I have been reading this amazing forum for a couple of weeks now and Dbing for the last 2 months.
Our marriage was bad for many years, neither of us sought help and eventually my wife asked me to leave the house. I stayed in hotels for a month and am now in a short term 6 month let property.
This bomb dropping has really woke me up and made me realise how much I truly love my wife but also how badly i treated her at times too. I am learning and implanting the changes I need to make in my behaviour and never been through such a period of accelerated personal growth in this regard.
I feel I am not just using techniques, but have made core changes to myself, the way I manage my emotions and my family priorities. Its been 4 and a half months since the bomb and my moving out now. At first I broke all the rules but thankfully still with some respect for both of us.
Then I read DB and started applying it. Things have definitely improved in regard to the amount of family time with the kids we spend together, and she has even agreed to go on a family holiday abroad for a week next month. (Platonic co-parenting are the words she is using at the moment)
However, since the bomb and the horrible things she said about our M and R, she has always refused to talk about either. I realised I had to stop pressuring her about 2 months ago and since then she I haven t brought either up. This has definitely helped stop pushing her away, but left me in limbo.
I have been demonstrating my changes and improving on them for what seems like so long now, 2 months, that I think its becoming obvious the changes are real, and jut as much for me and our kids as for her.
I think her EA has ended, but don t know for sure and am really trying my best not to snoop. I am at our house nearly every day after work and weekends and have the kids to stay separately every week. I am so glad I still get to see them nearly every day and I have really stepped up as a father since the BD.
It is really hard trying to detach from this, Ive never been through so much pain as I have this year, nowhere near. I understand and almost appreciate it is necessary as it has finally made me the man I want to be and my W wants me to be. She doesn t believe my changes are real and is quite understandably full of resentment from the past.
Now I ve written this first post I don t know if I have a question anymore, because any that come to mind always have the answer PATIENCE, but it is getting hard. Appreciating the baby steps is also a favourite answer I have read. My mistake at the moment seems to be losing patience between the baby steps.
I believe I can unconditionally forgive her EA and learn to love her ten times better than either of us have ever been loved before. I am willing to do anything and am doing everything I can whilst following the Ding principals. Why hasn t she given me a chance to even discuss our M or R yet?
Me 46, W 46
D 10, S 13
M 14 years
T 17 years
Bomb 01/18
Moved out (at her request) 01/18
EA Discovered: 02/18
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Sorry to hear your story lusa.
I believe I can unconditionally forgive her EA and learn to love her ten times better than either of us have ever been loved before. I am willing to do anything and am doing everything I can whilst following the Ding principals. Why hasn t she given me a chance to even discuss our M or R yet?
The big thing here is learning to detach. You are still focused on her and the relationship. You need to let that go and focus on yourself and your kids. I'm not saying that is easy to do, far from it, and I am still trying to do so myself as well. I think the WW can just sense the efforts we make and that continues to push them away. Are you NC?
In any case, hang in there. You are right about patience. You will probably never need more of it in your life. Things will get better as you continue to focus on yourself and GAL.
Why did you move out? Why do you think ea has ended and how do you know it wasn't a PA?
Are you familiar with the term cakeeating?
Please know that this is going to take a really long time to sort out.
What made the marriage bad for many years?
If you're at your own home every day, why not live there? Did you do something so egregious that you can't live in your own house? I bet your wife loves having the benefit of you without the presence of you. I bet the OM loves that too, but maybe he is just indifferent.
Don't worry about her right now, focus on you. You can't control her. She hasn't talked about your M or R because she's having an affair, most likely.
Don't make her life easy is all I was getting at. She's not doing that for you, right?
Thanks for your reply.
Detaching is so hard, I have just started trying. I've bought an audio book, co-dependent no more and some spiritual learning I am doing is resulting in small detachments.
Loving being with my kids and wanting to spend time with them as well as family time is making it hard. She knows 100% I want to be with all three of them as much as possible, and back in my family home. I am pretty much the opposite of NC, although I can proudly say I haven't initiated contact for 10 weeks now. She initiates it and asks me to either help with the kids or see the kids, so I see them pretty much every day.
I am focused on my changes, I know I need to GAL and understand that this is not giving up on my marriage, but GAL does feel like giving up in a way and will definitely result in me seeing my kids less.
Do you think I should be saying no more often when she asks me to go to my house to see the kids?
It seems to soon to go dark, NC and fully implement the LRT.
Thanks for your reply
I mved out because she was demonstrating many MLC signs and told me she needed me to for her mental health, she was treating me badly in front of the kids and as I love them all so much I wanted them to have some peace. I realise this might have been the wrong decision now.
I know it wasn't a PA as it is with her XH who is in the US, we are in the UK. I have learnt the term cakeeating and am aware I am facilitating this at the moment - just hard to stop, as I don't like the alternatives. I'm stil coming to terms with how long this is really going to take.
Thanks for your reply.
Parts of the marriage were bad for years due to her refusing affection and intimacy for around 7 years, not really even any platonic touching. Her mother died 5 years ago and the grief hit her hard. The lack of affection affected me in lots of ways and I ended up regularly demonstrating all the four horseman, Criticism, defensive, stonewalling and contempt.
She won't let me move back in and live there, although I go everyday and we regularly eat as a family. I haven't done anything so bad that I can't be there, and legally I could just take my stuff back tomorrow, its been more about me respecting her request for space. whenever she briefly mentions the M or R in passing, her words are "I just don't know", IDK if this is true or if she is trying to let me down gently or just cakeeating.
I really don't know what to do, but it is impossible to keep going there and hiding the fact that I desperately want us all back together and want to know the EA is over. I'm thinking of snooping more because if I could confirm the EA is still going on at least I would understand why she refuses to discuss us.
This is not making my life easy, but in other respects she does She cooks for us etc, plans family trips out. Am I making this worse by being there all the time and helping in the house? It is still my house and my family after all.
I have trawled this forum trying to find out what WAW experience and what I should subsequently do about this.
Detaching is a process. I can't imagine how hard it is having to go back and see her on a regular basis.
I am not the expert on how to handle kids since I don't have any. I would think that spending lots of times with the kids would be good. You need to be the best you and the best father that you can be. But, do you not have a visitation plan? Can you not take the kids to your place? or at least out of the family house?
Thanks for your reply Davide, I have read your sitch with interest, there are many similarities. For example, I moved out to give her space, she is stubborn and still hasn't mentioned the D word.
There hasn't been any ground rules for separation, visitation plan or any plan, as she has refused any talk about anything like this since BD. The kids do come to my house once or twice a week and I see them at our family home. I could insist on only seeing them outside the family home, but it would definitely result in me seeing them less and reduce their level of normality.
However I am willing to do that if it will stop my pushing W further away.I'm not sure if my WAW qualifes for WW or MLC yet, but I have been reading Sandi's advice regarding WW's with great interest. I'm willing to do whatever it takes to stop pushing my W away and hopefully allow MR and reconciliation talk. To be honest I am hoping to detach to enable this while still seeing my W and kids at our family home everyday - does this sound unrealistic?
Thanks
Okay, this "I need YOU to leave because I NEED space" thing is ridiculous. This is where being a man and standing up for yourself needs to come back to our society.
If my wife came to me and said she needed space, move out. I would have told her that if she needs space SHE should move out.
You seem to be doing a lot right here, except fixating on her not discussing the R. Just let it lie, These things take a long time to work themselves out. When she is ready to discuss the R she will. You need to be prepared about how to handle that discussion.
Thanks Steve, I am starting to see the decision to move out might have been the wrong one, and I am sure I haven't been man enough or stood up for myself enough in this situation. I have just bought "No More Mr Nice Guy" which might help me finally man up.
I will remember your advice to stop fixating on the R discussion, it makes a lot of sense to instead, prepare for when the discussion finally happens.
I am finally getting that detachment is key, and praying I'll get better at it sooner rather than later.
Me 46, W 46
D 10, S 13
M 14 years
T 17 years
Bomb 01/18
Moved out (at her request) 01/18
EA Discovered: 02/18
lusa,
I don't know enough to say what is realistic or not. I know, for myself, that I couldn't detach if I were seeing my W every day or every other day. I have seen her once in 6 weeks. It is hard enough for me as is.
You need to keep your kids in your life and that will necessitate some contact with her for sure. Just keep it to a minimum and keep the conversation to the logistics and the kids.
Keep focusing on yourself, not in order to fix the MR, but in order to get yourself in a better place for whatever your next relationship is, with her or with someone else. If you keep doing it for her it won't work. Do it for yourself.
Thanks for the advice - I'll do my best to keep this in mind.
Focusing on myself, and making sure the improvements and changes are for me not for her.
I'm still not sure whether I should still help around the house, do the gardening or go on family outings etc when she asks, or decline.
For example would you agree if your W asked you to come over and just hangout with her and your dog? Or would you refuse?
I went back once and mowed the grass before I started DBing. I wouldnt do it again. I wont do anything about the house until I move back in. I wouldnt do gardening if I were you. She removed you from the house. It is her responsibility now.
I dunno about family outings. I would ask someone with kids in this situation. My thought is no, I would want my time with the kids to be MY time with the kids. But, what do I know?
My W would never ask to hangout. She is asserting her independence. She feels like she needs to break free of me as much as I need to break free of her. If she did...woah... I think the correct answer would be to say no, that it would be cake-eating - a chance for her to enjoy the benefits of the R (hanging out, not being lonely, chatting) without making any committment to restoring the R. That said, I would be hard pressed to say no, because I would want to listen to her and validate her. It would definitely set back my detachment a ton - even thinking about it is hard. I am almost glad that it isnt a real option.
Hi. I'm still kinda New myself.
Wait I can tell you is, I don't think it's wrong to be available for the kids, but maybe pick and choose how long you stay. Maybe a couple nights leave earlier than usual, or if you know she's making dinner declarations be one night and say that you have plans. Even if you don't. Pulling back a little will get her curious.
And NO, do not go hang out with her and her dogs. Graciously decline.
Thank you, I will graciously pull back a little and stop being available all the time like a panting eager puppy!
I'll add, be unpredictable.
Right now she doesn't have to think about anything bc you are very available. ite great that you have recognized where you have went wrong. You can still capitalize on both issues. Detaching doesn't necessarily mean being rude. It feels that way bc you want so much to be with her, but in reality it's not.
Think of it this way:
"Hey, can you come over and __________"
"Ahhhhh man, I can't right now I have to _________"
Not too bad right?
Just give it a shot and watch for results.
Thank you David, very interesting food for thought, weighing up validating vs cake-eating vs successful detachment. Your point of view and honesty has really helped me see my sitch for what it is.
Thank you, you nailed it, it feels wrong because I want to be with her so much. I'm going to be less available and give it a go this week, and see what happens.
Thanks Steve, I am starting to see the decision to move out might have been the wrong one, and I am sure I haven't been man enough or stood up for myself enough in this situation. I have just bought "No More Mr Nice Guy" which might help me finally man up.
I will remember your advice to stop fixating on the R discussion, it makes a lot of sense to instead, prepare for when the discussion finally happens.
I am finally getting that detachment is key, and praying I'll get better at it sooner rather than later.
Me 46, W 46
D 10, S 13
M 14 years
T 17 years
Bomb 01/18
Moved out (at her request) 01/18
EA Discovered: 02/18
Again you seem to be doing a lot of good things now. Keep it up.
We humans are interesting creatures. We like to talk about what is top of mind. So when we get into the stress of MR problems, that weigh on our mind all of the time, we find a need to want to talk about it.
You said she doesn't want to discuss it, which implies that you are occasionally testing the waters and trying to initiate. One of the first rules of DBing is not to initiate R talks. It is hard because of the human dynamic I mentioned above, but it is so important to avoid that behavior. WAWs are very sensitive to pursuit and pressure. Initiating R talks are pursuit and pressure.
So yes, be prepared because eventually it will come up. And be prepared, it usually comes up as a mini-BD #2. "You know I'm done because I already told you that." Remember my favorite sandi rule: believe nothing she says and only half of what she does. WAWs are notorious for insisting that their previous proclamation is still the law of the land, even when you can see her having doubts and second thoughts through her actions.
My W would alternate between talking about the future with me, and then reminding me that she wanted out. To say that she was conflicted was an understatement. Even worse, her words were conflicting with other words, but definitely in conflict with her actions.
You probably aren't aware of my sitch, but my wife's plan was to get a job, get an apartment and to get a D. And for the first few weeks she started that. She was in contact with rental agents helping her find an apartment. She was updating her resume and skimming job openings. She has a 4 year degree and though she has been out of the job market for a long time, she would have no problem finding a job that would allow her to support herself. She was researching the divorce process and even reading about the effects that it would have on our D.
But about month after BD those activities ceased. She never finished her resume. She quit responding to job and apartment openings. She didn't want to discuss D logistics (especially after I contacted a lawyer and told her that her plan of a quickie D was unrealistic. When the topic of her plan would come up, she'd still talk about wanting to get a job, an apartment and a D, but there was no action being taken above that.
So you started instituting changes. You gave her space (maybe too much but that is water under the bridge). This has caused her to start questioning her pronouncements on BD. My wife had a last couple of rebellious moments against the MR about 2 months in, before all of her words and actions changed to being back into the MR.
Understand, even now if I push her too hard on things, she starts to retreat. This is the whole pursuit and pressure dynamic. I save all of our R discussions to happen during MC, where she feels safe to speak openly.
So give her time, eventually she will want to address where things are. In the meantime, view limbo as the gift of time to show her the new you.
YIt is hard because of the human dynamic I mentioned above, but it is so important to avoid that behavior. WAWs are very sensitive to pursuit and pressure. Initiating R talks are pursuit and pressure.
BD was early January and for pretty much the next 2 months i broke the worse Dbing rules regularly.
On March the 6th our 14th wedding anniversary I started Dbing. I am proud to say I haven't tested the waters trying to initiate MR discussions at all. I know she doesn't want to discuss it by her other words, actions and all the answers she gave me when I was pressuring. Also she has said things like, when we go away for a week I want no MR discussion while I'm trapped abroad with you and that's still a month away. It's slowly sinking in how long this could take.
I might not have tried to initiate MR talks in the last 10 weeks but I am guilty of pursuing and pressure in all sorts of other ways. My Mr Nice Guy behaviour, helping round the house, doing things for her with expectations she'll be pleased, requesting all 4 of us have family days out.
I am now well into the process of stopping this behaviour, the stuff i still do regularly isn't pressuring and is done with no expectations. Family time is requested by her, as is every interaction. For example as I was leaving the family home (earlier than necessary) after eating with them, she asked if I will pick D10 up from tennis after work on Thu and bring her home, so W can make tea for us all.
The Pursuer Distance theory seems to have really helped with initiating contact and requesting meets. The thing I haven't been doing is making myself unavailable (when I'm really free) for some requests, I am trying to implement this immediately but its hard to overcome the counter-intuitiveness.
So yes, be prepared because eventually it will come up. And be prepared, it usually comes up as a mini-BD #2. "You know I'm done because I already told you that." Remember my favorite sandi rule: believe nothing she says and only half of what she does. WAWs are notorious for insisting that their previous proclamation is still the law of the land, even when you can see her having doubts and second thoughts through her actions.
If she initiates MR talk after all this time and drops mini-BD #2. "You know I'm done because I already told you that." - I'll be devestated but hopefully remember Sandi's fab rule. It will be like not moving away with a rabid dog breathing in my face though. I presume I'll just have to validate without agreeing?
So you started instituting changes. You gave her space (maybe too much but that is water under the bridge). This has caused her to start questioning her pronouncements on BD. My wife had a last couple of rebellious moments against the MR about 2 months in, before all of her words and actions changed to being back into the MR.
Understand, even now if I push her too hard on things, she starts to retreat. This is the whole pursuit and pressure dynamic. I save all of our R discussions to happen during MC, where she feels safe to speak openly.
Thanks for informing me of your sitch, I'm impressed and a bit jealous you got her committed to your MR with her words and actions in only 2 months. I was still breaking the rules 2 months in.
Its interesting that 3 months after that pressure still makes her retreat and MR talk is saved for MC.
So give her time, eventually she will want to address where things are. In the meantime, view limbo as the gift of time to show her the new you.
As you know I've felt stuck in limbo for what feels like a lifetime now, but this gem you have giving me has completely 180'd my thinking on this " In the meantime, view limbo as the gift of time to show her the new you."
Thank you so much for that.
You're welcome, but I stole that from another poster here. I like you hated limbo and felt like I needed to move past it until someone told me that. It is so true, and is a very healthy way of viewing it.
Lusa,
I did in house detachment. I started with Txhubby philosophy, but that was too hardcore for my sitch. I was a terrible husband so Txhubby way didn't work. I just came off looking like an ahole to my W.
I later took on AS philosophy and started detaching with love and my W started to notice my changes. I was hard as hell at first but I kept trying different things to see what worked. I also had Sandi and 25 giving great advice and 2x4s.
I posted often and provided as much detail about every encounter I had with my W.
Each sitch is different and only you will know what is working.
This will be the hardest journey of your life, but detaching with love is what turned my W heart back around.
JJ
Thank you so much for your input.
I have gone back and read as much of your sitch as my time has allowed so far, I am up to 10/27/17 where your W has finally started opening up to you. Your sitch has been so insightful to me, reading your questions on detachment etc and the answers from the vets has been invaluable.
As you are aware I am just starting to detach and Sandi's words on what to stop doing around the house with a WW really match my situation.I will continue reading your sitch for inspiration but wanted to post what I plan to do tonight hoping for some affirmation or advice.I am scheduled to pickup d10 from Tennis and bring her home where my W will prepare dinner for us all.
On Tuesday I was at the family home and a few things came up, which in hindsight I wasn't happy with my response to, as now I see my balls are in my W's purse and I need to take them back.
The topic of maintaining the garden came up and W asked if I would do it or if she should get a gardner, when I said I would do it, she said that's fine but she doesn't want be bringing up the work i've done if she makes a decision that teh MR is permanantly over. After consideration and in the name of detaching, I am going to tell her it's fine for her to get a gardener and doing this work at the house is just another thing I miss that I am letting go of.
I asked if I should take the heavy trash bins to the front of the house and she replied "I don't mind", so I didn't do it then she reitarated she didn't mind in a way I was expected to take it as yes please. In the end she said yes please and I did it.
I am going to tell her that i won't offer to do any of these things anymore, and that if she wants me to do something she can ask nicely and I'll then consider it.
Also S13 is booked to stay at my place on Saturday evening, so when she asks me about these arrangements I'm just going to say have him ready in the evening and I'll come and pick him up rather than can I come round and do something with you all in the day?, which is the sort of thing I used to say.
I feel that this is a much better, Alpha, detaching attitude, does it sound better to you?
Lusa,
Remember you are detaching with love. You aren't being spiteful or mean. I agree with you about not doing the gardening. I also agree she should ask you nicely, but remember you weren't a good husband and you coming off as a a$$ won't help.
It's a delicate balance of actions and words from now on. You arent your W errand boy, so let her know that in a lovingly way. "I understand you want me to work on the garden, but I'm not comfortable being your errand boy, I'm your husband". Leave it at that.
When it comes coparenting the children, you get more bees with honey. In other words, be a man, but don't be mean. Keep your tones neutral. "Hey, W I'm coming to get S13 at this time". Leave out the so have him ready part, that will make her defensive because your were demanding. And demanding is not what you are trying to achieve respect is what you are after.
Start respecting yourself and loving yourself and the rest will start to fall in place. A person that love and respect themselves don't allow another to disrespect them.
Thank you for that sound advice.
I am back from the family home now, I realise she is in this independent mode where she really wants to be able to do all the tasks I did before, for herself. When things need doing that she hasn't done before like setting up or emptying the pool we have, she'll ask me what to do, I'll explain and then she'll do it herself. I'm not going to read too much into this now, but I'll just take on-board that she doesn't want me to do things for her around the house ATM. I resisted bringing in the trash bins from the front of the house, like I've been doing recently and tidying the kitchen and just let her do it all herself whilst I played with the kids.
I did tell her it was fine if she gets a gardener and I am going to stop doing these type of things for her. I mentioned the fact she replied disrespectfully to me when I offered the other day and that if she wants me to do something she'll need to ask me nicely. She balked at that and repeated "ask you nicely?". I wasn't mean or cold and don't think I have been for the last 10 weeks of Dbing. She did want to end that conversation then though.
I'm taking on board what you say about detaching with love and not being demanding. I want her respect and it makes perfect sense that I won't need to demand it if I am respecting and loving myself properly because then I will simply not accept her disrespect.
Something else has been on my mind, one of the few times she has acknowledged my changes, she said the last few months have been so much better regarding my relationship with the kids. She then said she thought it was down my not having the stress of living with her. I resisted the urge to say these last 2 months have been the most stressful time of my life.
It can't be right that successfully implementing consistent changes can lead a WAW I am separated from to believe it is because she has reduced my stress by preventing me from living with her, can it?
Just keep POSTING (on this thread) and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Thanks for your advice Cadet, I will keep posting. I've been reading threads about LBS's detaching all day and now I feel quite angry at my W for the first time.
I think the anger is coming out as my fear is finally subsiding. She emotionally detached a long time ago and didn't tell me anything, she talked to everyone else but me then dropped the DB, then she proceeded to have an EA and was lost in limerence while I was going through hell. Now she has the cheek to say things to me like "don't get your hopes up"
I think I'm finally done with her now, regardless of the consequences.
Thanks for your advice Cadet, I will keep posting. I've been reading threads about LBS's detaching all day and now I feel quite angry at my W for the first time.
I think the anger is coming out as my fear is finally subsiding. She emotionally detached a long time ago and didn't tell me anything, she talked to everyone else but me then dropped the DB, then she proceeded to have an EA and was lost in limerence while I was going through hell. Now she has the cheek to say things to me like "don't get your hopes up"
I think I'm finally done with her now, regardless of the consequences.
lusa just a word of caution. Be careful with pronouncements of finality. The threads here are littered with LBSs that were at the I am done point, only to turn around in a day or two to be about to initiate an R talk, and I miss her so much, I can't live without her language. This is a process. Fear is the first emotion. Anger follows. Then you move back into fear. Then to resignation, then to anger, then to fear. It is literally a roller-coaster ride.
Remember, she is on her own roller-coaster too. That is why being detached, remaining calm, being ever present is so important. The analogy is like a lighthouse. No matter what the seas are like you are there on the shore as a rock steady beckon of light.
So while you shouldn't shun these emotions, you need to feel them as you are experiencing them, neither should you use them to make final decisions. There will be plenty of time for that. Remebmer, limbo is the gift of time.
Thank you for those wise words, I'll be seeing her at the family home in the next hour or so, I'll remember this and ensure I make no pronouncements. Detached. calm and every present :-)
When things need doing that she hasn't done before like setting up or emptying the pool we have, she'll ask me what to do, I'll explain and then she'll do it herself. I'm not going to read too much into this now, but I'll just take on-board that she doesn't want me to do things for her around the house ATM. I resisted bringing in the trash bins from the front of the house, like I've been doing recently and tidying the kitchen and just let her do it all herself whilst I played with the kids.
I don't think it is your W who has a problem about you not doing something for her. I think it is YOU, who has the problem. IDK, maybe acts of service is your love language. Why do you have to "resist" bringing in the trash bins and tidying up the kitchen? Maybe you should examine yourself as to why you have this strong need.
If your W is really wanting to show her independence, she might resent you doing everything for her. Grant it, most W's won't complain that they have nothing to do when they get home, but I feel it is a big mistake for a H to do everything for her. And if they are separated, it's a big no-no.
You have not really separated from her. You use the kids as your excuse to be over there as much as you are. I am not saying you don't love or want the best for your kids. Lots of fathers say they do this for the sake of the kids.......but it's really for the sake of the H's feelings. You are not giving her a chance to see how a real separation looks. You are getting
better, by turning lose of some of the work. Now, you need to stop eating meals "as a family" over there, and staying most of the time at her house. It is hard on you and the kids, yes. But you have to think about the end results and doing something unpleasant short term in order to have better results long term.
Are you preparing the evening meals for the family? If so, is there any reason why she can't do it?
I strongly suggest you start spending at least one day per week GAL. This will help your growth. You can also take the kids to do things with you. You can spend time with them other places than her house.
((hugs))
Thank you for your input Sandi,
My W is resenting me doing anything for her ATM and is definitely asserting her independence.
I went back home and I saw her through the window on the phone crying when I pulled up on the drive, I checked her phone later and saw shed be talking to her best GF. I was booked in for a guitar lesson there (which she had facilitated). I noticed that since yesterday, she had sat in the kitchen working all day with the trash bagged up in the room, which has never happened before. It was still waiting for me to take it out like I had been dutifully doing for the last few months.
I again asked her if she wanted me to bring the trash bins from the front of the house, and she again replied with the words i dont mind, so i left them. This is obviously her testing as it is the first time I have stopped doing things like this and id already brought up the fact that this is a disrespectful answer when im asking if she wants help. I now know that I made a mistake by asking.
Mistake number 2: When she said she had to go to buy food for the house, I said I could have brought it if she asked me.
Mistake number 3: When I saw the pool was still up on the lawn, without being asked, I said I would take it down so it doesnt kill the grass.
Mistake number 4: I am picking S13 up tomorrow to bring him to stay overnight with me. When I asked what time to get him and W said they had plans together in the morning, I said fine and almost flounced off, pouting, so much S13 mentioned it. Very immature and obviously indicative of desperately expecting my W to want family time together, and sulking when she doesnt.
This isnt detaching, this is still being a scared little lap dog, whos terrified she wont change her mind and theyll be no R followed by a big D.
After reading hundreds of posts this week, especially yours Sandi, I have come to realise that as we are separated (at her request) I shouldnt be doing any housework for her and by doing these things I am actually making my situation worse and pushing her further away. This is the real reason I have stopped these things, I actually quite like these jobs.
Thank you for pointing out that I havent really separated from her and that I have been using the kids as an excuse to go to her house, you are right, this is true. I also havent initiated any contact or requested any meet, I thought the fact that she had offered every meet meant that it still counted as doing the right thing and was still Dbing.
Ive been terrified of pulling back for all the classic reasons and therefore havent given her a chance to see how separation really looks. I feel I am finally starting to do this now, but it will be so hard to refuse offers of family meals / family time with all 4 of us. I will do my best to remember the long-term goal taking precedent over the short-term unpleasantness, and see if that gives me enough to refuse these invitations.
Sometimes I prepare the meals, sometimes she does, sometimes I take over the prep as shes finishing her blogging work in the kitchen. Mostly she prepares it for me and the kids or all of us though.
Regarding GAL, tonight I have been playing guitar with a friend, but this is nothing new, we have done it nearly every Friday night for 4 years. I dont currently do anything else GAL wise. I am thinking of joining my local Judo club, which is a sport I did as a kid.
I know a female friend would simultaneously help and complicate the situation, so I would like to avoid that ATM.
Currently, the kids stay with me independently once a week, I am planning to take them out more on my own, but I have been so happy to trade this for full family time with W too, she has ended up with all the power.
This is very hard and very counter-intuitive but thanks to this board I have finally started doing this and becoming the best man I can be, for myself, my kids and my future R.
Recognizing your mistakes is great progress, IMHO. It means that, hopefully, you won't repeat these actions. Frankly, I am pretty excited that you are getting better vision.
I suggest you try really hard to not think of her as your W, or see yourself as her dutiful H. It will help keep you more balanced and grounded. She said she wanted a separation, so allow her to experience it. To tell you the truth, I could see how she would feel your presence and constantly wanting to help her as pressure. So, actually, you have been hurting yourself by being so handy.
I also havent initiated any contact or requested any meet, I thought the fact that she had offered every meet meant that it still counted as doing the right thing and was still Dbing.
She is wayward, so almost everything she initiates, suggests, or offers has an ulterior motive. A wayward is motivated by her self-centered thoughts. I suggest that you silently question whenever she offers a meet......or anything else. Even if you can't see what she could possibly gain from it....I promise there is something in it for her or you'd never hear from her.
Ive been terrified of pulling back for all the classic reasons and therefore havent given her a chance to see how separation really looks. I feel I am finally starting to do this now, but it will be so hard to refuse offers of family meals / family time with all 4 of us. I will do my best to remember the long-term goal taking precedent over the short-term unpleasantness, and see if that gives me enough to refuse these invitations.
Being honest with ourselves and facing our fears is a big step. It's okay to be afraid. Just don't allow the fear to paralyze your actions. Might I suggest you set a few goals to challenge yourself. This coming week, see how many times you can turn down her offers to stay for meals. Deal?
Let me share something I've learned. I discovered that in order to have stronger faith, we
must have trials and temptations. Without them, there would be no need to apply faith. The same thing is true in other areas. We will never know our true strength until we are required to use it. It's like muscles. If we never exercise our muscles, we lose them.
Start with a few steps in the right direction......like turning down the meals. Stop offering to help her. Don't make suggestions, as if you were still living together (like your response when she said she needed to get groceries). Do your very best with these this coming week.
I am really relieved to see that you are willing to stop spending so much time at her place, and that the kids should spend more time with you. Yes, it is hard for the H to deny "family" activities, but she will never experience true separation if you don't stop playing family while she is acting out her rebellion. Make your family events just for you and the kids. Remember, she wanted to tear it apart, so let her have a glimpse of how it would look.
You will still get to be with your children. Make their visits exciting and special. They will love going to your house, especially if they feel it's their place, too.
Again, I commend you for being so open and honest. ((hugs))
Being honest with ourselves and facing our fears is a big step. Its okay to be afraid. Just dont allow the fear to paralyze your actions. Might I suggest you set a few goals to challenge yourself. This coming week, see how many times you can turn down her offers to stay for meals. Deal?
Youve got a deal Sandi
I really appreciate your input on my sitch, and feel my respect for you has given me accountability to you and myself. Ive trusted and started this process, whilst still living with the fear of it. So far Ive given myself 1 point for each of my following actions:
When I went to pick up S13 on Saturday night, he asked if I could wait and watch football on the sports channel with him. Instead of using it as an excuse to stay longer at her house I persuaded him to come with me and it would be just as good listening on the radio at my house. We left earlier than expected and W was surprised.
W is training to walk a marathon, which is quite a feat considering her physical situation ATM. She walked 20 miles on Sunday and with a mile to go she texted that it would be fine for me to bring S13 back to her house and wait for her, I think she wanted us to cheer her home. I resisted and brought him much later. When I brought him back, I checked she was ok after her long walk and then politely left. This is such a 180 on my previous fawning behavior of asking what she needed, preparing meals and even massaging her feet.
Later that evening she called a few times and then texted for advice she could get from anyone and to see if I would be her errand boy. Instead of eagerly replying I simply turned my phone off and continued GALing with my guitar buddy.
D10 is returning from a school trip today and instead of all going to greet her as previously discussed I said I would come over later and pick her up, so she could have a couple of hours daddy time on her own. Normally Id have jumped at the chance to greet her together and spend the subsequent hours at her house.
When arranging for me to take S13 to see a movie on Thu night W has mentioned a few times that she will cook burgers, presuming I will come straight from work and eat as family like we often do. The first time I just automatically said ok, this morning I said, please just feed the kids as normal and Ill come and pick him up when its time to leave the house.
I make that 5 points already this week, and its only Monday. I only started this 36 hours ago and I am already starting to see the dynamic shift and to feel her pursuit for the first time. I am even starting to feel some relief and pleasure, but not at her expense, its more due to me finally remembering how to be the man I really am.
I have many questions that I never post as the more I read, the more answers come. Especially through the five threads on LBH dealing with WW spouses. The one question I have ATM is how do I answer when she asks about this pulling back behavior? She has definitely noticed and Im sure the question will come soon. The current answer I have is I am just working on myself and learning to let go.
This is horrible I am lonely and missing them and the 4 of us being together.
I turned down another meal there yesterday and turned down calling in after work today.
She has responded by calling more and talking about her work stuff more, not just kids stuff.
I feel it is good my listening to her stuff and being encouraging but detached with love as it shows I am not just going NC, which I have done before or feeling angry with her. I think it balances her feeling me pull back whilst still being her lighthouse.
lusa, I am of the opinion that anytime he WAW is willing to talk to you, you should embrace it. Unless it is disrespectful in nature. As long as she is willing to open up to you about her life, listen. Validate her feelings.
NC or LRT are for very specific circumstances. And should only be used as a "last resort", thus the name.
Thank you Steve, I feel I have been guilty of too much in the past to not answer most of her calls and validate when I can.
I get a feeling there will be more now I've finally learnt to take the pressure off her, pressure I didn't realise I was creating.
Thank you Steve, I feel I have been guilty of too much in the past to not answer most of her calls and validate when I can.
I get a feeling there will be more now I've finally learnt to take the pressure off her, pressure I didn't realise I was creating.
It is amazing how mot of the time when you back off, they come forward. Could be for lots of reasons, not all good (like trying to keep you as Plan B), but it usually works that way.
Wow! I am so impressed with your big 180's. I think you did an excellent job in pulling back......not only from eating meals at her place, but in how you handled the other situations.
I wished I had seen your previous post sooner. I would have warned you that you'd probably experience a down day, following your great progress. I see it happen with almost everyone. You will be so pleased with your accomplishments, and suddenly you'll have a day you feel totally depressed and lonely.
Try to think of these as your "rainy days". We don't hear so much about saving things for a rainy day anymore, but try this as an experiment. You know these days will come, so have something special prepared to do on those days. Save a book you've wanted to read, or call an old buddy, change your usual routine of the day/night (if possible), watch a comedy show, go see an action movie, buy some new clothes, go to a new resturant or cook something special and invite a friend over, etc. In other words, be your best friend on those rainy days. Keep a running list of activities, as they come to mind, and then on the rainy day......you'll have some ideas saved. Some guys notice their hardest part of the day is in the beginning of the morning time. If you have a particular tough time of the day, do something different........like playing big band music, or a motivational speaker on YouTube, or take a walk, etc. Don't watch love stories or sad movies. Don't listen to sad songs.
I am even starting to feel some relief and pleasure, but not at her expense, its more due to me finally remembering how to be the man I really am.
Observing the situation as if you were the third party helps give you a more detached and balanced view point. If you can take pleasure, I think you deserve it. Free the man you are meant to be.
The one question I have ATM is how do I answer when she asks about this pulling back behavior? She has definitely noticed and Im sure the question will come soon. The current answer I have is I am just working on myself and learning to let go.
I don't think I'd tell her you are working on yourself. Too much implication, there. There are some things you just don't share with her. You could say, "I've decided it's time to let go". That makes you sound a little stronger, as if this is your choice.
I turned down another meal there yesterday and turned down calling in after work today
.
That must have been really difficult, since you were having a down day. ((hugs))
She has responded by calling more and talking about her work stuff more, not just kids stuff.
That's good. Now, let me warn you of something else that will probably happen. Since you have really pulled back.......I think you can expect her to temp check you. She's wondering what is up with you, and if she doesn't get satisfactory answers (and she shouldn't get them), she will do something to test you to see how much you are still emotionally attached to her/MR.
I think Ive made more progress on this scary path by following through on my commitment to detach with love and stop pursuing. Realising the pursuit had taken the form of family time is a big breakthrough and has definitely helped me detach. I think our normal conversations have been nicer too.
Having said that Im disappointed that me pulling back like this has resulted so far in her now asking me less to be there with the kids, less offers of meals and her doing all the house jobs herself.
I am going to continue walking this scary path as I can feel it helping me to finally find myself. Even though its counter-intuitive and feels the wrong thing to do for the MR and the family ATM. Its laughable that I feel Ive been demonstrating so much patience with this but Ive only just finished day 6.
We had an interesting text exchange this afternoon, which Im sure I made mistakes with but I think her reply was very significant so Im going to post it here.
Regarding my 97yr old Grandma who has recently passed away, she messaged
I miss her warmth and her kindness and her solidness, do you know what I mean?I replied
Yes that sums up what she gave out very well. We were lucky to have had that time with such a wonderful lady. I think youll be like that when youre a grandma too.I think this was a mistake, but she was, and sometimes I think still is like that.
Then she replied
I want to be a wild grandma after all these years of sensibleness.Shes actually telling me this, and of course i straight away think of this thread. She has never been wild and sometimes I think that was partly my fault.
Heres my other mistakes
I replied
Even if you were wild you would still be warm kind and solid
Go for it, Im sure our grandkids would love a wild grandmaI really regret sending this now, i feel it goes against all the principals and has undone all my hard work.......duh
On reflection I think I still haven't detached properly and was desperate to communicate that
I still know and value that she is still warm and kind inside and she always has been to everyone.
I want you to remember we will have to share grandkids and BD, EA, D, etc will even affect them all those years into the future.
lusa,
yes you made mistakes. You should have kept the text about your grandma, not about your W.
This: Yes that sums up what she gave out very well. We were lucky to have had that time with such a wonderful lady. I think youll be like that when youre a grandma too.
Should have been just: Yes that sums up what she gave out very well. We were lucky to have had that time with such a wonderful lady.
Remember, you are detaching, you are validating her feelings (which is what the edited response above would do). What you did was pursue and pressure by making it about her. Essentially what you were saying is: "Our future together, with our grandkids, you'll be a grandma like that too!"
Her rebelling against that was obvious. "I want to be a wild grandma!" she is saying "My future doesn't include you, and I will be out sowing my wild oats for the rest of my life!"
The key to DBing is to 1) prepare yourself no matter what the future holds 2) remove all pursuit and pressure from the WAS to try to coax them to get curious about why that went away and come looking 3) to not remind them of what they have stated they want or how they feel
1 is what GAL, detachment, and 180s are all about. 2 is as I described. But 3 is a really big key. This is why saying "I love you" is something LBSs shouldn't say. Because it reminds the WAS that they DON'T love you. At least that is not how they feel at the moment. When you take away pursuit and pressure it allows the WAS room to breathe and to even potentially forget that they've already decreed that they are leaving.
In my sitch, I spent just over 2 months pursuing, pressuring, reminding my wife inadvertently that she wanted out of the MR. When I got better at detachment, and removed the pressure and pursuit, then my W slowly started to give up her waywardness, and she slowly, even reluctantly, started to move back towards the MR.
She even said to our MC "as we talk about fun things, and have fun discussions my desire to leave decreases and my desire to stay increases". That meant I stopped initiating any and all relationship discussions!
So remove that pressure. It isn't a guarantee, but if you continue to pursue and pressure I guarantee you will push her away.
The key to DBing is to 1) prepare yourself no matter what the future holds 2) remove all pursuit and pressure from the WAS to try to coax them to get curious about why that went away and come looking 3) to not remind them of what they have stated they want or how they feel
I love this. I think 3 is tied in with 2, as all that sort of talk puts pressure on them. But this is a great summary.
Yes Davide, I agree that 2 and 3 are related. But I thought it was important in this case to point out that 3 is important because we sometimes think we can "hint" our WAS into wanting to come back. So we try subtlety to get them to "think" about what they are doing. lusa was being subtle (but still obvious) in his "I think you'll be like that as a grandma too".
But really what he was doing was reminding the WAW that she doesn't want to be co-grandparents with him right now. That being a warm, kind, solid type of person isn't who she wants to be right now. While it WAS pursuit, it was more just a bad idea because it made his WAW start to think about how she feels towards being "sensible" right now.
So yes 2 and 3 can be combined. Pursuit is reminding them of how they feel. Reminding them of how they feel IS pursuit. Good observation.
Thanks for clarifying the stupid mistakes that I had a feeling I had made. Apart from this bad text exchange I think Ive done really well this week avoiding family time when she has requested it.
She called me again today to discuss D10s birthday presents, and asked if all four of us could go on a family walk tomorrow. I automatically said yes, but having had some time to reflect I now know I again have to decline. I want my family back together all the time, not just when it suits her. So I am going to decline, not sure how to say it yet, but if she pushes for a reason I will say I have decided to let go.
D10 will be staying with me overnight tomorrow, so I will simply go and pick her up when shes ready, instead of playing fake happy families all day with my WW.
I've changed my mind again, Ive cut down so much on the time ive spent with her this week, I need some chance to showcase my changes and then refuse invitations again. I wish I wasnt so indecisive about this, its hardly showing the strength I wish I had.
Your decisions to spend time and not spend time is solely based around what her reactions will be. That road leads to expectations and that leads to disappointment, and that leads you back to square one.
You need to showcase your changes? Then do it for yourself and not her. She'll notice. She'll also notice if you're faking those changes. You're not doing any favours to yourself with this approach.
Thanks for your input Maika, its much appreciated. I have thought about it long and hard and realised I have still been basing all my decisions regarding spending time together on the reaction I want from her. I have kept this thought with me over the weekend where we did spend family time together.
We went shopping and swimming saturday, d10 stayed with me overnight and all the next morning and then I gardened all sunday wth them, WW cooked meals for us and we interacted nicely.
She said she had noticed I'd drastically reduced my alcohol consumption in the last few months and we briefly discussed the impact alcohol had previously had on our relationship and the kids.
I feel this is significant progress compared with the months of zero MR communication from my hardened hearted WW. I realise the fact I see this as significant is because it relative to 6 months of absolutely no MR talk since BD.
Thanks again for leaving me with a thought that helps remind me to assess my intent before making a decision.
Great update lusa! Keep working on your changes. Don't base your decisions around her reactions. Be authentic to yourself. Looks like you can spend time with her without it being emotionally taxing to you.
I haven't read your whole sitch, but what happened to her EA?
Yes I have learnt to spend time without it being emotionally taxing now, in 2 weeks we have a week booked abroad on holiday as a family which will certainly be a big test for me.
Her EA was with her XH from 17 years ago across the pond. I am pretty sure she stopped it around the end of March, but cant be definite.
I am currently trying to decide if I need to bring it up straight away if she initiates any sort of MR talk.
You are traveling as a "family" with your wife who may more may not be actively in an EA? That doesnt sound particularly healthy for anyone involved.
I agree, but what do i do about it?
pull out?
confront her?
gather intel?
keep quiet?
After spending a weekend full of family time, I have now decided to continue with my 180s that involve not accepting all offers to go to her house and therefore pressuring a lot less.
I was shopping last night for d10s birthday when id finished W asked if I was going to call in to see the kids and I said it was quite late so id go straight home instead.
Then this afternoon she texted asking again if I was popping in to see the kids. I replied simply, sorry I am meeting someone at 6. This is only a plumber but she doesnt need to know that.
I will be picking s13 up tomorrow to stay with me and will see d10 then too. Although I am missing them all very much every day, my focus is on detaching and hoping that this is the best thing I can do to keep my family together in the long run.
I feel I am no longer making these decisions based on what her reaction will be and that the space this is creating is good for me and this detaching process.
I can't help wishing she had asked who I was meeting, then eventually these thoughts turn to, I wish I could get her out of my head for a bit.
This is such a good reason to GAL.
As I am writing this a friend just called and asked if he could pop round for an hour, that is at least a full hour of respite I will get from thinking about her, our MR and chances of R.
I can't help wishing she had asked who I was meeting, then eventually these thoughts turn to, I wish I could get her out of my head for a bit.
This is such a good reason to GAL.
As I am writing this a friend just called and asked if he could pop round for an hour, that is at least a full hour of respite I will get from thinking about her, our MR and chances of R.
She might be wondering, but you may have come off so eager to convey that message to her that it come as either desperate (women no likey) or hurtful (not gonna help you).
Maybe find another way to just say you're busy IMO.
GAL is great, so work on yourself. And don't do things for attention (immature) or to hurt (mean).
ive thought about this and see how it could be construed as eager. But as always happens she was the only one to initiate contact after 24 hrs, and i just immediately fired back that reply because I was at work, its what I always do.
Also she straight away asked if she could call and then spoke about an issue with s13 and ended the conersation with bye love. First time Ive heard the l word out of her lips since it was said venemously 6 months ago. So I dont think I came across as either desperate or hurtful.
I have certainly been too guilty in the past of immaturely doing things for attention or saying hurtful things to be mean. I feel this behaviour is now permenantly gone and thats why i have such a need to just hang out as a family so these real changes ive made for me can be seen, felt and enjoyed by the whole family.
I have to balance what I feel is my best chance of R with not creating pressure and breaking free of my codependancy slash NGS.
Just journaling.
A few housr ago, I went to pickup s13 to take him to football practice and then on to stay overnight with me. I mentioned to W that I might ask d10 to come with me and play for an hour then I'll drop her back. W said why dont you stay here and play with her and I will make you a meal. Instead I decided to take d10 to my house as we have a special game there.
Also this is the night we have to put the heavy trash out and I didn't offer to do it like I usually do and she didnt ask me. She is proud that she is able to do everything the house requires and stubborn like this too.
I feel down and sometimes incredulous that in nearly 6 months since BD there has been no talk about MR at all. Reading this board every day really helps counter this though. Im amazed that everyone is in the same position with very similar scripts, it gives me comfort.
After i posted this W phoned to say goodnight to s3. We spoke about child arrangements which are, I currently have s13 every Wednesday night after football and drop him back at 7am, and have d10 every Saturday evening and she stays all Sunday morning. The rest of the time i used to spend most of the other times either at Ws house with the kids or out a a family. I have 180d this now as it was stopping me detaching and not letting her experience the separation for what it is.
W stated she didnt think it was fair on s13 as he has less time staying with me. I replied that these arrangements are temporary and in the long term I need to see them at least half of their time with their parents. I also said s13, who has aspergers and adhd, needs to be with me much more now he is getting older so he can learn from me how to be a man. For example he needs to see me shower every morning, not showering enough is currently an issue for him. I explained that as time goes on I wont be spending less time with him, but much more.
This discussion has arose because of my 180s that involve going to her house to see the kids, and her less. Something is finally happening in this limbo, im not sure what and if its progress or not but at least things are finally changing.
Why don't you have 50/50 custody right now?
Ive thought about this and come up with three reasons why I havent asked for that yet.
1. Because I thought this whole crazy situation was a mistake which would blow over sooner than now.
2. Because I was seeing my kids every day at the former family home up until a few weeks ago
3. Because I didn't want to disrupt my kids lives more than necessary
If my sitch doesnt change soon I will have to either see them more at Ws house, as a family, or have them more with me alone.
L,
You should see a lawyer right away about your options starting with you moving back into the martial Home and split custody.
She is cake eating big time. She wants out she needs to leave.
I wrote this story today. Thought mine would be resolved quickly and almost 4 years later it is still going on.
Everything you do from here has to be from a position of strength.
Good luck!
Thanks for your input LH, its much appreciated.
Although I have to say, wow your post fills me with fear, which I am starting to get used to now. This nightmare isnt about to end anytime soon I need to get stronger.
This nightmare roller coaster often gets worse before it gets better. Use the time to become the best you possible so no matter what the outcome is- You will be victorious.
Finally dropping the rope will be such a huge relief, I wish I could do it now.
lusa, letting go, and showing her you are letting go, are what worked best in my sitch. After 2 days following BD of pitiful, woe is me clingy-ness I found an anti-divorce expert (not MWD) that taught "Let Her Go To Get Her Back". So on day 3 after BD I started instituting letting her go. I started by telling her that after 2 days of thinking things over I realized that it takes two to make a MR, but only one to make a D. As such there was nothing I could do to prevent her from executing her plan: get a job, get an apartment and get a D.
Then my actions followed that up. I offered to help her with her resume, and to buy her resume and interviewing books. I started talking about the need to decide how and when we would let D14 know what was going on. But mostly I started to detach and differentiate. GAL, 180s, and being the best H I could be but not smothering her.
lusa, if you can drop the rope it is almost a guarantee she will be intrigued, want to know what is going on, hate the loss of control over you she feels, and just generally pique her curiosity. It was described to me like how a bar fight starts. Someone shoves someone, and the immediate reflex is to come back at the pusher. If you push her away emotionally her reflex will be to come towards you.
Yesterday W sent a message asking if I would pick up d10 from tennis after work and bring her home. I agreed and she offered to make food which I agreed to. We ate together, for the first time this week and discussed some plans regarding kids activities. I really feel she is respecting me more and making lots more kind gestures. For example she bought me a magazine to take on our holiday in a few weeks ago.
I proposed to go and cook food for us tonight and then I will go to a friends house to play guitar. I asked s13 if he wanted to watch the football match with me and explained I could either stay and watch it with him there or he could come to my house. He said hed prefer to come to my house, and stay the night again, which warmed my heart and intrigued W.
Later on when we got back there we found he had forgotten his pjs, W offered to bring them to my house as I had already done a lot of driving. When she arrived with d10 she said d10 had insisted W come in and see my house for the first time. I have been there 5 months now. She came in and I gave her a tour.
I feel I have now managed to detach much more than ever before, and she has definitely noticed. I am genuinely happier for the kids to come to me than me hang out at Ws house and she knows it. Refusing invitations and taking the kids away with me has definitely given her a glimpse of what true separation feels like and I dont think she likes it.
I have the feeling she is finally starting to consider R. We are going away as a family in 2 weeks and have a busy time before that with kids birthdays etc so I am going to not pull back too much and stay present, but as detached as possible during this time. In 3 weeks from now we will come back from holiday and if no progress towards R has been made I am going to pull back more than ever and properly implement LRT, increase my GAL activites and detach more than ever resulting in my finally dropping the rope.
I am finally feeling some freedom from my codependancy and that now she cant really do anything to hurt me more than she already has. Things can only get better for me from now on, whether we R or not.
I feel I have now managed to detach much more than ever before, and she has definitely noticed. I am genuinely happier for the kids to come to me than me hang out at Ws house and she knows it. Refusing invitations and taking the kids away with me has definitely given her a glimpse of what true separation feels like and I dont think she likes it.
A lot of mind-reading there, and mind-reading does not serve you well. You don't know what she has noticed and not noticed and what she thinks about it. You also do not know what she thinks about "true separation", she may love it. Don't try to use the kids as leverage against her. You can't make her miss her old life, any attempts to do that will just backfire on you.
I have the feeling she is finally starting to consider R.
It's too soon for that. I think you are trying to read things into the tea leaves that simply aren't there.
I am going to not pull back too much and stay present, but as detached as possible during this time. In 3 weeks from now we will come back from holiday and if no progress towards R has been made I am going to pull back more than ever and properly implement LRT, increase my GAL activites and detach more than ever resulting in my finally dropping the rope.
I fixed that for you.
I am finally feeling some freedom from my codependency and that now she cant really do anything to hurt me more than she already has. Things can only get better for me from now on, whether we R or not.
Good, yes this is true!
Read, understood and taken on board. Thank you so much for the sage advice AS.
On Sandis advice I have pulled back probably ten times in the last few weeks and it has really helped me detach and has been a huge 180 for me. I now feel I CAN live my life without her and can make it beautiful even if ATM i still really want us all to be together.
Due to family commitments I have been much more present at the house over the weekend, W seems much more receptive to me and eager for me to be there. I cant be less present at the moment because of both kids birthdays and going on holiday together in the next 10 days.
What I have been doing though is recognizing if I am doing something with expectations, and only choosing to do it if there are no ulterior motives. Its hard because often there are hidden contracts, motives and expectations underneath my actions.
Now im aware of that, I can just do my dad and husband thing for the right reasons, and incidentally her heart seems to have really started to soften. It has to be incidentally because I dont want to mind read why this is happening, but Ive really started mentally pulling back and losing expectation as this is happening. She is being more open when she talks about other people, not hiding her phone anymore, asking me to do things on her pc, and being happy for me to come to the house on my own.
She got upset last night over how s13 was treating her, which was the first time she had let me see her upset since BD. I managed to 180 this for the first time in our 14 year MR, and stood strong like a lighthouse, looked after the kids, and didnt go there with her. She came out of it and she apologized while we ate together. I dont need expectations about whether she noticed this 180, because i am really proud of myself for doing it and thats enough. As well as this board, i learnt it from the NGS book and in particular Steve Horsmon on you tube.
I know she certainly turned wayward around the end of last year, or possibly way before that. But I now think the fog has really started to lift. Im 95 percent sure she ended her EA months ago, I have pretty much followed all of sandis rules for 4 months now and like all lbs I cant help wanting to jump up and down and celebrate what i am seeing, but instead im voicing it on this board.
Thanks to this board I know I can now continue to keep my cool through any R talk she instigates. I have not dropped my guard and will not jump back into R too quickly or easily. From Sandis posts I know her resentment, disrespect and rebellion has to change, but I swear I am seeing them all slowly dissipate. I will hold out on our MR for true remorse and brutal honesty but I wont push for it all immediately.
She initiated a thank you hug tonight, I was surprised, its the first time its happened post BD. I havent let her go but I think I shifted enough in that direction for her to really feel it. A bit of that shift has stuck with me too.
I also feel more detached than ever although its not properly detached. Thanks to this board I have everything I need internally to properly let her go if necessary.
Ive just read the most powerful combination of words on this subject in Sandis reply to overrnbws post
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2795565#Post2795565They will stay with me throughout this sitch to use if I need to.
Do you really want to end all this b.s.? Do you want to know the secret of how to get your W back? Do you really? I can tell you in three little words. I don't think you'll do it, but I can tell the secret. Let her go.
It sounds as if you are feeling a lot better, and that's good news. Glad to see WW has soften a little. Let me give you fair warning about the holiday trip. This is not an absolute, but many times following a vacation, the WW will suddenly pull way back again. Even if she enjoyed the trip and got along with her H, if she's not ready for him to come back home.......or thinks he might believe they are getting close to reconciling, she'll detach, go cold, and send him spinning. So, don't be surprised.
I really hope you all have a great time. Don't let yourself get carried away and try to turn it into a romantic situation or attempt to reconcile. For goodness sake, stay away from any R talk. Just enjoy it for what it was meant to be........a fun family holiday. Let her see this new man she has put out there on the market......available.
As soon as you get back home, resume to your detached position. I promise, if she wants more, she'll pursue
you. Don't be eager to accept any invitations from her when first coming back from the trip. She needs to work to get you back. Know what I mean? Make her
work for you.......b/c you
are worth it.
The holiday went as planned, as you stated a fun family holiday with no romance, R talk or pressure.
I know W enjoyed it very much although it was strange playing happy families while still being officially separated.
Since our return, we have spent sometime together and I have GALed all weekend at a music festival. She has voiced concern about me leaving the home earlier than expected last week to see a friend and calling in half an hour later than expected last night. This seems very strange and controlling for a W who apparently does not want to be with me.
I am resuming my detached position of never initiating going there and only accepting some invitations. I am still finding this really hard as its so counter intuitive. I am getting used to the fact there might never be any chance of R or even a discussion about it ever again.
The six month lease I took on a property is up next month and I am considering giving them notice that I will move out. I think for financial reasons, not R reasons, I need to move back to the family home whether she agrees to it or not. However I am not sure how to bring this up with her as I would prefer to do it with her blessing than without.
The holiday went as planned, as you stated a fun family holiday with no romance, R talk or pressure.I know W enjoyed it very much although it was strange playing happy families while still being officially separated.
First, it's great that you were able to do this without putting pressure on her, well done. Second, YOU DON'T KNOW that she enjoyed it very much, or at all. WAS's are brilliant at "acting as if" while still being very done and ready to move on. It's REALLY easy for a LBS to get the wrong impression from this and think the WAS has changed their mind, and that results in temp checking which is usually a big setback. So don't watch her and try to read what she's thinking/ feeling, she WILL notice and that will feel like pressure to her. Remember this is a marathon, and that progress is all about baby steps. So celebrate the baby steps (such as the hug) internally but keep moving forward with your DB'ing.
She has voiced concern about me leaving the home earlier than expected last week to see a friend and calling in half an hour later than expected last night. This seems very strange and controlling for a W who apparently does not want to be with me.
It's not strange at all, when a LBS GAL's it's pretty common for the WAS to start asking questions. Again, don't misinterpret this. It doesn't mean she wants to get back together, she's just curious.
I am resuming my detached position
So I think you may misunderstand detachment, because you also said this a few weeks ago:
I have pulled back probably ten times in the last few weeks
Detachment isn't something you do now and then with pursuit in between. You don't turn it on and off. You either are detached, or you are not. I don't think you are yet, so that's something you definitely should work on.
I need to move back to the family home whether she agrees to it or not. However I am not sure how to bring this up with her as I would prefer to do it with her blessing than without.
It's been 6 months since you moved out? Do you have a L? This would be something to discuss with them, there may be legal implications since you voluntarily moved out and it's been so long. It's going to affect that conversation with your W. If you find out it's legal, then just sit down with her and tell her you are moving back in and when. Expect her to throw a tantrum, just tell her it's not a negotiation, you are just letting her know. If it's not legal, well that convo will be much different, you're stuck having to ask her permission to move back in and you are at her mercy as to whether she allows it or not.
Thanks for pulling me up on the mind reading again AS I am trying to catch myself. I think I possibly have temp checked tonight and it has resulted in a big setback.
As I stated above a combination of my current financial situation and my lease expiring has lead me to bring up the fact that I plan to move back in a months time. I didnt check with a L first as it just came out. I did google it though and short of a court order its legal here in the UK.
Me I plan to move back in a month
W you cant just move back without a decision being made on the MR
Me we dont have to discuss that until you are ready, and i wont push for that discussion. I can move back before it happens.
W I just dont know about the MR, we have been getting on a lot better since the S it would confuse the kids if you came back before a decision was made
Me I need to do this for financial reasons
W thats a not good enough reason and if the decision is made to D then we would have to sell the house.
Me OK if necessary we will sell the house. Trying to prevent me moving back here isnt fair. I left at your request 6 months ago out of my love for you and the kids. You are the one that wants out of the marriage, you are the one who has had an affair, you should be the one to leave.
W F off
I then left quietly.
Now Im scared and I am wishing I had just properly followed Sandis advice and pulled back properly and everyone elses advice on detaching.
This is the first time weve had a discussion like this in 4 months and she doesnt seem to want me back at all. I dont know if I was taking my balls back or backsliding hugely. At least I didnt beg her and cry like i did at BD.
It's been 10 days since this conversation and we've been acting normally with each other. I have taken this as a good thing because I need to move back in and I would prefer to do it without any grief from her or attempts to stop me.
Apart from the EA, there hasn't been any disrespectful behaviour from her since shortly after BD. She knows I won't tolerate disrespecful behaviour or an ongoing affair, as I never have. She has been as careful as she can to hide the EA from me, which hasn't been too hard for her whilst we've been separated.
I am trying not to snoop but have found a piece of paper when putting the trash out yesterday. It seems to be notes she has written before a conversation with OM. This could have been written 6 weeks ago or 6 days ago.
It's not too legible but states something along the lines of:
Yes talking to me does not help
What we did was wrong, should not
We (you) need to step back for a good long time
Enough we need to stop
and I agree that yes I know its true, you're fine, this just needs to stop
stop worrying now and go and write your book.
It was timeless, unstoppable, overwhelming, beautiful, never wrong, funny, was so good.
First note I've seen like this since one written in March stating
"Have you done anything we spoke about yesterday, I've been baking cakes with S13 and D10. I'm trying, trying to distract myself from you"
I am doing my best not to mindread this, but it does look like she has started to come to her senses / feel guilty / do the right thing and at least attempt to end the EA. I have read every single thread on here for months now and I feel I know what needs to happen before we can attempt R. I know where my boundaries are and I am in no rush to initiate an R talk. If and when she does initiate an R talk I know what i'll need from her to consider us trying.
I don't feel any urgency anymore, my feelings swing from mild anger to apathy with the situation, much more apathy than anger now. She can no longer hurt me any further as the damage has already been done, I don't know if she has it in her to work on her resentment and eventually feel remorse for what she's done. I also don't know if she'll be able to admit her EA, be honest about it and cooperate in a transparency plan. The great thing for me is I regularly feel that I just don't care anymore.
So, what are your plans at the moment? Do you intend to move back home? Will you be sleeping in the MBR?
If you intend to march back into the house, claim the MBR, and expect her to be transparent.......I think you will be faced with great opposition. With that said, I want you to understand that I am not opposed to the idea of a man going back to his house and rightfully claiming what is his. I am just saying that if his WW is not ready for him to return, he is in for a battle of wills.
Based on the stories I can recall where the H reclaimed his position in the home, the WW did not go down without a fight. You see, when the H agrees to leave the home at his WW's request, I believe she thinks that is the biggest step in her plan to gain freedom (getting the H out of the home). It is especially nice for her when the H is so willing to run her errands, do odd jobs around the house, chauffeur the kids, and then go back to his designated place at the end of the day. That is a lot of yummy cake for a WW! She sees herself holding the reigns of power in this relationship. If she decides to D, she already has the H out of the house, so the next step is just signing paperwork. If her affair doesn't gain speed, then she can keep the H at arms length, and still get served cake. She has the benefits from being legally M, and gets the affair partner on the side. So, if the H moves back home without her agreement, it really upsets her playhouse.
You cannot force transparency. A transparency plans requires the agreement & cooperation of a W who is willing to do whatever is necessary to save the M. If she has not agreed to end her affair and go NC with OM.......then the H would be setting himself up to look rather ridiculous, by laying out a plan of transparency for her. There is no way she's going to be transparent, when she's not willing to end the A and work on her M.
If the H tries to reclaim the MBR, the W may physically fight him, or she may call the police. We hear more & more of this type of WW reaction when the H tries to force his way back into the MBR, or force her to leave it. So, think carefully about the hill you want to die on.
Know the law. If you have a lawyer, check to make sure of your rights before you try to physically move your things into the house. There are some crazy laws, so don't assume you can do whatever you want, just b/c your name is on the mortgage. You don't want to be arrested for trying to enter your own house.
So, every man has to decide what is best for him. If he goes back to the house, he should not be navieve and expect his WW to be happy about it. I don't suggest he move his things back into the house without telling her, b/c that pretty much begs for war to break out. Also, if he has to sleep in a separate bedroom, he needs to weigh those options and determine if he is gaining or losing ground by moving back. I'm just saying he needs to think before leaping.
So, what are your plans at the moment? Do you intend to move back home? Will you be sleeping in the MBR?My plan is to move back into the family home I have lived in for 15 years. I’m not sure whether it was right to leave in January but I am sure it is right to go back now.
I have given notice on my tenancy so have to be out in the next 3 weeks. I have also given notice to WW that I will be moving back in. This was met with resistance, where I think I held my ground, but it certainly wasn’t agreed to.
It hasn’t been discussed since, except the next day on the phone where WW requested, the next time we discuss “us” should be out of the house as she said d11 had overheard, which I don’t think was true. I wasn’t discussing “us” just informing her I need to move back in. I am in no rush for an R talk, that can happen if and when she’s ready. The problem is she feels any talk of me moving back is tied to an MR discussion/decision so I have realized it is too much pressure to bring it up again. I have stated what I need to do and now feel that is enough.
It has now been nearly two weeks since the discussion without it being mentioned again, even though we have been alone together in the house quite a few times. I feel it’s good she hasn’t initiated a discussion intended to deter me, My plan is to move back in over the next 3 weeks and enjoy spending more time with my kids, fixing my house etc, regardless of what she does.
I have been virtually living there anyway, just not sleeping and waking there and this whole time has been in complete harmony with no pressure or pursuit. I think we both would go so far to say we've been consistently getting on much better than the entire 12 months leading up to BD. I think this is down to my DBing, following the rules, and implementing consistent 180's concerning patience, communication & parental responsibilities. Thanks to so many kind people on this board, i'm in a much better place as a person than I was a few months ago.
I am pretty sure she has gone NC with OM and is dealing with the withdrawal. I certainly won’t initiate an R talk and I'm in no rush for her to. Re
transparency, I won’t even mention the word, unless we are at a point where she is really asking what I need from her to rebuild trust and stating that she is willing to do anything necessary. She is leaving her phone out and her pc on much more now and has never been very good at hiding things anyway, so it might not be needed
I realize this is a marathon, and that the mess of the EA needs to be resolved before she can work on releasing her resentment and consider working on our MR. I am ready for this process to take many, many months and won’t be surprised if it doesn’t happen at all. I’ve made my peace with the fact it’s out of my control and she has to make her own decisions on her own journey. I have also dealt with my anger with what’s happened, or for kids sake I wouldn’t be moving back in.
There certainly could be some resistance to me moving back into the MBR. I have a plan to clear some space in the attic, so if necessary I can sleep up there. I would prefer to be in the MBR, especially now I realize how symbolic it is, but I’m not going to die on a hill for it. I will let her have it for now if it’s that important to her, but won’t volunteer that information up front.
I’ll check with a L regarding the legality of me moving back. But I know for a fact if she tries to legally stop me I will properly implement the LRT and go darker on her than I ever have with everything except kids necessities. Me enabling this cake eating in the throne of power has to stop whether I am living there or not.
At the weekend she brought up the issue of me moving out of my current place on 2 separate occasions. The first time she said she can’t believe I have given notice and am just presuming I will move back to the family home with no plan B or plan C. She then asked I think about it and come up with plans B & C to show her.
The next day she brought it up again, I think because I was clearing the attic and she knows it is linked to me planning to return. This is roughly how the conversation went:
W You can’t just move back to the home that lightly, we have to agree to work on the MR before you can come back and that’s not going to happen in the next 2 weeks.
It will confuse the kids if you come back and then leave again.
H I won’t leave again
W What if I need you to leave again after 2 weeks?
H I’ve changed, the old behaviours you found intolerable aren’t there anymore
W I don’t believe that, and I can’t see it. You haven’t shown me your financial plan or gone on an anger management course. You haven’t taken me out.
H Can I take you out?
W Yes
H Thank god for that (it just came out). You know I couldn’t do any of this because you have refused to discuss anything with me for so long.
W I had nothing to say to you. I don’t want to hurt your feelings, I think it’s best we co-parent separately. I’m scared that you are just being nice to get what you want and when I don’t give it to you, you will turn nasty. We’ve got on much better since we have been separated, but as friends.
H We have got on much better but it’s because I have woken up and because of my changes. True separation / D is such a big decision with huge ramifications. Don’t you think we should try to reconcile before making that decision?
W Instigating our separation was also a big thing that I didn’t do lightly. Where were you planning on sleeping here?
H If you have an issue with the MBR, then in the attic or on the sofa
W The attic isn’t conducive for sleeping and your not sleeping on the sofa. I remember when S14 was 5 (9 years ago) and saw you sleeping on the sofa, he said mummy I don’t think daddy likes you anymore.
(This is so typical of our conversations, she always brings up random incidents from the past that I’ve never heard before but make me look bad)
W If you move back in I will put the house up for sale immediately (and then corrected herself to “we” will put the house up for sale immediately, she's so entitled she keeps referring to all our shared possessions as hers)
W I get to decide who I want to share my bed with. I need to be with someone who I want to throw my arms around.
H Feelings can change over time
W They also might not
So there it is a difficult R talk that I made lots of mistakes in and am not proud of. It’s easy to not initiate R talks, but when she initiates and asks direct questions I seem to lose it and just blurt out the truth – that I still love her and want to R
Despite my 180’s she is constantly looking for any instance she can use against me and prove her decision to S was right. It’s such a steep uphill battle, I am ready to give up completely. There is so much resentment in her that has taken years to build up, I have to be realistic our chances of R are not even 10%. She’s made her mind up and she is very stubborn.
I feel it’s strange that we can have a conversation like this and then the next day she asks if we can go on a family day out on Sunday and if I will consider us all going camping with family friends next weekend.
So my plan is to move back in anyway and take whatever consequences that creates. I almost don’t care if she moves out or we have to put the house up for sale anymore. Even though I’m scared of the consequences I’m going to do it any way, I’ve had enough.
If this happened with her agreement, it would be much easier for everyone and she wouldn’t lose face. I don’t need this decision to be tied to our MR but she has made it clear she does. So I am going to for the first time initiate an R discussion and ask her if she will agree to me moving back and us working on the MR. I’ll provide the financial info, show her I’m booked on anger management and ask her on a date.
If she doesn’t agree I’ll tell her I’m moving back anyway and she can choose what to do about it.
i didn't have to initiate the R talk as she brought up me moving back. She basically said I can move back this week on a 3 month trial to see what happens with us. Then said she didn't want R talks, she didn't want me to sleep in the MBR, still needed space to talk to friends etc. She even said she didn't want me to follow her around I certainly haven't done that, or really any behavior like that thanks to this board.
She said she doesn't want me to see this as us trying but we can go out without the kids and spend time together, as we don't have much money ATM maybe for walks etc. She asked me not to pressure her to R and see if it happens naturally. So we are going to tell the kids that I'm moving back in as friends with W ATM.
She said after 3 months if things aren't better between us then she'll prefer to buy me out of the mortgage than sell the house. She said in 15 years there were some good times (1st time I've heard that since BD) but not nearly enough. And that even if I have changed, she hasn't.
I know I haven't come out of this with any respect and that is important. But I had to solve this financial issue, now I have respite from that situation I will work on rebuilding respect. I also need to properly accept the reality of D and love myself enough to properly know I will be ok.
I've learnt many things here that have really helped me change my behaviour, which has resulted in her offering this. Now I know I really need to pull more 180's namely on snooping & alcohol, DB properly and detach.
Just keep DBing, lusa. Don't get ahead of her feelings and don't slip back into old ways. Consistency. Patience and perseverance. And even more patience. Read the validation thread again. Keep the pressure off and just keep earnestly working on yourself.
Yes, obviously accept the reality of D. But don't assume anything one way or the other. Be genuine and honest in your changes and you'll at least know you gave her the best you that you could and if she still doesn't come around, then it's ultimately her loss.
I applaud you moving back in the way that you did and although you think you didn't gain any respect back by doing so, I'm not so sure.
Keep at it my friend and you may yet be surprised. Rooting for you.
Thanks for your kind words Hongaku,
Well there was some immediate pushback from her the next morning stating things like "you need to look for somewhere else immediately", we will tell the kids this is very temporary while you find somewhere else etc.
D11 cried when W told her, W said it was because she was "confused" and I shouldn't be coming back like this as it will confuse them. The truth is she was crying due to W reiterating that even though I was coming back we weren't getting back together.
Then for the next 3 days she was really nice and we got on well, I slept there on the sofa one night as we left early for a family day trip. We've eaten together every night and I've helped W with her work.
Then just now she has called me at work spewing about how wrong it is that I am coming back, how confusing for the kids, how we've not naturally got any closer over the 6 months we have been S. (I pointed out this is obviously due to her EA). How we will never get back together and should have divorced years ago. How she now feels really stressed and trapped.
I just validated the best I could and said we should talk calmly about the options when the kids aren't around - she was anything but calm. I haven't been stressed or angry for a long-time, but she seems to often be like that now. This obviously isn't going to be easy - but it's my house too and financially I have to do this for now. We'll just have to see what happens, I'll keeping DBing and keeping remembering believe nothing that she says. I'd be on a terrible roller coaster if I did as she keeps completely flipping her attitude from day to day.
I'll just take a deep breath and carry on!
An hour later she's calls being nice asking me to come over and see the kids. I did this and she just was acting normally, chatty and cordial.Then I went to see my IC, who I have seen 3 times before, soon after BD. The first time with W and then on my own. Six months later I went to ask him about his anger management sessions, although ironically it is W that needs them, not me.
I told the IC what had happened to me internally over the last six months and about this board. It was the first time in six months I had just sat in a chair and told everything. He responded with what I can best call admiration and respect, the last time he saw me I was a pitiful, angry mess.
Some of the things I remember he said:
"Wow you've really done the work"
"it's rare for men to do the work you've done"
"I know you're not putting this on"
"You are in an authentic place"
He quizzed me about what I had done with the pain and we talked about really feeling it and moving through it.
I left feeling really proud and validated, what a great session. I'd recommend anyone who has never tried an IC just to give it a go if possible.
The recent spewing is very likely a form of testing behavior on her part, and likely not even a conscious thing. She was almost certainly at a subconscious level expecting you to exhibit "more of the same" behavior - you being a pitiful, angry mess in response to the spew. You didn't respond that way. You did exactly the right thing in response. She will likely do this sort of thing again more than once. Just keep Dbing, lusa. I think you're doing great.
Some of the things I remember he said:
"Wow you've really done the work"
"it's rare for men to do the work you've done"
"I know you're not putting this on"
"You are in an authentic place"
Awesome! That's great that he sees your changes. Your W will too, but she won't believe they are real changes at first. Because like your IC said it's rare for men to do the work you've done. So keep it up, and give your W time to believe.
Thanks for your encouragement AS. Her reaction to these changes so far has been to ignore them and then jump on any little incident or word said that she can use to prove I haven't changed. She'll repeatedly bring things like this up and I just let it roll off my back when she does.
I am back in the FFM and she has made it very obvious she isn't happy about it. I am pleased to say I am finally starting to feel properly detached from her. It no longer matters to me what she says or does, it has become easy to focus on just myself and the kids.
I have realised that the W I so desperately wanted to R with no longer exists. It's ironic that she doesn't want to be with the man I used to be and I don't want to be with the woman she has become.
Thanks for your encouragement AS. Her reaction to these changes so far has been to ignore them and then jump on any little incident or word said that she can use to prove I haven't changed. She'll repeatedly bring things like this up and I just let it roll off my back when she does.
I am back in the FFM and she has made it very obvious she isn't happy about it. I am pleased to say I am finally starting to feel properly detached from her. It no longer matters to me what she says or does, it has become easy to focus on just myself and the kids.
I have realised that the W I so desperately wanted to R with no longer exists. It's ironic that she doesn't want to be with the man I used to be and I don't want to be with the woman she has become.
lusa, wow, that is a very very astute final phrase in your post. I will be borrowing that one!
I have realised that the W I so desperately wanted to R with no longer exists. It's ironic that she doesn't want to be with the man I used to be and I don't want to be with the woman she has become.
Lusa, that is very well said. This is almost exactly what I said in IC this week (you just said it much better because I kinda fumbled my way to it). It helps to know there are others going through the same problems, feelings and emotions. Thank you.
The key to DBing is to 1) prepare yourself no matter what the future holds 2) remove all pursuit and pressure from the WAS to try to coax them to get curious about why that went away and come looking 3) to not remind them of what they have stated they want or how they feel
1 is what GAL, detachment, and 180s are all about. 2 is as I described. But 3 is a really big key. This is why saying "I love you" is something LBSs shouldn't say. Because it reminds the WAS that they DON'T love you. At least that is not how they feel at the moment. When you take away pursuit and pressure it allows the WAS room to breathe and to even potentially forget that they've already decreed that they are leaving.
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Quoted for truth and reinforcement of what I need to do.
Just journaling, in case it can help other members in a similar sitch.
I've been back home a week now, enjoying less financial pressure, more time with the kids and the occasional times with W. I am still sleeping on the couch as I've chosen not to die on the MBR hill.
Friday night afer playing with the kids I went out GAL, W wasn't happy about it and said she should be going out intead as she had been stuck in the house for too long. I explained I am always happy to stay with the kids anytime she wants to go. She moaned on the phone to her friends about me "treating the place like a hotel" etc, which is so untrue.
As we went through Saturday she worked herself up even more and then in the evening the inevitable spewing happened again. She blatantly started verbally attacking me in front of the kids, which is out of character for her. I really don't like them being witness to it and it shocked them. S14 called her out on it straight away so she eventually got me in a room alone, and the following conversation ensued through her clenched teeth.
H Stop attacking me
W This is what happened before
H What
W That the kids were unhappy
H Because of you
W Because I am stressed out because you are here, this is how I feel when you are here. This is why we can't be together. I don't want to have another argument with you in my life.
H Well stop arguing then
W I was done with it, I don't want this
H Well stop it then
W So are you going to go?
H No
W Your not going to leave this house?
H No
W Not ever?
H I don't yet know, I do know I've just spent 10k renting over the last 6 months and I was lied to by you.
W I can't live like this, don't you understand its affecting the kids all the time
H You are affecting the kids, you need to control your anger, its horrible for it to come out in-front of them and its aggressive.
W This isn't working
H What isn't?
W This isn't working you being here
H You need to control yourself, look what your doing to everyone
W I need you to go, I need you to find somewhere to live, we are not going through what we went through at Christmas, we've all had enough.
H No we're not. You've had an affair
W I have not had an affair
H Yes you have had an affair (a bit louder)
W You know what, I am going to call your mom (to act the victim and ask her to appeal to me to leave for the kids sake) Then she left the room, and retired to the MBR to cry and call her friends.
Next morning, she's upbeat, we had a nice family trip out, do some house jobs together, eat nice meals together, she ran me a bath, just pleasant interaction all day. The day ended in her choosing to join me on the couch with the kids to watch a late movie together. It's like she was a completely different person to the night before. This has continued into today, my recent detachment has really protected me emotionally regardless of how she chooses to treat me. S14 has continued to bring the incident up and forced her to apologize to both of us, she has done this and said it was out of character for her, and that she is only human, I haven't made a big deal of it at all.
Thanks to the kind posters quoted below, I was prepared for this spewing and didn't lose my cool under the aggressive pressure.
If you find out it's legal, then just sit down with her and tell her you are moving back in and when. Expect her to throw a tantrum, just tell her it's not a negotiation, you are just letting her know.
If you intend to march back into the house, claim the MBR, and expect her to be transparent.......I think you will be faced with great opposition. With that said, I want you to understand that I am not opposed to the idea of a man going back to his house and rightfully claiming what is his. I am just saying that if his WW is not ready for him to return, he is in for a battle of wills.
Based on the stories I can recall where the H reclaimed his position in the home, the WW did not go down without a fight. You see, when the H agrees to leave the home at his WW's request, I believe she thinks that is the biggest step in her plan to gain freedom (getting the H out of the home). It is especially nice for her when the H is so willing to run her errands, do odd jobs around the house, chauffeur the kids, and then go back to his designated place at the end of the day. That is a lot of yummy cake for a WW! She sees herself holding the reigns of power in this relationship. If she decides to D, she already has the H out of the house, so the next step is just signing paperwork. If her affair doesn't gain speed, then she can keep the H at arms length, and still get served cake. She has the benefits from being legally M, and gets the affair partner on the side. So, if the H moves back home without her agreement, it really upsets her playhouse.
The recent spewing is very likely a form of testing behavior on her part, and likely not even a conscious thing. She was almost certainly at a subconscious level expecting you to exhibit "more of the same" behavior - you being a pitiful, angry mess in response to the spew. You didn't respond that way. You did exactly the right thing in response. She will likely do this sort of thing again more than once.
Good job, lusa. Keep it up.
Consistency and patience. Keep working on yourself and being the best you. Don't let her catch you off guard and suck you into a fight - she will probably try again. If you keep being consistent, with any luck you will start to notice less frequency and intensity with it. Good luck. I really wish I was where you were at. I'm meeting with lawyer next week for a free 30 minute consultation and I'm going to specifically ask what my rights are with regard to my moving back in. I think you've done exactly the right thing and the work you've put in on yourself since you've been out is going to pay off one way or another.
Hey lusa, how are things going?
Nothing has changed Hong, so not really anything to post.
As Steve said "Limbo is the gift of time".
The spewing seems to have stopped for now, although if either of the kids are upset for any reason she makes vague references to it being my fault that they are are confused as "I've moved back in without anything changing between us", I just ignore it.
I'm not particularly happy with the dynamic, especially sleeping on the couch, but I don't expect anything to change soon. Just working on being the best man I can be for me and the kids. I do seem to be doing much better at detaching, I think it has become even more important during this in-house seperation.
As you are aware I had to move back for financial reasons, I don't think it was necessarily the best thing for my chances of R. It's definitely impossible for her to miss me when I am there all the time and I am still allowing her to cake-eat.
My desperation to R has slowly changed over-time into an acceptance of what will be, which is a relief. It's enough to be working on being the best I can be and remembering that I can't control others.
I wish I could help advise you or post on others threads, but I still feel I am not wise enough to do that yet.
Nothing has really changed in my sitch, except we have been out as a family a lot more recently and been getting on a lot better. Things are much calmer and W seems much more relaxed around me. I have had chance to validate a lot more too, mainly about situations that have occurred with her friends and her work which she likes to tell me about.
I feel I am detaching more, I'm now glad there hasn't been any R talk and know I am certainly not as keen to R as I was while I was out of the house. Now I am back home, seeing my kids more and less financial pressure I'm not sure if I really want to R with this woman anymore. I have started to come out of the LBS fog and realise the MR problems were 50/50 and we have both blamed me far too much, she has also broken my trust and been instrumental in putting us through nearly a decade of SSM with very little intimacy. I deserve to be with a woman who wants me for who I am and that will stay faithful to me.
I read this today that Steve posted on Terapin's thread and it really resonated with me. I think if right now she asked for R I wouldn't be that interested in R with her but would just be happy that I was the one deciding that instead of her.
This brings up another dynamic I've seen. Where the LBS is less interested in actual R and piecing as much as they are just trying to prove the can get her back! This is danger zone time. I've seen this with other posters, even some that have gone beyong the point of no return, where they insist they aren't even interested in ever getting back together with their WAS, but their actions and words belie them. You can tell they want validation of an apology, or to see some remorse, or even for the WAS to want to come back, (or at least say they do). Again this is a cheeseless tunnel. It will continue to trip you up emotionally and it will cause you to do and say things that are detrimental to your sitch, to yourself, and to future coparenting if you never get back together.
and I am still allowing her to cake-eat.
SO do a 180 on that.
I think if right now she asked for R I wouldn't be that interested in R with her but would just be happy that I was the one deciding that instead of her.
Has anyone filed for D? If you are not interested in Ring then you can BE the one to decide that by filing for D. (another 180)
Thanks Steve, that's certainly food for thought. I read your comments on peoples sitches every day and have learnt such a lot from you.
It's been a while - so I thought I should update my thread.
I've been back home 9 weeks now:
I'm still sleeping on the couch
I'm still DBing to the best of my ability
I haven't backslid on my 180's, mainly involving getting angry with her or the kids.
There has been no R talk, pursuit or pressure
There have been no arguments, good interactions with humour and lots of validating from me.
I have noticed what I think are movements towards R
W has asked to help with my budgeting, stating we will be debt free in 12 months.
W has been showing me new family houses she has been looking at that we could potentially move to, I don't get excited about this anymore - it's funny because I'd have given anything for her to bring something like this up 6 months ago.
W has been making me packed lunches to take to work every day.
I am definitely becoming more detached and having hardly any expectations has resulted in me rarely being disappointed or frustrated. I don't know what the future holds or what I want anymore. I've learnt I would be able to forgive her properly, but don't know if it's possible to rebuild my trust in her to the extent I'd need to. I have been reading Sandi's WW threads a lot as I want to ensure I don't make any of the classic mistakes of taking her back too easily if the situation arises.
lusa, good to hear from you!
Interesting update.
I remember, (and this is documented in my threads) that after it was obvious we were Ring and piecing that I suddenly had a desire to walk away myself and file for D. It was a strange feeling. For months I had been insistent that R and saving my marriage is what I wanted, but when it looked like we were headed that way I had the urge to split up.
I think LBS sometimes are so reactionary that they don't stop to ask what it is they want. It is like sandi says, we have this image of our perfect spouse and in the midst or our sitch don't stop to think about how miserable we might have been and that maybe we want out.
However, what won me over was my W's own 180s. And this is important. We have to own our marital garbage, but so does the WAS. So make sure if you have boundaries that she is aware of those. that there is work she needs to do, conditions she needs to agree to in order for you to agree to R.
ANd for goodness sake please take your bed back!
I went to bed in the MBR last night and slept in it with W till the morning, there was no mention of it being a problem. Just regular morning talk. Thanks for the final push Steve, it looks like I've finally reclaimed my place in the MBR!
I went to bed in the MBR last night and slept in it with W till the morning, there was no mention of it being a problem. Just regular morning talk. Thanks for the final push Steve, it looks like I've finally reclaimed my place in the MBR!
lusa, extremely proud of you! Congratulations. And keep up the good work!
Thanks Steve, your encouragement has been much appreciated.
Over the last 3 weeks, there's been more of the same behavior between myself and W. We went out to lunch on our own this week and both really enjoyed each others company. She's been touching my arm almost every-time she talks to me, calling me pet names and still bringing up all of us moving to a bigger house and showing me houses she's found.
I've just had the week off work to coincide with the kids school holidays and done plenty of GAL activities with them leaving W to work. I read a comment by AS regarding gifts given to the LBS and valuing time with my kids and making memories has certainly been one of mine. Still working on keeping my 180's going regarding alcohol and anger and sticking to the 37 rules.
Now I'm back in the MBR we have been going to bed early together and watching tv, she has been very slowly moving closer to me, culminating in her initiating sex the other night.
This has happened exactly 300 days since BD but still with no R talk. I'm sure her EA is over and it seems that she has stopped all disrespectful and rebellious behavior. I know she still has a lot of internal work to do regarding her resentment towards me but this is definitely going in the right direction.
I'm concentrating on not changing and starting to pursue as a result of this. I feel that thanks to my DB'ing I have finally managed to create a space where she feels safe enough with me to let some of the ice around her heart melt a bit and start to let go of some of her resentment.
Please start a new thread as this one may be locked in the next day or so. Also, please link this thread to your new one and vice versa. Many thanks!