Not an encouraging way to start here with a disappearing post
. I cant retype it all so I will try a shorter version.
My wife has been unhappy and wanting a divorce for at least a couple years now. Besides just unhappy with marriage she has been depressed, especially after the birth of our son. I responded badly to her depression, wishing she would just not be depressed. I did not understand what she was going through, and I was not a safe person for her to share herself with. When she did try to share, I reacted with anger and defensiveness instead of compassion and understanding. I did not validate her feelings, and did not even know what that meant until I was shown by example from our marriage counselor we saw for a couple months at the end of 2017. We went on a Retrouvaille retreat in March of 2017, and that almost saved our marriage but my wife had wounds that were too deep and I did not yet understand the depths of those wounds or what the real problems in our marriage were.
So now she has found someone else I think she feels safe with, and I am in a very dark place thinking I have done irreparable harm to my wife and our marriage. I have not confronted her about the affair, and do not think I can because she will only see my snooping as another reason not to trust me. I read a message on her phone two weeks ago that flared up my anxiety about the possibility of her having an affair. I never even thought an affair could be a possibility before reading that message though, even as broken as our marriage was. And now I am having a difficult time stopping myself from snooping more. The pain I am experiencing now I realize is what my wife felt when she was in depression. I did not understand her feelings then, and now that I am feeling the same inability to sleep, eat, or function at all in daily life, I do not know how I ever could have understood how bad this feels without feeling it myself.
Have you read the disappearing posts thread?
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2785770#Post2785770How are you typing your words into the reply box?
What kind of device are you using?
I suggest trying to use a laptop or desktop computer and typing the words into the reply box
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Not an encouraging way to start here with a disappearing post
. I cant retype it all so I will try a shorter version.
My wife has been unhappy and wanting a divorce for at least a couple years now. Besides just unhappy with marriage she has been depressed, especially after the birth of our son. I responded badly to her depression, wishing she would just not be depressed. I did not understand what she was going through, and I was not a safe person for her to share herself with. When she did try to share, I reacted with anger and defensiveness instead of compassion and understanding. I did not validate her feelings, and did not even know what that meant until I was shown by example from our marriage counselor we saw for a couple months at the end of 2017. We went on a Retrouvaille retreat in March of 2017, and that almost saved our marriage but my wife had wounds that were too deep and I did not yet understand the depths of those wounds or what the real problems in our marriage were.
So now she has found someone else I think she feels safe with, and I am in a very dark place thinking I have done irreparable harm to my wife and our marriage. I have not confronted her about the affair, and do not think I can because she will only see my snooping as another reason not to trust me. I read a message on her phone two weeks ago that flared up my anxiety about the possibility of her having an affair. I never even thought an affair could be a possibility before reading that message though, even as broken as our marriage was. And now I am having a difficult time stopping myself from snooping more. The pain I am experiencing now I realize is what my wife felt when she was in depression. I did not understand her feelings then, and now that I am feeling the same inability to sleep, eat, or function at all in daily life, I do not know how I ever could have understood how bad this feels without feeling it myself.
Put in first post that disappeared
Keep Posting - Cadet
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Sorry man. I know it is tough. You've already been through a lot with your MR, so you need to pull up your pants and get to work. Assuming you still want to save it. Read all of cadet's links and then start listening to the fine folks here that can help you.
I picked up the DR book on Monday but haven't read much yet. Having just discovered the affair has put me in survival mode. I've been browsing the forums here for two or three months, and had even been trying to reduce my time doing that because I thought it was distracting me from taking the actions I needed to be taking. Actually having joined could be good for me though I think. This week I'm trying to take care of myself. I am noticing myself being triggered throughout the day about my wife's affair, and I want to not think about it so much but it is consuming me. I felt better yesterday while writing the post that disappeared, but it took a couple hours out of my morning when I should have been working at my job. I work TWTH mornings at a job I've been at for 7 years, and the rest of the week's work hours I am supposed to be working on my master's thesis project. Making progress on that project has been difficult since my life has been in upheaval throughout grad school and now is crumbling even faster.
I read the first chapter of DB online but don't need to be told any more reasons to try to save my marriage, which is what that chapter seems to be mostly about. I know my marriage has had problems from the start, and it's taken me a year just to start believing that just because there were always problems doesn't mean our marriage can't be better. My wife has been hurting for a long time in our relationship and doesn't see that possibility, probably just thinks I am hanging on and not letting her go. I am hanging on for dear life, but I know I cannot stop her from leaving. I often wonder why she hasn't just done it already, but with the affair I see she pretty much has. And now I'm thinking about the A again, which I'd rather not. I'm going to log off and get back to my job.
Just discovered my wife removed our relationship status from Facebook. I'm still "married" on it but it doesn't say to her. And hers says no relationship status to display. It hurts as much as her taking her wedding rings off (which was over a year ago). Why is it such a shock to me? It hurts so much.. I have been calling my therapist all week and she keeps advising me to not snoop or look for evidence of the affair. I just keep walking myself into being triggered like this though. I was looking at her profile because I was going to try to investigate who her AP could be by cross referencing her friends and followers with people interested the same events as her. She is going to a fashion show tomorrow which she said she was going to go to by herself, but I am convinced she is going with AP. She spent $150 on new shoes this week, saying she was getting shoes to wear to the show. She bought three pairs. I feel like she is bleeding me dry in any way possible. I used to think her spending was just because of her depression and anger at me and the way I used to question the necessity of almost all her purchases. She has spent over $2000 a month on herself the past three months, and I have kept my mouth shut about it to keep the peace and not push her away with another discussion about money that I didn't expect her to be able to have without being triggered herself. All that money she spent on herself came from student loans. My income only covers basic necessities right now. I've been wanting to have a conversation about fair use of our finances for a while now, but with the A discovery what good would that do?
Tonight I am planning on going rock climbing, something I started in Feb. as a way to get exercise, socialize (which I've never done before), give my wife space, and distract myself from my marriage problems for a couple hours by being around people who don't think I have or am trying to ruin their lives. I am afraid that leaving her alone at the house with our son, she will spend more time either talking/sexting (I have no proof of sexting, but I'm not that naive) or invite him over (for sex) while I'm gone. I'm obsessing about the sex part of the A. I'm obsessing about the A. That's what my therapist keeps trying to tell me not to do. Specifically not to snoop or investigate, because it is making it worse for myself. Whenever I start feeling better though is when I think I can handle a little investigation, then I regret it! I know I can't control my wife but this is all $hit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So I know I shouldn't try to come home early from climbing or anything.
As so many have wondered: WHAT DO I DO!?
I don't know how I can do any of the work to save my marriage when I can't get this affair out of my head and can't stop reacting emotionally (maybe not in front of my wife, but still devastating every other part of my life and health) with every new sign of infidelity and rejection I encounter. I am so close to quitting and filing divorce myself. I know I need to stop investigating. Which means I need to just let her have her affair, let her screw whoever she wants for as long as she wants. How can I possibly work on building connection with her at the same time? She has told me repeatedly that she has only not left yet because she has a teaching job that doesn't end til the end of the month, and our son is also in preschool until the end of the month. We have no plans for school for him next year because we don't know where we will be living. I only have until July to finish my thesis, which I haven't started writing because I've been busy tending to my broken marriage. AAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!! :(:(:(
You're right, your first goal so be to stop reacting emotionally. It is very difficult. One thing I have seen a lot of marriage saving experts suggest is to suspend your facebook and other social media accounts. No good for much except following your W's every move on social media can come from them.
Anyway, some things to think about. As far as getting the affair out of your mind, it is tough. The best thing to do is to fill your time with as much brain engaging activities as possible. Brainless activities like driving, watching TV, etc will drive you nuts. If you can work a lot of hours, do it. I found that while I was engaged at work I could get it off of my mind.
The first thing I would do if I were you would be telling W to stop with the frivolous spending. Don't worry about hurting her feelings. She's cheating on you. Do you think she took your feelings into consideration when she started the A?...
Then pay no attention to her. Don't ask her questions about what she's doing. Don't follow her around the house. Take your son out to do things without her (go to the park, movies, zoo)...
And continue to GAL. It will help keep this all off your mind. Sounds like you got a good start with the rock climbing. Keep it up. Don't worry what she thinks about it. It's only for you...
I'm no expert, but these are a few things to start with.
I'm sorry you are here, but you will be getting a lot of good advice from some great people, so listen and apply.
I know what you are talking about when you say how bad your W's actions are hurting you. When my W started her A she started spending money on new clothes to impress the OM. Knife to the heart. She removed her wedding rings. Another knife to the heart. She took down everything in the house that reminded her she was M to me, right down to the crystal clocks we received as a wedding gift. A third knife to the heart.
Everything she does regarding the A will hurt. The only way I have found to deal with it is to not think about it as much as possible.
When I discovered my W's A on Christmas Day last year, I started doing much of what you are right now and it didn't make me feel any better. I snooped. A lot. I looked at her planner, email, call logs, text logs. Anything I could to keep track of her contact with the OM. It only made me feel worse. I didn't start to really deal with the issues until I STOPPED snooping.
Believe me, I know it is difficult not snoop, but it is for your own good. Tracking her will only keep the sitch in the front of your mind and not allow you to focus on the rest of your life. Your Master's Thesis will be tough enough. Obsessing about your W will make it nearly impossible. I don't know if I could have done mine while thinking about my W's A.
Do yourself a favor and listen to your therapist. Only then will you be able to step back, get a clear picture of your sitch and figure out what your next move should be.
Thanks rminer, your advice sounds difficult to follow, but I am willing to do it. I've had all those knives in my heart too. That's a real literal pain in the heart too. Feeling it right now. I will go rock climbing tonight, and not go home early. I am meeting my therapist tomorrow morning. I'm always frustrated that those sessions are only one hour long. I've got issues for days! I do think they help though.
mtb1981, I am going to hold off on your advice. The spending is an extremely sensitive issue which I feel foolish waiting until now to talk about it, but still don't feel confident enough to have that conversation with her now. I can't control her spending any more than I can control her having an affair, right? Finances have seemed to be a conflict too large to talk about without risking instant meltdown. She still believes I have hurt her and it would show her "I haven't changed" if I ask her to spend less. I have three months of spending history as proof that what she is doing is unfair though. Even if I was making the income I'd have if I was graduated and working full-time, if she continued her same spending there would only be a tenth that amount left for me to spend. And that's not even allowing me to save for things that are important to me, like retirement and my son's education. So yeah I know the spending is a problem and needs to stop somehow, but I don't see an immediate solution to that which I can implement without regret. I might also mention however that she has had her own private checking account she opened a year ago for herself and apparently is only saving that money for her escape. Which I don't understand, because she could have left any time already with the amount of money she spent on clothes and cosmetics and hobbies.
There's more to this spending story but I need to go home now and watch my son while my wife goes to her workout class. I'm suspicious of that class too. I haven't told her I want to go rock climbing tonight yet. I will tell her when I get home. I don't want to make it easy for her to plan ahead for my absence. Is that manipulative on my part? Or not letting go enough?
I might also mention however that she has had her own private checking account she opened a year ago for herself and apparently is only saving that money for her escape. Which I don't understand, because she could have left any time already with the amount of money she spent on clothes and cosmetics and hobbies.
You need to remember that she has the security of your M and the excitement of the A. Right now she has the best of both worlds. She might be saving to leave, but something is still keeping her around.
When you have a chance, read
ALL of sandi2's threads on the WW's mindset. Everything she explains in those threads is virtually identical to what my W was doing and the way she was acting. sandi2 was a WW, so she gives some great insight.
Is that manipulative on my part? Or not letting go enough?
I wouldn't say it is necessarily manipulative, but it does show you are obsessing a bit. You will not be able to stop her from meeting up with the OM. Just know that. If she wants to, she will find a way. Do not try to control her actions. If you do, she will rebel even more. Just learn to let go and detach as best you can. I've been trying to detach since Jan, and I haven't gotten there yet. It's hard and takes time. Once you begin the process, it all becomes easier.
Detaching doesn't mean you stop loving her, it just means you emotionally remove yourself from what she is doing and let her make her own mistakes.
You will hear a lot of advice that is counterintuitive here and you will have a hard time grasping it as most of us have. It seems crazy, but it works.
When you have questions, ask. There are no stupid questions here. Before you make a major move, seek advice. There are many experts here that will help. Most of all, do not take offense to what people say to you. 2x4s are common around here and we all need them, so when someone says something that stings a bit, stop and think about it. They are only being blunt to help.
Whatever you want to do, man. It's your choice. You're right about not being able to stop her seeing OM and having A, but from what I understood is that money was from your student loan, not her shoe loan. That is something you should have a say in. Just don't let yourself be a doormat. Like rminer said, read Sandi's threads on WW. They need tough love and you need her to respect you if you want to save your M. Spending thousands of dollars of your student loans to buy shoes and new clothes to look good for OM is far from respecting you. You need to read Sandi's thread ASAP. Good luck, brother...
Last night when she came home from her workout and before I went rock climbing, she said she wanted to buy a car. She said she saw one down the street that she wanted. I thought that meant a used car in a driveway, but then she said it was $8000, and she had enough for the 10% down payment but not the monthly payments since she didn't have a job. And there was another one she liked but this one had less miles on it. I asked her what the monthly payment would be and she said she thought $150-$200 a month. She has complained about wanting a new car before, but now it sounds like she is making more plans for herself, and not even asking what I think about buying a car. What I think is yes, we could use a new car, but we need to budget for it. And she has not wanted to look at a budget with me since separating in January. A friend advised me that if she is indicating that she is planning on making large financial decisions without me, I should do something to protect my own interests. I don't yet know how to do that without my actions being perceived by her as as controlling and abusive. I haven't contacted a divorce attorney yet, but now seems to be the right time for that. I think I will make that phone call after posting this. I don't want a divorce, but I know I can't stop one if she wants it so I'd better get ready, right?
When we were in marriage counseling last December, our therapist revealed to both of us that my behavior towards my wife amounted to emotional abuse. That pretty much broke my wife, and my immediate reaction was to want to help her heal and never hurt her in that way again. The core issue then seemed to be that she felt she had lost her identity in our relationship because of my frugality, which made her feel like money was more important to me than her, and I made her feel bad about spending money on herself, just because I wouldn't have spent it that way. I recognized my attitudes about money were hurtful to her. understood those feelings finally as a result of a men's retreat I went on last November where I did the most powerful emotional work of my life up to that point.
Other things she has wounds about and I want to apologize for are our sexual relationship. Being raised Catholic I ended up thinking the only non-sinful way to have sex was PIV, and I didn't believe my wife when she told me that wasn't enough for her. Therefore she was often left unsatisfied, and was hurt by apparent unwillingness to give her what she needed. I've done a lot of work on my own to change my beliefs about sex and have become much more liberal in that regard. I have not communicated that to my wife though, since I didn't want to just sound like I was saying "see how much I've changed!?" And the only physical contact we've had in the last six months is maybe a dozen group hugs with our son, two or three instances of hand-holding, and one hug with each other when I was feeling really lonely and touch-deprived. My desire for physical contact grew stronger the more comfortable she started to become around me, which led me to ask for a hug that time. I don't think she was comfortable with it though.
Anyway, I thought I was respecting the distance she wanted between us, and was trying to do everything I could to work on myself and the marriage by trying to have positive interactions,
turn towards her bids for attention, be vulnerable myself to rebuild trust, manage my emotions so I wouldn't say things out of anger I would regret, talking about conflicts when I recognized them instead of avoiding them (which is why I approached her about the message I read which worried me about an affair), and asking her if something was wrong if I saw her in distress rather than avoiding her unpleasant feelings. That all seemed to be helping her feel safer around me and more connected, though I could see there was a long way to go still. That all changed when I asked about the message I read though, and now I think she views all those acts of kindness and positive changes in myself as manipulative behavior. I had been taking on a lot more of the housework too, but feel I can't keep that up anymore which frustrates me to have that also be seen as an inconsistency or something I didn't really change. It's not that I don't want to continue contributing with the housework, I just don't think I can continue it any longer at the same pace without any effort from her. Sigh, I know that I could still exhaust myself by doing all the housework, but I also know acts of service is not one of her LL.
I think this post is getting too long, but I've got a lot more to get out and I worry about not having enough time. The fashion show is tonight, and my wife is going to a baby shower tomorrow two hours away in our hometown. I want to ask her to take our son with her, so I can have more time to work through things on my own this weekend, and write an apology letter. (I won't tell her why, just tell her I need a day or two to myself, which is what she told me last week when she met with AP)
Met my therapist today and my homework is to say this to my wife: "I am sorry that I hurt you. I was emotionally abusive towards you. How do you want to move forward? I don't want a divorce, but if you want it you will have to start it because I emotionally can't."
Doesn't sound like something people her would recommend I say, but I see now that nothing can improve MR while W believes I am her abuser, and that will not change without me acknowledging it to her and apologizing. I want to write a complete apology letter this weekend. I was going to last weekend but A discovery got in the way.
Very insightful post. I am sure at a minimum your wife felt you were controlling. I was the same way as you when it came to spending money. On my BD, she spent several minutes telling me how she wanted more leeway related to buying things for the house, and for charity (our church holds charity drives and I've discouraged her in the past from going "overboard"). Whenever she'd leave to go shopping I'd say "be sense-able!". Like your W I think she felt I cared more about money than her.
The weird thing (maybe God's intervention?) is that our financial situation got a lot better in the months after BD. And because of her grievances in that regard I did a 180 and loosened up about money. This had a big effect on her. She knew that would be one of the most difficult changes I could make so as she tested it over time my consistency in not behaving the way I had previously really started to make her believe the changes I was instituting.
She likely is testing you. Are your changes real? If I say I want to spend this money will he react the way he always has? If you are interested in saving things I would encourage you to back off and let her make this decision on the car. I don't know your financial situation, but if it is at all possible, then I would encourage you to just let her do it. Don't even give your blessing, just tell her it is up to her and you will support the decision either way.
And then see if there is someway you can sacrifice to help if it makes things difficult. One of the things I did was switched to bringing my lunch instead of going out every day. I was spending $10-15/day (4 days a week since I work from home one day a week). That is $200-300/month right there!
Controlling and emotional abuse is one of the worst things that we can do as spouses (behind only physical abuse). If you were that way then the biggest change you can make is to stop it, and if you need help stopping that then get it.
STH, I am just writing a quick post to you to tell you that if MLC were 24 hours, you would be in the first millisecond of that 24 hours. You are at the big bang but you want to already be walking around on planet earth. I read that when I started and I didn't believe anyone. Then I thought it would be 2 years. I'm in year five and I just got rebombed. I'm not saying that will happen to you; I'm just saying, take a deep breath and stop trying to fix this. You can't fix it yet. It's true what everyone says -- you have to pull away completely and work on yourself and let her go. I came to Christ through my stand for my marriage. It's long, it's slow, but it's also beautiful. God will give you graces beyond imagining during this journey through the fire. If you are a Catholic, don't apologize, use it! Faith may be the best way for you to stand and it will certainly be the best way for you to forgive her daily for all the stuff she is doing and will do. Read Hosea, talk to a priest who believes in the sanctity of marriage. The more you commit yourself to the stand, the more you will be able to do it. Your obsession over the A is totally normal, but it's not true. It may be true that horrible things are happening, but it's not true that it's the end of your marriage -- greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world! Get ready for your spiritual battle, you can do this! Check out Rejoice Ministries, it will help you a lot if you want to lean on your faith. The movie "Fireproof" also was pivotal for me, and I did the Love Dare many times over, but your W may not respond to it at all for a long while.
You can't fix this yet. You have to take a deep breath and step back. You can do it, you can do it, God will help you, I promise!
P.S. And I also forgot to say that if your wife is entering MLC, you have to be really careful or she will spend everything you have. Money was always a huge issue for us too, my H was always a bit crazy with it, and in deep debt when we met, but my H has spent well over 30K on extras and tuition during his MLC not to mention left me with all our debts and continues to demand money from me since I "refuse" to sell the house (he wants to live on his half). You can show respect and love to her without letting her buy a car you can't afford! That is not a good test of your love or marriage or a good way to buy her or you back, it is a an MLC-style test. I would try something more proactive -- e.g., tell her that you will always take care of her because she is your wife but out of respect for your marriage and to make sure your son is taken care of, you will always put the family's needs first. You could tell her that you want her to feel the control of her choices that she craves, so she can make her own account and you will put X amount into it per week from your earnings, and out of that can come all her spending for her car, groceries, etc. Then if she wants to blow money on a car you can't afford, it will be a consequence she faces on her own. My H demanded his own account in the beginning and I was crushed. But in the end, it enabled me to start separating finances enough that his crazy MLC excesses (hair transplant, for example) damaged deeply but so far didn't destroy our family.
MLC is probably all rolled into this too. My wife and I haven't talked about that together, but at the beginning of our separation she was very crushed by her realization that she had "lost her identity" because of our relationship. We never had a constructive conversation about that. I've been practicing not getting defensive when she says stuff like that, but the result ends up being I don't say much of anything at all, which leaves her feeling like I don't care or don't understand her.
Last night was the fashion show. I tried to be asleep before she came home so I wouldn't be thinking about when she might come home. I woke up when she did come home, but pretended to be asleep. I thought that was the right thing to do to try to "detach" and not open up a can of worms by asking "how was the show?" and somehow be seen as prying, but it felt dishonest to pretend not to be awake. I think if I can successfully stop looking for evidence of an affair, I am afraid that will end up just widening the disconnection between my wife and I.
I did ask her about the show this morning, and I enjoyed the conversation for the most part although it was difficult to maintain eye contact as I was worried about sounding too inquisitive. I asked if she had some pictures of the outfits I could see, which she did share with me. I didn't ask if she saw anyone she knew, but she told me that she only saw one person she knew. Overall, nothing really suspicious about our conversation, and I was trying to act AS IF I had nothing to be suspicious about. The more I can do that, and the less snooping I do, the less suspicious I may become. I can see myself in the future even starting to believe that I was just really anxious and making up an affair story in my head because I was so afraid of that happening. Like now I am starting to think of other possible explanations for the evidence I found, but I worry I am just fooling myself. I think the bottom line is, I don't want to feel the pain of her having an affair, and I also don't want to mistakenly assume she is having an affair and have that affect how I think of her and behave towards her. That is why I asked her about the first message I read. I haven't thought about that message for a while, but as I do now it reminds me of how all the pieces of the story I constructed fit together and seem to not allow any other conclusion than an affair.
I'm trying to stay off Facebook, which one thing that is helping me.
There are three reasons I asked my wife to take our son with her today:
1. So I could work on writing an apology letter to her
2. So I could have some time to GAL and do something for myself
3. As some insurance against her meeting up with AP. I recognize this is a similar behavior to what I did a few days ago by not telling her I was going rock climbing until the last minute.
I think my wife may be just as suspicious of my request to have the weekend to myself as I was of her request to have a day to herself. But I think as long as I have nothing to hide, I don't really have to worry about her suspicions. Ugh, now I'm just thinking of all the evidence I have seen of her affair though, and I want to STOP DOING THAT! I'm going to fold some laundry and listen to loud music now. I like loud music, and I never get to enjoy that when my wife and/or son are home. So time for some me time! Crank it!
Then I think I'll go rock climbing again. And maybe have a meal in the city. I think I will also renew my membership at the rock climbing gym, which just expired. I think I'll go for the three-month membership, even though W and I had decided to move out of state by mid-June. That was assuming I could find a job there by then. I'm debating backing out of that agreement though and staying put now. I think that might force my wife's hand on starting divorce proceedings though. I don't want to do that, but I don't want to make a move out of state for her if she is just going to leave me anyway. The trouble there is that if the move really is the best thing for her, I don't want to get in the way of that either. I am fearful of an ugly custody battle arising from that too. I think there are some haaard conversations that will be forced very soon, and I worry I won't be ready for them. I'll probably keep posting here about it and hopefully have some insights as I do. Writing my thoughts helps.
By the way I did schedule a consultation with a family law office just to try to be ready for what I think is imminent. I don't want to tell my wife I have done that, because I don't want divorce proceedings to start. I am doubting the wisdom of completing the homework my therapist gave me as well. Like, I know I can't stop my wife from starting the divorce, but do I really want to be giving her any ideas or telling her to just go do it if she wants to? :P
aahhh NOW it's loud music time!
!
On #1, you are not going to give it to you are you?
Dude you have to slow the fuch down.
First your W is way to young for MLC.
Second what are you writing an apology letter for? Please tell me you do not plan to give it to her.
Lastly, make sure you see a lawyer, your W can not take your child to another state.
Your W is more then likely having an affair but it doesnt change anything. This will take many months or years to sort out.
Try to take a deep breath slow down and start doing your home work. The worst thing you can do is come unglued.
A year after Retrouvaille, unsuccessful marriage counseling, 3 months of me out of the house and 3 months in-house separation, and I still need to slow down? My wife said she didn't want to be married to me over two years ago already.
Is giving an apology letter not part of DB at all, or is timing just important? Another friend I've been talking to has been recommending Lee Baucom's Save the Marriage system, which seems to have a few large differences with DB. An apology letter is an essential part of, as is building connection and consistency. I've also been learning and implementing a lot of good skills from the Gottman website about turning towards emotional bids, repair attempts, rituals. I read something about letter writing today in the DR book, too, but I'm still working through that book. I don't want to continue researching and researching while my marriage just slips away because I'm not taking any action. An apology letter is something I haven't done yet, and I think it is something that is missing.
The biggest things I feel the time pressure from is my wife's current job ending at the end of the month, my thesis being due mid-july, and no concrete job, housing, or divorce plans in place for myself or my wife.
I guess knowing it will take months or years to sort out is good to keep in mind, but I would hate for my decision to not move be the thing that makes my wife finally file for divorce. I keep wondering why she hasn't already.
I think I'll post again tonight about why I think I need to write an apology, hopefully that helps me with writing the actual apology. Right now I'm going out to GAL!
I write about this all the time it is called the illusion of action. You feel you have do something to stop the D when in reality it is the exact opposite.
You need to take the focus off your W and solely place it on you and your son. You need to get to a place where you you have a great life for your son and you and if she wants to join you great, if she does not that is ok too.
A person who loves and values themselves is not going to tolerate a spouse having an A and telling them for two years they do not want to be married to them.
Something to think about.
Writing apology letters. Building connection. Those things are great when you realize you need to be a better husband and your wife is still invested in the MR. Once she says she wants out, those things come across as desperate and pathetic.
Lots of marriage saving advice out there is for fixing your MR when you both still want it fixed. You have to be careful with those tactics for a WAS. MWD advocate DBing because those tactics work when your spouse has already checked out of the MR.
I would not write a letter. If you do I would not give it to her. Detachment, differentiation, 180ing, GAL and being the best you that you can be.
Pursuing, pressuring, trying to control doesn't work. And writing apology letters is pursuit and pressure and could een be controlling if you do it trying to get a particular reaction.
So I didn't write the apology letter. Not that I decided not to, but more because I am anxious about writing it and I typically don't follow through and complete tasks I am anxious about doing.
I did get a nice blank card and wrote her a note of appreciation for mother's day though. I left it on her pillow, but I don't think she even opened it last night.
This morning I was shaving and she stopped at the bathroom doorway to ask me if I had RSVP'd for one of my cousin's weddings coming up. My aunt just messaged my wife asking about it. I think she asked if I was going to go by myself, which probably was a question of if I was going to take our son with, but I asked if she wanted to go (duh, of course not). She said it would be weird for her to do things with my family when she wanted to separate. Then she asked when we could talk more about that, saying there were forms and schedules we had to work out. This was the first time she had brought up divorce in a calm way and not after a heated emotional conversation. So I calmly said we could talk about it this weekend. I have a consultation with a family law office this Thursday, but my wife doesn't know that.
Then we were both in the kitchen, she making her coffee and I my breakfast. She was making some trivial conversational statements: "My dad has a pour-over coffee maker that makes better coffee than my french press" Me: "uh-huh"
Her at the sink: "We've got ants again, think I can wash him down the drain?" Me: ...
Her: "Are you icing me out?"
Me, after thinking what to say: "I'm just trying to protect myself." Her: "By icing me out?"
I am really trying to stay calm here and not blow up on her about her trying to make light conversation after just making plans to work out a divorce with each other. I don't remember what else was said by each of us exactly, but she was upset as usual that I wasn't saying anything to her when I felt I couldn't talk to her. Usually my thoughts are racing with things I know I shouldn't say out loud or I think I can't say, and there's no room in my mind in the midst of that to stop and just say "I can't talk about this right now", or "I need some time to think, I can't talk to you right now or answer any of your questions."
She said all she's ever wanted was for me to tell her when I am upset. Well yeah I'm upset now because she wants a divorce and she's acting like it's no big deal! How am I supposed to tell her that? Like she's blaming me right now for not putting her or our relationship first. Really? Right NOW you're upset for me not putting YOU first!? WTF!? And that's why I'm silent, because it's taking all my concentration to stop myself from exploding on her with that. And I'm thinking she ought to be appreciating my restraint.
She also said "I don't think you understand what is happening here," which I think she meant about the reality of her wanting a divorce and there being nothing I can do to stop it or change her mind. I think then is when I told her "I need you to end this conversation right now" because apparently she hadn't understood that herself. She sighed, annoyed, the way I used to when she used to ask me the same thing and she was emotionally flooded during an argument/discussion/conversation/whatever. I wanted to tell her I understand a lot more than she thinks I do, and she's the one who doesn't understand how wrong of a "solution" divorce is to our problems right now. And that I understand she's had(having?) an affair and that she doesn't understand how much of a betrayal that is. So yeah, I think I get to be silent right now and she can be the one to "deal with it".
Now that I'm a bit more cooled off and have written this down, I wonder if I should go talk to her about what happened. I still don't want to tell her what I was really thinking. And actually I'm not sure if I am all that cooled off. Writing down my angry thoughts has made me a bit more angry at the moment.
I want nothing more than to talk to my wife about my feelings, but all my feelings lately are anger and sadness and fear about her giving up on our marriage and having an affair. And she says things like all she's ever wanted was for me to talk to her about my feelings more. I don't think I can do that with her if she is constantly reminding me she wants a divorce. Feels like a trap, like she's asking me to share my feelings and then she's still going to use that to tell me it's too late or not good enough.
The last thing you need to do right now is talk to your W about your feelings. She doesn't care about your feelings right now. She might want to convince you that she does, but she doesn't. You really need to read Sandi's rules and other threads. They will help you more than you know right now...
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2777879#Post2777879
Do as mtb says. And concentrate on the detachment and validation threads. You were very passive-aggressive in your interactions with her in the kitchen. That is not loving detachment. Nor validation.
Should have:
"My dad has a pour-over coffee maker that makes better coffee than my french press" Me: "Oh yeah, I've heard are really good especially if you grind your own beans."
Her at the sink: "We've got ants again, think I can wash him down the drain?" Me: "Yes, torch that little sucker with hot water and wash him away!"
She also said "I don't think you understand what is happening here," which I think she meant about the reality of her wanting a divorce and there being nothing I can do to stop it or change her mind. I think then is when
I told her "I completely understand. You want a divorce. There is nothing I can do to prevent you from doing that if it is what you want. It takes two to make a marriage but only one to make a divorce. So while I disagree with the decision, I have to let you go."
Those would have been a lot more productive. Detachment is not being mean, or silent, or "icing out". Read the link. And then study the validation link.
Otherwise, you might as well just go file for D yourself.
I write about this all the time it is called the illusion of action. You feel you have do something to stop the D when in reality it is the exact opposite.
You need to take the focus off your W and solely place it on you and your son. You need to get to a place where you you have a great life for your son and you and if she wants to join you great, if she does not that is ok too.
A person who loves and values themselves is not going to tolerate a spouse having an A and telling them for two years they do not want to be married to them.
Something to think about.
ABSOLUTELY NAILED IT!!!!! WHne I did this it canged the entire dynamic of the situation.
I want nothing more than to talk to my wife about my feelings, but all my feelings lately are anger and sadness and fear about her giving up on our marriage and having an affair.
DO NOT DO THAT OR YOU WILL REGRET IT BIG TIME.
Right now you cant make your sitch better but you can make it worse.
Time and Distance along with strong actions is the only thing that will turn this ship around.
The question is are you up for it?
Steve85, I think you are right and I wish I said the things you wrote. I also probably should have recognized that I would be unable to speak with my wife like that and just stayed out of the kitchen entirely. The fact that she said those things at all caught me by surprise because I expected her to continue being cold and distant to me as she has increasingly been the last two weeks. The entire interaction I think just got added to her "this is why I want a divorce" mental log.
I think my withdrawal in the interaction was also influenced by some other thoughts I was having or feeling when she said those things. She had just bought the french press a month ago, and has been complaining about it recently saying the coffee was weak. So when she says she saw something better, I think "There she goes again, nothing's ever good enough for her and she wants to go buy something else new", which brings up feelings of how I think she feels about our entire relationship. And when she said there were ants, I felt defensive, expecting criticism or blame for there being ants in the house. So yeah, I think and feel a lot of things and blow opportunities for positive interaction.
I will say this. 30 is definitely NOT too young for a MLC. My wife's began at that point. She couldn't deal with losing her youth and aging. At first it was just sadness, but eventually it turned into the "replay" phase where she began reliving her youth and feeling like she was missing out by being married.
MLC's can happen at many different ages.
Sounds like she isn't waiting the full four minutes after adding the grounds to the hot water and stirring, before plunging the press. Common rookie mistake with french presses. She needs let it steep for 4 minutes before plunging.
Oh she's got the 4-minute timer set on her phone and everything. Looks to me like she should just use a finer grind or less water. Not that she cares what I think..
Any more tips on talking to W about divorce? I've avoided that conversation for a long time, and now I've agreed to talk about it with her this weekend (no time set so I could show that I understand it is unavoidable by making more concrete plans with her). I've been wanting to detach and GAL more, both of which I think require establishing financial boundaries. Finally talking about divorce plans could be an opportunity to negotiate on that issue, as well as me telling her I am no longer willing to cook meals for her and do any laundry that would benefit her or clean her bathroom (which our son also uses), essentially requiring her to take care of herself more. I think she appreciates those things, and she may see me withholding them now as punitive. One way I know I can stand my ground with those decisions though is that I want to spend more quality time with my son. Those things I was doing aren't things W asked me to do in the first place, they were just ways I was trying to be the husband I wanted to be. I've always been the one to cook meals, and I have been doing so to show kindness, but I am feeling now that I can't keep putting so much work into our marriage at the level I have been. I don't like the resentment that is building in me over it and the A which I still have not confronted her about and worry if I do it will make divorce negotiations worse. I still am on the fence about an apology letter. I was thinking I could tell her in it that I understand how she feels now, that I suspect she had an affair. I expect to be told by members here not to do that again. Maybe I am just having a hard time letting go.
Any more tips on talking to W about divorce?
STH17,
Tell her you're good with it (divorce), but she'll have to do the divorcing because you're busy with other stuff. Ciao babeee, see ya. Keep it that short and simple and go out and GAL like your life depended on it.
doodler nailed it. Make her do all the work.
so not the 1-2 hours she thought we'd need when I asked her how much time she thought we needed to set aside to talk. hmm..
I do wonder what she expects financially out of a divorce. She's been spending a lot from our joint accounts but keeping her own private checking account hidden. I think she's trying to be gain independence with that account, so I wonder if she thinks that's all she'll get out of a divorce. She might not think she can afford an attorney either. I'd take on all the outstanding debt if she doesn't ask for spousal support.
I guess I'm wanting to say something like this:
"I hear you telling me you want a divorce, and I think that means we can't keep sharing our finances the way we have been doing. I think we both deserve an equal amount of spending money, and I'm not willing to take on any more debt right now."
OR:
"I hear you telling me you want a divorce, how do you think that should affect our current financial arrangements?" If she says she thinks she should still be able to continue what she has been doing, I can disagree with her but still don't know what I would say exactly, besides something like the end of my first scenario.
STH17,
Your wife is cheating on you. First, take care of your financial stuff or she'll drain you dry.
As far as what to say is concerned; I'll tell you what I'd say, but I don't think many on this forum would agree. Here it goes...
"Get your sh*t and get the f*ck out of my house." And with that, the conversation is over.
"Make her do all the work" sounds like another thing I could screw up if I'm not careful. I don't think I should avoid negotiating finances, housing, and custody. Does "make her do all the work" mean impeding the progress of the divorce by taking a long time to sign papers or something like that? Making her do the financial discovery process on her own? If I do that am I just forcing her to get a lawyer, and thereby forcing myself to get one too? I'm meeting for a consultation with one today but I don't really want to litigate.
Making her do all the work means, you don't do anything to make the D proceed. You don't file, let her. Don't sign the papers if you don't want to. IMO, there is no need to discuss the stipulations of D until she has filed. You should probably consult a lawyer either way, so you are aware of your rights and are ready to deal with D if she does decide to file. From reading a lot on this board, I've noticed it's very common for a WW to say they want a D, but do very little to actually make it happen. A lot of the time, they want the LBH to do all the heavy lifting. They're too busy living in their fantasy world to want to deal with something as serious and real as filing for D...
"Make her do all the work" sounds like another thing I could screw up if I'm not careful. I don't think I should avoid negotiating finances, housing, and custody. Does "make her do all the work" mean impeding the progress of the divorce by taking a long time to sign papers or something like that? Making her do the financial discovery process on her own? If I do that am I just forcing her to get a lawyer, and thereby forcing myself to get one too? I'm meeting for a consultation with one today but I don't really want to litigate.
Do you want a D? If not then why would you willing participate in the D? mtb said it well. Let me put it to you this way, when it comes to the D don't do anything that is not required by law or court ordered.
And yes, consult a lawyer. Let him know what your stance is (not wanting D, not wanting to do anything to help with the D).
I know in our modern "me me me" society this scares people. "She's going to take me to the cleaners!" In reality, most divorce courts are pretty fair to both parties.
But make her do the work. If she needs a document don't supply it for her, make her get it. "We need last year's tax return for the D, can you send it to my lawyer?" "No, I can't, I am really busy, but you can get a copy from -tell her where-."
See, you didn't hinder it but you didn't do the work. If she is serious about it she will track the document down herself.
"Make her do all the work" sounds like another thing I could screw up if I'm not careful. I don't think I should avoid negotiating finances, housing, and custody.
This would depend on the R between you and your W. My W and I hired a L to do all the paperwork but she did not represent either one of us. When my EW contacted me and told me she wanted to move forward with D we arranged a time to meet and we discussed everything from the kids, to the house, child support and our finances. It cost us about $800 to get divorced.
In the end I kept the house, we have 50/50 joint custody with the kids with no parent having any more or less rights than the other. All of our finances assets/liabilities were split in 1/2 50/50 and I am paying child support based on our wage difference. I live in a state where someone always pays child support unless their is not a wage discrepancy.
I have a buddy that is a judge and he advised me that the more you can agree on the better. There is no need to mediate on things you already agree on and if you can keep the A's out of it your better off.
Again every sitch is different and only you know what your comfortable with but don't think that you automatically have to L up. Get advice sure, make sure you are educated definitely but don't think you have to pony up.
Only you know your sitch.
Any more tips on talking to W about divorce? I've avoided that conversation for a long time, and now I've agreed to talk about it with her this weekend (no time set so I could show that I understand it is unavoidable by making more concrete plans with her).
If she wants to set a time then agree to it, but don't initiate that convo yourself. For every other situation listening and validating rules the day, but for D talks set that aside and PROTECT YOURSELF. Let her do ALL the talking. Don't agree to anything, whatever she throws out there, just tell her to draft up her proposal and you will review it. It is perfectly fine to remind her you don't want a D. Tell her you understand it's what she wants and you won't stand in the way of it, but it's NOT what you want. Don't do any of the D legwork for her.
Good move on talking to a L, you may want to discuss the financial situation with him and get his suggestions as far as how to address expenses during S. I'm thinking now is a good time to close joint accounts, but ask him about that.
as well as me telling her I am no longer willing to cook meals for her and do any laundry that would benefit her or clean her bathroom (which our son also uses), essentially requiring her to take care of herself more. I think she appreciates those things, and she may see me withholding them now as punitive.
She wants a D. What's more punitive than that? Being her maid is not going to earn you any brownie points or bring her back, but standing up for yourself may get her attention and earn you some respect (even though she will probably complain about it).
STH17,
Your wife is cheating on you. First, take care of your financial stuff or she'll drain you dry.
As far as what to say is concerned; I'll tell you what I'd say, but I don't think many on this forum would agree. Here it goes...
"Get your sh*t and get the f*ck out of my house." And with that, the conversation is over.
As a former WW, I agree with you... Being kind and understanding with a spouse who is having an A is not the way to go... Of course, you can say it with some couth...
My W and I hired a L to do all the paperwork but she did not represent either one of us. When my EW contacted me and told me she wanted to move forward with D we arranged a time to meet and we discussed everything from the kids, to the house, child support and our finances. It cost us about $800 to get divorced.
That's pretty much how we did it as well. My ex was actually surprised I was good with 50-50 custody, for some reason she thought I was going to try for full custody but BD aside she was always a great mom even after she left. We already had separate bank accounts so the financial split wasn't hard to figure out.
In the end I kept the house, we have 50/50 joint custody with the kids with no parent having any more or less rights than the other.
Not sure about other states but in TX you have to designate one parent as "primary" even in a 50-50 split. I think this is mainly for the purpose of determining where the kids go to school. I kept the house so we agreed to designate me as primary.
I have a buddy that is a judge and he advised me that the more you can agree on the better. There is no need to mediate on things you already agree on and if you can keep the A's out of it your better off.
Completely agree. My ex and I worked everything out, then in the 11th hour she decided I owed her another 7k or something like that. I asked her to sit down to explain where the number came from (she sent a rambling email that made no sense at all) and she got VERY angry and said "we'll just let the lawyers fight it out." Honestly the thought of a prolonged court battle started my anxiety attacks all over again, and I decided 7k wasn't worth more lost sleep, lost work and possible health issues. I just agreed to it and moved on, and I'm glad I did. Best 7k I ever threw away, LOL!
AS - I am just down the road from you, on the other side of 35
I actually think I am the primary but we restricted the kids to the town we live in and the school district. If one of us moves then we essentially give up our rights.
Wow I really appreciate all these responses. I met for a consultation and am glad that I did. Put some of my fears at ease about what a divorce may cost me. The person I talked to sounded pretty confident that I would not even have to pay spousal maintenance. And she reminded me that kids are more important, and I should start my focus there. W may want to live in different state than me about 2 hours away, so that is something that may be difficult to agree on, as I don't want to be that far from my son. I shouldn't just agree to live where she wants to though without sticking up for myself. She says moving would make her happy, but just because she says that now doesn't mean that will last. And I can't let her turn that around on me to say I don't care about her happiness if I don't want to move. Truth is I do care about her happiness, but I can't put hers above mine when she is asking for a divorce. I think that needs to be my mantra as I try to detach.
STH17,
Your wife is cheating on you. First, take care of your financial stuff or she'll drain you dry.
As far as what to say is concerned; I'll tell you what I'd say, but I don't think many on this forum would agree. Here it goes...
"Get your sh*t and get the f*ck out of my house." And with that, the conversation is over.
As a former WW, I agree with you... Being kind and understanding with a spouse who is having an A is not the way to go... Of course, you can say it with some couth...
I'm all about couth, so I'm providing the cleaned-up Pulp Fiction version below:
"Pretty please with sugar on top, get your sh*t and get the f*ck out of my house."
Much better.
Told W I didn't want a divorce, she would have to file herself, I couldn't stop her, etc. Now she is saying I am abusing her by holding her hostage in our marriage, by not streamlining the divorce with her. That what I should have told her was there was no way I could expect her to give me another chance. If I don't speak my thoughts to her, she thinks I'm abusing her by withdrawing. If I speak my thoughts and they aren't what she wants to hear, she gets just as hurt and angry. I tried to tell her that as strongly as she wanted a divorce, I did not. That she could choose to file, but I am allowed to make my own choice. She just doesn't understand that and thinks I am being stubborn and controlling. And me being calm gets me accused of being emotionless and robotic.
Told W I didn't want a divorce, she would have to file herself, I couldn't stop her, etc. Now she is saying I am abusing her by holding her hostage in our marriage, by not streamlining the divorce with her. That what I should have told her was there was no way I could expect her to give me another chance. If I don't speak my thoughts to her, she thinks I'm abusing her by withdrawing. If I speak my thoughts and they aren't what she wants to hear, she gets just as hurt and angry. I tried to tell her that as strongly as she wanted a divorce, I did not. That she could choose to file, but I am allowed to make my own choice. She just doesn't understand that and thinks I am being stubborn and controlling. And me being calm gets me accused of being emotionless and robotic.
Yeah, well this is pretty par for the course. WAWs/WWs want their husband to do all the work and then try to guilt them into doing the work when the H refuses.
Also, why are you withdrawing from her? Detachment is not withdrawal. Make sure you are lovingly detaching, not ignoring. Also, calm is emotionless and robotic. This is actually a good sign. She is angry that she has lost control over you by being able to manipulate your emotions. Keep that 180 going!
Withdrawal is my response when I am emotionally flooded. We actually talked about that a bit yesterday. W said she spews when she is flooded, meaning she says hurtful things in anger. I am glad she at least recognizes that. I acknowledged that to her and said that I shut down when I am flooded. We talked about the conflict in the kitchen earlier in the week when she said I didn't understand what was happening. Turns out I didn't. She apparently was just referring to how I was "icing her out", not about my avoidance of talking about divorce.
After we both talked about our experiences and different responses when we are emotionally flooded, I said I thought it would help if we could have a nonverbal signal to let each other know when that was happening to us and that we needed a break from conversation. I wish we had something like that worked out before so I don't just say something like "I'm trying to protect myself" again. I think she was open to that idea but we got sidetracked by something else so never agreed to any signals.
At the end of the night was when she came back downstairs to tell me how angry and abused she felt by me not working with her on the divorce. Especially custody, she thinks I'm refusing to work with her at all on that, that I'm leaving it up to her. I might have told her to come up with a plan by herself and I would review it with her. That just reinforced to her that I'm unwilling to do anything as a team with her. In typical fashion, I was at a loss for words at the end of the conversation, so she had the last word, telling me to write her a letter (since she was done waiting for me to talk).
So now I'm back to the apology letter dilemma, except now it's absolutely expected and I feel even more pressure to write it ASAP. She even told me the only thing I should be saying to her, rather than I want to save our marriage, is that I see how badly I have hurt her and there is no way I could ever expect her to forgive me or want to be in a marriage with me ever again. I can't really argue with that. I want a healed marriage, but I really don't expect that at this point.
Everything in our relationship right now seems to hinge on the emotional abuse narrative my wife is immersed in. I've struggled to know how to move forward with that. The ONLY solution to it seems to be an apology and me releasing her.
She is controlling you with that narrative. And you are letting her. You have already apologized to her so why do you need to do it in writing too?
I will say, I think you are inline for making a huge 180. Stop stonewalling her. You call it "withdrawing when emotionally flooded". A description with an excuse pre-built into it. However, in reality when things aren't going the way you like
(what you call emotionally flooded) you default to a passive-aggressive shutdown. The 180 you could employ is to remain fully engaged throughout the conversation no matter how uncomfortable it may become for you. T:12, M:7, you've probably done this for about 11 years.
Is it emotional abuse? I don't think so. WAW/WW are notorious for blowing things out of proportion to justify what they want to do. Mine told me on bomb day that I was mean. 49 years on planet earth I've never once been called mean. Were we having issues? Absolutely, but while I was grouchy about the state of things, "mean" implies something else completely.
Like you I took full responsibility at first. Then I realized her game. Make overblown complaints about him so he will back off and allow me to do what I want to do. It worked too, at least initially. Then I found DB and the rest, as they say is history. Things started to turn around pretty quickly after that. I 180'd on my nitpicking, complaining, and verbal attacks.
You can turn things around too, but you need to recognize the behaviors that will work and stop the ones that won't. Doing the work for the D, and writing apology letters accepting full responsibility will only land you where you don't want to be: DIVORCED!
So now I'm back to the apology letter dilemma, except now it's absolutely expected and I feel even more pressure to write it ASAP.
STH17,
To craft the perfect apology letter you should definitely not say something like, "I'm so sorry that you're a cheating douchebag." What you do is structure your letter like a scavenger hunt. Give her clues about where she can finder her stuff that you've hidden out in the yard and all around the neighborhood. While she's out gathering her stuff, you can change the locks on the doors.
Now that's a perfect apology letter.
I actually think I am the primary but we restricted the kids to the town we live in and the school district. If one of us moves then we essentially give up our rights.
I think we did the same thing now that you mention it. My ex bought a house about 5 minutes away so it was never much of an issue!
Told W I didn't want a divorce, she would have to file herself, I couldn't stop her, etc. Now she is saying I am abusing her by holding her hostage in our marriage, by not streamlining the divorce with her.
Steve is exactly right, you stood up for yourself, she feels her control over you slipping away and her reaction was very, very predictable. You handled the conversation great, don't worry about her reaction. Even though she'll pout and rant about it, inside there's a bloom of respect for you that's starting to sprout.
I tried to tell her that as strongly as she wanted a divorce, I did not. That she could choose to file, but I am allowed to make my own choice.
Damned straight!
She just doesn't understand that and thinks I am being stubborn and controlling. And me being calm gets me accused of being emotionless and robotic.
She's trying to manipulate you and guilt you. You didn't fall for it, nicely done.
At the end of the night was when she came back downstairs to tell me how angry and abused she felt by me not working with her on the divorce. Especially custody, she thinks I'm refusing to work with her at all on that, that I'm leaving it up to her. I might have told her to come up with a plan by herself and I would review it with her. That just reinforced to her that I'm unwilling to do anything as a team with her. In typical fashion, I was at a loss for words at the end of the conversation, so she had the last word, telling me to write her a letter (since she was done waiting for me to talk
She was not asking for a letter of apology!
Look, I well understand the frustration on her end. My H would shut down and say nothing. The more he shut down, the more upset I became. It was a vicious cycle. I could not understand him and how or why he couldn't just open his darn mouth and say something. I would get so hurt and angry, I would say terrible things trying to get some kind of a response from him.
Based on your description of the conversation, she wants you to write down what you want in the divorce, custody, etc. You were flooded and couldn't find the words to speak, so she's telling you to write them down.
I will say, I think you are inline for making a huge 180. Stop stonewalling her. You call it "withdrawing when emotionally flooded". A description with an excuse pre-built into it. However, in reality when things aren't going the way you like
(what you call emotionally flooded) you default to a passive-aggressive shutdown. The 180 you could employ is to remain fully engaged throughout the conversation no matter how uncomfortable it may become for you. T:12, M:7, you've probably done this for about 11 years.
Is it emotional abuse? I don't think so. WAW/WW are notorious for blowing things out of proportion to justify what they want to do. Mine told me on bomb day that I was mean. 49 years on planet earth I've never once been called mean. Were we having issues? Absolutely, but while I was grouchy about the state of things, "mean" implies something else completely.
I agree with you, and I think if I could 180 on this effectively I wouldn't have a lot of the problems I have now in my MR. The other 180 thing I've done that actually seemed to get noticed by W was talking to her about conflicts instead of ignoring them.
Our marriage counselor was the first one to call my behavior emotional abuse, and that was our last appointment together before he transitioned into being only W's individual therapist.
She was not asking for a letter of apology!
Look, I well understand the frustration on her end. My H would shut down and say nothing. The more he shut down, the more upset I became. It was a vicious cycle. I could not understand him and how or why he couldn't just open his darn mouth and say something. I would get so hurt and angry, I would say terrible things trying to get some kind of a response from him.
Based on your description of the conversation, she wants you to write down what you want in the divorce, custody, etc. You were flooded and couldn't find the words to speak, so she's telling you to write them down.
Well that means I probably need to start all over with what I had written. Unfortunately I dug myself a hole yesterday where now I do need to give her some letter, as she knows I was writing and before finishing writing the real letter I just gave her a short note which said: "Dear W, I'm not done writing, but I can't write any more tonight. I am taking all this seriously, and I'm sorry for the pain you have felt and are feeling now. Goodnight. -H"
I went back and forth between "I'm sorry for the pain you have felt and are feeling now" and "I'm sorry for the pain I have caused you." Doing some reading today about what makes a good apology I learned I chose the wrong wording. At least she didn't take the note from me, I just showed it to her and kept it myself. Maybe I need to lower my expectations about what this letter is supposed to be then. Perfectionism is what I have been working on in therapy myself too.
Well no letter writing tonight because I was worried W's depression was heading towards suicidal. She came home from her workout and laid on the front lawn motionless staring at the sky for twenty minutes, then came inside and sobbed in the shower. Heard water sloshing so followed S4 into the bathroom. She was lying in the tub with her clothes on, but tub was drained, my worst fears not realized. Got son in bed, then went back to be with her. Told her I knew I wasn't the person she wanted to talk to, but could I get someone on the phone for her? She said nothing mattered. Eventually she got out and went to bed. I called a suicide hotline, first time I've done that. I checked up on her after that call and found she had dressed for bed but still depressed of course. It's hard to see her like this. She said I win, that I get to keep her as my bird in a cage. She feels utterly hopeless. What is detachment supposed to look like in this situation? I'm not a therapist and can't treat her depression, and at the same time to her I am triggering her depression now. I dunno any answers, so I'm writing this here and going to sleep.
Well it's hard to say whether she is well and truly depressed/ suicidal or just being a drama queen to get a reaction out of you. What did the suicide hotline suggest? My suggestion to you is pull back, don't write the letter, don't try to talk about the R. Maybe ask her if she wants to talk to someone and offer to pay for it. If she shuts down on you then don't keep pushing her. If things don't improve or get worse then call that number again.
STH17,
It sounds to me like her boyfriend dumped her so she has to return to her husband so she can be the bird in his cage. She's playing you. I hate that sh*t.
STH17,
It sounds to me like her boyfriend dumped her so she has to return to her husband so she can be the bird in his cage. She's playing you. I hate that sh*t.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS * INFINITY
Likely he got tired of waiting or had no intention of it becoming anything permanent or found a new side piece, or any number of reasons why AP's dump the WW. Regardless, this is going to last a while (her sadness). She was addicted to the A and it will take her a while to get over the addiction. Detachment means what it always means, remain calm, cool. When she wants to talk, listen and validate her feelings. And make sure you aren't sitting around waiting for her. That means GAL like a madman. Stay as busy as you possibly can, even if that is just being outside doing yard work.
In 2005 when my wife went through her EA withdrawal, it was a good 6 weeks before she was back to any semblance of normal.
If you search it will come up. Go through all the search results.
ok....is it the one with 6 members?
STH17,
It sounds to me like her boyfriend dumped her so she has to return to her husband so she can be the bird in his cage. She's playing you. I hate that sh*t.
This is definitely a possibility, but I think it had more to do with me telling her I didn't want to divorce the day before. She wants out and I'm not making that easy for her. She thinks I am not respecting her decision, and that I am being controlling. Maybe I could ask her what happiness looks like to her, and what steps she needs to take to get there. I think if she is too depressed to file for divorce on her own, she is not ready to divorce. It is her choice to make though.
I've been wondering if it would be appropriate for me to call her therapist (our former marriage counselor), or one of her best friends to ask them to call her this morning. I have a strong urge to do that, but I think that would be an emotional response out of my own fear and discomfort in seeing W like this, so I haven't contacted either of them. My other fear is that W would think I am trying to exert control over the few safe relationships she has right now. If I am to prioritize detachment, I think I should not contact anyone. I feel scared doing that though.
I think she needs to feel free to make choices about her life. If she feels traped and sees no way out of a miserable existence, then it could cause her to be more depressed. However, I don't understand why she wouldn't just leave to be with OM. Is he M with kids? Why is she still living with you? Usually, the OM is seen by the WW as an escape route for her dreary life.
Maybe she sees this as you not cooperating and more of your controlling behavior.
I don't think it is wise in every single case to refuse to cooperate. It doesn't mean you want the D.
If my S wanted away from me bad enough to threaten or hint at suicide, I believe I could let him go.
IDK, it may be a trick, but I would not call her bluff. I mean......who would want to live with that type of responsibility, to think she'd see suicide as her only escape.
I think she needs to feel free to make choices about her life. If she feels traped and sees no way out of a miserable existence, then it could cause her to be more depressed.
Except that this is standard play from the WW/WAW playbook. Almost all of them say "I feel trapped" especially if they don't get their way with the LBH leaving the house, the MBR, doing the D work, etc. No one can make her feel trapped except herself.
My wife played the "trapped" card early on. Even started saying things like "I don't know, maybe I can be ok with it if we sleep in separate beds". I never tried to stop her, if she wanted to sleep somewhere else she was free to, but I wasn't leaving the marital bed.
Either OM dumped her and she is in the grieving process of losing that R, or she is trying to manipulate and control him. Time will tell.
Yesterday W was admitted to ER after her regularly scheduled therapy appointment. And she is going into a partial hospitilization program next week. I really hope it includes medication, which she has been resistant to trying, and I don't think anyone has ever recommended to her. One thing that has kept me hanging onto M is believing things could turn around if she really got effective treatment for her depression. At this point though I don't expect it to bring her back to me. Probably will just get her the strength to divorce me.
I don't know what to think about W's depression. I am ashamed that my behavior worsened her depression, and that I didn't help her when she was depressed.
I'mhanging my signature from "PA: 5/6/18-..." to "PA: 5/6/18?" because I don't know exactly what happened when she was out of the house that day, and haven't found any concrete evidence since then. Focusing on A isn't helping me either. Taking care of myself is going to be more difficult with W in the hospital next week, but this seems like special circumstances I am willing to make sacrifices for her during. As she was telling me when she would be gone next week, I told her we could make plans together for making sure our son was taken care of, or I could even take a week off of work and watch him, or just take care of all the arrangements for him myself. Her reply "I have to say I'm surprised to hear you say that." That's been a good 180 behavior for me, to be flexible about my work schedule and making W a priority over my work. Not the first time in the last six months W has been surprised by that and said so.
She just shared an article on Facebook today (publicly, not just with me) about Love Bombing, which was described as manipulative behavior of showering someone with love at the beginning of a relationship to establish dominance in the relationship, and then punish the victim by withdrawing the love. W has often shared articles like that in the past, and I don't know if I should talk to her about them or ignore them. I always feel like she is accusing me with them, and reinforcing her victimized feelings. A 180 for me would be to ask her about the article instead of ignoring it. I could just ask her if Love Bombing has been her experience. Of course that opens myself to more attacks and criticism, or could trigger more pain for her.
Yeah, don't touch the subject of that article with a 10 foot pole. When spouse want out and don't have a good reason for that want, they will find anyway they can to justify that. This love bombing thing is a crock. Falling in love at the beginning of a relationship is natural. And that limerance phase doesn't last. Eventually you settle into a deeper loving relationship, which doesn't require constant affirmation of love, affection, and all the rest of what goes with the "falling in love" phase.
The problem is that many people are addicted to that phase. And once that phase naturally subsides they go looking for it elsewhere. That isn't love bombing, that is a natural maturation of a relationship.
Now, it is true that dominant and controlling people will eventually show their true colors after the limerance phase, but even that is overblown. Could you have been more loving? Understanding? Caring? Probably, since we all could be better about that. But that doesn't mean you are guilty of what this article is suggesting.
Let it lie. Keep 180ing, GAL (yes I know it is tough with kids), and being the best STH that you can be.
From someone who was in the same place as you this time last year. Your W doesn't give a damn about your feelings. No amount of begging, pleading or applying logic to the situation is going to change that. Forget being cordial or kissing her butt in an attempt no to upset her. Because she still won't care. You need to solely focus on yourself and your child. Consider W a loss and prepare yourself mentally to move on.
Your W had an A and probably hasn't even really offered an apology for it. But is walking around like her stuff doesn't stink. You want to feel better, then let her see you getting ready to move on.
Except that this is standard play from the WW/WAW playbook. Almost all of them say "I feel trapped" especially if they don't get their way with the LBH leaving the house, the MBR, doing the D work, etc. No one can make her feel trapped except herself.
Correct, when she is "pitching" her excuses as to why she wants out. I was referring to the WW's depression and
truly feeling as if there is no escape for her. I felt it when I made the hard decision to end my A. I immediately felt as if I was doomed to live in an unhappy M. And, I might add.....it was before the grieving process even had time to begin.
The WW in this case, is suffering from serious depression. She had not been grieving the OM, if she was preparing to be with him. If the OM dumped her, or something else happened to end her plans to be with OM......then she could feel trapped in the MR. Thus, her desperation to end it.
One thing that has kept me hanging onto M is believing things could turn around if she really got effective treatment for her depression. At this point though I don't expect it to bring her back to me. Probably will just get her the strength to divorce me.
OMG! Don't you want her to just
live and be healthy? I suspect she can probably sense this type of attitude from you......which is not healthy for either of you.
I don't know what to think about W's depression. I am ashamed that my behavior worsened her depression, and that I didn't help her when she was depressed.
Take it seriously. Learn all that you can. You can't be angry at her for being depressed, when you don't even know what has caused it. You can't think selfishly about what
you want.....or try to control her. You have to stop controlling. Even if she doesn't want to stay in the M.....you have to stop controlling.
It's one thing to play the victim card, but when she is considering suicide.....it's no game. I need to refresh my memory about your sitch, but I think this girl is crying out and maybe that could have been behind the PA, too. I hope medication helps, but she may need therapy, as well.
While she is in the hospital, don't GAL. Take care of your child, and visit your W......
if she wants you there. Do NOT discuss the MR, or OM, or PA. This is not the time. Try to think of light hearted things and not discuss anything heavy. It is not necessary to talk about anything. Just being there, is enough.
I could just ask her if Love Bombing has been her experience. Of course that opens myself to more attacks and criticism, or could trigger more pain for her
This is not the time. It may have been a reference to something she's learned about OM. Stop taking everything so personally. You've got to keel out, while she is getting better. Frankly, I'm surprised she was allowed to have her phone (with FB, etc).
Nothing, even the M, is more important than her getting mentally healthier.
OMG! Don't you want her to just live and be healthy? I suspect she can probably sense this type of attitude from you......which is not healthy for either of you.
You are right, and what you are saying here is what W is telling me too. I tried to be respectful of the distance she wanted, but at the same time I always was trying to work on decreasing that distance, building trust to restore our MR. I didn't understand just how badly she was truly hurting, that she wasn't just angrily shutting me out, but really needed me gone so she could heal. I was still stuck on saving the marriage.
Take it seriously. Learn all that you can. You can't be angry at her for being depressed, when you don't even know what has caused it. You can't think selfishly about what you want.....or try to control her. You have to stop controlling. Even if she doesn't want to stay in the M.....you have to stop controlling.
It's one thing to play the victim card, but when she is considering suicide.....it's no game. I need to refresh my memory about your sitch, but I think this girl is crying out and maybe that could have been behind the PA, too. I hope medication helps, but she may need therapy, as well.
While she is in the hospital, don't GAL. Take care of your child, and visit your W......if she wants you there. Do NOT discuss the MR, or OM, or PA. This is not the time. Try to think of light hearted things and not discuss anything heavy. It is not necessary to talk about anything. Just being there, is enough.
She's been in therapy this whole time over the past six months. It seemed to have been helping, she was getting better, and our relationship seemed better. She went from leaving rooms when I entered them to actually coming into them when I was there. Not because I was there, but the fact she felt comfortable enough to do so was good I thought. That all fell apart when I asked her about the message I read on her phone. She was angry I was snooping, and I backed off of all the positive connection-building behaviors I had been implementing. I became a fearful person again in her presence, then was depressed for a week myself after the PA day.
Nothing, even the M, is more important than her getting mentally healthier.
I always thought the two did not have to be mutually exclusive. But I see how that belief can be controlling. From the very beginning of our separation I struggled with that very question of whether trying to save our marriage was manipulative when W made it clear she didn't want that. I think I need to let your words sink in some more.
So do I file jointly, or help her file by herself and act as the respondent? Either way, don't bring it up again until she does? That would be like I'm avoiding the conflict.
You say stop taking things so personally, yet here's W's shared FB post for today: "Apologies don't mean anything if you keep doing what you're sorry for"
I don't know what to do anymore. I was going to go rock climbing tonight to give W some space. Scratch that? And tomorrow morning is a men's group breakfast I normally go to a couple times a month. I could skip the breakfast and just take care of my son tomorrow morning. The partial hospitilization program starts tomorrow.
So do I file jointly, or help her file by herself and act as the respondent? Either way, don't bring it up again until she does? That would be like I'm avoiding the conflict.
I would tell her that if she wants a D, you will sign the papers. She already knows you don't want it. This is just my opinion. Considering her mental health, I don't see how it saves the MR to refuse to cooperate with the paperwork. Let her go, and if she loves you.....she'll come back to you.
You say stop taking things so personally, yet here's W's shared FB post for today: "Apologies don't mean anything if you keep doing what you're sorry for"
Let me guess, she is addicted to FB. I bet she shares these type of sayings throughout each day. What if she meant to hit you smack in the face with it? Now what? Will it change anything?
I don't know what to do anymore. I was going to go rock climbing tonight to give W some space. Scratch that? And tomorrow morning is a men's group breakfast I normally go to a couple times a month. I could skip the breakfast and just take care of my son tomorrow morning. The partial hospitilization program starts tomorrow.
Well, I thought if she was having to stay in the hospital for depression or attempting suicide........it wasn't an ideal time to be GAL. But if she is on some type of out-patient program, I guess you could do whatever you planned. You did tell her you would keep son and/or make needed arrangements for him.
I thought she was still living in the house with you. You mentioned the separation, are you referring to in-house S?
Right now it is in-house separation, but it was out-of-house separation with me staying with friends from Dec. to Feb. During that time I would still pick up son to take him to preschool twice a week and visit him most evenings, then leave after putting him to bed. I "asked for what I wanted", to come back to the house, when I thought W was ready for it.
Let me guess, she is addicted to FB. I bet she shares these type of sayings throughout each day. What if she meant to hit you smack in the face with it? Now what? Will it change anything?
Yeah she's on FB all day long. She says it helps soothe her, especially if she is feeling anxious while we are having a conversation and I'm taking a while to respond. That's always bothered me, but my own therapist says I should let it go and not be controlling by asking her to put the phone down while we're talking. She posts things like that when she is more depressed or angry at me.
I think it's time for me to take the emotional abuse problem more seriously. There is no denying W feels abused by me. I just found a book I want to get from the library: The emotionally abusive relationship: how to stop being abused and how to stop abusing, by Beverly Engel. I shouldn't be trying to save my marriage without really focusing on eliminating all behavior of mine that may be emotionally abusive. And that's going to require an apology letter. I don't know when, I wish I'd done it already, but that probably still would have been premature, which is why I haven't done anything yet. And as W has said, I should not be asking her to have a better marriage with me without me first making amends for the abuse she has felt. Even if I do that, she doesn't owe me a second chance or anything. Our marriage is just over. Seems like I might as well file jointly.
What wxactly have you done that would be considered emotional abuse? The reason I ask is because my W throws the term around rather loosely. Anytime I disagreed with her, I was being emotionally abusive...
What wxactly have you done that would be considered emotional abuse? The reason I ask is because my W throws the term around rather loosely. Anytime I disagreed with her, I was being emotionally abusive...
That's the question I've been agonizing over this whole time since our marriage counselor (who is now W's individual therapist) said my behavior was emotional abuse. I don't have time to list everything now but that's something I need to make time to do soon. Usually when I think about the list I do think of justifications/rationalizations for my behavior, which just traps me in a loop of questioning whether it was really abuse or not. Like you say, to disagree that it was abuse amounts to abuse.
FTR, I believe, and have heard other experts and psychologists say the same thing, that emotional abuse and verbal abuse are used way too liberally nowadays. My W has said leveled the same accusation at me, yet I haven't been half as emotionally abusive nor verbally abusive as she has been. I honestly think that if your actions hurt their feelings (emotional abuse) or if your words hurt their feelings (verbal abuse) then they default to this stance.
For anyone reading this that has been the victim of emotional and/or verbal abuse, please know I am not suggesting there is no such thing. Just that when someone uses it when it doesn't apply it waters down the actual emotional and verbal abuse that actually does occur.
I should have been more clear. It was anytime I disagreed with her on anything, she considered it emotional abuse. If she did not get what she wanted, and I stuck up for myself and stood my ground, she considered it emotional abuse. Funny thing is, during these arguments, she was the one that would do the cussing and name calling, not me. Yet, in her mind, I was the one being emotionally abusive. I think the term gets thrown around very loosely by a lot of people because it is not as easily identified as other types of abuse like physical or sexual...
I should have been more clear. It was anytime I disagreed with her on anything, she considered it emotional abuse. If she did not get what she wanted, and I stuck up for myself and stood my ground, she considered it emotional abuse. Funny thing is, during these arguments, she was the one that would do the cussing and name calling, not me. Yet, in her mind, I was the one being emotionally abusive. I think the term gets thrown around very loosely by a lot of people because it is not as easily identified as other types of abuse like physical or sexual...
As I said, if your actions (emotional) or words (verbal) hurt their feelings than in their minds it must be abuse. And a lot of counselors are idiots for throwing those terms around so lightly. A counselor worth their salt would be very careful using the word abuse.
That's always bothered me, but my own therapist says I should let it go and not be controlling by asking her to put the phone down while we're talking
Well, I see this ^^^^as requiring a certain amount of respect during a conversation. But maybe that's just me.
Addiction comes in many forms. The person will turn to their addiction to calm or excite.....it makes no difference.
I shouldn't be trying to save my marriage without really focusing on eliminating all behavior of mine that may be emotionally abusive. And that's going to require an apology letter.
Read the book, first.
Does your therapist agree that you have controlling tendencies?
IMHO, you need to see "how" you may have been emotionally abusive. Writing an apology letter won't be worth a pinch of salt if you can't identify "how" you tried to control her. Recognizing what you did and how you did it, is essential in changing. Then, write her an apology letter from that view of
knowing and deeply regretting how you treated her.
I hope you will do this as a means of fixing yourself, and hopefully, preventing futher abusive behavior. I believe it is critical to the healing, if there is to ever be a future together.
Well, pretty sure W is still having PA now. She's even got a pattern now, going out on Sundays, getting dressed up nice. Only other time she ever does that is for her job. This time when she left home her bag of sex toys was out on the bed, the only thing missing from it being condoms this time. Just found that a few minutes ago and came to write this. I feel betrayed and angry.
I got the book I mentioned previously, and another one, You Don't Have to Take It Anymore by Steven Stosny. From what I've read so far I can tell that the Stosny book probably could have saved my marriage if I knew I needed it two years ago. I understand it's probably too late to save my marriage now, and W is becoming less and less attractive to me the further she strays. The Stosny book says resentment is the root of emotional abuse, and it must be replaced by compassion for healing to happen. The book is also big on developing one's sense of core value, both for the abuser and victim. The book also shuns those labels, as neither are really integral to a person's core value and true identity. So lots of good stuff in there, probably too late for my current marriage but worth working through for myself and my son and any future relationships I might engage in.
I took care of my son all last week, only working 4 hours instead of 12 at my part-time job. And I went to the dentist on Friday and paid almost $600 for three fillings. And our car needed a new alternator this week which cost $800. W's hospitilization is likely to cost a few thousand as well. I've always paid off our credit cards in full every month, but we might now have to start carrying a balance.
We are now in the time period where W has always said she would be leaving. Her job has ended, and so has son's preschool. We don't have any plans for him to attend school next year, which I feel really bad about. He has asked several times what comes next after summer, if he's going to a new school. I'm heartbroken because I don't have any good answer for him. Eventually we'll have to tell him mom and dad won't be living together with him anymore either. He doesn't deserve a broken family, and it makes me so sad.
STH - The only winners in separations are lawyers and as always the big loser in any break up is the kids. M y S is hurting so bad. The only thing I can do is be the best DAD possible. Stay well!!
W texted me an hour ago saying she wasn't going to make it home tonight. I decided, or reacted emotionally, by coming to sleep in the bed instead of the couch I've been on for the last several months. I can't sleep though. I didn't respond to her text. I assume she is sleeping over at AP's place. Do I keep pretending I don't know or don't care? what would I say? Thanks for the heads up, have a good night? That makes me sick. "Don't bother coming back" is more what I'm thinking. I think I've seen enough to confirm an affair. I don't want to carry her shameful secret for her. I don't even know if she feels shame, or maybe just fear at what I would do if I found out. I'm angry now that I'm spending so much time worrying about what she thinks. I'm not going to reply to her. Not this time. I get to give myself that much. I don't even feel comfortable in my own bed anymore.
Do I keep pretending I don't know or don't care? what would I say? Thanks for the heads up, have a good night? That makes me sick. "Don't bother coming back" is more what I'm thinking.
STH17,
Oh h3ll yes, "don't bother coming back" is the correct response. Some of the brethren in the DB crowd may not agree, but dude, if you let that sh*t go on right under your nose, your wife will know you're the biggest wuss on the planet.
I'd go so far as to say you should put her sh*t on the front lawn and change the locks. F*ck being Mr. Wussypants.
Man,
Have been there and it [censored].
I found WWs sex toys bought to be used with another guy and it sickened me to the max. I confronted her right away when I was 100% sure, and there began my journey to heal.
Not even close there yet, but making baby steps every day.
Good luck to you as well, hope for the best to you and your son!
STH, knowing that your wife is having an affair but having her not know that you know is the worst. When my husband first didn't come home due to his first big affair I wanted to throw his laptop out the window. I didn't do it but the pain of suffering silently while your spouse is out having the best time of their life at your expense is so unfair. I also wonder how people who have kids can just not come home. What about your son?! I was too easy on my husband and he continued having affairs even after the first one ended. I guess it becomes a lifestyle for them or they feel entitled. It's so sad that the person we married can disappear like that and not only commit such crimes but not even care in the least about our pain. Even if your wife was depressed at one point and you weren't sensitive to her, what about what she's doing to you now? Isn't this worse? I could go on for a long time but basically it sounds like you took the right steps with counseling and retrouville and working on the marriage. You're also doing the right thing now by containing your emotions but it's really, really hard. In a way it's more liberating to bust your wife in the middle of one of her fun nights out than to stay quiet but you have an innocent child to protect and want to proceed cautiously for his sake. I fully sympathize with what a horrible experience you're going through!
Do I keep pretending I don't know or don't care? what would I say? Thanks for the heads up, have a good night? That makes me sick. "Don't bother coming back" is more what I'm thinking.
STH17,
Oh h3ll yes, "don't bother coming back" is the correct response. Some of the brethren in the DB crowd may not agree, but dude, if you let that sh*t go on right under your nose, your wife will know you're the biggest wuss on the planet.
I'd go so far as to say you should put her sh*t on the front lawn and change the locks. F*ck being Mr. Wussypants.
I agree Doodler, but I would be more likely to say 'don't come back until........' or 'if you come back your stuff will be in the spare room....' or 'after this you are sleeping on the couch'.
It's just disrespectful and brazen. Entitled awful behaviour.
Set your boundary and hold it.
V
STH - The only winners in separations are lawyers and as always the big loser in any break up is the kids. M y S is hurting so bad. The only thing I can do is be the best DAD possible. Stay well!!
Try reframing this.
The winner in this is the LBS and kids, they grow through it.
It's awesome growth in my book.
V
Oh and move back in the MBR at minimum her stuff in boxes.
V
Doodler, you're the little red devil on my shoulder. It's so tempting to do exactly as you say. I just think that would turn the divorce into something even uglier though. But I agree I need to draw a line that prioritizes my self-respect over my self-sacrifice for a marriage my W has left. I had tried making my wife my priority for six months, and I might have continued if she hadn't started an affair. She wants (or wanted) unconditional love from me in our marriage. I think I need a separation from her to figure out if that's possible. How do you love someone who has no respect for you, tells you they hate you, wants a divorce, and cheats on you? When she asked me to leave in December because she "wasn't healing" with me there, I protested saying I didn't see how our marriage could be healed by creating even more distance between us. We were still seeing our marriage counselor at that point so I thought working on our marriage was a common goal. I don't think that was ever her goal when we were in marriage counseling. Now I think my wife is gone beyond recovery, and to put any more energy into saving our marriage only makes me lose myself too. I've lost myself just as much as she has lost herself in our marriage. I had wanted to find ourselves together. I don't think I've told her that in those words, but that would just be an emotional plea at this point too soooo too late, irrelevant? My wants and desires mean nothing to her. Yet I still am torn between pursuing a job close to where we live now, or moving out of state closer to family like she wants to. That's something I need to do this week, is just apply to all the jobs I've found that I'm interested in, regardless of where they are.
Thank you Nicole. I cried reading your post. You have a talent for validation.
Don't bother coming back" is more what I'm thinking. I think I've seen enough to confirm an affair. I don't want to carry her shameful secret for her. I don't even know if she feels shame, or maybe just fear at what I would do if I found out.
That is fine ^^^^^^^^^, if you aren't doing it just b/c you are upset. Don't do it if you are trying to get her to feel a particular emotion, like shame, guilt, embarrassment, etc. Make your decisions about what you won't tolerate.......not her feelings. See what I am saying?
Sometimes the LBS's misunderstand and think I am saying they have to tolerate their wayward S's affair. To be clear......I am not. I simply try to inform the LBS (especially H's) that it seldom affects the wayward's feelings or actions. I think WW's are the worst about not leaving the home when they've been busted for an A.
You don't have to cover for her affair. In fact, you can blow the lid off this little party whenever you decide you've had enough. I just want you to understand that it usually doesn't go like the LBH thinks it will. Somewhere in the back of his head, he thinks she will respond like her former self........but she won't. She will probably try to gaslight you. She will probably try to remain in the home, especially if she has no other options. I hope she won't, b/c this just rubs the H's nose in the A when she stays in the home. Do 't expect her to do the honorable thing.
Therefore, do whatever you need to do to protect your self respect........but do it with your eyes wide open. Your knowledge of her A will not cause her to end it.
"Don't bother coming back" is what I was thinking when I was angry. It's not what i really want to say.
It doesn't seem like there is anything to be gained by continued acts of service, or emotional vulnerability from myself, or an apology, or compassion towards my wife. She has said she wants to be friends. I think I need to lead with that, and ask her what that means to her. Then I'll tell her what it means to me. I don't go grocery shopping and cook dinners for my friends. I don't give more than half my spending money to my friends. I don't put myself into debt so my friends can have spending money. I don't give up my bed indefinitely for a friend. I don't choose where to live and what job to take for a friend (though I will make considerations for my son, and I may have to make a sacrifice for him). I also don't pay for my friends' housing, utilities, student loan payments, and health care, but those are things I think I am on the hook for as long as we are married, and we'll have to work them out in a divorce settlement agreement. Basically all these things are things I've had some resentment growing for a long time. And I've struggled with whether I need to just stop being resentful, or actually establish boundaries with these things. As I learned from the Stosny book, abuse stems from resentment, so I'm wary of pushing for these boundaries when I feel like they are based on my resentments.
You say I can blow the lid off whenever I decide I've had enough. I think I've had enough, but am scared to tell her.
"You say I can blow the lid off whenever I decide I've had enough. I think I've had enough, but am scared to tell her."
Then you haven't had enough. Having enough isn't something that you get an inkling of, when you've had enough it will outweigh all else and you will have ZERO fear of telling her.
Well I know by the time I get home tonight I will want to avoid a confrontation entirely. I'll be exhausted because it's been on my mind since she texted me last night. I have a bit of work to get done in the meantime. I know a small accomplishment will help me feel better about myself. Maybe I need to also work towards feeling good about myself regardless of how much work I get done. Sigh, I have a lot of work to get done though..
Well, I chickened out tonight. We hardly spoke to each other, and she tossed my blanket and pillow into the hallway without saying a word about me having slept in the bed last night. Of course I haven't said a word about her affair either. She was taking a shower and left her phone on the bed. Lock screen showed FB messages from a friend of hers. I now know the friend is aware of W's affair, and is supportive of it. I got angry after reading that. My anger is mixed with disgust. I went to this friend's daughter's 4th birthday party in march with my W and son. I was more hopeful about M then. I was actually invited to go, and the highlight was when W rubbed her toes over mine while we stood next to each other. Times like that make me think I almost was successful at repairing the R. But a few mistakes dashed all that, because there was no margin for error with how strongly W felt about being emotionally abused and her waiting for me to hurt her again.
going to sleep now. On the couch. I will not let sleeping on the couch affect my self-worth anymore though. I know I don't deserve the shame of it. Next is doing doing more to boost my self-respect. I don't think that's something I need to claim from W. My worth doesn't belong to her.
STH you are extending your pain. Take back your bed. put her stuff out on the porch. change the locks. Stand your ground and be Alpha.
Its time to let the cat out of the bag, all you are doing is allowing the cycle of abuse to endure.
OrangeK, I may be slow to come around on this, but I may get there. When people say things like "put her stuff out on the porch", how much stuff are we talking here? A bag of essentials? A toothbrush and one change of clothes? I packed my own bag when I left. And actually the irony is there were two times in the past when she packed her own bag to leave and I followed her around while she did it, wanting to talk about the issue that had her upset enough to leave. It would take a week to get ALL her stuff out of the house. Though she does have a habit herself of "cleaning" by putting anything she doesn't want in her space out into hallways or common areas of the house, never to touch them again. In the past I've moved that stuff back into the closets they came out of. Can I start with just taking the bedroom back and making her have the couch? I'll probably be posting a lot more often here in the near future as I try to sort this all out. Change is due for sure, and I need to stand up for myself.
This morning I asked W to pick up our son from my school when she is done with her counseling session. She agreed, and I asked her to watch him for the night. Didn't tell her my plans, but she probably knows I'll be going climbing. I am in a mens group that meets weekly by videoconference, and I'll be attending that call at school. It ends at 10:30, so W will probably be in bed when I return home.
I can tell you from personal experience, languishing around the house and hoping for nuggets of hope wont help. You know shes having the A. It needs to be addressed, shes getting more complacent day by day. Learn from my mistakes.
I suspected A for a while, and when i sacked up and confronted her about it i bought each lie she fed me, she will lie when confronted.
I begged, pleaded and tried to do MC and so on.
its all wasted breath. you need to assert yourself, be calm, cool, and collected but firm and solid.
SLEEP IN YOUR OWN DMAN BED. that is BS, she is the one cheating, she can leave.
She is abusing you dude. straight up emotional abuse. Dont stand for it. I can tell you it hurts. I am still hurting A LOT. It sux, but its time to either submit to a lifetime of abuse and being a provider cuck or its time to man up, take charge of your family and protect S4.
Read my Sitch man, i screwed up several times, i still screw up now. I give better advice than i consider for myself.
Being Mr Nice Guy will get you nothing but pain
STH17,
Please stay away from her phone, computer, mail etc. as if they are radioactive. Nothing good comes from reading any of that. This is my one biggest regret. Bigger than pursuing, being rude, unreasonable etc. First, you are disrespecting her and her right to privacy. Second, you are just torturing yourself.
Not sure what your situation regarding the couch is, but try to figure out what to do about it. It does not make sense to sleep in the bed when she is out, and on the couch when she is in your bed. I treat my dog the same way she treats you.
Make a decision, and either sleep on the couch because you decided to do so, or sleep in your bed because you decided so. Either way, do it without arguing with your W, even if she goes berserk. If you decide to fight for your bed, just go in lie there and go to sleep. If she starts arguing, screaming etc. Just say this is your bed (implying she can sleep wherever she wants, and you will do so too) and you decided to sleep in it. You do not need any other arguments. Just make sure you do not get into a fight with her. Be like Mahatma Gandhi - nonviolent resistance.
Can I start with just taking the bedroom back and making her have the couch?
See my other post. Hope it helps. Just do not make her take the couch. She is free to do what she sees best. If you do not want to sleep in the same bed with her, that is a different story, that would explain why you may want to sleep on the couch. But other than that, I do not see why you won't sleep in your bed, as it is your own.
I honestly do not see the value of "putting her stuff out on the porch". Do you want to separate? If so, then file for divorce. If not, why are you kicking her out. If you are still trying to save your M, then go dark, do not pay attention to what she does and work on detaching and GAL. Putting her stuff on the porch is an ultimatum that is both pursuing and leading to D, IMO.
I'll be honest getting in an actual physical fight with her is one worry of mine, not that we ever have before. She's been taking kickboxing classes for the last several months though, and has anger issues of her own. She might just sulk away. Son's bedroom door is just outside MBR, so if I just take the bed and lock the door, she may have to stay quiet. I'm sure she would be ultra-pissed though. She may leave the house. She was suicidal the last time I stood up for myself saying I didn't want a divorce, which has me worried too. She has been in intensive therapy every day for the past week for that, and tomorrow is the last day of that therapy. She then is going to start a 3-hour a day, 3x/week therapy schedule (I think that was the schedule).
The minimum evidence I can confront her with about the affair is that she has gone out on three Sundays suspiciously dressed and made up as if for a date, then comes home very late (or not at all this past Sunday) after having spent money on one meal for herself and buying other things for herself with our joint credit card, but brings home leftovers from restaurants that never show up on our credit card statement. I've uncovered far more but most of that would allow her to accuse me of snooping. I also saw a gas station transaction for this last Sunday that shows she drove pretty far in our "unsafe" vehicle neither of us typically wants to drive more than 10 miles anywhere. So she had somewhere she wanted to go that was important enough to her to do that and not request the more reliable car. It was more important to her to hide where she was going. I said I needed the more reliable car so I could use it with my son, and ended up going bowling with him which was a lot of fun.