Link to previous thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2774115Recap:
Wife is having something of a midlife crisis, and is in many ways following the script.
She moved out a week ago, and two days ago told me she was dating an aquaintance of ours. Oh course that had nothing to do with her urgency to move out, and she was telling me "to be respectful".
She is now posting pictures of them cheek to cheek on Facebook. Apparently that's respectful too.
She's still pursuing being friendly with me, while I'm trying to implement Sandie's rules and GAL. We had plans to do dinner and taxes this week, I just suggested that we keep it to taxes.
Not sure where this will all land. A month ago I desperately wanted her back, now I alternate between that feeling and anger and disappointment in her.
This community has been fantastic, and just seeing that how similar my experiences are to what other's have been through, and that I am handling a lot of this right, is huge.
reframe I will give you the advice I give everyone related to FB. Just suspend your account. Being on there will be an endless barrage of you seeing things that only upset you.
Hardly anyone takes this advice but I've seen it giving by lots of different "stop a divorce" experts.
Steve85 -
That's very sound advice. I'm not sure how practical it is for me though, since I use FB for a lot of my GAL efforts coordinating activity partners and the like.
Have a coaching session this afternoon. Just need to keep breathing in the meanwhile.
The wife said via text today that "She doesn't mind the idea of splitting vet costs, but it might be a few months before I can really do that".
My gut reaction is that "that's not my problem, and should have been considered before you moved out". But I haven't responded yet. Might wait until after the coaching session to respond.
Anything from the people who have been following this (Maika, JoeJoe, Steve)?
I feel like this is a bit of a double bind.
If I just for the dogs (a shared responsibility IMO) I'm being a bit of a doormat, but I'm also confident that if I pointed out what I wrote above, it would be seen as controlling and trying to force her back.
Honestly it just shows more how little regard she seems to have for anyone or anything besides what she wants right now.
Reframe, I read through your entire story and I really feel for you man. I'm in the same boat, only just starting out. There's no way around it; it's the hardest, crappiest, most awful feeling thing I've ever had to go through.
I don't think you should say anything about the fact she can't pay the vet bills right now. It would only piss her off, probably. WAS/WWs become very, very selfish even if they aren't trying to be and a lot of their thinking just isn't logical or well-planned. They get caught up in what they want and these big decisions they are making for themselves to 'better their life'. Any attempt to burst the bubble is just not going to productive. It has to burst on its own and they have to deal with the aftermath and not have someone (especially your) to blame. I say this with fresh clarity after making a mistake in a convo with my W.
However, that doesn't mean you have to allow yourself to be a doormat. Obviously, these are your dogs too and you aren't going to let them go without vet care just because she can't pay half. What about saying something like, "I understand you don't have the money right now. I can cover and get them the care they need and at the end I will total it up and you can pay me half when you are able?" Just something that doesn't totally let her off the hook and leave you a doormat, but isn't an attack on her 'bubble'. The last thing you want is for her to feel like you are her bubble's enemy.
Regarding the FB issue, I think there is a way you can 'unfollow' someone or tell FB you don't want to see their posts without blocking or unfriending them. They will never the know the difference, but it might be a healthier way for you to continue to use FB without constantly seeing pics of your W and her bf and getting punched in the gut.
Hey reframe!
In the beginning, every concession or agreeing to do something looks like you're being a doormat. You want to stand up for everything and that there is no dent in your self-respect armor. So, you go from one extreme to the other. I am not saying you're doing it, but that the thinking process moves from one end of the spectrum to the other and is unable to parse through the gray in between.
In the case of your dogs, instead of thinking about what W needs to do, what are your values? Are you going to let the dogs starve? Are you going to let them stay sick? Make a decision from those values.
Also, can your W truly financially contribute to this right now? If no, I wouldn't push this issue. On the other side, can you financially take on this cost fully? If not, then the option would be to give up the dogs to new homes. So, think about all of that.
Always always start thinking about your potential actions from what your values are. Don't try to stick to W. Be firm, assertive, pleasant, and handle your business.
Give your W all the space that she wants, and not control her through finances or other measures. I am not saying give her a free pass, but define your actions with confidence.
yes, she has little regard for anyone else but her right now. let her take the ticket to the moon and see how things really are. She'll find those craters as soon as she gets up close.
Maika -
thanks! that is great advice. My concern was coming like I was trying to control things.
I'm financially comfortable, so paying for the dogs is not a big deal, and I'm obviously not going to fail to take care of them.
I think a reasonable approach is to say "I think the dogs are a shared responsibility. I'll keep track of expenses, and you can pay me back one you're more settled".
thoughts?
I don't see a problem with that. That sounds reasonable.
So, aside from the dogs and the FB stuff with W, let's change the focus back to YOU.
What are you doing for GAL? What are some of the reasons why you think the MR failed? How did you contribute to that? How did she contribute to that?
Now is the time to get you off the shaky ground and get your feet planted firmly over the next few months. What's the game plan?
Maika:
- To GAL:
I'm pursuing my non-work passion (climbing) as much as possible, and trying to keep busy and expand my social circle. I have a few home projects as well that take a fair amount of time.
- Reason the MR Failed:
The first post on my thread has a pretty through recap of the troubles.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2774115Things I could have done better:
- I could have been less emotionally attached to sex. I could have pouted less when she wasn't interested.
- I could have been more supportive when she was sick. I tried to support her, but not always the way she needed. I did at times question and invalidate. I did try to push her (I thought I was being supportive, but she didn't take it that way).
- I could have been less focused on pursuing climbing, and more on the enjoying the moment.
Things she could have done better:
- She could have CONSISTENTLY tried to work on things. She claims the she "Gave and gave for years, and I just took" . It seems to me (and most outsiders) that she would try sporadically, but never make a sustained effort.
- Along these lines, right after our first fight/bomb drop she bough some books on mindfulness in relationships, but she never actually READ them (I did).
- she could have communicated her needs better. IF she had said "I'm scare, please stay with me" when she was sick, I never would have left her. She thinks she was a blunt and open communicator, but often she wasn't.
- She could have taken more responsibility for her actions. A recurring them in our relationship was that everything was my fault.
My game plan:
Take care of the dogs.
Climb as much as possible.
Expand my social circle and meet as many people as possible.
Start saving money very aggressively again (I want to retire early)
At some point I'll want a partner, (I miss having an adventure buddy, I miss sex after 6-12 months of living in a dead bedroom), but I'm NOT ready to date anyone yet.
Oh reframe! we have so much to talk about. Just about climbing alone will be awesome
I have to run to a meeting but will get back to you soon. Hang in there bro! I see so much in your sitch that resembles mine. Will get back to you soon.
Setback (for me) that I have no one but myself to blame for.
I snooped a bit, and saw that she used her ovulation tracker (i.e. avoiding getting pregnant) last night.
I knew she was sleeping with OM, but the visceral confirmation that my wife has sex with him last night is really hitting me hard.
We're supposed to do taxes together tomorrow, I'm not sure how I can keep my rage and depression to myself when we do.
I feel pretty down and hopeless right now.
I realize the snooping is self sabotage. Really struggling right now though.
Feeling hopeless about the future of our relationship, and about my ability to move past it and work on myself.
Part of my feels like I should just file for D.
What about saying something like, "I understand you don't have the money right now. I can cover and get them the care they need and at the end I will total it up and you can pay me half when you are able?" Just something that doesn't totally let her off the hook and leave you a doormat, but isn't an attack on her 'bubble'. The last thing you want is for her to feel like you are her bubble's enemy.
please don't send that message... that comes across soooo weak... maybe you can ask her how she would like to handle it... "so--how do you suppose we ought to go about taking care of this?" or, "any thoughts on how we might handle the vet bills?" let her ask you for the help... let her offer to pay you back... i'm sure she has funds to spend on her new life with OM... maybe she ought to budget accordingly, instead of expecting you to help fund her WW living...
my two cents
--artista
I don't get it - she's had issues in the MR with sex and not wanting it or being able to have it, and has given you grief about you wanting to have sex, but now is having sex with other people????
I concur with the view that you should snoop to get intel and once you have intel, back off and stop. I think you have your intel. Now stop. As you can tell, this is going to harm you and set you back in your own healing.
If you feel like you can't hold it together when you see her to do the taxes, why don't you postpone it a week or two. This way it gives you some space and time to deal with what you just found out and ground yourself so you can get through an interaction with her.
Alternately, do you HAVE to do the taxes in person together? Is there a way around that so you don't have to see her?
Listen, now is the time for super focused self-care. You have to do things that will help you jumpstart your path of healing. Do you have a counselor you can see? I think that putting your focus on climbing and expanding your social network are really good things. Why don't you start expanding your social network at the climbing gym? how long have you been going there?
I am sorry that you are going through this with the new intel. But at least you know now.
What about saying something like, "I understand you don't have the money right now. I can cover and get them the care they need and at the end I will total it up and you can pay me half when you are able?" Just something that doesn't totally let her off the hook and leave you a doormat, but isn't an attack on her 'bubble'. The last thing you want is for her to feel like you are her bubble's enemy.
please don't send that message... that comes across soooo weak... maybe you can ask her how she would like to handle it... "so--how do you suppose we ought to go about taking care of this?" or, "any thoughts on how we might handle the vet bills?" let her ask you for the help... let her offer to pay you back... i'm sure she has funds to spend on her new life with OM... maybe she ought to budget accordingly, instead of expecting you to help fund her WW living...
my two cents
--artista
agreed! Never fund her WW living ways... even in a secondary manner.
Good for you on the rock climbing... keep it up!! It is fun isn't it? and has a nice social dynamic.
For good ole facebook... I recommend blocking her. If she wants to post stuff like that, then just block her. I did early on... and it was one of the best moves I made, 3 years later it is still that way :-). At the very least unfollow her.
For the taxes, I think this is a good opportunity for you. Request the required documents you need from her and take care of it on your own.
Good luck!
Maika -
W.r.t. sex, there were health issues at play, we had an absolutely amazing sexual connection early on, but she was on hormonal birth control for years, which can really tank some people's libido. She claims that now that she's off it (for other health reasons) she's turned on "all the time" but she's also point blank said that she isn't attracted to me anymore.
There is also a lot of baggage and resentment over the issues we've had with it over the years. We'd seen a few therapists about it, and I thought we'd gotten past it briefly, but it was an issue that always returned. I'd considered leaving over it a few times.
Pinn -
I've been climbing (all styles from bouldering to alpine mixed) for around 15 years, it's been a real passion of mine.
One of the issues is that OM is a yoga instructor at the gym where we both go (We were both his students) and I'd rather avoid seeing them together.
I think I can hold it together when we do taxes and keep it about business,
I also need to ask if she wants to stay on my medical insurance (and pay me for it) since open enrollment is coming up. and discuss paying for the dogs. One of the points Chuck made was that I don't want to give the appearance of being punitive. I canceled our plans to have dinner then, so I am sending the message that I'm not hanging out with her right now, but I don't want to appear to be pouting and withdrawing.
She's acting kind of like a kid who said "I don't want to go to the dance with you, but we can still be friends". She doesn't seem to have any grasp of the magnitude of throwing away an 11 year relationship and wants to act like things are still fine between us. Still hugs me when she sees me, etc...
Good call on unfollowing her on Facebook. Last night I noticed that she hid changed her relationship status (to show nothing - it had still showed me as married) and it sent my mind cart wheeling again. I managed to sleep for about 5 hours...
Maika -
She's acting kind of like a kid who said "I don't want to go to the dance with you, but we can still be friends". She doesn't seem to have any grasp of the magnitude of throwing away an 11 year relationship and wants to act like things are still fine between us. Still hugs me when she sees me, etc...
yea.. this is what you have to break and the earlier the better. I'm not suggesting being punitive... but no more hugs. Friendly neighbor is all you are now. Good call on canceling dinner.
I would still block her but that is up to you. You got this! Focus that energy else where!
I think I can hold it together when we do taxes and keep it about business,
Why do you have to do taxes together?
I also need to ask if she wants to stay on my medical insurance (and pay me for it) since open enrollment is coming up
Why would you ask her this? Your still married correct?
and discuss paying for the dogs.
I have two dogs and my W moved out, we never discussed them once. What needs to be discussed? Do they go to doggie daycare every day or something out of the ordinary?
I am sending the message that I'm not hanging out with her right now, but I don't want to appear to be pouting and withdrawing.
Why do you have to send her an email explaining your intentions?
Good move unfollowing her on Facebook.....I recommend you stay off SM completely.
I think I can hold it together when we do taxes and keep it about business,
Why do you have to do taxes together?
We have complicated taxes, and we get significantly more money back filing as married.
I also need to ask if she wants to stay on my medical insurance (and pay me for it) since open enrollment is coming up
Why would you ask her this? Your still married correct?
Still married legally.
I'd rather change to a different plan. She currently pays me $200 a month for her health insurance premiums. Since open enrollment is a two week period, if we want to make changes, now is the time.
and discuss paying for the dogs.
I have two dogs and my W moved out, we never discussed them once. What needs to be discussed? Do they go to doggie daycare every day or something out of the ordinary?
They go to expensive training. One has behavioral issues. We're supposed to have shared custody of them, so I feel that their financial upkeep (vet bills, training etc.) is a shared responsibility.
I am sending the message that I'm not hanging out with her right now, but I don't want to appear to be pouting and withdrawing.
Why do you have to send her an email explaining your intentions?
I didn't - I the "message" I sent was by my actions :-)
Good move unfollowing her on Facebook.....I recommend you stay off SM completely.
That's a bit of a bind. I'd rather stay off SM, but it's also very instrumental in my GAL efforts, since a lot of my climbing partners use it to communicate.
We have complicated taxes, and we get significantly more money back filing as married.
That is fine but why does it have to be done together with the both of you being present in each other's company. I filed our taxes this year as MR, my sent me her documents and I filed. She wasn't present.
Just make sure you are not looking for reasons to interact or be in her presence.
I'd rather change to a different plan. She currently pays me $200 a month for her health insurance premiums. Since open enrollment is a two week period, if we want to make changes, now is the time.
If this is BAU for you and would normally be a topic of conversation then fine....I just would not go looking to make a bunch of changes just because of the situation. Most insurance plans have significant life event clauses that allow you to change in the middle of your plan for these types of situations.
They go to expensive training. One has behavioral issues. We're supposed to have shared custody of them, so I feel that their financial upkeep (vet bills, training etc.) is a shared responsibility.
Makes sense, when my W moved we both sat down and agreed on what each of us would pay based on our incomes. If you haven't already done so then I definitely would pursue some sort of an agreement between the both of you.
The financial piece is hard to navigate......you don't want to pay for their lifestyle but you also don't want them to stay in the house just for financial reasons either. When my W told me she wanted to go I just said ok let's sit down and discuss how we can make this happen.
I didn't - I the "message" I sent was by my actions :-)
Ok cool, yes by your actions no words. It is time to really stick to Sandi's rules, strictly NC unless it is about money or I guess your dogs
That's a bit of a bind. I'd rather stay off SM, but it's also very instrumental in my GAL efforts, since a lot of my climbing partners use it to communicate.
If you must just don't take the bait and peak at what she is up to. The struggle is not with her but with yourself.
We have complicated taxes, and we get significantly more money back filing as married.
That is fine but why does it have to be done together with the both of you being present in each other's company. I filed our taxes this year as MR, my sent me her documents and I filed. She wasn't present.
Just make sure you are not looking for reasons to interact or be in her presence.
No. I loaned her the laptop with turbotax on it. She's entered her stuff, we're just sitting down together for the "finale"
I'd rather change to a different plan. She currently pays me $200 a month for her health insurance premiums. Since open enrollment is a two week period, if we want to make changes, now is the time.
If this is BAU for you and would normally be a topic of conversation then fine....I just would not go looking to make a bunch of changes just because of the situation. Most insurance plans have significant life event clauses that allow you to change in the middle of your plan for these types of situations.
Yeah, this is tricky A qualifying life even is a marriage or divorce. We're separated but not divorced. Right now she pays me $200 a month for her premiums.
I don't want to precipitate a divorce, so I don't know if it's better to give her the option to get off my coverage now - or just say and do nothing.
They go to expensive training. One has behavioral issues. We're supposed to have shared custody of them, so I feel that their financial upkeep (vet bills, training etc.) is a shared responsibility.
Makes sense, when my W moved we both sat down and agreed on what each of us would pay based on our incomes. If you haven't already done so then I definitely would pursue some sort of an agreement between the both of you.
The financial piece is hard to navigate......you don't want to pay for their lifestyle but you also don't want them to stay in the house just for financial reasons either. When my W told me she wanted to go I just said ok let's sit down and discuss how we can make this happen.
Right. I think I'll indicate that I feel they're a shared responsibility and ask how she wants to handle it. I'm fine with keeping track and having her pay me back in the future, but I think the advice that I wait for her to suggest it is sound.
I didn't - I the "message" I sent was by my actions :-)
Ok cool, yes by your actions no words. It is time to really stick to Sandi's rules, strictly NC unless it is about money or I guess your dogs
Yeah, this part is really tough. It's so counterintuitive. I feel like I'm going to miss the chance to recon by not being there and staying close. I know from these boards that that's not true - but it's a constant struggle.
That's a bit of a bind. I'd rather stay off SM, but it's also very instrumental in my GAL efforts, since a lot of my climbing partners use it to communicate.
If you must just don't take the bait and peak at what she is up to. The struggle is not with her but with yourself. [/quote]
Absolutely. This is tough.
I need to unfollow her.
Today she posted something on FB about "how blessed she feels, in so many ways today". I'm not sure if she's trying to convince herself, or other people, but <gag>
I'm pretty sure if you're that happy you just ARE, you don't need to make public declarations of it.
Man.... gotta let go of her on social media. Trust me on this one. For your own sanity, block her and if you don’t want to do that then unfollow her immediately
No. I loaned her the laptop with turbotax on it. She's entered her stuff, we're just sitting down together for the "finale"
Just make sure you are not looking for reasons to see her. You can pull up Turbo Tax on any computer and log in to see what was filed.
I did our taxes and sent my W an email letting her know how much of a return we were getting.
I don't want to precipitate a divorce, so I don't know if it's better to give her the option to get off my coverage now - or just say and do nothing.
Is she still paying you the $200 a month? I would not do anything that would be perceived as advancing the D if you don't want one. My 10 cents
Yeah, this part is really tough. It's so counterintuitive. I feel like I'm going to miss the chance to recon by not being there and staying close. I know from these boards that that's not true - but it's a constant struggle.
Remember your W is an A with another man....why would you want to be close to her? If you do she will view you as being weak. Yes hard, but the truth. Read up on Alpha Males and male/female relationships.
Recon will come on her timeline not yours.......just remember the faster you heal, the faster you get your feet underneath of you and start moving forward without her your timeline for recon will be reduced.
Also realize that you may get D'd before it ever happens, if it happens. Accept your MR is over and many spouses never return.
Right. I think I'll indicate that I feel they're a shared responsibility and ask how she wants to handle it. I'm fine with keeping track and having her pay me back in the future, but I think the advice that I wait for her to suggest it is sound.
It just depends on what type of financial burden it is putting you in. When my W moved out I paid more of the expenses because I make more money. Try to think big picture and do you feel like your being taken advantage of. If you feel this way then it might be worthwhile to bring it up and be honest with her about what you can and can not afford.
Today she posted something on FB about "how blessed she feels, in so many ways today". I'm not sure if she's trying to convince herself, or other people, but <gag>
If you say you can't get off of SM for GAL reasons then so be it but I would un-follow her if it is going to mess with your mind. I personally would do it because I would not want to hear or see those things.
Also remember it is time for you to circle the wagons, you circle the wagons around yourself. Don't put yourself in a position that makes you uncomfortable, sacrifices your values or your morale compass. You are weak, confused, hurt and emotionally spent (this is not an attack I was there 11 months ago) so only do things that make you feel good and that start to build your self-esteem.
About 2 months after my W told me she wanted a D I had to ask her to not come to my birthday party because she didn't make me feel good and I was emotionally weak. You will have to make some of the same decisions until you are emotionally able to stand on your own.
No. I loaned her the laptop with turbotax on it. She's entered her stuff, we're just sitting down together for the "finale"
Just make sure you are not looking for reasons to see her. You can pull up Turbo Tax on any computer and log in to see what was filed.
I did our taxes and sent my W an email letting her know how much of a return we were getting.
I don't want to precipitate a divorce, so I don't know if it's better to give her the option to get off my coverage now - or just say and do nothing.
Is she still paying you the $200 a month? I would not do anything that would be perceived as advancing the D if you don't want one. My 10 cents
She is. She also said she thought she might qualify for medicaid on her own. So I'm not sure which action (leaving the status quo or suggested we cancel her coverage during open enrollment w/o needing a divorce) is less likely to lead to a D.
Yeah, this part is really tough. It's so counterintuitive. I feel like I'm going to miss the chance to recon by not being there and staying close. I know from these boards that that's not true - but it's a constant struggle.
Remember your W is an A with another man....why would you want to be close to her? If you do she will view you as being weak. Yes hard, but the truth. Read up on Alpha Males and male/female relationships.
Recon will come on her timeline not yours.......just remember the faster you heal, the faster you get your feet underneath of you and start moving forward without her your timeline for recon will be reduced.
Also realize that you may get D'd before it ever happens, if it happens. Accept your MR is over and many spouses never return.
Right. I think I'll indicate that I feel they're a shared responsibility and ask how she wants to handle it. I'm fine with keeping track and having her pay me back in the future, but I think the advice that I wait for her to suggest it is sound.
It just depends on what type of financial burden it is putting you in. When my W moved out I paid more of the expenses because I make more money. Try to think big picture and do you feel like your being taken advantage of. If you feel this way then it might be worthwhile to bring it up and be honest with her about what you can and can not afford.
See, realistically I can afford the dogs. But part of me does feel that it's a shared responsibility and I don't want to enabled her fantasy where she's free and independent, but I still take care of things for her.
Today she posted something on FB about "how blessed she feels, in so many ways today". I'm not sure if she's trying to convince herself, or other people, but <gag>
If you say you can't get off of SM for GAL reasons then so be it but I would un-follow her if it is going to mess with your mind. I personally would do it because I would not want to hear or see those things.
Also remember it is time for you to circle the wagons, you circle the wagons around yourself. Don't put yourself in a position that makes you uncomfortable, sacrifices your values or your morale compass. You are weak, confused, hurt and emotionally spent (this is not an attack I was there 11 months ago) so only do things that make you feel good and that start to build your self-esteem.
About 2 months after my W told me she wanted a D I had to ask her to not come to my birthday party because she didn't make me feel good and I was emotionally weak. You will have to make some of the same decisions until you are emotionally able to stand on your own.
Yea, really struggling right now. I'm going to unfollow her. I'm having a hugely hard time accepting that my M is over.
unfollowed her on FB.
One positive step down.
Reframe, i have been following your story as it shares a lot with mine. Keep posting and keep up the fight brother!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2784926&page=1
She is. She also said she thought she might qualify for medicaid on her own. So I'm not sure which action (leaving the status quo or suggested we cancel her coverage during open enrollment w/o needing a divorce) is less likely to lead to a D.
If it was me I would leave as is and wait for her to approach you.
See, realistically I can afford the dogs. But part of me does feel that it's a shared responsibility and I don't want to enabled her fantasy where she's free and independent, but I still take care of things for her.
I agree it is a shared responsibility, I think you will know when the timing is right to have the conversation. You don't want to come across as you are punishing her or looking to make a point. Timing is everything. It took me 3 months before I cut my W off and made her start paying her cell bill.
Yea, really struggling right now. I'm going to unfollow her. I'm having a hugely hard time accepting that my M is over.
Good, that is the right move. Your old MR is over the best you can hope for is a new MR in the future. The quicker you accept it, the quicker you dust yourself off and move forward the quicker you will heal.
This part is [censored], I am not going to lie. I cried my eyes out, had sleepless nights, didn't eat anything, always wondered what she was doing, where she was going, etc. TBH the best thing that happened for you is that she moved out. It will help you heal much faster than having to see her every day.
Just remember she is with OM you don't want any part of her during this time if you are going to get her respect back and potentially her affection. You have to respect yourself enough to let her go before she will ever respect you back.
Follow the rules to a T. I can't stress that enough and don't go all Mr. Melty man when you see her.
Joesph9 -
How do you suggest I field it if she continues to make friendly overtures?
I agree that I don't want to accept, but I don't want to come off as if I'm punishing her either.
Saying "We won't be hanging out while you're with OM sounds hurt and vindictive".
My coach suggested a fairly honest approach. Something like:
"I'm not ready for that. I've never been here before. My most important thing now is to improve myself and keep my self respect"
I'm interested in other suggestions though.
How do you suggest I field it if she continues to make friendly overtures?
I agree that I don't want to accept, but I don't want to come off as if I'm punishing her either.
Saying "We won't be hanging out while you're with OM sounds hurt and vindictive".
I'm sorry you lost me here
One of the things my coach really emphasized is that she's convinced herself she's being respectful. In that she moved out before physically consummating the relationship, and she told me about it.
He stressed that I want to pull back, but coming off like I'm punishing her or trying to control her never works.
I was concerned that saying "As long as you're with OM I don't want to see you" sounds like I'm still trying to control things. Not establishing a boundary.
Ok I get it now......I don't think it is punishing you are enforcing your personal boundaries.
If it was me I would pull way back, follow Sandi's rules. Only interact with her about finances and I guess your dogs. No small talk, no chit chat, only respond to actionable texts and if you have to respond to a text because she asks you a questions keep it short to Yes, no, sounds good, thank you, etc. Never initiate conversation unless it is absolutely critical. No excuses, hold the line.
I would pull back, head in the complete opposite direction. If she asks if anything is wrong say "No, everything is good" if she pushes further and asks why your being short or not as talkative etc. then you can let her know that while she is in an A with OM you will be keeping your interactions to strictly business which includes finances and the dogs.
I don't like just making the statement without her initiating the conversation first. Make sense?
She might not even ask......when I pulled way back my W never moved closer. She never inquired.
My 10 cents.
Thanks, that does make sense.
MY W has been attempting to move closer and make plans with me since she moved out. I've been pulling back.
When she told me about OM, she asked if I still wanted to climb with her or I needed time.
I said "I need time".
She has also been asking "are you OK, I mean how are you really" and things like that. Offering hugs, etc.. She's essentially trying to convince herself of how big and loving she's being. I suspect she even believes it.
When she asked what I needed (after telling me about OM) and I said "nothing you can give me", Chuck said I was punishing her and that that was very counter productive.
She's said several times that she "wants to stay friends" though and she still occasionally makes friendly overtures toward me, so I suspect she will bring it up.
Remember the mantra is actions not words.......I would not offer up words unless she presses.
No...you do not want to climb with her.
There is no reason to hug her or for that matter contact her.
When she asks if you are ok.....yes, I am doing great. Offer nothing more...if she asks what's going on keep it vague.
I agree with C you made that statement out of anger but that's ok don't sweat it. If she asks what you need moving forward just a simple I am fine, I am doing well and don't need anything thanks for asking. I gotta run now take care.
Always end the conversation don't hang around or linger.
Years from now you might be able to be cordial but that is pipe dream right now. She is carrying guilt and is trying smooth things over.
Since you are separated the only action you have is to completely go as dark as you can until you are tired of limbo and get to the point that your ready to file yourself.
Hold the line....don't go Mr Melty man
Read Chris 19's threads.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2784478&page=1
Oh and 1 more thing.....get jacked, listen to angry music that motivates you, reach down deep and nut up. New clothes, new hair cut time to transform yourself into an ass kicking machine that has nothing to do with a cheater.
Just be nice and friendly about it.
She has also been asking "are you OK, I mean how are you really" and things like that. Offering hugs, etc.. She's essentially trying to convince herself of how big and loving she's being. I suspect she even believes it.
So manipulative. My W was so affectionate after BD. I think she was trying to make sure I was reeled in solidly as Plan B. I remember a few weeks in I even pointed out how affectionate she had been (because she had become completely unaffectionate) after BD. She said: "Well, I knew you were hurting."
I think you are right, it is a way of alleviating the guilt she is feeling. You seem like a pretty emotionally strong person, remember your strength!
Wow, this is spot on. After discovering the affair, and W moving out in Oct. SHe did this type of thing. affection given "because i know its what you want" despite knowing i know its not what she wanted.
She felt guilty and was trying to balm my hurt, all the while living at her moms and continuing the affair.
That was all in Dec.
She has been NC since Late Jan, so that didn't last long.
Reframe,
Please take J9 advice. Don't offer up explanations if your W don't ask for one. And keep your explanations short. Your life is about actions now. Not words. Hit the gym or the road, get in shape and change up your look. Where tighter shirts as you get fitter. Buy new shoes. Wear different smell goods. Get a different hair cut. Get out and do things by yourself and with friends.
Enjoy life! A.k.a GAL
unfollowed her on FB.
One positive step down.
good for you! i remember when my H stopped following me... it really told me something, because before that, he had been following my every move...
Do you feel insulted, that your W left you for another man and is asking if she can still go climbing with you?
She's said several times that she "wants to stay friends" though and she still occasionally makes friendly overtures toward me, so I suspect she will bring it up.
I can probably count on one hand the times that I have
not heard of a WW say she wanted to stay friends with the LBH.
Do you
want to be friends with someone who has proven she will betray you?
As for as her showing "concern" for how her betrayed H feels...........(
seriously?)............and/or showing affection........it's comprobable to a mother kissing her little boy's boo-boo, so he'll stop crying over the hurt. Feel insulted yet?
WW's have a sense of entitlement. They are arrogant and selfish. The more you show her that you want her disloyal crumbs, the less she'll respect you......and thereby, won't desire you as a man or want you for any type of relationship.....except,
friend-ship.
OK.. She came over and did taxes today. It was incredibly hard, but I stick to the rules.
She texted earlier to confirm that we weren't doing dinner.
I was friendly, but no pursuit.
I noticed a few little comments from her - she asked if I switched climbing gyms, since she hadn't seen me at the one we both go to (I have not switched).
She reached out and felt the material on my shirt once.
A few little temp checks like that from her.
At the same time, things she was saying and doing were still making it clear that she is moving on with her life.
When she left, she hugged me. I responded with a one arm half hug and she commented that it was "a halfhearted hug" and said goodbye. Using the same tone she used to have when I got annoyed about sex and withdrew years ago.
I feel like I did pretty well. I was cordial, but no pursuit. I'm already second guessing not reciprocating the hug. The hardest part when we would fall into working on things together, and some talking and laughing, like old times. It felt very comfortable and familiar. Times like those I feel like I could enjoy dinner with her, although that's not on the table while OM is in the picture.
I really appreciate the support and coaching this community has provided btw. This is the hardest thing I've ever done.
Oh man, the hugs! the hugs! the pitiful hugs!
The hugs don't mean jacks@%t. Trust me - I went through this exact same thing. I was like, man I should give her more hugs or give her fuller hugs. f$%K that!!! Once I realized how pathetic and weak I sounded, I got my back firm up and stood my ground.
Don't worry about the hugs. I say, don't give any hugs. I remember Sandi telling me that if she leaned in for it, I could just say "Thanks, but I don't need a hug" LOLZ!!! I never got a chance to do it because I guess I gave off the vibe that I was done, but I was so ready to pull that line.
I know this is completely counter intuitive to what you're feeling. Don't be a lap dog / puppy dog willing to take whatever scraps she's throwing at you. She just slept with someone else last night man! C'mon.
You got this! I am proud you were able to sit and do taxes with her. S#%t, I wouldn't have been able to do that. So, good start. Now get with the program and keep at it.
What you climbing at? 15 years climbing so 5.13+?
Maika,
Thanks man. I know intellectually that not reciprocating the hug (or half reciprocating) was the right call. Her annoyed reaction actually reenforces that - apparently I'm suppose to just accept whatever bone she throws my way.
I see that sense of entitlement all along in her:
- she was willing to leave the dogs (really) to move out
- she's been alternative crushes, but didn't actually leave until she found an OM to jump right in with.
- she seems to want to act like everything is normal with me. Like we'll still be all buddy buddy (When she wants to of course) after she threw away am 11 year relationship.
My own personal issue is that I'm WAY to willing to blame myself for this. There were things I could have done better to be sure, but I keep going over this in my head, and part of me is still convinced that had I just been more patient and supportive when she was sick (and not worried about our poor sex life) we'd be good now. I talk myself out of this attitude, then back into it, regularly.
W.r.t climbing. I had a major injury and setback a few years ago, and my climbing was mostly sidelined until recently in favor trying to be there for the wife. I climb mid 12s on sport, hard 10/easy 11 on trad.
I've also applied for the AMGA rock guide course this summer.
You?
So, in DR, one of the details of the LRT is to accept SOME but not ALL of the WW invitations to do things.
At what point should I do that? I'm clearly not there. She moved out just under two weeks ago, has an ongoing A (although she doesn't see it that way since we're separated). But it I want to avoid a D at some point I assume I'll need to resume friendly, normal interactions, and allow her to see the positives she is missing?
I'm NOT looking for an excuse to rush this, just wondering how people know when it's time.
My own personal issue is that I'm WAY to willing to blame myself for this. There were things I could have done better to be sure, but I keep going over this in my head, and part of me is still convinced that had I just been more patient and supportive when she was sick (and not worried about our poor sex life) we'd be good now. I talk myself out of this attitude, then back into it, regularly.
This is common, especially for those of us that like to be in control. We assume we could have controlled the situation by fixing what we did wrong. However, your W had free-will. You could have been a perfect spouse (NO ONE IS!) and she could have still chosen this path. So yes, you have to forgive yourself and move forward. That means recognizing your deficiencies and fixing them so that you don't repeat your mistakes in the future.
However, no matter how bad of a spouse you were (except for physical abuse of course!) it did not give her the right to look outside of the MR. She could have continued to work at improving things with you instead of using it as an excuse to go find someone else.
I've often thought about the amount of effort it takes to cheat. Think of all the hiding, lying, covering, manipulating, misdirecting, sneaking, coordinating, and keeping all of that straight. It takes a ton of effort to pull that off! If the cheater used that effort and put it into improving their MR instead then they wouldn't need to cheat.
So forgive yourself, recognize where you made mistakes, fix those mistakes, and move forward! That is what I've done.
But it I want to avoid a D at some point I assume I'll need to resume friendly, normal interactions, and allow her to see the positives she is missing?
R,
This is all a mindset you have to first establish before you will see any changes in your situation. You have to get to a point where you say this is BS! Why am I fuching waiting around as plan B while my W sleeps around to see if maybe she will get tired of it and come back to me.
If you have dinner with her, go climbing with her you are going to end up becoming her gay male girlfriend. Next thing you know she will start talking to you about then men she is seeing.
When someone changes the terms of a relationship that you don't agree with you walk away and never look back and she gets the gift of missing you. That is strength my friend.
Good luck!
At what point should I do that? I'm clearly not there. She moved out just under two weeks ago, has an ongoing A (although she doesn't see it that way since we're separated). But it I want to avoid a D at some point I assume I'll need to resume friendly, normal interactions, and allow her to see the positives she is missing?
This is way far into the future my friend. First rule - if she's having an A, you don't spend a second with her unless you absolutely have to and it's business / kid related. IF you have to see her in person, be strong, confident, and like you have your s$#t together.
And if her A is over, you wait for her to initiate. Anything else in my books is pretty much pursuit. You don't want to do any of that. So, this is not even in the cards right now for you. Plus, you need the space right now to get yourself straightened out. Seeing her or having friendly interactions disrupts that process for you.
My own personal issue is that I'm WAY to willing to blame myself for this. There were things I could have done better to be sure, but I keep going over this in my head, and part of me is still convinced that had I just been more patient and supportive when she was sick (and not worried about our poor sex life) we'd be good now. I talk myself out of this attitude, then back into it, regularly.
AnotherStander had made this brilliant insight in my threads way back. I wish it would be stickied. I am going to give you my paraphrased version of it. After BD, the WAS is in a fog and so is the LBS - but both of them are diametrically opposed. The WAS thinks that everything is the LBS's fault, and the LBS believes that everything is their fault. The WAS is projecting their feelings onto the LBS, and the LBS is internalizing it.
Once the fog lifts for the LBS, they start seeing that the WAS had a huge hand in the demise of the MR and they weren't this perfect angel partner that the LBS had created in their heads. This allows the LBS to start on a journey of self-forgiveness and understanding what they need in a partner.
This doesn't mean don't recognize where you failed, but realize that it wasn't as catastrophic as you imagine it to be. The other person f$%#ed up the MR as much too.
So, don't keep playing the blame game. What I did was I made a list of things that she said I sucked at during the MR, and then I added things where I believe I failed. And then I wrote down the context in which those things happened and what was going on with me. And I started forgiving myself because I knew that I did everything I could in those times. And even more importantly, I started seeing how my W failed to have my back when I was down in the dumps and didn't support me.
This is a journey and it takes time. That's why things like NC, going dark, and GAL are methods to protect and stabilize the LBS, so that they can start their healing journey.
Re: climbing - I've always wanted to do it and I didn't put my needs on the table (a huge problem in my MR) and just did things for W and the kids. After BD, it's the first thing I started - got my belay certification and then started climbing. Made some climbing buddies cuz you can do auto-belays for only so long. I've been climbing for 9 months around twice a week, and I am just breaking into low 5.10. I am only doing sport climbing, and some bouldering, but mostly sport. I wanna focus on that. It's been amazing and I love it so much. I got my kids into it and we go together and they're fanatics now.
Looking forward to going outdoors this summer and trying some routes.
Excellent post. I'm getting there at times, but the revelation never sticks.
For example, back a to 2-3 years into our relationship, I became dissatisfied with our sex life. I bought "The Sex Starved Marriage" and read it. W agreed to read it, but never made it beyond half a chapter or so.
I seriously considered leaving them, my logic being that if I expressed how important something was to me, it should also be important to her (and vice-versa). In hindsight that may not have been an unreasonable position, although I blocked it out since I thought things could get better (and they did, just never consistently)
I see that pattern repeating throughout the relationship. To hear her tell it, she "Gave and gave, and I just took".
From my perspective, while she was very loving and supportive at times, she was never able to CONSISTENTLY prioritize any changes to the R that required real and substantial responsibility on her part.
The fog is still there. That and I have OCD. In most areas of life I control it very well, but it does mean that I tend to ruminate on some areas (relationships)...a. lot.
W agreed to read it, but never made it beyond half a chapter or so.
AND
she was never able to CONSISTENTLY prioritize any changes to the R that required real and substantial responsibility on her part.
Boom! There you go! She never put in real effort to something you NEEDED in your MR. And having a satisfying sexual relationship is very much a part of a MR. What you NEEDED wasn't unreasonable, and is not now either.
This is something you should absolutely have with your future partner. If your W ever came back to recon with you, she would have to truly work on this issue because it is important to you. If she balks, you have your answer - she hasn't changed and your needs are not as important to her.
The fog will be there for a bit. It doesn't dissipate instantly. But, you'll get there with consistent positive actions such as GAL, NC and going dark.
Yes, my daemon here is that the pill had a big impact on her libido, and she always used the fact that she was sick and her hormones were screwed up as a rationale for not doing anything about it.
Interestingly. we looked into alternative forms of birth control, but she was never on board with them until other health issues forced her hand.
She's since told me that she's "turned on all the time" just not attracted to me anymore.
So it's quite easy for me to say I just should have been patient.
One of her big hurts was that I mentioned her libido (or lack thereof) to her new doctor when discussing her health issues.
If I'm honest with myself, I had NO way of knowing at the time that this would be resolved, and I was unhappy with the prospect of a permanent lackluster sex life. But she's still chosen to focus on this as an example of how I didn't support her, and I still have trouble not blaming myself for being more patient.
I wish we could PM on this site. I'd climb with you if were where in the area.
Sounds like there were ways to maybe resolve the sex and libido issues but she didn't want to do them until she absolutely had to do for other reasons.
Man, all the rest of the stuff is just excuses.
I know this is going to sound rough - do you really want to be with a woman who doesn't want to be with you sexually? What do you have to gain from a recon with this woman?
I know this [censored] and you want things to work out with her, but she isn't meeting your needs. You need to build up your self-respect and self-worth and that what you need is as important as the other person in the relationship.
I can tell you from my own experience, my sex life sucked. I wanted a dynamic sexual relationship, which W as not able to offer. If she came back for recon, I would hands down not take her back unless she decided to address her issues.
So, don't sell yourself short. She doesn't want to be with you. Okay! Why do you want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you at every level?
It hurts because you feel a loss of control and rejection hurts the ego. Give yourself time to accept and heal and detach. Your perspective will widen. But right now when the hurt is visceral, go GAL and try and live some life to chip away at that hurt. That's what it's for.
Re: climbing, I'd love to. Not sure where you're at, but majority of folks here are in the US. I am not. And not having a PM function [censored], I know.
Great posts from Maika, take those to heart!
Yes, my daemon here is that the pill had a big impact on her libido, and she always used the fact that she was sick and her hormones were screwed up as a rationale for not doing anything about it.
Sounds like a BS excuse to me. I just did a quick read through WebMD and they basically said there's no correlation.
Interestingly. we looked into alternative forms of birth control, but she was never on board with them until other health issues forced her hand.
Probably because she knew the pill wasn't the problem. SHE was the problem.
She's since told me that she's "turned on all the time" just not attracted to me anymore.
Well doesn't she sound like quite the treasure! How thoughtful of her to share that with you! Between that and telling you she's banging an acquaintance, and then posting chummy pics of them together on FB... ugh. Just ugh. Maika mentioned the fog affecting the LBS as well as the WAS. It's very true. The WAS remembers nothing but bad things about the M and the LBS remembers only the good things. Eventually the fog lifts for both and the WAS remembers things weren't ALWAYS bad, but the LBS remembers the M wasn't so great after all. It can take a year or more to get there, and often at that time the WAS will reach out for possible recon but the LBS is done with them. I think that's where you're headed. I think eventually you'll see recon with her is not an attractive prospect at all.
One of her big hurts was that I mentioned her libido (or lack thereof) to her new doctor when discussing her health issues.
Well that's exactly the sort of thing that SHOULD be discussed with a doctor. Unless her lack of libido is due to lack of interest in YOU rather than a medical issue, as I suspect was the case.
In any event, she's a lying cheater. In a WAS situation we typically advise taking the WAS's criticism to heart and making changes, and you should do that to strive to be a better person but that is not going to change the fact that she is a lying cheater. Leave her to the mess she's made and make yourself awesome. Maybe that will attract her back although by the time you're awesome you're probably not going to want that.
She CAN reform herself and "recover" from being a lying cheater, it has happened (see TXHubby's thread, and also read Artista's insightful posts). But SHE needs to do that work and SHE needs to return to you with a humble spirit.
Thanks guys. This thread may seem a little circular, but it's actually helped a TON. I slept last night :-)
Letting go of blaming myself will be a process, but it's starting to feel real.
Great posts from Maika, take those to heart!
Yes, my daemon here is that the pill had a big impact on her libido, and she always used the fact that she was sick and her hormones were screwed up as a rationale for not doing anything about it.
Sounds like a BS excuse to me. I just did a quick read through WebMD and they basically said there's no correlation.
It depends on the person. IT DOES really screw up some people's endocrine system, in addition to changing partner preferences. Can provide links if you want, but I'm also realizing that this is only a small piece of the issue, so it doesn't matter a ton.
Interestingly. we looked into alternative forms of birth control, but she was never on board with them until other health issues forced her hand.
Probably because she knew the pill wasn't the problem. SHE was the problem.
This is absolutely true. Regardless of the cause (the pill, lack of attraction to me, etc..) SHE wasn't willing to make one of my core relationship needs a priority. When her functional doc mentioned getting her off the pill, she found an alternative method she was OK with within a few weeks.
She's since told me that she's "turned on all the time" just not attracted to me anymore.
Well doesn't she sound like quite the treasure! How thoughtful of her to share that with you! Between that and telling you she's banging an acquaintance, and then posting chummy pics of them together on FB... ugh. Just ugh. Maika mentioned the fog affecting the LBS as well as the WAS. It's very true. The WAS remembers nothing but bad things about the M and the LBS remembers only the good things. Eventually the fog lifts for both and the WAS remembers things weren't ALWAYS bad, but the LBS remembers the M wasn't so great after all. It can take a year or more to get there, and often at that time the WAS will reach out for possible recon but the LBS is done with them. I think that's where you're headed. I think eventually you'll see recon with her is not an attractive prospect at all.
Yes! I mean, I'm sure she views telling me both of these things as being honest and transparent. For the sake of argument, I'll give her a pass there.
It doesn't change the fact that she alternated crushes, and waffled on leaving until she found an affair parter or landing pad, then nothing else mattered and she was gone in a week. THIS makes me think significantly less of her.
One of her big hurts was that I mentioned her libido (or lack thereof) to her new doctor when discussing her health issues.
Well that's exactly the sort of thing that SHOULD be discussed with a doctor. Unless her lack of libido is due to lack of interest in YOU rather than a medical issue, as I suspect was the case.
YES! In fact, when I realized (before BD) what a dark place she was in emotionally, I apologized for bringing it up, and told her "the priority is you getting better".
The fact that I wanted a healthy, vibrant sex life, WITH MY WIFE, is not something I
need to apologize for.
In any event, she's a lying cheater. In a WAS situation we typically advise taking the WAS's criticism to heart and making changes, and you should do that to strive to be a better person but that is not going to change the fact that she is a lying cheater. Leave her to the mess she's made and make yourself awesome. Maybe that will attract her back although by the time you're awesome you're probably not going to want that.
She CAN reform herself and "recover" from being a lying cheater, it has happened (see TXHubby's thread, and also read Artista's insightful posts). But SHE needs to do that work and SHE needs to return to you with a humble spirit.
Yes! I'm starting to realize that. This is not a matter of "please come back, all is forgiven" anymore. For me to see anything worthwhile in an ongoing relationship with her, I would need to see real and meaningful change in her. She would need to be willing to own her mistakes and work on them. No more "I've been trying for years and getting nothing back". This HURTS deeply. The loss of my companion for 11 years, and all our future plans together is deeply painful. But it's a LOT less painful than thinking that I singlehandedly screwed things up. I hope I can hold onto this feeling for more than a day.
Yes, my daemon here is that the pill had a big impact on her libido, and she always used the fact that she was sick and her hormones were screwed up as a rationale for not doing anything about it.
Interestingly. we looked into alternative forms of birth control, but she was never on board with them until other health issues forced her hand.
She's since told me that she's "turned on all the time" just not attracted to me anymore.
So it's quite easy for me to say I just should have been patient.
One of her big hurts was that I mentioned her libido (or lack thereof) to her new doctor when discussing her health issues.
If I'm honest with myself, I had NO way of knowing at the time that this would be resolved, and I was unhappy with the prospect of a permanent lackluster sex life. But she's still chosen to focus on this as an example of how I didn't support her, and I still have trouble not blaming myself for being more patient.
I wish we could PM on this site. I'd climb with you if were where in the area.
I wouldn't beat yourself up too much. Women's libido's ebb and flow. I recently documented a few weeks ago how my wife was insatiable. 4 days in a row, that hasn't happened since year 1 of dating! Then we got into a once a week rhythm. She told me the other night on the way home that the desire was gone again. She said she didn't know if was related to her cycle which is now very unpredictable due to her being peri/premenopausal.
We did end up doing it a couple of mornings ago, but the last few times I've initiated. It appears that her desire to initiate has waned for the time being.
I should note, she said that she isn't having any urges sexually right now, that it isn't just sex with me. Just weird for her to go from thinking about it all time, buying sex toys, etc. To back to nothing. But I guess I will never understand women's sexuality!
rframe, my point is that you don't know if the sex drive is the cause or a symptom. It is just impossible to tell. You could have been the perfect husband and she may never have had much drive within the bounds of your marriage. So go easy on yourself.
One other thing, just because she isn't sexually attracted to you now doesn't mean she can't be in the future. Often times we get the ILYBINILWY speech. "In love" usually, to most people, means sexually attraction. You know, the old, I love you like a brother thing.
But here is the thing, she was sexually attracted to you at one time, right? So she can be again in the future.
One other thing, just because she isn't sexually attracted to you now doesn't mean she can't be in the future. Often times we get the ILYBINILWY speech. "In love" usually, to most people, means sexually attraction. You know, the old, I love you like a brother thing.
But here is the thing, she was sexually attracted to you at one time, right? So she can be again in the future.
Yes, absolutely! We had an amazing sexual connection early on. Positive, playful, passionate and mutually enthusiastic. Probably a 50/50 split in who initiated.
I think it was the best connection and intimacy either of us had ever experienced.
The fact that I wanted a healthy, vibrant sex life, WITH MY WIFE, is not something I need to apologize for.
LOL! Exactly. It wasn't until I came here that I even knew there was such a thing as a SSM. I just assumed that all married couples had an active sex life. I mean I didn't get married just for sex, but it was a pretty important part of the M.
Yes! I'm starting to realize that. This is not a matter of "please come back, all is forgiven" anymore. For me to see anything worthwhile in an ongoing relationship with her, I would need to see real and meaningful change in her. She would need to be willing to own her mistakes and work on them.
That's exactly right. And it can and does happen, there are many examples on these forums. But they've got to have an awakening as to what they are doing and what they've become, and what they may have lost.
Thanks man.
Was doing much better today, but had a lot of interaction with her and it has taken a toll on me. Staying pleasant and upbeat (But no pursuit!) when I interact with her is still really hard. We talked about financial stuff, taxes and dogs. Lots of interactions today.
I just meet her a few minutes ago for her to take one of the dogs for the weekend. She wanted to meet someplace in the middle (ever since I asked her to communicate when she'll be at our place). I let the dog run to her and she screamed at me because we where beside a road. I ignored the tantrum, and then told her to have a good weekend. She attempted to hug me again and I responded very half heartedly.
She gave me more crap about how I need "8 hugs a day, etc.."
Very hard to see her being all pleasant (like we should be all buddy buddy) and still clearly moving on with her life.
I'm not even sure I actually WANT her at this point, but this is still impossibly hard. I feel drained from all the convos with her today.
I think I'm doing the right things (acting "as if", being pleasant and upbeat, ...) but I'm still clearly pretty emotionally enmeshed in this. Now that I'm starting to realize this wasn't ALL my fault, I have a lot of anger toward her that I find it hard to keep to myself.
Hey reframe, I feel for you and Am in the same place. My WW is planning on moving out at the end of the month. I struggle to be up beat too, especially when interacting so much due to the kids but now realize her (and other WW) actions are part of who she is and inner demons coming out that she has not dealt with correctly over her life (Prior to the A and BD, I take 50 percent of the responsibility but everything after is all on her/them). I heard a marriage coach say today that even if we knew our wives were going to do such a thing, there is little to nothing we can do to stop them (which loops back to we can't control them). We don't want to be with women who treat us like this and deserve better. Maybe they'll figure that out, maybe they won't...maybe we'll stick around and maybe we wont.
Thanks guys. The support has been a huge help.
I'm doing pretty well - except when we need to interact.
We talked this morning, and she was all happy, and made a point of telling me about all her travel plans for the coming summer - things she wasn't "able" to do when we were together.
I realize a big part of this is fake - but it's still painful to see her "apparently" doing so well and moving on with a life without me.
Anyway, I have another question for this group.
Over the last 10 years, I've gotten fond of her family, my in laws.
There are two new nieces and nephews on the way this summer.
I'd really like to message W's mother and say something like:
"Thinking of you guys. I'm really sorry I won't be able to come out and see the new babies this summer. Give my love to everyone".
However, I'm pretty sure this would look like "backhanded pursuit" or something to W. Is there any way around this. Any way of reaching out to the MIL without it being about the W?
My niece left her husband a year and a half ago for an OM she was pregnant by. This broke our family's hearts because we love her husband. He reached out a few times since all that happened, and each time she saw it as manipulative and trying to hurt her. We are sure that was not the case as we all had a good relationship with us and he just missed us.
My suggestion would be to let them reach out.
No. Don't do this. This is not the time. It will definitely be backhanded pursuit and she will see it as manipulative no matter how genuine your actions might be.
Just let it go for now. What I did with my in-laws (and I currently am and was always on excellent terms with them) is the following. Big caveat here is that I have 2 kids who are very much attached to them and they will always be family to my kids, regardless of whatever happens.
So, I said this to them, "This is a difficult time for all of us. Just out of respect and space, I won't be reaching out to you for anything. If there is anything you want to talk to me about, I am more than happy to connect with you. You are family to my kids and will always be and I will make sure that you have access to them and that your relationship with them is not harmed."
And I have left it in their court of what they wanted to do.
I have interacted with them when they have come to town, but I haven't reached out and they haven't either. I am not going to speculate why they haven't reached out to me, but that's whatever.
I make sure though that the kids can reach out to them if they wanted to, and that I give them a call for bdays and other important events so that the kids can wish them and talk to them. I want to facilitate their relationship, even though mine with them is very limited.
In your case, you don't have kids right with W? So, I don't see any reason for you to reach out.
Correct, no kids, just two dogs we're sharing care and custody of.
Just slightly missing the extended family, but the responses here are what I expected - no reason to reach out, at least certainly not until it's been awhile.
I might revisit this idea in a few months.
Right now I'm doing OK, except when I interact with her. Seeing her apparently happy (although perhaps trying to convince herself) and moving on with her life is still really painful.
She is also planning things that her health issues wouldn't have let her do when we were together, which does make me question some of them....
I wouldn't do that reframe... just let it be. I know it's hard but it is for the best.
Right now I'm doing OK, except when I interact with her. Seeing her apparently happy (although perhaps trying to convince herself) and moving on with her life is still really painful.
She is also planning things that her health issues wouldn't have let her do when we were together, which does make me question some of them....
Well, if she's moving on with her life, so should you. I doubt she is but is putting on a good show.
You just have to put all of these thoughts about her out of your mind. You will not find satisfactory answers to what you're thinking and you'll keep obsessing over it. Just let it go.
I know this is hard. Trust me - it's been almost 10 months since BD for me and W occupies way more mental space than I'd like her to. And I know it's because the pain of rejection and having your ego destroyed takes time to heal.
So, you won't be able to banish these thoughts on command, but they'll come more fleetingly. And to get there you have to GAL and figure out how to improve yourself. That's the only way through. Through the pain, not around it.
Don't feel bad about having these thoughts about her. they will subside, but it takes active work and not staying in the limbo and grieving zone. You have to pull yourself out of it.
So, a new question for you guys.
The W is continuing to temp check me pretty hard. She's going out of her way to be friendly and show how well she's doing. She also noticed (and commented on), that I seem to be doing well, and that I'm "mr.serious business" with her
She hasn't outright asked me to do anything in a week or so, but I'm pretty sure it's coming.
When it does, I'm not sure how to respond to this. The attitude I see here is "not while you are involved with OM".
That's fine but I feel like saying that sounds punitive, which my coach strongly discouraged.
On the other hand, saying something like "I'm not ready to be friendly yet" sounds, a little weak.
Just examine what you wrote. You are worried that you're going to sound punitive if you tell your wife that she can't eat cake and trample all over you while sleeping with another man?
Saying: "I appreciate the invite but I have no interest in spending time with you while you are involved with OM". That is taking charge and showing ball$$$$.
You are clearly stating our boundary. You will not entertain even one second with someone who is going to disrespect and walk all over you. No, you are worthy of respect and love and if she can't show that, then here's the door.
I know this is hard to do because you gotta grow a spine. But trust me, I was a nice guy. I know how this feels. But once I told my W what I needed to, I felt such a wave of empowerment and relief.
Say what you need to say being pleasant and upbeat and then just walk away. There is nothing to discuss. If she drags the convo to a R convo, just validate and then walk away.
reframe, I am running into a similar sitch. My WW is letting the OM coach and manipulate how she is dealing with me and the settlement of our D. Want to be strong but not too, but also don't want to come off as weak. Been there too long.
How did your coach suggest you handle those sitch? I could not afford to keep using a coach so I am doing this on my own. It is so hard, especially when you are dealing with NGS also.
Detachment. Validation. See Cadet's links.
My coach always seems to suggest a slightly softer approach. His point is that anything giving the appearance of being punitive will engender resentment and defensiveness on the part of the other person, and "he's never seen that work".
He'd probably suggest something like:
"you know, I've never been here before. My #1 goal right now is to work on myself, and be the best version of myself I can be. I'm not quite ready to hang out, and I need to be true to myself and maintain my self respect".
reframe, I am running into a similar sitch. My WW is letting the OM coach and manipulate how she is dealing with me and the settlement of our D. Want to be strong but not too, but also don't want to come off as weak. Been there too long.
How did your coach suggest you handle those sitch? I could not afford to keep using a coach so I am doing this on my own. It is so hard, especially when you are dealing with NGS also.
"you know, I've never been here before. My #1 goal right now is to work on myself, and be the best version of myself I can be. I'm not quite ready to hang out, and I need to be true to myself and maintain my self respect"
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy too wordy!
if you don't want to go with my gung-ho approach, I'd do this:
"thanks for the invite, but I am unable to do that right now". and then leave it.
Get rid of everything about self-respect, working on myself blah blah blah... she doesn't give a $hit.
Be as succinct and pithy as possible with being assertive and pleasant. Don't go into explanations about what you're doing and what not. They don't care.
Maika -
thanks again. You provide excellent advice here.
The coaches tend to be a bit "softer" - I wasn't advocating this approach, just responding to "Along" who asked how my coach would suggest handling this.
He generally encourages a much softer approach. Up until a few weeks ago, I tended to agree with his approach to.
Now, I think being a little more assertive may be in order.
Being firm doesn't mean not being nice. I think Maika's point is that validation means to be succinct and stick to the point of validating. Don't offer up more info than you need to. The thing about needing to work on yourself etc is too much info. Plus Maika's example leaves a lot of mystery. She will wonder "Why can't he right now? Had he moved on to someone else? Why is he so busy? Why isn't he not jumping at the chance to be with me?" Etc.
The point of succinct validation and detachment (again, do this so super nicely that she will be coated in sugar afterward!) is to get her to want to know what is up. To be curious! She will then initiate contact much more. She will push for meeting up even harder. It will drive her crazy wondering why you aren't agreeing to get together and what you are up to!
Thanks guys!
Today the wife messaged me and mentioned that she was seriously considering buying a van and solo traveling for awhile.
She also posted on facebook looking for affordable liberal cities to possibly move to. (I unfollowed her there, a mutual friend told me about this)
I mentioned in our conversation that I thought she said that she didn't want to be a nomad any more (we had planned on traveling together) and she said
she wasn't sure what she wants, but she needs to do some soul searching and she can't do it here.
This struck me as a glimmer of self awareness on her part, of a realization that she needs to ACTUALLY work on herself. Perhaps a start of the journey toward her coming around.
A few hours later she posted that she had a therapist appointment, and she was dating a beautiful soul and was getting everything she needed.
It appears that it's still a roller coaster ride with her.
A "beautiful soul" that has no problem dating his married students. Not that I'm bitter or anything.
Honestly at this point - stop engaging with her. I know that you're not initiating this, but whatever she's telling you, just take it and let it dust off your shoulder.
She wants to travel, she wants to do therapy, she wants eat banana pudding for dinner - who gives a giant f#$%ing $hit. You give ZERO f#$%s about it.
She's dating a 'beautiful soul' - man, I just threw up a little in my mouth reading that. So much disrespect and having no qualms about how you're feeling.
None of this is a glimmer of self-awareness. Someone who is self-aware wouldn't be saying what she's saying. You have no idea why she's going into therapy - maybe she wants to get rid of her guilt. Who knows?
What do you do now? Give ZERO f*&$ks.
There are serious examples of LBS's here who just hung on to their partners and didn't go dark and found ways to keep in contact and engage and let the disrespect continue. They added MONTHS and MONTHS to their healing and recovery period. Don't do that.
What she said to you is a complete a$$hole move.
To clarify - she didn't saw the second bit to me.
I thought her realization that maybe she needed to be alone for a bit was a glimmer of self awareness.
It was something she posted (publicly) to instagram.
She routinely posts vomit inducing posts about how self actualized and wonderful her healing journey is there. That said, it's still her posting something publicly knowing that I can see it, and clearly having zero regard for my feelings. To be fair, she's demonstrated (many times) over the last few months that she has very little regard for anything besides what she wants.
I really wish I could just not engage with her man - I'm doing "OK" with all this except on the occasions when I have to interact with her, or when I see crap like this.
My coach always seems to suggest a slightly softer approach. His point is that anything giving the appearance of being punitive will engender resentment and defensiveness on the part of the other person, and "he's never seen that work".
He'd probably suggest something like:
"you know, I've never been here before. My #1 goal right now is to work on myself, and be the best version of myself I can be. I'm not quite ready to hang out, and I need to be true to myself and maintain my self respect".
Reframe- I assume you are talking about your DB coach? This forum belongs to Michele and is intended to help people in applying some of the details of DB'ing that may not be clear in her books. But her coaches are the experts. Even though some of us have been here a long time, we are not formally trained like her coaches are. Sometimes our advice deviates from what a coach may be telling you, and if so, then in my opinion the coach's advice trumps ours. Always go with your coach's advice because the coaches are trained in Michele's concepts and know the intent inside and out.
His point is that anything giving the appearance of being punitive will engender resentment and defensiveness on the part of the other person, and "he's never seen that work"
I absolutely agree with him, but that doesn't mean you need to go out with her whenever she asks either. You've just got to learn how to strike a balance- learn how to refuse without it sounding punitive.
"you know, I've never been here before. My #1 goal right now is to work on myself, and be the best version of myself I can be. I'm not quite ready to hang out, and I need to be true to myself and maintain my self respect".
I think the intent is there, but it's too wordy. It sounds scripted. Maybe just "Thank you for the offer but I'm just not ready for that." I think that makes it clear that you're not trying to punish her.
aaahhh man reframe.. you are in a tough spot. We've all been there.
I see Maika is fighting the good fight.... listen to him.
I'll be honest with you... she is not working on herself, she is not self aware of anything accept, of course, what her wayward mind wants. It's just bla bla bla words man. Whatever she has to tell herself to justify her actions is what you are hearing. She will not be ready to work on herself for a long, long time if ever. Heck, my wife didn't realize the mess she was in for a solid year. Even then it took another year for her to realize that she had to look inward. And you know what helped to get her to that point... me going dark! Don't care what she is doing.... and if that's not possible.. then act as if. Then one day you wake up and you actually don't care (go watch swingers). It's the fog man... that's all it is. The sooner you realize this and accept the better off you will be.
What was your response when she said she was going to buy a van and travel solo?? I would have ignored that for sure. And that's not being mean or being vindictive. SHE was the one being mean by telling you that.
Tell your friend to stop giving you details about what she is posting. If you want to know, you will ask. I had that convo with anyone who mentioned what my WW was doing on social media... and you know what... I never heard details of it again.
Keep on keeping on
Reframe, block her on IG too. My WW is an IG fiend, i had to cut ties there as well as all other social media. My wife hasnt posted much as she is still hiding from the public blowback of her affair being aired to the world, but OM posts often enough of the two of them together.
Ive followed your story and its very similar to mine.
Check it out if you want. -
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2784300#Post2784300the less exposure you have to her flagrant BS that she posts the better off you'll be. Knowing you blocked her on all fronts and only respond to her when you need to will get her to take pause, and if it doesnt eventually. Eff it, you deserve better.
Strength to you brother.
aaahhh man reframe.. you are in a tough spot. We've all been there.
I see Maika is fighting the good fight.... listen to him.
I'll be honest with you... she is not working on herself, she is not self aware of anything accept, of course, what her wayward mind wants. It's just bla bla bla words man. Whatever she has to tell herself to justify her actions is what you are hearing. She will not be ready to work on herself for a long, long time if ever. Heck, my wife didn't realize the mess she was in for a solid year. Even then it took another year for her to realize that she had to look inward. And you know what helped to get her to that point... me going dark! Don't care what she is doing.... and if that's not possible.. then act as if. Then one day you wake up and you actually don't care (go watch swingers). It's the fog man... that's all it is. The sooner you realize this and accept the better off you will be.
What was your response when she said she was going to buy a van and travel solo?? I would have ignored that for sure. And that's not being mean or being vindictive. SHE was the one being mean by telling you that.
Tell your friend to stop giving you details about what she is posting. If you want to know, you will ask. I had that convo with anyone who mentioned what my WW was doing on social media... and you know what... I never heard details of it again.
Keep on keeping on
I didn't say much. I just said "I thought you didn't want to live nomadically anymore" and she said "I don't know what I want. I just know I need to do some soul searching and I don't think I can do that here".
Then I just said "hmm, I see" and change the subject to animal stuff (i.e. shared responsibility).
Reframe, block her on IG too. My WW is an IG fiend, i had to cut ties there as well as all other social media. My wife hasnt posted much as she is still hiding from the public blowback of her affair being aired to the world, but OM posts often enough of the two of them together.
Ive followed your story and its very similar to mine.
Check it out if you want. -
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2784300#Post2784300the less exposure you have to her flagrant BS that she posts the better off you'll be. Knowing you blocked her on all fronts and only respond to her when you need to will get her to take pause, and if it doesnt eventually. Eff it, you deserve better.
Strength to you brother.
Thanks man. I'd seen bits and pieces of your thread before, but I'll go and read through all of it. I think I'll wait on the block for a day or so though - I don't want it to appear to be an emotional reaction to this latest post.
Hey! Yes, get rid of her from social media.. all platforms. you will be protecting your mental and emotional health.
Like AS said, the DB coaches are very skilled and will give you good advice for sure. I have been happy with my coaching sessions. I re-read what your coach had said you should say, and it does ring true - I Would just say it in lesser words and take out stuff about you are working on self-respect and all of that. Actions will speak louder than words.
If you achieve the balance between being firm/assertive and pleasant, then what you have to say isn't punitive.
Anyways, just figure out how you want to say something and do it once and then let it go. Don't keep repeating it. She's heard you.
Keep your chin up.
Hey guys, a minor victory today, that was still surprisingly hard.
This morning I unfollowed her on instagram.
She messaged me today and asked if I wanted to climb sometime.
I responded "Hey! thanks for the invite. Not right now."
I got a response of "OK..."
I didn't respond, or offer any more information.
On one hand this feels really good, like I'm slowly getting my spine back and not accepting the crumbs she's throwing at me.
On the other hand, letting go of the PERCEIVED opportunity to spend time/connect/etc is still really hard.
I know this is the right way to handle this, and that I can't "nice" her back. But...
Dude, good on ya.
I think it would be an Olympian task right now for me to turn down ANY time with my WW, despite knowing it would be the best thing to do.
KEEP IT UP!
Good one man! You will slowly shed the NGS with small steps like that. I know it's incredibly hard, as a recovering NGS I can attest.
But, you are showing strength and grace. You are also respecting and loving yourself, even if it doesn't feel this way right now. But, you will feel it soon.
Keep it up!
Yes, I know the fear that I'll ruin my chances to reconcile by developing a spine isn't realistic, but it's soo deeply ingrained.
Even though I know I did the right thing, part of my feels like I'm blowing an opportunity to establish a connection.
Yeah. i totally feel you. i know what you mean, precisely. we can understand something intellectually, but our emotions can take some time to catch up to what we know intellectually.
Don't worry, your emotions will sync in with what you believe is the right thing to do.
I started climbing as my GAL activity and also because I've been wanting to do it for a long time. you have a lot of history climbing with W, and that can be triggering.
So, let's get to a new GAL activity for you that has no association with W. Is there something you've been meaning to try for a while? Let's start there.
Yes, I know the fear that I'll ruin my chances to reconcile by developing a spine isn't realistic, but it's soo deeply ingrained.
Even though I know I did the right thing, part of my feels like I'm blowing an opportunity to establish a connection.
Naw.. that was the right move.... nice one! That was a good response.
I might have gone with the same thing except say "I have plans" or "I can't today" instead of 'not right now'... make it a little mysterious and you are busy GAL'ing anyway right?? ;-)
Nice though
IT just keeps getting better.
She seems to keep finding reasons to contact me.
I got a message a few minutes ago about how she would "like to work out a schedule for the dogs, because she misses the one (that she can't leave alone at the room she is renting).
Me: "OK, I like having him all the time, but we can work something out, what do you have in mind?"
W: Right now he can't but he's still half my dog. I feel like you've just taken ownership of them and I'm the weekend dad. I'm not okay with that
(so she moved out where she couldn't take the dogs, basically abandoned one of them, then she blames me for "taking ownership of them...awesome". I decided not to engage the BS and stick to business)
Me:
OK, What do you have in mind?
W: Either switching weeks or weekends with certain days during the week? I'm open to ideas.
I mean if you want dog 2 all the time, I'll take dog 1 all the time and we can each have a day or two with both each week
Me:
I'm open to ideas too.
just wasn't sure how stitch would work with your living arrangements
(we're negotiating now - I'm just in disbelieve that she basically abandoned the dogs and is now getting upset with me for having them)
Yes, the pursuit and distancer dynamic. She is suddenly now open to other ideas and wants to engage with you.
I think you handled it pretty well. The only thing I would add is that if you have a specific idea of how you want to do the schedule, say it upfront.
Don't engage in R stuff unless she does and then validate. You're on your path now.
IT just keeps getting better.
She seems to keep finding reasons to contact me.
I got a message a few minutes ago about how she would "like to work out a schedule for the dogs, because she misses the one (that she can't leave alone at the room she is renting).
Me: "OK, I like having him all the time, but we can work something out, what do you have in mind?"
W: Right now he can't but he's still half my dog. I feel like you've just taken ownership of them and I'm the weekend dad. I'm not okay with that
(so she moved out where she couldn't take the dogs, basically abandoned one of them, then she blames me for "taking ownership of them...awesome". I decided not to engage the BS and stick to business)
Me:
OK, What do you have in mind?
W: Either switching weeks or weekends with certain days during the week? I'm open to ideas.
I mean if you want dog 2 all the time, I'll take dog 1 all the time and we can each have a day or two with both each week
Me:
I'm open to ideas too.
just wasn't sure how stitch would work with your living arrangements
(we're negotiating now - I'm just in disbelieve that she basically abandoned the dogs and is now getting upset with me for having them)
She abandons the dog, and then wants to claim ownership?!? ROFL This girl is really deep into her fantasy fog. Were you tempted to text her back "Kick rocks." To the suggestion she keep Dog 1 full time? Also, is that even fair to dog 2? I know my dogs are buddies.
Yes - I'd like to post the rest of the convo here. But it contains a little too much personally identifiable information and it's long.
She was definitely trying to provoke me though. I managed to avoid taking any emotional bait, and defuse the confrontation. Although I did call her on her BS once - got it back to the business at hand and worked out a schedule that seems reasonable.
She also found reason to send me a chat message a few hours later. (that's 4 or 5 times she contacted me yesterday).
I'll be honest, the pursuit from her feels kind of good - but it's a long way from her doing the work that would be required to have any real hope at recon. I have trouble imagining what it would take to reconnect and TRUST that this wouldn't happen again in a year at this point - given how immature she's acted. But, I hear it does happen sometimes.
I may not be over her yet (by a long shot if I'm honest) but I'm starting to feel like I AM over dealing with her crap.
She abandons the dog, and then wants to claim ownership?!? ROFL This girl is really deep into her fantasy fog. Were you tempted to text her back "Kick rocks." To the suggestion she keep Dog 1 full time? Also, is that even fair to dog 2? I know my dogs are buddies.
I was VERY tempted. But I resisted the urge to take the bait. I did say:
"You moved to a situation where you couldn't take them, and now you're getting upset with me for having them.
I am happy to work out a schedule where you take them more.
I was also a bit concerned about <dog2> being left along, but we can figure something out"
That's as confrontational as I got.
I'm honestly not sure she's equipped to handle them right now, but that's a natural consequence.
We worked out something where we each have BOTH dogs two days a week, then we each have the other the rest of the time.
So the dogs will only be apparent 2 days a week, and we'll only each be without a dog 2 days a week. Seems like a reasonable place to start...
I may not be over her yet (by a long shot if I'm honest) but I'm starting to feel like I AM over dealing with her crap.
I loved loved reading that. A great place to get to and now it can only go up from here.
You're right about trust - long long way to go if she ever came back and genuinely showed remorse and wanted to put the work in to rebuild the MR.
For now, enjoy the empowerment. It's addictive and as you shed your NGS skin, your confidence will ooze out and other ladies will come knocking. Trust me, you will start getting noticed and use that to add to your self-respect and being assertive.
What's your GAL? climbing doesn't count.
Climbing is my passion man. I've seriously considered becoming a guide, but the comfort of a professional job is too good to give up at the moment.
I climbed before I meet the W, and I'm focusing on it again after. I know there's some baggage there since I climbed with her, but my connection to the activity is bigger than that.
Ok - can't argue with that. Hopefully you can get through any triggering stuff that might remind you of W when you go climbing. I just started and I totally understand it being your passion. I wish I had started a decade earlier.
But, aside from climbing, is there something else you can do for GAL as well? Is there something you've been wanting to try for a while or something you think might be fun or interesting.
Reframe,
Getting back into climbing has been a GAL goal for me as well.
I am in New England, and like to Climb at Rumney Rocks. Ever Been?
Im currently like at 5.8 Ouside Sport on Lead, if im lucky. Man am i off my game.
Cant wait to get out and clip some gear!!!
OrangeK -
I used to live in the North East, but I never made it up to New England for rock (I did ice climb up there a good bit).
It looks like the climbing there is fantastic though. Get out there and get after it!
YASSSS!
Edit - Start a new thread