Hi all,
I am been on this site for about a week for guidance and it has been very helpful. I have read I think almost all the newbie threads and hopefully the DB book will arrive today. Decided to register to have some support has I have been doing well (I think) but have moments. I spiraled last night and this morning and stuck in a rut. Here is some background on my situation.
Me - 33
WW/WAW - 30
Together - 5 yrs
Married - 1.5 yrs
no kids, 1 dog
Bomb dropped - 4/6/18 (EA and PA confessed)
MC - 4/9/18 (2 sessions)
Currently living to together, but she is looking for an apt
Breakdown:
We met online, moved in after about 9 months, fell in love. She is the type of person that leaps before looking, and I more controlling (planning, prep etc). She really is the love of my life, my everything. We have had some communication issues in the past and she has said things like "we do things together, but I don't feel like you are there with me".
Bomb:
The last week in March I could tell something was up. As a response I was careful to ask how she was feeling, what was wrong, if she wanted to talk. Friday morning 4/6/18 in bed before work, we were making progress and I was getting through to her, connecting. Then she said it, I am seeing somebody else and slept with him. It was somebody from work, a co-worker. That night, she refuses to come home, not saying where she was staying (turns out was with him) and most likely because of my pursuit/chase/demands (as I have learned here).
She finally comes home Sunday and we talk. It started as a EA and then a PA last week, and this weekend. She wasn't getting what she needed from me. She says she has really strong feelings for him. We get to a better place, decide to go to counseling. I give her space for a few days and I stay at my parents. We go to individual and marriage counseling over the next 2 weeks. It starts getting better, I realize my controlling tendencies, she realizes she didn't handle it the best way even though she bottled up how unhappy she was. Weekends are wonderful, we started making love again things were hopeful - long road but we could get through it.
Then Bomb 2, she came home on 4/27 after staying out for a work party and said she slept with him again. I am devastated but keep my cool. I tell her it is probably best if she moves out since she isn't sure if she can sever the connection with him. The next day we were supposed to go to her friends wedding celebration and I refuse to go. She gets in a bad place as it all hits her, she has to find an apartment, drive to DC alone. I slide back and offer to go with her. We have another great weekend, deep talks and good connection. Sunday she says she will quit work if she has to, she wants to make this work, shes love me. We agree to take it day by day over the next week, healthy (no drinks after work) and spend time together. It falls apart Tuesday night - she says she needs space b/c she still has strong feelings for him. I refuse b/c we had JUST talked about taking it day by day together. The next day she says she is going to move out b/c she needs to find herself. I ask if she wants to see other ppl to which she replies "i don't know". She also says I shouldn't wait for her and focus on myself.
That was last Wednesday, when I found this site. i read the Sandis Do/Don'ts, about a Wayward Wife, Affairs, few other threads. I realize how my pursuit, needing to fix/control and begging did not help matters/made them worse. So I immediate start to try to GAL, very limited contact with her (we have a cabin upstate where I stayed). I saw her yesterday and kept a strong, confident positive persona, aka faked it (hurting so much inside). She asked about my past few days with the dog, I asked about the apartments she has seen. Going well.
Then I feel she reached out, she was getting upset as she was seeing how life would be separated (not being able to see the dog as much, going to our cabin, not getting to go on the family trip in June, etc). I stay strong and didn't try to fix or comfort her. She asks things like "When do you want me out" - I said to be clear "I am not forcing you out, I am just respecting your decision to do so". After about an hour in the same place, I left for the (following first to say goodbye rule), wished her luck at the apartments she was seeing that day, and didn't ask who she was staying with she said she was going to stay at a friends (I am pretty sure she is staying with him - saw she bought a bottle of wine on the upper east side from our credit card bill (you can see I am starting to regress). She texted me asking for a copy of the tax return required for apartment agreements. I sent the to her, asked her if she liked the apartments and reiterated that she doesn't have to leave, i don't want her to. She replied "thank you" but she feels she needs to move out.
That brings us to this morning, I was distraught last night as I think I saw hope that DB might have been working and she was having second thoughts on moving out. When she confirmed she still wanted to move out, I spiraled. I know this may be a low point, but I can't believe she doesn't want to try to work on us, I mean 1 week ago she was with me, in our bed, committing to us. Next week, she wants to move out "to work on herself" when I am pretty sure she wants to continue the affair. I am struggling to GAL, struggling with NC.
Really hoping somebody can provide their thoughts/feedback/guidance from their experience. Not sure if I am on the right track as I want to DB the right way, but I see these glimmers with her that shows she wants to make this work, but then it disappears. I am afraid NC, 180, will make her feel less guilty and continue the affair (which is an assumption since she hasn't said she had stopped it yet).
Just very lost, sad, in disbelief
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
AJ, this is the worst thing in the world. I think there's probably a process that your wife has to go through before she can decide what she wants. She probably needs to date the other man and be free to be with him and either they'll break up at some point or she'll realize he's not as good as you and come back. This happened to my husband a few years ago and he came back after eight weeks after his affair ended but now he's having another affair and he's gone permanently from what I can see. There are both long and short-term issues to consider. There are the immediate logistical and financial considerations as well as your mental health dealing with this turmoil and then there's the long term prospect of reconciling with a cheater who may cheat again if he or she is unstable or isn't 100% committed. It's so hard. I hope this forum helps you to gain clarity on your next steps.
Thanks for the reply. I really don't know what to do first. My main concern is to try and keep her from leaving as once a spouse lives the residence, chances to R drop to like 20% or something. I've been thinking of last resort, but seeing her hurting yesterday and saying "she isn't doing great" wants me to reach out and say something like "are you open to holding off on moving out temporarily?" Thoughts? I don't want to pursue, but i feel like she is looking for hope I haven't given up (since its been over a week since a last said it).
Anybody been in this situation or recommend the best DB to have her re-think moving out? We are in NYC so it will take at least a few weeks to find and a place and move in.
Any help? Insight? Perspective?
wants me to reach out and say something like "are you open to holding off on moving out temporarily?"
You didnt break her and you can not fix her.
This will be pursuit, best to say nothing and let her come up with that idea.
AJS read the book - work on you(become a spouse only a fool would leave) and post here . There are some truly amazing people in here with incredible insights. Good luck on your journey.
This is going to hit hard. DB is not something that works in a few days.
Whatever is broken it didn't break in a few days. Not in your sitch, not in mine or any of ours. It can't be fixed in a few days. You didn't cause her to decide to cheat. BTW, she is in love with the feelings associated with a new relationship. Not necessarily the guy.
I suspect that you should read several threads about "Nice Guy Syndrome"
It's time to get tough. Restore some respect.
Think about this: No self-respecting woman wants to live with a man that allows her to cheat. Don't allow her to bounce back and forth.
Yes, she needs to leave. It is too soon for MC. Don't be afraid to establish boundaries.
Refuse to be in any love triangle.
Thanks so much for your feedback. I didn't necessarily expect results quickly, and I am almost done with the book.
She hasn't moved out yet and once she does I will have limited contact with her. She is the type of person that runs from tough love (seriously, she ran everytime I applied it), that's why I am concerned about the proper DB.
I can do the 180, but 1) how can I show her she would be crazy to leave me if I am applying tough love and 2) Once she finds an apartment, she won't even be around to give tough love.
Per one of Sandi's threads, I have to show her that the A is not tolerated (not being cold), but how to I incorporate that into tough love?
I guess that one good sign is that 1) She isn't moving in with him and 2) She mentioned she is looking for apartments with dogs in case we reconcile. Brings me back to how she runs from tough love. How do I show her the door is open if she ends the affair through tough love.
Thank you all, support here really does help get me through the day - even if I juts re-read cheat sheets, do/do nots, etc.
First, it amazing to me the number of sitchs like yours and mine that occur on or around major birthday milestones. 30, 40, 50 seem to be trigger points for a lot of Ws. SOmething flips in them and they become WWs and/or WAWs. I like that you asked her if she wanted to see other people. That showed you saw right through the "I need to find myself".
One of my favorite quotes that I found when my W said she was moving out to "find herself" was that wives do not need to get their own place to figure things out or to find themselves, they need their own place to sleep with other people.
Her response "I don't know" is classic. Same answer my wife gave to the question. It is a "the answer is yes, but that sounds too yucky to verbalize" answer.
Your biggest problem my friend is going to be understanding that you can't control her. You already said you hoped DB would have worked to get her to stay. Wrong attitude. DBing is about controlling yourself, and letting your W do what she is going to do. DBing if done in a manipulative way can't work. Ws are like horses, they can sense your fear and hesitation.
Please read cadet's links again even if you already have. Focus on the detachment thread. And the validation thread. Learn sandi's rules by heart! Put them into practice. Stop struggling with GAL and just do it. Think back to what you used to do 5 years ago and go back to it. Don't wait for her or invite her to do things, start detaching and let her feel the feeling of loss. Likely the OM is just wanting some action and isn't wanting to take her on as a dependent.
Good luck my friend, your roller coaster ride is just starting. Please keep your hands and feet in at all times because it is going to get bumpy.
Thanks for the reply. I really don't know what to do first. My main concern is to try and keep her from leaving as once a spouse lives the residence, chances to R drop to like 20% or something. I've been thinking of last resort, but seeing her hurting yesterday and saying "she isn't doing great" wants me to reach out and say something like "are you open to holding off on moving out temporarily?" Thoughts? I don't want to pursue, but i feel like she is looking for hope I haven't given up (since its been over a week since a last said it).
Anybody been in this situation or recommend the best DB to have her re-think moving out? We are in NYC so it will take at least a few weeks to find and a place and move in.
Again you are doing it wrong. DB isn't about controlling her!! You have to understand that. DBing is to control you and your emtions and actions. If that causes her to come around great, if not great. I am not sure where you got your 20% stat but I am calling hogwash. This forum is full of stories of Ws moving out only to eventually return and move towards R.
If she insists on going, let her. In fact, you can't stop her. To do so would be a felony. You were doing it right before, it is fine to tell her what you'd like "I'd like you to stay but I can't stop you from leaving."
As another poster said, look up Nice Guy Syndrome, you appear to have a bad case of it.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Thank you all, this forum really does help.
She actually just called because she found an apartment, wanted to tell me about it and that she has missed me the past few days. She started talking about how she has been feeling, how we shouldn't of gotten married, timing was bad, we were looking too much to the future. That she doesn't think she can love me the way I want to be loved, and that she is worried I won't be able to make her happy.
Right about here is it hit hard me that she really might be gone already. She is still wayward, but not as much as before. I kept thinking about how she described her emotional connection with this guy, how it was so natural and how we don't have that. Was really hard to hear. I stayed strong, said I'm sorry you feel that way, that is in the past, I feel differently. I am willing to work through things as those are solvable, but not as long as you are involved with another man. She said she is still confused, didn't deny continuing the affair, just need to get an apartment to have space.
Here is the kicker - She asked me to be the guarantor on the lease for her new apartment:
W: Can you sign as the guarantor for the apt I saw today?
Me: I'm sorry I am not going to do that
W (getting angrier): Why not, it doesn't really mean anything
Me: I'm see why you're frustrated, but I am not going to do that. This is your decision.
W (angrier): Wow, why can't you help me getting this apartment?
Me: I'm sorry, you are on your own.
W: Wow, I have to go (hangs up)
I text her: I'm sorry, but I am not going to help you leave me. Just have your parents sign.
No response.
At first, I felt like I did something wrong piss her off, I almost immediately questioned if I should back and agree, but I stood firm. I actually don't mind signing it (doesn't mean much in NYC), but it was more of principal here.
I am sure a lot of guys say this all the time, but I really don't think there is hope. She is moving out and continuing the affair. Just coming to terms that I think I believe her when she says she isn't sure if she is coming back because there is too much damage.
This [censored].
Well I kinda of faltered....I called her back to ask if she was okay and that I was honestly worried about her as everything as been out of character (i think this breaks every DB rule), especially having an open affair while we work through things, it was not her moral fiber. Surprisingly, it somehow broke through to her.....she isn't sure how to cope with this, the too much damage has been done and she wanted to make it easier for me (I know I am not supposed to believe it, but it was the first time I heard her speak genuinely in weeks).
We re-hatched some of our past problems to which I 1) owned up to and 2) said that is in the past and we are both different people now and going forward. I loved her and always will, and will always have the what if because we never had a shot to heal from this and try to grow stronger (showed her the door).
That is when she said let me think on it and we can talk tomorrow.
I know this is all anti-DB, but I genuinely had a moment that hit me like a ton of bricks that I don't want to put the effort in and I was done and wanted to move on. I will let you know how tomorrow goes, but I expecting her not to change and that is fine by me.
I choose not to DB because I don't think she is worth it. I deserve better.
Well that didn't last long....spiraled hard and pursued via text......Tomorrow is a new day, not sure where my mind is.
AJS please look up Nice Guy Syndrome. You handled it great when she called about the lease UNTIL you texted her afterward! Her anger was a good sign. Unfortunately, your Nice Guy Syndrome couldn't handle her being angry.
Telling her your are done and moving on is not anti-DB. Spiraling hard and pursuing via text is. If you just stopped following up with texts after you did a great job verbally you'd be way better off. Look up Nice Guy Syndrome. I am afraid you will continue to thwart yourself until you get a grip on it.
Thanks Steve. I did look it up and hard to read that it is me to a fault. Worse is I know it and having trouble adjusting. I find when I am in a place like I am now with my life falling apart it comes out more.
We are supposed to talk tonight, I will re-focus on GAL regardless of what she says. Even if she is willing to end the affair, I don't know if I can trust her since she is moving out. Just feel like it is really over.
She is convinced it is not just a short term affair, that she just met somebody she got to know over the past year and genuinely thinks he can make her happier.
Read sandi's rules. Read as much from sandi as you can. She has written a lot of the mindset and behavior of wayward wives. My favorite sandi rule:
BELIEVE NOTHING SHE SAYS AND ONLY HALF OF WHAT SHE DOES.
This goes both ways. If she starts talking about staying in the marriage don't believe it. She may be manipulating you. If she talks like it is really and truly over, don't believe her.
Finally it will be over when you say it is. WWs like to keep their LBH on the hook. Sandi has written a lot about this. SHe will try to keep you her friend. She will try to keep you around when she has a need. "I need someone to put together my new TV stand, can you come do it?" You will be tempted to take her up on all of this type of thing, especially as a Nice Guy. Don't do it.
Read as much as you can here and learn as much as you can. You can do things that will increase your chances of saving your marriage. It will feel counter-intuitive, but these methods have saved hundreds if not thousands of marriages.
Thanks Steve. I am really struggling this morning, just in terms of pure pain and hurt - I think I really am starting to realize there is a good chance she is not coming back. Not debbie-downer, I just think deep down I thought she would snap out of it and come running back. I can see that is not the case. I try not to believe everything she says, but when she says she can't come back because too much damage has been done and worries about how she will be viewed by friends and family. I believe that because it seems like she shows she wants to come back but can't for that reason (not just because of the damage to our marriage).
I will re-read Sandi's posts again, but just hurting a lot right now. This forum has given me strength, but feel like 5 weeks in it is still so raw and can't see any light.
Thanks Steve. I am really struggling this morning, just in terms of pure pain and hurt - I think I really am starting to realize there is a good chance she is not coming back. Not debbie-downer, I just think deep down I thought she would snap out of it and come running back. I can see that is not the case. I try not to believe everything she says, but when she says she can't come back because too much damage has been done and worries about how she will be viewed by friends and family. I believe that because it seems like she shows she wants to come back but can't for that reason (not just because of the damage to our marriage).
I will re-read Sandi's posts again, but just hurting a lot right now. This forum has given me strength, but feel like 5 weeks in it is still so raw and can't see any light.
5 weeks is like 5 milliseconds in these situations. This is still so raw. You have many more weeks of roller-coastering. Read other peoples' sitches. Months in they still spiral.
But whether you can see it yet or not there is light at the end of the tunnel. Trust me on this. You will come out on the other side bigger and better. Whether she is still there or not, you will be fine.
Thanks for the perspective Steve.
Quick question for all, looks like she is moving out in a few weeks. Do I help her move /pack or do I refuse? Instinct says no, but saw the article on this said that a guy did and it helped long term. Thoughts?
First I just want to emphasize Steve's point about time, these situations NEVER resolve quickly. It is very unusual for things to turn around in less than a year, it has happened, but not often. 1 to 3 years is a more realistic time frame.
Quick question for all, looks like she is moving out in a few weeks. Do I help her move /pack or do I refuse? Instinct says no, but saw the article on this said that a guy did and it helped long term. Thoughts?
You can offer to help her, but if she doesn't want your help then don't push yourself on her. I offered to help my ex but she refused so I let it go. I did end up going over there to help set up new furniture later (after she figured out it was a bigger task than she thought). But for many WAS's this is the first step into the "independence" that they've been craving, so they don't even want your help.
Well she is officially delusional and wants to end our marriage. She texted me the following after I asked her if she wanted dinner when she came home.
WW: I don't want to come home b/c I am afraid of being coerced to getting back together.
WW: I am sorry for what happened and for all you are through
WW: But I think we've been moving on and I don't want to take a step back and start over
Me: I don't know who what to say to you
Me: You are the one having an affair, refusing to end it and won't give out marriage a chance. You can't even have the decency to do this in front of me. You really have shown me who you are. If you want to end our marriage via text during an affair, so be it. I hope you can live with this.
WW: I can discuss splitting things up later this week.
I guess this marriage is over. She couldn't even show her face in our apartment. She just ran away to another man and sign a lease on a new apartment.
Unbelievable. I don't even know how I feel.
Sorry man. Time to go to LRT.
Quick update:
Pretty sure I hit rock bottom at 5 am this morning. Just paralyzed in bed for 5 hours. I sent her an email early this morning which wasn't exactly pursuing, but more of that state of things since we didn't talk last night. I stayed "strong" and cordial throughout the email and she called me around noon.
The call went well, as she finally confirmed she is officially "seeing" the OM. It hurt, but in many ways it help deliver the message: she is leaving and moving on with this other person. She was confused when we discussed previous MC, and kept saying "idk" when saw our potential future. I didn't falter and restated there is nothing to talk about if you are having an affair. She just said "well he still is in the picture" to which I said "ok, then that's that". She is staying with the OM until she moves in June 1, that hurt to hear. We discussed splitting up finances to which I could tell made her very nervous as she clearly didn't think this through.
Today hurt a lot, but I feel like I finally have a "decision" on her part. I think being in limbo land on D-Day (4/6/18) was just torture. Really wish I had found this site on or shortly after D-Day to at the very least shorter the suffering. But it is what it is. I've complete put it out of my head for any hope of a R with her as she seems pretty sure of herself. So I had a successful night GAL, although obviously still a lot of pain. Thoughts creep in randomly that brings up memories or habits that remind me of her, but I am hopeful to just put time behind this god awful event.
Hang in there. I got the BD on the exact same day as you 4/6/18 and I know how tough it has been for me.
Focus on yourself. She is going to do what she is going to do. Connect with friends and family. Get out of the house. Exercise. At least those are the things that are helping me.
Thanks for the perspective Steve.
Quick question for all, looks like she is moving out in a few weeks. Do I help her move /pack or do I refuse? Instinct says no, but saw the article on this said that a guy did and it helped long term. Thoughts?
My thoughts on this are to never do the work of the WAS to help them walk away. I am big proponent of NOT hindering them, but not helping either. We recently had another poster who's WAW asked him to cosign on her lease for her new apartment. He rightly refused. WASs will occasionally ask the LBS to file for D. Or do other work. Every sitch is different, but let me say this: if you are just helping her pack because you think it will later "help" then that is manipulative and she will see through it. If you do help her pack do it out of love and wanting her to be happy and no other reason.
"Today hurt a lot, but I feel like I finally have a "decision" on her part. I think being in limbo land on D-Day (4/6/18) was just torture."
AJS, you are still too focused on her, and you are still trying to rush this.
On the first point, there is no FINAL DECISION on her part. Read the stories here of WASs that have left, divorced their LBS, and "moved on" only to come back later to pursue their LBS. If the LBS is open to it R is always a possibility. She is making this decision now, but that doesn't mean in 6 months, 1 year, 2 years or more from now she won't want to come back.
Second, I am almost 5 months in and most of the experienced experts here will tell you that even that is very early. These things take weeks, months, and years to play out. Are you generally an impatient person? BDing takes patience. It takes not just 1 night of not talking but sometimes weeks and months of no contact. If you are not patient you will continue thwart the BD efforts you are making. And yes emailing her first is pursuit!!
Thanks everybody for your support and responses. Whenever I feel bad I come here for strength. I know I am a very sensitive person and having a really hard time with this, will break into tears and sob for 10 mins every other hour.
I think I am a bit impatient, and do not like open ended things (part of my control problem- which I am working on). I know DBing takes time, and even if she were to come back 6 months or 1 year, I just don't know if I want to wait that long (understand DB motivated to GAL and not "wait"). I keep having the thought, can I just file for D and be done with this? Being separated while she is already seeing somebody else is just too much pain to bear. I keep picturing them together, and not just sexually, but getting drinks outside, cuddling, etc....just sends me spirally.
I am honestly scared over the few weeks. I'd prefer to have no contact with her at all to start getting over her, but we have to figure out things like finances, what she is taking, paying our mortgage for our vacation home upstate etc.
Quick question, my wife just texted me she will be home for the first time in a week (been staying with the OM).
Do you think it is smart to not be here and stay somewhere else, or put my chin up and act as if?
I'm a newbie, so take my advice with a grain of salt. For me it would depend on how I am going to react. If I knew I could keep it together and be detached but warm, I would hang around. Otherwise I would split.
Quick question, my wife just texted me she will be home for the first time in a week (been staying with the OM).
Do you think it is smart to not be here and stay somewhere else, or put my chin up and act as if?
I'd say your real choice is whether or not to let her come back. You're not the one who left.
I think she is just coming back to pick up some clothes and head back to her new bf.
I am having a lot of trouble. I can't stop crying, i have fits of rage. I just am in denial and disbelief. How can she do this? How can she do this so easily? Literally already with somebody else?
Please help. I am really fading to stay strong.
Hang in there. There are better days ahead. I remember curling up on the floor and crying like a baby after my wife left after the BD and I had told her I couldn't stay in the house with her. Focus on taking care of yourself. Find something you love to do, or someone in your life you can really talk to.
Also, it seems like it might not be a good idea for you to be there when she comes to pick stuff up. You need to put some distance in.
You can do this.
Oh man you are in it go for a walk as much as possible read some books find a meeting any meeting just get out of the house dont drink it makes it worse find a bookstore and spend alot of time there find all you can read just survive for now I feel for you
Someone on here recomended mindulfulness meditation to break me out of the mental loops it has helped some
Find All of Sandis threads on here and read them to learn what you are dealing with there are tools but you got to get your mind set to do the work
Thanks all. This morning was not as bad as previous mornings, but still unsure how to handle.
I am pretty sure my WS affair is an exit affair that has been a EA for 6 months and PA for 2 months. I re-read all of Sandi's rules/posts, but also saw on other similar sites that LRT/180 can accelerate the WS departure when an exit affair is involved. One of the posters who was a WS exit affair said the distance made it easier for her to leave. It seems to be right as when I did a 180 last week when I saw her, the next day is where she really turned away and starting staying with the OM.
Going to the gym now to keep healthy, but still haven't decided if I will be here or not when she comes home. I am just scared doing the LRT/180 as it is like admitting the potential last few times I could be interacting with the love of my life (no kids, so no regular visits).
You need to Detach completely and move on with your life. Your wife may not come back. Even if she does she has been quite wayward and you may not be happy. I suggest that in your current situation, you should read book called mindfulness(Barnes & Nobles $7.99). This really really helps. You should start GAL. Take 1 hour at a time and slowly move to 1 day at a time. Dont idle your mind. Try keeping yourself busy all the time. Right now your emotions are all over the place. So you cant think straight. 1 second you feel everything is fine. Next second you feel your dreams and your world come crashing down. This is absolutely normal for anybody in your situation. Sodont feel bad. Just let her go off ur thoughts and do what you need to by reading activities etc.. it will take a few weeks for you to start seeing some changes. Focus on yourself and only you. Leave her alone.
The other choice is to accept the exit affair and prolong the agony.
Look she is going to do what she is going to do. Delaying the inevitable won't stop it from being an exit affair. Further the emphasis is on exit not affair. In other words het exit plan has been there long before the affair. The fact she was looking for an exit is what allowed the affair.
So while every sitch is unique be careful not to dismiss DBing. All of us go through that thinking in the beginning because it is counter intuitive. But you are stool focusing on her whom you can't control instead yourself whom you can.
Detach. 180. GAL. Be the best you that you can be.
Speaking of GAL, what have you done recently to gAL?
Remember there is a beautiful saying taken out of the movie Indecent Proposal - If you want something badly in life, you have to simply let it go! If it comes back, it is always yours. If it doesn't, it was never yours to begin with!!
I stand by this statement truly from my heart which is why i decided to let go of my wife. And there is absolutely a lot of meaning to this statement. You should not be afraid doing LRT /180. Simply do it without having second thoughts. You have nothing to loose now. It is difficult, hard and unfair. Very few things in life are harder than this if you acheive it. You will have learnt a lot by the time this is all over.
Ok, I think I maybe I should't stick around just because I am not in a strong place. I have been trying to GAL - exercising, seeing new friends, hanging with new ones, reading "untethered soul" (i'll get mindfulness right away). Been tough just because I am exhausted, only sleeping 4-5 hrs per night max.
Is it normal to just have thoughts of filing for D right away? I love her despite what she has done, but I feel like the pain is so overwhelming I am just desperate for a clear end so I know there is only one way. I feel like DBing (knowing means to get healthy and focusing on me) is not letting me accept this completely.
Yes it is absolutely normal for the LBS to being feel betrayed and wanting to file Divorce right away. DO NOT DO THAT until you have clearly made up your mind and decided 100% that you dont want her anymore.
I felt the same too in the knitial few weeks when everything was unknown. Let your spouse do allthe D work. However,if you decide down the line that you want to give up you may let your spouse know to speed up the process.
For so.e LBS DBing may not be the right choice becoz they want things under their control and not to give into spouse tactics. However for you to make that choice as well, you need some time andspace and take 1 thing at a time. DO NOT RUSH YOUR DECISIONS! You dont want to regret later.
Send me a text nine three seven three four three five seven one five. May be we can just discuss ur current state of affairs and Dos and Donts
As Nutcrac said, it is completely normal to vacillate between wanting so badly to save your MR and to wanting to throw in the towel and move on. It is part of the emotional rollercoaster ride. Fear, sorrow, anger, rinse, repeat.
You need to take some time though. Because any decision you make will likely be based on one of those three stages at this point. Someone here told me several weeks ago, when I was talking about how awful limbo was, that limbo was the gift of time. You should view it that way.
So I suggest you do two things. Stop fighting the emotions so hard and just experience them. And really ramp up your GAL efforts. Stay busy, even if it is just walking. When you feel afraid, walk. When you are sad, walk. When you are angry, walk fast!
Trust me it does get better.
Steve85,
I wanted to know your point of view when things stabilize after emotions stabilize. I assume, when your senses are back, your spouse will remain in your memories no matter how much you have gone out of your way to GAL?
Do you agree?
Steve85,
I wanted to know your point of view when things stabilize after emotions stabilize. I assume, when your senses are back, your spouse will remain in your memories no matter how much you have gone out of your way to GAL?
Do you agree?
If you are asking if you will ever completely forgive her? No. That is not how the memory works. Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind explored the phenomenon of trying to forget a painful end to a relationship.
But GAL is especially for the emotional rollercoaster time period of a breakup. Keeping your mind off of the breakup helps even out the emotions. When I was in rollercoaster phase when I would get engaged at work, or listening to ebooks on the commute, or going to to gun range to sight in a rifle, or concentrating on the workout I was doing, or -enter GAL activity here- then I could forget that I was in the fear or sad or anger phase.
Do you ever really forget? No, but if you try hard enough you can get your mind off of it.
As far as sleep, sleeping pills. Seriously. A dude has to sleep.
Thanks. But if your spouse is a WAW, ( Not WW) dont you think she will experience the same feelings like what the LBS faces?
Thanks. But if your spouse is a WAW, ( Not WW) dont you think she will experience the same feelings like what the LBS faces?
No. Remember most WAWs have been planning their exit for 2 years or more. Their feelings for LBH are very much gone by time BD strikes. After BD my wife are and slept without a problem. I however had no appetite and could sleep only an hour or two at a time.
I'm trying, even GAL is not having much success yet getting my mind over her. I am focused a lot on the detachment thread as I seemed to have really been dependent on her, or at least my happiness.
It's strange, my wife told me last week that she isn't sleeping either, that this whole thing makes her sick......reallly??!??! She is the one with the power to stop this whole thing! Just so stupid, the whole thing.
I get everybody deserves to be happy, but an exit affair really is a cowardly way to get out of a marriage. What boggles my mind, she was SOOOO unhappy for the past few years, but yet in February (3 months ago) we had long conversations on trying for a baby and she got off birth control! I mean come on. I still think it is a exit affair, but I hope off that fact that she was just having some crisis and in a fog. Pretty sure this relationship with the OM has been a EA for at least 6 months, and physical for 3 months.
Believe nothing she says and only half of what she does.
Thanks guys. She called tonight and we spoke for an hour. We naturally got into what happened, it was good, probably pursued a bit, but was more of a discussion of how we felt (not a temp check). She more of less confessed it had been a EA for a while (whenever she and I were fighting) and then after a bigger fight in March she had the PA.
She did kept saying there is no way she can get back together with me, as she tried during MC (which she didn't bc she was still in contact with OM) as she fell in love with the OM. I said I understand, and didn't downplay their connection (per Sandi's thread). Just said its sad your throwing away a marriage for a what if, instead of throwing away a what if to save a marriage. Told her I was moving on and good luck.
Honestly a lot there. Something clicked with me in a good way, that I am not sure I could ever take her back knowing she let herself develop feelings for another man just because she wasn't happy at home. Not that I am deciding anything, but I really did have this thought of "I am not sure I could be with somebody that acts like that".
I'll let the experts weigh in here. Just seems strange you'd come here knowing what DBing entails and then not want to follow the guidelines of DBing, nor even if you want o save your marriage.
I assume you came here, and read DR in order to try and save your marriage.
Let me ask you a question, what would you do if she showed up tomorrow, apologized for everything and said she wanted to work on the MR?
I think if I had found DB earlier or ideally DDay it could have been different, but by the time I got to this site to now, not much has changed anyway, and in many ways it got worse - she had said when I gave her space (my 180) it made it easier to go to him as she thought I was giving up on us. Also, I am not sure she is a wayward spouse, I think she realized she didn't want to be with me after she developed feelings for this person. Perhaps I am taking all DBing wrong, and I know it hasn't been long, but I really don't know if it would have made a difference.
If she did turn around and say she was to reconcile and try MR, I would set strict terms for her to agree to and follow. I would probably tell her to stay in her apartment until I felt real progress was made and I could trust her again.
AJS, you still believe everything she says! Stop it. If you had not given her space she'd have blamed that on her going to OM. Listen she is always going to do what she wants. And then find a way to blame you for it. Your NGS can't handle it.
What I'm hearing from you is that this is all too difficult and you can't handle it. And that is okay. DBing isn't for everyone. However there is no magic bullet that will fix your MR. You now need to work on detachment because you're going to end up divorced. And being emotionally attached to your ex-wife is patently unhealthy.
Good luck with moving forward.
Thanks Steve. You might be right, just afraid at making mistakes and srtuggling with long temr and accceptable of a split/divroce.
Hi AJS1285.......mind if I just call you AJS?
. I use to respond quickly to a newcomer's first thread, but I've learned that they aren't always ready to hear what I have to say. Anyway, I have been trying to give you a little time. I will touch some places throughout your thread and respond. As far as I know, there are only two former wayward wives who are here trying to pay forward some help. The wayward wife is something that is very difficult for a H to understand. I mean, he doesn't really understand the mindset of a
normal woman......how's he going to understand one that apparently flipped somewhere in mid stream? Who is this stranger and what has happened to the woman you married?
I have experienced being a WW (which was pretty tame compared to what I have read), and I have observed many couples IRL and have had D throughout my family. I have tried to study everything I can find about the wayward mindset. There is surprisingly a commonality in all wayward wives. Although every sitch may vary, and every woman is an individual.......the likeness in even the things they say look as if they all read from the same script. Occasionally, I may give just a tad different advice, especially if things start coming out later in the story that wasn't present at first.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound as if I am an expert at this stuff, b/c I am not. I am just a former WW who has hung around to help, wherever I can. One thing you might consider, and expect, is that my viewpoint and the viewpoints of some other LBS may not always blend. So, take it for whatever you think it's worth. I will have to say, however, there are several H's in Newcomers that have caught on quickly to the wiles of a WW.
I first joined the board when I was still wayward and was trying to decide what I wanted to do. Although DR/DB seems more geared for the couples who want to save their M, I was very fortunate to received some wonderful mentoring that talked very straight to me......which I liked. My H and I are still together, thanks to that help I received. And before you start asking me what did my H do to get me to change my mind, I will tell you that it was not my H who came to the board. Whether you are the spouse that wants out of the M, or the one who wants to save it.......the spouse who comes to the board gets the advice for him/her. It wasn't about what my H did, b/c he wasn't here getting the tools he needed. It was about what I did. (Just thought I'd save a little time, there).
I'm sending this post on to you, b/c the next one will probably be quite long.
I have a tendency to try to cover too much at a time,
Thanks Steve. You might be right, just afraid at making mistakes and srtuggling with long temr and accceptable of a split/divroce.
There is no question of any struggle here. You need to start detachment ASAP..do LRT ignore your WW. Acceptance will fall itself in place as time goes by and you become emotionally stronger.
We agree to take it day by day over the next week, healthy (no drinks after work) and spend time together. It falls apart Tuesday night - she says she needs space b/c she still has strong feelings for him. I refuse b/c we had JUST talked about taking it day by day together. The next day she says she is going to move out b/c she needs to find herself. I ask if she wants to see other ppl to which she replies "i don't know". She also says I shouldn't wait for her and focus on myself.
It would have been a different story if you had said, "I think we should date other people, while you are finding yourself". The WW doesn't consider that her H might actually dump her and find some woman that could make him happier. It doesn't matter what words come out of her mouth, she is very selfish and very jealous. She might not want you at the moment, but she doesn't want another woman replacing her, either. Anytime she tells you she "doesn't know", it is code for keeping you on the back burner. If you started dating today, she would instantly want to know everything. WW's are very territorial.
Then I feel she reached out, she was getting upset as she was seeing how life would be separated (not being able to see the dog as much, going to our cabin, not getting to go on the family trip in June, etc)
She wasn't reaching out to you. She was missing the dog, the nice cabin, and the nice vacation trips. These are benefits that came in the M.........but they aren't
YOU. Big difference!
I said to be clear "I am not forcing you out, I am just respecting your decision to do so".
Good answer!
While I'm thinking about it, many H's have a need to reiterate something. It's usually something like how he doesn't want a D, or this is not what he wants, or how he wants to save the M, etc. Those are things he should never say twice to his WW. It is pursuit and applys emotional pressure, and I promise it turns her off faster than you could imagine.
I
I sent the to her, asked her if she liked the apartments and reiterated that she doesn't have to leave, i don't want her to. She replied "thank you" but she feels she needs to move out.
Yep, there it is. ^^^^^^^^. Well, remember for next time, don't reiterate.
My main concern is to try and keep her from leaving as once a spouse lives the residence, chances to R drop to like 20% or something. I've been thinking of last resort, but seeing her hurting yesterday and saying "she isn't doing great" wants me to reach out and say something like "are you open to holding off on moving out temporarily?" Thoughts? I don't want to pursue, but i feel like she is looking for hope I haven't given up (since its been over a week since a last said it).
I'm with Steve, IDK where you are getting your stats, but the MR I've seen reconcile, have usually followed a physical separation. It's much better than an in-house. It may take a couple of years, but the quicker you let her go and move forward building your life without her.......that time gap stands a better chance of closing faster.
She is not looking for hope in a MR with you. I want you to understand something. When a W leaves her M to be with another man, she is done with that MR. She is not looking for hope or holding out that you will swoop in with your super hero cape and go off in the land of eternal happiness. She gave up on you a long time ago. What you
imagine she thinks or feels is nothing more than your emotions wanting desperately to believe it's true. I'm sorry if I am harsher than you like, but the sooner you realize what you really have here, the faster you may actually start to turn things around.
You've been thinking of the LRT? You are in it, whether you know it or not. Whether or not you choose to be smart or stay stuck is up to you. No offense, but you can't go all melty-cheese when you see her looking like she's hurting. This is how a H gets messed up in his head, b/c he thinks she is hurting over him or she's having second thoughts. Wrong! She hurts for nobody but herself, which comes from selfishness, believing in a fantasy and not wanting to experience reality. Maybe it was beginning to feel too real for her. She doesn't want to have to choose between your dog---your cabin---your vacation trip and the OM. And, she's not going to give up OM. Yes, it would have been total pursuit. You cannot rescue her. This is her mess, she caused it, and she'll have to be the one to clean it up.
She is the type of person that runs from tough love (seriously, she ran everytime I applied it), that's why I am concerned about the proper DB.
LOL! Doesn't all waywards? They want to be spoiled, just like kids. When my mother would get a switch after me, I didn't exactly go running to meet her with a big smile. But it worked wonders in adjusting my attitude. She didn't enjoy it, by any means b/c she was sweet and a loving person. I'm so thankful she loved me enough to care how I turned out.
I'm not sure what your idea of tough love is. It
is love. It is tough on the person who applies it. It is tough for the person receiving it, simply b/c they don't get to act out in a bad way. They have to take responsibility for their actions. They don't get away with disrespectful behavior. They don't get to act entitled, take advantage, manipulate, deceive, and a host of unattractive, unacceptable, negative behaviors. To me, it is looking past your own emotional pain and caring about your MR enough that you won't allow her to treat you disrespectfully. It doesn't matter if it is our spouse or some stranger, when we let people mistreat us, they won't love us. It is a fact about human nature. When it comes to women, it quad triples in nature, b/c her "in love" feelings (desire and attraction) is tied to her level of respect for her H. No respect = no attraction, no desire. Don't let the fact that she had sex with you, mess with your head. It had nothing to do with her love.
In order to get this woman back, you have to get her respect for you as a man. Being a wuss doesn't cut it. I mean, you didn't even get angry when she told you she was doing this other guy! Then she has sex with you, too. Then back with the other guy. How can you expect her to respect you when you are willing to just hug it out? It doesn't work that way with waywards. WW's respect one thing, and one thing only. The man that is stronger than she is. Instead of showing gentleness and tenderness, you need to toughen up, b/c she is going to take you on the roller coaster ride of your life!
I guess that one good sign is that 1) She isn't moving in with him and 2) She mentioned she is looking for apartments with dogs in case we reconcile. Brings me back to how she runs from tough love. How do I show her the door is open if she ends the affair through tough love.
LOL, well that was clearly a backup plan, if I ever heard one.......and I've heard a lot. It should have made you angry, instead of you thinking, "at least she didn't move in with him". Did it occur to you that OM had his reasons for her not moving in with him? Look, you don't to see if and when her door is open. Get it? She has to be the one looking to see if
your door is still opened for her, and if it is......then she'll probably not be interested. Again, it's part of the nature of a WW. She wants what she thinks she can't have. She has to work to get you back again. Not the other way around. The OM is not the real issue here. It is her waywardness. I have a feeling, you spoiled her rotten, and I haven't even read past the second page of your thread. Sad to say, that many wayward W started by being spoiled too much by their H (who had NGS). He thought that it would make her happy and would show how much he loved her. Instead, it ruins her, and she feels resentful toward him and their MR.
Forget everything you knew about your W previously, b/c she is a different woman now. She has a different mindset.
Well, I've barely got on page two of your thread, so I'll have to continue in the next post.
She actually just called because she found an apartment, wanted to tell me about it and that she has missed me the past few days. She started talking about how she has been feeling, how we shouldn't of gotten married, timing was bad, we were looking too much to the future. That she doesn't think she can love me the way I want to be loved, and that she is worried I won't be able to make her happy.
She missed you? Really......which part? B/c what I see is a WW talking to her jilted H about her favorite subject.......herself! Her feelings! She tells you getting M was a mistake, and she can't love you the way you want to be loved (and deserve to be loved) and she is worried (for herself) that you would never be able to make
her happy. Wow, that had to have a stung. Oh, it gets better.
Here is the kicker - She asked me to be the guarantor on the lease for her new apartment:
Look, I know I am using a sarcastic tone, b/c I want to you to get your eyes opened to the kind of woman she has become. However, I am really sorry for your pain. This had to have hurt you, and I have not read past this part, so I am holding my breath that you did not agree to co-sign for her. The WW selfishness is beyond anything I can think to compare, at the moment. There is nothing they won't stoop to do if they can benefit better from it. They think nothing of using the LBH for their advantage.
Me: I'm sorry, you are on your own.
W: Wow, I have to go (hangs up)
I text her: I'm sorry, but I am not going to help you leave me. Just have your parents sign.
YES! Great job!
At first, I felt like I did something wrong piss her off, I almost immediately questioned if I should back and agree, but I stood firm. I actually don't mind signing it (doesn't mean much in NYC), but it was more of principal here.
The principle of the matter is what counts from here on out. You must stand on your standards, morals, beliefs and values. Don't compromise your integrity, b/c you pay
Well I kinda of faltered....I called her back to ask if she was okay and that I was honestly worried about her as everything as been out of character (i think this breaks every DB rule), especially having an open affair while we work through things, it was not her moral fiber. Surprisingly, it somehow broke through to her.....she isn't sure how to cope with this, the too much damage has been done and she wanted to make it easier for me (I know I am not supposed to believe it, but it was the first time I heard her speak genuinely in weeks).
What?!
We re-hatched some of our past problems to which I 1) owned up to and 2) said that is in the past and we are both different people now and going forward. I loved her and always will, and will always have the what if because we never had a shot to heal from this and try to grow stronger (showed her the door).
That is when she said let me think on it and we can talk tomorrow.
I know this is all anti-DB, but I genuinely had a moment that hit me like a ton of bricks that I don't want to put the effort in and I was done and wanted to move on. I will let you know how tomorrow goes, but I expecting her not to change and that is fine by me.
Yeah, she needs time to think how she can wiggle a co-signature out of you.
I choose not to DB because I don't think she is worth it. I deserve better
You chose not to DB? Are you kidding me? What exactly do you think DB is? IMHO, you did exactly what you should have done.
**********************************************************
Okay, I read through the posts where you are mind playing with yourself. Now you are trying to believe she had a exit affair? Whatever helps you sleep better, but I have read nothing in your thread to make me think you've been so horrible to her that she had to find a guy to scr@w to get away from the M. Did you have an affair? Did I miss something?
You seem really confused. You don't know what real DBing is. You think if you get a D it will help the pain. And now you think she's had an A as her exit strategy. ((hugs)). I think getting away from the house/town for a few days might do you some good. Don't hang around when she shows up for her things. Get the heck out of Dodge and be around some people who actually love and appreciate you. Maybe you could plan to get away next weekend? It wouldn't be a disgrace to ask your doctor for sleeping meds, or even anti-depressants while going through this mess.
Honestly a lot there. Something clicked with me in a good way, that I am not sure I could ever take her back knowing she let herself develop feelings for another man just because she wasn't happy at home. Not that I am deciding anything, but I really did have this thought of "I am not sure I could be with somebody that acts like that".
Well, your emotions may experience a love-hate swing from day to day, or hour to hour. It's part of coming to terms with it. I've not been in your shoes, but I have learned a few things over the years from LBH's just like you. Please take good care of yourself, and be your own best friend.
((hugs))
AJS, you're very light lucky to gave sandi take an interest in your sitch. Pay heed to get advice!!
Sandi,
Thank you so much for your in depth analysis. I really do appreciate you taking the time to go through it in such detail.
I feel like you may cringe through........I saw her today for a few hours since last Sunday as we agreed to talk through the logistics of her move, separation, possible mediation, cabin upstate etc. I stay cordial, confident and strong MOST the time. Did have a few minutes in there that did qualify as pursuit when we began to re-hatch/review our marital history. She said simply that she was falling out of love with me the past few months (due to fighting - which was a problem in our MR) and happen to fall in love with her co-worker (EA then PA in Dec, March, April). I accepted how she felt, made sure not to downplay the connection, but said the affair was not justified and unacceptable.
We stopped talking about what happened and just started talking about how to handle the dog, what furniture she was taking etc. She was packing to go and before she left we did both at one point start crying and hugged each other when we both literally at the same time says "this [censored]". Smiled and said goodbye.
The second she left, I said to myself "ok, she is gone, time to GAL and 180/LRT". Maybe I am having slightly better days but I do feel stronger. I keep coming to this board because I know I need the support and I am getting it - THANK YOU ALL BTW - especially Steve85, Nutcrac and SANDI!
Two quick last questions:
1.) Literally going to read LRT/180 technique everyday, any advice for my specific situation? I won'y see her much if at all over the next 2-3 weeks.
2.) In preparing for a few months of DBing (hopefully she doesn't mediate/file right away), how have people handled family members (mom, dad, etc) pushing for me to mediate/file to as they put it "get this done and behind you"? I don't feel like example DBing to them, nor do I want to or should.
Thanks again all!!!
Oh btw - not sure if it is important, but a few times tonight she individually brought up and was visbly very upset/showed lots of remorse about what she was doing to me. She said she hasn't slept, has anxiety and can't eat (I know don't believe what she says, but she did show me her Fitbit - looked same to mine). That it kills her to be doing this, that she has gone back and forth of starting over with us and improving our MR and with the OM. She just said she is following her heart because her and the OM are very much alike and we are very different (which we always knew and she brought up multiple times during our MR). She doesn't want to take the chance one me to change my behvaiors only to regress weeks/months later (admitetly this is true - mostly around listening).
Not sure if it is relavent, but did read that Waywards usually don't show remorse.
She is just trying to get sympathy from you by showing guilt and observe your reaction. Just dont show any emotions.instead be strong and validate her feelings. Somewhere deep down they do have a feelimg that they are doing something wrong. However its all covered by their outward behavior that they are showing. So dont fall into her games. Instead ignore abd do LRT and GAL
Thank Nutcrac. She actually texted me this morning asking "how I am today?"
Everything tells me to respond back "Good!" or something mysterious, but since my gut is the opposite of making things better, not going to respond at all.
AJS, remember, NC/LTR isn't not responding. "Good." (notice period not exclamation point) is fine. NC?LTR means short, direct answers and NEVER INITIATING CONTACT!
I'll try that. I was thinking my 180 could be NC since I have been in contact since this has happened too much.
Again, NC means you do not initiate contact.
Yes, just direct responses.
The objective here is to make her miss you like crazy by doing LRT. When this happens,there can be multiple scenarios.when she misses you more,she may fulfill her physical and emotional needs with the OM. So there will be some pressure on her new relationship. In due course either she will push away from you or she will realize that the grass is not always greener on the other side and start contacting you. You need a lot of patience during this process.
Not sure if it is relavent, but did read that Waywards usually don't show remorse
There have been countless stories of the WW moving out and leaving her H (and even her babies) for another man. She would be crying and wanting a hug goodbye......all very similar to your description. Telling the H that it tears her up to hurt him but yada, yada, yada. It doesn't prevent her from moving toward a new life with OM.
The WW operates out of her emotions. She does not think or act logically. It is not difficult for most women to cry, and if she is wayward.....she can turn on the tears without any problem, in most cases. What I am saying is that she may have felt emotional due to closing this chapter in her life. I am giving her the benefit of doubt and say that she probably did not intentionally have an affair just to hurt you. However, she didn't stop it, either. Despite her emotional state and the words she said, she still chose to walk out that door for another man. I don't believe it is "remorse" when they continue to carry through with the hurtful deed. Maybe guilt, but not remorse. I think you saw a woman crying for herself and a failed M.
Some waywards are remorseful, after sufficient time has passed. It would be
highly unusual for the wayward to feel remorse as quickly as....say your W in that instance. If she had been sincerely remorseful, she would not have tried to make excuses for her affair. She would not have blamed you. She would not have continued to turn the knife after plunging it into your heart again and again. If remorseful, she would have felt humble, ashamed, and with deep regret. She might have asked you to please forgive her for the terrible betrayal and deceit. She would have been focused on your pain, and not
her feelings. Most of all, she would not have turned around and walked out of the door and out of your life to go to OM. That's not remorse, IMHO. That's just a woman being emotional and remembering the past years she spent with you. Lots of women get emotional when packing their things and moving away from something that represents a milestone in their life. I think when there is genuine remorse, there is a change in attitude......and in their thinking. According to her, her thinking had not changed. She described herself falling in love with the OM. That doesn't go hand in hand with remorse......as far as I can tell.
It always amazes how plain, sometimes even harsh, the WW tells the H how unhappy she was in the M, or how it's his fault, or whatever........and the H sees what he wants to see. At least, that's the way it appears in many posts I read from LBH's. Maybe it is human nature when we are being hurt by the one we love the most.
FWIW, I will tell you about my personal remorse. Almost eleven years ago, I had decided to end my affair and stay in the M. I experienced withdrawals for months. I was very depressed and had no energy or desire to put forth effort in the MR. I had made a decision to "do the right thing" and end things with the OM. That was it. I had years and years of resentment toward my H to overcome. I didn't see how I would ever be able to do it. It took approximately two years of me wrestling with it. I even prayed and asked God to help me feel remorse, b/c I knew I
should feel it, but I didn't. It got to the place I could not sleep. I was like a walking corpse, trying to work every day, staying up till all hours on the DB board.....and not sleeping. Finally, I faced the fact that I had never sincerely apologized to my H. (I had a lot of stubborn pride). I saw my hypocrocy at not forgiving him for the things in the past.....and yet not
really apologizing for betraying him in the worst way possible. I, first, had to let go of everything I had resented and blamed on my H. I had to forgive him. That was not easy. But if he could forgive me of the A, who was I to say I could not forgive him for his part in the breakdown of our MR? That was sort of the emotional dam that broke for me. I got up from my bed, and found him in the living room. I was crying so hard he could barely understand what I was saying. It wasn't just emotions. It wasn't just guilt. It was nothing like I had ever experienced. I would have given my life if I could have gone back in time and truly changed our history. I didn't expect anything from him. I was not sorry for myself, and didn't expect him to be sorry for me. Why should he? I did not have the haughty attitude that had previously been evident. I was not pointing fingers back at him, or justifying my actions. I was humble and ashamed of the things I had done, and deeply....deeply regretted the pain and suffering I had caused him. Afterwards, I went back to bed and had sweet sleep for the first time in ages.
It may not take her that long, or it may take a lot longer. They may get M. It happens. At some point, I think you will see that putting you life on hold while she makes a new life with another man, is not for you. When you are finally able to let go of her, then you will start to feel that you've been given the chance to be happy again.........and it doesn't depend on getting her back.
Oh, and about family and friends wanting you to just file and get it over. It mostly comes out of their love for you, as crazy as that may sound. You'll have to tell them you appreciate their love/concern and you will figure out what you want to do in your own way & time. If you were my son, and especially having no children with her......I would probably tell you to move on with your life. However, it would be b/c it hurt to see my son in so much pain.
Things will get better. Life does go on, even when we feel it shouldn't. ((hugs))
Just read the whole thread here. AJS, you and I have similar situations. It was very good for me to read your thread, so maybe take the time and look at mine you might see some advice that I'll help you just like I did in this thread. All I want to say is that I was very skeptical of The Last Resort Technique but I am now in my second week of it and feeling better about myself.
Still learning to get emotionally stronger, emotionally more aware, and better at managing my emotions. I'm lucky to have my sister who has gone through some of these things, my priest, my counselor, my family, and this board. This board has been a great resource for me. I wouldn't brace that last resort technique if I were you and really start working on yourself. Not only get a life, but also figure out how to handle your emotions better and how to be the best version of you.
Anything is possible so don't give up, but definitely learned some of the things on this site. For example don't believe anything she says, know that she has an ulterior motive when she says things. No when to listen invalidate and how to keep your mouth shut in the right way. You can do this.
Thanks Sandi and ovrrnbw, I will check out your thread now.
It a surprise, the W called me after she got approved for her apartment, and said she was having second thoughts about moving out. Wanted to ask what I thought. I stayed strong and told her "you know how i feel, but it might be a good idea to take this place and we can see other people". She said how when she got the email the first thought was to call me, that she wanted to talk to me.
I feel like that would have sucked me back in usually, but i just said "i think you need to do this, have time for yourself". She said that she had really put herself in a pickle here, and said again that the apartment would be nice if we were to get back together. The thing that kept me strong is that as much as I liked hearing her second thoughts, she is still staying with this OM, and that is what keeps me in tough love mode. because it is BS, must be nice to her to call me when she feels vulernable and needs validation, but then go back to her affair....as a MARRED WOMAN.
I wish I had applied even tougher love, but I'll take it as a win that I told her to see other people and take this apartment.
Goog going AJS.
The next time she calls you let it go to voicemail. Dont immediately pick up calls and NEVER initiate contact from your end. If you pick up accidently tell her you are busy and that you will get back later. And you don't. Same thing with text and emails. You dont need to be prompt in response. Stop being a doormat and work on yourself and focus on your well being and health. If she is remorseful, let her miss you and choke herself emotionally or with OM. You dont give a damn.
AJS! well done my man! I'm proud of you.
Just read the latest update, I am curious as to why you encouraged it, when that's not what you want. When working the LRT, we need to validate the WAW, but can't we do that without encouraging outcomes that negatively affect the MR? Maybe say "I'm glad you thought to mention it to me, I know it's a big decision. I'm sure you'll be able to figure it out."
Do you want to see other people? Do you want her gone? I know it's hard to remember everything in these bang bang type of situations, but think about that.
You did a great job on not letting her pull you in with that temperature check. She is still engaging in the EA. She can get bent. You're getting stronger. Keep GAL for you and work on your 180s. Also, since you are busy GAL, I agree on not answering most calls and taking your time to respond to texts.
overrnbw, he is dealing with a WW wife, not just a mere WAW. sandi would tell you that you do not validate a WW. Based on that AJS nailed it. Also, if you are trying to encourage or discourage outcomes you want from your W then you are doing it wrong. Detachment is about being ok no matter what she decides.
I've been wondering too, what's the difference between a WW and a WAW? And, so I know, why do you not validate a WW?
And AJS was encouraging activity he didn't agree with, so are you saying he should have just acknow edged her saying that and left it at that? Thanks!
I've been wondering too, what's the difference between a WW and a WAW? And, so I know, why do you not validate a WW?
And AJS was encouraging activity he didn't agree with, so are you saying he should have just acknow edged her saying that and left it at that? Thanks!
WAW = WalkAway Wife
WW = Wayward Wife
WAW wants to leave the marriage for any number of reasons usually because the LBH has bad behaviors.
WW may also be a WAW but she is just wayward: affairs, girls gone wild, trying to hang out with younger people, etc.
I want to back up Steve's response on the WAW vs. WW. It can be really hard to grasp at first and so many of us go back and forth wondering if our Ws are really "wayward", to what degree, maybe they were WAW turned WW, etc.
The definition, as given by Sandi (who was the original person to make the clearcut distinction), leaves no room for ambiguity.
The WAW is leaving the marriage for reasons surrounding the LBH--maybe he's an alcoholic, an abuser, has a gambling or sex addiction, etc. Could be all kinds of things, but it is a MAJOR problem(s) that would cause someone to be driven out of a MR with him.
The WW is leaving the marriage for reasons surrounding herself. She is looking for greener pastures because she has a selfish heart filled with disrespect, resentment, rebellion, etc. Yes, the degree can vary, but it is all about her.
Ultimately, in almost all cases, a W is choosing to break her marriage vow for one of these two reasons and they look very, very different. You will know which one applies to your sitch, unless maybe you have some severe denial/delusion issues.
I see the difference, thanks for explaining. So what about the other content in my previous post, can you guys speak to me and AJS about that as well??
Still learning here...thanks for the patience.
I know every situation is different, But in most cases which one have a better chance at recon? can you give explanation please? thanks so much!
overrnbw, are you referring to your questions about validation and encouragement?
Remember, I am in the same boat as you and not an expert, still learning also, but in regards to the validation issue: You don't validate a WW because her feelings are not "true" or coming from a sincere place. Most of the time when she tells her H how she feels, she is being manipulative and has ulterior motives (her own selfish agenda). It does no good to reinforce this. Validation is part of the basic foundation in building a positive, loving relationship with someone. It is pretty much impossible and futile to work on building such positivity on top of her negativity. Until her heart is no longer in a place of selfishness and sin, you can't take real steps in this direction. Also, since so many LBH's with WW's have NGS (Nice Guy Syndrome) and have been severely disrespected, validating often becomes a way of enabling/continuing this disrespect and focus on her.
In regards to the encouragement issue: Steve's point about not encouraging or discouraging is right because those are attempts to control. Remember DBing is all about controlling only what you can--which is yourself. You cannot stand in the way of a WW and her behaviors or try to stop her, but you should not encourage or help her continue them. Your goal is to be detached and unaffected. You are the rock, or the lighthouse, you remain in your own circle of positivity and growth. In his case where his W talked about her second thoughts, I think the point would be to remember WW will be all over the place, confusing, doing and saying things that might be unexpected. This is where detachment comes in--you don't read into it or let it affect you emotionally. I would say acknowledging it and nothing else is probably best (again, I don't have all the answers). In some ways acknowledging is validation and that will be why you might hear people say "just validate" when presented with those kinds of situations. In reality, we validate people all the time in our interactions with them and sometimes you will "validate" your WW, it's just important not to go out of your way to do so when she is being manipulative/blaming/self-absorbed.
LoneWlf, I don't know that there are hard statistics. I would say that if you are the LBH of a WAW and you have come to this board trying to save your MR and focus on you and fixing your major problems that are driving your W, you probably have a better chance of recon because you are the problem and now are actively working to fix it. When the WW is the problem and she is not here trying to fix it, and you cannot control her, DB is the best you can do and hope that she gets to the place where she willing and able to fix the root of the MR problem, which is her.
I know every situation is different, But in most cases which one have a better chance at recon? can you give explanation please? thanks so much!
You'd have better luck asking us what the local lotto numbers will be this week. Seriously. No one knows. Another anti-divorce expert is asked all the time "when will my spouse change their mind and come back to the MR?" His answer: "When they want to."
Really that is what boils down to. You will move into recon WHEN and IF your W ever decides that is what she wants. Not until and not one second before. And since no one but her controls her, only she knows if it is a possibility. AND DO NOT ASK HER! That is one of the worst things you can do. And you won't get a real answer anyway.
I agree with Steve85 regarding reconciliation.this is never gauranteed. This canbe 1 day 1 month , 1 year or 1 decade or never. And even if she makes up her mind and comes back there is no gaurantee that she may stay long in the marraige.
I know every situation is different, But in most cases which one have a better chance at recon? can you give explanation please? thanks so much!
The one where the guy realizes that life is to fuching short to be crying over someone who doesn't want to be with them and he goes out and kicks the $hit out of life. He becomes so awesome that he starts to have choices.
The ex starts to notice and wants him back but why would he trade in his brand new Ferrari for an old cranky jalopy?
Hi all,
Thanks for all the insights, really helping.
Can anybody give advice when their WW is getting aggressive/snippy? She was texting me today asking about Finance/Insurance things, actually more like demanding. Whats the login for this? What's the verification code? Can you do my laundry in a certain way, but don't feel like you have to do it?
Who does she think she is getting mad at me? I didn't do sh*t, and she thinks she can demand things from me? I kept my responses short and at one point asked "is everything okay" to which she responded "I'm fine".
I don't get it, flirted with R/second thoughts yesterday, and literally the first time I hear from her today she is all pissy and demanding (i think she is stressed gathering info for her new apt, I would usually handle this stuff).
Classic actions AJS. Please follow through on researching Nice Guy Syndrome.
Yea AJS. I feel like when she was talking R she was temp checking. You should be skeptical, your R doesn't have much trust. You have been hurt. You want to believe things are getting better so you see her actions as hest case scenario. Keep her at arm's length until your sure what she is doing or wanting.
Good luck!
Hi AJS. Best of luck. I just wanted to say how early in the process of GAL, detaching etc. you are... It may sound discouraging but it is the opposite,because you when you get there, you will find out how much more you like the person you have become. All of these things that torment you now will seem miniscule and unimportant. Just hang in, work on yourself and keep things in perspective. I do not know you, but I truly believe you are on a good path, even though it does not seem so now.
Sorry for being patronizing. If I have any excuse, that is that I was in your situation about 8 years ago. I ended up saving my marriage, it took a couple of years, but most of all it took getting to a point where I knew I would be fine either way. If my wife decided she did not want a relationship ("I do not need a husband right now"), that was her choice. All I could do is GAL and give her space to decide figure out what she wanted out of life.
Detaching is really powerful. It does several things. It gives you piece of mind and perspective. It frees your spouse from guilt, so they can never say to themselves "the only reason I would have stayed with him/her is out of pity". When they do not feel obliged to you, they (sometimes) find out that there are other reasons to be with you.
Do not get discouraged. Whatever happens, you will come out of this stronger, wiser, and better. If you make mistakes, do not beat yourself. Just point them out and think of ways to avoid them. You are doing great (certainly much better than me).
Thanks Eric, that means a lot. I am trying hard to detach and GAL, feel like a keep faltering or questioning what I am doing a lot of the time. As I am sure many people are aware, I find myself throughout the day still in disbelief that she left/isn't here/doing this. Doesn't seem real.
I will say every day does get a little better, but also at the same time makes me sad as it also feels like everyday she is moving a little further away from me.
Besides the detachment thread, any good books around that?
AJS, maybe check out No More Mr Nice Guy, I think someone else suggested it. I would read other threads too. I got a lot out of reading this and a couple others.
Keep your chin up and get strong.
AJS, welcome. Please do not torture yourself if you fail. Detaching and GALing is a continuous process. You will make mistakes. If you catch yourself questioning yourself or thinking how she interprets things or any other counterproductive thoughts, simply work on moving away from them.
The forum helps a lot to focus on the essential stuff. I never got around posting here, but I regularly read other people's posts. It helps put things in perspective too. People survive much worse every day.
I cannot recommend a good book on detach. I would recommend finding something you enjoy to fill your time. Make a list of 3 - 5 things you enjoy doing. Bowling, skiing, knitting, stamp collecting, going out with friends... Anything. You have the ability to explore these. For me two things helped a lot. Jogging helped initially. I was so nervous all the time that I could not sleep. So every morning, I used to go out at 5 am and run for miles. I have never been a runner, but it surely helped. The other thing is tennis. I got serious in getting better at it. Started reading books on tennis, listening to tennis podcasts, playing tennis regularly.
I will say every day does get a little better, but also at the same time makes me sad as it also feels like everyday she is moving a little further away from me.
I am not a psychologist, but based on my experience, I would say this is all likely in your head. You do not know in what direction she is moving. I think this is you slowly detaching that both makes you feel better and makes you feel she is moving away.
If I have any excuse, that is that I was in your situation about 8 years ago. I ended up saving my marriage, it took a couple of years, but most of all it took getting to a point where I knew I would be fine either way.
EricC, have you ever considered starting your own thread and sharing your story? It can be really helpful to read successful R stories and see both the positive progress and the negative setbacks people like yourself have experienced along the way to saving their M...
Thanks Eric, that means a lot. I am trying hard to detach and GAL, feel like a keep faltering or questioning what I am doing a lot of the time. As I am sure many people are aware, I find myself throughout the day still in disbelief that she left/isn't here/doing this. Doesn't seem real.
I will say every day does get a little better, but also at the same time makes me sad as it also feels like everyday she is moving a little further away from me.
Besides the detachment thread, any good books around that?
I know a couple of good books on detachment, though they refer to it as differentiation. However, we are not allowed to name non-MWD books here. Can I suggest Googling differentiation in marriage? Or in relationships. Lots of good info out there.
Thanks for all the recommendations. I am ordering No More Mr Nice Guy via Amazon now and looking at differentiation/detachment books - although if anybody can strongly point me into a specific Google search, I'd appreciate it
Eric - Would definitely love to see you start your own thread to talk about your setbacks, how you dealt, your thought process and how you handled the positives that led to eventually R.
Also, a book that is also helping me (which my WW wanted to me to read but I never did) is Unthethered Soul.
There is another book that I have in my arsenal since starting this journey that really helped me and might apply to your sitch too as the dynamics sound similar. It's about how to right an unbalanced relationship (that is part of the title ;)). It goes along with a lot of the stuff covered in the pursuer/distancer thread. It was especially helpful for me because I have given all the power in my MR to my W and am a perpetual "one-down" as a result.
I have written something, a long time ago. Unfortunately, it was tied to a different email, and I cannot retrieve it. I do not mind writing it again. However, it is nothing different from what the rest of the people on this forum advise. I was mostly lucky (both the circumstances and my wife's common sense eventually prevailing).
Hi all,
Having some trouble this morning, I think it is because the WW is signing the lease on her new apartment. Just having this rush of feelings, fear and anxiety. Last time she texted me she was nasty, just feel like nothing again.
You will have these bavk and forth swings for quite some time. Just stay strong,be focussed in what u do as nd let go off any thoughts pertaining to her.
Hang in there ASJ. It is completely normal to have anxiety spikes over something like that. Just find a way to settle yourself or take your mind off of it. (exercise, yoga, music, etc...)
The problem isn't having the initial feeling, it is letting your mind run with it. Acknowledge the reaction, but let it go. Don't let it consume you.
You got this.
AJ,
Go fo a run it is the best medication for anxiety..
My W is moving out today, M S did not want to go to school because he says he feels broken. I get these exact same feelings as you do. I now have a choice to make. Do I sit in this pit of self despair or do I take a minute acknowledge the situation and the try to move on positively. I hope like me you chose the second option - Blessings on your journey.
Anxiety is a really terrible thing
The literature on it says you need to face it as soon as you have it to overcome it or else it will grow
Be proactive go get a book on dealing with anxiety today
Go workout or run today
Go to a movie today
If you can avoid caffeine and other stimulants
Sorry to hear about her moving out AJS, keep your tone positive and attitude in the right place - it will mean a lot for you, her, and the MR.
You will GAL, you already know you can't control her, so don't worry about what you can't control. Worry about what you can. Keep your chin up, she married you for who you are, not what you feel like right now. You got this.