Feeling extremely lost and really need the advice of some of you intelligent, well journeyed people here.
I have lurked around and found a lot of great stuff.
Quick (okay probably not that quick) background: My wife and I have only been married for a little over a year and a half. We are in our mid-20s. Lived together for about 9 months before getting married.
She is in the military and we are currently living overseas.
I will be honest and say that us getting married was probably influenced by military logistics, but certainly not the sole reason; maybe just sooner than we would have, no way to know now. Anyway, we are great friends and neither of us has had any kind of affair or anything like that. But, even before we were married, my wife would express feelings of unsureness saying things like she doubted our connection or didn't know if she was happy.
Vague things that were obviously concerning but I didn't really know what to do with them. She wasn't breaking up with me, but sometimes it almost seemed like she was trying to see if she could get me to do it.
About a year ago, shortly after we moved overseas, she acted very distant one day and finally went into a monologue about how she was sorry but she didn't think she had feelings for me anymore and she didn't want to hurt me but she felt done with the relationship. A few months removed from quitting my job and relocating everything I owned halfway around the world, I was a little rocked.
Again, I knew there were flags or concerns but I thought she had sorted them out before making these huge decisions!
So began my journey of trying to save my marriage.
At first, very briefly, I did all those taboo things like begging and chasing, but as I usually go to research first to solve any problem I face, I quickly learned the errors of my ways and studied everything I could to know the best way to respond. I reflected on my flaws and what could make me better for myself and for her. I gave/still give her space and tried to loosen my grip and my tendency for borderline manipulation if something isn't going the way I like. I also recognize I am the cliche "poor listener" because I am rational and always jumping in with answers rather than emotional validation.
I did my best to learn and fix, and I actually think I have made a lot progress.
Since that day, up until yesterday, we have not had any major discussions about our relationship being doomed, which was probably the longest we've gone without a big "bump". We both are better people, our communication has improved a LOT, we've taken several trips together, and overall enjoyed each other more than ever. Or so I thought.
A week ago, we were making decisions about where we wanted to try to live next and what our future plans looked like. We were excited and looking forward to working on our goals and dreams. Then, overnight (literally), she completely shut down and distanced herself, similar to a year ago.
I thought, o no, and stepped up to make sure I was doing all the little things and doing my part flawlessly during this apparently stressful time (she is definitely the 'do the dishes is my love language' type so this is what I mean I ramped up on, I gave her a lot of space and tried not to panic).
I encouraged her to take a weekend trip she wanted to go on to see some friends that had recently left our area and have fun with them and she was excited to go.
In the past year, I have really worked on dialing down my need to "control" and to allow for her big need for space.
Nonetheless, she came back from the trip and after asking if there was anything I could do for her since she was clearly still in a bad place, she told me again yesterday that she had really tried but our connection just isn't there and she doesn't want to be in the relationship anymore. She said we both deserve happiness and it just doesn't seem in the cards for us. She said she feels suffocated (always her words and I have tried and tried to back off more and more, I don't know what else to do without feeling like I'm giving up). By her own admission, she has a tendency to do things for the wrong reasons, because she thinks they will make other people happy.
She does this with me, her family, even friends. She is selfless to a fault, because it then breeds resentment and sometimes I feel she neglects her own needs so much she doesn't even know what they are. I have told her repeatedly don't do things you don't want to do just because you think it's what I want.
I really feel like this is a final blow. How do you know when it is time to throw in the towel? I am committed to my marriage and my wife, and I know that she HAS really tried, but we just aren't there yet and maybe never will be?
I am never one to give up, but we are still young with lots of life ahead and with so many doubts, is there a time when it is just better to abort the mission and accept it is doomed?
I am devastated and hope this isnt the answer but I feel so alone and hopeless and honestly sort of a fool like why didn't I just leave at the first red flags. I know she feels tremendous guilt because if we split up and I have to move back home somehow, all my plans for career (I am currently in a masters program) have to be changed to get a job quickly and support myself and we would have to figure out how to pay for my stuff to be moved including my car etc. A huge mess that honestly works against me because I think it makes her feel even more trapped and resentful.
She insists she is miserable and says she feels like she is living with a friend and we both deserve more. Our sex life is non-existent but she will still climb into bed and put her arms around me and things like that.
I thought there was enough to build on. For Christmas she gave me one of those star maps from the day we got married with a heartfelt inscription. She says she wanted to be good to me and not hurt me and that's why does those things (I always thought this made no sense and after reading here, maybe this is one of those don't believe what they say things because they are just making the narrative as negative as possible to give no hope?).
What is my next move, IS there any hope?
It feels like she made her final decision.
I don't want to be in a marriage where I'm not wanted, that has been very hurtful for me knowing her doubts and like I said sometimes I wonder if I'm not a huge fool. I am an intelligent, capable, attractive person, and I know that she respects me as a person. It's just the classic connection problem. My mom just recently divorced my father after 30 years of a loveless marriage claiming the exact same problem. I do not want to live that life or repeat his mistakes and yet here I am.
Do I keep trying?
It is completely demoralizing and it is not for lack of effort or willingness. I will do anything if it will help. Part of my problem is that I don't really know what to expect from marriage or have a good gauge for what is "normal" and what is some fatal flaw. But it sure seems like our issues are pretty typical.
I just don't really understand how a week ago everything was fine (obviously they weren't really), and suddenly she claims she has been miserable the whole time. Last weekend she got jealous enough of a stranger giving me a hug that she commented on it.
Even during her "shut down" week, I came to see her win an award and she put her hand on my knee when I arrived.
I just feel like I can't believe she has no feelings at all and that's what makes me not want to give up.
But I don't want to over-analyze to the point of delusion.
Last time, I implemented all the rules of giving space and not putting any pressure and I thought it worked. But rather than having an explicit talk about how we were going to "try again" it just sort of happened and of course I didn't complain.
I was probably too quick to fall back into routine once I thought I was in the safe zone.
When the rule says you don't talk about the relationship, when is it okay to do so?
Because this time, if by some miracle I get the chance, I don't want to repeat the cycle and constantly wonder what the heck actually happened or how she really feels or why she is mentioning me as part of her long term plans again. Eventually I hope I can have a marriage that I am sure of.
Also, so many people here seem to have EAs and PAs as part of their story, which I'm so thankful that's not part of mine, but in some ways it almost feels worse because apparently even being alone is better than being with me. Does the fact there is no A increase or decrease my chances?
Any advice or sharing is greatly appreciated and thanks for reading, sorry it was so long.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Thank you, Cadet. This might not be the best place to ask this, but I have searched everywhere. it says I have a new message but then when i click it it says "private messages are disabled". My preferences say they are allowed, how do I enable them?
Thank you, Cadet.
This might not be the best place to ask this, but I have searched everywhere. it says I have a new message but then when i click it it says "private messages are disabled".
My preferences say they are allowed, how do I enable them?
Private messages are not allowed on this forum.
The one you received is an automated message sent by the software.
It says the following
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Oh, you're right! This IS similar!
Here's my suggestion. First, drag this out until you are done with your master's program. Sorry. There, I said it. It may feel wrong, but you made the choices you made because your W let you believe that you were a family unit and that you could rely on her while you tried to better yourself and your lives together. Now she is ripping the carpet from under you. I am not saying that you should not take steps to secure your independence because you absolutely should. However, you should also remember that divorce takes time. Even if you are not in a place where you can have a reasonable talk with her about your timelines (and it CAN be dangerous to have that talk), it is on her to file and until the divorce is final, you are under no obligation to move out.
I know she feels tremendous guilt because if we split up and I have to move back home somehow, all my plans for career (I am currently in a masters program) have to be changed to get a job quickly and support myself and we would have to figure out how to pay for my stuff to be moved including my car etc. A huge mess that honestly works against me because I think it makes her feel even more trapped and resentful.
So what are you doing about all of this? Have you looked into your options?
What is my next move, IS there any hope?
You seem very focused on her. What are you doing for you? GAL? Also, have you read DR - I couldnt really tell from your post.
Last time, I implemented all the rules of giving space and not putting any pressure and I thought it worked. But rather than having an explicit talk about how we were going to "try again" it just sort of happened and of course I didn't complain.
I was probably too quick to fall back into routine once I thought I was in the safe zone.
You say 'last time' like the crisis ended. I dont think it ever has. You say you 'fell back into a routine'. Does that mean your original changes werent genuine? How are you different today than you were at the start?
When the rule says you don't talk about the relationship, when is it okay to do so?
I say when she brings it up.
Does the fact there is no A increase or decrease my chances?
Yes
Any advice or sharing is greatly appreciated and thanks for reading, sorry it was so long.
Keep posting!
I definitely agree with you. I have no intention of moving out/home or taking any further steps toward D. I have respected her request for separation, we are taking turns sleeping in our normal bed and the guest room (her idea, not mine but whatever). I really try not to harbor any anger toward her for transplanting my life and doing everything I can as the supporting stay at home spouse and now she backs out. For her part, she has said she isn't "kicking me out on the street". In fact, she hasn't given any further details on how exactly the relationship is supposed to end besides not wanting to share a bed because it doesn't seem "appropriate". I take this as a win I guess because without a real plan, how is it going to happen? You are right, this is on her to figure out and I don't intend to help or even ask about it. I will wait until she initiates.
In the meantime, I am putting my head down with my studies and trying to prepare myself better if I were to have to get back to work sooner than planned. Also following the rules of keeping my distance, not texting her at work or really initiating conversation even at home. It is very lonely for me unfortunately because I am here in a foreign country where they don't speak English, any few friends I have here are mutual ones from her work, and obviously home is far away. Even though it's only been a few days, I miss her company deeply and it is heart wrenching to sit alone in my office after she comes home from work and all I want to do is talk to her.
I have respected her request for separation, we are taking turns sleeping in our normal bed and the guest room (her idea, not mine but whatever).
I dont understand why you are taking turns. If it were me, Id tell her that she is free to sleep wherever she wants. If she wants a separation, why are you making yourself uncomfortable for it?
It is very lonely for me unfortunately because I am here in a foreign country where they don't speak English, any few friends I have here are mutual ones from her work, and obviously home is far away. Even though it's only been a few days, I miss her company deeply and it is heart wrenching to sit alone in my office after she comes home from work and all I want to do is talk to her.
So as I asked in my last post....what are you doing for GAL?
As I replied to Olya, I am going to let her be the one to figure out how we will move everything and when. Do you think this is a mistake? But I certainly am not in a rush to push for it and I sort of view the fact that she didn't come in and say here are some boxes, get packing, as a win. We have about ten months left at this location, don't know where we (I guess she) is going next, but if I am not on her orders maybe the military will ship my stuff/car home. I don't know how all this works and partly why it is up to her to find out. I am hoping that continuing living together and having this time if we get that far is a positive.
You are right, probably too focused on her. But, for myself I am buckling down on studies and job preparation, going to start doing things on my own like mountain biking and being stricter about going to the gym etc. The problem is that I am pretty isolated here and don't have the luxury of going out with my friends or a lot of the community resources I would normally have. Guess it's time to make some new local friends at the dog park and try to improve my language skills to communicate (something I have been doing anyway).
Right again, I don't think the crisis ended. I did at one point, or rather just ignored it because I thought the storm had passed. Big mistake I won't make again. If she decides to not be completely done, we will have to do a lot of intentional work on rebuilding our connection and trying to reignite the feelings that are missing. As for the changes I made, they were genuine and I truly believe I am permanently changed in the ways I tried to and that any future relationship with her or someone else will benefit. I focused mostly on 1. giving her more space and not being overbearing as she has mentioned feeling suffocated often. Obviously I will continue to work on it as she said it again this week but she has said it way less often and I know my behavior is far less suffocating than it used to be. 2. I no longer try to control and have my way or talk and talk trying to convince her of my views. Before, I was easily threatened or felt anxious and could become manipulative without even realizing it. I reflected a lot on this and am much more calm and accepting, going with the flow (ironic because I'm actually pretty easy going in general, just not as much in he relationship), and valuing her opinions and wants a lot more. Allowing her to drive, so to speak. Those things I have improved and not regressed. Unfortunately, the things that I will focus on this time around (if I get the chance, or for future relationships) are probably more important, especially for the connection issue. I need to be much more aware of building her up, making her feel good about herself, that sort of thing. She is the type that would never ever ask for compliments and acts like she doesn't care or need anything like that, but I have learned over time it is all a facade. She is actually very needy (not in a bad way, lack of a better word) in this way. I am relatively insensitive and don't need much in the way of an ego-boost so it is not always first nature to make sure I mention positive things and actively try to make someone feel good. I think this has been very hurtful for her and I deeply regret not realizing it sooner. Secondly, I can be selfish in the small things and she notices. I am good at grand gestures and giving gifts, but when it comes to true selflessness, I have realized I am very poor in this area. If I open a cookie package and no one's looking I would probably take the best one for myself. I do not want to be this way anymore especially with my wife. It hurts so much to think that I may not have truly put her first and made her feel she is my top priority in the little ways (heck, there probably was a time when I thought she was my highest priority but she really wasn't because I was immature and dumb and didn't know how to be in a real adult relationship). These are ways I have grown as a person and will continue to strive to grow.
As for talking about the relationship, I agree, but what if she doesn't bring it up? Last time, she just sort of slid back into it without explicitly saying she was ready to try again. I guess I should have stopped and said hey what's going on, but I was afraid to rock the boat.
I will definitely keep posting, feels good to get it all "on paper" and not sit wallowing. Thanks again to anyone who doesn't even know me and takes the time to read.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Hmm maybe you are right, should I just have let her move to guest room? She offered but I said why not rotate. Ugh, I can see now how that is probably holding too tight. Fact is, I'm more comfortable with not having her move to a separate room permanently, the physical bed comfort isn't a big deal. But I can see now how this is my anxiety talking and needs to be eliminated.
O as for reading DR, I have ordered it and am chomping at the bit. I want to start implementing it now but will probably be a bit before it gets to me across the globe. I will just use what I can find here until then.
As I replied to Olya, I am going to let her be the one to figure out how we will move everything and when. Do you think this is a mistake? But I certainly am not in a rush to push for it and I sort of view the fact that she didn't come in and say here are some boxes, get packing, as a win. We have about ten months left at this location, don't know where we (I guess she) is going next, but if I am not on her orders maybe the military will ship my stuff/car home. I don't know how all this works and partly why it is up to her to find out. I am hoping that continuing living together and having this time if we get that far is a positive.
I didnt say to start packing. I said to figure out what you want on your end. You talk about the mess of logistics holding her to you. How is that a good thing? You even say it is only building resentment. If it were me, I would figure out what YOU would want to do if she decides to proceed. I dont think that would be up to her anyway.
The problem is that I am pretty isolated here and don't have the luxury of going out with my friends or a lot of the community resources I would normally have. Guess it's time to make some new local friends at the dog park and try to improve my language skills to communicate (something I have been doing anyway).
You talk about missing her companionship. That isnt going to change if you just sit around. Also, we tend to value what other people value. The goals in GAL are to prove to yourself your own worth - this will help show to her that you are worthy of value and something she may not want to just toss away. So, YES, start brushing up on those community resources.
Right again, I don't think the crisis ended. I did at one point, or rather just ignored it because I thought the storm had passed. Big mistake I won't make again. If she decides to not be completely done, we will have to do a lot of intentional work on rebuilding our connection and trying to reignite the feelings that are missing. As for the changes I made, they were genuine and I truly believe I am permanently changed in the ways I tried to and that any future relationship with her or someone else will benefit. I focused mostly on 1. giving her more space and not being overbearing as she has mentioned feeling suffocated often. Obviously I will continue to work on it as she said it again this week but she has said it way less often and I know my behavior is far less suffocating than it used to be. 2. I no longer try to control and have my way or talk and talk trying to convince her of my views. Before, I was easily threatened or felt anxious and could become manipulative without even realizing it. I reflected a lot on this and am much more calm and accepting, going with the flow (ironic because I'm actually pretty easy going in general, just not as much in he relationship), and valuing her opinions and wants a lot more. Allowing her to drive, so to speak. Those things I have improved and not regressed. Unfortunately, the things that I will focus on this time around (if I get the chance, or for future relationships) are probably more important, especially for the connection issue. I need to be much more aware of building her up, making her feel good about herself, that sort of thing. She is the type that would never ever ask for compliments and acts like she doesn't care or need anything like that, but I have learned over time it is all a facade. She is actually very needy (not in a bad way, lack of a better word) in this way. I am relatively insensitive and don't need much in the way of an ego-boost so it is not always first nature to make sure I mention positive things and actively try to make someone feel good. I think this has been very hurtful for her and I deeply regret not realizing it sooner. Secondly, I can be selfish in the small things and she notices. I am good at grand gestures and giving gifts, but when it comes to true selflessness, I have realized I am very poor in this area. If I open a cookie package and no one's looking I would probably take the best one for myself. I do not want to be this way anymore especially with my wife. It hurts so much to think that I may not have truly put her first and made her feel she is my top priority in the little ways (heck, there probably was a time when I thought she was my highest priority but she really wasn't because I was immature and dumb and didn't know how to be in a real adult relationship). These are ways I have grown as a person and will continue to strive to grow.
This all feels very framed around her. So to me, it's hard for these to be genuine and lasting.
How can you frame these so that they are about you?
For example, you talk about how you need to be better at "building her up". But really it's about recognizing achievement or providing encouragement. It isnt about how you interact with HER, specifically, but rather, what values you hold to be important to you. Thinking this way, what changes have you made? How are they keeping? What more do you want to do?
As for talking about the relationship, I agree, but what if she doesn't bring it up? Last time, she just sort of slid back into it without explicitly saying she was ready to try again. I guess I should have stopped and said hey what's going on, but I was afraid to rock the boat.
Well, what are YOUR boundaries? Why did you allow her to just 'slide back in'? Why is she the only one that gets a say in the relationship? But no...I wouldnt bring it up until you see something change in the status quo.
I'm with everyone else! Why in God's name are you alternating beds with her!? If she is not comfortable sleeping with you, then she needs to make her own arrangements, and that includes moving her clothes and dresser to another room, if she feels she must. By herself. You can love her and care for her without condoning or participating in her efforts to end your marriage. Do not throw yourself across the bedroom threshold to keep her from moving to the guest room permanently, but do give her the opportunity to learn what life alone will be like. This means that she will be leaving a place where she feels at home and she will be doing it all on her own. Your bedroom is like a small preview of that.
Now, you DO NOT say any of this to her. This is for you to keep in mind.
What you do tell her is that the other bed is hurting your back and that you are no longer willing to keep alternating. You want your bedroom back and you fully understand if she is not comfortable staying there with you.
I didnt say to start packing. I said to figure out what you want on your end. You talk about the mess of logistics holding her to you. How is that a good thing? You even say it is only building resentment. If it were me, I would figure out what YOU would want to do if she decides to proceed. I dont think that would be up to her anyway.
This is a good point and one that I will have to think over and make sure I separate what I want and what I need.
How can you frame these so that they are about you?
For example, you talk about how you need to be better at "building her up". But really it's about recognizing achievement or providing encouragement. It isnt about how you interact with HER, specifically, but rather, what values you hold to be important to you. Thinking this way, what changes have you made? How are they keeping? What more do you want to do?
This is really good insight and helps me see how much she is at the center of my thinking. I guess I figured those translations from specific to her to general would be a given, but I should be thinking about the general form from the get-go. If I make changes for her, they aren't real changes. But should I discount the motivation to be better for someone else? This is a hard balance for me. If I hadn't been in this relationship at all, I could have easily coasted on and not ever been pushed to think introspectively and improve myself at all. Obviously, this a problem and probably exaggerated but I definitely don't think I would have come as far. To your question (and I assume you are asking about reframing my changes I have made relating to the relationship as opposed to general changes in myself that are unrelated), I have learned to have better control over my own anxieties, not letting them cause me to make impulsive decisions. I think this is something that has translated into all areas of my life and has held up. It is really a matter of maturity and inner zen if you will and part of it has come with age. As for future changes, the selfish mindset is my biggest concern. I do not want to be that type of person and I want to be more caring and put others first.
Well, what are YOUR boundaries? Why did you allow her to just 'slide back in'? Why is she the only one that gets a say in the relationship? But no...I wouldnt bring it up until you see something change in the status quo.
So this is a major problem for me. If I'm being honest, and you probably already know this by now, I am way too accommodating. I consistently find myself wondering why on earth I am the one who has no real control in relationships, which probably has correlation with my struggle with being "controlling". I still haven't quite worked it out, but it is not something I enjoy and for once I'd like to be the one who can say and do what I want without worrying about the effects or what the other person thinks or will react etc (not in a reckless way). I find myself always being the first to apologize in a fight even when I am the one who was wronged in the first place. I just want the fight over! In fact, this is probably a root cause of an inability to have a truly healthy relationship because it is never balanced. I'm just not sure how to fix it yet.
Olya, thank you for reinforcing that it is ridiculous I should be accommodating her in the bed situation. She asked me tonight where I wanted to sleep and I said the bed, she said okay. She has never wanted to fight me on it, I just stupidly gave it to her for free. I won't give it up again.
So, now I am not sure if I screwed up or not. Tonight when she came home from work neither of us had eaten and we decided to go pick something up (very normal,
before). We ate dinner together and watched TV. Obviously, it was great to have the company, but should I be avoiding this?? I didn't push for it or anything of the sort. It was natural and we actually had a very pleasant time and laughed a lot. I don't know how to navigate spending time together vs keeping distant. I want her to feel the effects of missing me and not get to have her cake and eat it too. But obviously we can't have any hope of reconcile if we never have any contact. Should the first real contact not be until she wants to initiate a relationship talk? I don't have the book yet and the only thing I know for sure is the not reaching out or pressuring, and focusing on myself. From my research last year (before I knew about DB specifically) a lot of what I read and held on to was that I should be hoping for an internal struggle where she is unsure if she really wants to be done, and hopefully decides maybe there is hope for growth and change and it is worth giving it another shot. This probably depends on how deep her resolve is, which I have no way of knowing.
One last note, she has suddenly started smoking again which is something that has always been a very hot topic of contention. Originally, I told her that I did not want to get married until she quit. She agreed and this mostly happened, but she would still bum them sometimes often, sometimes infrequently depending who she hung around. She has never been a heavy smoker and goes through phases. Claimed she wanted to quit, I supported her, but somehow half the time we were arguing about it because she wouldn't fully commit and it became an issue of me controlling her. Now it seems like a clear act of independence/rebellion now that she is "free".
I really appreciate your posts and questions, Amoafwl, because they are really pushing me to think deeply and I'll admit some of them sort of stopped me in my tracks for a bit and I didn't immediately have answers. I like this push out of my comfort zone.
I've been honing in on one of many of issues, and I haven't been able to shake the feeling that this one cannot be ignored. You asked what are my boundaries, which I touched on in the last post, but after thinking about it more, I'm not sure that I really even have boundaries. This is rather embarrassing to admit, both to myself and now to a world of strangers. I have become so accustomed to ignoring the need to establish boundaries for myself because I subconsciously think it will be better for establishing connection, closeness, etc. Perhaps contributing to preventing this very thing. I am paralyzed to really set a line for myself and I need to get over this hump.
Another Update: I am still sort of flying by the seat of my pants here, trying to follow the rules, eliminate anxiety, and stay focused on myself over her.
Today, she texted me while she is at work and asked me "So have you had anymore thoughts about everything? You said you took a reflection day the other day." I was a little caught off guard by this and admittedly panicked a little.
Did my best to stay calm and be honest while not saying the "wrong thing". At first my answer was fairly brief because I tend be an over-sharer and I figured as long as it wasn't cold or TOO short, it was better than "Uh yes, I'm devastated and am begging you to reconsider etc". She pressed further saying she is just wondering my thoughts and if I could elaborate. Darn, no easy way out. Part of me wondered if this could be an opportunity but alas if it was I didn't know exactly how to seize it.
So, I went with this: "I will try to let you in a bit more. It matters to me deeply how unhappy you have been and I'm glad you decided to say something, even if it isn't easy to hear. I wish we had tried more active things like creating space and sleeping separately before it built up to an explosion (note: this was her word choice when she gave me "the talk"), but I'm glad we're doing it now even if it doesn't change anything. As for me personally, obviously the future is much less clear but I am at peace with that and working to prepare myself both logistically and mentally/emotionally."
How badly did I screw up?! What SHOULD I have said?
Her response: "I want to say how sorry I am for all of it."
Me: "I know that you have no bad intentions and you haven't been unfaithful or anything other than a supportive wife and I appreciate that."
She hasn't responded since.
I didnt say to start packing. I said to figure out what you want on your end. You talk about the mess of logistics holding her to you. How is that a good thing? You even say it is only building resentment. If it were me, I would figure out what YOU would want to do if she decides to proceed. I dont think that would be up to her anyway.
This is a good point and one that I will have to think over and make sure I separate what I want and what I need.
You initially said this:
all my plans for career (I am currently in a masters program) have to be changed to get a job quickly and support myself and we would have to figure out how to pay for my stuff to be moved including my car etcTo me, this is something you need to figure out. Not her. She isnt responsible for your choices for your masters program and job and so on if you do wind up splitting. As Cadet says,
Knowledge is Power. Sometimes just knowing what your options are can help you to not be so paralyzed. Taking ownership of your self can be a powerful step to help you break free of your fears of the 'what-ifs'.
As for future changes, the selfish mindset is my biggest concern. I do not want to be that type of person and I want to be more caring and put others first.
One of the biggest takeaways that I got from DR was how important it is to recognize these areas of growth and then to also lay out a plan for actually achieving them. So what quantifiable actions can you take to progress towards this goal? How will you exhibit these traits?
So this is a major problem for me. If I'm being honest, and you probably already know this by now, I am way too accommodating. I consistently find myself wondering why on earth I am the one who has no real control in relationships, which probably has correlation with my struggle with being "controlling". I still haven't quite worked it out, but it is not something I enjoy and for once I'd like to be the one who can say and do what I want without worrying about the effects or what the other person thinks or will react etc (not in a reckless way). I find myself always being the first to apologize in a fight even when I am the one who was wronged in the first place. I just want the fight over! In fact, this is probably a root cause of an inability to have a truly healthy relationship because it is never balanced. I'm just not sure how to fix it yet.
I think youre on the right path. I get being committed to this relationship even in the face of the actions and words from your W. There is no shame in that. My concern is that if you let her get everything she wants for forever, then she has no reason to change the status quo. The bed is kind of a microcosm - here you are, devoted to your marriage 100%, but she wants to separatae and so you move to the guest room sometimes to....help her feel better? Im not sure exactly.
Im not saying that you should be a jerk to her or punish for her thoughts. And Im not saying you should go run out and look for other women or anything like that. Im saying that it isnt your job to cater to her every whim right now. She fired you from that job. You talk about being unselfish, but really, I kinda think now is the time where you SHOULD be a little bit selfish. She is giving you the gift of time to go out and become the person you want to become. Take advantage of it!
My other point above was that you act and come across like you are committed to the marriage 100%. I commend you for that. It's OK to give off that persona here. But think about what that says to W that you are OK with her doing whatever it is she wants and youll always be there as a safety net. How does that attitude lead to her valuing you or your relationship? Now is a good time to understand what qualities you value in a relationship and what you want out of a partner. What is your recourse if she cant meet those expectations?
She asked me tonight where I wanted to sleep and I said the bed, she said okay. She has never wanted to fight me on it, I just stupidly gave it to her for free. I won't give it up again.
You dont need to lie and say the other place is uncomfortable or anything like that. You dont really need to give an explanation. She is free to sleep where she wants.
So, now I am not sure if I screwed up or not. Tonight when she came home from work neither of us had eaten and we decided to go pick something up (very normal, before). We ate dinner together and watched TV. Obviously, it was great to have the company, but should I be avoiding this??
Its not a big deal if she initiates it. But I would say that if you are home every night when she comes in waiting to see if she wants to do something with you....thats not good. GAL is so so so so so so important. I dont think anyone here can stress that enough to you. You need to start making your own plans - even if it's just to go to the coffee house down the street for a few hours to read or people watch. Get out of the house and start doing something. Anything. Go to a dance class, a game night, a language class, parasailing, scuba diving, doesnt really matter.
I didn't push for it or anything of the sort. It was natural and we actually had a very pleasant time and laughed a lot. I don't know how to navigate spending time together vs keeping distant. I want her to feel the effects of missing me and not get to have her cake and eat it too. But obviously we can't have any hope of reconcile if we never have any contact. Should the first real contact not be until she wants to initiate a relationship talk? I don't have the book yet and the only thing I know for sure is the not reaching out or pressuring, and focusing on myself. From my research last year (before I knew about DB specifically) a lot of what I read and held on to was that I should be hoping for an internal struggle where she is unsure if she really wants to be done, and hopefully decides maybe there is hope for growth and change and it is worth giving it another shot. This probably depends on how deep her resolve is, which I have no way of knowing.
This feels like a lot of overanalyzing and going around in circles. In my opinion, it's very hard to 'nice them back'. Its also impossible to talk your way out of a situation that your actions got you into. With that, if you focus on your own self improvement and GAL your heart out, thats the best path towards success.
Claimed she wanted to quit, I supported her, but somehow half the time we were arguing about it because she wouldn't fully commit and it became an issue of me controlling her. Now it seems like a clear act of independence/rebellion now that she is "free".
Who knows? It culd be that shes sad or scared or nervous or whatever else. I would say just note it for now.
As for your other comments above...can you see a difference between "Im not willing to be around a smoker" and "You need to stop smoking if you want to be in this relationship"? I feel like the first removes any need for an argument and is about your boundary while the second is controlling to her. Think about that distinction as you move forward in this process.
How badly did I screw up?! What SHOULD I have said?
A couple things Id recommend.
1) None of these things are urgent. If you need a few minutes or hours to think about your response, it's OK. If you need to post here first, then do it.
2) I would try to give 70% or so of what she says. Going on for paragraphs isnt particularly meaningful. Talking about your regrets or path forward with HER isnt particularly useful. Here's a phrase that my DB coach gave me that I think is wonderfully succinct and gets across everything you wanted to say very efficiently.
I do not believe that divorce (or separation) is the answer to our problems, but I love and respect you enough to move forward if thats what you choose.[Its been a couple years, so I may have a couple of the words wrong :)]
But I think that should be your focus. Listen to HER. Dont talk at her.
I don't know how to navigate spending time together vs keeping distant.
So, this is actually pretty easy. Let's use your living room couch as an example.
Scenario 1: Wife comes in. You're on the couch watching TV/Playing video games.
Do NOT get up and leave. Five-year-olds do that.
Do NOT invite her to spend time with you.
Do NOT attempt small talk.
Do say "hi" if this is the first time you see her since she came home, but do NOT ask her about her day.
Do NOT object to her sitting down in the same room with you.
Do NOT offer to change the TV to something else for her - you were there first. If she asks you to, say that you are almost done, finish what you are watching, give her the remote, and go do something else in another room. Do this with utmost serenity.
If she sits down, wherever that may be, do not make a big deal of it and do NOT EVER thank her for spending time with you or let her know that it means something to you. You are a person, not a puppy.
Scenario 2: Wife is on the couch watching TV. You come into the room. She does not acknowledge you or barely acknowledge you.
Follow all the conversation rules from Scenario 1 and proceed to another room to do something else. After all, you have a Master's degree to work on, right?
Scenario 3: Wife is on the couch watching TV. You come into the room. She offers/asks that you watch TV with her.
If this is the program you both like to watch, say something like "sure" and sit down to watch it, but not next to her.
If this is something that you have never been interested in, tell her "Thanks, but I have no interest in this. If you're going to watch [insert show here], let me know." Proceed to another room, oh reasonable one with good manners.
If you have already made plans for the evening, no matter what she's watching, thank her, let her know that you already have plans and proceed with your plans. One of the consequences of her decision is that you no longer have to bend over backwards to do things for her. She needs to know that, not through words, but through your actions.
This will apply equally nicely to any scenario. Really.One last note, she has suddenly started smoking again which is something that has always been a very hot topic of contention.
Cool.
Ignore it.
Not your lungs. Not your problem. Don't even bring it up UNLESS she is smoking in the house. In that case, let her know that you are concerned about your own health and she needs to take it outside. Beyond that, you don't care. Heck, ask her if she wants you to pick her up some cigarettes when you go to the store.
You do, however, need to get a life. I know that it's hard where you're at. Believe me, I know. But you have options.1. People world over speak English. I promise you, if you attempt to go out and socialize, you will find English speakers.
2. People in non-English speaking countries like to hire English speakers to teach. You are an educated man. See if you can find a job teaching English.
3. Go to the FRG and ask them about some language classes that
you can take. I'm sure there's something. As a bonus, you will meet new people at these classes.
Note: NEVER tell ANYONE at the FRG about your family problems. NEVER EVER EVER EVER tell them a word more than they absolutely need to know. If you do, the whole post will know about it. And half the bases stateside. People at the FRG are a casual resource, NOT your friends.4. You're in a new country. EXPLORE! Take a drive. Take a stroll. Download
meetups app (at this point, its creators should start reimbursing me for all the free advertising) and see what's happening - you will have the added bonus of being able to locate English speakers.
The longer you sit alone in this house, the worse it will be for you. Cabin fever is a thing and your wife cannot be your only window to the outside world.
You initially said this:
all my plans for career (I am currently in a masters program) have to be changed to get a job quickly and support myself and we would have to figure out how to pay for my stuff to be moved including my car etc
To me, this is something you need to figure out. Not her. She isnt responsible for your choices for your masters program and job and so on if you do wind up splitting. As Cadet says, Knowledge is Power. Sometimes just knowing what your options are can help you to not be so paralyzed. Taking ownership of your self can be a powerful step to help you break free of your fears of the 'what-ifs'.
So I will clarify this a bit, the job I left to move here overseas was a job directly related to my undergrad degree. My master's is in a much broader field and I am intending to leave the more specific field I was in before, not completely discounting a future possibility of combining the two. However, I have had to do significant background work for the master's since a lot of it was not a part of my undergrad. I am in the middle of it, so if I were to get a job immediately I'm not ready for the new field and would probably have to go back to my old field in the meantime. This is not
totally disastrous, but it is a step back and wasn't the plan, and I am also a year removed now from working in that industry. The good news is that my master's program is remote (how I am able to do it while I'm overseas) and fairly flexible. I wouldn't have to completely drop out because of a location change or going back to work full time. But it will take much longer to complete and be a lot harder, since as I mentioned it is difficult material that I don't have undergrad foundation in so being able to dedicate full time hours to it has been pretty important. Long story short, I don't feel totally hopeless about it if I have to make it work. Certainly wouldn't be ideal like it has been, but I'm grateful as it could be much worse I guess. I will definitely fill in the details though and make sure I have a solid plan should I have to go this route.
One of the biggest takeaways that I got from DR was how important it is to recognize these areas of growth and then to also lay out a plan for actually achieving them. So what quantifiable actions can you take to progress towards this goal? How will you exhibit these traits?
Great points. It's easy to say I want to be less selfish, but thinking about quantifiable actions is a lot harder. I will work on laying out a plan with specific, tangible objectives.
I think youre on the right path. I get being committed to this relationship even in the face of the actions and words from your W. There is no shame in that. My concern is that if you let her get everything she wants for forever, then she has no reason to change the status quo. The bed is kind of a microcosm - here you are, devoted to your marriage 100%, but she wants to separatae and so you move to the guest room sometimes to....help her feel better? Im not sure exactly.
Im not saying that you should be a jerk to her or punish for her thoughts. And Im not saying you should go run out and look for other women or anything like that. Im saying that it isnt your job to cater to her every whim right now. She fired you from that job. You talk about being unselfish, but really, I kinda think now is the time where you SHOULD be a little bit selfish. She is giving you the gift of time to go out and become the person you want to become. Take advantage of it!
My other point above was that you act and come across like you are committed to the marriage 100%. I commend you for that. It's OK to give off that persona here. But think about what that says to W that you are OK with her doing whatever it is she wants and youll always be there as a safety net. How does that attitude lead to her valuing you or your relationship? Now is a good time to understand what qualities you value in a relationship and what you want out of a partner. What is your recourse if she cant meet those expectations?
Right, this makes sense and falls in line with putting myself first and working on detachment. I agree that I struggle with the safety net issue, because my instinct says that I want to be my wife's safety net and that's part of my job (I know, I'm fired now). But, I definitely think it costs me respect and the ability to be valued if I take it too far. I'm asking to be taken for granted. This is something that has been a recurring problem for me even in past relationships and I will do some deeper thinking on your questions.
I am definitely 100% committed, for better or for worse. I don't want to be unhealthily obsessed with it, especially if there is no hope, but I am here first and foremost because I want to do everything humanly possible to save the marriage. DB has given me the hope that it is possible, while also showing me the things I need to do at the same time to better and prepare myself if it doesn't work out, and really I guess even if it does.
Its not a big deal if she initiates it. But I would say that if you are home every night when she comes in waiting to see if she wants to do something with you....thats not good. GAL is so so so so so so important. I dont think anyone here can stress that enough to you. You need to start making your own plans - even if it's just to go to the coffee house down the street for a few hours to read or people watch. Get out of the house and start doing something. Anything. Go to a dance class, a game night, a language class, parasailing, scuba diving, doesnt really matter.
This is somewhat relieving that I am 'allowed' to spend at least some time with her if it isn't me pursuing. But it's a good point about not being too available and can help balance some of that feeling that if she can have me for company she is getting the best of both worlds. Tonight, I will make it a point not to be home when she gets here. I have signed up for Meetup and am looking into some events coming up in my area. I understand how important GAL is and am making it a priority.
Claimed she wanted to quit, I supported her, but somehow half the time we were arguing about it because she wouldn't fully commit and it became an issue of me controlling her. Now it seems like a clear act of independence/rebellion now that she is "free".
Who knows? It culd be that shes sad or scared or nervous or whatever else. I would say just note it for now.
As for your other comments above...can you see a difference between "Im not willing to be around a smoker" and "You need to stop smoking if you want to be in this relationship"? I feel like the first removes any need for an argument and is about your boundary while the second is controlling to her. Think about that distinction as you move forward in this process.
I see the distinction. Clearly illustrates the problem of me not wanting to set a boundary out of fear it will push her away, which means I'm not really standing my ground on what I really want and value, and instead becoming manipulative to try and fit her into my idealistic mold.
Thank you for the feedback on my texts with her. I will try to follow the 70% advice, which will be hard because she is more of a one-liner and I am a multi-pager, always been that way. But you are right, more words are usually not necessary and this is an unbalance I have felt with many people not just her. I love the quote you provided. However, it does confuse me a bit. For some reason, I was under the impression that I wasn't supposed to let her know that I was against/fighting the divorce. Obviously she already knows it isn't what I want, but I thought I was supposed to make it seem like I had accepted it because if she gets the notion that I am hanging on, it will strengthen her resolve. Am I off base here?
This will apply equally nicely to any scenario. Really.
Great suggestions, thank you for explaining so clearly. I can definitely be reasonable and have good manners
, but it is a good note that I shouldn't mention anything about enjoying any time I spend with her. At first, I wasn't sure if I
should be spending any time with her or if she was supposed to be feeling the effects of my absence. But it seems unavoidable living under the same roof and it sounds like small doses when she initiates and I respond appropriately are fine.
This is exactly what I have done. Haven't said a word, even when she leaves the butts and even an empty box (?) all over the driveway. Thankfully, she would never smoke in the house. If it is some kind of test, I will not take the bait. Like Amoafwl said, it could just be her stress or response to everything but she knows darn well how I feel about it and I'm sure she's aware I notice.
You do, however, need to get a life. I know that it's hard where you're at. Believe me, I know. But you have options.
I know you are so right. It is hard because I am so used to spending a ton of time at home in the office working on my schoolwork. But, I am making a big effort to GAL. I actually just signed up for Meetup today! Great suggestion. I plan to do a lot more venturing out into the local community and if I drive to the nearest city, you are right there will definitely be plenty of English speakers. This seems to be where most of the meetup stuff is located as well. In my little rural town, I will practice my local language skills. I have considered getting a job teaching English since I got here and I think this is very doable. Now that I have more motivation to make the time, I will seriously consider it.
Omg, are you right about not talking to FRG about any problems. The military community can be infested with gossip and whispering, I choose my friends within it very wisely. I really appreciate your input, Olya!
I know you are so right. It is hard because I am so used to spending a ton of time at home in the office working on my schoolwork. But, I am making a big effort to GAL. I actually just signed up for Meetup today! Great suggestion. I plan to do a lot more venturing out into the local community and if I drive to the nearest city, you are right there will definitely be plenty of English speakers. This seems to be where most of the meetup stuff is located as well. In my little rural town, I will practice my local language skills. I have considered getting a job teaching English since I got here and I think this is very doable. Now that I have more motivation to make the time, I will seriously consider it.
I think you just needed someone to tell you to go and do it. You're an intelligent and motivated person. You have to have a lot of interests. The key is to begin to remember what those interests are. It will take time.
I recently joined a book club. First meeting is in 2 weeks. I'm really excited to get the book and I will be listening to it on long drives back and forth.
And that's another thing you can do - get into audio files, like audio books, podcasts, and web programs. It helps with the silence. You can just put your earbuds in, turn on your program, and do something you like doing: a long drive, cooking a meal for yourself, cleaning your personal space, etc. I find that it can be very hard to read for fun because (1) no time, and (2) I already stare at letters way too much as it is - my eyes are tired. Audio books have really helped me to reconnect with literature. Consider giving them a shot.
You have to have a lot of interests.
I do have a ton of interests actually! Used to be so many I didn't know which to pursue first. Now, many have fallen by the wayside. Maybe I will make a physical list for inspiration.
I recently joined a book club. First meeting is in 2 weeks. I'm really excited to get the book and I will be listening to it on long drives back and forth.
This sounds like a great idea. Good for you.
And that's another thing you can do - get into audio files, like audio books, podcasts, and web programs. It helps with the silence.
I spend enough time looking at characters on a screen all day as well. However, I do enjoy reading. Maybe I will try a mix of both. If podcasts/books count as GAL, then that's an easy start for me! I can implement them into my wind-down routine now that I am doing it alone and don't have the conversation.
I will definitely fill in the details though and make sure I have a solid plan should I have to go this route.
Again, I dont think you need to
do anything right now as far as moving or applying or anything like that. I just think you need to know your options and have a couple of plans in your head in case the time comes.
Great points. It's easy to say I want to be less selfish, but thinking about quantifiable actions is a lot harder. I will work on laying out a plan with specific, tangible objectives.
Awesome. Consider what your goals are and then figure out what steps you need to take to get there. As MWD says, you dont make a 40 foot putt by aiming at the hole. You start by aiming at a place 3 feet away.
I am definitely 100% committed, for better or for worse. I don't want to be unhealthily obsessed with it, especially if there is no hope, but I am here first and foremost because I want to do everything humanly possible to save the marriage. DB has given me the hope that it is possible, while also showing me the things I need to do at the same time to better and prepare myself if it doesn't work out, and really I guess even if it does.
Remember, there is always hope. Just dont let hope paralyze you.
And also remember, just because she might be sad or mad or jealous or whatever based on your actions, that doesnt mean that they werent the ones to give you the best chance for R.
This is somewhat relieving that I am 'allowed' to spend at least some time with her if it isn't me pursuing. But it's a good point about not being too available and can help balance some of that feeling that if she can have me for company she is getting the best of both worlds. Tonight, I will make it a point not to be home when she gets here. I have signed up for Meetup and am looking into some events coming up in my area. I understand how important GAL is and am making it a priority.
Good. And remember...you dont need to TELL HER about your GAL or everything that you did/are doing. Its for you.
However, it does confuse me a bit. For some reason, I was under the impression that I wasn't supposed to let her know that I was against/fighting the divorce.
You did. The first words are "I dont think divorce is the solution to our problems." What more do you need to say than that? I feel like it is clearly stating what you believe while also showing that you are understanding and accepting her decisions as valid.
NOW....dont go running off to say that every 5 minutes to her. But thats the frame of mind you should have in your dealings. And if she asks you again what your thoughts are, thats what I would go with.
I got out of the house today and went for a long run and then walk. Was a beautiful day and I really enjoyed it. Good to clear my head.
W was home when I got back. She asked me if I could check if her car had oil. Then she sent me her MRI results for her wrist issue and asked if I could explain them. Now she is asking my opinion on which phone she should buy (not exactly sure about her decision to drop 1k on a phone when a few days ago she was talking about the potential costs of having to ship my stuff...).
All this makes me wonder what she would do without me...I'm saying this with a chuckle, but hey at least I'm smiling! I don't mind helping her with this stuff, but someone tell me if I shouldn't be. Or is it a good sign? Probably nothing, but it does reinforce some of my thinking that she has not really thought through the separation. No timetable, no real plan. Just sleeping in separate rooms.
She has mentioned things like I don't need to do her laundry and she will do the dishes (yet to happen). Normally, this is my role as the "stay at home" spouse. I still want to do some of the housework as if I'm living here and she is still supporting me financially I feel I should contribute. But I am doing less than before, especially with things directly related to her. I'm not going to pick up after her or make sure she has lunch etc. Hopefully this is a good strategy. It's hard to not feel the urge because it used to be one of my weak points that she felt let down by a lot. One of the ways I feel like I listened to her feelings and really stepped up, but apparently wasn't the root of the problem.
Now she is asking my opinion on which phone she should buy (not exactly sure about her decision to drop 1k on a phone when a few days ago she was talking about the potential costs of having to ship my stuff...).
44tries,
That's a good question; maybe you should ask her why she needs the new phone. Is it possible that her current phone doesn't work well with the latest private messaging apps?
I'm struggling with the same issue. How much is too much? This is the person paying the bills. Also, living together means that a financial hit will hurt both parties.
In my life, I am arranging for car rentals. I contact customer support to set up service for exercise equipment. I handle taxes, budgeting, and bills. He still comes to me about doing these things. What am I to do? Tell the boat to sink while I'm still on it?
Here's my suggestion. I doubt you'll like the consequences of her car running out of oil and messing up the motor - that is a major fight and money out of your joint pocket. Just change the oil and expect her to take it for granted.
As for the phone, tell her that she knows best and that, in your opinion, she should get something reliable. It's solid advice that lets her do whatever she wants. If later there is no money for you to go home early, then she will have learned a valuable lesson on budgeting.
But don't read too much into her requests. I doubt that right now they mean anything.
But don't read too much into her requests. I doubt that right now they mean anything.
I disagree just a little. I think her requests do mean something. I think they mean that she owns 44; he's her do-boy while she's booting his @ss out. She doesn't have any respect for 44. He's all smiley and nice and he does what she asks. Oh wait, he doesn't do her laundry or pick up after her.
Wake up. She's got a little somethin'-somethin' on the side and she needs a new phone so she can stay in touch and keep things private. And, all the while she's pulling 44 strings. He'll check that oil because he's so sweet (and she's got no respect). What could be better for Ms Thang?
44, you've been booted out and replaced, but you just don't "get it" yet. Stop messing around and do what you need to do to protect yourself and move on.
As MWD says, you dont make a 40 foot putt by aiming at the hole. You start by aiming at a place 3 feet away.
Love this.
You did. The first words are "I dont think divorce is the solution to our problems." What more do you need to say than that? I feel like it is clearly stating what you believe while also showing that you are understanding and accepting her decisions as valid.
I meant that I thought I was NOT supposed to say outright that I was against the divorce. She knows I don't think it's the solution. She feels that I have been the one dragging it on and I will never give up. She feels she has tried, and been unhappy, and I refuse to accept it (not her explicit words, but I know she becomes exasperated by my relentlessness). In her "talk", she expressed her feelings that she needs to do the selfish thing for once and hates to hurt me, but she thinks it's best to end it.
So I feel like my 180 (not sure if I'm using the term right), is to not fight back this time, at least with words (her sentiment is we talk and talk and get nowhere), and focus on the actions. My idea for this came from something I read about how if they think you have hope, they won't allow themselves to have it, and their resolves deepens...something along those lines. I'm totally open to it if you're saying you don't think this is the right approach, just clarifying because I think you might have misread my question.
That's a good question; maybe you should ask her why she needs the new phone. Is it possible that her current phone doesn't work well with the latest private messaging apps?
Well, her phone has had a completely smashed screen for a few months now and is frankly a piece of crap. She has been talking about getting a new one for a while, but ends up saying "no it's fine I don't NEED it, my phone still does basic functions, and we don't need to spend the money etc". Part of her insistence on avoiding her own needs. So it's not surprising that if she is in an effort to do things for herself, one of the first things would be to get a new phone.
I'm not sure if you are implying she might be trying to message people secretly? I am not concerned about this at all. I know exactly who she messages and when because she refuses to turn off any of her phone noises including the typing sound (very annoying lol). I'm not worried about her having any kind of EA while we are still married, even if she has declared separation. It's simply not her character. That said, my own mother is the last person I thought would ever have an A and she recently did, so I certainly know that anything is possible.
In my life, I am arranging for car rentals. I contact customer support to set up service for exercise equipment. I handle taxes, budgeting, and bills. He still comes to me about doing these things. What am I to do? Tell the boat to sink while I'm still on it?
This is my exact situation. I am the one that knows how to "do" everything and if I don't, I know how to figure out how. I take care of the budget and all the logistical stuff. If I didn't order the dogs' food on time every month, I seriously think she might open the bin one day and find it empty and be shocked. While I'm still on the boat, I can't just allow it to sink. I am the one that keeps things even keeled no matter what the latest "emotional wave" is. So, when does this role end? I guess when everything is actually separated and I have my own life.
Wake up. She's got a little somethin'-somethin' on the side and she needs a new phone so she can stay in touch and keep things private. And, all the while she's pulling 44 strings. He'll check that oil because he's so sweet (and she's got no respect). What could be better for Ms Thang?
I can hear her messaging right now...if her "something'-somethin'" is a very unattractive 19-yr old girl, who she outranks by at least 4 grades, and doesn't mind if I hear the ding of every message, then I guess she can have her.
So, when does this role end? I guess when everything is actually separated and I have my own life.
Yes. And that is something that you don't have to help her with. She can go make all the arrangements. Seek legal advice (without telling her), but do not help her get the ball rolling unless you actually want to. Wherever you are staying, it's your home too. And if you do want to leave, when is the best time for you to do it? Think about that. You're not her live-in boyfriend.
This is my plan. Like I said, she doesn't seem to have thought it through very well and I'm taking this as a positive from a "hope" standpoint. I have an idea of what I will do if she does start pushing and I leave and I am preparing in case, but hoping it doesn't get that far.
So, about the bed situation. She came in the room tonight to plug her stuff in and briefly checked her pillow for dog hair (daily struggles lol), I almost thought she was going to get in the bed. She kind of sulked to the closet and I could tell she wasn't too happy about sleeping in the spare room for a third night in a row. I fought the urge to try and accommodate, and she left mumbling she was fine. Two seconds later, she is back saying I don't have to but could I please wash one of her blankets tomorrow because she is cold in there. This is a perfect example of a situation that makes me squirm.
Since we talked today about how I supported the idea of sleeping separately, it feels disingenuine to also want her back in the bed. If she were to decide to come back, even if just for comfort reasons, is that still a win for me? Or only if it comes with an actual change of heart?
While I wait for DR to come in the mail (sadly might take a while, they really need to make an ebook version!), I am reading a couple books by Andrew G Marshall I could get Kindle versions for. "I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You: Seven Steps to Saving Your Relationship" and "My Wife Doesn't Love Me Anymore". A few of the reviews compared them to DR and said they followed the same methods, and overall the philosophy is the same--working on changing yourself, building for both outcomes basically. The problem is I'm surprised to find a lot of differences from the "rules" here.
For example, AGM seems to think talking to friends and family about your problems is a good thing. At one point, he even states the second best person to be a sounding board about making sense of your wife's feelings is your own mother! (First best being your sister). I have to say I disagree. I am not tempted to do this anyway, but it was a striking difference.
The one common theme is not saying things like "I love you" anymore or trying to reach out in that way. Not surprising because this seems like the most obvious. Overall, it is just a bit confusing because most of his strategies are for changing yourself, but the focus is still a lot about the relationship and the wife. This is despite the fact that he is clearly writing to husbands whose wives have little to no hope for the marriage. I don't know how to implement many of the techniques if I am not even initiating basic conversation with W. They revolve around being more giving, loving, thoughtful, etc which are great things but don't seem appropriate until the next stage, if I even make it there. I'm still struggling to know how to show that these positive changes are possible while I'm totally focused on myself. Hopefully, DR is more clear. Any other book suggestions are welcome.
On the bright side, he did provide one line which I absolutely love. He says make your new personal motto "I'll never make it easy for myself again." When faced with two choices, always go with the most challenging. This is great for me because I think it can apply both in a relationship context and my own personal life. Self-discipline is not my greatest strength and while I am ambitious and successful in what I do, a lot of things have come easy for me in life and as a result I can be quick to put on cruise control. Adopting this motto can go a long way to make me better live up to my full potential in all areas of life.
So, about the bed situation. She came in the room tonight to plug her stuff in and briefly checked her pillow for dog hair (daily struggles lol), I almost thought she was going to get in the bed. She kind of sulked to the closet and I could tell she wasn't too happy about sleeping in the spare room for a third night in a row. I fought the urge to try and accommodate, and she left mumbling she was fine. Two seconds later, she is back saying I don't have to but could I please wash one of her blankets tomorrow because she is cold in there. This is a perfect example of a situation that makes me squirm.
So, this looks like progress to me. At the very least, your wife is starting to realize that her decision will come with unpleasant consequences. Don't get me wrong, she may still go through the divorce. However, she is getting a better idea that it will not be a no-lose proposition for her.
From my own situation (since I'm on round 2 at this point), let me caution you that words are also actions. Talking is an act. We can choose to do it or not do it. Why do I tell you this? Because while saying "I'll help around the house more" means a lot less than getting off the couch and taking out the trash, saying "I've made a mistake and I want us to work on this marriage" means just as much if not more than attempting to hold hands or going back to sleeping in the same bed.
Do not push her away. Do not pressure her. Do not expect those words to come any time soon. However, by the same token, do not let your guard down and think that everything is fine until she is willing to say something along those lines to you. Unprompted. You cannot force this and you cannot demand this.
Since we talked today about how I supported the idea of sleeping separately, it feels disingenuine to also want her back in the bed. If she were to decide to come back, even if just for comfort reasons, is that still a win for me? Or only if it comes with an actual change of heart?
Don't look at this in terms of wins or losses. If she decides to come back, I don't see why you should act like you've noticed. Keep living your life. Keep being cheerful. Do not be mean to her. If she does something really nice, like make dinner, thank her. If all she does is end one of her tantrums, surely you do not have to command her for acting like a big girl.
Change of heart takes time. It will take you being a better person and it will take her realizing that grass isn't always greener on the other side. Both have to be genuine.
So, this looks like progress to me. At the very least, your wife is starting to realize that her decision will come with unpleasant consequences. Don't get me wrong, she may still go through the divorce. However, she is getting a better idea that it will not be a no-lose proposition for her.
I'm glad you think this is progress. The logic makes sense.
From my own situation (since I'm on round 2 at this point), let me caution you that words are also actions. Talking is an act.
Do not push her away. Do not pressure her. Do not expect those words to come any time soon. However, by the same token, do not let your guard down and think that everything is fine until she is willing to say something along those lines to you. Unprompted. You cannot force this and you cannot demand this.
Let me make sure I got your point. You're saying that if progress is made and she does things like come back to the bed, it isn't as important as when and if she decides to actually use her words and say she wants to try again? And until this happens, I need to remain vigilant in straddling the line between pushing/pressuring, not getting my hopes up, DBing, etc...is this what you meant?
Change of heart takes time. It will take you being a better person and it will take her realizing that grass isn't always greener on the other side. Both have to be genuine.
Perfectly stated. I can only control the me being a better person part and hope it makes the grass look nice and green on this side
Let me make sure I got your point. You're saying that if progress is made and she does things like come back to the bed, it isn't as important as when and if she decides to actually use her words and say she wants to try again? And until this happens, I need to remain vigilant in straddling the line between pushing/pressuring, not getting my hopes up, DBing, etc...is this what you meant?
Yes. Until and unless she says it, you don't know where you stand with her or what her terms are.
Today I went to the gym, grocery store, and took the dogs to the park. Did some research on getting a part-time English teaching job while I keep studying and plan on getting the applications rolling tomorrow.
W seems to be pretty concerned with my whereabouts/what I'm doing. Asks me in the morning if I'm coming to base, what time, then checks at that time if I'm there. I ran into her supervisor at the store and he says, "O hi, W was wondering if you were going to make it on base today." No idea why she would be talking to her supervisor about that. She messaged me asking am I at the gym, am I at the store, am I still there. "No, I'm getting gas." "Where? I don't see you." I guess she's stalking me now.
Yes. Until and unless she says it, you don't know where you stand with her or what her terms are.
Agreed. This has basically been my situation for the past year because she never did explicitly say anything. I don't want that to happen again.
Update:
Whew, sitting down and writing this minutes after conversation between W and I, ended because she had to leave for work. She initiated the talk by asking again if I had any more thoughts. I could tell this time she definitely meant about logistics, leaving, etc. I know I don't have a good answer for this, because deep down the fact is that I don't want to. On top of the fact that it's going to be a difficult mess without easy answers even if I did want to. I told her I am doing what I need to prepare myself, but valued her input as well. She said she was worried we would just live together for the next ten months tip-toeing around each other. Or falling back into our old, unhappy ways. Valid.
The good news is, I feel like despite everything she said, she gave me hope. She did not completely close the door. I tried to follow Amoafwl's line "I don't think a definitive decision to divorce/separate is the answer, but I respect your decision if it's what you feel is best."
Somehow we started getting on a little tangent about how she feels pressured and pushed by me to do things I want and not her. My rational arguments make her second guess herself. Because I have been so pushy in the past, she feels she can't trust me when I say make the decision for yourself, I am completely okay with whatever you choose. She said it's bad for someone with her personality, there is no way to relieve that pressure. I started trying to offer answers, but stopped myself. Don't want to get ahead of myself, but it's also extremely difficult to shake that desperate feeling to show her it can be different.
She ended by saying we are past that now, right now at this moment she is not in the place to think that way. She made her decision and she needs to try separation. Honestly, I just feel joy and relief that she left it open that she might feel like trying again in the future. Now, I just don't want to screw up and close that little crack in the door. I hope I didn't already, she seemed a little bit frustrated when she left. I feel paralyzed and like any step I take could be a land mine. I DO respect her choice and am willing to give her true separation. But it seems she doesn't feel that living together meets that criteria, but doesn't have an answer to what will.
Last night, I felt I could almost reach out and touch her internal struggle with everything. She has been playing sad music, lingering around looking at me with puppy dog eyes. For the first time, I feel sure that my hope is not just delusional, wishful thinking. But it's hanging by a thread and that totally freaks me out.
Any advice appreciated.
So, after the conversation from the update I posted above, I’ve been taking a step back and doing some more thinking. I'm trying to truly lay out my options and answer the logistical questions for myself 1. because they need to be answered and 2. because clearly it's an elephant in the room and she needs some answers too. She asked if I had thought about taking a trip. Or staying with family. These are two VERY different things in mind, but maybe not as much as I think. I'm going to get my personal thoughts "on paper" here and lay out my three possible scenarios for the next ten months (remember this is the built in timeline because it's how much time we have left living here at this location).
Scenario 1: This is my ideal scenario and one that is essentially already ruled out because it doesn't seem to be what she wants, but I'm going to flesh it out anyway. I wish we could use this bomb drop as a true wake up call that our marriage is in critical condition. I wish she had said, "Look, I've been thinking and the way I am feeling, I don't know that I want you on my next orders or to keep living this life with you. I'm unhappy and it isn't sustainable. If something doesn't change, our marriage is going to end." She didn't say this, she basically told me she had been thinking and made the decision to give up on her own. I would never blame her for the way she feels because I know she can't help it, but there is part of me that thinks the approach is unfair. Blindsiding me after I had thought all our issues were improving, and writing off the chance to use the time we have here to do some 180s together and try things we never tried before, is frustrating. I'm not holding on to this anger, but it's there and I'm getting it out here rather than at her. We committed to coming here together for two years when she got her assignment, I quit my job, and we moved our lives across the globe. The commitment of marriage being lifelong aside, at a minimum we had a very clearly defined two year timeline.
Scenario 2: She mentioned the idea of a trip, and clearly sleeping in separate rooms isn't her idea of real separation. So, I could take a trip for a couple weeks to a nearby country, make some new friends, and allow us both to breathe. It would be a little difficult to put off my schoolwork as I'm getting close to spring finals and in the thick of things. But it's probably possible without causing too much detriment and I would be willing to make it work. Obviously, this is going to cost some money but I think we would both be willing to invest a little in giving each other the space we really need. My hope would be that I come back and she's more open to trying something like Scenario 1. If not, I would have to move to Scenario 3.
Scenario 3: I could skip straight here and avoid the cost of the Scenario 2 trip if it wasn't worthwhile (this is something I don't know how to decide because it's up to her and how she feels and I don't think she would even be able to guess). This is a bit more extreme than a local trip. I could pack a couple bags, everything I would need to live minimally for up to a maximum of 10 months, and go stay with family back home in the states. Also an incurred cost for the long flight, but if she doesn't want me under this roof, that's unavoidable. I can stay with them as long as I need and keep putting my head down on my studies and job preparation, while keeping communication lines with her open and we would agree to re-evaluate every few weeks. If she decides the separation has "worked" and she wants to try again, she can ask me to come home. If not, I will be focused on myself and preparation for life apart, and at the end of the 10 months I will come back and help her with separating what's left of our stuff, doing move-out duties, pick up my dog, ship my car etc. All the more "permanent" stuff. By then, I will be ready to apply for jobs in my new field even if they are very entry level, as long as I can support myself while finishing my master's, this is fine. I get a new job, new apartment, my new life begins.
I am okay with the fact that the next ten months probably won't be much fun and will be a lot of hard work. I know I will come out a stronger person, whatever happens, and be prepared to close the chapter of my life that involved her and not look back. I won't give up hope until then, but at least I have a definitive timeline for how long I will hang on. I agree with her that trying to do all this under the same roof IF she isn't open to doing any work on our marriage, is probably not healthy. She has explicitly stated she is NOT kicking me out, but at the same time we are in an awkward limbo that can’t be ignored. It is more comfortable for me here and it is my home, but if I'm honest the main reason I don't want to leave is because I (maybe falsely?) think the chances of reconciliation are higher if I'm at least physically present.
Now, my issue is how do I go about communicating all of this to her?? She keeps asking for my "thoughts", well those are my thoughts, but it doesn’t feel like I should just show all my cards. I DO NOT want to put pressure on her, as this is clearly a major issue already, but how is there not pressure when there is this timed separation and we're facing a deadline? How is there not pressure if she's knows I'm just waiting/hoping for her to ask me to come home? I can GAL and focus on myself till the cows come home, but this will always remain true at the end of the day. Until she moves from this house to a new country and I have a new job and home, I will be fighting for the marriage.
That was long and if anyone actually took the time to read it, thank you. Truly. I’m hoping for third party input before making any decisions or talking to her about anything.
44tries,
I know you're going to hate this, but the sooner you can say, "Adios babeeee; have a great life" the better your chances are of saving your marriage. But, I understand that's almost impossible to do because of the psychological barriers. We all become Klingons on BD and we just can't seem to stop clinging.
Scenario 1: This is my ideal scenario and one that is essentially already ruled out because it doesn't seem to be what she wants, but I'm going to flesh it out anyway. I wish we could use this bomb drop as a true wake up call that our marriage is in critical condition. I wish she had said, "Look, I've been thinking and the way I am feeling, I don't know that I want you on my next orders or to keep living this life with you. I'm unhappy and it isn't sustainable. If something doesn't change, our marriage is going to end." She didn't say this, she basically told me she had been thinking and made the decision to give up on her own. I would never blame her for the way she feels because I know she can't help it, but there is part of me that thinks the approach is unfair. Blindsiding me after I had thought all our issues were improving, and writing off the chance to use the time we have here to do some 180s together and try things we never tried before, is frustrating. I'm not holding on to this anger, but it's there and I'm getting it out here rather than at her. We committed to coming here together for two years when she got her assignment, I quit my job, and we moved our lives across the globe. The commitment of marriage being lifelong aside, at a minimum we had a very clearly defined two year timeline. [quote]
Throw this in the garbage, because it aint happening. Trust me when I say that she likely communicated similar needs to you in the past and they were blown off. Do you know why this time you are suddenly springing to action? Because SHE is starting to take some action. Because this time, she finally means business. Pushing for this option only invalidates the struggle she has been enduring for years.
[quote=44tries]Scenario 2: She mentioned the idea of a trip, and clearly sleeping in separate rooms isn't her idea of real separation. So, I could take a trip for a couple weeks to a nearby country, make some new friends, and allow us both to breathe. It would be a little difficult to put off my schoolwork as I'm getting close to spring finals and in the thick of things. But it's probably possible without causing too much detriment and I would be willing to make it work. Obviously, this is going to cost some money but I think we would both be willing to invest a little in giving each other the space we really need. My hope would be that I come back and she's more open to trying something like Scenario 1. If not, I would have to move to Scenario 3.
NOTHING is going to be solved in a two week time period. Whats the result after this trip? You go back to how it is now? I dont see the point. Now, if you want to go on this trip for GAL, then go for it!
Scenario 3: I could skip straight here and avoid the cost of the Scenario 2 trip if it wasn't worthwhile (this is something I don't know how to decide because it's up to her and how she feels and I don't think she would even be able to guess). This is a bit more extreme than a local trip. I could pack a couple bags, everything I would need to live minimally for up to a maximum of 10 months, and go stay with family back home in the states. Also an incurred cost for the long flight, but if she doesn't want me under this roof, that's unavoidable. I can stay with them as long as I need and keep putting my head down on my studies and job preparation, while keeping communication lines with her open and we would agree to re-evaluate every few weeks. If she decides the separation has "worked" and she wants to try again, she can ask me to come home. If not, I will be focused on myself and preparation for life apart, and at the end of the 10 months I will come back and help her with separating what's left of our stuff, doing move-out duties, pick up my dog, ship my car etc. All the more "permanent" stuff. By then, I will be ready to apply for jobs in my new field even if they are very entry level, as long as I can support myself while finishing my master's, this is fine. I get a new job, new apartment, my new life begins.
So she says SHE wants a separation, and your first thought is to go running back to another country. Why is it that YOU are the one that needs to plan all of this? Why cant she find some alternative? (just like with the sleeping arrangement).I just dont understand totally uprooting yourself for 10 months on some chance of 'some spark' or something. I just dont see how a temporary accommodation will do anything. My ex and I had a plan to separate to give space and see how things go and within 2 weeks, she was saying she wanted a divorce. I didnt know about OM then, but that isnt really important.
I just think setting yourself up to 10 months of 'checking in monthly' and you living your life based on her whims is a good long term plan.
You may want to read the threads from BEClem. He moved to his parents house for a '6 month separation' and could never get back in the house. He wrote a lot so I think there are many threads, but it was an interesting trip.
he has explicitly stated she is NOT kicking me out, but at the same time we are in an awkward limbo that can’t be ignored. It is more comfortable for me here and it is my home, but if I'm honest the main reason I don't want to leave is because I (maybe falsely?) think the chances of reconciliation are higher if I'm at least physically present.
Its your home and you are most comfortable there. Why is it your job to go 'live minimally' so she can figure her crap out?
Now, my issue is how do I go about communicating all of this to her?? She keeps asking for my "thoughts", well those are my thoughts, but it doesn’t feel like I should just show all my cards. I DO NOT want to put pressure on her, as this is clearly a major issue already, but how is there not pressure when there is this timed separation and we're facing a deadline? How is there not pressure if she's knows I'm just waiting/hoping for her to ask me to come home? I can GAL and focus on myself till the cows come home, but this will always remain true at the end of the day. Until she moves from this house to a new country and I have a new job and home, I will be fighting for the marriage.
1) No. Dont show all of your cards.
2) Let her ask for your thoughts...
"This is my home, and Im not planning to leave. I will not hold you here, if you would like some time or space away."
What more do you need to say?
3) GAL and focusing on you IS SO THAT YOU STOP WAITING ON HER. Like I asked you before, why is she the only one that gets to have that power in this relationship. I think this is a very important question:
"Does she have any fear that she might lose you?"
If that answer is no, then what incentive is there for her to turn back to you as a partner? If she knows that she can do or say whatever she wants and youll be there for her, then what negative is there for her to keep going as she wants?
44tries,
I know you're going to hate this, but the sooner you can say, "Adios babeeee; have a great life" the better your chances are of saving your marriage. But, I understand that's almost impossible to do because of the psychological barriers. We all become Klingons on BD and we just can't seem to stop clinging.
I don't hate it. Yes, it feels almost impossible because accepting she is gone and moving on cannot live in the same space as wanting to save the marriage. Fighting and surrendering at the same time. But, I understand the point, and majority of the time it may unfortunately be true.
Yes, it feels almost impossible because accepting she is gone and moving on cannot live in the same space as wanting to save the marriage.
I wholeheartedly, 100% disagree with this sentiment.
The way I see it, you need to live your life
as if she is not going to 'come around'. Part of that means accepting that the relationship is over.
That does not at all mean that you need to stop wanting to save your marriage. What if I told you that doing ^^^
IS the best way to save your marriage?
Throw this in the garbage, because it aint happening. Trust me when I say that she likely communicated similar needs to you in the past and they were blown off. Do you know why this time you are suddenly springing to action? Because SHE is starting to take some action. Because this time, she finally means business. Pushing for this option only invalidates the struggle she has been enduring for years.
Thanks for reinforcing this. I know it isn't happening, at least not right now. But since I'm saying this to you, not her, I wanted to get it out to complete my thoughts and let it go. It's good to be reminded about not invalidating the struggle.
NOTHING is going to be solved in a two week time period. Whats the result after this trip? You go back to how it is now? I dont see the point. Now, if you want to go on this trip for GAL, then go for it!
I agree. I don't have high hopes for this option because it isn't very logical. But, I feel about how you do about all the options. How do I form a new option that allows to remain in the house and compromises with her on her desire for space? You say to let her figure it out. This is what I have been trying and I guess I will continue to field the "thoughts" questions and allow her to be the one to make a definitive plan. But, I also realize it's not possible for her to be the one to leave or she probably would. I guess not my problem?
So she says SHE wants a separation, and your first thought is to go running back to another country. Why is it that YOU are the one that needs to plan all of this? Why cant she find some alternative? (just like with the sleeping arrangement).I just dont understand totally uprooting yourself for 10 months on some chance of 'some spark' or something. I just dont see how a temporary accommodation will do anything. My ex and I had a plan to separate to give space and see how things go and within 2 weeks, she was saying she wanted a divorce. I didnt know about OM then, but that isnt really important.
I just think setting yourself up to 10 months of 'checking in monthly' and you living your life based on her whims is a good long term plan.
You may want to read the threads from BEClem. He moved to his parents house for a '6 month separation' and could never get back in the house. He wrote a lot so I think there are many threads, but it was an interesting trip.
I will try to find his threads. This is good for reinforcing that separation, whether "trial" or not, isn't a good answer. Sometimes this isn't clear since it seems so common. Again, I totally agree with your questions. It sounds like you think I should just stay planted until if and when I'm forced to move?
I just don't want to deny her space, because I do think that she needs it and it seems pretty important in everything I've read. And I understand her hands are fairly tied when her job is here and she isn't even in a position where she could take leave and follow her trip idea for herself right now. I was hoping the separate rooms and leaving her alone and doing my own thing even when she's home is enough. She made a strange comment this morning about how she felt she had to come home and sit if she knew I was here. She said it would be "disrespectful" to go do things without me. I told her she was absolutely free to go and do whatever she wanted and I have no expectations or demands otherwise. I'm not sure if she meant if she hung out with mutual friends and didn't invite me that she felt this would be wrong or what. She is nearly as isolated as me because we are at a fairly remote location where the base is tiny and she doesn't have many friends here either. Anyway, I get it, not my problem.
"Does she have any fear that she might lose you?"
If that answer is no, then what incentive is there for her to turn back to you as a partner? If she knows that she can do or say whatever she wants and youll be there for her, then what negative is there for her to keep going as she wants?
Great question and I see the point. Although, it does seem to run counter to the idea of digging my heels in and not leaving. How can I show her she can lose me while also refusing to leave? The answer I suppose lies in GAL. I hope she doesn't feel "disrespected" when I go to Meetup events without her...
Last note for the day, she asked me to come to her work because she left her medication at home and she had something to give me. I won't deny her medicine so I agreed and she pulled out a gift--something I have wanted for a while and isn't exactly cheap. What the heck?? I don't want her guilt gifts.
doodler waxes with metaphor...
Here in Florida, we constantly hear about someone drowning in a rip current. The reason they drown is that they do what's intuitive; they swim toward shore. Unfortunately, what they end up doing when they swim toward shore is exhausting themselves and then they panic and drown. Game over.
To save themselves, all they really have to do is surrender to the current, and float a little further away from shore, then swim laterally to get out of the current. It seems so easy when you're not the one who's panicking in an outgoing current.
44tries, you're panicking and you're going to exhaust yourself and drown. Relax a little and go with the flow.
I wholeheartedly, 100% disagree with this sentiment.
The way I see it, you need to live your life as if she is not going to 'come around'. Part of that means accepting that the relationship is over.
That does not at all mean that you need to stop wanting to save your marriage. What if I told you that doing ^^^ IS the best way to save your marriage?
Hmm, well in my mind there are two versions of moving on and accepting she is gone.
The kind I think doodler means is the true, 100% IDGAF anymore I am over and done with you kind. So, what I meant was I can't do IDGAF and simultaneously want to save the marriage because that, by definition, is GAF.
The kind that I would assume you mean is the best way to save a marriage is the loving something and letting it go kind. Accepting that she may very well be gone, not fighting it, and getting on with life
despite GAF. Like you said, living
as if she's gone. Am I wrong and they are somehow the same?
44tries, you're panicking and you're going to exhaust yourself and drown. Relax a little and go with the flow.
Thanks, doodler. I am a huge fan of metaphors and this one is great. I will do my best and remind myself I am in a riptide every time the anxiety spikes.
This will be short because I'm on mobile and don't have a whole lot of lunch break left.
DO NOT MOVE OUT!
SHE wanted the separation. It is on HER to figure things out. By the way, did you know that her command will move HER to the barracks if there is an issue? That's right! This is your marital home and as her spouse, you have rights.
You need to go talk to the local JAG office ASAP. Figure out exactly what your rights are. Do NOT tell her you're going. Just go when she is at work.
This will be short because I'm on mobile and don't have a whole lot of lunch break left.
DO NOT MOVE OUT!
SHE wanted the separation. It is on HER to figure things out. By the way, did you know that her command will move HER to the barracks if there is an issue? That's right! This is your marital home and as her spouse, you have rights.
You need to go talk to the local JAG office ASAP. Figure out exactly what your rights are. Do NOT tell her you're going. Just go when she is at work.
Thank you, Olya. You and Amoafwl have helped me rule out leaving as an option. I don't want to, and she isn't forcing me to, at least not yet. I am just struggling with how to give her the space she needs. I had not considered the possibility of having her moved to the dorms...if she does decide to push me to leave, I am glad to have this in my arsenal. Also, this could be an option for her to pursue if she truly wishes for that space.
Yeah, but don't tell HER about it. You are not here to arm her with more information. If she wants to live alone, it is on her to figure things out.
I am just struggling with how to give her the space she needs.
What are you doing tonight for GAL?
I am just struggling with how to give her the space she needs.
What are you doing tonight for GAL?
On Thursday nights, I have weekly quizzes for one of my classes, so I just got done studying for and submitting that. Now, I'm working on a submission for a contest hosted by a company my sister told me about where she makes some extra side income (graphic design is one of my hobbies, my sister is full-time).
W is off work the next two days and I already know she has no plans and will probably be home the entire time. I do NOT intend to do the same. I have already scouted out a mountain bike trail I plan to ride tomorrow and I have a Meetup event lined up for Saturday.
Yeah, but don't tell HER about it. You are not here to arm her with more information. If she wants to live alone, it is on her to figure things out.
No, don't worry I would never. But, it was a good point that showed me her hands are not tied and I don't need to feel like she doesn't have the option to leave.
Update:
Got up this morning to start my day and W got in the bed after I got up. She asked if I wanted to go shopping (a 1.5 hour drive we usually make about once a month to get stuff we need from an installation that actually has real stores). Told her I was going to the gym and then biking, but if she wanted to go afterward, sure. She agreed.
I felt great at the gym. I could literally the feel the empowerment increase with every rep. I acknowledged and owned that I am a strong, smart person who will be successful and happy in life with or without W. I was just there to do my workout and these thoughts came on their own. It felt good.
The rest of the day was overall good. W and I got the shopping done, had lunch together, and even stopped at some outlets on the way home and each got a new pair of shoes and some stuff for our dogs. The whole drive down she told me about every music festival lineup happening in this region of the world over the summer. Sort of confusing as I wasn't under the impression she would be wanting me to go with her to this kind of thing, but I just enjoyed the conversation and let it be. We had a great day, lots of laughs. It was also long and tiring, but not in a bad way.
On the drive home, something interesting happened. She spent most of it texting her friends and I had my thoughts to myself. Casually wondering how she has so much to say over text (I never have such long conversations with people), I had the thought that whether or not she was having an EA (again, I do not have any reason to think this is the case), it didn't really matter. By declaring she is leaving the relationship, she is effectively saying she wants to be in an A. She wants to see other people and live a different life. She is giving up on me and the life that entails. I didn't feel hurt, I felt anger. I thought back to her saying in "the talk" that she didn't have fun with me and I thought, B. S. We had fun today, I don't think even she would debate that. She might be bored, unsatisfied, whatever. And our marriage no doubt has issues. But I think she has lost a bit of my respect for how she has chosen to approach the problem, and today I let myself feel angry about it. I don't know if this is a step forward or back, but it's something different than what I've felt this past week.
She got a work assignment and will be gone for a few days next week. Seems the universe has granted us a little built-in time apart. She asked me TWICE today if I was okay with her going. I told her of course, I was happy for her because I know she loves these temporary duties and they don't come often. But, again confusing that she would ask my permission. She didn't mention anything about my thoughts or me leaving today despite ample opportunity. I think she has accepted that I don't intend to do go anywhere and it's on her to take action. I can't help but feel like things are slowly sliding back to being 'normal'. I guess this is a positive, but it also feels like limbo. I am taking one day at a time.
Tomorrow I go right back to GAL and working on myself.
How long did you know each other before moving in together?
How long did you know each other before moving in together?
We dated about a year before moving in together. We were not friends before we started dating.
Yes, like many of us you're in limbo. And it can last a longtime. Even years.
I will say anger is better than being pathetic and whiny. As long as you control it. I've confronted my wife about various things on and since BD. When I did it as a weepy wimp, she was obviously not attracted and had even an air of disrespect. When I found her online dating profile and confronted her with control anger she at least respected me. I don't think it was a coincidence that we had sex not too long after that.
On the drive home, something interesting happened. She spent most of it texting her friends and I had my thoughts to myself. Casually wondering how she has so much to say over text (I never have such long conversations with people), I had the thought that whether or not she was having an EA (again, I do not have any reason to think this is the case), it didn't really matter. By declaring she is leaving the relationship, she is effectively saying she wants to be in an A. She wants to see other people and live a different life. She is giving up on me and the life that entails. I didn't feel hurt, I felt anger. I thought back to her saying in "the talk" that she didn't have fun with me and I thought, B. S. We had fun today, I don't think even she would debate that. She might be bored, unsatisfied, whatever. And our marriage no doubt has issues. But I think she has lost a bit of my respect for how she has chosen to approach the problem, and today I let myself feel angry about it. I don't know if this is a step forward or back, but it's something different than what I've felt this past week.
This is something that I struggle with as well. The endless texts drive me up the wall, especially in the car - what am I? A chauffeur? Sure, part of me wonders if it's a sign of an affair. But a part of me is simply pissed off by how rude this is. I make small talk with my Ubber drivers, for God's sake!
I've also heard the whole "I don't have fun with you anymore," and it's B.S. in my case too. I think it's easier to leave when you pretend that you (1) never loved the other person, (2) never had good times together, (3) don't have fun around each other, and that (4) there is nothing positive in your marriage. This way, the WAS does not have to feel the pain of ending something. I personally believe that marriages where there has been no abuse, no affairs, and no lies are fundamentally good and salvageable marriages. Most people believe that deep down. WAS needs a reason, so, one is created and suddenly small fixable issues are blown out of proportion, good times are forgotten, and the LBS is the root of all WAS's problems.
So, your anger and your loss of respect are probably coming from this - from realizing how ridiculous and contrived the whole situation is.
I have no idea if this anger is helpful, but I too feel it.
This is something that I struggle with as well. The endless texts drive me up the wall, especially in the car - what am I? A chauffeur? Sure, part of me wonders if it's a sign of an affair. But a part of me is simply pissed off by how rude this is. I make small talk with my Ubber drivers, for God's sake!
EXACTLY this. After all the reading I've done and the circumstances of a 'sudden' decision to just give up, it's hard not to have any suspicions when there is such excessive texting. But, at the end of the day as I said in my previous post, I don't really care if there is an EA or not, it's an intentional decision to put your time and effort elsewhere while also agreeing to spend time with another and it's just plain rude.
I've also heard the whole "I don't have fun with you anymore," and it's B.S. in my case too. I think it's easier to leave when you pretend that you (1) never loved the other person, (2) never had good times together, (3) don't have fun around each other, and that (4) there is nothing positive in your marriage. This way, the WAS does not have to feel the pain of ending something. I personally believe that marriages where there has been no abuse, no affairs, and no lies are fundamentally good and salvageable marriages. Most people believe that deep down. WAS needs a reason, so, one is created and suddenly small fixable issues are blown out of proportion, good times are forgotten, and the LBS is the root of all WAS's problems.
So, your anger and your loss of respect are probably coming from this - from realizing how ridiculous and contrived the whole situation is.
I have no idea if this anger is helpful, but I too feel it.
What you said here validates so much of my thinking; it's spot on. While I don't believe our marriage has no issues and I don't believe in someone feeling unable to express they have a problem, there is just such a feeling of betrayal about the whole thing. Violating that core belief that both people are committed in good faith and barring a few major transgressions, they are going to keep fighting.
I too believe that marriages without those exceptions are fundamentally good and can be saved. To me, that's a big part of what marriage means. Anyway, I'm grateful to hear my same thoughts are internalized by another, but I am so sorry you have to feel it. Today was the hardest day yet for me, but I hope that means I am making progress. I really appreciate your support.
Yes, like many of us you're in limbo. And it can last a longtime. Even years.
I will say anger is better than being pathetic and whiny. As long as you control it. I've confronted my wife about various things on and since BD. When I did it as a weepy wimp, she was obviously not attracted and had even an air of disrespect. When I found her online dating profile and confronted her with control anger she at least respected me. I don't think it was a coincidence that we had sex not too long after that.
I am realizing the reality of how long the limbo can last and how much patience will be required. I'm ready to face that if I have to. This is really good feedback, now that I am feeling anger I have this uncertainty about whether she deserves it or if I should let her see any of it. I am going to try to avoid showing her anything, but if I have to I'm definitely going with controlled anger over pathetic weepiness. It cuts deep to think she doesn't care that I'm hurting, but I have to fight any urge to let my guard down.
Today was the hardest day yet for me, but I hope that means I am making progress. I really appreciate your support.
I'm sorry, man. Wanna share?
I'm sorry, man. Wanna share?
Sure, I just wasn't in the place to write last night. Yesterday some of our friends invited us to go have some beers and go to the movies in the city. W asked if I wanted to go and I said sure, I'll meet them there after my Meetup (which was fun btw). W immediately starts with a double-fist of large beers. Declines to order anything besides a side of fries even though she has eaten nothing that day (this is now about 3pm). We had about two hours to hang out before the movie and it was mostly fine, chatting with friends, but with W constantly making comments about drinking and getting back into "the old days", along with texting at the table even while people are talking to her! She orders another beer and two more to take into the movie.
About 5 minutes into the movie, she says she has to go to the bathroom and doesn't come back for about 20 minutes, at which point I have to go myself and I see her standing in the tunnel entrance on her phone. I ask her what she's doing on my way by and she says, "texting" with a goofy smile and I can tell she's drunk. I say in the friendliest tone I can muster, "maybe you should go watch the movie" and continue on my way. She does go back to her seat, but continues to text throughout the movie, make comments about how she can't sit there any longer and needs a cigarette, and literally chews all her nails off (she is not a nail-biter). I was horrified and embarrassed. She didn't even say goodbye to our friends when they went their separate way afterward.
When we got home, she tells me to "watch her babies" (we have three large dogs that are basically our kids) and that she's walking to hang out with a couple that live down the street. Now, I had a couple beers as well and this is where I slipped up for a second. I asked her why I couldn't come along, because I knew what was going to happen after she left and didn't want to face it. I could feel myself losing control of my emotions. I immediately kicked myself for asking. She said she wanted to go alone and this is what she explained to me before (referring to when she said she felt "disrespectful" to not invite me). I told her have a good time and she left. Sure enough, everything hit me like a ton of bricks. I broke down. All of the anger, all of the hurt, I felt it in full force.
There is something especially painful about going through one of the worst times of your life and not only not having your best friend to turn to, but knowing they're the one to cause your pain because they went back on their end of the pact. I feel for every person that has ever had to face divorce or even the threat of it. I don't believe that my wife doesn't care about me because deep down I know she does, but yesterday she was like a stranger. Her behavior is erratic and worrisome, especially the fact that she hasn't been eating.
The very first event that began this nightmare was two weeks ago when she wanted to go out with the kids she was working with (the same ones she is now texting constantly). This was before everything changed and she was her normal, loving self asking if I was sure I didn't mind and saying I was the best. I didn't want to go that night and I told her to have some fun and I was totally okay with it. I know she needs space and she doesn't go out much, so probably needed a night of fun. I trusted her 100% and didn't have a thought or clue I might be making a mistake. I thought I was doing the right thing, I mean how can she say I am suffocating when she goes out to clubs all night and comes home at 6 in the morning, and I don't have one thing to say about it?? The problem is that she wanted to go again the next night (which I was present for) and then in the same week, had to take her overnight trip to go party with the kids yet again (and still, I have no problem and tell her she should go, I'll drop her off and pick her up at the train station). I say kids because these are literally teenagers, who have been in the military for barely over one year. Little did I know she was going to come back and end our marriage. I have been nothing but gracious and trusting (something I have struggled to be in the past), and I feel like she threw it back in my face and made me a fool.
She had plenty of time to be crazy and have fun when she was 20, and she did. It's not like we're old now, we can still go out on occasion. But, she's 26 and married with responsibilities. I am downright pissed off that she has left me to be the one making sure everything doesn't fall into disarray. I dealt with the dogs last night while it stormed and they caused hell and she was gone. This morning, she can't even manage to walk five feet from the empty bin and get a new bag of dog food out of the closet. She says she doesn't have time, she'll feed them tonight, sorry. Just like she said she'll do the dishes and her own laundry. Well the dishes are still sitting there and the laundry baskets are overflowing.
At first, I was sympathetic to the fact she is unhappy and thought, she can't help it how she feels (or doesn't feel) about me. But, now I want to call her out for throwing every commitment she ever made out the window. And let her know that she's lost my respect. I know it won't be well-received, though, and her behavior is not sustainable. This is where patience becomes harder than it looks and I need to keep working and know that progress may not happen overnight. Being at peace with the fact that it may never happen is the hardest part.
Sooooo... yeaaaaah... This is not appropriate at all.
I will say this: I find that military lends itself nicely to a midlife crisis. You'd think 40, but you'd be wrong. These people start to feel old in their late 20's. If a servicemember joined later (like let's say early to mid 20's as opposed to at 18), it just makes it that much worse. My husband, who is turning 30 at the end of next month, believes that he is old and broken. Even lateraling over to officer corps did not change how he feels. Many of the other lieutenants are in their early 20s. He's not, and even though he is in a great physical shape and does not look a day over 25, deep down this eats at him. Our big relationship meltdown had to do with him believing that he will be too old to enjoy fatherhood if we wait until he is 34 to 36. Seriously. Now he suddenly does not want kids and, should I get pregnant, he'd want me to terminate the pregnancy. (Not that we've had any sex lately.)
I'd be lying if I said that I had answers to what to do about this. But maybe it gives you a better idea of what's going on.
All that said, you cannot allow her to embarrass you this way.
There is absolutely nothing that you can do about her behavior. You can either leave or you can let it run its course and see if you can forgive her at the end of it.
However, what she did the other night is 100% unacceptable. Please, continue to hang out with your mutual friends. Make plans with them. Make sure that those plans do not include her. A vague "I think she's going through some tough time and needs her space" should be enough of an explanation if anyone asks.
Now, if she asks whether she can come, the answer is no. If she simply tries to come along, let her know in your calmest tone that she is no longer welcome to accompany you when you go to see other people, especially people you both know, because the last time she went her behavior was mortifying and you will not be embarrassed like that again.
Keep letting her laundry and dishes pile.
If you were to discover that your W is having an EA/PA, would that be a deal breaker for you?
Before answering, I want to point out something. First, I am not here promoting divorce as the answer to marriage problems. Now with that said, I do find it disturbing that you and your W were newly weds when she started showing signs of losing interest & attraction for her H. When you see sudden changes (less talkative, distant, cooler, needed more privacy, less attentive, less interested, less sex, etc.) it can certainly suggest that there is a third party.....somewhere.
Some men stay in denial by making statements such as, "I've decided to believe/trust her". All cheaters lie. So, even if confronted, she may not be truthful.
She sounds as if she is a "caring" type of person who doesn't want to intentionally cause you pain. However, if she does not feel in love with you, I think she'll try to conceal what is really happening.....b/c she knows it will be hurtful. There may not be a third person, and she may feel she made a mistake in getting M too quickly.....and now, she doesn't know how to get out of it without hurting you. That would make sense, if she was hoping you'd be proactive in getting the D.
I hope you will wait a good while before even thinking of having children with her. At this point, both of you are still very young with many years ahead. I hope you won't have to spend your life convincing her she loves you.
Some young ladies have a lot of expectations of a MR. If the H or the relationship fails to deliver everything she dreamed, then resentment sets in.....and can lead to other issues. It may be a matter of her needing to grow up more. If you were my son, I would tell you think very carefully and examine your heart about how deeply you feel for a woman who wants out this soon after the wedding.
I will say this: I find that military lends itself nicely to a midlife crisis. You'd think 40, but you'd be wrong.
I think this is so true. I have met way too many members who joined straight out of high school because they didn't know what else to do and are now 10 years into their career and have no real fulfillment or direction. They have a lot of 'what if' regrets and their best days were probably in the beginning when they were young, getting a fresh full-time paycheck for the first time, and partying in the dorms with all their peers who were right there with them. This can definitely induce MLC-like symptoms at a premature age like late 20s.
A little background on my wife in particular, she definitely has a lot of 'what if' regret. She was a good student in high school and a basketball star. She had college scholarships lined up to play and she wanted to be a nurse. Then, in her senior year, something happened and she was no longer allowed to play basketball. She lost her scholarships and was in a very bad place. She pulled herself together and got a CNA and worked in a VA home for a year before she decided she wanted a refresh and joined the military at 19. Now, she has had a very successful career because she is smart, motivated, and really cares unlike a lot of said members who just do it because they have nothing else. She has a lot of passion and is very ambitious about wanting to be successful in life and do better than where she came from.
In the past couple years, she has been knocking out prerequisites to do a nursing commissioning program or, more recently, considering the military's PA program. I have been really supportive and think this is great, as I think education is really important. But, there is this constant sort of indecisiveness in her. She lost a lot confidence since her original plans went bust and I don't think she ever quite gained it back. She has a lot of regret about basketball because her career was cut short way too soon and she misses it and now feels old and like the ship has sailed (sadly probably true if she wanted to do anything serious with it).
I understand that once you have a full-time job and stability, it's hard to break that cycle and pursue something totally new. But, I know deep down she won't forgive herself if she never gets a degree or pursues her dream to work in healthcare. Just like how she still can't forgive herself now for screwing up her basketball career. The problem is knowing how hard to push her and when, because I think all of my talk and support in getting her to keep working and make it a reality has contributed to me being controlling. She has times where she is really motivated and on board and then phases where she doubts herself and normal work gets overwhelming and she feels she can't do it. I think now she might be at the point where she doesn't know if she wants to do it for herself or because I want her to and I present it as the 'right' decision. I know this is really bad and was never my intention, but it's a really good example of how I may have made her feel like she couldn't be her own person or make good decisions on her own. I am aware now of how much confidence building she needs and how she needs to feel like she got there on her own rather than with a big boost/push from me.
Anyway, I think a lot of this life stress has taken its toll and is definitely contributing to her 'crisis' right now. I don't want to absolve myself of blame or deny the marriage problems, but I certainly think it's a perfect storm type situation. Life is just complicated that way. I will continue to hang out with our friends and not allow her to embarrass me or herself. The scary thing is I don't know if she even thought her behavior was unacceptable. Luckily, I was much more aware of everything than our friends were, but I'm pretty sure they could tell she wasn't herself. I'm going to try and let it run it's course. It's very hard to refrain from doing my usual supporting activities because it's one of the only ways left that I feel I can show her love, since saying it out loud or any physical contact is out of the question. Silent, subtle actions that show I still care about making her life a little better/easier are all I've got.
If you were to discover that your W is having an EA/PA, would that be a deal breaker for you?
So, my answer is probably no. I can't say for sure since I don't think I can predict
exactly how I would feel and it would depend on the details of the situation. If I found out she has physically cheated on me, I would be very shocked and I don't know for sure if I could move past it. That said, I can tell you with nearly 100% confidence that there has not been any type of A going on for any length of time. I know there is one 'kid' in her new texting circle that she texts more than the others, to an excessive degree, but this has been happening for literally a week. Since she had her week of suddenly wanting to party with them, they left to go back to the states, and that is when the texting started. So if there is an EA, it has just recently developed. The hypothetical situation would be: She went out with them, something sparked with one of them, she decided she wanted the freedom to talk to and text whoever she wanted, it pushed her to decide just how unhappy she was in our marriage so she could end it and gain said freedom. I can also say if this was what is going on, it's ridiculous because she is not going to have a serious relationship with a teenager living on the other side of the world. I would be much more concerned with how quickly she decided to just give up and explore such illogical relationships.
She has not been consistently distant since we got married. It is a cycle. Majority of the time, things are fine (with the exception of the sex-life which has been a slow and steady downhill climb, and I am well aware this is a big exception/problem). But she is still affectionate, loving, supportive and 'close'. Then, she will suddenly have her moments of doubt. Make her vague comments about being unsure of me and her happiness. These have become more and more infrequent, but more and more serious. Last year was the first time she actually said she felt 'done' with trying. I told her things could change, and I really do believe there have been positive and lasting changes since then. Everything was on an uptick finally, I thought. There has been no discussion of major issues since then, until now. This is the worst 'bottom of the cycle' we have experienced (obviously it can't really get much worse).
It is much more likely than an A, that the answer lies in your comment about feeling that she got M too quickly. We both know and acknowledge that our relationship was rushed in the beginning. It's not like we met and got married in the same week, month, or even year; but as I said in my original post, military logistics probably pressured us to do it sooner rather than waiting. At the moment, she probably does feel like she wants to get out of it now without hurting me and doesn't know how.
I will definitely never have children with her unless things become drastically different/better than they are now. I am in no rush and I do not intend to ever bring kids into this world unless I am absolutely sure that to the best of my knowledge they will never have a broken home. It has been enough of a struggle for me in the past few years to not be absolutely sure of her feelings, just for myself. I can't wait around forever for her to make up her mind and keep going back and forth. I trusted in good faith that if she made the decision to marry me, she had finally let go of her doubts. But I realize now that was far too idealistic.
I feel like she has always kept one foot out the door, paralyzed to actually fully step in and close it. She has even explicitly told me that, after her previous relationship before me, she will never allow herself to feel that she needs someone that way again. I don't believe our marriage will ever be complete/healthy until this changes. I feel like I've offered her all my marbles and she's held a precious few of hers back. As I've mentioned to Olya, she has some major vulnerability issues. I love her with all my heart and if she can trust anyone in this world, it's me. It is heartbreaking to me that somehow this connection has failed to be made.
I very much relate to your statement that perhaps everything has not fufilled her wildest dreams and she has resentment. I think this is at least a piece of the pie. I am also unsure of my own expectations for marriage. I am not under the impression there will never be bad times, and that sometimes the choice to be committed is all that will get you through. But, I do feel like I should be able to have more security in her feelings than I do, and I agree with you that the fact these issues are rearing their head so early on is concerning. I really appreciate your sentiment and I will keep it in mind.
Do you ever think that you working on your Master's degree is making her feel insecure? You're living your dreams. She's helping you do it by paying the bills. What does she have at the end? Every now and again, she may get the idea that when you're done with school and working your dream job, you'll just go ahead and leave her for someone more like you.
I know that's how my husband felt, at least for a while. He may still feel this way.
Your wife might feel smart and experienced and sophisticated around these 18-year-old kids in a way that she does not feel around you.
Again, I don't know what the answer to any of this is. But it something to think about and maybe watch for.
Do you ever think that you working on your Master's degree is making her feel insecure?
Your wife might feel smart and experienced and sophisticated around these 18-year-old kids in a way that she does not feel around you.
All the time. I know she respects and admires me because I am smart, educated, and I aim high with my goals and values. Undoubtedly, these are things she desires in a partner. But, I also know that I often make her feel overshadowed simply by being me. She doesn't tell me how smart she thinks I am. But when I'm not around, she brags about to me everyone who will listen. While I'm flattered, this hurts me deeply for two reasons. One, I wish she would be willing to tell
me how much she thinks of me rather than just leave it unsaid and understood. There is a sort of 'competitiveness' that I don't really understand or think should be there. But, two, knowing that I contribute in any way to her feeling bad about herself just kills me. I don't want her to feel threatened or like she can't measure up. I think the world of her and accept her just as she is; the fact that she doesn't have the same educational background or opportunity that I did has no bearing on her intelligence or capability. Somehow, I have failed to build her up and let her truly feel that I think she is every bit as great as I do.
Part of it is her own internal struggle, too. She wants to aim high and achieve big things, and at times she feels that she can. Other times, I get the feeling she feels out of place and like she doesn't really have any business climbing that ladder. It's sort of exemplified in her behavior now, like she's saying screw it to quitting smoking, staying on budget, being responsible. She gets this attitude like "this is me, if you don't like it GTFO". But of course, that isn't who she wants to be.
I hadn't really considered whether she might feel resentful for paying the bills while I work toward my goals. I am very aware of it and make sure I do my part to support the household and take a lot of the daily stress off of her. But, it's actually frustrating because sometimes I feel like she forgets/doesn't care that I am a full time student. If she comes home and the house isn't perfect, she might question me what did I do today? She really doesn't cut me any slack or acknowledge that my assignment deadline might have been a little more pressing than vacuuming the couch. I have adjusted though, and I make sure that even if I have a very busy day, I take at least a half hour before she comes home to straighten up and do some obvious chores that will eliminate the thought that I just neglected the house.
I don't know whether she has any worry about me leaving her in the future. I would certainly hope not, but the logic makes sense. Going back to what I wrote to Sandi, though, I'm not even sure if this is something she would think about. I guess there's a chance she is more worried whether she will ever be able to get rid of me if she truly feels that trapped in the marriage.
I find it interesting that she doesn't make many allowances for your current situation, because she certainly seems to give herself a lot of allowances for why she doesn't go through with the steps to commission.
I'm in the opposite boat. I did force him to continue when he got cold feet. I believed it was for the best. Given the chance to go back, I'd do it all over again. He is better off and he is safer where he is today than where he was.
So, if you think about it, you didn't push and I did, but the outcome seems to be the same.
Some of it, I think, has to do with self-love and self-worth. I don't think that either of them believes that they can do better or that they deserve better. Maybe things can change with enough love, care, and understanding. I don't know.
So, if you think about it, you didn't push and I did, but the outcome seems to be the same.
This is interesting. I guess it makes me a feel a bit better like maybe it wouldn't have mattered either way. Ultimately, they are her goals and depend on her own motivation and confidence. If she can't find it in her to make them happen, no one else can do it for her and if they did, I can almost guarantee she would find some way to blame them and say she didn't really do it for herself. This is the main reason I haven't pushed any harder than I have.
Some of it, I think, has to do with self-love and self-worth. I don't think that either of them believes that they can do better or that they deserve better. Maybe things can change with enough love, care, and understanding. I don't know.
Bingo. I think you hit the nail on the head. I think this is a huge cause for their unhappiness. And having a partner who is happy with themselves, meeting goals, and being successful maybe just reminds them all the more. I don't really get it because in my mind, we are a team. If one of us wins, we both win and vice versa. I too feel like all I can give is love, care, and understanding. And I do. My patience is near endless, I can honestly say this is one of my greatest strengths. But I also realize we cannot save them. Again, they have to find a way to save themselves. I just hope I am at least offering a helping hand or supplying one extra tool to help the process along.
Update:
So, I might have screwed up, but I don't think I regret my choice (yet). After another night of incessant texting, and doing a lot of thinking and reading here, I decided to confront her about it last night. If there
is some sort of EA and it's directly related to this whole mess, I decided that's a boundary for me and there is no reason I should just sit around watching it happen and wondering. I was calm, respectful, and direct. I simply said, "I've noticed you've been texting a lot lately; is there someone that's more than just a friend?" She said, "Nope, just talking to friends." I said, "Okay I believe you. Not accusing you at all. But it would hurt me a lot more later on to find out you weren't honest with me, so I had to ask." Again, she affirmed it was just friends and that was that.
Well, it seems I unleashed an ogre (stealing your word, Olya). This morning, she was downright pissy. She
told me she was taking my car. Hers is leaking oil and "probably has none left". All of the sudden, she's decided it's undriveable. Remember, I told her about this problem last week and put more in for her. She said if it continued to leak she would take it in. Now, it seems to be my problem rather than hers. I said, well now I can't go to the gym. She blew up and said well then you tell me a solution right now because I have to go to work. I told her just go, she slammed the door and was gone.
She didn't come home til 9pm. Now technically she's on shift til midnight, but barring a mission coming down, she gets released at 6. There could have been something today, but there hasn't been one for a while. When she did come home, she did not acknowledge me or say hello. She told the dogs to shut up and immediately went to 'her room' and closed the door. Again, she eats nothing. The poor dogs have been waiting and watching for her all evening and she leaves them to cry at her door without so much as a hello/pet.
Maybe I shouldn't have said anything about the texting. But, I don't think I was in the wrong. I mean it's almost laughable! If she must hide in a closet and neglect all other areas of her life so that she can have her precious phone, then so be it. At least she knows it isn't going unnoticed and she can't play it off as normal anymore. I don't know whether she straight up lied or if she is justifying it to herself that her texting relationship isn't inappropriate. I could easily believe that there is nothing technically incriminating about the conversations. But if she can't sit through a 2hr movie or go to sleep until 5am because she
must type away, something is not right.
The only reason I may regret it is because now I've made her choose between me and the phone (we all know who wins that battle). She probably will no longer be content to spend any time with me and text at the same time. I just don't know how much I really feel that's my loss.
You only messed up if you think that you can get over her having an emotional affair. If not, then this is your boundary and it is only fair that she knows about it before she crosses it.
If she continues to act this way, just remain calm. If you feel you need to check her attitude, do it calmly and with dignity. The most satisfaction you can give an Ogre is to take the bait because now you're on morally equal ground and the Ogre has no reason to feel shame for her behavior. Or, better yet, will tell you that you are the insane one, you are the irrational one - this is why she cannot live with you. Do not take the bait.
Well, the regret has arrived and I really wish I hadn't said anything. I told myself I had a lot of good reasons, but really I just think I let my emotions get the better of me.
I drove W to work this morning so that I could have my car. She was slightly less of an ogre, but definitely not nice like she had been before. Then, she brought up me leaving again. "Have you thought anymore about taking a trip home?" I don't know what else I can say to this; she keeps saying 'trip' and that she's not kicking me out, but this is nonsensical. She says I need to have a plan, and she feels like if I just stay here and she's nice to me, I will just keep holding onto the thought that we will get back together. That I am just hoping she 'gets over it' and we can go back to how things were. Says she doesn't want to treat me like an a-hole, but she still feels suffocated and like she can't do things without inviting me, etc.
I told her I'm doing the best I can with a plan. I have a plan, she just doesn't like it. If I could go get a job immediately and support myself, things might be different. I told her I'm not holding onto hope and she can feel free to do whatever she wants (which I now realize was the biggest reason talking about the texting was a mistake). I reminded her that she is the one that wants the separation, not me, but she is trying to put it on me to solve that problem for her. This made her very frustrated and she went into work without responding.
I don't want her to feel like I'm fighting her. And I certainly don't want her to feel like I'm holding onto hope. But she hasn't given me any kind of specific plan or suggestion. She is waiting for me and thinks I'm dragging my feet on purpose. Well, yes, I don't want to leave my home and there is no easy, painless answer. But it feels awful to not be on good terms and definitely feels like that isn't going to be a positive for whatever outcome occurs. I know there will be setbacks and I can't be perfect, but at least we were friendly and she was fine spending time with me and she had backed off the talks about me leaving. Now I've screwed that up. I'm going to try and be patient and not force any big decision and hope her mood improves.
After another night of incessant texting, and doing a lot of thinking and reading here, I decided to confront her about it last night. If there is some sort of EA and it's directly related to this whole mess, I decided that's a boundary for me and there is no reason I should just sit around watching it happen and wondering.
I understand your intent. But confronting is a dangerous choice. If you go in like a wet noodle, like you did, then it doesnt really do...anything.
I was calm, respectful, and direct. I simply said, "I've noticed you've been texting a lot lately; is there someone that's more than just a friend?" She said, "Nope, just talking to friends." I said, "Okay I believe you. Not accusing you at all. But it would hurt me a lot more later on to find out you weren't honest with me, so I had to ask." Again, she affirmed it was just friends and that was that.
For example, you say this is a 'boundary for you', but what does that even mean? From what I see, you didnt actually state any boundaries. I dont see where you said what you will or wont accept. I dont see where you stated what your recourse is. All you did was, I guess, try to guilt her into something? Ive been there and done exactly the same thing, so Im not judging you.
Question - if she were having an EA, would she tell you?
Question 2 - do you think she cares how you feel about it?
You already know that whatever interaction she is having right now is inappropriate. You dont walk out of a movie several times to go text your friends. NOBODY is that attached to just random friends. So what was the new value in having this conversation?
To me, all it did was reinforce that you arent going to give her space while living together. How can you start to actually give her the space she is asking for?
She told me she was taking my car. Hers is leaking oil and "probably has none left". All of the sudden, she's decided it's undriveable. Remember, I told her about this problem last week and put more in for her. She said if it continued to leak she would take it in. Now, it seems to be my problem rather than hers. I said, well now I can't go to the gym. She blew up and said well then you tell me a solution right now because I have to go to work. I told her just go, she slammed the door and was gone.
So you told her about the problem, she did nothing, and now you are taking this on as your own? You really have to read Sandi's threads because now is a time when you need to exhibit incredible strength. She is going to push you as much as she can and if you show up as a noodly man like this, how can you ever gain back her respect? If she knows she can walk all over you, then why would anything ever change?
I told her I'm doing the best I can with a plan. I have a plan, she just doesn't like it. If I could go get a job immediately and support myself, things might be different. I told her I'm not holding onto hope and she can feel free to do whatever she wants (which I now realize was the biggest reason talking about the texting was a mistake). I reminded her that she is the one that wants the separation, not me, but she is trying to put it on me to solve that problem for her. This made her very frustrated and she went into work without responding.
44tries,
The reality of the situation is that she's lost respect for you. To her you're just a dependent wimpy guy and she's trying to unload you as fast as possible.
You should have a plan for yourself. She won't have to approve of the plan because it's your plan and it's for you. You should plan to get a job and support yourself on your own without her. Continue your education. Continue your growth as a person, and move on.
What you're currently doing isn't working and it's not going to work because you're swimming against the current.
All you did was, I guess, try to guilt her into something? Ive been there and done exactly the same thing, so Im not judging you.
You are completely right and I know I messed up. I should have known better and I was
so close to going down the right path, but the wrong voice on my shoulder won out. I convinced myself this was my way to not be a wet noodle by not sitting around letting it happen, but of course, I know, all the wrong things. I am just trying not to beat myself up about and feel like all hope is lost from one mistake. I learned and won't make it again, that's all I can take from it I guess.
Question - if she were having an EA, would she tell you?
Question 2 - do you think she cares how you feel about it?
So, part of the reason I even thought this mattered is because it is a direct piece of the story that she left out. I would have hoped that if her getting giddy about someone else was a major reason for her sudden decision to want out, she would have at least been honest about that. But I know we all hope this, and I know very well why she didn't have the guts to say it. Like I said too, I think she could also be justifying it to herself that the two things are separate. I do think she cares that it would be extra hurtful to me (especially because she knows I just went through all of this with my mom and W talked endlessly about how messed up it was that she waited til there was someone else to actually end things with my dad). That just makes it harder for her to admit what's really going on. I think she cares how I feel, but obviously not more than she cares about her fantasy bubble.
You already know that whatever interaction she is having right now is inappropriate. You dont walk out of a movie several times to go text your friends. NOBODY is that attached to just random friends. So what was the new value in having this conversation?
Nothing. Just me feeling helpless and talking myself into something stupid.
To me, all it did was reinforce that you arent going to give her space while living together. How can you start to actually give her the space she is asking for?
This is exactly what it accomplished, and now I am paying for it. If I want her to trust me that I can live here and she can truly do whatever she wants, it has to be 100% no questions asked and my non-pursuit and detachment has to be air-tight. She already has major doubts about my ability to do that and now I just gave her an action that trumped my words.
So you told her about the problem, she did nothing, and now you are taking this on as your own? You really have to read Sandi's threads because now is a time when you need to exhibit incredible strength. She is going to push you as much as she can and if you show up as a noodly man like this, how can you ever gain back her respect? If she knows she can walk all over you, then why would anything ever change?
This is an issue I am still much less clear on. I have read Sandi's threads and I will reread them again everyday. I do NOT want to be the noodly man. I know that I have lost her respect. But if I want my car and to not be literally imprisoned in this house, and she seems unwilling to address her own car problems, what do I do? Tell her she simply can't use my car? I asked her again this morning what she planned to do about her car problems and she asked
me if I had come up with a solution. I know this is her pushing. I just don't have an ultra clear map to follow on how to handle it. I want to 'exhibit incredible strength' and I know that I can, I just need to gain a clear understanding of what this entails and what it doesn't.
The reality of the situation is that she's lost respect for you. To her you're just a dependent wimpy guy and she's trying to unload you as fast as possible.
You should have a plan for yourself. She won't have to approve of the plan because it's your plan and it's for you. You should plan to get a job and support yourself on your own without her. Continue your education. Continue your growth as a person, and move on.
What you're currently doing isn't working and it's not going to work because you're swimming against the current.
Are you saying that you think I should move out? This is something I am still struggling with. I don't want her to force me out, but I don't want to stay for the wrong reasons and create bad blood at the same time. I need to figure out how to balance the fact that she has lost respect for me and also not be difficult. There is no perfect scenario, but I still think staying here is undoubtedly best for me logistically. Emotionally, maybe it isn't. I can get an emergency job here (currently in the works) and save some money and have a cushion to support myself while I search for a real one when I move back stateside. Otherwise, I would have to take a more permanent job that I don't really want (which would take time as well) or stay with family until I have the skills I need to get hired in my new field.
I am trying to stand up for myself by not just letting her push me into running home to mom and dad, but half the time I still wonder if staying is the right choice. You say what I am doing is swimming against the current, but I'm not exactly sure which "what I'm doing" you are referring to.
I know that I need to open the cage and take
all pressure off her. She needs to be truly free. The question is whether this is possible while I'm still physically here. She has her doubts. I think if I can air-tight my non-pursuit and detachment, it could be. But it will be harder and maybe the whole process speeds up if I'm gone.
Back to the respect issue, what I really want to know is what is the strongest action I can take that will make her have the most respect for me possible? This is the question I am asking myself and trying to answer. I think the answer will also be what is best for
me.
But if I want my car and to not be literally imprisoned in this house, and she seems unwilling to address her own car problems, what do I do?
Why is this
YOUR problem?
What would she do if you and your car were gone...?
Why is this YOUR problem?
What would she do if you and your car were gone...?
I don't think it is my problem, except that she has an expectation that she can drive my car and her need to do so (for work) trumps any need that I have. Now, she isn't unreasonable, like today she suggested I drive her to work so she doesn't need to take the car all day. Right after her declaration of separation, she made it a point to say she would no longer be driving my car and she would get all of her stuff out of it. It was one of her ways of showing me "this is real". Funny how a week later that becomes inconvenient and she tosses it out the window.
Your question is exactly mine! What would she do? I honestly think she has no idea. Unless she radically changed her habits and stepped up in a major way, her life would fall to shambles. One of her biggest concerns after the BD talk was that I was going to pack up and leave suddenly and leave her to fix the fence in the yard by herself! I'm not kidding, of all the possible consequences of wanting to end our marriage, that was the only one she directly voiced and addressed. This is why part of me has the urge to throw up my hands and say, here have your separation and your freedom. Live your single life that you think will be such paradise and you will realize just how much I do and take care of for you.
But, I actually think she already knows this. She doesn't need a wake up call. She has made her decision despite knowing she will lose a major support system. Rather, more to your point, I have to prevent her from taking advantage of that support system while I'm still here. I don't think she is really trying to take advantage. She
wants independence. But when it becomes inconvenient, her safety net is much too close and reliable.
My problem is that I'm too nice, I still love her, and I don't want conflict. I'm already kicking myself for confronting her about the texting, it really doesn't make me want to go confront her about being useless and not addressing her car problems. Similarly, if I just tell her sorry she can't drive my car anymore, not my problem, she will get mad and think I'm being spiteful. I don't know why this is so hard for me to wrap my head around. I see your point, I really do. And I want to be strong and gain respect. It just goes against all of my (apparently weakling) instincts and I'm clueless.
And I want to be strong and gain respect. It just goes against all of my (apparently weakling) instincts and I'm clueless.
Buckle up buttercup; what you're about to go through will either make you stronger or it'll break you. The cool thing is, you get to decide which way it goes.
Let me ask you something. If she kicked you out on the street tonight, what would you do? In other words, how would you take care of yourself?
Let me ask you something. If she kicked you out on the street tonight, what would you do? In other words, how would you take care of yourself?
In the immediate term, I would take my car and go to a hotel. Technically, she can't kick me out on the street, because as Olya pointed out, I can go to her command and exercise my rights. Now, I would probably think long and hard before going into a nasty battle like this. But if it truly came to the point where she was kicking me to the street and locking the door, I guess I wouldn't be afraid to get dirty. I would tell her she needed to figure out how to get all my stuff including car shipped ASAP and I wouldn't leave until everything I own or care about was out the door. I probably wouldn't muscle my way into staying in the house, but I'm no legal expert and I would make sure I wasn't doing anything to make myself vulnerable before physically leaving.
I'm not completely broke or anything so I'm not worried about keeping a roof over my head. I'm also not worried about her actually kicking me to the street. Even if worst comes to worst and we get a divorce, I really don't have a doubt that it would be amicable. I want to save my marriage, but I'm not crazy. If she got to that point and there was no turning back, I'm done and moving on.
Okay guys, I've swallowed the pill.
I have spent an unspeakable amount of time reading through these boards, especially success stories like Benito, joejoe1, Txhubby, etc. I've taken notes. I read and reread Sandi's rules and the detachment thread every day. I am ready to let go of my W and MR and focus on being the best DBer I can possibly be. I fully understand why this is the best chance my MR has for reconciliation, while simultaneously being the best thing for me regardless of outcome. I want to be the LBS who loses all the desperation and can objectively step back and say 'do I really even want my W back' if the day ever comes where she approaches me.
I know my determination will be tested and there will be times I don't feel as strong. But that's when I will keep coming back here and reading and posting and getting recentered. I am committed to kicking my codependency and Nice Guy Syndrome to the curb. It feels like an overwhelmingly huge task, but this is where I will use my 'I can do anything' attitude to my advantage.
It will be a slow race full of baby steps, but I won't let myself get off track. And I know if I keep posting here, you guys won't let me either. I am still waiting for DR to arrive in the mail; I really hope it gets here by tomorrow and I don't have to wait until next week.
I want to say again how much I appreciate this community and your support. The hardest thing for me throughout this process will be the fact that I am still living with my W and, despite her initiation to separate, she still doesn't want me off her hook. Every time I take a step back, she moves one closer. This just reinforces to me that letting go and detaching is the right way to go, but it is still HARD. Every day, I will face constant small challenges.
For example, yesterday I made myself a pre-workout smoothie as we both got ready for the day. Normally, I make a big one and give her half. Not this time. No reason I need to keep going out of my way for her. Well, she noticed. "Did you make a smoothie?" "Yes." "Is there some for me?" "No, sorry." (Why did I say sorry??) "It's cool, you obviously just didn't think about it." Counter-intuitive alarm bells are going off in my head. I've done the wrong thing and she thinks I didn't think about her. No, she is just uncomfortable with the fact that that is no longer part of my job description.
Her obsessive texting has decreased a bit, but so has my care. This weekend I have a few Meetup events and I will get some practice fielding her questions about where I go and what I do, and fighting the feeling that I am pushing her away. She invited me to a dinner she planned for Friday with a few of our friends. I will go, but I feel that I should start declining some of these invitations. As my own GAL ramps up, I hope this will become natural as schedule conflicts arise.
Hopefully, I am on the right track in trusting the "counter-intuitiveness" of the process. I feel that my W is still a lot more attached than she thinks she is or wants to be. It makes me cringe a bit to think that I am helping to sever whatever attachment she has left. But, I also think if we ever were to recon, we are much better off starting anew and building something different, stronger, and better. I would really appreciate some of your thoughts and affirmation that my thinking isn't flawed. I know there isn't just one way to DB and everybody's situation is different.
Good job, man! Proud of you.
I know that what you are doing is scary, but think of it this way: didn't it take a lot of emotional strength and bravery to trust and to commit? It did - many people are utterly incapable of doing it and spend all their lives jumping from one shallow relationship to the next.
So, you were brave then and you can be brave and strong again. You're just moving in the opposite direction.
You can do it and I believe in you.
I think that you are doing everything right. Just make sure you make time to go see a lawyer too.
Thanks, Olya! You are right, this is all just a reverse of the leap of faith I took to get into this relationship in the first place.
Tonight I had my usual weekly quiz and I couldn't take the ding of the texting blasting through the house. Whatever the hell she is doing on her phone, she certainly doesn't care about keeping it private. After I finished my work, I decided I wasn't staying in the house. I found a language exchange meetup and left within the hour. I followed Sandi's rules and tried to give as little info as possible. I tell W I'll be back in a few hours. But, this is sooo unusual it's hard for it to feel natural.
Of course she thinks it's weird and says so. She asks where I'm going and then asks if the girl that gave me a hug two weekends ago (the one she got jealous of) was going to be there! That girl was a completely random stranger I will never see again. I am insulted; no, I am not going out on a date or anything of the sort. Is this normal WAS response to GAL?? When I got home, she tried to ignore me and it lasted about ten seconds. She couldn't help herself. She asked if I had fun and then asked if the girl was there, AGAIN.
I guess that means it's working? I don't care; I had a great time, met people from all over the world, and was in such a healthier mental state by the time I was driving home. It is so nice to take a few hours and literally not have W cross my mind once. Olya, we should team up and get sponsored by Meetup.
I agree! They should pay us!
Now, you should be very careful right now. Ever wonder if her reaction is a projection?
Remember how my husband made an angry comment about me being gone all the time and coming home late? He was already in the throws of a full-blown EA with this girl.
Keep your guard up. Be polite. But do not get overly hopeful and watch her carefully.
Tonight I had my usual weekly quiz and I couldn't take the ding of the texting blasting through the house. Whatever the hell she is doing on her phone, she certainly doesn't care about keeping it private. After I finished my work, I decided I wasn't staying in the house. I found a language exchange meetup and left within the hour. I followed Sandi's rules and tried to give as little info as possible. I tell W I'll be back in a few hours. But, this is sooo unusual it's hard for it to feel natural.
YASSSSSSSSSSS.
Awesome. Keep this kind of thing up. There is NO rule that you need to sit around waiting for her. Live your life!
Of course she thinks it's weird and says so. She asks where I'm going and then asks if the girl that gave me a hug two weekends ago (the one she got jealous of) was going to be there! That girl was a completely random stranger I will never see again. I am insulted; no, I am not going out on a date or anything of the sort. Is this normal WAS response to GAL?? When I got home, she tried to ignore me and it lasted about ten seconds. She couldn't help herself. She asked if I had fun and then asked if the girl was there, AGAIN.
MWD says theres a few reactions. Curiosity, a turn around, or nothing. Seems like shes curious. Thats a good sign, I think. Theres no way to really know her underlying motives, but I think it is good for you no matter what.
Keep. It. Up.
She invited me to a dinner she planned for Friday with a few of our friends. I will go, but I feel that I should start declining some of these invitations. As my own GAL ramps up, I hope this will become natural as schedule conflicts arise.
Remember one of her concerns/troubles was feeling like she HAS to invite you if she is doing something because you are living together or whatever. I would say if you start declining these invitations, it will be good for both of you. It shows that you are actually listening and giving her that space. Plus, that gives you more opportunity for awesome GAL! And ALSO remember the last time you went out with friends anyway.
Don't worry, Olya. Not letting my guard down anytime soon.
Thank you Amoafwl, for your encouragement. I am learning! I think I have internalized all of the logic of DB, now it's just a matter of forcing myself to apply it. It gets easier and easier and it feels good to know I'm making strides. Now you can feel free to smack me for whatever you need to in my update from the past couple days:
Friday dinner plans were cancelled because of uncertainty over W's work schedule. Instead, she moved the reservation to lunch and we went just the two of us. We had a great day; the restaurant was fantastic and one she had been wanting me to try for a while. It almost felt like a normal date. Best of all, she didn't text once during the whole outing! We went home in the evening and watched movies and ordered takeout (cooking has essentially stopped in this household due to W throwing up her hands at responsibility and my refusal to pick up the slack). Overall, I was feeling very positive and everything was very natural up until it was time for bed and we retreated to separate rooms.
Yesterday wasn't so great. I GAL'ed for the first half of the day and then W wanted my help with some yard work we had been neglecting. It was hard work and she made a lot of critical comments about how a lot of it was caused by me not finishing projects (okay, yeah like when I'm the only one that picks up dog poop because I need to mow the lawn and I sometimes leave the bags on the patio). I tried to validate her frustration, didn't argue, and took responsibility. But, this was one of those moments where I feel like I am "cowering down" and I'm not sure what to do about it (more of those to come). She also wanted to throw a bunch of stuff away that I could have repurposed, but I didn't fight it because I guess I don't care about doing any of that stuff now. It was hard to work through the comments about "when she moves out of the house" and other vague references to the fact that I will somehow be magically disappearing in the near future.
Then the day just got worse. She told me in the afternoon she "might be going out tonight". "Cool". She asks me if I'm going out tonight (she seems to understand I have a life now at least). "No, I'm not planning to." Well, she went to take a nap and asked me to wake her up at 8pm so she could get ready. I said okay and went about my business tackling my messy closet.
I woke her up and she came into the bedroom to get dressed and then basically told me she didn't want me to come with her, but she didn't have a DD. She said she didn't want to feel suffocated and was worried the more we hang out the more frustrated she will get. I was pretty insulted, but this is par for the course at this point; I just said no problem I won't come (not that I was ever planning to). "Well then I guess I have to take a taxi..." Now, the taxi costs around $120. She had no real intention of taking it. I told her, "I guess these are just the choices you are going to have to make." Looks like her independence was becoming inconvenient again. She grudgingly told me I could come. What an honor.
So, I went. I know, and I knew, that this was the wrong move, but this was a DB battle I just flat out lost. The night was fine and I essentially tried to make myself invisible and not bother her (O don't worry I'm well aware of the pathetic-ness of that statement). She said she had a good time and thanked me for driving. But, man I want my balls back! What was I supposed to do? She had already gotten the intel that I was available, so I couldn't lie and say I was busy. Is flat out refusal the best option?
I am continually faced with these moments where she is just so expectant. I will be sitting in the office working, while she is upstairs, and she will call down something like "can you bring me my iPad from the kitchen?" Uh, sure, I guess I can stop what I'm doing, get up, and fetch your things, when you are just as capable. She has always made these type of requests and before I never really minded (maybe this is part of the problem?). But now, I can't understand how she thinks it is still acceptable. Do I need to sit down and have a specific talk about it? Clearly I need to learn how to say no, but for some reason it is easier said than done. It is already so ingrained in the status quo.
Overall, I still have a lot of work to do. But I'm not letting the bad days discourage me.
Small update on her texting/EA/"just talking to friends" situation. She has greatly reduced the amount of texting she does during the day. However, I am rather concerned/horrified to find that she texts all night! (Remember they are on very different time zones). This is the extent of "snooping" I have done if you even want to call it that. But, and I'm not sure if she has thought about this, it is very easy to see when she is online or when she was last. The past few nights, I have woken up at various odd hours (probably subconsciously thinking about it) and can see that she is online or has been recently. I am baffled as to how she even sleeps. I'm talking 3am, 4am, 5am, etc. Something is definitely not right. Part of me wonders if this is why she insisted on sleeping in separate rooms. But, I'm trying not to get too hung up on it; I am letting go and have no reason to care. I don't think it's sustainable and it will likely run its course anyway.
My dear friend... your wife is having an affair. AND she is cake eating too. I finally understood what that means. Cake eating doesn't mean that the spouse is seriously hiding an affair and leading a double life. It means that the spouse wants to have complete freedom while retaining all of the support that LBS used to offer. (Except for sex. We're staff now.)
It almost felt like a normal date. Best of all, she didn't text once during the whole outing! We went home in the evening and watched movies and ordered takeout (cooking has essentially stopped in this household due to W throwing up her hands at responsibility and my refusal to pick up the slack). Overall, I was feeling very positive and everything was very natural up until it was time for bed and we retreated to separate rooms.
Sooo, this means there was trouble in paradise. Either they had a squabble or he was unavailable for a while. Your wife seems to be looking for a landing pad. She does not want to be alone. Alone leads to thoughts and feelings about oneself. I don't think your wife can handle that.
I will tell you this: she will only leave you if things work out with him. If not, then she will stay with you until she meets someone new and the cycle will start again.
You want her to admit to the affair and to make a choice to break it off and stay with you. You cannot make her do it. However, that is what you should be looking for.
Yesterday wasn't so great. I GAL'ed for the first half of the day and then W wanted my help with some yard work we had been neglecting. It was hard work and she made a lot of critical comments about how a lot of it was caused by me not finishing projects (okay, yeah like when I'm the only one that picks up dog poop because I need to mow the lawn and I sometimes leave the bags on the patio). I tried to validate her frustration, didn't argue, and took responsibility. But, this was one of those moments where I feel like I am "cowering down" and I'm not sure what to do about it (more of those to come). She also wanted to throw a bunch of stuff away that I could have repurposed, but I didn't fight it because I guess I don't care about doing any of that stuff now. It was hard to work through the comments about "when she moves out of the house" and other vague references to the fact that I will somehow be magically disappearing in the near future.
Don't you think that you validate her a little too much? Start telling her that you are busy.
Six days before I found out about the little whore my husband was complaining that I should be getting repairs done on the undercarriage of his car.
I told him that I was busy then and my answer will not change going forward. That car will not be serviceable by the time he gets back. If he wants to be with his girlfriend, she can fly down here, she can drive his car once a month, change his oil, and take it to get repaired. So, in reality, by the time he gets back the engine will stop and the tires will rot.
You need to be busy too. There is a reasonable yard state that you need to maintain for your dogs. Anything more than that - you're busy. She can do it herself or she can get her texting buddy to do it.
Then the day just got worse. She told me in the afternoon she "might be going out tonight". "Cool". She asks me if I'm going out tonight (she seems to understand I have a life now at least). "No, I'm not planning to." Well, she went to take a nap and asked me to wake her up at 8pm so she could get ready. I said okay and went about my business tackling my messy closet.
No. You are not her maid. Start telling her to set an alarm.
So, I went. I know, and I knew, that this was the wrong move, but this was a DB battle I just flat out lost. The night was fine and I essentially tried to make myself invisible and not bother her (O don't worry I'm well aware of the pathetic-ness of that statement). She said she had a good time and thanked me for driving. But, man I want my balls back! What was I supposed to do? She had already gotten the intel that I was available, so I couldn't lie and say I was busy. Is flat out refusal the best option?
Why in God's name did you go!? Why? Your conversation should have ended at taxi. Learn to leave the room when you have made your point. Just walk away. If you're not busy, pretend you are. Done with your homework? Tell her you're working on the next assignment to get ahead because you have plans for next weekend.
I am continually faced with these moments where she is just so expectant. I will be sitting in the office working, while she is upstairs, and she will call down something like "can you bring me my iPad from the kitchen?" Uh, sure, I guess I can stop what I'm doing, get up, and fetch your things, when you are just as capable. She has always made these type of requests and before I never really minded (maybe this is part of the problem?). But now, I can't understand how she thinks it is still acceptable. Do I need to sit down and have a specific talk about it? Clearly I need to learn how to say no, but for some reason it is easier said than done. It is already so ingrained in the status quo.
Then yell down "are your legs broken or something!?"
You have to stop this. You are not her maid. Talk to a lawyer, learn about your rights and stop waiting on her hand and foot.
Overall, I still have a lot of work to do. But I'm not letting the bad days discourage me.
You're right. But you need to decide that you are done with acting this way. I hate the word "man up" and I do not believe in traditional gender roles. What I do believe is that no spouse should be reduced to the level of hired help. You need to grow a spine and that spine needs to stay there for the rest of your life. I'm not talking about growing hard - I'm talking about getting self-respect and knowing your worth and you, my friend, are worth more than this.
Small update on her texting/EA/"just talking to friends" situation. She has greatly reduced the amount of texting she does during the day. However, I am rather concerned/horrified to find that she texts all night! (Remember they are on very different time zones). This is the extent of "snooping" I have done if you even want to call it that. But, and I'm not sure if she has thought about this, it is very easy to see when she is online or when she was last. The past few nights, I have woken up at various odd hours (probably subconsciously thinking about it) and can see that she is online or has been recently. I am baffled as to how she even sleeps. I'm talking 3am, 4am, 5am, etc. Something is definitely not right. Part of me wonders if this is why she insisted on sleeping in separate rooms. But, I'm trying not to get too hung up on it; I am letting go and have no reason to care. I don't think it's sustainable and it will likely run its course anyway.
And this is why I tell you that it's an affair. It is also not a healthy attachment either. How is she supposed to perform at work?
It also seems to me like she is putting more into this relationship than he is or, at the very least, he is starting to create demands. They are now conforming to his time, not hers. And she's fine with it. I'm sorry, but I do think that she is obsessed with this man. Do I believe that it will fizzle out? Yeah. But it will take much longer than you might think.
She has clearly lost attraction for you, and you aren't doing much to get it back, that I can see in your post. First of all, who calls the shots about what projects you do and when they are suppose to be completed? Is she giving you assignments or specific work chores to be done in a day or week?
In some parts of your post, you sound as if you whining about the yard work (although you said you took responsibility (whatever that means). I know you are young and have a lot to learn about MR, and I hope you'll get some education here. I don't know what your W is seeing when she comes home every day. I don't know how many hours per day is used getting your Masters degree. But I will tell a little of what I do know. If the woman is bringing home the bacon while her H is home.......it would be in his favor to show that he is doing his share of the work. Many W's lose attraction for the stay at home H........even if he's working on his education. I'm not saying she should not have anything to do. There needs to be balance. Otherwise, she is going to lose attraction and gain a lot of resentment. It takes love and maturity to deal with this type of situation.
My suggestion is that you take care of the outside, including the dog poop, and take care of the upkeep of the car. Take care of your own clothes and picking up after yourself, etc. Don't let the dirty dishes pile up, make your bed up every day. I've learned if you do things as you go, it's not a big deal. It's letting it go till later that gets to be a time consuming job. Like, throwing clothes in the hamper or hanging them up.......instead of tossing them on a chair or whatever. Every morning, walk through the house with a container gathering papers or trash that need to be thrown away......or picking up items left out of place. Run a vacuum over the floors once a week. Leave her room alone. If you have separate bathrooms, leave hers alone and just clean yours. Unless the two of you are very messy, this should not be too much to handle, and you'd still have time to devote to your studies, wouldn't you? You could cook every other night, and she could cook or pay for take out.
. My point is that when she comes home from work, the only thing she should see undone is her own mess.
Before you can expect her to respect you, you have to make sure you are handling your end of responsibilities.......instead of blaming or waiting on her to do it. Then if she starts chewing on you, there's no cowering down from you or acting as if she's your mother.
She had already gotten the intel that I was available, so I couldn't lie and say I was busy. Is flat out refusal the best option?
Yes, you have options that don't require you to lie. You can actually open your mouth and just say, "No".
I am continually faced with these moments where she is just so expectant. I will be sitting in the office working, while she is upstairs, and she will call down something like "can you bring me my iPad from the kitchen?" Uh, sure, I guess I can stop what I'm doing, get up, and fetch your things, when you are just as capable. She has always made these type of requests and before I never really minded (maybe this is part of the problem?). But now, I can't understand how she thinks it is still acceptable. Do I need to sit down and have a specific talk about it? Clearly I need to learn how to say no, but for some reason it is easier said than done. It is already so ingrained in the status quo.
It's called the nice guy syndrome. Read about it. And please read about male dominance in a MR.
This shows how little she is attracted to you, by treating you like a little boy. All you have to do is tell her you are not her errand boy. You aren't her butler or maid. You aren't her employee. You aren't the dog to play fetch with her. I guarantee you that if she was sexually attracted and respected you like a man......
everything would change. She'd be running up & down those stairs for
you. But as it is, she's giving orders and you act like a submissive child. Your lack of male dominance is killing this MR.
But, and I'm not sure if she has thought about this, it is very easy to see when she is online or when she was last. The past few nights, I have woken up at various odd hours (probably subconsciously thinking about it) and can see that she is online or has been recently
So what? If you can't even open your mouth to tell the woman that you won't run up & down the stairs.........what are you going to do about her texting some other guy? Nothing, that's what! Furthermore, she
knows you'll do nothing.
First, do your research and read about male dominance in the MR. If you haven't read about NGS, get that also.
My dear friend... your wife is having an affair. AND she is cake eating too. I finally understood what that means. Cake eating doesn't mean that the spouse is seriously hiding an affair and leading a double life. It means that the spouse wants to have complete freedom while retaining all of the support that LBS used to offer. (Except for sex. We're staff now.)
This is the main reason I struggled so much with whether I should stay in the house or leave. She wanted me to go, which would have eliminated most of her cake eating. I understand I should be able to remain in my home, and still prevent her from cake eating, but obviously it is much harder than if I just left. But, I'm working on it.
Sooo, this means there was trouble in paradise. Either they had a squabble or he was unavailable for a while. Your wife seems to be looking for a landing pad. She does not want to be alone. Alone leads to thoughts and feelings about oneself. I don't think your wife can handle that.
Spot on with this. Well, at least the part about her not being able to handle her own thoughts and feelings about herself. I know she doesn't know what she wants, is unhappy (which is not because of me despite her blame), and has no real direction. But she isn't dealing with it properly and is instead assuaging it with distraction. Ironically, she talks endlessly of wanting to be alone. She claims her paradise is living on an island by herself with her dogs. I don't know why she insists on convincing herself of this when it is so clearly untrue. She feels such pressure and obligation from everyone around her; she would be much better off working through her own codependency issues.
I will tell you this: she will only leave you if things work out with him. If not, then she will stay with you until she meets someone new and the cycle will start again.
I believe this. However, she tried to leave me before she could possibly know that. The thing that puzzles me is how or even
if she actually thinks things could work with him. I mean it's almost impossible. Forget the age difference (does she know it will be two years before he can even go to a bar in the US?? this fact continues to blow my mind), forget the long distance and time zone issue; even if they were to somehow get together physically at the same duty station (big if), they would not be allowed to have a relationship. It's fraternization; she is an NCO, he is literally at the bottom. They work in the same career field. It's a no-go and she is a stickler for the rules, especially when it comes to her career.
I have no idea the extent of their "relationship" or if it even exists outside of her head.
You want her to admit to the affair and to make a choice to break it off and stay with you. You cannot make her do it. However, that is what you should be looking for.
Completely agree with this. I assume my best chances of making this happen are with DBing. I want her to make the conscious choice to choose me, rather than have it fizzle out and she just come back to her comfort zone. Like you said, the cycle will just repeat and I do not want to be along for that ride.
Don't you think that you validate her a little too much? Start telling her that you are busy.
Everything I read always talks endlessly about the importance of validation. I guess this isn't as applicable at this stage? This is part of the big, confusing dichotomy for me. How do I follow all these steps to be a better husband, while also detaching and letting go of that role? Part of my focus to be better just for myself is to be a better listener, communicator, and validator. This will help me in any future relationship, but it feels really blurry trying to incorporate it with a lot of the other DB techniques.
You need to be busy too. There is a reasonable yard state that you need to maintain for your dogs. Anything more than that - you're busy. She can do it herself or she can get her texting buddy to do it.
I agree. The busier, the better.
Why in God's name did you go!? Why? Your conversation should have ended at taxi. Learn to leave the room when you have made your point. Just walk away. If you're not busy, pretend you are. Done with your homework? Tell her you're working on the next assignment to get ahead because you have plans for next weekend.
I know, I totally failed. But next time I won't get caught in the same corner.
You're right. But you need to decide that you are done with acting this way. I hate the word "man up" and I do not believe in traditional gender roles. What I do believe is that no spouse should be reduced to the level of hired help. You need to grow a spine and that spine needs to stay there for the rest of your life. I'm not talking about growing hard - I'm talking about getting self-respect and knowing your worth and you, my friend, are worth more than this.
I understand and think "man up" is appropriate in this case. I spent so long thinking that being a good husband meant being willing to do anything for my wife. Thinking of ways to make her life easier everyday, all that stuff. I think the biggest problem with this is when it isn't reciprocated. The scales tip and then just go further and further out of balance until all respect is lost.
And this is why I tell you that it's an affair. It is also not a healthy attachment either. How is she supposed to perform at work?
Agree, wholeheartedly. It's irresponsible and horrifying. Definitely not healthy or normal.
It also seems to me like she is putting more into this relationship than he is or, at the very least, he is starting to create demands. They are now conforming to his time, not hers. And she's fine with it. I'm sorry, but I do think that she is obsessed with this man. Do I believe that it will fizzle out? Yeah. But it will take much longer than you might think.
I am so glad you said this, because I had very similar thoughts when I was mulling it over yesterday. Believe it or not, I have been down this road she is on (albeit, back when I was very young and
single). I met someone who was a lot older than me (very similar to W's situation but roles reversed) and became completely infatuated. She worked on ships and was always some different place in the world. I would stay up all hours texting her; anything to get my fix. The point is, I know firsthand the level of obsession required to keep this kind of behavior up. I tried to think it through and work out another possibility, but there just isn't one.
Now, the parallel to my situation is that I was the one who was staying up all night, just like my W. Like you said, it is very clear there is a one-sided dimension to whatever is going on. In my case, the girl never had any intention of having any kind of real relationship with me. I was a toy, more or less. I also don't really see how we could have kept it up if we didn't have a planned date where we would meet in person again, no matter what level of infatuation cloud I was on. The entire thing was fueled by the anticipation of when we would see each other. And, of course, once we did, it ended.
So, that's the confusing part about my W's situation. She may have some planned rendezvous, but I seriously have my doubts. Somehow, I wouldn't be surprised if the guy isn't wondering why the heck she keeps texting him so much (I'm being a bit hyperbolic here, obviously that isn't logical). But, I've met him many times, we've shared several meals and drinks. He's been to our house to hang out. He is fully aware my W is married and I never once got the vibe that he was interested. In fact, he was dating a local girl while he was here. He's just a kid wanting to live his life. Why would he want to get tangled up in this mess? The whole thing is just very bizarre.
You are probably right that I am too hopeful it will fizzle out sooner rather than later.
Spot on with this. Well, at least the part about her not being able to handle her own thoughts and feelings about herself. I know she doesn't know what she wants, is unhappy (which is not because of me despite her blame), and has no real direction. But she isn't dealing with it properly and is instead assuaging it with distraction. Ironically, she talks endlessly of wanting to be alone. She claims her paradise is living on an island by herself with her dogs. I don't know why she insists on convincing herself of this when it is so clearly untrue. She feels such pressure and obligation from everyone around her; she would be much better off working through her own codependency issues.
44, my wife said the same things! But as your sitch it was only after things ended with the OM. Her's was an online EA. The furthest it got was her sending him some nude pictures. My wife is an attractive woman, but she was 49. He was 42. And he had a girlfriend that was even younger than him. Once he got what he wanted from her, he gave her the old "I want to make things work with my girlfriend speech."
That is when the "it would be easier for everyone if I just died." and "I want to live all by myself on an island." talk started.
It is a phase. Either she will move on to OM2 (mine was headed that way), or she will finally wake up to her actions and want to work on the MR. Note, this is not an overnight change. My wife struggled with it for weeks. Some struggle with it for months or even years.
When she is ready to work on the R, MC might be able to help. You should be in IC regardless.
Everything I read always talks endlessly about the importance of validation. I guess this isn't as applicable at this stage? This is part of the big, confusing dichotomy for me. How do I follow all these steps to be a better husband, while also detaching and letting go of that role? Part of my focus to be better just for myself is to be a better listener, communicator, and validator. This will help me in any future relationship, but it feels really blurry trying to incorporate it with a lot of the other DB techniques.
I think Olya used the wrong word there. I think what she meant was that you seem to be bending over into a pretzel over and over to appease your W. Why are you continuing to do that?
She has clearly lost attraction for you, and you aren't doing much to get it back, that I can see in your post. First of all, who calls the shots about what projects you do and when they are suppose to be completed? Is she giving you assignments or specific work chores to be done in a day or week?
I am very clear that she has lost attraction, and I certainly want to change what I'm doing to work toward getting it back. She does not give me any assignments or projects. She is not very interested in most of them. She might say she wants the yard to look nice, but she will not give me any specifics. I take it upon myself to turn the dirt into a lawn, make a dog potty area, landscape etc. She only cares if I don't finish and leave a mess. And she is appreciative when I do complete something, but has never demanded it. Occasionally, she may ask me to complete a specific chore that needs done, but overall I would not say she gives me orders or timelines. She mostly only communicates about chores if she is disappointed I neglected something and if she ever does have a request, she is quick to offer help.
In some parts of your post, you sound as if you whining about the yard work (although you said you took responsibility (whatever that means). I know you are young and have a lot to learn about MR, and I hope you'll get some education here. I don't know what your W is seeing when she comes home every day. I don't know how many hours per day is used getting your Masters degree. But I will tell a little of what I do know. If the woman is bringing home the bacon while her H is home.......it would be in his favor to show that he is doing his share of the work. Many W's lose attraction for the stay at home H........even if he's working on his education. I'm not saying she should not have anything to do. There needs to be balance. Otherwise, she is going to lose attraction and gain a lot of resentment. It takes love and maturity to deal with this type of situation.
I wasn't intending to whine about yard work; I don't mind it at all. I have been frustrated in the past when I felt she doesn't even give it a thought. It is not my designated duty to pick up the dog poop, but I am the only one that does it. There are many things like this. But, I am fully aware of the fact that my responsibility is much higher than hers since she works full-time and I am home. So, for the most part, I have no complaints. The issues you bring up are very valid, and they were definitely applicable, especially when we first moved here. Before we moved, we both worked full-time and shared house duties. I fully acknowledged that I would do a lot more once that changed (I think we agreed on something like 70% to 30%), but it was an adjustment. At first, she was frustrated if she didn't feel I did enough. She didn't seem to care at all about my schoolwork or anything else I did, only house chores. Some resentment probably built up. But, I recognized this last year and stepped up. Everyday, I tidy the house before she comes home. With three big dogs, vacuuming has to happen daily, including the couch and the bed. The dishes are done and the kitchen clean, always. In fact, no one comes to our house without commenting how clean it is. I know my W has high expectations and standards, but at this point in time I really feel I have learned how to meet them. She very rarely complains or questions my household duties anymore. I am certainly not perfect and I guess there is always more to do and better ways to cut down on wasted time, but I sacrifice my personal stuff more than the house because I know how important it is to her. I want to reiterate that you are completely right, though, and this
used to be a big issue. Perhaps it could still be improved further.
Unless the two of you are very messy, this should not be too much to handle, and you'd still have time to devote to your studies, wouldn't you? You could cook every other night, and she could cook or pay for take out.
. My point is that when she comes home from work, the only thing she should see undone is her own mess.
Your suggestions are great, and also help me to navigate it now that we are "separated". It's hard when I feel like most of the chores are my responsibility, but I am also not supposed to be bending over backwards for her anymore. I like your idea of continuing to take care of everything except what is explicitly hers.
Before you can expect her to respect you, you have to make sure you are handling your end of responsibilities.......instead of blaming or waiting on her to do it. Then if she starts chewing on you, there's no cowering down from you or acting as if she's your mother.
This makes sense. Basically, no matter how well I think I am doing now, I need to just turn it up another notch. Truly leave nothing open for her to criticize.
Yes, you have options that don't require you to lie. You can actually open your mouth and just say, "No".
I will try this.
It's called the nice guy syndrome. Read about it. And please read about male dominance in a MR.
Along with DR, I got a book on NGS. Sooo relatable, you are definitely right, it is me. I will also read further on male dominance in a MR. I am fully on board with the fact that this is a major source of the problem, I just need to make sure I learn how to fix it.
This shows how little she is attracted to you, by treating you like a little boy. All you have to do is tell her you are not her errand boy. You aren't her butler or maid. You aren't her employee. You aren't the dog to play fetch with her. I guarantee you that if she was sexually attracted and respected you like a man......everything would change. She'd be running up & down those stairs for you. But as it is, she's giving orders and you act like a submissive child. Your lack of male dominance is killing this MR.
I'm glad to hear you say this, because it reinforces my thinking that everything would be different. The question is, do you think that it is possible to turn it around? Once she has lost respect and attraction, is it extremely difficult to get back even if I reestablish male dominance?
First, do your research and read about male dominance in the MR. If you haven't read about NGS, get that also.
I will get to reading. Even from what I already read, I know this a pattern that will not stop until I figure out how to change. These problems recur in all my relationships, it is definitely something I need to deal with.
44, my wife said the same things!
Wow, I guess it's comforting to know that is very normal. Funny how it's almost an exact quote.
It is a phase. Either she will move on to OM2 (mine was headed that way), or she will finally wake up to her actions and want to work on the MR. Note, this is not an overnight change. My wife struggled with it for weeks. Some struggle with it for months or even years.
When she is ready to work on the R, MC might be able to help. You should be in IC regardless.
Thank you, this is somewhat hopeful. I'm pretty sure my W has been in this phase before. She goes into her speeches about wanting to live on the island and then comes out of it. Before, however, there has never been an OM involved. What's worrisome for me is why she can't break out of the phase permanently. Maybe, like you said, some people just struggle with it for a long time and the phases I see are just mini-cycles of one big phase. My feeling is that when she does break out of it, we aren't doing the right things to fix the problem. Hopefully, if the chance comes, I will know what to do this time and we can get proper counseling.
44, my wife said the same things!
Wow, I guess it's comforting to know that is very normal. Funny how it's almost an exact quote.
It is a phase. Either she will move on to OM2 (mine was headed that way), or she will finally wake up to her actions and want to work on the MR. Note, this is not an overnight change. My wife struggled with it for weeks. Some struggle with it for months or even years.
When she is ready to work on the R, MC might be able to help. You should be in IC regardless.
Thank you, this is somewhat hopeful. I'm pretty sure my W has been in this phase before. She goes into her speeches about wanting to live on the island and then comes out of it. Before, however, there has never been an OM involved. What's worrisome for me is why she can't break out of the phase permanently. Maybe, like you said, some people just struggle with it for a long time and the phases I see are just mini-cycles of one big phase. My feeling is that when she does break out of it, we aren't doing the right things to fix the problem. Hopefully, if the chance comes, I will know what to do this time and we can get proper counseling.
I credit our counselor for breaking the cycle. If she is willing, get into MC. Like I said, you should be in IC anyway.
I think Olya used the wrong word there. I think what she meant was that you seem to be bending over into a pretzel over and over to appease your W. Why are you continuing to do that?
Well, it's certainly not out of desire to. The specific instance she was referencing (W frustrated with me for leaving a mess on the patio), I'm not sure that I was appeasing her. She was right, I left the mess, and that's what I told her. It wasn't a long discussion and I cleaned it up and that was that.
In general, though, I'm not denying the pretzeling is happening. Why? I guess old habits die hard and I need to keep working on detaching. The fear that I will upset her and compulsion to please her are still too strong.
Everything I read always talks endlessly about the importance of validation. I guess this isn't as applicable at this stage? This is part of the big, confusing dichotomy for me. How do I follow all these steps to be a better husband, while also detaching and letting go of that role? Part of my focus to be better just for myself is to be a better listener, communicator, and validator. This will help me in any future relationship, but it feels really blurry trying to incorporate it with a lot of the other DB techniques.
I think Olya used the wrong word there. I think what she meant was that you seem to be bending over into a pretzel over and over to appease your W. Why are you continuing to do that?
That is exactly what I meant. Thank you
I'm glad to hear you say this, because it reinforces my thinking that everything would be different. The question is, do you think that it is possible to turn it around? Once she has lost respect and attraction, is it extremely difficult to get back even if I reestablish male dominance?
Yes, it is very possible! Realistically, this may be the most challenging task you've ever taken........should you decide to do it. Changing a life long mindset is not as easy as it may sound. People
can change, if they want it badly enough, and if they work at it hard enough. You can
try to change simply as a ploy to keep your W from leaving you.....but it won't last. You can't change yourself to appease her. You have to change b/c this is not working for
you.
I encourage you to finish reading the book on nice guy syndrome. I hope you have the right one. I can't give the name and author, due to board policies. It's not one of those type books that tells men how to pick up more chicks. However, the H/man who has NGS, gets friend zoned (whether he's married, or not). It will describe how the nice guy thinks that being passive and nice will make his W (or other people in general) happy. I think it will show that men with the NGS somehow think being "nice" is equal to being submissive, passive, accomodating, apologetic, a pleaser, and basically a doormat.
Anyway, once you read the information, you can begin making changes.
Women want a H who is a good man. They want a nice man, but they don't want the type described in that book.
Quote:
Before you can expect her to respect you, you have to make sure you are handling your end of responsibilities.......instead of blaming or waiting on her to do it. Then if she starts chewing on you, there's no cowering down from you or acting as if she's your mother
.
This makes sense. Basically, no matter how well I think I am doing now, I need to just turn it up another notch. Truly leave nothing open for her to criticize.
Well......not exactly. Let me explain. If you go forward with the attitude that you will leave nothing open for her to criticize, you may find yourself becoming a slave to doing everything for her. In other words, you don't want to be focused on winning her approval. It will get you off track of the more important issues at stake. A man should not do all the work to where she has
nothing left to do. Some H's make this mistake, and end up with a W who has a big sense of entitlement. So, leave her bedroom and bathroom for her to clean. Leave her clothes to wash. If she's made a little mess in the house, you can pick it up when you are doing the general house chores. But if she's left a
big mess, or just continues to leave the same stuff out of place......then you might consider letting it set. The point is not to get childish about it. I see some H's act worse than little kids, b/c they don't stay balanced in their thinking on this stuff they are reading.
What I was trying to say previously, is to complete the tasks that you know are your responsibility. Don't
wait for her to
tell you, when you already know. That's what kids do. They wait for their mother to tell them to do it. Mothers are not sexually attracted to their children. And W's are not sexually attracted to a H they have to mother. Got it?
This 70%\30% responsibility doesn't work...,..I can tell ya. If done correctly, the chores that fall into your 70% should be designated, as should those that fall into her 30%. Otherwise, you risk getting into the blame game.......which apparently has already happened. The adult thing to do is to have an agreement about who does what.
To further explain what I meant in connection to your responsibilities, I refer to the day you planned GAL. So, she tells you she wants you to work in the yard. If you had left things scattered around the yard, due to not finishing your project or putting things away (whatever the situation), then telling her you'd do it some other time would have made you look irresponsible.....and kind of like a jerk. However, if the grass was cut and the yard looked acceptable, then you could have told her you were busy GAL (whatever you were doing at that time). The goal in this situation is to pull back your availability. Currently, she snaps her fingers and you do whatever she says. This is not attractive in men. In order to draw attraction, you have to stop acting like her child, and tell her you have made other plans. Don't make up some lie or excuse. Just simply tell her you don't want to work in the yard. (She will learn to ask you ahead of time, and not wait until you are GAL to ask). Bear in mind, however, you should not say it in a manner to sound like an a-hole. Know what I mean? Neither should you act apologetic.........b/c why should you feel sorry? Don't feel guilty (and she'll probably try to play the guilt card), but if you've handled your end of the responsibilities, then don't fall for the guilt card. Just politely tell her you aren't going to do yard work that afternoon. Don't argue with her. Don't feel you have to be accountable to her. You are a man, not a boy. You are her H, not her child.
Now, here is an example of what the guy with NGS usually does. He'll start out whining and say something like, "Well gee, honey, I really wanted to XYZ this afternoon, couldn't we do the yard work next week? I promise, I'll get through with the projects.........I'll make it up to you". (This is his way of asking her permission to have the time off). Okay, then she starts getting angry at him, so he feels like he has to save himself, and he comes up with some lie or excuse to get him off the hook. And, just to be on the safe side, he is extra nice and accommodating to her for the remaining evening/weekend. When she is cold or b'tchy, he just endures.......just like that old doormat where she wipes the dog poop off her shoes.
Your challenge will be in standing up to her and saying, "No", without giving pages of explanations, or a list of excuses/lies, and without being apologetic or feeling as if you have to be over accommodating. Your problem will be in knowing how to stay balanced. How do you show self-confidence and strength without looking like a jerk? How do you tell her you aren't going to stop your studying to go get something and run up the stairs, just b/c she asked? How do you tell her, "Um, you'll have to do it yourself, dear", instead of discussing it with her (like you previously asked us). There's no need to turn it into a big
discussion. See, you want to change things by talking about it. You talk it to death, but that needs to stop. If she's not dense, she'll catch on, don't you think? The key is to stay
consistent. The only time you should make an exception is when it really is necessary.......like if she is sick in bed or something.
H's in your position often try to score points with their W, b/c it's an old behavior pattern he's developed. He'll find himself in the doghouse.......and maybe he knows why, or maybe he doesn't. Either way, he figures his only out is to make as many brownie points with his W as possible. This is not a trait that places the H in a more respectable position in the MR, nor will it score attraction. If you are guilty of this behavior, your emotions may tell you to go that old route......but I hope you won't. During this time of reinventing yourself, you need to learn new behaviors and solutions, rather than falling back on old habits.
Another common behavior I see in many H with NGS, is over explaining himself to the W. He thinks his mission in life is to make/keep his W happy. Therefore, when he sees her getting upset with him, or suspects that she
will........he starts explaining himself out of a jam. He goes on & on & on. To her ears, he just sounds weak. It doesn't matter the excuses he gives.......
he sounds like the excuse to her. So, if you tend to over explain your mess ups, save your breath. Hold your chin up and go forth like a man! If you owe an apology, seriously, then give a very short, "I apologize", or "Sorry about that".....and that's all. Let it go and move on. No big productions, okay?
One more thing I want to leave with you. I'll see a H on the board who eagerly quotes something to his W that he got straight off someone's post. Hey, it sounded pretty cool to him and he thinks it's what his W needs to hear. But guess what? It does not impress her. She is immediately alerted to the fact he got it from a book or some other place, b/c it doesn't sound like something he would say.....or else, he uses it out of context and makes himself look like an idiot. In the first place, you don't want to quote something that will lead her straight to this board. In the second place, these tools are for you.....not her. You can't say it to her and think it will fix her.....or even impress her a wee bit.
Now, with that said, let me clarify that there are times we may suggest something specifically you could say to her in some particular situation.