Affair, no feelings...is there hope? IV

[44tries]

Previous threads:

Part I: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2783627#Post2783627
Part II: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2785704#Post2785704
Part III: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2787496#Post2787496

[44tries]

When she starts to do the whole "I don't deserve sympathy" routine, that roughly translates to "please give me sympathy" in WW speak.

She does the whole self deprecating thing because she wants you to be the "Nice Guy,' and tell her it's all okay.

It's not okay. She needs to keep hearing that early on. Forgiveness and sympathy is for her, not for you. You will heal at your own pace which is different for everybody. You will forgive at you own pace, too, so when you say it, you need to be ready to mean it.

This is what I had suspicions of and you and Sandi confirmed it. Makes total sense. I will make sure I don't fall for it and give her any kind of comfort. I'll make it clear it's not okay.

You need to play it out like you know WAAY more than you actually do about her tryst, so keep the questions to a minimal, and let her dig her own hole.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking, which is why I didn't ask many questions.

There's lot of other stuff, but I wanted you to be thinking about those two things before all the dust settles. You don't know how this will all play out, and it will be a LOONNG play-like years long- and there are lots of different roads you both will travel in that time.

Right now, you are confident and strong and are becoming your best version. Your focus is still on what is best for you.

All she needs to know is that you know you will be fine and will come out stronger and better on the other end (you will. We never fully feel that way, but we all do).

Thanks, man, I really appreciate it. This really excellent advice. I will keep those two things in mind.

[44tries]

It is manipulative. I've seen the same thing reported hundreds of times. When she says this type of stuff, she actually wants just the opposite. She wants you to feel sorry for her and show her tenderness and sympathy. (Google hard hearted wife). You don't have to be cruel or cold as an ice burg. However, you can't give in to your urges to say something comforting to her. Present a stoic front, and let her wonder how you feel. She is extremely self-centered. It is the nature of the WW. I pray that during this time away, God will confict her heart and she really will repent for the disrespectful treatment she gave you and seek to have the right feelings of a loving W. If she gets her heart right with God, that's a good start in healing the MR...........but, that part is between her and Him. As the H, your part is stepping up to be the dominent male in the MR and in the home. She will have to learn to remove her military uniform when she comes home from work. Lots of women who are in an employed position of authority forget to change hats when they go home.......just like some men forget how to interact with his W and children after dealing with very stressful issues all day at work. Neither of them are going to respond well if they start shouting orders at home. Regardless of their position on the job....both spouses have to regroup, so to speak, and wear the appropriate hat for the home, bedroom, family, etc.

This all makes sense. I won't give in to any urges to comfort her.

I think she loves you, but she acts like a spoiled brat. I don't think she knows how to value the MR. At least that's what her actions say. It has gone past being extreme and has gotten completely out of control. I hope you see that you can never allow it again. While she's gone, I hope to talk to you about setting boundaries.

I would love to talk about setting boundaries.

What she said about the sexual issue......I use to feel the same way. I have explained how a W's attraction is tied to her level of respect for her H. I had gone through so many years of a SSM that I thought there was something sexually wrong with me. Yes, my H played a big part, b/c he would not stand up to me and just stonewalled (which was the worst thing he could have done with me). He stopped initiating and even stopped sleeping with me. He was not a dominant male in the bedroom (or anywhere else) that I needed, so it left me feeling as if my insides had died. That is an awful feeling. It was not just the lack of sex, but the lack of an intimate relationship and the sheer loneliness that made me very vulnerable to some man who showed me the right kind of attention. My feminine ego was starving, and once I had a little taste of male attention, it did play a part in tempting me for "more". When I discovered I had normal sexual responses, I felt alive for the first time in years......and I was hooked almost instantly. It's like a strong drug, and that's why it is hard to end an affair.

This is really good insight.. and also crushing for me. It kills me to think I made my W feel that way. And I can definitely see why it would cause such vulnerability to cheating.

If you will continue on your path to being a dominant male in your home, and especially when interacting verbally, physically, and sexually with your W........her attraction will return, if she'll just cooperate. She will have to show respect, even if she doesn't feel it. That is key. It will take her being willing to put away her demanding ways, stop trying to rule over you, and drop the entitlement. A woman does not sexually desire a man she can rule (unless in a kinky female dominant fantasy.....but it doesn't work in a real relationship).

I don't know how she was raised or what type of dynamics she saw between her parents. But, it's never too late to learn something new. There is too much available information out there for her not to learn, if she is willing. She has to be cooperative. She has to put forth the right action in order to get the feelings in return.

The WW operates out of her emotional frame of mind. It's all about "her feelings", which is evident in your W's conversations. The main thing she is concerned about in reconciling or trying again......is how she will feel. Just between you and I, her feelings are not the most important issue right now. Remorse (which is another feeling) is not the most important issue, or even her commitment. The most important thing needed is her willingness to do the necessary work. If she cooperates, then these other things will come........if her heart is right. As long as her heart is resentful and selfish......then those feelings won't come b/c you just can't have a loving, happy MR with resentment, selfishness, and disrespect in the heart.

And how will I know if she gains this willingness? She will say so?

Forget about the sexual stuff right now. She'll bring it up, b/c she's concerned about her feelings, but I don't want you making it an issue at this time. Don't even try to assure her that the feelings will return. B/c when a man tries to tell a woman about her feelings......it doesn't seem to have a good affect.

Got it, I will try to minimize discussion about the feelings issue and not talk at all about how she can fix it.

When she comes home, and if you decide together to stay in the M, it has to be with the understanding that she is all in.....not just part way. She needs to know that she will sleep in the same bed with you. There are to be no more separate bedrooms while living under the same roof. She is either all in....or all out. She doesn't get to set the rules by what she wants. You are the betrayed spouse, and she cheated, so that pretty much forfeited her game rules. As long as there are separate bedrooms, the chances of increasing an intimate MR is not near as good as when sharing the same bed....and having the same bedtime. Know what I mean?

Yes, I know what you mean. I completely agree, this is the only way I want the reconcile to go if it's going to happen. But back to my question above, will this be obvious and she will say so? Or how do I know when I go from unaccepting to knowing she is all in? I am preparing for something wishy washy where she says she wants to try but doesn't really believe it will work and isn't really willing to give up her demands. I guess maybe thats the answer ^^ she no longer makes demands?

[44tries]

44, you're getting some really great advice, especially from Sandi and Artista. I'm just going to say that I wholly approve of what they are advising you on how to deal with your WW. If you read other threads on these forums just please keep in mind that your sitch is different than most, you're dealing with the worst kind of lying, rebellious, immature, controlling and manipulative WW. The advice we offer others does not apply to you.

Yours is a textbook case for going well and truly dark and I'm not sure why you haven't done it yet. Don't believe ANYTHING coming out of your W's mouth. She's lying about just kissing OM, she's lying about being worried about you, she's lying about anything and everything. What is the use of talking to her if nothing but lies stacked on lies comes out of her mouth? There is no point. You get nothing from it, she gets nothing from it, your relationship gets nothing. SO STOP!!!! Time to get off the roller coaster.

I think at some point she'll hit rock bottom and then she may come to you with genuine humility, but that's not going to happen anytime soon. She may very well feign humility to bring you back under control so just expect it and be VERY wary. Any apparent attempt on her part to pull you into recon should be met with this response from you: "I don't know what I want, I have a lot of thinking to do and I think it would be best if we remained separated and out of contact for a while."

Erm...I'm getting a little bit turned around because I get very different vibes from your post and Sandi's, but you said you were agreeing with her advice. It seems Sandi is operating under the assumption that she was being genuine but remains very self-centered and you're operating under the assumption that she is completely full of sh!t. Sandi is talking about what to do if we work on the MR and you are saying I should be completely going out of contact (maybe you are just meaning while she is gone?).

I think in both cases I am nowhere near trusting her, but these still feel like two very different sets of advice.

[sandi2]

I

t seems Sandi is operating under the assumption that she was being genuine but remains very self-centered and you're operating under the assumption that she is completely full of sh!t. Sandi is talking about what to do if we work on the MR and you are saying I should be completely going out of contact (maybe you are just meaning while she is gone?).

Everyone is saying the same thing, 44. We are saying NC while she is gone on this trip. Don't believe anything she says while she is gone and trying to secure her position in the MR, b/c it is manipulation.

Yes, I was talking about working on the MR........but I thought I was clear about not contacting her while she is gone on this trip. We all are in one accord about NC while she is gone. No initiating and no responding. Sorry, if I was trying to give too much at once.

[44tries]

Okay, that makes more sense. He sounded like he was talking about long term, not a few days. Yes, we are clear about no contact on the trip.

[Mowgli]

1) Setting boundaries:

They are for you, not her. That's the key thing you need to understand right now.

There's lots of different boundaries you can set, but you need decide what you need to heal, and stick to boundaries that aid in that pursuit.

If you go back and look at how I handled stuff before I dumped the A knowledge on WW, you would see that I really struggled with boundary setting. In fact, I can say I really never set a boundary in our R until sh!t hit the fan.

My dad always told me to "Pick your Battles" and I really took that to heart. WW would complain about the stupidest stuff, and because it wasn't a big deal to me, I'd cave and give in or do whatever I had to do to make things right. Real typical NGS stuff, right?

What I learned was that I needed to take control of myself and be a man. Although I didn't have a problem with all of these "little things," perse, they were creating a big rift between W and I in terms of respectful communication, meaning that I was letting her b!tch at me for things that I was considering no big deal.

So a boundary that I set was that I wasn't going to be talked at, or be disrespected by not only WW, but anyone.

I told her right off the bat that I wasn't interested in going back to the M we had, that anything we started was going to result in a new M on a new foundation. There were times (still are times!) that the disrespect would start to creep in and I just have this thing that I say to her now, which is:

"you don't get to talk to me like that. I don't let anyone talk to me like that, and so you can't, either."

if it persists, I walk away, because you can only control yourself and your actions, right?

Boundaries are NOT for controlling others, they are for you to use to let people know what you will/will not tolerate to your persons.

2) How will you know wether or not she's "all-in?"

You won't for a while, which is why you believe none of what she says, and half of what she does. You'll know when you truly believe she's putting in the work because you're SEEING her put in the work day in, day out months from now. the key here is seeing, not her telling you she's committed.

That's it on #2. I know it seems simple, because it is in concept.

one last note on boundaries (I can give you more info, too, as I've gotten better at them post recoc):

Keep them simple and general and for you, AND stick to them. If you don't stick to your boundaries, she'll walk all over you again.

My boundaries are/were:

Respect

That's it, really.

Personal boundaries are for you and all relationships, but they start in your M.

The way I see things is if W respects me, all the other stuff gets taken care of naturally.

[artista]

Okay, that makes more sense. He sounded like he was talking about long term, not a few days. Yes, we are clear about no contact on the trip.

I will put my two cents in... I am disappointed that you had the conversation/the reveal over the phone... Why? Because you put your foot down and said you wanted to have it face-to-face... She disregarded you and pushed for her way... And you gave in... Instead of working on detaching (you are not detached, no matter what you try to tell yourself) you are engaging with her... You did not put into practice what it is to be a man with balls, and she did not get the consequence of going too far... Neither of you are taking this precious gift of space and time and using it to your advantage... Every time you communicate with her, you take away from your opportunity to become that man only a fool would leave...

Honestly, I don't know what else to tell you... All I have is CUT THE CONTACT! ENOUGH... MY gawd, see if you can live through one entire day without her... I promise you, you will not die! You are a grown man, not a baby who needs milk from his mommy... You see? You don't need her to survive... But if you want her, you MUST DETACH... otherwise, you will surely face the same fate as Tate... A wife who files while you are still fully stuck on her...

--artista

[LH19]

You are a grown man, not a baby who needs milk from his mommy... You see?--artista

Awesome lol!

[44tries]

1) Setting boundaries:

They are for you, not her. That's the key thing you need to understand right now.

This is a great reminder. Boundary setting is not something I have a lot of experience with (partly why I'm here). But I understand this is the fundamental key and will keep telling myself as I move forward and practice setting them.

If you go back and look at how I handled stuff before I dumped the A knowledge on WW, you would see that I really struggled with boundary setting. In fact, I can say I really never set a boundary in our R until sh!t hit the fan.

My dad always told me to "Pick your Battles" and I really took that to heart. WW would complain about the stupidest stuff, and because it wasn't a big deal to me, I'd cave and give in or do whatever I had to do to make things right. Real typical NGS stuff, right?

This is so me. So, so me.

What I learned was that I needed to take control of myself and be a man. Although I didn't have a problem with all of these "little things," perse, they were creating a big rift between W and I in terms of respectful communication, meaning that I was letting her b!tch at me for things that I was considering no big deal.

So a boundary that I set was that I wasn't going to be talked at, or be disrespected by not only WW, but anyone.

I told her right off the bat that I wasn't interested in going back to the M we had, that anything we started was going to result in a new M on a new foundation. There were times (still are times!) that the disrespect would start to creep in and I just have this thing that I say to her now, which is:

"you don't get to talk to me like that. I don't let anyone talk to me like that, and so you can't, either."

if it persists, I walk away, because you can only control yourself and your actions, right?

Boundaries are NOT for controlling others, they are for you to use to let people know what you will/will not tolerate to your persons.

Wonderful example. This is exactly what I am planning to do with my W if we get there. If she wants any kind of recon, the entire dynamic needs to change. She will know from day 1 that I won't let her talk to me like she used to.

2) How will you know wether or not she's "all-in?"

You won't for a while, which is why you believe none of what she says, and half of what she does. You'll know when you truly believe she's putting in the work because you're SEEING her put in the work day in, day out months from now. the key here is seeing, not her telling you she's committed.

That's it on #2. I know it seems simple, because it is in concept.

This makes sense to me. I am okay being patient and letting my trust and confidence be earned very slowly. The thing I keep telling myself is, the slower this all goes, the more likely it will be real and lasting. The hardest thing will be perpetually keeping my guard up and not becoming exhausted.

one last note on boundaries (I can give you more info, too, as I've gotten better at them post recoc):

Keep them simple and general and for you, AND stick to them. If you don't stick to your boundaries, she'll walk all over you again.

My boundaries are/were:

Respect

That's it, really.

Personal boundaries are for you and all relationships, but they start in your M.

The way I see things is if W respects me, all the other stuff gets taken care of naturally.

Great advice. I have the same mindset you do. Respect gets to the root of the issue and will be my number one priority. I do hope you will continue to give me info; I really appreciate and value your input from experience so similar to my own. Thanks, Mowgli!

[mtb1981]

A few months ago, my W told me she wanted to R. I broke one of Sandi's rules and I made the mistake of believing something she said. She said all the right things, but her actions were not aligning with what she was saying. I remember telling her when she came back that I needed 3 things from her to make this work. Honesty, Respect, and Loyalty. Over the next few weeks, I realized I was not getting any of these from her. Of course she said all the right things to get me to believe I was getting them, but her actions proved otherwise. Less than a month later, it was time for her to go again...

[44tries]

I will put my two cents in... I am disappointed that you had the conversation/the reveal over the phone... Why? Because you put your foot down and said you wanted to have it face-to-face... She disregarded you and pushed for her way... And you gave in... Instead of working on detaching (you are not detached, no matter what you try to tell yourself) you are engaging with her... You did not put into practice what it is to be a man with balls, and she did not get the consequence of going too far... Neither of you are taking this precious gift of space and time and using it to your advantage... Every time you communicate with her, you take away from your opportunity to become that man only a fool would leave...

Honestly, I don't know what else to tell you... All I have is CUT THE CONTACT! ENOUGH... MY gawd, see if you can live through one entire day without her... I promise you, you will not die! You are a grown man, not a baby who needs milk from his mommy... You see? You don't need her to survive... But if you want her, you MUST DETACH... otherwise, you will surely face the same fate as Tate... A wife who files while you are still fully stuck on her...

--artista

Artista, I'm sorry I disappointed you and I know I had a lapse in strength. I completely understand your point about communicating with her costing opportunities to grow.

I have no problem living one day without her...I get it, I hope I have not given the impression I am arguing about the contact. I am clear, and have told her I want all the time until she returns.

I mentioned before that after the confrontation I said I needed time but didn't give a timeline. I didn't hear anything from her most of the day yesterday until the evening and then she tried to reach out. She called about the banking password (I won't text passwords). She tried to make small talk; I could tell she was trying to be extremely nice and then she sent out a feeler about traveling for Memorial Day. I shut it down and told her we aren't talking about anything like that until she gets home. She texted me after we hung up and said "It was nice to talk to you." It was then that I told her I want the rest of the time until she returns (which is looking like Friday, maybe Saturday) and am going silent. Yes, it is hard, but I am on board, okay? No contact. Today has been fine.


Now, aside from GAL, I am just trying to prepare for what she will try when she gets back. I feel like this is going to be very new territory and I hope to talk to Sandi (and anyone else with input) more about boundaries. I'm a little at a loss for what to expect going forward. On one hand, I'm trying not to analyze or predict anything, but on the other I feel I need to be prepared and am not.

I also have another problem. I believe my W. I know, I know, she's likely a liar. She only cares about herself and I am as suspicious as I could be. If I had to bet money, I am on board with all of you, I would do the logical thing and bet she is lying. The problem is my gut instinct is not agreeing. What do I do about that? Just try to ignore it? This whole time, my gut instinct has been congruent with the truth. I've known about the A, deep down, since day 1. I've known when she lies. Now, I'm worried my detector is broken.

[mtb1981]

I also have another problem. I believe my W. I know, I know, she's likely a liar. She only cares about herself and I am as suspicious as I could be. If I had to bet money, I am on board with all of you, I would do the logical thing and bet she is lying.

Rule #32. Do not believe anything they say and 50% of what they do.

See my above post...

[SteveLW]

I think one of the boundaries that you can establish is complete transparency. If she has nothing to hide she should have no problem agreeing with that. This will also tell you if your lie detector is broken or not. Also, her agreeing to complete transparency and you using it to snoop are two different things. If she agrees it will always be in your rights to do, but since she agrees to it likely you won't have to. If she balks that is a red flag.

[44tries]

A few months ago, my W told me she wanted to R. I broke one of Sandi's rules and I made the mistake of believing something she said. She said all the right things, but her actions were not aligning with what she was saying. I remember telling her when she came back that I needed 3 things from her to make this work. Honesty, Respect, and Loyalty. Over the next few weeks, I realized I was not getting any of these from her. Of course she said all the right things to get me to believe I was getting them, but her actions proved otherwise. Less than a month later, it was time for her to go again...

Thanks for this, mtb. You posted even before my last post where I talked about struggling with believing her. I KNOW all the rules, I am trying so hard not to believe anything. But it's hard to convince that deep down part of you. I'm working on it. Your story really helps. You are right ultimately it's the actions that will show the truth...I guess I will be patient and guarded and see what happens. I am doing my best to objective (detached) and prepared for anything.

[44tries]

I think one of the boundaries that you can establish is complete transparency. If she has nothing to hide she should have no problem agreeing with that. This will also tell you if your lie detector is broken or not. Also, her agreeing to complete transparency and you using it to snoop are two different things. If she agrees it will always be in your rights to do, but since she agrees to it likely you won't have to. If she balks that is a red flag.

Great advice, Steve. I will definitely demand transparency. Once she is back and we have contact again, I am going to ask her for proof of the conversation she supposedly had about ending it. And proof of when they last had contact. I agree this will really help set my gut feelings straight. Even thinking about it helps build suspicion because my W has always been very resistant to prying into her personal space. It is hard to imagine her just agreeing to show me messages, etc. But if she balks, you're spot on, all the alarms will be going off.

[SteveLW]

I think one of the boundaries that you can establish is complete transparency. If she has nothing to hide she should have no problem agreeing with that. This will also tell you if your lie detector is broken or not. Also, her agreeing to complete transparency and you using it to snoop are two different things. If she agrees it will always be in your rights to do, but since she agrees to it likely you won't have to. If she balks that is a red flag.

Great advice, Steve. I will definitely demand transparency. Once she is back and we have contact again, I am going to ask her for proof of the conversation she supposedly had about ending it. And proof of when they last had contact. I agree this will really help set my gut feelings straight. Even thinking about it helps build suspicion because my W has always been very resistant to prying into her personal space. It is hard to imagine her just agreeing to show me messages, etc. But if she balks, you're spot on, all the alarms will be going off.

Ah this is good info. So you might want to tread lightly here. My W is the same way, she has always felt like her privacy was invaded if I asked to look through her phone. Of course, those that don't know us might say "well maybe she always has had something to hide". However, there are people that have hangups about this and you need to be sensitive to those hangups.

However, she needs to understand how you can't be sure of anything she says, since cheaters always lie, without proof.

[sandi2]

So how have you made since the last time you posted? NC, I hope.

As I said yesterday, I think we all are on the same page. I may adding too much, trying to prepare you. I don't want you getting confused again, okay? However, if you don't understand how or when something is to take place, just ask. If I know, I'll speak up.

This is really good insight.. and also crushing for me. It kills me to think I made my W feel that way. And I can definitely see why it would cause such vulnerability to cheating.

Don't take responsibility or blame for her decision to cheat. Don't make statements to her like the one quoted above. I understand what you mean, but she won't be mentally/emotionally in a place to hear it, without taking full advantage of you. Many LBH's say something along those lines, thinking they are meeting the WW half way. No, he can't says things that sound as if he is taking responsibility for any of her bad behavior. Those were her free choices to make. Waywardness is not forced on another person. It begins with a negative mental attitude toward the spouse. It's like a lazer beam that is directed solely at him. She blames everything wrong in her life on him. The disrespectful actions begin to reflect what is in the heart, and finally rebellion acts out. Currently, she will want you to take blame for everything that went wrong in the MR.....including her A. It will be a big mistake if you agree. If there was ever a time you stand up for yourself, it is now. Do not give in or back down, thinking it will work out. It's only enabling her wayward mindset.

Keep in mind the part you played......which was the passive, pick your battles, keep the W happy, yes dear, beta male characteristics. The more a man acts like another female, the less sexual attraction his W will feel for him. That's why I get all up in the air when men start talking about losing their best friend (their wife). She has other women who can be her best friends. The H should not be her BFF. His position (and her position) are uniquely established and designed by God to be loyal, intimate, sexual mates for a lifetime. They are more than partners. They are more than friends. They are lovers who are bonded together as one body. They have responsibilities in maintaining a loving and caring life together.....and to put it above all others. It takes a lot of effort to keep the flirtiness, playfulness, and sexiness in a lifelong MR. It takes a lot of effort to keep interested in what each other is doing, and to find a common activity you both really love doing together. It gets to be harder to find time to just be alone together and really pay attention to each other's emotional needs. If it stops, it won't be long until their daily lives and the sex becomes routine and dull.......and sex will probably taper off. They become more like roommates and learn to just "settle". Then if one spouse decides they can't live that way any longer and leaves......the left behind spouse will say s/he lost their best friend. What? Best friend! S/he needs to go back and review what a MR is suppose to be. Acting like a best friend, instead of a lover, is what got them into the mess in the first place. Calling your spouse your best friend is a demotion, IMHO. There is only one person who can qualify as your spouse.....and you're going to demote him/her to a friend's position? Anyway.....I'm getting away from my subject.

The most important thing needed is her willingness to do the necessary work. If she cooperates, then these other things will come........if her heart is right. As long as her heart is resentful and selfish......then those feelings won't come b/c you just can't have a loving, happy MR with resentment, selfishness, and disrespect in the heart.

And how will I know if she gains this willingness? She will say so?

It would be wonderful if she spoke up and said she was willing to do whatever work was necessary to save the MR. If you were to tell her how she had to stop bossing you around, expecting you to cater to her, stop interrogating you, drop the self entitlement, start showing you respect as her H and as a man.........she might she'll try or she's willing....IDK. Somehow, I don't think she's going to make it that easy. Even if she agrees to do whatever you may list as stipulations to reconciling......for her to actually "do it", is another matter. Lip service isn't worth a pinch of salt if there is no action to follow.

I kind of regret saying that willingness was more important than remorse and commitment, b/c I think it confused you. Maybe it confused someone reading it, I hope not. Anyway, let me try to explain better. When I was a WW and had joined the board looking for someone to help me decide what to do, I finally made the decision to "do the right thing" and end my affair and stay in my M. I was not remorseful. In all the things different ones said to me, trying to get me to end the A and give my M another chance, there was one question I was asked that stood above all the others. "Sandi, for now, can you just make the choice to do the right thing"? In other words, they weren't telling me what they thought the right thing was. They weren't telling me how I should feel about anything. They said to do what I believed was the "right" thing to do. Well, that had hit me hard, b/c basically, that is who I am. I am a "Thou shalt, and Thou shalt not" type of person. (I realize how that sounds, considering I was in an A at the time). I knew I had to get back to that person again. But at that moment, I was so emotionally low and so tired that it was so difficult to find enough willingness in me to just get to the first level of willingness. That's pretty low! I strictly made my decision based on it being the morally & spiritually right thing to do. And let me tell you, I felt as if I had just sacrificed my life. I had no hope, no positive feelings, and certainly no excitement! I was so depressed in the following days that my adult D called a friend who was a RN, and was told to take me to the doctor immediately.

The first thing I did was end the A. The feelings of remorse did not come for almost two years. It's a long story and I won't take the time to explain why it took that long. I'll just say that my H should have required much, much more from me than I gave those first two years. However, he sat back and let me do pretty much whatever I wanted.......as long as he knew I wasn't contacting the other man. I was transparent (not that he asked, b/c he wasn't the one here getting the tools), and I learned that much from the board. delve ally worked on showing outward respect to him. Eventually, I began to feel the respect I was showing. I worked on my heart.......which is why it probably took nearly two years. Just b/c I had made the decision to stay in the M did not mean all my waywardness went out the window! No sir! Plus, with waywardness, there is a lot of stubborn pride. Some people call it false pride. It's bad. It's what keeps a person from apologizing to the one they've hurt. And if you already blamed your H for you having an affair in the first place.......you aren't going to be very quick to offer a sincere apology. So, anyway, I was coming home from work every day and hitting the DB board. I would stay here until I couldn't keep my eyes open and then hit the bed. Get up and do it all over the next day. It was hard, b/c there's not a lot of advice on the board for waywards. Oh yeah, a lot of H's want to tell a WW the same stuff he wishes his W would do.....but they didn't have a clue as to the mindset of a wayward. So, we learned together. Since my H wouldn't talk, I learned more how he probably felt by listening to the LBH's on the board. That had a lot to do with softening my heart. I also had some terrific mentors, and at that time, we could contact each other privately. So it helped a lot.

Sorry.....I didn't mean to get off into all of that ^^^^^^^^!

Anyway, I never want to imply that remorse is not important. If it doesn't happen, I am not sure if the WW ever has much compassion for her hurt H. I mean, I just don't know. What's to prevent her ongoing justifications and blaming him for her actions, rather than taking full responsibility? You see, I think there is a difference in regretting something you did......from being deeply sorry for doing it. When you are so sorry that you hurt your spouse in such a shameful & disgraceful manner that your heart feels as if it's breaking......that describes remorse, IMHO. There is no sense of self-entitlement, whatsoever. There is no haughty attitude. There is no anger, resentment, or bitterness. There is no pointing a finger at him and accusing or blaming. There is no scorekeeping. There is no thoughts of how she felt then or feels now. There is only concern for the betrayed and terribly hurt spouse. The cold, hard heart has finally softened. The remorseful WW doesn't have arrogant expectations! She doesn't lay down the rules for what she needs from her H! At least, not at that point in time. If truly remorseful, she only prays that someday he can forgive her. Hopefully, these feelings will lead to full repentance (which means turning away from what you were doing). IMHO, it's that remorse and repentance that really humbles the heart and makes it possible for the WW to start replacing those negative emotions for positive thoughts and feelings for her H and their MR. It is like growth. It doesn't happen all at one time. You see, a lot of LBH's don't realize that the WW has a tremdous amount of heart surgery that must be done, and then she has to go through the rehabilitation....so to speak. She has to get her heart & attitude right, and then follow through with the right actions.

Since only God can see the heart of man, we only have the outward signs to observe. So, here is what you look for if she is genuine about wanting to save the MR. Her attitude, words and actions are paralleled. They match. She isn't showing a bad attitude. She isn't saying one thing but acting quite another way. They all match.

Sorry for writing a book. No telling what all has been posted while I was rattling.

[44tries]

So how have you made since the last time you posted? NC, I hope.

Yes, we are now NC. It was hard for me, and I still have anxiety about it because she was trying so hard to be nice and I shut her down (I know, I know, detachment and NGS issues right there). She told me she understands and will respect my wish, but she also said she would have her work pick her up from the airport instead of me. This is her doing her usual "I'm hurt and going to recoil" reflex, and just proves why the NC is necessary (she has no grounds to be hurt in this scenario!).

As I said yesterday, I think we all are on the same page. I may adding too much, trying to prepare you. I don't want you getting confused again, okay? However, if you don't understand how or when something is to take place, just ask. If I know, I'll speak up.

I really wasn't confused by you, I was more confused by AnotherStander. His post felt very harsh after reading yours and as I've described in my past few posts, I struggle with believing my W is so full of lies and zero remorse. I fully understand she is still self-focused and her heart is still WW. Anyway, the tone of his post made me think he meant go dark for longer than just while she is away. Like I shouldn't be talking to her at all even when she returns. Maybe I just misunderstood.

Don't take responsibility or blame for her decision to cheat. Don't make statements to her like the one quoted above. I understand what you mean, but she won't be mentally/emotionally in a place to hear it, without taking full advantage of you. Many LBH's say something along those lines, thinking they are meeting the WW half way. No, he can't says things that sound as if he is taking responsibility for any of her bad behavior. Those were her free choices to make. Waywardness is not forced on another person. It begins with a negative mental attitude toward the spouse. It's like a lazer beam that is directed solely at him. She blames everything wrong in her life on him. The disrespectful actions begin to reflect what is in the heart, and finally rebellion acts out. Currently, she will want you to take blame for everything that went wrong in the MR.....including her A. It will be a big mistake if you agree. If there was ever a time you stand up for yourself, it is now. Do not give in or back down, thinking it will work out. It's only enabling her wayward mindset.

I understand. I will in no way, shape, or form accept any responsibility for the cheating. So far, she has not tried to place blame on me for that and seemed pretty clear about the fact that there was no excuse for it despite the issues with our MR. But I will be prepared.

It would be wonderful if she spoke up and said she was willing to do whatever work was necessary to save the MR. If you were to tell her how she had to stop bossing you around, expecting you to cater to her, stop interrogating you, drop the self entitlement, start showing you respect as her H and as a man.........she might she'll try or she's willing....IDK. Somehow, I don't think she's going to make it that easy. Even if she agrees to do whatever you may list as stipulations to reconciling......for her to actually "do it", is another matter. Lip service isn't worth a pinch of salt if there is no action to follow.

I agree, I'm wary of her making it that easy because she is stubborn (you mention the stubborn pride...that is so her, even before all of this). I don't even know where she stands on the "wanting the MR" issue. She certainly seems to want some kind of relationship with me, but as usual, she isn't very explicit. I am no longer putting up with any of that wishy-washiness. I don't really know how to approach our conversation when she returns...I want to be in control, but I'm supposed to be waiting for her to explicitly ask for my forgiveness and ask if I will take her back right? Before I can give any stipulations?

I kind of regret saying that willingness was more important than remorse and commitment, b/c I think it confused you. Maybe it confused someone reading it, I hope not. Anyway, let me try to explain better. When I was a WW and had joined the board looking for someone to help me decide what to do, I finally made the decision to "do the right thing" and end my affair and stay in my M. I was not remorseful. In all the things different ones said to me, trying to get me to end the A and give my M another chance, there was one question I was asked that stood above all the others. "Sandi, for now, can you just make the choice to do the right thing"? In other words, they weren't telling me what they thought the right thing was. They weren't telling me how I should feel about anything. They said to do what I believed was the "right" thing to do. Well, that had hit me hard, b/c basically, that is who I am. I am a "Thou shalt, and Thou shalt not" type of person. (I realize how that sounds, considering I was in an A at the time). I knew I had to get back to that person again. But at that moment, I was so emotionally low and so tired that it was so difficult to find enough willingness in me to just get to the first level of willingness. That's pretty low! I strictly made my decision based on it being the morally & spiritually right thing to do. And let me tell you, I felt as if I had just sacrificed my life. I had no hope, no positive feelings, and certainly no excitement! I was so depressed in the following days that my adult D called a friend who was a RN, and was told to take me to the doctor immediately.

I think I understood what you meant. You were essentially saying that even if all her feelings aren't in the right place yet, the important thing is that she is willing to do the right thing and whatever it takes to try to get there, right? I have read a few of your posts where you describe what it was like trying to work your way back and how long it took. I think it is so admirable, but I admit I always get a little discouraged because I have to think you are a pretty rare person that was willing to make a choice, albeit right, that made you feel so miserable and for so long. Knowing my W's heart is WW makes me pretty unsure about her ability to do that, but I guess if you were able to do it, so can others.

The first thing I did was end the A. The feelings of remorse did not come for almost two years. It's a long story and I won't take the time to explain why it took that long. I'll just say that my H should have required much, much more from me than I gave those first two years. However, he sat back and let me do pretty much whatever I wanted.......as long as he knew I wasn't contacting the other man. I was transparent (not that he asked, b/c he wasn't the one here getting the tools), and I learned that much from the board. delve ally worked on showing outward respect to him. Eventually, I began to feel the respect I was showing. I worked on my heart.......which is why it probably took nearly two years. Just b/c I had made the decision to stay in the M did not mean all my waywardness went out the window! No sir! Plus, with waywardness, there is a lot of stubborn pride. Some people call it false pride. It's bad. It's what keeps a person from apologizing to the one they've hurt. And if you already blamed your H for you having an affair in the first place.......you aren't going to be very quick to offer a sincere apology. So, anyway, I was coming home from work every day and hitting the DB board. I would stay here until I couldn't keep my eyes open and then hit the bed. Get up and do it all over the next day. It was hard, b/c there's not a lot of advice on the board for waywards. Oh yeah, a lot of H's want to tell a WW the same stuff he wishes his W would do.....but they didn't have a clue as to the mindset of a wayward. So, we learned together. Since my H wouldn't talk, I learned more how he probably felt by listening to the LBH's on the board. That had a lot to do with softening my heart. I also had some terrific mentors, and at that time, we could contact each other privately. So it helped a lot.

Do you think if your H had demanded more from you, it would have helped your process?

My W seemingly offered a sincere apology, more than once...but I know it could have easily been more of an apology for herself that she got caught.

Anyway, I never want to imply that remorse is not important. If it doesn't happen, I am not sure if the WW ever has much compassion for her hurt H. I mean, I just don't know. What's to prevent her ongoing justifications and blaming him for her actions, rather than taking full responsibility? You see, I think there is a difference in regretting something you did......from being deeply sorry for doing it. When you are so sorry that you hurt your spouse in such a shameful & disgraceful manner that your heart feels as if it's breaking......that describes remorse, IMHO. There is no sense of self-entitlement, whatsoever. There is no haughty attitude. There is no anger, resentment, or bitterness. There is no pointing a finger at him and accusing or blaming. There is no scorekeeping. There is no thoughts of how she felt then or feels now. There is only concern for the betrayed and terribly hurt spouse. The cold, hard heart has finally softened. The remorseful WW doesn't have arrogant expectations! She doesn't lay down the rules for what she needs from her H! At least, not at that point in time. If truly remorseful, she only prays that someday he can forgive her. Hopefully, these feelings will lead to full repentance (which means turning away from what you were doing). IMHO, it's that remorse and repentance that really humbles the heart and makes it possible for the WW to start replacing those negative emotions for positive thoughts and feelings for her H and their MR. It is like growth. It doesn't happen all at one time. You see, a lot of LBH's don't realize that the WW has a tremdous amount of heart surgery that must be done, and then she has to go through the rehabilitation....so to speak. She has to get her heart & attitude right, and then follow through with the right actions.

I completely agree with your description of true remorse. What are the next steps for me if she doesn't seem to be there yet? Start with the willingness part? I'm just a little unclear if we can move forward at all if she isn't yet at this place. It seems almost impossible she truly could be this soon. I think she still has mixes of all of it. You said it took a long time before you had that breakdown apology to your H, but you were already piecing before that, right?

Since only God can see the heart of man, we only have the outward signs to observe. So, here is what you look for if she is genuine about wanting to save the MR. Her attitude, words and actions are paralleled. They match. She isn't showing a bad attitude. She isn't saying one thing but acting quite another way. They all match.

This makes total sense. As I said above, though, it seems like this can't all be congruent immediately...she still has her bad habits and everything will continue to be up and down. I guess I'm still unclear what exactly my expectation and plan of action should be moving into this next stage. What is acceptable and what I need to draw a hard line on and say I'm not interested.

Sorry for writing a book. No telling what all has been posted while I was rattling.

Never apologize! I love your books

[sandi2]

I don't really know how to approach our conversation when she returns...I want to be in control, but I'm supposed to be waiting for her to explicitly ask for my forgiveness and ask if I will take her back right? Before I can give any stipulations?

No, but we will get to all of that. I will try to get it written down in a better organization, than my usual rambling. I also want to touch on boundaries, so don't let me forget about it.

It's so funny (to me) what you said about Another Stander sounding so harsh compared to my posts. He'll probably agree that ithat s quite a switcheroo. I always thought he was too nice with his own WW, and too soft/nice in his posts to newbies...... but that was pre-divorce. However, post-divorce, he has toughened up, in my book. ( LOL) But he really is a very caring, very patient, good guy. (I almost said, nice guy). I just get tickled, b/c I think this is twice someone switched our roles and made him the ole tough-guy, instead of me. (I love it).

I think I understood what you meant. You were essentially saying that even if all her feelings aren't in the right place yet, the important thing is that she is willing to do the right thing and whatever it takes to try to get there, right?

Yes, exactly! I would not tell posters how long it took me to get to that point I was ready to put forth the energy and effort into my M again.......b/c I didn't want them to be too discouraged. But finally, I saw so many newbies in despair b/c they were not seeing I'm ediately turn around in their WW.

The wayward mindset does not just evaporate, like washing away dirt or something. If she doesn't have an authentic experience of remorse, then her heart will not likely have the same softness or humility and compassion that remorse helps to usher in. With or without remorse, it takes consistent work and time. You see, having remorse is needed, but it doesn't cure everything that's wrong with her.

Let me warn you. Your work and her work are not going to look the same to one another. In other words, she may not think you are doing any work at all, and feel it's all on her to do the heavy lifting. You may wonder if there's any progress in her heart, if you can't see outward evidence. So beware of more resentment if that happens. It will be discouraging when she displays one of her old, unattractive habits. When she does (and know, it will happen sooner or later) your job is to call her out on it right then, and don't let it ride. I think I've said this previously, but it is important enough to say twice. It is going to be the hardest thing either of you have ever done.

here is where I hope I can be more encouraging than my own personal story sounded. I was a lot older than yand W, and I had physical problems that robbed me of energy and gave me much pain every day. Due the physical issues, I also suffered with depression, so after I ended my affair, the withdrawals could have been worse than some others experience, but IDK. I probably suffered longer in a depressed state b/c of the various doctors I was seeing and how they were yanking me around with this AD, then taking me off cold turkey and then another doctor putting my back on a new AD......it's a wonder I was able to pull out of it all all. So, I feel all of that affected my "recovery" time. I refuse to blame it all on those factors, b/c i refuse to make it easy by giving myself any excuses.

If I had been a young and healthy as your W, I can't help but believe I would have had more physical energy, which causes more a more natural desire to become involved and interested. A few years later, I went to see a hormone balancing specialist and was told he didn't know how I crawled out of bed every morning. He said, "Sandi, you are a trainwreck". He said my sex hormones were registering zero. I had never heard of such! But he wasn't laughing when he said it. Well, guess what? They make stuff to fix that little problem! I just wished it could have fixed some of the other problems as well. Oh, and the depression did improve.....although I still have to take AD's and pain medication.

I have always believed if my doctors had not been yanking me off and on those meds, that it would not have taken me so long to start responding. So, I hope you'll find encouragement in knowing you W is strong and healthy. That goes a long way when having to deal with mental/emotional issues in the MR.

I don't know how many hours ahead of the USA you may be, but I want to try and cover what we can, and have you ask about any concerns you still have. I want you to feel confident that you have got this. And don't worry about getting in control or saying certain things before she has a chance to get the drop on you, b/c you'll get to have your say. I don't want you wound so right you are jumping out of your skin by the time you lay eyes on each other.

There is a link on Cadet's page (his first post to your first thread) that talk about boundaries. How to state them, examples, etc. I plan to get into them more tomorrow. I will also try to have a more organize flow of thoughts, rather than my usual rambling. Until then, I hope you'll read that link on boundaries. You might want want to google boundaries for couples. I hope to explain the difference in having boundaries and giving ultimatums. We can work on just a few boundaries you'll want to establish.

People coming back from this place you find yourself, often have the misconception they are both working to make one another happier, or be more romantic, or go on more trips, or some such stuff..........but they fail to do the inner work on themselves.......which will probably be different from each other. However, each of you must have a change in your own mindsets. You will need to refresh your mind almost daily on no more mr. nice guy. And, you need to set goals that will keep you on track, and not slip back into your beta behavior. There are forums and articles and books, etc. that help men learn how to be no more mr. nice guy and how to be the alpha, dominant male in their MR, and not fall into the trap of trying to appease the W to keep her off his case so that his life would be more tolerable.

I am tired and need to call it a night. I am going to the beauty parlor tomorrow and telling them to give me the works! (lol). But I'll save time to post to you, okay?

Oh, and about your gut feeling. Try not to worry about things like that. You say your gut says she is being honest. Okay, but you still aren't going to talk to her till she get back to the house. So, stay calm. If she is authentic, it will proves out soon enough. I just think you need to be prepared for different scenarios. We can get into it more tomorrow.

[44tries]

No, but we will get to all of that. I will try to get it written down in a better organization, than my usual rambling. I also want to touch on boundaries, so don't let me forget about it.

Great! Can't wait to hear more and definitely won't let you forget about boundaries. I have read the boundaries threads a couple times now and will continue to do so.

It's so funny (to me) what you said about Another Stander sounding so harsh compared to my posts. He'll probably agree that ithat s quite a switcheroo. I always thought he was too nice with his own WW, and too soft/nice in his posts to newbies...... but that was pre-divorce. However, post-divorce, he has toughened up, in my book. ( LOL) But he really is a very caring, very patient, good guy. (I almost said, nice guy). I just get tickled, b/c I think this is twice someone switched our roles and made him the ole tough-guy, instead of me. (I love it).

Haha, I can see the humor. I always really value reading what AS has to say, which was why I was sort of shaken by his seemingly harsh post. I do believe he is very caring and it was all well-intended. I think it was the part where he told me to shun any attempt at recon, while you were writing so much about that point. Again, maybe he just meant if she attempted recon before she got home, IDK.

Yes, exactly! I would not tell posters how long it took me to get to that point I was ready to put forth the energy and effort into my M again.......b/c I didn't want them to be too discouraged. But finally, I saw so many newbies in despair b/c they were not seeing I'm ediately turn around in their WW.

The wayward mindset does not just evaporate, like washing away dirt or something. If she doesn't have an authentic experience of remorse, then her heart will not likely have the same softness or humility and compassion that remorse helps to usher in. With or without remorse, it takes consistent work and time. You see, having remorse is needed, but it doesn't cure everything that's wrong with her.

I have grasped this. I have done my best to dispel any illusion of the "falling back into each other's arms" movie scene. Work and time, work and time...

Let me warn you. Your work and her work are not going to look the same to one another. In other words, she may not think you are doing any work at all, and feel it's all on her to do the heavy lifting. You may wonder if there's any progress in her heart, if you can't see outward evidence. So beware of more resentment if that happens. It will be discouraging when she displays one of her old, unattractive habits. When she does (and know, it will happen sooner or later) your job is to call her out on it right then, and don't let it ride. I think I've said this previously, but it is important enough to say twice. It is going to be the hardest thing either of you have ever done.

I agree. I am ready. But, I am the one who has been putting in so much work and time already to get to that place. So, I think the biggest question will be whether she is anywhere near ready to handle doing the hardest thing she has ever done.

here is where I hope I can be more encouraging than my own personal story sounded. I was a lot older than yand W, and I had physical problems that robbed me of energy and gave me much pain every day. Due the physical issues, I also suffered with depression, so after I ended my affair, the withdrawals could have been worse than some others experience, but IDK. I probably suffered longer in a depressed state b/c of the various doctors I was seeing and how they were yanking me around with this AD, then taking me off cold turkey and then another doctor putting my back on a new AD......it's a wonder I was able to pull out of it all all. So, I feel all of that affected my "recovery" time. I refuse to blame it all on those factors, b/c i refuse to make it easy by giving myself any excuses.

If I had been a young and healthy as your W, I can't help but believe I would have had more physical energy, which causes more a more natural desire to become involved and interested. A few years later, I went to see a hormone balancing specialist and was told he didn't know how I crawled out of bed every morning. He said, "Sandi, you are a trainwreck". He said my sex hormones were registering zero. I had never heard of such! But he wasn't laughing when he said it. Well, guess what? They make stuff to fix that little problem! I just wished it could have fixed some of the other problems as well. Oh, and the depression did improve.....although I still have to take AD's and pain medication.

I have always believed if my doctors had not been yanking me off and on those meds, that it would not have taken me so long to start responding. So, I hope you'll find encouragement in knowing you W is strong and healthy. That goes a long way when having to deal with mental/emotional issues in the MR.

This does help. It is my hope that youth and resilience will be a big advantage. Along with perhaps the fact that there have been far less years of resentment and hopelessness. Perhaps that is just wishful thinking, but I talked to my mom about her own failed MR with my dad (she was WW) and a lot of what she said was that their MR had died so long ago and there were so many years of emptiness, that was the main reason it was beyond repair, at least in her mind.

I don't know how many hours ahead of the USA you may be, but I want to try and cover what we can, and have you ask about any concerns you still have. I want you to feel confident that you have got this. And don't worry about getting in control or saying certain things before she has a chance to get the drop on you, b/c you'll get to have your say. I don't want you wound so right you are jumping out of your skin by the time you lay eyes on each other.

It depends on your location in the US as well, but I am between a quarter to half a day ahead. I do stay up pretty late, so hopefully there won't be too much of a gap. I agree, I would like to feel confident . I am actively trying to avoid exactly what you described about being wound so tight. Thank goodness patience is a strength, not a weakness for me.

There is a link on Cadet's page (his first post to your first thread) that talk about boundaries. How to state them, examples, etc. I plan to get into them more tomorrow. I will also try to have a more organize flow of thoughts, rather than my usual rambling. Until then, I hope you'll read that link on boundaries. You might want want to google boundaries for couples. I hope to explain the difference in having boundaries and giving ultimatums. We can work on just a few boundaries you'll want to establish.

Done, and will continue to do so. I'm hoping I can keep a few, big important boundaries and not have a bunch of little ones to try and keep track of. I liked how Mowgli said his boundary ultimately came down to respect. Everything else followed. Looking forward to fleshing this out.

People coming back from this place you find yourself, often have the misconception they are both working to make one another happier, or be more romantic, or go on more trips, or some such stuff..........but they fail to do the inner work on themselves.......which will probably be different from each other. However, each of you must have a change in your own mindsets. You will need to refresh your mind almost daily on no more mr. nice guy. And, you need to set goals that will keep you on track, and not slip back into your beta behavior. There are forums and articles and books, etc. that help men learn how to be no more mr. nice guy and how to be the alpha, dominant male in their MR, and not fall into the trap of trying to appease the W to keep her off his case so that his life would be more tolerable.

Definitely, it will be a daily dedication. I will try and find more outside resources like you describe to help me. I have learned so much, don't plan on stopping anytime soon

I am tired and need to call it a night. I am going to the beauty parlor tomorrow and telling them to give me the works! (lol). But I'll save time to post to you, okay?

Thank you so much, Sandi. It means a lot to me that you set aside time in your day to post to me. I never take it for granted. I hope you thoroughly enjoy your pampering

Oh, and about your gut feeling. Try not to worry about things like that. You say your gut says she is being honest. Okay, but you still aren't going to talk to her till she get back to the house. So, stay calm. If she is authentic, it will proves out soon enough. I just think you need to be prepared for different scenarios. We can get into it more tomorrow.

Staying calm. I have told myself exactly what you said, if she is authentic my demand for NC should not cause her to run away and crawl into a hole and never come out. My NGS causes me to be plagued with fear about this, but I knew if everyone here was telling me it needed to be done, it did. And I understand why.

She texted me today and said "My replacement will be here tomorrow. Should be home Friday or Saturday, will find out later today or tomorrow. Just updating you. Not trying to bother you. No need to respond."

I hope this means she is understanding and being respectful of my request. I did not respond anything even though I wanted to at least say thank you.

[sandi2]

I agree. I am ready. But, I am the one who has been putting in so much work and time already to get to that place. So, I think the biggest question will be whether she is anywhere near ready to handle doing the hardest thing she has ever done.

Yes, you have been working hard for a long time to get to that place. Remember, 44, she hasn't been working at all. Her direction was going the opposite way. So, like I previously said, your part and her part (work) won't look identical. Sometimes it causes frustration for the H, b/c he can't see the struggle in her heart/mind. I don't know how addicted she was to the 19 yr old boy, but I'd say it was more about the thrill of the secretive contacts, etc. She will have to resist temptation to not repeat that behavior, and she may have other guys that she labels "just friends" she is texting. All of that has to end, and she may be very resistant and accuse you of trying to control her. The "control" card will be her most go-to response.

I'm going to attempt to break down some type of steps to consider in approaching her. I had bookmarked tons of old posts I had written over the past couple of years, but they were on another computer and I think they've been lost. I just thought it would be faster to copy and paste. However, I do need to try my best to focus on the first things for you to address with her, and try to keep out so much extra "explaining" (me, not you......well, maybe you, too ).

First, prepare yourself by proper sleep, good diet, and excerises. Don't let your thoughts turn into fears by going off into the land of "what if". We can cover a few scenarios, to maybe help you feel more comfortable.

Second, once you have an idea of what to cover in the initial approach, practice in front of a mirror. Practice looking calm, confident, and in control of yourself (not trying to control her, just yourself). Practice various scenarios and how you will handle it.

Third, the day she arrives, wear something that makes you look and feel like an attractive male. I don't want you to be too obvious, like you are trying to impress her. This is for you.

Since she has been behaving more nicely the past couple of days, I feel like that may be the approach you see in her. That will be nice, but don't mistake niceness as meaning anything positive. The greatest scenario would be to see her humble and remorseful.......and maybe, who knows......you'll see it. I am just a bit reluctant to believe her feathers won't get ruffled and she'll resist some things you want from her. So, even if she comes home and is nice.......just be cautious.

I would not start in on her the minute she walks in the door. Give her time to unpack, rest, drink or eat something......maybe rest, whatever. I feel she'll say something about the situation first. Which is fine. As long as she is calm and stating her views, let her have her say. Just don't let it distract or confuse what you will do. okay? She may have decided she wants a physical separation. If that's the case, then I think you'll have to agree and begin making preparations to do it. I hope she won't suggest "in-house" separation, b/c they are disastrous for a LBH. But, I'll get to this in the scenarios.

I suggest you start with the ultimate objective, which questions, "Do we save our marriage, or do we get a divorce"?. Then tell her that, for you, there will be no in between methods.......like in-house separation. You both are all in, or all out. Before making the final decision as to whether or not you both work to save the M, you tell her what you will need in the relationship. Don't refer to it as stipulations or even requirements. These are the things you will need, to stay in the M.



I have to leave for a little while, and then I will return with more.

[44tries]

Yes, you have been working hard for a long time to get to that place. Remember, 44, she hasn't been working at all. Her direction was going the opposite way. So, like I previously said, your part and her part (work) won't look identical. Sometimes it causes frustration for the H, b/c he can't see the struggle in her heart/mind. I don't know how addicted she was to the 19 yr old boy, but I'd say it was more about the thrill of the secretive contacts, etc. She will have to resist temptation to not repeat that behavior, and she may have other guys that she labels "just friends" she is texting. All of that has to end, and she may be very resistant and accuse you of trying to control her. The "control" card will be her most go-to response.

I can be patient and not get frustrated. My struggle will be with being too nice. I agree about the control card--she hates being "restricted" as she calls it, she is stubborn and has always been that way. What is my response when she tries to play the control card?

First, prepare yourself by proper sleep, good diet, and excerises. Don't let your thoughts turn into fears by going off into the land of "what if". We can cover a few scenarios, to maybe help you feel more comfortable.

Second, once you have an idea of what to cover in the initial approach, practice in front of a mirror. Practice looking calm, confident, and in control of yourself (not trying to control her, just yourself). Practice various scenarios and how you will handle it.

Third, the day she arrives, wear something that makes you look and feel like an attractive male. I don't want you to be too obvious, like you are trying to impress her. This is for you.

Got it. I can do all of these things. I'm tempted to probably do too much "other" stuff, like make the house spotless, bathe the dogs, wash the cars (she has been mentioning this for awhile)...etc. Obviously, I will not have the house messy but how much is too much? I feel like I shouldn't wash her car...but I'm not going to just wash mine..so maybe not at all?

Since she has been behaving more nicely the past couple of days, I feel like that may be the approach you see in her. That will be nice, but don't mistake niceness as meaning anything positive. The greatest scenario would be to see her humble and remorseful.......and maybe, who knows......you'll see it. I am just a bit reluctant to believe her feathers won't get ruffled and she'll resist some things you want from her. So, even if she comes home and is nice.......just be cautious.

Noted, I think the same as you. I think she is genuinely trying to be nice--she was putting on her "first-date" level effort--but I can easily see how as soon as something rubs her the wrong way, she will lapse. Again, since this is somewhat expected, what is my response?

I would not start in on her the minute she walks in the door. Give her time to unpack, rest, drink or eat something......maybe rest, whatever. I feel she'll say something about the situation first. Which is fine. As long as she is calm and stating her views, let her have her say. Just don't let it distract or confuse what you will do. okay? She may have decided she wants a physical separation. If that's the case, then I think you'll have to agree and begin making preparations to do it. I hope she won't suggest "in-house" separation, b/c they are disastrous for a LBH. But, I'll get to this in the scenarios.

Agreed, I will give her her hour I hope she will initiate first, but maybe she will be thinking that all my "think time" means I will have something prepared, IDK. Regardless, I won't let her distract me. Once I have my game plan and have practiced, this will be fine. I would love to hear more about possible scenarios. Based on her eagerness to plan trips, etc. I'm hoping she isn't already thinking along the lines of physical separation...however, this could change when she realizes I am going to force a "one or the other" on fixing the MR or D. Or maybe NC will change her whole attitude and she will be closed, who knows.

I suggest you start with the ultimate objective, which questions, "Do we save our marriage, or do we get a divorce"?. Then tell her that, for you, there will be no in between methods.......like in-house separation. You both are all in, or all out. Before making the final decision as to whether or not you both work to save the M, you tell her what you will need in the relationship. Don't refer to it as stipulations or even requirements. These are the things you will need, to stay in the M.

This helps a lot. I can start to see the backbone of what I am aiming for. It does make me nervous about ultimatums, I thought those were supposed to be avoided? But I agree, I'm not really interested in in-between methods (or I shouldn't be, anyway...). I hope you will help me with my "what I need" list, I want it to be well edited.

Looking forward to hearing more...thank you so much again

[LoneWlf]

44 here is your chance to get you BALL$ back. I know it easy for me to say but I also know we are all pulling for you. You have some incredible people in your corner now its up to you . As I tell my S- You either GIVE UP or MAN UP? Time to MAN UP! Good luck!!

[Ste7e]

Just want to chime in and say that Sandi's advice on this thread is really helping me too. I wish you luck 44 you got this!

[44tries]

44 here is your chance to get you BALL$ back. I know it easy for me to say but I also know we are all pulling for you. You have some incredible people in your corner now its up to you . As I tell my S- You either GIVE UP or MAN UP? Time to MAN UP! Good luck!!

Thanks, LoneWlf! I'm definitely not giving up...so man up it is! I got this.

[44tries]

Thanks, Ste7e!!

[sandi2]

If you give in too quickly, you'll likely experience a period of her showing better behavior, followed by a quick return of the old disrespect and self-entitlement attitude. So, you must be firm. If your WW says she is truly sorry and wants to work on the MR, let her know that you need to see some things change, to feel confident about her decision. If she starts telling you what you need to do for her.......just let her have her say. Depending if her attitude is okay. If she says she doesn't know what she wants, then tell her you know what you don't want, and proceed to tell her the following. At whatever point, the following boundaries need to be stated......if you mean it. If you won't stick to your resolve......then what's the point, right? She cannot think she can return to the same old behaviors and keep the M.

* "In order for the MR to go forward, there are some behavior patterns that must change".

* "I will not stay in a MR where I am disrespected in any fashion".
"I will no longer tolerate your self-entitled attitude. I will not be treated as if I owe my services to you, expected to wait on you hand & foot, or give accountability. I will not tolerate you treating me as if you are my mother, my commanding officer, or my employer. Are we clear, so far? If you aren't willing to change this behavior, then we need to end the M, right now".

Side Note: If she is not willing to do this much, then there is no point in trying to discuss anything else. There is no point in discussing the affair, or bringing this & that up, b/c it all boils down to one word........disrespect. So, if she starts talking about how you made her feel, yada, yada.......just look firmly at her and say, "This is about what you are willing to do to save our M. If you can't treat me respectfully, then we need to get a divorce, because I will not continue tolerating it".

* "I will not stay in a MR with private and/or inappropriate friendships and/or affair". "You have betrayed my trust, and you brought OM into our M. We either go forward committed to being faithful, or we end the M now. If there is to be a M, then there will be no more private/secret texting. If you are not willing to be transparent in our M, then say so now".

Side Note: If she tries to turn this around and bring up how you've been so secretive lately, just hold up your hand in the stop position, and say, "That was after learning of your affair. You've talked a lot about your feelings, and I had hoped for once you would consider my feelings. I did nothing that was inappropriate or disloyal. I have never had an inappropriate relationship with another woman. I have remained faithful and loyal to you, although you made it clear that you did not want to have sex with me". If she accuses you of wanting to punish her, just say "No".

The statements in bold are boundaries. However, don't mention them being boundaries to her. You are simply stating what you will not tolerate in your life. That is what boundaries do. They protect us. That is why countries have boundaries; our property has boundaries; and we have personal boundaries for how others treat us. We don't allow people to just treat us any old way. Right? We either push back, or we remove ourselves from the situation.......but we don't simply ignore it or comply.

For now, these two boundaries are the most important. I am going to send this on to you, b/c I don't want to accidentally lose it. If you have questions, please ask.

[sandi2]

Well, I lost my post.

[sandi2]

I agree about the control card--she hates being "restricted" as she calls it, she is stubborn and has always been that way. What is my response when she tries to play the control card?

WW: "I won't let you control me"!
You: "I am telling you what I will no longer tolerate, if we are going to stay M. You are free to decide if you will cooperate or not. If you have no intentions to show respect, that's your choice, but I have choices also. I will choose to get a divorce, rather than tolerate further disrespect".
WW: "Well, this is the way I am, so if you don't like it, then you are welcome to leave".
You: "Then I have my answer, and I see no point of continuing this discussion any longer".
WW: "Oh, that's typical. If you don't like something.......just walk away. Go into your bedroom and shut the door.
You: "I wanted an answer and you gave me one, so that's fine".
WW: "What about what I want, huh? What about my feelings? You didn't even care that I was stuck over there by myself. You waited till I was alone, and then you chose to lash out and punish me. You don't know what that did to me! You didn't even care enough to to just respond to my text".
You: "Look, we both are at a crossroads. I needed time to get my head clear. Before getting into saying things we might both regret latter, the first decision to make is whether or not we save our MR or get a divorce. I am telling you what I cannot tolerate any longer. You have the same right to say whatever you want. However, if you know at this moment you will refuse to change your behavior toward me........then I think it is pointless to continue".

So, she will either give you a straight answer, or she try to wiggle out and find an alternative solution.

WW: "I couldn't wait to get back home and be with you. I wanted us to make love and tell you how sorry I was for everything. I dreamed of us taking a little trip......like a second honeymoon, to start over. Then I get here and find you cold and hateful, yelling ultimatums at me, before I can even tell you how I feel. But.....I guess my feelings aren't important to you. Maybe you are right. Maybe we should just get a divorce".

See how that was worked by your fake W (me) in her last response? ^^^^^^^. It is to make you regret what you've just told her and how you handled yourself. She is giving you a picture of something beautiful and than you got into a hurry and messed up everything. It's designed to put you into pursuit mode. Don't do it. Remain calm, whatever happens.

I'm tempted to probably do too much "other" stuff, like make the house spotless, bathe the dogs, wash the cars (she has been mentioning this for awhile)...etc. Obviously, I will not have the house messy but how much is too much? I feel like I shouldn't wash her car...but I'm not going to just wash mine..so maybe not at all?

Good grief, man! You aren't getting ready for your first date, your WW is coming home.

Some people may see this and think you have many lovely attributes, but I don't. I see a H with a lot of NGS.

Noted, I think the same as you. I think she is genuinely trying to be nice--she was putting on her "first-date" level effort--but I can easily see how as soon as something rubs her the wrong way, she will lapse. Again, since this is somewhat expected, what is my response?

Follow through with basically what I sent in the previous post. If you think I was too shaped tongued in places, you can bring it to my attention, or give a better example. I realize it sounds a lot more like ultimatums than boundaries. I just think you need to be that firm and not play pattiecake with her.

The very best scenario would be if she came home and humbly apologized and ask for your forgiveness, and tell you she wanted to work together in having a good M. If (and that is a big IF) this should be the case, then you can ease into the same conversation, but maybe say it more tenderly. Make sense? I don't think it will take long before you'll know how sincere she is.

Once I have my game plan and have practiced, this will be fine. I would love to hear more about possible scenarios. Based on her eagerness to plan trips, etc. I'm hoping she isn't already thinking along the lines of physical separation...however, this could change when she realizes I am going to force a "one or the other" on fixing the MR or D. Or maybe NC will change her whole attitude and she will be closed, who knows.

Since she's in the military, what kind of trip could she plan?

I will role play with you (me being the WW or the H, it doesn't matter). Tell me what role you want. I had written out some scenarios in the post I lost, which is probably for the best.....since I they may have sound a bit sharp.

This helps a lot. I can start to see the backbone of what I am aiming for. It does make me nervous about ultimatums, I thought those were supposed to be avoided? But I agree, I'm not really interested in in-between methods (or I shouldn't be, anyway...). I hope you will help me with my "what I need" list, I want it to be well edited.

MWD says in her DR book that if you give an ultimatum, be prepared to back it up. I say the same goes for boundaries. (You can't always just walk away and think the person will respect you for it). The differences in the two is the ultimatums don't give much of a choice. The recepient hears, "Do it my way, or else". Some people don't believe boundaries should have consequences. Well, I do. What good are they if they are dishonored and there are no consequences?

Here is how I see it. You tell her what you will not tolerate. Now, she can do whatever she chooses. Of she chooses not to honor your boundary, then some action should take place as a response. Since it was your boundary, you are the one to choose the action. You said you would not tolerate disrespect any longer. So, the ball in your court. What will you do? If you've already announced what you'd do.......then you best do it. If you didn't say what you'd do......you still need to show action.

To me, ultimatums are saying do it my way or else. So, that may seem how my examples sounded to you, IDK. At this point......and how she pushed this to a head like a nasty pimple.....I think you should be firm in your delivery. If you want to call it an ultimatum or whatever.......it doesn't really matter. I think it will have about the same effect. All I ask is that you don't walk around in your house crowing about this & that being your boundaries. As long as you know what they are, that's the important part. If you use these two examples I sent previously, then you'll need to be ready to follow through if she won't agree to cooperate in showing you respect.

In many ways, this is another confrontation. Only this time, you are hitting hard, and there is just one answer you want to hear. Which is, "I am willing to cooperate and work to save our M". I will be surprised if it's that easy. I don't think she'll be that straight forward about it. Giving her a chance to saying something first, will give you a better idea of what she's thinking. Her waywardness is still there, I'm pretty sure.

This helps a lot. I can start to see the backbone of what I am aiming for. It does make me nervous about ultimatums, I thought those were supposed to be avoided? But I agree, I'm not really interested in in-between methods (or I shouldn't be, anyway...). I hope you will help me with my "what I need" list, I want it to be well edited.

I will be glad to help. I don't think it's necessary to present it at the same time you tell her the first two boundaries. Once that conversation dies down, and if it seems to go well and she's showing positive signs of cooperating, then you might suggest that each of you make separate lists of what you need in the M, which the other spouse can provide.

[44tries]

If you give in too quickly, you'll likely experience a period of her showing better behavior, followed by a quick return of the old disrespect and self-entitlement attitude. So, you must be firm. If your WW says she is truly sorry and wants to work on the MR, let her know that you need to see some things change, to feel confident about her decision. If she starts telling you what you need to do for her.......just let her have her say. Depending if her attitude is okay. If she says she doesn't know what she wants, then tell her you know what you don't want, and proceed to tell her the following. At whatever point, the following boundaries need to be stated......if you mean it. If you won't stick to your resolve......then what's the point, right? She cannot think she can return to the same old behaviors and keep the M.

So, what exactly do you mean by give in too quickly? This is something I am confused on, because I have read Zeus' post about not taking them back too easily like ten times. I don't want to do it, despite the temptation to finally feel some relief and closeness. But if we have the conversation, and she agrees to commit, is that "giving in"? I mean I'm essentially telling her I will take her back, under "all in" conditions. I understand she will still have bad habits and I cannot soften on letting her get away with any of them. I just want to make sure I'm clear on what not "giving in too quickly" means.

* "In order for the MR to go forward, there are some behavior patterns that must change".

* "I will not stay in a MR where I am disrespected in any fashion".
"I will no longer tolerate your self-entitled attitude. I will not be treated as if I owe my services to you, expected to wait on you hand & foot, or give accountability. I will not tolerate you treating me as if you are my mother, my commanding officer, or my employer. Are we clear, so far? If you aren't willing to change this behavior, then we need to end the M, right now".

Side Note: If she is not willing to do this much, then there is no point in trying to discuss anything else. There is no point in discussing the affair, or bringing this & that up, b/c it all boils down to one word........disrespect. So, if she starts talking about how you made her feel, yada, yada.......just look firmly at her and say, "This is about what you are willing to do to save our M. If you can't treat me respectfully, then we need to get a divorce, because I will not continue tolerating it".

* "I will not stay in a MR with private and/or inappropriate friendships and/or affair". "You have betrayed my trust, and you brought OM into our M. We either go forward committed to being faithful, or we end the M now. If there is to be a M, then there will be no more private/secret texting. If you are not willing to be transparent in our M, then say so now".

Side Note: If she tries to turn this around and bring up how you've been so secretive lately, just hold up your hand in the stop position, and say, "That was after learning of your affair. You've talked a lot about your feelings, and I had hoped for once you would consider my feelings. I did nothing that was inappropriate or disloyal. I have never had an inappropriate relationship with another woman. I have remained faithful and loyal to you, although you made it clear that you did not want to have sex with me". If she accuses you of wanting to punish her, just say "No".

The statements in bold are boundaries. However, don't mention them being boundaries to her. You are simply stating what you will not tolerate in your life. That is what boundaries do. They protect us. That is why countries have boundaries; our property has boundaries; and we have personal boundaries for how others treat us. We don't allow people to just treat us any old way. Right? We either push back, or we remove ourselves from the situation.......but we don't simply ignore it or comply.

For now, these two boundaries are the most important. I am going to send this on to you, b/c I don't want to accidentally lose it. If you have questions, please ask.

These are perfect. They are exactly what the main two requirements should be (I know, I won't tell her they are "requirements" ). And your notes about what to do with her comebacks are also so helpful. I have a feeling, if she doesn't want to lose me, she is going to agree to anything but it will be hard to know how much of it is her desperation in the moment. But if she agrees, no matter the motivation, I then have the foundation to reference and can be firm about the boundaries never getting crossed.

WW: "I won't let you control me"!
You: "I am telling you what I will no longer tolerate, if we are going to stay M. You are free to decide if you will cooperate or not. If you have no intentions to show respect, that's your choice, but I have choices also. I will choose to get a divorce, rather than tolerate further disrespect".
WW: "Well, this is the way I am, so if you don't like it, then you are welcome to leave".
You: "Then I have my answer, and I see no point of continuing this discussion any longer".
WW: "Oh, that's typical. If you don't like something.......just walk away. Go into your bedroom and shut the door.
You: "I wanted an answer and you gave me one, so that's fine".
WW: "What about what I want, huh? What about my feelings? You didn't even care that I was stuck over there by myself. You waited till I was alone, and then you chose to lash out and punish me. You don't know what that did to me! You didn't even care enough to to just respond to my text".
You: "Look, we both are at a crossroads. I needed time to get my head clear. Before getting into saying things we might both regret latter, the first decision to make is whether or not we save our MR or get a divorce. I am telling you what I cannot tolerate any longer. You have the same right to say whatever you want. However, if you know at this moment you will refuse to change your behavior toward me........then I think it is pointless to continue".

WOW, this is so, so accurate! It sounds exactly like my W! Such helpful responses. She will either surrender when I try to disarm her self-absorbed defense/control weapons, or she won't and I walk. This is a similar feeling I had during the confrontation conversation. When she started with the question game and testing how far she could push, how much I knew, if she could get away with it...in the moment she knew she had "lost" and stopped struggling, the feeling I had was something I haven't felt in so long. Like she was finally not trying to arm wrestle me. I was finally in the driver's seat. I think it will be a long time before she is comfortable with me driving and stops trying to fight back, if we get there at all. Now I will make it clear that if she can't let go of that stubbornness, she loses me.

So, she will either give you a straight answer, or she try to wiggle out and find an alternative solution.

WW: "I couldn't wait to get back home and be with you. I wanted us to make love and tell you how sorry I was for everything. I dreamed of us taking a little trip......like a second honeymoon, to start over. Then I get here and find you cold and hateful, yelling ultimatums at me, before I can even tell you how I feel. But.....I guess my feelings aren't important to you. Maybe you are right. Maybe we should just get a divorce".

See how that was worked by your fake W (me) in her last response? ^^^^^^^. It is to make you regret what you've just told her and how you handled yourself. She is giving you a picture of something beautiful and than you got into a hurry and messed up everything. It's designed to put you into pursuit mode. Don't do it. Remain calm, whatever happens.

I see it!! So clearly. It will take strength, but I can do it. Now that I understand the full picture. It's amazing to realize my own cluelessness. She got so good at knowing how to make me fold every time.

Good grief, man! You aren't getting ready for your first date, your WW is coming home.

Some people may see this and think you have many lovely attributes, but I don't. I see a H with a lot of NGS.

O, I know. Don't worry. That's why I asked. I know she cares a lot about this kind of stuff, but I also know I am way too eager to comply. I'll make the house clean, but "lived in". I won't wash the cars.

Follow through with basically what I sent in the previous post. If you think I was too shaped tongued in places, you can bring it to my attention, or give a better example. I realize it sounds a lot more like ultimatums than boundaries. I just think you need to be that firm and not play pattiecake with her.

No, I think your examples were perfect. Besides, realistically my delivery will probably be a little less sharp than yours, by default. Me trying to live up to your sharpness probably ends up being just right .

The very best scenario would be if she came home and humbly apologized and ask for your forgiveness, and tell you she wanted to work together in having a good M. If (and that is a big IF) this should be the case, then you can ease into the same conversation, but maybe say it more tenderly. Make sense? I don't think it will take long before you'll know how sincere she is.

Yes, this makes sense. I agree.

Since she's in the military, what kind of trip could she plan?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this? Because of our location, there are tons of places we can travel to and it's a pretty high priority while we're here. She isn't on a deployment, so she can take leave and go on vacation, if that answers your question.

I will role play with you (me being the WW or the H, it doesn't matter). Tell me what role you want. I had written out some scenarios in the post I lost, which is probably for the best.....since I they may have sound a bit sharp.

Hmm...I guess I will be her, since I know her and can try to think up the exact kinds of things she is likely to say and you can show me how to respond Sorry about the lost post.

MWD says in her DR book that if you give an ultimatum, be prepared to back it up. I say the same goes for boundaries. (You can't always just walk away and think the person will respect you for it). The differences in the two is the ultimatums don't give much of a choice. The recepient hears, "Do it my way, or else". Some people don't believe boundaries should have consequences. Well, I do. What good are they if they are dishonored and there are no consequences?

Here is how I see it. You tell her what you will not tolerate. Now, she can do whatever she chooses. Of she chooses not to honor your boundary, then some action should take place as a response. Since it was your boundary, you are the one to choose the action. You said you would not tolerate disrespect any longer. So, the ball in your court. What will you do? If you've already announced what you'd do.......then you best do it. If you didn't say what you'd do......you still need to show action.

To me, ultimatums are saying do it my way or else. So, that may seem how my examples sounded to you, IDK. At this point......and how she pushed this to a head like a nasty pimple.....I think you should be firm in your delivery. If you want to call it an ultimatum or whatever.......it doesn't really matter. I think it will have about the same effect. All I ask is that you don't walk around in your house crowing about this & that being your boundaries. As long as you know what they are, that's the important part. If you use these two examples I sent previously, then you'll need to be ready to follow through if she won't agree to cooperate in showing you respect.

In many ways, this is another confrontation. Only this time, you are hitting hard, and there is just one answer you want to hear. Which is, "I am willing to cooperate and work to save our M". I will be surprised if it's that easy. I don't think she'll be that straight forward about it. Giving her a chance to saying something first, will give you a better idea of what she's thinking. Her waywardness is still there, I'm pretty sure.

I understand. It doesn't have to be something I state over and over, I just need to clear she knows/agrees and then be able and willing to back it up. I too would be surprised if it's that easy, I am trying not to get my hopes up. But that's a little bit where my struggle with the ultimatums comes in. If I give an ultimatum to a wayward wife, that can't end well right? I will be walking away. I'm still struggling with how to have patience and know she can't be fixed overnight, but also be firm about my boundaries and ready to walk. I think the key will be in her willingness to at least agree and try, and get smacked down when she gets out of line. But if she is still wayward and not ready to do that...I leave?

It sort of feels like I am building up the ability to push her farther and farther. Before, I gave no push back and that was the problem. Now, I already feel I have a lot more power to give pushes because I have been practicing and moving that line back, inch by inch, the same way it got to be so bad--slowly. I am seeing her need to change her technique, and gaining more confidence she won't just run away if I rock the boat. The dynamic is changing (and is certainly helped by the position she put herself in by cheating). But I think it takes time and there is still a breaking point; I can't rush in and hit her over the head too soon. I don't know if I'm making any sense...

I will be glad to help. I don't think it's necessary to present it at the same time you tell her the first two boundaries. Once that conversation dies down, and if it seems to go well and she's showing positive signs of cooperating, then you might suggest that each of you make separate lists of what you need in the M, which the other spouse can provide.

That sounds like a good idea. I think from the get-go, the main thing I "need" is respect, and that is covered by the first boundary. The second would probably be commitment, which is sort of built into the conversation about if she agrees to go all in on working on the MR (and not have any outside inappropriate relationships).

Also, she isn't coming back until Saturday now--the replacement's flight got cancelled. But, it will give me more time to prepare

[sandi2]

While I wait to hear from you today, I will write some scenarios as I think of them.

Scenario #1: WW comes home, and when she sees you, she hugs you and seems to struggle holding back tears. After she gets settled in, she initiates a conversation.....acting almost shy about it.
WW: "Are you still mad at me"?
You: "I'm not sure how I feel, at the moment".
WW: "Well, I don't care anything about the OM. I hope you know that, and I have no intentions of ever contacting him again. I hope we can have a fresh start".
You: "I'm afraid it's not that simple anymore".
WW: "What do you mean"?
You: "I've had time to do a lot of soul searching about my role in our relationship, and also, about what I need in a MR and from my wife".
WW: "Well, I've thought a lot about my feelings, too. I have had a lot of unmet needs for a long time. I'm not sure you can meet those needs anymore".
You: "You may be right".
WW: "So, are you saying you want a divorce"?
You: "I am saying I want a new relationship. Maybe it will be with you, or someone else. We can decide to move forward in a new and better relationship together, or if we get a divorce. However, if we decide to move forward, it won't be in separate bedrooms or any type of separation methods. At the moment, we need to decide if we do the work to save our M, or call it quits and file for a D".
WW: "I'm not ready for us to start having sex. I'm not sure my feelings will ever return".
You: "You have made your feelings well known to me. Your treatment toward me has affected my feelings, as well. There are other things that need to be understood and agreed upon before we even discuss sex". (Than you begin to lay out the boundary about respect, etc.)


Scenario #2: WW comes home and is all smiles, acting very nice, almost as if nothing has happened. You exchange pleasantries while she makes herself comfortable. You give her a chance to initiate a conversation about the sitch.

WW: "So, how have you been the past few days while not talking to me"?
You: "Surprisingly well. I've done a lot of thinking about the future".
WW: "I have given it a lot of thought, also. 44, I want you to know I am terribly sorry about the whole thing with OM. I didn't take it seriously. It just started out as friends, and he started getting serious, but I never felt serious about him. I was just in an unhappy place in our MR, and I wondered if I could feel attraction for someone else. (Notice a little twist & turn in her reasoning). Anyway, I have ended it, so it is over.
You: "I see, you just want to put it all behind us and continue on as before the OM came on the scene"?
WW: "He was never the problem. I told you......I don't know if my attraction can ever return. I think we should leave things as they are for a while, and work on our friendship. See where if we can become closer. I've been really hurt with how distant you've been, not sharing, not talking, being secretive. I need to know where you are going and when you will be home. That's only considerate, and I think I deserve that much".
You: "Yes, it is considerate for a couple to think of their spouse's feelings, not to have secrets, unknown activities, exclusive friendships, private texting, etc".
WW: "Oh I see, you just want to get back at me! Make me feel guilty! That's why you were playing your secret little games, to punish me. Well, forget it, b/c that isn't going to happen"!
You: "Hum....maybe. It's tempting, but no, there is little satisfaction there. I suppose I was hurting too badly myself. You had betrayed my trust, and I needed some space to think about my role as a husband and determine what changes I needed to make. Your actions indicated you saw a double standard in our MR.
WW: (Goes into all kinds of excuses or rattles off accusations and essentially blaming her H for every problem in the MR).
You: "I hear what you are saying. I heard you when you talked about your feelings last week. Now, I ask that you hear what what I have to say".

(You begin the discussion stating your boundaries about respect).

Scenario #3:WW comes home and is appears humble and sincerely apologizes for everything and asks if you can forgive her.

WW: "Can you forgive me"?
Yes: "Yes. However, you betrayed me and broke my trust, so I will need to see certain behaviors change, in order for me to be able to fully trust you".
WW: "What kind of changes? I've already ended things with OM. Besides, I'm not the only one who needs to make changes around here. Seems to me you have been taking a lot for granted....yada....yada".
You: Yes, there needs to be a lot of changes in both of us. I have thought of nothing else while you've been gone. At the moment, we need to decide if we are going to do the work to save the M, or quit. Do we go all in, or forsake it.......b/c I will tell you upfront that I will no longer accept a one-sided MR. We either reconcile and have a real M, or we end this mockery".
WW: "Wouldn't it best if we just learned to be friends, first, and then see how things go? B/c I'm not ready to resume sleeping together".
WW: "You can't have it both ways, W. Sleeping in separate beds is not bringing us closer together. It causes more distance. I am painfully aware of your feelings. My feelings have been affected, too. Before we can deal with those feelings in a healthy way, we need to make the decision to go forward building a new MR, or end it. I am tired of the mistreatment and disrespect, and frankly, I don't intend to endure it any longer". (Then go into the part about your boundary, respect, etc.).

Scenario #4: WW comes in the house and is nice, even loving toward you.

WW: "Can we just put this behind us and forget it ever happened"?
You: "I wish it was that simple".
WW: "It can be, if you'll let it".
You; Well, I've done a lot of thinking about it, and I am no longer willing to accept the relationship we previously had. I can't, and won't, sweep this under the rug and pretend nothing happened, b/c you broke my trust and betrayed me".
WW: "I think you are making too much out of it. I only kissed OM to see if I could feel like a normal woman. It didn't mean anything". If you are going to hold it over my head for the rest of my life, then we just need to fully separate".
You: "I don't intend to hold it over your head. Neither do I intend to shrug it off as nothing serious. My W carried on a secret and inappropriate relationship with another man. In my book, that is the epitome of disrespect......which fell in line with your overall disrespectful attitude and behavior toward me". (Begin the part with going forward and not accepting disrespect from her).


Scenario #5: WW comes home and immediately expresses remorse, is very emotional, etc. She shows humility, sorrowfulness, and begs for your forgiveness.

WW: "I've treated you terribly and am so sorry. I will do whatever it takes to make our MR better, if you will give me another chance". (I doubt it will sound this good....but this is just a scenario).

You: "I hope and pray you are being honest, b/c I have done a lot of hard thinking about our relationship and how I lived with your disrespectful behavior. I loved you so much that I lost sight of some very important issues. I don't want a divorce, but I won't continue going in the direction of our current relationship. If you are willing to work at showing me respectful behavior, then I will do my part. I don't expect your feelings for me to change overnight, but I do expect your behavior to change. I will not stay in a M where I am not treated with respect. I need to know if you will agree, or if we call it quits. I don't want a half-marriage where we sleep in separate rooms and pretend to have some sort of friendship. I want a real marriage, and a real wife who loves and appreciates me".
WW: "Can you forgive me"?
You: "Yes, for the inappropriate relationship with OM, I can forgive. However, I need your agreement that you will no longer have exclusive friendships, private texting, etc. You need to be transparent about your social communications. If you aren't willing, then I can't continue trying to build a life with someone I can't trust".
WW: "It may take me some time. You know I like to have my privacy, and I feel it has been violated. I don't know if I feel comfortable with you seeing everything. Besides, you broke my trust by snooping". (I don't know if she realizes that is how you know about OM, or not).
You: "You brought a third party into our M, so don't talk to me about how violated you feel. As for it taking you time......we aren't going to play that game. You either agree or you don't. It's that simple. There is no negotiation on this issue, and there is no point of talking about anything else, if you are not in agreement to be transparent in order to help me trust you going forward. If you aren't even willing to stop hiding who you are texting, then what makes you think you deserve another chance in a committed relationship....like marriage"?
WW: "Everyone needs a certain amount of privacy. I noticed you wanted privacy recently and was acting very secretive".
You: "That was after I had learned about your secret affair, and I had hoped you would wake up and realize that you can't demand accountability from me when you are not willing to be open as well. You wanted to control every move I made, have me report in to you.....but have your secret OM on the side. I'd call that a double standard. I have never acted inappropriately with anyone. I have been faithful to you. You can't demand accountability from me, and have your private life on the side. That doesn't work for me, and I won't accept that kind of life. I want a wife who loves me and appreciates what I do.....not tell me how she isn't attracted to me and then turn around to demand I give an account for every minute I am not in her sight. And, don't even get me started about your self entitled attitude, expecting to be waited on hand & foot just b/c you are bringing home a paycheck. I'm done with it".
WW: "Well, I think I do deserve a little attention, since all you do is stay home while I work".
You: "I am working very hard to earn a higher degree, which will draw a better salary. I don't mind doing my share around the house, but when you expect my services simply in return for room & board......I won't do it. I'm done with your entitlement cr@p".
WW: "You've said some pretty harsh things to me. I was ready to put everything behind us and try to make things right. But I see you don't feel the same way".
You: (Say nothing. Just look at her, not stirred and not shaken... ).
WW: "So I suppose this leaves us right back where we were".
You: "Not quite".
WW: "Why, what do you mean"?
You: "I don't intend to go back to the way things were. We either go forward with new behavior changes, or we divorce. No separation, no half-marriage-half separate-friendship arrangement".
WW: "I don't know. I'll have to think about it".
You" "I won't remain in this situation, and I won't wait long for you to decide if you want to stay M or get a D. If you wait long, then I will have to make the decision, myself".

[sandi2]

So, what exactly do you mean by give in too quickly? This is something I am confused on, because I have read Zeus' post about not taking them back too easily like ten times. I don't want to do it, despite the temptation to finally feel some relief and closeness. But if we have the conversation, and she agrees to commit, is that "giving in"? I mean I'm essentially telling her I will take her back, under "all in" conditions. I understand she will still have bad habits and I cannot soften on letting her get away with any of them. I just want to make sure I'm clear on what not "giving in too quickly" means.

I mean, you don't just take her word that she is going to commit or be transparent, or change her behavior and show respect. Some guys are so keyed up about just getting her to stay with him that they give a big sigh of relief and go right back into the same situation again. You have to hold her feet to the fire until you are convinced she has truly changed and is seriously trying her hardest to show respectful treatment. Your goal is not to just get her to stay. She has to prove herself. And you have to prove that you will not accept cr@ppy behavior. Understand? Getting past the initial "talk" where you let her know where you stand, is just the first step. Btw, I wrote about this very subject in my second thread to LBH's with a WW.

I have a feeling, if she doesn't want to lose me, she is going to agree to anything but it will be hard to know how much of it is her desperation in the moment.

That's part of not letting her back too easily. I'm always telling the LBH to make his WW "work" to get him back. If she doesn't, she won't respect or appreciate him....b/c she didn't have to work for it and got it too easily. That's called "spoiled"! She may be so emotional, she'll agree to most anything, but I kind of doubt it. You cannot budge from your position on going forward with a new MR or ending it. I know you are scared, but you have to take this hard stand and make her believe you are ready to end it, rather than accepting her disrespectful and entitled behavior.

the feeling I had was something I haven't felt in so long. Like she was finally not trying to arm wrestle me. I was finally in the driver's seat.

It/s b@lls, 44. Big ole b@lls of steel. Listen, we women love men with big b@lls. Draws us like flies to honey. Don't buy into her bluff.

I think it will be a long time before she is comfortable with me driving and stops trying to fight back, if we get there at all. Now I will make it clear that if she can't let go of that stubbornness, she loses me.

It's hard to relent the power when she's had it so long, but once she sees you can handle her, she'll like it. She may not like at first, in fact, I think you can count on it. She'll test you, but once you've proven yourself, she's going to fall in love with you.

I see it!! So clearly. It will take strength, but I can do it. Now that I understand the full picture. It's amazing to realize my own cluelessness. She got so good at knowing how to make me fold every time.

I am so relieved to hear you say so. I also sent a long, long post with about five detailed scenarios. I hope they will help you.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Since she's in the military, what kind of trip could she plan?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this? Because of our location, there are tons of places we can travel to and it's a pretty high priority while we're here. She isn't on a deployment, so she can take leave and go on vacation, if that answers your question.

Okay, well if she takes off, so be it. It doesn't change your position.

If I give an ultimatum to a wayward wife, that can't end well right?

It's not the best way, if you can word it where it doesn't sound like one. Actually, you are giving an ultimatum, which is that she start behaving like a respectful W or you are out. But maybe it won't sound so much like an ultimatum when you say it, as when I say it.

That sounds like a good idea. I think from the get-go, the main thing I "need" is respect, and that is covered by the first boundary. The second would probably be commitment, which is sort of built into the conversation about if she agrees to go all in on working on the MR (and not have any outside inappropriate relationships).

Yeah, we aren't going to worry about making a his & her list of wants/needs until we've got this other part clearly established. She'll probably want her say, but if she's truly remorseful, I don't think she'll be blaming and accusing you, trying to make you feel bad about her feelings. That's is so disgusting. This is the time for her to shut up and listen to what you have to say. But whatever........I think you'll be able to tell to some degree if she's really remorseful. I don't know she'll be remorseful about the disrespect (apart from the A) until after she has to start actually implementing respectful behavior.

[44tries]

While I wait to hear from you today, I will write some scenarios as I think of them.

Wow, Sandi, these scenarios are SO helpful! And so nuanced. How deliberate were you about what to say in each one? By that I mean, what if I ended up using stuff from more than one? Or is everything very specific? Also, you mention stating the boundaries at the end of each (except #5, although they were touched on within the dialogue)...so am I clear that the boundaries are to be stated before she makes a definitive commitment to go "all in"? I state them and if she is in agreement, then I confirm she is totally committed?

I find it interesting that scenario 5 seems to start out the most promising...and seemingly ends the least promising. To your question about the snooping, I managed to avoid that topic altogether so she does not know. I intend to keep it that way, I don't see any reason for divulging it as it was a 10 second glance and frankly, it was warranted. She never explicitly asked and I made it sound like I had seen enough during all the times she was blatantly texting him in front of me, while I drove, etc. I am going to read over the scenarios again as I prepare and if I have specific questions, I will ask. And I might try to come up with some other things I feel she may say and ask about responses. Thank you for taking the time to write all those out, I cannot emphasize how helpful they are.

O, one last question. Since I will be picking her up from the airport, I should avoid having any of this talk in the car, right? I don't know if she will launch into it, and the drive home is about 35 minutes. I'm sure I can make small talk about the trip and stuff if need be. For some reason, I have a bit of anxiety about the transition into the conversation in the case that she doesn't initiate (this would probably look something like scenario 2, with less overt questions from her). For all her controlling ways, she isn't really that dominant in personality, especially if she is uncomfortable, and I could see her just being nice and anxiously waiting for my move.

I mean, you don't just take her word that she is going to commit or be transparent, or change her behavior and show respect. Some guys are so keyed up about just getting her to stay with him that they give a big sigh of relief and go right back into the same situation again. You have to hold her feet to the fire until you are convinced she has truly changed and is seriously trying her hardest to show respectful treatment. Your goal is not to just get her to stay. She has to prove herself. And you have to prove that you will not accept cr@ppy behavior. Understand? Getting past the initial "talk" where you let her know where you stand, is just the first step. Btw, I wrote about this very subject in my second thread to LBH's with a WW.

I understand. Especially since I'm not overly worried that she is going to come back and demand a D or something, hopefully the relief if she agrees to work on the MR won't be too extreme. I get that the initial talk is just the first step and the real stuff comes when I prove I won't tolerate the past dynamics. I will read your second thread again (last time I read it, this topic wasn't my primary concern at the time ).

That's part of not letting her back too easily. I'm always telling the LBH to make his WW "work" to get him back. If she doesn't, she won't respect or appreciate him....b/c she didn't have to work for it and got it too easily. That's called "spoiled"! She may be so emotional, she'll agree to most anything, but I kind of doubt it. You cannot budge from your position on going forward with a new MR or ending it. I know you are scared, but you have to take this hard stand and make her believe you are ready to end it, rather than accepting her disrespectful and entitled behavior.

I am clear. I know the stand I have to make. I am a lot less scared now that I have already gained a lot of confidence pushing her and rocking the boat. And as I said above, I think I know her hand and she has given a lot of signs that me walking out the door is not something she wants (but I know that is very different than committing to go all in on the MR).

It/s b@lls, 44. Big ole b@lls of steel. Listen, we women love men with big b@lls. Draws us like flies to honey. Don't buy into her bluff.

Well, they feel good Sandi! I won't let them get away again. I know now so much of her control tactics are bluffs. I've been folding all this time while her hands are really nothing to be afraid of.

It's hard to relent the power when she's had it so long, but once she sees you can handle her, she'll like it. She may not like at first, in fact, I think you can count on it. She'll test you, but once you've proven yourself, she's going to fall in love with you.

This is very encouraging. I had sort of forgotten about that little fact and was prepping for a long, drawn out war. At first, you're right, it will be bloody. But hopefully it's not a long battle and if the end result is her falling back in love me, well you can imagine I will be quite pleased .

I am so relieved to hear you say so. I also sent a long, long post with about five detailed scenarios. I hope they will help you.

You don't need to hope, they are extremely helpful!

Okay, well if she takes off, so be it. It doesn't change your position.

I think I'm still confused about your original question about the trips I never implied she would take a trip to run away. All her talks about trips the past couple weeks have been her trying to plan a trip with me.

It's not the best way, if you can word it where it doesn't sound like one. Actually, you are giving an ultimatum, which is that she start behaving like a respectful W or you are out. But maybe it won't sound so much like an ultimatum when you say it, as when I say it.

Okay, this is good to know. That an ultimatum is in fact not ideal, but essentially what I need to say is one. I can try to be cognizant of it sounding like I'm trying to trap or control her (I think that would be the root of why an ultimatum is bad). Rather, I will make it clear that it's something I need to continue a relationship with her, and it's her choice whether she gives it to me.

Yeah, we aren't going to worry about making a his & her list of wants/needs until we've got this other part clearly established. She'll probably want her say, but if she's truly remorseful, I don't think she'll be blaming and accusing you, trying to make you feel bad about her feelings. That's is so disgusting. This is the time for her to shut up and listen to what you have to say. But whatever........I think you'll be able to tell to some degree if she's really remorseful. I don't know she'll be remorseful about the disrespect (apart from the A) until after she has to start actually implementing respectful behavior.

I agree. I'm not so hopeful to think that she won't have things to say about her hurt and frustrations with the MR...she is still self-focused. But I hope it won't be excessive, she can give me equal (or, frankly, greater) consideration, and the real line will be if she twists any of the blame on me for the A itself. Based on the confrontation conversation, I don't think she will, but you never know with a WW right? As far as the respect goes, frankly, I don't think she will totally "get" it right away, because even though she has admitted to treating me horribly I don't think she even realizes the full extent. I think you're right that it won't be until I start putting down some firmness and correcting her behavior that she will start to truly see and understand and feel real remorse for everything.

[sandi2]

How deliberate were you about what to say in each one? By that I mean, what if I ended up using stuff from more than one? Or is everything very specific?

You want the honest-to-goodness truth? I am seldom deliberate about anything I post. By that I mean I don't think it out, before I word it. (That may be pretty obvious in places). Anyway, I just started typing. I hope that doesn't disappoint you.......or scare you to death. (lol) I had intended yesterday to try to organize something, but I ran short on time, so I shot from the hip. So, you don't have to use my exact words (that would be a lot to memorize, anyway..... ) or be that specific. I was simply trying to give an idea of how she might approach you, and how you could handle it.....since you seem to like the idea of scenarios.

Hope it wasn't too confusing at the end of each scenario where I referred back to the two boundaries. So, each scenario was kind of leading up to the final statement of your boundaries and/or anything attached I previous had said with those. I just didn't want to rewrite all that long speech after each scenario. If you are confused, please ask away. Oh, and for the fifth one, I should have added it at the bottom, just to make sure you get in the boundary about not tolerating disrespect in any form......b/c most of the 5th one was more on the subject of her secret affair.

I didn't write out every possible scenario, b/c there could always be something unpredictable, however I hope you'll practice using various things she might say and how you would handle it. I did not write the very best case scenario, which would be for her to feel very remoresful and to be 100% in and willing to do whatever you said without any hesitation. You would still need to state your boundaries, but obviously, you would not have to be harsh. Firmly, yes. You will take you cue from her attitude and how she reacts to everything. I didn't write it out, b/c frankly, I just doubt she's going to come home feeling completely remorseful. Now, she may feel some guilt over the affair, but you really didn't get into discussing how badly she disrespected you in other ways, when you talked with her on the phone......or did you? She may not be expecting anything but talking about the OM. Waywards find justifications for their actions, and that is one reason why it's hard for them to feel remorse quickly. But it's needed for both your sakes.

I find it interesting that scenario 5 seems to start out the most promising...and seemingly ends the least promising.

Funny you should say so, b/c I had not planned out any scenario or how the discussion would go, but when I started the fifth one, I thought, "Well, may I should try to write one as the the best case scenario", but first thing you know.......it took a turn. And that's just likely what will happen IRL. If you see her start out in a somewhat positive direction.....she could turn on a dime.

She never explicitly asked and I made it sound like I had seen enough during all the times she was blatantly texting him in front of me, while I drove, etc

Okay, that's good. If she asks or accuses, you don't have to reveal your source of intel. Not that it really matters in your case, but it just gives her room to argue, be stubborn, etc. She is the one who did wrong, so don't let her twist it around to sound like you were wrong to look.

one last question. Since I will be picking her up from the airport, I should avoid having any of this talk in the car, right?

I thought she had arranged for someone else to meet her. Anyway........No, you don't try to have small talk with her during the ride home, 44! You nice guy, you!! Let her worry about what to say during that ride home. As wordy as you are, she'll get concerned seeing you not having anything to say, don't you think? Why should you be asking her anything about her trip? Doesn't that equate to calling her and responding to her texts when she was there? Maybe not, but You could care less about her trip, and making idle chit-chat for 35 min. Get it?

So, just say hello, and speak if it is absolutely neccessessary to have some type of response.....then mainly use a one syllable grunt. don't do a lot of smiling and acting so nappy to see her. Know what I mean? Act serious. Do not try to make friendly chit-chat on the way home, b/c this is your usual MO, and she'll expect it. She should be nervous and worried about how you are going to act when she comes home. Seeing you chattering away like Mr. Nice Guy, she'll think...."Hey, no worries, he's just fine and I will continue being a bully"! If she decides to take advantage while you are behind the wheel, (and come to think of it, why wouldn't she) and starts trying to get into everything, you can tell her to wait till getting home to have this discussion......and not while you are driving. This may be where she uses the scenario......"Are you still made at me"? Or.....you can just wing it, but I think you'd do better waiting till you get home and you have your bearings. I hope she pees in her pants!

I have a bit of anxiety about the transition into the conversation in the case that she doesn't initiate (this would probably look something like scenario 2, with less overt questions from her).

(I can picture you in my mind). You are nervous about the transition b/c you have been apart a few days and knowing this is all coming. Out of nervousness, you may feel/want to chatter her ears off......but resist the temptation and notice how nervous your calmness makes her. Seriously, if she has any maturity whatsoever, she should expect to at least get talking from you! This little switcheroo should help build your confidence.

For all her controlling ways, she isn't really that dominant in personality, especially if she is uncomfortable, and I could see her just being nice and anxiously waiting for my mov

She doesn't have to own a dominant personality to be wayward. I hope she is very nervous and anxiously waiting for you to make the first move. That's why I said I hope she pees in her pants. She should be very concerned. Don't go all melty-cheese on me, now. You can't start feeling sorry for her, if you detect her being nervous. If you see her tear up and start crying while you are giving her the tough talk......don't you dare start melting. Don't offer to hold her, hug or comfort her. Women have used tears for 6,000 years to manipulate men. Seriously, I hope she does cry over her bad treatment of you. This could be the beginning of something good.......like a wonderful MR, once she grows up and loses that self entitlement.

I think I started those scenarios with her making the initial move into the talk, but I was just trying to show you some idea how to respond and keep on track. If you initiate the talk ......then you can follow that post I sent with the two boundaries, b/c that was in itself a scenario.

Okay, this is good to know. That an ultimatum is in fact not ideal, but essentially what I need to say is one. I can try to be cognizant of it sounding like I'm trying to trap or control her (I think that would be the root of why an ultimatum is bad). Rather, I will make it clear that it's something I need to continue a relationship with her, and it's her choice whether she gives it to me.

Well, when you say it like that......you aren't controlling. You are telling her what you cannot and will not tolerate any longer. You aren't telling her she has no choice in the matter. In fact, you are wanting to know her decision, rather than continuing on pretending some half-marriage arrangement where she is manipulating you at every turn. So, IMHO, it is not an ultimatum, but I figure someone reading would see it differently. I have read the differences between boundaries and ultimatums, and have even written posts about it, but I lost my bookmarks and yesterday my brain was too tired.....so I coped out and just said, okay call it an ultimatum, I don't care. (lol)

I guess I just misunderstood about her planning some trip. So....never mind.

I will end for today. If you think of something, let me know. I feel good about this and you are going to handle it fine. You have someone very powerful in your corner. He loves her just as much as you, and God wants this M to work, too. If she won't be the W she is suppose to be, you'll be hurt, but you will heal and God will take care of you. I'm saying you, the man I know as 44, are going to be just fine with or without this woman in your life. But I feel you two are going to make it. ((hugs))

[Zues126]

Hi 44!

I read your comment about rereading my post and was very confused, I didn't remember writing a post recently to you about taking your spouse back too soon. I started going through your threads and couldn't find it, and then it hit me that you might be referring to a thread I wrote a while back to the general DB community. So let me start by sharing that it cheered me up to know that something I contributed was of value. I only wish I could take more burden off of you.

Then I realized I hadn't actually posted on your thread before. I haven't been posting as much lately. But in actuality I have been following your sitch very closely. Maybe because you have Sandi and Artista posting to you and I always like to read their posts. But also because you have a lot in common with me in the sense of some NGS tendencies, a deliberate and analytical approach, and a deep love for your WW and desire to save your marriage. Maybe this isn't so rare, non-analytical people may not find their way to forums, nor those who don't want to save their Ms, and I think NGS is a darn epidemic especially in these crisis. But still, there's more than that, I just feel like I get where you're coming from.

So I wanted to post and let you know that I'm following and rooting for you and am proud with the work you've done and the path you're on. You've got a good head on your shoulders and some of the best in the businesses giving you guidance and support. Keep fighting the good fight and we're all in your corner!

[44tries]

You want the honest-to-goodness truth? I am seldom deliberate about anything I post. By that I mean I don't think it out, before I word it. (That may be pretty obvious in places). Anyway, I just started typing. I hope that doesn't disappoint you.......or scare you to death. (lol) I had intended yesterday to try to organize something, but I ran short on time, so I shot from the hip. So, you don't have to use my exact words (that would be a lot to memorize, anyway..... ) or be that specific. I was simply trying to give an idea of how she might approach you, and how you could handle it.....since you seem to like the idea of scenarios.

No, it doesn't disappoint or scare me . I just wondered. Knowing that, I will feel free to take bits and pieces from each if it's appropriate.

Hope it wasn't too confusing at the end of each scenario where I referred back to the two boundaries. So, each scenario was kind of leading up to the final statement of your boundaries and/or anything attached I previous had said with those. I just didn't want to rewrite all that long speech after each scenario. If you are confused, please ask away. Oh, and for the fifth one, I should have added it at the bottom, just to make sure you get in the boundary about not tolerating disrespect in any form......b/c most of the 5th one was more on the subject of her secret affair.

Thanks for clarifying about #5. I understand not wanting to rewrite the boundary speech five times . The only thing I'm confused about is having the boundary speech before confirming she wants to work on the MR. That is the right order, right? I understand the idea that she should know what I expect before committing, but it also seems a bit odd to start laying out the boundaries before I know for sure that she even wants to continue. I guess as the actual scenario plays out, I will have a good idea which direction it's going before getting to the boundary speech, so maybe this confusion is just me over-analyzing ahead of time.

I didn't write out every possible scenario, b/c there could always be something unpredictable, however I hope you'll practice using various things she might say and how you would handle it. I did not write the very best case scenario, which would be for her to feel very remoresful and to be 100% in and willing to do whatever you said without any hesitation. You would still need to state your boundaries, but obviously, you would not have to be harsh. Firmly, yes. You will take you cue from her attitude and how she reacts to everything. I didn't write it out, b/c frankly, I just doubt she's going to come home feeling completely remorseful. Now, she may feel some guilt over the affair, but you really didn't get into discussing how badly she disrespected you in other ways, when you talked with her on the phone......or did you? She may not be expecting anything but talking about the OM. Waywards find justifications for their actions, and that is one reason why it's hard for them to feel remorse quickly. But it's needed for both your sakes.

She did bring up her bad treatment of me on her own during our phone conversation. She seems to have some awareness of her bad habits because this is not the first time she has told me she knows her behavior toward me can get out of control. Not that we discuss it often, and I honestly cannot remember what I have said in response to these admissions/apologies in the past. I don't think I was too quick to forgive or downplay, but let's just assume I was way too passive about it . This time, on the phone, I made sure to reinforce what she said about her horrible treatment. I wasn't a jerk, but I said something like "yes, you have been disrespectful in a lot of ways and it isn't okay". That was actually when she became so distraught she couldn't talk anymore. I don't think she was expecting me to be so firm in agreement. You might remember one of her follow up texts said "I can barely live knowing and hearing how awful I was." That was directly referring to the part of the conversation where she brought up her bad treatment. Anyway, I'm not sure where her remorse for that lies on the sincerity scale, but I think there is at least some.

Funny you should say so, b/c I had not planned out any scenario or how the discussion would go, but when I started the fifth one, I thought, "Well, may I should try to write one as the the best case scenario", but first thing you know.......it took a turn. And that's just likely what will happen IRL. If you see her start out in a somewhat positive direction.....she could turn on a dime.

This is probably very accurate. I'm trying to be prepared for anything and for wild swings. My biggest concern is if she shows a lot of ambivalence, expressing whatever concerns she has about moving forward to work on the MR. I don't want to fall into the trap where I start trying to convince her. I can see her saying things like "IDK if we just don't have a connection and aren't meant for each other, or if I just refuse to let it in." Or "Maybe I'm just too damaged. If I really had true love to offer, it wouldn't be so hard." "You don't deserve to let my inability to be happy prevent you from a happy life." "No one else should be dragged down by my repeated cycle to self-sabotage everything good in my life." I'm making this up, but you get the idea...a bunch of self-focused musings, feeling sorry for herself, saying she has issues but they can't be fixed. She could very well suffer from depression or some other mental health issue, but she refuses to get help due to fear for her career. For this same reason, I'm worried she will be resistant to counseling.

Anyway, you can see how if she says things like the above, me being analytical Mr. Nice Guy, my instinct is going to be to try to offer solutions. Suddenly, I'm over-explaining and sounding like I'm trying to convince her why her issues don't mean our MR is doomed. If you have any tips about how to respond to any "woe is me" tangents, I would be grateful.

Okay, that's good. If she asks or accuses, you don't have to reveal your source of intel. Not that it really matters in your case, but it just gives her room to argue, be stubborn, etc. She is the one who did wrong, so don't let her twist it around to sound like you were wrong to look.

Got it, I won't worry about evading/lying on this one particular issue, but I don't think it will come up.

I thought she had arranged for someone else to meet her. Anyway........No, you don't try to have small talk with her during the ride home, 44! You nice guy, you!! Let her worry about what to say during that ride home. As wordy as you are, she'll get concerned seeing you not having anything to say, don't you think? Why should you be asking her anything about her trip? Doesn't that equate to calling her and responding to her texts when she was there? Maybe not, but You could care less about her trip, and making idle chit-chat for 35 min. Get it?

She tried to say she would have work do it, but she wanted me to all along. I wasn't going to play her game where she tried to say she wouldn't bother me and hoped I would chase. At some point, she just directly asked me.

Ahh, NGS rears it's ugly head Okay, no small talk. Understood.

So, just say hello, and speak if it is absolutely neccessessary to have some type of response.....then mainly use a one syllable grunt. don't do a lot of smiling and acting so nappy to see her. Know what I mean? Act serious. Do not try to make friendly chit-chat on the way home, b/c this is your usual MO, and she'll expect it. She should be nervous and worried about how you are going to act when she comes home. Seeing you chattering away like Mr. Nice Guy, she'll think...."Hey, no worries, he's just fine and I will continue being a bully"! If she decides to take advantage while you are behind the wheel, (and come to think of it, why wouldn't she) and starts trying to get into everything, you can tell her to wait till getting home to have this discussion......and not while you are driving. This may be where she uses the scenario......"Are you still made at me"? Or.....you can just wing it, but I think you'd do better waiting till you get home and you have your bearings. I hope she pees in her pants!

This made me laugh!! I will make her sweat (or pee her pants).

(I can picture you in my mind). You are nervous about the transition b/c you have been apart a few days and knowing this is all coming. Out of nervousness, you may feel/want to chatter her ears off......but resist the temptation and notice how nervous your calmness makes her. Seriously, if she has any maturity whatsoever, she should expect to at least get talking from you! This little switcheroo should help build your confidence.

The bold sentence confused me a bit, but I think I understand. I will resist temptation to be nice and chatty and be ultra cool, calm. You are saying she will expect me to talk? So the calmness will make her nervous, right?

She doesn't have to own a dominant personality to be wayward. I hope she is very nervous and anxiously waiting for you to make the first move. That's why I said I hope she pees in her pants. She should be very concerned. Don't go all melty-cheese on me, now. You can't start feeling sorry for her, if you detect her being nervous. If you see her tear up and start crying while you are giving her the tough talk......don't you dare start melting. Don't offer to hold her, hug or comfort her. Women have used tears for 6,000 years to manipulate men. Seriously, I hope she does cry over her bad treatment of you. This could be the beginning of something good.......like a wonderful MR, once she grows up and loses that self entitlement.

This will be the hardest thing!! No more melty-cheesy 44. I will not offer any consolation if she cries. It helps to think of it as manipulation, even if she is being sincere.

I think I started those scenarios with her making the initial move into the talk, but I was just trying to show you some idea how to respond and keep on track. If you initiate the talk ......then you can follow that post I sent with the two boundaries, b/c that was in itself a scenario.

This makes sense. If she doesn't initiate, I will just move forward with the boundaries talk. I guess this will sort of be assuming she wants to keep our relationship? If she doesn't, she will say so? This kind of goes back to my original question of which comes first...

Well, when you say it like that......you aren't controlling. You are telling her what you cannot and will not tolerate any longer. You aren't telling her she has no choice in the matter. In fact, you are wanting to know her decision, rather than continuing on pretending some half-marriage arrangement where she is manipulating you at every turn. So, IMHO, it is not an ultimatum, but I figure someone reading would see it differently. I have read the differences between boundaries and ultimatums, and have even written posts about it, but I lost my bookmarks and yesterday my brain was too tired.....so I coped out and just said, okay call it an ultimatum, I don't care. (lol)

Lol. Okay, I get it. I think it depends on how you look at it, but in this case, it doesn't really matter. She needs to decide if she wants the MR or not, and know she can't have in-betweensies (yes, I just made that word up). She might not feel totally convicted, but I think (hope) if I make her choose all or nothing, she will choose all. To steal a line from MWD, we can always get divorced. Committing to give it our best shot doesn't have to mean we are trapped as prisoners in an unhappy MR forever. I feel this would be her biggest hesitation--to know she can't promise her feelings will return or whatever other [insert woe is me problem here], and be afraid she will never get another chance to escape (remember, I used to be the guy she knew would never leave). Oo back to the temptation I know I will have to say all these things...I think I need to tell myself to state the boundaries and then STFU...

I will end for today. If you think of something, let me know. I feel good about this and you are going to handle it fine. You have someone very powerful in your corner. He loves her just as much as you, and God wants this M to work, too. If she won't be the W she is suppose to be, you'll be hurt, but you will heal and God will take care of you. I'm saying you, the man I know as 44, are going to be just fine with or without this woman in your life. But I feel you two are going to make it. ((hugs))

Thank you so much, Sandi. All your help means the world to me. I know you are right, and I will be just fine either way. But, I hope your feeling is right, and we will make it.

[44tries]

Hi 44!

I read your comment about rereading my post and was very confused, I didn't remember writing a post recently to you about taking your spouse back too soon. I started going through your threads and couldn't find it, and then it hit me that you might be referring to a thread I wrote a while back to the general DB community. So let me start by sharing that it cheered me up to know that something I contributed was of value. I only wish I could take more burden off of you.

Then I realized I hadn't actually posted on your thread before. I haven't been posting as much lately. But in actuality I have been following your sitch very closely. Maybe because you have Sandi and Artista posting to you and I always like to read their posts. But also because you have a lot in common with me in the sense of some NGS tendencies, a deliberate and analytical approach, and a deep love for your WW and desire to save your marriage. Maybe this isn't so rare, non-analytical people may not find their way to forums, nor those who don't want to save their Ms, and I think NGS is a darn epidemic especially in these crisis. But still, there's more than that, I just feel like I get where you're coming from.

So I wanted to post and let you know that I'm following and rooting for you and am proud with the work you've done and the path you're on. You've got a good head on your shoulders and some of the best in the businesses giving you guidance and support. Keep fighting the good fight and we're all in your corner!

Hey Zues!

Yes, I was in fact referring to the post you wrote for the community. I didn't check the date to see how long it's been since you wrote it, but it is linked somewhere (maybe in the resource thread?). It was so helpful! That post, along with Sandi's second LBH thread, is like the definitive guide on how to reconcile the "right" way. I'm glad you were cheered up to directly see someone getting value

Thanks so much for your touching words. It means a lot to know there are people following and rooting for me. It definitely sounds like we are very similar and you "get it" (and I agree, NGS is an epidemic!). Your encouragement is so appreciated. I hope one day I can give back the same way you have.

[Mowgli]

Good luck today!

Not adding anything that Sandi hasn't already said better.

You got this!

[ovrrnbw]

So how have you made since the last time you posted? NC, I hope.

As I said yesterday, I think we all are on the same page. I may adding too much, trying to prepare you. I don't want you getting confused again, okay? However, if you don't understand how or when something is to take place, just ask. If I know, I'll speak up.

This is really good insight.. and also crushing for me. It kills me to think I made my W feel that way. And I can definitely see why it would cause such vulnerability to cheating.

Don't take responsibility or blame for her decision to cheat. Don't make statements to her like the one quoted above. I understand what you mean, but she won't be mentally/emotionally in a place to hear it, without taking full advantage of you. Many LBH's say something along those lines, thinking they are meeting the WW half way. No, he can't says things that sound as if he is taking responsibility for any of her bad behavior. Those were her free choices to make. Waywardness is not forced on another person. It begins with a negative mental attitude toward the spouse. It's like a lazer beam that is directed solely at him. She blames everything wrong in her life on him. The disrespectful actions begin to reflect what is in the heart, and finally rebellion acts out. Currently, she will want you to take blame for everything that went wrong in the MR.....including her A. It will be a big mistake if you agree. If there was ever a time you stand up for yourself, it is now. Do not give in or back down, thinking it will work out. It's only enabling her wayward mindset.

Keep in mind the part you played......which was the passive, pick your battles, keep the W happy, yes dear, beta male characteristics. The more a man acts like another female, the less sexual attraction his W will feel for him. That's why I get all up in the air when men start talking about losing their best friend (their wife). She has other women who can be her best friends. The H should not be her BFF. His position (and her position) are uniquely established and designed by God to be loyal, intimate, sexual mates for a lifetime. They are more than partners. They are more than friends. They are lovers who are bonded together as one body. They have responsibilities in maintaining a loving and caring life together.....and to put it above all others. It takes a lot of effort to keep the flirtiness, playfulness, and sexiness in a lifelong MR. It takes a lot of effort to keep interested in what each other is doing, and to find a common activity you both really love doing together. It gets to be harder to find time to just be alone together and really pay attention to each other's emotional needs. If it stops, it won't be long until their daily lives and the sex becomes routine and dull.......and sex will probably taper off. They become more like roommates and learn to just "settle". Then if one spouse decides they can't live that way any longer and leaves......the left behind spouse will say s/he lost their best friend. What? Best friend! S/he needs to go back and review what a MR is suppose to be. Acting like a best friend, instead of a lover, is what got them into the mess in the first place. Calling your spouse your best friend is a demotion, IMHO. There is only one person who can qualify as your spouse.....and you're going to demote him/her to a friend's position? Anyway.....I'm getting away from my subject.

The most important thing needed is her willingness to do the necessary work. If she cooperates, then these other things will come........if her heart is right. As long as her heart is resentful and selfish......then those feelings won't come b/c you just can't have a loving, happy MR with resentment, selfishness, and disrespect in the heart.

And how will I know if she gains this willingness? She will say so?

It would be wonderful if she spoke up and said she was willing to do whatever work was necessary to save the MR. If you were to tell her how she had to stop bossing you around, expecting you to cater to her, stop interrogating you, drop the self entitlement, start showing you respect as her H and as a man.........she might she'll try or she's willing....IDK. Somehow, I don't think she's going to make it that easy. Even if she agrees to do whatever you may list as stipulations to reconciling......for her to actually "do it", is another matter. Lip service isn't worth a pinch of salt if there is no action to follow.

I kind of regret saying that willingness was more important than remorse and commitment, b/c I think it confused you. Maybe it confused someone reading it, I hope not. Anyway, let me try to explain better. When I was a WW and had joined the board looking for someone to help me decide what to do, I finally made the decision to "do the right thing" and end my affair and stay in my M. I was not remorseful. In all the things different ones said to me, trying to get me to end the A and give my M another chance, there was one question I was asked that stood above all the others. "Sandi, for now, can you just make the choice to do the right thing"? In other words, they weren't telling me what they thought the right thing was. They weren't telling me how I should feel about anything. They said to do what I believed was the "right" thing to do. Well, that had hit me hard, b/c basically, that is who I am. I am a "Thou shalt, and Thou shalt not" type of person. (I realize how that sounds, considering I was in an A at the time). I knew I had to get back to that person again. But at that moment, I was so emotionally low and so tired that it was so difficult to find enough willingness in me to just get to the first level of willingness. That's pretty low! I strictly made my decision based on it being the morally & spiritually right thing to do. And let me tell you, I felt as if I had just sacrificed my life. I had no hope, no positive feelings, and certainly no excitement! I was so depressed in the following days that my adult D called a friend who was a RN, and was told to take me to the doctor immediately.

The first thing I did was end the A. The feelings of remorse did not come for almost two years. It's a long story and I won't take the time to explain why it took that long. I'll just say that my H should have required much, much more from me than I gave those first two years. However, he sat back and let me do pretty much whatever I wanted.......as long as he knew I wasn't contacting the other man. I was transparent (not that he asked, b/c he wasn't the one here getting the tools), and I learned that much from the board. delve ally worked on showing outward respect to him. Eventually, I began to feel the respect I was showing. I worked on my heart.......which is why it probably took nearly two years. Just b/c I had made the decision to stay in the M did not mean all my waywardness went out the window! No sir! Plus, with waywardness, there is a lot of stubborn pride. Some people call it false pride. It's bad. It's what keeps a person from apologizing to the one they've hurt. And if you already blamed your H for you having an affair in the first place.......you aren't going to be very quick to offer a sincere apology. So, anyway, I was coming home from work every day and hitting the DB board. I would stay here until I couldn't keep my eyes open and then hit the bed. Get up and do it all over the next day. It was hard, b/c there's not a lot of advice on the board for waywards. Oh yeah, a lot of H's want to tell a WW the same stuff he wishes his W would do.....but they didn't have a clue as to the mindset of a wayward. So, we learned together. Since my H wouldn't talk, I learned more how he probably felt by listening to the LBH's on the board. That had a lot to do with softening my heart. I also had some terrific mentors, and at that time, we could contact each other privately. So it helped a lot.

Sorry.....I didn't mean to get off into all of that ^^^^^^^^!

Anyway, I never want to imply that remorse is not important. If it doesn't happen, I am not sure if the WW ever has much compassion for her hurt H. I mean, I just don't know. What's to prevent her ongoing justifications and blaming him for her actions, rather than taking full responsibility? You see, I think there is a difference in regretting something you did......from being deeply sorry for doing it. When you are so sorry that you hurt your spouse in such a shameful & disgraceful manner that your heart feels as if it's breaking......that describes remorse, IMHO. There is no sense of self-entitlement, whatsoever. There is no haughty attitude. There is no anger, resentment, or bitterness. There is no pointing a finger at him and accusing or blaming. There is no scorekeeping. There is no thoughts of how she felt then or feels now. There is only concern for the betrayed and terribly hurt spouse. The cold, hard heart has finally softened. The remorseful WW doesn't have arrogant expectations! She doesn't lay down the rules for what she needs from her H! At least, not at that point in time. If truly remorseful, she only prays that someday he can forgive her. Hopefully, these feelings will lead to full repentance (which means turning away from what you were doing). IMHO, it's that remorse and repentance that really humbles the heart and makes it possible for the WW to start replacing those negative emotions for positive thoughts and feelings for her H and their MR. It is like growth. It doesn't happen all at one time. You see, a lot of LBH's don't realize that the WW has a tremdous amount of heart surgery that must be done, and then she has to go through the rehabilitation....so to speak. She has to get her heart & attitude right, and then follow through with the right actions.

Since only God can see the heart of man, we only have the outward signs to observe. So, here is what you look for if she is genuine about wanting to save the MR. Her attitude, words and actions are paralleled. They match. She isn't showing a bad attitude. She isn't saying one thing but acting quite another way. They all match.

Sorry for writing a book. No telling what all has been posted while I was rattling.

Very informative post, I'm glad you wrote a book. Thank you.

[sandi2]

To steal a line from MWD, we can always get divorced. Committing to give it our best shot doesn't have to mean we are trapped as prisoners in an unhappy MR forever.

I think this would be an excellent response if she starts talking about not "feeling it" and being concerned she is not "connected" to you. Just save it, b/c you'll probably have an opportunity to use whenever she decides to start talking and giving excuses for not wanting to go all in a 100%.

As I've said, we could discuss scenarios all week and wouldn't hit it just perfectly. I don't think you should grab her by the hair and say, "Now listen up, woman.....cause I'm about to lay down a boundary"! You might as well declare war without another word. Can't you just tell her you need to have a talk. Look at her and say, "(inset W's name) I have decided that I will not stay in a marriage where I am disrespected in any form or fashion". Is that so bad? Then if you want to cut out that additional stuff I had added, and go on to the next and say, "I will not stay in a MR with private and/or inappropriate friendships and/or affair". I do suggest you add...... "You have betrayed my trust, and you brought OM into our M. So, now we either go forward committed to being faithful, or we end the M now. If there is to be a M, then there can be no more private/secret texting. If you are not willing to be transparent in our M, then say so now". If you have a better way of saying it, that's fine. It has to be your message. I'm just trying to give you an idea how to show strength and deciviness, instead of a pushover.

I can see her saying things like "IDK if we just don't have a connection and aren't meant for each other, or if I just refuse to let it in." Or "Maybe I'm just too damaged. If I really had true love to offer, it wouldn't be so hard." "You don't deserve to let my inability to be happy prevent you from a happy life." "No one else should be dragged down by my repeated cycle to self-sabotage everything good in my life." I'm making this up, but you get the idea...a bunch of self-focused musings, feeling sorry for herself, saying she has issues but they can't be fixed. She could very well suffer from depression or some other mental health issue, but she refuses to get help due to fear for her career. For this same reason, I'm worried she will be resistant to counseling.

A lot of this is stuff WW's use as manipulation tools, or some self-pity b.s. No, don't offer solutions. I see nice guys doing that every time their WW pulls this trick. She knows he'll do it, and that's why she does it. I know, it's crazy.....and don't ask me to explain why, b/c I can't. But I can tell you what to do. Nothing! It's her decision to be willing or not.....but you didn't ask for a bunch of excuses. It's not your job to convince your wayward spouse. Now is the time to break that old dynamic and it will stop when you stop trying to persuade her.

Seriously, if she has any maturity whatsoever, she should expect to at least get talking from you!

I just meant she seems emotionally Immature, to me, and I hope she will realize she's not out of the woods so easily. You will be talking to her about the situation.

I will resist temptation to be nice and chatty and be ultra cool, calm. You are saying she will expect me to talk? So the calmness will make her nervous, right?

I believe it will. You not talking will make her nervous. Unless you have the habit of sulking when she's hurt your feelings.

This will be the hardest thing!! No more melty-cheesy 44. I will not offer any consolation if she cries. It helps to think of it as manipulation, even if she is being sincere.

My H was a nice guy, too. But if I was crying b/c he had to say something stern, he would not comfort me. If I bawled all day, he would not try to console me. It's a good thing he didn't, b/c I would have used it like a tool. I don't think I am the manipulating type......but I believe all females have the ability to manipulate males. Just watch any three year old little girl with her daddy, grandpa, uncle, etc. And, that's one reason little girls can't con mommy as easily as daddy.

I will just move forward with the boundaries talk. I guess this will sort of be assuming she wants to keep our relationship? If she doesn't, she will say so? This kind of goes back to my original question of which comes first...

Assuming she has not plainly said she wanted a D. If she has not waited to discuss things and goes straight for "I want a D".......then use what I suggested.

She might not feel totally convicted, but I think (hope) if I make her choose all or nothing, she will choose all.

At the moment, you need willingness from her. Don't tell her that you don't need to see remorse, or conviction.......I'm just explaining this to you.

My main concern is if she says she has to think it over. Unless you can be strong enough to hold her feet to the fire in the confrontation, I'm a little worried you'll get stuck in separate bedrooms. IMHO, if she says she has to think about it, that would be a good place to use the quote from MWD. In fact, you could use any quotes from her.

If she commits to giving it her best shot, then there is no reason for her to sleep in the other room. I know why she may want to, but you don't have to have sex with her just b/x she's in the same bed. Right? I said.....right?

I feel this would be her biggest hesitation--to know she can't promise her feelings will return or whatever other [insert woe is me problem here], and be afraid she will never get another chance to escape (remember, I used to be the guy she knew would never leave).

You can tell her, if you want, that you are not asking her to promise feelings. You are asking if she will commit to giving it her best shot.

I will be waiting anxiously to hear how things go.

[44tries]

Okay, here is my big update...been a long day.

It didn't go as well as I'd hoped. As I kind of expected, she didn't initiate the conversation. I let her settle in and eat and then I initiated, leading with the boundary talk. That went over fine and she mostly agreed. She cried and said she knew she was a "bully" (her words). She agreed I was right to ask for no further disrespect and that it can't continue. Also, she had no problem with no private inappropriate relationships.

Frankly, it all went fine except for the part where it came to willingness. She couldn't tell me she wanted to go all in to try to save the MR. She said she felt like I was giving an ultimatum. She said she didn't know if things could be fixed. Yes, it sounds great to start fresh, but you can't just shove all the old stuff out the door. She is very afraid of going back to the same old cycle and being stuck in an unhappy MR. I made it clear the old MR was dead and I didn't want that back either. She just didn't get how we could build something new on top of rubble. She talked about how she didn't know if she could just get rid of all her resentment, she can't control her feelings.

I don't think she thinks it is possible to regain attraction and feelings. She cried and cried, went on about how she didn't know how to let go and was really struggling with the idea of divorce. I told her there were no promises or expectations, she just needed to be willing to try. I really don't understand why she can't do that. She claims she doesn't want to prolong a bad thing, but then says she struggles with divorce and wasn't rushing to go that route. She basically admitted that she doesn't want to lose my friendship and companionship. I told her I can't just give her the parts she wants and forget the rest. She said she feels she has lost all her independence and we had codependency issues and she doesn't even know who she is. She doesn't see a way to take a hard detour and get back from the wrong road we went down for so long (her words). She just feels something is missing. She craves intimacy and connection and doesn't see how it can be with me.

We talked for a long time and I'm probably forgetting some stuff. I tried not to do too much talking, explaining, or convincing. In regards to the bed issue, I actually foolishly thought it wouldn't be a big problem. She had even asked earlier if it was clean, I don't know why exactly. To answer your question Sandi, the reason she wouldn't sleep in it has nothing to do with sex. I'm not pushy about that at all. To be honest, I thought the main reason she left the bed originally was so she could text all night. But I guess I was wrong. She said she doesn't want to send me mixed signals by sleeping in it now. I also think she is hurt/mad that I have hogged it.

She was very exhausted by the end of the talk and I honestly started to regret having it at all (I know, it needed to happen). Unlike me, she hasn't had any alone time for three weeks. She said she needed to sleep and get some clarity. I told her I understood but I really didn't want to have to drag her into another conversation again if she was just going to try to avoid it. She didn't really leave me with a definitive answer. I made it clear that the way I see it is we get a D or we commit to trying. I don't even know what her option 3 looks like. She talked a little about needing time and space (but also about how she doesn't want me to leave because I'm all she has here), and how she knows we can't really do that under the same roof.

I feel very tired and don't know what to think. I'm disappointed I didn't get the answers I was looking for, and admittedly feel a little despondent. But I'm not devastated, which I'm taking as a positive that my growth and detachment have been genuine. I can't force her to try. I'm glad she didn't definitively say no, but it's a very frustrating impasse where she just doesn't "feel" like it. I thought I understood being willing without having the feelings yet, but now I see the other side where if you don't feel like it, how can you be willing? IDK, like I said I'm tired. My brain can't think about it anymore tonight.

[Ste7e]

I got a very similar response from my WW
Hang in there 44

[sandi2]

Sorry it didn't end the way you had hoped. She may have been in contact with the OM. The last time you had talked to her over the phone, she seemed pretty desperate to hold on to you. Didn't you get that impression when she was telling you she loved you and needed you? Now she comes home and can't be willing to at least try? That sounds suspicious to me.

I didn't except her to jump with joy. I figured she would throw up the "no attraction" thing. But something seems a bit "off". It could be that she is going through withdrawals of OM/A. When a WW is going through withdrawals, she doesn't feel much anything else but depression.

Did she apology for the betrayal, the scretiveness, etc? Did she agree to be transparent?

I don't know if I buy the idea about why she doesn't want to share the bed. I suspect she's still texting OM. Even after being caught, the urge will pull at her to contact him b/c she is addicted.

I hope you told her you would not accept a "friendship" in place of the MR. From her actions, she is trying to stay in the same in-house separation status.

Did you agree with her about the co-dependent statement? Would she consider MC for co-dependent issues?

Did expound on knowing she was a bully?

Okay, well, I hope you will be able to rest and get a good night's sleep. Tomorrow is a new day.

[SteveLW]

44, my W said almost the exact same things on bomb day. Almost verbatim to what you typed.

Look, don't read too much into it. Remember, believe nothign she says and only half of what she does!

Look WWs have an illusion of a perfect life post-LBH. But I am telling you, as the reality of that life draws closer the illusion starts to fade. Your W has been through an emotional roller-coaster. OM is always new, fresh, without the problems that have cropped up with you over the years, and so she's put a lot of emotional investment into that "future".

WWs do not like to give up the illusion. Plus they have to go through an emotional grieving of OM. Further, they are usually angry at LBH for getting into that way of the illusion. And they also usually are more sorry for getting caught than they are for the actual betrayal.

44, you need to remember that WWs can change. Think about how in love she was with you when you got married. Somewhere along the line she changed to where she is now. She CAN change back. She may not want to right now but the work you do from this moment forward can help her in that change.

You are under the same roof, that is a start. I have a lot of thoughts on how to go about this myself, but as I am fond of saying, every sitch is different. You are under the tutelage of sandi, you can't go wrong with her advice.

But, I will give you a piece of advice that helped so much in my sitch: keep your conversation with her fun and light 97.5% of the time. In MC my wife mentioned that as we interacted in that way she had started to see herself staying in the MR. I took advice of another anti-divorce expert where I would call her from work in the late morning, almost everyday, and would tell her something about work, or that I heard on the radio, or something I read on my Google feed. Anything short, light and fun. Then I would say "Ok well just wanted to share that, talk to you later! Goodbye." And then hangup.

I honestly believe she started to look forward to those calls. She is a SAHM, and she doesn't get a lot of human interaction from 8am-3:30pm. Sometimes I'd squeeze another call in early afternoon too, but that was about once a week.

Anyway, that went a long way with her. Mainly because we had that kind of relationship when we were dating and early in our marriage. Think about something similar that you used to do and incorporate that.

Otherwise, continue to detach, 180, GAL and be the best 44 you can be.

Don't be to down, this conversation went pretty much to the script.

[Ste7e]

Hey Steve85 I am curious about the short friendly calls
I am in NC but want to do the short friendly thing for the same reasons you did but afraid that it is pursuing
Sorry dont want to hijack this helpful thread

[Davide]

Yeah. Ste7e, I was thinking the same exact thing. For the first 3 weeks of my separation I still sent upbeat or informational texts to my wife, but once I got on here I went NC and cut that off completely. How is that not seen as pursuing? Or are they just in another phase, way ahead of us?

[SteveLW]

Many here would call it pursuit. and it probably is strictly speaking. However, in my sitch I detected that reconnecting that fun side was something we needed. It was a bit of a gamble but was a gamble that paid off. Again every sitch is different, and that tactic may not work in other sitches.

[44tries]

Sorry it didn't end the way you had hoped. She may have been in contact with the OM. The last time you had talked to her over the phone, she seemed pretty desperate to hold on to you. Didn't you get that impression when she was telling you she loved you and needed you? Now she comes home and can't be willing to at least try? That sounds suspicious to me.

I didn't except her to jump with joy. I figured she would throw up the "no attraction" thing. But something seems a bit "off". It could be that she is going through withdrawals of OM/A. When a WW is going through withdrawals, she doesn't feel much anything else but depression.

I agree, Sandi. I didn't want to be too hopeful, but I will admit something just seems to not add up. I definitely got the impression she didn't want to lose me and needed me. I guess that part still rang true yesterday. She said she was afraid to lose me. She cried every time she thought about it. But she said I am the one that has been there for three years, and I think she is more just afraid to be alone. She just kept saying how she didn't want to back to the same cycle, over and over again. The part that really felt off to me was the total distance. It's hard to explain, but in the times I have talked to her in the past couple weeks where she seemed desperate to hold onto me, I felt a closeness with her. I could feel her reaching for me. Maybe it's just because it was in person this time, but yesterday it was like she was closed.

Did she apology for the betrayal, the scretiveness, etc? Did she agree to be transparent?

Not nearly like she should have. I got the impression she didn't want to rehash all the apologies she gave during the confrontation. She would rather just run away and hope I never brought it up again. She was very uncomfortable. She doesn't even like me to see her cry (lots of stubborn pride there I think). She said she has been cheated on before and knows how it feels (okay, not by your SPOUSE). And she said she thought maybe right now I say I can move past it, but it's a roller coaster and I might not feel that way going forward. She said it adds another major issue on top of all the others. But did she say how sorry this made her? No. She agreed if we were going to re-commit she would be transparent. But she also said she felt like I would always be looking over her shoulder, suspicious, etc.

I don't know if I buy the idea about why she doesn't want to share the bed. I suspect she's still texting OM. Even after being caught, the urge will pull at her to contact him b/c she is addicted.

You may very well be right, I have no idea. We didn't talk a lot about the A itself. I didn't ask her why she ended it. But I still haven't seen any reason to not believe her...yet. She said the reason it was so hard to go NC with me the past week was because I was the one she was talking to about everything and that checks out with the feeling I got that the stuff she would tell me, she would have been telling him if they were talking. She didn't text at all yesterday. But who knows. Like I said, I was a little surprised about the bed issue. She hates sleeping in the spare room. But I can see why she would think coming back to the bed would signal she is re-committing.

I hope you told her you would not accept a "friendship" in place of the MR. From her actions, she is trying to stay in the same in-house separation status.

I clearly told her if I was staying here I saw no point other than to work on our MR. I told her I didn't want separate rooms or limbo. I sort of got conflicted about the ultimatum issue since she brought it up herself, but I stood firm on my thoughts that I didn't want in-house separation. Really, she agreed. She doesn't want that either. But she was very confusing because she doesn't want me gone but doesn't want in-house separation but doesn't want to re-commit. I think the answer is she doesn't know/can't face what she wants.

Did you agree with her about the co-dependent statement? Would she consider MC for co-dependent issues?

Yes, I think we probably both have some degree of co-dependency. That word is a bit hard to define but I think of it as the opposite of detachment. I think her points about losing independence and individuality rang true. And my willingness to stay no matter what was obviously a problem. I did bring up counseling or really any way to try to work on it and her answer was always the same--we are buried so deep, we went the wrong way for so long, etc that I don't know that it can be fixed. The feelings will still be there (or not be there). She said this several times, she doesn't buy the willingness over feelings stuff. She said "We can't just say starting at 8am tomorrow morning, we'll go and work on fixing all our issues." That's how she sees it.

Did expound on knowing she was a bully?

Not really. She cried and got quiet for a long time. I had laid out the parts of the boundary statement where I said she can't feel I owe her services, or wait on her hand and foot, or feel like her employee. That's when she got silent, cried, and said she knew she was a bully. Then she agreed it couldn't continue. But no real expounding. At a different point, she did talk about her frustration and resentment about the fact she works and didn't feel I did enough with the house. She admitted after a while she stopped caring about my schoolwork and whatever else I did because I have so many projects and she doesn't know which ones I will actually follow through on. She just knows the ones with the house got neglected. She also said I had improved a lot, but the resentment had built.

I sort of feel like the conversation sent me back to square one. I think her heart is definitely not in the right place. And she felt pushed into talking about stuff she wasn't ready to talk about. But I don't want limbo, so IDK what the right answer is. I want to have patience. But I don't know where to draw the line. And I don't know when to give up.

[44tries]

44, my W said almost the exact same things on bomb day. Almost verbatim to what you typed.

Look, don't read too much into it. Remember, believe nothign she says and only half of what she does!

Look WWs have an illusion of a perfect life post-LBH. But I am telling you, as the reality of that life draws closer the illusion starts to fade. Your W has been through an emotional roller-coaster. OM is always new, fresh, without the problems that have cropped up with you over the years, and so she's put a lot of emotional investment into that "future".

WWs do not like to give up the illusion. Plus they have to go through an emotional grieving of OM. Further, they are usually angry at LBH for getting into that way of the illusion. And they also usually are more sorry for getting caught than they are for the actual betrayal.

44, you need to remember that WWs can change. Think about how in love she was with you when you got married. Somewhere along the line she changed to where she is now. She CAN change back. She may not want to right now but the work you do from this moment forward can help her in that change.

You are under the same roof, that is a start. I have a lot of thoughts on how to go about this myself, but as I am fond of saying, every sitch is different. You are under the tutelage of sandi, you can't go wrong with her advice.

But, I will give you a piece of advice that helped so much in my sitch: keep your conversation with her fun and light 97.5% of the time. In MC my wife mentioned that as we interacted in that way she had started to see herself staying in the MR. I took advice of another anti-divorce expert where I would call her from work in the late morning, almost everyday, and would tell her something about work, or that I heard on the radio, or something I read on my Google feed. Anything short, light and fun. Then I would say "Ok well just wanted to share that, talk to you later! Goodbye." And then hangup.

I honestly believe she started to look forward to those calls. She is a SAHM, and she doesn't get a lot of human interaction from 8am-3:30pm. Sometimes I'd squeeze another call in early afternoon too, but that was about once a week.

Anyway, that went a long way with her. Mainly because we had that kind of relationship when we were dating and early in our marriage. Think about something similar that you used to do and incorporate that.

Otherwise, continue to detach, 180, GAL and be the best 44 you can be.

Don't be to down, this conversation went pretty much to the script.

Thanks for this, Steve. It helped to know your W said all the same things on bomb day. Although it also makes me feel more like I got sent back to square one, since I thought we were past bomb day.

I know things can change and she already struggles with the reality of having a perfect life without me. That's the main reason she isn't charging ahead with divorce. I just don't know how to proceed because Sandi emphasized not wanting limbo, and of course I don't prefer that, but if she needs more time then what?

Your idea about keeping the conversation light and fun resonates. That's partly why I began regretting our whole talk. If I had gone that route, she would have been much warmer and wanted to engage, etc. But I think the talk had to happen. IDK, at this point I don't really know. But now I will back off. I don't like having those conversations any more than she does and clearly talking doesn't convince her of anything.

Thanks for your support, Steve.

[SteveLW]

sandi is the expert but i do think a period of limbo is usually necessary. As is often said, you didn't get to this point overnight and it won't get better overnight either. I was very anti limbo, even saying that it would be better to have your spouse drop the bomb and leave and file. But then anther poster pointed out that limbo is the gift of time.

So now I view limbo is that period of change from the state of heading toward D and moving into a new MR. Limbo is difficult but almost necessary. Especially considering that our Ws, whether we like it or not, will go through withdrawal from OM. Also difficult to watch, but also necessary.

[sandi2]

It's been several years now, so I have to think back about how I felt when the board members were talking to me about staying in my M. I understand your W's feelings. But you two have only been together three years, and she is sounding as if there is no coming back b/c things got too deep? That is immature and unrealistic thinking about marriage, IMHO. What did she think M was......a fairy tale where the couple never had a problem? There is no reason on earth you two can't come back from this. She is just afraid she won't experience the butterflies when you walk into the room. I have news for her. As long as she sits and waits for you to make her feel butterflies.......it won't happen. She has to throw herself into the relationship to get the feelings. She may never feel like she did when you first M, IDK. I actually had better times, more romantic times down the road, than we had our first couple of years..... b/c I leaned in order to experience the thrills I had to encourage it and be an active "giving" partner. I also learned that was what people meant when they said you had to "work" at it. A MR must have nourishment, to keep the love alive.

She doesn't seem mature enough to handle the fact she is employed while you are earning your degree. She wants to see evidence where you have worked at home, while she was on her job. Some women just don't do well being the breadwinner. They go home and start hammering the H b/c he did not do enough around the house .....according to the W's expectations. When you described all you did, it sounded like a lot.......but if I heard her side, it would probably be a different story. You know if you are doing enough, or not. You have to have time for your classes..

Give her a few days to go at her own speed and do her own thing. Just be cautious, b/c you will want to do something to make her feel better, and you'll fall back into waiting on her. If she is right about the house, then maybe you really aren't doing as much as you thought.......or else the dogs are way too messy (which this can be true). As for your "projects", I still don't understand why that bothers her, or why she feels you have to give her an update on how you are coming along with it. At first, I thought it went along with all the other stuff of her running a tight ship, but IDK. If you leave an unfinished mess sitting around, it probably is a sore spot with her.

I use to say I had never seen a woman give up a good H b/c he didn't do enough housework. With this younger generation of W's who have such a sense of entitlement.......I don't know if that any longer the case. I just always have suspicions when a woman can't find anything to complain about, other than he doesn't do enough around the house! Maybe it's b/c "she" is the real problem......not him.

Anyway, just take a day at a time. Try to have an easy week. Don't do anything to pressure her emotionally. Don't bring up the R talk again, unless she initiates. Just try to be relaxed and have a comfortable atmosphere at home.

She got caught, called out, and she feels guilty. She's is having to deal with the fallout of her behavior. She is still wayward. It doesn't change overnight. As long as she clings to those old resentments, she is blocking off any feelings of being in love. Her emotions are urging her to rebel against commiting to the MR. I hope she will realize that if you can forgive her betrayal and deception, she should be able to forgive you for whatever she holds against you. Apparently, she hasn't figured that out yet.

[44tries]

sandi is the expert but i do think a period of limbo is usually necessary. As is often said, you didn't get to this point overnight and it won't get better overnight either. I was very anti limbo, even saying that it would be better to have your spouse drop the bomb and leave and file. But then anther poster pointed out that limbo is the gift of time.

So now I view limbo is that period of change from the state of heading toward D and moving into a new MR. Limbo is difficult but almost necessary. Especially considering that our Ws, whether we like it or not, will go through withdrawal from OM. Also difficult to watch, but also necessary.

I completely agree, Steve. I am okay with limbo. Yes, it is frustrating and that awful feeling of uncertainty lingering over my head 24/7 is no fun. But I'm a patient man. I don't know why I have the feeling that I shouldn't accept limbo after spending so much time here. It makes me feel I am doing something "wrong" or being used. I don't know if that makes any sense.

[44tries]

It's been several years now, so I have to think back about how I felt when the board members were talking to me about staying in my M. I understand your W's feelings. But you two have only been together three years, and she is sounding as if there is no coming back b/c things got too deep? That is immature and unrealistic thinking about marriage, IMHO. What did she think M was......a fairy tale where the couple never had a problem? There is no reason on earth you two can't come back from this. She is just afraid she won't experience the butterflies when you walk into the room. I have news for her. As long as she sits and waits for you to make her feel butterflies.......it won't happen. She has to throw herself into the relationship to get the feelings. She may never feel like she did when you first M, IDK. I actually had better times, more romantic times down the road, than we had our first couple of years..... b/c I leaned in order to experience the thrills I had to encourage it and be an active "giving" partner. I also learned that was what people meant when they said you had to "work" at it. A MR must have nourishment, to keep the love alive.

Thank you, Sandi, this was encouraging. I was starting to have doubts and wonder if she was right that there was no coming back. I agree with you completely about the idealism I think she has. Ironically, she tried to tell me I was idealistic about being able to build something new and better. I don't think she thinks MR is something where you never have a problem. She said something like "it's one thing if you have a problem, recover, and have another problem, etc. But it feels like we have just had one prolonged problem all along." That was her reasoning for feeling the problem is unfixable; because it wasn't isolated enough. I understand the need to work and nourish, and regret I didn't understand it sooner. But she needs to understand it and I can't convince her or show her otherwise.

She doesn't seem mature enough to handle the fact she is employed while you are earning your degree. She wants to see evidence where you have worked at home, while she was on her job. Some women just don't do well being the breadwinner. They go home and start hammering the H b/c he did not do enough around the house .....according to the W's expectations. When you described all you did, it sounded like a lot.......but if I heard her side, it would probably be a different story. You know if you are doing enough, or not. You have to have time for your classes..

I do a lot. But I will be the first to admit I didn't at first. It was definitely an adjustment for me. She acknowledges I have stepped up and she doesn't come home wondering about what I did, etc. But again, she sort of said too little, too late. It's not like I made the change a month ago. I started doing more and more after the first few months we lived here because I recognized it was a big problem.

Give her a few days to go at her own speed and do her own thing. Just be cautious, b/c you will want to do something to make her feel better, and you'll fall back into waiting on her. If she is right about the house, then maybe you really aren't doing as much as you thought.......or else the dogs are way too messy (which this can be true). As for your "projects", I still don't understand why that bothers her, or why she feels you have to give her an update on how you are coming along with it. At first, I thought it went along with all the other stuff of her running a tight ship, but IDK. If you leave an unfinished mess sitting around, it probably is a sore spot with her.

I will resist waiting on her. She hasn't been asking for me things today and seems to be aware. I think part of that is feeling like she can't ask things of me since she doesn't want to work on the MR. She doesn't want to feel like she owes me anything, in other words. I will try and reflect on the house issue. Maybe I can do more. But she is sort of crazy about it. I spent a lot of time cleaning before she came home and today she made a comment about not knowing what she wanted to do, and all she could think about was cleaning the house. We were standing in a spotless kitchen. Yes, we have three large dogs and there is always dog hair. But she is never satisfied with the state of the house, that is a fact. We ended up spending two hours today disassembling every fan we own and cleaning it. On the project issue, it's nothing to do with leaving a mess. It's things like the fact I like to keep a million tabs open on my computer. MY computer, not hers. But she hates it. I have a lot of interests and fully admit I have a tendency to get obsessed with something and not always follow through. That's why she said she stopped taking interest. But with my degree, I'm not sure if she thinks I am not actually going to finish it or what. Certainly I have never given up or not accomplished something as major as that.

I use to say I had never seen a woman give up a good H b/c he didn't do enough housework. With this younger generation of W's who have such a sense of entitlement.......I don't know if that any longer the case. I just always have suspicions when a woman can't find anything to complain about, other than he doesn't do enough around the house! Maybe it's b/c "she" is the real problem......not him.

I will think about this. She did emphasize a particular frustration about feeling like she often comes home from work and can't relax because there is dog hair on the couch or the sheets are in the dryer and I try to put them on before bed and it's too late. I don't know if she expects a chocolate on her pillow or if I am failing. It is something I am aware of and for a long time I have DAILY vacuumed the couch and even, specifically, her pillow. IDK, it's frustrating. I know I used to be a slob (changed when we moved in together). I know I don't always have the best time management skills. But I have consistently improved. Maybe I still have a long way to go.

Anyway, just take a day at a time. Try to have an easy week. Don't do anything to pressure her emotionally. Don't bring up the R talk again, unless she initiates. Just try to be relaxed and have a comfortable atmosphere at home.

This is what I am doing. Today she brought her pillow into the bedroom and we laid in the bed and talked for over three hours about all kind of things. A lot about her family and childhood. At the end, she talked about wanting to go back to her hometown when it's time to move back and collect some personal mementos like sports trophies. She said, "maybe you can come with me. And we can finally go to [a pizza place she always raves about from the past]." I'm thoroughly placing that one in the "they will be confusing" box.

She got caught, called out, and she feels guilty. She's is having to deal with the fallout of her behavior. She is still wayward. It doesn't change overnight. As long as she clings to those old resentments, she is blocking off any feelings of being in love. Her emotions are urging her to rebel against commiting to the MR. I hope she will realize that if you can forgive her betrayal and deception, she should be able to forgive you for whatever she holds against you. Apparently, she hasn't figured that out yet.

I know. I am okay waiting. I will continue to make sure I don't start waiting on her. I just wish there was something I could do to help her let go of the resentment. But I know it's not something I can control.

[sandi2]

We ended up spending two hours today disassembling every fan we own and cleaning it. On the project issue, it's nothing to do with leaving a mess. It's things like the fact I like to keep a million tabs open on my computer. MY computer, not hers. But she hates it. I have a lot of interests and fully admit I have a tendency to get obsessed with something and not always follow through. That's why she said she stopped taking interest.

She never commented about the house being clean? Sound as if she had to look hard to find something to make you do! Seems she enjoys punishing you, IMHO. Why did you engage? If she wants to clean fans, leave her with it.

In all fairness to her, three large dogs in a house is a lot of hair. If these are considered to be your dogs, then I could see that as an ongoing source of resentment for her.

Her laying on your bed and talking, is good........as long she wasn't complaining about you, or her usual b.s. Like I said, a day at a time.

[Mowgli]

44,

I think you and I are the same person sometimes. your struggles are the same ones I face, both in M and in daily life.

look up the term "hyper-focus," and see if some of the things they say match up with you.

Do you absorb yourself in certain things and try to learn everything about them as fast as possible?

Do you have a tough time using your time on your school work and finish everything under a "time crunch?" Almost like you NEED the pressure to get the work done?

Ever get stuck in your head, or in a book or article, and look up at the clock and a literal hour has passed?


For the record, my W had the same problems with me that your W is saying she has with you.

The first real fight we had in our R was about me eating a PB&J on her bed and getting crumbs on her comforter. We're talking like three crumbs and she f-ing lost it!

Same issues as you're having when we first got M, too. I was working on my Master's and she was working. I was home with my oldest, who was very active at that time, and trying to get my weekly assignments done. It was all I could do to get dishes done during the day, and she'd come home and focus on anything I didn't do.

I almost left her at one point as things got really bad for a while. She just couldn't find happiness, was angry all the time and it was sucking the life out of me.

We got past it, and things were good for 5 years until my second kid came along, then things went down hill.

W had this really bad habit of pointing out all the things that wouldn't get done, and that just killed me on the inside because I really felt like I was doing the best i could. The kicker with her, though, was that she wasn't taking care of her chores, either, but I never said anything to her about it because it wasn't something that mattered to me.

I would say that not speaking up about the hypocrisy really put us on an uneven playing field.

During her A (which I didn't know about), One of the things I tried to do early on was take care of all the household chores, which was unrealistic. I know lots of LBSs try this approach.

After two months, I figured out that this was the wrong thing to do and so part of my detachment process was to sit W down and define and split household chores evenly.

Even now, we maintain these household boundaries, and yes, my household chores are a boundary for me. We've had it out over instances where she hasn't felt like i've done my chores "in a timely fashion." They are my chores and my responsibilities; I get mad if she tries to do them. She knows what she is responsible for and what my jobs are. It's been really healthy, too! I think having the list has made our M better because then she can't say thing like "I'm doing X more work than you," because the roles are clearly defined. It helps us both because she doesn't feel wholly responsible for the house, and I know exactly what my jobs are, so I can see that they need to be done and do them (I'm not one that goes looking for extra cleaning!).

I have no clue if any of this is helpful, but I thought I'd share.

[sandi2]

Same issues as you're having when we first got M, too. I was working on my Master's and she was working. I was home with my oldest, who was very active at that time, and trying to get my weekly assignments done. It was all I could do to get dishes done during the day, and she'd come home and focus on anything I didn't do.

44, does your W really know how much you have to do to stay on track with your assignments and tests? Sometimes I get the idea she thinks you simply goof off all day, and that's why she resents it. Does she ever look at your assignments, etc?

Also, when she has a day off, do you put in your daily time toward your studies, or do you take that time off while she is home? I just wondered if she actually sees you working on the degree, or if it's all done while she's gone. if that makes sense.

[44tries]

She never commented about the house being clean? Sound as if she had to look hard to find something to make you do! Seems she enjoys punishing you, IMHO. Why did you engage? If she wants to clean fans, leave her with it.

She asked if it was clean on the way home from the airport and I said yes. She didn't complain about it being messy. A lot of times she will say the house looks good; this time she didn't say a whole lot, but I don't think she thought it was a problem. It was just odd that the next day she commented how all she could think about was cleaning. But she almost has OCD about it and she acknowledges it. She says small things just get stuck in her mind and she is stressed until they are taken care of. Anyway, she didn't tell me to clean the fans. We were just sitting in bed talking and the topic came up and we decided to clean them together. But it's true it shows her hyper attentiveness to the cleanliness of the house. If it isn't perfect she is stressed and bothered.

In all fairness to her, three large dogs in a house is a lot of hair. If these are considered to be your dogs, then I could see that as an ongoing source of resentment for her.

They are not my dogs. They are our dogs, but if you get technical I brought one and she brought two. One of them she got while we were dating so I've known him his whole life and he is sort of shared. But if we split, it's clear where the dogs go and only one is mine (admittedly he is the hairiest). Our dogs are our kids, and they are treated as such. We both love them all of them equally deeply. In fact, she has talked about how she is having a very difficult time thinking about losing my dog. But it does sort of amaze me how little tolerance she has for dog hair despite her love for dogs. I don't like it either, but it is a huge, daily battle that is just reality with the dogs we have. It will never be completely hair free and you could kill yourself trying. In general, though, I think I have said before, no one comes to our house without commenting how clean it is. It's cleaner than anyone I know besides my very elderly grandma who lives alone and has a cleaning service.

Her laying on your bed and talking, is good........as long she wasn't complaining about you, or her usual b.s. Like I said, a day at a time.

No, no complaining really the past few days. Everything has been nice and friendly and relatively stress-free except for the two R talks, one of which occurred again today unintentionally. The bed situation has become slightly awkward because she has made statements about not understanding my hogging of the bed and being very uncomfortable in the other room. It's also the sort of the physical manifestation of the divide between us. Anyway, she was really tired today and went to take a nap in the bed and was talking about how comfortable it was. I tried to address the problem and it became a full on discussion about the same stuff. She can't choose door 1 or door 2. She doesn't "feel" like trying. She feels I am applying pressure and pushing my "angle". She doesn't think there is a way to try without feeling guilt or obligation. Then, some random super specific stuff: She doesn't have fun doing projects with me. I shut her down and make her feel like I'll listen to her ideas but always think mine are better. If I do give her the reigns, I just ask what to do next like a child. I'm not spontaneous enough and she feels she has lost all her motivation to do anything. She said I take forever and worry about things like brushing my teeth first thing or spend too long looking at my iPad before getting out of bed. We can never go anywhere straight away.

I didn't really want to get into another huge R talk because the last one didn't go so well. Admittedly, it became a lot more extensive than I wanted but eventually I tried to ease out of it and said I was also really tired. She said well you should also lay down and take a nap. So I did. She got up to go the bathroom and came back and crawled in the bed and put her arms around me. We napped for a couple hours and cuddled the whole time. After she just had this whole spiel about not wanting to send me mixed signals or give me false hope!

We made dinner together (went all out for a our favorite meal) and watched TV. Everything was good, we shared a wine glass and joked around. Then she talked about needing to finish washing the bedding for her room and getting ready for work tomorrow. I asked her what she needed help with (not sure if I shouldn't do that? She didn't ask). Then she gets in the shower with me! Nothing sexual or anything like that, but tell me it isn't strange she won't sleep in the same bed but we can share a shower??

She still wants to take a trip together to visit a friend and go to a music festival with her co-worker. I also have a feeling she is going to bring up the workout class when I go tomorrow (it hasn't come up again, should I still tell her no if she asks to join?) Still no sign she has any contact with OM. She hasn't touched her phone much at all since she's been home. But I have to admit the separate sleeping thing has made me slightly suspicious; maybe it's just a big deal symbolically for her and she isn't ready to go there. IDK.

44, does your W really know how much you have to do to stay on track with your assignments and tests? Sometimes I get the idea she thinks you simply goof off all day, and that's why she resents it. Does she ever look at your assignments, etc?

Also, when she has a day off, do you put in your daily time toward your studies, or do you take that time off while she is home? I just wondered if she actually sees you working on the degree, or if it's all done while she's gone. if that makes sense.

You are exactly right to get that idea because it's true. She never looks at my assignments. She barely even knows what I'm studying! I brought this up during the first R talk and that's when she admitted she had stopped taking much interest because she felt she couldn't keep up with all my latest stuff (again, I have been studying the same thing this entire time, it's not like I'm jumping all over the place). She probably assumes I am mostly distracted, doing who knows what, and wasting time. Because time management isn't my strong suit, as I've said, and she knows that. But I've never thought to "prove" it to her or show her my work since she isn't interested.

She doesn't see me do much. Most of the time, on her days off, I give her my attention and we do things together. I can mostly avoid studying on the weekends. Occasionally, there are deadlines or things I can't avoid, especially if she has a random weekday off. She has kept the dogs quiet while I take a final exam and stuff like that before. But it isn't 'typical'.

[44tries]

44,

I think you and I are the same person sometimes. your struggles are the same ones I face, both in M and in daily life.

look up the term "hyper-focus," and see if some of the things they say match up with you.

Do you absorb yourself in certain things and try to learn everything about them as fast as possible?

Do you have a tough time using your time on your school work and finish everything under a "time crunch?" Almost like you NEED the pressure to get the work done?

Ever get stuck in your head, or in a book or article, and look up at the clock and a literal hour has passed?

Yes, this is so me!! I am an 'all or nothing' type person and a procrastinator. I can read about all sorts of things for hours and hours. I am always researching. It always frustrated me because my W talks about how I spend too much time on electronics. If we're watching TV or in bed, she hates if I'm on my phone. But the problem is she is too! And she texts a lot. Even before the A stuff, she texts probably 10x more than I do. When I'm on my phone, I'm probably reading an article or balancing the budget. I feel like texting other people would be a lot more disrespectful, but perhaps I'm being narrow-minded.

For the record, my W had the same problems with me that your W is saying she has with you.

The first real fight we had in our R was about me eating a PB&J on her bed and getting crumbs on her comforter. We're talking like three crumbs and she f-ing lost it!

Same issues as you're having when we first got M, too. I was working on my Master's and she was working. I was home with my oldest, who was very active at that time, and trying to get my weekly assignments done. It was all I could do to get dishes done during the day, and she'd come home and focus on anything I didn't do.

I can definitely relate to this!

I almost left her at one point as things got really bad for a while. She just couldn't find happiness, was angry all the time and it was sucking the life out of me.

And this! Especially with my W being gone, it was almost like a lifted weight. Now that she's back, it's so much harder to get anything done or not feel dragged down by her lack of motivation/enthusiasm. She is just always unhappy, tired, doesn't even know what to do with herself and watches way too much TV. And she says I am the one who isn't fun! It is so draining to always worry and wonder why is miserable and try to carry both of us over the finish line to meet goals.

We got past it, and things were good for 5 years until my second kid came along, then things went down hill.

W had this really bad habit of pointing out all the things that wouldn't get done, and that just killed me on the inside because I really felt like I was doing the best i could. The kicker with her, though, was that she wasn't taking care of her chores, either, but I never said anything to her about it because it wasn't something that mattered to me.

I know the exact feeling. Nothing I can do is enough. It's not that she never says she appreciates what I do or tells me the house looks good etc. She does. But it's the feeling that at the end of the day, she still isn't satisfied. It's still an "issue". It HAS gotten a lot better as I've stepped up more, and she doesn't cite it as a major problem like she used to. But she doesn't seem any happier (which at one point she said she would be if it were to improve).

I would say that not speaking up about the hypocrisy really put us on an uneven playing field.

During her A (which I didn't know about), One of the things I tried to do early on was take care of all the household chores, which was unrealistic. I know lots of LBSs try this approach.

After two months, I figured out that this was the wrong thing to do and so part of my detachment process was to sit W down and define and split household chores evenly.

Even now, we maintain these household boundaries, and yes, my household chores are a boundary for me. We've had it out over instances where she hasn't felt like i've done my chores "in a timely fashion." They are my chores and my responsibilities; I get mad if she tries to do them. She knows what she is responsible for and what my jobs are. It's been really healthy, too! I think having the list has made our M better because then she can't say thing like "I'm doing X more work than you," because the roles are clearly defined. It helps us both because she doesn't feel wholly responsible for the house, and I know exactly what my jobs are, so I can see that they need to be done and do them (I'm not one that goes looking for extra cleaning!).

I have no clue if any of this is helpful, but I thought I'd share.

This is really good feedback. I think I am going to try to set some more clear guidelines and agree on set responsibilities with her. Especially now that I am trying hard not to cater to her or over do it, it will really help establish expectations and boundaries, just like you said. Maybe having a more defined idea of what she expects of me would help her resentment too. Thanks so much for sharing, Mowgli! Sure seems like we share a lot of the same struggles.

[Ste7e]

I had the exact same phone tv time dilemma
Frustrating is an understatement

[Zues126]

She still wants to take a trip together to visit a friend and go to a music festival with her co-worker. I also have a feeling she is going to bring up the workout class when I go tomorrow (it hasn't come up again, should I still tell her no if she asks to join?)

44, I'm a bit blurry on some of the nuances of the level of your WW's infidelity. Was it emotional, physical, ongoing, one time? Remind me.

And when she returned, it sounded like she understood that transparency would be needed if she were to recommit to the M, but she wasn't ready to do that, correct?

If I'm correct that she betrayed your trust with another man and has since apologized but not recommitted to the M or agreed to any type of transparency then you need to be very careful. If you read my first post about returning WWs then you should have also read my post about the horror of 'maybe'.

If you are to remain in limbo then you can't assume that you're working towards a point when WW can recommit to the M. I mean of course that's what you want and you can do your part to allow that to be possible. But it's not in your control. And that may not be how it plays out. WW could be in a continued affair. She might want things calm and consequence free at home while lining up other dates to explore greener grass. Who knows? But it would be very foolish to assume that since she 'said' she was 'sorry' that she feels a deep enough remorse to resist other men, particularly when she's already made it clear that you two aren't in a committed relationship together.

So what I'm asking is if you knew she was lying to you and cheating on you what would you be comfortable with?

Would you allow her to shower with you? Go to the gym with you? Cuddle with you?

I'm not telling you that you shouldn't do these things. But if the answer is 'heck no, I wouldn't be this close to someone that is texting nude pics to someone else' then I think you're exposing yourself emotionally to someone that has hurt you once and hasn't given much reason to think it won't happen again.

I really think the best answer is to remain detached, GAL like crazy, be the H only a fool would leave, and to maintain the boundaries you would if you knew she was cheating. If she likes you and doesn't like those boundaries then she has some decisions to make. But to think that if you don't have any boundaries that maybe someday she'll respect them seems super backwards to me.

Myself, I wouldn't remain with someone that had cheated and not recommitted. I would distance myself and then explain to her that as much as I wanted the M to work she had opted out of the M and that 'not sure' was as far from a commitment as 'I want a divorce', and that I deserved a committed partner that was willing to fight for the M and to regain my trust. Since she can't provide that I am going to be taking steps towards physical separation and will be filing for divorce. This wouldn't be a bluff, I wouldn't be willing to live with that. If she changes her tune I'd listen to what she had to say, but if she blames me for ruining any chances I'd keep walking all the way to the court because that is f'd up.

But that's just me NOW. Right after BD I wouldn't have had the spine to do that. Either way though, if you intend to continue to live in limbo with an uncommitted WW I think you need to open your eyes to the reality of where you're at which is *NOT* the illusion she is giving you to keep you sated.

Artista, Sandi, what are your thoughts? I think in house separation is super tough because it's so easy for the LBS to forego any boundaries because it seems like 'progress', but that this just allows WW to avoid any consequence or necessity for any change. I know it's tempting to think that maybe you can just make her fall in love with you again by being so awesome, but has that ever really worked?

[LoneWlf]

44 you are in a very tough spot- I hope things work out for you. I do have a question about in house separation. I was told by an IC that in house separations will work because the WAS gets to see the transformation in the LBS occur right before them and gets to see that changes have been maintained. The IC also said that 80% of separations end in D. For the good folks that are here- what is your read on this? Sorry to hijack your stitch 44 but I am curious to find out.

[44tries]

44, I'm a bit blurry on some of the nuances of the level of your WW's infidelity. Was it emotional, physical, ongoing, one time? Remind me.

She had some very young co-workers that were here temporarily and we/she started going out with them occasionally (very limited social pool at this location). Right before they left, she took an overnight trip (they had stopped over in another city in the same country) to go out with them one more time. She claims she got drunk and kissed one of them. Next day was BD. They then texted constantly for about a month after he left. She claims she broke it off at the beginning of May. I have no way of 100% verifying these claims, but they match what I had suspected from my own "investigation". Many people here have told me to be highly skeptical of the "just kissing" part--which I am--however a couple messages I saw between them mentioned this encounter and did not imply it had gone farther. She has not cheated before (to my knowledge, but I'm pretty confident).

And when she returned, it sounded like she understood that transparency would be needed if she were to recommit to the M, but she wasn't ready to do that, correct?

She wasn't ready to recommit to the M. I don't think the transparency has anything to do with the problem. She understood that it would be needed and agreed.

If I'm correct that she betrayed your trust with another man and has since apologized but not recommitted to the M or agreed to any type of transparency then you need to be very careful. If you read my first post about returning WWs then you should have also read my post about the horror of 'maybe'.

Is it part of the same thread? I will go back and make sure I've read it.

If you are to remain in limbo then you can't assume that you're working towards a point when WW can recommit to the M. I mean of course that's what you want and you can do your part to allow that to be possible. But it's not in your control. And that may not be how it plays out. WW could be in a continued affair. She might want things calm and consequence free at home while lining up other dates to explore greener grass. Who knows? But it would be very foolish to assume that since she 'said' she was 'sorry' that she feels a deep enough remorse to resist other men, particularly when she's already made it clear that you two aren't in a committed relationship together.

So what I'm asking is if you knew she was lying to you and cheating on you what would you be comfortable with?

Would you allow her to shower with you? Go to the gym with you? Cuddle with you?

I'm not telling you that you shouldn't do these things. But if the answer is 'heck no, I wouldn't be this close to someone that is texting nude pics to someone else' then I think you're exposing yourself emotionally to someone that has hurt you once and hasn't given much reason to think it won't happen again.

I really think the best answer is to remain detached, GAL like crazy, be the H only a fool would leave, and to maintain the boundaries you would if you knew she was cheating. If she likes you and doesn't like those boundaries then she has some decisions to make. But to think that if you don't have any boundaries that maybe someday she'll respect them seems super backwards to me.

Myself, I wouldn't remain with someone that had cheated and not recommitted. I would distance myself and then explain to her that as much as I wanted the M to work she had opted out of the M and that 'not sure' was as far from a commitment as 'I want a divorce', and that I deserved a committed partner that was willing to fight for the M and to regain my trust. Since she can't provide that I am going to be taking steps towards physical separation and will be filing for divorce. This wouldn't be a bluff, I wouldn't be willing to live with that. If she changes her tune I'd listen to what she had to say, but if she blames me for ruining any chances I'd keep walking all the way to the court because that is f'd up.

But that's just me NOW. Right after BD I wouldn't have had the spine to do that. Either way though, if you intend to continue to live in limbo with an uncommitted WW I think you need to open your eyes to the reality of where you're at which is *NOT* the illusion she is giving you to keep you sated.

Artista, Sandi, what are your thoughts? I think in house separation is super tough because it's so easy for the LBS to forego any boundaries because it seems like 'progress', but that this just allows WW to avoid any consequence or necessity for any change. I know it's tempting to think that maybe you can just make her fall in love with you again by being so awesome, but has that ever really worked?

You make some GREAT points and I completely agree. I should probably be hedging more for the fact that she might still be cheating or will again in the future. Again, I don't think this is the case, but I'm also not naive. The limbo is indeed torturous, in large part because I agree with your point that I cannot assume we are working toward recommitment. I get torn between what you said about considering "not sure" as the same as "I want a D", and being patient with the holding pattern, as MWD calls it in DR.

Your last paragraph on in-house separation is gold. If she is dictating the terms and suffering no consequence, why would she need to recommit? The weird thing is that she agrees we cannot be separated or "just friends" while under the same roof. She just doesn't seem able to make a choice. She doesn't believe we can get out of the old rut if we tried again. She says she has spent too long not knowing if she wants the relationship. She goes into her specific frustrations and then claims it would be me "trying too hard" if we were to attempt to fix them. But then she says she "needs me" and can't let me go. She is stuck in limbo herself.

Frankly, I think it's a mix of immaturity and idealism. And you're right, I'm not sure how me sticking around "being awesome" is going to fix those problems. It's tempting because she is still in that place where she wants to talk about specifics and that makes me feel like she does have some hope deep down that they could improve (or why discuss them?). It's like she wants to try without saying so and giving me false hope. OR perhaps locking herself into a commitment, but I don't think she feels she is free to go explore greener pastures. We are not separated in that sense and both agree it isn't appropriate to be seeing other people, etc. Like I said, she is not saying "let's be friends". I can hardly wrap my head around what she is saying, because it is so emotion-based. It's extremely frustrating.

[44tries]

44 you are in a very tough spot- I hope things work out for you. I do have a question about in house separation. I was told by an IC that in house separations will work because the WAS gets to see the transformation in the LBS occur right before them and gets to see that changes have been maintained. The IC also said that 80% of separations end in D. For the good folks that are here- what is your read on this? Sorry to hijack your stitch 44 but I am curious to find out.

No problem, LoneWlf. I'm curious too because I see a lot of logic for both sides of the argument. I always hear "don't leave the home", chances drop dramatically, etc. More chances to convince them things could be different, etc. But then, I also hear "you can't nice them back", waiting around while they suffer no consequence won't work, etc.

[doodler]

But then, I also hear "you can't nice them back", waiting around while they suffer no consequence won't work, etc.

44tries,

The issue that most of us can't wrap our heads around is that our chances of reconciliation actually increase if we move on with our own lives and build a great life for ourselves. You're young and full of potential, use that potential. If she decides she wants to be with you, she'll let you know. If she doesn't want you back, no big deal, you've got your own happy life and you can move on. Reconciliation or not, you still have a great life. Why is that so hard to understand?

[MoveFrwd]

I had the exact same phone tv time dilemma
Frustrating is an understatement

Sorry, I cant post from my phone it seems, and Ive been too busy to post on my laptop at work, so, it may have seemed like I disappeared.

Sounds like a lot is going well.

But how about your GAL? Im worried she came home and fell right back into the center of everything you are doing.

[Zues126]

What Doodler said.

Frankly, I think it's a mix of immaturity and idealism. And you're right, I'm not sure how me sticking around "being awesome" is going to fix those problems. It's tempting because she is still in that place where she wants to talk about specifics and that makes me feel like she does have some hope deep down that they could improve (or why discuss them?). It's like she wants to try without saying so and giving me false hope. OR perhaps locking herself into a commitment, but I don't think she feels she is free to go explore greener pastures. We are not separated in that sense and both agree it isn't appropriate to be seeing other people, etc. Like I said, she is not saying "let's be friends". I can hardly wrap my head around what she is saying, because it is so emotion-based. It's extremely frustrating.

Very well articulated. Yes, her emotions are all over the place. This is why she can't be the one leading here.

Suppose you knew she'd never change at ALL (which is in fact essentially what she's tried to tell you). Would you continue to emotionally invest? Of course not. You are doing this in hope that it will change her feelings and behavior and then frustrated when it doesn't. This is not detachment. It's like you are a director have this movie script in your mind that YOUR role is to become a better H, and HER role is to recommit to the M and discover that she can fall back in love with you. But she told you "No, 44, I'm not playing that part." And yet you go on saying "Maybe if I just pay her the 14 million she'll show up and star in my movie anyway" and then you get impatient or surprised or upset that she doesn't.

Moving out and filing D doesn't have to happen today and that's not even the most important thing. The priority is for you to get a new movie script. One that centers around you alone. One that is down a path of increasing detachment and independence. One that doesn't hinge on WW because she has told you not to count on her. One that can flex for different contingencies but isn't reliant on them.

Essentially you focus on you, don't invest anything into WW. Be a better person for you. Take charge of your own life and happiness. Like doodler said, build a life so fulfilling that whether she wants to be part of it or not is inconsequential. When is the right time to file D and separate? Well, at some point when you have a new life built the old life can be released like a snake shedding it's skin. Neither with malice or regret, but just because it has stopped becoming useful.

I'd recommend much more time invested in GAL activity, much less focus on your WW. As long as you evaluate that quality of your life by how easy it is to interpret occasional hints of affection out of her confused emotional turbulence as a 'positive sign' you are floundering. When you get to the point that you just shrug because you don't need her drama in your life then you are doing it the right way.

One thing I always say to LBS's is this: How can you expect them to let go of OM, if you can't let go of WW? Seriously. Think about it. You want her to do the growth because you're not strong enough to? Someone has to lead and it can't be her. Show her what strength and detachment is. And then get to the point where you don't care if she learns or not. You can do this.

[Mowgli]

Ok,

So I hope you are listening to Zues, becauseif you can apply what he is saying, it will truly change your life and the path you walk from this moment forward.

My IC talked a lot about two people bringing their best to a M in order to make it work, but the big idea I took away from it was that I need to build my own pillar. If I'm not meeting my own needs, how can I meet another person's needs?

Here's the other thing I want to mention, and I'm sure you'll get feedback from others here on this as well...

The cuddling and taking showers is your W's way of figuring out if she still can have that affection she needs from you, but it's actually a really big temp check, she's just not looking at it that way.

You've done all this work explaining to her how she needs to either recommit, or D. She heard your message, understood where your boundaries were and then you just let your wall down.

If she "doesn't know" what she wants, why does she get the benefit of all the R stuff?

Would you let your roommate climb in the shower with you? Until she can verbalize her commitment and show you the work, she really shouldn't be getting R benefits.

If it was me, the first thing I would've said when she climbed in the shower is, "So what's happening here? You told me you didn't know what you wanted and you think it's ok to climb in the shower with me?"

YOU have worth, man! Don't let yourself get pulled around like that!

It's kind of like that "why buy the cow when you can get get the milk for free" principle.

T

[Mowgli]

That's just how I see it, anyways. Others may feel different; I don't know

[Mowgli]

And I know you're craving that attention and all of that really felt good (trust me, I know!), but none of it helps you with a goal of detachment, or restoration of R because if she knows she can have it whenever she wants it, then there's no value placed on those actions.

[sandi2]

If it isn't perfect she is stressed and bothered.

My mom was a perfectionist, and I became very much like her.......which I know, now, must have driven my H crazy. If company was expected, my family dreaded living with me while I prepared everything to be just perfect. I have overcome a lot of those tendicies. But I do understand how it could affect your W. But guess what? It is the perfectionist's problem. It should not be the spouse's problem, too. However, it becomes the spouse's problem, just trying to figure out how to live with her.

You've said no matter how much you clean the house, or even if she says it looks good......it doesn't seem to make her happy. I learned that it is important to men that their W is happy. I also learned it is up to the individual to make themselves happy. You will probably never make your W happy though cleaning the house. You can only do your best, as a way of sharing responsibility and showing you do care. The rest is up to her. You will feel defeated every time, if you see this as way of making her happy. It just ain't gonna happen! However, if you feel you've done the best you could in the allotted time you had and the conditions or whatever, then that should be your measuring stick to use.

This may be necessary in order for you to live with her in some kind of peaceful environment......but, don't do it expecting to make your W happy. Make sense? She can be glad, mad, or sad. It's up to her, just as long as she doesn't take it out on you. And, if she does, then you call her out. You don't jump in to help her do something else she finds to clean after your hard work. Apparently, this is some type of thing she has to do......but if it is OCD or whatever, it is her issue, not yours. Don't make it yours.

Whatever her inner problems are that causes her unhappiness, she'll have to figure it out, other than blaming it on you, or expecting you to "make" her feel a certain way.

But it does sort of amaze me how little tolerance she has for dog hair despite her love for dogs. I don't like it either, but it is a huge, daily battle that is just reality with the dogs we have. It will never be completely hair free and you could kill yourself trying

True, but she just can't deal with in the same logical way that you do. It's like she loves the dogs, but get upset at them (or you) for shedding hair. I'm glad they are not just your dogs you brought into the relationship, b/c that would not have been a good situation.

She feels I am applying pressure and pushing my "angle". She doesn't think there is a way to try without feeling guilt or obligation. Then, some random super specific stuff: She doesn't have fun doing projects with me. I shut her down and make her feel like I'll listen to her ideas but always think mine are better. If I do give her the reigns, I just ask what to do next like a child. I'm not spontaneous enough and she feels she has lost all her motivation to do anything. She said I take forever and worry about things like brushing my teeth first thing or spend too long looking at my iPad before getting out of bed. We can never go anywhere straight away.

This is just superficial stuff she is finding as excuses. Any MC worth their weight in salt could help with these issues. She could read almost any marriage help book and learn how to deal with this shallow stuff. IDK what she'll do if you guys should have a major problem to hit (not saying her cheating isn't major enough).

She is also trying to manipulate you into giving her the MBR. Just tell her she is welcome to sleep in the bed with you, but you are not leaving it. Don't go into explanations. I suggest that you go several days without addressing any issues you've recently covered. If she brings it up......you can listen. If you have to give an answer or response, keep it short & sweet.

I also have a feeling she is going to bring up the workout class when I go tomorrow (it hasn't come up again, should I still tell her no if she asks to join?)

That's up to you. If you think it could draw you closer, then go for it. If you don't want her along, then maybe you should go at a different time. Here's what I am thinking, 44. She is not totally reconciled to coming around to what you want, but she could be showing a lot worse behavior and being much colder than she's been since returning from the trip. So, you might want to consider it. The workout could take some of that b'tchiness out of her and benefit in several other ways. Know what I mean? Play it by ear.

Still no sign she has any contact with OM. She hasn't touched her phone much at all since she's been home. But I have to admit the separate sleeping thing has made me slightly suspicious; maybe it's just a big deal symbolically for her and she isn't ready to go there. IDK

Well, she may take it deeper underground. Try not to be obsessed about it. If she's contacting him, she'll slip up eventually.

Have you considered reading a book on time management, or taking a workshop or something that would help you with your individual problem of hyper-focusing?

I wouldn't say you need to prove to your W your assignments, etc, and I'm not suggesting you wait to do it in front of her. However, you could mention to her in daily conversation what you had to study or how much time was spent on your study/assignments that day. (Look at your clock when you start and again when you finish the work). And, if she ever gets in one of her "work" moods or sulks, you can always tell her you have to study/homework.......and then leave her with it. Make sense? As talkative as you were, I assumed you probably discussed it, but I could see her considering it "boring" or over her head. I just think you have nothing much to do all day, and she wants to keep you busy. Some people simply can't stand to think about their S not working at something when they aren't together. Crazy, but true.

I think she has grown to expect all your time to be spent on her....some way, some how. Yes, this is partly your fault, b/c she is spoiled. When she is home, she expects 100% of your attention. That's why she doesn't want you on the computer/phone....but thinks it's fine for her. First, try leading by example. If she doesn't follow, then I suggest you might bring it up in causal conversation. See if she would agree that whenever watching tv together, eating together, or other things together......that neither of you use that time for phone or IPad activity. (Electronics should not be carried to the table when eating). Not as a way to control, but out of consideration. It is highly rude manners, IMHO, but I am old school.

[SteveLW]

One thing I always say to LBS's is this: How can you expect them to let go of OM, if you can't let go of WW? Seriously. Think about it. You want her to do the growth because you're not strong enough to? Someone has to lead and it can't be her. Show her what strength and detachment is. And then get to the point where you don't care if she learns or not. You can do this.

Just when I thought I had heard everything that was profound already, someone come along with something amazing like this. YES SO TRUE! We expect our WS/WASs to just drop something they took weeks and sometimes months getting into, but we can't drop them! I will remember that one. How can we expect them to let go but we can't let go. TY for that one Zues!

[RR17]

One thing I always say to LBS's is this: How can you expect them to let go of OM, if you can't let go of WW? Seriously. Think about it. You want her to do the growth because you're not strong enough to? Someone has to lead and it can't be her. Show her what strength and detachment is. And then get to the point where you don't care if she learns or not. You can do this.

Just when I thought I had heard everything that was profound already, someone come along with something amazing like this. YES SO TRUE! We expect our WS/WASs to just drop something they took weeks and sometimes months getting into, but we can't drop them! I will remember that one. How can we expect them to let go but we can't let go. TY for that one Zues!

Not debating the merits, But they did make the choice to get involved. We were forced into it. Big difference.

[Nutcrac]

WW: "I couldn't wait to get back home and be with you. I wanted us to make love and tell you how sorry I was for everything. I dreamed of us taking a little trip......like a second honeymoon, to start over. Then I get here and find you cold and hateful, yelling ultimatums at me, before I can even tell you how I feel. But.....I guess my feelings aren't important to you. Maybe you are right. Maybe we should just get a divorce".

Sandi2 / Experts - wanted to know what should be the redponse to the above statement?

[44tries]

What Doodler said.

Very well articulated. Yes, her emotions are all over the place. This is why she can't be the one leading here.

Suppose you knew she'd never change at ALL (which is in fact essentially what she's tried to tell you). Would you continue to emotionally invest? Of course not. You are doing this in hope that it will change her feelings and behavior and then frustrated when it doesn't. This is not detachment. It's like you are a director have this movie script in your mind that YOUR role is to become a better H, and HER role is to recommit to the M and discover that she can fall back in love with you. But she told you "No, 44, I'm not playing that part." And yet you go on saying "Maybe if I just pay her the 14 million she'll show up and star in my movie anyway" and then you get impatient or surprised or upset that she doesn't.

Moving out and filing D doesn't have to happen today and that's not even the most important thing. The priority is for you to get a new movie script. One that centers around you alone. One that is down a path of increasing detachment and independence. One that doesn't hinge on WW because she has told you not to count on her. One that can flex for different contingencies but isn't reliant on them.

Essentially you focus on you, don't invest anything into WW. Be a better person for you. Take charge of your own life and happiness. Like doodler said, build a life so fulfilling that whether she wants to be part of it or not is inconsequential. When is the right time to file D and separate? Well, at some point when you have a new life built the old life can be released like a snake shedding it's skin. Neither with malice or regret, but just because it has stopped becoming useful.

I'd recommend much more time invested in GAL activity, much less focus on your WW. As long as you evaluate that quality of your life by how easy it is to interpret occasional hints of affection out of her confused emotional turbulence as a 'positive sign' you are floundering. When you get to the point that you just shrug because you don't need her drama in your life then you are doing it the right way.

One thing I always say to LBS's is this: How can you expect them to let go of OM, if you can't let go of WW? Seriously. Think about it. You want her to do the growth because you're not strong enough to? Someone has to lead and it can't be her. Show her what strength and detachment is. And then get to the point where you don't care if she learns or not. You can do this.

This is an amazing post, Zeus. Thank you. It so accurately describes the struggle and what the right path really is. I completely hear what you all are saying, and know that my primary goal is really to go on a self improvement journey for myself and that's the best thing I can do for the MR at this point. And that journey is filled with detachment and increased independence. I have taken a lot of big steps and will continue to take more in this direction. The problem is that is so much easier said than done. The hardest thing is the part I bolded about not investing anything in WW. Living together like we are this becomes an incredibly big challenge. But I completely subscribe to the principle and am working toward it everyday.

[44tries]

Ok,

So I hope you are listening to Zues, becauseif you can apply what he is saying, it will truly change your life and the path you walk from this moment forward.

My IC talked a lot about two people bringing their best to a M in order to make it work, but the big idea I took away from it was that I need to build my own pillar. If I'm not meeting my own needs, how can I meet another person's needs?

This is perfectly stated. Makes total sense and captures the message of the others' posts in a nutshell.

Here's the other thing I want to mention, and I'm sure you'll get feedback from others here on this as well...

The cuddling and taking showers is your W's way of figuring out if she still can have that affection she needs from you, but it's actually a really big temp check, she's just not looking at it that way.

You've done all this work explaining to her how she needs to either recommit, or D. She heard your message, understood where your boundaries were and then you just let your wall down.

If she "doesn't know" what she wants, why does she get the benefit of all the R stuff?

Would you let your roommate climb in the shower with you? Until she can verbalize her commitment and show you the work, she really shouldn't be getting R benefits.

If it was me, the first thing I would've said when she climbed in the shower is, "So what's happening here? You told me you didn't know what you wanted and you think it's ok to climb in the shower with me?"

YOU have worth, man! Don't let yourself get pulled around like that!

It's kind of like that "why buy the cow when you can get get the milk for free" principle.

T

So, this is my exact internal struggle. I totally get what you're saying, the cow/milk analogy is a perfect illustration. And I don't want to give the milk for free. But, then if I go the other direction I run into issues like your shower example, for instance. It sounds good and sets a boundary, but I'm essentially bringing up an R talk all the time, creating a lot of tension, and just feels like it applies pressure I'm supposed to be taking off by DBing. Maybe I'm just being weak, IDK. But that's why I struggle with putting the principle to practice. I feel like I constantly get stuck.

[44tries]

My mom was a perfectionist, and I became very much like her.......which I know, now, must have driven my H crazy. If company was expected, my family dreaded living with me while I prepared everything to be just perfect. I have overcome a lot of those tendicies. But I do understand how it could affect your W. But guess what? It is the perfectionist's problem. It should not be the spouse's problem, too. However, it becomes the spouse's problem, just trying to figure out how to live with her.

You've said no matter how much you clean the house, or even if she says it looks good......it doesn't seem to make her happy. I learned that it is important to men that their W is happy. I also learned it is up to the individual to make themselves happy. You will probably never make your W happy though cleaning the house. You can only do your best, as a way of sharing responsibility and showing you do care. The rest is up to her. You will feel defeated every time, if you see this as way of making her happy. It just ain't gonna happen! However, if you feel you've done the best you could in the allotted time you had and the conditions or whatever, then that should be your measuring stick to use.

This may be necessary in order for you to live with her in some kind of peaceful environment......but, don't do it expecting to make your W happy. Make sense? She can be glad, mad, or sad. It's up to her, just as long as she doesn't take it out on you. And, if she does, then you call her out. You don't jump in to help her do something else she finds to clean after your hard work. Apparently, this is some type of thing she has to do......but if it is OCD or whatever, it is her issue, not yours. Don't make it yours.

Whatever her inner problems are that causes her unhappiness, she'll have to figure it out, other than blaming it on you, or expecting you to "make" her feel a certain way.

This is such an important concept and was a great reminder.

True, but she just can't deal with in the same logical way that you do. It's like she loves the dogs, but get upset at them (or you) for shedding hair. I'm glad they are not just your dogs you brought into the relationship, b/c that would not have been a good situation.

I love your insights, Sandi. They help me get away from own narrow perspective and try to see through my W's.

This is just superficial stuff she is finding as excuses. Any MC worth their weight in salt could help with these issues. She could read almost any marriage help book and learn how to deal with this shallow stuff. IDK what she'll do if you guys should have a major problem to hit (not saying her cheating isn't major enough).

She is also trying to manipulate you into giving her the MBR. Just tell her she is welcome to sleep in the bed with you, but you are not leaving it. Don't go into explanations. I suggest that you go several days without addressing any issues you've recently covered. If she brings it up......you can listen. If you have to give an answer or response, keep it short & sweet.

I agree and that's why it's frustrating she won't even try. Anyway, this is exactly what I have done/am planning to do. I've made it clear I'm not leaving the bed, but she is welcome to sleep in it and I am not to be blamed for her being banished to the spare room. I don't plan on addressing any issues and just seeing how settling in goes. Like you said, one day at a time.

That's up to you. If you think it could draw you closer, then go for it. If you don't want her along, then maybe you should go at a different time. Here's what I am thinking, 44. She is not totally reconciled to coming around to what you want, but she could be showing a lot worse behavior and being much colder than she's been since returning from the trip. So, you might want to consider it. The workout could take some of that b'tchiness out of her and benefit in several other ways. Know what I mean? Play it by ear.

This is very helpful, thank you. I do think it is something she would really enjoy and appreciate me for introducing her to it. But it is a significant GAL activity and I go back to that internal struggle I just discussed in the above post. I would love her to join me and I do think it could draw us closer, but I don't know if it would be a detriment to my personal goals (detachment, etc).

Your sentence in bold is exactly how I feel.

Well, she may take it deeper underground. Try not to be obsessed about it. If she's contacting him, she'll slip up eventually.

Exactly.

Have you considered reading a book on time management, or taking a workshop or something that would help you with your individual problem of hyper-focusing?

Yes, and I plan to dive into a couple shortly. I have dabbled with resources for it before and there is a lot out there. It is definitely something I plan to address.

I wouldn't say you need to prove to your W your assignments, etc, and I'm not suggesting you wait to do it in front of her. However, you could mention to her in daily conversation what you had to study or how much time was spent on your study/assignments that day. (Look at your clock when you start and again when you finish the work). And, if she ever gets in one of her "work" moods or sulks, you can always tell her you have to study/homework.......and then leave her with it. Make sense? As talkative as you were, I assumed you probably discussed it, but I could see her considering it "boring" or over her head. I just think you have nothing much to do all day, and she wants to keep you busy. Some people simply can't stand to think about their S not working at something when they aren't together. Crazy, but true.

These thoughts are really helpful.

I think she has grown to expect all your time to be spent on her....some way, some how. Yes, this is partly your fault, b/c she is spoiled. When she is home, she expects 100% of your attention. That's why she doesn't want you on the computer/phone....but thinks it's fine for her. First, try leading by example. If she doesn't follow, then I suggest you might bring it up in causal conversation. See if she would agree that whenever watching tv together, eating together, or other things together......that neither of you use that time for phone or IPad activity. (Electronics should not be carried to the table when eating). Not as a way to control, but out of consideration. It is highly rude manners, IMHO, but I am old school.

This is a great idea. I have already tried this a bit and can tell that when I don't touch my electronics, she is hesitant to touch hers. Or if I do, she will follow right away. It is actually kind of a fun experiment that reminds me of some of the "core" techniques MWD writes about in DR.


In other news, she slept in the bed last night. I don't know if it means she will continue to, but I have felt she was teetering closer and closer on this issue since she got back. She came in so we could get travel plan and we spent a few hours researching and booking a trip for a few weeks from now (comically, we are taking a trip to Paris. Also going a couple other places). Then, we let the dogs out and locked up for the night and she just came back to the bed. :shrug:

[44tries]

Oops forgot to bold the sentence I referenced...She is not totally reconciled to coming around to what you want, but she could be showing a lot worse behavior and being much colder than she's been since returning from the trip.

[44tries]

She slept in the bed again last night, but announced it was only because she was "afraid she might die from the paint fumes" in hers (I think they are doing work next door). We also finalized a few details of our trip and she brought up the fact that our hotels only had one bed, etc. and wanted to make sure I wasn't getting any ideas that the trip was something it wasn't. I told her I just wanted to have a fun vacation.

She has a four day weekend for Memorial Day. I am going to try to make sure I am GALing and doing some things that don't revolve around her. I've decided to approach GAL with the mindset that if she wants to join, okay, but I will be doing it either way. It's too easy to get caught up doing something with her and let my own stuff slide. So I'm working on this.

In some ways, everything is much more difficult now that the A is exposed/over. I was doing much better with detachment and focusing on myself before, probably in part because she was much less focused on me and it was easier to get away. I also had a good source of anger and the reality of what was going on helped keep my eye on moving on and not giving up, but not holding on to hope. Now, I know I must keep working toward becoming the spouse only a fool would leave, but I feel I'm treading water (and burning precious time).

I am still really struggling with Sandi's line I bolded in the post directly above, and trying to follow everyone's advice (detach, don't let her cake-eat, etc). My fear of rocking the boat has returned. Not all of it--I can still stand up to her disrespect. But during times when she is just being friendly, I no longer have the "excuse" that she is seeing someone else so we can't be working on the MR. I am constantly conflicted; maybe I will just re-read the detachment thread ten more times because I know it isn't the same as pushing her away.

She talks about wanting to feel like she can breathe and be apart, but how it can't happen when we live together because both our feelings get hurt. If I do things on my own, she feels abandoned. If she does her own things, she feels guilty. I feel like she has so many "wrong" ideas...and then I remember how she always felt I think she's wrong.

[sandi2]

Originally Posted By: sandi2

WW: "I couldn't wait to get back home and be with you. I wanted us to make love and tell you how sorry I was for everything. I dreamed of us taking a little trip......like a second honeymoon, to start over. Then I get here and find you cold and hateful, yelling ultimatums at me, before I can even tell you how I feel. But.....I guess my feelings aren't important to you. Maybe you are right. Maybe we should just get a divorce".

Sandi2 / Experts - wanted to know what should be the redponse to the above statement?

LBH: "I'm sorry that's how you feel".

[sandi2]

In other news, she slept in the bed last night.

. It's a move in getting closer. Just be Fonzie cool and don't act like, "Yippe, oh boy"!!

Don't make any references to her sleeping in the bed or ask her if she's going to again.

Might not hurt to review short information on google about how to be the dominant male in the MR. Just to stay sharp and not fall into old comfortable habits of submission and passivity.

[44tries]

Well, she's back to not sleeping in the bed. Two nights in, two nights out.

Today was not a great day. We had a lunch reservation with three of our friends and we met them in the early afternoon. We ended up walking around and having a few drinks and were with them for 8 hours. It was a long day, and I was to the point where I was feeling a lot of negative things and wishing for alone time...and my W felt the exact same thing. This awkward tension began to build in the last few hours while we were out and she would ask what was my problem, while I could tell she had a problem, and so on. This is where I really need detachment because I cannot let her emotions affect mine and further feed her moods. I can see myself doing it and it definitely does not help.

She is so filled resentment and contempt and it is days like these where it shows. These are the times she refers to when she says her treatment of me is horrible. She becomes extremely irritable and takes it all out on me. It's in subtle ways, but she knows how to make me feel like trash. I don't know why she has the irritable moods in the first place. I know people have moods, but I can honestly say I have never had the feelings she has that come on seemingly unprompted. It isn't even always toward me, she has it with her friends. Sometimes the way she talks about being irritated/disgusted by someone is so excessive to me. With me, it's not like we have a fight and then she's mad at me. Sometimes there are small triggers, and like I mentioned I know I feed it sometimes, but it seems like she just gets spontaneously flooded with resentment. Then she is short with me, ignores me, just overall disrespect. Once my mom was there for an episode of this and she told me, "you have a LOT of patience." (My mom doesn't say negative things, but that is her version of saying my W treats me like crap).

Tonight when we got home she immediately said she felt suffocated by everyone and was going to bed and needed alone time. Fine, I think all of us were feeling that way by the end of the day. But then she stomps around, purposely ignoring me, and for the second night in a row walks out of the room to go to hers without a word or glance. But she always has some reason to come back out or say something to the dogs. I probably shouldn't have done this, but I told her I thought it was rude to not acknowledge me or simply say goodnight. Of course she had some snarky response about not needing to let me know.

Anyway, in this case I think this was all triggered by me going to my workout class last night. She has been competing with my GAL for time. It's like there is this subconscious pull for her to not want me to go do GAL stuff. So, last night I declined her invitation/request to go get dinner because I had to go to the class (which she knew) and I think she was none too pleased (too bad). But when I got back she was colder and descending into the resentment flood. I think somehow some of her resentment toward me is for "abandonment", for lack of a better word.

During the "mini-BD" that happened last year, she had an outburst of emotion/tears that only lasted for a second before she stifled them, but she asked if I had any idea how it made her feel sitting alone at home every night, especially while I was out with friends/coworkers (this was referring to before we moved and I worked full time with a very long commute). I commuted 1.5 hours each way through bad traffic because it was cheaper and easier for us/her to live closer to base. I got home 2-3 hours later than her most nights because 1. She often got off early at 3-4pm 2. Her commute was way shorter and 3. If I left at the "normal" 5pm, my commute would have been 2-2.5 hours home. My job was very flexible with hours and it made much more sense for me to work 10-6 for traffic reasons. So she got home around 4 while I got home around 7:30. And she waited around and began her TV addiction. This is the beginning of her losing her identity and all motivation to do things as she did before.

Probably less than once a month, maybe once in two months TOPS, my coworkers and I would go to happy hour. I would usually stay until about 9 (although I can remember at least once it was as late as 11), but my W would start calling as early as 7. Other people had wives/husbands, but mine was the one harassing me about when I was coming home. I will also note I invited her to come every time but the drive made that sort of difficult and she always declined. Anyway, all of this stuff became a huge emotional wound for her. Even though I don't really know that I did anything wrong. My commute sucked but it was unavoidable. And surely I should be able go to happy hour once every couple months and stay longer than 2 hours. Once a week, no. But this was not a common thing. Now, I feel I am reopening these wounds with my GAL. Perhaps it is necessary in order to kill the codependency. But it brings out such a huge part of her resentment, which is the number one enemy right now.

Also, she was texting a bit today and I don't know who. I know her ex has texted her in the past few days about promotions (this is one of the only times they talk). I also know that as long as she has this much resentment and rebellion aka waywardness, it's only a matter of time before she finds someone else to talk to or contacts OM. Maybe it's time to go back to tougher love.

[44tries]

Sorry that post was long and detailed, I sort of went into journaling mode

[artista]

She slept in the bed again last night, but announced it was only because she was "afraid she might die from the paint fumes" in hers (I think they are doing work next door).

tell her enough with the comments... you're not ready to be with her anyway... she can always sleep on the couch if she is so unsure of you...

She talks about wanting to feel like she can breathe and be apart, but how it can't happen when we live together because both our feelings get hurt. If I do things on my own, she feels abandoned. If she does her own things, she feels guilty. I feel like she has so many "wrong" ideas...and then I remember how she always felt I think she's wrong.

so what... if she is wrong, she is wrong... tell her there is no reason for either of you to feel guilty whenever you do separate activities... you're cool with it... and she should be cool with your doing your own stuff too...

[artista]

don't let her treat you badly... when she does, tell her no--it's not okay... she can be in a bad mood, anxious, whatever... but she is not to take it out on you... you are not to tiptoe around her... you are not to walk on eggshells... i was away last week, so i missed a lot in your situation... i also think i became frustrated with your situation... i felt like you were giving her too much credit where none was deserved... i do not trust WW... i don't trust their words, their tears, their fears... and i was feeling like you were putting too much hope in her return... i need to spend time catching up on your situation...

--artista

[sandi2]

At this time, giving her space and taking space for yourself is critical. Don't fall back into sticking like glue to each other. That's too much right now.

She is so filled resentment and contempt and it is days like these where it shows. These are the times she refers to when she says her treatment of me is horrible. She becomes extremely irritable and takes it all out on me. It's in subtle ways, but she knows how to make me feel like trash.

Look 44, these are tests. Yes, she resents you to the hilt, so are you just going to put up with it? Have you not listen to a word I've previously said? You need to stand up to her and tell her to cut the cr@p, or take a hike. Why are you doing this again?

I probably shouldn't have done this, but I told her I thought it was rude to not acknowledge me or simply say goodnight. Of course she had some snarky response about not needing to let me know.

Sounds just like a nice guy, telling her you thought it was rude for her not to acknowledge you. Yeah, she had a snarky remark, b/c your pitiful remark turned her off.

Anyway, in this case I think this was all triggered by me going to my workout class last night. She has been competing with my GAL for time. It's like there is this subconscious pull for her to not want me to go do GAL stuff. So, last night I declined her invitation/request to go get dinner because I had to go to the class (which she knew) and I think she was none too pleased (too bad). But when I got back she was colder and descending into the resentment flood. I think somehow some of her resentment toward me is for "abandonment", for lack of a better word.

Oh for crying out loud! Stop analyzing and making excuses for her. She is punishing you, plain and simple. Are you acting like a punished little boy?

Also, she was texting a bit today and I don't know who. I know her ex has texted her in the past few days about promotions (this is one of the only times they talk). I also know that as long as she has this much resentment and rebellion aka waywardness, it's only a matter of time before she finds someone else to talk to or contacts OM. Maybe it's time to go back to tougher love.

So, basically, she returned home and returned to her same old behaviors.....and you've done what?

[Nutcrac]

Sandi2,

Do some of the points mentioned above like standing up to yor wife and gelling her to cut the crap and setting LBS boundaries when she keeps going back and forth emotionally apply to WAW also?

[sandi2]

What's going on, 44? I get nervous when you drop off the radar.

[44tries]

Artista, your advice is really helpful and I love when you give input. You are right I gave her far too much credit.

Sandi, I want to ask you about the pitiful remark you touched on in your last post. I get very frustrated with myself because I don't know why it is so hard for me to identify things like that before they come out of my mouth. I know I have had NGS for a very long time and I can't instantly fix it, but the hardest part is when I don't even see it and have to wait for the 2x4 from you guys here. So, using that instance as an example, how can I better address when my W decides she can ignore me? Or should that just be something I let go? I don't want to tolerate the disrespect, but I understand calling her out or just saying she is being rude isn't "enforceable" and just makes me look weak.

Emotionally, my detachment is getting better. I definitely had a setback with the whole confrontation and her coming home situation. Sort of felt like I took my eyes off the road. But I'm back on track. Now I am just readjusting to having to navigate all the daily interaction. We spent a lot of time together over the holiday weekend; I did a few GAL things on my own but there were also a lot of events happening with mutual friends.

I also struggle with things that aren't out of the house. For instance, since most of my friends are far away, I like to hop on and play online games with them. But I have some weird guilt about playing video games when my W is around. I've never been a big gamer or anything, but I would go months without playing at all since getting married. Now, I don't think I should feel bad at all if it's something I want to do in my down time, but I worry about it feeding my W's thoughts that I am not productive/responsible.

Her entitlement is still through the roof, but I have been standing up to her and she is catching on. If she asks me for something and I give her the look, she might say "nevermind, it's okay" or she will try to add "please". I guess it's a start that she is acknowledging the dynamic, but when is she going to stop asking in the first place? I think she still fully subscribes to the idea that she can ask/expect all kinds of things from me because she works (yes, I have told her I am not an employee just because she brings home the paycheck).

[sandi2]

I'm sorry if I let my frustration hurt your feelings. That was not my intent, and I am not being helpful if I hurt you. This is the remark I referred to as pitiful. Quote: "I told her I thought it was rude to not acknowledge me or simply say goodnight.". This was your W's way of showing you a little more disrespect and getting her control in the relationship. Perhaps you thought you were calling her out on rude behavior, but by your description, it just sounded kind of weak and petty. However, I wasn't there to see it or hear your tone of voice.

Emotionally, my detachment is getting better. I definitely had a setback with the whole confrontation and her coming home situation. Sort of felt like I took my eyes off the road. But I'm back on track. Now I am just readjusting to having to navigate all the daily interaction. We spent a lot of time together over the holiday weekend; I did a few GAL things on my own but there were also a lot of events happening with mutual friends.

I am relieved to hear it.

I also struggle with things that aren't out of the house. For instance, since most of my friends are far away, I like to hop on and play online games with them. But I have some weird guilt about playing video games when my W is around. I've never been a big gamer or anything, but I would go months without playing at all since getting married. Now, I don't think I should feel bad at all if it's something I want to do in my down time, but I worry about it feeding my W's thoughts that I am not productive/responsible.

Well, she has been obvious about how she views you doing anything that doesn't revolve around her. She wants you to accommodate your activities according to what she wants. Honestly, I think she intends for you to feel guilty when you aren't being productive or attending to her. You are entitled to do things you enjoy.

Her entitlement is still through the roof, but I have been standing up to her and she is catching on. If she asks me for something and I give her the look, she might say "nevermind, it's okay" or she will try to add "please". I guess it's a start that she is acknowledging the dynamic, but when is she going to stop asking in the first place? I think she still fully subscribes to the idea that she can ask/expect all kinds of things from me because she works (yes, I have told her I am not an employee just because she brings home the paycheck).

You know how you said it will take time on your NGS? Same thing applies to her sense of entitlement. This has been the dynamic in the relationship, and she will continue to test you until you get enough of it. I think you are way too nice about it. Just giving her the look is not enough if you're going ahead and getting whatever she wants. Even if she adds a "please" on it, I think the only way to really break her from trying to "use" you to wait on her is to get rather short and have a "fed up" attitude about it. Not very nice, you say? Exactly my point! When a woman has stomped on a man with NGS for a long time, he often has to act not-so-nice before she treats him better. If you don't believe me, ask another WW.

There will be times you will get tired and just want to go back to how things have been in the past. It will never get better, if you give in to that old dynamic. She is trying hard to get to that level of control again.

So far, she has not shown remorse or humility since returning home. She is going to test what you said to her that day she came home, to see if you really stick to it. I think she will push the boundaries as much as she can and get by with it. So, don't expect to see any quick changes in how she interacts with you. You will have to hold her feet to the fire until she makes a change. It may feel as though it's been a long time, but it has been very short. It didn't have to be this way, but she was too stubborn and selfish to be willing to submit and behave like a loving, respectful W.

((hugs))

[44tries]

I'm sorry if I let my frustration hurt your feelings. That was not my intent, and I am not being helpful if I hurt you. This is the remark I referred to as pitiful. Quote: "I told her I thought it was rude to not acknowledge me or simply say goodnight.". This was your W's way of showing you a little more disrespect and getting her control in the relationship. Perhaps you thought you were calling her out on rude behavior, but by your description, it just sounded kind of weak and petty. However, I wasn't there to see it or hear your tone of voice.

No worries, Sandi, I always appreciate your feedback no matter what it is. I understand what you meant and it's probably why I knew better at the time and should have listened to myself. I just got frustrated with her getting to decide if she wants to be nice or pretend I don't exist and the old way was to just not say anything, so I did the opposite. But it isn't something that is enforceable so I can see why it was just a weak statement. I can't make her acknowledge me, say goodnight, etc.

Well, she has been obvious about how she views you doing anything that doesn't revolve around her. She wants you to accommodate your activities according to what she wants. Honestly, I think she intends for you to feel guilty when you aren't being productive or attending to her. You are entitled to do things you enjoy.

I agree. I think that's why I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, because if she truly views me as a worm, anything I do that isn't productive or for her will only make that worse in her mind. I understand that's not my problem, but I don't think it helps my situation at all.

You know how you said it will take time on your NGS? Same thing applies to her sense of entitlement. This has been the dynamic in the relationship, and she will continue to test you until you get enough of it. I think you are way too nice about it. Just giving her the look is not enough if you're going ahead and getting whatever she wants. Even if she adds a "please" on it, I think the only way to really break her from trying to "use" you to wait on her is to get rather short and have a "fed up" attitude about it. Not very nice, you say? Exactly my point! When a woman has stomped on a man with NGS for a long time, he often has to act not-so-nice before she treats him better. If you don't believe me, ask another WW.

There will be times you will get tired and just want to go back to how things have been in the past. It will never get better, if you give in to that old dynamic. She is trying hard to get to that level of control again.

This makes total sense. I won't let up on the pushback and I won't let the old dynamic wrangle it's way back in. It helps to know that I can act "not so nice" and this will help, not make things worse. That right there might be one of the hardest things for guys with NGS to grasp and even harder to really believe. But I have done enough now to know that when I act in a way that I never would have dreamed of before, the response is positive. She might get mad, but I can see the dynamics shift and in fact things improve.

So far, she has not shown remorse or humility since returning home. She is going to test what you said to her that day she came home, to see if you really stick to it. I think she will push the boundaries as much as she can and get by with it. So, don't expect to see any quick changes in how she interacts with you. You will have to hold her feet to the fire until she makes a change. It may feel as though it's been a long time, but it has been very short. It didn't have to be this way, but she was too stubborn and selfish to be willing to submit and behave like a loving, respectful W.

((hugs))

I know Like you said, the work for both of us can't happen overnight. It's unfortunate that she wasn't fully where she needed to be when she returned home and I will admit it sort of feels like we went two steps forward, one step back. BUT, that's still a gain of one step forward and I will march on. Things have been okay, but she is still clear about wanting to split..eventually anyway (we have not had any R talks, but she makes the typical comments like having to buy more furniture in the future to fill two households etc).

She also seems to be really struggling personally. I overheard her on the phone telling her sister it was almost impossible to even get out of bed in the morning. She has voiced to me in the past couple weeks that she is in a really bad place. She opened up about a lot of stuff from her past, but said there is something bothering her that she won't talk about with anyone. She tried once a few years ago with her mom and was dismissed. I really can only guess as to what it is, but it's something traumatic from childhood. Anyway, she says that if she can get back on track with her schooling and some other major changes it will "fix everything" (I don't think she meant with us but those were her words).

I am torn with how much I should help her with these endeavors. She has always asked me to help but then it feels like she puts it all on me and blames me when she doesn't meet her goals. However, I also think that it's important to motivate each other and push each other be the best people we can be (in a healthy MR anyway, perhaps now it isn't appropriate). She has some big dreams and finally feels like maybe they are possible (and also still thinks maybe I will be included even if we aren't together, which really boggles my mind).

As for myself, I have a very busy week ahead and am continuing to make my own dreams become reality. We leave for our trip on Friday and I have a lot to do before then. When we get back, I am going on a weekend surf trip with some new friends I met through my GAL Meetups (W is not happy and started with the questions again, which I shut down).

[44tries]

O, I forgot to mention there has been no sign of contacting OM or anyone else (unless she has suddenly become very, very sneaky and it is only in the middle of the night).

[ovrrnbw]

O, I forgot to mention there has been no sign of contacting OM or anyone else (unless she has suddenly become very, very sneaky and it is only in the middle of the night).

The biggest giveaways is how they handle the phone. Secretive? Screen lock? Nervous around it? Under the pillow at night? Things like that, plus her attitude and how she speaks will tell the tale.

[sandi2]

She tried once a few years ago with her mom and was dismissed. I really can only guess as to what it is, but it's something traumatic from childhood

I think all you can do is encourage her to seek IC. If she approached her mom and felt as if she was dismissed, that certainly didn't help anything. If she is slowly opening up about something in the past, then she must feel she can trust you.

But I have done enough now to know that when I act in a way that I never would have dreamed of before, the response is positive. She might get mad, but I can see the dynamics shift and in fact things improve.

That is progress. Holding her feet to the fire. IDK about her, but a lot of manipulative women will take different approaches. When they finally see you are on to their game, I am crazy enough to think they finally give up........at least to a big degree.

[44tries]

I think all you can do is encourage her to seek IC. If she approached her mom and felt as if she was dismissed, that certainly didn't help anything. If she is slowly opening up about something in the past, then she must feel she can trust you.

This is what I did. I wasn't pushy, but I told her it sounds like she really needs to be able to talk to someone about it, and perhaps a counselor would be best since she said she would "never tell another soul" after what happened when she told her mom.

You are right, she definitely trusts me. I think she still feels a high level of trust and closeness with me, despite everything. I believe this is where all the "I need you and don't know how to live without you" stuff comes from. It just isn't in a romantic way right now.

That is progress. Holding her feet to the fire. IDK about her, but a lot of manipulative women will take different approaches. When they finally see you are on to their game, I am crazy enough to think they finally give up........at least to a big degree.

I hope you are right. After all my reading, here and the many books, etc, the problem seems so very clear to me now. I think she wants a happy, loving MR with me. It is pretty clear she does not truly want a real separation or to lose me from her life. She just doesn't believe our MR can be fixed or fulfilling and if nothing changes, she knows she would rather walk than go on with status quo. She also may naively think we can still be in each other's lives to a significant degree even if we D. At this point, she is telling me she is past the place of looking for hope or wanting to try together for change. But I have to think deep down, it is really what she longs for (feel free to tell me if I'm just delusional).

She doesn't respect me and that is the key. I KNOW this is what I have to fix and I know the things I need to do to make it happen. It is hard, slow work and now that I can so tangibly feel that everything rests on my ability to succeed, I do feel immense pressure. I am worried that if it doesn't work out and we eventually get divorced, I will always have the feeling that it was right there in front of me and I failed. I know it is possible she has her own emotional and maturity issues that could prevent success no matter what I do. But obviously right now I am focused on my part and I am trying to balance the need to push myself and work extremely hard, but also not apply too much pressure. I know the work I am doing will pay off for me personally no matter the outcome.

It helps to look back and know it has only been a little over two months of starting from zero to where I am now. In the beginning, I was clueless about the real problems and my own contributions. Now, I have invested countless hours learning and I have a roadmap. I have changed and continue to push everyday. There are steps forward and back. Yesterday, there was an incident that I don't think I handled the best way.

I mentioned in a previous post that I was going surfing with some new friends next weekend after W and I return from our trip. Last night, W freaked out about it when she realized I was actually intending to go. Went into full blown jealous, manipulation mode. She had started drilling me about the new friends a few days ago and I refused to answer her questions that were essentially the same old "is this a romantic thing?" stuff. She has been making snide comments about my refusal to answer ever since. So last night she launched into a contrived monologue about how it was unsafe to go on the surf trip as I barely knew the people and I was being so reckless and irresponsible, etc. She found a way to insult me and put me down (telling me I was always unaware and too trusting of people and had made a lot of questionable decisions in the past, referring to experiences that I had before we even met), while simultaneously trying to make it seem like the trip was a bad idea and I shouldn't go but not because of any personal problem she had with it. She even got her mom involved to try to prove to me that I was being reckless.

I did not give in and say I won't go, but I didn't stand up and tell her she was being crazy either. I wish I had a stronger response, but I didn't want to argue and that's what kept coming to mind. She wasn't telling me I wasn't allowed to go, which would have been a lot easier for me to know what to say. I will also admit she started to make me question myself. FWIW, I have only met the people once a few weeks ago at a meetup and we discussed surfing and I was invited to join this overnight trip they had already planned. They are similar in age and, like me, are foreigners to this country looking to make new friends and explore (hence why we met at a meetup). I don't think it is all that strange or dangerous. I am adventurous and perhaps too trusting, but I am also very pragmatic and to say that I have a history of making reckless decisions is ridiculous. I simply do not let fear of the evil in the world prevent me from experiencing life or seeing new places, people etc. As far as I'm concerned, W's tirade was completely out of jealousy and attempt to manipulate me out of the trip rather than any real fear for my safety.

We leave for our vacation tomorrow and I'm really hoping it goes well. I'm sure I will get plenty of opportunities to display changed behavior and I want to make the most of them. I am also reading through DR yet again, reevaluating the goals and checkpoints I had written down previously. It's funny, two of my original goals/positive signs were that she would end her A and that we would take a vacation together. I am happy and grateful those can already be checked off after a relatively short amount of a time. It's motivating and helps keep me positive, even though I can't really be sure how much that success was just happenstance vs a result of my work. My next goal is that she will come back to the bedroom (not sexually, that is many more steps away). MWD says the short-term goals should be something that can be achieved in ~2 weeks, so I am trying to formulate some that are more realistic in that time frame. Winning the small battles to regain respect is an omnipresent goal, but I need to find a better way to quantify it.

[SteveLW]

"You are right, she definitely trusts me. I think she still feels a high level of trust and closeness with me, despite everything. I believe this is where all the "I need you and don't know how to live without you" stuff comes from. It just isn't in a romantic way right now. "

44 this is huge. And you are in a better place than a lot of LBHs. Most of us had acted our way out of being trusted and having our WAWs feel close to use. It occurred slowly and over a long period of time.

"She doesn't respect me and that is the key. I KNOW this is what I have to fix and I know the things I need to do to make it happen. It is hard, slow work and now that I can so tangibly feel that everything rests on my ability to succeed, I do feel immense pressure. I am worried that if it doesn't work out and we eventually get divorced, I will always have the feeling that it was right there in front of me and I failed. I know it is possible she has her own emotional and maturity issues that could prevent success no matter what I do. But obviously right now I am focused on my part and I am trying to balance the need to push myself and work extremely hard, but also not apply too much pressure. I know the work I am doing will pay off for me personally no matter the outcome. "

This is why following sandi's advice right now is so important! She knows what it takes for a WW to start respecting their H again. Some of it will feel unnatural, unsafe, and even wrong. But it is like standing up to the bully at school. It feels unnatural because he is 6'4" and 250lbs of muscle. It feels unsafe because it will likely get you beat up. It feels wrong because running away feels right. But standing up to him, while the above is true and you will get beat up, will earn his respect.

You've got the right attitude. Knowing that wrong steps will undermine you, which will help you remain diligent. Don't give in to your instincts to do those wrong steps, stay strong, and make her respect you!

[44tries]

44 this is huge. And you are in a better place than a lot of LBHs. Most of us had acted our way out of being trusted and having our WAWs feel close to use. It occurred slowly and over a long period of time.

I am definitely grateful that there is still some warmth between W and I, and that all aspects of our relationship are not at a very low place. Don't get me wrong, there is obviously some level of closeness that we are missing. The intimacy slowly faded similarly to what you describe. It's like we have the closeness you might have with your best friend, but there should be more (as Sandi says, best friend is a demotion from spouse).

This is why following sandi's advice right now is so important! She knows what it takes for a WW to start respecting their H again. Some of it will feel unnatural, unsafe, and even wrong. But it is like standing up to the bully at school. It feels unnatural because he is 6'4" and 250lbs of muscle. It feels unsafe because it will likely get you beat up. It feels wrong because running away feels right. But standing up to him, while the above is true and you will get beat up, will earn his respect.

100%. Sandi is my guiding light and the perfect person to help with my particular problem. I try to follow all her advice as fully as possible. Your bully analogy is spot on; in fact my W has called herself a bully more than once so it might not even be a metaphor!

You've got the right attitude. Knowing that wrong steps will undermine you, which will help you remain diligent. Don't give in to your instincts to do those wrong steps, stay strong, and make her respect you!

Thanks for the encouragement, Steve. I strive to change my instinctual urges everyday. It's one thing to fight them (which is hard enough as it is), but I will consider it a real success when my instincts are shifted and no longer lead me down the wrong paths. Until then, I keep my eye on the ball and take the steps I know I need to, regardless.

[sandi2]

I can so tangibly feel that everything rests on my ability to succeed, I do feel immense pressure.

I just want to inject something, regarding your ability to succeed. The root problem is her lack of respect for you. That is what killed her feelings of sexual attraction. I have told you what you will need to do in order to have her show respect. Whether or not she feels the respect, is up to her. We can't force another person to feel a certain way. Normally, when a H commands respect, the W will begin to feel admiration for him. In her mind, it equates strength........which is the only thing waywards respect. At first, she may not like having to show him respect, especially when she is rebelling. If he will stick with it, her feelings will catch up.

That decision is ultimately up to her. She can decide to show her H proper respect, or live in a constant battle of wills with him. I have known some WW's who were so hard hearted and bent on doing things their way (big or small), that they would not give an inch. This is when the H has to say, "Enough", and dump her.

In my sitch, I was the one coming to the board and getting the tools, instead of my LBH. I also had knowledge of a lot of this information I share today. So, I knew I was suppose to respect my H. When the scripture tells wives to submit to their H, that means she is to honor/respect him. I knew that a long, long time before I had an A. But, I didn't feel respect for him as my H or as a man. When I finally made the decision to do the right thing, I ended all contact with OM. My actions were based on what I knew was the right thing to do.......they were not based on my feelings. I withheld sarcastic remarks/comebacks, watched my facial/body language, tone of voice, attitude, etc........so as not to deliberately show disrespect. In other words, I intentionally acted respectful toward my H, although I didn't have those feelings to match at the time. I'm not sure exactly when the feelings caught up with the actions, but I think it was after I truly felt remorse for the things I had done to my H. One day I noticed that it was not only showing respect, but I felt it, as well.

As you know, it takes me writing a book to get to my main point.....which I haven't done yet. I don't want you to feel as if the success of your MR rests solely on your shoulders. As a Christian, I do believe God holds the H accountable for a lot, but He also gave the W free will. Along with inheriting Adam's old sin nature, you can see how challenging a MR can be. You do your very best in holding her wayward feet to the fire, and the rest is up to her. If the M fails, it doesn't mean you failed to do your job as a man/husband. Okay? God is on your side, 44! He will give you the strength and insight to get through this hard time.

[Nutcrac]

Normally, when a H commands respect, the W will begin to feel admiration for him. In her mind, it equates strength........which is the only thing waywards respect.

Sandi2,

does this aspect apply to WAS too? my WAS has too much disrespect and anger towards me.

[fmly1st]

Sandi2,

Hi Sandi,

Just wanted to checkin and say hi. Not sure if you have seen my recent posts, but things are terrible. I think she is having an affair and her behavior indicates mlc or ww. Im really down and worried about my kids, my wife, and my own health. And im really dreading when i confirm the affair. Anyway, just wanted to touch base. Ty

[ovrrnbw]

Try not to hijack the thread you all.

[sandi2]

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Normally, when a H commands respect, the W will begin to feel admiration for him. In her mind, it equates strength........which is the only thing waywards respect.

does this aspect apply to WAS too? my WAS has too much disrespect and anger towards me.

Yes, it would apply to any W, IMHO.

[SteveLW]

44 what is the latest?!?


http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...496#Post2796496