choice" she had never expressed interest in working at a salon EVER before she was hired here. Applied on a whim for an entry level position.

9.) said "you complain everyday about doing something for 2 hours each day that ive been doing for 24 hours a day for the last 2 years" when i had difficulty with S3 alone, after pickups from school right when he started. I was just venting TO her about my frustrations with his behavior. She took it as me complaining about having to parent. I tried to clarify this and she never believed me. She was my rock and my teammate, i thought thats how it worked...

10.) My temper, As before stated, i was a wall punching - door slamming type. But i had put that behind me for the most part. That side of me didnt come out until she was deliberately pushing my buttons to make it happen.
I can only think of 2 occasions it occurred before BD, and neither were directed at her. One was my brother, and the other was because of our neighbor. She just saw that i could get to that point, and took note for future use i guess.

Thank you for the fathers day wishes by the way.

Update of events.

Had a good weekend up at my parents with S3, My brother and SIL.

WW had to come to my house to pickup S3 today, She asked "are you just going to stay inside and send him out, or do you want me to come to the door? how are we doing this"

She still doesnt seem to understand what "must remain 300ft away at all times" means.

I left my house and had my grandfather come hang out with S3 until she got here to get him.

During the weekend WW texted me twice to ask for items that shew wanted from my parents house, a grill her mom gave us, and a baby hiking carrier that S3 doesnt fit into anymore. I imagine she is re-gifting or selling that.

When she had picked him up she complained that i hadnt informed her S3 was in a pull up and not a regular diaper.

The list of things she expects me to keep her posted on, through a restraining order, is becoming a bit long for my liking.

Lastly, I did have several waves of "the twisty stomach" this weekend. This is now establishing a pattern, any weekend in the last month+ SHE has NOT had S3, i get this anxious stomach sensation. Last weekend she had S3 and it didnt bother me at all. She has S3 now, not bothering me at all. I swear there is some odd emotional connection or something, i feel crazy saying that but it honestly feels true.........Bizzaro.

Overall, a good weekend. Progress was made.

Happy fathers day to all the LBH's out there. You rock.

Ok...early on I got knots in my stomach when I had my girls because I knew if they were with me she had the freedom to date and be with om. That might be what you are experiencing.

Originally Posted By: Joseph9

Ok...early on I got knots in my stomach when I had my girls because I knew if they were with me she had the freedom to date and be with om. That might be what you are experiencing.

I had considered that, but that doesnt ever seem to be where my train of thought is when it happens, and i know that she is off with OM anytime she isnt at work, so that may be it, but if it is its subconscious.
At this point i could honestly really stop calling him OM. He is her primary now. Furthermore i will refer to him as her boyfriend, she is no longer my wife, and they are together, not her and I.

OrangeK, I'm sorry I haven't been able to comment on your thread lately but I hope you're doing as well as possible and making it through each day. I share many of the same thoughts and feelings as you do about my own situation. It's great though that you're spending quality time with your son and putting care into each communication you have with your WW to ensure you're saying the right thing.

Originally Posted By: NicoleR

OrangeK, I share many of the same thoughts and feelings as you do about my own situation.

Like what Nicole? any insight i can offer, i shall.

Originally Posted By: NicoleR

It's great though that you're spending quality time with your son and putting care into each communication you have with your WW to ensure you're saying the right thing.

Im just so done fighting, or disagreeing. I just want us both to move on and be parents. Hatred is such a burden. i dont want to carry that weight ever again. It hurts my soul.
I pity her at this point. I want her to get help, but not at the expense of my own health and sanity.

ME: What days would you like S3 to go to my parents house on Week of July 4th when he doesnt have school. He will have a great week, he loves his friend next door!

WW: He always has a great time up there. Im at work, can we talk dates later?

ME: Sure. No problem.

WW: My mom will have him tonight if youd like to talk with him at all, hope he had a good Fathers Day with you.

ME: Apologies i thought you had Mondays off now. Have a good shift.

ME: Id prefer to talk to him at bedtime, but ill talk to your mom later. Thanks.

WW: Wwe hired a new girl, but she has to train some more before i move into my new position and schedule.

ME: I had a great fathers day with our son. Thanks. Ttyl.

WW:Well i wont get home till about 8:30 and thats basically bed time.

ME:Ok ill talk to your mom about it later, thanks again.

WW: Yep.
----------------------------------

I am considering sending

"what would you sugjest you and I could do to make this co-parenting situation less stressful and more amicable, i am over it emotionally and want things to just run smoothly and be easy for both of us. I am tired of feeling like enemies."

I have a feeling you all will tell me not to send that, so i havent typed it out yet.

Yup. your instincts are right. don't send that message.

Instead, what are specific things you'd like to do to destress coparenting? Communication? schedule? discipline? etc etc. you get my drift.

What's not running smooth for you. Identify that first and then you can strategize how to discuss it with her.

Originally Posted By: Maika

Instead, what are specific things you'd like to do to destress coparenting? Communication? schedule? discipline? etc etc. you get my drift.

What's not running smooth for you. Identify that first and then you can strategize how to discuss it with her.

Well, firstly there is just all of the unresolved tension. Other than Text co-parenting, the last time we spoke was a huge fight, "I want a divorce" the creration of the TRO. A mess.

I would like us to stop treating each-other with cold silent contempt.

I would like her to stop knit picking anything she can about S3.
She complains if he has bug bites, Or dirty clothes. Hes 3.....
I feel like i cant let him have fun when ehs with me

I dont want my heart-rate to spike when she text me.

I dont want to have to plan around thinking she may be trying to trap me with violating the TRO.

Communication is key, that is poor right now. Half of everything still goes through MIL.

Schedule - i trust she is doing ok with bedtime, etc.

Discipline - This is a toughie. I want to bring this up, but i anticipate her disagreeing with me on this. We disagreed on this when we were together. She is a pushover, lets him do what she wants.

Its really hard to co parent with someone who acts like she hates me, and i didn't do anything to earn that hate. It is just the fury of her wayward mind. She has turned me into the mirror for her negative emotions that come from within. Or so it seems to me. She is a projector the max. I feel like the more guilty and shamed she feels from what she did, the worse she will treat me. Until OM becomes a boring thing for her anyway. I may get a reprieve in her scorn then, who knows.

Id still like to ask why she shut our her love off like a light-switch too, but i know ill never get that answer.

Honestly i am starting to think she deliberately left everything open ended so she can have openings if it doesn't work with OM.
That way she can come in and say "I never said i would never love you again" or "We never talked about that, this is how i feel now Blah blah blah"

i wish there was some way to let her know, without telling her directly (pursuit) that i am willing to simply listen to what she has to say. She never communicated to me, held everything in and it destroyed our marriage....

Quote:

i wish there was some way to let her know, without telling her directly (pursuit) that i am willing to simply listen to what she has to say. She never communicated to me, held everything in and it destroyed our marriage....

This is the problem that eating at you^^^^^^^^^^^. You may can call it better communication, co-parenting, or whatever........but you really want to be able to talk about the two of you.

I think you push for too much. Both of you scrutinize each other's texts for the slightest hint of some type of an one-up. Neither want to let the other have the last word!

But if she is nice......then, you don't want to leave her alone. You want to push for more!
Just let it be! This is probably the nicest text since day one, without any sarcasm........so just let it be, and don't push.

Here is a list of personal goals i thought about over the weekend, from the small and trivial, to the large and important.

Priority #1 - S3's Happiness, Growth Safety and FUN.

Fitness/diet:
Begin Running
Get myself up to 185, currently at 172. Muscle Gains only.
Be ripped like gladiator by October.
Stick to my meal prep plan better.
Stop getting Breakfast from Drive through. Fruit and Oatmeal not Bacon and Cheese. (Bacon for weekends)
More Water.

Habits:
Wake up earlier
Go to bed Earlier
Meditate more.
QUIT SMOKING BUTTS
Keep a cleaner living space.

Personal Goals:
Get moved to Brothers house. Start saving money.
Pay of all debts, both personal and from TRO/Divorce
Buy new car
Get new 2br apartment.
Get all bills on "Auto Pay"
Get higher paying work.

Personal goals of a less important nature
Finish Arm sleeve.
Start tattoos for S3, Late Brother, Late Grandfather. Personal Back-piece.
Learn more Crafts.Trades - Welding, Blacksmithing, Foundry work. Woodworking.
Write more, practice drawing.
Get a guitar, dont quit on it in 2 weeks.
DM my own D&D campaign.
Start going to Card Tourneys again.

Last, but certainly not least.
STOP WORRYING/MIND READING/BEING ANGRY AT WW & OM.
they dont matter.
They are relics of the past, i am above that.
Done. Final. Complete, Finito,

"you cant trip on whats behind you"
~WW's EX BF

Originally Posted By: sandi2

This is the problem that eating at you^^^^^^^^^^^.

Guilty.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

You may can call it better communication, co-parenting, or whatever........but you really want to be able to talk about the two of you.

Slight correction here. I dont want to talk about the two of us. I just want her to talk about the two of us. I said all i needed to months ago.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

I think you push for too much. Both of you scrutinize each other's texts for the slightest hint of some type of an one-up. Neither want to let the other have the last word!

What am i "pushing for" (no snarkyness here, just curious as you didnt specify)
You are 110% right about us scrutinizing eachothers messages. Im trying to take them at face value.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

But if she is nice......then, you don't want to leave her alone. You want to push for more!
Just let it be! This is probably the nicest text since day one, without any sarcasm........so just let it be, and don't push.

When else have i pushed after her being nice? again, not questioning you, i want to know what example you are citing so i can be aware.
Im leaving it alone. I am happy with how today's messaging went.

I know you may tell me im nitpicking, but i know how she communicated in the past and the nuances of it. The only thing she said that felt sarcastic/left handed was the "Yep" at the end.
She always used "Mhm" "yep" and "Ya..." very dismissively in the past.
If she was agreeing about something she likes, it was always "YES!" "Ok :)" "Sure" or "you bet"

Quote:

What am i "pushing for" (no snarkyness here, just curious as you didnt specify)
You are 110% right about us scrutinizing eachothers messages. Im trying to take them at face value.

You just said it. You want her to talk about the two of you (which is what I meant when I said you really want to talk about the two of you). I meant, that is where your head is, and that is what you really want. A lot of your concerns about better co-parenting communication is just surface for what your really desire.

Quote:

When else have i pushed after her being nice? again, not questioning you, i want to know what example you are citing so i can be aware.

Ever since her text, you talked about what you wanted to text back, and wanted to hear her talk about the two of you. That's what I mean. You didn't say anything to her that was pushy (the conversation was on the hinge of being long, but still good) but if we had agreed......you would have been texting her back again, trying to get her to open up. That is what I mean by pushing for more. It would be obvious to her, and way too risky.

You want more communication b/c you want her.......period. You are using the co-parenting as the excuse, but it really boils down to how much you need to her to talk to you about the R. I'm not picking on you, I'm just trying to help you not to overkill. Don't start spinning again, and become consumed about how to get her to open up. This is the pattern I saw in you in the past (your dark time). I was trying to turn you around before you started obsessing. Just let it be for now. Don't keep posting about it. Don't repeat those old behavior patterns and get into another dark time. ((hugs))

If the two of you can have a stretch of time where there are these type of nice/friendly type of texting........then who knows where that may lead.

Quote:

I know you may tell me im nitpicking, but i know how she communicated in the past and the nuances of it. The only thing she said that felt sarcastic/left handed was the "Yep" at the end.
She always used "Mhm" "yep" and "Ya..." very dismissively in the past.
If she was agreeing about something she likes, it was always "YES!" "Ok :)" "Sure" or "you bet"

OMG!! Yes, that it is nitpicking, Orange! Maybe she has picked up a new habit. This is what I mean. Don't let your mind run away with things over something like this. Just let it be, and stop over-thinking it.

As you said, it was good.......so relax and feel satisfied for today.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

If the two of you can have a stretch of time where there are these type of nice/friendly type of texting........then who knows where that may lead.

This is gold. today was my foundation.
Can you send blueprints for a lighthouse?

thank you Sandi.

That post did marvels for my confidence and resolve.

However I did have to text and ask about the 50% payment for S3's Dr. Appointment two weeks ago.

I owe someone that money and need it back.

I asked politely.

ME: Have you had a chance to mail out the check for S3's Dr. Appt yet? I have a need for that, as i owe a balance elsewhere. Can you please let me know when you've sent it.

Ok, so i ended up talking with WW quite a bit last night.
Im not sure how i feel about it.....Probably shouldnt be talking this much but the convo wasnt bad, except that the beginning felt like an attempt to get under my skin. Ill take any input.

After i asked about repayment from her about S3's Dr. Appt Yesterday afternoon she replied "oh yea i forgot about that ill get that right out to you in the mail"

Last Night:

WW: I just recieved your new finanacial paperwork in the mail. I know you cant reply to this as its not about S3, but i wanted to mention that the Gross income on your paystubs doesnt match what you listed, also you didnt list your overtime pay. I dont know if the court will catch on to this, dont wana see it come back and bite you.
I am glad you got a chance to talk to S3 on the phone tonight.

*Waited 1.5 hrs*

ME:Yes it was nice to talk to him. Im just glad communication is easier now, as easy as it can be given the circumstances. Let me know about July daycare week off when you can please.

WW: Yes sorry i forgot about the July discussion

ME: Can we talk about his behavior for a second?

WW: Okay

ME: Ive seen improvement but i still see a lot of deliberate disagreeing and obstinance.

WW: I see it more when he is hungry or tired. Other than that hes been great lately.

ME: I can agree there. Ive been giving him choices so he feels more in control. I feel like the whole situation took away his sense of control and routine. He is just getting back into a routine. He has been through a lot, but i have seen a lot of improvement lately. I just want to be sure we are on the same page as far as parenting techniques are concerned, so things are consistent for him. If there are any specific methods you are using at your home let me know and i will do my best to emulate those when he is with us. Have you still been doing James Taylor at bedtime?

WW: Yeah, i give him a choice to make, whether its between a couple of things or the choice to help do something or not. That way he is part of the decision making process.
How have you been doing discipline?

ME: I do timeouts with him, we sit with a book and when he has calmed down i tell him we can read the story and learn from it, then go back to what we were doing. Why, How are you doing discipline?

WW: Okay

WW: I Would like to really work hard on potty training this summer.

WW: We will have to deal with some accidents at first but it will be the best way to learn if we try just cold turkey on diapers. Where its summer out we can just have plenty of spare undies on hand.

ME: Glad were on the same page there, ive already been doing that.

WW: He has gone a few times on the toilet here, but usually waits till hes going in his diaper.

WW: Glad we are on the same page too.

__________________________________________

This Morning

WW: I Put some clean clothes from your house in his backpack this morning. Hes been telling lots of stories and saying funny things this morning. He keeps asking about the Donut House whats up with that? LOL.

ME: Ok, Cute. He likes the lady where i get my coffee in the morning. calls it the donut house.

WW: Hes so funny! he so serious about it, asks anytime we drive by Dunkin's! Hes such a ham!!
--------------------------------------------------------------

Still interested why she feels the need to dictate to me about the divorce. Then act like everything is peachy keen.
Again, this is not how someone "in fear of their safety and needs a Rest. Order" talks to the person they "Fear"
Also she came to my house on Sunday to pickup S3 and fully expected me to be there, i called and had my grandfather be there instead so i wasnt violating 300' rule of RO, but she had asked "Do you want to send S3 out or should i come to the door?"
So she was expecting to see me up close, in person.

Her actions and words dont match up and its frustrating.

On the other hand i do prefer this "Chipper" version as opposed to scorn, but i know she is still planning and staying vigilant behind her facade of pleasantry. this is all part of her game. It feels like a trap....

I don't think communication could possibly get any better than that.

You want to have these talks about stop pretending to hate eachtoher, and have positive coaprenting, ect. Then she actually does it and you are convinced it's a game.

It's a damed if you do, dmaed if you don't situation. You won't be happy until you get your answers you need personally. Otherwise, she is doing exactly what you wanted regarding co parenting.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

I don't think communication could possibly get any better than that.

You want to have these talks about stop pretending to hate eachtoher, and have positive coaprenting, ect. Then she actually does it and you are convinced it's a game.

It's a damed if you do, dmaed if you don't situation. You won't be happy until you get your answers you need personally. Otherwise, she is doing exactly what you wanted regarding co parenting.

The only thing that makes me feel like its a game is the fact that she started off with discussions of the divorce, which she knows and even mentioned that i cannot discuss. It is her passive aggressive way of asserting control over the D proceedings.

Additionally, She is starting to talk like we are buddies, joking around and stuff. I want open, clean and amicable communication.
I dont want to be her Co-parenting bestie. I chose a marriage, which she devalued and discarded, ruthlessly. Im not interested in being her friend.

Communication between us should be about S3 only, and factual and efficient. Nothing more. She has no place to mention D proceedings. i have made it clear i cannot and will not discuss that.

I get that this is much better than acting like we hate each-other, im not saying its not an improvement, but im not interested in being her friend and sharing cute stories and LOL's.
I want fair treatment, quick, amicable, efficient communication about S3 only.
I was her husband, and she woke up one day and decided i was garbage. She doesnt get to just decide to be my friend.
I feel she wants to emulate her parents, as friendly co-parents.
Her mom is still friends with all her EX-Husbands.
I will do my duties as a father, and respectfully, but her happy go lucky demeanor and acting like nothing was ever wrong and she didnt do what she did is not ok in my book.

Not arguing with you Ginger, just telling you how i view it.

You aren't going to get exactly what you want. She is not going ot communicate exactly the way you see fit, which is very very particular. She shares something nice and funny about your son and its too amicable for you.

I agree about the divorce preceeding. Just don't answer. But everything else was great communication, but "too" friendly for you.

remember, choose your hill to die on. Not everything is going to be exactly the way you want it, and the exchange you had was pretty good.

It's just suspect because I know this is exactly how she acted after she broke up with her ex. At that point her and I were together and she was trying to be friendly and amicable with her ex and her s new girlfriend. in the end it was all just so she could continue to try and manipulate the situation and when her ex's girlfriend called her out on it and said she was being too friendly in communicative with her ex which was now This Woman's husband and then it made this woman feel uncomfortable, ww got extremely venomous and vindictive with this woman, all just for trying to set a boundary. I'm going to leave it alone and just move on with my day. if she needs to say anything else she can message me

Also, notice how she picks and chooses what questions she wants to answer. she did not answer me about her methods for discipline or if she was still playing James Taylor for bedtime

OK - I thought the communication was fine and the first time I did not sense any anger from either party.

Think about your goals and what you want this R to look like. Do you want it to be strictly 100% business and your responses to your W are simply yes/no or factual answers? Is that how you want her to talk to you as well? Just strictly business? Do you want to be able to banter/joke with her a little bit about your S and it be more comfortable, interactive, and relaxed?

What do you want it to look like and start modeling that behavior.

Good advice J9, I agree.

Originally Posted By: Joseph9

OK - I thought the communication was fine and the first time I did not sense any anger from either party.

Other than the jab about the Divorce Papers, i agree.
I do still feel uncomfortable with such a casual level of talk.
I get she is probably just trying to be amicable, but its too much. I dont want to be her friend. She hurt me too profoundly for me to be able to have that type of a relationship dynamic right now. I mean there is still a restraining order in place. Again, doesnt seem like the behavior of someone in fear of her safety.....because she isnt.

Originally Posted By: Joseph9

Think about your goals and what you want this R to look like. Do you want it to be strictly 100% business and your responses to your W are simply yes/no or factual answers? Is that how you want her to talk to you as well? Just strictly business? Do you want to be able to banter/joke with her a little bit about your S and it be more comfortable, interactive, and relaxed?

Do you want it to be strictly 100% business and your responses to your W are simply yes/no or factual answers?
For now. Yes. Still too raw to pretend like nothing happened. If this is how she chooses to communicate, i will deal with it and let her do her thing however. Im not going to rebuke her for being nice to me, even if i believe it is fake.

Is that how you want her to talk to you as well?
Yes, factual, informative, and to the point. No need for venom or arguments, but we are nowhere close to being "Friends". I dont want a friendship with her. I wanted a marriage, she chose not to have that. So business is what it should be.

Do you want to be able to banter/joke with her a little bit about your S and it be more comfortable, interactive, and relaxed?
Maybe someday, but right now, it was too much too fast.
I said the other day i wanted things to "not feel like we hate eachother and are enemies"
That doesnt mean i wanted to move right into, "lets pretend nothing ever happened, except when i decide to throw the Rest. Order in your face or complain about divorce papers you cant reply to when i dont like what i see"

She cant play both sides Joseph.
There are 4 ways i can see this going.
1.) Contempt and fighting - Obviously i dont want this. Nothing but pain and misery here.
2.) Business like, amicable but impersonal. - this is ideal. Clean, efficient, emotionless, and quick. Yes, No, Who, What, Where and When.
3.) Lets be friends! - Although this could be a goal down the road, and will be best for S3 in the long run, i cannot do this right now. Burns arent healed. Flesh too raw. Not after all she has put me through.
4.) Reconciliation - Lol. i wont even. we all know this is about as likely as a blizzard in Hell.
I wouldnt believe it if she came running, begging and pleading. She isnt going to and i wouldnt believe it id she tried. [/quote]

She says something mean, you react in anger and resentment. She says something nice, you react in anger and resentment. Like Ginger said you're painting W and yourself into a no-win situation. I understand you are angry with her, but you've got to find ways to manage that anger and convert it into energy for something else instead of raging against her over anything and everything. For the record I thought those recent text convos were perfect.

Ok - Your responses are fine, you can handle your sitch how you want. If you are not ready for a more comfortable R then keep your answers short and to the point. Unfortunately you can't control how she initiates things or communicates. You just can't let it get to you when she does try to be all friendly, chatty, etc.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

She says something mean, you react in anger and resentment. She says something nice, you react in anger and resentment. Like Ginger said you're painting W and yourself into a no-win situation. I understand you are angry with her, but you've got to find ways to manage that anger and convert it into energy for something else instead of raging against her over anything and everything. For the record I thought those recent text convos were perfect.

AS,
I get the juxtaposition. I do.
I wouldn't say today's reaction was anger or resentment, more confusion and suspicion.
I am re-directing my anger with her, which is why my communication came across as cleaner and more amicable.
It really boils down to trust.
I dont trust her, after all the lies and the Rest. Order situation.
Her niceness seems insincere, and if it is sincere, it would be because of my shattered trust.

Originally Posted By: Joseph9

Ok - Your responses are fine, you can handle your sitch how you want. If you are not ready for a more comfortable R then keep your answers short and to the point. Unfortunately you can't control how she initiates things or communicates. You just can't let it get to you when she does try to be all friendly, chatty, etc.

She can be nice all she would like, it is still much preferable to her cold scorn.
I will continue to communicate how i am comfortable, which is flexible and business like.

Hey OK,
Just a little advice from a HUGE newbie and going through a tough situation myself.

You can only control you.

If you want your communication to be short, businesslike and only about your son, then you can only control your responses. You bantering and conversing back and forth opens the door and welcomes her to do the same.

IF you keep your responses clear, concise and only about what you want to communicate about, I believe the conversations would be shorter, briefer and way less personal.

DON'T let her get to you in any way. Kindness, frustration, jabbing, etc. If she sends these to you, it is either ignore or a short response regarding your son. Nothing more.

Just MHO

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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2796694#Post2796694