How did I get to thread #5?
On your last point, you've been with this woman a longtime. So likely you can detect when she might not be being honest. I know that my wife has a way of saying no to something when the answer is really yes that reveals that the no is either soft or flat out not a no.
When I noticed she had lost weight last fall I jokingly said, "Are you going to leave me?" She said "No." with the body language that meant, "I am telling you no to save your feelings." Truth is by that point she was already feeling pangs of wanting to leave the marriage. Of course at the time I ignored it. I got the verbal answer I wanted so I buried the body language in the sand. Looking back I could see that her "I am telling you what you want to hear" body language was there. Even worse, the body language was almost like a "No, I wish I could but I don't see a way to leave."
So when we DB well, those that have been with our spouse for over 15, or 20 years can usually tell if their responses are genuine or not. I know earlier in my sitch she answered a lot of questions with the soft answer body language. My wife is a big of a Nice Girl. She will put others feeling and needs ahead of their own especially if she feels they deserve it. So she wants to answer your question in a way to spare your feelings.
From BD until about mid-Feb, there were times when she remembered she didn't think I deserved my feelings and needs to be above her so she was blunt. But there was a a lot of soft answers as she started noticing my changes.
In a nut shell, what I have is W saying, when cornered "No, I wish I could but I don't see a way to leave."
But actions that show differently. Much like sandi2 described earlier in another thread. I see more consideration and respect than I have seen in a decade. Not phony respect in an effort to deceive but honest respect.
Steve85, my W too lost some weight and started buying clothes years ago during her EA. I never say pictures of her, but of OM.
This is not the case as of current.
How did I get to thread #5?
It happens quickly!
How did I get to thread #5?
One post at a time,
Just like one step at a time.....
DBing is like sausage. Everbody likes it,
but nobody likes how it's made.
So I'm sitting here at 5:30 am on a Saturday reading about all these miserable situations and feeling sorry for my own self.
I think the hardest part of this whole thing is sometimes the thing to do is to do nothing. I read about younger LBHs and they often sit there and do nothing. I think to myself, my gosh man, do something. While I sit here thinking, no matter what you feel, just don't do anything.
I think to myself, my gosh man, do something.
That is known as the illusion of action. You feel like you have to show her how much you love her actions. The reality is that all you should be doing is moving forward and deciding want kinda of man you want to become. The rest will work itself out.
True LH, but if your W is in the middle of an A you need to do something for your own sanity and self-dignity.
Controlling others is a different thing.
But you are correct, yet action is the answer. Action directed at yourself. I say this to remind myself. I need it. Expectations get in the way.
We are here -we are all hurting- we are all here to support one another. From my short time here- I find keeping the mind occupied helps. Don't get me wrong- many times these negative thoughts come into your head and just drag you down like the titanic. But we still got to stay positive. As a friend put it... discard all stinkin thinkin. Good luck to you on your journey RR.
I haven't read the entire situation, but I feel your pain. It's hard when you wish there was something that can be done, wish that one certain action would shake them, wish they consider the kids, etc. it's even harder when all attempts have been exhausted. I'm sure we all go through the same motions.
My walk away does not have another woman, but my first husband did. So I feel the pain there too. what I can say is do not think that your spouse forgot all your positives. Believe me they do. Stay strong. Not doing anything, is doing something. As odd as it sounds. My ex told me when he came back how much he missed my sense of humor. And all along I thought I was never on his mind.
I shake my head at WAS's bc we all made a commitment to stick this relationship out when we clearly can walk away as quickly as they did. I can't promise that they will come back, or that the marriage will be salvaged, but what I can say is you will be glad and proud of yourself that you chose to make the commitment to stick with your spouse. It shows character.
Loves, I agree and appreciate that remark. I currently don't know if W has OM. She did in the past but swears there is no one now. I tend to believe her, I don't fully trust anything based on the past A. Once bitten....
What gets me is the level of effort with respect and consideration that had been missing for so long, now she shows, yet she claims she is on her way out. Very confusing.
Mature communication is apparently too much to expect. Anger is the product of feeling that you deserve something that you are being cheated out of. This doesn't mean that we shrug responsibility for contributing to a toxic R.
I believe most of us feel cheated.
RR
Keep thinking of you as the school year ends
How was mother s day
Hope you are well
Being an awesome RR
Busy GALing
Keeping expectations at zero
RR you've given me all kinds of support and incredible information. Stay strong . Be kind to yourself with lots of self care and stay positive.
Gordie, thanks for your concern.
Mothers Day, W expressed that she wanted to go to breakfast and we did. I stayed gone most of the day and I cooked dinner, W was happy and no drama.
This whole GAL thing has given me a good reason to take stock and tweak some things I had let stray. All good things in the large picture.
Where the ongoing struggle for me is the conflicting messages. As I have said, W shows more consideration and respect than I have seen in a decade. Once in a while, she will do something that seems to disregard my interest. Like plans to retrieve my D18 from school without discussing or input. And I have confronted her on these things in as constructive approach as possible, and W has listened without defense. Not to over analyze but there is a cognitive detachment there, like she just never thought how I might be interested or be involved in bringing my child home 800 miles away.
I sense some detachment from the marriage, yet I see the respect and a seeming desire to spend time and do things with me. D15 was gone to my sister's until Sunday night and we shopped and grilled and even had sex. No she did seem withdrawn during sex but not totally absent and she didn't seem to be doing it against her will.
Last I've heard her plans haven't changed, but I haven't seen any signs of execution. In fact, financially it seems unlikely at the moment.
Perhaps she is just keeping the peace until she exits?
W is not a phony person and especially lately seems to be committed to being true to herself.
Yes, I work at keeping expectations at zero. An ongoing battle.
Like my mom used to say. "You worry about you"
Thanks again for your concern.
R,
Thats all you can do is take it one day at a time, keep expectations at zero and let her go if she wants to go.
RR
The mixed messages are soul crushing
The summer before b d was magical
We went on vacation together
And had a ton of fun with the kids
And then she told me she did not want to be m
Still today there are times when she wants family time
And time when she wants to be a single woman
And not knowing what you will get on any one day can make me crazy
Your expectations kill you
Because you expect her to consider you in picking up your daughter
But she really is only thinking of herself
Sometimes she remembers to think of you
Other times not
The stories I could tell you
Question is do you choose to be patient
You are doing awesome at GAL
And being the best you
Hopefully she is noticing
But if not you still have a better you
Peace
Well, I'm being a better RR.
The lessons I've learned and continue to learn about Detachment and Differentiation of Self as well as what constitutes Controlling Behavior will benefit me regardless of what happens in my M.
LoneWlf, Thanks for your kind words. We tend to give better advice to others than we give ourselves. I think we remind ourselves when we advise others.
There are some great people here. People that seek understanding without judgment. People that seek understanding in their own sitch by helping others.
Well, I'm being a better RR.
The lessons I've learned and continue to learn about Detachment and Differentiation of Self as well as what constitutes Controlling Behavior will benefit me regardless of what happens in my M.
LoneWlf, Thanks for your kind words. We tend to give better advice to others than we give ourselves. I think we remind ourselves when we advise others.
There are some great people here. People that seek understanding without judgment. People that seek understanding in their own sitch by helping others.
Well said.
Any update on your W's proclamation that she is moving out? Have you seen any activity from her to suggest that she will do so in the next 2 weeks?
Any update on your W's proclamation that she is moving out? Have you seen any activity from her to suggest that she will do so in the next 2 weeks?
None whatsoever.
She continues to show that she wants to spend time with me. Respect and consideration are at an all-time high.
Not sure how this will ever transpire to a loss or recon. Right now I'm not focusing on it.
Well, it is funny you mention that. My wife and I, I feel, are in full blown R now. Remember she made a similar declaration of moving out, and after some initial activity towards that all efforts stopped. She remained "determined" for about another month after her efforts ceased. But after another month verbalized wanting to stay and even that she was recommitting to the marriage.
Now, here was what finally broke through (besides having a good MC too) was my just shutting up about the MR. She told our counselor that as we had fun together, and have fun, interesting, and stimulating conversation that her desire to stay grew. The MC then suggested going down to every other week on MC to help with that (since you spend so much time in MC talking about the MR).
I know sandi says that WWs need to have a big wake-up call, and in general that is probably true, but slowly, gradually, I watched the woman I knew prior to all of this slowly return. There are aspects of her that are healthier. She is much les likely to take things personally now, she is not afraid to stand up for herself and her thoughts and feelings, and in general she just doesn't take crap like she did a year ago. But you know what? I love that!
So RR it could be your W is on a similar trajectory, that slowing over time you guys will transition into R almost without realizing it. I don't know if she is open, at all, to MC, but if she is that can help. Our MC has had us reading books that my W would have had 0 interest in reading after BD.
Steve, that all sounds familiar. We did MC years ago and W pulled the plug. too much MR transparency and discussion for W.
I have no idea what this one is thinking/feeling. I go by actions that I am to only half believe.
In your sitch, and they're all different, all I will repeat is without proper R including remorse and a loss, I ended up here again. Perhaps my expectations are wrong but I desire a proper R this time.
I read and will copy from another article that I recently read. It all fits in with DB. I am considering increasing my efforts in these areas.
Less Talk
Up to this point, you probably have been talking too much. Start limiting the amount of communication (talking, texting, emailing, phone calls, etc.) you have with your spouse. Keep away from emotional conversation. If your spouse invites you to talk about how you feel, give an honest answer, but keep it brief. Restrict conversations to business-of-life issues (schedules, paying bills, responsibilities, children, etc.) and avoid bringing up relationship concerns. The key is to focus on communication that allows you to remain confident, calm, and in control.
Less Time
You should be less available to your spouse. I don't mean you should selfishly refuse to do anything with him/her, but I do mean you need to make sure your calendar includes some activities/events that are just for you (or you with the rest of your family). You are capable of finding meaning and enjoyment in life apart from your spouse; they need to experience that.
Just a quick update:
Not much has changed. School gets out this week and I see no signs that any progress is being made to move out. Nor has she mentioned in a few weeks.
W continues to demonstrate more consideration and respect toward me than she has in a decade. Is this simply the removal of pressure? IDK
For the most part, I have personally been okay. I have realized more and more about what control within the relationship consisted of.
I have been getting more exercise and other than our nightly watching of The Sopranos, I am pretty much MIA.
I may go into deeper depth about my self-realizations in another post once I have more time and sort my thoughts.
W continues to demonstrate more consideration and respect toward me than she has in a decade. Is this simply the removal of pressure? IDK
Most likely.
Forgive me forum for I have sinned. 


When we first get here we think our situation is different.
The more we read, the more we see we are more similar than unique. 


When we arrive we look for that trick that technique to snap this stranger out of there trance. 
After a while, we realize that there is no trick and the best practice is to move ahead. 
To regain our own inner peace. It is then and only then that our changes have any chance at being noticed.


We all have value. It is just no longer seen by the one that we need so desperately to see it.


But all is not lost. 
These stitches do all come with gifts. The W may grant you the gift of time. 
Time for you to realize where we got off track. Time to detach from a toxic environment. 
To realize how we have lost ourselves. While becoming a unit enmeshed we often lose autonomy. 
Our codependence on people and emotions beyond our own control has come at a great price. 
It is now that we have the opportunity to fix ourselves. 


Perhaps they will notice. Perhaps they will see the error of their own ways. Hopefully, we will get out of the way in time. 


Either way, we will be changed.
I don't know what caused the crazy coding. Perhaps cadet can fix it.
I'm not in the habit of writing prose but this can to me in the shower this morning.
I dont know what is causing this however I am happy that the post shows up and has not disappeared.
What kind of device are you using?
I can edit out those things but I have no clue why they appeared.
Cadet,
Thanks.
I typed the post in apple notes. When I copy/pasted it here it had no line breaks so I re-added. I did preview it and formatting looked fine. Once I posted it had the crazy characters.
I typed the post in apple notes.
Devices other than laptops and desktops are causing issues with the forum.
Until we upgrade the forum this will continue.
Typing directly into the reply box also helps.
Sorry you are having this issue.
Apple "Notes" is a notepad program within my laptop. I figured as much.
No problem, I just wanted to give the feedback.
Apple "Notes" is a notepad program within my laptop. I figured as much.
No problem, I just wanted to give the feedback.
OK - good to know - it is translating your post into something that the forum at this time can not read.
Thanks for the feedback.
So, yesterday I noticed my Ws paycheck which posted Wed seemed rapidly depleted. Last week she took $1200 out of savings without mentioning.
Now I say this because it triggered suspicion, but first, you have to understand that the point is that these things are not a large cause for alarm, but just a bit unusual based on history.
So, I decided to confront W in the least accusative way possible. The $1200 she claimed she paid toward D18 school and this weeks pay she said had got eaten up by health insurance etc.. She responded in a nondefensive way and I tend to believe her. I also asked her if she had any accounts that I was unaware of and if she was stockpiling funds elsewhere. She said no and looked me directly in the eye and didn't seem to be hiding anything nor defensive.
Sure she could be becoming a better lier. I don't think so. She seemed transparent and willing to disclose.
What does this mean? IDK
Does she still plan on making an exit? Who knows?
Is she continuing to demonstrate respect and consideration on and ongoing basis? Absolutely!
Last week she took $1200 out of savings without mentioning.
RR17,
You need to take care of your financial stuff ASAP because money will continue disappearing.
One day, back when I was still married, I noticed $10k missing. I asked my wife about it and her casual response was that she needed to put some money in her account. No big deal. That evening, I noticed another $3K was transferred. I asked about that, and she had yet another excuse; it was casual, no big deal. After that second transfer, I decided to open an account and do a transfer of my own. She hit the roof.
Your wife will drain you dry and leave you with little or nothing. Get ahead of your financial stuff right now. Life is a lot easier if you've got some cash on hand; you'll need it when the lawyers get involved.
RR17, that would raise my suspicion as well. But I guess time will tell. I'll keep praying for you guys and for her heart to soften.
I will say that the payment to D18's school is easily verifiable. But that is up to you. I probably would follow up on it but I can't tell you that you should.
I understand, I do. I wouldn't have shared it if it weren't a cause for concern. If I lock down the savings, stuff will surely hit the fan. For now, I plan to keep a keen eye on things.
I am going to verify the college payment and further look through her recent spending. She makes good money in a small company and if she wants to hide money she could. She gets paid weekly with bonuses, reimbursements monthly. If she covers her share of the bill and stashes hidden savings this is the worst I would expect from her.
I'd still like to know as we are still married and I don't hide money.
After my last post, I spoke to her on her way out the door. I had plans for dinner tonight that are weather permitting. Coupled with Memorial weekend Friday traffic I told her they may change I could let her know. She had expressed that she would probably drive out and eat with her parents.
I shared that I would know by 2pm at the latest. Should I let her know or did she just want to plan on doing separate things?
She said, no, please let her know.
I know it is imposable to know what these little incidences really mean. I know that W may be appeasing me to make things easier. But I also have 20 years experience with this person and she honestly seems to want to spend time together.
Years ago during her A it wasn't the same. She doesn't or should I say hasn't done the duel life stuff very well. Anyway, who knows?
No way to know for sure RR. I'll admit that the money thing is a bit of a red flag, and that her being nice and showing respect could be act until she's out of the house.
Or there may be nothing to the money thing, it could be exactly what she said it was, and she could really be turning back to the MR and wanting to spend time with the new and improved RR!
To be honest, I would say until you know otherwise to assume the latter. I Corinthians 13:5 says that Love thinketh no evil. Meaning that love dictates that we think the best of the people we love. So just operate like the latter is the case, until you know different.
One big difference now is a lack of an air of self-entitlement. Sure she could be getting better at hiding it but I find it hard to believe.
Trust, yet verify.
Not only is she more considerate and respectful, she handles criticism much better. She doesn't take everything personally. Not in an "I'm so out'a here" kind of way. More like an I'm going to try to stop and consider what I'm hearing and not react, but respond, kind of way.
Sometimes you don't see the faults or degree of the toxicity until the pressures are gone. I think this applies to both.
RR - one of the things I've heard in IC is that we are wired so that we let our past dictate what are future expectations of the person are. A simple gesture or expression can trigger a negative impulse in our spouse. It is at these moments that we have to stop then BREATHE and the objectively assess each situation based on it's present merits. Not falling to the default mode with is often negative. I hope your situation turns out well. Stay positive- stay well!
Does anyone else have these days where you are ready to throw in the towel?
Not the "I feel so out of control and don't see a way out" kind of feelings, but the "I can't believe she has put us through this. Perhaps I am better off without her" kinds of feelings?
Yes, that's how I woke up this morning.
Yep. Hang in there. Yesterday was that day for me. Just remember that the bad days will pass. Some days you just need to do what you have to in order to survive. Post here. Reach out to folks to talk to. Find distractions that work for you. You can do it.
RR we are all here for each other. This by far is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. There will be obstacles in our journey. We need to stay focused and stay calm and stay positive. When things feel crappy - immerse yourself in something that makes you feel real good. A good movie- a good book- a good friend. Just do something tat will make your soul smile. Stay well!!
Thanks you two.
I'll take these feelings over those of hopelessness.
There is a certain encouragement in knowing that things will never be as they were and that you now better see where they were wrong. Both in myself and the W as well as the dynamic.
In a way it's part of detachment, I believe.
Yea, I want things to work out. But if they don't I'll be just fine. New opportunities will arise.
Haven't posted in over a week so I thought I'd touch base.
Well, May came and went and W didn't move out nor did she show any signs of movement in that direction. Not until last night, but I'll get back to this.
Meanwhile, except for any romantic show of affection, W has seemed happy and things have been peaceful. She has been showing respect and courtesy and a continuation of the positive behaviors that I have described recently. Sex has been much less frequent, but it has happened.
Although I have stopped snooping, I have seen very little sign of any OM. Once in a while, something will trigger suspicion but I just pay attention, try to give the benefit of a doubt and it goes away. If there is something going on it is very different than last time as she doesn't seem to be primping, working out or in that "selfish fog" that was evident 5 years ago when she was preparing for an actual meet up with her EA partner. She has put on a few lbs and I believe that she would be more concerned if she had an OM.
So about last night. A little background first. W has a good job and makes good money. First 12 years of M she was a stay at home mom and I supported financially. Supported quite well until the recession and my industry changed and we were forced to live off of savings and retirement and although we didn't suffer total financial ruin, we did make major adjustments to lifestyle to maintain the most important parts. Good schools etc. (as I'm sure many of you have similar experiences).
Fast forward to now and although much of my industry has recovered there are many changes and making money is trickier and sometimes far between. Thank goodness W was able to find a great fit with regular paydays. I still make more but it can be long coming. Anyway
Last night while looking at her account she was a purchase I made for nonessentials from her account. She usually loads a petty account for me and that is what I use. This week the funding hadn't happened and I used her account. We are talking less than $100.
So just prior to going to bed in our separate rooms, I guess she noticed and went ballistic. Ranted about how I needed to make some changes and how she couldn't keep this boat afloat.
For once I just listened and said "I'm sorry". Nothing else. She continued and unlike usual I didn't defend my action I just let her go off. This seems her only way to communicate her dissatisfaction. Bottle it up and eventually explode. Usually, I engage the fight and come back with facts and logic until she gets dismissive and walks out. Not this time. I refused to fight. I apologized, more than once and just let her vent. Now there's a 180.
Was the outburst really about a few dollars? Who knows? Is it a sign of change in the air? Who knows?
Perhaps she was just due.
Either way, although I did lose sleep over it last night, I'm planning our next encounters so that I proceed in a methodic manner and don't let my ego and emotions get the best. Advice and incite appreciated.
Oh, one more thing. I plan to use this outburst to establish boundaries.
Something like:
"If you want to discuss finances, I'd be happy to sit down at a reasonable time and in a civilize fashion" now here is where I get stuck. As for an effect. I can't find the words that don't sound accusative and most likely incite defensiveness.
Color me shocked on the moving thing. I knew she wouldn't actually move. It was a pipedream
RR, good job on the 180. That sounds huge. I am also stuck on how to set a boundary on that. I almost would say just let it lie for now. Maybe it was a one off incident and she won't repeat. If it does happen again, then that will give you the opportunity to say something like "please do not speak to me in that fashion. I am sorry you are upset, and I will gladly discuss it with you rationally when you can do so civilly." Be calm and friendly when you say it.
Hopefully someone else will weigh in with better advice.
"Well, May came and went and W didn't move out nor did she show any signs of movement in that direction. Not until last night, but I'll get back to this."
Did she address this in her ranting over the spending? I don't see where you got back to the subject of her moving out.
No mention of moving. I can only wonder if it would have if I would have engaged the fight. This is first outburst or even show of anger in months.
I think the fact that it didn't come up says a lot. But I still don't know for sure.
So get this. W funded my petty account.
Comes home from being all sweet and says that she is about to quit her job. Then we walk to get dinner. On the way home her voice started cracking and she nearly shed a tear. She almost never cries. I asked her what was wrong and she just said she had a lot on her shoulders. I wondered if I should put my arm around her but I didn't. She snapped out and was fine.
I need to pull back and gain some detachment.
Well done on keeping calm and keeping your composure.
So get this. W funded my petty account.
Comes home from being all sweet and says that she is about to quit her job. Then we walk to get dinner. On the way home her voice started cracking and she nearly shed a tear. She almost never cries. I asked her what was wrong and she just said she had a lot on her shoulders. I wondered if I should put my arm around her but I didn't. She snapped out and was fine.
I need to pull back and gain some detachment.
Very interesting update! RR I really believe that has May turned into June the reality of everything is starting to hit her. And she is realizing that her pipe dream is just that. Talking about quitting her job is the exact opposite of moving out in 5/18! And her showing emotion is a clear sign that she may be coming back to MR. WAWs/WWs do not go back on their declarations lightly. It is difficult for them to go from "I am done, I am out of here" to "I want to work on things, I want to stay". Changing their mind like that is often slow, and emotionally draining for them. Initially there may even be some "I am stuck here" depression that they have to work through.
But keep up the great work RR! You are DBing well.
Way to stay strong RR. Not sure I can offer you advice, but you have my support on your efforts.
Thank you, guys. Your support means a lot.
Very interesting update! RR I really believe that has May turned into June the reality of everything is starting to hit her. And she is realizing that her pipe dream is just that. Talking about quitting her job is the exact opposite of moving out in 5/18! And her showing emotion is a clear sign that she may be coming back to MR. WAWs/WWs do not go back on their declarations lightly. It is difficult for them to go from "I am done, I am out of here" to "I want to work on things, I want to stay". Changing their mind like that is often slow, and emotionally draining for them. Initially there may even be some "I am stuck here" depression that they have to work through.
But keep up the great work RR! You are DBing well.
It's taken a while to get to this point. If there is a lesson to be learned, it's follow the rules. Work to get your masculine swagger back. Threat the W like you would when you were single and just some woman did this crap to you. Tell them what you would like to see happen (lighthouse) and pull away. Limit your interactions. Stay mysterious yet pleasant. Avoid confrontation.
So I found out that W recently changed her email password. At first, I blew it off as no big deal. There could be a legitimate reason. She told me,.. when I asked if she had changed any other passwords because I was having trouble logging in to a bank account. She also got mad for being accused. I didn't accuse her. I asked her.
When she got mad on the phone and then became dismissive. I sent the following texts.
M: "In case you haven't realized it, I fight suspicion every day. This is not an exaggeration. I do. Sometimes it is something you do or say. Sometimes it is completely unjustified. But it shows its face every day.
If I didn't openly accuse you it is because I didn't choose to. If I didn't choose the right words, I guess I didn't think you had anything to hide."
"Refusing to restore or at least try to restore my trust, comes with baggage. Leaving it to me to simply decide that I am going to will myself to trust that you aren't still plotting behind my back has taken a lot of self control. A whole lot.
I'm telling you this because I don't think you even considered it.
I know you have been through a lot. I know that you are struggling with stuff at work.
If I don't accuse you of something and you feel accused, I'm not the [censored].
And like you, I don't like to be falsely accused."
Yeah, I know I probably should have suffered in silence, but sometimes feeling just slip out.
She never responded to the texts (not unusual). she made dinner last night and the evening was typical with no mention. After dinner, my D15 asked if she and I could go for a ride. So we were gone until about an hour before bed.
Now I'm awake at 2am and thinking about the email password change. In the past when I have seen or heard things and blown them off only for the thought to pop up later, there has turned out to be something behind it.
An idea has popped into my head and appears to be staying. I've decided to put it out here before I give it too much more thought. Any helpful opinions are welcome.
First off I realize that I have to be willing to go forward with it and I am.
I am seriously thinking about calmly asking her if we could meet outside the home sometime this weekend to discuss things.
The just of the conversation would go like this. (Obviously all calm):
I have been waiting and wondering for 6 months if you planned to move out and take my children in May. Now May has come and gone and you are still here. Not even a word or update from you.
During these 6 months, I have done some thinking and I have reached some conclusions I would like to share.
Thinking back, I don't think you were ever that "In Love" with me. I think you were ready to settle down and I was there. We had 2 kids and you poured your love into them. 10 years later you no longer need me. You started looking for someone that you were actually really wild about.
Either way, we were a team and did it together and for that, I will always have a respect for you. We have 2 great daughters.
If in fact, you still want to go. Let's start planning how we can split in a way that doesn't have to be ugly and we can both get started living our lives.......
(obviously, there will be more, but you get the point)
I have never been so ready to have this talk. Detachment does this to you. I would have to be prepared emotionally and commit to never lose my cool regardless of what W comes back with.
I know that ultimately I have to make this decision. I just want to run it past y'all before I pull the trigger.
As said before any helpful input is welcome. I hope that some of the experts that I may have miffed in the past might chime in
RR - I'm here for support and wish you well but one of the things that I'm told is to not ask the question unless you are prepared for the answer. Wishing the best outcome- Blessings!
RR,
Your situation is a tough one. I cant imagine living together so long in that state. You are a strong person!
At this point, I think I would be ready to have that conversation as well. However, that is completely personal and up to you. If you think you are ready for a divorce do it. If you still have any doubts or uneasiness I wouldnt do it because it seems like a sign you arent truly there yet.
Good luck either way!
Thinking back, I don't think you were ever that "In Love" with me. I think you were ready to settle down and I was there. We had 2 kids and you poured your love into them. 10 years later you no longer need me. You started looking for someone that you were actually really wild about.[/b]
Bad move dude. Does this paragraph say RR is a fuching awesome catch and you are lucky to have me?
You are looking for pity from her. If you are done then be done and file. If not, keep moving forward.
RR, the big question is do you want a D? IF you do, then have the talk. If you do not, then do not.
The lighthouse wants R, is standing there ready to R. Yes it doesn't move itself, it wants for the WAW to come to it. But the point of being a lighthouse is to be there when the WAW comes back the MR and is ready to work.
So the answer to the above question is everything. It is within your right to do that. But understand that having this conversation with her will a) put her on the defensive b) regress on any progress you have made c) increase the probably of you Ding.
I would suggest highly to reconsider. I said she will be defensive. Likely she is embarrassed that she didn't live up to her threat (moving out in May). This will cause her to retreat (this conversation will be pressure, no doubt, and the WAW/WW shrinks from pressure. This will result in her moving back towards leaving assuming she has moved away from it.
RR, the email PW thing is troubling, I won't defend it. But does it have to mean everything? Do you want to blow up the whole thing over it? Can you just let it lie for now, continue working hard on DBing like you have been, and see where things go? Or pull the pin on the grenade and throw it into the middle of the MR?
All of this is predicated on the first question, do you want a D?
Thanks, for the quick responses. If I'm going to do this, this weekend, I need to decide soon. I don't think pulling this grenade assures D. I don't. I can do this and still be the lighthouse. Why not. Fact is I am tired of living with the threat. I am tired of living in limbo. If she is cheating again? I already said that was a deal breaker,..and I am a man of my word.
Thinking back, I don't think you were ever that "In Love" with me. I think you were ready to settle down and I was there. We had 2 kids and you poured your love into them. 10 years later you no longer need me. You started looking for someone that you were actually really wild about.[/b]
Bad move dude. Does this paragraph say RR is a fuching awesome catch and you are lucky to have me?
You are looking for pity from her. If you are done then be done and file. If not, keep moving forward.
LH19,
Lol. RR17 is a fuching awesome catch. That doesn't mean that she felt I was the love of her life. At the time we got married I was a career building rock star. Still, rock stars connect with people that don't truly rock their world. Yes I'm reading into this but I do believe that once the girls were born, that is where she focused her love. If she thought I was such an awesome catch, she wouldn't risk losing me now, right?
I'm really not looking for pity. I am ready to force her hand. Read it again imagining an a mater of fact, I don't give a fuch attitude. (It's hard to convey tone in written context)
LW,
thanks for your support. I trust that one day you will see my advices to you as constructive. They come from nothing but concern. Participation Trophies offer positive reinforcement. Losing is where growth and real lessons are learned.
RR, the big question is do you want a D? IF you do, then have the talk. If you do not, then do not.
The lighthouse wants R, is standing there ready to R. Yes it doesn't move itself, it wants for the WAW to come to it. But the point of being a lighthouse is to be there when the WAW comes back the MR and is ready to work.
So the answer to the above question is everything. It is within your right to do that. But understand that having this conversation with her will a) put her on the defensive b) regress on any progress you have made c) increase the probably of you Ding.
I would suggest highly to reconsider. I said she will be defensive. Likely she is embarrassed that she didn't live up to her threat (moving out in May). This will cause her to retreat (this conversation will be pressure, no doubt, and the WAW/WW shrinks from pressure. This will result in her moving back towards leaving assuming she has moved away from it.
RR, the email PW thing is troubling, I won't defend it. But does it have to mean everything? Do you want to blow up the whole thing over it? Can you just let it lie for now, continue working hard on DBing like you have been, and see where things go? Or pull the pin on the grenade and throw it into the middle of the MR?
All of this is predicated on the first question, do you want a D?
Steve85,
Always appreciate your perspective.
Do I want a D? No, but I am ready for whatever is next. I have tolerated limbo for too long. I am done wondering what the EM PW change means. I slept about 4 hours last night and I'm tired of losing sleep over her crap.
I have begun fantasizing about what being single again looks like, and it ain't too bad. Why not do it before I turn 60?
If I do this, I will work some Lighthouse clause into the speech.
"If you decide you truly want to try to reconcile, I am here. "
So the answer to the above question is everything. It is within your right to do that. But understand that having this conversation with her will a) put her on the defensive b) regress on any progress you have made c) increase the probably of you Ding
Yes, she will be defensive. That's okay
I don't think it will regress any progress. I know it will increase the chance. I'm aware. I don't think it assures D.
You said something to the effect that once her deadline came and went she probably realized the reality of it all. Well, one thing this will do is serve up a big dose of reality.
Remeber I am approaching this with a very matter of fact attitude. No sadness. No blame. Just shyt or get off the pot; and I'm prepared for whichever you choose.
If you decide you want to try to reconcile, I am here.
If You Want To Take The Island - Burn the Friggin Boats
If you are truly ready to file which I think you are BSing yourself I would say something like this:
W we have been sleeping in separate beds now for almost a year. I understand this has been very difficult for you but I can no longer live my life in limbo anymore. I love you and I adore you and I would really like for us to get into counseling and work this out. Listen carefully to her response and validate when necessary. If she agrees to counseling excellent! If not you file.
You have to be congruent with your words. No lighthouse BS I will be waiting as plan B.
I just want to warn you ahead of time 10 times out of ten you are not going to get the answer you are looking for.
Good luck!
Well as I said it is well within your rights and power to do RR. I wish you the best in whatever you choose. I think sometimes posters give these types of ultimatums thinking it will cause their spouse to want to R. So I wanted you to be prepared for the likely outcome. As I said WSs/WASs tend to recoil from pressure and pursuit. So likely she will fall back on "I am moving out and getting a D" since that was her proclamation. People do not like to go back on proclamations.
I advocate a wait and see approach. Time tends to be what WSs/WASs need to "overcome" their BD proclamations. Pressuring them to choose before that time has elapsed will 99.5% of the time result in them adhering to those proclamations.
You seem content with either path so maybe you are ready to have that heart-to-heart. But only you know that. Please keep us updated.
Point taken, Steve.
But I'm not putting any pressure, no ultimatum. I am merely suggesting that we get proactive about an amicable split if in fact, that is still what she wants. I am in fact removing pressure. No?
I may be removing some of the mystery of my personal state. Her time has elapsed.
There is no reason to expedite this possible plan. I feel fortunate that I have this group to bounce things off of.
Again if I am missing something bring it on. I feed off of others perspectives. Once I pull the pin, I can't replace it.
If you are truly ready to file which I think you are BSing yourself I would say something like this:
W we have been sleeping in separate beds now for almost a year. I understand this has been very difficult for you but I can no longer live my life in limbo anymore. I love you and I adore you and I would really like for us to get into counseling and work this out. Listen carefully to her response and validate when necessary. If she agrees to counseling excellent! If not you file.
You have to be congruent with your words. No lighthouse BS I will be waiting as plan B.
I just want to warn you ahead of time 10 times out of ten you are not going to get the answer you are looking for.
Good luck!
I may be BSing myself. Will we ever know until the time comes?
Right now I'm just looking for any answer.
As for Lighthouse, I didn't say that I would be waiting. Oh no. Today I am still open. Tomorrow? I can't make any promises.
I remember getting dumped decades ago, a couple of times, only for the woman to come back later and find out I have moved on. No plan B here.
W we have been sleeping in separate beds now for almost a year. I understand this has been very difficult for you but I can no longer live my life in limbo anymore. I love you and I adore you and I would really like for us to get into counseling and work this out. Listen carefully to her response and validate when necessary. If she agrees to counseling excellent! If not you file.
I like your choice of words. I will see if I can better temper my message.
Yes, asking her to make a decision is pressure. Again, if you are at the point where you don't want to wait any longer then it may be appropriate pressure.
One other word of caution, even if she says she agrees to the pro activity and amicability, and says she stills wants a D. Likely the actual work of filing, etc will fall to you. This is typical WAS/WS behavior. In the first two months of my sitch my WW pushed me to "file" several times. When it comes to D they want it, but they don't want to do the D work.
As far as she is concerned, there is no decision to make. She made it and I am to understand that it still stands until further notice. I know this because she informed me that unless I hear otherwise I am to know that whatever she said still stands.
Lol, I know how stupid it sounds. They keep you in the dark so they can control you.
I'm not filing squat. I will help her find a place and or will start looking for my own place. I will help her see how the math is going to work.
Steve, you know this is all about the PW change. I have to draw a line somewhere and if she is or is heading toward a new OM, this is inevitable.
RR,
See as I suspected you are not ready to file so do not bring up any R talks. You are trying to get a reaction out of her to make the pain go away.
Until you get to a place where you love and value yourself enough to stop putting up with this BS just continue to move forward and get a little better each day.
Do not move out of the house.
Yes LH19,
I am trying to get a reaction. No so much for pain but I have lived in Limbo for 6 months.
I'm not filing because, at this time, today, I don't want a D. I am willing to accept it. If it is to happen, I want here to do it.
Until you get to a place where you love and value yourself enough to stop putting up with this BS just continue to move forward and get a little better each day.
BINGO! I do believe I am there. I am not putting up with this BS. That is the point.
RR,
Yes limbo is painful!!!! I lived it for 2.5 years and as I read here once it's soul sucking.
What reaction are you trying to get? You are right I never loved you blah, blah, blah. or oh no honey I love you so much let's make it work. Your not gonna get either. You are just gonna become more unattractive to her.
You are not there or you would communicate to her in a loving way that you can't do limbo anymore and if she doesn't want work on the marriage you will file. When someone changes the terms of a relationship that you don't agree with you walk and you never look back.
There is nothing wrong with filing if you are done. There is nothing wrong for standing for your marriage if you are not.
Why do you want to be with a women who doesn't want to be with you?
Its actions that will turn this around and it is on her terms not yours unless you file.
I know this is harsh $hit and this is very hard but I am trying to help you work through the thought process.
Again I am not telling you to file I am just reading between the lines of the BS your spewing right now because you are upset about the PW change which is rightfully so.
RR, my point was that the R talk will not result in limbo going away UNLESS YOU TAKE THE STEPS TO MAKE LIMBO GO AWAY AFTER THE TALK.
If you want to ask her to move out, then do it. But don't expect it will happen fast or soon. WWs are notorious for dragging their feet on this kind of thing.
Do not move out of the house. That would be a mistake, almost every DBing expert agrees with that.
Yes I understand it is about the PW changes, and the emotions (attachment) you are feeling because of that. That is why you should take some time to consider things. Just read STH's thread, he confronted and now he is dealing with the aftermath. Most LBSs have a likely outcome (one that favors them) in their mind when they take these kinds of steps and it rarely works out that way.
Again, no one would blame you if 6 months in limbo is too much for you and you want to take steps to end things. But expecting her to take action after a R talk is not likely to incite that action.
Thanks, Steve and LH19.
So in the process of taking some time to consider things. A version of this talk just kind of happened.
Sunday morning D15 left for the beach with a church group and we were left alone. After making coffee I decide that the time was right and I tried to initiate.
She stood there like a sad little girl and said: "I don't want to". I said okay, how come? who do you feel you are cheating on? She said she felt she was cheating on herself. I validated and a version of the planned discussion just slipped out.
She is not blatantly defiant these days. Nor is she very empathic. She listened and until the end when I think she felt some guilt. I felt heard. Some highlights:
She had previously described feeling held hostage earlier, so I used the same words to explain how I felt since she bomb dropped that she was moving out in May and now that May had come and gone. No update or anything.Blah blah..
She looked confused and I asked did she understand. She said it made sense but she never considered it.
I explained and reminded her that I had made mistakes and was sorry but had never hit nor cheated on her. That after all we had been through, why not communicate like mature adults and respect the feeling of the other? If you still want to go, why not tell me in a way other than an emotional outburst that I never know if it is honest or is just said in the heat of an argument. When you say you don't always feel heard, perhaps it is due to the delivery.
I also explain that if she felt that I didn't trust her, it was because she refused to take the steps to regain that trust from 4 years ago.
I reminded her that regardless of what happens with our R she would benefit from having my trust.
She said she wasn't even sure she knew what to do. BS, she never tried to find out either. Some sort of hold back punishment?
So a lot more was said and I stayed calm and tried not to sound too accusative. She listened, yet never seemed to feel the need to offer much explanation. But didn't respond with too many excuses either.
Like I said I didn't plan to hit her with this talk, it just kind of was drawn out.
We both pulled back yesterday but are cordial today.
RR this is why I cautioned against this. I know the PW change was bugging you too death. But being detached would have meant you didn't care and let it go. I am also going to call you out on the "it wasn't planned". What did you think would happen when you tried to initiate? That she would say yes and you'd go to town? Or that likely she'd say no and you'd start questioning her?
RR I feel you were at a critical point. Must like I was back at the end of February. Critical points are times to pull back pressure and pursuit, not engage in it.
What't done is done. We all stumble in DBing, and make mistakes. Likely you feel unfulfilled by the R talk, most of the time we LBSs feel that way after an R talk. We gets lots of maybes and I don't knows. That is why they are counterproductive. So get back on the horse and keep DBing.
Being detached doesn't mean you will tolerate betrail in your own house.
Steve, you are right, I am at a critical point. I'm reaching the end of my patience. I'm beginning to feel like to fool that hung on too long.
What did I expect when I initiated? I didn't expect anything other than the common courtesy of an honest answer.
Based on her recent mood I thought she would be into it. I expected nothing.
As for being unfulfilled? I wouldn't say that. I've seen some movement. I got to say and was listened to for the first time in months. If this expedites her exit. So be it. I can say I don't regret having this R talk. It put her in her feminine energy. Last night we went to dinner and she seemed better than ever.
I'm kind of done tippy-toeing around her feelings while suppressing my own.
She is leaving to fish my daughter out of college today. Hopefully, she will have some time to reflect.
Me? I'm going to enjoy myself.
You never realize how much you are still not detached until your W leaves for a few days and you feel this pressure drop. No basing your own own state of happiness on the reactions you are receiving.
Being detached doesn't mean you will tolerate betrail in your own house.
Steve, you are right, I am at a critical point. I'm reaching the end of my patience. I'm beginning to feel like to fool that hung on too long.
What did I expect when I initiated? I didn't expect anything other than the common courtesy of an honest answer.
Based on her recent mood I thought she would be into it. I expected nothing.
As for being unfulfilled? I wouldn't say that. I've seen some movement. I got to say and was listened to for the first time in months. If this expedites her exit. So be it. I can say I don't regret having this R talk. It put her in her feminine energy. Last night we went to dinner and she seemed better than ever.
I'm kind of done tippy-toeing around her feelings while suppressing my own.
She is leaving to fish my daughter out of college today. Hopefully, she will have some time to reflect.
Me? I'm going to enjoy myself.
Actually detached does mean that. It means what she does and says no longer affects you. Also, while you see the PW as a betrayal, there is a long way from changing an email PW and having sex with OM in the marital bed. What you are calling betrayal is really just a lack of transparency, not betrayal.
Your last post was exactly what I was getting at. Detachment is not something that merely do. It is something we live. Yes we can fake it until we make it, but we haven't made it until we no longer even have to try. It just becomes natural.
Actually detached does mean that. It means what she does and says no longer affects you. Also, while you see the PW as a betrayal, there is a long way from changing an email PW and having sex with OM in the marital bed. What you are calling betrayal is really just a lack of transparency, not betrayal.
Your last post was exactly what I was getting at. Detachment is not something that merely do. It is something we live. Yes we can fake it until we make it, but we haven't made it until we no longer even have to try. It just becomes natural.
Point well taken Steve. Detachment does mean not caring. As for the whole PW thing? W said she would be transparent. Said she wanted to restore my trust. She lied. I consider it betrayal.
I believe that there are degrees of detachment. The day I become completely detached I will no longer desire any reconciliation.
Update:
So W and D19 came home from college this afternoon. D19 takes off to have dinner with her friend and WAW asks if I will follow her to return the rental car. I agree and D15 rides along. WAW explains how D15 is joining friends and could we go to dinner a little early? I agree.
After dinner D15 asks can we pick up a male friend and drop them off at another teen's home. So we pick this guy up and I don't chat on the ride to the destination. WAW makes some small talk and the teens catch up. I deliver the two and we ride home. I stay quiet. No real reason but I was tired and besides, I am recommitted to "the rules".
W showers and I catch up on emails.
W comes in and asks if I'm okay. This is unusual in its self.
I just kind of shrugged and asked "why"
Well, I should have realized this was just a segway to what she really wanted to say. She lit into me for being so rude to D15s friend.
I said I don't believe I was rude. I said hi and that was it.
She went on about how my Ds avoided me because I never seemed showed interest in there lives.
I don't believe this. Both my Ds like to spend time alone riding around after dinner listening to music. Obviously the share girl things with their mom and if they want to get away with something she tends to be more of an enabler. I ask questions like who, what where and how. All dad type concerns.
I honestly believe her point was to hurt me. Not to understand. Not out of concern. After her typical passive aggressive dismissiveness. Which I pointed out and she seemed to try to curtail. Old habits die hard. I refused to argue. I did defend my actions with facts. But the conversation ended and I left.
Reflecting on this convo and its accusations, I made some realizations. I guess I've known but it is brought to the forefront.
What has become more apparent is a triangulation dynamic.
I enjoy spending time alone with my D19
I enjoy spending time alone with my D15
I enjoy spending time alone with my wife
Put either D with W and it's not a lot of fun.
Anyway, Happy Fathers Day all you LBSs.
Several days later and I since confirmed my initial thoughts. I did come home that night at told W that I would say something to D15.
Next morning I apologized if it seemed that I was rude to her friend. She blew it off. It didn't seem like a big deal.
Seems W who had just come home from retrieving D19 from college had taken and exaggerated the incident in order to project at me. Who knows what the real reason was?
Perhaps she was tired from the drive. I don't think she resented handling the retrieval herself.
Anyway, a day later and W seems back to nornalish. I've not really been concerned as I have been focused on other things.
RR it was good to see you reached out to D to make peace even though it did not seem like a big deal. You were man enough and handled it well. Good luck on your journey!
Thanks, LW.
In typical WAW fashion, W didn't see it that way. She was focused on the difference between the D15s concern one moment to another. At least that's how she put it. Like somehow her initial outrage was belittled. Who cares?
I suspect it had very little to do with my actions and more to do with Ws state.
She can learn to communicate like an adult or my efforts are all a waste.
So, change is in the air. Or so it seems.
Since D19 is home from school W has been sleeping on the couch. Well, I guess I should have realized that wouldn't take long to get old.
D15 has a large room with twin beds and this is where she slept at Christmas when D18 came home. Not sure and I'm not asking.
So, going through the morning rituals and in passing, W looks "down". I ask what is wrong, expecting it to be me, and she says that she doesn't have a place here.
Not in a time for me to go run off way, but a whoa is me, way. I replied "Sorry you feel that way." and kept moving.
She continued to mope around until she left for work. This is the first time I have seen W look sad in quite a while. She has been full of confidence and seemingly in charge for several months.
Could this be the start of a sense of Loss?
Could this be the start of a sense of Loss?
Most likely it's just constipation. A good dump and she'll be back into her usual routine.
So, change is in the air. Or so it seems.
Since D19 is home from school W has been sleeping on the couch. Well, I guess I should have realized that wouldn't take long to get old.
D15 has a large room with twin beds and this is where she slept at Christmas when D18 came home. Not sure and I'm not asking.
So, going through the morning rituals and in passing, W looks "down". I ask what is wrong, expecting it to be me, and she says that she doesn't have a place here.
Not in a time for me to go run off way, but a whoa is me, way. I replied "Sorry you feel that way." and kept moving.
She continued to mope around until she left for work. This is the first time I have seen W look sad in quite a while. She has been full of confidence and seemingly in charge for several months.
Could this be the start of a sense of Loss?
Are the Ds maybe starting to be assertive that she needs to give the MR a chance? It sounds like D15 maybe told her she shouldn't be in her room? That is the kind of thing that can make a WAW/WW stop and take notice. That maybe it isn't going to be all doves delivering blankets and bluebirds whistling happy songs. Her Cinderella dream of D15 and D19 being supportive and all smiles starts to shatter it can shatter the entire delusion.
Steve, you mean like the W communicated her intentions to the Ds?
lol, fat chance.
They know somethings up because of the sleeping arrangements, but they, for the most part, stay out of it. No honest discussion has been had, that I am aware of.
In typical fashion, they are probably taking advantage of their freedoms and she is feeling frustrated with that. She would never express this dissatisfaction until an emotional outburst. D19 started taking our extra car and I noticed curb rash on a new tire. I took a pic and sent to W. No commentary, just a pic. She shared her concern to me about it.
D19s boxes are still in the foyer since Saturday after returning from college. I haven't said a word about it. (atypical for me)
Doodle, not sure where that came from but anything's possible.
Perhaps the fact that I am not trying to control Ds has made her realize being a single parent is not all lollipops and rainbows.
As for myself, I am mute in my sardonic amusement.
Doodle, not sure where that came from but anything's possible.
RR17,
That was my poor attempt at a mixture of potty humor, metaphor and irony. In other words, it's probably not the start of a sense of loss for her because she's so full of sh*t that she can't see beyond her own cesspool of desires. Or something like that.
So, going through the morning rituals and in passing, W looks "down". I ask what is wrong, expecting it to be me, and she says that she doesn't have a place here.
Not in a time for me to go run off way, but a whoa is me, way. I replied "Sorry you feel that way." and kept moving.
She continued to mope around until she left for work. This is the first time I have seen W look sad in quite a while. She has been full of confidence and seemingly in charge for several months.
Could this be the start of a sense of Loss?
Well first of all, that was a great response. I'm so glad you didn't make the common mistake of trying to turn it into an R discussion. But next time don't ask what is "wrong" because that often puts a WAS on the defensive, instead say something like "you seem down today, is everything OK?" Try to open a dialog to get her to talk about her feelings.
Hard to tell what it means, she could be starting to have some regrets (it's been long enough for her to start asking herself if she's not perhaps making a mistake). But if that's what is happening she still has a long road to go so just keep doing what you're doing.
doodler, I understood. Could be anything.
Anotherstander, thanks, I'm a little proud of how I handled. Not to mention the fact that I didn't take ownership of her mood. I like your suggestion. I will have to prepare for hearing about the feelings. I'm good at short interactions. I have to armor up for hearing how I am to blame etc.
I do want her to learn and feel safe opening up.
Personally, I am reading about emotionally distancing myself from challenges.
Just a quick update.
All is continuing status quo. W continues to treat me with consideration and respect. No affection or intimacy, but the rest is the makings of a happy M/R.
I continue to not care much. I have other things to focus on. I will say that I find myself daydreaming of what a future without W would look like. I kind of like what I see. I know it is fantasy. Just sharing.
Here is a question. Is it possible that W is trying to see if making the changes that I have expressed were issues in the past? To see where it goes.
At the same time, withholding the parts that she feels will demonstrate that she is happy or satisfied within the R. Make sense?
I know that the above scenario is not a proper recon. I am wondering if in a female type of way W thinks she is somehow working on the R without admitting to working on the R.
Thanks
"Here is a question. Is it possible that W is trying to see if making the changes that I have expressed were issues in the past? To see where it goes.
At the same time, withholding the parts that she feels will demonstrate that she is happy or satisfied within the R. Make sense? "
1st question: Yes it is possible, but I doubt it. Because:
2nd question: More than likely she is trying to nice you and wait you out until " I will say that I find myself daydreaming of what a future without W would look like. I kind of like what I see. I know it is fantasy." becomes what you want and you do the work to D.
WAWs/WWs try to alleviate their own conscience in lots of ways. One way is to have the LBH do the D work. "I was unhappy so he D'd me!"
My advice is to stay the course. Keep GAL, detaching lovingly and 180ing. She is showing signs of softening but you can't trust it yet. Limbo is the gift of time. Use that time to be the spouse only a fool would leave!
1st question: Yes it is possible, but I doubt it. Because:
2nd question: More than likely she is trying to nice you and wait you out until " I will say that I find myself daydreaming of what a future without W would look like. I kind of like what I see. I know it is fantasy." becomes what you want and you do the work to D.
In my experience, they are more likely to Miserable you into doing the D work. So she wants to Nice me into imaging a future without her? Hmm? Get me to move forward by showing me what I have been missing in this relationship?
Am I understanding this correctly?
And I get the conscience part.
1st question: Yes it is possible, but I doubt it. Because:
2nd question: More than likely she is trying to nice you and wait you out until " I will say that I find myself daydreaming of what a future without W would look like. I kind of like what I see. I know it is fantasy." becomes what you want and you do the work to D.
In my experience, they are more likely to Miserable you into doing the D work. So she wants to Nice me into imaging a future without her? Hmm? Get me to move forward by showing me what I have been missing in this relationship?
Am I understanding this correctly?
And I get the conscience part.
Possibly. Not being nice didn't get you to move. So if she is nice, but withholds intimacy and sex, maybe you'll get tired of the new normal and chase your daydream. Then her conscience is alleviated. "He left me!"
Anyway, we are mindreading. Just stay the course. Her being nice is better than her being not nice. It could be the start of her turning back to the MR, it is simply to early to tell.
Anyway, we are mindreading. Just stay the course. Her being nice is better than her being not nice. It could be the start of her turning back to the MR, it is simply to early to tell.
Why can't she sex me into leaving?
Yes, stay the course.
Anyway, we are mindreading. Just stay the course. Her being nice is better than her being not nice. It could be the start of her turning back to the MR, it is simply to early to tell.
Why can't she sex me into leaving?
Yes, stay the course.
LOL
We laugh but WAWs have tried even that.
So another opportunity for interpretation.
We are supposed to listen to what our Ws are really saying, Right?
I'm riding in the car with a friend and my 15D today. (note to self, get better friends)
And said friend after warming up decides he is going to have some fun at my expense. He asks D15 if her father has ever embarrassed her in public.
Now understand that this friend is in his early 60s, never been married, no kids, and in my 25 years of familiarity has never had what I consider a healthy relationship (drinker party girls and maybe some wives), and tends to have a pessimistic sardonic wit. He is funny.
So back to the questioning. D15 recalls an incident where I blew up at a restaurant over some poorly cooked wings. Now granted, this was over 6 years ago and as I remember at the apex of my toxic M. I have since realized that I didn't even realize the place that I had reached. Things reached a toxic atmosphere and I and probably W didn't even realize how bad. Like the frog in the pot of heating water. I caused a bit of a scene. Like most H I realized these transgressions shortly after Discovery in 2013 and with IC and MC addressed what had transpired. No police were called. The restaurant deserved the feedback, but I went too far.
So this friend goes on about how D15 felt, going on and on, and did she ever see herself with anyone that acted that way. Questioning in a leading way that seemed more hurtful than playful. Anyway, at first, I ignored it expecting it to go away. After having enough I handed it back by asking rhetorical questions about how pathetic a person must be to have to destroy another's character just to feel good about one's self. It stopped and we took D15 home. Fun times.
So after work W comes home and out of the norm, is preparing the dinner that she had planned for Sunday and bailed on. I asked if I could tell her something and while preparing the meal I told the story. Since D15 was involved I thought she should know. W is familiar with this friend and would understand the dynamic. And she did.
So the point: I noted that when this whole restaurant incident transpired, I said I was probably a ticking time bomb and hadn't even realized the point that I had reached.
W agreed in a sympathetic kind of way. Not in an "I know that's right, I lived it." kind of way. This show of sympathy is new and unusual.
So if I am to hear what W is really saying, what am I to take from this?
Thanks in advance and God bless.
RR17, forget what she says. The fact that it is the last week of June and she is still in the house says a lot more! I think you are on your way to R, just keep on DBing.
Steve, Thanks. I know I can rely on you.
Some on here can't be challenged, only accepted. You I can rely on.
I know what you are saying and it's not in a simple choice of words, it's much more. It's a change of heart. IMO
For some reason, I feel like there is a missing piece. Am I forgetting something or is it just more of the same? I enjoy my solo bedroom. I appreciate the respect that is now extended.
I know it is the allusion of action. The more you try, the less it works. Indifference is a key part of DB.
OK. Sit by V and let's have a heart to heart.
This convo is highly inappropriate. If it was V I would have closed it down straight away as crossing a boundary. So I would like to start there.
Allowing this convo at all indicates weak boundaries. It's disrespectful to you despite the content. If this is typical for you then I suggest IC and discuss boundary enforcement.
Is lack of respect for you and your boundaries typical?
V
Steve, Thanks. I know I can rely on you.
Some on here can't be challenged, only accepted. You I can rely on.
I know what you are saying and it's not in a simple choice of words, it's much more. It's a change of heart. IMO
For some reason, I feel like there is a missing piece. Am I forgetting something or is it just more of the same? I enjoy my solo bedroom. I appreciate the respect that is now extended.
I know it is the allusion of action. The more you try, the less it works. Indifference is a key part of DB.
Well I think what is missing is that she may still be holding on to her WW daydream and fantasy. I saw that in my sitch, where my W, despite her actions, was still wanting to hold fast to that WW fantasy. In mid Feb, when we were at a marriage retreat (I think she agreed to go in order to be able to say we tried), she rebelled against the MR despite the retreat having an affect on her. It was Christian-based, and prior to her waywardness she had been a devout Christian.
It was there that I really felt her heart starting to change. The Lord works in very mysterious ways and we even had some adversity happen while we were there that helped bring us closer together. But at lunch, on the Saturday of the retreat, she rebelled verbally against the MR one last time. This is documented in my threads.
This is why I always say believe NOTHING they say, whether it be positive OR negative. I see so many here say "Oh, my marriage is over because she said blah blah blah." or "My marriage is saved because she said blah blah blah!" The truth is that sitches do not turn around because of words, they turn around due to action.
I chose my words carefully, that "I think you are on your way to R". Not because of anything you've posted that she has said, it is due to her actions. With words she insisted she was moving out 5/18. In actions it is nearly 7/18 and she is still there, with no apparent activity towards changing that!
In March, when I looked back and realized my W had made no effort to move forward with getting a job and moving out since the middle of Januray, that is when I started thinking that there was a possibility that the retreat, the MC, and my GAL, 180ing and detaching was having an affect. Read my threads and you will see I struggled MIGHTILY. I initiated R talks. I snooped. I was terrible at DBing until late Feb/early March. But once I started detaching and differentiating well, the effect happen fairly quickly.
So yes keep up the GAL, 180s, and detachment. Through that be that spouse only an absolute fool would leave.
There will be things missing for quite a while. My W still isn't as affectionate as she was a year ago, but she is moving in that direction.
V, no lack of respect and my boundaries is not typical. One of my challenges with this or any type of forum is that it is very difficult to convey tone or context.
If you knew me, you would be surprised that I let it go on at all.
Shutting it down, or attempting to, was exactly what he wanted. To get a rise out of me. Make me defensive. It was done in sardonic humor but it crossed the line. At that point, I did shut it down.
This friend, let's call him John. Because that is his name. John is immature and very insecure. When I got married he was jealous and most anything people accomplish gets belittled because of this insecurity. John, I believe saw an opportunity to punch holes in what he sees as my better life. No doubt it was inappropriate. I didn't think he would do this. Now I know.
Thanks, Steve, and Vanilla thank you too.
Steve, I have followed your thread and am happy for your progress. I am also trepidatious that neither W has shown remorse or a loss. Is that correct?
Sandi has empathized the importance of this loss and I believe it. I believe it because although you sometimes tell me it is too soon. Hell, I've been playing this or some version of this game for 5 years now. Since Discovery Aug. 2013. My latest BD was just about a year ago this week. But that is only the latest.
Why, did I return? I believe it is because W didn't experience this loss. We didn't have a proper recon. Both had more lessons to learn. I didn't discover DB until this go round. I hadn't detached.
My living hell has been trying to proceed while living with a person that I often don't trust. That until BD I trusted more than anyone on the planet. If there is any boundary that I am allowing to be breached on a regular basis it is this one. Yes, I have expressed this to W. Once while emotional she even said she was sorry for not doing the things to restore this trust. She also never made an outward attempt to restore it. I think she is afraid to find out what that might look like. Another hold back.
It has also forced me to release control. I get that. Faith baby.
I know what I need to do. I might need reminding from time to time. The more I detach, differentiate and un-enmesh, the more I think about moving on.
We, all of us, are expected to operate unlike humans in this process. Deny our own hurts and what is normally healthy responses to traumatic events for the betterment of a family and or M/R. And at what expense?
Thanks again.
RR17, I would never question sandi. She is right that in the vast majority of the cases a WW needs to have a feeling of loss to snap her out of it, and eventually remorse. However, every sitch is different.
While in my sitch I still attribute the turnaround mostly to my differentiation, I did some non-DB things too. The touch charges and talk charges I talk about, as well as the weekly lunch date, most here would classify as pursuit. And it may have been, but it worked in my sitch. It might not work in everyone's sitch.
I like what you said about operating unlike humans. That really is what DBing is. As humans we have emotions, and trying to control those emotions is difficult. I've read a lot of sitches here and other places, and it is amazing that those that can behave the most robotic through their sitches are the ones that are most successful at R. For most of the first 2 months of my sitch I failed at that.
RR17 I hear you about the previous sitch. My W had her first EA in 2005. And much like your sitch from 5 years ago we didn't deal with it properly. We aren't making that mistake this time and likely if you do R you won't either. But I do feel, and this is just me, that those old sitches are just that, old sitches. And these new sitches are new sitches. While the new sitches may have come about due to the old sitches, we have to realize that we can't claim that time that passed between the sitches. When I talk about a relatively short period I was more talking about the fact that 5/18 move out is only a month past at this point.
Every sitch is different (as I stated) and in your sitch maybe a year is still a short time. Maybe it is a longtime. You would totally know more than I would! But regardless if it is 1 day, 1 month, 1 year, 10 years, the point still stands that DBing and R are not on our timetable. It will happen as it naturally happens.
I still think it is hugely significant that 5/18 came an went without your W moving out. But as always in these things, time will tell!
Every sitch is different and they all sound so familiar. IMO, that is why these practices even work.
In my sitch, I don't consider it a different sitch. I think it is a continuation due to inadequate closure. Like beating cancer into remission but not killing it all the way. The latest is merely an inevitable flare-up.
I don't wish it on anyone.
I now believe that the reason we all screw up at first is due to our transformation when we become enmeshed in our Rs as well as Hollywood. It is called NGS here, but I think it is an embracement of our feminine energies.
Instead of acting like centered masculines we chase and beg and cry.
No, I'm not saying that men should deny their emotional responses, but it ain't going to bring her back. A lot of it will most surely drive her away.
I still think it is hugely significant that 5/18 came an went without your W moving out. But as always in these things, time will tell!
I do too, but hearing it from you helps. I could easily attribute it to external forces. But hearing it from someone else that has followed my story give perspective. Add the respect and consideration and the picture becomes clearer even yet.
It often falls on deaf ears but I urge the other guys to act as if they don't give a crap and they are moving on. Both for themselves and the Rs. We are scared of letting go and losing control. I see it in myself. I read about it here.
It often falls on deaf ears but I urge the other guys to act as if they don't give a crap and they are moving on. Both for themselves and the Rs. We are scared of letting go and losing control. I see it in myself. I read about it here.
Solid. I know I've recently posted in a couple of poster's threads about this very thing. The thing is letting go is about regaining control, not losing it. Regaining control over ourselves and our emotions. The illusion of losing control over our WAS is just that, an illusion. Because we never had that control to begin with.