I'm a noobie here and still familiarizing myself with all the terms and such but I've read through a lot of the stickied material already but I'm still really unsure of what is exactly going on with my W. Anyways, this is going to be a long one but it' necessary to understand the situation so that hopefully some of you here can help me understand what is going on and more of the steps I should be taking to fix the situation the best I can.
As the title of my post states, I'm having trouble figuring out if my wife is simply a WAW or an early MLC'er or both, or even maybe a WW even though I don't fully expect that last one?
I'll start with the basics of us and our marriage. I'm 32 and she is 31. We've been together for 12 years as of this February and celebrated our Anniversary on April 15th. We have one son who is about 1 1/2. Our relationship has been generally good throughout, obviously there has been the rocky moments and even where the "D" word has come out in fights and in really bad moods or times but they've always just sort of smoothed over after at least a few days or so. There has never been any abuse toward either one of us either emotional or physical. There has definitely at times been disconnects but we've always been able to reconnect again, usually pretty quickly and the disconnects were usually stress or work related. There was also times where I being a typical man wouldn't notice things or do the little things that I should have been doing. After 12 years it can be tough at times to not be at least a little complacent. But overall, it's really been a pretty stable ride for the most part until about 2 weeks ago...but I'll get into that in a bit. Fist, a little more background info as I believe it's important to know as much about the situation as possible.
Our marital system is a little different from the norm although it is fast becoming more common in that for the last roughly 1.5 years since our son was born, I have actually been the one at home looking after him while she is out working. The reason for this is because of my profession and business, I can easily work from home and because of her business, she is needing to be there in person everyday. We both made the decision even before we decided to have a baby that in order to make it work I'd need to be the one looking out for him during the day at least as we had no close family nearby who would have been able to and we didn't want him in daycare so early in his life. So we had initially agreed upon at least a few years of this or so, maybe less depending on how things went. So for the last 1.5 years, I've been looking after him during the day and working through my business whenever I've been able which is pretty much only part time as it is extremely challenging to work and take of little one at the same time as I'm sure anyone who's ever raised kids knows. I've also been the one since day one that has pretty much done all of the banking and handled the accounts and such. She has always thought I was a little too controlling with the money. We've had credit card debt rack up over the years mostly due to business operations and the way she always wants new things for the business even though she hasn't sold the other stuff she wanted from before. Some of the purchases for the businesses have been gigantic and I have mostly been against them but in the end, she would always win. One of the reason I had been controlling in the past with money is to try to fight the spending on things we didn't need.
She is an extremely hard worker and has been since I've known her. She would always fill her days being busy doing things and if she wasn't, she would seem to get depressed or down (which is a key point for later I think) so I never really tried to get in the way of that even though I knew she would sometimes need to take breaks or just be with the family. We decided to open up a business for her in 2012 and it became really successful quite quickly, but in the end it only made her even more of a workaholic. She was always a very kind and loving person, short tempered at times but generally very good natured and with an extremely good moral upbringing. She has also always been more outgoing than me but not to an extreme. She has however also suffered from bouts of depression here and there which never really seemed to be triggered by anything. She also had a fairly traumatic childhood in some ways.
I've always been a decent worker as well although not to the extreme of my W. I definitely enjoy my down time as I've always found that balance is needed in life to truly enjoy it. I quit my long term job a few years into her business as that it was doing so well, we both figured it would be a good time for me to branch out into what I've always wanted to do. It started out slowly but started to gain steam. I had actually been using one of the spare rooms for my business in our commercial building that she uses for her business. I think she liked having me there as she always felt that if I was at home, I'd be slacking off or cheating on her or something. Which was definitely never something on my mind. This whole situation flipped once the baby came though.
Her pregnancy was actually pretty good. The problems started during the delivery, which was in November 2016. I think things have never been the same since with her, especially looking back. She ended up losing a lot of blood during the birth of our son and was needing transfusions. She didn't want the transfusions and decided to let her blood cells recover on their own which can take awhile. This is where her troubles begin I think as this is when the baby blues hit her HARD. I MEAN HARD. We were living with her parents during this time for about 2 months. It was a really dark time. She didn't seem to really form an unbreakable bond with our son due to this. During her initial recovery, we would go back and forth to the hospital for her to need reassurance she wasn't dying. She would lay there just looking in a daze. She would walk around like a zombie...this wasn't the person any of us knew. She would have anxiety attacks almost daily for the first 3 or 4 months after, probably longer but just not showing or telling me. She also had a few counselling sessions but didn't really keep up with them even though she should have. It took her going to work after a few months to start to at least somewhat become normal again. It's what she wanted to do. That's when I started to stay home and look after our son. I would say looking back at this, she may never have gotten over her postpartum depression completely.
Fast forward to about the beginning of this year. Looking back, the changes to her are obvious but at the time I guess you could say I noticed but didn't think anything of them. At the beginning of the year she started to become really obsessed with exercising. Like being in the bedroom doing a bunch of routines for like 2 hours straight. She was always saying she hated the bit of fat left after the baby that was still there as she was always a really naturally fit person. She also always thought I didn't like it either. She started hanging out with a lot more friends, most of which are younger and single or divorced. Her new "bestie" is a divorcee who preaches self empowerment on her website... Just different friends than she had hung out with before. She also started joining different female sports and just doing things that she would normally have never done. She started to become absolutely obsessed with her looks, like constantly checking herself out in the mirror, buying new clothes all the time, constantly checking on her "abs" in the mirror, spending a lot of time on her makeup, Always taking selfies of herself to post online, etc. She started working or taking clients way later than she normally would have in the past, but at least I could verify it due to the booking system at her business. Started to really seem to be more self centered in general and wouldn't really be concerned with spending much time with our son. Sex had been mostly regular between us even up to breaking point a few weeks ago but the only major difference I guess would have been in the fact that it seemed it was just lower on her priority list. She would still initiate it as much as me but sometimes it really seemed like I had to fight for it if I wanted it. The odd thing is, it had been the best sex of our relationship the last 6 months. She also hadn't been sleeping well the past few months as far as I could tell.
Now, the other thing about the last 6 months for us is that it had been extremely stressful. Stressful in terms of finances mostly. Many things contributed to it, but it just seemed that everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. One of our commercial buildings needed a new roof, rear window in our truck blew out for some, taxes were horrible this year for us, business was down due to economy in our location, you name it, it happened. I'm fairly sure she had been feeling a ton of pressure to work more which she did to help cover this. I'm also sure she resented me for staying at home with our son and only working part time even though I had actually been really busy with my business and had been contributing a lot lately even while taking care of our son full time.
Anyways, now to the moment this all happened, or rather the night before this all happened. She came home, even a later than usual, around 9pm. She seemed fine to me, we said hi and I asked how her day was. She said it was fine. Then she ate in the kitchen the supper I made for her. She then joined my son and I in the living room. Once she settled in with him, I decided to go take a break and just chill out on my pc. Everything seemed fine until we getting into bed. She seemed extremely distant and depressed. I asked her if she was ok, she said she was just tired. I took it at face value and then said my usual good night and I love you. I actually at this point cannot remember if she said it back or not. Anyways, the next morning she woke up still seemingly in a depressed mood, so I then asked her again if she was ok and she still said she was just tired. Again, I took that at face value and wished her a good day. A few hours later is when it all hit the fan.
A few hours after she left for work, I texted her to see if she was doing better. I got the response of "I'm not happy". I say what do you mean you're not happy? She responds with "I want a divorce. I'm not in love with you anymore." So of course I start the whole asking why, why, why and what is going on, etc etc. I start the pleading , crying and begging. Of course, as you all know that got me nowhere fast. When it happens so suddenly, it just seems like it's the only way a normal person would respond at the time. Deep down, I didn't believe she actually meant it. Not until she made it quite clear to me we are getting a divorce and there is nothing that is going to change her mind did I think she was serious. She also said she wasn't in love with me anymore and didn't want to be again. She said she felt like this for a very long time and questioned whether she ever loved me. I was absolutely devastated. How could the love of my life turn on me so quickly? Especially without even giving me an ultimatum to change or anything, just we're done and I'm not changing my mind, no chances. And the anger and coldness of her is something I had never seem from her. It's as if a switch was flipped in her head and she was a different person. It's then that I immediately that night started searching for how to handle the situation. I found a few different systems to work with but all seemed very similar but the DB one definitely caught my eye the most.
I tried doing the traditional methods of getting her to forgive me for the first few days but when it was clear I was just getting nowhere fast with those, I really started to pay attention to the last resort. It seemed to make a lot of sense, whenever I chase, she just ran further away. So I really started to try and implement that immediately. I had tried to follow the rules as best I could but I found myself slipping a bunch, especially after jabbing or pushing from her. One thing that especially through me for a loop is the fact that she was just pushing so hard to get it over with, even after less than a week she already wanted me to contact my mom and tell her that we are separating. I was like, whoa, slow down, I haven't even had time to wrap my head around this and you want it announced already?? She immediately stopped wearing her very expensive new wedding ring we upgraded her to only about 4 months earlier. She started talking about getting a separation agreement in place about a week into the situation and made an appointment with a lawyer to sign it and go over it. She also let her family know about a week in as well which didn't go well for her. She ended up slamming the phone on them. She has had no patience for anyone in her family who was trying to talk sense into her. Not because I told them to but just because they can't figure out what the hell is going on. Always her saying to not meddle and then hanging up. She has as of yet, not spoken to her parents about this. She knows how they feel about it. She also stated that I need to get a job as she feels my business can't support the house bills as she wants to move out as soon as I was on my feet. I have no idea what her plans on moving out were or where she was going to go.
Now, with her charging full steam ahead with wanting a separation agreement, telling family, friends, clients, etc. she didn't really stop to think about how tough the divorce really would be. It turns out the way she and I agreed to divide assets wouldn't work for us and that her business would be on the table. I think that kind of took her aback a little at least. She kind of waivered and said something like "maybe we should just call off the separation and I'll just go back to being miserable ALL OF THE TIME" but she then quickly back peddled on that and said she didn't care what I went after because she is a hard worker and will be fine. I made sure to tell her that "I'm not going after anything, it's just how divorce works." She, at the time was still going forward with a lawyers appointment regardless. It wasn't until a few days later that we had our house assessed by a realtor that all talk of lawyers was called off. The market in our area has been terrible the last year and in case of our house, it's barely worth the mortgage we have on it, meaning if we were to have to sell now, we would get nothing. Obviously, this must have not been what she was expecting and quickly agreed to call off the lawyers but still insisted we are separated. The thinking is waiting on the market to pick up again I guess. I then suggested that instead of her moving out, why not just stay in the house and as soon as I get another job instead of my business we'll just split the bills. To my surprise, she immediately accepted. I'm thinking it must be because she feels she will save more money this way as well but I'm not sure.
It's been a few days since then and we haven't really seen each other much. I've been executing the "rules" to a T as far as I can tell with the exception of maybe not acting as cheerful as I should but thats a tough one and I'm working on it. Things have been generally peaceful and she hasn't seemed as angry as long as there are no talks of anything important when I do see her. I did notice the other day, that after I was doing things I wouldn't normally be doing, at the end of the day, I was in the basement lifting weights, she came downstairs and looked around the corner, she said she merely "saw the light on and came to check" even though she knew I was downstairs. Seemed to me like a very small ping of interest to see what I was doing but I don't know.
Last night was difficult in particular as she didn't come home till after midnight and was dropped off by one of her friends. I was really having a difficult time keeping it together. It's the hardest thing in the world seeing the woman you love going out with friends not wearing her wedding ring...I later snooped on her phone (even though I know I'm not supposed to) and found out it was just drinks with a few female friends at a "non looking for someone place" so that helped me sleep last night.
So just to kind of summarize and point out some key details:
At this point I'm fairly sure she isn't seeing anybody as I haven't seen any proof of it across anything, her whereabouts are pretty much always accounted for and she swears she isn't (not that it matters what she says, but still I guess). The only two things I've seen that make me question at least something is the fact that sometimes she quickly turns her phone off if she thinks I'm looking which is I guess fine as it's hard to tell what she's doing on it, she could just simply be talking to someone about me or something. the other thing is one day about a week into this, after going out to a birthday party for her sister, she came back with some bags. I didn't see them but I heard them. She went outside to do some gardening so I went to see what that was. I didn't see anything but then went looking and it turns out she was trying to hide them. Thats when I found a victoria's secret bag with some sets of sexy new bra & panties. Now this in and of itself isn't necessarily out of behavior for her as she would from time to time get things like that for herself but I was just concerned about the hiding it. When I confronted her about it (I know, not supposed to but was angry) she swore again she's not seeing anybody and that the only reason she hid it is because she spent so much and knew I would be mad. She also mentioned that there were other clothing in there that she was hiding other than that which was true. At this point, I'm pretty sure she isn't seeing anybody as she has no male friends really in her friends circle, doesn't work with any or see any as clients and I can't find any real evidence of anything. She could be looking however even though she says she isn't. I'm not sure on this 100%
She has shown a lot of the characteristics of an early MLC'er to me. She started obsessing about her looks, doing way more with her business, started hanging out with younger single people, was talking about getting a new vehicle, generally starting to act like someone who didn't want the responsibility of having a family, and most of all making incredibly rash and irresponsible decisions that could ruin her family forever. However, could these just all also be the signs of a WAW as well? I have no idea.
In terms of her saying "she doesn't love me anymore", I've had a hard time believing that it has been that way for very long especially considering some of the things even in the month prior she would do or say. She may of course had ups and downs with that love feeling but we all do, I do all the time myself. I'm thinking she just hit a rock bottom depression one night coupled with the pressures and stress of the last 6 months and it just spiraled out of control into all this resentment towards me and now just seeing me as this lazy monster who doesn't help with anything or doesn't have a proper job, someone who she thinks all of the sudden has nothing in common with, etc. Not sure if this is something but this whole situation started right in the middle of her period. Only a few days prior to this happening, we were snuggling in the bedroom. She was just beaming at me ear to ear and hugging me a day before this as I finished building my sons first sandbox. She just seemed so proud of it with me. We were gardening together the weekend before this whole mess and having a great time. A week or two before this, she was asking me to have another baby with her. A month earlier, she wanted us to think about getting re-married and renewing our vows to which I agreed to at some point. Non of that seems to me like the actions of someone who doesn't feel ANY LOVE AT ALL towards someone. This whole situation has left my head just spinning.
I know for a fact there are things that I need to change about myself moving forward regardless of the outcome of this. I know I need to be out there working so she can see it. I need to be more assertive and stop procrastinating things. I need to make a point to be more outgoing and self confident. I need to stop having any control of the money or at least her money. I also need to work on just being a better husband and making her feel appreciated more...although I'm not sure if I'll ever get to do that again or not at this point. I also now know that we would HAVE TO make more time for ourselves even though we have a baby to take care of full time as I'm sure thats part of this as well.
So now what I really need help with is how I should go about this with her. I guess I really need to know if she a WAW or MLC or both or maybe a WW. My gut tells me she is a WAW but I'm not an expert. I also know you have to be doing 180's but what if one of the things I needed to change was showing her more attention, how can I do that without chasing? I usually did quite a bit of the house work, should I still be doing that? Should I still be doing her business accounting for her even if she asks? I'm just not sure how to proceed with a lot of this stuff.
So thank you for reading if you made it this far. I just hope that someone here will be able to help me figure out my situation and help me move forward with what to do. I'm sure there is a ton I'm forgetting to put in here but this seems to be the most important stuff.
Thanks!
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
A few other things I forgot to mention in the original post is she after only 2 weeks has already removed pretty much all the recent photos of me from her social media pages as well as set her relationship status to separated. She had posts up along the lines of "you don't know what you had until it's gone", etc, which were obviously aimed at me. I'm sure this is normal behavior in this situation but I'm not sure. She hasn't changed any of her passwords or locked her phone out or anything though at this point so I don't think she has anything to hide.
Also, she has been doing some odd things like about 3 times now since this started, she's brought me home food from when shes gone out. She's also brought me groceries a few times as well. Not sure if I'm looking to much into that or not. It just seems odd to me is all. Especially if you don't care about me at all supposedly.
I'll post more if I can think of anything I've missed.
A lot of info there. My thoughts:
-LRT all the way. Stop pursuit & GAL. The sooner the better.
-don't try to make sense of everything she does. You won't be able to and you'll only stress out trying.
-with her worrying about looks, staying out late, hanging out with single/divorced "friends", you need to prepare for the affair that may be happening. The phone thing makes me think she is having an affair. She is dumb about hiding it, like most WW's are.
*don't believe anything she says and only half of what she DOES* Your wife is hurting and scared (that's almost verbatim from the book).
-no more "I love you's". Don't say it. Don't do it. Don't think about it.
-my WW was all talking about the future and family and houses less than a month before BD (bomb drop). Don't try to use logic to understand an emotional (illogical) thing.
-if you want to 180 on attention, just pay attention when she actually does talk. Think about what she says, maybe ask pertinent questions. Don't offer advice or to fix it, just try to understand it.
-don't worry about making her feel appreciated right now. She'll see that as pursuit.
-don't worry about what would "have to happen" for the relationship to get better. You need a relationship first.
-if she is complaining about the difficulty of divorce (like the house and business), just say "that [censored]" or "yea".
-don't use the word 'divorce', don't bring it up, don't help her accomplish 1 single step moving closer to that. If she wants it, she'll do the work.
Good luck.
Bewas, sorry you are here. First make sure to get DB/DR if you don't have it and read it. Also read all of cadet's links.
Obviously you know enough to detach, GAL, 180s and be the husband only a fool would leave.
You said you have been having trouble with the being cheerful, so you know to do a 180 and that. It helps me when I am feeling unhappy or angry or even sad to start whistling a happy tune. Or sing it. Or hum it. Do whatever you have to do to be cheerful.
Remember, you are happy, pleased, content, confident, present. But you do not start conversations. You only listen, respond and validate. You treat her like you would a cashier at the store. You are friendly, but not connected. YOu are respectful but not overly excited that she dare condescend to communicate with you.
Personally based on your story I think you are dealing with a WW that is involved in an EA at best (IE the secretive nature of your phone usage) or a PA at worst (lingerie). If I had to guess, she is in an EA that is moving toward PA, based on what you've said. That is why she was trying to fast track the separation and D (so she'd be free to move it to a physical relationship).
My WW had a lot of the similar behaviors. Suddenly concerned about her appearance. Rewriting the history of our relationship. My W and I are deeply religious. As she started coming to terms with our Christianity she even said something very similar to "I'll just go back to being miserable ALL OF THE TIME".
From reading a lot of sitches it is usually something that causes the waywardness. For my wife it was turning 50. For yours it sounds like motherhood triggered something. I know you mentioned MLC, but this is a common misconception with WWs since the symptoms seem so similar to a MLC. And maybe it is or is related, but the reasons aren't important. We LBHs often think if we can pinpoint the cause, we can manufacture a fix. You can't.
So worrying about the cause is meaningless because the answer is still to DB. Detach (please make sure you understand this because it is NOT "going dark". It is doing what I described above in the paragraph starting with "Remember".
WWs are extremely selfish creatures so be surprised by NOTHING. DO not react to anything. When you feel like reacting take a deep breath and THINK and then respond appropriately. Reacting will kill you. WWs do things just to get a reaction.
READ SANDIs RULES. Learn them. Know them. Make sure they are top of mind at all times!!
Believe it or not you are in a fairly good spot. WWs have a perfect dream of a plan. As soon as that plan starts to erode, it starts to wake them up. That is what the "I'll just go back to being miserable ALL OF THE TIME" moment was about. They've convinced themselves that leaving is PERFECT and staying is HELL. That isn't reality and deep down they know this. But when the PERFECT starts to show it isn't so perfect then they start to come back to reality.
For my wife it was me selling the house and property (she didn't want that because of our daughter). When she started to realize that we weren't going to get a quickie online D for lots of reasons was another such moment. When she realized how devastating it would be to our daughter (they all have this illusion that it won't affect the kids) was yet another. WWs do not like moments of reality. This is why your wife reacted to her family the way she did, they started to give her reality. This is why her business being on the table caused her to lash out. Reality.
Your job is too help her see that reality even clearer. NOTE you do this not by breaking detachment, 180s, GAL and being the H only a fool would leave, you find other ways to do it. For me it was calling a lawyer (she wanted no lawyers). But I still tried to be detached.
So the fact that she has had doses of reality already is good.
As ovr said, BELIEVE NOTHING SHE SAYS AND ONLY HALF OF WHAT SHE DOES.
But also remember to get her back you have to let her go. No more snooping. No more R talks initiated by you. No more pressure or pursuit at all. When she leaves you ask nothing. Just say "bye". When she comes home you say "hi". Don't ask her anything about where she's been, etc.
You have a chance here if you do the right things. Because the key to all of the above is to BE CONSISTENT!! One slip up can eradicate weeks of progress. DO NOT SLIP UP.
Also, do what cadet will tell you in his next post: KEEP POSTING
Bewas, I'm so sorry to hear what you've been through but it's great news that your wife discovered divorce wouldn't be so easy and she backed off. This is a great opportunity for you to buy time and hopefully your situation will be fixable. I'm not sure how to categorize your wife as I'm not such an expert here (don't even know if my husband is wayward or a walkaway) but I guess having a baby and postpartum depression caused her to go off the deep end. It's amazing that you care for your son! I've been the sole caretaker for my daughter and I also work-from-home. It's a challenge every single day. Babies and toddlers have no concept of their parents needing to get something done that doesn't involve them! Your child is fortunate to have you. You're doing great and I hope your wife can someday return-to-normal and appreciate what she has!
Thanks for all of the great feedback so far!
I'm still not 100% percent convinced she's WW but definitely bracing myself for it. I'm not sure if I'd even be able to continue the R if there is OM...
One thing that pushed me more to believing she's a WW is that I just discovered last night her Snapchat app is the only app on her phone that isn't automatically logged in and is always logged out even though it was in open apps, seemed strange to me. I then found that she had reset her password for the app the night before the BD. It seems like it's not just coincidence. Maybe I'm looking into things a little too much but it really bothers me. I know I'm not supposed to snoop but if I were to know, then at least I could decide whether or not to move on or continue DB.
One question I do have is, if she ISN'T WW, and is just WAW, how do I change my approach if any? Would a technique used on a WW backfire for a WAW?
Please let me know your thoughts.
Thanks!
Trying to post updates but they aren't being approved for some reason. Anyone have any insight as to why they wouldn't be showing up?
Trying to post updates but they aren't being approved for some reason. Anyone have any insight as to why they wouldn't be showing up?
DB101 = Patience
I was out on a Sunday GAL
Haha, sorry about that. I do absolutely need patience and to GAL right now...
Can anyone tell me the differences in how you treat or go about handling a WAW as opposed to a WW? I'm still not 100% sure my W is WW and would not want to harm things further in case she's not and I can know for sure.
Thanks!
Bewas keep DBing no matter what. If she is WW hopefully sandi will take an interest in your thread and guide you.
Hey Bewas.
We are of different generations (W and I are very early 50s) but y'all have been together long enough, and some of the things your wife is doing sound troublingly familiar, that i really think she might be a WW. Sandi2 and Artista are the real experts here, and I'm sure one or both will chime in as your sitch plays out if they agree, but... I worry. Maybe i tend to see affairs everywhere now since my own experience, but one thing i learned from everything that transpired for me is to trust my gut. Usually, and especially in a marriage where you know the other person so well, where there is smoke, there is fire. Phone gaurding was a MAJOR red flag with my WW. While I do not advise manic snooping in such instances, my own MC/IC was not adverse to performing reasonable "research" or "investigation" if you had reasonable grounds-- sometimes you just need to know. The key is to not become obsessive about it, and only you, for sure, know where that line is if once you start down that road. Having said this, i will second what another poster said on here previously which is that early-stage WWs tend to be VERY sloppy. They believe two things: 1) That everything will work out just perfectly for them and they will ride off into their happy little affair-having sunset and 2) That they are completely safe from discovery and at no risk from being caught. The problem is, both of these assumptions are dead wrong, especially since most, in the early stages, tend to be very sloppy.
As a result, if you decide to "look into" this, i will offer up the following: If your W uses an android phone and has google accounts, all you need to do is to sign into her google account on your home computer and check her account activity. Google, unless expressly told not to, records basically everything-- apps added, apps used, internet searches conducted, and, in many cases, everywhere the phone has travelled and sometimes even snippets of voice use of the phone. Yes, it records you and saves it. Sometimes. At any rate, this can tell you quite a lot. OTOH, you need to be careful and only sign on to her account on a computer or device that already previously signed on. Otherwise a warning email is generated that a new device accessed the account. Again, i do not advise for or against this course of action. However, if you do decide to "check up on her", it is relatively low risk way to do so.
Finally, i will offer this. If she IS a WW, she appears to be in very early stage. You say her demeanor changed almost overnight? It could very well be that she met someone, and that that meeting flipped some sort of switch for her... made her feel special, or sexy, or something... My own W had a similar trigger, although our problems had a much more profound and damaged basis (numerous years of neglect and fighting and anger) than your sitch does. Nonetheless, all A's start somewhere, and, IMO, when you discover there is an affair, the sooner it can be ended, the better. My own situation is unusual for a number of reasons, and may actually have worked out the only way it could have... MAYBE. However, when i first discovered my W's A, it was just getting started, was not much more than an inappropriately close friendship. But instead of walking out or taking other strong immediate action, i took a number of actions that effectively enabled the affair to continue... and as a result it was given time to grow and become MUCH stronger and much more involved. I can't say for sure what would have happened in my own sitch had I grown an instant backbone and kicked her out or walked out myself when i found out, so damaged had our MR already become, but i do know that by not acting stronger at that time, that the affair definitely grew and strengthened and that that other relationship become significantly harder for my W to leave behind.
The good news, of course, is that, miraculously almost it seems, my W did leave that other relationship behind , and we are currently happy and in the process of piecing. And it appears that you may have more of a happy foundation and basis for recovery, even significantly so, than i did. So do not despair.
But I personally think it would not hurt you to have a little more certainty about WON there is an affair (as i myself strongly suspect, at least in the early stages, from what you are telling me.)
Peace.
I would guess your W is already having an A. I think deep down you know, but you just do not want to believe it to be true. I was the same way. We believe what we want to. The Snapchat, lingerie, and wanting to move out as quickly as she can are big signs IMO. I believe it is Steve that has said Ws do not need a new place to work on themselves or the relationship. They need a new place so they can sleep with other people. My W did a lot of similar things at BD time. Getting in better shape, more time on make up and hair, hanging out with a younger crowd, going out more often. She had me believing nothing was going on. She was just trying to work on herself. I believed it for a long time until I found out the truth. I would guess she is a WW. Keep your guard up. And do not let her fool you. You will be surprised at a lot of things she says and does. Like they say, believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. Their fantasy is real and they will not give it up easily. I wish you luck luck, man....
Ok, so I was able to get into her Snapchat and low and behold, nothing much there to be honest. Her friends list is super small and of no concern to me. I couldn't find anything damning or even suspicious at all in there. I was really expecting something. I guess I'm happy I didn't find anything, but in a way at least I would have known for sure if I did. This being in limbo is horrible. At this point I believe she could possibly be in something but if she is, she is doing an amazing job of hiding it. I'll take the advice and keep my guard up for it in the future. It would be great to get Sandi's opinion on this and her recommendations. I'm hesitant to apply too much tough love right now in the absence of any real proof. I'd hate to deteriorate the situation any further. I'm assuming just sticking to the basic DB rules right now would be my best bet until the situation unfolds further.
The one thing about her turning her phone off around me (sometimes, not all the time) is that I've been able to kind of notice what she was looking at before she turns the screen off and I've been able to trace back what she was looking at a few times and it was actually nothing. Still not behavior I'm liking and is suspicious but it's worth noting I think.
Thanks for everyone's help/advice so far!
Can anyone tell me the differences in how you treat or go about handling a WAW as opposed to a WW? I'm still not 100% sure my W is WW and would not want to harm things further in case she's not and I can know for sure.
Thanks!
There is no difference in what you DO!
Read my first post, do that.
Ok, so I was able to get into her Snapchat and low and behold, nothing much there to be honest. Her friends list is super small and of no concern to me. I couldn't find anything damning or even suspicious at all in there. I was really expecting something. I guess I'm happy I didn't find anything, but in a way at least I would have known for sure if I did. This being in limbo is horrible. At this point I believe she could possibly be in something but if she is, she is doing an amazing job of hiding it. I'll take the advice and keep my guard up for it in the future. It would be great to get Sandi's opinion on this and her recommendations. I'm hesitant to apply too much tough love right now in the absence of any real proof. I'd hate to deteriorate the situation any further. I'm assuming just sticking to the basic DB rules right now would be my best bet until the situation unfolds further.
The one thing about her turning her phone off around me (sometimes, not all the time) is that I've been able to kind of notice what she was looking at before she turns the screen off and I've been able to trace back what she was looking at a few times and it was actually nothing. Still not behavior I'm liking and is suspicious but it's worth noting I think.
Thanks for everyone's help/advice so far!
Bewas, again be careful. More savvy WW have ways of covering their tracks. Snapchat is very easy from what I understand to delete conversations.
When my wife was at the height of her waywardness she would install FB Messenger and the singing app she sings on before each usage. Then do an uninstall and cache and storage clear after each use. The only way I found this was by snooping on her PC using Google myactivity.
So just because she covers her tracks and you don't find anything doesn't mean much. Which is why it is suggested that you do not snoop!! Snooping almost always just leads to more questions. If you find something worrying, usually it doesn't tell the whole story. And just because you find nothing doesn't mean that there is nothing to find.
Yes, there are those that advocate "intelligence gathering". However, regardless of what you may or may not find the fact that she is suspicious with her phone activity around you is enough of a red flag.
Ok, so I was able to get into her Snapchat and low and behold, nothing much there to be honest. Her friends list is super small and of no concern to me. I couldn't find anything damning or even suspicious at all in there. I was really expecting something. I guess I'm happy I didn't find anything, but in a way at least I would have known for sure if I did. This being in limbo is horrible. At this point I believe she could possibly be in something but if she is, she is doing an amazing job of hiding it. I'll take the advice and keep my guard up for it in the future. It would be great to get Sandi's opinion on this and her recommendations. I'm hesitant to apply too much tough love right now in the absence of any real proof. I'd hate to deteriorate the situation any further. I'm assuming just sticking to the basic DB rules right now would be my best bet until the situation unfolds further.
The one thing about her turning her phone off around me (sometimes, not all the time) is that I've been able to kind of notice what she was looking at before she turns the screen off and I've been able to trace back what she was looking at a few times and it was actually nothing. Still not behavior I'm liking and is suspicious but it's worth noting I think.
Thanks for everyone's help/advice so far!
Bewas, again be careful. More savvy WW have ways of covering their tracks. Snapchat is very easy from what I understand to delete conversations.
When my wife was at the height of her waywardness she would install FB Messenger and the singing app she sings on before each usage. Then do an uninstall and cache and storage clear after each use. The only way I found this was by snooping on her PC using Google myactivity.
So just because she covers her tracks and you don't find anything doesn't mean much. Which is why it is suggested that you do not snoop!! Snooping almost always just leads to more questions. If you find something worrying, usually it doesn't tell the whole story. And just because you find nothing doesn't mean that there is nothing to find.
Yes, there are those that advocate "intelligence gathering". However, regardless of what you may or may not find the fact that she is suspicious with her phone activity around you is enough of a red flag.
I will give you a different example that tells you why you may never find out about the other person.
My ex-w used to read romance novels and I am fairly convinced she fell in love with the main characters, who I could not compete with.
SO in her head she was having an affair but their were no other signs externally that anyone would ever know about.
Until they decide that LOVE is a CHOICE and that they must CHOOSE to LOVE no one is going to convince them otherwise.
Let them have their crisis and you work on yourself.
Ok, so I was able to get into her Snapchat and low and behold, nothing much there to be honest. Her friends list is super small and of no concern to me. I couldn't find anything damning or even suspicious at all in there. I was really expecting something. I guess I'm happy I didn't find anything, but in a way at least I would have known for sure if I did. This being in limbo is horrible. At this point I believe she could possibly be in something but if she is, she is doing an amazing job of hiding it. I'll take the advice and keep my guard up for it in the future. It would be great to get Sandi's opinion on this and her recommendations. I'm hesitant to apply too much tough love right now in the absence of any real proof. I'd hate to deteriorate the situation any further. I'm assuming just sticking to the basic DB rules right now would be my best bet until the situation unfolds further.
The one thing about her turning her phone off around me (sometimes, not all the time) is that I've been able to kind of notice what she was looking at before she turns the screen off and I've been able to trace back what she was looking at a few times and it was actually nothing. Still not behavior I'm liking and is suspicious but it's worth noting I think.
Thanks for everyone's help/advice so far!
Bewas, again be careful. More savvy WW have ways of covering their tracks. Snapchat is very easy from what I understand to delete conversations.
When my wife was at the height of her waywardness she would install FB Messenger and the singing app she sings on before each usage. Then do an uninstall and cache and storage clear after each use. The only way I found this was by snooping on her PC using Google myactivity.
So just because she covers her tracks and you don't find anything doesn't mean much. Which is why it is suggested that you do not snoop!! Snooping almost always just leads to more questions. If you find something worrying, usually it doesn't tell the whole story. And just because you find nothing doesn't mean that there is nothing to find.
Yes, there are those that advocate "intelligence gathering". However, regardless of what you may or may not find the fact that she is suspicious with her phone activity around you is enough of a red flag.
I will give you a different example that tells you why you may never find out about the other person.
My ex-w used to read romance novels and I am fairly convinced she fell in love with the main characters, who I could not compete with.
SO in her head she was having an affair but their were no other signs externally that anyone would ever know about.
Until they decide that LOVE is a CHOICE and that they must CHOOSE to LOVE no one is going to convince them otherwise.
Let them have their crisis and you work on yourself.
Cadet, this is SUCH GOOD advice, because even if a W is in a PA, but certainly those in an EA, they have really fallen in love with an ideal, not reality. As you said, you couldn't live up to a fictional romance novel lover, but in reality NO ONE can. But for the WW she has that same fictional romance lover ideal set up in their head about their AP.
I love the line: "Let them have their crisis and you work on yourself." BRILLIANT!!
A question about a WW. Do they ever snap out of it on their own even without a major loss or reality hitting? Also, Do loss and reality affect the WAW the same way?
Another question I have is about a few events coming up. First of all is her sisters graduation. I know for a fact that her parents and most of her siblings are incredibly upset and confused by her behaviour and have told me they want me to go regardless as I'm family to them. I'm not sure if I should go or not as if I go, she may not and then just resent me for it. On the other hand, it may be some reality her. How would you all proceed here?
Another event is her birthday this month. I'm assuming I do nothing and not even acknowledge it? Even though it's one of the things I probably needed to 180 on? I guess it would be chasing though... Some thoughts?
Thanks!
My ex-w used to read romance novels and I am fairly convinced she fell in love with the main characters, who I could not compete with.
SO in her head she was having an affair but their were no other signs externally that anyone would ever know about.
These are good points that both Cadet and Steve make. Your W, if she were having an A, wouldn't necessarily be careless or sloppy (my belief from experience and these boards is that most WWs are careless at least sometimes and typically at some point will "slip up" but that certainly doesn't always have to be the case.) She could also be having an "affair of the mind", as cadet suggests with his W and romance novels... in fact, this is exactly, i believe, how my W got started down the wayward path. In the later years just before she started an actual affair, she began to ravenously consume these books-- I'll be there are at least a couple hundred lying around in stacks here and there. At any rate, as Sandi2 and others will tell you, the problem with WWs is in where their
head is at, not necessarily where their body is at. Their thinking and mindset has become wayward-- staying out all night, hanging with younger single and/or divorced friends, flirting (or worse) with other men. But, whatever, it's all about their mindset. Your W might not be actually "Seeing" anybody, at least not
yet... but i will be you any amount of money she has felt that spark or that pull of the wayward lifestyle, either from someone complimenting her or for some light flirtatiousness or, yes, even from reading trashy romance novels. I was extremely lucky, i guess, in that my own W was particularly careless and i was simultaneously lucky enough to be looking in the right place at the right time, not even really expecting to find an affair (i was actually checking our phone records to check my younger son's usage as he has tourettes and requires some monitoring at times, and i discovered the hundreds of texts and calls between my W and OM who happened to be a friend of mine so his number stood out like a sore thumb.)
Point is, if she is not actively seeing anyone and, even if she is but is being careful, you might not find out about it, at least not right away. That is why the number one rule of DB-ing is that you take care of yourself. Get out, GAL, do the 180s, etc., for YOU. In the process of doing so you, hopefully, become the kind of man that "only a fool would want to leave." Exercise regimen is a great start. I am not typically one to proselytize, but are you a man of faith? If so, don't neglect that aspect of your self-improvement. If not, have you considered what a personal relationship with God could do for you during this very difficult time? It can be a great sanctuary and can markedly improve your state of mind. It also gives you someone to talk to whenever you want! (As well as serving as a good way to meet people and get involved with something, if you find the right church-- I actually found a non-denominational congregation that tended younger demographically and was very energetic and active.) I know that it helped me immensely, and that i very likely would not be where i am right now-- both a much improved version of myself and also in what now appears to be a reconciling marriage-- without my faith and the strength it gave me and all i learned in becoming more active and involved with it. And if that (faith) is not your cup of tea, even devoting time by yourself to personal meditation can be a big help, especially during the early and most tumultuous phases of these things.
Finally, while opinions differ, on the intel front I would advise you to keep your eyes peeled, though. I am a believer in DB-ing but i am also a believer that if an affair is discovered that the LBS should act immediately to drop a bomb of their own, lest a nascent affair become more serious with the passage of time. You don't need to follow her around and manically check up on her all the time, but the occasional spot check if you have cause can help you find out where you stand... or, as Steve and Cadet say, raise more questions. IT is a balancing act. You need to decide what you could stand to find out and still want your W back, and only you know how much "snooping" you could do and how often without it becoming an obsession. For some, it drastically impairs the GAL effort. For others, it can help them either a) move on and detach and/or b) take the strong steps necessary to impress upon their spouse how serious ly you regard the situation. I myself probably went a bit too far at times in that regard, but, at the same time, my last "spot check" of my W is what triggered the crisis that pushed us both over the edge and catalyzed what is now our reconcilliation process. So its hard to say. At any rate, be careful, know yourself, and do "you."
If you have no objections, I'll be praying for you.
hoosjim is spot on with this post, and as a DB warrior you should consider yourself lucky that you have hoosjim's attention. He studied under the tutelage of sandi and artista. His advice is invaluable.
Personally I struggled with obsessive snooping in my sitch. So I lean more towards the "do not snoop" end of the spectrum. But every sitch is different and no tactic is guaranteed to work from one sitch to another.
Oh, and FWIW my take on the birthday is that you don't go. Doing anything nice for her is going to be "pursuing" and if you go and cozy up to her parents she will resent you for it. Right now, she does not want anything to do with you. I don't know what path your sitch will follow but i was repeatedly told the following and my own experience bore it out: She will never find you more attractive than when you are walking away... or when you are out having fun or being the awesome new you without her and she doesn't know what or where exactly you are. Be happy, upbeat... but mysterious. The more she wonders about what YOU are up to, the better. This is a facet of the whole pursuit/distance dichotomy, about which i believe Cadet has created a sticky thread.
Hi Bewas, there are some threads written for LBH's about WW's, if you care to read them. Here's the link to the first one.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Thanks for linking these Sandi2, they are a truly solid source of information on WW. There is just so much information there to process. Especially the 6th thread of your reflections. I see so many similarities of my situation of being the "nice guy" and letting her resentment build toward me over the years. She has actually said as much during the initial BD phase. One definitive issue is the fact that I am a Stay at home dad (while working from home at the same time mind you) and I think there is for sure a loss of respect towards me because of that.
I'm currently looking for a job even though I could do it with my own business if I had to. I'm thinking just the optics of me going out there again into the workforce would go a long way to garner some of that respect back towards me from her. As soon as I do that, all of the other boundaries will be easier for me to implement if needed.
In my situation right now, she has agreed to stay in the house rather readily (other than the odd threatening to leave here and there), In your opinion, would once I am comfortable with really setting up my boundaries and I'm sure she is WW, would all of the sudden just straight up kicking her out be a great wake up call in my situation. She would NEVER see it coming from me as I've been the one holding on to this point.
My only issue right now is even though I'm leaning closer to the fact that my wife may actually be WW, I actually have no "real" proof of anything other than a "possible" gut feeling and some "possible" evidence to back it up. She may even possibly just be starting her Waywardness. I'm just really scared to start treating her like a WW if she is in fact not. One of the things stated was the sooner you stop their BS with standing up for yourself the better and quicker it could be solved, but only to do that if they are in fact a WW. That's the scary thing for me right now.
Another question I have is, does my way of treating my WW differ because we are separated but living in the same house? I mean we are already separated so she can technically still do whatever she wants even though we are under the same roof. I'm not sure how I would go about enforcing boundaries & such in this situation.
Thanks Hoosjim for all of your advice. And yes...please pray for me, I think I need some of that right now
Another question...I know I have a lot.
Is it normal for the WW to be telling her clients or friends about us being separated? also changing her FB status to separated and removing my photos? I'm assuming it is but just wondering.
A weird thing was when she thought I told somebody, she got mad at me for some reason. Would it be because she wants to control who it gets out to? What is the logic behind that...if any. I suppose there is no logic in this.
Soooo many questions swimming through my mind.
Thanks!
Dont look for logic. As Vanilla says, they have scrambled eggs for brains.
In my situation right now, she has agreed to stay in the house rather readily (other than the odd threatening to leave here and there), In your opinion, would once I am comfortable with really setting up my boundaries and I'm sure she is WW, would all of the sudden just straight up kicking her out be a great wake up call in my situation. She would NEVER see it coming from me as I've been the one holding on to this point
.
First of all, don't say a word to her about boundaries, until you discuss them with the board. Too many newcomers mess up b/c they don't truly understand how to use boundaries. Therefore, study the link carefully, and then discuss what you want your boundaries to be.
You say she has agreed to stay in the house. You asked her, right? And she threatens to leave every once in a while? Well here's the thing.......if you plan to have an in-house separation, then that is how it should be established. I don't like them, b/c it's not a true separation when the couple resides under the same roof. But anyway, I will say more about how to do it later in this post. As for you kicking her out......here's my suggestion for your current situation. All you really know at the moment is that she's said she's not happy and wants a D, right? I haven't read about her lying, manipulating, deceiving, cheating, etc. it may be coming, but as of now all she has said is she wants a D. So, I suggest the next time she threatens to leave, you calmly tell her she is free to go anytime, and that you are not holding her against her will. That will probably stop her threatening. I suspect her threatening is b/c she is temp checking you, to see if you'll beg her to stay.
Another question I have is, does my way of treating my WW differ because we are separated but living in the same house? I mean we are already separated so she can technically still do whatever she wants even though we are under the same roof. I'm not sure how I would go about enforcing boundaries & such in this situation.
My suggestion is to treat her the way you would her if she was an elderly lady renting room & board. How would you interact with her? You would conduct this like a business arrangement. You would be polite, considerate, include her at the family table and a little chit-chat. You would speak upon seeing her in the morning or evenings, and say good night. You would not share the same bedroom. You would not show affection, snuggle, give hugs, call her pet names, try to touch her inappropriately, or sit closely on the couch. You would not enter her bedroom. You would not expect to see her naked, or get upset that she did not undress in front of you. You would only include her in family activities that were there in the home, but things away from the house would only be for you and your kids/family, your friends, etc. You would not act as her escort and go as a couple to events.
I would agree on a few house rules. If you can't each agree, then don't even attempt in-house separation. One example would be.....not bringing home other adults. Not having her dates come to door, and certainly not inside the house. Nothing that would cause the other one to feel awkward or embarrassed. Don't try to set ground rules to control her. They should be agreed upon to maintain a level of respect in the home.
In-house separation is awful, from all accounts I have read. It doesn't serve to draw the couple together. I feel like it's b/c the LBH feels very disrespected by his WW. She is free to do whatever she wants, and there's nothing he can do about it. However, that can work both ways. I certainly don't recommend in-house S for an indefinite period of time.
Is it normal for the WW to be telling her clients or friends about us being separated? also changing her FB status to separated and removing my photos? I'm assuming it is but just wondering.
A weird thing was when she thought I told somebody, she got mad at me for some reason. Would it be because she wants to control who it gets out to? What is the logic behind that...if any. I suppose there is no logic in this.
It depends on what you compare as normal. If comparing her to other WW's, yes it is completely normal. Comparing her actions to logical people, no it's not.
In really going over all of this in my head, I think I've pretty much come to the conclusion that my W is definitely a WW. I think I just didn't want it to be the case. She may not be in a PA or an EA right now but she may have been or will be at some point. One thing I remember that I kind of brushed off and now think has much more meaning is that when she initially dropped the bomb on me, I was crying of course, doing all the wrong things because of shock, I remember seeing little "smirks" on the side of her mouth she was trying really hard to stop. I yelled at her why she is smiling and she said she wasn't and then would turn her head. I'm thinking she was almost enjoying it looking back. That really seems like something a WW would do...it actually sickens me thinking about it now.
Another thing I'm thinking now is, the night before the BD, I found out that she went to a mixed softball game with a friend which she didn't tell me about. I'm thinking maybe someone there showed her a little "wrong" attention and it just triggered this towards me. Of course, I'm sure there had been resentment building up towards me and a lack of respect for me being a stay at home dad while working, coupled with massive stress the last 6 months for us, she was just a WW waiting to happen. I've definitely been guilty of having "nice guy syndrome" at many times over the years.
She's also been playing games as well...she'll go from being extremely cold and angry to making cookies and offering me some, or even bringing me home food and then right back to being angry. She hasn't at this point tried anything sexual with me but I think I possibly haven't pulled back enough yet as I've found myself slipping at times with detachment. It also hasn't been very long since this situation started so who knows what she will do in the coming months. One thing is for sure, I have no idea who this woman is right now or what she is capable of.
I'm in real need of guidance of how to handle my current situation. I know that main way of reversing this is for "reality" to hit them or for them to feel loss and for me to truly start acting like a man again and get respect back. In my situation right now, she's already enacting the separation even though we are in the same home and switching sleeping in the bedroom. She's been telling people we're separated and generally acting like it. We've held off actually filing for a D, but I'm sure that's where it will go at some point if this isn't stopped. Although She's had some doses of reality at this point (that's why there hasn't been any filing of the D yet or moving out even though she was charging full steam ahead for that at the beginning) but it wouldn't have been enough yet to get her to shake this fog she's in.
One major issue is that until I find a "job" that isn't my business at home, I'm not going to get any respect at all from her, so until that happens, which hopefully will be soon, I can't really start too much of the tough love that Sandi suggests in these situations. Until I get a job, I'm also always the one looking after our son so it's hard to actually GAL as she works late a lot of the time so I'm going to need to figure out that as well. As she would never see it coming from me at this point, I'd love nothing more right now than to just up and tell her, "No, I'm the one that's done now and I want you to leave", and have her stuff packed, etc., but until I'm secure in my own situation, that might be tough.
Also, seeing as we are officially "separated" in her eyes, I'm sure she sees whatever she is doing as fine because it would be no longer actually "cheating" even though I see it differently and so would pretty much all of our family, we are still married and it's been less than 3 weeks. So I'm thinking it may be hard for me to enforce boundaries and tough love in my case.
One really interesting thing about my situation and I'm not sure if this is something common with the families of the WW, but most of her side of the family started contact with me even though I never asked for it. She's basically had no contact with her parents and some siblings since this began because she knows how they feel. She blew up at them once when she told them initially and of course, they tried to talk sense into her. They are disgusted with what she is doing and they can't understand her ruining her family and life we've worked so hard to get for what they see as nothing that can't be worked out. She might end up being a cast off from her own family over this if she keeps it up. I'm making sure they don't do anything on my behalf towards her but I can't stop them feeling this way on their own. I'm just wondering if because she had always been close to her family, this may be a giant wake up call for her at some point? Her Dad did A LOT for her and us over the years and he himself had someone do this to him when he was younger, so for him to see his own daughter do this to me is appalling to him.
If anyone could help me with more insight and advice into my own specific situation I would so grateful as I'm having a really hard time with this. Thanks!
First get out of your head. Second stop trying to get into hers. You have a lot of work to do.
180 on the NGS. 180 on not having a job.
Detach!! You are still too focused on her! Stop that and work hard at detachment.
GAL. What are you doing to have a life out side of being a LBH and a father?!? This is imperative.
Finally, do all of the above and become alpha again. YOu've let your role as primary caregiver and home maker affect your masculinity. Reclaim it. And then become a spouse only total fool would leave.
Follow sandi's rules and sandi's advice to a tee! Consistency is the key. One slip up can set you back days, even weeks.
Hi Sandi,
Thanks for your input!
I'm pretty sure she is WW at this point now. There has for sure been deceiving, attempting to hide things on me, lying to family members about me to which they tell me, so I'm pretty sure cheating is either there already or coming. She 100% sees me as a door mat right now and doesn't respect me or our family. She still asks me to do things for her on a daily basis and if I deny, then she threatens to move out. Does that change how I approach kicking her out if I feel it's necessary at some point? I really feel she would never see it coming from me. I definitely do not want an indefinite in house separation, especially if she has an OM. The only reason I'm ok with it right now is because my home business is part time, I'm needing to find a more stable job to ensure I'm in a good spot for when she leaves, and at least while she is here, we can split the bills. I for sure, am not liking being in the same home as her right now but I think it's a necessary evil for now.
I really feel like getting a job out of the house instead of being the stay at home dad while working would at least earn me some respect back as it seems to be the MAIN reason for her lack or respect and resentment for me in what I gather from her. It's always the first thing brought up again and again with her since this began. This whole situation seems to stem from that.
Any more insight would be truly appreciated!
Thanks Steve!
I know you are absolutely right. It is slowly becoming clearer to me what needs to be done. I know I need to detach a lot more, and I've found myself slipping too many times even though the rules are swimming in my head. It can be a real challenge to not play off of someone you've been connected with for so long, especially when they know which buttons to press. I know MAJOR one thing I need to do is GAL, and the sooner I do that the better.
I think in my situation, becoming alpha again will be imperative to either moving on or getting her back. I guess time will tell which of those scenarios plays out. I'm not giving up though and will see this through.
Thanks for the encouragement!
One of the things stated was the sooner you stop their BS with standing up for yourself the better and quicker it could be solved, but only to do that if they are in fact a WW
I can't remember every word I've written, but I can't imagine why I would say only do it if they are wayward. Actually, a H should stand up for himself to any W that is giving him b.s.
Unless you know of some unresolved trauma in your W's life, I tend to doubt she is experiencing a MLC. The description you've given sounds more like a W who has lost respect for her H, which kills her desire for him and leave her feeling out of love. Her sudden attention to her physical appearance sounds as if someone is paying special attention to her.......or she's trying to get their attention. The younger, single friends can also go along with the rebellious, waywardness.
If she threatens to leave you, don't argue with her. Don't try to reason or beg her to stay. Simply point to the door and tell her she is free to leave.
If you discover she is in an affair, then that would be the time to tell her to leave. I suggest you know where you stand, however, b/c if her name is on the mortgage......the law says she has right to be there. Therefore, I don't like to really use the term, "kicking her out", but you can tell her you don't want her there and she should leave.
Is it normal for the WW to be telling her clients or friends about us being separated? also changing her FB status to separated and removing my photos? I'm assuming it is but just wondering.
A weird thing was when she thought I told somebody, she got mad at me for some reason. Would it be because she wants to control who it gets out to? What is the logic behind that...if any. I suppose there is no logic in this.
Hey Bewas!
This is a kind of interesting and important point and offers an insightful glimpse into the mind of a WW. WW's may very well tell friends or family that you and she are having trouble and may relay the sitch with varying degrees of accuracy...
as it pleases her and as it fits the WW "narrative." You see, WWs live in a fantasy world. The OM is their "soulmate" or the "man of her dreams" or "her last true chance at happiness", regardless of what a scum-bag said OM may actually be and in fact in most cases actually is. (Seriously, messing with another man's W? Does it get much lower?) They also have convinced themself that they can just ride off into the sunset with their new lover, leaving their old (miserable) life behind and be eternally happy, carefree and joyous with a never- ending supply of puppydog kisses and unicorn farts with absolutely no pain, hurt or consequences whatsoever. But there's the rub-- infidelity is not happiness and bliss and joy... It is deception and betrayal and pain and broken homes and relationships and, ultimately, in most cases, guilt and regret. But the WW does not want to hear this. She does not want to be told this. She does not want to even contemplate such things any more than she wants to contemplate a continued life with you (beyond, of course, whatever continued cake-eating best serves her selfish little heart.) Any attempt to explain the reality of the situation or convince her of it will be met with the type of enraged reaction you might see upon waking a sleepwalker or a dozing dog. Similarly, telling others who might berate her or criticize her or look down on her the ugly truth of what is happening are not likely to be met with anything besides defiance and anger, at least as long as she continues to be "wayward." You simply cannot "talk her out" of her fantasy or of her wayward ways anymore than anyone else can, and enlisting others to try to do the same by "outing" her is only going to make her angry and dig her heels in even more. She needs to find out these hard truths on her own.
I was particularly lucky in that regard in that my own WW got a sneak peak at the "truth" of infidelity and divorce due to her life-lohg bff going through the same thing. My W's narrative, as with all WWs, was, at first, similar: "Oh, but look how happy bff is now and how smoothly everything is going." The one time i actually tried to point out to her how much hurt was being caused the husband and the children she interrupted "No, No! I don't want to hear it, please!" Thing is, being as close as she was to this woman, eventually even she began to see through the facade and see just how awful the whole situation was-- and i think it helped her own recovery to see that. The fact that my W was naturally a very kind and empathetic person prior to her "fall" undoubtedly helped, but being a firsthand witness to a close friends sitch, I believe, ended up speeding up our own recovery and primed her for her "come to Jesus" moment when i walked out.
Point is, worrying about who she is telling and trying to get into her head about it is mostly a losing proposition that will drive you crazy. You just need to remember the caution: "trust nothing of what she says and only half of what she does." She is not the sweet girl you married and does not think like that girl anymore nor does she even think logically at all-- she is engrossed in the fantasy and will lash out if you try to forcefully drag her out of it. My W persisted in that state of mind in one way or another almost right up to her final "Come to Jesus" moment right before Easter this year.
Prior to that denouement, however, we were a mixed bag in terms of telling people, and that brings me to my second point: Who to "tell" what is going on and how much is always a delicate issue and probably actually should be considered case-by-case. In our sitch, my first instinct was to "keep the road home paved smooth" as they say by not outing my W to everyone and turning them against her. I confided in my Mother that we were "going through a rough patch" but nothing more, but said nothing to my Dad (both decisions being based on who my parents are as people and the nature of our relationships-- love them both dearly and have great Rs with both, but they are just... different. And also divorced :-/ ) As for friends, I confided in three of my closest that we were "having difficulty", but only in two who i knew to be trustworthy and who i knew would welcome my W back as a friend if i took her back myself did i confide the full, sordid details. It was necessary in my case i thought to have some sort of sounding board. For her part, my WW did NOT tell her parents anything-- that would have introduced too much pain and reality, especially given her upgringing-- and told probably four close friends we were having difficulty and only her bff (the other WW who was married to MY bff) was privy to the details of my W's affair. (In fact, she was something of a co-conspirator and participant.) My W said a couple of times she felt like we were secret agents living this double life where no one knew what was going on with us. At any rate... personal decision on who to tell, but my own thinking is two-fold: 1) You should really have someone, a real-life tangible person not just on this board, who you can talk to frankly and honestly and be a backstop for you and 2) The "keep the road home paved smooth" idea has a lot of wisdom to it. I am not sure my very guilt-prone W could have come back had i loudly outed her affair to everyone i knew friend and family. But be aware thinking differs amongst some on the latter.
Keep hanging in there and keep posting! You have some really sharp people looking out for you here! You are lucky that Sandi2 has taken a personal interest in your sitch...
pay attention to what she says!!!
Thanks for all of the great feedback. I'm trying to not really tell many people myself but I can't control who my W is telling. She is 100% only telling those who she feels will offer no resistance or reality to the situation. Only a few close family members of mine and hers really know the truth right now and I'll keep it that way as long as I can. Others may know that we are separating as she has been telling select people but they have no idea as to why I'm assuming. I have found out she is telling them that her decision is final which is worrying until I remember the rule to believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. I have also been finding out she is telling lies about me, things like we have separated twice before or that I have secret loans that she found out about which is all complete lies. I'm assuming the lies to fit her narrative is all part the WW game.
I have been really feeling the need to Gal and I realize the first while will be tough actually trying to but I need to. I'm thinking this weekend, I'm going to leave our son with her this weekend and then go and do whatever I please. I'll let her wonder what I'm doing for a change.
I am really really struggling with what to about her sisters grad. They really want me to go and already got me a seat even though I said I want sure. I'm thinking maybe it wouldn't terrible for me to go to just the ceremony at least and then leave? Not sit by her or anything? I have till this weekend to decide.
I am really really struggling with what to about her sisters grad. They really want me to go and already got me a seat even though I said I want sure. I'm thinking maybe it wouldn't terrible for me to go to just the ceremony at least and then leave? Not sit by her or anything? I have till this weekend to decide.
I guess telling them the truth is out of the question?
"My wife is a cheating, unrepetant hoe and I don't feel comfortable going right now."
Of course I'm in a crappy mood today, so take that comment with a grain of salt. I just feel like why do LBS's have to tiptoe around everything?
Have fun with your GAL.
Of course I am having a really bad day and feel like IDGAF right now.
I am really really struggling with what to about her sisters grad. They really want me to go and already got me a seat even though I said I want sure. I'm thinking maybe it wouldn't terrible for me to go to just the ceremony at least and then leave? Not sit by her or anything? I have till this weekend to decide.
I guess telling them the truth is out of the question?
"My wife is a cheating, unrepetant hoe and I don't feel comfortable going right now."
Of course I'm in a crappy mood today, so take that comment with a grain of salt. I just feel like why do LBS's have to tiptoe around everything?
Have fun with your GAL.
Of course I am having a really bad day and feel like IDGAF right now.
Yes you can say that as long as you want to ensure getting a D with no hope of ever Ring.
Yea, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't say anything like that. I'm also not really the one that would be uncomfortable im thinking. Most of her family is on my side in this. On one hand, this could be a bit of reality to her that I'll still be in her families lives whether she likes it or not but on the other hand, will that make my situation worse with her going forward as she would blame me for that by going. By going, id also show im not going to be a doormat. It's just something I'm really questioning what to do. Would just love more opinions.
Bewas, I think I would not attend the sisters grad. It is her family after all. But I'd send a card and check. Then you are still engaged with her family but not physically present with them.
Well, I's positive she's having a A now. This morning she sneaked out and got in a car with a man driving. She has no male friends I know of so I think I can put 2 and 2 together...
I'm thinking of having her stuff packed and telling her I want her out of the house tonight? I'm really trying to not text text her right now that I know. How should I handle this?
I knew it was coming but it is still devastating.
Well, I's positive she's having a A now. This morning she sneaked out and got in a car with a man driving. She has no male friends I know of so I think I can put 2 and 2 together...
I'm thinking of having her stuff packed and telling her I want her out of the house tonight? I'm really trying to not text text her right now that I know. How should I handle this?
I knew it was coming but it is still devastating.
All the red flags were there. Sorry man. I know we try to go into denial about the A before we know for sure.
At this point there are few things you can do. Hopefully sandi2 will chime in, she is the best at dealing with a WW involved in an A. She is a tough love advocate. Listening to her has the best chance of successfully snapping your W back into reality. But there are no guarantees.
So if a PA is a deal breaker for you then you need to start moving toward D. That starts by getting a consultation with an attorney. Most of the time the first consultation is free. You need to know what your legal options are.
Also, find a thread where sandi is posting actively and ask her to come here and help you. artista is another valuable resource.
Well, I's positive she's having a A now. This morning she sneaked out and got in a car with a man driving. She has no male friends I know of so I think I can put 2 and 2 together...
I'm thinking of having her stuff packed and telling her I want her out of the house tonight? I'm really trying to not text text her right now that I know. How should I handle this?
I knew it was coming but it is still devastating.
Take your time and think this through. Onve those words come out of your mouth, you can't put them back. You're in a tight spot right now and emotions are running high. Take a few deep breaths, go for a walk, and think about what you really want to do. If you do decide to call her out on it, I can almost 100% guarantee she will deny it. He'll be "just a friend" of some other BS. Be ready for that...
Bewas, I am very sorry about the news. Time to move from the current situation. You can not control her. Control yourself. Take care of yourself and your son.
Take action to regain respect. Have you read about boundaries? It is a must do to DB.
Stay strong man.
I stand on tough love toward a WW in an A. However, I believe it is much more effective to use the "let her go" method, and let her believe she is the one being dumped instead of her giving you the boot. I say this from the VP of a woman......and former WW. If men would do this as soon as he gets the bomb, it would speed things up dramatically. Every WW who has come to this board has said when her H dropped her.....that cracked her A fog.
The first loss the wayward should experience is her H. When everything is laid out and she starts with the usual BS of not seeing a future with him, etc., he should start immediately in pulling away. He needs to do it to the degree she feels his absence in her everyday life. And it is important that the H does not make any grand announcements about his intentions. He doesn't talk. He acts. He doesn't tell her what he's doing, he just does it.
* Immediately separate the sleeping arrangements, by putting her things out of the master bedroom. No discussions, he just takes her things out of the marital bedroom. Let her figure out where she will sleep. The H's message is he won't sleep with a cheater. The H is not to take the lesser desired room or bed. No moving down to a basement, out in the garage, on the couch, etc. He is not the unfaithful spouse. He should not act as if he is the guilty party, sneaking around to sleep on the couch and keeping it a secret from the kids. It is her problem, let her deal with it.
*Immediately stop all contacting throughout the day. If there are any decisions that need to be made about kids, school, babysitting, pickups, etc,. Tell her to get it straighten out the night before and no texting him about details later. (He is not to explain that he is going NC, etc.) He completely withdraws his part of the texting, emails, and calls unless it is urgent. He is not to use the kids as an excuse to contact her. She needs to feel this loss. He is not being available at her fingertips.
*Immediately stop all the little things he use to do for her as a loving act of service. Taking her coffee, servicing her car, cooking her breakfast, carrying in the groceries for her, washing her clothes, cleaning her messes, etc. If she asks, he should just look at her and say, "Really?" (Now, if she really cannot lift the bags of groceries, he can help, but the point is for him to withdraw volunteering those little things she took for granted).
*Immediately stop engaging in R talks, b/c when he gets sucked into one of these talks......it shows her how badly he wants to hang on to her. The message she should be getting is that he is not interested. Do not even try to initiate small talk. If she initiates small talk at the dinner table or in front of the kids, then he should respond in civil but few words. His talk should be more focused on the kids and perhaps their scheduling for the following day. He is not to reveal details of his GAL plans during any of these conversations, other than saying he will be out. If she asks any questions, he should simply give her that incredulous look that says, "Seriously?"
*Immediately withdraw his physical presence from her as much as possible. He should spend time with his kids, of course, but not alone time with her. He should not engage in usual family events, celebrations, etc. It is better the kids be disappointed for a shorter period of time than a lifetime of hurt.
*Immediately withdraw all physical affection. No hugs, kisses, pats, cuddling, snuggling, or spooning. Remember, she is having an affair. The H is not in competition with OM. He will not score points by giving her affection. Withdrawing affection will be noticed by the WW. What I have noticed from the majority of LBH'S is how it's him that has the problem withdrawing the physical touch. He cries about how hard it is and he misses her closeness. He has to stay really focused, especially when she starts to tempt you sexually. This is entrapment!
*Do not recognize her birthday, Valentines, anniversary, mother's day, or any other holiday by giving her gifts. Are you kidding me? She is cheating! She has said she isn't in love with him and doesn't see a future together, and he wants to set her on a feather pillow and treat her like a princess b/c the calendar and our commercial society has brainwashed us to buy something on those dates?
The H needs to think of what he would have done in a dating relationship where the woman was cheating with another man. Would he chase, plead, serve, constantly text, email, write love letter, send songs, have flowers delivered, and give gifts to anyone who treated him like cr@p? Would he hang out at her place every evening, hoping she might notice how great he is? Would he try to kiss and snuggle with her when she's made it obvious she is interested in another man? Marriage is not dating, but the man-woman dynamics do not change. Why do men turn from being the self confident male he was before M, into a soft- passive-clinging-fearing-doormat? This is so unattractive to all women.......single or married.
*The H should stop paying for anything that enables her to continue her A. Paying for her cell phone, buying gas for her to go "out", paying for her beautification (hair, nails, plastic surgery, spas, etc.). No financing any of her trips, whatsoever. If W has her own income, he should put the savings account in his name (minus whatever amount she may have contributed) and start his own private checking account. The message to her is that the financial security that wa once available for her access has been limited, and could be stopped altogether.
As a result of these actions by the H, the WW experiences loss of the H's availability, his presence, his intimacy, his physical affection, his meaningful conversations/interactions, his attention & closeness, his acts of service, his words of love & affirmation, quality family time, and his financial assistance/support. If he will do all of this together, and if he would do it immediately, she will experience the loss. It doesn't guarantee to end her A. In fact, b/c she feels loss of control, she will play a lot of games to get it back. She wants the security that was provided to her, but she doesn't want to give up the A to have it. That's her selfishness leading.
Men get confused and say, "But isn't this more of the same behavior from me?". IDK, but I know that the difference here is what she wanted back then.....and how she feels now. Your motives and attitudes were different back then, from what they are now. Nothing about this will be more of the same. The dynamics have changed.
The H needs to be extremely strong and confident. He cannot backslide and have sex when she comes on to him (game playing) b/c it will put him back at the start position again. Who wants to go through it again?
How long he remains in this stage of DBing is up to the H. However, he should not end these detached actions and just go back to being as he was before she dropped the bomb. He may not quickly see true evidence of positive results from the loss he has caused her. WW's are very crafty. They will play on every emotion the H holds (guilt being number one). In his desperation to see some "sign", he often falls for her little game of manipulation. Even though she has said she no longer feels anything for him, he will use all her feminine wiles to keep him in her control. Things usually get much worse before they get better, and he will need to stand taller and stronger. It may take a physical separation before she completely faces the full impact of her reality. The H should not fear a separation, nor try to talk her out of it. He should not help her with any of the process in getting set up in a new place for her.
Bewas, there you go. Sandi just laid it out for you. Question now is, are you going to man up and, to steal a phrase from my Indian coworkers, do the needful?
Bewas, print what Sandi wrote and read it every night. Check on each item.
I'm not really understanding what "do the needful" means but one boundary I've set up for myself is that even getting in a car with another man is unacceptable and I need to start standing up for myself. She needs to know she can't walk on me anymore. I'm not done fighting for my marriage but she needs to know I'm not accepting this and there will be consequences. I need to be all in on the tough love now.
I'm not really understanding what "do the needful" means but one boundary I've set up for myself is that even getting in a car with another man is unacceptable and I need to start standing up for myself. She needs to know she can't walk on me anymore. I'm not done fighting for my marriage but she needs to know I'm not accepting this and there will be consequences. I need to be all in on the tough love now.
Do the needful means, do what is necessary. What sandi laid out for you is what is necessary to give you the best chance to avoid eventual D, or even to eventually R even after a D. If you want to have the best chance to shake your WW out of the wayward fog, you will adhere strictly to sandi's instructions.
Ok, so I think I may have jumped to conclusions actually. In doing a little digging, the car belongs to the boyfriend of one of my W's new "BFF's". I'm pretty sure she was getting picked up to go and get our truck from the restaurant they left it last night where she was drinking with them. Not to say she still isn't doing anything or wanting to but I think this situation itself is probably a false alarm. Should I at this point be doing normal DB'ing or the more tough love DB'ing according to Sandi?
GGW, partying like a teenager, and/or EAs and PAs is still wayward. Do as sandi says.
So, regardless if she is in an A (EA or PA or just imaginary) or just acting like a teenager and going out for drinks on a weekday, I should be adhering to the "tough love" tactics outlined by Sandi as opposed to the standard DB rules in my situation?
I'll let sandi answer this, but at this point I think you should assume an EA, and probably even a PA.
FWIW, and notwithstanding my own somewhat peculiar sitch, i am a big believer in the LBH dropping his own bomb on the affair-having WW ASAP. The longer the affair goes, the more involved and difficult for the WW to "get over" it can become.
In my case, my W and i had nothing, and i mean NOTHING to salvage at the time of her A and BD. Had i dropped the bomb on her i am reasonably certain the response would have been "Meh, okay, see ya!" But, that's my sitch, and my MR was abnormally, and some including me might have said irretrievably damaged already at the time. No intimacy left between us. In your case, sounds as if even though there may have been some "dimming of the fire" and some
of neglect or of waning intimacy, that, until relatively recently, things were fairly good between you and your W, yes? (Her post-partum depression notwithstanding).
hoos that is an outstanding point. You and I both preempted our WWs' EAs, which means we caught them early, and we both were the catalyst for the BD. And we both caught it before it went to PA, or at least full blown PA. And you and I both are in piecing and R.
I've said before, EAs and even PAs are like cancer. The earlier you catch it, the greater the chance at full recovery.
I posted an entire page, and you didn't say a word......but got hung up over one line Steve quoted? Is this a form of denial? I think maybe it is.
Look back at my last post. I copied and pasted it from my WW thread. What was the first sentence? I stated that I stand by tough love toward the WW in an affair. Then I explained about the importance of her experiencing loss due to her decision to have an affair.
So, regardless if she is in an A (EA or PA or just imaginary) or just acting like a teenager and going out for drinks on a weekday, I should be adhering to the "tough love" tactics outlined by Sandi as opposed to the standard DB rules in my situation
How do you mean "as opposed to the standard DB rules"? What are you calling the standard rules?
What exactly in my advice scares you the most?
Hi Sandi,
Sorry, I did read your post over a few times already. It's all amazing advice. What I meant by standard rules was your "37 rules" which seem slightly different than the tough love rules for a WW. Or am I just overthinking it?
The only thing scary about the advice is the simple fact that I don't have 100% proof of an actual A. Not to say I don't think there is at least something coming at the very least at some point the longer this goes on.
You say to use tough love to a WW in an affair, do I do that if I don't have definitive proof? Both my head and heart are telling me I need to stand up for myself. Probably sooner rather than later.
Hi Hoosjim,
Yes as far as I knew our marriage was pretty good aside from some of the normal squabbles that couples have but overall we were always a solid team. Not much fighting, usually on the same page in terms of thinking, dreams were similar, etc. She always had such high moral standards and upbringing too which is why this can be so baffling to me.
The last 6 months or so were where we had probably the most stress we've had as a couple. Especially financially. We just seemed to kind of disconnect a little as we both have different methods for dealing with massive stress. It kind of kept us apart. The baby didn't really help matters in the fact that he kind of kept us from being able to go out on "dates" and such as much. I'm sure she felt resentment in the fact that to her, the pressure was on her to make it through the financial problems even though I had actually been working a lot to help cover things (even though I was also full time watching my son). The simple fact of the matter is that when I mean financial trouble, I'm merely talking about a large chunk of our savings having to be used for unexpected things. We were never in any "actual" trouble. It was still extremely stressful though having one thing after another go wrong.
Do you think dropping her a "i want you to leave" or something similar would be appropriate in my case?
If men would do this as soon as he gets the bomb, it would speed things up dramatically. Every WW who has come to this board has said when her H dropped her.....that cracked her A fog.
*Immediately withdraw all physical affection. No hugs, kisses, pats, cuddling, snuggling, or spooning. Remember, she is having an affair. The H is not in competition with OM. He will not score points by giving her affection. Withdrawing affection will be noticed by the WW. What I have noticed from the majority of LBH'S is how it's him that has the problem withdrawing the physical touch. He cries about how hard it is and he misses her closeness. He has to stay really focused, especially when she starts to tempt you sexually. This is entrapment!
*The H should stop paying for anything that enables her to continue her A. Paying for her cell phone, buying gas for her to go "out", paying for her beautification (hair, nails, plastic surgery, spas, etc.). No financing any of her trips, whatsoever. If W has her own income, he should put the savings account in his name (minus whatever amount she may have contributed) and start his own private checking account. The message to her is that the financial security that wa once available for her access has been limited, and could be stopped altogether.
Sandi,
A few questions on these as they don't really apply to me right now.
In terms of the physical affection, there is non of that right now. She has completely shut down that way towards me since BD about 3 weeks ago. She is still very cold and angry towards me, a little less so than at the beginning but still not wanting anything to do with me that way. Is that something "normal" for a WW?
In terms of the financial situation, she makes more money than I do at this point (as bad as she is with it notwithstanding) so I can't really do much about this other than split what's in our account and go from there I suppose. The way she is spending lately, she'll spend herself into ruin anyways. I suppose I shouldn't worry about the points that don't apply correct?
In terms of the H dropping a bomb of his own to the WW, would this work if in fact she hasn't started an A or is just perhaps in a fantasy A? I'm really feeling the need to drop HER right now. I just feel so disrespected by her right now.
Thanks for your insight Sandi!
What I meant by standard rules was your "37 rules" which seem slightly different than the tough love rules for a WW. Or am I just overthinking it?
I guess my next question would be, which ones do you see slightly different? I suspect you are over thinking to some degree. Bear in mind that the list of 37 rules is intended for a very wide range of situations, so you have to use good judgment in how or which ones are pertinent to your personal situation. These were intended as a guide for newcomers who had no idea of which way to turn when they first arrived. They would ask what was the first things they should do, or stop doing. Thus, the reason for the list.
So now I am wondering what you think I mean when I refer to
tough love. I often use the parent - child illustration, b/c every parent usually has to implement tough love at some point. Another example would be a parent and an adult child addicted to drugs/alcohol. If you have a teenager who is willfully disrespecting rules/laws, are you going to bail him out, clean up his mess, scream at the police, make excuses for him, enabling him.............or allow him to suffer the consequences of his actions? If you have an adult child who is killing himself with drugs.......do you keep cleaning him up, feeding him, giving him a clean bed to sleep in, hand him money to buy more drugs.......or do you refuse to rescue him and allow him to experience the reality of his decisions? IMHO, these are two examples of tough love.
You see, you can't be passive Mr. Nice Guy in these type of situations, and have effective results. You can't always act like Mr. Nice Guy and get everyone's respect. Human beings just don't operate on that kind of behavior system. We have an old sin nature, and we have to learn to respect our parents, the law, etc. Sure, parents love their kids, but if they want them to be morally decent people, they are not only going to show them love, but teach them right from wrong......and enforce appropriate behavior. The parents enforce respectful actions, and in return the parents will be respected by the child.
In a man & woman MR, the H is the head of the home. He has tremdous responsibility. If his W does not show support and respectful behavior toward her H, then he loses his authority as the head. When the woman marries her H, her loving feelings are tied to her respect for him.....and as the head of their family. If her level of respectful feelings begin to fade, her feelings of being in love will dissipate. Much like a child will test his parents, a woman will test her H....... b/c she inheritedly needs him to be stronger than she is. So, she'll push his buttons and test his limits to see what it will take to make him stand up to her. If he acts like a doormat instead of standing up to her......she loses respect, b/c he proved he is not the stronger spouse and does not deserve to be the head. She basically places him in a submissive position (or rather, he placed himself).......and In time, her treatment of him grows worse.....showing more signs of disrespect. Then one day she drops the bomb and tells him she loves him but doesn't feel
in love with him. Mr. Nice Guy wonders why, and thinks he'll be
nicer, more accommodating, spoil her even more so that she doesn't have to lift a finger, be her BFF...........then maybe she'll like him more. However, she gets colder, less interested in him personally, less involved in their MR, and increasingly dissatisfied. She reads romance novels, watches loves stories, and dreams of having such a man. She secretly desires a man who dominantes her. Not a domineering man, but a dominant male.
Oh well, I didn't mean to write a book. It's hard to find a place to stop.
Sandi2,
The last paragraph thatvyou wrote above has a chilling truth. I feel its a mirror reflection of what I went through and how my wife treated me with more and more disrespect.
In terms of the H dropping a bomb of his own to the WW, would this work if in fact she hasn't started an A or is just perhaps in a fantasy A? I'm really feeling the need to drop HER right now. I just feel so disrespected by her right now.
Dropping a bomb indicates something verbal, IMHO. What did you have in mind?
I do agree that you need to let her go. If she feels she is being dumped, even better. But when a H with NGS starts suggesting countering her bomb drop with his own......I am suspicious of him wanting to make some grand announcement......and they simply don't work with a wayward. She watches the H's
action.
Unless you are prepared to physically walk away (separating), then I don't think just a bomb drop will be effective in getting the results you want. It's basically seen as just more talk.
If my spouse had given me the bomb drop, I wouldn't share the same bed with him, but that's just me. If he was showing disrespect toward our M, I would not share the same bed.
In my WW thread (I think the first one), I wrote about the marital bedroom and what it represents in the home. When the M has been disrespected/betrayed, then that is viewed as "grounds" (so to speak) to ask the betrayer to leave the marital bedroom. The faithful spouse should remain the marital bedroom........if at all possible.
In some cases, physical separation is needed, before the couple can reconcile. These are my own opinions.
Hi Sandi,
In terms of what I've had in mind for my BD, I've been thinking of telling her that I'M DONE WITH HER and her disrespect of both our M and our family and I'd like her to leave, and leave asap. She's been the one threatening to move out anyways, without any action of course. I've definitely been the one hanging on and she knows it and has been playing me to still do stuff for her when it suits her. I'm just feeling so disrespected by her actions lately, an OM or not. I definitely have been the door mat "nice guy" too many times and I'm quite done with it tbh. I have lately been thinking her being out on her own for a while would wake her up a bit.
I want to assure you that I am in your corner. I am just trying to help you to see how things may go.
I've been thinking of telling her that I'M DONE WITH HER and her disrespect of both our M and our family and I'd like her to leave, and leave asap
It sounds fine, but it also sounds like an invitation for a relationship talk that will end with you no futher along than you are now. She gave you a BD and has done nothing. So,
what if she refuses to leave? What is your next option?
It sounds fine, but it also sounds like an invitation for a relationship talk that will end with you no futher along than you are now. She gave you a BD and has done nothing. So,
what if she refuses to leave? What is your next option?
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. I know I need to be prepared to leave the M myself but I'm not sure how else to do that other than either file for D myself or move out myself, and neither option seems very palatable. It seems to me that if I packed her stuff up and had it ready to go, then told her to leave, she would be defiant and at worst demand time to find a place. Still, I guess I shouldn't be surprised by anything at this point with her. She very well could just leave too.
I still don't have any definitive proof of OM, but I'm sure there has to be some kind of fantasy she is in right now, real or imagined.
Especially considering the sudden change in behaviour basically overnight with her. I'm 100% positive that resentment towards me had been slowly building and something just caused her to snap into this WW she has become.
I noticed through our shared google account that she added a call recorder app to her phone. I'm assuming it's too record me for future lawyer issues even though we've barely talked on the phone of late. I know at this point, she still wants a D, she just hasn't done anything about it other than enforcing separation between us in the house.
I screwed up last night and inadvertently got sucked into an R talk. I let myself get caught off guard. I had been doing decently well the last while too regarding detachment. Unfortunately, she sees me following the dB rules as me being an ass and says that's how I've been acting towards her. Perhaps I haven't been as pleasant as I should be but im assuming that this is normal behaviour for a WW to start seeing detachment like this? Basically I was put on blast for pretty much everything she thinks I've done wrong in the past 2 years. Almost all of it was to do with the job situations and pressures associated with it. Some of it was true, some of it was twisted to her narrative. In the end, she is just as adamant that the MR is over and for me to get over it. Over this whole situation so far, the only real emotion she has shown me is anger to varying degrees. I have not seen any sadness as of yet.
I know I probably should have just walked away, I just set myself back again. I know I have my work cut out for me in regards to detaching. I need to be stronger to resist the R talk. I know I need to be on guard at all times with her.
Another question I have for you Sandi, is it possible for a WW to just "wake up" a year or two down the road and realize what they have done even if they have not been humbled or reality never really hit them? Or does it only ever happen through losses? If reality never cracks the fantasy, it would just get stronger I assume?
You really need to read No More Mr. Nice Guy. This is NGS to a tee.
Think about it. She's declared wanting a D. Wants in house separation. And then has the audacity to say your acting like a donkey for your behavior related to DBing? U know when we get sucked into R weare supposed tojust validate. But I'm also for pointing out when someone is being a giant hypocrite. Even though she won't listen because even her hypocrisy is your fault in her mind.
But yes WWs react like this when they feel their control slipping away. Keep up the good work. Next time she calls you a butt for GAL and detaching a simple "I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm preparing myself to move on from our MR since I can't stop you from Ding."
Also remember that WW are lazy as sin when it comes to the actual D. She will act out trying to get you to file. Don't do her dirty work for her!!
One more thing. Make sure you aren't being a donkey! Just because she accuses you of it doesn't mean you are. But detaching is not being mean. If you are struggling with loving detachment then reread the detachment thread.
Detachment is not letting her words and actions affect you emotionally. Based on your last post you are not there.
Another question I have for you Sandi, is it possible for a WW to just "wake up" a year or two down the road and realize what they have done even if they have not been humbled or reality never really hit them? Or does it only ever happen through losses? If reality never cracks the fantasy, it would just get stronger I assume?
That's a valid question. It would be interesting to hear a round table discussion on the subject from a group of former WW's. When I try to put it into words, it starts getting more complexed. So, bear with me here.
I feel it is highly unlikely for her to "wake up", without those experiences you mentioned. I have observed this type of situation for a long time even before I knew the psychology (if you will) behind it, or experienced it myself. I can't recall a case where the WW came to her senses and returned to her former self......in
that MR with
that LBH. B/c it takes self effort, self discipline, cooperation, and in most cases.... some type of counseling or accountability. It is a
process to bring your mindset back to a healthy mental place. There is no snapping out of it. We may inadvertly use that word, but it is not an action that is suddenly done & over. I am very suspicious of any wayward W who claims anything "suddenly". She didn't become wayward overnight (even if some H's think so) and she can't complete her way back over night.
The cases I remember where a WW was involved, the couple would divorce, and she'd move on to another man. If she was lucky, she would marry an alpha type who took none of her b.s. and held her feet to the fire. I've seen these WW's respect these second or third H and not have the problems as with the first H who she disrespected. Of course, this can get deeper and I could talk about the type that is wayward with
all their H's in
every MR......but I'll spare you.
I think you really want to know about a WW who stays with the betrayed/disrespected H, and she doesn't have consequences, or experience loss.....etc. does she just kind of ease back into her former self? I don't believe so. I wished it was like the movies, where she sees how good a man her H is, and fall in love all over again. But she can't, as long as the disrespect goes unresolved. That's why we say, you can't nice back a .WW. At best, the couple would live together as roommates and he would settle for whatever level friendship (if you could even call it such) that she offered on a "good mood" day. The H would basically give up sex for the remainder of his life, and try to endure a woman who does not respect him........all in the name of keeping his family together for the sake of his kids.
Let me add this part, since we are talking about possibilities. I was raised in a strong Christian environment and M into the same type of family. I was very active in Church, but there was a little part of my heart that struggled throughout my entire M. I would try to forgive my H, and go on.....but the feelings of disrespect was constantly gaining. We had been suffering in several areas for many years. Long story shortened........I had an Internet A. In time, I begin to see little red flags in OM and I needed someone to talk to about it. One night I "accidentally" found my way to this board, and there were just the right people who were able to get my attention. I give them and this board a lot of credit for helping me to get my eyes opened. However, I also give credit and much thanks to God. I can look back and see how the timing of things all fell into place.......and I just had to make the decision to "do the right thing", based on my personal values & beliefs. Even after making that decision to end my A and start showing respect for my H, it took me nearly two years before I could work through my fantasy issues and resentment/disrespect issues. This is a lot of stuff to process, and most LBH's just have no clue and think she should just "snap" back.
There is no "snapping back". It is a long, trying, and painful process for her. Want to know why? Everything about her waywardness was built on feelings/emotions/fantasy........mostly negative/inappropriate. Waywardness is an act of volition, it is never forced on anyone against their will. When the WW experiences something that makes her see herself in true light of day,........she cannot wait around on feelings to guide her or she'll likely stay stuck. She has to make decisions based on the right thing to do.......and from her own free will. It is so hard b/c her feelings are not cooperating with the right thing to do. Unless, and until, she experiences true remorse, her heart can't open up for positive feelings for her H. She has to completely let go of all the resentment over the past, and she has to intentionally show respectful behavior for her H before her loving feelings catch up. It's easy when we fall in love the first time around. We have all those wonderful feelings floating around in us. When we are working our way back from waywardness, we are more likely to find ourselves feeling
nothing for our spouse........and it's scary. Not being able to have her feelings return for her H is the scarest thing for a WW, when she's considering staying in the M. The feelings
can return! But she's got to work through all those main issues first.
Anyway, I
did suffer some those things you mentioned, but not nearly as much as a lot of WW's. That's where I have to give thanks to God and the people who gave me the information I needed. I think it was a combination of the right information and my faith that really got me back on track. Without the understanding of forgiveness being an act of grace, and knowing I could never be at peace with God until I
did repent for my A and I
did forgive my H for the past.........I just don't think I would have pulled out of it without a lot of effort on my part. B/c it
is an act of volition....going into the waywardness and coming out of it. FWIW, it's a lot easier going in than coming out! I had a lot of stubborn pride, and that's why it took me nearly two years. I'm not saying it takes that long for every person.....but it is a process.
Wow! IDK if I answered your question or not.....but I said a lot. Let me give this word of what I hope is encouragement. At the base of waywardness lies disrespect. If you are going to remain in a M with a WW, you have to hold her feet to the fire about showing you respect. You can't help what she thinks/feels.....but you don't take her outward show of disrespect for you and the MR. If there is ever hope things will change......it will come by you commanding (not demanding) respect as her H and as the head of the family. Make the needed changes if you have NGS......b/c you
can change a lot. Set boundaries and carry through with enforcing consequences if they are dishonored.
You really need to read No More Mr. Nice Guy. This is NGS to a tee.
Think about it. She's declared wanting a D. Wants in house separation. And then has the audacity to say your acting like a donkey for your behavior related to DBing? U know when we get sucked into R weare supposed tojust validate. But I'm also for pointing out when someone is being a giant hypocrite. Even though she won't listen because even her hypocrisy is your fault in her mind.
But yes WWs react like this when they feel their control slipping away. Keep up the good work. Next time she calls you a butt for GAL and detaching a simple "I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm preparing myself to move on from our MR since I can't stop you from Ding."
Also remember that WW are lazy as sin when it comes to the actual D. She will act out trying to get you to file. Don't do her dirty work for her!!
She hasn't really stated she "wants" in house separation, she just agreed to it fairly readily. She has said multiple times before, especially when we get into little tussles, that she wants to move out but she actually hasn't done anything about it as far as I know. I know that at the initial BD phase, she was super gung ho about looking for a house & mortgage, but when she realized that wasn't happening anytime soon, she backed off quickly. I can't ever tell if she is actually serious about anything as I can't trust a word she says.
I found it unbelievable when she actually had the audacity to accuse me of being "spiteful" for acting like I was...I was like, seriously?? I suppose that's their own messed up brain twisting the narrative to their favor. I wasn't being spiteful at all, maybe a little cold and detached but never spiteful. I feel that for sure I need to work on loving detachment as you said.
in terms of detachment working, I could tell she was really bothered by the fact that I'm going away this weekend and she doesn't know what I'm doing. She kept saying things like, "I have nothing to hide, but here you are going somewhere overnight", etc. She brought it up multiple times and at the end, she followed it up by stating she "doesn't care" what I'm doing and is only concerned because I'm taking our better vehicle. Right. For something simple like that, she sure seemed bothered by it to me. So I think detachment and GAL is working at least to a degree right now. I haven't had a lot of chances yet to GAL but I'm making a real effort going forward. She is still firm in her wanting to end things but it's still so early in this process to know for sure one way or the other. I know I either set myself back a little by the R argument we had last night or at the very least spun my tires but i'm just going to dust myself off and start again.
I know going forward I cannot be afraid of her or fear her actually filing for the D, but I definitely will not help her with it.
Thanks for your input Steve!
bewas, you really struck on something with the "gung ho on looking for a house and mortgage". Likely it was too much work. WWs are notoriously lazy about following through on things. My W started her resume a couple weeks after BD. Then she gave up. When I asked her how it was going she said she had hit a roadblock on what to put in her Objective Summary, and she never worked on it again. That is about when she gave up on the apartment since a job had to proceed getting an apartment.
So yeah, likely she will make grand statements and do nothing towards them. It is the epitome of the fantasy fog that WWs have. When that fantasy requires heavy lifting they just quietly put an end to it.
Wow, thanks Sandi!
That's a lot of truly insightful information and it definitely answers my question.
So I'm really needing for reality to be hitting her for this situation to possibly end up in a decent place with her. I definitely do need to change myself regardless of where this ends up with my W. I really need to 180 on the main issues that caused her resentment towards me and stop being the nice guy moving forward to garner some respect back.
Now I know you have a huge thread about the WW and dealing with her and I think it had some info about this, but I'm still kind of struggling with boundaries and consequences.
For instance, would a boundary being crossed to me be something like her going to drinks with her friends till almost midnight dressed skimpy and not wearing her wedding ring on a weekday? Even though we are separated and I can't really enforce that boundary and therefore I have no idea what a consequence would or could be for that?
Or is the boundary something more along the lines of a personal attack towards me like openly calling me something bad, etc. What would an appropriate consequence example be? Sorry if it's been mentioned before, but it's one thing I need to understand more of going forward to help my situation.
bewas, you really struck on something with the "gung ho on looking for a house and mortgage". Likely it was too much work. WWs are notoriously lazy about following through on things. My W started her resume a couple weeks after BD. Then she gave up. When I asked her how it was going she said she had hit a roadblock on what to put in her Objective Summary, and she never worked on it again. That is about when she gave up on the apartment since a job had to proceed getting an apartment.
So yeah, likely she will make grand statements and do nothing towards them. It is the epitome of the fantasy fog that WWs have. When that fantasy requires heavy lifting they just quietly put an end to it.
You are right, it definitely was going to be too much work and not end up how she wanted it to so that's why she gave up on it so quickly. I'm thinking it will be the same thing in terms of her "moving out" unless perhaps I tell her I want her to move out. In that case, I'm not entirely sure how she will respond. I sure as hell won't help her move out if that's what she chooses.
I will definitely say that at the beginning of this situation she definitely didn't seem "lazy" as she was making lawyer appointments, bank appointments, looking at houses online and new vehicles, it's just that after the "reality" and difficulty of the situation started to hit her that she mostly stopped all of that. I think as you said, she was starting all these things but has yet to follow through with anything other than standing her ground with quitting the MR.
Yep my wife was the same way. Except for the lawyer appointments. But other than that she was doing a lot of "internet research". The laziness hit once the actual work had to be done.
And my wife was insistent that she was done with the marriage until 8 weeks in. 8 weeks in something flipped in her. And since the end of Feb. she has been all back in.
Bewas, good luck in incorporating these changes. Reread your thread, the advice, the rules.
Make sure your detachment is coming off as neutral, and not mean. That's my only advice.
So I've been thinking, does a person having a predisposition to mental illness (ie: moderate to severe depression) make the mental shift to being wayward more easily? I ask because my W has always been really affected by depression from before I even knew her. She's also had severe postpartum depression to which I do not think she's ever recovered completely? I'm just wondering if a connection has ever been able to be made?
I think that unhappiness in the MR is often related to unhappiness with ones self. It is often easier to look outward and blame a MR than it is to take stock of oneself and own the unhappiness and work to make the internal changes necessary. My own W was deeply depressed for years. She started to get better and then felt the MR was holding her back (not entirely incorrectly!).
I was glancing back over your thread and saw something I must have missed previously.
One thing I remember that I kind of brushed off and now think has much more meaning is that when she initially dropped the bomb on me, I was crying of course, doing all the wrong things because of shock, I remember seeing little "smirks" on the side of her mouth she was trying really hard to stop. I yelled at her why she is smiling and she said she wasn't and then would turn her head. I'm thinking she was almost enjoying it looking back. That really seems like something a WW would do...it actually sickens me thinking about it now.
This says volumes about the status of your relationship. If she was trying to hide her smiles at watching your obvious gut wrenching pain........this woman is in deep. Her heart is not just cold.......it is frozen.
She hasn't really stated she "wants" in house separation, she just agreed to it fairly readily.
Let me tell you something, Bewas. You are struggling with accepting the reality about your W and the crisis of your MR. At first, you couldn't decide if she was wayward b/c you didn't have solid evidence of an A. An affair does not really determine if she is wayward. The waywardness begins in her heart/mind, and an affair is her outward rebellion against her M........just like some other actions are a sign of rebellion.
She hasn't really stated she "wants" in house separation, she just agreed to it fairly readily.
So now, you are saying that she really hasn't said the words "in-house separation". I think you are in denial and don't want to accept the truth. She agreed b/c she benefits from it. It eating cake for her. She has a built-in baby sitter, cook, and homemaker. She can go out at night and behave like Girls Gone Wild (GGW) and then go home and go to bed without having to deal with any responsibilities as a mother and wife. You are holding down the fort, while she goes out on the town.
You are living in-house S, whether or not the words were said. She wants a D, you begged her to stay, she is sleeping in a separate bed, and she often threatens to leave.
I found it unbelievable when she actually had the audacity to accuse me of being "spiteful" for acting like I was...I was like, seriously?? I suppose that's their own messed up brain twisting the narrative to their favor
Absolutely, she will twist everything around. Here is where H's mess up, b/c they get distracted (which is exactly what she wanted) and the attention on
his behavior instead of hers. He starts trying to convince her he wasn't doing whatever she accuses.........and it is totally beside the point.
She is the wayward spouse! You don't have to stand there and give her an excuse for how you reacted to her waywardness. Stay focused. If she says something about your attitude or actions, say nothing. Just give her a dry or nonchalant look and say nothing about your feelings or actions. This is not about you......it is about her!
I know going forward I cannot be afraid of her or fear her actually filing for the D, but I definitely will not help her with it.
What scares you the most? What could be worse than what you are experiencing right now? What will you lose that you haven't lost already? I'm not trying to be callous, just wanting you to talk about your fears. If you get a job, you'll probably give up at least 8 hrs a day with your son. If you split with her, you may lose 50% time with him. If I had to guess, that is your biggest fear, b/c your love & attachment is very deep. Just leaving him to go to a job every day would be difficult for you. I have a lot of empathy for you. None of this is what you want to face, but know your fear by name.....and how to face it. FWIW, we are here to support you as best that we can. We will share what we have learned, and hopefully, spare you a lot of mistakes and this MR can be saved. Realistically, there are no guarantees. She has a will of her own and you can't control her. However, your actions can be influential.
I want you to read a short little page on detachment. It's short & simple. Go to the top of your page to Search and type the word Peanut and enter. If you see my name in the list, click on it and see if it takes you to a copy of Peanut's definition of DB detaching. If it doesn't work, let me know.
Your first step is to learn what DB detaching really means. Implement the 37 rules. Any questions about them, ask me. The next thing we need to discuss is boundaries.
bewas, you really struck on something with the "gung ho on looking for a house and mortgage". Likely it was too much work. WWs are notoriously lazy about following through on things.
I've been seeing this a lot on the board and it finally made something make sense to me. My W said she was going to move out and was never really making to much of an effort. When I found out about the A, I told her to leave and she lived out of the van for about a month before she found a place. Whenever our sitch was discussed, I always said she decided to leave. Her version was that I kicked her out. My reply was always, no, you said you wanted a separation and were going to move out. You walked out on me and the kids. Her response to that was, she was "actively" looking for a place and I kicked her out. Any time it was brought up, the word "actively" was alway placed in front of looking for a place. In hindsight, it makes me wonder if she was ever going to move out or if it was all a bunch of BS or too much work. Sometimes I wonder where we'dbe if I didn't aske her to leave. At the same time, she was banging other dudes, so she had to go...
I was glancing back over your thread and saw something I must have missed previously.
One thing I remember that I kind of brushed off and now think has much more meaning is that when she initially dropped the bomb on me, I was crying of course, doing all the wrong things because of shock, I remember seeing little "smirks" on the side of her mouth she was trying really hard to stop. I yelled at her why she is smiling and she said she wasn't and then would turn her head. I'm thinking she was almost enjoying it looking back. That really seems like something a WW would do...it actually sickens me thinking about it now.
This says volumes about the status of your relationship. If she was trying to hide her smiles at watching your obvious gut wrenching pain........this woman is in deep. Her heart is not just cold.......it is frozen.
She hasn't really stated she "wants" in house separation, she just agreed to it fairly readily.
Let me tell you something, Bewas. You are struggling with accepting the reality about your W and the crisis of your MR. At first, you couldn't decide if she was wayward b/c you didn't have solid evidence of an A. An affair does not really determine if she is wayward. The waywardness begins in her heart/mind, and an affair is her outward rebellion against her M........just like some other actions are a sign of rebellion.
She hasn't really stated she "wants" in house separation, she just agreed to it fairly readily.
So now, you are saying that she really hasn't said the words "in-house separation". I think you are in denial and don't want to accept the truth. She agreed b/c she benefits from it. It eating cake for her. She has a built-in baby sitter, cook, and homemaker. She can go out at night and behave like Girls Gone Wild (GGW) and then go home and go to bed without having to deal with any responsibilities as a mother and wife. You are holding down the fort, while she goes out on the town.
You are living in-house S, whether or not the words were said. She wants a D, you begged her to stay, she is sleeping in a separate bed, and she often threatens to leave.
I found it unbelievable when she actually had the audacity to accuse me of being "spiteful" for acting like I was...I was like, seriously?? I suppose that's their own messed up brain twisting the narrative to their favor
Absolutely, she will twist everything around. Here is where H's mess up, b/c they get distracted (which is exactly what she wanted) and the attention on
his behavior instead of hers. He starts trying to convince her he wasn't doing whatever she accuses.........and it is totally beside the point.
She is the wayward spouse! You don't have to stand there and give her an excuse for how you reacted to her waywardness. Stay focused. If she says something about your attitude or actions, say nothing. Just give her a dry or nonchalant look and say nothing about your feelings or actions. This is not about you......it is about her!
I know going forward I cannot be afraid of her or fear her actually filing for the D, but I definitely will not help her with it.
What scares you the most? What could be worse than what you are experiencing right now? What will you lose that you haven't lost already? I'm not trying to be callous, just wanting you to talk about your fears. If you get a job, you'll probably give up at least 8 hrs a day with your son. If you split with her, you may lose 50% time with him. If I had to guess, that is your biggest fear, b/c your love & attachment is very deep. Just leaving him to go to a job every day would be difficult for you. I have a lot of empathy for you. None of this is what you want to face, but know your fear by name.....and how to face it. FWIW, we are here to support you as best that we can. We will share what we have learned, and hopefully, spare you a lot of mistakes and this MR can be saved. Realistically, there are no guarantees. She has a will of her own and you can't control her. However, your actions can be influential.
I want you to read a short little page on detachment. It's short & simple. Go to the top of your page to Search and type the word Peanut and enter. If you see my name in the list, click on it and see if it takes you to a copy of Peanut's definition of DB detaching. If it doesn't work, let me know.
Your first step is to learn what DB detaching really means. Implement the 37 rules. Any questions about them, ask me. The next thing we need to discuss is boundaries.
Thanks Sandi for all of your input and advice. I think it will be essential to me going forward.
I'll start from the top of your post and continue down.
In terms of her smirking during BD, I think that's what they were, again, I can't be 100% sure but that's what it seemed. Regardless, it was the coldness and determination of her that day was what was most scary. My question is, if in fact did smirk and take pleasure in my pain and is in fact as deep as you think, does this make my position that much worse or does it not really change my position either way as she is wayward regardless?
In terms of me accepting the reality of my crisis, I no longer question the waywardness of my W. I still don't think she is actually in an A at this point but I agree, all her other actions are waywardness of heart. Even if she is in an A and is hiding it extremely well, it doesn't change the fact that I know she is a WW and I have my work cut out for me.
I think I misworded when i said she didn't say she wanted in house separation. She had definitely stated we are separated. What I meant was, she initially wanted to move out asap and get a new mortgage but when that wasn't going to happen easily she decided to have an in house separation with me for financial reasons. At the time it was my suggestion and I was surprised by how easily she agreed especially considering I thought it was benefiting me more than her at the time. I agree with you in the fact that she is cake eating. It for sure benefits her to not leave even though she threatens it often and then does nothing about it. I think she does actually want it right now as long as it will last. You are 100% correct in the fact she is cake eating and we are definitively in an in house S.
Yes, I definitely need to work on my reactions towards her when she questions me or tries goading me into a fight. I've looked over the dB detaching article and it's a great resource and something I need to work on.
Now in terms of what my biggest fear is. While losing my son full time and what this is going to do to him long term are major fears of mine, what seems to keep me up at night the most is the fear of having to start my life over again basically from scratch. It scares me. It scares me I may never find another person as amazing as she WAS. It scares me we could basically lose everything we've worked so hard for in the D. I know I need to be confident in myself going forward to overcome these fears but it's very difficult at this stage right now. But I agree with what you said, i really can't feel any worse than what I'm feeling right now.
I know there are no guarantees in this but I have to at least try and save this MR. As i stated earlier, I've looked over the dB detaching thread you said to and will study it.
I know for sure I need help with boundaries and consequences.
Thanks you for your continued help and guidance Sandi, it's going to really help me through this. I really need a solid plan of attack going forward.
bewas, you really struck on something with the "gung ho on looking for a house and mortgage". Likely it was too much work. WWs are notoriously lazy about following through on things.
I've been seeing this a lot on the board and it finally made something make sense to me. My W said she was going to move out and was never really making to much of an effort. When I found out about the A, I told her to leave and she lived out of the van for about a month before she found a place. Whenever our sitch was discussed, I always said she decided to leave. Her version was that I kicked her out. My reply was always, no, you said you wanted a separation and were going to move out. You walked out on me and the kids. Her response to that was, she was "actively" looking for a place and I kicked her out. Any time it was brought up, the word "actively" was alway placed in front of looking for a place. In hindsight, it makes me wonder if she was ever going to move out or if it was all a bunch of BS or too much work. Sometimes I wonder where we'dbe if I didn't aske her to leave. At the same time, she was banging other dudes, so she had to go...
Its interesting you bring the fact that you wonder how your situation would be if you hadn't kicked her out. At this point, I have no evidence of an A with my W, even though I do believe 100% she is wayward at least of heart. I've been seriously considering asking her to leave (immediately at that) myself as the disrespect towards me is getting hard to stomach. She's the one always threatening to leave anyways. I just feel she needs to know her actions have consequences and things aren't going to be as easy as she thinks. I've been the nice guy for far too long and she has no respect for me anymore so this might at least give me some of my balls back. I am still deciding however if this is the best option right now or not.
I have been thinking about starting a thread that gives a Plan of Action for the H of a WW. Maybe I'll work on it tomorrow, will see.
Did you find that page from copied from Peanut on detaching?
Okay, to start explaining boundaries (and I am not an expert), you first have to understand what they are and what they aren't. Think of a personal boundary like an invisible circle around you. This circle is to protect your feelings. Anything that crosses over that line, disrespects you.
You are the one who decides what is offensive/disrespectful to you. This should be based on your standards of values, principles, morals, religious beliefs, integrity, self respect, etc. If something offends you, then there should be a reason it is offensive. In other words, don't just go by whatever you feel that day, b/c emotions can be fickle. When it comes to your boundaries, they should not really change unless your beliefs change to support it. Does that make sense?
You cannot control other people actions. You only control yourself. In a relationship, you can tell the other person their actions are disrespectful toward you. They have the choice of honoring your boundary, or ignoring it. If you can't control anyone but yourself, what happens if your boundary is disrespected after you tell the other person their actions are offensive? You respond with some type of action.
Let's bring it on down to a MR. To clarify by using the word "action", this is not to be interpreted as meaning you respond in any type of violence or abuse. If necessary, take the action to leave.
I believe most WW's have to experience some type of consequences when she shows disrespect to her H. The first time, he can tell her that is disrespectful and he will not tolerate it. The second time it happens, he needs to be ready to respond with some type of action that will result as a consequence for her.......in order to be effective. Of course, he can always walk away or leave the house, but he can't do that for everything or she'll just see him "running away", and interpret it as weakness (depending on the situation). And for nice guys, they have to watch their tendency to be passive-aggressive.
To use an example of a enforcing a boundary, let's say the WW calls her H and is yelling, cursing, and b'tching at him. He tells her he will not tolerate being spoken to over the phone in that disrespectful manner. She ignores him and continues to raise he!!. Does he warn her again? No! What can he do? He hangs up! If she calls again and starts the same stuff, he hangs up and doesn't answer again. No arguing, no negotiation, no more warnings.
That was a simple one, and the bigger the offense, the bigger the consequence should be. Some people might argue that it is punitive. I suppose you will have to make that decision. You are protecting yourself by doing something that clearly gives her the message that you will not be treated in that disrespectful manner. She doesn't have to agree or like it. She doesn't have to do it, but if she ignores your one warning......then there will be some action from you that protects your feelings from her disrespect.
Never say you will not tolerate some behavior, if you can't stand behind your word. In the link on boundaries, I think they use an example of the boundary "I will not stay in an open MR". Some newcomers with a WW in an A thought they would jump right on that one. Well guess what? The A did not stop and the newcomers were trying to back peddle, b/c they were not ready to carrying through with what they said.
What makes you feel disrespected? (You don't have to list those things here). Women can show disrespect for their H in many ways. The passive nice guy settles for her bad treatment, and some day she's showing him disrespect in front of his kids, his friends, his parents, his boss, strangers......and it gets worse as time goes on. We teach people how to treat us.
If you have questions, please ask.
I have been thinking about starting a thread that gives a Plan of Action for the H of a WW. Maybe I'll work on it tomorrow, will see.
Did you find that page from copied from Peanut on detaching?
Okay, to start explaining boundaries (and I am not an expert), you first have to understand what they are and what they aren't. Think of a personal boundary like an invisible circle around you. This circle is to protect your feelings. Anything that crosses over that line, disrespects you.
You are the one who decides what is offensive/disrespectful to you. This should be based on your standards of values, principles, morals, religious beliefs, integrity, self respect, etc. If something offends you, then there should be a reason it is offensive. In other words, don't just go by whatever you feel that day, b/c emotions can be fickle. When it comes to your boundaries, they should not really change unless your beliefs change to support it. Does that make sense?
You cannot control other people actions. You only control yourself. In a relationship, you can tell the other person their actions are disrespectful toward you. They have the choice of honoring your boundary, or ignoring it. If you can't control anyone but yourself, what happens if your boundary is disrespected after you tell the other person their actions are offensive? You respond with some type of action.
Let's bring it on down to a MR. To clarify by using the word "action", this is not to be interpreted as meaning you respond in any type of violence or abuse. If necessary, take the action to leave.
I believe most WW's have to experience some type of consequences when she shows disrespect to her H. The first time, he can tell her that is disrespectful and he will not tolerate it. The second time it happens, he needs to be ready to respond with some type of action that will result as a consequence for her.......in order to be effective. Of course, he can always walk away or leave the house, but he can't do that for everything or she'll just see him "running away", and interpret it as weakness (depending on the situation). And for nice guys, they have to watch their tendency to be passive-aggressive.
To use an example of a enforcing a boundary, let's say the WW calls her H and is yelling, cursing, and b'tching at him. He tells her he will not tolerate being spoken to over the phone in that disrespectful manner. She ignores him and continues to raise he!!. Does he warn her again? No! What can he do? He hangs up! If she calls again and starts the same stuff, he hangs up and doesn't answer again. No arguing, no negotiation, no more warnings.
That was a simple one, and the bigger the offense, the bigger the consequence should be. Some people might argue that it is punitive. I suppose you will have to make that decision. You are protecting yourself by doing something that clearly gives her the message that you will not be treated in that disrespectful manner. She doesn't have to agree or like it. She doesn't have to do it, but if she ignores your one warning......then there will be some action from you that protects your feelings from her disrespect.
Never say you will not tolerate some behavior, if you can't stand behind your word. In the link on boundaries, I think they use an example of the boundary "I will not stay in an open MR". Some newcomers with a WW in an A thought they would jump right on that one. Well guess what? The A did not stop and the newcomers were trying to back peddle, b/c they were not ready to carrying through with what they said.
What makes you feel disrespected? (You don't have to list those things here). Women can show disrespect for their H in many ways. The passive nice guy settles for her bad treatment, and some day she's showing him disrespect in front of his kids, his friends, his parents, his boss, strangers......and it gets worse as time goes on. We teach people how to treat us.
If you have questions, please ask.
Hi Sandi,
Not sure if you got to read my post replying to a few of your questions a few posts back or not. There were quite a few questions I answered.
In terms of you making a "step by step" plan of action or something like that, would be incredibly helpful I think to not just me but many others.
I did read the detachment post you linked to. I think I have a fairly firm grasp of detachment now. Implementation will be a little challenging for awhile but I need to moving forward.
I have an idea of what my boundaries are but it will be applying the consequences to go along with them that will be challenging. Some are easy as you explained with the phone conversation example you used. For example, to me, her going out with her new "friends" I've never heard of before on a weekday while leaving me with our son and not coming home till around midnight I feel is extremely disrespectful towards me and I view as a boundary crossed for my W, separated or not. I'm just not sure what consequence I could use in this situation? Can I even use a consequence in this situation?
Thanks for your continued help with my situation Sandi, it is so very much appreciated.
I believe I have read all of your posts, but if I have not addressed some of your concerns, you can point it out to me.
Something I want you to grasp about boundaries and consequences........and residing in a separation under the same roof. If you and W are separated, then she can go out wherever she wants and stay as late as she pleases. You are separated! The time to have set it straight was a long time ago. Once you are S, she's pretty much free to do as she pleases, as long as her interactions with you are not disrespectful and she is not harming the child. That is the disadvantage of separation. What's left as a consequence, other than D, b/c you are already S. So, if you aren't prepared to D, I suggest you not try to control it.
However, don't sit up waiting on her to get home! You can lock all the doors, turn out all the lights and go to bed. Don't keep her dinner warm, don't keep a light on, or make her bed all comfy, etc. Act as if it's just you and your child. Do NOT text or call her while she is out! This is very important. Don't check to "see if she's okay", like H's feel they should do. She has fired you as her H, so let her go, and let her get home the best way she can. Stop being available for her. You aren't her man servant or her daddy.
Don't wash her clothes, clean her vehicle and gas it up, clean up her bedroom/bathroom. Treat her like you are separated, instead of a M couple. Don't ask if she is going out, when she'll be home, and if she doesn't tell you she'll definitely be there for dinner......don't fix anything extra for her. Get the picture? Don't contact her at work to see if she's coming home.
Now, if she gets up one morning and has no clean clothes for work and pitches a raging fit at you for not doing her laundry......how will you handle it? B/c you should have a boundary in place to protect your feelings against verbal attacks. It might save a bad scene if you tell her ahead of time that since you are S, there should be some house rules, and you won't be responsible for her clothes, cleaning her bedroom/bathroom, servicing her car, etc. Don't be snarky about it, but I'll say more about house rules in a minute.
If she screams and yells or says disrespectful things (especially in front of your child), you can say: "I will not tolerate being verbally attacked (or however you want to state it)".
Then you walk away and leave her spewing like a mad dog, but don't stand there while she verbally beats you up.
If you are having dinner together at home and she starts causing a scene, get up from the table and leave the house. Leave her with the child and the mess. If in public, take the child with you and leave her to get home the best way she can. You are not going to be verbally attacked.
Does she do anything to disrespect you in front of others?
What else, besides staying out late do you feel is disrespectful?
I think every newcomer H wants to do something that will control his W, and prevent her staying out late, seeing OM, etc. He can set a boundary about it, but what will he do if they are already S? Make sense? I suppose you could tell her you feel disrespected and she'll have to find somewhere else to stay, but if she's paying the bills or her name is on the mortgage.......what then? Can you immediately pick up the bills? What if she takes the baby? IDK, I'm just asking. I don't blame you for not wanting to live under the same roof and knowing she's out doing lord-only-knows-what till all hours of the night. But that's why I am in not in favor of in-house S. As some men have described.......it is soul crushing.
You are limited, but you aren't completely powerless.
I also want you to approach her about splitting evenings to take care of the child. You should have just as many free evenings to be free to GAL as she has. Maybe you and W could set a few house rules while living there as a S couple. Ground rules or house rules are not the same thing as personal boundaries. However, if those were broken, I'd certainly suggest living physically separated.
Some examples of house rules would be.......not bringing new friends over to hang out; not have adults over to spend the night; not having any man to come to the house to pick her up; and things of that nature. Both of you should agree on the house rules...and she'll probably have a few to add, too. These are not be seen as controlling, but to be respectful of the other spouse, since you are sharing the same house.
I hope I have not confused you, bouncing around the way I have. I just know what else to say about boundaries, until you give me something else.
A couple of things I want to mention that nice guys seem to do, and should stop. One is to stop apologizing for every little thing, hoping to make things better with her. Don't apologize for being angry. She wants to end the M and split the family, so it is okay to be angry about it. Just don't lose your temper and do or say something you'll regret.
When she leave to go out, don't look pitiful and try to make her feel guilty. Neither tell her to have a good time. That seems passive-aggressive, IMHO, when it's tearing up your M.
Letting her go means you don't rescue her or clean up the mess she's caused in her life.
Just my suggestion, I think you need to get a job ASAP, and prepare to support yourself. I have not seen successful in-house seperations lead to reconciling. I have seen the H get fed up enough he became the WAH, and it yanked his W around to his terms.
He didn't do it to get his WW back. He seriously became the WAH. She saw he was serious, and she realized she didn't want to lose him and their M. So, last I heard, they were still together. That's what I call dumping her a$$. It has amazing results.
I believe I have read all of your posts, but if I have not addressed some of your concerns, you can point it out to me.
Something I want you to grasp about boundaries and consequences........and residing in a separation under the same roof. If you and W are separated, then she can go out wherever she wants and stay as late as she pleases. You are separated! The time to have set it straight was a long time ago. Once you are S, she's pretty much free to do as she pleases, as long as her interactions with you are not disrespectful and she is not harming the child. That is the disadvantage of separation. What's left as a consequence, other than D, b/c you are already S. So, if you aren't prepared to D, I suggest you not try to control it.
However, don't sit up waiting on her to get home! You can lock all the doors, turn out all the lights and go to bed. Don't keep her dinner warm, don't keep a light on, or make her bed all comfy, etc. Act as if it's just you and your child. Do NOT text or call her while she is out! This is very important. Don't check to "see if she's okay", like H's feel they should do. She has fired you as her H, so let her go, and let her get home the best way she can. Stop being available for her. You aren't her man servant or her daddy.
Don't wash her clothes, clean her vehicle and gas it up, clean up her bedroom/bathroom. Treat her like you are separated, instead of a M couple. Don't ask if she is going out, when she'll be home, and if she doesn't tell you she'll definitely be there for dinner......don't fix anything extra for her. Get the picture? Don't contact her at work to see if she's coming home.
Now, if she gets up one morning and has no clean clothes for work and pitches a raging fit at you for not doing her laundry......how will you handle it? B/c you should have a boundary in place to protect your feelings against verbal attacks. It might save a bad scene if you tell her ahead of time that since you are S, there should be some house rules, and you won't be responsible for her clothes, cleaning her bedroom/bathroom, servicing her car, etc. Don't be snarky about it, but I'll say more about house rules in a minute.
If she screams and yells or says disrespectful things (especially in front of your child), you can say: "I will not tolerate being verbally attacked (or however you want to state it)".
Then you walk away and leave her spewing like a mad dog, but don't stand there while she verbally beats you up.
If you are having dinner together at home and she starts causing a scene, get up from the table and leave the house. Leave her with the child and the mess. If in public, take the child with you and leave her to get home the best way she can. You are not going to be verbally attacked.
Does she do anything to disrespect you in front of others?
What else, besides staying out late do you feel is disrespectful?
I think every newcomer H wants to do something that will control his W, and prevent her staying out late, seeing OM, etc. He can set a boundary about it, but what will he do if they are already S? Make sense? I suppose you could tell her you feel disrespected and she'll have to find somewhere else to stay, but if she's paying the bills or her name is on the mortgage.......what then? Can you immediately pick up the bills? What if she takes the baby? IDK, I'm just asking. I don't blame you for not wanting to live under the same roof and knowing she's out doing lord-only-knows-what till all hours of the night. But that's why I am in not in favor of in-house S. As some men have described.......it is soul crushing.
You are limited, but you aren't completely powerless.
I also want you to approach her about splitting evenings to take care of the child. You should have just as many free evenings to be free to GAL as she has. Maybe you and W could set a few house rules while living there as a S couple. Ground rules or house rules are not the same thing as personal boundaries. However, if those were broken, I'd certainly suggest living physically separated.
Some examples of house rules would be.......not bringing new friends over to hang out; not have adults over to spend the night; not having any man to come to the house to pick her up; and things of that nature. Both of you should agree on the house rules...and she'll probably have a few to add, too. These are not be seen as controlling, but to be respectful of the other spouse, since you are sharing the same house.
I hope I have not confused you, bouncing around the way I have. I just know what else to say about boundaries, until you give me something else.
A couple of things I want to mention that nice guys seem to do, and should stop. One is to stop apologizing for every little thing, hoping to make things better with her. Don't apologize for being angry. She wants to end the M and split the family, so it is okay to be angry about it. Just don't lose your temper and do or say something you'll regret.
When she leave to go out, don't look pitiful and try to make her feel guilty. Neither tell her to have a good time. That seems passive-aggressive, IMHO, when it's tearing up your M.
Letting her go means you don't rescue her or clean up the mess she's caused in her life.
Just my suggestion, I think you need to get a job ASAP, and prepare to support yourself. I have not seen successful in-house seperations lead to reconciling. I have seen the H get fed up enough he became the WAH, and it yanked his W around to his terms.
He didn't do it to get his WW back. He seriously became the WAH. She saw he was serious, and she realized she didn't want to lose him and their M. So, last I heard, they were still together. That's what I call dumping her a$$. It has amazing results.
Hi Sandi,
I think I'm starting to grasp the concept of boundaries better now. I'm realizing that I can't really enforce things like her going out now that we're S.
In terms of living together S, it is hell. I can definitely attest to that. She is just an aura of negativity and selfishness right now. I feel horrible around her. Even her family is just appaled at the new "her". They don't recognize her either.
I'm feeling more confident in my position of handling things on my own, I've been planning for her leaving as I don't want to be around the person she has become. I'm fairly sure she will leave if asked or demanded. I doubt she would take our son, she's not good with him to be honest and would be a drag on her. The plan would be split parenting according to her anyways.
Honestly, the more I think about it, her leaving is possibly the best way for her to wake up to what she is doing. She has no idea how hard it is to deal with our son full time or what I do for her on a daily basis or how much I actually handle with her business. She would never see me asking her to leave, I guarantee she thinks I'm hanging on. For her to deal with all of this on her own will be eye opening in my opinion.
Even in terms of the actual D if it comes to it will not go as she has planned. She has way more to lose than I do. This whole situation will not go as she has planned. She already had doses of it with things like getting a mortgage for herself, new vehicle, etc.
At this point I can't be afraid of actual separation. I think it's what she needs tbh. I really want to tell her I'm done with her [censored] and her disrespect and that I'm moving on.
Your thoughts?
I believe I have read all of your posts, but if I have not addressed some of your concerns, you can point it out to me.
Something I want you to grasp about boundaries and consequences........and residing in a separation under the same roof. If you and W are separated, then she can go out wherever she wants and stay as late as she pleases. You are separated! The time to have set it straight was a long time ago. Once you are S, she's pretty much free to do as she pleases, as long as her interactions with you are not disrespectful and she is not harming the child. That is the disadvantage of separation. What's left as a consequence, other than D, b/c you are already S. So, if you aren't prepared to D, I suggest you not try to control it.
However, don't sit up waiting on her to get home! You can lock all the doors, turn out all the lights and go to bed. Don't keep her dinner warm, don't keep a light on, or make her bed all comfy, etc. Act as if it's just you and your child. Do NOT text or call her while she is out! This is very important. Don't check to "see if she's okay", like H's feel they should do. She has fired you as her H, so let her go, and let her get home the best way she can. Stop being available for her. You aren't her man servant or her daddy.
Don't wash her clothes, clean her vehicle and gas it up, clean up her bedroom/bathroom. Treat her like you are separated, instead of a M couple. Don't ask if she is going out, when she'll be home, and if she doesn't tell you she'll definitely be there for dinner......don't fix anything extra for her. Get the picture? Don't contact her at work to see if she's coming home.
Now, if she gets up one morning and has no clean clothes for work and pitches a raging fit at you for not doing her laundry......how will you handle it? B/c you should have a boundary in place to protect your feelings against verbal attacks. It might save a bad scene if you tell her ahead of time that since you are S, there should be some house rules, and you won't be responsible for her clothes, cleaning her bedroom/bathroom, servicing her car, etc. Don't be snarky about it, but I'll say more about house rules in a minute.
If she screams and yells or says disrespectful things (especially in front of your child), you can say: "I will not tolerate being verbally attacked (or however you want to state it)".
Then you walk away and leave her spewing like a mad dog, but don't stand there while she verbally beats you up.
If you are having dinner together at home and she starts causing a scene, get up from the table and leave the house. Leave her with the child and the mess. If in public, take the child with you and leave her to get home the best way she can. You are not going to be verbally attacked.
Does she do anything to disrespect you in front of others?
What else, besides staying out late do you feel is disrespectful?
I think every newcomer H wants to do something that will control his W, and prevent her staying out late, seeing OM, etc. He can set a boundary about it, but what will he do if they are already S? Make sense? I suppose you could tell her you feel disrespected and she'll have to find somewhere else to stay, but if she's paying the bills or her name is on the mortgage.......what then? Can you immediately pick up the bills? What if she takes the baby? IDK, I'm just asking. I don't blame you for not wanting to live under the same roof and knowing she's out doing lord-only-knows-what till all hours of the night. But that's why I am in not in favor of in-house S. As some men have described.......it is soul crushing.
You are limited, but you aren't completely powerless.
I also want you to approach her about splitting evenings to take care of the child. You should have just as many free evenings to be free to GAL as she has. Maybe you and W could set a few house rules while living there as a S couple. Ground rules or house rules are not the same thing as personal boundaries. However, if those were broken, I'd certainly suggest living physically separated.
Some examples of house rules would be.......not bringing new friends over to hang out; not have adults over to spend the night; not having any man to come to the house to pick her up; and things of that nature. Both of you should agree on the house rules...and she'll probably have a few to add, too. These are not be seen as controlling, but to be respectful of the other spouse, since you are sharing the same house.
I hope I have not confused you, bouncing around the way I have. I just know what else to say about boundaries, until you give me something else.
A couple of things I want to mention that nice guys seem to do, and should stop. One is to stop apologizing for every little thing, hoping to make things better with her. Don't apologize for being angry. She wants to end the M and split the family, so it is okay to be angry about it. Just don't lose your temper and do or say something you'll regret.
When she leave to go out, don't look pitiful and try to make her feel guilty. Neither tell her to have a good time. That seems passive-aggressive, IMHO, when it's tearing up your M.
Letting her go means you don't rescue her or clean up the mess she's caused in her life.
Just my suggestion, I think you need to get a job ASAP, and prepare to support yourself. I have not seen successful in-house seperations lead to reconciling. I have seen the H get fed up enough he became the WAH, and it yanked his W around to his terms.
He didn't do it to get his WW back. He seriously became the WAH. She saw he was serious, and she realized she didn't want to lose him and their M. So, last I heard, they were still together. That's what I call dumping her a$$. It has amazing results.
Hi Sandi,
I think I'm starting to grasp the concept of boundaries better now. I'm realizing that I can't really enforce things like her going out now that we're S.
In terms of living together S, it is hell. I can definitely attest to that. She is just an aura of negativity and selfishness right now. I feel horrible around her. Even her family is just appaled at the new "her". They don't recognize her either.
I'm feeling more confident in my position of handling things on my own, I've been planning for her leaving as I don't want to be around the person she has become. I'm fairly sure she will leave if asked or demanded. I doubt she would take our son, she's not good with him to be honest and would be a drag on her. The plan would be split parenting according to her anyways.
Honestly, the more I think about it, her leaving is possibly the best way for her to wake up to what she is doing. She has no idea how hard it is to deal with our son full time or what I do for her on a daily basis or how much I actually handle with her business. She would never see me asking her to leave, I guarantee she thinks I'm hanging on. For her to deal with all of this on her own will be eye opening in my opinion.
Even in terms of the actual D if it comes to it will not go as she has planned. She has way more to lose than I do. This whole situation will not go as she has planned. She already had doses of it with things like getting a mortgage for herself, new vehicle, etc.
At this point I can't be afraid of actual separation. I think it's what she needs tbh. I really want to tell her I'm done with her [censored] and her disrespect and that I'm moving on.
Your thoughts?
Just a little bump for my last post here. Need to know if this is my best course of action or not. I would like to think that DB detachment could work while living together S but I'm not so sure. If the only way for her to truly snap out of this fantasy she is in is for her to feel the reality of what she is actually doing, I think she needs to leave in my opinion. I just don't want to pull the trigger on this plan and figure out later I should have done something else or waited.
Thanks!
I would imagine that it would be WAY harder to detach while sharing a house. Distance has helped me somewhat and it is still the hardest thing ever.
That said, I wouldnt push her to leave unless you feel like you need to for your own sanity or because she is abusive in some way. I have seen my W only 3 times in 6 weeks since BD and wont see her again for at least 2 months. I have made great strides, and it would be cool for her to be able to see them.
Just my 2 cents.
I have seen the H get fed up enough he became the WAH, and it yanked his W around to his terms.
He didn't do it to get his WW back. He seriously became the WAH. She saw he was serious, and she realized she didn't want to lose him and their M. So, last I heard, they were still together. That's what I call dumping her a$$. It has amazing results.
^^^Yup. My sitch.
Hmmmmmm... To Sandi2 you listen, yes? Jedi mind tricks work not on a WW. Experience loss, they must.
So I've been thinking, does a person having a predisposition to mental illness (ie: moderate to severe depression) make the mental shift to being wayward more easily? I ask because my W has always been really affected by depression from before I even knew her. She's also had severe postpartum depression to which I do not think she's ever recovered completely? I'm just wondering if a connection has ever been able to be made?
Is there a history of mental illness in her family? I apologize if you've mentioned this, but did her OB/GYN prescribe meds for her postpartum depression?
It seems the
majority of cases (on the board) about a WW........did mention they
were experiencing depression on some level. I mean, they
are unhappy in the the MR, which affects pretty much everything else. So, JIMHO, it would certainly make sense. It sure doesn't
help the situation any. There have been several newcomers to ask similar questions.
Waywardness is not a disease or something forced on a person, but if they are already dealing with a mental health issue.......then it could make the situation more complexed. When suffering with additional issues, it could slow the recovery, reconciliation or piecing time. In some cases, it may require a change in medication or therapy, before the woman would feel ready to emotionally invest in the MR.
Look, if you don't want to ask her to leave, don't do it. That is a decision only you can make. Don't just look for an action to cause a reaction in her. Do what is best for you and the child. Look at it from that point of view.
These types of situations usually get worse before they get better. It may take lots of reality to shake her fantasy, or it may take a long time. If you aren't sure about an affair, then you may want to wait until you know for certain. The other day you started a post by saying she was definitely having an A, then came back and said you had misunderstood what you saw.
A lot of information is thrown at the newcomer. Take time to digest it before you jump off into something you are not prepared to face. So, don't ask her to leave, at the moment, b/c I'm concerned you are acting out of your emotions.
Bewas, for me the biggest thing is not picking up after WW, fixing her messes, offering advice, or really even looking at her.
I just do my thing. Remember to look and be happy, like you just got laid. Text people, have fun. She'll hate that, and her curiosity will be piqued.
I have posted in a few threads, but meetup.Com is a good spot to go for GAL activities.
So I've been thinking, does a person having a predisposition to mental illness (ie: moderate to severe depression) make the mental shift to being wayward more easily? I ask because my W has always been really affected by depression from before I even knew her. She's also had severe postpartum depression to which I do not think she's ever recovered completely? I'm just wondering if a connection has ever been able to be made?
Is there a history of mental illness in her family? I apologize if you've mentioned this, but did her OB/GYN prescribe meds for her postpartum depression?
It seems the
majority of cases (on the board) about a WW........did mention they
were experiencing depression on some level. I mean, they
are unhappy in the the MR, which affects pretty much everything else. So, JIMHO, it would certainly make sense. It sure doesn't
help the situation any. There have been several newcomers to ask similar questions.
Waywardness is not a disease or something forced on a person, but if they are already dealing with a mental health issue.......then it could make the situation more complexed. When suffering with additional issues, it could slow the recovery, reconciliation or piecing time. In some cases, it may require a change in medication or therapy, before the woman would feel ready to emotionally invest in the MR.
Look, if you don't want to ask her to leave, don't do it. That is a decision only you can make. Don't just look for an action to cause a reaction in her. Do what is best for you and the child. Look at it from that point of view.
These types of situations usually get worse before they get better. It may take lots of reality to shake her fantasy, or it may take a long time. If you aren't sure about an affair, then you may want to wait until you know for certain. The other day you started a post by saying she was definitely having an A, then came back and said you had misunderstood what you saw.
A lot of information is thrown at the newcomer. Take time to digest it before you jump off into something you are not prepared to face. So, don't ask her to leave, at the moment, b/c I'm concerned you are acting out of your emotions.
Hi Sandi,
Yes, there is definitely a history or depression with her going back before I even knew her apparently. Then it was made worse by the fact that she lost a LOT of blood during the birth of our son. That coupled with the extreme postpartum depression she experienced cause her a huge amount of anxiety and fear of death for a long time. Looking back now with clearer vision, I truly think she never did get over it and it's still very much there. She did not want to take any medication and has never been on any as she was scared they would make her feel emotionless. I'm also seeing that I don't think she's been the same person ever since then even after I figured she "recovered". I think it is definitely playing a part in this waywardness and out of character behavior. It just took some trigger to fully cause this transformation. It's been suggested to her by friends and family to see a doctor about the depression but she refuses as she thinks she is "fine".
I at this point do not believe there is an A or OM but every other aspect of what she is doing is fitting the WW to a T. The selfishness, narcissism and rash behavior is unreal at times. There still could be of course an OM but I haven't seen any proof. She has added a shape code to unlock her phone though all of the sudden. I've seen her use it from afar and know what it is but I haven't had a chance to check it. Haven't actually even been as curious lately...maybe that's the detachment setting in?
We had a pretty good row again yesterday. It seems she's getting the cold shoulder by her family now and of course is blaming me for it even though they are doing it on their own as they don't like what she's becoming. They see it for themselves and do not approve of breaking up our amazing little family for no good reason without even trying. Her reasons aren't really reasons to them as most normal people would work their problems out or at least try to. I can tell her till I'm blue in the face that it's their own decision and that it's basically her doing this to herself but it falls on deaf ears. I'm blamed for basically everything anyways at this point. I do however believe that this has really shook her...whether or not to my benefit is to be seen.
I asked her to leave yesterday morning during the fight as I can't take her anymore like this. It's just too difficult. I told her I couldn't kick her out, just that it would be best if she left considering that's what she has wanted since this started. I've got a pretty good plan in place for myself now so it won't be too bad on my own. She said I need to give her time to find a place and that she would go. I said fine. She later that day said that she has a friend willing to let her stay and that she was going to leave that night. It didn't happen. She came home late and said nothing of it. So at this point, I really have no clue what she is going to do in regards to moving out.
I saw your post about maybe waiting to ask her to leave, but later the same day after it was already done. Honestly, I'm feeling much more hardened the last few days. A lot less emotional lately as well. I'm just naturally feeling more detachment right now as well. Almost a month of being treated like dirt will do that to a person I guess.
I guess we will see how this all plays out over the next days/weeks.
Thanks!
Bewas, for me the biggest thing is not picking up after WW, fixing her messes, offering advice, or really even looking at her.
I just do my thing. Remember to look and be happy, like you just got laid. Text people, have fun. She'll hate that, and her curiosity will be piqued.
I have posted in a few threads, but meetup.Com is a good spot to go for GAL activities.
Yea, her curiosity seems definitely piqued when she doesn't know what I'm up to. I took our truck this weekend and said I was gone till Sunday or Monday and I could tell it bothered the hell out of her that she didn't know what I was doing. She kept bringing it up hoping I would tell her but I stood my ground. Felt good tbh.
I'm definitely considering meetup.com at some point if this continued with her for too long. Would be nice to meet some new friends for sure and would help with GAL.
Well, it was her birthday yesterday and I made sure to not even give it a thought and said nothing to her. She ended up going to a friends house for cake and got a ton of FB birthday wishes but came home in a pretty foul mood. Didn't say much to me but I could tell she wasn't happy. She pestered me a little bit about bill splitting going forward but other than that not much was said. One thing that was slightly odd was this was the first time she didn't seem to care me seeing her naked since this started...she came right out to me without anything on, though still seemingly angry. Since this started she had always tried to not let me see her naked anymore. Just seemed odd.
I've noticed that due to our shared google account, she's barely been sleeping. At all different times of the night there's app usage and it's all over the place. It's been this way for a bit now. I'm wondering if something is bothering her? Maybe it's something to do with whatever she is going through right now causing that? She's going to absolutely burn herself out and crash hard at some point if she keeps this up.
Today she went and bought herself a brand new truck. I don't really care as it's her own money moving forward. I suppose she will need transport as I'm the one getting the truck we already had. I still think she will be overspending herself as I don't think she has very good self control considering I was the one seeing what she was spending all the time and trying to rein her in.
I have yet to hear anything more about the supposed friend she was supposed to be moving in with...have no idea what's going to happen with this. Hasn't packed or said a word about it since. Hasn't said anything about lawyers either.
I'm planning on maybe going to some family for a couple days, even into the weekend possibly just to get away for a bit. She's going out with friends for drinks again tonight apparently from what I've been able to piece together and I just don't really even want to be around for when she gets home. I just simply don't want to be around the person she has become to me. It's sad as she is absolutely beautiful to look at and still "looks" like my W, but as soon as she opens her mouth or looks at me, it's evident that this isn't my W, just a an evil doppelganger of her.
I think I'll be starting a temporary job next week while I look for something in my actual field. Her parents are going to look after the little guy while I'm working as it will be in the same city they are in. I won't have to pay day care which is nice. I won't have to worry about that portion of this situation for now at least.
My situation is absolutely in Limbo territory right now. Things have seemingly gotten worse over the last week though but as I've heard, these situations almost always get much worse before they get better. I guess time will tell.
Well I'm now almost positive of at least an EA with my W. She's as of last weekend or earlier now using a shape pin on her phone even though she had none before. She had swore in the past that she didn't have anything to hide. I however, didn't realize that I had access to her photo galleries through my google photo accounts. I got a prompt on my phone to look at "today's photo animation". I clicked on it and it took me to animation of her posing on her brand new truck in provocative positions. That wasn't necessarily the problem though. I clicked on the photo tab and was absolutely disgusted with what I saw.
As I scrolled through the photos, I began to see multiple times of her posting in extremely skimpy lengerie and completely nude photos. The times just after these photos were taken, she was on snapchat a minute or so after taking the photo according to my google activity timeline. Why else would she be on snapchat nude other than to snap them to someone?
I feel I need to confront her about it. She needs to know that I know. Especially as she is obviously hiding it from me and doesn't want me to know. I know a few of you on here have said that they need to be made aware that you know asap.
How should I handle this? I don't want this to get any worse. I mean at least this way, even if she does continue, she'll know that I know. She thinks she's been awfully careful. She's obviously hiding it for a reason even though we are separated though still living together.
Help!
Bewas,
I would wait for some Vets to weigh in also, but to my mind, that is WAY more than enough to confront about an EA. With Nudes sent i would even go so far as to call that a PA, and who knows if it has gotten to that point.
Its time for Alpha Bewas.
Re-Read Sandi's Rules, SEVERAL times.
Dont share the bed, Detach, Go dark, Make it VERY clear you will not share a sexual partner or be a cuck.
This may feel unnatural. I wish i had followed this advice, or known about it when i found out about my WW's affair.
It seems to be a general issue with Women in our age group, exp. around the big 30.
Its deplorable. Dont stand for it.
She may leave, say she wants space (to continue Affair...),
Act cool, act as if you dont care, let her spin down the path of the WW.
Keep us updated, best of luck man.
Check my sitch for a laundry list of what NOT TO DO.
Be stronger than i was, dont beg, dont plead, Drop the Nice Guy BS, and be Alpha.
How should I confront her about this though??
I'm not sure how to go about this properly.
Do I just act like it's not a big deal even though it is? I know you said to act cool but I don't know, that will be hard. I know we are technically separated but it's barely been a month since it started. I just feel like she needs to know I know. I just need to know how to go about it exactly. I just feel it's going to get heated...
Well I'm now almost positive of at least an EA with my W. She's as of last weekend or earlier now using a shape pin on her phone even though she had none before. She had swore in the past that she didn't have anything to hide. I however, didn't realize that I had access to her photo galleries through my google photo accounts. I got a prompt on my phone to look at "today's photo animation". I clicked on it and it took me to animation of her posing on her brand new truck in provocative positions. That wasn't necessarily the problem though. I clicked on the photo tab and was absolutely disgusted with what I saw.
As I scrolled through the photos, I began to see multiple times of her posting in extremely skimpy lengerie and completely nude photos. The times just after these photos were taken, she was on snapchat a minute or so after taking the photo according to my google activity timeline. Why else would she be on snapchat nude other than to snap them to someone?
I feel I need to confront her about it. She needs to know that I know. Especially as she is obviously hiding it from me and doesn't want me to know. I know a few of you on here have said that they need to be made aware that you know asap.
How should I handle this? I don't want this to get any worse. I mean at least this way, even if she does continue, she'll know that I know. She thinks she's been awfully careful. She's obviously hiding it for a reason even though we are separated though still living together.
Help!
Any other suggestions on how to handle confronting my W?
How are YOU doing? what are YOU doing to improve?
Start working on some heavy self analysis. Its so necessary.
Make a list of goals, what you want in life. What you want in a partner, things you need to improve on, things you need to start doing or start doing again.
How will you GAL?
What 180's shall you aim for?
What VALUE do you have?
What FLAWS do you have?
How did you contribute to downfall of MR?
What did you do right that you wouldnt change?
Ask the hard questions, i didn't early on and paid for it.
Do you want someone who will betray your trust?
Do you want someone who doesn't want you?
Do you want to torture yourself everyday while the person you are suffering for walks all over you?
If your BEST FRIEND was going through what you are, what advice would you give them?
I go back to what I have originally said. You are already separated, so what benefit is there in confronting her about photos, snap chat, etc.? If she says it is none of your business, then what is your next step?
Clipped from Sandi's Rules.
12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
Well I'm now almost positive of at least an EA with my W. She's as of last weekend or earlier now using a shape pin on her phone even though she had none before. She had swore in the past that she didn't have anything to hide. I however, didn't realize that I had access to her photo galleries through my google photo accounts. I got a prompt on my phone to look at "today's photo animation". I clicked on it and it took me to animation of her posing on her brand new truck in provocative positions. That wasn't necessarily the problem though. I clicked on the photo tab and was absolutely disgusted with what I saw.
As I scrolled through the photos, I began to see multiple times of her posting in extremely skimpy lengerie and completely nude photos. The times just after these photos were taken, she was on snapchat a minute or so after taking the photo according to my google activity timeline. Why else would she be on snapchat nude other than to snap them to someone?
I feel I need to confront her about it. She needs to know that I know. Especially as she is obviously hiding it from me and doesn't want me to know. I know a few of you on here have said that they need to be made aware that you know asap.
How should I handle this? I don't want this to get any worse. I mean at least this way, even if she does continue, she'll know that I know. She thinks she's been awfully careful. She's obviously hiding it for a reason even though we are separated though still living together.
Help!
Just another bump on this. Can anyone else weigh in on what I should do?
I go back to what I have originally said. You are already separated, so what benefit is there in confronting her about photos, snap chat, etc.? If she says it is none of your business, then what is your next step?
Well, at this point I have to move on. I kind of just want to let her know that I know what she's been doing even though she swore up and down she wasn't. At least she would know I caught her in a lie. She has obviously been hiding it from me for a reason. So my next step is to actually just move on I guess regardless. Thoughts?
Bewas,
Rather than wait for instruction, did you look at the self reflection post i did?
Secondly, people have replied to that.
What about what Sandi just said?
You need to do work on your end, you cant just blindly ask for and follow direction here. This is a place for advice, but you must ultimately do the work and make the decisions.
Take some time, Center yourself. you are spinning out.
Answers will come to you.
Your WW left, she is separated, Sandi brings up an interesting point about not confronting her about this,
Follow the 37 rules, detach, go dark, GAL.
these rules are what they are for a reason.
Clipped from Sandi's Rules.
12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
I've definitely been following the looking the best I can. I look the best I've probably ever looked. Exercise and eating really good have helped immensely.
My plan was to just basically confront her about the fact I know. That until this point I actually thought the woman I married was still there but now I know she isn't. Then basically tell her I'm done dealing with her apart from separation stuff and or child stuff and I'm moving on regardless of what she does.
I'm not going to be around much anyways as I'll be living somewhere else during the week moving forward. Whether she moves out or not.
Bewas, I am a confronting fan myself. I confronted in my sitch. My only advice is that you NEVER let her know how you know. Just that you know.
WWs are notorious for going deeper undercover when you confront and especially if you reveal how you know. That was my mistake, and she slowly shut down any access I had. So if you confront DO NOT TELL HER HOW YOU KNOW.
Also you are at 11 pages, time to start a new thread.
Bewas,
Rather than wait for instruction, did you look at the self reflection post i did?
Secondly, people have replied to that.
What about what Sandi just said?
You need to do work on your end, you cant just blindly ask for and follow direction here. This is a place for advice, but you must ultimately do the work and make the decisions.
Take some time, Center yourself. you are spinning out.
Answers will come to you.
Your WW left, she is separated, Sandi brings up an interesting point about not confronting her about this,
Follow the 37 rules, detach, go dark, GAL.
these rules are what they are for a reason.
I realize it seems like I'm asking for a step by step instruction on how to handle this but it was just above in seeking. I appreciate every bit of it.
I know I need to work on myself and I have been. I've actually been pretty good at the rules lately. I just know that a few posters in my thread have told me they are huge proponents of confronting affairs as soon as you know. Seperated or not, we are only a month in to this and still married. I still consider it cheating. I know it won't stop anything but at least she would know that I'm done with her myself moving forward regardless of what she does. Maybe she would realize she isn't as smart as she thinks she is. Don't really plan on doing anything after this other than gal and moving on. It's all I can do.