Original Thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2787744&page=10My last post there:
I'm gonna type this out while it's fresh. WW woke me up at 11 PM and kept tickling me, then after several minutes got more physical, slapping my head and hitting me with the pillow. She wanted me to get out of the bed. Said I was playing a game and that I should be doing what she wants bc I created this marital mess. I told her it's not a game at all. She's saying that someone told me to do this. I told her several times that it's late and I need to go back to bed. Obviously she didn't care to keep crossing that boundary. She cried several times. Then we talked a little more.
Then I told her I need to go back to bed. She leaves the room the comes back in to get in another word bc she's mad about sleeping in the other bedroom. So I finally say the word affair, and she's offended, says she didn't do anything wrong. I told her she was lying to herself and that she wouldn't be hiding her car and trying to get me to coerce me and a friend into not saying anything about it.
She denies this, of course, and I told her she was being like my dad (who is a horrible person). She got mad when I told her she was being like my dad when she told me i have to answer her calls bc it's her family plan. She told me I was being controlling and selfish about the bed. She doesn't like the word affair at all and Backdoor admitted to it. At the end of the 2 hour convo she wants to know who all I have told about her affair. I tell her I don't feel comfortable telling her bc I don't trust her right now. She says that I'm playing a game by saying that, and that she's been open with me and telling me things. I tell her she's not being honest with me, (she didn't admit to the money she's hiding). I say there's still secrets and she assumed I meant the affair so I reminded her that's not what I'm talking about. She didn't tell me anything new, so I didn't know what she meant.
She cried several times and blamed me for everything, she brought me emailing and texting an ex 6 years ago again, I think to justify her actions. She accused me again of trying to "take everything". She told me that her mom told her sister that her mom thinks WW is very depressed. WW also accused me of recording her, which I wasn't. I think I need to draw the line on the physical contact and conversation times.
She also stated that she can't D right now bc of the house and car situation plus she has no paper income and no where to go.
Crazy night.
Steve, I wanted to say thanks for the response. I'd been missing your input for a little bit, I feel like I owe you a beer!
When/how should I remind she can return to the MBR, just when she brings it up?
No history of mental issues, sex assault a couple years before we got together and I think she tried repress/run from it. Don't think she ever got through it. Her note from a year ago confirmed she wasn't over it.
On Friday and Saturday, when she was sad, she was trying to rally me to her cause against her mom. Last night, she tells me the bad things her mom said about me. I think she just keeps trying and trying to get everyone on her side (when it's convenient). For example, she tried to get her mom on her side in regards to the MBR.
Yes, only when she brings it up. You do not want to be initiating any MR related discussions. When she does validate her feelings, but be very careful giving too much information. You want her interested and curious. That is your play here, to get her interested (through attractiveness) and curious (through mystery).
The sexual assault is HUGE and really explains a lot of her behavior. I would highly suggest that if and when the time comes where is ready to come back to the MR you make IC and MC a stipulation. Otherwise you could end up right back where you are in short order.
Yes, only when she brings it up. You do not want to be initiating any MR related discussions. When she does validate her feelings, but be very careful giving too much information. You want her interested and curious. That is your play here, to get her interested (through attractiveness) and curious (through mystery).
The sexual assault is HUGE and really explains a lot of her behavior. I would highly suggest that if and when the time comes where is ready to come back to the MR you make IC and MC a stipulation. Otherwise you could end up right back where you are in short order.
How do you think the assault plays into things?
Just remembered a gem from last night, WW says "even if you would have changed a year ago, it wouldn't have mattered". We haven't even been married 2 years crazy lady!
She also says that she knows how I feel in regards to my pain over her affair, because of what I did to her. This is just her way to justify and minimize her actions.
Yes, only when she brings it up. You do not want to be initiating any MR related discussions. When she does validate her feelings, but be very careful giving too much information. You want her interested and curious. That is your play here, to get her interested (through attractiveness) and curious (through mystery).
The sexual assault is HUGE and really explains a lot of her behavior. I would highly suggest that if and when the time comes where is ready to come back to the MR you make IC and MC a stipulation. Otherwise you could end up right back where you are in short order.
How do you think the assault plays into things?
Just remembered a gem from last night, WW says "even if you would have changed a year ago, it wouldn't have mattered". We haven't even been married 2 years crazy lady!
She also says that she knows how I feel in regards to my pain over her affair, because of what I did to her. This is just her way to justify and minimize her actions.
Because unresolved sexual assault leave a lot of hang ups about relationships and sex. Until she fully deals with that she will likely NEVER have a healthy relationship with anybody.
On the gem, ignore it. They all say garbage like that. "Even if your changes are real, I still want out." All you can do is change from this point forward, the past is the past. However, due to her unresolved feelings on the SA she might hang on to the past. Those that have been through things like that and haven't dealt properly with it will often have a hard time of letting go of the past misdeeds of others.
Again forget what she says. She will say whatever suits here at the moment. If verbally acknowledging your pain gives her some perceived advantage at the moment then she will probably do it. WWs in particular, and WAWs in general don't really care about your pain. In order to get to BD they've already reconciled in their mind that they have to hurt you. Hurting you is so far from their concern, no matter what they say, that you shouldn't even think about whether she knows you are hurting. She doesn't care. If she did then she wouldn't have slept with someone else and she wouldn't have crushed your soul on BD.
Is it a dumb idea to expose her affair to her friends and family? I'm reading something that says it's the best way to end the affair. But that doesn't guarantee she'll come back to me anyways.
Is it a dumb idea to expose her affair to her friends and family? I'm reading something that says it's the best way to end the affair. But that doesn't guarantee she'll come back to me anyways.
Don't try to mix and match different approaches. Pick one and stick with it. If you are going to stick to DB'ing then do not expose the affair, because that will look to her like you are trying to rally everyone against her and she will resent you for it. I am not sure where some of these other sites come up with this info, I have never heard of a couple successfully reconciling because one of them shamed the other by exposing their A to everyone. Usually it just makes them go deeper undercover with it, and they cling to the OP because they think it's just the two of them against the world. So exposing the affair can actually drive them closer together.
Is it a dumb idea to expose her affair to her friends and family? I'm reading something that says it's the best way to end the affair. But that doesn't guarantee she'll come back to me anyways.
Terrible idea. Think about this. It will be hard enough for her to work on things with you to return to the MR. Imagine if friends and family know about it? Then she has bridges to build with all of them to also return the MR. I am not sure who suggested this, but I am almost positive that in the vast majority of the cases where an A is exposed to friends and family, that the couple involved ends up divorced.
I don't think you want that. There will be a time and place to expose her A to others, but while your goal is R it is not the time.
It is from Dr. Harley, marriagebuilders website.
Her parents, sister, and some friends already know from back when I was still pursuing in April. I think they are downplaying or she is lying about the extent of it, although I don't know. I haven't spoken to them in weeks.
Ovr,
You have asked questions like that before, about exposing her A. IMO, any many here on this site share the same opinion, you won't be able to shame your W back into the M.
It also looks really weak to go around telling people about your personal life. You are a man. Men don't go around looking to shame their wives, they show her what a real man looks like. You won't others to tell her she's wrong. She knows what she is doing is wrong.
Stay the course, you can't rush the process. Thru the fire, not around, under, or OVR.
Thanks, joejoe. Sorry for being a thickhead.
Any comments on the other stuff, on page 10 of the last thread?
I think it bothered WW to all hell that last night I could walk in and fall asleep next to her. I think that's why she woke me up to have her fight.
I am definitely drawing a harder boundary on this moving forward, I'm just too tired at work today.
Here's the parts from my first thread I would love to hear some comments on:
Made some progress tonight. WW texted me again late this afternoon asking if I was at the lake. Again, I asked why, WW says I dunno. I say Ok then, WW replies that she is having a hard time so I say "with what"? WW says don't worry i'll be fine. I say "ok have a good weekend". Then WW asks again if I'm at the lake, but asks something else so I only respond to the other question. WW asks again if I'm at the lake. I don't respond.
An hour later WW asks me to call. After 20 or 30 minutes I call WW. WW says she is upset and crying about not being at the lake. Her folks didn't end up going bc she didn't plus it'd be awkward with the lake neighbors explaining why I wasn't there. WW wants a "new life". WW says her parents are yelling at her. WW also says that this is "happening to her", whatever that means. That's probably her way of saying, "this isn't my fault" and cleaning her hands of her wrongdoings.
I wonder if I should be her shoulder to cry on. Sounds like getting the benefits of a husband without the necessary reciprocation. She says she "wishes she could change her life". I'm not sure why she can't. WW says she's unhappy with her life. OK crazy lady.
Eventually WW texted me saying thanks for talking and she was sorry to bother me. I just responded "you're welcome".
Obviously she still has the feels. We'll see if that translates into anything positive for the marriage.
Yesterday morning WW texted me in the morning,just my name with "..." at the end. WW tells me she's sorry (I think she means for bothering me) and that she's having a hard time. I validate, but find that statement a little annoying.
Then WW tells me she is just so sad. I say I'm sorry to hear that, WW says oh well and I leave it at that.
What the hell is she doing? Why is she coming to me when she's sad? The lake was "our thing", so that and the holiday weekend plays a big role.
I'm gonna type this out while it's fresh. WW woke me up at 11 PM and kept tickling me, then after several minutes got more physical, slapping my head and hitting me with the pillow. She wanted me to get out of the bed. Said I was playing a game and that I should be doing what she wants bc I created this marital mess. I told her it's not a game at all. She's saying that someone told me to do this. I told her several times that it's late and I need to go back to bed. Obviously she didn't care to keep crossing that boundary. She cried several times. Then we talked a little more.
Then I told her I need to go back to bed. She leaves the room the comes back in to get in another word bc she's mad about sleeping in the other bedroom. So I finally say the word affair, and she's offended, says she didn't do anything wrong. I told her she was lying to herself and that she wouldn't be hiding her car and trying to get me to coerce me and a friend into not saying anything about it.
She denies this, of course, and I told her she was being like my dad (who is a horrible person). She got mad when I told her she was being like my dad when she told me i have to answer her calls bc it's her family plan. She told me I was being controlling and selfish about the bed. She doesn't like the word affair at all and Backdoor admitted to it. At the end of the 2 hour convo she wants to know who all I have told about her affair. I tell her I don't feel comfortable telling her bc I don't trust her right now. She says that I'm playing a game by saying that, and that she's been open with me and telling me things. I tell her she's not being honest with me, (she didn't admit to the money she's hiding). I say there's still secrets and she assumed I meant the affair so I reminded her that's not what I'm talking about. She didn't tell me anything new, so I didn't know what she meant.
She cried several times and blamed me for everything, she brought me emailing and texting an ex 6 years ago again, I think to justify her actions. She accused me again of trying to "take everything". She told me that her mom told her sister that her mom thinks WW is very depressed. WW also accused me of recording her, which I wasn't. I think I need to draw the line on the physical contact and conversation times.
She also stated that she can't D right now bc of the house and car situation plus she has no paper income and no where to go.
Crazy night.
What specifically is your question? If it is to try and make sense of all this the answer is YOU CAN'T! WAWs in general, and WWs in particular, are completely irrational and illogical creatures. If you try to make sense of their behavior rationally and logically you'll get no where.
Remember, she is on an emotional roller-coaster too. She might be sad one minute, excited to be divorced the next. Angry at you for no reason the next. Temperamental doesn't even approach the right description. And you said it yourself above: "crazy".
I've told this story before, when I snooped on my wife the last time (this was about 6 weeks after BD), she was using one of the dating apps she'd bought for a month (waiting for it to expire) to tell younger guys (15-20 years her junior) that she thought they were cute. When I brought it up, I said "These guys are almost young enough to be your son! Did you really want one of them to respond and want to get together?" Her answer was "I don't know what I am doing!"
Likely your wife doesn't even have an explanation for her feelings, they are simply what they are at that given moment. And it causes her to send mixed and confusing messages.
When she was looking for comfort from me on Friday and Saturday, should I have declined? Or is it reinforcing our bond when she spills her guts to me? I am conflicted bc of her affair. Why should I be the shoulder to cry on? I have been alone through my pain.
When she was trying to "kick me out" of bed, she woke me up and tickled me for several minutes. Then I kind of tickled her back, but she wasn't too responsive to that. Then she escalated into more physical behavior and I had to tell her to stop. Then she went into fight mode. What the hell is she doing, thinking, feeling?
When she is being manipulative, do I "call her out" on that?
When she is asking who I've told about the affair, do I point out that she clearly thinks it is wrong? Why hide your car if you're doing nothing wrong?
When she goes all "you did this to me" to justify her affair, do I call her out? When she goes revisionist history on me, do I call her out?
You seem big on calling her out. Do you really think that will help you accomplish your goals? I'd avoid anything that you'd refer to as "calling her out".
Go back and read the detachment and validation threads. You need to listen. Acknowledge. Validate her feelings. But do not react or respond.
The bed thing was a tough one. I would have just defended myself (blocking her hands, or the hitting or kicking) until she got tired of it. If she moves on to more physical things, well you may need to threaten to call the police. Obviously you do not want to return in kind. Likely she was trying to provoke you to get you removed from the house because of domestic abuse. Do not take the bait.
I wonder if I should be her shoulder to cry on. Sounds like getting the benefits of a husband without the necessary reciprocation. She says she "wishes she could change her life". I'm not sure why she can't. WW says she's unhappy with her life. OK crazy lady.
OK well first try to understand this is not REGRET she's pouring out. She is NOT expressing interest in recon. This is just her starting to realize her new life isn't full of unicorns flying through the air pooping Skittles like she thought it would be. She's feeling bad about what she has done, but she still feels JUSTIFIED. So try to keep that in mind. It's a good opportunity to validate like Steve said, but don't use it to try and get your foot back in the door.
Eventually WW texted me saying thanks for talking and she was sorry to bother me. I just responded "you're welcome".
Perfect.
Obviously she still has the feels. We'll see if that translates into anything positive for the marriage.
Nope. You misunderstood what was going on. See above.
and that she's having a hard time. I validate, but find that statement a little annoying.
Validation isn't agreeing, it's just acknowledging her feelings. So you can find it "annoying" without it affecting your validation.
What the hell is she doing? Why is she coming to me when she's sad?
Probably because you are LISTENING. That's what validation does, it gives the other person the feeling that you are a listener and that you understand and are sympathetic. Basically it's a sign that your DB'ing is WORKING. Instead of being frustrated about it look at it as a baby step and pat yourself on the back!
I'm gonna type this out while it's fresh. WW woke me up at 11 PM and kept tickling me, then after several minutes got more physical, slapping my head and hitting me with the pillow. She wanted me to get out of the bed. Said I was playing a game and that I should be doing what she wants bc I created this marital mess. I told her it's not a game at all. She's saying that someone told me to do this. I told her several times that it's late and I need to go back to bed. Obviously she didn't care to keep crossing that boundary. She cried several times. Then we talked a little more.
Wow that sounds really passive/ aggressive. Does she have those tendencies?
She told me I was being controlling and selfish about the bed. She doesn't like the word affair at all and Backdoor admitted to it. At the end of the 2 hour convo she wants to know who all I have told about her affair.
Two HOURS???? No bueno.
I tell her I don't feel comfortable telling her bc I don't trust her right now. She says that I'm playing a game by saying that, and that she's been open with me and telling me things. I tell her she's not being honest with me, (she didn't admit to the money she's hiding). I say there's still secrets and she assumed I meant the affair so I reminded her that's not what I'm talking about. She didn't tell me anything new, so I didn't know what she meant.
So basically you abandoned your DB'ing and went off the rails. Well that's a big backslide to be sure. Time to get back on the horse. Remember- LISTEN and VALIDATE. Nothing more. This isn't the time for you to share feelings and such.
I think I need to draw the line on the physical contact and conversation times.
Definitely.
This is just her starting to realize her new life isn't full of unicorns flying through the air pooping Skittles like she thought it would be.
So good AS!
You seem big on calling her out. Do you really think that will help you accomplish your goals? I'd avoid anything that you'd refer to as "calling her out".
I'm an argumentative person by nature...I haven't been doing. But even though she's having the affair, just stay away from that?
I haven't seen a definitive guide on dealing with the WW, and I saw a post how you should not validate a WW like you would a WAW. So I'm confused there.
Go back and read the detachment and validation threads. You need to listen. Acknowledge. Validate her feelings. But do not react or respond.
Ok, thanks.
The bed thing was a tough one. I would have just defended myself (blocking her hands, or the hitting or kicking) until she got tired of it. If she moves on to more physical things, well you may need to threaten to call the police. Obviously you do not want to return in kind. Likely she was trying to provoke you to get you removed from the house because of domestic abuse. Do not take the bait.
Well at first it seemed playful and almost affectionate. I know I want to believe that too, so I'm careful to not believe it.
[quote=Steve85]I haven't seen a definitive guide on dealing with the WW, and I saw a post how you should not validate a WW like you would a WAW. So I'm confused there.
I think sandi says this. However, I think that is only when there is open disrespect. Don't validate open disrespect. I won't speak for sandi, but I think in your sitch, listening and validating is the key. And do no mention the A. That is pressure and pursuit. Either it will die, or she will leave you for OM. More than likely the first. Now, if her infidelity is not something that you can get over, then you should move forward with D.
Nope. You misunderstood what was going on. See above.
Doh. I have to temper my desires, they influence my thoughts.
Wow that sounds really passive/ aggressive. Does she have those tendencies?
Not typically, but she is acting way out of her moral code right now. And she is certainly struggling with her self image, spewing nonsense, and rewriting history all while being sad and wringing her hands over how people perceive her.
I probably should have just said no to the interaction. It was dumb that she woke me up in the first place. It took another hour to me to fall back asleep.
So basically you abandoned your DB'ing and went off the rails. Well that's a big backslide to be sure. Time to get back on the horse. Remember- LISTEN and VALIDATE. Nothing more. This isn't the time for you to share feelings and such.
Doh. So how do I respond when she asks who I've told? "Nunya"? (as in nunya bidness)
Small update from last night:
Talked to WW on phone around 7 PM, maybe I shouldn't have. First thing, she asks "Where are you"? I said "hanging out". I use this response and the "nothing/nowhere" response as casually as if someone had asked me "what's up".
She wanted to know if I'd move a trailer, I had already agreed so I confirmed I would.
Got home from GAL, was reading and went out to eat w/ my sis. Shower, bed, WW is folding laundry in MB, I get in bed and decide to fold a couple things too. She put some of my clothes away actually. She asks "where are you going out so late". I reply just with friends. She didn't say anything about me getting in bed and she got her pillows out of the other bedroom.
Eventually, kind of late, about an 1.5 hours after I fell asleep she moved to the front bedroom. She was disturbed by a late night notification on my phone, I could feel her turn when it buzzed.
One good thing from GAL w/ my sis: I brought up how WW asked me "how do you do it?" in terms of going to the lake and living my normal life. If she says anything like this again I'm going to remind her that I have been getting help, counseling, reading. I'm not over our situation. I need help rephrasing this so it's not TMI or pursuit.
How do you do it?
Your response: It keeps my mind off of our situation when I stay busy.
A couple other things:
-anniversary coming up soon, keep quiet right?
-I have been going out of town since the beginning of May to the lake. Do I need to be at home or just keep doing what I/we would normally be doing?
-when she tells me her feelings of sadness, just validate right?
Update from today:
WW really needed to call me 3 times in a row to find... air mattress. Told her it's not at home, she informs me her sister's engagement party is tomorrow and that it's going to be really hard for her. Phone call highlights:
--said she never stopped being open with me...while we were married (we still are), even though I hurt her and threw her heart around
-questioned why I had air mattress at the lake, asked how many people, which friends, did I take a girl, was one of my sister's friends there (she views this friend as a threat); says she doesn't care if that girl was there (which is obviously why you brought it up)
-she gets mad that I won't answer, I tell her I'm confused why this matters
-I tell her I'm going to get going several times, she extends conversation several times, asking "can we talk for just a minute"?
-says "this seems like it is really easy for you". I'm just curious. I tell her it's not with a story from my past. She tells me that it is hard for, b/c it's "what you're used to", and it's weird when you're not doing what you're used to.
-a lot of smalltalk
-I go to end conversation a 3rd time, she asks if I've told her parents about her affair. Said she'd rather them not know.
-I asks If I blame her for "that" (her affair), says "do you think I'm bad"? She says she thinks it "looks bad, but what else was I supposed to do"? I just validated this, maybe I was wrong.
-was worried that I was going to try to "mess her up bc of it", and got defensive when I don't quickly respond. Cried and said "I don't want to be screwed over". "I don't know if you're not thinking about me at all". Then she starts bawling (crying).
Then we met in person at a Panera, here's the highlights:
-WW cried a lot, she is sad, how is this "happening to her"?
-WW hates me but loves/cares about me, but doesn't love me
-WW won't have anywhere to live, won't be able to get a loan for anything
-WW says this is very hard
-WW stated (again) that I am doing fine on my own. I informed her that I have feelings too but that I am dealing with them, reading, getting help, talking to people.
-Her mom is mad at her b/c her uncles helped us with a lot of work (for free) and they will be at the party tomorrow
-asked who I've told about her affair. I informed her that she's in a relationship w/ someone else so we aren't freely exchanging info
-we hugged once inside, she initiated a hug before we left
-I validated a lot of feelings, asked her questions about them
-she reiterated before she left that it's going to be hard to be around family tomorrow, so I told her "why don't you just tell them"?
-mad at my friend for discussing her affair with someone else
-wants to know what my mom, dad, and sister all think/say about her/the situation
-stated how it's hard b/c she "doesn't believe in divorce" and she "meant her vows to love me" but that she doesn't love me right now...
I also told her that the door is still open for her, but that I can't control what she does and I won't try. I kinda wanted to "open a window" without pursuing, this was on the advice of my counselor. Maybe this was wrong, pursuit, R talk. I dunno.
Update from today:
WW really needed to call me 3 times in a row to find... air mattress. Told her it's not at home, she informs me her sister's engagement party is tomorrow and that it's going to be really hard for her. Phone call highlights:
--said she never stopped being open with me...while we were married (we still are), even though I hurt her and threw her heart around
-questioned why I had air mattress at the lake, asked how many people, which friends, did I take a girl, was one of my sister's friends there (she views this friend as a threat); says she doesn't care if that girl was there (which is obviously why you brought it up)
-she gets mad that I won't answer, I tell her I'm confused why this matters
-I tell her I'm going to get going several times, she extends conversation several times, asking "can we talk for just a minute"?
-says "this seems like it is really easy for you". I'm just curious. I tell her it's not with a story from my past. She tells me that it is hard for, b/c it's "what you're used to", and it's weird when you're not doing what you're used to.
-a lot of smalltalk
-I go to end conversation a 3rd time, she asks if I've told her parents about her affair. Said she'd rather them not know.
-I asks If I blame her for "that" (her affair), says "do you think I'm bad"? She says she thinks it "looks bad, but what else was I supposed to do"? I just validated this, maybe I was wrong.
-was worried that I was going to try to "mess her up bc of it", and got defensive when I don't quickly respond. Cried and said "I don't want to be screwed over". "I don't know if you're not thinking about me at all". Then she starts bawling (crying).
Then we met in person at a Panera, here's the highlights:
-WW cried a lot, she is sad, how is this "happening to her"?
-WW hates me but loves/cares about me, but doesn't love me
-WW won't have anywhere to live, won't be able to get a loan for anything
-WW says this is very hard
-WW stated (again) that I am doing fine on my own. I informed her that I have feelings too but that I am dealing with them, reading, getting help, talking to people.
-Her mom is mad at her b/c her uncles helped us with a lot of work (for free) and they will be at the party tomorrow
-asked who I've told about her affair. I informed her that she's in a relationship w/ someone else so we aren't freely exchanging info
-we hugged once inside, she initiated a hug before we left
-I validated a lot of feelings, asked her questions about them
-she reiterated before she left that it's going to be hard to be around family tomorrow, so I told her "why don't you just tell them"?
-mad at my friend for discussing her affair with someone else
-wants to know what my mom, dad, and sister all think/say about her/the situation
-stated how it's hard b/c she "doesn't believe in divorce" and she "meant her vows to love me" but that she doesn't love me right now...
Please don't validate bad behaviour. It's like rewarding a child for stealing sweets.
The effects of her waywardness has to hit home. So the attitude is you did the crime noW do the time.
You wouldn't validate a mugger who steals your wallet or forgive them whilst they are still mugging you.
She is trying to minimise the effect of her behaviour on her.
So STFU if you can't say "serves you right" (in a nicer way perhaps. And shorten these convos.
Seriously, this is clearly trying to execute plan B.
My thoughts
V
It is all her concern for herself. Every bit of it is about her!
I feel like we're getting closer. I texted WW about a house key, she called me and we talked on the phone for 1 hour. She says she can't force herself to try, cares about me, but isn't "in love". I just validated her feelings. She is talking to me a lot.
I told her that her affair is wrong today, she asked me if I thought it was wrong yesterday and I didn't respond but she commented on my facial reaction, which said what I thought. She said she wouldn't call it that bc I controlled her into doing it by being a bad H.
I also stopped her when she got nasty with me and simply said "I'm not going to be talked to like that, I'll leave if I need to." The conversation got better.
Did I validate a bad behavior?
My counselor says it's fine not to pursue, but to open a window for her to come back.
Vanilla, which part were you referencing I should say "serves you right" to?
I told her that her affair is wrong today, she asked me if I thought it was wrong yesterday and I didn't respond but she commented on my facial reaction, which said what I thought. She said she wouldn't call it that bc I controlled her into doing it by being a bad H.
Call it what, an affair? DO NOT let her lay the blame for HER affair on you. That is projection at its finest. This is a good indicator she knows full well it isnt your fault and shes trying to dodge that guild by convincing herself its your fault.
My WW did the same thing, and still does, and she is in a full blow R with OM.
Dont buy that crap. Good on you for standing up for yourself.
I feel like were getting closer. I texted WW about a house key, she called me and we talked on the phone for 1 hour. She says she cant force herself to try, cares about me, but isnt "in love". I just validated her feelings. She is talking to me a lot.
How do you feel you are getting closer?!?! She is banging another dude, telling you she does not want to be with you, and justifying her affair. You are not getting closer, that is just what you want to believe. It is what she wants you to believe too because it makes it easier to continue doing what she is doing.
And her saying she cannot force herself to try is a cop out too. My W pulled the same crap. Said she tried to try but just could not. No, you cannot try to try. You either do or do not. And I have not met anyone that did not have to force themselves to try something they did not want to do. She just does not want to try...
It is all her concern for herself. Every bit of it is about her!
Ok. I need to do what works, but what do I do or say about these things she is saying? Validate feelings, stand ground on affair being solely her choice and wrong?
It is all her concern for herself. Every bit of it is about her!
Ok. I need to do what works, but what do I do or say about these things she is saying? Validate feelings, stand ground on affair being solely her choice and wrong?
Let her talk, listen, dont say much. Dont dig yourself deeper, dont let yourself be taken advantage of.
Are you truly following ALL of Sandi's rules?
Print them out or type them into a post, and rate yourself on how well you are doing with each one. Those 37 rules are gold. Follow them.
Honey
You aren't 'getting closer', you are getting further apart. She is 'banging another dude'!
It's a big bang with a cartload of dynamite.
There is no 'getting closer' whilst she is in an A unless you agree with poly.
As I said you are being mugged and talking a lot, that's not closer. You are Plan B.
Her A is her responsibility not yours and these backlashes are the consequences. In actual fact you now know she is doing this to keep you quiet on her A. In my view you can be as open as you like about this and never lie to cover it up. If asked you say 'my WW is having a PA with dingbat' and you also tell her that you will never lie about it.
Stop validating her behaviour and feelings about it. She clearly only cares about herself. Because you are validating her she thinks quite clearly (she said so) that you are OK with it.
And you seem to be telling her she can come home no consequences?
Stop talking on the phone for an hour!
Let her suffer the consequences of her behaviour and feel sorry for herself then take action to atone to you.
All I see is a H enabling his W affair and removing the consequences.
V
You are being triangulated otherwise known as 'the pick me dance'.
And you are dancing away, competing with dingbat dung features who is having sex with WW. She must feel so wanted, two guys competing.
I would love to see you get angry at this.
V
It is all her concern for herself. Every bit of it is about her!
Ok. I need to do what works, but what do I do or say about these things she is saying?
Get disgusted and STFU.Validate feelings,
stop validating behaviour and feelings on the A and the consequences of it. Hold her feet to the fire.
I think some work on validation and what it is may be in order. Validate things that are of real concern, such as her car broke down- That's rough WW, I am sure WW you can sort it as you are resourceful. She broke her toe "ouch WW that must really hurt"
But "my A is going too well" that you do not validate.stand ground on affair being solely her choice and wrong?
You are really asking this? Is her A really your fault? Did you cause her knickers to fall off for a dingbat scumbag to deposit his comings and goings?
Do you not think her A is wrong? Are you OK with her A?
V
overrnbw, I read all of this but didn't have time to respond. You got some good feedback from OK, mtb, sandi and V. You need to proceed with caution.
First, WW always blame their husbands for everything. She could have bought bomb making materials, and blew up a daycare center, and she would still somehow blame it on you. This is how they justify their actions. Blame, deflect, redirect, deny, lie. Whatever they have to do to be able to lay their head on their pillows at night and go to sleep.
I was in a sex-starved marriage for years. I could have begged every night for it, and never got it. But that in no way justified me to go out and sleep with someone else. Yes cheaters say that being denied for so long DOES justify it, but right thinking people do not.
But be careful in getting to hopeful. This feels like she is trying to make sure good old overrnbw is still underneath her as a safety net. WWs do not like to be dangling from a trapeze with no safety net. When you start detaching properly she will feel the lack of control over you and she will freak out. She wants her Plan B secured, and by you detaching she feels that the safety net is slowly being removed. It makes her feel vulnerable.
So take all of this with a huge grain of salt. And for pete's sake stop telling her that her affair is wrong. She knows it is wrong. She may never say it or admit it, and she may always try to blame you, but that in no way means that she doesn't realize it is wrong. Telling her it is, over and over again, is pursuit. I know opinions vary on this, but this my opinion. If you DB right you don't even have to address the affair if and until she is really ready to R.
So those are my thoughts. I am sure you enjoyed the fact that you had your wife's attention during those discussions. But as others have said, she is in open rebellion to the MR, so discussing it really does nothing until she is no longer rebelling.
It is all her concern for herself. Every bit of it is about her!
Ok. I need to do what works, but what do I do or say about these things she is saying? Validate feelings, stand ground on affair being solely her choice and wrong?
Let her talk, listen, dont say much. Dont dig yourself deeper, dont let yourself be taken advantage of.
Are you truly following ALL of Sandi's rules?
Print them out or type them into a post, and rate yourself on how well you are doing with each one. Those 37 rules are gold. Follow them.
I'm going to bars sometimes with friends.
I kinda have talked R a little, but in response to her bringing up things (which is OK, right?). I haven't said "let's try" or tried begging, pleading, reasoning in over a month. I went LRT about a month ago.
You are being triangulated otherwise known as 'the pick me dance'.
And you are dancing away, competing with dingbat dung features who is having sex with WW. She must feel so wanted, two guys competing.
I would love to see you get angry at this.
V
How am I competing? Pursuit has stopped, unless I missed something...
The rest of your posts I agree with and thank you for writing!
But be careful in getting to hopeful. This feels like she is trying to make sure good old overrnbw is still underneath her as a safety net. WWs do not like to be dangling from a trapeze with no safety net. When you start detaching properly she will feel the lack of control over you and she will freak out. She wants her Plan B secured, and by you detaching she feels that the safety net is slowly being removed. It makes her feel vulnerable.
You're right. I need to back off and not be there for long convos. Quick, brief, see ya later.
So take all of this with a huge grain of salt. And for pete's sake stop telling her that her affair is wrong.
She asked me if I thought it was wrong, that's why I brought it up.
Good to hear from you Steve.
You are being triangulated otherwise known as 'the pick me dance'.
And you are dancing away, competing with dingbat dung features who is having sex with WW. She must feel so wanted, two guys competing.
I would love to see you get angry at this.
V
How am I competing? Pursuit has stopped, unless I missed something...
The rest of your posts I agree with and thank you for writing!
Even if you think you aren't competing or pursuing. You are.
You are having 1 HR convos.
And WW thinks you are and is acting as if you are.
V
One other thing your long update made me think of, and this is a caution for newbies that are just starting their journey, your W being concerned about what other people think when hearing about her affair is why it is wise NOT to talk to family and friends about the sitch.
I really believe that discussing the sitch with family and friends later because a roadblock to R. It is hard enough for the WAS to come back after all of the water under the bridge between them and LBS. That is compounded when family and friends are brought into it because now the WAS has to deal with those relationships when trying to come back to.
I made a lot of mistakes in my sitch, but the one thing I heard from anti-divorce experts early on was to NOT bring family and friends into it for this very reason. I know in my sitch, if I had gone to my parents and siblings and others, it would have driven my W even further away than she already was, and probably would have destroyed any change of R.
Obviously for those that have already done this it is too late, that toothpaste is already out of the tube, but for any one new to this think very hard about confiding in people that later will have problems dealing with your WAS in their own relationship with them.
Steve, in most circumstances I agree with you but there are sitches where keeping quiet is not helpful.
Firstly in abuse sitches then the full extent of the abuse including an A has to be discussed. Otherwise the target lacks the support they need.
When a wayward is living with an OP and is flagrant about an A then it's obvious anyway.
I never believe in lies and denial of the truth, ever. The LBS denies their own reality. Much of the time it's no one's business but the couple involved so on a need to know basis, most don't but they will speculate anyway.
And in some cases merely saying that you reserve the right to tell the truth and you will never lie is a shocker to the wayward. Whether you do or not is a personal decision.
As for telling the A partners spouse, opinions are very mixed on it. My own stance is don't but that's not everyone'S view.
I have NO sympathy for cheaters. None, zero, nilch and they should be dropped from a great height on their entitled noggins. Disclosing to the world their nasty cheater ways is the right of the numpty cheated on.
And anyone who is the spouse of a cheater should get tested for STD and make it very clear to the wayward that they have done this because the cheater can't be trusted.
Waywards are cheaters that's the unvarnished truth. By cheating they put the numpties' health at risk. That is nasty.
V
V, I am not sure I disagree with anything you just said. Nor do I think it necessarily contradicts what I posted above. I too believe cheating is completely abhorrent. And I am against lying and denying the truth. But that doesn't mean the LBS has to go shouting from the rooftops about the cheating spouse either. Obviously they can, that is within their rights, but it severely limits their chances of reconciliation. And while you and I might think "why would they want to reconcile with a cheater?!", that too is within the rights of the LBS to decide.
You are being triangulated otherwise known as 'the pick me dance'.
And you are dancing away, competing with dingbat dung features who is having sex with WW. She must feel so wanted, two guys competing.
I would love to see you get angry at this.
V
How am I competing? Pursuit has stopped, unless I missed something...
The rest of your posts I agree with and thank you for writing!
Even if you think you aren't competing or pursuing. You are.
You are having 1 HR convos.
And WW thinks you are and is acting as if you are.
V
Ok thank you. Any pursuit besides the long convos? I am gonna stomp that out like a cockroach.
And Vanilla, on yesterday's convo, I tried to get off the phone 3 times and she stopped me. I just need to be firmer?
I really want to confide in her parents, but I'm not really ready to do that. I love them, they love me - but they love their daughter more. I wonder if they believe she isn't having an affair through this all...WW even asked me yesterday not to tell them, which makes me think I ought to do it. WW is in fantasyland. But again, I'm not talking to them.
Her mom told her sister, who told WW who told me, that her mom thinks WW is depressed. She very well may be, from what I can read.
Anyways, thanks for all the help guys - SERIOUSLY. I'm going to work on not validating her BS and cutting these convos short. Not going to be your "H on the side".
I really want to confide in her parents, but I'm not really ready to do that. I love them, they love me - but they love their daughter more. I wonder if they believe she isn't having an affair through this all...WW even asked me yesterday not to tell them, which makes me think I ought to do it. WW is in fantasyland. But again, I'm not talking to them.
Her mom told her sister, who told WW who told me, that her mom thinks WW is depressed. She very well may be, from what I can read.
Anyways, thanks for all the help guys - SERIOUSLY. I'm going to work on not validating her BS and cutting these convos short. Not going to be your "H on the side".
Yeah. No good could come from you telling her parents.
Ovr,
Another post about telling her parents. Why are you so obsessed with telling her parents. You have gotten an abundance of advice why that won't be a good idea, but you keep revisiting the idea.
So something is telling me that you think a message like that to her parents will change your switch. It will change your switch and not in the direction you want.
Work on working on you. Stop trying to control your M, R and sitch. It's hard we all know. It will take time, you cant rush this process. It will take hard Work and discipline.
Your worth is just as valuable as your W worth and once your start living and treating yourself that way, your W will have to do the same.
Ovr,
Another post about telling her parents. Why are you so obsessed with telling her parents. You have gotten an abundance of advice why that won't be a good idea, but you keep revisiting the idea.
So something is telling me that you think a message like that to her parents will change your switch. It will change your switch and not in the direction you want.
Work on working on you. Stop trying to control your M, R and sitch. It's hard we all know. It will take time, you cant rush this process. It will take hard Work and discipline.
Your worth is just as valuable as your W worth and once your start living and treating yourself that way, your W will have to do the same.
I guess I'm obsessed with b/c she asked me not to tell them. I think I posted earlier that but I'm not sure.
The worst part about posting that is that it derails my thread. I really don't mean to aggravate, but sometimes I gotta "vent" or get some garbage out of my head. Sorry you guys.
Ovr,
You dont have to be sorry. I wasn't trying to be hard on you.
It's your thread and if you need to vent go ahead.
I'm just want to try and save you some heart ache if I can. Keep posting to vent it is very therapeutic.
And Vanilla, on yesterday's convo, I tried to get off the phone 3 times and she stopped me. I just need to be firmer?
Yes the way to do it is to say 'going now' 'bye' and put the phone down.
V
And Vanilla, on yesterday's convo, I tried to get off the phone 3 times and she stopped me. I just need to be firmer?
Yes the way to do it is to say 'going now' 'bye' and put the phone down.
V
And stick to that until the day (that may never come) that she wants to talk R, right?
My view is straight up, they are her parents. Don't lie to them by saying or omission if they ask.
So if they ask you say.
Otherwise you shoot yourself in the foot and then the other one.
V
How do I handle upcoming anniversary as well? Mention nothing right?
My counselor says to leave a little note. But she advised me to tell WW I stayed in town bc of her this weekend so that WW knows I care how she is. I dunno what you all think about that advice.
And Vanilla, on yesterday's convo, I tried to get off the phone 3 times and she stopped me. I just need to be firmer?
Yes the way to do it is to say 'going now' 'bye' and put the phone down.
V
And stick to that until the day (that may never come) that she wants to talk R, right?
Depends on the R talk, first Q is are you still with dirt bag? If yes then we don't have an R to talk about.
V
How do I handle upcoming anniversary as well? Mention nothing right?
My counselor says to leave a little note. But she advised me to tell WW I stayed in town bc of her this weekend so that WW knows I care how she is. I dunno what you all think about that advice.
I guess you follow your counsellor, they know more about you. Trouble is knows you care that is why you talk to her for hours at a time. I am not saying bring rude or passive aggressive. Friendly neighbour strategy.
But why celebrate an M that's done? A note might be seen as trying to guilt trip unsure.
I think with this one, it's a fine line. Other anniversaries are easier.
V
I guess you follow your counsellor, they know more about you. Trouble is knows you care that is why you talk to her for hours at a time.
What does the bolded part mean? Sorry V...
But why celebrate an M that's done? A note might be seen as trying to guilt trip unsure.
That's how I feel too. I'll probably be wrong no matter what I do.
I think with this one, it's a fine line. Other anniversaries are easier.
V
Yes, it's hard to say.
Sorry there is a she missing in the bold bit. Your WW knows you care a great deal and aren't detached because you interact so much.
V
Ovr,
Last year for my W and I anniversary I asked the same question here on thus forum. Should I give her something. Well, before I found this site, I went out and bought her a bracelet. Well I got mixed reviews from the forum. So I had already bought the bracelet and deep down, I wanted it to have an impact. On our anniversary I gave her the bracelet. She looked at that bracelet and not a bit of excitement came out her. It was a surreal moment. She didn't give a f@$!. That hurt more than hell. After recon, we brought that bracelet back to the store, I got a chain, that I love and I'm wearing it now, and she got some different things.
My point is that gift had no impact on her changing her mind. The only thing she saw of value were my actions. I could of spent all kind of money and got all kind of gifts, she only saw my actions on that day as trying to hold on too something that she didn't want (the M), controlling her and not validating her feelings. That gift represented me not understanding that for her the M was over and wasn't because of me not getting her gifts it was because she had resentment.
After that day, and that gift I just couldn't allow myself to seem weak like that anymore.
Your W is not mentally in your M, so getting her something that is dead in her eyes will IMO come off as pursuit and weak.
The best thing you can get her on that day, is telling her "Happy anniversary", with a smile, be strong and confident. And go about your day.
Ovr,
Last year for my W and I anniversary I asked the same question here on thus forum. Should I give her something. Well, before I found this site, I went out and bought her a bracelet. Well I got mixed reviews from the forum. So I had already bought the bracelet and deep down, I wanted it to have an impact. On our anniversary I gave her the bracelet. She looked at that bracelet and not a bit of excitement came out her. It was a surreal moment. She didn't give a f@$!. That hurt more than hell. After recon, we brought that bracelet back to the store, I got a chain, that I love and I'm wearing it now, and she got some different things.
My point is that gift had no impact on her changing her mind. The only thing she saw of value were my actions. I could of spent all kind of money and got all kind of gifts, she only saw my actions on that day as trying to hold on too something that she didn't want (the M), controlling her and not validating her feelings. That gift represented me not understanding that for her the M was over and wasn't because of me not getting her gifts it was because she had resentment.
After that day, and that gift I just couldn't allow myself to seem weak like that anymore.
Your W is not mentally in your M, so getting her something that is dead in her eyes will IMO come off as pursuit and weak.
The best thing you can get her on that day, is telling her "Happy anniversary", with a smile, be strong and confident. And go about your day.
I wasn't going to get her anything or even mention the anniversary. My counselor said to write a small note. So that's what I'm looking for. But I kinda think I'm better off without it.
Sorry there is a she missing in the bold bit. Your WW knows you care a great deal and aren't detached because you interact so much.
V
We don't interact much, just the last couple Fridays she's called me a lot with her sadness. She was accusing me of ignoring her, remember, and said I was playing a game. She was asking me how I was doing so well through everything. I think I was, at least somewhat, detached.
I may just stay the night out on our anniversary, don't even go home. But maybe I'm better just making it a regular night, nothing different for me.
A couple of folks accidentally posted in the old thread, but I'll continue here. Here's the latest strange, strange turn:
Last night she woke me up. Lots of floppy hand movements leg movements and making noise playing on her phone loudly. After it woke me up I just tried to go back to sleep but then she was tapping on me a couple of times trying to give me to wake up. Then she asked me a couple of times to hold her and I responded why the first time, she said she's sad. So I said that [censored] and she moaned and whined a couple of things. Then she asked again if I would hold her and I said I don't know. Then I didn't end up doing it. She's sad b/c of our anniversary she says. Ok...
One of the time she woke me up she asked me if we can talk but I said no it's late I'm going to bed. So she says well just a couple of minutes? So I didn't respond she says please couple more times. I go to fall back asleep and she goes back into the breathing loudly and moving around all the time routine.
Then this morning she wakes up early before me and starts doing that again making noise moving around. At one point she even moved closer to me in bed I'm like what the hell. So I decide to just get up she stopped me and asked me for a hug I said I don't know (this is my way of saying "No", if you can't tell). And I tried to walk out the door before she asked again and I told her I don't know. Then I'm about to leave and she sound me to hang on for a second to talk and she freaks out cuz she thinks I'm leaving when I was actually just going to get something out of the car. So I come back inside she tells me how she's sad but again but doesn't want my pity. Okay.
Then she asked me if I want to hang out and go to the pool tonight and I don't respond immediately so she gets mad and and says it's okay don't worry about it. So I told her I won't be in a part-time relationship. I asked her then what tomorrow then I go back to not talking to you? And she says well you want me to decide if I'm going to be with you today. So I just say no I'm just telling you what I won't do. And then I go to leave and she asked for another hug. I told her she can hug me and she came over and gave me a hug and I just kind of gave her a little bit of a hug, only one arm, not a good one back after she hugged me and cried.
Now today she asks again about going to the pool and getting dinner. I agreed, but I'm very skeptical.
She seems very immature. Was she like that when you met her?
Not really Steve. Full ride D1 athlete, driven, we have a business together, great decision maker until recently. I think she's having a major disconnect with her self image, and doesn't know how to deal with anything that isn't a success. Add in some old, serious issues that have never been dealt with to the new issues she wants to run away from.
Here's a recap from last night:
She was asking where I go and who I'm with. I stuck with friends for my answer.
She asked if I was hanging out with a girl.
She asked if I talked to my best man a lot about our situation. I guess she thinks thats who I'd talk to the most but it hasn't been.
She asked me if I told anyone about us going out tonight, I said no and she said she told her sister and one friend she was going out with me.
She got a new phone and we went to the att store.She was kinda being rude at the cell phone store .
She played on the new phone a lot when we got home so I turned on the TV and fell asleep. Seems like she was on her phone a lot, but maybe that was planned distraction for the situation.
She asked me if it was weird with this being our anniversary. I laughed and said yes.
She asked me about wearing my ring last night, which I thought was strange. Asked when I stopped wearing it, she hasn't worn hers in forever, except to work.
We played the accidentally touching each other game. She's sleeping pretty lightly and so am I bc I woke up a few times and she was awake each time. Or maybe she woke first I'm not sure.
She played the obnoxious phone noises and rustling in bed game again, it woke me up again about 30 min after falling asleep but eh, the TV was still on anyways.
Wasn't bad, wasn't great overall. I thanked her last night for asking me and we hugged this morning.
I'm still skeptical.
So I told her I won't be in a part-time relationship
Not sure what the others think...
I would not bring up the relationship. It is ok to refuse to hang out with her. But do not complain about the relationship. Just say you have other plans, and do have other plans. She needs to see that she is no longer your top priority without you rubbing it in.
Same thing regarding her waking you up in the middle of the night. If you think that she needs help and you are willing to listen to her, why not. But if you think she is just manipulating you, you can ask her not to wake you up because you need to sleep. Just do not base your behavior on what you think or want from your relationship.
Two nights in a row back in the bed too...oh boy...
I think I need to keep doing what I'm doing, getting a life, keeping my distance and skepticism. I think I'll wait to see if she's staying at home before I make any changes, but I'm surprised and confused now. She hasn't expressed remorse for her actions, but I think she is still not fully, or maybe even partially, in reality.
So I told her I won't be in a part-time relationship
Not sure what the others think...
I would not bring up the relationship. It is ok to refuse to hang out with her. But do not complain about the relationship. Just say you have other plans, and do have other plans. She needs to see that she is no longer your top priority without you rubbing it in.
Same thing regarding her waking you up in the middle of the night. If you think that she needs help and you are willing to listen to her, why not. But if you think she is just manipulating you, you can ask her not to wake you up because you need to sleep. Just do not base your behavior on what you think or want from your relationship.
Thanks for the reply. Maybe I made a mistake by saying that, but my point to her is that I won't share, or play second fiddle. I believe she needs to hear that in some form or fashion.
I have set some boundaries on the waking up thing, and I believe I have posted it (not yelling at you - I have posted a lot!). I think she wants attention more than manipulating, but I can't assume anything.
So I told her I won't be in a part-time relationship
Not sure what the others think...
I would not bring up the relationship. It is ok to refuse to hang out with her. But do not complain about the relationship. Just say you have other plans, and do have other plans. She needs to see that she is no longer your top priority without you rubbing it in.
Same thing regarding her waking you up in the middle of the night. If you think that she needs help and you are willing to listen to her, why not. But if you think she is just manipulating you, you can ask her not to wake you up because you need to sleep. Just do not base your behavior on what you think or want from your relationship.
Thanks for the reply. Maybe I made a mistake by saying that, but my point to her is that I won't share, or play second fiddle. I believe she needs to hear that in some form or fashion.
I have set some boundaries on the waking up thing, and I believe I have posted it (not yelling at you - I have posted a lot!). I think she wants attention more than manipulating, but I can't assume anything.
No she doesn't need to hear it. Words are cheap. She needs to see it. You need to act like you wont play second fiddle nor share. In fact, if you think she is in a PA then put your foot down and tell her SHE is no longer welcome in the marital bed. I know you returned to the bed. But SHOW her you won't share or be second fiddle.
Action not words.
I wouldn't accept or refuse. Just have plans.
She is behaving like a teenager in this. With teenage boyfriend dramas. If it was I then I would be tempted to say 'grow up'.
Quite odd.
Stay in the MBR.
V
I wouldn't accept or refuse. Just have plans.
She is behaving like a teenager in this. With teenage boyfriend dramas. If it was I then I would be tempted to say 'grow up'.
Quite odd.
Stay in the MBR.
V
V, what do you mean when you say "I wouldn't accept or refuse". What are you speaking in regards to?
Here's a recap from last night:
She was asking where I go and who I'm with. I stuck with friends for my answer.
Great answer
She asked if I was hanging out with a girl.
The answer is no but really not saying that again so if you ask I will not respond WW.
She asked if I talked to my best man a lot about our situation. I guess she thinks thats who I'd talk to the most but it hasn't been.
Response, naturally I talk to my best friend as you talk to yours.
She asked me if I told anyone about us going out tonight, I said no and she said she told her sister and one friend she was going out with me.
STFU
She got a new phone and we went to the att store.She was kinda being rude at the cell phone store .
STFU and walk away. Tell her 'I find that rude, I am leaving'
She played on the new phone a lot when we got home so I turned on the TV and fell asleep.
STFU and walk away. Tell her 'I find that rude, I am leaving'
Seems like she was on her phone a lot, but maybe that was planned distraction for the situation.
STFU and walk away. Tell her 'I find that rude, I am leaving'
She asked me if it was weird with this being our anniversary. I laughed and said yes.
STFU and walk away. Tell her 'I find that rude, I am leaving'
She asked me about wearing my ring last night, which I thought was strange. Asked when I stopped wearing it, she hasn't worn hers in forever, except to work.
STFU and walk away.
We played the accidentally touching each other game. She's sleeping pretty lightly and so am I bc I woke up a few times and she was awake each time. Or maybe she woke first I'm not sure.
Stop.
She played the obnoxious phone noises and rustling in bed game again, it woke me up again about 30 min after falling asleep but eh, the TV was still on anyways.
Tell her 'I find that rude'
Wasn't bad, wasn't great overall. I thanked her last night for asking me and we hugged this morning.
Who was she contacting on her phone?
I'm still skeptical.
------------------------
I think this is cake eating somehow.
V
V,
I was skeptical on Monday. I even said (and maybe this was too much) to WW "I don't want to go out with you and then you're gone the next night". Which is 100% true.
Well, as feared and almost expected, she fled back to OM's place last night. I want to go no contact for a while, definitely need to get back to the good habits of no pursuit, no long convos, and GAL.
I'm thinking about staying away from home the next few nights but maybe that's too much GAL and not enough stability. I'll be out of town this weekend anyways.
WW is lying hardcore. I told my sister that WW said she was going swimming with Friend 1. My sister said "they put a snapchat of them at a pool". Well, WW was trying to support her story but I know where they really where - the OM's pool (apt complex). WW was deceitful, tried to make her story to me sound good but left out the obvious, wrong part. And she told me where she was going, I didn't ask.
Any more thoughts on handling the boundary she crossed?
FYI I'm not contacting her, but when our paths cross I want to make it clear she crossed a clearly stated boundary, that I wouldn't have been with her on our anniversary if she would have been honest with me.
Notes from counseling today:
-I'm still exhibiting NGS b/c I'm saying "I don't know" instead of "No" to soften the blows when WW asked for hugs or to be held.
-WW is lying and manipulating b/c she wants to keep me close to her (according to counselor)
-next time WW asks to do something I need to say that "I can't do that b/c I can't trust you, you hurt me and I can't let you keep doing that". Counselor wants me to put it like I know how she must have felt, in that my words were harsh and WW couldn't trust me. Now her words aren't safe for me either.
-talk about emotions, not facts
-counselor thinks WW is hurt and questioning her decisions.
-counselor says don't deliver any message with too much energy (even though her boundary crossing hurt) or the message can be overwhelmed
Just logging the big points here. I'd love to hear some opinions.
It's called cake eating.
And WW isn't questioning her decisions, she is having the time of her life with triangulation (otherwise called 'the pick me' dance).
I think you need a new counsellor, one that will help you more on enforcing your boundaries. You state the boundaries and then don't enforce them. Boundaries are useless without enforcement.
But awwwwwww of course, she 'gave' you time on your anniversary, pulling your strings.
And call her on her stupid scrambled eggs for brains nonsense.
The way is to start saying "really?" We both know the truth WW so I don't know why you bother with such nonsense"
. Then STFU and walk away.
"I think you should sleep on the sofa" when she texts an OM in the MBR.
She isn't doing this to keep you 'close', she is entitled and you are plan B. It's not you she wants, you are a soft option as often OM aren't really interested in a proper R. Your old M is dead, so work on you to be ready for the next phase.
I know my words seem harsh so I am adding big hugs.
V
I have no way/opportunity to enforce it yet, do I? Hadn't seen her until just tonight a few min ago.
Are you saying I should have said it upfront and been like nah I don't think so. That's how it's going to happen if I get another chance.
Harsh words don't scare me, I need to stay as aware as possible.
She went back to the front bedroom tonight. Sunday and Monday she stayed in the MBR. F me I got played.
I have no way/opportunity to enforce it yet, do I? Hadn't seen her until just tonight a few min ago.
Are you saying I should have said it upfront and been like nah I don't think so. That's how it's going to happen if I get another chance.
Harsh words don't scare me, I need to stay as aware as possible.
She went back to the front bedroom tonight. Sunday and Monday she stayed in the MBR. F me I got played.
Yep to all that
V
Where to go from here? I don't really care to respond to her texts and calls today. Any reason I need to consider doing otherwise?
Notes from counseling today:
-I'm still exhibiting NGS b/c I'm saying "I don't know" instead of "No" to soften the blows when WW asked for hugs or to be held.
-WW is lying and manipulating b/c she wants to keep me close to her (according to counselor)
-next time WW asks to do something I need to say that "I can't do that b/c I can't trust you, you hurt me and I can't let you keep doing that". Counselor wants me to put it like I know how she must have felt, in that my words were harsh and WW couldn't trust me. Now her words aren't safe for me either.
-talk about emotions, not facts
-counselor thinks WW is hurt and questioning her decisions.
-counselor says don't deliver any message with too much energy (even though her boundary crossing hurt) or the message can be overwhelmed
Just logging the big points here. I'd love to hear some opinions.
Sounds like you have a good one there!! Keep up the good work, and institute what the C is telling you. Remember, you are trying to show her how attractive you are. Yeses and Noes incite respect and respect incites attractiveness. IDK is wishywashy, and does not command respect and therefore doesn''t help for attractiveness.
Notes from counseling today:
-I'm still exhibiting NGS b/c I'm saying "I don't know" instead of "No" to soften the blows when WW asked for hugs or to be held.
-WW is lying and manipulating b/c she wants to keep me close to her (according to counselor)
-next time WW asks to do something I need to say that "I can't do that b/c I can't trust you, you hurt me and I can't let you keep doing that". Counselor wants me to put it like I know how she must have felt, in that my words were harsh and WW couldn't trust me. Now her words aren't safe for me either.
-talk about emotions, not facts
-counselor thinks WW is hurt and questioning her decisions.
-counselor says don't deliver any message with too much energy (even though her boundary crossing hurt) or the message can be overwhelmed
Just logging the big points here. I'd love to hear some opinions.
Sounds like you have a good one there!! Keep up the good work, and institute what the C is telling you. Remember, you are trying to show her how attractive you are. Yeses and Noes incite respect and respect incites attractiveness. IDK is wishywashy, and does not command respect and therefore doesn''t help for attractiveness.
Thanks Steve, hopefully so.
IDK is totally NGS. Can't be scared that she isn't going to like what I say.
I can't believe I let myself have expectations that she would be hoenest and stay in the MBR. Beyond pissed. Going no contact for a little while for me.
WW got drunk yesterday afternoon and locked herself out of the house. Of course the only thing to do is to blow up my phone, text a bunch of times, and then call my office. I have been not answering her calls during work hours, and waited until I left work to respond, but WW already figured it out. I'm guessing this struggle was alcohol related.
I locked myself out on accident about 6 weeks ago and WW told me to climb in a window. Hopefully she took her own advice.
I had some GAL last night, tweren't bad. Talked about NGS and not worrying about making WW by telling the truth when she asks. I looked at truth as facts in the past and have always softened the emotion of it. My counselor wants me to work on this as well.
Where to go from here? I don't really care to respond to her texts and calls today. Any reason I need to consider doing otherwise?
Respond if it creates danger or damage. Otherwise if your boundary is 'ring me in an emergency at work only'.
Otherwise let WW suffer the consequences of her behaviour. If you can turn your personal phone off. You can compartmentalise.
Do this because it's necessary for your work not to be passive aggressive. Do this be a useful it's a boundary enforcement not punishment.
My thoughts
V
I wouldn't accept or refuse. Just have plans.
She is behaving like a teenager in this. With teenage boyfriend dramas. If it was I then I would be tempted to say 'grow up'.
Quite odd.
Stay in the MBR.
V
V, what do you mean when you say "I wouldn't accept or refuse". What are you speaking in regards to?
Her invites to go out.
As she is in teenage mode I doubt if you as an adult would enjoy teenage high jinx which are alcohol fuelled.
In order to have a good R then you will need emotional connection and alcohol gets in the way of true intamacy.
V
Just read someone else's post and it made me think of my situation. I haven't really been wearing my ring for over a month. WW asked me about it a week ago during anniversary "celebration"... Of course I wanted to say you took yours off and told me you wanted a divorce. WW also wears her ring to work, which I don't get.
Any thoughts whether I should wear it or not?
I would say wear it if you want, dont if you dont. But do it for yourself, not to get any reaction out of her.
It's a personal thing.
I wore mine until filing. Then I went out and got myself a pretty ring of my own.
Partly because I wasn't ready to date or be available.
Then my aged ma died so I wear one of her rings, now on my right hand. I also wear my ring from H1 who died.
So do the thing that feels right to you.
V
Ovr,
She is playing with you. A few points (some made buy others).
Start seeing the games (and don't engage) - accidental touching, flirty behaviour (including non-necessary convos). Let her be lonely in her new life.
I bought anniv presents. Buying creates guilt - remorse, but only do it if you respect the marriage and explain that. So do something small but preferably just leave a card and if she does not open it don't be upset. I was still 100% in pursuit mode and I'd probably tell myself not to get a thing. It's all opinion based.
She is putting the ring back on at work and asking you not to tell people as she knows what people will think - and they will!!!
I think at some points validation is good. But try validating not always in a caring way. Perhaps more plain speaking (i.e. not vindictive). Kind of ..sounds hard but I suppose those are the consequences for your actions..seems like you are going to have to deal with this.
In terms of talking to family. As I have said before, my take is only talk to those people you can trust not to get involved. You are telling people to help you cope. That is it. Don't throw her under the bus, but if she asks, say you talk to those who support you for you and you tell the truth. I think that is perhaps the best way to deal with it.
Keep the convos short. Like you are speaking to the neighbour who called about their cat, but you are busy. I used to find it best to say the following when she was in mid flow ...sorry I have to go, I will call later. Then keep repeating this and tell her and do put the phone down - then turn it off. Set up a standard response on your messaging to say ..cant talk at the moment.
You need to leave her to her own new life and see how she enjoys it. Not stay there with her - supporting her. I am telling you because I got it wrong too!!
Surfer.
Do you really want to end all this b.s.? Do you want to know the secret of how to get your W back? Do you really? I can tell you in three little words. I don't think you'll do it, but I can tell the secret. Let her go.
You have had some of the board's finest members posting, and I have seen nothing in their advice that I really disagree. We will hang around and post back & forth, b/c this is what we do. I'm simply telling you what works with wayward W's. The trouble is the H. He puts up with all her nonsense and disrespect. He wants a solution, but he wants it candy-coated, like having a nice long talk about their MR and what each of them need. Those things are important, but they don't work as a solution when dealing with a WW. Those talks come later. Many H's want someone else to do the work for him, or get them to pressure her to stay with him. That's why some LBH's expose the A to OM's spouse, or turn to the WW's friends and parents. In fact, that is the reason you are so obsessed with keeping her folks informed, b/c you want them to apply emotional pressure that will make her stop her affair and shape up. I think most all LBH's feel this type of desperation when they fear they are losing their W. I can tell you something you might not know, this fear/desparation radiates from the H, and the WW can detect it. The more she detects your desperation to keep her, the bolder she becomes in her disrespect.
At the moment, your WW does not respect you as a man/husband and that's why she is playing around. Before you can find a solution to fix the M, you have to figure out why she doesn't respect you more. You see, whenever a woman stops feeling respect for her H, it kills the attraction. Just b/c she has given you sex recently, means nothing. It's pretty clear she uses sex as some type of manipulation, rather than an expression of love.
Waywardness begins in the heart when resentment has not been resolved or dissolved through forgiveness. When she can't settle it or work through it, she pushes it down and tries to just move forward. However, that resentment grows. In fact, it breeds. It eventually gives birth to disrespect. When she starts feeling disrespect, little actions will start to show signs. Her attitude, facial expressions, tone of voice, etc. will cause the H to wonder what's up with her. He'll shrug it off as a "mood", and let it slide. Then she starts making little jabs at him in front of others. If he says anything about it, she'll claim she wasn't serious, or whatever. Eventually, she starts talking negatively about him with her friends and family. Signs of dissatisfaction, irratation, and a bad attitude, turns to anger, hatefulness, coldness, etc. The peaceful times get fewer and shorter lived. It seems as if she's in a bad mood most of the time. Actually, her feelings of disrespect are consuming her and changing her mindset.
Rebelliousness can be to any degree. Chatting on line to some guy, having an affair, or acting like girls gone wild is all her acting out the rebellion she feels toward her M and her H. In many cases, there are other issues in her life that she's rebelling against, as well.......but her anger is directed at her H. She blames him and the M for all her unhappiness.
Anyway, before the H can hope to gain his W's loving feelings, he has to gain her respect. Here's the thing about women. Their ability to feel love for their H, is tied to the level of their respect for him. Ain't that a kick in the head! Strangely enough.........or really, it's not strange at all when you realize how a woman is designed, the WW respects only one thing.......strength. Therefore, when she looks at her H, she doesn't want to see a wuss. She doesn't want some passive-aggressive, accommodating, nice guy. She doesn't want to see a mama's boy. She wants to see a real man........which simply means she sees a man who shows strength. She sees it in his interactions, decisions, actions, words, attitude, and his love. He doesn't tolerate her disrespectful behavior toward him and their M. He doesn't put up with her b.s. Even when she doesn't agree with him, and even if she gets angry.......she'll respect him for acting like a man with dignity and nner strength.
I read a statement by another poster about what he learned from his experience, and I'll amen it to the sky. "The LBH is never more attractive to his WW, as when he is walking away". So, my advice is to drop the emotional rope you have wrapped around her, and let her go. I think you'll see just how fast she grabs that rope, trying to lasso you and pull you back.
Sandi, as per usual, is spot on.
Hard to do I know. But its about detachment and pursuit.
People in this sitch often only want to pursue what they think they cant have, that they have lost. Does she feel she has lost you when she is able to pull those strings? No. She still has the strings and they are firmly attached to your balls. Cut the strings and own (your own) balls.
Often we say we are detaching. But we trick ourselves. Dont fool yourself. Just move on or as MWD would say, act as if.....
Surfer.
Surfer.
Hey all, thanks for the posts, I just read them all. Some of what you're saying is actually converging with the conclusions I drew this week.
I'm thinking I'm going to "even us up" on the remaining funds in our joint account. She has been excessively spendy, and I'm going to rectify that. She knows how this works through her past (her father's business, and that neither her nor I tolerate getting screwed over). So she spent a few grand on clothes, shoes, etc since BD and I'm going to settle that up.
Those funds, along with my next check, are going into an account in only my name. She has been whining to me throughout this process about money bc she works for cash. Even though she makes $3,200 or so a month in unreported income, she can't get financing bc it's all under the table. Boohoo, not my problem.
I am going to tell her it is time for her to move out of the house. I don't want to live with and support an adulterous person. I can't make her move, but I'm tired of this. Her mom told me that if her husband was talking to her like I was talking to my WW, that she would have thrown his clothes out the next day. Well, I wanted to ask her what she'd do if he was having an affair...
That's the bad thing, I was not a great person before the BD and PA. I have plenty of bad, negative habits that weakened our relationship. So I'm a bit apprehensive about taking the tougher approach. I have come a long ways on taking care of my garbage attitudes and behaviors, as well as setting up support networks and checks for falling back into old habits.
I just don't see the point anymore of being there for her in any way. It's not doing me any good. I'm not sure when I'm going to do this, but in the next week or 2 is what I'm thinking. She's not home much anyways. I also am thinking about bringing her parents up to speed on this beforehand bc they are safe, supportive people.
I stayed away from this place the last few days bc of some new info on my situation. I'm going to list it out below. I was back to being a bit blue for a couple days, and wasn't sleeping much. WW is super spendy and got a new phone that she didn't need, left her old one laying around. I took a gander. So here's what was keeping me up:
-she googled what her dreams meant, here were the dreams:
-what does dream of sliding and falling down hills mean
-what does car accident dream mean
-what do cheating dreams mean
-sleep deprivation (not a dream, but she searched it)
-does being pregnant give you weird dreams
-18 days late, spotting
-21 days late, 3 weeks late
-swollen around opening of vagina
-large pink ball at opening of vagina
-text message about OBGYN appt, not sure if she actually went
-her sister is covering up and not telling her folks about anything
-OM has a group pic on FB of them on a party bus, WW is hiding but visible
-WW is around heavy drinkers and drug users now with OM plus one of her dumb friends
-WW hung at our neighborhood pool w/ some druggie looking idiot girl.
And before I get the "Don't snoop/ask questions about things you can't handle", I can handle this and I'd rather know than not know. Obviously this is a little crazy, hopefully somebody reads this and thinks "Wow, at least my situation isn't the F'ed up".
PS Mom if you read this don't kill me.
Oh I should state also that I don't think WW is preggers, my sister found a tampon in the bathroom trash. I think there was something in the search history about missing a period due to stress too.
I believe in INTEL not snooping. The difference is to know, possibly to be able to prove!
Once you know you can not unknown.
But if you haven't been tested for STDs go get it done and tell WW you are doing that. I got tested, your health is important ok.
This stuff can cause horrible damage and some of it is incurable when established. It's antibiotic resistant. Early treatment is vital.
V
Sandi,
This post makes a lot of sense to me. But since i still live with my wife and also have 3 kids here, how would i go about letting her go? I can sense in her everything you are saying. And im trying to not give off energy that suggests i need her around. But as i type this, shes back out tonight while i sit alone on my couch wondering what she is up to and whG time she will be home? Tomorrow morning im getting in the gym and hitting it hard. Ty
Do you really want to end all this b.s.? Do you want to know the secret of how to get your W back? Do you really? I can tell you in three little words. I don't think you'll do it, but I can tell the secret. Let her go.
I'm really just trying to figure out what this means to me. In what ways am I still holding on? I ask this for you and me to think about.
The trouble is the H. He puts up with all her nonsense and disrespect.
Same as before, I'm wondering in what ways I'm still doing this. Something for to go over with the board, my counselor, sister.
He wants a solution, but he wants it candy-coated, like having a nice long talk about their MR and what each of them need. Those things are important, but they don't work as a solution when dealing with a WW. Those talks come later. Many H's want someone else to do the work for him, or get them to pressure her to stay with him. That's why some LBH's expose the A to OM's spouse, or turn to the WW's friends and parents. In fact, that is the reason you are so obsessed with keeping her folks informed, b/c you want them to apply emotional pressure that will make her stop her affair and shape up. I think most all LBH's feel this type of desperation when they fear they are losing their W. I can tell you something you might not know, this fear/desparation radiates from the H, and the WW can detect it. The more she detects your desperation to keep her, the bolder she becomes in her disrespect.
At the moment, your WW does not respect you as a man/husband and that's why she is playing around. Before you can find a solution to fix the M, you have to figure out why she doesn't respect you more. You see, whenever a woman stops feeling respect for her H, it kills the attraction. Just b/c she has given you sex recently, means nothing. It's pretty clear she uses sex as some type of manipulation, rather than an expression of love.
She lost respect for me and started looking outside of our MR because she got tired of being treated poorly, us not having a regular sex life, us not having enough fun bc I was being cruel and nitpicky.
She has not given me sex recently, it's been 2.5 months. I would not have sex with her until she got tested.
Waywardness begins in the heart when resentment has not been resolved or dissolved through forgiveness. When she can't settle it or work through it, she pushes it down and tries to just move forward. However, that resentment grows. In fact, it breeds. It eventually gives birth to disrespect. When she starts feeling disrespect, little actions will start to show signs. Her attitude, facial expressions, tone of voice, etc. will cause the H to wonder what's up with her. He'll shrug it off as a "mood", and let it slide. Then she starts making little jabs at him in front of others. If he says anything about it, she'll claim she wasn't serious, or whatever. Eventually, she starts talking negatively about him with her friends and family. Signs of dissatisfaction, irratation, and a bad attitude, turns to anger, hatefulness, coldness, etc. The peaceful times get fewer and shorter lived. It seems as if she's in a bad mood most of the time. Actually, her feelings of disrespect are consuming her and changing her mindset.
Rebelliousness can be to any degree. Chatting on line to some guy, having an affair, or acting like girls gone wild is all her acting out the rebellion she feels toward her M and her H. In many cases, there are other issues in her life that she's rebelling against, as well.......but her anger is directed at her H. She blames him and the M for all her unhappiness.
Anyway, before the H can hope to gain his W's loving feelings, he has to gain her respect. Here's the thing about women. Their ability to feel love for their H, is tied to the level of their respect for him. Ain't that a kick in the head! Strangely enough.........or really, it's not strange at all when you realize how a woman is designed, the WW respects only one thing.......strength. Therefore, when she looks at her H, she doesn't want to see a wuss. She doesn't want some passive-aggressive, accommodating, nice guy. She doesn't want to see a mama's boy. She wants to see a real man........which simply means she sees a man who shows strength. She sees it in his interactions, decisions, actions, words, attitude, and his love. He doesn't tolerate her disrespectful behavior toward him and their M. He doesn't put up with her b.s. Even when she doesn't agree with him, and even if she gets angry.......she'll respect him for acting like a man with dignity and nner strength.
All good info to help understand, and to focus on doing what works or at least not doing what doesn't work.
I read a statement by another poster about what he learned from his experience, and I'll amen it to the sky. "The LBH is never more attractive to his WW, as when he is walking away". So, my advice is to drop the emotional rope you have wrapped around her, and let her go. I think you'll see just how fast she grabs that rope, trying to lasso you and pull you back.
How do I walk away? Right now I'm considering opening a separate account and asking her to move out (I can't make her move).
I'm not going to date anyone, or commit adultery myself. That's not a solution for me.
Not bad. Friday I called WW to meet and talk. We needed to get some documents signed by her for the spec home mortgage and my counselor had wanted to me to "drop a nugget" on some other issues.
We were going to meet at a park, but WW wanted sushi. I had already eaten and told her this. Then the rain came, so we went to get sushi. I expressed to her that she hurt me by crossing the boundary on our anniversary. She to tried split hairs on that, and I reinforced that she knew what I had told her, and it was hurtful.
I addressed what "trying" is to me, in response to her saying "she tried on our anniversary (about a week ago), and was going to come home if it went well". I also told her that if she was expecting things to be amazing and to just pick right up, that there was too much pain and awkwardness for that.
She brings up how great she is feeling, I say fantastic I'm happy for you. But I know her search history (dreams, sleep deprivation, I posted it earlier). She states she isn't doing anything wrong, how if we were BF/GF then it would be over...
I brought up money and how she is not contributing to the joint account, but is still spending out of it. She says that she is doing that bc she is afraid I will do something crazy to her in this regard. I let her know that I am struggling to pay the bills (not financially), maintaining the home and taking care of "our" life.
I brought up our vehicle that she drives everyday. It is a luxury SUV, but WW has not contributing to the joint account since 4/9.
I let her know both of these things need to change, she assured me that she was merely "protecting herself". I say "OK", and realize words won't change this. I'm struggling to figure out if it is controlling if I simply take the vehicle that she is no longer financially responsible for and let her drive her truck. She'll expect she should drive my car, but I'd rather her not use my or our vehicles to commit adultery, especially when she isn't paying.
I told her that I am happy to provide, but that I want to provide for my wife, not somebody else's mistress. She didn't like the sound of that, and stated such. I told her that the words mean what she is at this point. She told me to "take the dictionary and go F$%* yourself". Not wanting to tolerate this disrespect, I gave her the paper to sign and then told her I was leaving. She pleaded/asked me not to leave her alone, and I had to tell her a couple of times that I'm not going to sit there for her disrespect. She didn't think she was disrespectful, so I reminded her what she said and walked out of the restaurant.
I was debating getting an Uber, but 10 minutes or so later, I got in the car with her and went back to my car. She brings up her infidelity and how more people would support what she is doing than me being an [censored]. So I ask her "then why hide it?". She states that she has support from people in her affair, so I asked "Who supports you, your parents?" WW was always huge on going to her parents for right and wrong of situations. She says that I am trying to shame her into R with me. I paused for about a minute, then responded that I am not shaming her, but that she promised it to me. She started bawling at that.
After a couple minutes, she decided to argue about money. How she's paying for my counseling (guess she forgot she isn't contributing to the joint account). I didn't engage, and as I got out of the car told her I'd have to make some changes. I'm taking what's left of the joint account tomorrow and opening my own.
Fast forward to today, my sister and I are in the garage working on stuff and talking. WW and MIL drive by in our car and quickly both face forward and drive right by the house. Inlaws house is 35 minutes away, so WW obviously wanted something from our house, but decided to cruise right by. Weirdo.
Doing OK overall. I had a dream about WW this morning. Her and I were getting close in the dream, physically and emotionally. That scared me and I woke up. Called my 24/7 counselor (work benefit, EAP) and talked for an hour and felt a little better.
I'm debating on whether or not it is controlling for me to take her/our car that she drives every day. I'd like some feedback on this.
I also don't feel it's right for me to give her my car either. She'll want to drive my car (which is only in my name) bc it's nicer than her truck (which is only in her name). At this point she is not paying her part for any of our bills and is paying for her expenses out of the joint account. She has been doing so since 4/9.
Over rainbow
In short I do think it is controlling
But I came here to answer the question you asked me on the other thread
The ultimatum was delivered with few words and a lot of action
There was a catalyst and you can read back for details
She was in a PA with OM2 but wanted to keep up appearances that she was doing nothing wrong for her social standing and the kids
But she kept stalling on the divorce leaving me yes paying all the bills and covering up for her for over a year
I could not take this any longer
Do try to be patient for as long as possible
But the after LRT and ultimatum comes in when you just cannot take it any longer
I went from not helping her with the divorce to getting it done
My actions spoke louder than words
I was done with words
Within 30 days we had a divorce settlement that I could live with and I found a new place to live and was about to move out
Only then did she drop OM2 and the divorce
My advice to you is that it seems like you are still talking too much
And your w does not take your words seriously
Taking cars and such I do think is controlling until you have an agreement in place it is all joint property
Only you what you can take and for how long
Do try to be patient for as long as possible
If you cannot take it any more then make it official
Get the lawyers or mediators involved and get it al in black and white
Something you are willing to sign
And she will get a car out of it hers or yours so be realistic
It only works when you are willing to become the walkaway spouse
To do that with a clear conscience
Knowing you tried everything
And gave it your best shot
But that the emotional burden became too great
And are driven by your own self preservation
Hard to explain
But hope that helps
Okay, going for sushi was a mistake. You should have just had her sign the papers and left. If she was no longer contributing to the joint account I would have just, without telling her, opened a new account and quite contributing to the joint account. I would have taken half of the money so she couldn't later claim that I cleaned the account out.
The SUV is a stickier situation. Since you are both still legally married I would consult a lawyer before doing anything related to the car.
Overall, the sushi/paper signing was not good. You said too much. Remember, words mean nothing. Further, " I expressed to her that she hurt me by crossing the boundary on our anniversary." Big mistake. At this point she doesn't care about your feelings.
One of the experts I started reading about after my BD talked about this. Ws don't care that they hurt us, because they've already determined that they have to hurt us in order to drop their bomb. Telling them we are sad, or hurt, or angry, or upset does nothing. In fact, detachment is the exact opposite of that! Detachments is showing her that her actions have no affect on you.
I am not trying to bash you over the head by telling you this, but sandi already gave you the secret: Let her go. My sitch started to turnaround the minute I started letting go. Not a moment before. There are two states LBHs find themselves. Either they try to control their WAW/WW, or they let her go.
in 99.9999% of the cases a LBH tries to control their WAW/WW they will end up D. While the LBHs that let go only have a 50/50 chance, 50% is much better than 99.9999%. But here is the real magic. In the 50% of the cases where the LBH lets go and still gets a D, they are fine with it! They've moved on. They are mentally and emotionally healthy.
This board is riddled with LBHs that are emotional and mental wrecks because they aren't letting go. And when we don't let go we push our WAWs/WWs out the door even faster. We create what we fear!
You asked sandi "In what ways am I still holding on?" read your last post and start counting the ways. If you need me to enumerate those ways for you I'd be glad to, but you are an intelligent guy and I think you'll see them for yourself.