Hello Everyone,
This is the previous thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2777318#Post2777318The situation is basically still the same as the title suggests. My husband and I have been married for ten years and have a four year old daughter. He left 2.5 years ago for another woman and because he wasn't happy, returned after eight weeks begging to come home and to work everything out, but then we didn't work things out and he's been gone again since September 2017. He's also Middle Eastern and came to the US when we got married. My daughter and I moved to a new city two weeks ago nearly 1,000 miles away from my husband. That's where our story stands for now.
KML, I've been leaving the windows open and the air circulating but it's hard to know whether the allergies are from indoors or outdoors due to pollen (or both). No one else in this building seems to have issues but my daughter is sneezing a lot too so I guess we need to see how it goes in the next few weeks.
Jim, thanks so much. I hope things will get better but there's no magic cure. I'm busy with my daughter, work, friends, and events but I still miss my husband.
Vanilla, yes I think you're right about what happened with my husband when he returned the first time. It's been the same cycle now three times (it happened once five years ago very briefly but he never left). First my husband is bored and depressed, then he finds a woman who adds excitement in his life and wants to throw away the marriage, then that doesn't last and he's sorry, or should be, but this time there's no sign he's sorry. He's angry and still shows no sign of wanting to reconcile this time.
All, I want to say this one more time - all of my friends here in the city where we moved know my husband and say he'll be sorry, he'll return, he'll wake-up, etc.. That just gives me hope that it'll happen. I guess they don't know what else to say. To some extent that's how I feel about other people's situations here on this forum, that their spouses will wake up and return too. I guess we all try to be optimistic.
I know the feedback I'll receive here will be probably be "focus on yourself, don't think about your husband..." but one challenge when having a young child is I need to communicate with my husband. I'm struggling a lot in figuring out how to talk to him. I stopped calling him except for essential child / financial matters, I stopped talking about our relationship completely, I try to be pleasant and respectful. Even now he waivers between talking normally back and being mean and spiteful. For example the other day he called and said he's going to send me the link for new ceramic pans he got so I can buy the same ones. He mentioned the other day he's getting sick. He'll volunteer short brief sentences here-and-there that make it seems like we're talking normally but then other times he'll be mean and angry. Like when I told him last week I got two consulting jobs. He acted disgusted that what I'll earn doesn't equal what he's making as a physician and said "it's not worth it." Or he'll call to ask a question and if I say more than "yes" or "no" he'll get mad and say "I didn't ask for a justification. I just want yes or no." He calls every day and asks directly to talk to our daughter. He's coming to visit next week but I don't think he'll stay with us.
It's just confusing. The threads and resources that talk about reconciliation say first you need a way to have positive interactions before there can be any other progress. Sometimes my husband and I have that, especially compared to January and February, but other times he's just as angry as he's been. He's always had a lot of mood swings so I'm not really sure what else I can do. Even if we don't reconcile we need to be in touch regarding our daughter. I know most of you will say not to care about him but it's difficult in real life to stop wondering how to make things better or caring.
The final area where I'm struggling is still with the emptiness my daughter and I feel in our lives. My daughter keeps asking when her father will come to visit. I keep seeing families every where who are happy together, holding hands, laughing. That's all I wanted with my husband. That's what he promised me. It's extremely difficult to feel happy without the other half of my life present and knowing my daughter is missing out on having a father in her life. My husband calls and visits but it's never substantive. It's always brief and always the same two or three questions.
My husband has had severe untreated ADHD according to what I can see and to his own admission but he's never been treated for it. Sometimes I wonder how his life would be different if he would get treated. I wish someone who has influence on him could encourage him to get on medication. It's too bad that so many people like my husband live the majority of their lives struggling and failing when it doesn't have to be that way. My husband's life is a disaster. He's in debt, working six or seven days a week and still spending too much, and dating women when he's married with a young child. I wish his father or friends or someone could help him but apparently they all just stay silent.
I feel I'm doing everything I can do on my end to move on right now, but I only feel marginally better and at times worse because nothing can replace the time when my husband and I were happy together before these problems started. I can't imagine any other man even coming close to comparing to my husband as he was when I first met him. I wish I could be more open minded but my husband and I have a unique story. We faced death together during a war, built our lives from zero when we came to the US (came back for me), and almost never went 30 minutes without talking or texting for many years. I still have hundreds or thousands of e-mails, texts, and cards from my husband when he used to tell me how perfect, beautiful and smart I was. He used to tell me he's doing everything within his power to give me a great life. He was so funny and we laughed all the time.
I wish our story wasn't over. It's easy to say someone else's spouse is a bad person and to move on but it's so hard to accept when it's your own spouse.
Do what I've done, I found males (within my family and husbands of close friends) to become a strong, male presence my kids need. This is not the same as a father being present but it does show my children what a healthy man looks like.
My WH also vacillates between mean and friendly, what I've done is kept our convos strictly to the kids and nothing else. If he is rude I call him on it in a quiet but firm manner. I tell him to speak to me with the same courtesy he uses with his patients. I told him on no uncertain terms that I would no longer tolerate him being rude to me and would limit our interactions to ParentTalk app if he snapped at me again. Seems to have worked for the moment.
I've started realizing that I DON'T want my WH back like this. Unless he has a Come To Jesus moment and does extensive introspection I do not want him in our lives. My WH is on meds for ADHD and he still has no done the hard work of looking at himself and making changes. He is in arrested development and there has not been enough of hitting the bottom for him to change. I cannot let this weight be tied around my family's neck. He is an albatross and will pull us all under unless I show the strength to cast him off.
Cast him off, move forward. If he does not make changes then at least he will not damage you and your child any longer. This is hard, possibly the hardest thing you will ever do. So far you've made tremendous strides and taken control of your side of the street. Don't tell him about your consult jobs, your positive changes, your negative changes. He no longer has the privilege of your intimate life. Stay distant and mysterious.
Thanks Sara. I'm trying. My best male friend came from California with his wife and daughter the weekend we moved here and took us out, did fun things with my daughter, brought her gifts. I know he would do more but he's back in California now and we're on the East coast. They said they'll try to move here someday so we can be closer and my daughter and I will visit them in August (we're very close). Otherwise I wish that my husband's brothers would make some effort and I know my father will help once-in-a while. It's still not the same as having your own father involved.
I did tell my husband to speak more respectfully the last time he was really mean and he apologized but I know it'll happen again. It's good you know about the ParentTalk app. I'll have to check that.
It's interesting your husband is on meds for ADHD and it hasn't helped with your marriage. If my husband could control his impatience and mood swings better I know our overall situation would be better but I guess even then they can still do all the same bad stuff.
I wish to be even more mysterious but there are some financial things we're still working out related to the move and our new monthly budget and it would be really dishonest to hide the fact that I have an income but I guess maybe even hiding that might be justified. I don't know. I haven't volunteered any information about our social activities but my daughter sometimes tells my husband about stuff we do.
If I was aware of one other available man out there that seems like a potential option for the future I think I'd have more hope and confidence that my husband isn't the only guy out there with whom to build a life. So far, however, I'm not aware of anyone in the universe and it seems like every guy in our age range that I see in public is with his family. I'm not looking to date in any way, I just wish I could aspire to a new relationship in the future where I could feel as happy and even happier as I did with my husband.
Nicole, it is ok to miss your husband. Allow that feeling but keep moving forward. Young child or no young child, your husband will cross your mind.
You say he is angry. About what? And, what about you? Be angry about how he has been in and out of your life. Say no more to that please. The more you do, the stronger you'll become. My situation is totally different but I feel stronger every day.
Could your friends sense that you are not ready to hear what may happen?
Don't worry about being pleasant, just be respectful. Don't be a doormat.
Why is your husband disgusted about the consulting job? Did you ask? Hey honey, I saw the disgust expression, what is that about?
Care Nicole about your husband's mental health but don't take it on. It is his responsibility. Advised by many counselors. If the time to reconcile ever came, it could become a requirement for you two getting back together.
I know the struggle of feeling empty. I know the feeling behind seeing what we think are happy couples. The sting is pretty hard.
[I can't imagine any other man even coming close to comparing to my husband.] You are absolutely not ready and that is absolutely ok. Do not date until you feel otherwise. It would not be fair to another man. And maybe you are stuck in the past when he was not a cheater and was very protecting, caring, and romantic.
I wish you all you desire and more Nicole. TC!
Nicole
Do you want an R with a WH who treats you as Plan B every time he feels like it? A serial cheater who dumps you in a very cruel way and uses you like a hotel service. Who wakes up for as long as it takes to go back to sleep again. Who cycles periodically and who sells this deal to others? It's cute to treat your W as a dish rag returning when it suits you to get your emotional washing done. He is a lying cheating scumbag in my eyes to treat the mother of his children in this way. But hey, I am strong on arse kicking cheaters and kicking their entitled ways to the curb. Reality bites.
There are endless possible OW in the world, supply upon supply with no knickers, trust me I know this. I saw the G with his hands up the skirt of the fishwife in an open bar 1.5 months after we were M.
Putting your health at risk with his selfish encounters is physical abuse.
I get it, been there, after all the G had 9 OW. How many do you forgive? How much hope do you hold onto? How much do you suffer to R briefly?
When is it enough?
When you say so. It is always the LBS that says enough.
Expect rage, fake remorse and silent treatment when you do.
I want to say kick his arse to the kerb, but it's never that easy.
You aren't missing WH but the connection, the dreams and the life.
But those are your dreams not his. Nicole, you are a lady and worth everything. I think the consulting is amazing, congratulations on your changes, that is not easy. I wouldn't mention his disgust reaction, just note it and know it's blah blah blah. Stupid idiot hasn't a clue about the real world.
Nicole, you have your big girl pants on, now get those big girl boots and boot him to the kerb.
My thoughts
V
Nicole there are plenty of fish in the sea. I wouldn't fret about available men. Lots of guys that are more mature having been through it with WWs and WAWs. You'll be fine. He'll be wishing he'd never walked away.
Hi Nicole, i know how hard it is to let go.It is so frustrating to know that you are seeing the 95% positive where as H sees only the negative. I used to tell myself to take one day at a time, now I am doing one hour at a time. Every hour i pass without feeling completely hopeless is an accomplishment and I tell myself I am doing amazingly well. Dont worry about dating now, you will know when you are ready. For now, I tell myself I do not need another person especially someone who does not know my worth to make me feel complete again. Our children and our choice to be happy will keep us happy until one day we truly are happy again.
Hi Nicole, just checking in to see you and D are doing ok. Keep us posted, we are always here for you
New2Nev, Vanilla, Arsh, Steve - thanks for your responses in the last week or two! I haven't had time to sit down and respond but I hope to do so in the next day or two.
My husband visiting Tuesday and Wednesday of this week. He slept at his parents' house but this time he was in a good mood and spent real quality time with our daughter. He invited me to come out for lunch (I didn't go), came back yesterday with a box of Mother's Day chocolates from our daughter, we took a walk with our daughter holding each of her hands, and after he left yesterday he sent a text saying he's on his way to the airport (he stayed in our place to rest while I took our daughter to a class) and then texted me pictures of our daughter later. On the phone over the past week he also showed some curiosity about what we've been doing and he ended calls with "give me a call if you need anything" which is his old phrase that he used to use when we were away from home and called to check-in.
There's no sign my husband wants to reconcile. Maybe he's just being friendly because the pressure is gone. I stopped all talk of the future and of our marriage months ago and now we live far away so he has the freedom he wished for.
On the other hand, I do consider these updates to be some degree of DB success because a few months ago my husband wanted to "divorce immediately at all costs" and said "I want to divorce you right away so you don't have any hope."
Now he's not talking about divorce at all, not that he's not planning for it later, but the crisis seems to have passed and we seem to be in a different stage now.
I'm still sad a lot but I'm happy to be working again. My career used to be my life before marriage and a child. I'm fortunate at least in the sense that my career is my dream career.
My daughter and I have been busy pretty much every day with events and seeing friends....it's still odd though the comments I receive from various people when I tell them my husband left and we'll likely get divorced. They'll say things like "don't want to divorce now to be free?" Or "don't worry he'll come right back to you as soon as he wakes up." Or "you have better things coming for you..." I don't really know what to say to any of those comments. My mind is still conflicted in many ways.
Just smile and shrug for first one. For the last two just smile and say thank you. No need to respond. Remember, people are likely just trying to make you feel better. They don't really know what to say but feel they need to say something to sooth or comfort or support you. Likely their comments did none of those things for you, but really, would anything anybody could say?
So don't focus much on other people and what they say, you are doing fine. Your H may come around one day, and if you are still open to R then you potentially could have the opportunity you so strongly seem to want. Or he may never. There are no guarantees, as you are well aware.
Conflicted mind. Well put. During my sitch I would vacillate between holding on to her for dear life and kicking her to the curb so fast her head would spin. In the end I would always fall back on my principles: 1) As a Christan H I am to love my wife as Christ loves the church. The church doesn't always do what Christ would want, but he STILL loves her. 2) Divorce is morally wrong except in the case of physical infidelity. 3) The best way for my daughter to remain a faithful Christian is to have her parent's marriage intact.
These principles drove all of my decisions. Anything I could do that stuck to those three principles, regardless of what my heart and/or mind was telling me at the moment, I should do.
So find your principles again Nicole and stick to them. Don't compromise on what is core to you for anyone. Or anything.
Dear Nicole,
Good luck!
You are not alone and remember, this too shall pass...
Hi Nicole,
This sounds encouraging, even if it just leads to civility between the two of you...that has to be a lot better than how it was in the past.
It will also make it a much nicer environment for your daughter. Just keep the lines of communication open, but be level headed about it. H seems to bounce around emotionally, so try not to get caught up in his emotions.
Your life is forging ahead in a good way...be proud of yourself.
On the phone over the past week he also showed some curiosity about what we've been doing and he ended calls with "give me a call if you need anything" which is his old phrase that he used to use when we were away from home and called to check-in.
Sounds like a little bit of a temperature check there. That's good, it sounds like you're doing a great job of DB'ing and now he's starting to wonder why you're no longer pursuing!
There's no sign my husband wants to reconcile. Maybe he's just being friendly because the pressure is gone. I stopped all talk of the future and of our marriage months ago and now we live far away so he has the freedom he wished for.
On the other hand, I do consider these updates to be some degree of DB success because a few months ago my husband wanted to "divorce immediately at all costs" and said "I want to divorce you right away so you don't have any hope."
Now he's not talking about divorce at all, not that he's not planning for it later, but the crisis seems to have passed and we seem to be in a different stage now.
I think you're right, he no longer feels pressure from you and that takes away the urgency of pursuing D. And I do agree with you that THAT is progress! DB'ing is all about baby steps, there are rarely any big moves. So celebrate the baby steps!
My daughter and I have been busy pretty much every day with events and seeing friends....it's still odd though the comments I receive from various people when I tell them my husband left and we'll likely get divorced. They'll say things like "don't want to divorce now to be free?" Or "don't worry he'll come right back to you as soon as he wakes up." Or "you have better things coming for you..." I don't really know what to say to any of those comments. My mind is still conflicted in many ways.
That's pretty typical. Michele talks about it in DR, people think the best thing for you is to rip the band-aid off but only YOU know what is best for you. If you get tired of them saying that stuff then reply with "I am choosing to stand for my marriage and I would appreciate your support while I'm going through this."
Any or all of those things may or mar not be true. You likely would be better off divorced from a man who can say he wishes your daughter had never been born. He might try to come back now that you're moving on (but even if he does - usually it's just that he wants to keep you as Plan B, not that he's ready to do the work. If at any point you're inclined to take him back - it should look something like this: he moves back to your city but lives separate. He goes to individual therapy weekly. He stays free of all other women. You don't sleep with him for a year. Tough work but if he's sincere he'd do it. If he can't then you know he's not really sincere and capable of being the man you need him to be).
I've got to be honest, Nicole. I think I might be able to forgive my exH saying he wished I was dead or had never been born, but I do not think I could ever ever forgive him saying he wished his daughter was never born.
those are the words of sociopath.
I've got to be honest, Nicole. I think I might be able to forgive my exH saying he wished I was dead or had never been born, but I do not think I could ever ever forgive him saying he wished his daughter was never born.
those are the words of sociopath.
They were definitely meant to inflict as much pain as possible. I have a tough time, as a father, believing he really meant it. But even just saying it is sociopathic.
That is definitely super heart breaking stuff. That comment, no matter what, is absolutely horrific.
The only silver lining in that comment, and what I would take away from it is - he showed his absolute true colors in making that statement. I would take that truth from him and never look back. Forget if he can ever be a good partner to you, he will never be a good parent to your D. And you want good role models for your D and show unconditional love. That's what you do for your kids - he doesn't have it in him.
I am sorry but you should let go of this man and make the best of it for your D. Your D deserves a father who will do anything for her. None of our kids deserve less.
^^^^^
(((Nicole)))
I think many of us come to these boards because it is our last hope. We dont want to let go. We are afraid to grieve. Afraid of loss.
What many of us eventually discover is that losing a lying, cheating, abusive spouse is akin to losing a malignant cancerous growth.
I have an aquaintance who contracted HIV from her cheating spouse. There are posters here who have contracted STDs.
You have a healthy child, you are healthy, you are educated and have a career. You are luckier then many.
He is not a good partner. You deserve so much better. Him leaving was truly a gift.
Nicole
Your WH is abusive in his attitude, in such a way as would make my hair curl (if it wasn't already).
I am not keen on labels and as the DSM has character disorders listed then sociopathic would cover the whole cluster all the way to anti social ( in old money a psychopath). In the same way that you call a dog a mammal. Sociopath is the overarching cluster.
If nothing else strikes you as targeted to cause damage then the comments about your child (not his) make the blood in my veins run icy cold. This would put me on notice of potential harm to this precious child. High risk of a cold hearted father.
I don't give advice just my views and they are very similar to juju. Except I will say it stronger, now this man has gone, lock and bolt the gate to everything including your heart.
The things said can never be unsaid. And please no forgiveness for this, he hasn't asked and hasn't atoned in any way.
Be safe, this man isn't behaving like a warm generous father more like a bear wanting to cull.
Be strong and be safe
V
Hi Nicole,
I have read most of your sitch, but have not known how to reply to you. I am terribly sorry for you and your D, and for what he has put you through. I know how awful and devastating it can be! I am glad you have been able to move on to a better location and are creating a new life for you and D. That takes a lot of courage and strength.
Here we often focus on DB here and how to better follow the rules. I think a lot of advice we give is based on those rules and the sound advice from MWD in her books. I do agree we all have to keep a beginners mind set, focus on ourselves, and to set them free. In time we hope that as we become our better self, they will see what they are missing, be redrawn back to us and then we can start something over. The thing we don't talk about as much is if that person has also soul-searched, and really changed, and is actually worthy of our love and forgiveness. They not only have to be accountable for the destruction they have caused, and remorseful for the way they have hurt their S and kids, but they have to commit to changing themselves. Every day.
What I read the other posters saying is that your H is not showing any signs of this, and it seems unlikely he will. So even if your friends/family are right, and he does second guess himself and come back, it is unlikey he will do the hard work required (have the insight, strength and commitment) to change into a good man. Nicole, you deserve a good man. Your D deserves a good father and to see a man treat her mother with dignity and respect. What kind of man do you want for your D to end up with? Because she is watching your every move.
I don't know your H. I only know what you have described here. Some of what you describe is that of a man that is selfish, entitled, and who also is controlling and manipulative. To keep a large house for himself and his affairs, while his W and D are in a smaller space, it cruel. He shows no respect or remorse for his own W. He does not prioritize time with his own D. Comments he has made are just ugly. The way he helped you move and then picked a gift, even that looks controlling. A good man would ask how he can help, what he can buy, and then LISTEN to her answer. He comes and goes as he pleases with little regard for your feelings.
I also do not think this is any more justified because of his culture. My own father immigrated from the middle east, married my mom, had us kids, and then they D when we were young. My dad gave my mom the big house, paid large child support, worked long hours and still saw us kids almost every day. He lived in a small rental house to make this work. He wasn't perfect, but he was a great dad and I respect what he did so much. I don't recall him ever mistreating my mom either.
This may all sound harsh, and I am sorry for that. I am not here to be mean or judge anyone else, but I am calling it like I see it. I honestly hope for you that he does not try and come back. I also hope if he does, you tell him no thank you. You deserve so much more than someone like this. Your D deserves to see her mom loved and respected. There are plenty of good men out there. Just read the threads here; these men love and honor their W and family and are willing to change. I think this is what we are all trying to say to you, just in different words.
Blu
The thing we don't talk about as much is if that person has also soul-searched, and really changed, and is actually worthy of our love and forgiveness. They not only have to be accountable for the destruction they have caused, and remorseful for the way they have hurt their S and kids, but they have to commit to changing themselves. Every day.
This is the best and most accurate thing I've read here in a while. There is no back to the status quo or how things were. It's just impossible and if there isn't a serious commitment to change by the WW/WH/WAW, and a clear demonstration of it, it's not worth it. At all.
Hi Everyone,
Thank you so much for your responses. I've been trying to get back here all week to respond to each one. I hope tonight will be the night. You all offered so many excellent points and things to consider. I look forward to continuing the conversation!
The thing we don't talk about as much is if that person has also soul-searched, and really changed, and is actually worthy of our love and forgiveness. They not only have to be accountable for the destruction they have caused, and remorseful for the way they have hurt their S and kids, but they have to commit to changing themselves. Every day.
This ^^^^^^^.
As much as I miss my wife, this is pretty much why I'm ok with moving forward with the divorce. I get none of this from her, and doubt I ever will.
Jim, that is understandable. Sorry everyone I fell asleep last night - my daughter was sick and then I got sick, started to get better, and then got worse again. I'll keep trying to write a full post because there's a lot to say not just about my situation but about all of us in general.
Hi Everyone, it may take a few attempts to get caught up but starting with New2Nev's message on April 29th:
New2Nev - thanks for taking the time to share those comments. I agree with them all so there's not much to say in response except my husband was upset about the consulting position because the rate isn't as high as his as a physician, although it's still well above average. I think my husband is angry due to guilt and because my daughter and I are still a burden or barrier to my husband's freedom. Who knows.
Vanilla, in response to your message from 29/4 (as you'd write it in the UK), no, of course I don't want to be plan b or be married to a serial cheater. I'm aware that there are endless OW in the world. It's not quite so easy though since we have a daughter and need to cooperate together for years to come while she grows up, not to mention how much I invested in my husband's career and into bringing his family here. We also had a lot of wonderful times together too. He was never even remotely abusive until he left the first time and even then it depends on how you categorize abuse. I'd say neglect and indifference are the most accurate words followed by verbal anger at being 'trapped' by marriage.
Steve85, there are lots of men out there but there are only a handful in my life that appealed to me and I only had one long-term relationship before I met my husband that started out as friendship. I never went on a 'date' in my life. In my husband's country dating is forbidden. So I have no idea how I'd meet someone especially considering when you have kids you can't just move anywhere you like so it would have to be someone close by and fit a number of other criteria. It seems like such a remote chance and risk to think of someone new. I just can't imagine anyone else....
Arsh18, how are you doing lately? I haven't seen any updates from you. Yes I'm trying to get through each day and hope you are as well.
Steve85 - in response to your message from 5/10 - yes I have faith-based principles as well although sometimes I'm more on the forgiveness side and other times I'm on the justice side. I'm open to forgiving my husband someday if he's truly sorry but other times I wish there could be more justice on our planet for those who abandon their families for illegitimate relationships with other people.
Amazona and Caz - thanks so much. Caz, how are you doing? It would be nice if you could post an update.
AnotherStander, it's good to know your interpretation matches my own.
KML - there's no sign my husband will come back. Bear in mind this is the second time he left so I learned from my mistakes the first time he returned, so it would be a long, long process if he wanted to try again this time.
Ginger - my husband said that statement in a fit of rage on the day he wanted to get divorced. He's never been such a monster before in the eleven years I've known him. He was unrecognizable that day. I just don't know. It's not that I forgive him or don't forgive him but I know that statement isn't true because my husband has made references of the opposite nature about our daughter perhaps 1,000 or more times such as "she's the only thing good in my life; I love her more than anything; I can't live one day without her...." He's recently started acting normal again and saying how great our daughter is, how much he misses her, and how she's the best thing in his life. I do wish to confront him about his bad statement someday, no matter what happens, and ask for a sincere apology because it's so traumatizing to remember he said that.
Steve85, I'll get to the sociopath part soon.
Maika, my husband has failed as a husband and father. I let him go in the sense that I moved and started my own life and I no longer call him or expect him to return. On the other hand, he's still our daughter's father whether I want that or not. She deserves someone who will do anything for her but what she has is my husband. What can I do if he's not a great father? I can't cut-off his contact with her and I can't bring him back or change him. I just don't know.
JujuB, what you say is true although it's hard at this stage to see my husband leaving as a gift. I'm starting over right at the time when life is finally supposed to be stable. I'm alone with a child who doesn't deserve to be abandoned by her father. It's hard to see it as a gift. My health has been really bad and I worry a lot about what will happen to my daughter if anything happens to me. As a realist I'd much prefer to stay in an unhappy but functional marriage than to live like this but I have no choice. My husband chose to leave and cheat.
Vanilla, Bluwave, Maika, and Jim, I'll respond to you all tomorrow I hope!
Back to completing the responses -
JujuB, I wanted to say that it's hard to see my husband leaving as a gift, but perhaps in three to five years I'll be able to see it that way. One of the biggest areas where I struggle is with acceptance. It's hard to accept that this happened. Sometimes I still can't believe my husband is gone. Other times I can't believe he did all those bad things. Like many others say here, what happened to the person I married? It's like they become entirely different people. I'll keep trying to see his departure as a potential gift.
Vanilla, in response to your message from 13/5, you know I've asked the psychologist about this many times (is my husband a sociopath or some other clinical diagnosis?). Last summer my husband agreed to go on his own to a psychologist after I asked him if he would. He went on his own and I went to the same psychologist on my own, separately. I asked the psychologist if my husband had bi-polar, borderline personality, depression, anti-social personality, etc. and the psychologist always said no. He said he didn't detect anything like that in my husband. He said my husband is lost in life, isn't grounded, and doesn't know where he's headed. He said my husband is having a mid-life crisis. He said my husband felt guilty for hurting me and said many good things about me. Many of my friends who know my husband are physicians and they also haven't 'named' his behavior with anything like sociopath. They believe he's trying to make up for lost time by trying to live the adolescent life he never got to enjoy. My husband grew up in a war zone in an Islamic country and never got to have 'fun.' It seems all the temptations here in the US, namely easily accessible women, are more than my husband can resist. He ultimately decided marriage is a trap and he needs to go enjoy his time. So I don't know. Those who are professionally trained who know my husband haven't labeled him as an abuser nor sociopath. Perhaps they see things differently than how they sound here on this forum because they know my husband and I in real life. One thing I know my husband has though is ADHD and impulse control. He's admitted it himself but hasn't sought treatment for it. At the end-of-the-day, my husband lost his morals and ethics and sacrificed his wife and child to go have fun and be free. It might be easier to 'lock the door' if we didn't have a child together. I'll write more about my perspective shortly.
BluWave, thanks for taking the time to read! Yes everything you say sounds right. Bear in mind my husband left once before. He came back begging to come home, apologizing for everything and saying he'd kill himself. Sadly I made a huge mistake in letting him come back without checking to see if he'd gone through the sole-searching process. My therapist at the time suggested I not bring up the past and constantly make my husband feel guilty but I did exactly that along with letting my husband come back too easily. So now I learned the hard way. He left again and obviously didn't learn from his past mistakes. Interesting that your dad is from the Middle East. There are many respectable Middle Eastern men that take excellent care of their families. In fact most that I know are that way. I vetted my husband and thought he was among the best.
Maika, yeah, too bad I didn't learn that the first time my husband left. The commitment to change has to be based on actions over time.
Jim, I wish your wife would come to some realization but I guess while you're going through all these changes and improvements she's just sitting idle. Too bad because it doesn't sound like she's living the best and most fulfilling life that she could live. I hope you can do it though.
All, I tried to respond to everyone and now I'll write a brief update. So last week my husband called me late one night. It was the first time in five or six months that he called at night. He asked how our daughter was doing and said he missed talking to her (sometimes she's not in the mood to talk when he calls). He asked if she's eating well. He said to please let him know if we need more money especially to buy her the best quality food. Then he said he's going to bed and said goodnight.
This weekend, 10 days after my husband last visited, he came back again. It was bizarre though because he spent most of the time at his family's house and only two hours yesterday and ten minutes today with our daughter. Tonight he passed by on his way to the airport for a few minutes. When he arrived I let him go to our daughter and I went to another room to sort laundry. He came into the room where I was and asked how I'm doing. He asked how my work is going and asked if I'd like him to clean my car the next time he comes. I said work is fine and no I will clean the car myself. I didn't say much else. I was already about to lose it because I felt so upset that my husband flew up here and spent so little time with our daughter. On the other hand, this is definitely a big change that he came to talk to me. He also said he'd like to start doing a FaceTime call with her every night around the same time (he's been calling sporadically and it's always just audio). After my husband left and presumably went to the airport I received a message from him that says "Thank you so much for taking care of her. You are doing a great job. She's a very special girl. I love her more than anything in this world." I responded "You're welcome. She loves you too." Honestly I have no idea what I should have said but I just wrote that.
Yes I know technically I should move on and never accept my husband back. That's most likely what will happen regardless of what I want because there's no sign that he wants to come back, only that he's been warming up recently. Now that my husband left for the second time I know I can't let him come back easily, if he ever wished to return, because I saw what happened and he left again. This situation has been going on for a long time now. Where we each differ on this forum is in our philosophies about life and our expectations. There appears to be somewhat of a status quo about not taking back cheaters, liars, abusers, etc.. that haven't demonstrated true change and remorse. There also appears to be a general agreement that we all deserve a better person and that better people are out there to be found. I agree with those things but I guess I'm not at the point of 'locking the door to my heart' so my husband can never return. I'm trying hard to move on with my life knowing there's a low chance my husband will try to change. On the other hand, I want to work towards the best possible outcome for him, my daughter, and myself. I want to facilitate my husband and daughter having a better relationship. I want my daughter to see my husband and I communicate peacefully. I want to work things out with my husband so we can be friends and support each other. I want to give my daughter the best shot possible in life so I'm trying to give her my undivided attention and don't foresee bringing any new man into the picture for many years. There would be too much risk associated with that. I can't even imagine loving another man except for maybe one who I've known for decades but who isn't an option. I have to accept that my husband chose the wrong path for his life but he's the man that I loved. If, in a few years, he realizes his mistake and commits to change and wants to try again I'd be open to that if it happens through the involvement of an army of third parties like counselors, mutual friends, family, and religious community to create accountability and to make sure everything is fair. It's hard for me to say I'd never take my husband back because potentially we have up to 40 or 50 years of life remaining and it's hard to project so far into the future. I think my husband has a lot of growing up to do. I try to look at the big picture including the ten years of my life I invested into bringing my husband to the US and helping him establish a career, the fact that we have a daughter to raise, and the potential to change as we pass through several more decades of life. I want to be practical and realistic about the future. So I just don't know. It's hard to say I'd never try again with my husband but I agree that he'd either have to A) truly commit to the healing process and demonstrate long term change or B) we reunite in some kind of practical arrangement that gets negotiated for our daughter's sake only.
I just have no idea what will happen in the future. I'll continue to post here in hopes of helping others learn from my experience, just as many of you are doing. As I mentioned a few times in the past, if I were posting here a few years ago when my husband left the first time you would have seen that he came back and it would have sounded like a success story. A few months ago it sounded like we would be divorced within weeks. Now the future is open-ended. I kind of prefer keeping it open-ended. I'll still be sad if my husband files for divorce in the near future and if things deteriorate and I have to file for divorce I'll feel sad about that as well. As the DB book describes, there are different reasons why people might choose to stay married. I still have a hard time accepting divorce as our outcome but staying separated is ok with me for now.
My husband has done terrible things but in response I also became a resentful, cruel, controlling, and abusive wife for a period of time. When I die I have to be accountable for my own actions so I know I have more work to do on myself.
I don't want to ramble endlessly but to conclude, I agree with most of what you've all said and don't expect my husband to return, wouldn't take him back under any easy circumstances, but I want to keep the future open-ended. Thanks again for your input!
Your current events resonate with me. My husband has been going through this crisis for 8 years now. He left for a month back in 2012 right after BD. He returned and then went through major withdrawn/depression. He was home, but not really home. He actually set up our shed as a make shift suite and stayed in there for 2 months. He then had some clarity and came back into our home. For years he cycled through depression and slight withdrawal after. However, he was almost back to himself but you could see the depression hidden beneath the surface. This past year I thought maybe it was finally over just to find out, nope. Major BD and gone again. Left for 6 weeks a text a few times a week, came back, moved to our commercial property and has been staying there since. I am praying it is a case of going through it all again to close the doors and face fears. For me it is the uncertainty that is unbearable. My heart breaks for you and your daughter, it is so hard on the kids.
Hi Nicole,
I have tried to catch up on your situation. It was so generous of you to reply to my first post when you have so much else on your plate at the moment, thank you! It meant such a lot.
You are so clearly an couragous, compassionate and articulate woman. I think none of us want you, or your daughter, to have any more unhappiness.
I dont want to trivialise your situation but I am reminded of a story by Anthony de Mello.
Each day a bird would shelter in the withered branches of a tree that stood in the middle of vast deserted plane. One day a whirlwind uprooted the tree, forcing the poor bird to fly a hundred miles in search of shelter, till it finally came to a forest of fruit laden trees and he concluded: If the withered tree had survived, nothing would have induced the bird to give up its security and fly.
I have no idea in this story if you or your husband are the bird but I have a strong feeling that you and your daughter will find fruit laden trees either with or without him!
(PS: I hope for you that it will be with a fully aware, committed, intimate version of the version of him that you fell in love with, as you sound so genuine in your commitment to him)
Nicole,
I personally believe in the mantra "when people show you who they are, believe them"
You aren't ready to let him go, and I hope one day that you are. Sure, I also hope one day, he turns out to be this very remorseful, sane, loving husband and father.
MLC, stressful job, who knows. But this is who he is right now.
May I make a suggestion? please don't take this the wrong way. Every other word is "my husband". If you try to roll your mindset off calling him" my husband" all the time, you might begin to detach a little better. Because he sure isn't acting like a husband.
You'll get to where you need to be in your own time. I just hope you chose to let him go before he ever comes back.
Steve85, there are lots of men out there but there are only a handful in my life that appealed to me and I only had one long-term relationship before I met my husband that started out as friendship. I never went on a 'date' in my life. In my husband's country dating is forbidden. So I have no idea how I'd meet someone especially considering when you have kids you can't just move anywhere you like so it would have to be someone close by and fit a number of other criteria. It seems like such a remote chance and risk to think of someone new. I just can't imagine anyone else....
Nicole, all LBSs feel this way. After all we think who would want a divorced, single parent etc. However, it can and will happen eventually. You are young and have a full life ahead of you. Based on your history, you probably thought prior to meeting your husband that the likelihood of you meeting someone, falling in love and getting married was low too.
My point is that being so invested in someone else isn't healthy. I know because prior to meeting my W I was there with a girl (now woman) I knew since I was in grade school. Being that vested in someone gives them unique power over you, power that they really enjoy. Your H think she can swoop back in anytime he wants and you will accept him with open arms. Kayla (not her real name) felt the same way about me up to even just a few years ago. In fact, last time I spoke to her she was very cold because I had finally made it clear to her that there was zero chance of us being anything more than we currently are.
Don't give him that much power over you. For years I gave great girls that were interested in me no chance because they weren't Kayla. I gave Kayla power she didn't even realize she wielded, and that was not healthy for me nor for our relationship.
Look, I know telling someone that they should move on is a lot easier than actually moving on, but think about the power you have given to him. Does he deserve it?
Bluesun, how do you do it? Do you have a thread here on this board that we can read?
Mum2Three, it's nice to think we could find the fruit laden trees. Having worked in war zones for most of my career I'm acutely aware that many never find such a place in this lifetime, but I think my focus is on doing the right thing, strengthening my faith, and purifying myself may offer the most direct path to a better place.
Ginger, I'm not sure what else to call him. Walkaway husband? Or 'the man who left?" I'm not sure but I'll try to make less references to him. Aside from writing here on this forum I've diversified my focus on my daughter, career, friends, activities, etc.. and try to limit the time I spend mourning this man but the pain is still there.
Steve, wow I wish to hear the full Kayla story sometime. You know there is another man in my life but I can't write about it here. I would never have an affair but it's an extraordinarily complicated and unprecedented situation that left even my therapist speechless. I wish there was a more private place to get advice about that. My friends who know are flabbergasted and are of no help. So I know my husband isn't the only man in this world. The void and loneliness is so hard to fill though. Many times I'd do anything to pick up the phone and call my husband but nowadays I call other people or no one at all. It's just that with a child it's no longer as easy as falling in love with someone and starting over. The child comes first and currently I have nothing to offer anyone else so I have to accept being alone. I had one long-term relationship prior to meeting my husband but prior to getting married I don't think marriage was really a priority in my 20's. I was too busy with school and career to think much about that. It all just changed when I met my husband.
All, I have to work on being a more positive person. That's one of the hardest things for me....I don't know about all of you. Many of you sound resilient and you're positive about your lives and futures after your marriages fell apart. I hope to figure out how to be that way too.
All, I have to work on being a more positive person. That's one of the hardest things for me....I don't know about all of you. Many of you sound resilient and you're positive about your lives and futures after your marriages fell apart. I hope to figure out how to be that way too.
One thing that helped me with this Nicole is that realization that positivity or negativity is a choice! I grew up with a father who was very negative, and a mom who was very risk adverse. This had a profound affect on me where I was a pessimistic non-risk taker. I believe that caused a lot of trouble in my marriage since my wife was much more of a free spirited, go with the flow, everything will work out person.
I have spoken to my counselor about this too, and she reinforced that being positive was something I could CHOOSE to do. Even when my initial reaction was to be negative. It also helps to institute the 1 second pause technique before reacting. That way when my initial impulse is to be negative, I can catch it and think positively.
It takes work, but you can do it. In 6 months I have come a long way in turning around from a pessimistic, negative Nancy, to a positive, optimist. I have to say that my existence has been a lot more enjoyable. I think of it as Sadness vs. Joy in the Pixar movie Inside Out.
Steve, thanks that is helpful. I will keep trying. I'm so glad to hear of your progress!!!
Guys, my husband just called from his work to ask how I'm feeling today (I've been sick) and to say he's feeling so bad he didn't spend much time with our daughter this weekend so he'll be back within ten days and will spend the whole time with her.
I don't know. My sense is that he may not be trying to fix things with me but he's becoming cognizant of how his actions affect our daughter.
I'd also guess that the relationship my husband has been in with the younger nurse hasn't progressed, or isn't as serious now, because when he met her he disappeared for over a month altogether and could care less how that impacted us.
I'm not saying that anything significant has happened, but for members like Arsh and others who's husbands left angry and spiteful and blaming them and their kids for everything - I do think at some point these rogue spouses start to return to reality. I'd still love an apology from my husband regardless of whether we're ever together again but it may be a while before that happens.
I haven't posted our story yet. There is so much to it. Be fore warned it will be a novel in size. Will soon.
As for how do I do it, I barely do. Patience is key. I have faith in my H, in our M and in our friendship. I often feel like giving up..on everything. But I know if we can get through all this chaos/confusion that the prize at the end is worth it. At the same time I am open and accepting of the outcome, good or bad. Well, this week anyways haha.
My Dad went through a mlc when I was a kid. My Grandpa died when my Dad was in his early 30s and it sent him into major depression and mlc. The outcome was my parents are together and celebrated their 50th a few years ago. I have a half sibling from that chaos and remember my Moms strength through it. I know it can work out positive. I myself also went through a mlc when I was 30 (I am now 43) which was triggered by a major health issue. Experience is knowledge I guess. These roller coaster rides suck, I prefer the ferris wheel.
Hi Nicole,
You asked about an update on my situation...truth be told there's nothing to tell. My H blocks me out. He replies to texts sent regarding finances, etc and ends with Have a nice weekend/evening/day but other than that I'm nothing or no one to him.
He did send me a birthday message, very generic banal stuff but it did come early and without prompting. It was my 50th and he left 2 bottles of champagne on the kitchen table.
My daughter had a word with him about the way he blanks me, how he can be quite hostile. He became silent, lectured her on the meaning of hostile but said 'no I don't mind being told off by my daughter'
He hates being the bad guy...but doesn't see how his behaviour is perceived. I felt my daughters frustration as that is exactly how I used to feel...and do now to a far lesser extent.
I never or would ever ask anyone to speak to him for me, I used to caution everyone to please not say anything to him...but my counsellor said it wasn't my job to stop others from voicing their views or communicating with him about how he treats me and how that makes them feel.
He has a huge wall up, he has feelings of compassion, empathy etc but he doesn't allow them to surface...and I can't be with someone who monitors their emotions so intensely. So, on the whole I'm so much happier without him!
I'm busy, I've made new friends and connections and I'm fairly detached from a man I've known for 31 years...it's become easier to detach the more I realise, I really wasn't being treated fairly, and I actually like myself how I am now.
I believe you will get there too Nicole. You're stronger than you credit yourself for. I also think your H knows this too. It sounds like he's waking up very slowly from whatever he was in. Small steps towards better co parenting has to be a far better situation than the animosity he displayed not long ago.
Eyes wide open and a clear head. Keep on keeping on...
I get what you're saying Nicole, and it's all good and well. Let me point out one thing though:
I have to accept that my husband chose the wrong path for his life but he's the man that I loved. If, in a few years, he realizes his mistake and commits to change and wants to try again I'd be open to that if it happens through the involvement of an army of third parties like counselors, mutual friends, family, and religious community to create accountability and to make sure everything is fair. It's hard for me to say I'd never take my husband back because potentially we have up to 40 or 50 years of life remaining and it's hard to project so far into the future. I think my husband has a lot of growing up to do. I try to look at the big picture including the ten years of my life I invested into bringing my husband to the US and helping him establish a career, the fact that we have a daughter to raise, and the potential to change as we pass through several more decades of life. I want to be practical and realistic about the future. So I just don't know. It's hard to say I'd never try again with my husband but I agree that he'd either have to A) truly commit to the healing process and demonstrate long term change or B) we reunite in some kind of practical arrangement that gets negotiated for our daughter's sake only.
It's hard to read into the future and what happens, and yes, there are decades left in our lives. But, what I am worried about from the above is how this is going to help you truly detach and move on. If you keep a candle on for him, what does that mean for you to move forward with life. What if in a year or so, things with H are the same, but now you meet a man who you click with and want to pursue something. Are you going to not take that opportunity up because of the slight possibility that things might come around with H?
Just think about what needs to happen for this to work with your H. You've already identified it. Now reflect on what a massive undertaking this is and it's mostly on his end. It could totally happen, but hanging on to that can keep you stuck.
It's great to hear that some of his actions towards D have turned around, and I hope it remains the same and gets better for the sake of your D - she deserves a good father in her life.
Having said that, sometimes when people are angry, they can blurt out a truth because they don't have any emotional control. And sometimes people say things that are vengeful and mean to hurt the other person. With what he said about your D, I would really observe and gauge his actions over a period of time and see how it unfolds.
You can't also control his relationship with his D. Maybe he's more involved right now because he doesn't have a love squeeze at the moment. What if he finds some young woman and starts another A? Observe all of that and see how his behavior towards D changes when things change up for him.
Even though you're not responsible for his relationship with D, being the primary custodian of your D, you are responsible for making sure she has good adults around her. If you H starts ignoring her and is being in and out of her life when it works for him, you'll have to stand up for your D and what kind of relationship she needs - it's then upto him to meet it.
I am just putting my thoughts out - not suggesting that you've not thought about this or aren't doing it already.
I hope you consider what you need to move on in life that doesn't include him in the picture outside of him being a father to your D. You deserve a good partner.
Your H's issues are his and he needs to deal with them and get the necessary help.
NicoleR you said: The child comes first and currently I have nothing to offer anyone else so i have to accept being alone.
Nicole, Nicole, Nicole. Oh why? Oh why? I assure you, you have something to offer! I believe you were just having a feel sorry for yourself moment. Had one myself this week, but I'm back and fighting to move forward with or without my husband and made it very clear this month and week.
So even if you say that feeling is absolutely true, you have a new focus. Handle it! You can do it and your daughter will be proud of mom.
Hi Nicole, just caught up on your updates, I fully understand the lows that you hit at times. I agree that we can all only judge your husband based on the limited info available on these threads and you would know him the best. I also agree that the unpardonable words he spoke about your D was in a burst of anger and he must not have really meant it given his behavior otherwise. But the truth he has still abandoned both of you while he is trying to find what he wants. So for LBSs like us who have difficulty accepting the changed person our S has become, we first need to find ourselves I think and get our self worth and self respect back to its place. I keep telling myself everyday that this is about Him and Not me and try getting through the day. At the end of the day, the children make it all worth it for us.
Hi Nicole your situ is tough, I'm sorry you're facing all this. I have a similar situation with my 44 year old h in limbo - been like this on and off for 4 years. We're together but living seperately. Sounds like your h really caress for you and your d deeply.
I've called my post 'Is this actually happening....because I'm in the same place as you can't believe this is my life... it's so surreal.
Shock and disbelief are stage 1 of the grieving process. Stage 5 acceptance is a journey .... take your time on the journey.
I'm sure loads of the folks here all went through the shocked phase and are now on the other side.
HI Everyone, thanks so much for your helpful responses. I will respond to each as soon as possible. I'm still adjusting to working in addition to being a single mom and trying to find a balance, plus I've been sick, but I think I'm starting to get caught up.
Nicole,
Most of us have been in that stage where everything feels upside-down and we feel useless and of no benefit to anyone. It is normal. But it is also not permanent. It is a stage, a normal stage, that anyone in this situation would go through. You will get past it as well, as hard as it is to believe right now. You have reservoirs of strength that you don't even know, and you have people in your life who love you and care about you deeply. Reach out to them (not the H). Cultivate those positive relationships in your life. They will help you in the process of emerging from this darkness.
You can and will make it through this.
Hi Nicole, you have gone through this twice unlike most here. Your H came back before and left again so its a reopened wound for you will take time to heal. Just put your Ds and your own needs at the top of the list right now, especially with your H just taking off as and when he sees fit you should be least accommodating of him. It takes a great deal of courage to stand up to your M and be a single mom. Hope your D is well adjusted to the new place.
I don't have any advice. I just wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you.
Hi Nicole, you have gone through this twice unlike most here. Your H came back before and left again so its a reopened wound for you will take time to heal. Just put your Ds and your own needs at the top of the list right now, especially with your H just taking off as and when he sees fit you should be least accommodating of him. It takes a great deal of courage to stand up to your M and be a single mom. Hope your D is well adjusted to the new place.
This is a good point. Nicole, is it safe to say that after the first time you guys didn't deal with the root causes properly? I also am in my second go around. As I've documented in my threads, my wife had an online EA with a guy that lived about 45 minutes away from us in 2005. While we stayed together (she was insistent that she wanted to save the MR from the minute I confronted her), we didn't work on the root causes. Thus we found ourselves in the same position (with a few differences) just over 12 years later.
This time she was insistent that she wanted a D. Slowly she backed down from that, but this time we are doing the work to truly fix the root causes through counseling.
I implore anyone reading this going through this for the first time, if you move to R DO NOT SETTLE BACK INTO BUSINESS AS USUAL. Work to improve the new MR, and make sure it doesn't happen again in a few years.
Hi Nicole, I just caught up on your situation. I agree with the person that said acceptance is a journey. It truly is and I'm still journeying along as well, ha. I do hope that your H continues to recognize how his actions and absences affect your D and becomes a more attentive father to her. You mentioned your health hasn't been all that good, may I ask what is wrong?
Thanks again everyone for more great supportive comments and remarks. I will still respond to each one. I've been sick and got further behind on everything. Helena, the main health problem I have is called chronic erosive gastritis but in the past few weeks I've simply had several cold viruses, allergies, and now, thanks to my daughter, pink eye.
A quick update - not really any changes. When my husband visited last week he spent almost no time with our daughter. He was with his family most of the time. My normal reaction would be to complain and make him feel guilty. I really wanted to do that, but I stayed silent. As it turns out, he regretted his actions on his own and called that night saying he will be back in 10 days to spend more time with her and that he shouldn't have done that. He also said he wants to start doing FaceTime with her every day, although so far he's only achieved about 50% of days. He also didn't come back in 10 days but it'll be two weeks of absence when he arrives back this Sunday.
I have to admit that two things made me happy and laugh regarding my husband recently. The other week our daughter told him we were visiting "mommy's friend" that night and when she said the name it sounded like "Donny." My husband asked "Who's Donny!?" And she just said "mommy's friend." Then he asked again a minute later, "who's Donny?" My daughter didn't answer and I didn't make any effort towards telling him it's a female friend of mine. A short time later he called and I told him we're busy and I'll call later. Then a few minutes later he texted and said it's urgent. So I called him back and it was a question about insurance. Something about the timing of those two calls after learning we're visiting "Donny" seemed suspicious. Something similar happened again where my daughter told him we're going to "my school" and he thought she said "Michael." And he said "Who's Michael!?" So clearly he was alarmed at the thought of me taking my daughter to visit a man friend even though that never happened. It was funny though.
I haven't communicated much with my husband otherwise but tonight he was on FaceTime with our daughter and asked something and heard that I was sick. I told him I already saw a doctor and got a prescription and he said "you should have called me, I would have sent a prescription for you." That's a surprise because a few months ago he could have cared less about anything happening with me.
Final note is that my husband has called at various times, and my daughter has called him back at various times, and he always seems to be alone wherever he is, even later at night. I'm guessing things didn't work out so well with his 26 year old girlfriend or he's keeping it casual. Hopefully being alone in our old city while all the 'action' is happening up here with us and his family and friends in our Northern city is making him think twice about everything.
There's no indication that my husband wants to fix our marriage, although with each passing week there's still no new mention of divorce, so I don't know what to think. For now I'm leaving everything as-it-is. My husband is sending all of the money I requested each month and has offered to send more.
I'm not too hopeful that my husband will try to fix our marriage because while there's been no new mention of divorce, there's been no apology or mention of reconciling either. I know most of you have recommended that I not consider him again in the future but honestly everything would depend on the circumstances. I'll comment more in another post ASAP and look forward to responding to each of your posts. Thanks again.
As you know, I've been following your posts from the beginning, and when he said what he said about your daughter, I jumped on the "never let him back" bandwagon. I still don't trust him, but I will give him credit for appearing to do SOME things right by her. At least he is still in contact, however sporadic, and even if you can't count on him to come back in 10 days like he said he would.
I think it's great that he misunderstood about the two guys, and suspect he's thinking "wtf????? She's supposed to be heartbroken! How can she possibly be hanging out with him?" Don't disabuse him of this notion. Even if it's in error, it's good for him to think you are not pining away for his return. I still don't think he deserves you, though.
Good on you for not making him feel guilty. I suspect he's rethinking things. But please please please if he's rethinking things, make sure he does the hard work first.
Yes I refer to this as Skype dad syndrome.
A dad behind a screen every 10 days possibly seeing his D?
Really?
V
Hi Nicole, I understand you wanting to find a glimmer of hope in any given scenario. Your H not mentioning D is a positive, but he is not even remotely close to the H you deserve or a father your daughter ought to have. He needs to prove himself to you a thousand times over for what he has done so far. Keep strong. Hugs to both you and your D.
Hi Nicole, I understand you wanting to find a glimmer of hope in any given scenario. Your H not mentioning D is a positive, but he is not even remotely close to the H you deserve or a father your daughter ought to have. He needs to prove himself to you a thousand times over for what he has done so far. Keep strong. Hugs to both you and your D.
This is good advice. And it something that I look back at my sitch and wonder if I set enough requirements for R or not. As LBSs we sometimes are too eager to R without our S doing what they need to do, and it means we risk being right back in the same sitch in the future.
Nicole, don't make it effortless for him to return to the MR.
Hi Everyone,
I wish I could have responded sooner. I've been sick and kept getting worse and worse and finally got on antibiotics yesterday and feel slightly better. Let me start by responding to the most recent comments from the most recent update and then I'll create another post with responses to older comments.
Jim, there are no literal signs that my husband is re-thinking things. I think he's recognized some of his shortcomings as a father and he's also less angry at me, but there are no signs he wants to fix our marriage. He's flying to our city tonight, staying with his family again, and he'll come to visit our daughter tomorrow. He wanted to fix the marriage I'd expect him to ask if he can stay with us, his own family, rather than his parents and brothers. But no, he would rather be with them. Perhaps he has a girlfriend and he promised her he'll stay with them although it doesn't appear to be the 26 year old nurse any longer.
Vanilla, to be fair, my husband calls our daughter every day but only manages to initiate FaceTime every two or three days. His track record of visiting since we've moved here seems to be every 14 days. So he talks to our daughter every day and see's her about every two weeks. I think you may have mis-read the numbers on calls vs. visiting. I really don't know if what he's doing is an improvement or not. Most of my thoughts about him as a father are related to how much of a failure he is, but it seems he's trying to tell himself he's a good dad if he calls every day for a few minutes and visits every few weeks. That doesn't seem sufficient to me.
Arsh, yes sure my husband may have back off the immediate divorce he wanted but he's done nothing to fix the marriage. His slight efforts to communicate with our daughter make him one step above the worst-of-the-worst. My updates are mainly focused on how the crisis we were going through has died down, but sadly it hasn't resulted in any change of heart from my husband.
Steve, unfortunately this has been going on with my husband for years and he left two-and-a-half years ago for eight weeks. He returned and I allowed it to be effortless. Unfortunately I was so heartbroken that I was too happy when he returned to make it difficult. He also came in tears one night, saying he's depressed, wanted to kill himself, was so sorry, etc.. I think one reason why I took him back as easily as I did is because I didn't have many details about his affair. Only later did I accidently find details on an Ipad he gave our daughter still logged into his account. I also found out later that he wasn't staying with his brother as he had said but he had rented his own bachelor pad in Manhattan. Then I was really upset but he kept stringing me along promising to fix everything with he finished his residency, finished his board exams, finished his first few weeks of work, etc.. I wrote about all that earlier so don't want to bore anyone but now I've learned my lesson and I know I can't take him back easily, if at all. But it's not something I need to be concerned about because he's been gone for nine months this time with still no sign of being sorry or wanting to return. If he wants to return in the future it will depend on many things, particularly whether he's received professional help and made verifiable changes to his life. He'd also have to be willing to be transparent again. There would be a long list of things before we could try again, but I've lost hope that will happen. He's long gone now. Perhaps he'll process the divorce when he moves to our state next year or maybe he's fine with staying separated indefinitely since that requires the least amount of effort. Who knows. I wish I had done the right thing when he wanted to return the first time.
Now for the older responses -
Bluesun, I look forward to reading your story when you can post it. It's good you've learned the lesson of patience.
Caz, I'm so glad to hear you've had success with detaching! It's also good to know your daughter stood up for you and herself. I wonder if your husband will ever wake up? It's good you're no longer waiting for that to happen. Will you continue to stay married but separated?
Maika, I'm still trying to survive and stabilize my life. There are no potential new men in my life but if, in a year, the perfect guy comes along then first I wouldn't believe he's so perfect (because now I've learned that lesson when I thought my husband was perfect) then perhaps over time I might start to see such a man as a potential partner. It's all theoretical though because there hasn't been any other man in my life that I've loved like my husband. I have a very limited dating history (meaning only one person before my husband) and I have little interest in dating for religious reasons and being too conservative. I know I'm limiting myself in that regard but I grew up that way and just can't seem to change this mindset. I can't imagine sleeping with various men (or any man) like the few divorced colleagues I have say they've done and I also can't imagine marrying a guy without knowing him like a lot of people do in my husband's home country. I'd almost have to know someone as a friend for an extended period of time to even consider another relationship that could lead to marriage. Right now I have no idea how I'll feel about my husband in another year or two. I think I'll always have hope he'll change because I know he's not the good man I married. This wild streak might run its course but if that takes another ten years then hopefully by that time I'll have met someone else or lost interest in my husband. I'm still just sad that my husband chose to destroy everything we built together and went on a wreckless rampage with no regard for the welfare of my daughter and I. Unless my husband makes big changes to his life he probably will find another girlfriend in the near future, most likely another easy girl in her 20's for fun and entertainment purposes. As for how to influence my husband's behavior as a father - I'm not sure how to do that. I tried for a long time to point out how his actions affected her and his response was always "stop making me feel like sh$t." Nowadays I say nothing. He can show up when it's convenient for him or do nothing at all and I'm just letting him go. Sometimes I send him positive feedback when he does something our daughter likes but I don't know what else to do. If we get divorced then I guess we'll have to discuss custody issues but she's always been 100% with me so I doubt that'll be a problem. There's a lot I'm not sure about right now.
New2nev, I didn't get to read my old messages but I think what I meant about not having anything to offer a new man right is related to lack-of-time. Between caring for my daughter and working multiple consulting jobs I feel I have no time to offer a new man. It takes time and effort to get to know someone. Perhaps when I stabilize my life I'll have the ability to get a babysitter every so often and go out, but even then I'm not interested in having a physical relationship with a man who's not my husband so I couldn't offer that kind of casual fun that some people seek when they're dating. And finally I can't really offer much mental energy to any other man right now because I'm so exhausted from everything. It's not that I don't think I'm worthy or attractive or interesting, I just feel like I'm still barely hanging on and have nothing to offer anyone else right now. I do try to offer encouragement to others and do favors for others though.
Arsh, yes we need to find self worth. I'm not the kind of person who feels the need to focus on myself to feel good because I've lived in many developing countries and observed families in other settings, especially at lower socioeconomic levels, and rarely do the mothers feel the need to focus on themselves. They seem genuinely happy caring for their kinds and seem to accept the work that goes with it. Others who don't have kids seem proud of their careers and extended families. It's somewhat of a cultural idea to focus on ourselves. I struggle with it. For now I'd be more than happy if I could muster up more energy to focus on faith. Things like clothing, shopping, spa days, etc.. don't really interest me although I recognize the need to look as good as possible. I exercise and have hobbies into which I try to incorporate my daughter, but I'd be doing all those things with or without my husband around. I've always lived a healthy lifestyle. For me it's more helpful trying to focus on balancing everything than 'on myself' but I know I'm missing the point in the context of DB. Our children do make everything worthwhile though because their unconditional love is an example of how we should all be every day!
Max123, how long do you think you and your husband will continue to live separately but stay married? This is something I question about my own current arrangement.
Davide, thanks for your encouragement! Yes I've tried to find strength even when I'm tired and deepened relationships with other friends in place of my husband. I look forward to reading more of your thread to learn how you're coping.
Arsh, being a single mom is really, really hard, especially when you and your kid are both sick at the same time and there's no one to help. It makes you understand the value of having a partner - someone who helps when you need help and who you help when they need help. Without a partner it literally comes down to a struggle to survive. If I had parents or siblings who could help then I'd probably be much, much more resilient. Do you have any family helping you currently?
Jim, thanks for your thoughts! I look forward to your next updates on your wife and divorce process.
One more update: My husband is here visiting today. He asked if we can go to a place that our daughter likes that's three hours away. He said we can stay in a hotel there. I told him nicely I can't go due to my work and being ill. Kind of like Jim's wife inviting herself to the movies - they want divorce and freedom yet they have no issue spending time with us when it's convenient for them I suppose.
One more update: My husband is here visiting today. He asked if we can go to a place that our daughter likes that's three hours away. He said we can stay in a hotel there. I told him nicely I can't go due to my work and being ill. Kind of like Jim's wife inviting herself to the movies - they want divorce and freedom yet they have no issue spending time with us when it's convenient for them I suppose.
So why can't he take her?
Steve,
He's never cared for her alone before. She's never slept away from me at night. I don't think it would be a good experience for my husband or daughter to go away alone together. I care more about my daughter's comfort and I know she'd be crying and my husband won't know what to do. It's sad but my husband was never engaged from the beginning.
Steve,
He's never cared for her alone before. She's never slept away from me at night. I don't think it would be a good experience for my husband or daughter to go away alone together. I care more about my daughter's comfort and I know she'd be crying and my husband won't know what to do. It's sad but my husband was never engaged from the beginning.
Ah ok. You said he is Middle-Eastern I believe? Is that normal in his culture? I know that culture tends to adhere strictly to traditional gender roles.
Seems very unreasonable for him to expect you to just up and go like that. Might have been a bit of a temp check. I would have declined but been vague about why. That is my only suggestion.
Steve,
Yes he's Middle Eastern. There are plenty of Middle Eastern men who are Westernized and who help with their kids but my husband isn't one of them. Oddly enough he used to beg me to have kids the first few years of our marriage when I was working full-time and he was staying home studying. He said he'd stay home with the baby. When we actually finally had a child he said on the first or second day "men from my country don't change diapers." He made it clear I was on my own. I could have lived with that. I got an Au Pair for a while and did everything else myself. There are plenty of families where the mother does most of the child raising although my husband obviously had no idea what he was saying years earlier when he said he'd care for the child.
I think my husband expects me to be the same as always - ready to go out whenever he's available. I'm not sure if he realized yet the extent of the damage he's done. We haven't talked about the relationship now since January or early February as far as I can recall.
I probably shouldn't have given any reasons why I can't go although it's kind of obvious that I'm sick so he would have figured that out.
I'd be so happy to take my daughter on a trip with my husband to give her a fun time. I know she'd love it. She'd be so happy to have us all together, walking in the middle holding our hands and we pull her up in the air together like we used to do. I really wish to do that for her. It doesn't seem right at this time though. There's a high chance at some point I'll have tears in my eyes and my husband will get stressed and it won't turn out well.
Perhaps we can do something together nearby some other time.
Nicole - I am sorry to hear he's not as involved as a father. Coming from a culture with strict gender norms, there are tons of young men who are shedding that stereotype and being more involved fathers - from diapers to everything.
I came to post about something else that you said, and I guess it's open to other people as well. You mentioned that you would love to take your D to an activity, even with him, so that she could have fun.
I have really struggled with this - not that this is happening or I see it coming. But, what do you talk about with this person now? i feel like I don't know who my W is. Plus how do you go from separation with NC, except kids, to doing an activity and having a conversation? i just feel like I would have nothing to say to her outside of the kids. I have no desire to inquire about her life, work etc.
Anyways, I think about this a lot in case W ever invites me to do something. I am not initiating anything so I don't think that's going to change.
I can swallow my pride and emotions and be totally cool for the benefit of the kids, but I feel like I have lost how to interact with this person that isn't beyond just Hi or Hello.
Maybe I need to improve my social small talk skills. anyways, I am curious to know how you'd approach this, and others who are following your thread.
Maika, I think it would be tense but if my husband is in a good mood I think we'd just talk about whatever we see in front of us with our daughter. I'd otherwise stay quiet unless he asks something. We went to lunch together when we moved to our new place in April and my husband was in a terrible mood that day and looked down at his phone the whole time. I don't want that to happen again. But if he's acting nice and we have an easy exit strategy I think we could do it. For now I'll keep a distance, potentially for months, until I get a better sense of what's happening. At some point we'll have to talk about getting divorced or whatever our status is. For example if he wants to sell our house where he lives he'll need my involvement. Or if he moves to our current city I assume there'll be some incentive to talk about our finances and a new plan for him to see our daughter. I really have no idea, but a short excursion to make our daughter happy would be great whenever we can pull it off.
If your wife ever asks you to join a family activity and you go you can probably just kind of ignore her presence or smile politely when she speaks without engaging her. Perhaps you can ask Jim for advice too since he and his wife and daughter saw a movie together last week.
I have really struggled with this - not that this is happening or I see it coming. But, what do you talk about with this person now?
I have had the exact same problem and we still live under the same roof. At home you can try being in another room and busy yourself but with a kid's activity you both need to be engaged and it just became way too uncomfortable for me. Maybe when detachment is complete it will feel less awkward but it will always be a farce I think, doing it just for the sake of the kids because they want the parents involved. You have a good point Nicole, either they are 100% involved or not do it at all, half a$$ing shouldn't be allowed, being present both mentally and physically at the activity should be a pre-requisite. So until the day that estranged spouses can be ok in each other's presence I guess we fake it for the sake of the kids.
Arsh, in your case I don't think you can detach as fast as someone with no kids who has a partner that moves out. You have kids plus your partner is still there with you so there's only so much you can do. You almost have to turn to religion or meditation or something that you can integrate throughout your life because you can't really go many places or be alone long enough to detach. It sounds like you're trying though. You're doing the best you can do in your circumstances. Whenever you and your husband do live separately I bet it'll get easier for you quickly, although there are new challenges to living alone with kids. It would be great if you have family that can stay with you for a while.
For me it's hard to fake anything but I try to keep doing housework when my husband visits to stay occupied. It's so hard to hear his familiar voice, to see his handsome face, and to see him in front of me and yet he's no longer mine.
Thanks Nicole. Yeh, I have kinda struggled with this. But it's mostly theoretical as I don't think my W will initiate things either. I am good with that. If she wants anything, she'll have to initiate. I need that in a partner, whether it will be her or someone else.
Maika, you sound like a very decent, smart and fun guy. The fact that your wife hasn't yet regretted her decision is a big mystery. I'll have to post more on your thread about that.
All, I do feel there's been a small change in my husband. In addition to inviting us on an overnight trip today he later said his flight got in late last night so he wanted to sleep here but he didn't want to wake me up it the middle of the night. I was generally busy while he was here but he kept coming to ask me things wherever I was. Our daughter kept asking me to come and play with them so I went for a while and my husband and I talked. I told him how we're going to a nearby city in a few weeks where his brother's family lives and I asked his opinion about our daughter seeing her cousins (her only cousins who she loves). He said yes he will call his brother and he'll try to arrange to come that weekend too. He also stayed longer this time and at the end I said a slight goodbye without eye contact and he said "thank you so much for taking care of her. Thank you for everything." He was also asking if we need more money, said our apartment looks neat and clean, and asked about the antibiotics I was taking. There were other things as well....maybe it's just one of his good days but the multiple references to overnight / sleepover type arrangements never happened since he left last August.
When I mention no eye contact above it's due to me smiling at my husband back in April and he responded "don't smile at me. I don't like it." That's back when I posted about how he seemed to feel guilty. That's when things started to change a bit....right after we moved away.
I'm still not suggesting anything about reconciling but just another series of improved interactions. Tomorrow my husband will visit again in the afternoon. We'll see how that goes and what kind of mood he's in.
I don't want anyone to worry that I'll take my husband back easily or that there's even a chance he'd try to come back, but whatever is happening lately is at least on a positive trajectory. At minimum this is good for our daughter and gives me hope that my husband won't be the total monster that he was for a while forever. I feel it's important to write these updates for anyone who is currently dealing with an enraged defiant spouse.
I'll update again after my husband leaves tomorrow.
But, what do you talk about with this person now? i feel like I don't know who my W is. Plus how do you go from separation with NC, except kids, to doing an activity and having a conversation? i just feel like I would have nothing to say to her outside of the kids. I have no desire to inquire about her life, work etc.
I can swallow my pride and emotions and be totally cool for the benefit of the kids, but I feel like I have lost how to interact with this person that isn't beyond just Hi or Hello.
Maybe I need to improve my social small talk skills. anyways,
Trust me, it's hard sometimes. Like you mentioned, though, small talk skills.... talk about her life, work, and the kids. But don't bring up the relationship.
All, I do feel there's been a small change in my husband.
When I mention no eye contact above it's due to me smiling at my husband back in April and he responded "don't smile at me. I don't like it." That's back when I posted about how he seemed to feel guilty. That's when things started to change a bit....right after we moved away.
I'm still not suggesting anything about reconciling but just another series of improved interactions. Tomorrow my husband will visit again in the afternoon. We'll see how that goes and what kind of mood he's in.
I don't want anyone to worry that I'll take my husband back easily or that there's even a chance he'd try to come back, but whatever is happening lately is at least on a positive trajectory. At minimum this is good for our daughter and gives me hope that my husband won't be the total monster that he was for a while forever. I feel it's important to write these updates for anyone who is currently dealing with an enraged defiant spouse.
Nicole maybe he's starting to regret the way things are working out. I have no doubt that you moving away, him thinking your are seeing someone, that you wouldn't go away with him are making him rethink things. It will take a while. I'm glad things are at least a little less tense than before.
Personally, I think you should talk to him about some boundaries, like not telling you not to smile at him, and not tolerating his staring at his phone while he's with you just because he's in a bad mood, or putting up with him being a dick around you because he's an 'enraged defiant spouse'.
When these waywards want back in, it's not a rye smile they give you. Its a huge big signal like telling you and asking your terms, being willing to change and having done a lot of work.
Its mind reading to read into little gestures!
V
What V says makes a lot of sense, we LBSs are so desperate for a recon we tend to read into all their signals and hope makes us believe there are positive signs somewhere in there
As to your other question pertaining to my sitch Nicole, I absolutely have no family in the US other than H and our kids. My entire family and extended family are back in the country we immigrated from.
Jim, yes less tension is great for as long as it lasts.
Vanilla and Arsh, that's right. That's why I was careful to state that my husband shows no signs of wanting to reconcile but he's showed a positive change. It's nice to feel more normalcy after the enraged state he was in a few months ago. When my husband wanted to come back the first time he abruptly came one night begging to come home so I know if that's what he wants he'll do the same again. I don't expect it though.
All, my husband was here again today and left again to return back to his state. There was less interaction today because our daughter wanted to take a nap and I was laying next to her and my husband worked on his phone. Then he took her out while I worked. He did mention that he's changing his work schedule to go with us when we go out-of-town next week to the city where his brother lives. I didn't invite him. I already have plans to stay with a friend there but if he goes he can stay with his brother and I can take our daughter to visit.
When my husband came back with our daughter he was late for the airport so I had to go down and get our daughter and the car seat so he could leave directly. He got out of the car to take out the seat and I was holding our daughter. Then he hugged her to say goodbye and put his arm around me too. That's definitely the first time since last summer, almost ten months ago, that he's reached towards me. I didn't hug him back or say anything.
We'll see how long this nicer behavior lasts.
Thanks Nicole and Jim on how you would handle small talk situations. Summer is here and tons of opportunities to do stuff outside and lots of festivals, which we used to go to. I am going to go by myself this year and bring the kids. I've decided that I am not going to initiate hanging out with her.
If she does, we'll see. The best way to deal with that situation I see is to treat her like an acquaintance. But, I dunno. Part of me also feels that she doesn't deserve my time after all she's done.
I'll cross the bridge if it comes. I am not worried about it. It's all theoretical and I am not waiting for any invites either.
She told me that she would never bring up the MR issues to talk about a little bit after BD. So be it. I've figured out what I need from a partner and a romantic relationship. Meekness is definitely not one thing that I find cute. And the hard work on her part, I need to see that. I need to see her seek me out. I am not going to make this easy on her.
Anyways, so theoretical and very unlikely this would happen. But I like to think things through and be prepared lol.
Good morning Maika, when my husband was here the past two days we talked about our favorite sports team, cute things that our daughter was doing, options for fun things that my husband and daughter could do together in our area, and other benign topics. It wasn't difficult except for making eye contact with my husband after the "don't smile at me" comment in April. I'm sure you could do it if the opportunity presents itself but yes it sounds like your wife would have to initiate it.
Hi Nicole,
I think you're doing brilliantly. It must be so confusing now that H is thawing somewhat. I don't have any advice as you seem to be handling these interactions really well.
Just tread carefully and protect your heart. No matter how detached we tell ourselves we are...there is always that sneaky emotion that creeps in, and with it expectations. But you've made such great progress, I'm sure these moments are just glancing off the target.
I'm sure H is confused too. Time will tell. Enjoy your trip next week.
Hi Nicole, your H is definitely cooling off. May be it is the realization that life outside of his family is not as exciting as he thought it would be, may be it is the insecurity kicking in that you may be interested in other men or just may be his brain is rewired there is no telling but I think he is showing positive signs. and kudos that you are handling it well. Do what you are doing, stay put and give him a chance to make amends. If he does prove himself then just maybe he will get another chance. You have shown strength in your resilience and managing life on your own. Good for you.
Caz, I'm not sure how to measure my level of detachment. I still miss my husband but I don't call or contact him at all. Thanks for your encouragement. I appreciated all of your kind words last fall when I was going through those health problems. That was a terrible time and I'm grateful for your support!
Arsh, thanks. I don't have much hope that I'll be with my husband again in the future. I'm thankful that we didn't get divorced immediately because I would have been like you breaking down in the mediator's office. On the other hand I've had to adapt to complete uncertainty about the future, not knowing when we'll get divorced, how long I'll spend my life alone, and whether I'll ever meet someone else. In the slim chance my husband would try to return to fix things I believe it would happen around Thanksgiving of this year. This is my his favorite holiday and it's a sentimental one for him because we always spent it together. This past Thanksgiving when we were already separated he sent me a late night text saying "I'm so sorry for everything." It's just like you not being able to predict what will happen with your husband. I don't even want to think about my husband potentially wanting to reconcile because it creates too many emotions and it would be so complicated. I just don't think it will happen though. He's attracted to too many other women now to see me as he used to.
All, another quick update. My husband just called to ask how our daughter is doing. He called while she's at school and he knows she's not home. I said a few words about an illness she's been having and I thought he'd go after that but he hung on to talk more. I then said I'll have her call him when she gets back. It's a small thing, but another sign that he's thinking of our daughter and feels comfortable again calling me directly to ask about her. Not a sign of reconciliation, but at least our daughter is on his agenda.
It is a small, positive sign. But don't stop doing what you're doing. Don't put too much weight in it either. You don't know why he's doing it at the end of the day.
Ovrrnbw, thanks. I won't make any changes on my end. I'm mainly documenting these changes to show how a crisis can eventually pass and normal communications & interactions can resume. A few months ago when my husband wanted to divorce he barely saw our daughter for ten minutes every week or two. Didn't care if we were alive or dead. Never called. Blamed us for everything wrong in his life. Each small positive step is good for our daughter who is the most important person in this situation. I hope I can do the right thing on my end to help my husband and daughter have a healthy relationship and to be as close as possible. I want to protect her in case he disappears again but I also want them to know each other. If anything ever happens to me, God forbid, my daughter will only have her father. Any advice for helping to facilitate the best possible outcome is welcome.
Hi Nicole, I say do not try to build a R between H and your D. He is her father needs to do it on his own. I understand you want them to have a bond with or without the MR, but that should come from him without you facilitating it only then will it be genuine and lasting and there would not be a situation that it will fizzle away hurting your D. I am glad he is trying to build a good R with your D, dont stand in the way but again dont steer it in the way you think it should proceed. Just stand back and watch, if our kids get to have their fathers it a blessing.
Hi All, I keep seeing all of the suicide coverage in the news. I keep remembering my husband begging to come home and saying he'd kill himself two-and-a-half years ago. Then I remember how he hugged me this week and I was reminded that you never know how fragile another person can be or what they're thinking. I'll continue to practice DB techniques but every single aspect of our situations are so hard to grasp, particularly when you don't know if your spouse is mentally ill or just a selfish person who chose a destructive path. I'm aware of the need to focus on ourselves and know we can't control our spouses but I do want to avoid any wrong moves that could push a suicidal spouse to suicide.
Arsh, thanks for your response. I stopped asking my husband to do anything for our daughter a while back, but I hope to maintain a positive relationship with him so he's more likely to visit our daughter. It's hard to explain but basically I don't want his anger at me to cause him to avoid seeing our daughter because it means he'd have to see me. So far we're doing better....I just hope it'll keep getting better. Not in terms of reconciliation but helping my husband feel comfortable visiting our daughter and giving him easy access to her so they can build a relationship. Most of the families in this forum seem to consist of parents who are both involved in their kids' lives and share responsibilities but that hasn't been the case with my husband. He's spent very little time with our daughter and he's just now starting to show more interest. We'll see how it goes.
Nicole, I am concerned that his interest in seeing your daughter is driven by his family rather than internally, and therefore won't last. Maybe I don't understand Middle Eastern culture, but I could see his parents telling him he needed to see his daughter before you taint her against him.
Something else I was thinking about regarding you.... you say he has provided you with money. Have you ever been to a lawyer, to see just how much alimony pen dente lite and child support you might be entitled to under the law? You might think he's being generous, but actually be entitled to significantly more. It wouldn't hurt you to check. Also, having a court order would make you immune to a change in heart by him.
if your spouse is mentally ill or just a selfish person who chose a destructive path
I'm not sure there is a difference. Suicide is the most selfish act one can do. My family has suicide in its history and its something I'll never understand nor will I ever sympathize with. The aftermath effect on those that care about the person is devastating.
I'm sorry but suicide is not a selfish act. No more than dying of cancer is a selfish act. Depression is a terrible life-threatening disease associated with biological markers like brain inflammation, gut dysbiosis and vitamin and hormone deficiencies. It's as deadly as cancer and not just a "selfish" choice. They're too impaired to make a rational choice.
if your spouse is mentally ill or just a selfish person who chose a destructive path
I'm not sure there is a difference. Suicide is the most selfish act one can do. My family has suicide in its history and its something I'll never understand nor will I ever sympathize with. The aftermath effect on those that care about the person is devastating.
I see someone has a very poor understanding of mental health. It's an actual illness, like cancer. My mother had a serious mental health condition which ended in suicide.
Imagine, you have cancer, they tell you there is no more that can be done for it, and you decide to go on hospice. Are you being "selfish" for making that decision? For not wanting to suffer anymore.
Sometimes there isn't enough medication to help depression and mental illness. It can't be cured. And that, sadly enough, is going on hospice for them.
Sorry, hot button topic for me. I hope you never have to know the pain of having a disease that makes living absolutely unbearable to you.
Folks, you are entitled to your opinion. I have had people in my family that are very close to me commit suicide. I see the after effects, some have lasted for decades.
Ginger, said "I'll never understand", so I agree with you that my understanding is very poor. And it isn't for a lack of studying the issue nor for a lack of having to deal with it.
This is a very hot button issue for me too. I have said all I will say on the subject. Peace. (Note, my originally typed out answer was as snarky, if not more so, than the responses I've already received on this issue. However, I went back and unsnarked it. I think we could have had a good discussion related to this without the personal attacks, but that ship already sailed.)
Oops, second paragraph should have read: "Ginger, I said "I'll never understand", so I agree with you that my understanding is very poor. And it isn't for a lack of studying the issue nor for a lack of having to deal with it."
Jim, thanks for your thoughts. For better or worse, I don't think my husband's family is a factor. His mother has severe dementia and can't function on her own. His father hasn't seemed to influence much since my husband spends most of his time with his father and brothers when he comes to our city. If his father was encouraging him to spend time with our daughter then he wouldn't host him the whole time at their place. One of my friends here knows my husband's brother and said her husband saw him somewhere and my husband's brother expressed his disagreement at what my husband's done to us. So I guess my husband's increased interest in our daughter is driven by him, but he could fade away at any time. It would almost be better if someone else was involved but that doesn't seem to be the case. I did also see a lawyer prior to moving up here and we determined that what my husband would need to pay each month is the same as what he's paying now. He's actually paying for everything - I only just got paid for the first time last week and now I have debt on my credit card which I've never had before so I need to pay that off. The main benefit if we were to divorce right now would be to ask my husband to pay off the credit card debt, since he can afford to do so if he re-prioritizes, and to ask for an emergency fund-type lump sum of cash because I depleted my own savings over the past five years for our previous crises when our daughter was born and I needed a live-in nanny. I'm putting the financial conversation on hold for the time being until I get a better sense of what I can earn here where we're at, being the sole care taker of our daughter, and until we sell our house where my husband resides.
Steve and KML, suicide does seem selfish in the sense that it punishes those who are left behind but it seems that people who do it don't see another option. I volunteered for a suicide hotline many years ago and people who called saying they were about to commit suicide were known to call because they wanted someone to talk them out of it. Someone who actually does it without any advance warning must be truly ill. It's hard to understand. I just don't want to wake up one day and learn my husband killed himself. This drives me to try to be as kind as possible given what he's done to us.
All, this is just a general complaint, but my daughter and I have been sick for most of the past month and currently my daughter's been off school for most of the past week. I've had to take time off work and we're just stuck at home most of the time and my daughter keeps crying all day from strep throat pain that hasn't improved with antibiotics. These are times when I'd give anything to have a partner to help out. My friend sent me a message yesterday saying she had a headache and her husband took their daughter out for the whole day while she rested. It's such a luxury when there are two parents to help care for children.
You've mentioned in the past about not trusting your husband to take your daughter overnight. I know you've said that he's taken her for a few hours at a time Maybe you should let him work up to overnights. Let him take her to his brothers for a few hours more each time, until she spends the night.
I know that the time away would stress you out initially, but after you are comfortable that he can adequately care for her, it will open up new worlds for you.
Nicole, I understand you fully dear. It must be so hard to be a single mom while both you and your D are sick. And wanting your D to have a father while you may or may not have a H is also just and exactly what a good mom would want. You seem to have a lot of forgiveness for your H, at some point though stop giving him the benefit of doubt. It may be hard for you to detach if you still want to find some reason for his irrational behavior.
I think Jim has a good point, may be start sending your D to stay with H for one night at a time. This may help them build a stronger bond and give you a much needed break.
Hi Everyone,
I've been wanting to respond to everyone's posts and update my own thread but my daughter and I seem to be endlessly sick.
Jim, thanks for your suggestion. I'd love to do try to the overnight visits but they aren't practical at this time. When my husband comes from out-of-state he stays with his family. There are four of them crammed into a small apartment all sleeping together and the apartment isn't even remotely clean, not to mention they all stay awake until 1:00 or 2:00 AM every night and sleep late the next day. My husband has never cared for our daughter, much less any child, at night and hasn't expressed any interest in doing so. He has no tolerance when our daughter cries and leaves the house or closes the door so I can calm her down. My daughter's also never slept away from me before and I anticipate it would be a disaster to send her to my husband's family's place even if he was willing. It's an hour away so I imagine him driving her back here screaming at 3:00 AM and then not coming again for months due to the trauma. At this time I don't see it as an option but it'd be great if I could do that. I've never even seen a movie or gone out with friends in the evening in the four years since our daughter was born. She's always been with me and even sleeps in the same bed as me. I write all that just because there are some solutions that make so much sense, like this one, but I don't know how to work around these barriers to ensure it'd be a success. Maybe when my husband moves up to this city in a year (if ever) and has his own place he can try to host her. By that time she'll be five and hopefully more independent.
Arsh, thanks for your empathy. Most of the time I feel just clueless about my husband and don't know whether he deserves forgiveness, sympathy, a jail sentence, or to be completely ignored but I'm trying to be friendly and cooperative for our daughter's sake. If / when we get divorced, which is the most likely outcome, how we communicate beyond that will probably depend on the fairness of the divorce and how it addresses our needs on both sides. I also know I became an abusive terrible wife after his first affair so I want to improve myself as a person. I also know people who battle mental illness sometimes can't control their actions although no one has definitively diagnosed my husband with anything but suicide is always a concern.
The general update is that my husband calls every day but there hasn't been much new. Our daughter and I have been really sick and once on the phone I kind of lost it for five seconds and I expected my husband to get mad and hang up like he did with my illness last fall but instead he was empathetic and said "I know I'm so sorry for everything you're going through." He prescribed medication that our daughter's pediatrician didn't want to prescribe and it finally helped her, so I thanked him a lot for that.
My husband had said a few weeks ago he was arranging to come and join us on a weekend trip to a nearby city but he either forgot or made other plans because he never mentioned it again and didn't come. He said he was going to come this week, but he called a while ago and still didn't mention anything about when he might come. I didn't ask because I don't want him to think we're waiting for him.
It's kind of strange at times. I don't ask my husband anything about his life at all, so I have no idea what's happening with him. He may be in a full relationship with another woman going out every other night and making plans for the future or he may be lonely and depressed. I have no clue. He doesn't ask me much either, and I don't volunteer an information, so he doesn't know anything about me except what relates to our daughter and finances.
My friend over the weekend was encouraging me to decide how long I'll stay this way but I don't know. I'm not looking for advice necessarily but I want to say that right now I prefer to leave the future open-ended for as long as possible. I have my own career and financial goals and our daughter has her own development goals but I have no relationship goals. I guess unless there's a miracle and the right man magically appears I'll be single for a long time because I just can't imagine dating.
That's all for now....
I also know I became an abusive terrible wife after his first affair so I want to improve myself as a person.
I know it is not inherent but go easy on yourself. He did cheat on you and break the basic building block of a MR. Forgiveness for such things takes time, you are human and would react like anybody else would. That does not mean he would take off again, since he did it only shows he was not done with that need in him yet.
Stay strong and hugs to both of you.
I've never even seen a movie or gone out with friends in the evening in the four years since our daughter was born.
Seriously???? She's never had a babysitter? It's time you found one. Even if she just comes and stays with you while you're home working at first, once she gets used to someone and you feel you can trust that person, you NEED to be able to get out and be an adult once in a while.
Arsh, that's right. He feels he missed out on life and isn't done yet having fun, so even when he came back the first time I guess he still felt the need to live out his dreams so he left again.
KML, she's had a babysitter and even an Au Pair (live-in nanny) but for various reasons I've never been able to go out at night. Everyone's always watched her during the day while I work. At night I usually drop dead plus in the places where I've lived, sitters want $20 per hour so even a night out will easily cost $100 plus whatever I do out which is too much of a luxury. I did find someone in my new building who I hope to use to go to the local divorce care group. We've been sick so I haven't been able to schedule her yet but I hope to do it soon.
My friend used to trade babysitting with some friends of hers. She watched their two kids one night a week while the parents had "date night"; in exchange, a couple of times a year they would take her son for a week while she was on tour.
Jim, thanks for your suggestion. I'd love to do try to the overnight visits but they aren't practical at this time. When my husband comes from out-of-state he stays with his family. There are four of them crammed into a small apartment all sleeping together and the apartment isn't even remotely clean, not to mention they all stay awake until 1:00 or 2:00 AM every night and sleep late the next day. My husband has never cared for our daughter, much less any child, at night and hasn't expressed any interest in doing so. He has no tolerance when our daughter cries and leaves the house or closes the door so I can calm her down. My daughter's also never slept away from me before and I anticipate it would be a disaster to send her to my husband's family's place even if he was willing. It's an hour away so I imagine him driving her back here screaming at 3:00 AM and then not coming again for months due to the trauma. At this time I don't see it as an option but it'd be great if I could do that. I've never even seen a movie or gone out with friends in the evening in the four years since our daughter was born. She's always been with me and even sleeps in the same bed as me. I write all that just because there are some solutions that make so much sense, like this one, but I don't know how to work around these barriers to ensure it'd be a success. Maybe when my husband moves up to this city in a year (if ever) and has his own place he can try to host her. By that time she'll be five and hopefully more independent.
Nicole, I'm sorry about the 2X4, but the entire paragraph you've written is one giant excuse. He bears half the responsibility for your daughter. You DON'T bear it ALL. Your daughter won't be broken or traumatized because she isn't sleeping in the same bed as you one night and gets to stay up late with her aunt and uncle and daddy on occasion, and if he has to deal with her screaming at 3am for an hour, so what? He won't come back? Small loss. She screams for an hour at 3am? So what. She'll get over it. It will be harder for you to let her go than it will be for her to go with daddy to visit family. You need to SELL it rather than let YOUR insecurities about the situation show.
And note the highlighted text above. This is precisely the reason you have to get a babysitter, or have H watch your daughter. Others have responded, and I'm not going to quote them, but they are exactly right. There are other options for babysitters. And I'm sorry, $20 per hour is crazy. You can find cheaper alternatives that are just as good. Didn't you say you moved to this city because you have friends/family around? Use them. You don't need to go on a date. Just go for a drink with a girlfriend or family member, or go to a movie you want to see by yourself. YOU HAVE GOT TO HAVE SOME TIME TO YOURSELF. Your daughter will be better off if you do because you will be be healthier and happier.
And unless you plan to go off to college with your daughter, you need to allow her a measure of independence. You are not doing her any favors by being with her ALL the time. Don't mistake YOU FEELING YOU NEED TO ALWAYS BE THERE WITH HER with HER NEEDING YOU THERE ALL THE TIME. They are not the same, and moreover, she NEEDS TO BE AWAY FROM YOU SOMETIMES, and YOU NEED TO BE AWAY FROM HER SOMETIMES.
I hope I haven't overstepped, but something else that strikes me is the effect all this may have had on your marriage. Maybe part of the reason H left is you allow D to take up all of your attention and energy, and you had no time, energy or attention left for your H or marriage. The first counsellor we went to told my W that she needed to save some time and energy for her husband and marriage. She said "no, my kids need all that, and he'll just have to suck it up and deal with it." Well, fast forward 10 years, and our marriage has deteriorated to the point of divorce. How much good did showering all that attention on the kids do over the long term? They are both very distressed over the divorce, suffering pretty severe consequences. In hindsight, they would have been FAR better of with less attention then, and an intact family now.
I agree with much of what Jim said but not this:
And I'm sorry, $20 per hour is crazy.
Ummm....Jim....not in New York City it's not. Especially if you want to get someone reliable and not a 15 year old who's going to bring her boyfriend over.
Jim and KML, thanks for your thoughts. This is such a sensitive topic for me. I should point out again that I'm talking about not having gone out at night but I've gone out during the day and early evening. I've done the sharing thing during the day but at night it's hard for someone else to singlehandedly put your toddler and their toddler to sleep. I also moved here where I have friends but they either work full-time or they have their own kids. They can help during the day but again, night time is harder. Yes in NYC, where I lived, $20 is the norm and some babysitters even want $25 per hour. Then even when we moved, which was to another expensive area, my own neighbor wanted $20 per hour and the sitters I found on care.com wanted the same. I found a high school student from my church who'd watch my daughter for $10 per hour so I used her every week but I never went far away because she had no experience with kids whatsoever. I know there are plenty of babysitters out there, but to keep trying new ones until you find the best one takes a long time....anyway I found the whole childcare issue to be complicated. I'm morally against paying some $20 per hour to text their friends while your kid sits in front of the TV or sleeps. They'd have to be spectacular in my view to get $20 per hour. I'd rather not go out than to pay someone that amount plus tip.
Jim yes those are a lot of excuses but I'm fed up with the role my husband has played with our daughter. I feel like I've tried many times over the past four years to get my husband involved and it hasn't worked. His excuses aren't even good ones - "Men from my country don't take care of children." "I never wanted her or asked to have her." "I have to write my notes / go back to work / go to check the house, go to the gym, etc.." How do you force someone to take a child they don't want, and how fair is that to a child to be with someone who doesn't want them?
If my husband takes her and she doesn't sleep that will mess up her schedule for a whole week after that and I'm the one who has to deal with the consequences of getting her back-on-schedule. I can't in good faith let my daughter eat at their house. My father-in-law puts raw chicken and lamb directly on the kitchen counter to trim the fat and puts the meat on the bottom of the sink to rinse it. There's blood from meat and fat trimmings visible and then they put fruit and vegetables on the same surface to cut them as well. They have no concept of hygiene. They came from a country where there's no such thing as anti-bacterial wipes. Their toilets are a hole in the ground. So the way they live is simply disgusting to the average Westerner although normal for them. I just don't feel comfortable sending my daughter there.
I know I'm just making more excuses which is the opposite of what you're trying to achieve but I don't feel strongly enough at this time to demand the overnight visits under these circumstances. I guess I'd have to really want it and I just don't.
It's possible that my attention towards my daughter was one of several factors that pushed my husband away, although since he was unwilling to help with her I don't see what alternative I had. She'd scream at night and my husband wasn't willing to help, so under extreme sleep deprivation she started sleeping with me. During the day I couldn't really ignore her and my husband wouldn't care for her, so I had to do it. I did get an Au Pair for a while but I found out soon after she arrived that she lied on her application about her experience with kids just to come to the US. That's a whole other story.
I don't know. I have endless excuses but at the end-of-the-day I'm responsible for my daughter's safety and welfare. I'm working on getting a sitter to go to the local divorce care group and I'm hoping that'll work out, but for now I've accepted my role as a mother and I'm truly happy and honored to raise my daughter. She goes to school and waves goodbye with a smile and her teachers say she does great, so I know she's gaining independence and I want her to gain more. This week she's in a summer camp for six hours per day and the most she's done in the past at preschool is four, so she's progressing.
This is a totally different life than the one I imagined when my husband and I decided to have a child. It's not at all what I wanted. Each innocent child deserves the best and I'm trying my best, but I guess with the range of parenting strategies out there someone will always see things differently.
They're not all excuses. I understand not wanting to leave her with your husband overnight - I wouldn't trust him either.
But think seriously about either finding a regular babysitter or trading babysitting with someone like my friend did - that was a win win.
Nicole, I understand you not wanting her to do overnights with your H right now, but I was blown away about that highlighted red area. You need to get out, see a movie, go to dinner with friends, wit just adults. I would have went nuts if I didn't. I didn't have much help, but I took whatever I could. I hired a babysitter once in a blue moon. I am right outside NYC and yes, the prices sure have gone up, but I paid about $12 an hour, and just to get 3 hours will be well worth your money.
Like Jim said, how did this affect your M? Did you not have date nights? Go out as a couple? Was she in your bed every night?
Of course you are honored to raise your daughter and be a mother. But mothers need self care and activities outside their children with adult interaction.
What life did you envision with your H? Did you see getting babysitting, having date nights, going out with other couples, socializing like adults?