Was told to post a new thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2788542&page=1To bring you up to speed.
Together 21 years. Married 18.
Kids 14 and 11. I'm 51 W is 44.
Marriage spiraled out of control over the last couple of years due to huge financial crisis culminating in bankruptcy, foreclosure, etc. We didn't have anyone so we ended up taking it out on each other for the most part. W has serious health issues that we deal with daily. Believe she is in a MLC and a WW as well.
She is still presently dead set on leaving.
Working on myself and the DB steps vigilantly.
I am not a saint and own my part in our issues. Hoping she will eventually see the light and realize our MR is worth her time so we can focus and have a better life than ever together.
I will post more as it happens....
Best I can say about yesterday is that I didn't take the bait, did stand up for myself and was slightly humored at my W's roller coaster.
Came home and went upstairs to change for my run. I looked good (wore one of my new suits that actually fit). Got 5 compliments that day on how good I looked as well. My D even commented and I used the word "snazzy". So W must have noticed as that was what I was wearing when she got in the room. I simply asked how her day was and how her health was that day. She paused, looked at me, and said "why are you so concerned about my health?" " are you keeping a diary of my good/bad days?" This kind of came out of no where as she has had chronic issues for almost a decade and I usually ask how her day was health wise so I can just genuinely see how she is. I told her I was not keeping track of anything. She said that she felt I was going to use this in trying to get custody of our kids. I stated that through our discussions that we had already decided we were going to do 50/50 custody and as far as I was concerned, other than asking how her health was to see how she is, I had no ulterior motive, nor do I have a desire to keep the children away from their mother any more than we agreed. She then went on to comment on the Friday incident, which in her mind is totally being rewritten day by day and is now a full fledged issue of boundary violations and me attempting to take advantage of her by putting her in that situation. She said "after our talk on Saturday, you didn't even say you were sorry". I stated that I apologized if she felt uncomfortable, that she froze and that it all happened. I will not apologize or say that I am sorry for truly trying to help her feel better by giving her a massage. I also stated that she was an adult, a willing participant, that I spoke when I did anything, and she was capable of stopping it at any time if she felt uncomfortable. From my perspective, she was not. Afterwards she said she hadn't been that relaxed and relieved of pain in a long time. She slept very well that night, in the same bed as myself, and as usual in her underwear. If you were uncomfortable, felt violated, disrespected, whatever word you want to choose, WHY would you continue to do that? She kept trying to escalate the discussion and I ended it. Said we could talk later, but right now I'd like to go for a run.
A few hours later, down on the couch, she starts in again. This time about how I never said I was sorry again. Again, I told her I apologized that she felt the way she did. I couldn't apologize for doing absolutely nothing wrong, communicating with her along the way, helping her feel better by relieving her pain and relaxing, and helping us connect just a little. Here is where I think the real issue is. That we connected. She is HATING this and is doing all she can do deny and discredit what happened. It was innocent enough, no romance, no sensuality, nothing like that at all, but it was 2 people physically connecting and relaxing. The only was she can deny this is to make it out to be a bad situation and I am the bad guy that took advantage of her. She is a grown woman! I did ask her why she didn't stop it if she was uncomfortable. She said "I should have". I said what would you have done if I would have "made a move" or done something inappropriate? Her answer "I would have kicked your A$$"." Ok, so nothing inappropriate happened, I did not act out of line, I helped you relax, and you were a willing participant and even commented on how well it felt afterwards. Now still 3 days later you are revising your story each day making it worse?
To me, again, attempting to rewrite recent history to her benefit.
She went on to discuss how I haven't done anything to move the D forward. I countered with "I sent you the mediation documents that you asked for and haven't heard a thing from you" She said, we should do it together. Why? I agree we need to work together to get this done (if that is the way it is going to go) but you can put notes together and we can communicate throughout.
She stated that she has this big feeling in the pit of her stomach that she is just going to get screwed all the way around on this. Didn't say this to her, but thought" No [censored]. This is not going to be fun. You haven't worked in 15 years, think its going to be a breeze to just pop out there and add in a full time job while taking care of 2 kids (half the time) , your health issues and a home. You haven't paid bills in 20 years or managed money EVER. You haven't had a utility bill in your name in 20 years. This is going to be way more difficult than you think.) For myself, I am not delusional. This is going to totally suck! But I am fairly prepared and working everyday to improve and do better for myself and my children.
Funny thing. I had a couple of medical tests done myself. She asked how they were. I told her everything was fine and not to worry about it. This was during the same conversation about me "prying" into her medical issues and seeing how she was. She said that she would like to be informed. I simply stated that she had just requested that I not pry, why not extend the same courtesy? My issues are my issues. Her response was, if you have cancer or something serious, I would like to know. I stated that it wouldn't matter, that the situation is still the way it is. She then said "I would change and wouldn't leave if it was something like that. I would not strand you after all you have stood by me through all of my issues". VERY strange to me.
Thoughts, feedback...
She stated that she has this big feeling in the pit of her stomach that she is just going to get screwed all the way around on this
Red flag, here. Women say this as a way of softening the man. She wants him to assure her he won't do......"whatever". It's her sutle way of guilting him, if he tries to take up for himself in the S/D. She knows he has every right to be legally fair, but she is self entitled and still wants him to treat her as such. It's just more self entitled b.s.
She is going to stick it to you every way possible, and still expect you to give her more.
This is all the pursuit game. You have begun to do a good job of detaching and it is unsettling to her. You really need to hold the line on all of this. Especially her part of the D. She is wanting you do all the work. Classic WAW move. What WAWs would really like to say is: "I want a divorce. Call me when it is over."
In my sitch, after my wife stated her grand plan of getting a job, getting an apartment and getting a D, her hope, and she pretty much admitted it, was that I would agree to the D, and start the process. That would push her to do the first 2 parts of her plan. When I made it clear that I was morally and principally opposed to divorce and would be doing nothing to move it along, that was the first popping of her balloon. She knew a contested divorce would be a lot more work for her than she was willing to put into it. Likely your wife is the same. After all, her actions are speaking so much louder than words! She is doing nothing to find a job? She is doing nothing to find another place to live? She is doing nothing to move forward with the D.
And like everything else in her life she doesn't follow through on she blames you for it!
And you are right. She obviously felt safe on Friday night. She trusted you. AND she felt connected to you. And all three of those were counter to what she wanted to feel, but it wasn't until the next day that she realized it! And when she did she got angry at herself, but as with all of the above she blames you. That is what WAWs/WWs do, they blame the LBH for all of the things they don't like, even things that are fully in their own control.
Keep up the good work. I see two things happening:
1) I see you getting closer and closer to moving on from her every day.
2) I see her panicking about you getting closer and closer to moving on from her every day.
#2 comes out in very contradictory ways. Because she has convinced herself she doesn't want/need you, but the minute you start to move on it scares her. The fear causes her to try and do things to move you back into her realm of control. She then feels yucky for violating her own proclamation on what she said she wants, so she lashes out.
What you see is a very childish "GO AWAY GO AWAY GO AWAY. COME HERE. COME HERE. COME HERE." Thus: "Stop asking about MY health. But oh by the way, how is your health?"
Logic? Reason? WAWs/WWs have no use for such things. Even when you point out their contradictions they can't see it.
Thanks Sandi2 and that is what I agree.
The conversations are going to be avoided as much as possible and the ones we have I am going to remain on topic. I did tell her again that this is her choice.
She does know who I am and that if we get there, I will draw a line, if it is then crossed, it will result in us just turning it over to attorneys. Not what I want, but she does know that I am not afraid of using the rest of our resources to fight for what I believe is right (or wrong). I'd rather us agree, compromise as best we can, realize that neither of us is going to walk away unscathed.
The feeling in the pit of her stomach is also the fact that somewhere in her mind, she knows this is the VERY worst thing she can do for herself. She has made up her mind and is determined to see it through so she can see what life is like out there. I love her and always will. I will not be taken advantage of, I am not angry (any longer), I am truly what my name says, just sad at the situation, how it is going to affect ALL (kids and dogs included) of us and our lives.
We will survive, in different ways.
My W accused me of being narcicistic yesterday afternoon as well. Thought that was funny as well.
Thanks again Sandi2. I appreciate the input. I do think we are kind of moving from checkers to chess. No more dancing around, just strategy and time.
One other observation: It appears she is looking for an excuse to change her mind without looking like she WANTS to stay. Likely our changes have her second guessing her proclamation but it means that she was wrong in her proclamation. So instead she is looking for a "I didn't want to stay, but JustSad needed me for a huge reason, like cancer!"
That shows a chink in her armor.
You guys are great!
I love the feedback and observations. Thank you so much!
Still not going to take the bait!!!
W took her vehicle to get an oil change and tire rotation today. She has always asked prior to this. Her vehicle isn't due it for another 4k miles (oil change) and 8k for the tire rotation.
She just texted and said "hey, I used all the money in the joint account for servicing the car".
My reply. "ok".
Money is tight right now and this is the button she is trying to push. She wants the anger to come out. Really, I just think its laughable as I think she is realizing she won't be able to keep the vehicle anyway! Don't care as long as its out of my name...
And thanks again for the comments.. Yes, she is going to try to milk me for as long as she can for as much as she can. That train has sailed... And the cancer thing, I just don't know what to say about that. I have stood by her through a decade of issues (gladly, frustrated at times, but stood by her!) and this is her comment regarding that.
Roller coaster crazy! This ride is not for me. I am going to sit by, DB and I will not be baited into anything. If she does ever decide to refocus, it will be a different world. I will not nor would I ever "hold" her current decision against her. I would rather put it behind us and move forward together. Together or apart, I am working on my stuff and making sure my kids are ok. As much as she thinks she has it together, I don't think she has come close to hitting bottom or crashing yet. I do not wish this upon her at all. If she thrives, I will happy that she is happy. I just feel it coming...
Hopefully a quiet run tonight followed by a quiet evening. Who knows.... I feel like a sit com writer putting out the teaser for the next episode.
TRIED.....
Best laid plans...
D has a field trip next week. W knew about it as I had sent her an email asking about the permission slip earlier yesterday morning. W said she had it all covered and it was on the table. Turns out there was $55 due on this that we had to pay today. I told D to ask mom for a check as I was headed out for a run and I didn't have any checks. W walks in and says "it doesn't matter if I give her a check, you don't put any money into our joint account anyway so there isn't enough there". A little pissed she said this in front of my D, so I did respond poorly and said "I guess your mom's vehicle service was more important for the money even though it was unnecessary and wasn't even due for a few thousand miles". I bowed out and went for my run. Felt bad that both W and I failed by not being united. I felt bad I let her get to me and I lashed out. 10 minutes into my run texted W and said to write the check and I will make sure the money is there in the morning. Got back from my run and asked to speak with my W. She is so cold now about everything! I said that I didn't like the way either of us handled it and I think we can do better. I didn't blame her, took my blame, and apologized for what I did. She shrugged it off, said she didn't have a chance to print out her mediation checklist paperwork and would do it tomorrow.
Weird to me...we all then, as a family, sat down to dinner.
Also, don't know what is happening, but got a few tests back and they are wanting me to come in quickly and are talking about referring and more tests.
Headed there tomorrow. A little worried, but good or bad I have decided this is a challenge for myself alone. Based on my W's comments, I don't want this to be a factor EVER!
W is still adamant about pushing forward at this time. I feel the ride is going to get WAY worse before it gets better either way it goes. I can't stop the train, I can step out of the way before it hits me.
JS, all the crazy stuff your W is doing and saying is pretty much script. Laying there happily accepting a massage and then later trying to use it as ammo against you, that's not at all unusual. She will look for every way possible to make you out to be the bad guy. I would suggest you completely stop ALL physical contact with her. Even if she ASKS for a massage or hug I would respond with "I'm sorry but I don't feel comfortable doing that given our current situation." It sounds like you did the right thing in just listening and validating when she kept bringing it up, so well done on that.
I'm sure sometimes you feel like you must be going crazy with all the mixed signals from her, but that is HER being crazy, not you.
The check thing, that's you letting her pull you down to her level. Next time she tries to bait you like that just remember that you are the ONLY person in the M conducting yourself with dignity and respect. Let her be ridiculous, you remain the rock.
REALLY need feedback and help today.
Again, the best laid plans blew up.
Decent weekend and even asked W is she still wanted to do Mother's day brunch with all of us. Also said if she would rather just do it with the kids, I was ok with that as well.
She opted for the entire family.
So we did our traditional family morning. Mom in bed, gets her coffee early, enjoys her time alone followed by breakfast in bed with her cards. Overall a great time (I got my run in while she was eating so that was good!).
We all got ready and headed to an amazing brunch. 2 1/2 hours in, W starts making remarks to daughter about looking to date college men. She was jovial, but serious and right in front of me, my daughter and son. She saw it affected me greatly. We briefly discussed as our kids went to the restroom. She said, it's no big deal. I countered I thought it was. Ended the brunch, headed home, quiet and somber. At home, got into it a bit and she just reiterated that she is done and moving forward. Then said, do you want to watch a show? I said no, headed up to our room for the evening. A bunch more to this but mostly just argumentative stuff between us that goes on and on and on.
I don't know, other than detaching more and going more dark how to protect myself from this.
PLEASE help with feedback. I tried to make it a good day, and again, took the bait and it ended poorly.
Is there any hope???
I don't know, other than detaching more and going more dark how to protect myself from this.
PLEASE help with feedback. I tried to make it a good day, and again, took the bait and it ended poorly.
Is there any hope???
There is always HOPE.
Don't take the bait again follow your own advice above.
Thank you Cadet!
I know this is a roller coaster. I'm just trying to detach so I can watch the ride instead of being beside and experiencing the full ups and downs!
Your brief comment was totally on point, appreciated and received fully.
I printed out the detachment thread and have read it 3 times between yesterday and this morning.
Much to work on for myself and also the detaching and not getting sucked into, baited and reacting to W's present ride.
REALLY need feedback and help today.
Again, the best laid plans blew up.
I disagree, it didn't blow up at all. The only thing that you let get away from you was your expectations. I remember early on after BD doing things with my ex and thinking that things were better and maybe she had even changed her mind, but then she'd say something to remind me that no, she really was done and it was over. It hurts to hear but just keep in mind that's how she feels NOW. That could change in a few months or a year. But for now she's resolute that leaving is the right thing to do. She will still enjoy family time, they all love their cake-eating. But nothing has changed for her. You did not really do anything wrong, the DB coaches are fond of saying that you should try to "show her what she will miss". Just be careful not to turn it into temp checking or pursuit. Keep stuff like that kid-focused. But when she threw the jab out about dating college guys (at 44 all I can say is "good luck with that") you should have just let it roll off your back. If things get a little chummy she will say stuff like that just to remind you of the true state of things.
Absolutely, just not on the timeline you want. You want to put things "back to normal" right away, but that's just not going to happen. She won't change her views on you and the M for months or maybe even years.
Would you refresh my mind about something, please? You said you were giving it a year before you filed for a D. Is she aware?
I see a lot of behavior in her that is common in WW's who are applying pressure on the H to file for the D, leave the home, or whatever. She will find the negative side to almost everything. She will make inconsiderate statements, just as she made about dating college men. The standards that may have once guided her life......and the role model she tried to be for her children, have been cast aside. She may have thought the 14 year old D would see her as being a cool mom who could get young college guys! Maybe she expected everyone to be as excited for her.....who knows. There are times WW's are just inappropriate.......period.
Resentments, unmet expectations, selfishness, self entitlement, disrespect.........whatever led her into developing a wayward mindset took a little time. It didn't happen overnight (even if it appeared to you that it did). What you are currently seeing is her rebellion. Anyway, she doesn't realize her family is still in shock from her news of wanting to end the M. She acts as if they should be just a well with it as she. That's why her attitude of, "What's the big deal". So, whenever the H expresses any objections to some careless or inappropriate statement or action on her part........she is ready for a fight.
It's one thing to call her hand on being inappropriate or disrespectful, but don't make passive-aggressive statements that's going to lead to an argument. Don't have a discussion about it, b/c it does no good. She will turn it into a argument/fight. If she tries to bring up later, shut it down and say, "No more talk about it".
This is just one of the reasons I don't encourage family traditions or special events within the immediate family when the WW is talking about leaving. The WW will usually (not every time) spoil it before it's over. You were put in a situation where she invited everyone to celebrate Mother's Day, so you felt stuck. One advantage you have with your kids being as old as they are, you can let them plan Mom's birthday or whatever. (Let's see how much she makes over you on Father's Day). Also, the following months might be a good time to change some things around, instead of sticking to traditions. If the kids enjoy it.....and if a divorce should come, then it may help that first year following it. Family traditions are wonderful, until suddenly one, two, or more people are missing from the family........then their absence seems magnified. In less than five years, my family lost so many members, either through divorce or death, that we struggle a lot. When I try to have those traditional family dinners, it can be emotional painful for those of us left. Anyway, do as many activities with just you and the kids, as possible.
((hugs))
Yep detachment is the key here. You are still tying your emotional state to hoping she changes her mind, and then you are disappointed when she shows she hasn't. As AS said, your expectations were all wrong.
Remember, never believe anything she says, and only half of what she does. Saying she is looking to date college guys and actually dating college guys are so far apart it isn't funny. Likely she said it to get a rise out of you. In fact, she probably said it because she started to feel something that was contrary to her "I am done" proclamation at the family brunch. You should take her saying that as a good sign as it shows she was rebelling against her feelings.
JustSad, you said you came home and kept discussing. Then went upstairs after telling her you didn't want to watch a show.
What are you doing to GAL? After brunch was a perfect opportunity to have done something to get a life. Go out somewhere, take one of the kids somewhere, go see a movie yourself, connect with friends (I realize it was Mother's Day so that last one might not have been possible.) Regardless, you needed to get out of the house after her passive-aggressive move at brunch.
We all got ready and headed to an amazing brunch. 2 1/2 hours in, W starts making remarks to daughter about looking to date college men. She was jovial, but serious and right in front of me, my daughter and son. She saw it affected me greatly.
Wow... I would have had a hard time not laughing and saying. "Yeah... Good luck with that Mrs. Robinson"...
I appreciate the input and feedback!
Sandi, I think it was Steve85 who has given the 1 year timeline in his situation.
and YES, I slipped again on Sunday. I have pretty much quit drinking. I have never had an issue, but over the last few years with my wife on so many medications (most that she couldn't mix with alcohol) so we just never did it. When I did on those rare occasions, it was just a few social drinks anyway. But Sunday did have free champagne, my W had a couple and so did I. I believe this did let down my ability to keep myself from reacting and biting my tongue, or as was said "good luck with that" would have been a great one! For someone who can't stay up past 10pm. Cant drink, can't dance, can't work, and has her chronic pain issues, I am VERY unsure what a college age man's interest (beyond the obvious!) would be.
Last evening was quiet.
As far as my GAL part, I am working out much more. Using that time both in the morning (This morning was up at 430 and on the treadmill for 90 minutes prior to getting the kids up and their lunches ready then getting ready for work. In the evening I have kind of done the same thing. Headed out for a 3-5 mile walk/run depending on the day.
On the weekends I take the kids out somewhere and usually the kids and I will do lunch or dinner one of those days out. We are WAY strapped on $$$ right now so I don't feel like getting in the argument or comments on "we have no money how can you go out and spend money" issues.
So I am reading a lot. Working out a lot. And spending as much time with my kids as I can. I believe summer will open up some more possibilities for myself and the kids to do more things. I don't know how my W is going to like the kids being home all day though! Who knows!
Again, I appreciate all of you and your input. You have no idea how much I get from this board and the insight all of you provide. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
Go for a walk then. It is free. If it is cold, dress warm. If it is raining wear raingear. The point is to be out and be busy.
ok.
everyday is an adventure!
So I wasn't snooping. I'm on facebook constantly mostly for work marketing. Just popped over to my W's page as I miss her (she doesn't post much so I wasn't worried about any of that). Just like seeing her face and a smile (torture I know, but I did it). I typed her name up top and just put her first and maiden name in (usually fills in the rest) low and behold I discover she has created a new facebook page using just her first and maiden name. It was 4 days ago and the only post was a sky photo. Just weird. I guess this is normal in this scenario as she is trying to move on. Her friends on there aren't many (I'm sure she can restrict it to who other's see) but right now there are only 2 and they are both friends/family that don't even live here and are providing her emotional support through this.
Trying to not let this bother me as, well, its just facebook!
But it still stings a lot.
Just venting for a moment...
"So I wasn't snooping. I'm on facebook constantly mostly for work marketing. Just popped over to my W's page as I miss her (she doesn't post much so I wasn't worried about any of that)."
You are not being honest with yourself. Checking facebook IS snooping. Since you use it for work my suggestion would be to hide her on facebook. I am not on facebook as I think it is an unholy abomination, but I think there is a way you can hide someone without them knowing, so says my wife.
JustSad, it is so freeing when you stop snooping. I can't tell you how much healthier mentally I feel since I stopped snooping on her 3 months ago now. Snooping only hurts yourself, as you can see if you go back and read your post.
JS, try to avoid her social media stuff. She's trying on her new "singleness" and will probably be posting stuff that is just going to upset you. It's all part of the process, she may eventually snap out of it but there's a lot of potential misery between here and there.
I thank god that my wife closed her facebook account a year ago before all this. I would have been all over that in the weeks before I discovered DB. As it was, I looked at her instagram page once, and then she made it private. I know that was a mistake.
You can ignore someone on facebook without defriending them. That sounds like a plan. I actually did that to a common friend that my W and I are still both close to. He posted pictures of her at a party and then also hiking another weekend. It was just unhealthy to keep looking at that.
I thank god that my wife closed her facebook account a year ago before all this. I would have been all over that in the weeks before I discovered DB. As it was, I looked at her instagram page once, and then she made it private. I know that was a mistake.
You can ignore someone on facebook without defriending them. That sounds like a plan. I actually did that to a common friend that my W and I are still both close to. He posted pictures of her at a party and then also hiking another weekend. It was just unhealthy to keep looking at that.
This board has become a very important part of my GAL, getting advice, feedback, the 2x4's to my head and all the rest that I value so much.
Presently, today, this morning, I am just having one of those surreal mornings. Nothing bad has happened in the last 36 hours which is good. In fact, it has not been "pleasant", but cordial around our home. No deep conversations, just talking about the kids and short other things. No phone calls. VERY few texts. By reading other's situations and the length of time I know this is going to be a long process. I am doing all I can to not avoid, but observe from a distance, the roller coaster ride my wife is on. She is detaching from me on many, many levels but is still cake eating as much as possible. One of the "tests" will be next week. She has a few bills due which I told her that March was the last time I was going to pay them. I did cave and paid April since it was a little quick and am trying to be fair. She wants her new life, but still has made ZERO effort to get a job. She does not go out (again health issues) but does spend time on her phone/tablet a lot all day and escapes into the "supernatural" ghost, snapped, ID channel crime type stuff on tv while she is on her heating pad. I am not snooping on the going out thing, she could be doing something during the day, but I do take our vehicle when I run some errands during the week and she averages about 50-60 miles per week on her driving. Carpooling the kids and a couple of trips to the market and that all adds up. I don't believe anyone is coming over to the house while I am at work, as that is one of our boundary rules, and there are times that I am in the area and stop by to grab lunch or whatever. Again, not spying or snooping, this is just my schedule. She seems to be more productive around the house which is good, but her mood swings are swift and severe and her energy is done quickly. She might get in a light workout (30 minutes of what she calls grandma walking on the treadmill, speed of about 2.0). She adds in a 15 minute stretching and then she is pretty much done. Presently she can't sleep too well (up at 3-4-5am ish) and takes 2-3 naps per day and in bed by 10. Manages to get dinner done about 3 times a week (I make the kids lunches everyday for school and generally make breakfast on the weekends along with at last 1 dinner.
She said she printed out the forms for her or us to go through to make notes on how things will work. These were just mediation paperwork forms with an outline on subjects to discuss and come up with for the divorce. I sent these to her in September, then she asked again for them 10 days ago. I had to send them to her 4 times since she deletes all her emails (she has done this for years as she is a little ocd on the tech side so this is not a new behavior to hide anything although I do know she is using other means to hide communication with her friend (not sure if it is an EA or just a very close friendship since they have only seen each other 5 times in 18 months most during the day just for coffee or lunch).
As I mentioned she is detaching (she actually used the term a week or so ago that she needed to) so she is doing some research on what she needs to do to move on and not be co-dependent or just dependent on me. I don't know if co-dependent is the right word, as I think marriage is a touch co-dependent anyway as you are supposed to be a team, lean and count on one another through life.
I am not initiating any conversations unless about the kids or something that needs done. I am cordial. Good Morning, Good Night, little things here and there. I do let her know I'm headed out for a run, or running an errand, feel like its only right at this point.
Ok, feel much better getting this out. Again, I dislike the positive feeling you get when things just relax because you know it is just going to explode again in some way (not from me hopefully!) soon and who knows what direction that will take.
Re-read the detachment links that Cadet sent again this morning.
Any input and feedback is always appreciated and I love the support. Someday, as I get more versed and along in this, I may even start commenting on others situations and giving them some feedback as well.
What an adventure! Life is a ride. Let's enjoy the journey!
As I mentioned she is detaching (she actually used the term a week or so ago that she needed to) so she is doing some research on what she needs to do to move on and not be co-dependent or just dependent on me.
I don't know if co-dependent is the right word, as I think marriage is a touch co-dependent anyway as you are supposed to be a team, lean and count on one another through life.
Except YOU are not responsible for her happiness nor is she responsible for yours.
Divorce is the ultimate detachment tool.
Best thing to do is detach before and take responsibility for yourself, the same for her.
It is counter intuitive but it strangely works.
^^^^^^^^^^^What Cadet said!
Codependence isn't being a team, it is expecting her to make you happy and vice-versa. It is never a good thing.
I am not snooping on the going out thing, she could be doing something during the day, but I do take our vehicle when I run some errands during the week and she averages about 50-60 miles per week on her driving.
Checking mileage = snooping.
I don't believe anyone is coming over to the house while I am at work, as that is one of our boundary rules, and there are times that I am in the area and stop by to grab lunch or whatever. Again, not spying or snooping, this is just my schedule.
That's snooping too. Look snooping isn't the end of the world, but I want you to be more honest with yourself. You are snooping, you are checking on her, you are calculating miles, you are looking for a strange car in the drive when you are not home, etc. etc. Why does calling snooping by its name matter? Because it indicates that you are not detached. Your posts are filled with detailed info about your W and little about your GAL activities. If you follow other threads here like Maika's you will see that same kind of activity early on, his posts were very W-focused. Over time he shifted his focus to himself and that's when his real growth began. He's well on his way to being the spouse only a fool would leave and starting to see his W as a fool for leaving him. And who wants to be married to a fool? Anyway my point is to just accept that you are still very W-focused and try to think about ways you can break out of that.
I am not initiating any conversations unless about the kids or something that needs done. I am cordial. Good Morning, Good Night, little things here and there. I do let her know I'm headed out for a run, or running an errand, feel like its only right at this point.
I think that's fine, that's just being polite.
Thanks Everyone.
AS, Cadet and Steve GREAT feedback.
I admit that I am still WAY too W focused. I admit as well that I am snooping. Although some of these things I just come along naturally. I have always been the one who noticed something that was moved from the pantry, not nosy, just a little too ocd detail oriented type of personality. Now this didn't mean I always picked my dirty clothes off of the floor either! Old habits are hard to change, but I am working on it daily. I have hidden her feed on Facebook today. Really read through some of the other parts of the forum. I intentionally stay away from the home more now than ever. And more often than not, if I'm going to stop by I text when I'm on my way. I am not trying to see a car in the driveway. I believe I would notice if my W had her hair, makeup, and had "gotten ready" for some type of rendezvous whether at our home or somewhere else. Her health issues kind of preclude that though not impossible. She rarely puts on make up and rarely does her hair and is usually in the same clothes when I get home that she had on when I left. She is a beautiful woman and I do love her very much and that is my issue to deal with. Regardless of how this goes I will always love her.
When I referred to marriage as being co-dependent that was a bad choice of words. For many, many years we were a great team that seamlessly communicated with each other. We floated on air for many years and supported each other in our marriage, our friendship and the other aspects of our lives.
At present, yes, I am lost in my way as all I have done for the last several years was take care of her (with the chronic medical issues and surgeries) and our children so this GAL thing is a very new thing to me. I love the working out part. I feel better, look better and I know my health is improving daily. My W has also noticed and make some comments that I didn't say too much about, but did acknowledge the compliments. I do love my new space. I am also doing more business social events (during the day) to interact more with colleagues. Difficult on the getting out at night thing as there are times, when I get home, that my W is actually asleep on the couch for a few hours. Also the financial strain we are going through I think would lead to some arguments since she is solely focused on herself at the moment. I am also a little fearful of alcohol at the moment. I don't drink to excess, but on Mother's Day, I think I would have handled the situation better if i hadn't had a couple of glasses of champagne. I just need to keep my wits about me!
Cadet, you said it well. I am not responsible for her happiness and she is not responsible for mine.
This counter intuitive stuff is hard (hence trying to keep my wits about me).
Today helped a lot so thank you all. Especially in calling me out and letting me know that what I was doing (and my comments) weren't matching up and I was justifying or whatever my behavior to stay focused on my W. I am going to focus more on myself and I need to let go more and detach better.
Minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day as I move on to a better me.
Hey JS.
My own sitch has sort of slowed down drastically in recent weeks, after a very chaotic and turbulent burst of activity. Seems like I am at least "over the hump", and am not devoting as much mental energy to my own sitch (for the first time in many, many months, lol!) so I am going to try chiming in a little more on others' threads when I get a quiet moment. (Things are still kind of hectic for me with a chronically ill son and another son who is in the process of trying to avoid being flunked out of college, but I think I can make the time to try to give something back on this forum which has helped me so much.
First, you are getting great advice, here. Don't know if it has been firmly established that you have a "WW", but, wayward or walk-away, you wont find much better insight than Sandi2 has to offer. AnotherStander is also a long-time vet with very valuable insights and Steve85 is very very active and engaged. I know I have left out others, but I noticed those right off the bat. All of these folks have your best interests at heart-- just try to keep in mind that everyone on here has a slightly different perspective that tends to be colored by his/her own experiences and situation. Try to stay focused on your own sitch and try not to become too befuddled by the often varying takes you will get on here. If you look hard enough you will usually find general common threads running through the advice and insights of other posters that will prove to be your lifelines, and then particular posters will have special insights into your sitch by virtue of their own experience that will provide more specific guidance (in my own sitch, Artista's guidance has been particularly helpful as she identifies with and has much in common with my own W). At any rate, the bottom line is that everyone on here is on here to help you... so know that any advice is being given in the spirit of making you a better you and giving you the best shot of ultimately salvaging your MR (if that is what you want.)
Specific thoughts on your sitch:
1) Like me in my earliest stages, you are almost completely focused on your W and what she is doing. You are RE-acting instead of acting. YOU should be the one to set the tone. Be confident in who you are. Act decisively. Don't explain yourself to her all the time. Men Act, we don't explain. I myself have an over-active voice box... and sometimes I just need to stick a sock in it. Right now, you are only going to hurt yourself by engaging in MR talks with your W. As far as she is concerned, everything about you and her R with you is BAD. Nothing that happened between the two of you was ever good, happy, enjoyable, etc. Anything that was actually happy or enjoyable will be conveniently forgotten or revised in her head. I saw this time and again with my own WW. I remember one time very early on as I was walking out of the house after a brief exchange she said something suggestive like "well, if you leave now, there's no way you're getting lucky tonight." I heard it VERY clearly. Not 24 hours later she was denying having said anything at all. Events in our past that had been happy were revised by her either factually, forgotten, or else colored by her with something like "I was actually miserable the whole time" or "I always had doubts even when..." What can you do? Detach. Move on. Get out of the house and do cool, fun, amazing things. And don't tell her about it. Maybe leave hints around, but the less she knows the better, especially when you start looking happy and healthy and... awesome. Working out is a GREAT start, and it was a great foundation for me, but make sure you are finding some fun things to fill your time. The most interest I got from my WW during our long journey were in those instances where I was mysteriously off doing something on my own that she did not know about, or, better yet, when she actually thought I was walking out and leaving her. It was the latter such dynamic which finally pushed our sitch "over the edge" and, apparently, jump started what to all appearances is a legit reconciliation process. But you CAN'T count or rely on that happening. What you do has go to be for you first. If you are hoping to save your MR, and to create a better foundation for doing that by bettering yourself and by detaching from your train-wreck WW, fine, but make that a secondary consideration
2) WWs/WAWs want everything to be "fine". They want to be able to ride off into the sunset (With our without their AP, depending on WON there is one) and have everyone love them, hold them blameless, and continue to fill their bank accounts. They cannot grasp the concept that separation, divorce, and, worst of all, infidelity, mean chaos, pain, hard feelings, and broken homes. It is only when they start to grasp some of these concepts, as well as to miss their spouses and their MR, that things MIGHT start to turn. As such... don't do anything to encourage her fantasy that this is going to be easy. It is going to be hard, and she should know that.
Gotta run now but will try to chek in later.
JS, solid advice from hoosjim and I can say ditto. Most WWs/WAWs go into BD thinking it will be a cakewalk. Many have spent a lot of time lying to themselves. My W told herself all kinds of lies about how it would be easy and so much better for everyone involved.
It is sometimes unexpected places that reality hits them in the middle of their fantasy. A few weeks after BD, when my W was conflicted about whether to move forward with there D plans, our D14 came home from school and was talking about one of her close friends and how much they have in common. She went on to say how they always talk about how they have such idyllic lives because their parents are not divorced, like the rest of their friends. And then she started saying how many problems her friends of divorced parents have, having to deal with their step-parents, and going to visit the parent they don't live with etc.
My W even mentioned it later. I could tell her "kids are resilient" line of thinking had been shattered. You see WASs like to delude themselves that their actions do not affect others. The truth is that kids are ALWAYS affected by D. When one decides to D they need to realize that. Sometimes it is still the right thing to do (abusive relationships, drugs/alcohol, gambling etc) but even if the spouse initiating the D is innocent, they need to realize that it will hurt their kids.
Anyway, HJ solid post my friend!
Good Morning Everyone.
Great suggestions, feedback and counsel from Steve and HoosJim. Thank you both! And yes, my W thinks this will be a cakewalk, easy, and everyone will be happier when it is done. AND she, of course, doesn't want to do much to move it along either. Reading through this forum I was very prepared for the quite brief conversation late yesterday afternoon. W had asked that we start putting things together. We decided after she filed and withdrew in February that if we did it again, we were going to file jointly and hopefully keep attorneys out of it. So, she asked that I resend her some initial mediation paperwork (just some intake questions like child support, contact, health insurance, bills, etc.) that would help if we were to go that route. I thought that would be a good outline for her to go through, put down her thoughts and then we could visit this together when she was ready. I sent it to her 4 times (I think I mentioned this last week), and she still had difficulty getting it. Finally got it printed out for her on Friday. Nothing since until yesterday.
Here is the conversation:
W: I looked at those papers and it is pretty complicated. I think it is something that we need to work on together.
Me: I agree we need to work on them together, I just thought it would be easier for you to put down your thoughts and then we could work on the areas we would need to compromise.
W: But there is a lot of stuff in there.
Me: Yep. There is a lot of stuff to address.
W: Why are you being this way? You are always the tweaker when it comes to business/money/finance and this one you just don't seem worried about at all. And I don't understand any of this (more guilt, pity me, blah, blah, blah)
Me: I am deeply concerned and it is very important. Again, I thought it would be easier for you to get your thoughts donw and the discuss instead of us discussing it at the dinner table while the kids are at home.
W: Well, I have some energy now (health issues sometimes used as an excuse or valid reason at this point I think a combination of both for guilt and avoidance), maybe we can do it tonight.
Me: Sure, I'm headed out for a run, we can do it after dinner.
W: Wow, I don't know if I will be able to do that, I will probably have hit my wall (her term when she is done for the day and needs her heating pad and no deep conversations).
Me: Ok, just let me know. I'm headed out for my run. Just get me the stuff when you can.
And then I left out on my run.
Of course, no mention of it the rest of the evening.
Chuckled to myself on the run as I knew that this was what she was going to do. Textbook on this forum and textbook for my W. I have always taken care of everything financial. I think I mentioned right down to she hasn't even balanced a checkbook in 20 years!
I truly want the reality to set in when she goes through this and hopefully this will lift her fantasy fog and maybe, just maybe she can see things a little differently.
Other than that, it is a beautiful day. Reread the LRT this morning. Detaching more, planning some summer activities with the kids this week as their last week is next week. No idea how my W is going to handle this as this will seriously impact her schedule. Also looking to take a business trip or 2 that are overdue (I put them off due to the current situation). And thinking about going to see a couple of friends for a weekend trip as well.
JS, one of the things that started to really wake my wife up was when I spoke to an attorney. Why are you cake feeding her this "joint filing, with out attorneys" thing?
She wants the divorce, not you right? She should file. You should consult with an attorney (let him know you won't file, because he will try to tell you it is better if you do), so that you are covered. Next time it comes up tell her that you have decided you are against the D and won't file. And that you have consulted an attorney for guidance for when she does file.
When this happened in my sitch my wife looked like I just grew horns. She didn't know how to handle it. She never again mentioned D to me, though she claimed for a while afterward that she still wasn't sure about staying in the MR.
DO NOT FEED HER FANTASY OF AN EASY DIVORCE!
Steve,
I am not attempting in any way to make it easy on her. When she filed (then withdrew a week later) in February, she retained an attorney. She then found out how much money the attorney charged just to file for her and then to withdraw so she got a HUGE realization on the cost involved in this. We don't have many assets left after the financial disaster, but what we do have left will definitely be exhausted by both of us if we use attorneys.
On my side, I have to be smart for myself and my children. My dream is to reconcile, retain our family and work on our marriage in a 2.0 scenario. Never going to back to where we were but moving forward to a better more fulfilling MR for both of us.
My W hates confrontations so her turning it over to an attorney would be actually easier for her so having her confront it first personally, to me makes sense. She has stated and believes that at some point something will happen and that I will draw my line and it will be turned over to attorneys. She has seen me in action for over 20 years and knows that when I do get to that point, that I will make that decision. My response to her was--Well, don't let it get there.
I have consulted with a few attorneys and will use one as well to go through everything on my side to be sure I am as protected as I can be throughout. I will not do this for her. Right now just letting her go through the motions on the checklist to let her realize how bad this truly is.
Financial part aside (and this is going to be a HUGE shocker for her) just the 2x4 that she will be without her children half the time, having to schedule communications, holiday schedules, vacations, schools, restrictions on the location you can live due to schools, etc. I am hopeful will be eye opening.
Be aware she may be willing to give up full custody to avoid most of that. I've seen it happen. Even my wife was going to give up custody of our D (they are very close) and have her over for sleepovers. My wife avoids confrontations too, which is why the talking to an attorney shattered her illusion of a friendy, easy D.
Understood and thanks for the input Steve!
I very seriously doubt that she would attempt to give up full custody, but then again, I never thought I would be here either!!!
Great thoughts from hoosjim and Steve85, read those a few times!
So, she asked that I resend her some initial mediation paperwork (just some intake questions like child support, contact, health insurance, bills, etc.) that would help if we were to go that route.
I wouldn't even do that much unless YOU want D. Make her do all the work. Your stance should always be "I do not want D, but I understand it's what you want and I will respect your wishes and not stand in your way."
W: I looked at those papers and it is pretty complicated. I think it is something that we need to work on together.
Me: I agree we need to work on them together, I just thought it would be easier for you to put down your thoughts and then we could work on the areas we would need to compromise.
W: But there is a lot of stuff in there.
Me: Yep. There is a lot of stuff to address.
W: Why are you being this way? You are always the tweaker when it comes to business/money/finance and this one you just don't seem worried about at all. And I don't understand any of this (more guilt, pity me, blah, blah, blah)
So there it is. She wants YOU to do the heavy lifting. DO NOT DO IT. Again, unless YOU want D you should not lift a finger to help her beyond providing her with any required info that needs to come from you. If she keeps pressuring you just tell her what I mentioned up above.
Me: Sure, I'm headed out for a run, we can do it after dinner.
W: Wow, I don't know if I will be able to do that, I will probably have hit my wall (her term when she is done for the day and needs her heating pad and no deep conversations).
Me: Ok, just let me know. I'm headed out for my run. Just get me the stuff when you can.
Good! You handled that well. It's not your responsibility to put your life on hold to make it convenient for her to discuss D. If she wants to have that discussion then fine, she can do it when you're ready.
Does she have Fibromyalgia?
Sandi,
No she does not have that. She has chronic pain from 2 spinal surgeries creating debilitating erosion that will just get worse over time. She has had her thyroid taken out which is a roller coaster in and of itself between the hyper and hypo scenarios and keeping the medication adjusted to keep her level. There is also a serious IBS issue that has been going on for about 8 months now. So chronic pain, chronic IBS (either total constipation or chronic diarrea (sp?). Add in the thyroid stuff and all the medications and yes, it is a pharmacy at our home. I know the pharmacists on a first name basis! Trying new stuff here and there, the opiods she has been on for a decade (trying to wean off of those but don't know how she will totally be able to do that with the pain issue) She has tried and sometimes still does CBD and/or medical mmj very sparingly. I am very anti drug, but I would rather have something to give her relief that is natural than something with 7 pages of side effects. Overall just a cluster of issues.
Example is presently she is in hypo. Her last endo doc (thyroid) retired so her primary is doing it until she finds another one. Messes with her appetite really bad. She doesn't eat much anyway (a little on the vain side, but I would say not in a bad way, just always has been concerned about taking care of herself, eating right and all of that.) So she is not eating anything really. Yesterday she had a paleo pancake and a banana. She also can't sleep due to the hypo thing so she gets up at 3-4-5am. I have NO idea what she does during the day, no job, etc. but unless the laundry is done, the house is clean or something noticeable, I have no idea. She is generally still in the same clothes she got up in. Also doesn't take her shower until I get home and gets immediately into her pajamas for the evening. Lately she crashes around 4-5 for an hour or 2 nap.
When she does have energy, unfortunately her nature is to do everything she can. She frantically will clean the house, workout, make a great dinner, etc. which will lead to her being just torn down for the next 2-3 days.
Her primary dr is trying to get her thyroid in order so he is having her skip one dose every other week. The last time she did this was 2 weeks ago tomorrow. So she skipped on Saturday and on Sunday, she got up at 5, asleep on the couch for 3 hours, got up and went upstairs and took a nap for 4 hours, then moved back downstairs to watch tv then back up at 7pm to go to bed. truly a wasted day. Well today she is skipping it so tomorrow should be a totally done day for her.
As I had suggested before, it is not totally out of the realm of possibilities for her to be in a PA. I would lean more on the EA/close friend side as all of these issues have made her very isolated over the last several years. Also, for what it is worth, she totally hates men, period. I used to be the exception. Her past dictates that way prior to me.
I know this is way more detailed than you wanted, but hopefully that gives you some insight into the major issues that she is dealing with. There are others, but I don't know how she is ever going to manage this by herself, with a job, 2 kids, etc. etc. etc. I don't want to be Plan B. If she doesn't choose to be with me for the right reasons, please move on.
Thanks again, Happy Friday and I thank you so much for your interest in my situation and my family!
And she wants to leave you? WHY????? Good grief you are a saint to stand for a marriage to someone with that many health problems that contributes nothing to home upkeep or to the finances! I mean I get it, I would have done the same for my ex when we were married if she had developed issues like that. But it's got to be hard not to just tell her "ummm yeah good luck doing better than me out there."
Thanks for the explanation about her health. For her to think she could hold any type of job, just shows how her mind is in la-la land.
My W was similar to this. Broke her back when she was 16, and has been on opioids for years. Eventually develped an addiction. Those things suck the life out of people. Other back issues came into play, and the doctors told her things were only going to get worse as time goes by. She also did very little around the house and had no job. Since BD, I thought the same thing AS said. How in the heck is she going to be able to take care of herself? I planned on growing old with her and taking care of her along the way, but now that may not be an option...
Good Morning and Happy Monday!
I wanted to start this post off with just a thought.
Prior to her desire to D, I had zero intention of ending our MR and I was committed to the "better or worse, sickness and health" vows we both took. I feel these through my heart, mind and soul. With that said, please do not view me as a saint for "hanging in there". I have made and own my issues in our MR. I am not and never was perfect. However much I believe that we are an amazing couple when we click, the health, financial and just life issues have really played a huge part in getting us here. I do believe the opioids, anti-anxiety, and other strong medications have affected her as well. It has definitely caused her to introvert her life.
I am not defending her. I just wanted to point out that I own my part, have willingly admitted it, and would still gladly re-focus and continue our MR in the 2.0 scenario.
Weekend was good. Getting the kids ready for finals and wrapping up the school year! D had spend the night at a friends house on Friday so W wanted to go through the mediation questions on Saturday around lunchtime. I said sure. We sat down. I tried to set the tone and said that we weren't going to solve everything today, that this is again her choice to do this, I wasn't going to stand in her way, but that I was going to protect myself and our children.
Questions started and comments were made. These, to me, were easy questions since we had discussed them mostly already. Custody of the kids? 50/50. When/where to drop them off? I'd suggest that each pick up the children Friday afternoon from their school every other week. Keeps us from seeing each other and keeps the kids on their general schedule. Starting talking about communication between child/parent and parent/parent. Decent conversation, but did veer off a bit as we were talking about the coming week. Steer back to questions. As we got to Money, that's where it got interesting. W says she knows she is going to have to get a job, I asked how the search was going since its been a few weeks since she had mentioned that. "I haven't done anything yet". me: "Well, you probably should". We talked child support amounts and there is a prenup excluding any alimony so I wouldn't entertain any thoughts on that. Then came the guilt, pity, etc. "We were together 20 years, you won't help me a little to get started?" "You invested this much into this venture and lost, am I not as important as that?" Sometimes it is tough not to laugh from seeing the exact same things happen across other MR conversations on this board. I simply said again " This is your choice. When we were are in an active MR and working as a team, we work as a team. When you decide to leave our MR and no longer want to be life partners fully, my responsibility to you ends. " She got a little upset at that point, we spoke about a few other financial things, what is she going to do to get her car out of my name, etc. We did not fight, but we decided it was a good point to end the conversation. Her feeling at the end was that we should probably get an independent 3rd party involved (mediator) to go through this. I said "if that is what you want then set it up". She said "I don't know your schedule". I said "you would do the exact same thing I would do, call and ask an available time, I would check with you if its ok, then book it, not that difficult". So everyone commenting that she just wants me to do the heavy lifting is accurate!
She didn't sleep well Fri/Sat or Sun night. Up at 4 ish especially this morning so I'm sure she will be napping later.
Or she will be out looking for a job. Who knows. I did ask about her friend who is feeding her a line of information along the way who she is supposed to work for when her friend gets their business going and she said, "we are waiting on finding an Angel Investor". Pie in the sky stuff.
Anyway, Another day, another week and working on myself. Things are happening and if they fall will do well for my children and myself.
Thanks for being there forum!
JS, we've all behaved poorly in our MR. Short of extreme emotional/verbal abuse, and obviously physical abuse (oh and infidelity) that doesn't give a spouse a right to bolt or start an A.
So own your part, forgive yourself and move forward. Too many LBSs take the blame and continue to apologize for things in the past they can't change.
Owned it and have forgiven myself for the things that were within my control. This is her decision and I believe you have chimed in on the advice to let her drive the train, do the heavy lifting and let her realize her new reality.
Oh, and I often think back to Sandi2's comment that she is not my responsibility any longer, that my W "fired" me from that position.
These next few weeks will be interesting as the kids will now be home for the summer full time and how this is going to affect her moods, attitudes, personal time, etc.
Stay tuned summer campers! Class V rapids up ahead. Good part for me. I'm standing on the side watching the raft headed down the river. I refuse to get sucked into fights, arguments, R talks, etc. IF she ever changes and refocuses, THEN we can talk.
Wow, JS, that's a really tough deal medically for your W. I had no idea she was dealing with all that. Not to excuse her or anything, but... all of that, particularly the thyroid stuff, can't be helping the sitch.
I felt compelled to post about this because I, too, suffered from a lengthy period of oddball-type afflictions that eventually snowballed and, in fact, nearly killed me. It wasn't until I ventured off the beaten path into the realm of integrative medicine that I got the help I needed. My own issues boiled down to a root problem of heavy metal, particularly mercury, toxification/poisoning. I was very heavy consumer of large ocean going fish, particularly tuna, had a mouthful of mercury-laden amalgam fillings (and grinded me teeth terribly in my sleep to boot), and worked several years at a former munitions factory. On top of that, I have what is apparently not all that uncommon a genetic defect that significantly impairs the bodies natural ability to clear some of those metals. It was a perfect storm. I went through diagnoses ranging from gulf war syndrome to lyme disease to "fibromyalgia" (which, for anyone interested, is a non-diagnosis: It merely describes the person's symptoms and literally means "all your joints hurt.) At my nadir, I had a resting body temperature in the 95s or low 96s, tremors, brain fog, arthralgia in most of my joints, and was getting pneumonia about every 4 to 6 months. Finding the right doctors enabled me to identify the problem, and clear the root causes (replaced all my silver fillings, chelated out the heavy metals, cleaned up my diet, fitness regimen, etc.) I am now healthier than probably at any point since my early 20s. But it takes the right doctors. I am wondering if your W is getting the right kind of medical care. Doctors looking at hard-to-diagnose problems can sometimes do more harm than good. For example one of my early doctors was convinced I had some sort of chronic infection that required a long, strong course of antibiotics. Unfortunately, that ended up resulting, witn my surpressed immune system, with thrush/yeast/candida setting in and I ended up with an allergic fungal sinusitis which is not under control (thank you, Mayo clinic) but with which I will probably always be dealing with. I also still deal with a certain level of adrenal and thyroid suppression as there was a certain amount of long-term damage from the mercury, but my current doc has finally got me on the right combination of replacement hormones and I have been steadily weaning off some of them.
My point is, these things can be difficult. Very difficult, They can become all-encompassing and make everything else seem unimportant to the sufferer. They can also be aggravated by poor or overly dogmatic medical treatment. Some of what your wife is dealing with (structural damage to her spine) is unfixable, but a lot of what she is dealing with sounds like it could be systemic in some way... a lot of inflammatory and auto-immune type stuff. I kind of wish we knew each other in real life and I could refer you to some folks who might be able to help her (not that, at this point in your relationship, she would likely accept such help, but it might be worth a try.) I know for a fact from my own experience that thyroid issues can be touchy and can require a delicate approach. I was very lucky to find a doctor who is on the cutting edge of thyroid research and who is starting to change the philosophy of a lot of current practitioners who, she believes, are prescribing the wrong stuff at that wrong doses to a LOT of people. IDK, I am not a doctor myself, and even in terms of referrals can't really give you any advice on these forums, but I really hope your W is getting good care and, if not, that you/she can find her someone who can get to the bottom of her issues. The one thing my current doctors have impressed upon me is that in a lot of cases where you have a diffuse range of symptoms like that, is that there is often some root underlying cause... it may require peeling back a few onion layers, but oftentimes, as with my case, if you get to the root of the problem you can fix a lot of the ills.
I wish both of you the best. Chronic illness just flat-out [censored].
Dear HJ,
I appreciate your insight and concern for my W's health issues. She has been diagnosed, misdiagnosed, mistreated (by dr's) and the whole plethora of things you mentioned. As I said, I am not defending her at all in her decisions and actions.
I do think it has a lot to do with her reflections on her quality of life, how her life has turned out (we live fairly well so this is not a reflection or comparison of our MR or myself), and just how she thought it was going to be. She has actually said that she thinks her health will improve drastically when we part. How can that be? These are mostly debilitating chronic long term issues. They will not magically disappear! Would I do anything to help get her the best medical care and treatment in the world, yes. But if she "blames" me for her chronic pain, thyroid issues and chronic IBS issues, wow, I have some real power out there!
If it takes her "getting away from me" to make her happy and healthy, then all I would wish for her is happiness.
I have been on the entire rollercoaster with her. The amazing times when we floated on air, so in love, finished each other's sentences, drifted days away together because nothing mattered, to the other extreme where we didn't know if she was going to make it through the surgery, let alone walk again, or whatever medical or medication up and down arose. When the stuff hit the fan, I just strapped on my saddle and rode harder to make sure we were ok, could pay the bills and make it through. Unfortunately, when it came the other way and I needed her most through the financial issues, she curled up in a corner and closed up like a turtle. We deal with things in different ways, but I didn't have the luxury to escape. I had to pick up and move on so our family could eat, survive and thrive.
Would love nothing better than to have her examine these issues, refocus and work. Again, not counting on it, and don't know if there will be time for it.
I asked how the search was going since its been a few weeks since she had mentioned that. "I haven't done anything yet". me: "Well, you probably should". We talked child support amounts and there is a prenup excluding any alimony so I wouldn't entertain any thoughts on that. Then came the guilt, pity, etc. "We were together 20 years, you won't help me a little to get started?" "You invested this much into this venture and lost, am I not as important as that?" Sometimes it is tough not to laugh from seeing the exact same things happen across other MR conversations on this board. I simply said again " This is your choice. When we were are in an active MR and working as a team, we work as a team. When you decide to leave our MR and no longer want to be life partners fully, my responsibility to you ends."
Brother that was all perfectly said, well done!
Her feeling at the end was that we should probably get an independent 3rd party involved (mediator) to go through this. I said "if that is what you want then set it up". She said "I don't know your schedule". I said "you would do the exact same thing I would do, call and ask an available time, I would check with you if its ok, then book it, not that difficult". So everyone commenting that she just wants me to do the heavy lifting is accurate!
Outstanding! It sounds like you handled the entire convo perfectly. You were calm, reasonable, but stood your ground on key points. Excellent.
And it continues....
W sent an email that she wants to schedule the mediator and sent an email to them. They sent an email back saying they don't do 30 minute appointments. They only do 1 or 2 hour appointments and ask that you have most ideas put down prior to the meeting. Based on the email I received, my W did not read any of this. It also says in the agreement that they will give zero advice to either side, are impartial and will remain that way. I believe she didn't read that either. They also said that they charge $200 per hour that is split by both parties. Fairly certain she didn't read that one! (expectation is that I would pay for all of it!).
She said "what do you think and we can talk about it later".
What do I think? I think this is crazy. Ok, got that out.
So, some feedback please.
Do I point out these issues? or just blindly go in there (I am not blind and already know what I would/wouldn't agree to) with her?
I want her to do the heavy lifting on this and I am fairly certain she still has no plan (based on our weekend conversation) as to where she is going and how she is going to pay for it. Right now she just wants to get out. Wants a fresh start, etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah...
just a quick note.
W had a migraine last night when I got home so no discussions.
She asked a quick question about our change to new health insurance. I started to explain the program and she stopped me and said "I can't deal with this right now".
I stopped and that was pretty much an uneventful evening.
As far as the fee, I'd point out to her that the mediator is $100 from each of us for each hour. So she understands, you are on your own for your half.
Do I point out these issues? or just blindly go in there (I am not blind and already know what I would/wouldn't agree to) with her?
JS - My EW and I split the cost of our D 50/50. We did not go to mediation and we hired 1 L to complete all the paperwork. It cost us about $250 to file with the County and we paid $750 to the L.
I say that to say this. Do what your comfortable with, there is no right or wrong answer and it strictly depends on the R between you and your W. If you are comfortable and are knowledgeable about your rights then proceed. If not, don't.
When my W told me she wanted to move forward with Divorce I agreed to meet with her at a time that was good for the both of us. She made the appointment with the L that was good for both of us. I did pull our financial documentation because I handled all of the bill and investments and I did proofread and make adjustments to our final Divorce decree.
In the end everything that my EW and I agreed upon was done so between us. No else advised on anything.
That made me feel extremely comfortable. My EW also agreed to not have the state auto deduct my child support payments from my check each month.
Don't be scared and do what is comfortable to you.
Reading through other posts, I am just asking a question from those who have read through my sitch.
Am I dealing with a WW, WAW, MLC or a combination of these?
I just am looking to see from an outside perspective (knowing you don't live in my home and know everything) but by her actions, reactions, etc. what the overall opinion is.
Thank you!
Definitely WAW, maybe WW. MLC doesn't matter.
I said this yesterday. WWs are usually always also WAWs. WAWs are not necessarily WWs.
MLCs are a catalyst for 1 or both above. But the catalyst doesn't matter as it doesn't change how you approach your WW or WAW. WWs do require different handling, and sandi and arista can guide on that.
Thanks Steve.
Just an update to get the thoughts out of my head.
S had his 6th grade graduation today. Both W and I went, rode together, and talked and mingled with other parents after like nothing was going on. Other than that, fairly chilly between us. I didn't volunteer any conversation and just responded (politely) when she did. After we got home she said that she was going to have a family dinner for him tonight. "ok" was my response.
After, I get the email from my W that usually takes a week after school ends to get. My D still has a half day tomorrow, but the gist of the email was "your kids are crazy and running around the house!" Knew she wasn't going to like her space infringed upon, but didn't think it was going to be this quick. In her email she said she was checking on dates to get in front of a mediator. I simply responded sure, just let me know and we can get a date. She sent back, well I guess this week is out, I will call and see if they have something next week. She is in a big hurry then puts it off! I kind of laughed to myself and just responded that they want some paperwork filled out prior to us going. She said "we pretty have it all filled out". We do not, we had a small conversation where we agreed on just a very few issues. So NO we have nothing filled and/or worked out. I didn't say this to her, just responded "ok".
Both kids out of school either now or by 11am tomorrow. Let's see how this goes! W is still having issues and is not sleeping. She was up at very early the last few days. I don't know if these are medical, mental (anxiety to our sitch) or what, but you can tell she is just drained. Kids didn't need lunch today, so I spent an extra 45 on the treadmill this morning. 8 miles in before 7 am, not a bad start to the day!
HAVE to find something to do with the kids this weekend especially since it is a holiday weekend. May go to a park or a canyon for a hike so as not to start a financial discussion and issues.
My S was awesome today! So proud of him! I hate that my kids are going through this. And that it is probably going to get worse before it gets better.
I will be the lighthouse and the rock.
FUN update...
W calls and is upset that we are in a touch of a disagreement about how to deal with our D's grades. I voiced my opinion, she voiced hers. We discussed the united front situation. We talked, I listened, then she went into a rant about how she is positive I am seeing someone else (I'm not) since I am working out, looking better, more positive and happy. She said "everyone knows your attitude is fake and that it won't last". Responded that I didn't know what she meant by fake, I was just working on and am happier at the present time. She then went on to jab pretty hard. "You will be in a relationship within 2 months of me leaving. Men are weak and can't stand to be alone. All you want is just to get laid. " Wow, pretty harsh words followed by "you will find someone, sweep her off her feet, then destroy that marriage like you did ours". So 20 years of "faking" my way through, I'm pretty amazing and should head to hollywood!
She hung up. I called back and asked to speak to our D. She put her on the phone, I reiterated and backed up everything my W said and got off the phone. W calls back even more upset that. "how could you do this?" What, support you in what YOU thought was right?
Way off the rails today and its only the first day (D had her last half day today) of summer break.
I did threaten to go ahead and come home and talk to D directly and W asked "why, are you just trying to punish me by coming home?"
She then said I was dragging my feet in the D situation again by saying that anything regarding business I am straight on and would have it done. I asked "did the mediator you called get back to you yet?" She said no. Responded that I didn't know what else she wanted me to do. She said "I just want out of this house and done with you. I'm ready to just throw everything out the window just to get out."
This is going to get way harder as it progresses. Whether there is a chance to get better and recon or not, unsure.
JS, she is rebelling. Her words are and actions are very revealing. When a WAW says things like "You are seeing someone." "You will be with someone in 2 months." "Your changes are not real." They are rebelling against what they are seeing.
Likely she is having feelings she didn't want to have. Feelings of wanting to stay. Feelings of being reattracted to you. Feelings of questioning her previously state desire.
I've told my story before, but the last time my wife really rebelled against the MR we were waiting for a table at a marriage retreat. She was hearing a lot of things at the retreat that she didn't want to hear. Commitment. Sticking it out through tough times. Not fooling yourself that you "don't loving" your spouse anymore. A lot of things that were making her think. It was Chritian based too so it was really hitting home to her that this was all in line with her beliefs and faith no matter what she tried to say.
So we are at a restaurant at lunch waiting for a table. And I am going through news articles on my phone. She looks over and says "What are you doing, messaging girls online?" (Now remember, that was exactly her behavior that lead to BD, an online EA with another guy.) I just chuckle and shake my head. She then says: "I mean, it would be okay if you were."
This launched us into a huge R talk, throughout lunch. It stayed civil, though she did get frustrated a couple of times.
That afternoon, I put my arm around her at the retreat during one of the speakers and she put her hand on my knee. We went to dinner that night and while waiting for a table I put my arm around her and she laid her head on my shoulder. We shopped together. The next day on the way home she mentioned that she just needed to get her "head on straight", and realize that she was committed because that was what God wanted. We talked a little more about the R, but then we just had a good time on the rest of the drive. Sang, talked, laughed.
The point is JS that WWs often rebel against the fact that they are coming back to the marriage. After all they've already stated that they are done. And that is hard to change back from once it has been stated. People don't like to be wrong. Especially when it took a lot for them to verbalize their desire to end the marriage to begin with.
To me this is all good stuff from your W. It shows me that she is having that tug of war internally. That she wants to go, but now she is starting to want to stay. Remember, believe NOTHING they say. We often think of that in terms of them telling us good things to get what they want. But it goes the other way too. You can't believe them when they say they don't believe your changes, or that "everyone knows", like she could even know that. And then having you back her up on the D's grades, just starts to cement that you've changed, and it makes her angry because it is another tug of wanting to stay.
"I just want out of this house and done with you. I'm ready to just throw everything out the window just to get out."
More of the same! Big talk by someone that isn't even following through in her other pronouncements (paperwork for mediation, scheduling time with the mediator, etc).
So while it is hard and frustrating at times, this is a sign that DBing is working. All WWs are different, some are more stubborn than others. She may continue to rebel against these changing feelings for quite a while. But as someone that has been through it this is all pretty much according to script once they start seeing the 180s, the GAL, and a spouse they'd be foolish to leave!
Oh one other thing I failed to mention. On the drive home from the retreat, she even admitted that it was hard to give up on the dream of getting a job and getting her own place. This shows the thinking of the WW, where that dream or illusion or fog-induced ideal is hard to let go of. She was wanting to. She even felt she needed to. But it was difficult because for at least 2 months (and even longer since it started before BD) she had convinced herself that that was exactly what she wanted and needed to be happy.
Thanks Steve! Great feedback and I appreciate it!
I will continue with my GAL and do what I am doing. She is on it today, texting me what day we can do the mediation appointment. Responded and we will see. She still has done zero on the paperwork side.
Her first place she called had June 12th open. She said she is going to look for one to get us in sooner. She is VERY pressed within herself presently and I agree with you she is struggling to get to where she has decided she wants to be despite her glancing/looking back. With the kids out for summer, it is going to be a little more difficult for her to have her space at home and the crowding will not allow her to escape into her fantasy world too well. I almost welcome the escalation as it means she still has very strong feeling. These feelings may be very bad at the moment, but strong.
I have read through your posts and appreciate the insight on your own situation. Your struggle is real and I am wishing all the best for you as you both are moving forward.
Just an fyi on my W. She is very anti religious. Her parents, F alcoholic abuser, M alcoholic enabler, but they shoved it down her throat so she rebelled very early. She is "spiritual" and believes in a higher power, she just turns off when it comes to Christianity and organized religion. A few of the books we used prior were Christian based and that really made her turn her head and kept her from focusing on our MR instead of the bad feelings about religion. Not giving up on that one, but that is a fight for another day down the road.
Thanks Steve! Great feedback and I appreciate it!
I will continue with my GAL and do what I am doing. She is on it today, texting me what day we can do the mediation appointment. Responded and we will see. She still has done zero on the paperwork side.
Her first place she called had June 12th open. She said she is going to look for one to get us in sooner. She is VERY pressed within herself presently and I agree with you she is struggling to get to where she has decided she wants to be despite her glancing/looking back. With the kids out for summer, it is going to be a little more difficult for her to have her space at home and the crowding will not allow her to escape into her fantasy world too well. I almost welcome the escalation as it means she still has very strong feeling. These feelings may be very bad at the moment, but strong.
I have read through your posts and appreciate the insight on your own situation. Your struggle is real and I am wishing all the best for you as you both are moving forward.
Just an fyi on my W. She is very anti religious. Her parents, F alcoholic abuser, M alcoholic enabler, but they shoved it down her throat so she rebelled very early. She is "spiritual" and believes in a higher power, she just turns off when it comes to Christianity and organized religion. A few of the books we used prior were Christian based and that really made her turn her head and kept her from focusing on our MR instead of the bad feelings about religion. Not giving up on that one, but that is a fight for another day down the road.
It always saddens me when someone takes things their parents or others did to them and blames Christ for it.
Oh well, this is why we are warned to avoid being a stumbling block...........
I agree. I grew up in church as well and very fond memories and great times. I think my W more associates the very, very bad times with her parents and the hypocrisy that went along with it so every time it is mentioned, she just shuts down. We have been to some churches over the years, even found a two that we liked along the way, we just never stuck with it.
So BIG night last night. She blew up on the phone yesterday at me very much as I mentioned. I got home, went on my run, things settled down and she came up to me looking to talk. She said that she wasn't taking anything she said back, but she was sorry that it was a very long thyroid rage filled tirade. That she was very emotional and just ready to get things moving forward. She the presented her left hand to me and said "I just wanted you to know that I took my wedding ring off today. I just think it was time. I need to detach and this was symbolic for me to do this." I was hurt as I did figure this was coming some day, just didn't think it would be then. I flinched for a moment, made a jab or two, then re-focused and realized that (at least I think) this is her VERY much trying to solidify her position in her mind. She is struggling with her decision. She is hard pressed to stick to it. Yesterday was a hard day for her and this was her way of standing up and doing all she could to move it forward. Thoughts on this???
After her confusing non apology, I just said "ok".
When she said the ring thing, like I said, I did make a jab or two. She is totally convinced that I am seeing someone due to the fact that I am taking care of myself, happier, healthier, and not pestering her any longer. I asked her if she thought I was that kind of a man. She responded "I never would have before, but now I just don't know". I responded "I am still the same man I have always been. There were the few years of anger due to the financial crisis that was not a happy time for any of us. But, I am done with that and am moving on. I am happier with what I am doing and I know who I am. I have never in our time together been unfaithful to you."
I know this was kind of a temp check from her as she also said that I could take my ring off if I wanted to as well. I didn't respond. I will keep my ring on. IF I ever get to the point that we are D, then I will entertain those thoughts.
Weird ending though. After, we just watched a show as our D was at a party that my W had dropped her off at. She stayed a little longer and it was dark outside. I had told both my W and D that my W was taking her and coming to get her. D called and said she was ready. I got up and did some things around the house thinking it was a no brainer on this since everything was all set up. W eventually gets up and says "I guess I have to go all the way across town and get her, in the dark, and I have no idea where I am going." A lot of drama there. I just let that go. First, she dropped her off, 2nd the place is 10 minutes from our home, not across town, and if she couldn't drive at night, why didn't she just pick her up earlier? or ask me to go get her?
Should be a fun holiday weekend. Weather will be good, so looking forward to getting out by myself and with my kids!
So BIG night last night. She blew up on the phone yesterday at me very much as I mentioned. I got home, went on my run, things settled down and she came up to me looking to talk. She said that she wasn't taking anything she said back, but she was sorry that it was a very long thyroid rage filled tirade. That she was very emotional and just ready to get things moving forward. She the presented her left hand to me and said "I just wanted you to know that I took my wedding ring off today. I just think it was time. I need to detach and this was symbolic for me to do this." I was hurt as I did figure this was coming some day, just didn't think it would be then. I flinched for a moment, made a jab or two, then re-focused and realized that (at least I think) this is her VERY much trying to solidify her position in her mind. She is struggling with her decision. She is hard pressed to stick to it. Yesterday was a hard day for her and this was her way of standing up and doing all she could to move it forward. Thoughts on this???
After her confusing non apology, I just said "ok".
Yes this is exactly what you think it could be. She is rebelling against her feelings of starting to want to change. Even the accusing you of seeing someone is her trying to keep justifying in her mind her decision to D. As I think it was you I told yesterday, this is all good even though it hard to go through. Her accusing you, her removing her ring, IMHO, is her obviously questioning her decision and therefore trying to muster up reasons and actions to stay the original course she had set her mind on.
JS, you are doing well. You are handling things well. The jab or two was a mistake. Cool, loving detachment with validation should have been your reaction. "I am sorry you feel that way, however I feel that since we are married we should still wear our rings." You validate her feelings, but stated yours.
And yes, it is easier to think of what to say or should have said after the fact. So I think you handled it pretty well considering you got blindsided with the ring thing. This is why if you were expecting it it helps to have your reaction and response ready to go. Again, easy to say afterward, harder to do in practice since your hope is you never have to do it.
Not an easy weekend, but not a bad one either.
I did cancel our joint credit card on Friday. Unfortunately, my W didn't call me back when I did until after she tried to use it. Funny how things work, she hadn't used it in awhile, so it was just very coincidental and of course dramatizing how it unfolded. She accused me of retaliating for her taking off the ring. I stated I had just researched it a few weeks ago and it was time. No reason to leave a large credit account out there for either of us to exploit and be accused of anything. She said "but that was for emergencies". I stated yes, it was. We will have to find other ways to handle those. I VERY much validated her feelings and apologized for how it unfolded as I did not mean to put her in that situation. I had called to let her know and the timing just blew. But I owned the issue, validated her feelings, and again apologized for the position she ended up in. I did not apologize for taking care of the outstanding possible blow up issue.
W and I stayed away from each other for the most part except for dinners with the kids.
W did have one confrontation where she accused me again of seeing someone. She, of course, added the "if you are, I don't care, just tell me" line. I validated her feelings an said that this is very hard for both of us as we have said we are going to respect each other in this way while we are living in the same home. If you don't care, why does it matter?
She again commented " Well, with all the changes, you taking care of yourself way better, not angry, and not pestering me, SOMETHING has to have changed". I just told her that I was through being angry and was working on myself and enjoying the children. Again, validated her feelings, did not get drawn in. I think I said something else like, As we are headed through this process that you want us to go through, it is going to be very different. We used to talk about everything, now we rarely speak and it is just about finances or the kids, so yes, I can see how your mind may wander here and there. I do the same.
I did end the conversation quickly and then ran an couple of errands. I am still very perplexed about her swearing I am seeing someone else. As I said, other than my hikes and runs which are all during the day, all I do is go to work and back. We have no money for extracurricular activities, nor do I want alcohol involved if I were just to go hang with some friends for a few hours. I feel this is counter intuitive to the GAL part, but I do not know how to handle and justify this any other way.
Her rage issue is still going on. No sleep, pain, rage so she was very cold this weekend and again we stayed away from each other. I don't think she liked the fact I wasn't following her like a puppy dog and did my own thing. Think this caused her to do some more research on the D/Mediation thing as she spent a bunch of time upstairs with her computer making notes.
Today is another day!
Don't now what it will hold. I did ask how her job search was going as some help paying the bills would be appreciated and she said she hasn't started it yet. Maybe that was the research she was doing.
One other comment.
I am perplexed about a situation.
W wants a D and to be gone.
I have been looking for a good opportunity for almost 2.5 years now. Funny how things go, but this opportunity (with ownership stake) just came up a month ago. Discussions are moving along, but I can't do anything with this MR issue as I wouldn't want to give her any rights, nor would I put my partner at risk getting involved in this.
This would require a relocation. W has always said she wanted to move back to where the relocation would be anyway, so I don't think that is an issue. My problem is, that if I want to get my careers back on track, I may to push the D quicker to get it settled in the window for this opportunity. Do I do this and hope that along the way she realizes and changes her mind? Do I just grab the reins, push forward and make the D happen? Or do I just sit, practice DB and wait?
Financially, this could open the door back to where my kids and myself would be in a way better place.
Weird how life is.
JS, as is often said here, D usually happens when the LBS has had enough and files for it themselves. Filing for D is always within your rights, so yes if you this something you want to do D, for whatever reason, then do it.
Sometimes the LBS filing for D is the wakeup call the WAS needs. Until then they may have been using threat of D as a way to try and control the LBS. When the LBS files that is the ultimate show of detachment and sometimes the WAS will panic and want to R.
It is a dangerous time for the LBS. The WAS might just be stalling until Plan A comes together, therefore they don't want to give up Plan B yet. So it is important for you to think about what you'd need her to do in order to prove that she is ready to really R, or if it is just bluster to try and regain control.
I know in my sitch, my contacting a lawyer really sobered up my W that D was more than just a threat. Within a few weeks of me telling her I had spoken to a lawyer, she started to come back to the MR. She started to not only say but to show she was willing to embrace my positive changes and work on the MR. The big change was she began to engage in the homework we got from the MC. Up until that I think she was in MC just to say that "we tried". Once I dropped the lawyer bomb on her she was suddenly all for doing the homework.
So don't use D as a manipulation but realize if you do file for D she might want back into the MR. You just have to make sure she really wants to R and isn't just holding on to Plan B in a panic.
Thanks Steve.
It is a rough, rough choice.
I have to think on this today a lot.
I understand the dilemma. For my own career going forward it would probably be better to relocate but that would require selling the house and foreclosing any possibility of R with the W. I know that I am not there yet but you seem much further along in your journey. I wish you the best!
My W would welcome the relocation.
She wants us to be in the same town, just not the same house, and not the city we are in now.
Weird!
She thinks a "fresh start" will benefit her, the kids and everyone.
She forgets the shock on the kids with their parents breaking apart, moving cities, leaving friends behind, schools behind, etc. Not to mention that we would have separate households and we can't afford something like we are in now, so no back yard means the big dog has to go. Who is going to tell them that?
Not to mention that moving is expensive. She has no money for deposit, rent, utilities, car, let alone who is going to move her stuff? AND, she doesn't have a job.
Davide, I am definitely not any further along in this journey. fortunately or not, life sends you curves and the path and timeline fluctuates. I am still committed to my MR and my family. BUT, how can I ignore a chance to provide better for my family (as unsure as I am as to who those members are at this moment)
I have been looking for a good opportunity for almost 2.5 years now. Funny how things go, but this opportunity (with ownership stake) just came up a month ago. Discussions are moving along, but I can't do anything with this MR issue as I wouldn't want to give her any rights, nor would I put my partner at risk getting involved in this.
I faced the same situation, I was offered a partnership in my firm. It is EXACTLY why I pushed the D through. I can't tell you what to do, but I can say that personally when faced with the same situation divorce was the only reasonable answer.
Do I do this and hope that along the way she realizes and changes her mind?
No, if you do it then do it because it's what's right for YOU. It likely will not bring her back.
Do I just grab the reins, push forward and make the D happen? Or do I just sit, practice DB and wait?
Financially, this could open the door back to where my kids and myself would be in a way better place.
I think you already answered your question. Your W is out of the picture, so what is best for YOU and your KIDS?
I dislike this very much anotherstander but I also agree.
I'm sure something is coming on her end. I can just feel her tension rising and her mounting frustration to get something moving, although she will do nothing (like get a job or move out) to move this thing along.
Interesting days ahead.
Validate, don't over react, don't react much at all if possible!
Couldn't sleep last night.
Just concerned on my next steps.
Am I doing what is right for myself and my family and how will my W be involved (in or out)? I know this isn't my choice presently, but could be quickly.
Is there a way by waiting that my MR might be saved?
Would asking her to do the 2 day intensive with Michelle be a good or bad idea?
Nothing good or bad happened last night.
W is detaching more so I left her alone and watched a movie with my D. GREAT TIME! and we got to chat a bit as well. I really love my kids. I think the problem is it was a bit of a sappy romance movie that reminded me a lot of my MR and the happiness for the past and sadness for the present.
Got up, worked out a little extra, and here plugging away trying to figure this out.
Yeah. Dont watch sappy romantic flicks right now. Its like listening to sad music. It just pulls you back into that wallowing mindset.
I think we are in a similar space. Dont work on trying to save the MR right now. It is pointless. You dont control that. Work on trying to improve yourself, your body, your attitude, your relationship with your kids. Those are all things you can control. It sounds great that you got to spend quality time with the D.
Definitely do not invite the W to a 2 day intensive. Do not invite her to anything. If she is going to come back to the R, she has to want to do it. It has to come from her, not from you.
In terms of waiting, who knows. That is a personal call. Just remember to use the time to work on yourself.
Hang in there!
Is there a way by waiting that my MR might be saved?
Would asking her to do the 2 day intensive with Michelle be a good or bad idea?
Answers in order:
No one knows.
This would be seen as pursuit, so you should wait until she is ready to consider reconciliation.
To expand on the first answer. Giving up on your MR will almost certainly end it. In fact, this is the most common outcome, where the LBS finally has had enough of waiting, being in limbo, and hurting that they finally through 180s, GAL, detachment and improving their own self worth decide it is time to move on, so they initiate the D and move forward with it.
So yes, waiting can eventually save your MR, but there is no guarantee and a lot of hard work, DBing properly, and continued hurting that have to be gone through to get there with, and this is the rub, NO GUARANTEE of saving it.
So your choice is to end it yourself, or waiting as long as you can with no guarantee of saving it.
F this is hard.
It seems you are damned if you do and damned if you don't
JS, yes but that is because you can't control your WAS. All you can do is DB like a maniac and give your WAS incentive to come back to the MR.
F this is hard.
It seems you are damned if you do and damned if you don't
Until you drop the rope. Then it's success if you do and success if you don't. That's when you turn the corner, when you realize you CAN and WILL thrive no matter what adversity is thrown your way. This is a defining moment in your life, it wasn't your choice and it's painful but YOU HAVE CONTROL. Time to remake yourself. What would your life need to look like where you would want to change your handle from JustSad to MotherF'ingHappy? DO THAT.
OK,
VERY perplexed ad pissed.
I had some notes in an unsent email for our mediation appointment. NOTHING damning or anything, but for some reason, after I was asleep, something from my draft box got sent to myself (where I had addressed it) so someone did it.
Also, when pulling up my photo gallery, the order in which the photos were had been changed (a click to see which ones were most recent).
So, I guess my W went through my phone.
There is absolutely nothing there for her to solidify her suspicion I am seeing someone else (again, I am not). But just weird that she would spend a bunch of time going through everything and then not change it back. I get the saved email being sent, wrong button and you are screwed.
Was she looking for dirt on me?
Why would she do this?
She has never shown the slightest inclination of jealousy or mistrust ever, so this is new (of course she never accused me of seeing anyone else either).
In addition, I did snoop a little after discovering this. My W hasn't unfriended me from FB, but she has restricted me where I won't see all of her posts and/or her relationship status, etc. I don't know if she has changed it or not, but I do know that she just changed that this morning.
I minor thing, I know, but this coupled with the phone thing is just weird. And again, I know that this roller coaster is a little crazy and unpredictable.
Thanks for the feedback everyone!
F this is hard.
It seems you are damned if you do and damned if you don't
Expect the worst, hope for the best, and "Act As If".
You can do those things, certainly.
confirmed my W went through my phone.
Any suggestions on how to confront or handle this?
confirmed my W went through my phone.
Any suggestions on how to confront or handle this?
Let it go. This is actually a really good sign. This shows she is interested. My W wouldn't go through my phone if I left it unlocked with a sign pointing to it saying "Free looks here!" while she was in her wayward period. So the fact your wife looked shows she cares about what you are doing.
Yeah, I wish my W gave a flying F what I was doing!
But I would definitely put a new screen lock on your phone.
So, I guess my W went through my phone.
Don't say anything to her about it, but do password protect your phone. She WILL try and snoop again, and imagine how her head will spin when she sees this new level of protection! She'll go crazy wondering what you are trying to "hide". Put some pressure on her for a change.
My W hasn't unfriended me from FB, but she has restricted me where I won't see all of her posts and/or her relationship status, etc. I don't know if she has changed it or not, but I do know that she just changed that this morning.
Sounds like she did unfriend you, so now all you can see is the "public" portion of her profile. Look at her profile on FB and if it says "add friend" then she has unfriended you. There is "unfriending" where you can still see the person's public profile, then there is blocking where you can't see anything at all.
W admitted to going through my phone last evening.
She almost apologized.
Simply said she was sorry since that was way out of character for her to do that. Not that she was sorry for actually doing it.
We spoke for a bit on communication and such. Validated her thoughts but didn't excuse the action by saying "we used to talk about everything, I can understand by us not communicating as much you would have questions about what I am doing.
I didn't ask "if you don't care about me or us, why would you do this?" or anything like that. She tried to turn it to her advantage saying "this just proves how toxic we are and why we should not be together". I simply said again that whatever she has to do to justify her actions in her own mind are her choice.
She is struggling with this and it shows in her mood swings, sleep habits, now snooping, detaching, etc. Couldn't talk long yesterday due to a migraine, couldn't sleep and she got up at 4 this morning with neck pain so I imagine she will be taking a nap later on this afternoon.
This is only going to get worse as she pushes this forward. One of the things she saw on my phone were my own mediation notes to myself as I was putting them together. Nothing bad and of course most were slanted in my direction (don't you always go in asking for more than what you will settle for). I'm glad she saw that, maybe that will wake her up a little bit about how real this will be.
I cut off the conversation pretty quickly last evening so as to not let it get out of control. She needs to stew on this for awhile.
Again, DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT SHE SAYS. She snooped on your phone, that is a good thing. She cared enough to want to snoop. Her "this just proves how toxic we are and why we should not be together" is hogwash. There is nothing toxic about spouses wanting to look through their spouses phone. It may not be the healthiest of activities, but then you MR isn't healthy right now.
Thanks!
I do not believe anything she says and mostly don't believe anything she is doing.
She did not "unfriend" me on facebook, just merely restricted my access. Ok, I'm fine with that. She is forcing herself down this road and struggling with her decision.
For me, stay the course, GAL, validate and move forward however it may be.
So, I had to do a factory reset since I messed up and did the new security measures wrong on my phone. Lost all my pictures unfortunately, but that was about the extent of the damage. While walking through, carrier went to just reverify my information and asked who was authorized to make purchases on the account. My account, and I had added W as an authorized person. Went ahead and took her off so she couldn't buy, upgrade, or bind us to something else. Unfortunately, they immediately sent her a text to that affect.
She texts and mentions that "whatever that means, I was removed". She said then "why don't you just call and set up the mediation appointment it would be easier". Responded back and totally answered and asked another question. Let her do it!
Yep, let her do it. I wouldn't lift a finger.
Hi JS, reading your sitch it seems to me like your W is really unsure about the D, she says things and doesnt follow through. Your DBing might be having a huge impact on her although it may not seem so to you. In my case H has set up mediation and keeps following up on things with great urgency, still very set on finishing up the D ASAP. So i would say there is still hope for you. Why did you decide on mediation versus her filing? Is it only for financial reasons? Mediation will get the D finalized much sooner than you contesting it, is the timeline not something you are particular about?
Arsh,
Thanks for weighing in. I always love perspective, questions and insight into this crazy journey that we are unfortunately going through or have experienced. I do believe that my W is struggling very much to remain committed and justified in her decision to end our MR. I had a good weekend. I think the whole family did as well. W and I had very little interaction, but when we did it was brief and good. I think she enjoyed her space, and also that she had a good day (rare for her with all her medical issues, etc.). On Sunday there was a very brief run in regarding a situation where she asked me if I could do something. She did not like the way that I responded, even though the answer was "yes". She badgered on for a few minutes and I finally asked her "I have answered you 5 times that yes I will do this, this is no an argument, and I don't understand why you want to persist when I have already said yes". She went on to say that this is the reason we have to D. Funny, a small question for a task with which I said yes to and that is the reason??
Again, her painting the picture the way she wants.
Reason for mediation would only be financial. A's cost way too much. I do not know if that can even be avoided at all as my W is still in her fog phase and hasn't had reality hit her as to the real world, costs, jobs, etc. I believe this is going to get much worse in the coming days and weeks. Unfortunately, especially from the guidance I have received here (shouts out to all of you!) that my W has to experience this in her own way. I cannot "save" her any longer. As Sandi2 put it, she fired me awhile ago from that job. She has to dip her toes in the water and find out that it really is hot lava!
I am very aware of the timeline. Unfortunately, I am experiencing some issues that could require a relocation, job opportunity with equity and the ability to gt myself and my children back to a better quality of life for our futures. Whether W wants to be a part or not, she is on her own timeline. W is really pushing for the mediation appointment. I am agreeable as all of the mediation companies I have read have said they give no advice legal, counseling, or otherwise and their only position is to try to mediate issues to an agreeable solution. ALL ask that you have mostly all of your issues resolved prior to going in. My W has nothing worked out. We had an hour discussion one afternoon and we accomplished 2 issues regarding the kids.
She is even at the point of saying to me last week "you make the appointment". I told her again this weekend, you check their availability and then we can fit then in when we both can be there. She needs to do some heavy lifting and it is not going to be fun for her. At any time, if I feel this is going bad or if I need to, I can always L up. She did file in February and withdrew it the next week. The mediation is not court ordered and neither of us have filed yet.
Got in a bunch of miles this weekend and feel good to the start of a new week. I'm sure it will be full of adventures.
Reason for mediation would only be financial. A's cost way too much. I do not know if that can even be avoided at all as my W is still in her fog phase
I am very aware of the timeline. Unfortunately, I am experiencing some issues that could require a relocation, job opportunity with equity and the ability to gt myself and my children back to a better quality of life for our futures. Whether W wants to be a part or not, she is on her own timeline.
Would it be possible for you to continue with your relocation and settling the kids in while your W still makes up her mind about the D? Let her worry about it, I am in my own DB infancy stage but putting your life on hold for this to finalize need not happen. Carry on with your plans, but plan just for yourself and the kids, she should be on her own. It should be that you and the kids are going on life's jolly ride and she can stay back and decide if she wants to catch up or drop out.
As and when she decides, she can set up mediation and everything else without you having to do any of it.
Sometimes I wish my H was so unsure, it would at least give me some time. He is now like a speeding train crushing everyone in his way to the D station.
I would gladly agree to that as I believe this would give her an out in her decision and the fresh start might be a new beginning for all of us. I am not banking on this, but it is a possibility. Most of the problem comes with the business. If I sign everything and my W and I don't have everything worked out, she has some rights to the equity portion at that time. Life is definitely not all about money, but I don't want to get wrapped up in some long D or litigation or forced to liquidate something that would then put me and the kids in a worse position.
Really thought W was going to push for things yesterday. Sometimes you can just feel "the talk" coming on. But nothing happened last night. Quiet evening, good run late yesterday. Even watched a little tv with the W. She actually got up and got us both a snack and made sure to let me know ( as she placed it in between us) that it was for both of us. I'm sure the loops and drops on the roller coaster are coming and I am preparing and prepared for them so I don't get sucked in a react. I am not waiting on her either. As you see, I am searching for way to improve myself, my life and my children's lives.
JS, avoid initiating R discussions. If she does just listen and validate. My W came back to the MR once I stopped initiating R talks, and we just had fun (her words). Not sure it works with everyone's W but it can't hurt to try.
Thanks Steve! I avoid (or do my best as I make mistakes) initiating any talk of our R.
Funny you mention the fun word. It is one thing I told my W several months ago that ALL (kids included) of us just need to have some fun and enjoy life.
Question on that. If we are supposed to have fun, and I would love that. How do I approach her to do something together without it seeming like pursuit? Do I say something like "I'm going to go and see this movie, would you like to join me?" or "I think we both need to get out without the kids, let's go to dinner." Just looking for thoughts and ideas.
So desperately need fun!!!! It would be magnificent to see her and I relaxed, out and laughing together.
Still db'ing, Steve, you just gave me a moment to reflect.
So yeah, just make a suggestion. Also, if you got out of the habit of doing things with the family, get back into it.
One of the things I did in Jan. and Feb. was started going to my daughter's HS basketball games with wife and daughter. (My D didn't play this year as a freshman, though she played from 5-8th grade, though the HS coach is working on her to join the team.) At first my W was resistant to it, but as I remain consistent that I was going she finally accepted it, and then embraced it.
So yeah, on a Saturday morning say "we should all go here and do this" and see if she is willing. The nice thing about a suggestion is it gives you wiggle room. If you don't want to go without her, then there is no pressure to. But if you decide you and the kids are still going to go without her then you have that option too.
But the fun is more than just going to do things, it is the conversation you have throughout the day. Text her funny little things that happen at work, or with the kids. No response necessary.
Some of that is slight pursuit, but your sitch has moved to a point where a little pursuit may not hurt. Keep your finger on the pulse, if you see her retreating, then stop doing those things. One of the things I did was I would call her with a non-logistic, fun topic each morning around 10am. Texting works just as well. It got to where she came to expect it. And while initially she was "why are you calling?" afraid I was starting a R discussion, eventually she embraced it and I sometimes I couldn't get her off the phone. (That was a good feeling by the way, after weeks of her not being interested in talking to me.)
That kind of pursuit is not appropriate for most people's sitches, but if she is making you TV watching snacks, it might work in yours.
Thanks Steve.
I will work on those suggestions and hopefully there can be something I can come across that will work for us.
I think the daily communication thing is too early. Right now, I believe she has to still come to grips and get out of her fog and see reality and realize that I can and will make it without her. I, of course, would rather not, but I know I can.