Thanks cadet!
Well today once she got off shift, pick up of our D was much more relaxed than yesterday. After my calling her on being disrespectful, yesterday she was in and out as fast as possible.
One thing I wish I hadn't done. Thinking about our little fight, I think it was her baiting me more than anything. Almost like if she does and I get angry she can think me the bad guy and justify her feelings. Thanks to Accuray I'll be prepared next time. I was calm, cool and confident today. Breezy as I've heard it described here and ZERO pursuit. Kinda taking it as a challenge to see how good I can get at being that way.
Steve, yep thanks for the confirm on the ring. That was my feeling all along. No matter what she did, I'm a married man sticking to my vows til the law says other wise. Ring stays on.
ballast, good deal. Didn't mean to suggest both MR breakdowns were your fault, only that you might have behaviors that contributed to it. But your IC obviously would know better than I would.
Although someone may be the common thread in two failed relationships that doesn't point to their behaviors as being the cause. It would just as likely be that they are picking people with the same issues, and it could just be bad luck.
Every good trait a person has also has an accompanying bad side. If you love someone because they are so spontaneous, you'll resent that you can't rely on them to be consistent.
If you love someone because they are so fun loving and silly, you'll resent that they don't take enough things seriously.
If you love someone who is neat and organized, you'll resent them for being too tightly wound.
etc. etc.
What we seek in a partner has much more to do with our own issues and limitations than it has to do with a partner.
This ends up creating scenarios like this: as a child, you had to work really hard for your parents' approval. As an adult, this has created a situation where you don't value approval from people who give it to you too easily. That doesn't seem real or genuine, and you don't trust it. Therefore, you're not attracted to those people. Instead, you'll seek out partners that make you work really hard for their approval.
That type of relationship is going to come with a certain level of dysfunction, and unfortunately if it fails, you're highly likely to seek another person who also makes you work really hard for their approval.
Even though the new person and the details are going to be different, how that "hard to please" dynamic plays out between you will likely create very similar relationship challenges longer term, so you can find yourself in the same situation again.
The other thing that I've read about is that people tend to pair with people who have the same level of self-actualization that they do. i.e. its unlikely that a highly confident person would be paired with a highly insecure person. Although your issues may be different, your overall level of self-actualization is probably reasonably consistent.
So what do you do about it? The first and obvious answer is to do the work on yourself so that you don't need to work so hard for approval in order to feel good about yourself. If you're able to get emotionally healthier, chances are you'll also match up with a partner who is emotionally healthier.
Secondly, understand what type of dysfunction you are seeking in a partner and why. Personality traits are on a spectrum. People can be totally spontaneous 100% of the time, or they can be spontaneous maybe 40% of the time.
If you're highly attracted to spontaneity, maybe you can figure out that you should pass on that 100% person and seek the 40%, hopefully you'll still get enough of what you need, but the "dark side" will be much less of an issue in your relationship.
Its a good journey to walk to figure this stuff out because ultimately it will make you much happier.
Acc
ballast, good deal. Didn't mean to suggest both MR breakdowns were your fault, only that you might have behaviors that contributed to it. But your IC obviously would know better than I would.
Although someone may be the common thread in two failed relationships that doesn't point to their behaviors as being the cause. It would just as likely be that they are picking people with the same issues, and it could just be bad luck.
Every good trait a person has also has an accompanying bad side. If you love someone because they are so spontaneous, you'll resent that you can't rely on them to be consistent.
If you love someone because they are so fun loving and silly, you'll resent that they don't take enough things seriously.
If you love someone who is neat and organized, you'll resent them for being too tightly wound.
etc. etc.
What we seek in a partner has much more to do with our own issues and limitations than it has to do with a partner.
This ends up creating scenarios like this: as a child, you had to work really hard for your parents' approval. As an adult, this has created a situation where you don't value approval from people who give it to you too easily. That doesn't seem real or genuine, and you don't trust it. Therefore, you're not attracted to those people. Instead, you'll seek out partners that make you work really hard for their approval.
That type of relationship is going to come with a certain level of dysfunction, and unfortunately if it fails, you're highly likely to seek another person who also makes you work really hard for their approval.
Even though the new person and the details are going to be different, how that "hard to please" dynamic plays out between you will likely create very similar relationship challenges longer term, so you can find yourself in the same situation again.
The other thing that I've read about is that people tend to pair with people who have the same level of self-actualization that they do. i.e. its unlikely that a highly confident person would be paired with a highly insecure person. Although your issues may be different, your overall level of self-actualization is probably reasonably consistent.
So what do you do about it? The first and obvious answer is to do the work on yourself so that you don't need to work so hard for approval in order to feel good about yourself. If you're able to get emotionally healthier, chances are you'll also match up with a partner who is emotionally healthier.
Secondly, understand what type of dysfunction you are seeking in a partner and why. Personality traits are on a spectrum. People can be totally spontaneous 100% of the time, or they can be spontaneous maybe 40% of the time.
If you're highly attracted to spontaneity, maybe you can figure out that you should pass on that 100% person and seek the 40%, hopefully you'll still get enough of what you need, but the "dark side" will be much less of an issue in your relationship.
Its a good journey to walk to figure this stuff out because ultimately it will make you much happier.
Acc
Outstanding post. And the bad side seems worse when the MR isn't good. Take the silly, fun loving. That is awesome when the relationship is good. As soon as you hit a rough patch that bad side, never serious, is like nails on a chalkboard.
Just a quick update...
Last night I sat in total silence in our house and found myself content...a complete lack of emotion that she was gone, don't know how or even why I was like that.
This morning I wake up and I miss her. No psycho-babble, analysis...just flat miss her. Didn't act on it in anyway, besides feeling it.
Mother's Day is Sunday. Planning to just text to wish her a Happy Mother's Day. I won't insert any deeper feelings into it, but I will not NOT recognize her on that day either.
Balance, patience, self-control, strength...focusing on those within myself and taking it day by day.
Balance, patience, self-control, strength...focusing on those within myself and taking it day by day.
This.
Good for you ballast, occasionally missing W is totally normal -- embrace it, feel all of it, you'll work through it.
Acc
Today she called me to ask if I wanted something from the store she would bring it by when she picked up our D. I said yes, told her what I wanted, thanked her.
When she got here she said that's the last time I'll do that again you didn't even tell me what you want. Um??? She rounded up D and her stuff and didn't want to talk. I said you don't want to talk to me, we're husband and wife and she said not for much longer. I thanked her as she headed out with D. Finally she said "it's been a long day". Interesting how she was so cold on the "not much longer" comment, but then opened up to me to say how her day was.
SO much anger! Ok so she was late arriving, I imagine traffic was bad, etc, but that's stuff we all have to deal with. I have been living with constant anger from her even before we split and I deserve better than that.
I know don't listen to anything she says and her anger should not at least have been directed at me, but who knows. Oh and she said we don't have a relationship as I've said before. We don't have a relationship because she moved out and doesn't want to work on it. If I can't talk to her about R or my son and I shouldn't be calling her to say "how was your day" then what the H can I do to improve that feeling in her head. Probably even too late now anyway.
Do I just treat this as an isolated event, learn from it and do better next time?
All help appreciated!
Oh and to me this is ALL about her suffering from depression. I feel she's more and more MLC'ing than anything else.
last night was just weird. She does something nice, I accept and thank, she gets to D and is angry, hits me with it, I fire off some random "do you want to talk", she goes cold, walks and then opens up to tell me it's been a long day.
I didn't boundary/check her, but I didn't doormat either. Honestly the whole "talk" comment I said I have no idea where that came from. In a way I found myself feeling like I was subconsciously teasing her, but no idea why and it wasn't intentional. Had she wanted to talk, I'd have no clue where that would have gone.
I know there will be good days, bad days so just trying to put that encounter behind me, shake it off and learn what I can from it. Instead of a 180 it felt like I did a 90 if that makes any sense. As I've never done that before I'd imagine it confused her, as it did me as well. Need to give myself some grace that I'm only human and this is a learning process. Try to do better next time.
This weekend I'm heading out away while she takes D to her sister's. Think it will be good to just getaway and let us "breathe" if that makes sense. Try to see some friends and family I haven't seen in a long while. IC today as well, looking forward to the talk and doing more positive work on me. Has been a roller coaster week, working hard to maintain balance.
So she asked if you wanted something from the store, then got mad about it when you accepted? Sounds like she has a case of Nice Girl Syndrome. She was being nice and expected you to say "no, thanks for asking". When you took her up on it she got mad because she really didn't want to do it.
When it comes to WAWs and WWs, a lot of their words and actions do not make sense, are contradictory, or just flat-out are crazy. You can't make sense of it and you will drive yourself nuts trying to figure it out.
The best thing to do is to remain detached. Cool. Calm. Non-reactive. If she lashes out, validate. But try not to react. Just calmly respond.
Responding vs. reacting. That is my new mantra. Use the "take a second" rule. When you feel the urge to react, take a second and think about what you are about to say. And then go back to your validating responses."I'm sorry you are upset, but thank you for picking up the item for me."
Steve...no, main thing I think is it took way longer for her to get done what she had planned..traffic, whatever and so from stress of the day she just arrived MAD.
Like she offered, I accepted/thanks and then she just was stressing. Calm is the keyword as you say.
I did after the fact validate and thank you. Definitely need to develop "the pause". She went down the rabbit hole and I followed her this go around.
So this weekend was fun for me and very little as far as contact with W. She did send me two pics of our D and then some information about a restaurant we like. I did today chat her to say happy Mother's Day, her reply was a simple thanks.
I having a hard time with the limbo I'm in. I mean moving along well enough with life, but basically not hearing from her nor feeling like I can communicate to her is pushing my patience to the limit. She has said "we have no relationship" and I can't argue with that, BUT she left and the last time I asked her to work/try with me on us which was a month ago now, she didn't want to. So I guess I'm at where I'm at with this sitch unless/until she has further interest in contacting me huh? I mean I know I can't pursue nor R talk, but I can't also be clingy "hey how was your day" type stuff either. Which basically leaves me where I am now. If I'm getting this wrong, please any exp'd folks let me know. I would like to "feel" like I'm doing more to speak with her/connect with her, but I don't see how that's possible per the DB rules.
Always appreciate comments!
ballast, I used to have a really bad outlook on limbo. I used to say that limbo was worse than D. Then I had a very wise poster here point out to me that limbo is the gift of time. Since I started seeing it that way it has transformed my outlook on limbo.
steve...yep I've seen and read that phrase many times during my time here. tough that we're now down I feel to just chatting about who gets my D and when. the transformation from M to strangers is painfully jarring on many levels, but what else can be done? all I can do is free her and move forward, but that is terribly difficult to do!
I'm unraveling a bit on this post so please forgive me, but I wonder if W is having an A. I only say this as I don't know one way or the other AND I have not once tried to find out. The not knowing gnaws at me constantly though. If she was then I feel like I could much easier move on and drop the rope. If I NEVER know then how can I ever know if I could ever trust her again?
Like I said no idea if she is/isn't AND I won't snoop nor ask, but then the uncertainty. Any comments/thoughts on this would be appreciated. 2x4's as well!
ballast, my only advice to you is that right now it doesn't matter. If and when she ever wants to come back, then you need to address part 2 above. Because trust is huge! No question about it. But she has to want to come back first before it matters.
So keep DBing. If she decides to come back make MC a prerequisite.
I know marriage experts disagree on the issue of full disclosure. Personally, I am a proponent of it. In your case for example, how can you ever trust her again if she isn't forthcoming with any and all indiscretions she may be guilty of. Plus those things have a way of coming back sooner or later, so you will eventually find out anyway. So if she comes back, find a MC that embraces full disclosure, and then move forward accordingly.
I having a hard time with the limbo I'm in. I mean moving along well enough with life, but basically not hearing from her nor feeling like I can communicate to her is pushing my patience to the limit.
Yeah it's really hard at first, but this is your "new normal" as the counselors like to call it. Your old M is dead and gone. There's no "going back to normal", so you are in the process of figuring out your new normal. It'll take a few months. Your W doesn't want to be in your life anymore, and she doesn't want you in hers. Can that change? It certainly can, but it's going to be many months or even a year or more before it does. In the meantime you need to establish a new life without W. You've got to find distractions and things for you to do to take your mind off your sitch. At first it won't work, your thoughts will be consumed with her. But little by little you will shift to being focused on other things.
She has said "we have no relationship" and I can't argue with that, BUT she left and the last time I asked her to work/try with me on us which was a month ago now, she didn't want to.
Don't ask that anymore. If she ever changes her mind she will let you know.
So I guess I'm at where I'm at with this sitch unless/until she has further interest in contacting me huh? I mean I know I can't pursue nor R talk, but I can't also be clingy "hey how was your day" type stuff either. Which basically leaves me where I am now.
That's correct. Don't be cold and indifferent, but don't pursue her. Read Sandi's rules all the time, that is your template on how to act around her.
I would like to "feel" like I'm doing more to speak with her/connect with her, but I don't see how that's possible per the DB rules.
I know that right now you think pursuit is your best option. But it's not, it's your WORST option. It will drive her farther away. Pulling back and giving her time and space is your best option. She doesn't like you right now. She probably resents you and you may even repulse her. I know that's tough to hear, but you need to understand where she is coming from so you can understand why you should leave her alone. Back before I was married there were two young ladies I dated at different times and broke up with. One begged and pleaded and called constantly. She looked absolutely pathetic and completely unattractive to me because of it, I couldn't stand it. The other just cut all contact and went silent. That made me wonder what she was up to, why she wasn't pursuing me. She suddenly seemed mysterious and interesting. You see the dynamic at work here?
Ballast,
You're pursuing and you need to stop!
I said you don't want to talk to me, we're husband and wife and she said not for much longer.
Nuclear no-no. (1) Laying on a heaping helping of guilt, (2) acting entitled to a relationship with her when she wants to get away, (3) denying her desire to separate by stating that "we're husband and wife."
Hopefully you see that you should never make statements like this. You shoveled a heaping load of coal on the old resentment fire and that's why you got the reaction you did.
I fire off some random "do you want to talk"
100% pursuit. Talking about feelings is a request for intimacy. You don't want to talk to her about her feelings, or your feelings. Now repeat that 1000 times until you believe it!
If she was then I feel like I could much easier move on and drop the rope.
Nope, if you find out she's having an affair you'll obsess over every detail. What you don't discover, you'll invent and then obsess over that. For any scrap of evidence that you find, your brain will fill in the worst possible interpretation of events. You'll spend hours wondering "what does he have that I don't have". You'll get angry and indignant. The one thing you WON'T do is find it much easier to move on.
If I NEVER know then how can I ever know if I could ever trust her again?
How can you trust her again anyway? She yanked the rug out from under you for no good reason. That's why you feel you can't trust her. If she comes back tomorrow you'll feel like you're tipping back in a chair about to fall over all the time. If she had an affair its not going to help but it really won't change the reconciliation landscape that much either.
Ballast, you've got to turn that lighthouse spotlight beam off of her and focus on you and the life you want to lead. The more you obsess about her and wonder what she's thinking, what she's doing, how she's feeling and why, the harder you're going to make things on you. Get out an exercise, play an instrument, join a club, as DB says "Get a LIFE!"
Acc
Steve,stander,Acc...thank you all for your comments.
Steve I understand as you say that it doesn't matter now only IF she chooses to want to try.
Stander I appreciate your words of wisdom. I'm doing the best I can with something that is new to me.
Acc friend as I say I have NO IDEA where those words even came from! I felt I had made a HUGE mistake after that encounter. Honestly I do not know how nor why I said what I did. I know it was a horrible mistake although two of my closet girl friends were like "eh, you confused her...that was not at all your normal". I appreciate the 2x4 to the face. What bothers me is that I can't explain to myself my actions. I know it was pursuit, it was stupid, 100% dumb. Since last Thursday I've just stayed quiet and shut my mouth. Got away to see family. I feel like I'm doing a good job on me, but really beating myself up over feeling like I screwed that up royally. And you are 10000% accurate on it being pursuit. Really do value your counsel ACC.
Everyone makes mistakes in this process. If it were easy, there would be no need for these fora. Don't beat yourself up about the mistakes. Just admit them, learn from them, and keep DBing. It sounds like you know what to do, you just need to follow through.
Hang in there!
thank you Davide...every interaction just seems rightly or wrongly like life and death...when it's about something so important to you AND you feel like you've already screwed up enough, the last thing you want is feeling like you screwed up even more!
I have learned a huge lesson through it. Hanging in there as you say.
I do appreciate your pat on the back and encouragement!
ballast, you've got this. mistakes will happen. key is resolving to do better!
Not even 3 months separated somebody give me one good reason I should not file for D and get out of this limbo hell!!
She seems SO happy free of me...
Rant over...
She seems SO happy free of me...
If she weren't happy, you're the last person she'd show. She's giving you a big dose of "act as if" just as you should be doing with her.
See how her happiness makes you feel? You want *her* to feel that way about *your* happiness.
That's what GAL and "Act as If" are all about. Make sense?
If she sees that YOU are the one living the happy kickass life without her, then SHE is going to feel like you do now, like she's missing out, and will wonder why she's no longer necessary for your happiness.
In terms of why you shouldn't file? There's no reason. That's a personal decision. When you're done, you're done, and you'll know when its time.
Acc
Acc...your counsel knocks it out the park for me every time!
YES! What you say makes COMPLETE sense. And yep I do realize if she wasn't like that, I'd be the last to know, although there have been many times where she's been far less than happy around me.
Main point of that post was to just blow out an emotion I was having safely at that time rather than in her presence. Wonderful service of this forum AND to have great folks like yourself to 2x4 us and keep us on track is a HUGE bonus! It was a rant safely detonated herein.
The happy front triggered me is all so I threw up the file comment. Way too early to stop, but getting better at channeling my emotions in a post instead of to her.
always much appreciated!
thank you Davide...every interaction just seems rightly or wrongly like life and death...
We all felt that way early on, like if we just said that one "right" thing it would put everything back to normal, or afraid if we said that one "wrong" thing that it would seal the fate of our doomed marriages. But it took a long, long time to get here and it will take equally long to reverse it. There will be big steps forward and now and then a step back. That's normal. Like Davide said, when you backslide just pick yourself up, brush yourself off, learn from it and keep moving forward.
Hi all...so HUGE bomb drop today...although this time it was me.
Let me explain...W took her ring off soon after she left me. I said nothing. This past week I decided at the advice of some girlfriends to do the same. OMG! Monday I was advised out of the blue to not go after her BFF as she is married, her BFF and not available! I was like "WTF", mouth dropped wide open! Today out of the blue I got an email from W saying "please keep any girls you plan to date/see away from our D!" Um, when we split we agreed that we would NOT see nor date anyone else. The whole point of the separation was to allow us to work on the relationship and I was completely sticking to that. So I replied and said are we still in agreement on NOT seeing or dating anyone else? Simple yes/no question. She deferred around it. I said I want to speak with you today, she refused. We went around a bit and then I told her I'm done. She said she was too. She could not even meet me to talk and she has done exactly nothing in 3 months.
So basically I dumped her. There is MUCH to the story. She said she will call to get papers started and that's fine. We have to wait a year to file so we have 9 months to go. Bottom line is that I was d88ned sure not going to sit around and let her date/see other guys and think good ol' H will always be there. I'm sorry there's been so much dysfunction to her that I've not shared. Lots of depression, and my IC had told me long ago that she had taken all of her anger/resentment from likely even before we met and projected it on to me. As much as it pains me to say because I did completely the love the woman I married, she is NOT there anymore. She is completely and utterly gone. Nothing but spite, anger and hate comes from her now.
So now I guess she'll be divorcing me. I really was getting to grips with what was being said here, but once my ring came off it's like she lost her mind. If anyone would like to comment/question/wonder what the H I was thinking, I would love some comments. A man can only take so much dysfunction. I'm not proud/happy/maybe a bit relieved, but to feel like I lost the mother of my child whom I deeply love I'm terribly sad.
Thank you all so much...I guess I failed this DB thing
You didn't fail at DBing. Don't beat yourself up at all. You have the right to feel your emotions.
Yes, this feels like a failure. I get it. But, you have to pick up the pieces now that things have shattered.
I would suggest that you go NC/dark on her outside of any business stuff (house, finances etc) and your D. I don't advise this because it will bring her back, but this is strictly for you and your healing. You need the time and space away from her to feel your emotions, process them, and pick up your life.
I haven't read your whole sitch, but not sure if you're doing any GAL. pick that up and start living your life. I know it won't be easy and you'll have to push yourself, but you absolutely have to.
As Accuray says - you can't go around the pain, you have to go through it. I can't agree with that more. For anything to turn around, you have to go in the opposite direction of her.
Take a deep breath. This is a long journey. Trust me, there is light at the end of this tunnel. I can guarantee you that if you put in the work and focus on yourself, you will be a better stronger person at the end of it. You will save yourself and if you the MR is saved in the process, that's a bonus - but here's the catch: you can't save the MR if you don't save yourself.
So focus on that. You and your D are your top priorities now. But, you can't be the parent you want for your D if you aren't stable, happy, and calm.
I am a year out from BD and I didn't think I'd be here emotionally and mentally. But I am and if nothing, I am a living testament, amongst many here, that you'll be okay. Hell, more than okay. you'll be spectacular.
Ballast,
You only fail this DB thing when you stop working on yourself. The relationship is secondary. Keep working on yourself.
It sounds like she completely ignored one of your boundaries and you called her out on it. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. That is the sign of having some self-respect.
The only caution I would throw up there is that it seems like a whole lot of decisions are being made in the heat of the moment. It scares the beejezus out of me to make decisions like that. You are married for the next 9 months in any case.
I hope this isnt the last we hear from you.
Eh, this too shall pass. I disagree with removing your ring no matter what she does. But that is me. I think you need to take some time and think things through. Plus she was likely reacting emotionally as well. Early on in my sitch my wife made similar pronouncements. Things can escalate quickly, and emotions can run high.
Anyway, sleep on it. Things might get better in the morning.
I appreciate the positive thoughts and comments. Got a few hours sleep, saw these and wanted to lay out all I can say of my sitch. Every time I post, once I read what I've updated I feel like I've not conveyed properly what I was trying to say. I think fewer words may help.
As I said last night I asked a simple question. Are we still in agreement on not seeing/dating anyone while separated. For me no matter my ring, it was a simple yes. I am fully committed to my vows. From her I did not get that. Instead I got, I'm not dating anyone, having sex with anyone, I'm not committing adultery. All of that is fine but a straight yes was all she had to say. She was being selective. Her answer didn't preclude EAs and why she couldnt just give a simple answer smells shady. If she needs time to find herself, I can 100% support that, but trust is huge to me and I will NOT be a backup, last resort, plan whatever while she comparison shops me with other men. I do know I've been way too nice in the past, avoided conflict as I thought that was a good thing and let her walk all over me. I know I'm a great guy, if she needs to check out other men she can do so without me in her life. I've read much of sandi's post. Especially where she implores H's to take their balls back, let your W feel she has lost you. To allow myself to be like "sure comparison shop me with other men" would have been completely giving up my value as a man. Something I simply can not allow no matter what happens.
As I've already said W was previously given meds for depression. birthdays are terrible for her. Our D and one of her aunts made her a cake. W refused it and to allow D to sing her happy bday/blow out the candles. For what I think is a year now, she has taken weight loss pills from her dr. She may be chem addicted, but at least emotionally addicted to them. she is at max dosage but is under a size 4. the effect of these from what I've read can cause rage and many other changes in brain chemistry. also every 6 weeks or so, she has to take a trip of say 4-6 days. my IC says that is because she can't find contentment in daily life. day to day she can only take so much before she has to get away. when she does she leaves D with me and goes some place she can party. she's her normal self when gone but as the trip goes her anxiety of coming home starts. we all agree ending vacations is no fun, but it really gets to her more deeply. once a day or so back to work, she not happy again.
durng this ordeal I don't think I've been dealing with an otherwise sober minded spouse. I went to IC to work on me as I do recognize ways that I was not my best for her. and i have learned SO much from all of you folks on MR, dynamics, etc. If I didn't love her as much as I do I would not be here reading and learning as much as I have been. I didn't know ANY of this stuff nor how so absolutely essential much of it is. I've also learned from my IC that I'm a high self esteem person while she very much a low self esteem. whereas I seek praise and give praise, W actually gives out low blows and as my IC puts it I need to not praise but rather mirror back to her and call her out when she does such and instead she needs to give me praise to make me happy. It makes total sense to me BUT I never learned any of this until W was gone.
last I mean she has run a story to her family that we're talking every day, working on us...she has tried to create this completely false narrative of us meanwhile her anger for me is immense and has completely not even said word one towards R...heck can't even meet in person or look me in the eye...zip, zero, nada. even in the many many other sitchs that I have read at least their WW/WAWs seem to have all had at least some comms with their LBH on the relationship and/or R. W completely folded up from day 1. as of now if she D's me we will have done/tried nothing to save it. i can know that i was always open at any time place to do/try anything to save us. the guilt/regret she will feel if we D as is to me would be insane. not to say that she won't, her life/choice but i could not make such an enormous decision without saying I exhausted every option to save it.
time will tell i guess.
one last thing...I've read and heard some folks say if there are emotions then there are still feelings, if no emotions then no feelings. does anyone agree with that? I mean I'm a quick to believe worst case scenario. as hard, cold, angry as she is could she actually still have feelings. seems impossible and even if she does I know I need to move on, maybe she'll find them someday...guess I'm just trying to understand how that could still be so.
The emotions and feelings being attached make full sense.What I think you should do now is focus on you. Take all you positive energy- be the best you can be for you and you D. Stay well.
ballast you're acting as if this encounter is the first time you have faced the possibly of an OM. I've told you and others here before that Ws don't need to move out to figure things out or to find themselves. They can do that in the marital home. Ws move out and get their own place so that they can have sex with other men. It's a hard reality but one that LBHs have to face.
Ws lie about OM for potentially several reasons. Because they want to spare their H's feelings. Or because they are afraid H will tell others and ruin their good girl image. Or because of the guilt and it being too yucky to face.
The biggest mistake you made and continue to make is believing anything she says. Look above again. WWs lie about their affairs. Heck if they are going to cheat on their Hs what is lying compared to that?!
Likely you believed her about OM for potentially several reasons. Because your wanted to spare your feelings. Or you wanted to believe she's still a good girl. Or because it is too yucky to face. Hmmm, sounds familiar doesn't it.
So is infidelity too much for you? Sounds like it might be. Give it some thought and if that is something you can't tolerate then go file for D.
But stop believing her lies and lying to yourself about the reality of all this.
steve...there's a big caveat...she is not in her own place..she is staying in her mom's other house and is triangulated on 3 sides by other family. and it's not the first time I'm facing that, I just wanted to confirm she and I were still on the same page. she came to me first in this asking what I was up to and I could easy say, yep married man...nobody else at all...would have handed my phone to her if she'd liked. that she couldn't/wouldn't reply with a simple yes is the only reason I wonder.
I do agree with you on me taking what she says as truth. I do believe she will start papers. I guess we'll see. infidelity would be too much for me. as I say though if she simply needs time and we have trust, then by all means take all she needs.
knowing her to me she sounds geniune about being done and filing...IF she's lying and she's NOT done...that's beyond crazy to me
regardless of where she is you've said she goes off on 4 to 6 day trips every 6 weeks. You really think she's acting as a married woman on this trips.
ballast I respect you drawing a line in the sand about other men. But just remember she's likely crossed it already. Which is why your insistence that she agree to no seeing or dating others is forcing her to take the 'I'm done' stance.
Also that was pressure and trying to control. anyway i still say you're too emotional over this encounter and need some time to reflect. Never underestimate a WW's capacity for not following through. She likely will not file. That's the way 95% of these cases go.
Sorry for the rollercoaster ride you've been on! Remember that nothing has the finality or weight you think it does right now. Taking off your ring is a personal decision, there's no right or wrong, only what's right for you. You have to be authentic and honor your feelings.
So now I guess she'll be divorcing me.
Ask yourself why you're choosing that language. You could say "so now I guess we'll be getting divorced" or "so now I guess I will be divorcing her". By saying that she will divorce you, you're making yourself the passive victim here. Based on what you shared of the exchange, you were the one who said you were done (and I'm not saying that was wrong). Your choice of language here points to your mental model of the situation -- that she is doing this to you. That you do not have control over how things go.
Is that true?
How can you restore your feeling of control?
Out of all the questions that you could be focusing on right now, I would submit to you that this one is the most important.
A man can only take so much dysfunction. I'm not proud/happy/maybe a bit relieved, but to feel like I lost the mother of my child whom I deeply love I'm terribly sad.
That's a wonderful statement of the conflict you're feeling. On the one hand, you're tired of being beaten up and under-appreciated. There's only so much anyone can take. On the other hand, you're feeling terrible sadness over loss of the relationship.
From what you've shared about W I want you to think about something: there's who people are, and there's who we want them to be.
If you fall in love with the second one, you're in trouble.
Thank you all so much...I guess I failed this DB thing
Only if you give up on yourself.
You've had a shock to the system with that latest exchange. It shook up the status quo. Even though you weren't happy with the status quo, the pain of change feels worse right now.
You don't have to *do* anything right now. In fact, I would suggest you don't. Just take a break and feel. Don't try to engage W. Don't apologize, don't put your ring back on. Just feel, just process, just wait.
There is no urgency here that you're not creating. Everything will resolve itself in time the way that it should. Let go of the handlebars and have faith. You'll be fine.
Acc
Today out of the blue I got an email from W saying "please keep any girls you plan to date/see away from our D!" Um, when we split we agreed that we would NOT see nor date anyone else. The whole point of the separation was to allow us to work on the relationship and I was completely sticking to that. So I replied and said are we still in agreement on NOT seeing or dating anyone else?
B,
You should have calmly replied you know I would never bring a new girl around our daughter.
She was nervous and reached out to you to see if you were still available to be plan B and based on your response she received her confirmation that you are.
You really think she's acting as a married woman on this trips.
Never underestimate a WW's capacity for not following through. She likely will not file. That's the way 95% of these cases go.
So I expect her to act like a separated woman. Talking, having fun all good...breaking trust in a marriage, no good. I will be AMAZED if she does not file. As she seems hell bent on D, why would she not?
So now I guess she'll be divorcing me.
I used this language as I do not as yet want to divorce. At least not until we really given our separation and R a real chance. I could get control back by filing myself.
Acc your comment on who they are vs who we want them to be. When I married her I thought I knew who she was. Now she is who I don't know. And now I want her to be who she was. Not like I had ANY idea she would does this after our D arrived.
LH19 you are correct. I confirmed I was still a plan b when I said that, BUT when I asked her to confirm she was in agreement with me and she avoided, then I removed myself as plan b.
As Acc said I did NOT contact her at all when this all occurred. I was actually trying to take a break and be free. This has been a H*ll of a week. First accused of being after her friend to bringing others around my D. Its a pain in the neck to detach and go on GAL'ing when she constantly slings this stuff at me. And if she IS as done as she says she is WHY in the world is she still doing this type stuff?
accuray
Only if you give up on yourself.
You don't have to *do* anything right now. In fact, I would suggest you don't. Just take a break and feel. Don't try to engage W. Don't apologize, don't put your ring back on. Just feel, just process, just wait.
There is no urgency here that you're not creating. Everything will resolve itself in time the way that it should. Let go of the handlebars and have faith. You'll be fine.
Acc
I will NOT give up on myself. I will be exactly as you say while enjoying my D at the beach this weekend. One question with all that has taken place, she is DONE with her interest in me right OR am I still on the roller coaster? Steve's comments make it sound like the ride is just beginning.
Who knows? Remember not to believe anything they say. But you can't focus on her. That will drive you crazy. Focus on D and GALing.
The ride is just beginning. She won't be done with you for a long time, nor will you be done with her. Since you have a daughter together you will be intermeshed for 18+ years.
In my sitch W just wanted me to let her off the hook guilt-free. She just wanted to walk away and pursue her life without having to worry about if I would be okay or not.
I remember eventually realizing that I had no feelings for her anymore. If she was nice to me, I didn't care. If she was mean to me I didn't care. She became "emotionally irrelevant". That doesn't mean that I was rude, mean, or dismissive of her, it just means that if she had sex with another man on my front lawn I'd shrug, think "that's an odd thing for her to do" and go about my business.
At that point, I was *fully detached* or had "dropped the rope" as they say. I don't think you can actively will yourself to get there, it kind of just happens on its own, and it takes lots of time, but eventually you're done. Until it does, you have to rely upon "act as if".
Ironically only after that happened did W take any interest. At one point she started crying and said that she felt like she never existed, and like I wouldn't care if she died. She had finally realized that she couldn't come back, and she didn't like it. I felt sorry that she was sad, like I would feel sorry for anyone who was sad, but it didn't impact how I felt about myself or about her at all.
Filing for D yourself won't restore your feeling of control over your life unless you truly want to be divorced.
So if you don't want to divorce and give up at this point, why did you tell her you were done? Was it frustration in the heat of the moment, or were you trying to push her to ask you not to be done? Do you remember what was driving you in the moment?
One of the things that happens in DB is that sometimes we will say something in order to provoke a specific reaction. More often than not, we don't get the reaction we wanted, and then we feel even worse. That's just something to be aware of. If you're trying to provoke W to get expressions of guilt, remorse, fear or doubt, you'll often get the opposite and feel even worse.
Feel free to keep venting here obviously, ignore advice that doesn't resonate with you, and use the advice that does. Keep doing your thing!
Acc
Acc...yep you are right and as far as co-parent I think we are very good. in my sitch W wants to walk away, everybody be ok with it while doing nothing, approve of her trips all the time all while she seems to truly care about me.
Right now I want to be dropped the rope with her. Assuming we had trust on the OM topic, I felt I was working towards that. If we do not, then I need her to know I'm done and not a plan b. I don't know the truth on that, nor even if I did, do I feel like I'm far enough along to file right now. I'm doing good with GAL, but just still want a new marriage with her while she seems completely closed down and done.
Me telling her I was done was a reaction to her not being able to simply say YES I still agree we are not seeing/dating other people until we D. I wanted to let her know in the strongest way possible that is my ultimate boundary. Thing is if she did have an OM, but came through whatever she needed to go through and then came back...I can't honestly say what I would do.
Forgive me up front, to say I feel not very good at this whole thing is an understatement. I'm a moral man, loves his wife to death, wants her to have all the time she needs to sort out what she wants so long as she keeps our trust. All of the infidelity, lies, etc...I'm not good at knowing how to handle any of it so I feel like I'm flailing around.
The OM question is irrelevant. You need to move on and act like you're done. It's not an agreement that you can enforce. What are you going to do? keep checking on her? That's absurd and it takes you back a hundred steps in your own healing.
Don't lead with words, but action. Best to go with the realization that if she doesn't have OM now, she can have one next week. You cannot let her actions dictate your behavior.
And just like that I have a random text saying she packed my D two pair of sandals for the beach...which I already knew...is this a contact check?
Thanks Maika for the 2x4 move on and act as I m done. That short and sweet is what I m bumbling around at trying to do.
Monday I was advised out of the blue to not go after her BFF as she is married, her BFF and not available! I was like "WTF", mouth dropped wide open! Today out of the blue I got an email from W saying "please keep any girls you plan to date/see away from our D!" Um, when we split we agreed that we would NOT see nor date anyone else. The whole point of the separation was to allow us to work on the relationship and I was completely sticking to that. So I replied and said are we still in agreement on NOT seeing or dating anyone else? Simple yes/no question. She deferred around it. I said I want to speak with you today, she refused. We went around a bit and then I told her I'm done. She said she was too. She could not even meet me to talk and she has done exactly nothing in 3 months.
Ballast, you're letting this go back and forth too much. Your response should simply be "I'm not dating anyone for now." Period. End of story. If she wants to continue ranting and raving then just ignore her.
You can't control whether she dates or not, you can only control yourself. So don't worry about a "deal" with her and whether she is meeting the terms or not. She's a WAS, all bets are now off.
So now I guess she'll be divorcing me. I really was getting to grips with what was being said here, but once my ring came off it's like she lost her mind.
No, she is just realizing that you may not be hanging on as Plan B and it freaked her out. It's like my wife said about my ex-girlfriend (who was also her best friend at the time) when we started dating- "she doesn't want you, but she doesn't want anyone else to have you either." That is where your wife is. She doesn't want you, but she wants you to pine away for her and wait in the wings. When you start DB'ing it shakes up the WAS and they react in very strong ways.
So can somebody tell me besides working on me a game plan to handle what seems like daily crazy from her
Meditation, eatiing healthy, excersise & GAL
Stander yes I am way too wordy I know that I do not pause enough and think before replying
Just need to keep learning
Also if she does not want me but does not want anyone else to have me AND I still want to DB what do I do
Just GAL and detach
ballast no. All of our WWs are/ were crazy. A WW is the epitome of bipolar.
I had to attend a family funeral this afternoon. But I thought a lot about your sitch. So what would have happened if she had said yes to your question. As AS said you can't enforce it. Likely she is in an eA or PA already.
Essentially what you were saying to her was "tell me what I want to hear so I feel better". Your discussion with her meant nothing yet you are making it mean everything.
As Accuray said, take some time on this one. Let your emotions run the gamut and then decide how to move forward.
Also if she does not want me but does not want anyone else to have me AND I still want to DB what do I do
When you say you want to DB, what does that look like? Can you describe it to me? (I used to absolutely hate these type of questions, when asked of me.
)
Maybe I should ask it this way.....what does her not wanting you and yet not wanting to be replaced, have to do with your decisions?
Steve of course you are right on saying it can't be enforced. I will say as I noticed I hadn't said it before, she did say she was not dating anyone nor having sex with anyone. again not enforceable and who knows if truthful, but was said.
Sandi that was a poor and desperately stupid comment of mine. the last week of her emails that were WAY not normal, I was unprepared for and left me floundering.
What I should have said is that I do want to save our marriage, I feel as though I screwed up, I AM GALing and detaching and thought I was doing the detaching pretty well, but it was like every day she hit me with these loaded bombs that I did not know how to handle. she has said the love is gone replaced by anger/resentment. my IC has said she can be helped with that but of course she would need to seek it.
Sandi I would say what she wants has nothing to do with my decisions. my decisions are my own and I'm responsible for them alone. what I am guilty of is/was trying to show her that she could lose me. by my keeping my ring on I felt as if I was projecting this continued since of hope that may have repulsed her OR made her think like I was accepting of her running around while I waited idly by. As she will not even see me, nor look at me when she comes to get our D, I was hoping to change the dynamic/balance. I avoided conflict with her during our M, always tried to please her such that I feel I lost her respect, attracting and ultimately her. I know I'm a good man, all of my girl friends know I am, so I decided to match her in removing my ring. clearly it got her attention however I was not prepared to properly address the consequences.
as I've said before I love her, I hope that I might have the chance to R with her someday down the line. at this early stage I have no idea how much pain I can stand while I'm trying to do my best with the most counter intuitive process I've ever heard of.
lastly let me say thank you, I have read a ton of your writing and so much of it makes sense to me. it's in the application of that knowledge to my sitch where I clearly struggle.
IMHO, the first thing you need to do is stop trying to persuade her. You want to save the M. That's fine, but currently, your W doesn't share the same feelings. Don't you just hate when you don't have the same point of view or emotions that another person has....and that person is always doing something to try to persuade you to come across to his way of thinking/feeling?
Some LBH's feel as if they have to give regular reminders to the WW that they don't want a D, and they thought the S was to work on the MR, etc. (BTW, she lied about that part, of separating to work on the M issues). This only is not necessary, but it is a "turn off" for the WW's attraction.
Even if you don't just come out and tell her that you want to save the M......everything about you is sending that message loud and clear. And as long as she knows you are staying warm, sitting on a back burner........she will poke along in her wayward state, b/c she knows you are holding out to save the save M if & when she ever decides to come back.
When I was in an A, I remember one time my H passed by the place I had a picture framed of our grandchildren. He said something about how precious they were. I immediately resented it, b/c I could read his body language, tone of voice, facial expression, etc. I saw it as him trying to apply emotional pressure on me. I
know him.....and he is a nice-guy, passive-aggressive type. Your W knows you better than anyone, and she reads you like an opened book.
Don't think you are not DBing if you aren't giving out silent messages of how desperate you feel, or that you have to reassure her you are still available, or disclose your love for her. Those things are not DBing, IMHO.
You must stop responding as if she's still your W. Stop thinking and acting as if she is still your W. She emotionally divorced a long time ago. So, you must cut your emotional strings you have tied to her, and let her go. She will know, when you really let go. No need to announce it, like I've seen some LBH's do.
She will be able to detect it.
You are right that she doesn't want you. She doesn't want to be your W. The WW wants the benefits that come with the M, but she doesn't want the obligations and responsibilities that go along with a MR. WW's are extremely selfish and jealous. If she thought her "position" was threatened by another lady.......she would be temp checking you all the time to secure her place in your life. Those type of behaviors can cause a LBH to be confused, if he is not wise about the mindset of WW's.
Being a man with NGS causes a lot of internal struggles for the LBH. He doubts what his type of responses to have with his WW. She fears making her angry. Any form of tough love, scares him to death b/c it goes against what his NGS dictates. Pulling back and not being available to her, makes absolutely no sense to him. So, he is dealing with a double whammy........a WW and his NGS.
Learn all you can about the two subjects. Don't let your emotions dictate your actions. Your W does not have a logical mindset. Therefore, you cannot reason with her. She operates from her emotions (based on whatever feeling she is having in every minute of the day). You cannot trust what she says, or even what she does while she continues on this wayward path.
I know you still love and want to save the M. Nobody is telling you to stop. However, you may have to love her at a distance. We can't make people love & desire us, if they are determined to have none of it. Why should we chase and plead to have another chance with that person, when they are fighting to get away?
Before marrying your W, would you have shown the same pathetic behavior? No, b/c you had dignity and self esteem. You could see how that type of behavior from a guy was such a turnoff. Somehow, he seems to lose that insight when he gets M and then becomes the LBH. It's important that you regain that insight you had a single man. Don't compromise your integrity, no matter how much you wish to save your M. Find the man you once were......or become a better version. You can't stay stuck in this mindset you currently hold.
I wanted to let her know in the strongest way possible that is my ultimate boundary.
By placing so much emphasis on this all you are telling her is to hide what she is doing and deny to the death!
Your ultimate boundary will have no impact on her decisions and actions, only on what she chooses to reveal to you.
Sandi so until last week I thought I had been doing good on not pursuing. The day I take my ring off I'm texted by her BFF for the first time ever where she sounds like she wants me to come see her, then asks me how I'm doing, then says she is unaware of how W is handling us, tells me about W's struggles and then says we need to date and I need to fight! I say I love her, I have asked before, but she's closed to the point of not even seeing me and I get "she'll regret this". Next I get from W that her BFF is off limits, there I say my interest is in her and so I failed I feel. Two days later, I get the whole don't bring girls around our D and here again I say I'm not seeing anyone until we D. So I reacted like a good boy should and here again feel I failed. Finally I heard from her in a anger, she's not seeing/having sex. Then a sentence saying I'm not committing adultery. Here again I failed as has been pointed out by asking the stupid question in the first place. The only thing I might have done positive is to say I'm done.
I was "told" we would work on the MR. Course that never happened. If she was to file without doing anything at all to save the MR, she's way more cold and closed than I ever knew. She is stubborn and determined though which is why I don't doubt she will. How she could live with that level of guilt/regret I have no idea.
If she is WW, lying, messing around with OM, no matter if I love her I don't want her back. As I say by myself I have been able to pull way back from her and detach, but she pulled me back in this past week with the drama. Toughest part for me is how she said "you are a good guy, we were nothing more than roommates and I need/want so much more than that". Basically saying I was a terrible husband. The impact of our D changed our MR, he BF told me how she has struggled with that. More so than an OM, feeling like I failed her hurts worse. I know it takes two and I know she did nothing either, but to be grown adults and just let the MR die...as I say she is WAY stronger willed than I.
In one of your posts you provided sort of a checklist for LBH's to help the WW feel the loss. Besides the obvious of removing myself to her, this week I plan to remove all financial support and I've contacted an L. Best as I can recall I believe that will (so long as I don't get baited) cover all of the steps you advised an LBH should take.
I have no proof of anything about her being WW, she could be just a walk away. I have never done a thing to snoop/find out and don't intend to. I know from her past relationship that she snooped constantly on her ex worried that he was cheating on her and then...he finally did. Best I know she asked for S, told her whole family we would work on us and then just closed shop. Anyway I guess all I have is let her go, live for myself and look forward to finding someone new although if she is WW as folks think, pretty sure I'm gonna be closed down to women for a long while. The whole idea that she could be a WW and NOT file just seems so illogical/crazy to me. May be at the year mark I file and end this. I would hate that, but I don't see me hanging around at all if OM is in the picture.
And yep Acc you are right. Again chalk that up to newbie reading about boundaries for the first time...off trying to set boundaries
Nothing I will do has any impact on her from the way Sandi and others tell it. I was approaching her as a rationale adult, clearly as has been pointed out, I should not be doing that. I guess as this marriage looks doomed, at least I will have learned much by suffering a great deal as your quote and comments highlight one such lesson. This whole exp is like a foreign language with me being a really bad student
she said you are a good guy, we were nothing more than roommates and I need/want so much more than that . Basically saying I was a terrible husband.
She is not saying you were a terrible husband , she is saying that in her re imagining of your history she did not have the feelings for you she felt she should have had.
It is crazy talk and you can safely ignore it
Acc
LOL...seriously appreciate you Accuray!
Yes loking back on our chat from last week I see more of such talk that must have been driven by emotions.
She continues almost as if in desperation in wanting me to do something in saying that our R is only a piece of paper now. Course when I say we could address that, she says she has nothing to say nor will see me. I know the ball is clearly in her court on this, but it's extremely frustrating to hear her circle logic on it. It is HER that can break us out of this loop but she thinks it's on me.
D and I had a great weekend. Her quote I gave for sure made me take it straight to heart about being terrible and all the things I didn't do or could have done better. Of course it takes two and there was/is much she could have done as well.
I do wonder...for a WW with young children is there any thought in their mind on the impact their actions have on their child? It's one thing to not give a lick about how the LBH feels, but is that the same with their children? Praying for a quiet week of detach.
Appreciate everyone's comments and support during this very difficult time in my life.
WW are extremely selfish. After years of sacrificing their own needs they have decided it is time to focus on them. Read the other sitches on this board, many many WW just walk away from their families and kids. Read mtb's thread in particular. So do not be surprised at how calloused she can be even toward your D.
But ballast you still have a lot of work to do. Almost your entire last post is focused on HER. Until you can flip that script and start focusing on yourself. You cannot control her. No matter how hard you try. You can try direct control, passive-aggressive control, manipulative control, or another methods (guilt, etc) nothing will work.
However, you can control yourself with no expectations. You really need to focus on detaching, 180ing, GAL. Otherwise, I am afraid that your behavior is going to result in what you fear most: losing your W.
Steve...I appreciate the comments. My question about children I'm sure is driven from my logical mind trying to understand an illogical state. I need to accept that anything and everything is possible no matter how crazy it seems to me.
And yes you are right I for sure do. I had been going along last week quite well with detaching and GAL, but the ring really unleashed events that I didn't handle very well. It was definitely not my intent nor could I foresee the crazy that came from it. I would say though that much of me that might appear to be trying to control is more "what the heck is going on" based. When you have not experienced anything like this before, you naturally try to understand the logic of it. And being a newbie you make mistakes that are controlling even when you aren't trying to.
Last week was bad, definitely hoping for a detached week with my gym and spending time with family this weekend. Definitely never has been my intention to control and as you say we have all made mistakes when trying to come to terms with what's happening.
ballast, that is all true. I think the problem we make as newbies is trying detachment, 180s, and GAL only in terms of trying to get our spouse to come back to us. The problem is that they can see right through that. They can tell when we are just doing something to manipulate them.
As AS, and the other experts here point out, it isn't until we detach, GAL and 180 ONLY FOR OURSELVES that ironically the WAS suddenly takes notice and starts to get interested in what is going on. But by then many of the LBSs have already moved on and are really ready to end the MR. It is a weird dynamic.
If you DB to try to change your spouse, you will fail. If you DB because you truly want to prepare for life after your D then suddenly the WAS starts showing signs of wanting to R.
That was my point in my last response. It is like trying to fake sleeping while keeping one eye open to see if the person you are trying to fool notices. They can always tell you are faking because of your eye being open.............
B - I think they know what they are doing will impact the children but they don't care. Their selfishness is more important to them and nothing will stop them from getting what they want. They rationale the break up and the impact to children telling them selves that the kids will be alright, they will adjust, they are resilliant, many kids come from divorced families, etc.
yep I mean prior to the events of last week, I was truly detaching and GALing for me with no expectation on how or even if W noticed. when I flipped the apple cart so to speak it unleashed events that caused me to unknowingly try to control, just was not prepared for that.
a friend of mine said to me today that I should be re-evaluating what it is that I love about her in current terms. it was insightful because for sure at this time only the fact that she is the mother of my D causes me to have feelings of affection for her. in every other way the person is someone I do not know, nor would want nor is the level of person I deserve. it was a very helpful comment to hear.
joseph...yes that is my W...our D will be alright no matter what...when I see the impact of W's decision on my D though I know very much otherwise that her actions are causing a negative impact.
Yeah, my W pretty much has nothing to do with our 3 kids. She has been a stay at home mom through most of our M. Then, all of a sudden, she just became nonexistent in their lives. Sees them maybe 15 minutes one day a week. Usually in passing while she comes to the house to get something. She actually went 3 full weeks in March without seeing them or even talking to them on the phone. And she give the whole kids are resilient, this is what's best for them, someday they'll understand BS. One of the reasons she said she wanted to leave the MR was because she felt like she wasn't able to be a good mother. That she needed to leave to work on herself so she could be a good mother for our kids. In all actuality, she's just become a worse mother and doesn't seem to care...
And just got another trip request from her. I'll have my D for 5 more days while she takes off to try and escape reality. More time with D is always great.
Just replied back with sure no problem, sounds good to me.
The email was even more formal, signing off "thank you, <name>"...
She's gone...
Eh, you are reading too much into it. WWs have come back from places further than yours.
she's gonna from being informal to back to using our names...it triggered me initially but then more time with D is great and nothing I can do so just shot off my reply.
time will tell...
She continues almost as if in desperation in wanting me to do something in saying that our R is only a piece of paper now. Course when I say we could address that, she says she has nothing to say nor will see me. I know the ball is clearly in her court on this, but it's extremely frustrating to hear her circle logic on it. It is HER that can break us out of this loop but she thinks it's on me.
You're frustrated by the surface circular logic of what she's saying, but if you look at what's really going on, its perfectly logical:
she wants out of the relationship, but doesn't want to be the bad guy. Therefore, she wants to put the breakdown in the relationship and the potential "get well plan" entirely on you, and then wants to create barriers making it impossible for you to execute on any kind of get well plan.
That way she comes away from it as the victim -- you ruined the relationship and you failed to fix it. She walks away emotionally guilt free. If you look at this as her objective, then her surface circular logic and counter-intuitive arguments are actually perfectly logical.
I do wonder...for a WW with young children is there any thought in their mind on the impact their actions have on their child? It's one thing to not give a lick about how the LBH feels, but is that the same with their children?
There's a relevant quote about the fact that prisons are full of people who claim to be innocent. When humans do bad things, they typically will feel intensely guilty about it for a short period of time. Eventually the brain goes into self-preservation mode and starts inventing rationalizations so that the events in question were not that person's fault, or what they did wasn't so bad, or that everything will be okay despite what they did.
Once that "salvation narrative" starts to get created, they will hold onto it for dear life, seek out any shred of evidence that supports it, and ignore or reject anything at all that contradicts it. Its like an act of self-hypnosis.
So the WAS knows the impact on the children, but eventually self-hypnotize themselves into believing its all for the best and everyone will be okay, and its your fault anyway.
The thing is ballast, if she told you that you are responsible for fixing the relationship, and told you how to do it, and you actually did that you would fail before you started. That's not how relationships work.
If you were in high school and saw a girl you wanted to date, you wouldn't ask her how to create a relationship with her, and if she told you and you did that, you'd quickly be discarded.
Relationship and attraction are about value. People who jump through hoops for you are not valuable, and are therefore not attractive. You value people who are confident and self-sufficient, and that you feel you need to work to get. When you get attention from those people you feel good about yourself.
That's why GAL, act as if, and heading the other way work. You're establishing yourself as a person of value who is not going to jump through these hoops or tolerate this crap.
Double down your efforts to lead a life that anyone would want to be part of.
Acc
Acc...I'm doing exactly as you say...BUT...last night I caught another huge round of jealous/anger from her. because our shared data plan has been used more than normal, she stated that I was sneaking around while playing the victim. this is of course complete BS. I have shed way too many tears/said too many prayers wanting to save our marriage. I told her I do not want a divorce but will not stand in her way. She said call logs prove otherwise to which I lol'd. God can stop me from seeing my D immediately if that were true. She tried to push me, but I stayed detached, said I'd work with her to separate our finances and then that I was going to bed.
Taking my ring off really caused her to start talking crazy. I had read all these other stories on here, but said "nah, W is not like that"...that she has come out so crazy jealous just blows me away. I'm proud of myself that I didn't take any of her baits for a fight nor pursue her. Detached, act as if and went on. Anybody have any further suggestions/comments on how I handle this would be appreciated. The dynamics of our MR have really changed dramatically and suddenly.
I should not have reiterated my stance on a possible D. I see that was a sandi rule I screwed up. No more of that will come from my mouth. A mistake, dust off, move on.
Acc...I'm doing exactly as you say...BUT...last night I caught another huge round of jealous/anger from her. because our shared data plan has been used more than normal, she stated that I was sneaking around while playing the victim.
It's probably a diversion tactic. Normally when people accuse their spouse of something that simply isn't taking place, it's because they are trying to launch a preemptive strike so they don't get blamed for the same thing (which they usually ARE actively engaging in). By putting you on the defensive she's drawing attention away from herself. Her goal is to make you focus on trying to defend yourself. Of course the more you do, the more adamant she will be that you are guilty because her goal is to keep you off-balance. You end up confused and angry.... and oblivious to what SHE is doing. So how do you respond- well when she makes baseless accusations, look at her as if a 3rd eye suddenly sprouted in her forehead and then go back to whatever it was you were doing. If she keeps pushing then just say "you are being ridiculous and I am not engaging in this conversation, end of story." Just shut it down.
I told her I do not want a divorce but will not stand in her way.
OK well we went over that before and it's good that you said it, but don't keep saying that. That's a one-time conversation.
I had read all these other stories on here, but said "nah, W is not like that"...that she has come out so crazy jealous just blows me away. I'm proud of myself that I didn't take any of her baits for a fight nor pursue her. Detached, act as if and went on. Anybody have any further suggestions/comments on how I handle this would be appreciated. The dynamics of our MR have really changed dramatically and suddenly.
I think you need to pull back more, there is still way too much R talk going on. Honestly who you talk to ceased being her business when she decided to end the M anyway. Whether you're talking to someone or not is no longer her business. That is how you need to look at it.
ballast, that is all true. I think the problem we make as newbies is trying detachment, 180s, and GAL only in terms of trying to get our spouse to come back to us. The problem is that they can see right through that. They can tell when we are just doing something to manipulate them.
As AS, and the other experts here point out, it isn't until we detach, GAL and 180 ONLY FOR OURSELVES that ironically the WAS suddenly takes notice and starts to get interested in what is going on. But by then many of the LBSs have already moved on and are really ready to end the MR. It is a weird dynamic.
If you DB to try to change your spouse, you will fail. If you DB because you truly want to prepare for life after your D then suddenly the WAS starts showing signs of wanting to R.
That was my point in my last response. It is like trying to fake sleeping while keeping one eye open to see if the person you are trying to fool notices. They can always tell you are faking because of your eye being open.............
^^^Yes exactly, and when someone sums it up so nicely it always reminds me of the lines from Swingers:
MIKE
And what if I don't want to give up on her?
ROB
You don't call.
MIKE
But you said I shouldn't call if I wanted to give up on her.
ROB
Right.
MIKE
So I don't call either way.
ROB
Right.
MIKE
So what's the difference?
ROB
The only difference between giving up and not giving up is if you take her back when she wants to come back. See, you can't do anything to make her want to come back. You can only do things to make her not want to come back.
MIKE
So the only difference is if I forget about her or pretend to forget about her.
ROB
Right.
MIKE
Well that [censored].
ROB
It [censored].
MIKE
So it's almost a retroactive decision. So I could, like, let's say, forget about her and when she comes back make like I just pretended to forget about her.
ROB
Right...or more likely the opposite.
MIKE
Right... Wait, what do you mean?
ROB
I mean first you'll pretend not to care, not call - whatever, and then, eventually, you really won't care.
MIKE
Unless she comes back first.
ROB
Ah, see, that's the thing. Somehow they don't come back until you really don't care anymore.
MIKE
There's the rub.
ROB
There's the rub.
Acc...I'm doing exactly as you say...BUT...last night I caught another huge round of jealous/anger from her. because our shared data plan has been used more than normal, she stated that I was sneaking around while playing the victim. this is of course complete BS. I have shed way too many tears/said too many prayers wanting to save our marriage. I told her I do not want a divorce but will not stand in her way. She said call logs prove otherwise to which I lol'd. God can stop me from seeing my D immediately if that were true. She tried to push me, but I stayed detached, said I'd work with her to separate our finances and then that I was going to bed.
Taking my ring off really caused her to start talking crazy. I had read all these other stories on here, but said "nah, W is not like that"...that she has come out so crazy jealous just blows me away. I'm proud of myself that I didn't take any of her baits for a fight nor pursue her. Detached, act as if and went on. Anybody have any further suggestions/comments on how I handle this would be appreciated. The dynamics of our MR have really changed dramatically and suddenly.
Ballast, you really really really need to try to get over your Nice Guy Syndrome AND detach from her emotionally. You are allowing what she says, and how she says it, to really affect you emotionally. That is unhealthy EVEN IN A GOOD RELATIONSHIP! Being overly attached, and not differentiated in a bad relationship will make you spin and spiral constantly.
I am sure you are well read in the detachment thread, but if you need to read it again. Her words need to be to you like water on a ducks back. It needs to roll off. YOu need to hear her, acknowledge, even validate, but then let it go.
Steve...honestly man while my posts show me explaining alot esp about my feelings, last night I really was detached. I mean now that what she is saying is completely crazy...she's enabling me to detach. I know I don't want that kind of dysfunction in my life. That is NOT to say that I'm not still very new at doing this and making mistakes but my friend I have moved much forward in my mindset as she has these outbursts.
Stander I appreciate your comments esp the Swingers entry! As I say I'm continually working to improve myself and how I address what she throws at me. I am stronger today in my outlook for the future than I have been since this began.
ballast, but again the problem is that you are having these emotional swings, and your W can detect that. She can see the effect her words have on you. No matter how much you think you can hide it. That is what the point of AS's Swingers post is, they will always know when it is just an act or if you really don't care.
Remember, water off a ducks back..............
Steve, I do provide information in my posts that show how I analyze internally this stuff/ask questions to everyone here...but honest to goodness last night I really didn't care...because it was just so much BS. I wasn't confused nor angry...I was laughing at how ridiculous it was. The only thing I didn't do was as Stander had said and told her exactly how ridiculous what she was saying was.
I am living as a duck now...I promise!
just got 2 pics of my D. W says she very sad we couldn't work even if she thinks I doubt that.
comments on hanlding that one?
just got 2 pics of my D. W says she very sad we couldn't work even if she thinks I doubt that.
comments on hanlding that one?
I wouldn't even respond. Seems like bait. She wants to know if you're still attached...
Yup. Don't respond - it's a temp check. She can cry a river to her friends and family.
meh so I replied saying I have no idea what to think right now. She said it all [censored], I said I agree.
meh so I replied saying I have no idea what to think right now. She said it all [censored], I said I agree.
Remember, she is being driven by feelings. Nothing else. Thinking. Having an idea. Having an inkling that even makes sense. None of that even matters to her right now.
The good news is that those feelings can change. That is what DBing is all about is getting the WAW's feelings to change. You can't tell someone how to feel, but you can make changes that their feelings can respond to.
felt I had to reply guardily
We have like 9+ months before anybody could file tough to hear her feel we are already over
Stopped at our favorite dive bar coming home today had not been in years felt ghosts and memories from when our love was young saw an old friend which made the trip all worth it
so last night was thankfully quiet. in the heat of our convo from the previous night when I told her I did not want a divorce and she said phone records prove otherwise, I simply replied LOL. I didn't feel confused/angry, but amazement she could think that. I'm trying to learn here with this ask...was what I said ok? I mean for sure it was my authentic reaction, BUT should I have said "I am not seeing anyone"? Should I have nipped her crazy in the bud or to let her wonder with the LOL? She basically implied that since she believes I am seeing others, she can/will do the same. Obviously I can't control whether she does or not, but again wanting to learn, could I have provided a better response.
Meeting an L tomorrow as an educational/prepare appt and then MC on Friday. Much has happened in the last 2 weeks since we last met. W will have our D for the long weekend going to her sister's so much time for me to GAL. My I'm done comment and her belief I'm seeing others I think has in less than 3 months got her feeling we're over. with her saying how sad she was yesterday we couldn't work, no lie I'm wanting to say to her "we don't have to be done, there is much time for us that remains"
guidance requested...again trying to LEARN but hey I'll always take a 2x4...
Ballast,
Her thinking you are in an A is her guilt. When she is ready she will ask you directly are you seeing someone else. At that moment, you can say something like, "I'm working to heal myself." If she presses you, Say, "why would you think, I'm seeing someone else, I'm a great man" Don't bring in what she has done or compare yourself to her. By saying something like. "I'm not you, why would you think I would do something like that." Keep your comments about you and your journey.
You W is trying to keep you attached to keep her fantasy going. But when she realize you are truly done, she will have to come to you with true/honest feelings. She will come to you remorseful and asking you to take her back.
These Sitch takes time, she will try a few tricks to keep you attached. WS are selfish and will do anything to try to manipulate their LBS. Once they see their manipulation wearing off, they first get mean, then indifferent, ambivalent and then sad. The WWs go thru cycles as well.
Keep up the hard work. You are doing good.
This is the #1 enemy of DB -- being impulsive, or doing what you think is intuitive. If W texts you, you do *not* need to respond. In fact sometimes you shouldn't. You want her to wonder what you're doing and what you're thinking. That is GOOD for you. If you give her resolution by answering her question, she's no longer thinking or wondering about you.
She basically implied that since she believes I am seeing others, she can/will do the same.
Pffft. Accusing you of seeing others was crazy-making. It is a no-win situation for you and the best response is to dismiss it. Once again, remember that right now she wants out and does not want to be the bad guy, so she's going to invent reasons that she is the victim here, and then seek *any* evidence that will support that. Calls I don't recognize on the phone bill? He must be cheating on me. Therefore, I'm the victim and am in the right to leave, he did this to me.
Why would you buy into that?
The other thing to be aware of is that cheaters are paranoid. When people start cheating and sneaking around, they begin to worry that everyone is doing that, and they can also project their own guilt onto you. If they're doing it, it can be okay if you're doing it too, or if you did it first, or if you did it worse.
I'm not saying your W is cheating, she may not be at all, but accusing the LBS of cheating is a very common thing for cheaters to do.
A few key points here: (1) there was no good response to her accusations, the only way to win that is not to play.
(2) even if you were seeing other people, that does not excuse or justify her cheating on you. We all take vows, we all need to live with integrity. Our integrity is not contingent upon what the other person does.
My I'm done comment and her belief I'm seeing others I think has in less than 3 months got her feeling we're over. with her saying how sad she was yesterday we couldn't work, no lie I'm wanting to say to her "we don't have to be done, there is much time for us that remains"
False, you're buying into her gaslighting. (Gaslighting: verb, manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity)
She's promoting a narrative that YOU are the one driving this separation, not her, and now you're buying into it by convincing yourself that one sentence uttered in one encounter, combined with your phone bill, is somehow responsible for her leaving.
You are NOT pushing her to take these actions, these are HER decisions, and she needs to own them. Don't for a minute let her off the hook by taking responsibility for her failure to work on this marriage. That is on HER, not on you.
Do NOT remind her that you're willing to work on it. That's the equivalent of the high school nerd chasing the cheerleader by doing her homework and buying her flowers while she dates the football player.
At this point SHE needs to convince YOU to work on this, because YOU are the one that rocks and are living an amazing life, and you DO NOT need her to be happy. You have happiness yourself, and it would be a blessing for her to be able to share it. That needs to be your mindset.
Acc
Acc...on the reply to her email...I was at work so she felt she had a captive me.
Also NO WAY did I buy into the crap she was saying. My LOL was my instant reaction to that craziness. She definitely pushed HARD saying "you are not a victim as you make it out"...um, yeah I completely am! Stander has given some comments on what to say in terms of not playing. She also was talking about judges not thinking we're working together and how that would be a problem. Like she was already putting together paperwork and we got a long way before she can even file. It was crazy and fury from her.
When she tries this stuff should I calmly but firmly keep saying this is YOUR decision, you need to own this? I will definitely not remind her of being willing to work on it. Amen to your last paragraph. I swear I wish you had like a bat phone when stuff with her popped off! Thank you!
And just like that I get an email with her using my first name. highlights to me in her mind the process of us becoming more formal and her moving away. it triggers me I admit, but I'll just address the subject regarding my D and move on.
ballast, likely she knows that triggers you and is using it to manipulate you. Reminds me of the scene in The Waterboy where he is reading the letters to his mom from his dad that ran off with another woman. The greetings got more and more formal until the last one read "To Whom It May Concern". WWs can be very hurtful. Somtimes it is in purpose, sometimes it is because they just don't care.
Good job on coming here to vent instead of showing your cards to her. I would ignore her emails related to working on the D. Eventually she will confront you verbally about it and you can explain to her that you are against the D and therefore want no part in it. Trust me that will make a bigger impression on a judge than working together on it.
I think more the reason is that she truly feels she's moving to D and so has become more formal. I don't think it's to be hurtful, but eh who knows. of course yesterday when she was "very sad" no formalities, just as if we were still H/W.
Also by D I meant daughter in this case.
So it's a quick ok, will do, but I will keep your info on the other D for future reference.
Acc I should add...over the phone logs she said I'm more done than ever and I'm sure I'm making the right decision...really trying to hammer me with it...even though it was complete crap. oh and don't talk to my family about it either...control of the narrative she is trying to maintain although they have long known she's done nothing.
Pffft. Accusing you of seeing others was crazy-making. It is a no-win situation for you and the best response is to dismiss it. Once again, remember that right now she wants out and does not want to be the bad guy, so she's going to invent reasons that she is the victim here, and then seek *any* evidence that will support that. Calls I don't recognize on the phone bill? He must be cheating on me. Therefore, I'm the victim and am in the right to leave, he did this to me.
^^^YUP^^^
The other thing to be aware of is that cheaters are paranoid. When people start cheating and sneaking around, they begin to worry that everyone is doing that, and they can also project their own guilt onto you. If they're doing it, it can be okay if you're doing it too, or if you did it first, or if you did it worse.
Absolutely. I've mentioned this before but it's been a while- a coworker of my ex had a cheating husband. Her attitude about it was to bury her head in the sand and pretend it wasn't happening, she didn't want to rock the boat. But he became so paranoid that he convinced himself that SHE was having an affair, and he actually demanded that she get tested for STDs before he would have sex with her again! How rich is that? AND SHE DID IT!!!! She never even talked to anyone else outside of work, meanwhile he was banging who knows how many sleazeballs.
with her saying how sad she was yesterday we couldn't work, no lie I'm wanting to say to her "we don't have to be done, there is much time for us that remains"
That is EXACTLY what she wants to hear, but not for the reasons you are hoping. She wants you to say it so she can BD you all over again and put you on the back burner. You say that and congrats, you cinched your position as Plan B for the foreseeable future.
And just like that I get an email with her using my first name. highlights to me in her mind the process of us becoming more formal and her moving away. it triggers me I admit, but I'll just address the subject regarding my D and move on.
I wish I could post that meme of Tony Stark rolling his eyes
Look at you go, spinning out of control all over again because what, she called you by your first name? DUDE! Detach! Let go! GET OUT! GAL!!!! She is going to say and do ALL KINDS of stuff you don't like or even hate. Get used to it, that's where she is right now. Next month or in 6 months or a year she may be a completely different person, but for now your W has been replaced with this crap version that barely resembles who you knew.
Agree with AS -- you're telling us how when you're interacting with W you're detached, not taking her bait, etc. but what you're focusing on here betrays your state of mind, and if we can see it, I guarantee she can too. 90% of communication is non-verbal.
You're way off the rails here. You're taking the way she chooses to address an email, and you're using it to draw conclusions about her state of mind, her future intentions, and what course your life will take from here forth.
Why are you giving her so much power over you?
It shouldn't matter if she addresses the letter to ballast, The Great Satan, or Blueberry Muffin Man. Who cares? You're living your life, you're doing your thing. Her labels don't concern you. Her state of mind doesn't concern you. You don't care if a judge thinks you're working together or not.
You don't care if she's done or not.
Let me say that again -- you don't care if she's done or not.
That's the attitude you need to assume, and if its not authentic act as if until its real.
Your view on this needs to be "go do your thing, W, do what you need to do in order to find happiness. I'm going to live an amazing life. If you want to be part of it in the future, we'll have to talk about that, but for now I wish you well"
You shouldn't say that to her directly, but everything about the way you react to her and respond to her should say that for you.
Don't be rude, don't be dismissive, don't be passive aggressive or antagonistic, just be uninvested.
If you had a crazy cat lady for a neighbor, you wouldn't care if she called you Rambo or Sunny Jim. It wouldn't make any difference to your day beyond maybe a moment of amusement. You certainly wouldn't alter your thinking about your future because of it.
If the crazy cat lady fell down her front stairs, you might help her stand up, make sure she didn't break anything, and then you'd go about your day and by dinner time you might forget that happened today. That's what we're talking about. W is now your crazy cat lady. She's in your life because you see her from time to time, but she's not driving your emotions whatsoever.
Easy to say, hard to do. How do you get there? You DB:
GAL
Act-as-if
180
That's it.
Acc
So Acc/AS who 2x4'd me above and deservedly so, THANK YOU! I'm an analytical type guy, she knows this and for sure changes up just to F with me.
Thankfully I do see W very little now such that I really can detach in terms of not contacting her, my GAL really is going well and act as if when I do see her. The reason for the power I give her over me is my fear of being twice divorced. In my mind I analyze every little thing along with her personality and fears of being twice D'd to cause me to say the things I do like the whole use my name on the email deal.
BUT today crazy girl was back. When she came to get D she said not a word. I had said thank you for an order she made for me. She said "I have nothing to say to you...keep texting" and left. Guys when I first came here and started reading about WWs I was like "OMG...thankfully my W ain't like that" but now as she has to me just flippin' lost it I'm still shocked I think. Thing is with that level of dysfunction, possible cheating, random crazy about me cheating, how long she could be spaced out, what's left IF she comes back, how do you recover through all that destruction she'll have left, why would I want to...honestly a HUGE part of me now is like being twice D'd ain't looking bad at all. I loved the woman I married total/done forever, I have a beautiful, happy, innocent D who deserves me given this MR every chance so she can have a family but my God at what cost? To endure what seems like borderline insanity from W, maybe it really is best to just say the H with this.
At minimum her comment tonight showed me she's lost it. As she's now gone to me so crazy, it's like she's actually enabled me to say the H with you woman. D and a new future looks MUCH more appealing than dealing with her crazy A any longer than I have to. I'm just pretty speechless. Happy that I'm going to see an L tomorrow. There is another exp member here starts with 25, I had seen a great post from them on living as if you'll be getting divorced. As nutty as W seems now, I'm going to invest heavily in the advice I found in 25's post while just letting W go and be my crazy cat lady. To somehow see ANY chance of an R with a W that will have an S'load of baggage if/when she ever comes out of wherever she is now, sitting here having a hard time seeing the investment of effort being worth it.
AS/ACC again you speak truth, I spoke crazy, just truly...I don't know how ANY man gets back a WW nor honestly why would they want to and AS has told me she's only getting started. Is there not some official mental health study on this WW stuff? If not, there should be.
Is there not some official mental health study on this WW stuff? If not, there should be.
No kidding...
W emailed to say she needs to get some more of her stuff before next Wed. Planning to just say "sure, whenver, I'm not going to be home this weekend"
thoughts?