Today has been ok but a couple of things are getting me down.
I seem to have hurt my wrist climbing on Sunday and have some residual thumb numbness and wrist pain - afraid it might be carpal tunnel. Not being able to climb for an extended time would put a crimp in my goals and my GAL.
Also, I checked the shared bank account today and the W spent another 1,200 on her credit card this month - 3,000 in the last 3 months. That is certainly not obscene, but I have no clue what she is spending it on - I guess its none of my business, but it is our shared money. My impulse is to ask her about it since she makes less than 2 grand a month, this kind of spending is not sustainable once she gets her own place. But, I also recognize that this impulse comes from a) my own frugality and b) residual desire to control her behavior. I feel like asking her about it would just feel like more control to her and push her further away. Again, she is not acting crazy at all, and this is hardly a spending spree at Tiffanys.
Should I just let it go and continue to monitor?
previous thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2791955#Post2791955
I am a lot like you. I am very frugal by nature, and my wife is more spend thrift. $1200 a month seems excessive to me. However, you did mention a key phrase: on her credit card. Is this a joint card or is her card solely? If it is a joint card then you have every right to ask about it, and even to check out the charges online.
If it is her card solely, then just let it be.
My wife accused me of being controlling with spending on BD. And there was a bit of truth to it. I 180'd on it, however if I were to see excessive spending I would at least ask her about it, in a non-controlling, non-accusatory, and non-threatening manner.
The card is hers. She has stopped spending on our joint cards. (of course all the bills of our house where she lives are paid on the joint cards).
But the payment comes off out of our joint checking account.
I think I am probably going to let it lie for now. It seems really excessive to me, but maybe she is buying tickets to go home and visit family again. I just don't know.
The card is hers. She has stopped spending on our joint cards. (of course all the bills of our house where she lives are paid on the joint cards).
But the payment comes off out of our joint checking account.
I think I am probably going to let it lie for now. It seems really excessive to me, but maybe she is buying tickets to go home and visit family again. I just don't know.
if it is out of the ordinary I would at least discuss it.
Davide
This spending has to be tackled before it becomes a pattern and the courts mandate it.
You are going to be separate, I think you need an integral fin arrangement. Otherwise it will become an open sore. Been there worn the T-shirt.
V
Ok.
I really don't want to bring this up when I am packing up and saying goodbye on Saturday. I want that to be light and positive.
Should I do it now (before Saturday) or wait until I am on the road?
Also, what is an "integral fin" arrangement?
Our financial situation is really good as we have both been very frugal in the past and our mortgage is really cheap (small place bought at the right time). I am a teacher so I don't make that much, and my wife makes less, but with no kids it has been easy to save. If we were to split our joint accounts W would have plenty more money to spend if she wanted to even though she doesnt make that much.
We had originally agreed to let each other know if we were going to spend more than a couple hundred dollars on anything. I can't imagine how she could spend that much money without getting something more expensive.
I really dont want to push to separate our accounts, or look controlling.
"W, can we talk about finances for a moment?"
"Last month you spent 1,300 dollars on your credit card, and have spent 3,000 in the last 3 months. I am just wondering if that is temporary because it seems unsustainably high given how much money you are making."
"Can we come to an agreement about spending?"
I definitely need some help with this conversation as I feel like I am just going to fall back into controlling, judgemental behavior.
It is a fine line to walk. And since I have the same tendency I am going to let someone else field this one.
D - When my W moved out we sat down at the kitchen table and discussed a financial arrangement. What bills each of us would pay for and additional money I would give her each month because I make 3 times what she makes. I did not want to control her with money which is why I gave her money each month so she could live. If she wanted out then lets sit down and see how we can make this happen. I also told her she needed to open her own checking/saving account and have her pay checks auto deposited. We split our savings account in 1/2 and I took away the credit card from her that was in my name that has a very large limit on it. She then opened one up in her own name with a small limit on it so she could use in emergencies.
I know you are not going to want to do this but you need to protect yourself financially first and you may need to make this happen before you leave town. You can have the conversation, and she can agree to it but there is nothing stopping her from not following through once you leave.
To me it is a matter of trust and personally I don't think you can do it especially with you being out of town for so long.
My W already has a credit card in her own name. That is what she is making nearly all of her purchases on. That's easy.
I am loathe to make her open up her own account and deposit her paycheck there. I feel like this is just pushing her further away. We still share phone bills, gym bills, netflix, you name it and we share it.
Perhaps this is naivete, and I am prepared for 2x4s galore - but despite BD, despite this spending, I trust W. I trust her not to go crazy with money.
Do I offer to pay her money each month so she can live on her own comfortably? I am a teacher and don't make that much, but I could afford to give her a couple hundred dollars a month. But wouldn't that be just another form of pressure?
Man, I am confused with this stuff.
It's a dice roll and ultimately your call...and you are already having concerns about her spending. I gave my wife money because I did not want her to stay just because of money. That was controlling to me....
So my parents think I should push to split our joint accounts entirely. A goox friend suggested just creating new separate accounts for separate expenses going forward and taking a fixed amount of our joint accounts and leave the rest. The fixed amount would be so that we could cover initial expenses especially for my W. I dont think I need to kick her off my credit cards as she already isn't using them.
The key to me is framing this as giving her more freedom from me, not me trying to control her. Right now I can see what she is spending and that is not healthy for either of us.
Thoughts?
D - That is one reason why I told her to split accounts. I did not want to know what she was spending and where she was spending it at. The budget she had was enough to pay for anything that she needed.
When my EW told me she wanted a D and then 3 weeks later she told me she wanted to move out in 3 months. I told her that I could not go on, living in the same house with her, just going through the motions. I knew our R would get even worse. I pushed her to move out sooner and seperate our accounts and in 3 weeks she was gone.
It was the best decision I ever made and if we ever recon in the future I know taking that action probably saved us.
I agree with your parents.
My W already has a credit card in her own name. That is what she is making nearly all of her purchases on. That's easy.
I am loathe to make her open up her own account and deposit her paycheck there. I feel like this is just pushing her further away. We still share phone bills, gym bills, netflix, you name it and we share it.
Perhaps this is naivete, and I am prepared for 2x4s galore - but despite BD, despite this spending, I trust W. I trust her not to go crazy with money.
Do I offer to pay her money each month so she can live on her own comfortably? I am a teacher and don't make that much, but I could afford to give her a couple hundred dollars a month. But wouldn't that be just another form of pressure?
Man, I am confused with this stuff.
I am actually going to say the exact opposite. My main core skill is finance.
So unless you make arrangements which are fair to both of you this may blow up in your face. You will be living apart, each paying your own bills. And not knowing what she is doing with money will drive you crazy. J9 has it spot on, once you are apart this could get acrimonious. Agree a good fair position now before separation and a start date. Agree a maximum on her credit card after that she refunds.
Once you have that steady then it will remove much acrimony.
It could get awful and cost a lot of L fees. Integral means you include everything, you discuss what happens if either loses their job or gets promoted.
This is a strong masculine leading position. It has to be done.
Fall short of making it a separation agreement and agree neither of you has taken legal advice and that it can be modified. Find a spreadsheet you can copy with all the expenses on it.
Her credit card and salary can be from her account and you agree an extra amount to steady the ship one way or another depending on life circumstances.
The last thing you need or want is battles with Ls on finances.
I think you can both be reasonable, it's a good place to validate, set boundaries, make agreements and stick to them.
V
D - When my W moved out we sat down at the kitchen table and discussed a financial arrangement. What bills each of us would pay for and additional money I would give her each month because I make 3 times what she makes. I did not want to control her with money which is why I gave her money each month so she could live. If she wanted out then lets sit down and see how we can make this happen. I also told her she needed to open her own checking/saving account and have her pay checks auto deposited. We split our savings account in 1/2 and I took away the credit card from her that was in my name that has a very large limit on it. She then opened one up in her own name with a small limit on it so she could use in emergencies.
I know you are not going to want to do this but you need to protect yourself financially first and you may need to make this happen before you leave town. You can have the conversation, and she can agree to it but there is nothing stopping her from not following through once you leave.
To me it is a matter of trust and personally I don't think you can do it especially with you being out of town for so long.
I really admire this J9. It sets a framework.
Hanging on to joint is controlling.
V
V and Joseph,
Thank you for this advice. This is very important for me to hear. I really don't want to know what she is spending money on, nor should I have a right to know. Separating will make that easier.
Did you think my framing of the issue above was fair?
I am actually going to say the exact opposite. My main core skill is finance.
So unless you make arrangements which are fair to both of you this may blow up in your face. You will be living apart, each paying your own bills. And not knowing what she is doing with money will drive you crazy.
Agreed.
J9 has it spot on, once you are apart this could get acrimonious. Agree a good fair position now before separation and a start date.
What do you mean by before separation and a start date? Wouldn't it start now, going forward? or should i push it going back to when I left the house?
Agree a maximum on her credit card after that she refunds.
If she has her own card already why should I control her maximum? She never carries a balance and pays it off in full each month.
Once you have that steady then it will remove much acrimony.
It could get awful and cost a lot of L fees. Integral means you include everything, you discuss what happens if either loses their job or gets promoted.
My job is set for the next year. What sort of arrangement would I make if she quit her job? She doesnt want me to support her. She wants to be independent.
This is a strong masculine leading position. It has to be done.
Fall short of making it a separation agreement and agree neither of you has taken legal advice and that it can be modified. Find a spreadsheet you can copy with all the expenses on it.
The only shared expenses we have are minimal - 50 dollar phone bill, 100 dollar monthly gym membership, and I am on her dental for 9 dollars a month. Those things can be split up easily. The only other thing we share are the expenses on the house (mortgage et al.) That is a whole nother matter since we are both on the deed, but neither of us is ready to sell it yet. I assumed that I would pay those since I will be living there.
Her credit card and salary can be from her account and you agree an extra amount to steady the ship one way or another depending on life circumstances.
If I am giving her half (or whatever the percentage) of the savings, that should be more than enough to tide her over for a year or more, no? Again, she wants independence from me - she is not looking for spousal support.
The last thing you need or want is battles with Ls on finances.
I think you can both be reasonable, it's a good place to validate, set boundaries, make agreements and stick to them.
You are probably right. We are both very reasonable and conscientious people, I dont think this should cause a big problem. It does terrify me though - 1. Because I feel like it is pushing her further away (I should forget that thought since she is already gone, I know, I know) and 2. Because I am afraid this will look like more control to her.
V and Joseph,
Thank you for this advice. This is very important for me to hear. I really don't want to know what she is spending money on, nor should I have a right to know. Separating will make that easier.
Did you think my framing of the issue above was fair?
What is fair is what fits your criteria. If you are asking if it's reasonable that's different. But what you and W agree is correct.
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I am actually going to say the exact opposite. My main core skill is finance.
So unless you make arrangements which are fair to both of you this may blow up in your face. You will be living apart, each paying your own bills. And not knowing what she is doing with money will drive you crazy.
Agreed.
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J9 has it spot on, once you are apart this could get acrimonious. Agree a good fair position now before separation and a start date.
What do you mean by before separation and a start date? Wouldn't it start now, going forward? or should i push it going back to when I left the house?
I mean legal S or start of D. As soon as possible.
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Agree a maximum on her credit card after that she refunds.
If she has her own card already why should I control her maximum? She never carries a balance and pays it off in full each month.
If I read it correctly this pays off from a joint account. Limits can be upped too. Beware a spree on joint funds.
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Once you have that steady then it will remove much acrimony.
It could get awful and cost a lot of L fees. Integral means you include everything, you discuss what happens if either loses their job or gets promoted.
My job is set for the next year. What sort of arrangement would I make if she quit her job? She doesnt want me to support her. She wants to be independent.
Mind reading. Until you asknow you don't know. Perhaps study other travel. Think it through. No assuming, listen with your two ears.
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This is a strong masculine leading position. It has to be done.
Fall short of making it a separation agreement and agree neither of you has taken legal advice and that it can be modified. Find a spreadsheet you can copy with all the expenses on it.
The only shared expenses we have are minimal - 50 dollar phone bill, 100 dollar monthly gym membership, and I am on her dental for 9 dollars a month. Those things can be split up easily. The only other thing we share are the expenses on the house (mortgage et al.) That is a whole nother matter since we are both on the deed, but neither of us is ready to sell it yet. I assumed that I would pay those since I will be living there.
Do your budgets. I think you will be surprised how much two households cost. You are assuming discuss it. If you do will you get extra equity going forward? Is she buying would you get a share of that. Do you need a valuation so the increase in equity is yours from now On?
It is controlling if you are assuming and saying how it is. Discuss and agree it with W.
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Her credit card and salary can be from her account and you agree an extra amount to steady the ship one way or another depending on life circumstances.
If I am giving her half (or whatever the percentage) of the savings, that should be more than enough to tide her over for a year or more, no? Again, she wants independence from me - she is not looking for spousal support.
Careful, if her half goes then all that's left is yours. A judge might further split that.
Once again, you haven't discussed it. You are assuming. Discuss it, listen to W views. Set a fair solution. You are mind reading. Stop. Until you ask how do you know?
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The last thing you need or want is battles with Ls on finances.
I think you can both be reasonable, it's a good place to validate, set boundaries, make agreements and stick to them.
You are probably right. We are both very reasonable and conscientious people, I dont think this should cause a big problem. It does terrify me though - 1. Because I feel like it is pushing her further away (I should forget that thought since she is already gone, I know, I know) and 2. Because I am afraid this will look like more control to her.
not doing this will push her further away. And if you do this, listen validate and agree fairness it is LESS controlling.
V
V,
Thanks again for your detailed responses.
I don't think my W has any idea about where she is going to live yet (still up to 2 months away) and I havent asked for obvious reasons. Should we be coming up together with a fair budget for her?
Yeah her credit card draws from a joint account, obviously that would be one of the 1st changes. Once that happens, the limit is her problem.
I will ask about the job situation. and the house.
I am most confused about the splitting of the accounts. We have a good bit of savings in our joint account, I thought that you had advocated for splitting that (in some fashion we can agree to) and opening separate accounts. But in your most recent comment you tell me to be careful with that. I'm not sure what I am supposed to do with that money then. Both of us need some of it to live until our direct deposits catch up in the new accounts. My friend suggested putting 5k each or something like that in the new accounts. Honestly, I would prefer to ask her to sign a release taking her name off of the joint accounts since we have so many automatic withdrawals. That could be more complicated, though.
I just want to make sure that I have thought this through. I really need/want to talk to her about this tomorrow if possible.
D-IMO, you need to set a budiet that is fair for the both of you and then make adjustments depending on how you both are progressing. A few months after my EW moved out we had to revise ours because she was asking me for more money.
Joseph,
You mean I should work with her to set a budget for her? I was leaving that all up to her, assuming that it would come out of her salary - obviously assuming that is a mistake (NO ASSUMPTIONS!). But I dont want to control her at all. If she says that she doesnt want to share a budget with me, that it will all come out of her salary, shouldnt I accept that? I dont want to control what kind of apartment or room she moves into - if she wants to spend more on that and less on other things, is that my business?
I get that we should start new accounts for each of us and use separate credit cards (which we are basically doing).
I get that we should talk about the house and how we will handle mortgage payments going forward.
I get that I should ask about what happens if she quits her job.
I still don't understand what we should do about our joint accounts. I don't know if we should split them, take a bit out of them to start new accounts and have some wiggle room, or if I should give her money monthly out of them.
D.....my ex and I sat down and went through each of our net monthly incomes and separated each bill and who was going to pay for what. What our monthly ent money would be, gas, groceries, etc. We both new hoe much the other person would have left over at the end of the month.
My ex could not afford to move out and be on her own without my help. So either I told her no, you are not moving because you can t afford to or I say let s sit down and talk about how we make this happen because I can t go on like this and if you want to be free I will st you free.
Can your wife make it on her own with rent, the bills split 50/50, food, gas money, ent etc.?
Can your wife make it on her own with getting money from you? I put my wife s budget together for her and she agreed to it. My wife would not have been able to move out without me financially supporting her. But if she wanted out I wasn t going to force her stay for that reason.
Posts combined and restored - Cadet
Thanks Cadet for restoring that!
So I am set to talk to her on the phone at 5:45 this evening. I'm going to try to go to the gym beforehand to work off some nervous energy and distract my mind.
I think I just need to be as transparent with her as possible. I dont think she wants me to support her at all, but I need to ask her about that. If she is frugal she should be able to make it on her own, she makes an okay salary and our city cost of living is not crazy high. If she doesnt want me to support her, then I really shouldnt have a say in her budget. She will probably need some money from our savings to get started (buy car, put down payment on apartment, pay car insurance) and we should discuss that. We should discuss the few shared bills we have. We should also discuss the credit cards and the house.
I am still not sure about dividing up the savings. I am open to opinions on that part.
If she can make it on her own after you split up the joint bills then I agree with your assessment. If she can make it on her own but you pick up more of the bills then that could work to.
I took on the majority of our bills and ended up giving my EW an additional $300/mth. I could have split the bills 50/50, made her pay for the car she was driving, etc. but then I would have had to give her more money. So we agreed that I would pay more of the bills and give her less money. We each had the same spending money allowance each week, the same grocery allowance, etc. That way one person didn't feel like they were getting the hose job.
We also split our saving account in 1/2 at the time as well. I kept bank statement of the before and after for my records.
We are now D'd and the arrangement during this time period had no bearing on what was put into our D decree.
Thanks Joseph.
Anyone else with advice? We talk in 1.5 hours.
When I brought up the subject to my EW she was more than willing to split up our finances.....you might find out that the conversation will be easier than you think.
TBH......if you are separated IMO you must do it. I had no desire to know my EW's whereabouts, what she was going, what time of night she was doing it, etc.
Technically the only things she paid for was her rent, living expenses and cell phone bill. I paid for everything else.
Ok. So we talked and it was fine. I feel much better for having had the conversation with her. I am sure that I did things that people here will tell me are naive, but I trust her.
The conversation itself was a bit awkward but I led about it being a good idea to separate our finances some more so that we can both be more independent.
We are both going to open new separate bank accounts which will get our direct deposits and tie to our credit cards. I am going to take my wife off my cards, so they will be just for me. We are going to take 5k or so each out of our joint savings and put them into the new accounts so that we can both live off that until the direct deposits get going - and that way she will have some money to start her new life. We are going to keep the joint accounts for now, but they will only be used for paying the mortgage, house upkeep, and dog expenses. We both have debit cards for that. I know that is dangerous, because she could just walk away with all that money but a) I trust her b) I will monitor and c) our equity in our house is worth more than all of our savings.
We are going to separate our phone plans and I am going to continue to pay for amazon and netflix but she will drop off (she didn't want them.) I will pay the gym bill but she will pay me half each month (it is a lot cheaper as a family membership).
She is planning on living off of her salary alone so I felt no right to give her a budget, she can work that out herself. I asked what happens if she quits her job, and she said that she guesses she will have to find a new one!
As of now the mortgage on the house will keep coming out of the joint account, rather than our personal ones. Once I start living there, I'm not sure if I should take that on out of my account or not. I tried to talk about the value of the house, etc.. but didn't get very far.
There were two strange moments - I asked if she had almost got a car yet, given that I am taking the only family one on Saturday. She evidently has done nothing about it, saying that she was focused more on finding a place to live (although she has two more months in the house.) I reiterated the offer that my boss had made (he has an extra car for a daughter who isn't old enough to drive yet), and this time she said that she would take it if possible. So now, I have to ask my boss, two days before leaving, if that is still a possibility. It's a bit awkward, but he offered, so I'll at least inquire.
Second, she asked me if I wanted her around while I packed up on Saturday. This is strange only because she had previously asked me in an email if I was okay saying goodbye in person on Saturday and I had replied, sure. It seems strange that she would forget that. Or maybe she thought I had changed my mind.
Overall, the conversation went well. I was assertive and cheerful and listened to her thoughts, although she was pretty much willing to go along with anything I proposed. I kept it as upbeat as possible and stressed that I just wanted transparency so that no one got hurt or resentful. I am pretty happy with how it went, although, of course, she is still hell-bent on getting away from me.
Next step... saying goodbye in person on Saturday!
Davide- sounds like things went pretty good. Just prepare yourself for Saturday. Be upbeat and positive. Dress well and wear cologne so you can appeal to both eyes and nose. No R talks and stay calm and be the lighthouse. I know you got this! We are all cheering for you. Stay Well!
Looks like you handled that really well. I second what LoneWlf said. Look smart, upbeat, and stay positive. You got this!
Thanks!
I actually just got back to the house. I stopped over there to drop the car off and drop off some items that I took home from school for the end of the year.
I told her I was coming, but when I knocked on the front door and called out, she didn't answer. The dog came running in from the backyard to say hi to me, and I played with her for a bit so I know she knew I was there. So I knocked on her office door which was mostly closed and said hi. She looked like she was almost at the point of tears then, and at a couple of other moments. I on the other hand was upbeat and chipper, with a fresh haircut and shave.
We ended up talking for nearly half an hour on the couch. Mainly about bills, banking, her apartment situation. She didn't really offer up too much about herself but she asked about me. We talked about her getting a new car or just renting one when she needs it in the coming months. She was peeking at my new wrist tattoo so I showed her. She asked me about my weight loss and how I was feeling. It was all very light and relaxed, probably more on my end than hers.
At the end I gave her a hug and she remarked on just how skinny I was because she could feel my ribs.
It was really good on a number of levels. It was good to see her again, especially in advance of Saturday so that wont carry quite so much weight. I was also really happy with the way that I carried it. It wasn't really an act, I felt good and confident. I also felt happy just because I was talking with her. Its probably not great for my detachment, but I left feeling really good despite no signs of her resolve wavering. She did seem impressed with my physique and attitude changes.
2 more days til the road trip!
I am glad it went well....my EW was actually excited when we sat down and split our finances. Over time I realized that any conversation that was about me embracing or working more towards her independence was welcomed with open arms.
V,
Thanks again for your detailed responses.
I don't think my W has any idea about where she is going to live yet (still up to 2 months away) and I havent asked for obvious reasons. Should we be coming up together with a fair budget for her?
Yeah her credit card draws from a joint account, obviously that would be one of the 1st changes. Once that happens, the limit is her problem.
I will ask about the job situation. and the house.
I am most confused about the splitting of the accounts. We have a good bit of savings in our joint account, I thought that you had advocated for splitting that (in some fashion we can agree to) and opening separate accounts. But in your most recent comment you tell me to be careful with that. I'm not sure what I am supposed to do with that money then. Both of us need some of it to live until our direct deposits catch up in the new accounts. My friend suggested putting 5k each or something like that in the new accounts. Honestly, I would prefer to ask her to sign a release taking her name off of the joint accounts since we have so many automatic withdrawals. That could be more complicated, though.t
I just want to make sure that I have thought this through. I really need/want to talk to her about this tomorrow if possible.
The splitting of capital is a different matter to that of income.
One thing you require legal advice on. If you split capital and liquid assets then you have to make sure that it sticks if she spends her portion.
So the splitting is fair but that should stick. All you are doing is advancing capital to either of you.
You don't want a judge to come along later and say, oh look one half is spent now split the other.
Is that clearer?
V
Handled like a champion.
Now she is waking up to you a little. A very little.
But you acted like a leader. Please learn from this, couples check in on their finances in this way, they work as a team.
It's very masculine to be head of the household in this way, be pleased.
180
V
...I was also really happy with the way that I carried it. ....
This, this is what it is all about. Detached from the response and feeling good about your behavior. Good job!
Thanks V and Joseph and Maika and LWolf!
I would not be feeling this good if not for all of your support.
Why is it that every time I meet with my wife I end up feeling energize and positive afterward? She has never been less than consistent and resolute in her desire to separate when we meet in person. Is it just that I enjoy being in her presence? Is it because I feel like I have handled the last few interactions really well? Is it just a lack of detachment. I guess I shouldnt really let my mood get affected even in a positive way, but it is hard to stop.
Looking back over my sitch I remembered feeling that same with my EW and I think it had to do with making a connection. Maybe kind of like Stockholm Syndrome......
Mentioning the fact that I will be documenting my trip on my (new) instagram account when we meet on Saturday - that would be pursuity, no? I would love to mention it in passing, but I dont want to push it either. Thoughts? (If I dont mention it she most likely will never see it)
Mentioning the fact that I will be documenting my trip on my (new) instagram account when we meet on Saturday - that would be pursuity, no? I would love to mention it in passing, but I dont want to push it either. Thoughts? (If I dont mention it she most likely will never see it)
I would mention it, saying you are going to really enjoy the break and time out, and will be recording it for posterity.
Posting on instagram will be great for you anyway, lots of positive feedback. It doesn't matter if she doesn't see it now or as you go. But she will see it.
Go have a great time and keep in touch with those who matter to you. This is a special time for you, a pattern interrupt.
V
Thanks V.
Absolutely. I am doing it to share with friends, not for her. And I am really looking forward to the trip at this point. I am meeting up with so many family members, good friends, old acquaintances, etc... The first week and a half I will be almost entirely with friends and family - a great support network, away from all this.
I am a little nervous about camping out in the car or in whatever locations I can find in the national parks (no reservations!) but it will work out. I would like to not fully lose touch with W over this time, but definitely pull back.
Phew... Any last words of advice from the sage heads at DB?
Tomorrow is d-day (departure day) as I say goodbye to the W (and dog) and take the car for the start of an epic 2 month road trip.
I am going to ask the W to take a picture of me with the fully loaded car since I am going to be documenting the whole trip on instagram.
My only fear is that she has some sort of goodbye letter for me, since she mentioned that previously. I am certainly not going to ask her any R questions. Positive, chipper, friendly, looking forward to the trip. I'll try to validate but she really doesnt share much with me. I saw some motivational quotes up on the wall in the house last time I was there, so I know she is trying to take care of herself.
Ok... off for one last bike ride and then to pack up out of this [censored]-hole apartment.
Thanks guys and gals!
keep us posted if you can connect to internet
So I am out of town. Just spent the first night with an old college friend and his family. Good times!
In terms of the goodbyes with the W. It was a bit awkward. When I arrived at the house, she was still asleep. But, evidently, the dog had opened the door to the bedroom, so it was wide open. Seeing her sleep peacefully and beautifully was tough. I closed the door to give her privacy. The dog was making a racket running around on the hardwoods with her claws, but she kept on sleeping.
I had basically packed up 95 percent of my things when she finally came out. She helped look for a couple of things and then made us both some coffee and we sat on the couch to talk. Again, I was positive and upbeat and steered the conversation to light-hearted fare. She did mention Anthony Bourdains suicide since we both enjoyed his show, but that was it in terms of downbeat conversation. I asked her about her climbing, since that is what she is most passionate about, and we talked about that. I have a little carpal tunnel from climbing and she got out her massage books to look up what to do, and ended up giving me a splint.
At one point she pointed out my new shirt and said how nice it looked on me, and then noticed I had new shoes and complimented them as well. When I told her that I was posting my trip pics on instagram, her utter surprise was evident in her big eyes and she said "You, what?" She clearly didnt expect that from me.
Later, she asked me a bit more about my trip and I told her the thing I was most looking forward to was the little mini-reunion with former students who really meant a lot to me but whom I have not seen in a decade. I think, maybe, I was getting a bit emotional as I talked about, but, in any case, W completely lost it as her eyes filled to the brims and she started sobbing. I asked her if it was ok to give her a hug (I did make a little screw up by using our pet name for one another, which I have assiduously avoided). So I gave her a hug, and she held on extra long and then squeezed extra hard, and then told me again how damn skinny I am right now. After that, she took my hand and started massaging it (for the carpal tunnel).
When I went outside to leave, she took a picture for my instagram, and then was walking around checking the tires, making sure everything was okay. We gave each other another shorter hug, and I took off.
Again, I think that I handled everything in the way that I wanted to, except for the one slip up. I showed her the man that I want to be in the meeting, a man happy with his life and positive in his outlook. Her desire to move out still hasnt wavered, and I validated her in that. This time though, I was struck by the sadness of the situation, and the possible finality of the goodbye as I drove away. It all sort of hit me on my way out of town and I felt like I had used up all of my strength to get through the encounter and that I was just wasted from the effort. There wasnt the same feeling of positivity like after the previous meetings. I wasnt upset or unhappy with how it went at all, just sad and anxious about the future.
Now that I am at my friends house, I am GALing and already moving past those feelings. I am sure that the warmth of friendship and family and the benefit of distance will help me further detach.
My one silly question to end this with: W went into the car and cleared out all of her cds (music is important to her). However, she left her favorite cd in the player. Would it be pursuity to mail it back to her?
Like a champ.
Yes it would.
You might 'find' it sonetime though.
V
Tough night, tough start to the day.
Last night we played a dice game, and when my friends's wife brought out the notepad to mark the score and rules, she noted that they hadn't played in years, that the last time that they played was with the two of them, me and W. That just started up the memory train.
This morning I got up and went for an hour long walk, listening to a podcast, just to get moving. I kept getting flooded with beautiful memories of the two of us together. So much of the marriage was so good, and there was so much love - love like I have never otherwise experienced in my life. I started bawling as I was walking down the secluded path. It just hit me - how good I had it, what a beautiful thing it was that somehow got destroyed, and I feel like the finality of it being over is hitting me even harder now that I have left town.
I am getting worried more and more about the trip. All this time alone is hard to deal with. At home I had work, my commute on bike, my exercise, regular time with friends, a routine that was strange but comforting. Now, I just have acres and acres of time to think about things. Plus both of my wrists are hurting with carpal tunnel syndrome and I don't know if I can climb for a while...
Just down. I know this is the roller coaster, but it is hard not to get motion sick, and hard to realize that this part of the ride will end.
Hi Davide, I read your thread this morning and have been worrying about all the same stuff about separating finances with my W. Ended up talking to my W about it this morning at breakfast (among many other divorce-related topics) and found that we were pretty much in agreement with what ought to be done. Worrying about these conversations has been more stressful than actually having them, I think mostly because of a belief I have that just having them at all is so wrong and goes against what I believe my marriage should be. Idunno, it's hard for me to let go of that belief even though I know my W doesn't share it.
I wanted to thank you for being here and let you know I appreciated your thread as I thought about what to do with my own sitch.
I am at the "beach" with my parents. It feels good, but I have only ever been in this house with the W, so there are still memories (and a photo of all of us together!). Still, it is good and safe and relaxing.
I have been posting daily pics of the trip to facebook and instagram and getting positive feedback from folks, which is nice. I also have been busy setting up a schedule to see everyone in NYC in just 4 days which is a bit crazy.
One thing that draws my attention is that my Ws best friend who lives in another country (and who I hardly ever speak to) is liking every one of my instagram photos, and now even Ws sister liked the most recent photo of me and my parents. Its just strange how interconnected our lives still are. I am trying not to wonder if she is seeing the pictures, but it is hard. (I know, I know, detach, detach, detach!)
All in all, things are well. A little calmer, a little more peaceful today. I did an hour of yoga and am about to head out for 20 miles on the bike.
Good, safe, relaxing, peaceful, calmer...all positive for you to recharge yourself Davide!
This morning I got up and went for an hour long walk, listening to a podcast, just to get moving. I kept getting flooded with beautiful memories of the two of us together. So much of the marriage was so good, and there was so much love - love like I have never otherwise experienced in my life. I started bawling as I was walking down the secluded path. It just hit me - how good I had it, what a beautiful thing it was that somehow got destroyed, and I feel like the finality of it being over is hitting me even harder now that I have left town.
Podcasts are awesome way to unwind, learn, and motivate yourself. I really got into them after BD and it's been really fantastic for my own personal growth and sanity. I am so glad to hear that you bawled your eyes out man. Shows that you didn't bottle up your feelings, but just let them out and allowed the body to respond accordingly. I know that whenever I have done that, it has been so cathartic and also helped me move on to the next stage in my healing journey. Continue to understand and approach your feelings with curiosity and let them have their time.
I am getting worried more and more about the trip. All this time alone is hard to deal with. At home I had work, my commute on bike, my exercise, regular time with friends, a routine that was strange but comforting. Now, I just have acres and acres of time to think about things
Yes, having tons of time can allow your mind to wander and fixate. I did different things to just get my mind off those thoughts. Whenever I realized I was getting fixated, I would just listen to a podcast, go do something active, or just put on some stand up comedy on netflix. Anything to get your mind focused on something else. After a while you can then actively start reframing your thoughts towards other things because you've been able to distract yourself. It then comes naturally and you're able to let that thought pass much quickly.
Don't beat yourself up if it's a slow going on this. It does take time and as long as you're proactive about your thoughts and being mindful, it will get better over time. It honestly took me 10 months after BD to get to a place where I think less and less of her and the MR. That is also partly because I am excited about my future and my goals and wanting to grow more as a better person.
I don't know if I mentioned this to you, but on one podcast I heard something really awesome. At least it was for me because I hadn't thought about my life in that way. The speaker said to imagine you're at your funeral and someone is about to read your eulogy. What do you want to be remembered as? How will your kids remember you? your colleagues?
I wrote that down and that gives me a good goalpost to achieve. Gives me direction in my life and how I want to hold myself in this world. Also gave me the ability to have a long term vision rather than just being in the moment. I also realized that I had long term vision about all the trauma that I've experienced in the past and I could drudge that up any time to justify what I was doing. Why couldn't I do that for the future and imagine my future self and use that as justification for what I am doing in the present. It was a revelation in the sense that I realized I already had the skillset to do it, but I was applying it in the wrong direction. So, now I am correcting that.
Anyways, not sure if any of this helps, but just wanted to share how I am thinking and the tools that have been good for me.
Cherish the memories of this trip as well. Plan to look back at it in ten years and say that it was a defining moment for you because you focused on your growth as a person.
Davide- Embrace the trip (your journey). Embrace you friends and family (your support system), Embrace the experiences(time for reflection and re-evaluation), Embrace the new YOU ( the new mindset of seeing difficult times as an opportunity for STRENGTH and GROWTH). Safe travels - Be strong - Stay Well!!
Thanks LoneWlf and Maika, You guys have been pillars of support for me throughout this process.
I wonder if I should get on some meds for the anxiety. It really is not depression at this point, just anxiety. Generally it is a low level anxiety present throughout the day, but at times it just pops out and can become uncontrollable. My brother-in-law is a psychiatrist and I will be spending time with them in the coming days, so I will talk to him.
For me right now I think short-term goals and planning is the way to go. Thinking about the long-term is more anxiety provoking because I still havent fully detached and still have trouble moving into a future that doesnt include a R with the W. I have no kids either. I do see the value in what you are doing, and I would like to be able to get there at some point, but honestly I dont think i am ready for it yet.
Don't sweat it man! Take it at your pace and know which tools and thinking processes will help you. Short terms goals and planning is all good. Helps you build confidence once you achieve them. The long term will come when you get out of the acute pain over time.
Yeh, no harm in talking to a professional about anxiety and depression. They can help you at least understand it and give you good tools.
As I said, cherish the trip
Hi Davide, It is inevitable that you will find a void when you do things that are out of your routine but have been special to you and your W in the past. Chalk out a plan for the rest of your vaca, just simple things that you can do to keep yourself occupied. The less time you have for yourself the better it is, just surround yourself with your family who are there for you unconditionally. Is there anything you have wanted to do for your parents or family and havent had a chance before? May be this is the right time.
For me, my small children leave almost no time for myself so although GAL is limited I have no haunting thoughts while I am with them but anything I do while I am on my own and remember the past times it is always with a pang of pain. Like all other feelings experience the pain too, this is true grief before you can let her really go.
And the way you handled saying bye to her before your trip was super cool, just know while you are in turmoil here she is in no la-la land either and your DBing is getting her really confused.
Just a quick check-in.
I am at the beach house with my parents still, but off to NYC tomorrow and then across the country. It has been good practice spending time with my parents. They have always been extremely supportive of me, and now more than ever so there is a great deal of safety here. At the same time I have struggled to grow in my relationship with them - I have always fell back into adolescent/parent behavior patterns, and found myself getting very frustrated with them. This time I am actively trying to change that dynamic, to treat them more as people rather than just "parents". I was listening to the Five Love Languages (which I found interesting but also really depressing given that I cannot try out any of the strategies) and was able to have a productive conversation with them about it. I think that growing in this relationship is a great testing ground for me since there is the security of the unconditional love they have always given me.
I am worried a bit about my lack of exercise. I have gone on 4 20-mile bike rides this week and done 4 hour long yoga sessions, and been to a rock-climbing gym once. But all that pales in comparison to the routine I had established over the last two months. I am walking less, just moving less - that is the lifestyle of my retired parents. They also have much more food (pretzels, chips) around so my diet is not as strict as it had been. I realized going into the trip that this would be a battle and I know that I will most likely put on some more weight. That said, I think that I am in the best shape of my life (pretty cool at age 41) and maintaining that helps with my confidence and self-esteem.
My anxiety has ebbed and flowed. Passing by places where W and I spent time in previous summers regularly triggers memories and nostalgia. Walking on the beach by myself yesterday listening to music I was again moved to tears by the sadness of the situation. The other night I went to bed and woke up an hour later in a near panic attack with such high anxiety. That said, I have been able to keep myself busy - getting up at sunrise to take photos with my dad, editing photos with my dad, watching the World Cup (Ronaldo?!?!), exercising, setting up my camping supplies, reading fiction, listening to self-help books, spending quality time talking with my parents. That helps. In general, everything has been under control, and I have tried to enjoy the time with my aging parents. How many more opportunities will I have?
It has been a weeks since I left, and a week since there has been any contact with the W. That is the longest we have ever gone, and it is hard. I feel the urge to reach out and send a happy picture of me on the trip (I have been posting them regularly on instagram and facebook and they have been constantly liked by Ws best friend and sister). At times, I doubt that LTR is always for the best since I could be withdrawn (as well as needy - great combo, I know) before BD and I worry that my absolute lack of pursuit (no initiation except for strictly necessary logistical stuff for 6 weeks) can be interpreted as withdrawal or anger. But then I hit myself with the 2x4 that I know is coming here - she is in no place to listen to me, and if she wanted to hear from me, she would reach out. That this is the time and space that she asked for. I realize that me reaching out is coming from a place of fear and insecurity, and that isnt positive.
Is there a point when it is okay to reach out in a positive, upbeat way?
Sorry D - reaching out in a positive way is persuit. Let her come to you. the new and improved you . Davide 2.0 version. Good to hear from you. Keep on!
Journaling.
Am now in NYC on my trip, for better and for worse. I actually have been biking all over the city - 2 days and no subway, just hauling @ss over the Manhattan Bridge to and from Brooklyn. Been out rock-climbing and visited old haunts. I have met up with cousins, friends from college, friends from my 1st real job, and spent quality time with my brother and tried to reestablish some of the connection that we had lost over the years. That is important to me. During the MR, I dropped off the grid and focused all my energies on W and really lost touch with other people who were important in my life. Reconnecting with my brother, who I have never been that close with, is, I think, a step in the right direction.
That said, it also has been a journey of shame. I have such good memories of the time I spent in my young adulthood here, and the world was so wide-open and full of possibilities. And everything I see reminds me of that time. And yet, at times, there is an overwhelming sense of shame and disappointment. Here I am over a decade later in worse shape than before and with nothing to show for it. I can reality check myself enough to say that isn't true, that I have lived a lifetime of experiences in that time and grown as a person. However, it doesnt completely erase the shadow of that shame.
Yesterday I had lunch with a dear friend who I havent spoken to in 5 years because I more or less had to cut her out of my life because she was so negative. She went through a breakup with her husband and just spiralled out of control, and I, living far far away, didnt feel like I could help, but I couldnt deal with the constant negativity and anger that she was sharing on social media. She is slightly better, but is still clearly not over a breakup that happened 6 years ago. She is full of rage that her H (they still arent divorced) has moved on, found someone else, and seems happy. She is very intelligent and knows that this is ridiculous, knows that their R was never going to work, but is still living in this resentment, rage, and misery. She listened to my story, but couldnt help but pour out parts of her own, and couldnt control her emotions as it happened.
What I never realized before is that she was the one who walked out on the R. She had an EA and then PA and her H begged and pleaded to get her back. It was a very f@cked up relationship going way back before that, but it was interesting to hear her POV. She said that eventually, after 1.5 years, they attempted to piece but that the guilt she felt and he encouraged, plus the same old patterns of the previous R quickly doomed them. It was great to see my friend, but really hard to see her like this. At the end she was quick to say that my story is not going to be like hers, that I am much too grounded and introspective and level-headed to end up like she has. I dunno.
The other thing that I learned yesterday was disturbing and I am wondering if at some point I need to reach out to my W when I have more information. A former colleague of mine, and friend who went out on double dates a few times with us, was involved in a bad traffic accident on a bus in another country, an accident in which someone died and there were other multiple serious injuries. I know that he didnt die, but beyond that I know nothing else. This guy picked me up on the side of the road when my bike died a month ago and I was stranded miles from home. He has a wife and two little girls. I really hope it isnt too serious. I probably know other people involved as well, but he is the only one I am sure of, and the one I am closest with. I dont pray but I am trying to send positive energy to him and his family.
Hey Davide,
I know what you mean about shame and disappointment. I don't think I went through the shame part, but definitely very disappointed in the beginning stages - I looked at my MR as the 'lost decade'. But it looks like that because you're seeing it through the lens of pain.
I am sure someone looking from the outside would give a well balanced perspective of our lives, but we only have ourselves so that makes it difficult. The world was full of possibilities, but I also realize that I didn't have the perspective and tools that I have now to go after them, but also have the wisdom and insight to pursue them.
You're younger than me and there is still so much life ahead of you. Heck, I know I have it too.
When you get past the melancholic stage - i know that place very well and it was super comforting to be there - one thing you'll realize is that the insight and learnings you have now will allow you to accelerate moving towards your goals. You can't circumvent the process, but you can speed it up. So, take solace in that.
I can tell you after so much soul searching, I came back to what is true to my core and it circles back to when I was a child. Life, through various mechanisms, made that dormant and now when I realize what I want to do with my life, I can see that it was always who I was but other people's expectations, life struggles, and society got in the way. If I had just listened to my inner voice and paid it good attention, I would've been in a different place right now.
So, yes, the past can be full of disappointment and shame, but if you don't take the wisdom from it and apply it, then it will continue to do that.
I know intuitively you know all this, but I am just vocalizing it. It really helped when other people confirmed these things for me initially when I needed external validation to keep going and learning how to trust myself again.
And trust me, it will get noticed by other people when you start radiating your true self. I just had two female colleagues compliment me on my dress sense and how I carry myself. They told me how so many men don't do that, including the ones in their lives and it was refreshing to see a man take care of himself. The external and internal confidence will always show and when it's genuine, it's unbelivably attractive.
About reaching out to W for what you learned, don't do it. There will always be some reason to reach out. I am sure she will find out on her own in some way. Just let that urge subside and just be with yourself.
I can tell you after so much soul searching, I came back to what is true to my core and it circles back to when I was a child. Life, through various mechanisms, made that dormant and now when I realize what I want to do with my life, I can see that it was always who I was but other people's expectations, life struggles, and society got in the way. If I had just listened to my inner voice and paid it good attention, I would've been in a different place right now.
That to me sums it up right there and is written perfectly. Nice observation and thanks for sharing it!
Davide, I am glad you are getting a break away from home. I think you should take your friend's perspective of your R seriously, sometimes going through the $hit we are going thru we forget our original selves, our inherent strength, our inbuilt capacity to endure and who we really are. This friend of yours knows you outside of your MR and she sees a strong person in you, I would listen to that and understand that in the view of others in this world there is an existence outside of the MR which is just veiled right now, all you have to do is pull the curtains off and let the sunshine in and show the world who you originally were. Any encouragement, kindness, friendship that is offered to us right now can only reinforce our strength that the BD has depleted.
Arsh,
Thanks for the support. I find it really bizarre because for the last month or so (starting 3-4 weeks post BD) I have felt stronger than I have in ages. There was a feeling of calm that came over me when I realized that my worst fear (abandonment) came true and I was still standing. Not only was I still standing but I was physically stronger, mentally stronger, and with more of a belief in my future than in years. I feel like the BD snapped me out of depression and allowed me to reframe my life experiences in a whole new way. I don't feel like it has depleted me at all.
Of course that doesnt mean that I am not incredibly sad and anxious and longing to reconnect. It is a veritable sh@tstorm of emotions on a daily basis. But I dont doubt my strength.
You sound like you are doing great, Davide. I hope I can get to a state of optimism that you seem to have found as your new baseline.
My up days are really good, but my down ones get really ugly. Your story gives me hope that I can start finding some genuine peace on a more sustained basis.
Thanks hongaku!
It is interesting that you mention optimism, because that is not a word that I used at all. In fact I feel pessimistic to the point of sheer hopelessness about the possibility of R. I just dont think it will ever come. For me, the strength is in facing that hopelessness head on. Tasting it. Dwelling in it for a bit and letting it wash over me. The strength is knowing that I will survive this even if it will forever sadden me.
I guess I meant optimism in terms of you believing in yourself and your ability to face the hopelessness, and in knowing that you will survive.
Hey Davide,
Make sure you take care of yourself. Do what needs to be done - meds, therapy etc. GAL helps with anxiety big time. You have very little time for low level anxiety when you do white water rafting and your head is under water 50% of the time
For me, the strength is in facing that hopelessness head on. Tasting it. Dwelling in it for a bit and letting it wash over me. The strength is knowing that I will survive this even if it will forever sadden me.
So well put Davide, I read somewhere that LBS should make sure to make the most out of the grief they feel, get their money's worth and there is no healing that will last unless you grieve completely before moving on.
Oh, how I would love to do a crazy good white water rafting trip right now! Let the waters wash away the worries.
Absolutely. But it is so hard to completely grieve while you are still in limbo. Even if I am 99% sure that this wont work out, it is impossible not to hold onto that 01% chance that it does work out. I loved my W with my whole heart, and the worst part of it all is that she knows that and recognizes that, and even recognizes that she loved me the same way. I opened up my soul to her in a way that I have never done before. As horrible as it is to say, it would be easier to grieve if she had suddenly died. (I dont want that, nor would I ever want that, so please dont take it that way.) It would be easier to acknowledge that reciprocal love and how much that meant if she were gone with no hope of coming back, nor with the complications of her walking away from the R.
It is said that it is harder to grieve someone that is still alive because there is not really ever final closure because you know that person still exists. With that being said I feel your pain
Davide. I too have opened the depths of my soul only to my W and she knows she holds the key. I have a reminder in my S everyday about my W both good and bad. I'm trying to focus on the good. He is what is keeping me going this far. Blessings my friend!
Davide...for so many of us the words you write, how you feel are the exact same things we are all going through at this time. May God bless you with grace, peace, patience and strength. You are not alone!
Thanks folks. I appreciate the support. I dont know where I would be without all the advice and morale-boosting I have found here.
Yesterday was a good day as I met up with friends, but I ended up in the evening with a friend who drinks a lot and I really tried to hold back, but had 3 drinks in 4 hours. That was, seemingly, enough to screw up my sleep as I couldnt fall asleep until 3 a.m.
I also havent heard from the W since my trip began 11 days ago. However, yesterday I posted a "story" to instagram (I am somewhat techno-literate but I dont know what that really means other than it disappears after 24 hours) a video of a scene from a Senegalese bar I was in after Senegal won a World Cup game. Just silly singing and dancing. The thing I noticed later on in the day is that with the "stories" you can see (but the viewer cant) who has watched your "story" without them needing to like it or comment on it. This morning, I woke up to see that the W had watched my "story" last night, which means she probably has seen all of my pictures as well. It doesnt change a damn thing, but I am glad she is looking. I have some awesome artistic pictures and lots of me smiling and happy with friends and family. I look good, I look happy, and I am clearly getting on with my life.
A picture is worth a thousand words- Let these pictures and the magical moments be for you not for W. Enjoy your vacation!
Ooph... So I found out this morning that my friend who was involved in a bus crash while abroad with students has two punctured lungs, internal bleeding, and head trauma. He was in a medically induced coma but is evidently out of it now. Christ. I feel so bad for him, but also his wife and two girls.
We all have thought it at some point Davide, when a spouse dies you just have to grieve a loving partner's untimely departure and as hard as it is there is still closure. Life dealt you a $hitty hand. But as a LBS the rejection of a loved one, the resentment and knowing that they willingly are wanting to get rid of us breaking up families is hard to bear. and the grief is not less in anyway. But at the end of the day, we can only think of them as they were and cherish that they are still alive.
Sorry to hear about your friend, here life is dealing some real bad luck to these folks, his wife and daughter especially and in our case our spouse are causing this self inflicted misery to all of us. I hope your friend recovers soon.
Thanks arsh.
Journaling -
I just arrived in Chicago after two straight days of 8 hours driving, first from NYC to Pittsburgh and then on to Chicago today in some torrential rain storms.
The end of my trip to New York was a highlight as I met with my former students/runners for the first time in 11 years. 6 of them came out to a brewery in Brooklyn and it was an amazing experience. We all realized that they are now older than I was when I was coaching them (they are 29 and 30). It was just such a joyous experience to reconnect with them. It was easily the happiest I have been over the past 10 weeks. Its not that I forgot about my situation, in fact I talked about it with them, but it was just so good to see them, and to feel surrounded by so much love. I am trying to actually practice gratitude on a daily basis, and I was/am so immensely grateful to them for putting together that experience and sharing some desperately needed love with me. I held it together for the vast majority of the night until the very end when I was saying goodbyes and couldnt help but cry. I continued to weep as I rode my bike home along the deserted streets of Brooklyn, but it was not from sadness so much as gratitude and happiness. For me it was an unbelievably powerful experience given my emotional state.
My drives have been relatively uneventful as I have kept busy by listening to books on tape, podcasts, and music. Last night I spent the night with a college friend who I hadnt seen in 15 years and her husband and two kids. It was a bit awkward because we have not been that close, but it was still nice to reconnect and be surrounded by a family (and two dogs! I need dog therapy!)
On the final part of the drive into Chicago, as I sped through torrential rain in Indiana I finally had a meltdown. This time, I tried to follow your advice and lean into it. I actually put on a song that W and I both adored and sang along to it as I sobbed. I tried to let the sadness and anguish and loneliness and resentment and longing wash over me, to run its course. I dont know if I feel better now, but I feel like I exhausted those emotions for the time being.
On the way into Pittsburgh I stopped at a supermarket to pick up some things and my credit card inexplicably got denied. That prompted the first communication I have heard from W since I left, as she forwarded on an alert from the bank asking if it was a fraudulent attempt to use the card. There was no message from her, just the bank message. That definitely stung a bit.
I have been slacking a bit with my journaling and CBT work over the past two days, as it has been hard with all the travel and meeting so many people. I thought that I was making progress in my detachment, but the sting that Ws text engendered, and the anguish I felt in the car today seem to indicate that I have a ways to go. I really want to try to enjoy Chicago on its own terms and not dwell on my situation, but it is hard, especially on my own. I have never enjoyed travelling on my own all that much (though I have done much of it) and it nearly always reminds me of how much I enjoyed traveling with W. Nearly all of the flashbacks I have are moments of us traveling somewhere. I constantly need to remind myself to be mindful and live in the here and now and not in the past. I have not done as much yoga as I would have liked recently so that probably hurts as well.
After speaking with my brother-in-law, I am taking some natural medicine both for my stomach and my anxiety - a mixture of bitters with CBD, which is one of the ingredients in marijuana that promotes calm without the mind-altering changes of THC. I cant really tell yet if it is effective. Sitting in the car all day and munching on trail mix has not been good for my stomach for sure!
Davide, just checking on you to see how you are doing.
Hey folks. Greetings from Minnesota. I spent a couple of fun days in Chicago before moving up to Madison and then Minneapolis.
The driving has been okay as I have been able to fill it up with audiobooks, podcasts, and spotify music. Of course I have a couple of back to back 8 hour drives over the flatlands of North Dakota and Montana looming, so we will see how they go.
In Madison I stayed with an acquaintance, but it was a high anxiety day for me, possibly because of the half a gummy I took the night before, possibly because I seemingly had a bad reaction to some food and my stomach wasnt right all day.
Minnesota has been great. I bouldered in Minneapolis and went for a bike ride along the banks of the Mississippi and then through downtown. Then I drove up to another town an hour a way where some good friends of the W and I are currently living. It has been really great to spend time with them.
I do need advice though. Today I finally got my first communication from the W since I left town over two weeks ago. She sent me a longish email. The first paragraph was about how she has thought of writing me messages nearly every day but doesnt want to disturb me. How she doesnt want me to think that she is erasing me from her life or that she doesnt love me. She does love me. She ends it by saying that I have been the most important person in her life for 8 years and she has loved me with her whole heart.
The rest was about how she is trying to live without a car, but that she has a place to live set up, and about how the dog has been escaping from the backyard recently (a problem if I am going to be living alone with the dog).
It is hard for me to reconcile her words with her actions. Throughout the whole process she has been affectionate, and almost loving towards me but resolute in her intention to move out and separate. She has consistently told me that she loves me (even if she isnt in love with me) and cares very much about me. When she sees me in person she hugs me and is affectionate.
I also struggle with my reaction. I have been feeling more and more detached on the trip, although I still struggle at times. This email got to me though. I couldnt just shrug it off, and trying to do so wouldnt honor the emotions that I am feeling. It fills me with longing and sadness.
In terms of a response I am going to wait til tomorrow, but I do want to respond. My question is how to modulate the response. I want to validate her feelings, I want to be friendly. I want to show her that I am doing well and enjoying myself. Can I include anything about my trip? I would love to show her a picture of me and our common friends that we took last night. Is that too pursuitish? Basically, Id like to show her that I am good but that I would like to keep the lines of communication open, but without pressure. I feel like not responding or being overly brief in the email would send the wrong kind of message.
Wise heads, any thoughts?
Any advice on how to respond?
Davide,
Don't worry too much about what kind of message you convey. Try to figure out what response she really deserves. She says she cares about you (I won't use her word "love" because it is open to a wide range of interpretations). She clearly is trying to be nice with you. You say you want to validate her feelings and be friendly. Then do just that. Don't do it because of how she might interpret that, but because it is the nice thing to do. Tell her you are grateful for her feelings (do not reciprocate though), tell her she does not disturb you, tell her she must be in a difficult situation with the car etc.
That way you allow her to keep the communication open, if she wants. You do not have to keep it open. Let her contact you.
In your post it is not clear whether she is asking about your trip. If she has, tell her it is great (no detail), but be brief about it. No pics. If she hasn't asked, don't tell her anything.
Her first question was about my trip and how she hopes I am enjoying it. She also sent me a picture of our dog. I know she would like to see a pic with our friends. She was stalking my instaura but I think it would be nice to show her a happy pic.
I would just say take it very slow let her lead and you respond/validate.
I wouldnt say too much outside of what she brings up and I wouldnt send her pics but would tell her there are some on instagram if she wants to see pics of so and so (you know she has already looked but she doesn t know you know).
It was only after reading over the message again that I noticed she used her pet name for me. More affection...
In terms of validation is it OK to thank her for the kind thoughts and tel her how nice I thought they were? I want to express happiness that she found a place and doesn't have to worry about that, and understanding for the difficulty of the car situation. I also want to ask about the dog bc that is an actual practical matter that affects me. For my trip I just want to say that it has been a unique experience and I have learned a lot, met and reunited with cool people. I do also really want to include the foto of me and our friends. It feels appropriate and is such a happy moment and it is in response to the pic she sent me of the dog.
I am so tempted to use my pet name for her in response but I think that might be pursuitish.
Seems like you are doing great Davide. I think it would be good to thank her for her kind thoughts b/c if a cashier were to have kind thoughts you would thank them. This also brings a mood of positiveness. As for validation- continue-you are doing great. The foto I think is a good idea because it should bring up good feelings. But the pet name. Not a good idea that name was reserved for her H. right now she does not see you as such.Just a note from what I learned here. When communicating use BIFF. Brief-Informative-Firm- Friendly. Cheers!
Hello,
I have been away from the board for a while and have just had a catch up on your situation.
One thing that comes across in your posts, is how similar of a pattern these stages and interactions are after a breakup.
I could have used the words you are using myself.
So as someone who threw themselves into this process not so long ago myself, and was able to improve my life - which led to my wife returning.. I offer you this advice.
I have spoken many times to my wife about certain things we spoke about when she left. Such as, when she sent a message with a heart on or called me a pet name for example. For me at the time it was something to hang onto. In truth, by her own admission, romantically she was done for a months before she left, and her actions where to make the split easier by being smiley and friendly and saying she still loved me etc.. but in the end the outcome is same. Its over. And we convince ourselves it isn't.
Please do not read into every situation. Which it seems from your posts that is what you are doing. She is being nice to you and using pet names, more than likely because she feels guilty because she loves you. But in the long run the aim is let you down gradually.
Your nicely worded messages of thanks are pleasant at best, but will not have any bearing on the outcome of this situation.
The only thing that is going put you in the general direction of potentially resolving this situation is you stopping interacting with her in this manner, and to truly accept that some of your behaviour is to entice a reaction from her.
i.e. telling her you have learned a lot from the trip.. if you are honest with yourself - telling her that, is your true message of ... i have changed.
You hope she will think.. Maybe Davide has changed, maybe it can be different this time?
I understand how hard this is. The reason I am spending 30 mins of my time typing this is because (despite how unique you think your love with your wife was) its no different to 90% of the rest of us here.
At the end of all this I have no doubt things will be good for you - but at the moment despite your best efforts, I would advise to stop doing anything that is used either consciously or subconsciously to get a reaction from your wife.
It is only hurting you in the long run pal.
Benito,
First, thanks for responding and in such detail. I think you are spot on that I want her to see my changes because I feel they are real and positive. I am preparing myself for life without her and now know that I can handle that but I certainly dont want it. Nor do I want to be controlling in my words. However apart from learning a lot on the trip what else is objectionable? I want to validate and respond in a friendly manner. How can I do that without implicitly trying to get a reaction out of her? Not responding or responding totally business like sends it own message which I dont think I want either.
I would take Eric's advice on how to respond. He has already kinda framed your responses and use that and tweak it. Keep it pleasant and short. Validate her. I wouldn't 'thank' her for anything, but I like how Eric used the word 'grateful', which I think is more appropriate. I stopped thanking language a long time ago and it was really helpful.
I also wouldn't send her any pics. She can see on IG right? So, let that be.
Also, what Benito wrote is spot-on.
Benito,
Your message hit me like a sack of bricks.
Honestly, I have been feeling better over the past few days. I was spending time with friends on my trip and was really able to enjoy myself without so much anxiety or thinking about the R. It had been less and less present in my mind. Even after getting the message from the W - that shook me a bit, but I recovered quickly. I also thought that it was a positive step to acknowledge my emotions upon receiving it, rather than trying to lie to myself, repress them, and tell myself I am fully detached emotionally. In fact, on the 6 hours I spent driving this morning I was in a great mood. I was singing along whole-heartedly to music as I drove, even enjoying a good cry as I heard a Beatles song that spoke to me. It felt good.
And then I got your message and I felt like such a failure. It is not a critique of the message but its impact on me. It made me think and stew about it the rest of the day (I drove another 7 hours). I think that it really hurt me because I have been taking pride in the way that I have been handling things. I have given my W all the time and space she wants as I have almost never initiated contact in the last two months. I have worked long and hard on myself, both critically and compassionately. I have instituted 180s in my life (eliminating negative self talk is a big one), I have meditated, read voraciously, and worked hard with an IC. I have GALed more than I would have thought possible. I have gotten myself into the best physical condition of my life and embarked on the most ambitious trip of my life - reconnecting with friends and family along the way. And nearly everyone I speak with, from my parents, to my friends, to my therapist constantly remark on how well I am doing, how I am handling this so well.
And your message was not just a splash of cold water, but full-on submerging into the Arctic ocean. I felt clueless and lost, and like I have not learned anything over the past 2-3 months. Not because it was wrong, but because it cut deeply at what I thought I was doing well.
A few questions and comments:
One thing that comes across in your posts, is how similar of a pattern these stages and interactions are after a breakup.
Perhaps this is due to my own blinders, but I dont see this much on the forum, and it is one of the reasons I read up on your sitch. There is so much vitriol, resentment, anger, and craziness in most of the sitches, so I struggle at times to find parallels to my own.
Please do not read into every situation. Which it seems from your posts that is what you are doing. She is being nice to you and using pet names, more than likely because she feels guilty because she loves you. But in the long run the aim is let you down gradually.
Guilty as charged. I struggle not to read into things, at the least I can recognize when I am doing it now. As far as her being out on the relationship for real. I get it. I dont fool myself there. I accept that it is over, but I also know that I do still long to share my journey with her. Do I need to completely let that go as well?
Your nicely worded messages of thanks are pleasant at best, but will not have any bearing on the outcome of this situation.
The only thing that is going put you in the general direction of potentially resolving this situation is you stopping interacting with her in this manner, and to truly accept that some of your behaviour is to entice a reaction from her.
I think this is the crux of the situation for me. I simply do not understand how I
am supposed to interact with her. I get that I should not be trying to elicit a reaction from her. I get that I should not be trying to control the situation. I also get that I shouldnt be angry. I shouldnt be cold or distant. So for me the question is what is the manner that I should be interacting with her? I thought that I was doing a great job in my interactions previously, but it seems like that isnt the case so I am completely confused. I have consistently been positive, avoided R talk, validated her, listened and been friendly. I left our in-person interactions feeling very happy with them, but now I am left doubting everything.
The actual message that I sent out did not include the part about learning a lot on my trip. I told her that I was grateful for the message and her feelings and that I appreciated the pic of the dog. I validated about her getting an apt and not getting a car. I agreed that the dog escaping from the yard is a problem. She asked about the trip so I told her that it has been great meeting and reuniting with folks and it has been a unique experience.
At this point I am sure I f#cked that up somehow as well.
Morning Davide,
I am so glad you took the post in the way it was meant to be received.
From my personal experience it was the direct advice that initially hurt that was the most helpful. It stopped me kidding
myself and focused my attention on me rather than me/us/her.
With the added bonus of being able to speak to someone who has been a WAS, took ring off, solicitors called etc.. I have another insight into how a situation like this can play out and the inner workings etc..
The reason I am replying to you directly is because I see my situation in yours. We never really argued, had loads of great times, loving, supporting, etc.. so when the end came - even though I understood she had gone... my soul/spirit wouldn't allow it.
I was out with friends/reading/running, but my thoughts were with her - it was my self defense mechanism kicking in too save me from further pain - convincing me that my situation was different, and because she loved me - she would eventually see the truth and come home.
You say that you do not know how to interact with her. Just take a second to yourself and think about this comment. You are asking for advise on how to speak to your own wife. A person that you have been married to for 7 years. That says alot to me.
A confident, and mentally healthy male, who is strong in his own self worth - (you will get here at some point just not now) does NOT need to ask what to say. There is no game to be played. When you met did you play games? take advise on what to say? - Or like most relationships - did you just be yourself and she loved you for who you are?
Thats the reason why most people break up. As the years role by we all fall into different roles i.e. husband, money earner - (because society gives us an idea on how we SHOULD be) and we lose focus on the only truth we ever have. Being ourselves. And guess what happens? - the person you are with falls out of love with you because you are not the same person anymore - not because your a bad person, but because your focus was on what is perceived as a good relationship i.e. paying the bills, being faithful, etc.. rather than the actual truth... i.e. two people who can still be individuals but are their for each other when they need it.
You need to be in a situation were you are confident to say to your Wife, the world is yours - go and do want you want and you are emotional strong enough to know that if this love is true, she will come back. I honestly believe that in theory you believe you are doing this, and thats fine, but in reality I personally dont think you are there yet.
There is no point at this stage saying nice things and acting a certain way because its not your true authentic self she fell in love with, its plain for everyone to see, that its a desperate version of yourself trying to hang on - which isnt the most attractive thing in the world to a women.
You said above - but I also know that I do still long to share my journey with her. Do I need to completely let that go as well?
Im sorry pal but you need to smell the roses a little bit here. This situation has nothing to do with what you want. Your world at the moment is upside down. The operating system your brain is working on needs to be updated as it currently still convincing you that if you do something you will convince her to come back. She doesnt want to share this journey with you. I dont like to write that - but she doesnt - or she would still be with you.
Personally, I think you need to stop doing things to distract you from thinking about her. The reason I say this is because ignoring things do not address the problem. It is waiting for you when you return.
Your lifes goal at the moment is focused on getting her back. It now needs a hard reset.
This next bit sounds harsh but please understand my sentiment. You need to convince yourself she has died. She is no longer an option.
Sounds weird, but I promise you this is the only thing that you can focus on that will prepare you for what is to come. If she was no longer alive, I would bet my life your outlook and actions would have to change - because she is out of the picture. That is the only way you are going to move forward, by fully accepting that.
When you know there is only you left, you go into survival mode and your senses heighten. Its fight time. You need to survive. So you adapt your life to make yourself better. For you.
Its funny, because of my low self worth I always though that if I acted a certain way, or was polite and friendly more people would like me etc.. because the biggest fear for most people is being alone. its a trick because you never live a true life.
When I lived alone for 8 months, and focused on me and embraced the pain and learned about myself some more - gradually over time, my family relationship improved, my job improved, and my wife came back because she say it natural over a 9 months period. Not because i did these things to win people back, but because they wanted to be around someone like me who had the strength to change for me irrelevant of being alone or not. Its a attractive quality.
People are so eager to get to the destination (recon), that they forget the journey to get there - which is the most important part. Which is why so many people fail in my opinion. Dont avoid the pain, go through it - its the only way.
But you will be ok, but you need to get your head in the game.
Benito thats some really solid advice and really resonated with me and how I have been looking at it all wrong and lying to myself that I am doing things for me . When in fact it has all had an underlying goal to get a reaction from my W. The part about confidence and not knowing how to speak to my W rang true too and what you said makes so much sense.
I need to shake up and wake up and I think seeing my W as dead and this person I have to interact with as just a somebody I know approach will help. I still need to grieve for my W and my R.
Thanks.
Benito thats some really solid advice and really resonated with me and how I have been looking at it all wrong and lying to myself that I am doing things for me . When in fact it has all had an underlying goal to get a reaction from my W. The part about confidence and not knowing how to speak to my W rang true too and what you said makes so much sense.
I need to shake up and wake up and I think seeing my W as dead and this person I have to interact with as just a somebody I know approach will help. I still need to grieve for my W and my R.
Thanks.
Hello,
I agree.
We have all been there. We will lie to ourselves constantly to save ourselves pain. The correct path to follow is the most painful one, not the path of least resistance.
Once that pain has been faced (and its fu&&ing painful) it gets less and less until you can cope... and then you start to live again.
But its a common error by new starters to think that because they are going to gym, or GAL more than it is going to end in their partner coming back - like its a magic trick.
The truth is most people do these things with one eye open looking for a reaction.
The fact that you recognize this is a brilliant first step though. well done.
Benito- thanks for the shot of reality- The truth hurts but also the truth helps! Please keep posting
Benito,
I want to respond now, even though I have just read your message because I am not sure if I will have any internet access over the next few days.
I hear you saying that your thoughts were with her, and I know that on your thread that you talked about "faking it til you make it" in terms of interactions. Perhaps I am still there. If I want to keep the lines of communication open, I need to fake it til I make it.
I admit that I am completely discombobulated in my interactions with her because I feel like everything I wanted to say in my original message was something that I would have said when we first met. At the same time I get your point about being my authentic self - I feel like I am much closer to that person now than I was pre-BD. However, my authentic self at this point does still want R, even if it is a distant and fading hope, and I cant show that authenticity.
You tell me that my W doesnt want to share the journey with me. Check. I hear that. It stings, but a lot less now that I have heard it a bunch of times from you and others, and from her on more than one occasion. Your operating assumption, which may be true, seems to be that I am in denial or simply distracting myself. I feel like I have been pretty open in dealing with my emotions as they arise, but I have tried to avoid wallowing in them. Your message reads to me that I need to wallow in my grief and soak it up more and more. I suppose I could do that, but I dont know that it will help me to become a better stronger person.
I feel like I can focus on me and be positive, even thinking and planning my future without the W, affirming myself, practicing self-compassion and living in the moment. Those things strengthen me. Or I can grieve and focus on the dead R and spend much of my time in misery, sadness, anger, and resentment. It is not that I deny those emotions as they come up every now and again, but I do choose to acknowledge them and let them pass. As I have spent more time on my trip I have thought less and less about the R and that future, and more about me. I thought that was a positive step, but now you have me questioning that.
Your final words sting a lot as well, that I need to "get my head in the game." It implies that I am not focused, or not focused on the right things. Honestly, it brings up anger, because as poorly or well as I am doing I have been putting more effort into this than anything I have ever done in my life.
Benito, thanks for the posts, i actually read both of them a few times to not miss out on anything. I am guilty of most of the things you point out here as well and I am sure most LBSs are initially, how each of us lets go and detaches is all dependent again on our personalities I believe and I know the earlier we reach that stage the faster we heal.
But what I can pragmatically say in another person's sitch I fail to apply to my own. Emotions and desperation to keep the MR turn us into someone else.
I have asked people how to approach, what to say to WAH, a person I have spent 15 years and practically all my adult life with. BD gives them the power and makes us the weak spouse that grovels to save the MR. But every time I want to respond to WAH in my usual way I start thinking , the real me is who he has rejected so unless I try to appease and see his side he will not like me. It is weak I know but I have tried justifying that it is validation and 180 and so I see in Davide and most other sitches too. you read how DB is counter intuitive but you only know how much so when you actually start practicing it.
It has been a crazy couple of days and nights as I have traversed the upper mid-west, spent a night camping in Glacier National Park and am finally in western Washington. Lots of driving, 26 hours or so over the past 3 days. Unfortunately, my physical state is deteriorating. I had to leave the park yesterday as a chronic leg injury flared up and my other leg is hurting as well. Maybe the driving is having an affect on that as well. The lack of exercise isnt great for me.
Moreover, my mind has been consumed by Benito's posts. They make me question myself so much. Am I just in denial and distracting myself? That seems to be the heart of the issue.
Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate - Abandon all hope, ye who enter here - Dante, The Inferno.
You need to convince yourself she has died. She is no longer an option.
I have struggled to do just that in relation to a possible R. What is the process by which one reaches that point? I am not afraid of the pain, I spent a good month in agony post BD, I know that I can handle it, I have faith in my strength. Every time a thought pops up in my head about getting back together, should I just be reality checking it and shooting it down "Davide, W doesnt love you, doesnt want to be with you." I dont feel like I am repressing my emotions or running away from them. I have tried picturing what it will be like when I return home and my W has move all of her things out of the house - the huge gaping hole that will be there. Right now, even doing those things doesnt normally provoke a huge emotional response. I almost wish that I did have a huge emotional response - there is a catharsis there. I am sure when I get home to an empty house I will have some sort of emotional response, but I dont understand how I can work through that now, ahead of time.
In any case, does Benito or anyone else have any advice how to drop the rope emotionally, not just intellectually?
Secondly, I read an implication that all the things that I am doing to GAL, to work on myself, etc... are distractions from dealing with the reality of my situation.
I honestly believe that in theory you believe you are doing this, and thats fine, but in reality I personally dont think you are there yet.
Personally, I think you need to stop doing things to distract you from thinking about her. The reason I say this is because ignoring things do not address the problem. It is waiting for you when you return.
This is a pretty brutal criticism of everything I have tried to do to improve myself over the past 2 months. I thought that the point of GALing was to build up your own life completely independent of the W and MR. More and more often I have been getting to the point of enjoying myself with friends and forgetting about the sitch, not having that low-grade anxiety in the back of my head at all times like it was before. I thought that was a positive step.
I have worked to be mindful, to live in the moment, to practice and experience gratitude for the opportunities that I have and the experiences I am living. I was walking through some of the most beautiful valleys in the world yesterday, I consider it success to enjoy that and enjoy my time there. I thought that was a positive step.
My self-esteem IS higher than it was before. I wasnt coming from a good place, but I am improving. I am practicing self compassion during my moments of weakness or self criticism. I am mentally reframing situations in positive ways, looking for opportunity rather than blame. I am becoming more aware of my cognitive distortions (mind reading in particular) and calling myself out for them. I agree that I am not completely detached emotionally (I have admitted that repeatedly) and that is why I react emotionally to my Ws messages. But isnt progress progress?
I completely understand the criticism that I need to drop the rope and give up any hope or emotional attachment, but I struggle to understand why not being there yet should negate the real progress I feel that I am making. It is also hard to hear that what I think of as progress being characterized as distraction from doing the real work. Shouldnt I be doing both? It also seems to me that maybe I am doing things in the order that I need to be doing them. Emotional detachment takes a long time, maybe these other things are intermediary steps on my long journey.
I do not think Benito is saying that the real progress you have made is negated, I think he is just saying you are not quite there yet.
I applaud your progress and aspire to be where you are at, to be honest. I intellectually know what I need to do, but am fully aware that I have not made a terrible amount of progress detaching. I am doing a lot of the right things, but I know all the same that I am not there yet emotionally by a long shot. You may not be quite there either, Davide, but I can tell by reading your posts that you are well and truly on your way there and you just need to stay on the path you are on.
Feelings are not really controllable, and learning to let go of a love partner and find acceptance that you may never reconcile are extremely difficult concepts to truly embrace. I know it is possible, but I have yet to believe I can do it myself. You do not need to doubt your progress, and I think Benito was actually just trying to encourage you to take the final emotional leaps that will be necessary to ultimately find peace within yourself and be genuinely open to both the possibility of the relationship being over with finality and the possibility that your W will find her own way back into your life. And you will know without an ounce doubt that you will be perfectly fine either way. Can you say that now?
Hongaku,
Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate your support. It seems like we are not so far off from each other in terms of this process.
That said, what you say seems to go against the things I have been reading lately. I also thought that I was on the correct path - not there yet - but on the path which will eventually lead to detachment and happiness on my own. I thought that I was making progress and was confident in the direction that I was heading. It comforted me in my moments of doubt. I am traveling the country, visiting old friends, seeing amazing places and meeting new folks. However, my reading of Benito's words (whom I respect greatly) is that all of that, all of the GALing, the travel, the good times - is just a distraction. That I need to be thinking about my W, need to search out the pain and embrace it, that if I am not doing that I am in denial, that I am not dealing with my issue and that is why I cant let go completely. Honestly, now I feel like I have no faith in any path. If I am happy and living my life it is just denial. If I cant summon tears or emotions it is because I am just repressing my emotions.
I am certainly trying to drop the rope. Yesterday, for the first time, while talking with a close friends wife, I talked about the R as if it were over. In the past I always said that I thought there was an 80% chance that it was over, but this was the first time I didnt qualify it. It hurt a little, and made it a little more real in my head to vocalize it to someone else (it has been a constant refrain in my head recently "it is over, over.")
Davide,
I feel like you can distract yourself and do many things to improve yourself and your life but I'm not aware of anything that will reduce the pain in such a short time period. I can't seem to find your original story but it appears from your signature that this all happened just a few months ago. I've been going through this with my husband for several years now and most of the time I'm barely making it. I've done many things to move on but there's not really any path, or anything anyone has said, or anything else I can think to do that helps. The only possibility on my end, which requires more work, is stronger spiritual faith and submitting more completely to a God that surely does nothing to prevent our suffering on this earth. I think it would help somewhat if people like us here on this board could meet in real life to reduce the isolation. I'm hoping to go to the local divorce group in this area but I haven't made it yet. Perhaps you can seek out friends in similar situations in your area as well.
Hey D....
I don't think that's what Benito is saying. My reading is that he's talking about distraction in the sense that you avoid the discomfort and the pain and think that GAL is going to get rid of it. GAL is there to get you on the path of self-confidence and self-worth. It is one of the ingredients in the recipe for letting go and detachment.
I believe his point is that you have to lean in into your pain. Yes, that will involve thinking about your W, but your focus shouldn't be on dwelling on her. Instead you need to seek out the areas you believe you fell short in the MR and work on that. So, leaning into the pain is about processing and understanding it.
I don't think feeling happy is living in denial. I think living in denial is saying that the pain doesn't exist and that there is no grief. We can't live completely happy or sad. We live in a balance of those emotions. When the happy and joyful moments outbalance the negative emotions, then you're reaching equilibrium. You won't be able to completely let go of the negative emotions and that's okay.
You don't have to summon tears. Let them come. If you lean into your pain, you will have the tears and the emotional fatigue that comes with it. The key is not to live in it, but process it and know that it's there. It is to recognize it when it comes and knowing that you can manage it. It will slowly ebb away, trust me.
So, don't stop GAL and all of that. They're not distractions as long as you are also leaning into the pain of all of this.
Denial is saying you're okay. You are most definitely not. But instead of trying to overcome, first just accept it. And tell yourself that you're not going to be okay for a while, and continue your progress on GAL, detachment, and dropping the rope.
Letting go isn't stopping to think of W. Letting go is about you not holding any responsibility for her path and actions.
I think being melancholic is fine. It's a stage. Also remember that your heart will take longer to catch up to your mind.
A good friend shared this image which I find helpful. Imagine that my wife is in a coma in the hospital; all I can do is watch her through a window and pray she recovers.
In Stage 1, I spend ALL my energy watching, hoping, and praying.
In Stage 2, I carry on with the other necessary activities in my life, but I still think constantly of my wife, still hoping she recovers from her coma.
Perhaps in Stage 3, I resign myself to the fact she will never recover and soldier on to find happiness elsewhere.
Many of us are in Stage 2. I continue to love my wife deeply, but all I can do is watch her through the metaphorical window. Much of my energy is still caught up in thinking about her and missing her, even as I try to move on, even as I know all I can do is hope, pray, and exercise patience.
I am luckier than most. My wife's crisis is existential; she continues to be the most decent person I know. My children are independent and mature. I have wonderful support from prayerful friends. As long as I am in Stage 2, the challenge is to for me to continue to choose:
(1) to provide loving support and steadfastness for my wife;
(2) to model a mature response for my children; and
(3) to behave in a manner I can be proud of, regardless of outcome.
All of which is to suggest: this is easy to say, and much, much harder to practice.
Davide, one other thing I forgot to mention is that you shouldn't lose hope. You and your wife may still reconcile in the future. You can't sit around and wait for that to happen but there's a decent chance she'll be sorry and want a second chance at some point. Things may not be as bleak as they seem at this particular time.
Nicole,
Thanks. You are right that I am still a newbie - just 3 months in. That surely colors my perspective, and that is why I am all too happy to listen to the lessons of people who have put in much more time than me.
Honestly, I have melancholic moments thinking about the good times my W and I had while out on a trip to Seattle years ago, but for the most part my thoughts dont go to her and the MR unless I direct them too. I enjoy the time with my friends for what it is - time to reconnect and build new bonds with my friends. If anything, I want to talk more about the separation and MR with my friends as I dont shy away from it and it helps me process and feel better about it.
In terms of giving up hope - it seems to me that that is the only way for me to really drop the rope. If I dont do that I cant let her go fully and genuinely.
Maika,
Thanks man! I always appreciate your voice of reason.
I believe his point is that you have to lean in into your pain. Yes, that will involve thinking about your W, but your focus shouldn't be on dwelling on her. Instead you need to seek out the areas you believe you fell short in the MR and work on that. So, leaning into the pain is about processing and understanding it.
I don't think feeling happy is living in denial. I think living in denial is saying that the pain doesn't exist and that there is no grief. We can't live completely happy or sad. We live in a balance of those emotions. When the happy and joyful moments outbalance the negative emotions, then you're reaching equilibrium. You won't be able to completely let go of the negative emotions and that's okay.
You don't have to summon tears. Let them come. If you lean into your pain, you will have the tears and the emotional fatigue that comes with it. The key is not to live in it, but process it and know that it's there. It is to recognize it when it comes and knowing that you can manage it. It will slowly ebb away, trust me.
Trust me when I say that I am well aware of the aspects of the MR where I fell short. I get them and have been working on them as much as I can. Identifying my own failings has always come easy to me!
When you talk about it ebbing away, honestly that is what I felt was already starting to happen with the time and distance that my trip provided. The good moments were beginning to outweight the negative. Of course the negative was still there, but it wasnt the oppressive weight that it had been in the past. That is why I felt like I was making progress.
Davide, you ARE making progress from what I can discern from your posts. Yeah, to a degree aspects of the process could be considered distractions - at least for the time being. There are such things as healthy distractions though. But as Maika said, lean into the pain when it visits you. Letting go does not mean forgetting, it means accepting.
As Nicole alludes to, your W will reach her own conclusions and they may not be what you currently expect. I agree with you that it seems like losing hope is the only way to drop the rope. However, I would say that it is more about letting go of expectations, either of reconciling or of a permanent ending of the relationship (I would suggest you stop even thinking in terms of a MR, and simply of it as a relationship period). You can still maintain an element of hope and envisioning of positive outcomes - just not an expectation.
I suppose it comes down to a sustained attitude of mindfulness, and it seems to me you are closer to that than not. Your last few posts since Benito gave his perspective are concerning. You are taking it too negatively and doubting yourself far too much. Get back on track without self-blame!
Yeah good to hear you know where you feel you need to make improvements for yourself and where you fell short in the MR.
I believe you were making progress as well. And this trip was just perfectly timed for you to get space and perspective. But what you'll notice is that you're still on a yo-yo of emotions. They may not jump around as acutely as after BD, but you're still on the pendulum and it can suddenly swing from one direction to the other.
I know that there were moments when I thought I was invincible and putting DBing into motion, and then a few days later I would crash and then come back up again, and then crash again. The time between those swings started stretching and I was having more better days than bad days. Even now, I will still have a rough few hours, but it's mostly about me still being hard on myself and letting my emotions to surface.
One of the things on Benito's thread helped my perspective a lot was that - no help is coming! Yeh, you can have friends, family and community and IC, but they provide temporary relief and help shoulder some of the weight. But ultimately, it is you in that room at night and you gotta face your demons. Once I understood that, it helped me a lot.
Also, don't stay so tied down to the idea of progress. You'll take two steps forward and one backwards. It's just the nature of healing and there is no consistent moving forward until you reach a threshold. And that takes time and leaning into your pain.
And your threshold marker changes - mine changed from focus on W and the MR and the constant obsessing to why I am having a hard time with some of my goals and what is not working and what is. Right now I am sidelined with two injuries and climbing and working out is completely out of the question for a few months. It was a major blow, but I got up and focused on how I could spend my time on other stuff.
So be kind to yourself. These are going to be hard fought gains, but failure is part of success. You're on the right path. Enjoy your GAL and time with people, and take in the travel.
Thoughts control the emotions. If you feel sad, think about all the good in your life. If nothing is good, think about how you're going to overcome all of it and be the better for it. If you feel alone and scared, lean on friends, counselors, family, and lovers. We're all connected and if I can help, let me know.
Today was a good day.
I spoke with my IC for an hour, mainly about the issues raised here. He basically preached self-compassion and that he thought my path was working pretty well for me. He did point out (accurately) that he was surprised by my emotional reaction to Benito's post, and that I had handed over so much power over my emotions to people on this forum. It was a good point. It was hard for me to explain how comforting and soothing it has been to have a plan (which I adopted and modified slightly to make my own) to follow, a plan made by others and buttressed by the support and guidance of others here. That said, I shouldnt give over that power so easily to anyone. A large part of it is because I do at times question if my positive self-talk, mindfullness, mental reframing towards more positive thoughts -- if all those things were just a form of denial. They are not indigenous to my brain as I have always tended towards the negative, and it is easy to doubt how real they are.
That said, I had a wonderful day. An hour of morning yoga was a good start. Catching up with a friend I hadn't see in 14 years was amazing as well. A session climbing for the first time in a week. Dinner with my friend and two cute kids was the final piece of the day.
I talked with my friend I hadnt seen in 14 years about my sitch (she never even met the W) and it was good to get that out there. I also verbally acknowledged how hard it was when memories of past times with the W here would pop up, triggered by a location or just a stray thought. I talked with my other friend about how strange it will be for me to live in my house alone. I am past 40 and have never lived without family, a roommate, or the W. It will be lonely for sure. I say all this because in the balance, this was a great day, I enjoyed myself immensely and spent quality time with people I love, but it wasnt because I was ignoring my sitch. The good just far outweighed the bad, thats all.
Maika, thanks for the words as always. I feel for you with the injuries. I have been there before and it makes life more difficult. Even now, I have been struggling with leg stuff (related in part to driving so much, I think) and it has cut down my ability to exercise and even walk by a big chunk. That is such an important part of my GAL activities, and I think it is probably similar for you. Good luck getting through it.
Davide great update- continue on your path to being the best you!