Ste7e,
I am a newbie here as well, and I was struck by the similarities of our situations. I am 41, my wife 33. It looks like she is stuck in the throes of a MLC and is WAW. I left the house to give her space a month ago and am struggling with the exact same emotions as you are. I have only text/email communication with her for the most part, only met once in 4 weeks to talk. It is really hard. I don't know how much advice I can give you as I am living the same roller-coaster of pain as you are. For me it has been a revelation to realize that this is all about her MLC and the only thing I can do is try to hang on for the ride, give her the space she needs, make the changes to myself and hope that she realizes her mistake at some point.
Recopied from another thread because post was blank - Cadet
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Have you read the disappearing posts thread?
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2785770#Post2785770How are you typing your words into the reply box?
What kind of device are you using?
I am new here and wanted to share my story and ask for help. my wife and I have been married for seven years and together for eight. I am eight years older than her and she is thirty three. We were married in Colombia, where she was from and I was living there, there is no language barrier as we both speak Spanish and English fluently, and then shortly moved to the US where we have been living ever since. We have no children.
The first years of our marriage were good but my wife fell into a very deep depression. She was away from all of her friends and family in a new city where neither of us had any friends or family. She had no job and no direction in life. She had long planned to escape Colombia and move to Canada and had actually gotten a visa to live there but gave it up to live with me. Her desire for independence was always strong. She spent three months in Canada trying to get it out of her system during our first year in the states, and she traveled back to Colombia once a year or so for three to six weeks at a time without me, to spend time with family.
Despite the independent streak, which I supported in order for her to be happy, and the depression, we had a very positive relationship. We were kind and loving with one another and really made an attempt to make one another happy. It was hard during her depression because I realized that I couldnt make her happy, that she had to do that on her own, but I could be her rock, her support, holding her while she cried and lifting her spirits when I could.
In the last couple of years my wife had come out of her depression. She found a job that she could tolerate and more importantly began to construct a social network of friends in our city. At first it was just people who lived in the neighborhood who frequented our local bar, then we started rock climbing and she met more people there, and then we started doing group bicycle rides and she made some close friends there as well. It was great to see her come out of her shell and enjoy life again.
In August of 2017 I fell into a pretty bad depression bc of a traumatic incident at work that bothered me greatly. I never fully communicated with my wife about how traumatized I was but rather lost all motivation, gained 15 lgs and loafed on the couch much of the time. I was not great to be around, but at the same time I always expressed my love for her. In fact, I probably demanded more and more attention from her because I was depressed.
We took a trip to Italy in December and had a couple of huge fights, as well as some wonderful times, and we began to talk about going to couples counseling. We ended up putting it off as my wife was schedule to go back to Colombia for three weeks in late February to early March. Something about her trip motivated me to get off my butt and start exercising more. I remember that I cleaned the house from top to bottom before she came back. I waited at the airport for over an hour to pick her up at one a.m. and... what a let down. From the moment she came back she was cold and distant. Everything about her was pushing away from me. She was never hostile but it was clear that she didnt want to be around me. It broke my heart to watch her eyes light up when she saw a friend at the climbing gym for the first time after the trip. Her eyes never lit up when she saw me.
At that point, I completely changed my behaviour. I got off my ass and did the dishes at every opportunity, I took care of weeding, I collected all of my mess that I had strewn around the house, I mowed the lawn, etc. I also probably smothered her with attention and affection. I knew something was seriously wrong and I reacted out of desperation.
Shortly thereafter we started therapy over Skype with a counserlo in Colombia. But after just a few sessions it seemed clear to me that my W didn't want to use the therapy to strengthen the R but rather it was an oppportunity to tell me all the things that she was afraid to say, namely that she didnt want to be married anymore. She needed space, and since I am a teacher I offered to travel for the summer to give her some space.
The big BD was when I asked her out on a date. I had planned a whole surprise evening, going out on bikes, which she loved, taking the new light rail, and going to a restaurant she had never tried but would surely like. Of course she was completely closed down to me at that point and seethed throughout. That led to a teary conversation in which she said that she regretted ever getting married, that she didnt love me the way I loved her, and that there was absolutely nothing I could do to change her mind.
After more tearful conversations the following day, I moved out of the house. It was horrible. I had no place to be and no friends offering me a place to stay beyond the first night. I left the car with her, we only had one, and took off on my bicycle with as much clothing and personal items as I could carry in a backpack and a duffel bag. For the first few days she sent me texts telling me to take the car, or offering to move out herself, or even to try to coexist better. But she works from home and it would be very complicated for her to leave. At one point after a solo session with the therapist she suggested an 8 week plan to work through things while living separated. I expressed some skepticism because it seemed to come more from the therapist than from her, but at the end I said I would do it. At that point she want radio silent for nearly a week before saying that she couldnt start that type of process now because she couldnt enter into it with an open mind, she wanted the relationship to fail.
Over the following weeks I settled into a more stable housing situation until the end of the school year. I also started talking to a therapist on my own as well as reaching out to all of my friends and family. I realized that there is a lot of work that I could do on my own. W and I finally talked on the phone after two weeks for the first time. She was weeping throughout most of it. She is wracked with guilt and sure that my family and some of our common friends hate her. She also cares for me and my well being and hates that she is putting me through this. It was a relief to hear so conflicted. That said, I tried to assuage her guilt and help her work past that. I realized that guilt isnt going to get us back together.
We talked a few more times though she seemed more cold and distant in those conversations, and finally we set up a time to talk in person. Shortly before the meeting I stumbled upon the LRT for the first time and it made perfect sense to me.
We spoke for over an hour and a half in a park. I went into the conversation with a strange sense of peace. I think that I felt that I was ready and okay with nearly any outcome. I was composed and joking and remarkably positive throughout. She brought our huskie mix and she freaked out when she saw me, running and jumping on me in elation. It was a great icebreaker and started things off positively. W was in tears before she even reached me and we exchanged a long hug, one of several in the evening. She was still wracked with guilt over the pain she is causing me. Much of the evening was spent with me consoling her as she wept. She even remarked how I seemed to have changed and grown over the past few weeks. Even my physical appearance shocked her. Biking every day combined with loss of appetite due to stress had led me to lose over 25 lbs.
After we talked about silly housekeeping things I launched into my speech about how I felt over the past eleven months starting from the incident at school up until that day. W listened and let me talk. She really lost it when I talked about the frustration that I felt after I had supported her through three years of depression. I also added on how while this was a simply horrendous situation that it had also been the impetus for me to make a number of changes for the positive in my life and it had helped me grow. It wasnt bullshit, in that moment it was true.
At the end W told me that she didnt think it was fair to blame it all on the depression as she had been thinking of leaving as early as last spring. But it was clear that the depression and difficulty in living with me played a role. I told her that I saw love in her eyes even as recently as this January and she didnt deny it but said that it was waning at that point.
She told me in no uncertain terms that she doesnt want to be married. That certainly didnt come as a shock at this stage of the game. Whether or not that is permanent is unknown. I simply told her that I respected that she felt that way now. I continued saying that I felt her love in the past and that it was real and that I struggled to understand how it could vanish forever and that I believed it was still in her even if she couldnt access it now. She reiterated that everything between us was real and of course she had truly loved me. She still says that she loves me, just not in the way I love her.
She told me that I needed to let her go. That was a realization that it had taken me a long time to come to but had already recognized beforehand. Holding her tight became counterproductive. If she wants to find her way back to me I need to give her the time and space to do that or not do it. I told her that if there comes a point of reconciliation that it would be to build a new relationship not to resume the old one. I was also clear that there were no expectations at this point. I think most likely the relationship wont survive but all I can do is work on improving myself so that I am in a better place whatever the result. She desperately wants to keep me in her life as a friend but obviously that is complicated.
At the end we talked a little about the logistics and she was confused about whether or not I wanted to return to the house at the end of the summer trip. I thought I had been clear but evidently not. She is definitely planning on moving out and renting another place. We talked a bit about money and keeping joint accounts for now. She talked about maybe needing to buy a car. When I talked about eventually selling the house she broke down and said it was too much too soon for her.
All in all she really couldnt have been much more negative about the relationship and thoughts of reconciliation but it barely dented my positivity. I certainly didnt walk away with unrealistic hopes but I did leave feeling like I was in a better place. I will always believe the very real love she felt for me simply cant vanish but at the same time I was feeling more capable than ever of carrying on on my own. I told her that I laughed more in this conversation than any other with her in the previous six months. And it felt genuine. On an emotional level it was touching to see how much she cared about me and my suffering in this process. It was also nice to be able to hold her in my arms and wipe away her tears. We both remarked about how much we missed the physical touch. Perhaps that is a bit of fools gold but I dont think I took it for anything more than what it was.
That was nearly a week ago, four and a half weeks into the separation. Since then we have exchanged a few texts and emails nearly always initiated by her. They are mundane stuff about the house or bills but they are all pleasant and friendly, and I have tried to respond as positive and breezily as I can. In the meantime I am taking care of myself. I am reading as much as I can and that is how I discovered the DR which I devoured in a single night, this forum other fora, as well as other books. I am still in a bit of a manic exercise mode but I think that is one of the healthiest ways that I can deal. I am biking everywhere, 190 miles last week. I have been doing 6 a.m. hot yoga three days a week and going to the climbing gym twice a week. Physically I feel in better shape than since before I met my wife. I struggle at times to sleep and have to resort to taking a couple of NyQuil on many nights. My sense of calm and serenity didnt last long as by two days after our meeting I was already struggling with anxiety and obsessive thoughts. I am still communicating both online and in weekly phone chats with my therapist.
I was really struggling with all the things I did wrong in the relationship, and while I was always loving, there were certainly things I could have done better. However, when I got to the chapter in the DR on MLC, my heart nearly stopped. It was describing my W nearly to a T. I began to do other research online and everything I read resonated with my experience, other than my wife not having an EA. She exhibits so many of the symptoms of MLC.
She is unhappy in the marriage but cant say way. She told me in repeated conversations that it is her not me, that it isnt about anything I did or am doing.
She starts going out with single friends more. Absolutely. Going back months she started going out more and more with the biking crew and now the climbers. She would stay out till two or three a.m without texting me and wonder why I was annoyed.
She tells me that she loves me but is not in love with me. She never used those exact words, but it is exactly what she meant.
Cut off in intimacy. We had sex two or at max three times since January until the separation, three months, and only once after her trip to Colombia.
She says that she regrets getting married in the first place and implies that she got married too young.
She is working out more and more.
She wants out of the marriage and pushed for the separation.
She is not willing to work on the marriage.
She is heavily involved in new social groups.
She is discontent with her life in general.
She came back from Colombia and started a completely new diet or cleanse, all raw food and plant based with no meat, alcohol, or processed food.
She is scared of getting old and wants to stay young. Even before things got bad she made remarks about not being able to accept the aging process. I kind of laughed and said it was an early MLC but I obviously underestimated the severity of her feelings.
I am currently using the LTR and trying to live it the best I can. I am working on myself, being social, not initiating contact and responding as positively as I can to her. The detachment part is clearly the hardest part for me. It is easy to fake some of the other things but truly living the detachment element is tough. Realizing now that she is the throes of a MLC that it isnt my fault, and that I just have to try to wait it out and be as positive as possible has helped a bit shift the burden away from constantly questioning what I did wrong or how unfair she is being. Patience is also extremely hard. I know that I am making positive changes in my life. I know how I will treat her when I see her but it is frustrating bc she isnt in my life to see the changes. How can I give her the space she needs while still letting her know that my outlook has completely shifted?
I have a couple of practical questions that I think people on here could really help with as well. The first is a small one. I am scheduled to get a colonoscopy in two weeks and I had to ask someone to pick me up and W gladly accepted. Now I am wondering if that is a bad idea. I could probably ask a coworker but I would really like to see her. I am also worried because I will be coming out of sedation and I am not sure how well i will be able to control my emotions. That said, she is fine with it and I would really like to see her if only to show my progress.
The second issue is much thornier for me and I have been struggling with it recently. When we last spoke the agreement was that she would give me the car for the summer so I could road trip. Also when the summer is over, my plan was to move back into the house either with her there or not. She made it clear that she would definitely not be there and would be looking to rent something for six months or a year, not monthly like I have been doing. She really wants to be fair to me and while both of our names are on the mortgage I have been the primary salary and the person who put up the down payment. She feels like it my home.
However my therapist suggested that maybe I should not return to the house. He thinks it may be a trigger for me and could be unhealthy, and I dont necessarily disagree. Moving back into the house with all the memories of our relationship, she still has our pictures up, but without her there would be really hard for me. That, coupled with the trauma of returning for another school year could be too much for me all at once, according to him. I am torn. I desperately want to be back in my house, but I recognize that it could be unhealthy. I am also happier to take a month to month lease or six month lease rather than have my W make a more permanent decision to move out.
I know that I need to base this decision based on what is best for me but I also cant help but think about the effect on my wife. When I broached the subject of selling the house in the future she couldnt deal with the finality of that. Would moving out and giving up the life there be a positive step, one that she needs to take in order to realize she is making a mistake? Or is it better for her to stay in the house with all of its memories and maintain some sort of pyschic connection with our relationship? If it is clear to me that the relationship is over for good then I will certainly sell the house, but I want to push that off as far as possible.
So the situation as it stands is that I am scheduled to move back into the house in early August and she has three months to find an apartment, but I am leaning towards asking her to talk and saying that I am not ready to live in the house without her and asking her to stay while I make other arrangements. I am struggling with how to do that while still following the LTR. Does that sound like a mis step or am I thinking soundly here? We have lots of other connections and entanglements as well from our dog whom we both love dearly to our shared bank account, shared credit cards, shared cell phone plan, shared gym membership, etc. She has taken no steps to sever any of these and I dont want to either. We both trust one another not to take advantage of the other financially.
If you have read this far, thanks so much. I appreciate all the advice and support I have read so far.
Davide,
Try getting to a laptop and reposting your story I am very interested in your journey and thanks for commenting on mine.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Thanks. Since I posted so much above I wanted to highlight one question. I am scheduled to move back into my house at the start of the next school year in august and my wife is moving out. However my therapist thinks that might not be healthy for me and I am beginning to think he is right. Any opinions here? I am leaning towards calling my W and asking her to stay, which I think is her preference anyway. I suggested the idea of me moving back in and she went along. But I feel like I need to move quickly before she makes other plans.
Any thoughts?
The normal advice we give here is to not move out of the house or the master bedroom.
I think I will stick with that advice.
In a divorce situation most lawyers will advise the same thing.
If she is willing to move out. Let her.
Davide
Originally when my W wanted a break I had suggested that I move out of the house. I didn't follow through on that and I will tell you now that I really wish I had. I assume that other DB's will tell you to kick her out and move back into your own house and there is wisdom in that. Also in some states if you move out the other person can get the house in a D.
Your situation does sound alot like mine I wish you luck. Stay detached and focus on making yourself happy.
Just wondering if the advice to take back the house is more legal than psychological? I know that the W isn't out for the house or any money. That isn't the case here. But is there a psychological benefit to retaking the house or in asking her to leave? I just think it will be so much harder for me.
Ste7e,
Thanks for the advice. Why do you think that it would be better if you had moved out? I often question my own decision to do that. It certainly gave her the space she needed and it forced me to confront all of this head-on and start working on myself. But it also separated us. She can't see the growth or feel my change in demeanor.
What do you think the wisdom is in taking back the house? I really am struggling with that idea. Last night I was on a group bike ride and we rode within sight of the house and it triggered a ton of anxiety in me. I can't imagine living in that.
HELP!!!
I just received an email from the W. She was reading messages and looking at photos of our trips. She asked if I had learned anything in this month, if I had learned anything? She said that she hoped we were better and stronger.
She said a day like today she misses what we were, life companions, with jokes, making faces in photos, going out to dinner, of playing with our dog, exploring ideas and places.
This just sent me for a loop. I don't know how to respond. My first thought is that I need to calm down before I respond. I spoke with a colleague/counselor and she suggested that I simply ask her if she wants to talk. I know that I don't want to jump too aggresively at this, but it also feels like it could be a possible opening.
Please advise.
HELP!!!
I just received an email from the W. She was reading messages and looking at photos of our trips. She asked if I had learned anything in this month, if I had learned anything? She said that she hoped we were better and stronger.
She said a day like today she misses what we were, life companions, with jokes, making faces in photos, going out to dinner, of playing with our dog, exploring ideas and places.
This just sent me for a loop. I don't know how to respond. My first thought is that I need to calm down before I respond. I spoke with a colleague/counselor and she suggested that I simply ask her if she wants to talk. I know that I don't want to jump too aggresively at this, but it also feels like it could be a possible opening.
Please advise.
Sounds more like a test.
Don't say or do anything until you post it here and then wait 48 hours to get responses about what you plan to do.
This is not as urgent as you are making it out to be.
Take a deep breath.
Have you read the pursuit and distance thread?
Thanks!
I know that I am blowing it up in my mind. It is the first weakness in her resolve that I have seen in the past few weeks. The part of me that thinks is urgent is convinced that I have to talk to her while the doubts are strong. Of course, I realize that is probably coming from a place of weakness and is reactionary when I should strive not to be reactionary.
I left off the part where she talked about wondering why she did this and whether she is making a mistake and why she had to ruin everything.
I don't think this is a test. We don't have that type of relationship. She is honestly struggling with this.
I think I need to validate her feelings and support her. I sort of like the idea that the counselor suggested to me. Simply asking if she wants to talk.
I wish I would have moved out because her moving out seemed to force her hand not to work on things preemptively. I hadn t had a chance to make changes yet.
I don't think this is a test. We don't have that type of relationship. She is honestly struggling with this.
You obviously do not have the relationship that you thought that you had or you would not be posting here.
Correct?
Time to make some 180's.
What are they going to be?
That is a very fair point about not having the relationship that I thought. It is true. I thought I had a partner I could count on through thick and thin that would work out problems with me rather than deciding to leave (figuratively).
That said, my W, while not always forthcoming about her feelings has never lied to me. That is not her personality or morality. She is hurting me now and being selfish, but she owns up to that and recognizes it.
In terms of 180s, I think you are probably spot on. Previously I would have immediately responded and jumped in about how much I have grown and what a positive relationship we had. I would have seized desperately at this opening. I would have used it as an opportunity to profess my undying love for her, about how I would be waiting at the end when she came out of this.
I think my response now should be more measured. It should focus entirely on her, validating her feelings, asking her questions, and leaving myself out of it. One issue that I see is that I have always taken on the role of the protector and person who would console her (since she was depressed for so long). How do I do a 180 from that without being cold or distant?
One issue that I see is that I have always taken on the role of the protector and person who would console her (since she was depressed for so long).
How do I do a 180 from that without being cold or distant?
So has she FIXED these issues?
Or is she still depressed?
Good question. I would have said that she had come out of her depression. At the very least she had improved greatly over the past two years.
However, she does seem to be in the throes of a MLC and discontent with her life. I don't think that is depression, though.
Good question. I would have said that she had come out of her depression. At the very least she had improved greatly over the past two years.
However, she does seem to be in the throes of a MLC and discontent with her life. I don't think that is depression, though.
Sorry to disagree but MLC is ALL about depression.
No need to be sorry. You could definitely be right. Does that change how I should handle the situation?
No need to be sorry. You could definitely be right. Does that change how I should handle the situation?
Well I guess my first question is do you want to be married to someone that is depressed and breaking different marital boundaries?
That is not taking care of themselves and running away from their own problems?
Just understand that I married someone like this and was married with what I thought was a great marriage for 28 years.
So next question is what boundaries do you have?
I have my own depression issues, so that is indubitably a factor in what led me to my wife.
I do want to be married to my wife, even when she was in the throes of a deep depression there were was a great love shared between us. Unfortunately I think I fell into a form of codependency in which everything I did became about taking care of her. That was as much my own problem as hers. I am working on myself right now, to find myself and build myself up so that I am in a better position for a relationship, whether it be this one or another. She is clearly working through her own issues as well.
I think that she was right that our relationship had devolved into a bad state. I don't think that she needed to blow it up the way she did in order to fix it, but I understand her inability to carry on the way things were going. I think she is taking care of her own problems the only way she knows how. She is reflecting and journaling and doing work on herself. Obviously, I don't agree with the running away from the relationship, but she clearly recognizes her own faults and need to improve herself.
That is a great question about my boundaries. I don't know the answer exactly. I know they are out there, but how would you advise drawing them up. I have already started to detach from the relationship because of her actions, but 4 weeks is not enough time for me to get there fully.
That is a great question about my boundaries.
I don't know the answer exactly. I know they are out there, but how would you advise drawing them up. I have already started to detach from the relationship because of her actions, but 4 weeks is not enough time for me to get there fully.
I think buried in here is the way to answer some of her questions.
If you really feel the need to have to answer, which I am not sure you really should do.(My opinion only)
Cadet, Thank you so much for your responses. They certainly push me to think in different ways. I have read through the thread on boundaries, but I'm not sure how to apply them here.
I am still really struggling with not responding at all. Obviously jumping back in and sharing my beautiful memories of our relationship, or professing my love, is not the way to go. But it seems somewhat cold and distant to ignore a message like that. I read through Sandi's rules and I have been following them pretty well thus far. But in this case, she has initiated contact. I feel like the compassionate thing to do is to respond by asking if she wants to talk and then listening and validating her feelings without pushing her anywhere or sharing my feelings.
Can people explain to me the flaw in my thinking?
I am clearly no expert but I think you want to wait until she comes to you with a desire to work on the R vs just a temp check?
Fair point. But I wasn't going to work on the relationship with her. I was going to ask her if she wanted to talk so that I could listen and validate her feelings. Don't I want to establish a positive presence in her life?
Don't I want to establish a positive presence in her life?
What have you been doing for the last 7-8 years?
Are you trying to have a positive presence while she is in a MLC?
Let me say that you can not talk your way out of it.
I wasn't a positive presence. I was depressed and co-dependent.
I am trying to work my way out of that. It is surely a long process, but I am taking steps.
I have no illusions of talking her out of her MLC. I simply want to validate and show that I care about her.
She knows that you care already...don t take the bait Also congrats on taking steps to fix yourself I know how hard it was, Just keep getting stronger
So I have now gone 24 hours without responding to my wife's message. I realize the need for detachment, but I am still struggling because I want to be the lighthouse for her. I want to listen to her and show that I care about her, even if I can't care for her. I know she is on her own journey and that I can't hasten that nor can I lift her out of it. But I want to be that beacon of light and stability. Maybe I am not ready for that yet, maybe I still need to do much more work on myself.
Remember that Lighthouses do not go running all over the island looking for ships!
They patiently wait for them!
Thanks cadet! I am trying.
Can some more seasoned people here talk to me about why it would be better for me to move back into the house in August. My W has already agreed to that, with her moving out. But, my therapist thinks that is a bad idea because the house is a trigger for me, and it will be hard for me to stay detached and move on with my life if I am in there. I am really not sure what to do. But I need to decide in the next week or so.
Again, I am not worried about the legal ramifications. What is the psychological benefit of me moving in and her moving out? To my eye it looks sort of like she moves on with her life and I get stuck in the past.
Are you going to sell the house or keep it?
Great question.
Long term if the relationship ends up not working out we will sell the house because neither of us really wants to live with those memories. Other than my wife and job I really have very few connections to the community where I live. I would most likely move elsewhere in the country or outside the country. That said, I am a teacher and am committed to coming back for one more school year. The laws in our state mandate a 12 month separation before divorce as well.
More or less I see selling the house as completing giving up on the relationship. It's not a step that I am ready to take yet, but if we get to next year and my situation is the same it is quite likely.
Today was a good day. Low anxiety. I was able to get work done at school. I got a prescription for SSRIs but not the ones I wanted, and after reading about the weight gain I am doubtful I am going to take them. I got out with a good group for a 23 mile bike ride in the evening to get to 190 miles on the bike again this week. I felt good. Free. Happy. I was focused on me, it felt good to be strong on the bike.
I'm still very much on the fence about moving back in to the house. It just seems so psychologically hard for me.
Also, I am scheduled to get a colonoscopy in two weeks and the W had agreed earlier to take me - I need someone to drive me and wait for me and take me home because I will be under general anesthesia. I might be able to find someone else, but it could be hard. She was willing to do it and already offered. Is it a bad idea to let her do it?
HI David,
I wish I knew more and could offer great advice. Unfortunately, I'm new here and dumb. Focus on yourself and find your strength.
Good luck with your situation.
Thanks a lot.
I'm feeling good. Lower anxiety.
But, I'm still struggling with whether or not to move back in, and whether or not to let my wife take me to the colonoscopy.
I have had two really good days in a row. I am enjoying life in a real way right now, not just forcing myself to go out. I have rarely slipped back into thoughts about the relationship. I have been GALing to my hearts delight, and even was able to enjoy a night in the house doing nothing but chilling, eating and watching Netflix last night. That would have been impossible even a week ago. Of course, I don't expect that it will be smooth sailing, but I am content to ride out this good patch as long as it lasts.
I spoke with my therapist today and was able to make a couple of decision which put my mind a little more at ease. I am going to stay off meds (SSRIs) for the time being at least. Also, I have decided that I am going to move back into the house in August and let my wife make her own plans to leave. That certainly comes with a fair amount of psychological danger as I will be surrounded by memories of our relationship. But, at the same time I will have 3 more months to detach, made easier by leaving the city for two of them. Also, I feel like it will be harder for me to keep GALing if I am stressed about finding and living in temporary apartments. At least I will be in my own house and not have to worry about that, that burden will be shifted to her.
I also decided that I will write W next week. I will acknowledge that I got her anguished email and validate her feelings and tell her that I hope she is talking with someone, either a friend or professional about them. But then I will pivot and tell her that we need to talk at some point in the coming weeks about the arrangements of her moving out, what she will take or leave, etc... I think that is a nice compromise because it doesn't ignore her message but it doesn't fall back into our previous dynamic. When we do end up talking I plan on telling her that I think the dog needs to stay with me in the house since it is her home and she has a yard to play in, as opposed to some random apartment complex.
I have no idea if this process is helping to save my marriage but it feels like it is helping to save my life.
One of the issue with GALing and doing a 180 is that it involves me being very social. Going out with friends, hanging out. Over the last 8 months I hardly did that all. My issue is that it often involves alcohol, which I am trying to limit as much as possible. When i drink I get in my head. When I drink, the next day tends to be rougher because I didn't sleep well.
Yesterday was a fabulous day as I went on a bike tour of the city for 17 miles with a good group of guys and then went to a local bar to watch a friend's band play. The tour was basically a tour of breweries and bars, and I refused any drinks for the most part, but 1.5 free beers were too hard to turn down over the course of the afternoon. Same thing when I went to the bar. I held myself to only 2 glasses of wine over 3 hours. Yet even with that little amount, I feel myself slipping a bit, and I struggled to sleep well. When I woke up this morning to an alert on my phone from the credit card company saying that someone (W) had used the card for a LYFT at 2:30 a.m. it was hard not get in my head and wonder...
I suppose it is normal to have moments of weakness, but it is hard.
Can I ask a stupid question?
I feel like I am getting to a better place because of all the words of wisdom I have picked up on these boards. I am detaching and GALing and doing the 180s and am ready to validate when I get the chance, and trying to be the lighthouse, etc... It has been extremely beneficial for me to read through so many other people's situations. There is so much collected wisdom around here. I have gone out and bought numerous books based on recommendations here. I can't thank all of you enough.
But I also would love to hear actual responses to my situation from some of the veterans here. Cadet has been a rock for me, but otherwise I can't seem to draw a response from anyone. Am I just being impatient, or am I doing something wrong in terms of framing my questions? I know that I am a newbie, so I wonder how much of it is me not knowing the way to engage here, and how much is people simply not being invested in my situation since I am a new face.
So I never responded to my wife's anguished email about how unsure she is of everything and how good we were together. That was on Wednesday. However, I do need to reach out to her to arrange picking up the car from her for the summer and talking about the process of me moving back into the house in August (i.e. that the dog should stay, what she is going to take from the house, how much we can afford her to spend on an apartment, whether we should start separating our bank accounts...) My therapist suggested that I acknowledge receiving her email, validate her quickly, and then pivot to asking to talk on the phone about the summer plans.
I sent him a draft of my email, but wanted to share it here as well to get some feedback.
W,
I got your email. It sounds like you are really struggling, and I understand how hard this is. I really hope that you have someone to talk to about it, whether it is a friend or (her sister), or a therapist. I think that would be really helpful.
At some point in the coming weeks I'd like to talk about arrangements for this summer and for when I come back. There are some things that we need to talk through together. I know this all really awkward and uncomfortable but I do think we need to talk about it. Let me know if there is a good time for you to talk.
Also, I bought some supplies on amazon and shipped them to the house since I don't really need them until then (except, maybe a rain jacket I bought), so just be aware they might be arriving this week. Also, I'd love to see (the dog) since I haven't seen her in a while. I am going out of town on Wednesday and won't be back until Friday, so it would have to be another time, maybe Tuesday evening.
Davide I too wonder why I don't get the same amount of involvement in my thread. I wonder if it has something to do with there not being a known active A or us not having kids?
It might just be a newbie thing. No one really knows us well, or our story.
I am trying to comment for other people, but I am certainly no expert, so I don't try to pretend I have more expertise than I do.
I'd be happy to hear your thoughts...
Why did you move out of the house? How do you know your W is not having an A?
When I first got on this board I wanted people to write back all the time in real time and I had a million questions. You will get good feedback here, don't worry about that. Just slow down, read up on all the resources, put Sandi's rules in practice and evaluate, and keep posting.
Just because you are not getting a reply doesn't mean that people aren't reading. I used this board as a good place to journal too, even when no one was writing in. Someone will respond, but it might not be right away.
Also, the traffic slows waaaaaaaaaaayy down on the weekends. Keep that in mind.
Davide, i know Sandi has said she waits awhile reading newbie stories and gathering info before she starts giving input. i know it took time for vets to start posting on my threads. just keep posting, people will come.
Maika and 44tries, thanks for reaching out with those messages. It's probably a lack of patience on my part, and I recognize that. I'll just keep posting. The frustration is asking for feedback on specific situations and not getting anything.
Joseph,
I moved out of the house because I found the situation unbearable after the BD. I am a teacher and I had offered to travel for the summer before the BD, and then after getting the BD, i felt like it would be unhealthy for me to stay in the house with her. It was an attempt to detach and pull a 180 before I even knew what those terms were. I moved out rather than her because it would have been super complicated for her (I know, NGS!) since she works from a home office. It was an emotional decision, and possibly not the best one. In the aftermath my wife offered to move out herself, but I had already taken the step and it felt easier to stick with it.
In terms of an affair, I guess it is fair to say that I don't know. I don't think she has in part because she has been honest with me throughout the process, and she has never given me any reason to suspect an affair. When I left I asked her not to bring anyone home and she looked at me like I was crazy and said that she wanted to be independent and not in relationship, with me or with anyone. She certainly could be lying or be having an EA, but it would surprise me. She has always been a caring and honest person even during this MLC.
Does it really matter if she is having one? I feel like my detachment and 180s are still going to be the same.
I moved out rather than her because it would have been super complicated for her (I know, NGS!) since she works from a home office. It was an emotional decision, and possibly not the best one.
Every sitch is different however I don't think what you did is NGS unless you were expecting something in return. For me having NGS syndrome means that you do something, expect something in return and when you don't get what you want in return you pout, get angry, become passive aggressive, etc.
If you did it because it made sense that is something different or if you did it because you didn't want a conflict or argument or because you couldn't stand up to her that is different as well.
The general advice is for the LBS to not move out of the house and is usually only recommended in extreme situations. What made it unbearable? If it's just because it would be challenging for your W then that is not a good reason.
I don't think she has in part because she has been honest with me throughout the process, and she has never given me any reason to suspect an affair.
Have you snooped to gather intel? How do you know she is being honest? There may really not be an A but in almost all of the situations on the board there is.
Does it really matter if she is having one? I feel like my detachment and 180s are still going to be the same.
From that standpoint no it doesn't matter, the process is still the same and now that your separated there isn't much you can do. However if she is having an A and you moved out of the house what is stopping her from moving the guy in? There is an LBS on the board who moved out and his W moved OM in. They are still married and his W is still living with the OM in his house.
Every sitch is different but just because you asked her not bring anyone in doesn't mean that she won't and just because you think she has been honest doesn't mean she has and just because you think there is no A doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Have you snooped to gather intel so you know what your up against? What is stopping you from moving back home?
Joseph,
First, thanks for the responses.
I have not snooped. First, because I do trust her. Second, because I don't think it would help clarify my situation at all. I don't really see the point in snooping at this point, and it would violate my own moral code.
Second, she has not moved anyone into the house. I have been back numerous times, normally with her out of the house, or her in bed (she knows I am coming, it is not a sneak attack!) just to pick things up or visit the dog.
Third, we have an arrangement where, at the end of the summer after my trip, I am returning for the following school year and returning to the house. Originally, I told her that she was welcome to stay or go, that it wasn't an ultimatum. But at our last face/face meeting she told me that she would be moving out. That is fine. She feels extremely guilty for more or less forcing me out of the house because of her issues, and she isn't going to put up any problems with me coming back.
I moved out because mentally I was getting crushed living with someone who clearly didn't love me back. I knew she needed space, but it was also, primarily, about me. She had told me that there was nothing I can do, and everything I had tried up until that point seemed to backfire as I was suffocating her with love (typical pursuit/distance dynamic). I think subconsciously I knew that I needed to detach and needed space to do that.
I definitely had NGS for a while. I thought if I did nice things for her, she would love me again. I am breaking free from that, though.
No problem, I am sorry you find yourself here. It sounds like you have a plan and your comfortable with it. I guess just sit back and see how it plays out.
Just keep your guard up and if you find out there is OM (hopefully not) is that a deal breaker for you?
You indicated about that no one comments on your thread. What questions do you have?
Thanks Joseph!
I do have a plan. How well it works out, and how well I stick to it is very much up in the air!
I don't know if an OM would be a dealbreaker or not. I also think that the BD and all this was not precipitated by one, i.e. if there is one, he came later. (I still don't think there is one.)
My one pending question at the moment is just about contacting the W. She wrote me an anguished email last week and I never responded, but I also need to reach out to set up a time to talk about summer arrangements, and what will happen when I move back in. I put up a draft of the email I want to send earlier in this thread. I have not been contacting her at all since the last time we met in person (nearly 2 weeks ago), just responding. This would be a break from that, but I feel like I need to do it since we have practical things to talk about.
Sorry in a rush and I will go look at your email and give you feedback. I need to brush up on your whole sitch before I do that.
But when it comes to breaking contact, you do it only for business stuff (house, finances etc) and kids stuff. You don't have kids but in your case you might have to coordinate stuff about the dog, I dunno.
I would break contact for business stuff and be pleasant and polite.
About the other email, you don't want to ignore or avoid her, but if there is R stuff that she brings up, you want to validate and listen actively.
Maybe others will chime in before I get a chance to respond. Hang in there man! I know this is a rough spot and it's a long road. But, you will emerge better and stronger with the work you put in.
Will catch up soon on your thread.
Just to be clear I do not advocate for continued snooping....it does not help you detach. I only advocate snooping to make sure you have information/intel. Once you get your intel then you can stop. Does it change your actions since you are separated it doesn't but at minimum you know where you stand.
I snooped for about a week after my W moved out....I didn't find anything and I stopped. Had I found something then I would have been faced with a decision on whether or not I wanted to continue to be married to my EW.
As far as the letter goes send it but only send it if it's critical. Don't look for excuses to contact and if today is the drop dead date that you an answer on things then fire away. Do the practical things have to be settled today? This week? Or are you fishing to see where you stand?
As far as the letter goes send it but only send it if it's critical. Don't look for excuses to contact and if today is the drop dead date that you an answer on things then fire away. Do the practical things have to be settled today? This week? Or are you fishing to see where you stand?
I am definitely not trying to look for excuses to contact her. But we do need to talk about things before I leave for the summer, and there is one pressing issue (nothing to do with the relationship) next week. So, I think I am fine with that.
Here is a copy of the email. Am I validating well enough? or too much? I feel like there is a balance to strike.
W,
I got your email. It sounds like you are really struggling, and I understand how hard this is. I really hope that you have someone to talk to about it, whether it is a friend or (her sister), or a therapist. I think that would be really helpful.
At some point in the coming weeks I'd like to talk about arrangements for this summer and for when I come back. There are some things that we need to talk through together. I know this all really awkward and uncomfortable but I do think we need to talk about it. Let me know if there is a good time for you to talk.
Also, I bought some supplies on amazon and shipped them to the house since I don't really need them until then (except, maybe a rain jacket I bought), so just be aware they might be arriving this week. Also, I'd love to see (the dog) since I haven't seen her in a while. I am going out of town on Wednesday and won't be back until Friday, so it would have to be another time, maybe Tuesday evening.
Hello, Davide.
You strike me as being an empathetic, compassionate individual. Your email response seems loving and kind. I am no expert, as I am a newbie at this myself. But I wouldn t overthink it. There are no right or wrong answers, as every situation and every individual is unique.
I do hope your wife sees that you are being motivated by love. Good luck to you!
Paco,
Thanks for the encouragement. I am well aware that I am overthinking it. Haha. I am quite comfortable in my plan and really happy with the progress that I have been making. I am in such a better place than I was three weeks ago.
What I don't trust are my instincts when talking/emailing with my W. Doing a 180 is so counter-intuitive that it sometimes makes me question myself.
You can send it.....I know your analyzing every move because your early in your sitch but just know it won t make or break your chances for recon.
Edit - using special characters are causing your posts to disappear - cadet
I am going to have to disagree with Paco here. I am sure you are kind and empathetic and that everyone's situation is unique, but believe you me, there is a common pattern in the behavior and even rationalizations that go across the board for the WAS/WW/WH.
You can definitely not improve the situation, but you can make it way way worse. I wouldn't do what you think is 'right'. Your perspective of what is right is probably very very 'wrong' right now. We can have a philosophical discussion of what is 'right' and 'wrong' but this isn't the space and time for that. You can most definitely do 'wrong' things..
I am going to catch up on your sitch, but just reading your email, I know that it's not good. I see your intentions, but it has great potential to backfire.
W,
I got your email. It sounds like you are really struggling, and I understand how hard this is.
I really hope that you have someone to talk to about it, whether it is a friend or (her sister), or a therapist. I think that would be really helpful.
NOPE! Do not say that.
At some point in the coming weeks I'd like to talk about arrangements for this summer and for when I come back. There are some things that we need to talk through together. I know this all really awkward and uncomfortable but I do think we need to talk about it. Let me know if there is a good time for you to talk.
NOPE! Say something like this: We need to discuss (insert topics) about this summer. I am free (insert time and date) and let me know if you're available.
Remove everything else. It's obvious and sounds weak sauce.
Also, I bought some supplies on amazon and shipped them to the house since I don't really need them until then (except, maybe a rain jacket I bought), so just be aware they might be arriving this week.
Did you do this to get brownie points from her? This is equivalent to pursuing. Well, it's done now.
I'd say: I bought some supplies and they will be arriving this week at the house.
Also, I'd love to see (the dog) since I haven't seen her in a while. I am going out of town on Wednesday and won't be back until Friday, so it would have to be another time, maybe Tuesday evening.
I'd like to see the dog as well and I will swing by Tuesday evening.
However, don't make excuses for seeing her and getting in contact.
Your email is wishy washy and pursu-ey, and like you're walking on eggshells. Be specific, direct, assertive, while being pleasant. It takes time to achieve this balance, but your email is most certainly not that right now.
Don't worry, good you posted it here first. This is just my take.
Yeah, oh well. I waited as long as I could, but I already sent the email before I got your reply Maika! haha! I appreciate your words nonetheless.
I think the worst part is waiting on a response. It is so much harder to detach and GAL when I am waiting for her to get back to me. The anticipation is such a distraction. And I am aware that is a sign that I am not far enough detached.
Honestly, I want to take care of as many of the logistical arrangements for her transfer out of the house and my re-insertion into the house as I can BEFORE my trip. Once I leave the city for 6 weeks, I want to be able to detach as fully as possible, and having those little things hanging over me will make it that much harder. I think that 2 months out of town, visiting friends and family and exploring the country will be the perfect aid to my detachment journey.
D - You and M appear to have very similar characteristics. When M started his journey he went about it very methodically, very structured and seemed to have every move he made logically laid out. His closet is spectacular! I think you could learn a lot from him and his journey.
M is accurate but just know your W is not going to D you over that letter. Also know that those who try the hardest to save their MR have the least success.
I could be off but these are my observations. Good luck!
Thanks a lot Joseph and Maika. I appreciate the interest you have taken and the advice (even if I havent followed all of it.)
So my wife responded by text, saying that I should stop by and see the dog tonight and we can talk on Saturday or Sunday. Very short and to the point. Which is fine. I am trying not to read too much into it.
So, I want to talk to her about plans for this summer because I have to go to the house, pack stuff and take the car from her (I am taking it for the summer). She needs to get it serviced beforehand.
I would like to get some things squared away before I leave so I dont have them hanging over me. But I am afraid that I would be pressing my wife (i.e. pursuing) when I need to be pulling back.
Specifically
1) I would like to know if she is buying a second car (we have shared accounts). Financially we are ok, but we have always been a one-car family, and that is a huge purchase.
2) I want to tell her that the dog should stay in the house with me, since it is the only home it knows and we have a fenced-in yard, as opposed to whatever apartment she finds. This could be awkward, but it feels right to me, and giving up the dog seems like it would be more NGS.
3)I would like to know what of our shared household things she is planning on taking. e.g. she will be taking the desk and work station she works at, but will she take the fold-out couch? Will she take kitchen ware? etc... It all seems so mundane, but I don't want to be texting her about that stuff while I am traveling. I want to be as NC as possible. I know that will help with my detachment.
What do you all think? I am afraid that I am pressing too much too soon. But I really want to be able to be NC while traveling.
Ever since I sent the email reply to her I have found my anxiety level has shot up. After receiving her response, I am trying to steel myself to talk her this weekend. I know how the attitude I want to go into the conversation with - matter of fact, upbeat, non-judgemental. Getting myself into that frame of mind is my job over the next 4-5 days.
1) why do you need to know? if she knows she won't have the car, I am sure she's a big girl to figure it out. If it's about the finances, then it's a different story. Then it can be a conversation because it's business and you stay on point.
2) sure, but how high is this on your list of priorities to get squared away? is this something that can be broached later in the summer? You could discuss it then by saying that it would be good for the dog to stay in the house, but you are open to figuring out a sharing system if she also wants to keep the dog. Don't make it that she comes and visits it at your place. Treat it like a custody arrangement.
3) I am no lawyer, but all of the stuff is shared property. She can't just take things. But to keep it low key, you can ask her what she plans on taking and making a list and having a copy with you as well. If you need to split assets later, you might need it, even if it's minor. Again this is business, so keep it on point.
I would suggest that you talk about stuff that you need to get squared away before summer so that you don't need to break NC. But, if some things can be discussed later, re: dog, do it then.
Do some nice things for yourself until the day she wants to talk. Maybe schedule something really fun right after she leaves on the weekend. Stay upbeat, validate, and just actively listen to her.
I know it's hard. I remember the early convos with W and they were fraught with emotions and anxiety for me.
As I say, the balance you want to achieve is being assertive, validating and pleasant. Treat her like she's an acquaintance.
I don't have a problem with you discussing logistical stuff as long as you can do it without getting emotional.
When my W and I separated we had the same type of discussion and she told me what she wanted to take. I just listened and agreed since there was nothing I wanted that she wanted.
You anxiety level spiking is normal since you are not detached. It's not a criticism your just very early on.
Thanks guys! I am aware that my anxiety level is a result of not being fully detached. I'm still just 5 weeks post BD, so I think it is probably unrealistic to be fully detached.
Maika, just to be clear I am not in the house currently, my wife is. I have to return there before my trip to pick up the car and supplies for my trip.
My feeling is that the dog is a very sensitive issue. That will hurt her a lot, but I think she will recognize that it is best. I am certainly willing to work out a sharing system if it comes to that. I just would rather start that conversation now rather than spring it on her later and deal with all the emotions then.
Regarding the car, we just spent 11 grand on a used car and then put another 5 grand in when it died on us within a month. I know that if she is going to buy another car she is going to want to clear it with me - my thought is just to discuss a general price range and tell her anything in or under that range is fine and that she doesn't need to let me know.
I'm not worried about her trying to run away with our stuff. Not at all. I guess the best way to frame it would be to ask her to put together a list of what she thinks she would need to take. I took nothing but a duffel bag when I left, but that is because I always saw my time away from the house as temporary. She is seeing it as permanent or at least longer-term.
Should I tell her that I am doing this now so as to cut down on contact over the summer, or just frame it as a way to avoid hassles or arguments while I am traveling?
In terms of GALing, I am going on a school field trip Wed-Friday, and then going out to a concert with friends on Friday evening. I am definitely keeping myself busy. I think I would rather talk to her on Saturday to get it over with, and then have Sunday to recover from it and go to the gym, get out, see people.
I am really trying not to hold on too tight. She is already gone. I know all I can do is take care of myself, be the lighthouse, and maintain the flicker of hope that gets out the other side of this MLC and realizes what a good thing we actually had.
I would not mention anything about what your intentions are other than you are trying to get things organized before you leave.
So. I texted the W back saying Great! I'll call you at 5:30 on Sunday. Then I went over to the house and took the dog for a nice long walk. It felt different for some reason. I wasn't triggered like I often have been while going back to the house. Also, it so nice to spend time with the dog who loves me so unconditionally. I miss that sort of love. It brightens up the whole house. I really do need her (the dog) around the house if I am going back to live there.
Tomorrow morning early I am off on a school field trip for 3 days which will hopefully help me detach further. I downloaded a bunch of audiobooks on relationships for the bus ride and plan on getting through a bunch of them. The lack of exercise will be tough on me, but we will be walking around all day long in colonial Williamsburg.
Thanks again for all the vets chiming in here, especially Joseph and Maika. This has become my outlet, and has helped so much. I'm not religious at all, but as they say, you are doing God's work here. Thanks.
Enjoy your trip and focus on the awesome things you'll be doing. This is a long road and any opportunity you get to take a break from it, it's worth it.
Ugh... today has been horrible. A 5:30 a.m wake up call and race to get to school on the bike in a light rain, followed by a 7 hour bus ride with 5th and 6th graders, and a brutally boring tour of Yorktown. I am feeling the lack of exercise -no yoga, no climbing, little biking, no daily walk, plus my great diet got replaced by Chick-Fil-A and barbecued chicken sandwich and fries. I feel awful.
On the positive side, I spent much of the bus ride listening to "It takes One to Tango" which is a great relationship book. It is not really aimed at separated spouses, but the overall message is spot-on with DBing. All about how a relationship is a system and if one person unilaterally acts and introduces change it will change the system. I highly recommend it.
All that has led to raising my anxiety level rather than lowering it. Ugh. My exercise, and diet, and social outings had become routine that comforted me and made me feel good about myself. This disruption has been hurtful. I hope that my own personal trip this summer is not like this.
In terms of my upcoming talk with the W, I know that I want to focus just on the stuff we need to take care of. My question to the experts is how to start it? Normally, I would start by asking how she was (casually) or how things were going, but I am afraid that could be seen as pursuit. But it also seems rude to go directly to the point and say "Hi W, could you make an appointment to tune the car up before my trip?"
Ha yeah I remember some pretty brutal week long trips with students and how bad the food was
I also had a day if poor eating choices recently and it spun me in a bad direction
And to think only 3 months ago my entire diet was bad food choices no wonder I had a MLC and crippling depression
Hang in there Davide your positivity is a shining light
Davide
Read your post... you've handled this all remarkably well. I can imagine it doesn't feel that way always but it sounds like you're on track. I think your approach in the email where you validate but then pivot should be the technique you use when broaching any of these 'hard/awkward convo's'. It's unpleasant but necessary to discuss. Your W probably has similar questions, so you raising this ( car house finances etc) will help her as well.
Thanks folks. I feel like I have been handling things relatively well. When I am down and struggling like today I try to reach our here.
The phone call worries me because I want to avoid pursuit but I also want to be friendly and cheerful. I would always ask a friend how things are going before getting to the point of a call, but I can see how that might be a loaded question here. I also just do not trust my instincts.
I understand your concern with the call. Please don't be too hard on yourself. You're doing really great. I think be natural - ask how she's doing....be yourself but know the boundaries....
I remember in the beginning, I would over analyze everything and wondered if this was pursuit or if this was too cold, and if I did this would it be wrong.
I get it, you don't want to f#$k up, but you also need to relax a little bit.
As Sandi says - think that you're talking to the cashier at the grocery store. How would you talk to them and treat them? Do the same here.
So, I wouldn't worry about saying something polite and light - how are you doing? remember you can ask that cashier the same thing because you're not fishing for information, but just being polite and friendly. Do exactly that.
I wouldn't keep on going but keep it short and polite and then get into what you need to talk about. Let's play out a convo here for an example.
You: Hey, how are you doing? (friendly polite tone and being upbeat)
W: I am okay
You: Great. Let's sit down and discuss (insert topic).. (stay upbeat and positive)
That's all you need. Don't over think it. If she goes into R talks, just actively listen and validate.
Also, don't say "could you". that's submissive and weak.
Say something like "As I am taking the car this summer, please make sure it's tuned up. Thanks". Stay upbeat and positive in your tone. You're not asking her, but telling her what you state you need the car to be in.
Achieve the balance between assertive and being pleasant. It's all about the tone and choice of words. Don't ask her to do something, but tell her what you expect to get done, in a polite manner.
She may not like it, and she may even get pissed off, but keep your cool and maintain that assertiveness. She'll come to respect it.
I know this is hard. I would be cool on the outside and a hot boiling mess on the inside. But once I realized how awesome it felt to be assertive and pleasant, and how empowering it was for me, I loved it.
Thanks Maika, Max, and everyone else.
I just needed confirmation. I really do feel like I know what I am doing at this point. Assertive and pleasant will be a struggle for me - that is not my personality. I will attempt it, but I know that I will fall back on "could" language. Baby steps.
The hard part is that I have to accept and act as if she is gone, well aware that there is an over 80% chance that there will never be reconciliation at the end of the tunnel, no matter how I play it. That I have no control over the future of the relationship, just over myself. I look at it as if my worst fears of abandonment have already come true (because they have!) and I'm still standing, and actually stronger than before because I realize my own two feet can sustain me without needing to rely on her.
I also try to look on the positive side. My wife's waywardness is tame compared to many. No affair. She isn't drinking at all. She has become more dedicated to exercise and fitness. There is no hostility, or rancor towards me. She accepts responsibility for the failure of the relationship completely. Moreover, when she asked for space I spent a day crying and pleading and then immediately gave it to her. I didn't know about DBing but I realized I was doing more harm than good around her. I haven't really lapsed at all in 5 weeks. She was never very disrespectful to me. The worst she ever did was go out with friends and return late (2-3 a.m) forgetting to text (it was clearly rebellion), and I called her out on it. I don't consider her BD disrespectful. She has every right to end the relationship if she chooses. I think she is making a bad choice in the throes of an MLC, mistaking temporary unhappiness for a lifetime of incompatibility, but that isnt disrespect.
Have you read Robert Glover's book - No More Mr. Nice Guy? Sounds like you have it. Don't worry - so many of us here do including me. Once I read that and started really doing some introspective work and learning about boundaries, it helped me immensely.
My 0.2 cents - I think BD is very disrespectful. I understand yo don't see it that way. I don't think we're entitled to anything. I know life is unfair. But, BD is disrespectful because there is so much trust in that partnership. You believe they got your back. To not given a chance; to not work on it; to not even get help - all of it is disrespectful. In fact, disrespect is one of the foundations of BD.
So, yeh, she doesn't owe you anything cuz life doesn't owe you anything, but a commitment has value and weight. If it didn't, then what's the point of it all?
Don't minimize what happened to you by rationalizing that life is unfair and that she can do what she wants. You have value and she did some seriously disrespectful $hit.
btw - you can download a free pdf copy of that book by searching online - No More Mr. Nice Guy
Maika,
I'll check out the book. It certainly applies to me.
You have an interesting perspective on the BD. Do you think it would be more respectful to go to MC for two years slowly growing more apart and then separating? Is it the suddenness that is disrespectful? I certainly found it unfair in the sense that I was committed to making it work come hell or high water. But, at the same time, mired in my own depression I wasn't doing anything to make it work. I certainly think I deserved better. (tbh we did a few weeks of MC before the BD but it seemed post-mortem to me in the sense that she had already given up.) and I know she agrees with me. She told me that I deserve someone who loves me, but she doesnt feel like she can be that person anymore.
I think part of my problem is that I am overly empathetic. I can see it from her point of view. She has been unhappy because of the codependency in our relationship for a year, and because of her own MLC. But she doesnt know how to address it and doesnt see that she has options short of the nuclear "blow it up" button. She probably tried a lot of options earlier that I was blind to because of my own issues. She didnt see any options other than a lifetime of a loveless marriage or the possibility of starting anew. I get that. When I was mired in my own depression I couldnt see other options at all, that is what depression does to you. I didnt want to be like that but I couldnt see a way out.
Her blowing up the relationship definitely had the desired effect, but for me. It changed my world so drastically that it made me realize that I could stand on my own two feet. That I actually had some power. Doing the work with my IC, and my exercise, and my GALing, I have taken control of my life in a way that I didnt even think possible two months ago. I dont know if it is doing the same for her or not.
I hear you, you are empathetic, you care for her and love her.
I guess part of this break is about turning off the lens into her world, her depression unhappiness etc. Its focusing the lens on you. It s a chance to tip the scales get the balance right.
Davide- Self reflection is one of the hardest things that one can do but I can say it is also one of the things, that if done right can amount to incredible growth. Stay well!
Yeh, the NGS book is really insightful, as most folks here suffer from some aspects of the nice guy syndrome.
About BD - listen, we're all human and many of us were depressed and unhappy. It's not an excuse because we didn't step outside the MR or bring it to an end abruptly. We should've gotten help earlier on, but we didn't for many reasons. For me it was that I thought I could overcome all obstacles by myself and I didn't recognize I was in some serious depressive $hit and not acknowledging trauma from other life experiences.
I don't think it makes sense to go to MC unless both parties are rolling up their sleeves and working on the MR. MC should bring you closer and away from separation. I think that a commitment to work on the MR would be the appropriate response - go IC, and MC, and start building the MR together.
Your W seems to be doing what many do - blame the MR for all the problems and think that getting away from it will magically solve their problems. Guess what? It doesn't because their diagnosis of the problems is incorrect in terms of blaming the MR and their partner. The problems are within themselves and they need to address them. I know the serious issues my W has and they existed prior to us getting married, and she has to work on them. So her blaming and leaving me gets her nowhere in terms of becoming a whole healthy person again - the kicker is that if she had gone the IC/MC route, taken accountability and worked with me, we would be stronger. But she chose a different route.
Sounds like your W did MC to placate you - I did everything I could do.. but that's not the right attitude. She wasn't interested in fixing things, but having another reason that she was right in leaving. It's bull$hit.
Also, she can't have tried other options by herself. You can try to do things in a MR to fix it if you don't communicate to your partner and work with them. My W said the same thing and I scratched my head because I had no idea about her version of the problems. You can't fix it yourself, and that's why it's a partnership.
It's good to be empathetic, but not at the cost to your own sanity and self-care. I have empathy for my W and her issues, but I can't do anything about it - she needs to get help. it's like an addict - you can have empathy, but you can't make them clean.
So, don't use your empathy as an excuse to not do the work. Read that book and see if your empathy isn't self-serving and a covert contract. I am not trying to make you feel bad, but recognize what you're doing and go deeper within yourself to unearth the roots of your behavior. Trust me, it's worth it because once you recognize why you do something, even if it's an instinctual thing, you'll realize you developed that pattern of behavior due to something and it isn't just a 'natural' thing you do. Explore this with your IC and if they're worth the money, they'll help you figure it out.
So, don't use your empathy as an excuse to not do the work. Read that book and see if your empathy isn't self-serving and a covert contract. I am not trying to make you feel bad, but recognize what you're doing and go deeper within yourself to unearth the roots of your behavior. Trust me, it's worth it because once you recognize why you do something, even if it's an instinctual thing, you'll realize you developed that pattern of behavior due to something and it isn't just a 'natural' thing you do. Explore this with your IC and if they're worth the money, they'll help you figure it out.
I am absolutely not using my empathy as an excuse not to do the work. All I have done for the past 3 weeks is "the work." To me that means taking care of myself. It means strengthening my body and mind. It means exercising, watching my diet. It means doing yoga and meditating. It means sitting with my emotions, identifying them, labeling them, and trying to let them go. It means having a mantra to turn to to break the repetitive cycle of negative thoughts. It means reading these boards for tips and to see the patterns. It means talking with my IC about my issues. I have read "The Divorce Remedy" (great) "Getting past your Breakup" (good), "A Man's Guide to Civilized Divorce" (legal and not on point for me), "It TaAlso, she can't have tried other options by herself. You can try to do things in a MR to fix it if you don't communicate to your partner and work with them. My W said the same thing and I scratched my head because I had no idea about her version of the problems. You can't fix it yourself, and that's why it's a partnership.
kes One to Tango" (excellent), "Love Me Dont Leave Me" (very good but repetitive) and am about to start "The Passion Paradox" and "The Solo Partner". I am looking at my self-destructive patterns, and working on how to change them (Love Me Dont Leave Me is good for this). I feel 200% stronger than I was two months ago, better now alone than I was for the last year while with my W.
Also, she can't have tried other options by herself. You can try to do things in a MR to fix it if you don't communicate to your partner and work with them. My W said the same thing and I scratched my head because I had no idea about her version of the problems. You can't fix it yourself, and that's why it's a partnership.
I am going to disagree with you on this one. It Takes One to Tango makes a very persuasive argument that a relationship is a system and that it is possible and at times necessary for one person to unilaterally introduce change into the system, change that will necessarily affect the system as a whole. Isn't that what we do in DBing as well? We are the lighthouse, we do the 180's - we introduce our own version of change in an attempt to change the system unilaterally. It doesnt always work. Nothing does.
In any case, I am afraid that this comes off as overly aggressive. I absolutely love and appreciate your thoughts Maika. They make me think in interesting ways, and challenge my preconceptions.
I am going to disagree with you on this one. It Takes One to Tango makes a very persuasive argument that a relationship is a system and that it is possible and at times necessary for one person to unilaterally introduce change into the system, change that will necessarily affect the system as a whole. Isn't that what we do in DBing as well? We are the lighthouse, we do the 180's - we introduce our own version of change in an attempt to change the system unilaterally. It doesnt always work. Nothing does.
Let me explain what I mean in more clear terms. I wrote this in response to something you had mentioned about that your W must have 'tried' to do things to improve the MR, but you were either too depressed or didn't see it. I'll give it to you from my own experience.
My W said she tried to 'improve' things in the MR over a period of time. But, guess what? I had no idea that those 'problems' existed for her, and definitely no idea that she was 'trying' to change things up to make it better. My comment refers to the fact that one partner cannot unilaterally try to improve the MR without communication and partnership. If there are sexual issues in the relationship, it's not going to magically just get solved by one partner changing their behavior. Both parties have to actively work together on it.
Your point about one person introducing change to a system unilaterally is absolutely true - hence BD. I have no qualms with that. What I am saying is that change can be introduced, but it has to lead to an active partnership at some level to address the issue. Yeh, you're doing 180s to get to a place where you feel better about yourself and that she is seeing those changes - but that in itself won't magically solve your MR problems. The 180s and the change that's introduced by one person brings the balance back and creates a positive fertilized environment to then improve the MR. You're not going to improve your MR by doing 180s directly. The 180s and other DB stuff allows the creation of the positive environment. Hope I am making sense.
So yeh, your W may have been trying to improve the MR by doing something, but that something doesn't matter if she doesn't communicate it to you at some point to recognize the problem and then come up with solutions together. She could've been doing 180s till the cows came home but if you never noticed or she didn't talk to you about it, it's useless. So, to think that doing 180s and other DB stuff is going to turn the ship around is not exactly true. It facilitates the opportunity for recon, which then is a whole other ballgame - check out piecing threads to get an idea of what's to come if you reach recon. Hint - it's not easy.
In any case, I am afraid that this comes off as overly aggressive.
Haha! Just reading this makes me think very strongly that you got NGS - don't take it as an insult, just giving a diagnosis and there is a cure. It wasn't aggressive at all and I am certainly not an infallible advice guru. Just because I've been on this journey longer doesn't mean you don't get to disagree or challenge my thinking. It's actually healthy because contestation provides great space for productive approaches and creative solutions.
For the NGS - how are you at managing or dealing with conflict? I'd look into that for sure.
You've read a lot of books and there's just tons of info being thrown at you. My only advice is that slow down and gauge what's going on. Do it daily. You have time on your side and there is no rush. So take advantage of that.
Good on the GAL and putting in the work for yourself. You are definitely not idling by on the sidelines. Keep it up!
Maika,
To be really honest, I have a lot of internal resistance to the NGS book. There is a lot of sexist BS surrounding it that I do not find appealing at all. I will give it a shot but I am not down for male chauvinism in any form. I am conflict-averse to a huge degree, and have long recognized that is an issue and pattern that is holding me back.
I also realize that I am rushing through this, as if I could speed up the process. That is clearly not the case, and I know it. Sometimes the illusion of activity is much easier than the uncomfortable stillness of residing in my emotions.
Quick check-in with folks here about calling my W tomorrow. I have a list of things to talk about with her, but I feel like some of them might be pushing her to make decisions that she isn't ready for. My original thought is that I wanted to get these out of the way so that I could go fully dark once I leave on my trip in 3 weeks (leaving for 2 full months). I'd love some feedback on whether or not I am pushing too much.
1) Things I actually do need to communicate with her about now - getting the car ready, checking on supplies for my trip, letting her know when I am leaving and coming to pack, letting her know when I will be getting back (so she can leave).
2) Things I want to get settled, but might be pushing it -- making a list of what she wants to take from the house, making a budget for her to get a car.
3) Things that could cause conflict - letting her know that I expect the dog (more or less our joint baby) to stay in the house with me when she leaves. This might also be important for her to know when searching for apartments.
Should I just leave the latter two elements, and let her bring them up when she is ready?
Davide,
Yeh, there's tons of stuff out there that is macho sexist BS masquerading as reclaiming masculinity. I know what you mean. I tend to steer away from that nonsense because it's just regressive garbage.
NGS book is not that. I think it provides a really good roadmap to do introspection and it's not about becoming some masculine dudebro.
I wouldn't have recommended it if I thought it was outdated nonsense. It asks good questions and provides insightful examples from real life.
If you're a conflict avoider, this isn't the only book for that. But, I think that men in heterosexual relationships have forgotten to achieve the balance between being wholesome healthy men and being involved partners/parents. This book is about creating that.
I'd at least give it a good read and think about it before discarding it altogether. There are other books on the market right now, and I won't mention the author because it's absolute trash and he's gaining a lot of attention.
Anyways, it's your journey and you're in charge. I'm just giving you my take.
btw, you can talk about all three things you mentioned because it's business. Just handle it with being assertive and pleasant. If it's easier for you to just start with one so that you can gain more confidence having these convos, then pick the most important one now and tackle that.
Makia,
Thanks. I trust you as much as you can trust an anonymous stranger on a message board. I will check out the book.
If you have any recommendations for reading regarding conflict aversion, I'd be happy to hear them as well.
Regarding the call to my wife, I know none of those topics are pursuit, they are all business. My only question is if I should just let her take the lead and contact me on the latter items. Am I pushing her or making things easier for her, when it really should be her reaching out to me about them.
Also, can I put out a call for a Sandi 2x4? I could really use the WW perspective.
Just in terms of journaling, today was a great day. 8 a.m. yoga. Then biked to the mall and dropped about 400 dollars on new clothes (I never shop, so this is a huge 180 for me) for summer. Then biked over the climbing gym and got a good workout in there. Then another ride home - just over 18 miles in all, much of it with a backpack stuffed full of new clothing!
Went out to the neighborhood bar last night to watch the basketball game and just get out. Unfortunately I ran into a couple who was friendly with my W and I, more with my wife than I. It was incredibly awkward. The husband, seemingly free from the previous ties that bound us, ignored me for the first half hour and then was barely cordial when I went over and said hello. It was definitely a trigger for me, so I finished my drink and took off.
Any last words of advice on talking to the W today?
So my W just texted me to tell me that she will be out all day if I want to go visit the dog, and that she will text when she gets back so that we can talk.
This bugs me a lot because I told her that I would call her at 5 p.m, and now I imagine she will get back whenever she pleases (likely later). I'm not sure if I should just go along as part of the detaching and letting go of control over her, or if I should stand up for myself because I find it disrespectful. I want to go into this conversation positive and comfortable, but this is a bad start.
I would reschedule for a different day
So yeah, I waited for her to text me - 7:45, and then told her that I couldn't talk tonight, that I would call her between 9 and 9:30 tomorrow. Now she has texted me a bunch of silly logistical questions.
My question now is whether or not I should call her out for being disrespectful (not being available at the agreed-on time, or at least telling me before this morning that she wouldn't be) or just letting it go. This plays right into the dynamic we had before in our relationship where she would constantly arrive late and push my buttons. Is it better just to detach and let this go? Or should it be a boundary that I set with her? I really dunno.
I just got off the phone with the W. That was rough. Really hard. That is the first time we have spoken since I went NC. The first time we have EVER spoken without talking about the R.
She started by asking how I was, and I gave her an upbeat, chipper "good" but nothing more. I asked her how she was doing and she said "so-so", and there was a wavering in her voice. I then dove right into the particulars and logistics. I need to borrow the car tomorrow (1st time since I left the house 6 weeks ago) and I just told her I was picking it up early in the morning and would return it late in the evening so she needed to make other plans to get to the gym (she always goes climbing on Tuesdays). No resistance.
The hardest part was talking to her about her buying a new car this summer. Spending 10 grand on a car seems like a sure sign that her head is still right out the door. But whatever. I also told her to make a list of things she wanted to take from the house. Finally I told her that I wanted the dog to stay in the house with me. I phrased it like that rather than framing it as better for the dog, or fair, or anything else - just straightforward what I wanted to happen. She didn't resist at all, but said that was what she figured.
I quickly wrapped up and asked her if she had any questions for me. She asked about a doctor's visit (which I cancelled) and I just told her it was all good. Then I said goodbye and hung up.
I feel like I did everything right, or damn close to it. But it was still painful as hell. We have only spoken 4 times in the 6 weeks since we separated. I can feel myself detaching, but conversations like this are still so hard. When talking about the car I realized that I still desperately didn't want her to buy one. That it just seemed like a symbolic step out of the relationship. When she mentioned that it would be easier for her to get an apartment without the dog, it stung as well. I wasn't reactive at all, totally in control of my outward emotions, but it was crushing inside.
She has yet to even say the D word out-loud to me. But it seems so clear that she is out on this relationship. I get how early in the process I am, but she is stubborn, the most stubborn person I know, and I have a hard time imagining her changing her mind. Perhaps when she is the one out of the house, out of her comfort zone, away from the beloved dog, she will have some sort of awakening. Who knows?
I realize that I need to focus on myself. And I am proud of myself for the way I handled the call. I was cheerful, to the point, and assertive.
I have an appointment tomorrow with the author of "The Solo Partner" who is an IC and MC. I don't know if he can give me any further insights, but I look forward to picking his brain after reading the book.
Well done- I can assure you I have the same feelings when I talk with W. It is an ongoing process. Keep strong- Stay well!!
Sounds like you handled it well. The first few times will be nerve-wracking, but the more you stand you for yourself, be assertive, it will not only get easier and you'll feel better, but you'll realize how the hell did you live before and let people not treat you well. Not saying you're being walked over by people, but you're a massive conflict-avoider and my guess is that your conflict style is very passive and just taking $hit from people because you think standing up for yourself is too much confrontation.
Let us know how the IC session goes.
You're doing good!
You handled it very well
It is a good thing she didnt mention D
These things take time
Now let it go and focus on you again
Maybe start a research based hobby to distract your mind
So, the IC I saw last night was a major flop. I came in having already processed all the ideas from the book and knowing what I was doing in terms of DBing (GAL, 180s, NC, etc...) I told him that I wanted to explore the relationship dynamics (pursuit and distance) as they specifically applied to my case, especially mixed with the depression that both I and the W suffered from. He really didn't have much to add that I hadn't already gleaned from the book. He kept saying things like I was a good guy that wasn't into porn or alcohol. It was a little bizarre. By halfway through it became clear that we were operating on very different levels and that I wasn't getting much out of the session. Oh well. I'll eat the 50 dollar copay.
In terms of hobbies, yeah, I need to work on that. Basically all I do right now is exercise (bike, yoga, rock-climb, walk) read (lots of self-help, relationship stuff, but also fiction), socialize, and watch netflix. I might try writing a short "novel" for 2nd language learners. I have been meaning to to do that for a while.
Today I received and email from a pair of students who I coached over a decade ago. It was so sweet and thoughtful that I burst out in tears and had to leave the building to collect myself. It is strange how susceptible I am to kind gestures like that. I think it is a matter of having all of my emotions closer to the surface. I think it also a sign that I am starved for affection and compassion.
Davide, It only goes to show you that you are valued in others peoples eyes. After the BD I often question my value and self worth but as you can see you have made other peoples lives better. Keep on going!!!Stay well!!
I second LoneWlf here, and add that if you dig deeper, you will find that your issues are about self-worth. This is common with people who are hard conflict-avoiders because they don't want to rock the boat about what other people think of them, which is to maintain the little self-worth that external validation can bring.
Here, you have a group of students that showed you that you have value as a person and you have a lot to offer. I used to react that way too back in the day because I felt that I didn't bring anything to the table really - it was on a subconscious level and so digging deep helped me figure that out. Your emotional response to this says so much and listen to it and see what you can glean from it.
Sorry about the IC. sounds terrible. I think DBing has put you on a good path of healing, but a good IC will help more with the introspection and uncovering hidden roots of your emotions and behaviors. We're not psychologists here so we can't help with that.
As someone who shared similar traits as you, I'll tell you what helped me and is still helping me:
1. Emotional regulation and intelligence: recognizing and naming the emotions I was feeling and taking a step back to really feel it and then try and understand where it's coming from.
2. Becoming more assertive: helped me with conflict management and also not putting my needs on the side and minimizing myself.
3. Making a list of my failures and successes and putting that into context of life circumstances. When I did that, I realized that my failures weren't due to just my flaws, but in the context that I was operating, I did the best I could.
4. That last point leads to this one - self compassion: I learned to be more compassionate towards myself and I stopped beating myself up for past failures and current failures. I accepted that I was not perfect and failures are a part of life. But instead of using the failures to berate myself, I turned it around to understand why it happened and how could I improve. I turned into a lessons learned kinda perspective. The only caution with self-compassion is that if you let it go too far it just justifies procrastination and not doing things. For example, if I missed a workout, in the past I would just punish myself and say that I was not a dedicated organized and motivated person and that I won't achieve my goals, and I Would give up working out for the rest of the week. Now, when I miss a workout, I think about why that happened and if I can change the situation to make it more conducive to working out. And then I revise my plan, and focus on the next workout instead of giving up. So, I am practicing self-compassion, but not letting it lead to failure and giving up.
I hope that helps!
Makia,
Great insights as always!
I am seeing an IC online already and plan on continuing it. This was a one-off visit to see if he could help me better understand the relationship dynamics. But you are right that effective counseling is very helpful. That said, to be honest, I have learned more here and on my own by reading extensively than I have from therapy.
I think your last point is extremely pertinent to my situation. I have struggled my entire life with self-compassion. I have a fierce inner critic and have insanely high standards for myself. It has led to depression and feelings of inferiority for much of my life. I am definitely working on strategies to counter that and am hopeful that I am making some progress. It is an issue that I have raised with my IC and I know we will be talking about it. Ultimately, I think that is at the root of most of the issues that I have with assertiveness, emotional regulation and the like - the feeling of perpetually not living up to one's standards is incredibly dispiriting and pernicious.
That said, I just finished a phone interview for a possible new job, and I nailed it. Who knows if I will get an offer, but I was confident, assertive, on-point, and answered all their questions with specific and pertinent examples. It was quite the rush when I got off the phone.
Ahh yes!! The fierce inner critic. You are speaking my language bro! I know EXACTLY what you mean.
The thing is, I didn't change my standards, but I changed how to approach and think about them. Back in the day, my inner critic would tell me that I was disorganized, unmotivated, and didn't have it in me to accomplish the goal. And that would totally deflate me because it would hit up against my self-worth. The other aspect was that I was secretly afraid of failing to reach my standards. But, if I didn't really try to meet them, I could still punish myself through my inner critic and keep the cycle of self-victimization going. Even though it was bad, it was actually comforting because I just fulfilled how I perceived myself and I could feel sorry for myself.
But, I changed all of that up.
I still have an inner fierce critic, but I changed what I did with that voice. Instead of focusing that critic on me, I focused it on the situation. So, taking the workout example again, I didn't berate myself for being disorganized or unmotivated, but asked myself why did this happen? Have I scheduled my workout during a time of day that doesn't work? Am I too tired during that time of day?
I also had in my head the idea that there is a 'perfect' way to do things. So, for example, according to my 'perfect' plan - you wake up early and workout and start your day. If you didn't do it that way, you couldn't do it. I didn't even explore the idea that maybe I could do it in a different time of the day.
So, I went into 'experimentation' mode. I gave myself full permission to try things out and see if it failed or succeeded. And then analyze it and see which contextual factors allowed the greatest degree of success. I also let myself go of the 'perfect' plan idea. My goal was to workout and get healthy, so it didn't matter if I did it in the morning, afternoon, or evening, as long as I was working out. If I did it in the evening, that wouldn't matter as it wasn't the 'perfect' plan, but I actually achieved my goal of working out which was more important than the 'perfect' plan.
So, I started working out in the evenings and I realized that I wasn't still consistent. So, I analyzed why. The reasons were - I was way too tired than I anticipated in the evening; I was rushing my evening time with the kids instead of spending more quality time with them - which was of higher priority; and I was pushing my bedtime to much later which affected my sleep schedule.
Instead of telling myself that I was a failure, I looked at the factors that were not enabling my habit, and also in conflict with my other priority - spending more time with the kids.
So, now I am back to trying the early morning workout routine. But I won't jump back into it right away. My first goal is to wake up at 5AM consistently for a week and get that down. And then I will start working out once I am able to wake up in that time. I gave myself a very low threshold of success - just waking up at 5AM. Not waking up at 5AM, meditating for 15 mins, working out, reading etc etc. Just waking up and getting that success under my belt. And then add another thing.
Turn your fierce inner critic from you, and move it towards the context. And then see which factors enable the best out of you and how you can tweak it. Go experiment.
Good on the phone interview for a new job! Best of luck.
Yeah, I can't do 5 a.m. I am up at 5:30 for 6 a.m. hot yoga 3 days a week and I am pretty happy with myself. without kids I have time to exercise in the afternoons as well. Plus I am biking 15 or so miles roundtrip to and from work. Good on you, though.
I actually already got a call back on the job interview. They want me to come in person tomorrow afternoon. I already had the day off, so it is perfect. It does mean I will have to interact with the W to borrow the car (again) at the last second. Tough [censored] for her.
Sounds like you have a system set that works for you. Why upset a good thing
Good luck on the call back. I hope it's something that works out. Put all the positives in a pile and see how it starts stacking up.
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