Since my W wouldn't confirm whether or not I was keeping our S this weekend, I called the sitter. She left him there and said that I was picking him up.
I agreed to keep him this weekend to calm her down a week ago. But she wouldn't address it.
Two weeks ago she had him. Last week should have been mine, but that's when she told her dad he could keep him...so then she switched again. Now it's my weekend. Which means SHE gets him on Father's Day weekend...
I'm really tempted to call her and be a jerk about this. But no. That's a bad idea.
Just venting.
I would tell her no matter who has him this weekend, you want him again next weekend for Father's Day.
MOre than likely she'll be supportive. I am guessing, as most WWs, she is willing to be free of her parenting duties as often as possible.
Maybe I should. Because on "her" weekend, he's always with her mom or dad because she has to work. She got her schedule moved to daytime during the week (except the 2 or 3 days off during the week), but she still wants to work closing shift on weekends (like 5 pm - 3 am).
She did get a regular job once. Lasted about 3 months before she gave it up and went back to working her pizza job.
She essentially gets EVERY weekend off.
I bought a notebook last week to start keeping track of my visits with my S and also information relevant to him. I noticed that when I picked him up from the sitter yesterday, he was wearing the same outfit that he was in Thursday when I took him to the doctor.
I know she worked Thursday, but she worked during the day.
I hope she's really thinking about stuff...but I know she's only thinking of herself.
It's not the first time it's happened, either. But now that I have a notebook, I'm going to be keeping a much closer eye on things.
She's really being dumb.
Our S keeps asking me why I'm sad. I may be able to keep my composure in front of her most of the time...but around just him, I can't do it.
I miss having my family together. It is really, really hard to deal with the fact that she is just...gone. And he knows I'm sad.
He brought me his blanket and gave me a hug. He's the sweetest little boy ever.
But other than my weekends with him, I'm pretty much isolated from anyone I really care about. And that [censored], because I know that tomorrow night, she will pick him up, and I'll be alone again.
He keeps asking why I'm sad. He's not even 4 yet. I just tell him that I miss him and mommy living with me. I can't explain any of this to him...or at least I don't know how.
She spent so much energy telling me to fix myself and I couldn't at the time. Now I'm working hard to make improvements, do DB, and I'm really not seeing anything helping the situation.
I really don't want to lose her forever. I don't want to lose my family.
I know they're gone, but I really, really don't want it to be forever.
I feel like it's going to be though.
Sorry. I'm just having a really bad day today. I need a freaking miracle.
You need to find a church, stat. And also find a men's group to join. You need to be around other dudes and get your masculinity back.
If you are completely opposed to finding a church (I know a lot are nowadays) then at least find a men's group to join.
I have plenty of masculinity. What I have is depression right now.
I'll be fine later, but right now, I'm just kind of feeling lost. I promise I'm okay.
You missed what I'm saying. you have been a husband and father for so long that it has become your identity. You need to get out and meet new friends and become more than the just a H and father.
But it's up to you. This is just advice. peace bro.
I guess I did. I'm sorry.
I know you're right. I guess I get really lost in how I'm feeling at the time, and I tend to feel too strongly at times.
Today I've just been feeling kind of hopeless. I lost my W and my job within about 3 months, and I often feel like I'm expected (by her and everyone) to just let her go.
I know that's what I have to do, whether I'm DBing or not. It's easy to confuse the two sometimes.
I have well-meaning friends telling me things like "you deserve better", "she doesn't deserve you", "you don't need her back"...and honestly that really bothers me.
Whether it's true or not. It still bothers me because I am trying to fix this on my own.
I really do need more to do. This weekend I have our S. I think it's hard because it's a reminder that things could be fixable, and for his sake it's worth it. I really just wish she felt the same way.
I dunno. She's definitely a WW. No question. I guess I'm hoping for something to change.
Well, W just stopped by to pick up our S. So I put on my DB face. I was polite, upbeat, all of the things. She looked really sad...she has this look that she gets when she's done something (or rather, someone) that is kind of a guilty/sad look.
I asked "how was your weekend?" and she said "I worked a lot".
"Oh, I hear ya. You look sad, are you ok?"
"I just really want to leave."
"Oh, I understand. I'll get his things, and I'll get out of your way."
So that's exactly what I did. I got our S things, helped him buckle up, then told him goodbye.
I gave a friendly wave as they left. She gave a tiny, halfhearted wave back.
I know. I can read her face really well. Something is bothering her that isn't exactly me, and I know she's avoiding me most likely because of it.
Whatever it is, part of me hopes she's feeling guilty. Maybe that's not the right way to be, but she knows that I can see it in her face. Which might explain her body language. Arms crossed really tightly, wanting to avoid a conversation, can't really look at me directly in the eyes.
I hope it's eating her up. Either way, I'm doing the DB thing, and I WILL save my marriage.
I just hope she figures out quickly that the depression she has isn't because of me anymore...it's because of her own choices and issues.
Maybe she'll open up one day. Today wasn't the day, and I'm not going to press the issue with her.
Only mistakes were the questions. You'll learn not to do that but otherwise that was perfect.
I think I'm starting to understand the concept.
Basically, detaching, doing the GAL...you make yourself happy.
Meanwhile, the WW still isn't happy, but you are, and so she can't blame you and HAS to, at some point, take ownership of her own issues...because you aren't there to cause her more problems...or the problems she had before are STILL there...so she can't blame you for them at all.
I'm thinking this is part of the psychological aspect of DB...I have this thing where if I understand things, I perform better. Am I on the right track with this line of thinking?
That is definitely a part of it. But do not underestimate the ability of a WW not to see that her problems are bigger than her ex. She may NEVER come to that realization. It can help her see it, but many do not.
The key is this: you make yourself happy.
Once you do that, it doesn't matter what she does or doesn't realize.
That does make sense.
She's definitely the type to dwell on things, stay angry, and justify them to herself...but then, she's also intelligent. She knows which of her issues aren't because of me. She's even told me that she knows that the hurt that she attributed to me wasn't intentional, and she knows I wouldn't have ever done anything to cause her to hurt.
So at least she knows that.
So now, I'm focused on myself. And hoping that she realizes that she's still (very obviously) hurting about something. She has a conscience, although it seems to malfunction from time to time. I've seen that in the past.
So...here's hoping this is going well.
When she dropped our S off at the sitter's place today, I was looking out the window. Not at her specifically, just happened to be at the window. I saw her look up at the window. I don't know whether she saw me or not. She probably did. Heh. Ah well.
I'm going to try to find an excuse not to be home when she comes back to pick him up. I'm going to keep trying to be scarce. I don't really have much to do, but who knows. Maybe I'll find something to stay busy with.
If S3 is often asking you why you are sad, then you may need to try harder to put on your happy face around him. If he sees you smiling and uplifted when Mommy comes to take him home, yet you are sad when he's around, he could misunderstand and think he is the problem. It is really tough to put on a happy face for our kids when our heart is breaking, but we can be our strongest and best selfs for them.
This may sound anti-DBing to your ears, but I think you need to stop focusing on how to fix the situation with your W. Stop thinking about what might be troubling her, or if she looks sad, etc. Turn your attention on self healing, rather than
relationship healing. Even if she came back today, you would mess it up b/c you have not healed enough to deal with it. You are still reacting out of your pain. You are in no condition to fix the relationship, until you have time to heal yourself. Do you understand what I mean? You are putting all your thoughts, time, energy, feelings, and attention into her. When you stop doing that, and you start putting everything into your own healing and growth........then your life is going to shift from this pit you are in currently.
As a former WW, I can tell you that everything you say to her is emotional pressure. Just your physical presence is emotional pressure on her. Not in the way you might hope.......like making her feel guilty for what she's done......and even then, it makes her want to get away from you as fast as possible, or avoid you altogether. Asking her about her weekend is not appropriate. Making references to her facial expressions and asking if she wants to talk is not appropriate at this time. I realize these things are difficult to accept, but they work against you......not
for you. ((hugs))
If S3 is often asking you why you are sad, then you may need to try harder to put on your happy face around him. If he sees you smiling and uplifted when Mommy comes to take him home, yet you are sad when he's around, he could misunderstand and think he is the problem. It is really tough to put on a happy face for our kids when our heart is breaking, but we can be our strongest and best selfs for them.
2nd this. I had been letting my moods show around my S3 far too much and his attitude and temperament definitely reflected that.
Lately he has been asking in a cheerful voice "Dada, are you HAPPY?!"
and i can honestly and gleefully tell him "Yes Dada IS happy"
it is amazing how much mirroring they do.
Having S3 angry and throwing tantrums all the time, when i was already stressed and mentally exhausted was really hard. Its amazing how if you let up on yourself you see positive changes in them.
Good Luck Black
Thank y'all.
I do try to be positive with S3, in fact Sunday we pretty much spent the whole day being happy, playing, chasing each other around the house (apparently I'm the spider king...lol). But Saturday was rough.
Just your physical presence is emotional pressure on her. Not in the way you might hope.......like making her feel guilty for what she's done......and even then, it makes her want to get away from you as fast as possible, or avoid you altogether.
This kind of resonates with me. Today S3 was at the sitter's house (which is basically downstairs), and W had to work late...so she asked her friends to pick him up. Not me. Now, they live farther away than necessary...she could have literally asked me to just go get him...but she's willing to inconvenience herself just to avoid being anywhere near me. The funny thing is tonight she was working about 4 blocks from my place, so it would have 1) given me more time with S3 and 2) been a lot easier on her when she gets off of work later (assuming she actually does work as late as she told the sitter).
Oh well.
Also, I found out that she is doing a cash side job...AFTER telling the court that she couldn't afford court fees. It's the same one she used to do (but used to get paid legit) working with the people who have been slandering me. Ugh.
So...she seems to be kind of almost trying to get in over her head with all of this...? I dunno. It's weird.
I do try to be positive with S3, in fact Sunday we pretty much spent the whole day being happy, playing, chasing each other around the house (apparently I'm the spider king...lol). But Saturday was rough.
This is great! One of the LBH's who use to be on the board, told us that whenever he felt his happy face slipping, he would go into the bathroom and bury his face in a stack of towels until he cried it out. Then, he would compose himself and go out for the next round.
When I use the expression "happy face", I don't mean you have to walk around with a fake smile plastered from ear to ear. Just try to be self aware and not look like you've lost your last friend. That's what others pick up is the sad expressions.
Today S3 was at the sitter's house (which is basically downstairs), and W had to work late...so she asked her friends to pick him up. Not me. Now, they live farther away than necessary...she could have literally asked me to just go get him...but she's willing to inconvenience herself just to avoid being anywhere near me. The funny thing is tonight she was working about 4 blocks from my place, so it would have 1) given me more time with S3 and 2) been a lot easier on her when she gets off of work later (assuming she actually does work as late as she told the sitter).
Okay, so how did you know about all of this ^^^^^^^? If it was her turn, or whatever, to pick up S3, doesn't she have the prerogative to ask her friends to get him? I understand every move she makes is irritation for you, but you must let go of these smaller issues. Unless it is written in the custody agreement, or whatever, that she gives you the first option of picking up/keeping S3 when she can't.......then there isn't much you can do about it. Although I empathize, you have to accept that there will times she'll go out of her way to avoid involving you in the least way. It doesn't make sense to
you, but she has her reasons. Could be that she just did not want another face to face, since the last time, IDK.
Also, I found out that she is doing a cash side job...AFTER telling the court that she couldn't afford court fees. It's the same one she used to do (but used to get paid legit) working with the people who have been slandering me. Ugh.
So...she seems to be kind of almost trying to get in over her head with all of this...? I dunno. It's weird.
How are finding out so much about her business? Tell you what, I want to offer you a challenge. I challenge you to go for the next 7 days that you don't go to whatever source you are currently using to acquire all of this information about your W. I mean, you seem to be keeping tabs on her somehow. It is not helping you. It only pours salt into your open wounds. So, will you accept the challenge?
During the next 7 days, will you really focus on yourself and what you can do to start healing? I suspect you'll want to say that saving your M will start the healing, but you have to save yourself, first. What are you currently doing to help yourself come through this crisis a sane, stronger, independent, attractive man?
How do you spend your days/evenings when you don't have S3?
Have you set any personal goals (unrelated to your MR) for the next six months? If not, give it some thought.
How are finding out so much about her business? Tell you what, I want to offer you a challenge. I challenge you to go for the next 7 days that you don't go to whatever source you are currently using to acquire all of this information about your W. I mean, you seem to be keeping tabs on her somehow. It is not helping you. It only pours salt into your open wounds. So, will you accept the challenge?
I find everything out mostly by things she has said or done (she's really terrible at hiding things), plus I'm close friends with the sitter, I'm friends with someone who is her best friend's husband, and just general observation. Of all of the bad things ADHD has done in my life, it's made me very good at picking up on little things and thinking outside the box. I tend to solve puzzles really easily.
I've been focusing mostly on exercising and trying to eat healthier. I go to the park for walks. Yesterday, I felt that I was getting angry, so I went for a second walk. I did have a doctor's appointment yesterday, but I had to reschedule it because without insurance, the visit was too much (and medication would have been even more). I definitely need to get rid of my anxiety, but I'm in a very bad position financially right now, and doctors don't usually accept promises.
I'm going to try to let stuff go and see if I can just make it through the week without really trying to figure stuff out. Honestly, I wish my mind would cooperate with me on that. Heh.
I feel like absolute hell inside.
My days AND evenings are pretty much spent on my own. Most of my friends have lives, families, etc. I'm kind of on my own most of the time. In fact, the only human interaction I've REALLY had over the last 3.5 years has been with S3. W was always working late. We used to talk in the evenings, and most of the time it was nice. Really, without them here, I kinda just don't have anyone. I've made a few new friends, but again, they have stuff to do that doesn't really give them time to hang out, talk, etc.
sandi's challenge still stands. Try to go a week without letting others give you information. If the sitter tries to tell you something about your WW, stop them. Etc.
The first few days you will panic from the lack of control (knowing is a form of control). But after 3-4 days you'll actually feel better! And detachment will come more naturally. It is hard to detach if you can't go more than a day or 2 without hearing new information about your WW.
This is why communication with WW should be business like concerning only logistics of your S3.
Also, that last paragraph you wrote? Excuses. Sorry to be blunt. There are a ton of things that do not require money, or are very low cost. I already told you to join a men's group. Most meet one night every week. That is one night down.
You can get into a softball league. Or a pickup basketball. Pick a sport. Some have cost associated with them but view it as an investment in you!
Are you working out? Joing a gym. There are some that are like $10 or $15 a month. That is one or two trips to a fast food restaurant!
Read. Voraciously. If you are awake, and not busy, you should be reading. Anti-DB books and websites. Self-help books and websites. I know you said you have ADHD. I know that can affect concentration, so break up activities. Read for as long as you can. Go for a walk. Read for as long as you can, call up a friend and have a discussion. Read for as long as you can and then find something to do. Stay busy. GAL. Don't dwell on WW.
Okay, so...today went a little different so far.
W called me because S3 was at the sitters and he had a bit of an upset stomach. She asked if I could take him some clothes from my place, so I did (I'm not helping her, but I will gladly help S3 any time he needs it). I asked her if he needed to go to the doctor, and said I would take him if so...but he's feeling fine, no fever, just upset tummy.
I was just coming back from the grocery store when she got here to pick him up. Again, she looked like hell. It's hot, she's tired, and it really shows how run down she feels.
BUT...I took some advice.
I said "Hello. He's got clean pants on now. Does he need more clothes?" She said she didn't think so. I said "Okay."
And then I took my groceries upstairs, put them away, and didn't watch out the window this time.
Just business related to S3.
I got upstairs, and I smiled a little to myself. I think I'm starting to get the hang of this...slowly...
WELL DONE!!!
Now the key is consistency. So remain vigilant.
I got upstairs, and I smiled a little to myself. I think I'm starting to get the hang of this...slowly...
Way to go, Blakmac!
Wonderful job at not asking your W any personal questions.
Yes, you absolutely did the right thing by taking S3 clothes over to the sitter.
I don't know if it would appeal to you, but some guys can get a boxer's punching bag (I don't know the proper name for it), and it helps them release some of the anger, anxiety, frustration, etc. Walking is excellent excerise, if you do enough.
Regarding the doctor's visit and medication.....have you checked to see if there is a free clinic or health center in your local county?
I don't know if it would appeal to you, but some guys can get a boxer's punching bag (I don't know the proper name for it), and it helps them release some of the anger, anxiety, frustration, etc. Walking is excellent excerise, if you do enough.
sandi, it's called a heavy bag.
Sandi...I have, and there is one, but I really don't think they'll treat ADHD. Although I haven't checked.
I'm not quite ready for a heavy bag yet. Heh. I actually just got back from walking a mile. I may go again this evening...it definitely helps pass the time, and I'm down about 47 lbs., so it's been pretty awesome. I've been mixing a little jogging in with it (I'm still really big, so it's not super easy...yet...) and that definitely is making a difference.
I think the other day I had a mental turning point...I realize now that whatever she's going through isn't my problem, and it's also not my fault. It [censored] to see her hurting. A lot. And I do have empathy...but it's still not my problem. In fact, the more she has to fix on her own, the more likely (at least I believe) that she'll have to accept that she messed this all up. And maybe she'll decide she really did break the relationship, and maybe she'll try to fix it...
But I'm not holding my breath. I'm gonna keep working on myself, keep getting healthier, keep making choices that make me happy, and keep kicking butt.
She can sort out her own problems. Maybe it'll put it into perspective for her that I'm not the root of all of her issues.
Of course, I'm going to be there for our S. No question about that.
But she's on her own for now. Until she decides to step up her game and get serious about life.
We're adults. Okay, I'm an adult. I can own my issues, and even if I can't fix them all, I can fix some of them. And I'm doing just that...and fairly well, honestly.
I know she doesn't know what she's doing with life. One of my favorite quotes is "play stupid games, win stupid prizes". So...she'll win some stupid prizes, and hopefully she can make the best of them.
I feel much better than I have in a while. Not because she's gone...but because I'm actually doing something that I enjoy. Exercising is a big thing for me right now, and I hope I keep it up.
47 pounds is great. Don't know how much more you need to lose, or how hot the weather is there......(so be careful not to overdo), but how about shooting for three miles a day by this time next week? Think you can do it? I know a guy that ate anything he wanted and lost over a 100 pounds by walking every day. He was clicking off ten miles a day! Sounds extreme but he had gotten where it didn't take him very long to walk it....and he was looking really good! So, if you've got the time..........
In fact, the more she has to fix on her own, the more likely (at least I believe) that she'll have to accept that she messed this all up. And maybe she'll decide she really did break the relationship, and maybe she'll try to fix it...
I agree!
I feel much better than I have in a while. Not because she's gone...but because I'm actually doing something that I enjoy. Exercising is a big thing for me right now, and I hope I keep it up.
It is amazing how many LBS say the same thing. And don't forget GAL, too. Maintain this attitude and you will make some wonderful changes in your life......b/c you've already started working on yourself and focusing on the things you control.
47 pounds is great. Don't know how much more you need to lose, or how hot the weather is there......(so be careful not to overdo), but how about shooting for three miles a day by this time next week?
It's TX...so...really hot. And humid. Heh. But that's not a bad goal. I'm still not positive I can pull it off...I honestly still need about 150 more lbs to lose, so I'm not even close to where I need to be. I may try to ramp it up though. It's a good goal for sure.
I got bored, so I went out and walked another 2 miles. So I did hit 3 miles today.
I did send a text to W just to ask if S3 was feeling better, since he was having stomach trouble yesterday. No response yet.
I'm kind of going nuts in my mind right now. Not hearing from her is really difficult in general. I'm still trying to stay busy with stuff though, so hopefully I'll be okay tonight.
Try staying busy to keep your mind occupied. Practice self care. Exercise , Eat, Sleep and Pray all these will help. Stay well!
Do what you can. Don't want a heat stroke! Breaking the miles up during the day is fine. There was an older lady in my neighborhood who was very overweight. At first, she could only walk to the end of her street and back. Finally one day she made it around the block. Eventually, she was walking several miles a day. The weight came off, and I noticed she was much younger than I had originally thought.
. She was an inspiration to others, and I noticed other neighbors started walking around the block several times, too.
I don't push myself super hard with the exercise, and I try to go in the mornings or evenings when it's not quite so hot. I'm getting better stamina though, so I can tell that things are changing in the physical department.
I did finally get a response about our S this morning. It said "Yes".
I get the feeling though that none of this is actually working. I'm going to keep going with it.
I believe that one reason this matters so much to me is that I never had a functional family growing up. I don't really know anyone that did. I wanted better for my S than that. I wanted to be with someone that cared for me. I had that, now it's changed, and it's really painful. (Just a bit of background information. I'm still trying to do DB, but it really is the hardest thing I've ever done, especially since I can't tell if it's working or not. I feel like I'm flying blind.)
"I get the feeling though that none of this is actually working. I'm going to keep going with it."
We all go through that. When I started to detach my W loved it at first. I wasn't pestering her for R talks. I wasn't pursuing or pressuring. But a couple of weeks in a weird thing happened. I went into the bedroom one night I was home to read. About an hour went by and she came down the hall, looked into the bedroom. We made eye contact and she said "I just wondered where you were." That hadn't happened in MONTHS. I could have been laying dead under the refrigerator and she wouldn't have come looking for me. Detaching's #1 power is the lack of pursuit and pressure from you on her. After a while she wonders what happened.
The next thing that started happening is she started asking "what's wrong?" This is a classic sign of a WAW/WW noticing the lack of pursuit and pressure. It is also when they start realizing that their control over you is slipping away. This is when they will start acting out to try to regain control.
DBing isn't about feeling like it is working. It is about consistent behavior on your part and letting the process work over time.
It sounds like it would be easier if she still lived with me. Heh.
So, just now, W decided to reschedule our S psychology appointment...again...and she's refusing to tell me when it is.
Spoiler alert: I already know when it is. It was supposed to be Monday, and I DID inform her after his last visit when it was going to be...but now she's moved it out 9 days, and very early in the morning (it's a 1.5 hour drive without traffic, and traffic is going to be a total nightmare). She's trying to make this inconvenient I believe.
This is absolutely stupid.
bm, opinions vary. Those of us that continued to live with our WWs/WAWs would argue that there are aspects that make it more difficult. Then there are those that are physically separated and they claim there are aspects that would be easier being under the same roof.
The point is that DBing works in both cases. In some ways it is easier being separated, in some ways it is not. But that doesn't change the activity: detach, 180s, GAL, being as awesome as you can be.
On the appointment, just be there. When she gets there and you are there, she can choose to leave. But you should be there. Doctor's orders are more important than WWs wishes.
On the appointment, just be there. When she gets there and you are there, she can choose to leave. But you should be there. Doctor's orders are more important than WWs wishes.
Agreed. Too bad she doesn't understand that concept.
Is it normal for a WW to literally go out of their way to make things difficult for the LBH?
I know she's only really thinking of herself right now, but this is really stupid behavior.
On the appointment, just be there. When she gets there and you are there, she can choose to leave. But you should be there. Doctor's orders are more important than WWs wishes.
Agreed. Too bad she doesn't understand that concept.
Is it normal for a WW to literally go out of their way to make things difficult for the LBH?
I know she's only really thinking of herself right now, but this is really stupid behavior.
blackmac you need to start reading other posters' sitches. Read mtb's thread. You think your WW is going out of her way to make things difficult, read what his WW is pulling on him.
Is it normal for a WW to literally go out of their way to make things difficult for the LBH?
Yes. It is almost as if they get off on it. About 2 weeks ago, my WW called me asking for birth certificates of the kids that she had gotten copies of a few months ago. She needed them immediately. I could not find them right away and she lost it. Cursing at me and threatening to call the police. I finally just had to end the conversation because shI was being so hostile. I ended up finding them a couple hours later and sent her a text informing her that I stuck them in the mailbox and she could pick them up anytime. Then she immediately called me to thank me and then switched right into accusation mode saying that she heard I hooked up with another woman. I just ended the conversation and reminded her the birth certificates were in the mailbox.... they sat in there for 3 or 4 days before I brought them back inside. They are still sitting on the kitchen counter as we speak. She never brought it up again. Real important, right? More like she just wanted me to jump through some hoops and be a pain in my ass...
Wow, that's just nuts. I'm sorry you're having to deal with that.
Messing with me is one thing. But since she's the one that decided to start taking him to a psychologist (who confirmed he has ADHD...just like me...which is why W left presumably), and getting mad at me for trying to follow the doctor's request, and moving his appointments around and not telling me when they are (I have to call the office and find out myself) is literally her messing with S. And that doesn't work for me.
I'm VERY tempted to find an attorney and fight for custody. On the other hand...the more patience I have, the easier it's going to be to make that case if she chooses to continue pursuing the D.
I'm very torn right now. I plan to stay the course and continue DB, but it definitely seems like she thinks she's getting her way, and she's angry at me for being in her way. And I'm not even trying to be.
But everything she does gets written down in a notebook for future reference.
Meanwhile, I'm just trying to stay sane and GAL.
I'm VERY tempted to find an attorney and fight for custody. On the other hand...the more patience I have, the easier it's going to be to make that case if she chooses to continue pursuing the D.
I'm very torn right now. I plan to stay the course and continue DB, but it definitely seems like she thinks she's getting her way, and she's angry at me for being in her way. And I'm not even trying to be.
Do you see getting a lawyer and seeking custody a contradictive move from DBing? I honestly wonder sometimes if people think DBing is acting like a doormat.
WW's blame everything on the LBH. Do you hear what I am saying? Yes, she is very angry at you, b/c she sees you as her main enemy. She is going to fight you tooth & nail on everything, even at the risk of her child. Please digest what I've said. She does not think rationally. It's not just with you......but
everything. She'll blame you for the fact her child has ADHD (which can be inherited). Let's hope & pray she doesn't take that anger out on him.....b/c she thinks he's just like you!
Do you see getting a lawyer and seeking custody a contradictive move from DBing? I honestly wonder sometimes if people think DBing is acting like a doormat.
I'm not sure if you're stating that it IS a contradiction, or that it SHOULD be done...?
I'm starting to get more frustrated. I was going to check the mail, she showed up and was picking up S from the sitter. She at first didn't even look at me till S pointed it out. She wouldn't roll the window down. I tried to call her because I needed to talk to her about S appointments. Held my phone up, said "It's important."
She shook her head no, then smiled a little, then she drove off.
This is some petty BS.
I'm starting to get more frustrated. I was going to check the mail, she showed up and was picking up S from the sitter. She at first didn't even look at me till S pointed it out. She wouldn't roll the window down. I tried to call her because I needed to talk to her about S appointments. Held my phone up, said "It's important."
She shook her head no, then smiled a little, then she drove off.
This is some petty BS.
hmmm, BM you have some work to do. I thought you were just going to show up at the appointment. You understand that every time you reach out like this, and she rebuffs, she knows she still holds the power over you. That was the little smile. I am sure it was more a wry, "I am in control" smile. Don't give her that power. That is what detachment is about.
Don't try to talk to her about the appointment, just show up.
That's what my plan is. She doesn't know that I know when the appointment is.
Traffic is going to be a nightmare. I'm going to figure something out though.
I decided to work on the GAL thing. I was pretty upset earlier, so I went for a walk, then came home and cleaned up and then went to see some local bands play. I had fun for a while, but then started to think about stuff, so I came home.
But you know, it wasn't too bad of a night.
I need more options for staying busy. Heh. It seems to help a lot.
And thanks for the advice to turn down information...unfortunately some of my friends just don't get it, and I end up still hearing stuff that I don't want to really know about...usually slanderous things that just make me angry.
But I'm trying to keep on detaching and doing the GAL thing.
Honestly...I doubt it's going to work. I just really wish that it would...so I'm going to keep doing the things and see how it all shakes out.
Quote:
Do you see getting a lawyer and seeking custody a contradictive move from DBing? I honestly wonder sometimes if people think DBing is acting like a doormat.
I'm not sure if you're stating that it IS a contradiction, or that it SHOULD be done...?
No, I am not saying it is or that it should be a contradiction. I was responding to you talking as if
you saw it as a contradiction, according to your statement in the post.
It's similar to when people make statements like, "I don't know if I should stand up for myself or just stick with DBing".
It makes me wonder how they see DBing.
That's what I thought you were saying, thank you for clearing that up for me.
In a way, at least with my sitch, it feels like DB is a contradiction, or at best hit-or-miss. Putting my foot down about our S in the past has yielded what seemed to be positive results (her being more willing to talk to me, her opening up about things, etc.). But lately it seems to have the exact opposite effect (her refusing to talk to me at all, not even looking at me, etc.).
I think that's where the confusion comes into play...sometimes it looks like I'm making progress and sometimes it just looks like I'm making her run away faster.
I did get some good news this morning. Her mom called me and asked if I wanted to keep S tomorrow for Father's Day. She had apparently told her mom that I wasn't trying to help her out with him, didn't want to see him, etc. I told her mom I would LOVE to see him, and that I had tried to switch weekends with her, but she didn't want to (which is completely true).
So at least that's good news.
Putting my foot down about our S in the past has yielded what seemed to be positive results (her being more willing to talk to me, her opening up about things, etc.). But lately it seems to have the exact opposite effect (her refusing to talk to me at all, not even looking at me, etc.).
But did you put your foot down when it come to how she treated you in the MR?
Have you googled how to show male dominance in M? I don't mean read that essay thing, and I'm not referring to H's who beat their W's.
But did you put your foot down when it come to how she treated you in the MR?
Mostly, it's been about how she's been handling S.
I did look up male dominance in M, but mostly, I just got a bunch of ultra-feminist articles.
Do you have any links that you could recommend?
Standing up for yourself is not dominance. Lots of folks get this wrong. As a man you don't have to let your W walk all over you in the relationship. Lots of guys have NGS. It causes your W to lose respect for you, and almost always attraction follows respect.
Our modern society isn't a big fan of gender roles. Which is why these forums are full of MR in trouble because you can't fight biology.
I'm really happy that she let S come over for Father's Day. We've had a good day.
I've only showed him positive feelings since he's been here, and we've had a lot of fun playing with his toy trucks and just being silly.
W should be here in about an hour and a half to pick him up, and she's bringing one of her super biased friends with her, not sure if it's a "buffer" or a "witness". Either way, it's super annoying.
I'm not a fan of this behavior at all. I've asked her not to bring her friends to my place at all. Just not sure how to address it, or if I should let it go.
It doesn't matter, she's just playing the victim. I suppose I should just be polite and not start an argument around S.
W just picked S up. I stayed cool. I did thank her for letting him come over. She just said "mmmmmm" and made a face.
Probably because she told her friends that I don't want to see him, and her friend was within earshot.
I gave him a big hug as he was leaving. Then just politely waved as they drove off.
I'm getting better at detaching. It still hurts to see them both leaving though.
Shortly after W picked up S, she texted me. She asked if he had a nap during the day. I said no, and I figured that he was giving her a difficult time (she likes to tell me when she thinks I've messed up). Apparently he went straight to bed.
There was actually no reason for her to text me. So perhaps the sort of random messages have started again. I dunno. I'm gonna leave it alone and see what happens.
Board policies prevent me giving a link. I am not referring to feminist articles/books. It is how to show male dominance in marriage. It is not negative. When a man knows how to show male dominance in the bedroom, in their relationship.....it causes her to desire him. It makes her feel feminine, sexy, desirable, and she is strongly attracted to him when he takes charge in the right way.
I get that. I think that's where I went wrong. I was too depressed and couldn't really dominate anything. The times I tried, I got screamed at for it.
I've always known how to do that, but I guess the more self-doubt I had, the more it slipped away.
I know I have a lot of work to do. I'm starting to finally get some confidence back. In my particular sitch, it's been very difficult to find opportunities for that. And the times that I do, it's hit or miss.
I'm going to keep moving forward and see what happens. I'm still hopeful that things will improve...right now it's just about as rock bottom as it can get.
Hi blakmac,
Our S keeps asking me why I'm sad. I may be able to keep my composure in front of her most of the time...but around just him, I can't do it.
You got to do it. You got to try to spare him the trouble.
I just tell him that I miss him and mommy living with me. I can't explain any of this to him...or at least I don't know how.
I think you explained it pretty well.
She spent so much energy telling me to fix myself and I couldn't at the time. Now I'm working hard to make improvements, do DB, and I'm really not seeing anything helping the situation.
It is great that you are working on yourself. However, do not do it for her to notice. Do it for you and for your son. No matter how this ends you will be happy you have done it.
You are doing fine, you focus on the right things.
I get that. I think that's where I went wrong. I was too depressed and couldn't really dominate anything. The times I tried, I got screamed at for it.
If she had to take charge of most things during the time you were depressed, then I'm sure she
did scream at you. By then, she had lost respect in you as a man.
Unfortunately, if a H goes through a lengthy period of depression, it can dramatically change the dynamics in the MR. If he just shuts down and everything depends on her.....the chances of her losing respect for him as the provider, protector, leader, etc., is great. A lot would depend upon her compassion and understanding......which can take a big hit if she's lost her admiration for him. Resentment can come easily, especially if you don't have enough maturity to deal with the struggles facing the couple. Even then, a person can simply wear out. If she saw no end in sight, it may have felt like a hopeless situation.
That's what I got from everything she said.
She noticed a major change once I quit taking the meds...I was getting things done, and seemed to be doing well. She even ALMOST said that it was exactly what she needed. She stopped at the "I need" part and said "I don't want to give you the wrong idea..."
I went out of town for a couple of days to stay with a friend. I got back today, picked up S from the sitter. The sitter said that W noticed I wasn't home when she picked up/dropped off, so she was asking about me, if I was ok, etc.
This morning, W sent me a very polite message asking me if I could pick up S. I was planning on it anyway, but getting a "Good morning. Would you please pick up S at 6 today?" message was kind of unexpected.
I politely thanked her for the reminder, said I would pick him up, and told her to have a good day.
Doing the GAL thing seems to at least be giving her time to stop being so angry. I like it.
It's been 4 months now (yesterday) since she moved out. I know I'm doing a lot better, but it still hits me pretty hard when I think about the whole thing.
Some days are just harder than others lately.
I guess I'm still hoping that this all works out somehow.
W just picked S up. She has informed me that from now on, she will only use the monitored parking spaces at the local police department, because she's "not comfortable" around me. I pointed out that the only reason she's not comfortable is her own guilt.
She has been bringing friends to pick up S. Today, she brought the couple that has been slandering me. He's a cop. They were in his private car, off duty, and they sat on the road without coming onto the property.
I told him he's not welcome here. He said "I'm on the road, that's now how it works."
I sent him a text message requesting that he stay away from my apartment complex.
I sent a LONG text to W.
"There is absolutely no reason to bring anyone to my apartment. You are only not comfortable because of your own guilt. I have asked [names withheld] to stay away. I am not interested in feeling like a threat when you and I both know that I have never threatened you at all. You keep playing the helpless, victimized, single mom, but the truth is that you just wanted to sleep with other people. I am not playing your games. You need to consider the feelings of people other than yourself for once. I am not interested in arguing with you, or anything like that. I am only interested in S well-being at this point, and your games are making everything more difficult. You bring other men around our S, you insist on having people watch me like a hawk (I honestly don't care about their opinions, but I am not interested in being made into a laughing stock or feeling like my privacy at home is being threatened). You move S appointments around just to be difficult (I can simply call the dr's office...and I set up the last appt you moved...I don't care if you're present, and I'm willing to take him myself without you) just to control things. You need to stop acting like a 15 year old throwing a tantrum and start acting like a grown woman with a son. He is NOT an inconvenience to me, and you need to quit pushing his care off to fit your personal whims. Your lack of communication is what got us into this situation, as did your selfishness. But do not bring anyone else near my apartment. Whether they sit on the road or not, they are NOT welcome here. And since we have no written agreements in place, I do not have to honor your requests to meet at any specified location. I have no intention or interest in being your doormat."
Ugh. I'm furious. I'm sick to death of people coming to monitor my dealings with W and S. It's enraging. I'm not a child, and I don't feel like this is going well at all.
I know that there's nothing I can do about him coming to my apartment and sitting on the road. But he's a cop. He's also a...well, the board will censor me if I say what I think of him and his wife.
This is just infuriating.
So, after the last post, I found the threads on validation. I'm going to start working on this as I can. Right now, I feel like things are still just rocketing towards the bottom of the volcano at a really high rate of speed.
I really don't know how to read her lately enough to know if anything at all is working. Mostly because she absolutely refuses to talk to me or be anywhere near me without a buffer person.
It's really like she's TRYING to make things harder.
Any advice I can get on, well, pretty much any way to turn this around would be amazing. I'm still working on me, still trying to be positive and upbeat (although having her friends at my house, who were literally lying about me to people, really upset me a lot today), still trying to GAL and do what I can to make any progress at all...and it feels like no matter what I do, it is only making everything worse.
I talked to an old friend of ours today (who isn't friends with W now, but used to be). Back when W and this friend used to talk about their H's, apparently my W said that she always knew she would hurt me like this because I'm just too good.
I can't figure that out. It's almost like she planned all along to leave me at some point, and that it's like she's too broken to actually handle having a normal, healthy R. I just don't get her at all anymore.
Well, apparently W went to a concert this weekend while I had S. And she's posted pics of her kissing some girl, and some very inappropriate things on her Facebook.
I didn't want this info. But I'm archiving it.
This is really, really stupid.
Blacmac- time to detatch- time to stop following her on FB. The time is now to focus on you and our S. Be the best you can - You do not require any updates on her- focus on you.
BM, I feel like you've ignored a lot of advice on this board. I really really really wish you had consulted the board before sending that text.
Impulsiveness will kill you in DBing. When you begin to react the way you did to her bringing this couple to the pick up you need to stop and think about what you are doing. The text did nothing except prove to your W that her bringing them bugged you. Probably the exact effect she was going for.
"It's really like she's TRYING to make things harder. " Because she is!! She wants you to give up. She wants you to get so frustrated that you are just willing to give up custody of your S. Does she really want full custody? Probably not but she likes the financial windfall that comes from full custody.
Texts like the one you sent do nothing. Texts to the cop do nothing. You cannot control any of it and trying to will only result in further frustration and potentially even more damaging behavior.
You had gone along doing pretty well recently. This is a setback. Your W can bring, unfortunately, anyone she wants (short of a sexual offender) to the pickups. It [censored], but it is the way that it is.
So start focusing on what you CAN control. You. I know it is hard. I struggled with control issues early in my sitch. The sooner you realize you have zero control over her the sooner you'll be able to truly detach. And trust me, your W knows that you aren't detached and that every thing she does to bug you will, in fact, bug you. Detachment isn't something you pretend, is something you live. And W's have a way of knowing when you are pretending.
Blacmac- time to detatch- time to stop following her on FB. The time is now to focus on you and our S. Be the best you can - You do not require any updates on her- focus on you.
I don't follow her on FB. I'm detaching. But I keep getting this stuff from friends/family that know we have a divorce pending. They all say I should go for custody.
BM, I feel like you've ignored a lot of advice on this board. I really really really wish you had consulted the board before sending that text.
I haven't been ignoring it. Not at all. But things tend to get really heated quickly, and I don't usually have time to consult the board, although I wish that I could.
You had gone along doing pretty well recently. This is a setback. Your W can bring, unfortunately, anyone she wants (short of a sexual offender) to the pickups. It [censored], but it is the way that it is.
Yes, it does. Very much. It just bugs me that I can't even be around my own family without someone being at MY apartment to watch.
So start focusing on what you CAN control. You. I know it is hard. I struggled with control issues early in my sitch. The sooner you realize you have zero control over her the sooner you'll be able to truly detach. And trust me, your W knows that you aren't detached and that every thing she does to bug you will, in fact, bug you. Detachment isn't something you pretend, is something you live. And W's have a way of knowing when you are pretending.
I know this is good advice. Thank you. Man, I was doing so good this past week. The pics she posted of her humping some random dude's leg at this concert really kind of sent me over. Especially knowing that she doesn't want me to go for custody.
It's just...embarrassing. One day our S may see those pics. Everyone else has (since most of our families are still mutual friends even though she has me blocked...and I have her blocked...).
All of this while she keeps asking people if I'm okay.
This just hurts a lot.
I expect her to act out. But I didn't expect her to make herself a spectacle knowing she has a S that looks up to her.
Just remember, while your friends and family have their hearts in the right place, the courts won't care about that picture. I remember a case a few years ago where a W had committed multiple affairs, including some very deviant sexual behavior (3 ways, orgies, etc).
The LBH has proof of these activities and was trying to use it for full custody. The judge looked at him and said: "Okay so you've proven that she likes sex, how does that make her bad mother?"
Just want you to be realistic. A L will know more than me. But don't get your hopes up for custody over some pictures of her dirty dancing at a concert.
I'm not. It's just really hurtful to see that, and to know that she's tearing apart a family that really loves her for no real reason.
I don't want to fight in court. I want to R. I'm not saying that to her. I'm trying not to chase, and I'm getting better at it. But it's like one slap in the face after another.
This proves you haven't detached. When you can hear about her wayward activities and not react emotionally, then you have detached. It is hard, detachment is not easy, but again it is not something you have to live, not just fake. Faking it to make it is fine, but at some point it has to become real.
That should have read it IS something you have to live.
That makes a lot of sense. I am definitely trying. The pictures honestly didn't shock me at all, but her posting them openly did.
I completely expect her to keep acting out. I'm still doing the GAL thing (in fact, I made some new friends today and ended up randomly hanging out with them the entire day, and it was a blast).
I think that detaching for me is really difficult because I cared so much, got blindsided, and then everything just fell apart. It was a huge amount of crap within a very short period of time.
But I think you're right. While I'm trying to detach, I'm only doing it kind of...not 100% yet.
I'm not sure at all how long it will take. I'm getting better, but it's taking what feels like an eternity.
I'm about to have a talk with all of the friends/family and request that they do not, under any circumstances, send me any information about her, her stupidity, or anything else. It's just too much to handle, and I can't detach if I keep getting steamrolled over and over again. I know that they mean well, but it's just too difficult, and seems to be derailing what I'm trying to do, which is DB the hell out of this.
I know I've been really mixed up about everything. I know that I tend to make a lot of DB mistakes. I wish there was a big reset button for everything.
But I'll keep moving forward. Thank you.
blackmac, we ALL make mistakes in DBing. There have been very few that do it perfectly. One thing to note, those that have done it very well are usually very successful in attracting back their spouse. Every setback does hurt your chances.
But setbacks are in the past. All you can do is resolve to do better from this point forward. That is what DBing is about. Picking yourself back up by your bootstraps and going back to work.
I feel like you and OrangeK are in similar situations. Very dangerous situations. Where the WW is attempting to provoke you into doing something that will get you more permanently out of their hair. Don't take the bait.
I've noticed that as well.
I made a post on my Facebook asking all of my friends and family to kindly knock off sending/telling me stuff about W. I know the mean well...but I can't keep getting hurt over and over and expect to get anywhere with DB at all.
So to the friends/fam, it looks like I'm just done with the entire thing. Which is good, because I need them to chill.
Meanwhile, I'm still just gonna do my GAL stuff and completely distance myself from W (except for dealing with S) and see if I can make any kind of progress at all by just backing off totally.
I guess we'll see what happens.
Just for reference, here's the text of my request to everyone. Sharing because maybe someone else could use help figuring out what to say if they're in this situation (slight edits for forum):
Everyone,
I know you have all been supportive and well-meaning with all of the drama going on with W. But going forward, I do not wish to see any pictures, screenshots, texts, or anything at all about her or what she is up to. I know that there are things happening that I don't like, and that may (or may not) be relevant to the divorce, however I cannot continue to see/hear/be involved in any of them if I honestly expect to recover from this.
Again, I appreciate the support, however I can't heal when I keep hearing about her behavior.
The bottom line is this: I want to be the best dad that I can be for S, and I want to stick with my plan. I can't afford to keep getting derailed.
I would recommend that if you are friends with W, consider unfriending either her or I. I would hate to see you go, however it's in the best interest of S and my mental, physical, and emotional health if I am not exposed to anything else, and I won't take it personally. Most of you have my phone number, and I can be reached there. If you don't have it, and would like to say hello, it's (withheld). Just because we aren't friends on Facebook doesn't mean we aren't friends.
Unfortunately, I cannot just deactivate my Facebook account because of the pages related to my website, band, and other things that I have to keep running. If not for those things, I would just log off for a while.
I want you all to know that I truly appreciate the support and friendship you have shown me. But I can't keep going down this path of feeling better and then getting hurt repeatedly. It's best if I detach.
I will do my best to cut out the posts about it. I tend to use Facebook like a journal, but honestly...I just need a break. I need to take some time for myself, focus on the things I can control, and stop thinking about the things I can't.
Again, thank you, but please stop.
I think this is a good move, mac. It is hard to detach if you are constantly being told of her doings. Social media has destroyed many marriage, and thwarted many DBing efforts.
After my long text and my post requesting that people leave me alone...something happened today.
I had a dr appt, so I went to that. When I got home, I came upstairs and got a shower. While I was in the shower, W came to pick up S from the sitter. I didn't realize that.
I went down, saw her car, and I just got in my car and left to take care of some business around town. I didn't stick around to talk, and only looked to see if she was near the car so I could wait till she was gone. I left before she got out of the sitter's apartment.
A few minutes later, she called. I let it ring a few times, and then I answered. I expected her to try to start a fight.
She asked if I was planning on going to S appt tomorrow. I reminded her that she never told me when it was. She pointed out that I could always call the dr and ask (which I had already done, but didn't tell her that I did). I told her that I was. She let me know that the dr had moved the appt to later in the day, and she wouldn't be able to make it because she has work in the afternoon, and she asked if I would take him to the appointment...which I had planned to do when I set up the previous appt that she moved.
I told her that I would take him. She asked if I would be home in the morning so she could drop him off, I told her "I should be."
She then asked me very politely if I would please be there. So I said that I would.
I told her that for him, I would always be willing to get him to the doctor, with or without her, because he comes first.
She texted me the times of the appointment. I said "Excellent. Thank you for the reminder. Have a great evening, and I'll see you in the morning."
I get the feeling that someone must have sent her a screenshot of my post about not wanting to know anything that she's doing. It feels like she's reaching out because she is losing control over me, and she knows it. Which is amusing in a way.
She always knew I'd be there for her. But with me being away from home most of last week, and then me leaving today without trying to talk to her or even look at her (and the fact that you can totally hear my shower from downstairs, and being the middle of the day...), it feels like she's trying to very sneakily figure out what I'm up to.
I still wonder what she's up to, but I'm really trying to do the "I don't care what she's doing" thing. And I mean it. I'm focusing more on detaching than I have in the past. I started taking my ADHD meds again today so that I can focus on things I need to be doing. Honestly, the meds improved my mood dramatically once they kicked in.
I'm considering going out to karaoke tonight, although I have to get up at a decent time tomorrow to take S to the doctor, so that might not happen. Plus, if I go out and she's there...I'll probably just get angry that she's taking the night off (again) to have fun, and just doesn't want to have to get up super early. It's speculation, sure, but it's a thing she's done before.
Anyway, that's the update for now.
Tomorrow should be interesting.
Be careful blackmac. I don't trust her. Stay calm and cool and detached in any interaction with her. Do not let her rile you up.
I am doing what I can to be careful. Which brings me to today's update.
I took S to his appointment today alone. W said she had a meeting out of town.
I set up the next appointment. At her request, I texted her the time/date. She texted back "Thank you. I'll be taking him my myself. Will you respect my wishes and stay in town?"
I haven't replied yet.
I spoke to an acquaintance who is neutral that works with W, just to confirm the meeting (since I didn't really believe her, considering that she wasn't in uniform and came back with new sunglasses). He confirmed, it was actually a company picnic. There's a chance it was mandatory for her to be there, but I wasn't told one way or the other.
And then the friend said that he understood that I was only confirming for S's well-being...and then he told me that he knew her slanderous friends well before they met W and I. He said they have been pushing her to leave me for a couple of years now, and W even stopped working with them to try to fix our R. But somehow she decided to go back to being friends with them.
Fast forward to today. The husband of that pair of "friends" is now harassing his cousin (a friend of mine) trying to get her to confess to being "more than friends" with me. He's a police office...so he's trained on how to manipulate people to extract information. She messaged me about it, screenshots of what he was saying...(yeah, my friends don't always listen...but since this wasn't about what W was doing, and it's something that's hurting my friend's family, she needed to vent to me), he was playing the "your friend already told me everything, so we know what happened, we just want your side" card against her.
By the way, this friend has been severely emotionally, mentally, verbally, and physically abused in her life, so she's really having a difficult time with this.
What I believe is that had these two toxic friends of W not ever been involved, this may never have happened. And now I'm seeing from MULTIPLE sources that they have pretty much orchestrated this entire thing.
They're trying to manipulate my friend. They've manipulated W.
In the past, they tried to even buy my friendship with gifts, but I never could get close because something just didn't feel right about them.
Once they saw they couldn't manipulate me...they changed.
I will never know why...but at least I believe that I've identified the main catalyst in this whole thing.
Oh...addendum.
I still don't care what W is doing. I have finally hit the point where I know I'm going to be okay no matter what.
Just still have a lot of bs to sort out. Heh.
mac, that was very confusing. I am not sure I am following. Why is this husband harassing this woman?
Okay, so...this is complex, so I'll try to make this as easy as I can, but like I said...it's complex.
Key
===
W = well, you know who this is
N1 = toxic person, h of N2. Also cousin of F and happens to be a cop
N2 = toxic person, w of N1
F = a friend of mine, cousin of N1
After W left, and I started to try to GAL, I met F. Yes, female, but just friends. She happens to be the cousin of N1.
N1/N2 are W's "best friends in the whole world", and W and N2 have a side business together.
F has had a really bad life, abused in many ways, definitely has issues. F told me about two days ago about N1 basically grilling her about our friendship. Basically trying to get her to give up information about whether there was a thing with us or not. She has stated over and over again to them that we are just friends.
F, despite being family, has always been targeted by both N1/N2 for no clear reason.
Since N1/N2 have been focusing attention on F, W has been a bit more approachable, almost caring with me.
W also has a past history of severe emotional and physical abuse spanning most of her childhood and even into young adulthood.
Today I've learned that W had stopped working with N2 for some time due to "drama", which I knew about, but W never said what that was about other than "negativity, drama"...but another friend who knows W and also has known N1/N2 for about 15 years that W said AT THE TIME SHE STOPPED WORKING WITH N2 that she quit because they were constantly pressuring her to leave me, and she wasn't okay with that. She wasn't terribly happy, however she wanted to focus on not losing me. Apparently this has gone on for over two years now, almost non-stop.
N1 appears to be trying to use police interrogation tactics to manipulate F into giving him info to give to W in an effort to push W farther away from me.
Basically...I don't think W is in control of the situation at all...I think N1/N2 are pressuring her into this because they don't like me, simply because I don't play their drama games. Never have. They have always been really creepy to me.
I know it's convoluted. But given what they are doing to F (literally pushing her out of the family, which they know means more to F than anything else in the world, simply for being friends with me), it's obvious that they are very manipulative, controlling, and downright abusive...and they'll do it to their own family.
Both W and F are easy targets for NPD people...and both have been in the past.
Someone with NPD would use that to their advantage to basically build up their own narcissistic supply, at the cost of whatever as long as it isn't their own feelings about themselves.
Given what I've learned today, it's ENTIRELY plausible that either N1 or N2 have NPD, have attempted to discard me because I don't supply them with anything, and at some point down the road would absolutely discard W as well...which she won't see coming. And by then, I'll be long gone because I'm not useful. Nor is F. Nor is W.
I think that N1/N2 are basically willing to abuse anyone to get what they want...and in this case, they are using W as a proxy to get rid of me.
In a nutshell, I'm really, really pissed off that these people would try to dismantle my family for their own selfish reasons.
I'm absolutely not okay with sitting back and watching them use my W to get at me.
I'm absolutely not okay with my S being "collateral damage".
I WILL save my M.
But I'm not sure how to go about it.
IF they are actually NPD, then W has to see them exposed to really see what's going on.
This is going to be a weird, difficult battle.
That also explains why W is only barely responding to DB techniques, or responding the exact opposite of what they would normally do...
Also why she doesn't respond at all unless someone other than her is their target.
mac, your wife is a grown woman. Sorry, but you can misplace your anger and blame at N1 and N2 if that makes you feel better. But it is just like trying to blame an OM, it doesn't work. If N1/N2 got your W to leave, then something else would have eventually if they hadn't.
So don't focus on N1/N2. They are outside of your sphere of control.
Do you know where your sphere of control stops? With you! So continue to focus on your changes.
That also explains why W is only barely responding to DB techniques, or responding the exact opposite of what they would normally do...
Also why she doesn't respond at all unless someone other than her is their target.
This is very dangerous thinking. First here is no "they would normally do...."
DBing isn't a guarantee of achieving certain behaviors from your W. NOTHING is. If you are DBing simply to get your W to respond in certain ways then you are a) doing it wrong and b) in for disappointment.
DBing is first and foremost about YOU. GAL helps you to keep your mind off of the sitch. 180ing lets you learn and grow from your sitch. Detachment helps you be okay with whatever your W chooses. DBing also has a side effect that SOMETIMES it will cause the WAS to decide "Hmmmm, something is up, something is different, something has changed, LBS is behaving differently" and it might pique their interest to find out more.
Foundational rule of DBing is YOU CANNOT CONTROL YOUR WAS. If you use DBing as a control method you will not be successful because you are doing it with the wrong intention.
Also, the reason that DBing often feels counter-intuitive is, first it is the opposite of what you would do (which is why it can be intriguing to the WAS). But also if you are doing it for the wrong reasons then you will always feel like it is the wrong approach!
Also, you have no idea if your DBing is having an effect on your W. Just because she isn't responding the way you want, or as quickly as you want, doesn't mean it having no impact. That is also dangerous thinking because, it too, will undermine your efforts.
So get out of your head. It doesn't matter if your W is being led by the nose by N1/N2, an OM, a religious cult, or by the devil himself! It doesn't impact what you should be doing to prepare yourself for whatever the final outcome might be.
I hope this helps blackmac. We see a lot of newbies make the same mistakes and it can be frustrating because we know they'd be better off sticking strictly to DBing principles.
I completely agree. Just because I'm seeing this, doesn't mean I'm stopping my DB efforts. If nothing else, I'm more certain that this is what I need to be doing, and I need to be sticking to it.
If nothing else, it just helps me understand what happened in a more clear way. I know that W wasn't happy, but I also know now that she actually did care enough to try to fight for me...at least back then.
I don't want to put too much stock into it, because I know that was BEFORE, and now the situation requires DB and not "controlling". I'm aware completely that I can't control anyone other than myself...but I am choosing to use this as information that helps me stay focused on my efforts to work on myself.
I've always been a bit rebellious, but generally not in unhealthy ways. I know that somewhere inside W has doubts, or had them at some point, about this. As long as she has doubt, then I stand a better chance. And the harder her friends push her, the more I want to make sure I do this right.
I have to be patient. This, of course, defies my instincts, which honestly say "these people have taken over your family, fight back". But I know that if I am not patient, I will completely mess this up.
It's knowing how to fight the battles that makes the difference.
And I believe what I've seen and heard from this board. I believe that this is the correct way to fight this battle.
Sorry, I know some of my posts sound like I'm completely ignoring things...I'm not. Just thinking out loud, trying to write thoughts out so I can process them better.
Just listen to what Steve has said. DB is for you, you can not control your W. Detach, start doing things for yourself. And remember that all this is a marathon, time is on your side.
Randomly, she just texted me.
"I do not want any further contact with you in any form. Do not contact me again."
First...other than dealing with S, I haven't tried to contact her at all.
Second...I have no idea what is going on.
Randomly, she just texted me.
"I do not want any further contact with you in any form. Do not contact me again."
First...other than dealing with S, I haven't tried to contact her at all.
Second...I have no idea what is going on.
I do. You are dealing with a WW. Expect the unexpected.
The unexpected happened, and now it's the unknown.
I went to town to get away from the house for a while this afternoon. I decided to wait until after her normal pickup time for S so I didn't have to be around her.
I called the sitter to see if he had been picked up...he had, but about the time I received the text this morning. According to the sitter, she was panicked, ran in, grabbed S, even left his shoes behind, and left. She didn't say what was up, but said that she would let her know later.
That's about the same time I got the text.
Something is insanely off. This doesn't feel right at all.
I get it...things aren't normal...but this is way, way not normal.
Just a couple of observations if I may:
"When I put my foot down over S then she caves"
It might be because you 'put your foot down' rather than negotiating that she doesn't want to be in contact?
Do you know how to relate to your partner?
Do you know how to create an intimate R?
Are you inconsistent with boundaries? Weak sometimes and over the top on others.
--------------------------------
Your M is over, and you can't save it. It is gone. Why would you want back something that wasn't working?
Why do you not want something better?
None of this negates W actions, she could have chosen to work rather than go this route.
But what was your part in the breakdown of your M? Are you controlling? Nice guys usually are.
V
I've never been controlling at all.
I just found out that W has been telling people that she is scared of me, and that she's afraid I will hurt her and S.
Today, she picked up S early from the sitter. She told the sitter this afternoon that she can never bring him back here again.
I don't know what's happening. But I do know that now she's stepping into a place where I'm going to have to actually get an attorney (and I have no way to afford one) just to keep myself safe.
I'm devastated. I've been trying to stay away. I've been actually going out of my way to avoid her and give her space.
I've been working on myself.
I've been trying to do the best I can for S.
And now...honestly I'm scared.
Yeah, you need to get an attorney pronto. She is clearly trying to set things up to shut you out of your S life. That is what is happening. I understand you saying that you cannot afford an attorney, but you have to find some way to get some legal help here.
You need to protect your rights. I am so sorry that this is happening to you. Try and calm down though, you need to keep a cool head about this. Unless you have actually done something to warrant such action from her, you need to approach this rationally.
Definitely trying to stay rational.
Wow. This is really, really messed up.
Probably a stupid question, but does anyone know of anyone doing DB that's managed to be successful when things escalate to this level?
I'm definitely going to protect myself, however I have to do it. But going from married to this in four months seems kind of...freaking sadistic.
In a way, reading about WW, they almost seem tame compared to this level of mental and emotional assault. It's almost as though it's DESIGNED to force me to give up all hope.
I don't believe that W ever had this level of malice in her. I know for a fact she doesn't. And YES, I understand that she's making these choices. But it is absolutely not a normal situation, and I know for a FACT she's not working alone to do this.
I just can't fathom this at all.
There is one of two things happening
Firstly she is frightened for herself and yes it can be her emotion without foundation and it can be genuine. I did ask if you were controlling because a couple of your comments came across that way. This might mean that W feels it's your way or the highway.
You dismissed my clean questions immediately without reflection. Is this usual for you with feedback.
The second explanation is that it's a tactic on her part
Either way you need an L.
V
Oh and there is use of the word trying!
V
mac, I've been warning you for a few days now. I could tell from her behavior that she was trying to provoke you. What is happening is that she has run out of patience with trying to provoke you and is now has move to false accusations.
bm, the end goal here is likely to get full custody and have to deal with you as little as possible. She has already made it clear with the "don't come to the appointment" and moving it that she doesn't want to deal with you, and she also realizes that likely she will be doing this until your S is 18.
Remain calm. As you already know get a lawyer. If you haven't been told this it always gets worse before it gets better. Keep on focusing on you.
It is clear that when you didn't promise her not to be at the next appointment that pushed her over the edge. Just keep doing what you've been doing and get a an attorney.
mac, everyone says that can't afford a lawyer, but you need to look at it that you can't afford to NOT have a lawyer.
If she has had someone whispering in her ear some strategy to "set you up" (false allegations, etc.) then forget DBing and saving the relationship, at this time. Take every caution to protect yourself. Sometimes, you just have to completely remove yourself from their life. You don't want anything to be seen as pressure. So, go dark as midnight. No more glimpses. No contact.
It really bothers me how quickly and how often we are seeing this sort of thing happen. Don't be alone with her, ever. Don't take her bait if she tries to meet with you alone. Don't talk over the phone and let her get you angry (she may be recording). Stay as far away as possible.
Don't try to address this issue with her. It is a trap. Leave her alone.
I'm not. It's just really hurtful to see that, and to know that she's tearing apart a family that really loves her for no real reason.
I don't want to fight in court. I want to R. I'm not saying that to her. I'm trying not to chase, and I'm getting better at it. But it's like one slap in the face after another.
That is the way to go. The good news is that you will get even better with it, and will eventually not even notice when you get new slaps in the face. Just focus on your goals and ignore what she does. What she does and says reflects only her, not you.
This morning things got more difficult, but after some research I got it all figured out.
I was issued a CTW this morning, so I can't go to W apartment or her friends w/o getting in trouble.
I thought she did this to cut me off, but it turns out that it was a misunderstanding on the part of the person I spoke with at the DC's office and the person at the constable's office. She was on the phone with the constable's office, misspoke (I corrected her, but that didn't get relayed). So the constables thought they needed to figure out what was going on.
They showed up at W apartment this morning saying that I had made a complaint alleging that W and her friend were having an affair (which is the part that I corrected with the DC's office, I told them no, they're just friends). They were checking up on me to figure out if I was trying to threaten harm against her friend. She validated that I was not violent, which was good. She explained what was going on, at least what her perception of it was. They recommended that she issue the CTW, and she was understandably nervous, so she agreed and went ahead.
I had gone to the office to try to figure out how to do an information request to figure out if he was using work resources to check up on me, but I didn't lodge any complaints or make that accusation.
Basically, she made an emotional decision based on misinformation. Which, unfortunately, has consequences. She didn't think this through logically, and made a big mistake that could affect the divorce case.
W's sister reached out to me to try to figure out what was happening. She talked to W, who agreed that she could tell me her side. I listened and gave her the accurate info from my side.
She didn't ask W, but she asked me if I'd be willing to work something out so I could still see S.
I told her I was willing to work something out, but until W fixes the mess she made with her emotionally fueled decisions, there's legally nothing I can do to see him. Even though it totally violates my parental rights.
She went with emotions, and made a huge mess.
I am still working on finding an attorney, and I stressed to her sister that I will protect myself and neither contact W nor attempt to go near her (still contact) until she figures this out herself, because even if she means to let me see S, I can't trust that she won't make another emotional decision that will land me in hot water with the law.
She said "it sounds like you're being stubborn." I replied "well, the law is kind of stubborn."
So the good news is that I'm not falling for a trap.
The bad news is that until this gets cleared up, I'm stuck.
And it still doesn't explain the panic yesterday that W went into, but at least I know to avoid contact, and I am not asking anyone to try to contact her.
Just an update.
Emotions can seriously mess you up.
mac your story has a lot of holes. this doesn't add up. are there any important details you're leaving out?
I'm not sure where the holes are, but if you would like to point them out, I'll be glad to fill in any details I may have overlooked when typing it up.
Basically, sometimes I don't type things out in an order that makes sense to everybody, but these are actually all of the important details. But still, I'd be glad to answer questions.
Okay, now that I've had time to calm down a bit, let me try to go over what happened in a more sane order, just to clear things up.
First, understand that other than W asking me to take S to his appointment Wednesday, and relaying the information about his new appointment, we have had no contact. Later that evening, she texted me stating that she will take him to the appointment herself, and asking if I will respect her wishes and stay home that day.
I did not respond.
Thursday morning, I received a text from W stating that she does not want me to contact her in any way. Around the same time, she picked up S from the sitter. I was home, but I didn't know she had done this because I was busy doing stuff around the house indoors.
Later that afternoon (before I knew she had picked S up), I went downtown to the DC's office to try to find out how to submit an FOIA request for records on her cop friend, because I believe he may have used his work access to try to dig up information on me, spy on my social media, etc. Why? Because ALL of them have been blocked from my social media accounts, and I felt like somehow things were still being leaked to her. Not that I was posting anything crazy, but still...just a hunch. And I've worked in IT, so I know it's completely possible.
The lady at the DC's office called the constables office. I had explained what I was there and why I wanted to do that, but she misunderstood (probably wasn't listening very closely). She told the person over the phone "we have a customer that wants to file a complaint, he says his wife is having an affair with an officer..." so I immediately spoke up and said "no...not an affair, they are just friends". She did NOT relay that over the phone though, so the constable's office only got one side. They gave me the information I needed, and I left.
I sat in my car in a parking lot downtown for a while, because I didn't want to be at my place when W picked up S, because I am trying to stay away from her and give her space.
About 5:30 pm, I called the sitter to ask if S had been picked up, because I wanted to make sure the coast was clear to go home. She then told me that he had been picked up early that morning, and for some reason W was panicking.
The panicked picking up of S happened BEFORE I even went to the DC's office, so those things aren't related.
Friday morning, two constables went to W's apartment to find out who I was, and make sure I wasn't a threat (which is strange, because I clearly wasn't doing anything sketchy, just trying to figure out how to protect myself in a legal manner). She talked to them, they recommended that she get a CTW against me so that there's a layer of protection, just in case. I know she told them that I was not violent, so that didn't seem to make sense, but I guess that was logical to the constables and to her.
I didn't know they went to her first.
Then they came to my house, issued the CTW. My landlord (who has known W longer than I have) came down when she saw the constables at my apartment. I explained the entire situation to them, and how it was a misunderstanding between the DC's office and their office, and they explained that they wanted to investigate to make sure I wasn't any kind of danger to anyone...which W had already told them that I was not (even though she's told family and friends that she thought I was for some unknown reason).
I explained to the constables that the CTW was actually going to violate my parental access rights, and they understood, and advised that I get an attorney. I signed the warning, got my copy, and started wondering how this happened.
I had assumed she was told by her friend who is a peace officer to do this, because they've been pushing for her to leave me for a long time. Apparently, that wasn't the case. BUT, she did listen to bad advice from the constables who weren't aware of the standing court orders in place from the time she filed the divorce stating that you can't prevent access to children if there are no orders in place preventing that access.
I still don't know what caused her to pick up S from the sitter and I don't know what the panic is all about. But at least I know that the CTW was ill-informed advice that she chose to follow, and now there's a mess.
I honestly don't know anything else about the situation...that's all I have, but I hope that this makes a bit more sense. I was pretty upset the last couple of days when I wrote this originally, because it felt like W and her friends were trying to find ways to trap me. I still think that they are. But I hope this makes it a bit clearer as to what went on.
Ok yes this was more coherent. Mac get a L that's all you can do at this point. I assume the CTW states that you can't contact her.
The CTW only says that I can't go on the property.
The "contact" part is from a text she sent me requesting that I do not contact her in any way. I showed that text to the constable and asked if this was sufficient notice where if I DID contact her if she could take action, he said that it was. That would constitute "unwanted contact".
I'm definitely going to get a L.
What I've learned is that the DB information, and all of the advice I've received here is correct: I can't trust a WW, because they are acting purely on emotion with no logic or reason.
I know that's going to make it hard for me emotionally, because I will be restricted most likely from seeing S.
But I also know that in a legal sense, it works out in my favor providing that I don't violate the CTW (believe me, I won't because I've been staying away from her anyway), and that I don't give her reason to do more things. I plan to not contact her at all for any reason in any way. If she contacts me, I'll make a non-emergency call to the PD just to document that she has asked me to not contact her, and now she's trying to contact me...just to cover my a$$.
As for the cop friend, once I have the L, I still plan to pursue the information request and press criminal charges if need be. That's a separate fight from the D, and I'm well within my rights to do so.
In the meantime, the ball is no longer in anyone's court. We're now playing in separate courts...for her, the D. For me, the legal realm where I have to keep myself from getting screwed over.
I'm well aware that this is "over" as long as she continues down this path. That's her choice. I hope she eventually figures out that emotional reactions will cause more harm than good, and that these steps actually don't hurt me in the D as much as she thinks it does...it hurts her.
Still going to do no contact, GAL, etc. Just because I know those things are good for me.
As a side note...just to vent...I really do hope she's okay. I know I have to keep pushing ahead, and I know that I have to stand my ground and defend myself legally. But the part of me that still cares about her really worries about her mental health, and I hope she figures herself out before it's too late. I know she's not emotionally stable right now, but I've done all I can do (giving her space, not pressuring her, etc.). The rest is up to her, and I sincerely hope she comes out of this okay. Because in court, I can't afford to NOT fight hard at this point...and I know that's going to hurt her...and I really, really don't want to be in this position...but she kind of put us here. But she's still my S's mother, and I still care about her. Even though right now, I have to set that to the side. Venting over.
bm my only advice is to be careful how far you are willing to go in court if you hedge any desire to enter reconcile again. IE don't burn bridges. I know you don't want to get "screwed". By when i comes out of this fog, and likely she will at some point, she will be more likely to want to R if you were gracious throughout the legal proceedings. Think about what will make a bigger impression.
I am definitely taking that into consideration. I don't want to have to go for custody. I know that would hurt her terribly. But I also know she's making decisions and taking actions that really would lead the court to question whether or not she's capable of making good choices. That worries me for the health and wellbeing of S.
I don't think she's a bad person at heart. I don't think she's a horrible mother. But I do know that she's irrational, illogical, and has made some seriously questionable decisions, some of which may seem minor, but could actually affect S.
As a parent, what do you do? The answer is protect S. But how do you do that without causing more emotional trauma to either?
This is a very hard place to be. I hope that she decides this is a bad idea on her own, because I really can't decide that for her.
I just hope. That's all I can do. Hope and prepare for a war and pray it doesn't come to it.
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