Hello, I’m new here and thought I’d share my story. I am 32 and W is 34. We have been together for 16 years, married for 9. We are each others only serious relationship ever, and only sexual partners as well. We have never separated or discussed being apart before this. We have two children, D6 and S3. We have have been separated since the beginning of 2018, but still live in the same house. We are living in separate bedrooms, but share a bathroom. After work, we spend the day together with our children like we normally do, but when they go to bed we go our separate ways. Financially we can afford living separately, but we are trying to keep things as normal as possible for our kids for now.
I’m sure this is going to be tl;dr, but I’ll try my best. A lot has happened in three months.
Some highlights of the relationship:
6 years long distance relationship during college (undergrad & her grad school), we saw each other a couple times a month.
Married 1 year after she moved home.
We are both teachers, and worked together for 6 years in classrooms right next to each other. We work very well together, and this was a lot of fun for both of us. This stopped because we wanted to save more money for our kids college funds, so I went back to grad school for 2 years and took care of our S3. After graduating I got a job making double the money I made previously.
Our relationship slowed down after D6 was born. We joked that going to the school plays were our date night for the semester. When we did go out we had a great time. She rarely initiated sex, but we were intimate about once every two weeks. We still could be silly and laugh and have a good time and we’ve always been best friends, but the intimacy was leaving us. Whenever I brought it up in conversation she would have some reason. She was tired, or stressed, or worried about money, or finding a babysitter, or some other excuse and I believed her. We always had a great time at work or when we went out, she just seemed very tired and stressed at home. I really stepped it up at home and did all of the cooking, cleaning, shopping, etc. I thought if she’s so stressed and tired, I’ll do as much as I can to relieve that stress. She seemed to appreciate it, but she just threw herself more into work (she is a workaholic just like her dad).
I really started to notice a big change since the school year started in August. She was distant at home, but whenever I would go to her work she would be playful and smile and give me a big kiss and hold onto my arm like we were teenagers again. It was exhilarating because it was everything I wanted, but also was quite confusing because it was only at her work. She had become good friends with a coworker (he started there after I left, bug I’ve met him a number of times), and you can guess where this is going. I felt uncomfortable with their relationship, and this along with her lack of affection towards me, this led to a big argument in late December.
We had a very rough January. She wouldn’t talk to me or look at me. My wife said she was contemplating divorce. She gave the classic “I love you, but I’m not in love with you” speech, and said she fell out of love with me six years ago after our daughter was born because I pressured her for sex instead of being understanding after she gave birth. We had sex 4 months after she gave birth, and I don’t think I pressured her much beyond talking about it to see how she was feeling towards the idea. I brought it up about once a week after the 12 week mark, but I don’t ever remember trying to coerce her in any way. I feel like she has rewritten our history. Things weren’t perfect, but they weren’t nearly as bad as she is saying. She is also contradicting herself a lot. She even tried to say she was never in love with me before realizing how ridiculous that sounded.
She has said I am a great father and a good person, but she just doesn’t have those feelings for me anymore and hasn’t for a long time. She said she has been faking our relationship for the past six years, and she dreaded coming home every day because I was constantly pressuring for sex. She viewed my taking care of the cooking, cleaning, etc. as me trying to make her feel guilty so she would give me sex because she owed me. Again, I feel like this is rewriting history. She always appreciated my work around the house until she started talking to OM at her work. Until September, she always said that eating dinner together as a family was such an important part of her life growing up, and she loved that I cooked every night and provided a good meal on the table for our family.
She agreed to go to marriage counseling with a therapist recommended by a friend of ours. We met with the therapist once together, and then once each separately. The day before I went to my individual session I found proof of her EA. I confronted them both, separately. She said she had only just realized she had feelings for him a few days earlier, and nothing happened beyond holding hands and having dinner together. The texts and emails I read went back for months and they do corroborate her story. As far as I know, they have not had contact beyond running into each other in the hallways since (I have people at their work keeping watch for me). The night after I confronted my wife, she said she wanted a divorce. I said okay and we talked calmly about some of the logistics of divorcing. The next morning she said she had changed her mind and wasn’t sure. Then after work she came home as a completely different person. She was saying she was all in on staying in the marriage and she was bubbly and smiling, and it was all very forced. It was a very scary thing, and I don’t really know how to describe it, but I feared for her life. W is a very thin woman, and when she’s stressed or anxious she stops eating. She would sit on my lap and smile at me while shaking uncontrollably. For two days I couldn’t get her to snap out of it, so I threatened to call somebody to get her help (I’m not sure what I meant, but like I said I feared for her safety). I tried to be silly with her, and she said she had “killed silly because she had given it to him.” At this point I told her I had to leave, and if her silly side was gone forever then I didn’t want to be with her anymore. A few hours later I came home to find her huddled in bed with our kids because she was afraid I was going to take them. She had at least snapped out of her funk (I have no other words to describe it). She was down to a very dangerous weight and her clothes were hanging off her, and she later admitted that she was probably trying to slowly kill herself. She has suffered from bouts of depression in the past, but never like that and never suicidal in any way.
After this crazy incident she went to her individual therapy session, and the therapist said marriage counseling would be a bad idea at this point as she was in no way ready for that. She has been continuing individual therapy since, and she is trying to figure out who she is and what she wants/needs to make herself happy. She says she needs to focus on herself right now as she is not ready to be in a relationship with anybody. I agree with her and I have been focusing on myself as well. I have started working out again, going out with friends, and generally taking care of myself. I am continuing to be the best possible father I can be. W has stepped up around the house and is doing more with the kids as well. She’s never done much with the kids, and says she regrets that.
I desperately want to keep my family together. I love my wife with all my heart, and I don’t want to be a part-time father. I have forgiven her for the EA, but I will be dealing with that pain for awhile. I’ve been acting as if things are normal. Currently, W is unable to be herself around me, it is painfully obvious. There is no intimacy of any kind. She can handle being around me for a while, but gets weird after a couple hours. She says she feels like she’s leading me on.
I want what is best for my wife, and about a week ago we agreed that divorce would be in her best interest. The next day she was her old self again, and she texted me throughout the day and talked to me like the days before we were married. This continued for a few days, and she was even starting to show a bit of affection. I told her that I feel like I gave up on the M too soon and didn’t try hard enough. She said that I did everything that I could, but maybe she gave up too soon. We took the kids out to dinner the next night, and it went fantastic. The next day she pulled away from me again. She said she didn’t want to talk to me about it, but she was dealing with some stuff and wanted to talk to her therapist about it. She had her session last night, and she is clearly still processing and figuring out what she wants.
I’ve finished reading DR, and I’ve decided to detach. I’ve already been GAL, doing things with friends and going out and being the best version of me that I can be. Not for her, but for me. The detaching thing is going to be hard. Our kids are young, and I want to keep things as normal as possible for them. They don’t really know anything is going on other than us sleeping apart. I'm in this for the long haul, and understand this is a marathon. I know I will struggle with this because I want to protect my kids first and foremost, and I'll want to expedite the process when it is not the prudent thing to do. I guess I’ll journal a bit here to help me keep track of my progress. Sorry for the length of the post, and I appreciate any comments.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Update for tonight. W came home from work as the kids and I were eating dinner. She got herself some food and joined us, and we had a good conversation. After dinner she cleaned the dishes and went outside with the kids while I stayed in. They came in, the kids were bathed and put to bed. We talked about plans for Easter while brushing our teeth. I'm taking the kids to my parents and she's going to hers. I asked if she wanted me to bring the kids by her parents later in the day and she didn't know. She seemed bothered by something, and didn't want to think about it right then. It's hard to believe she doesn't want her family to see the kids on Easter, but I'm not really sure about anything she does these days. Now we're in our separate rooms relaxing.
Tomorrow I plan to take the kids to my best friends house to meet his new baby. We'll see how I sleep tonight. I haven't had more than 5 hours in 3 months (probably averaging 4), but I'm starting to get better.
MRay welcome to the board.
Other than our ages, your story sounds eerily similar to mine. Except that my wife had an online only EA. Still her waffling back and forth on the MR, staying or going, is just what my wife did.
Please read Cadet's links. I think you have the wrong idea of detachment. Many do. Read up on it as much as you can. Also look up "differentiation in marriage" on Google. Lots of good info about being a self-pleased individual rather than relying on anyone else for your happiness. That is really what detachment is.
The other piece of advice I will give is to have her do all of the work with the D. Don't hinder it, be helpful, but don't do any of the legwork. I heard this describe liked this. "If your divorcing spouse calls you and asks you to produce a document from the safe, answer: 'I am really busy, so I can't do that for you. But feel free to stop by anytime and get it.'" This keep the onus of the legwork for the D on them. Many WASs want the LBS to do most of the D work. As if the proclamation should set you into motion.
Pay special attention to Sandi's rules. Those are golden! What you seem to be dealing with here is a Wayward Wife. Sandi is very clear on the distinction between regular WAWs, and WWs.
One last piece of advice: Likely the EA in your case has become a PA, even if it isn't full blown (sleeping together). You need to come to grips with the fact that at a minimum the EA is still going, and at worst it is a full blown PA. None of that should change your behavior towards your W. Read the links Cadet sent. If you are looking some of the SMEs around here will take an interest in your sitch. Sandi and the rest are invaluable sources of information.
Thank you for the advice Steve. I've been following your sitch and see the similarities as well. Looking into differentiation in marriage us helping me get a better grasp on detachment, thanks for that. I don't plan on doing any of the legwork for divorce.
I know the EA is continuing at least on her side. A week or so after I confronted them she said angrily, "He won't talk to me anymore. I was finally happy!" Her distress over this was very real. She may be talking to him after the kids go to bed, but at least she isn't doing it in front of the kids and me anymore. She doesn't go out after work at all, and never has. The only chance it has to get physical is on campus, and if there is one thing she feels strong enough about to override the EA it's her work. She loves that school and her job. I think one big reason she wants to be friendly with me is that she's afraid I will burst her little bubble at school and tell everybody there. It's a Catholic school, and this would not be viewed positively and she is very image conscious there. I have no intention of doing this by the way.
I've read Sandi's rules (and plan to read them daily), and I'm trying to live by them. Thanks again for the comments.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Hi MRay, welcome to the forums! Sounds like this is more about your W than anything else (as it is in so many cases around here). The best thing you can do is pull back and give her time and space to sort things out. At least she's going to counseling, that's good! Do not expect a quick turnaround, she's on a long journey. Recon is a good possibility, but you're looking at many long months or even a year or more down the road. It takes a lot of patience.
I’ve been acting as if things are normal. Currently, W is unable to be herself around me, it is painfully obvious. There is no intimacy of any kind. She can handle being around me for a while, but gets weird after a couple hours. She says she feels like she’s leading me on.
Yup, very common. If she isn't yet, expect her to soon start clinging to the edge of the bed like you've got some nasty disease she doesn't want. She may even hover over the edge like magic, just to get a few more inches away from you. It's tough giving a WAS space when you're under the same roof but you have to. Try and get out of the house more. Encourage her to do the same. You've got to spend as little time together as possible. Interact with her as little as possible. Don't be cold or mean or anything, just give her space.
Good luck!
Hi, I wanted to give you a copy of a shorter version of DB detaching. I hope you'll read it. Newcomers often struggle with detaching, b/c they really don't take the time to read what it means.
I join Steve by encouraging you to read the links Cadet gave you.
*****************************************************************************
Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she "really is" rather than who I "want him/her to be."
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.
AS, the edge of the bed thing is sooooo true. My wife and I used to play fight about who the middle of the bed belonged to. At some point prior to bomb day she had moved so far to the edge of the bed that it was like she wasn't even in the bed!!
AS, the edge of the bed thing is sooooo true. My wife and I used to play fight about who the middle of the bed belonged to. At some point prior to bomb day she had moved so far to the edge of the bed that it was like she wasn't even in the bed!!
Mine too, I was in awe of her levitation skills!! It's funny now but at the time it really hurt. So strange to see the person that loved you and cuddled with you and couldn't get enough of you suddenly repulsed by you.
I wouldn't know about the hovering. Before BD she slept towards the middle of the bed, now W refuses to be in the same bed at all. We're sleeping in different rooms altogether.
Ah, she skipped right to that. My ex eased into it, said she needed to sleep with the kids "so they can get to sleep." So for a while it was sleeping with them half the week and spending the other half perched on the edge of our bed like those pennies in that arcade machine.
Anyway this is all very typical behavior for a WAS. Don't worry about it, there have plenty of sitches here where things were all that and worse and the couple ended up happily married again. It takes a lot of patience and hard work though.
So I think today was a good day. I went to S3's Easter party at school, and then took both kids to my parents for the day. I went to my best friend's house with D6 and met his new baby. W went to a movie after work, she says all by herself and I believe her. She asked my permission if she could go, which is kind of weird. I think she just isn't used to going out and doing things. I told her I was out of the house with the kids and she could do whatever she wanted. When I got home we tucked in the kids and she was all excited to tell me about her day and talk about the movie as I had already gone to see it myself. She asked if I had plans for the weekend, and I said I hadn't finalized anything but was considering going fishing at some point. She encouraged me to go while she watched the kids.
So I'm not sure what to do today. W woke up sick. I had planned to leave the kids with her and head out for a day of fishing, but she looks pretty bad and I don't want to leave the kids with her when she is in no place to run after two young children. Normally I'd take care of the kids and make some homemade soup to help her feel better, but I'm not sure that's the right thing to do.
Do I leave her with the kids while I GAL? Do I take care of the kids, but not make soup for her because she'd feel pressure? I'm just not sure anymore. I am usually decisive and go with what I think is right, but she typically perceives that as NGS, so I'm backing off.
This stuff makes you question everything. I've gone through the same thing. My advice: take care of the kids, and tell her to let you know if she needs or wants anything.
That way you're not pressuring her (making her soup whether she wants it or not), but she knows you'll provide if she wants it.
My wife hates when i presume she wants something, but likes to know I'll be there if she does want something.
So I'm not sure what to do today. W woke up sick. I had planned to leave the kids with her and head out for a day of fishing, but she looks pretty bad and I don't want to leave the kids with her when she is in no place to run after two young children. Normally I'd take care of the kids and make some homemade soup to help her feel better, but I'm not sure that's the right thing to do.
Do I leave her with the kids while I GAL? Do I take care of the kids, but not make soup for her because she'd feel pressure? I'm just not sure anymore. I am usually decisive and go with what I think is right, but she typically perceives that as NGS, so I'm backing off.
I agree with Steve, something like this is not a "pursuit" situation because you're just trying to help her out because she's sick. Offer to help her and make some soup, if she says no then offer to take the kids with you fishing (or take them with you somewhere else if they don't fish).
A lot of people think "detach" means that in a situation like this, you should just go fishing and leave her there with the kids to "suffer the consequence of her actions". Seriously though, what do they think their WAS is going to think about them? She will think they are a selfish tool and she is even more right to leave him! That is NOT detachment. That's just being rude and self-centered.
I assume your end goal is recon. When faced with situations like this ask yourself if your response gets you closer to your goal, or farther away.
Thanks for the responses and these make perfect sense and are in line with my thinking. She's resting while I'm taking care of the kids. I'm making the soup. I have to cook for us anyways, and our son is a bit under the weather as well, so it's not like I'm just making it for her.
Distance/pursuit is really the only major thing I did to get in this situation, so I'm a bit paranoid about pressuring/pursuing her. Especially when it's something I would have done before BD. It's amazing how your confidence is just destroyed by something like this.
Thanks for the responses and these make perfect sense and are in line with my thinking. She's resting while I'm taking care of the kids. I'm making the soup. I have to cook for us anyways, and our son is a bit under the weather as well, so it's not like I'm just making it for her.
Good. I'm sure she will appreciate it, don't expect it to change anything but in this case it was the right thing to do and above all you should always conduct yourself with dignity and honor so, perfect
Distance/pursuit is really the only major thing I did to get in this situation, so I'm a bit paranoid about pressuring/pursuing her. Especially when it's something I would have done before BD. It's amazing how your confidence is just destroyed by something like this.
Yeah BD makes us all question everything we do. Hey, that's what we're here for! We've all walked a mile (or 10) in your shoes and came out the other side, so who better to ask
Just remember that no one particular thing got you here and no one particular thing will make or break it now either. It's a long haul, just settle in and take a deep breath and keep your hope and faith!
The next morning she said she had changed her mind and wasn’t sure. Then after work she came home as a completely different person. She was saying she was all in on staying in the marriage and she was bubbly and smiling, and it was all very forced. It was a very scary thing, and I don’t really know how to describe it, but I feared for her life. W is a very thin woman, and when she’s stressed or anxious she stops eating. She would sit on my lap and smile at me while shaking uncontrollably. For two days I couldn’t get her to snap out of it, so I threatened to call somebody to get her help (I’m not sure what I meant, but like I said I feared for her safety). I tried to be silly with her, and she said she had “killed silly because she had given it to him.” At this point I told her I had to leave, and if her silly side was gone forever then I didn’t want to be with her anymore. A few hours later I came home to find her huddled in bed with our kids because she was afraid I was going to take them. She had at least snapped out of her funk (I have no other words to describe it). She was down to a very dangerous weight and her clothes were hanging off her, and she later admitted that she was probably trying to slowly kill herself. She has suffered from bouts of depression in the past, but never like that and never suicidal in any way.
This account is disturbing. Did you ever make a connection to what happened with OM and when she came home completely "changed"? Has she ever talked about it? It sounds as if she suffered something traumatic. Have you ever threatened to take the kids away from her?
Does any of her family suffer from any type mental illness? Please understand that I am asking out of concern for your W. It must have scared you to see her behavior......and the extreme weight loss.
I have several questions, if you don't mind answering them.
Are you seeing the same IC that your W is seeing?
Up until she had the first child, did she seem to enjoy sexual intercourse, or was it more the
affection she really wanted? Did she try to avoid sex
before D6 was born?
Waiting four months to approach your W about sex........is extremely
thoughtful, to say the least.......especially considering you were only 26! Did I read that correctly?
Did you notice change (better or worse) in her behavior when she got pregnant with the second child?
Has she ever gone to the doctor for depression?
Hi sandi, thanks for taking the time to read and comment on my sitch. I'll try to answer your questions as best I can.
This account is disturbing. Did you ever make a connection to what happened with OM and when she came home completely "changed"? Has she ever talked about it? It sounds as if she suffered something traumatic. Have you ever threatened to take the kids away from her?
I agree that it is disturbing. This was the day after I confronted OM. I know him a bit, and he is not a bad guy (did I really just type that?). I talked honestly with him, and made no threats. I really got a feel that he did not want to break up our family, and felt terrible about the whole thing. Or maybe he just realized he doesn't want a woman that's 8 years older than him with 2 kids and some serious issues. I forget the timing of it all, but at some point W was in distress and cried out, "He won't talk to me anymore" and "she was finally happy!" So to me it sounds like she lost what she had with OM, and it was traumatic. I think that sounds reasonable considering they were in constant contact for months (1000's of texts, he was in her classroom every day after school, they clocked out together, etc. how nobody noticed at school I have no idea. Her mom works there and I have friends all over that campus, and nobody said a thing.) This is all just guess work on my part though.
No, I have never threatened to take the kids from her in any way.
Does any of her family suffer from any type mental illness? Please understand that I am asking out of concern for your W. It must have scared you to see her behavior......and the extreme weight loss.
Nothing ever diagnosed, but one of her grandma's had some sort of mental illness but I'm pretty sure that was caused by substance abuse. She is just like her dad, and he is definitely depressed a lot of the time. She has said she is afraid of ending up like her parents, and she sees how sad her father is in his marriage and life.
As for her weight, she's always struggled with putting on weight. She has a fast metabolism, and can eat like a pig and not gain anything. So she will lose weight quickly once she stops eating. It's one of the biggest reasons I cook all the time, and started the trend of pursuing. I would nag her about eating when she was stressed. I felt I had to make sure she stayed healthy, when that is her issue to deal with. I think I'm realizing where some of my mistakes were made.
Are you seeing the same IC that your W is seeing?
No. Once the decision was made for her to see him for IC instead of MC, he said he couldn't see me as well as it would be a conflict of interest. The one time I did see him on my own he was pretty clearly leading me towards divorce being my best option. This is why I get nervous every time she goes to see him. The IC is doing great things for her personally. I've seen tremendous improvements in her, but I do fear he is pushing her to leave the marriage.
Up until she had the first child, did she seem to enjoy sexual intercourse, or was it more the affection she really wanted? Did she try to avoid sex before D6 was born?
She enjoyed sexual intercourse very much early in our relationship. W had a very conservative, Catholic upbringing. When her mom found her birth control pills she called W a whore and some other nasty things. She was 21 at the time, so this was quite ridiculous, but it had a big impact on W. She was never really the same sexually, but it was hard to judge being apart most of the time. Sexually things seemed healthy when she moved home after school, but more problems cropped up when we were engaged. Without telling me, she cut me off during the engagement. Naturally, I noticed. She said she didn't want to get pregnant before the wedding and this caused a lot of tension and eventually she gave in and we had sex. I shouldn't have pressed the issue, but I was 23 and we were finally near each other after 6 years of being apart and I was cut off without even being told. I see why I was angry, but a more mature me would have handled it better.
I don't remember her ever avoiding sex before D6, and we were always very affectionate before D6 even if we weren't having a lot of sex during a particularly stressful stretch. After D6, she rarely enjoyed sex. The affection wasn't there either.
Waiting four months to approach your W about sex........is extremely thoughtful, to say the least.......especially considering you were only 26! Did I read that correctly?
The birth was a fairly traumatic one with tearing and an episiotomy, and W also had multiple infections while trying to breastfeed. So I knew she was not up for sex when the doctor cleared her at the six week mark. I didn't bring it up until around the 10th-12th week mark, and we had sex at 16 weeks. W says that is the night she remembers falling out of love with me as she cried herself to sleep.
Did you notice change (better or worse) in her behavior when she got pregnant with the second child?
Nothing that stands out as out of the ordinary. She hated being pregnant both times, but seemed to handle it better the second time. Our sex life returned to normal much faster after the second time as well. She even had some fun with it because her breasts were so big (she's flat chested, and I think she enjoyed them as much as I did while they were around).
Has she ever gone to the doctor for depression?
Never, but her IC does not seem to be worried about depression or the scary 2-day whatever the heck that was. This is all relayed through her though.
An uneventful day today. W is still sick. I'm taking the kids to my parents for Easter tomorrow while W plans to go to her parents. It's just going to be the three of them, so that's kind of a sad Easter. I offered to bring the kids by in the afternoon, but she said no. W and kids are going on vacation next week out of town for 3 nights with her mom. She asked about my plans while they were gone since I'd be living the "bachelor life." I told her I'd be going out with friends one night and maybe catch a movie another. I made a joke along the lines of already living the bachelor life and her response was in a sad tone, "Well I mean without me dragging you down all the time." I'm not really sure what to make of that, and I don't think it really matters. I think I'm getting better at not hanging off of every word and having no expectations.
The birth was a fairly traumatic one with tearing and an episiotomy, and W also had multiple infections while trying to breastfeed. So I knew she was not up for sex when the doctor cleared her at the six week mark. I didn't bring it up until around the 10th-12th week mark, and we had sex at 16 weeks. W says that is the night she remembers falling out of love with me as she cried herself to sleep.
This is fairly common procedure, when giving birth. I'm not sure why it was so traumatic, unless she had nothing to help with the pain. Whatever happened.......I get the impression she fears getting pregnant again. If there is no birth control being practiced......then she might see abstaining as her only solution.
The experience with her mother is very unfortunate. I hope she has a mature woman in her life that she can talk to about her personal issues......or anything else. I think women need to have another woman to share their feelings and to seek wisdom. I am seeing a trend in our young women today that lead me to believe this is a very important link they are missing in their busy lives.
Getting M when you are very young, is quite challenging.......b/c both of you are still growing up. My H and I have changed so much that the couple we were on our wedding day is pretty much just a memory. We've been together for a long time. One of the things I discovered was the boy I wanted when I was 16.......was not the man I desired after I had more maturity under my belt. Couples will grow up together, or they'll grow up apart. The advice my grandmother gave me was, "You never reach a point you can stop working on your MR.......if you want to have a
good one". She was 16 when she M my grandfather and they had been M about 65 years when he passed away.
I said all of that, not to sound as if I don't take your problems seriously. In fact, I think they could be quite serious.......depending on whatever is going on with your W. I mainly wanted you to know that I understand what it is like to fall in love very young, have the long distant romance, get M and start a family with the only person you've known intimately. Life can be very hard on marriages, but in most cases, there is always hope that the couple's love will pull them back together.
Keep posting, and don't give up.
Hi Sandi, it's good to know that others understand the pain I am going through. Well, not good, I wouldn't wish this on anybody but it does help to hear from people that have been through this. I greatly appreciate your time and thoughts.
I have had a successful vasectomy, so there is little chance of becoming pregnant by me. She did say that she doesn't think she could have sex with any man for a long time (a fear of pregnancy would be only one of the issues here). I believe that she really does think this though I don't think it would take nearly as long as she does. She does not have any mature women to talk to. Her relationship with her mom is much better now, but she is only now starting to realize how to talk to her mom through IC. She is an extremely private person.
I definitely understand that we are different people than we used to be. However, I really don't think it's that we grew apart, but that could just be my inability to see this from an outside perspective. In W's own words, we are perfect for each other on paper. Our goals and values align. Intellectually, monetarily, parenting-wise, etc. we are very compatible. From MC and IC, my understanding is that she doesn't want to be intimate with me because she hasn't ever been able to forgive/forget many small grievances that added up over the past 16 years. Small things that shouldn't have been left to fester if we had healthy communication over the years. This isn't exclusive to our relationship. W has done this with most close relationships in her life including her mom and her sister. She has always been really close to her dad, but they are just alike and they don't really talk at all anymore because they are both going through these really unhappy phases in their lives. IC is really helping her explore her feelings and she is trying to reconnect with the important people in her life.
Basically, everything points to no serious issues between us that are not fixable. We have discussed our communication issues, and I think they will be solved. There is just a lack of emotional attraction to me on her part. I'm not trying to say the blame is 100% hers, you can't control your feelings. She does seem to legitimately feel guilty and tries to take 100% of the blame. Honestly I think she feels worse than I do a lot of the time. I don't want her pity though. I do believe that our problems stem mostly from her issues and circumstances beyond our control, and she is in agreement if I am to believe her.
So how do I move forward? How do I become a man she can be attracted to with our history? Am I just not her type anymore?
Well, the OM is basically a carbon copy of me in terms of personality and looks. He's just, in my opinion, an inferior version of me. What does he have that I don't? A clean slate (her words). So again, how do I move forward? I just be the best me that I can be. I haven't initiated R talk in over two weeks, and I don't plan on starting one anytime soon. I've done nothing but make her smile and laugh over the last few days. She'll be heading on vacation, and when she gets back I plan on being gone for the weekend on my own vacation. She says she hasn't missed me in a long time, so I'll give her a reason to miss me. What's different than how I used to be? I don't EXPECT her to miss me. Do I have hopes hidden down in my thoughts? Of course, I can't help it. But it's not the driving force for me going on vacation. I want to do something on my own for me. I never would have done this before. I would have stayed home and waited on W and helped her get the stuff out of her car and done the laundry and taken the kids so she could have relaxed in hopes that she would appreciate and love me. Now I am taking care of myself and allowing her to take care of herself, because I have confidence that she can. What I think is an example of healthy differentiation. This is a 180 for me, and we'll see how it goes.
The biggest problem is that she just doesn't ever see us being intimate again. When we first decided to divorce and all pressure was off we were instantly best friends again. It's my hope that detaching and removing all the pressure will allow her to regain these feelings for me. We'll see. I'll definitely keep posting, and I will never give up. We may not reconcile, and I may have to move on from this R some day, but I'll never give up on myself or my family.
I hope you'll take this the right way. I think a friendship is all you will have with her, unless there is a physiological breakthrough.........or her heart changes. It's not the friendship that has problems. She may or may not ever feel sexually attracted to you again. But that's not to say you are not a sexually attractive man. If she is holding onto old resentments.......
that could interfere with her desire. If she has an unrealistic idea of what marriage really is in the true world......then she'll think there should never be any issues, and that if she was really in love she wouldn't haven't to work at having a great relationship, and she would have all the wonderful feelings to match. Although this sounds emotionally immature, a lot of young women have these notions in their head.
I went for a long time not feeling desire for my H. I had an awful lot of resentment toward him, and I began feeling disrespect for him as a man and as my H. I don't know if those type of feelings affect a man's desire. Short term, I doubt they do, b/c I believe men and women are made differently in more ways than just physically. Feelings of resentment and disrespect toward her H, can kill the attraction and lower her desire to make love with him. Of course, a woman is affected by her level of hormones her entire life.......so, there's always a chance she needs a little help in that area.
Anyway, a W can't feel desire for the H she disrespects. Every time I tried to approach my H about my needs and the issues in our MR, his answer was to have more sex. It really turned me off, even more. I didn't care if we went for the rest of our lives not having sex! Actually, it was more complicated, b/c I started losing myself in romance novels.......b/c I had such an emotional desire that was not being met by my H that I started fantasizing about characters in a love story, an actor in a movie.....whatever to fill that empty void. When I allowed my fantasy to grow......I got colder toward my H.
I'm not saying your W has done the same thing. It just seems strange that it suddenly changed following the birth of the first child.......if things had been as great as you seem to think they were. Whatever her real issues are, I sincerely hope she gets help.
BTW, referring back to how she would get so cutesy with you in front of others.........that may have been b/c she wanted to present what she thought was the idea picture of the perfect, loving couple. My H once accused me of trying to turn him on when I knew he couldn't act on it.
In other words, it would be when we were in public or visiting in our parent's home, etc. I felt really insulted by his words. I had no desire to turn him on, b/c I didn't want sex with him......but I felt I could be more cutesy in front of others, without him pressuring me for sex.
Anyway, I have seen it played out thousands of times, right here on this board. The minute one spouse is through with the other one......the LBS has an intense desire for the spouse who wants out. Strange how that works, isn't it?
Sadly, I agree that a friendship is the most likely outcome for the exact reasons you have pointed out. She has built up resentment towards me that she can't let go and I think she has unrealistic expectations of a long term relationship. She thinks of me as family, and her family are the only people she's ever been close with for more than a couple years. She has built up resentment towards all of us.
And yes, she was trying to show the outside world a perfect marriage. That's what her whole life has been about: having the perfect life so she didn't disappoint her parents and all the sacrifices they made to give her this chance. She had a big checklist, and I fit the bill to check off the boxes. When describing it to me it sounded so clinical that I questioned if she ever was actually in love with me. She said she was truly in love with me at one point in time, but now she sees me like a brother. That one stung a bit.
I've always had an intense desire for her. That has never once gone away for me, and she knows it. So it's not like all of a sudden I'm showing stronger feelings for her than I ever have. I've always tried to show her my love. I've read the love languages book and honestly I feel like I was hitting them all. I don't know what her LL is and I don't think she could figure it out if she read the book either.
Anyways, thanks for the thoughts. I think I'm on the path to give us the best chance to reconnect, even if it's not the most likely outcome. I do want her to be happy. If I knew in the long run she would be happier without me, I'd file for divorce right now. I know I'll be fine, though I worry about our kids. I just believe, maybe naively, that her best chance for long term happiness is with me and our family. In the end I don't want her to stay with me if she doesn't want me. That's not fair to anybody.
Update time. This is mostly a motivational post trying to remind myself what I am supposed to be doing. W and kids are on vacation with MIL, and I haven't seen W or kids since Monday. Between her being sick and not being together on Easter and now this vacation, I haven't had much contact with W recently. No contact during the vacation except her texting they arrived safely and I responded with, "I hope everybody has a great time." They'll be back tomorrow, and I'm heading out of town myself to visit my sister and catch a baseball game. I'm hoping to leave the house before they get home, and I won't be home until late Saturday night or possibly Sunday so it will be almost a week with no contact.
Emotionally I've been pretty down this week. I throw a lot of my energy and GAL into my kids, and without them here I haven't been doing enough for myself. I've always done a lot with them, but I need to get better at doing things for me. I'm pretty introverted, and finding people I enjoy being with is difficult. I love teaching classrooms full of people (they're adults as I teach at a university), but it can leave me drained when it comes to my being able to tolerate people I don't want to be around. I need to just put myself out there and find some people with similar interests to my own. I have some ideas, I need to just suck it up and go do it.
I'm hoping W will have missed me at least a little bit after the week, but I know that's bad. I can't have any expectations of her. I don't plan on bringing up the time we've been apart beyond telling the kids I missed them and asking them all about their trip. Maybe I'll take them to the park and talk to them about it there so W doesn't think I'm trying to manipulate her in some way (I swear everything I do is some type of manipulation to her). I am determined to show W nothing but strength, happiness, and me enjoying my life and thriving. I know I can only really do that if I get out there and go do it!
Would like to hear from you. How are you doing?
Hi Sandi, thanks for caring. I'm doing okay. I really thought having the time away from W would help me keep this off my mind, but I failed miserably. I was doing good until we had that week or so of real friendship again where W was finally being herself around me. It just reminded me of how damn good we can be together. Since then she's pushed me further and further away, and I'm not handling it well. I made the mistake of asking her what's changed. She has said that it's not fair of her to ask me to be her friend. That she 100% wants to be my friend, but it's just not fair to ask that from me. I told her that I just want to interact with the real her, not some front that she's putting up, and I'll decide what is best and fair for me. She responded that everything will be fine on Monday because she'll go back to work and everything will be normal because work is normal. I said well why isn't home normal (stupid question)? What did I do to make you so sad at home (another more stupid question)? She loudly proclaimed, "What makes you think it's about you!" Then more calmly, "You've done nothing wrong. I don't want to hurt you. This is all on me." She's been pretty down since she went to her therapy session a couple weeks ago. I think IC told her that it is highly unlikely that we'll be able to stay close friends and that burst her bubble of having me as her best friend while she goes out and experiences new relationships. She also said she is back to where she doesn't know what she wants, but that when she figures it out she'd let me know (she was quite angry and sad when she said this). I know this means she wants it all and is trying to figure out how to get it.
I'm hanging on every word! I see it and I know I shouldn't, but I can't help myself. I've always been an over-analyzer. I dwell on the bad things happening in my life or the wrongs that I did that day. It's been my nature since I was 8 years old. I'm trying to change it. I'm just having a hard time convincing myself that detaching is different than not loving. I know it's not the same thing, but whenever I start to feel somewhat detached I panic and reach back for that strong, loving emotion that I've had for her for so long. Our old relationship is dead, I know that but I can't let it go. It's almost like an addiction.
I think something that's holding me back is that I know she has OM waiting in the wings. I have not snooped since I discovered the EA in early February. Mostly because I know I wouldn't find anything as W is very smart and could easily hide it. This is a boundary that I have set with her. If she is interacting with him in any way beyond what is required for work (which is very little), then I am done. She would be out of the house, and we would have no interaction beyond exchanging the kids. I completely believe she is not talking to OM behind my back. I know she has had some required minor dealings with him at work, but never alone. She volunteered this information to me. She doesn't go out with friends. She doesn't drink or party. If she didn't have him waiting, I think it would be a lot easier to let her go and let her realize what she is giving up. I know that I will leave giant shoes to fill, and she'll realize just what she has lost eventually. I think the limerence is truly blinding her. But again, this is all about her. I know I should be focusing on me! I know! I keep yelling at myself to focus on me! I can't (and don't want to) control her!
The biggest thing that is just killing me is D6 has definitely realized something is going on, and is feeling her world being ripped apart. She is doing things like drawing pictures of Mommy and Daddy together with hearts between us and giving it to me and wanting me to show it to W. I'm pretty sure she thinks it will help put us back together. She is also acting out a lot more than usual. She is very concerned that we are sleeping apart. I am an emotional guy, and I have been pretty good at staying strong in front of W. I don't think showing a little emotion is weakness, but when D6 is clearly hurting and worried it just kills me and makes me very angry.
So what about my GAL? Well I just got back from a trip out of town. W has IC session Wednesday evening, which is usually when I meet some friends for happy hour. So I'll be heading to a movie Thursday night instead. I missed a week of workouts, so I'm going to hit that hard and set some real goals now. I am currently 6' 180 lbs, and in high school I was quite the athlete at a healthy 215. My long term goal is to add 20 lbs of muscle to make it to 200. W is going to prom Saturday (required duty for many of the teachers, and I'm pretty sure OM will be there so that's fantastic). She's going to wear a dress I bought her before this whole mess started and she's going out with one of her friends (another female teacher that has to go that I am close with and trust) to get dinner and mani/pedi's beforehand. She's finally doing something for herself, something that I've always encouraged. W was recently looking at a photo of when we went to prom together and quietly asked herself where that boy had gone. She didn't know I was coming around the corner and heard her and I said he's right here. She was startled, smiled at me and said I know, but I don't know where that girl has gone. She looked pretty sad, and I told her that I was sure she'd find her again someday and become an even better version of herself. Back on topic, so I'm taking my kids out to dinner that night, which I'm trying to make a regular thing (S3 makes this quite difficult sometimes).
Basically, I oscillate between being angry with W for being so weak and doing this to our family and then remembering just how strong she can be and how great we are together and missing her. I know this is bad, and I need to make my own world and be happy in it. I cannot have my mood depend on my latest interactions with W. I know that I need to detach to save myself. I even think I know how to do that. I need to gather the strength and actually do it and stick with it. Knowing might be half the battle, but doing it seems to be the more difficult half for me.
Since then she's pushed me further and further away, and I'm not handling it well. I made the mistake of asking her what's changed. She has said that it's not fair of her to ask me to be her friend. That she 100% wants to be my friend, but it's just not fair to ask that from me. I told her that I just want to interact with the real her, not some front that she's putting up, and I'll decide what is best and fair for me.
I have to agree with her. It's not fair to ask you to be her friend. Although you think you want it, that's not actually all you want. You are feeling desperate, and sorry to say......it shows in your response to her. Here's the thing, the two of you would look at the friendship in different ways. You would always be hoping (and analyzing) that it was leading to something closer than just friends. She, on the other hand, thinks of you as her BFF and does not desire you as a H.
I'm hanging on every word! I see it and I know I shouldn't, but I can't help myself.
Yes, you can. (I'm saying this lovingly). You can change those actions. Don't confuse actions with emotions. It's your desire to hang onto every word and analyze everything.
I've always been an over-analyzer. I dwell on the bad things happening in my life or the wrongs that I did that day. It's been my nature since I was 8 years old. I'm trying to change it.
Okay, what are you doing to change it? You have to be proactive about it.
I'm just having a hard time convincing myself that detaching is different than not loving. I know it's not the same thing, but whenever I start to feel somewhat detached I panic and reach back for that strong, loving emotion that I've had for her for so long. Our old relationship is dead, I know that but I can't let it go. It's almost like an addiction.
The voice that says you can't help yourself, is the same voice that says detaching is not loving. I can't remember if you are seeing an IC, but it might be benefitical if you could have a few sessions to guide you through this process of letting go. You are actually experiencing fear whenever you consider the possibility of losing the relationship. You can't imagine.......or don't want to think of having a life without her in it.
I completely believe she is not talking to OM behind my back
From where I sit, this looks like denial. Just like you not wanting to snoop, b/c you are afraid of what you'll see. Your emotions had rather live in denial, then to be faced with the painful truth. If she has him waiting in the wing.........I'm pretty sure she'll make some type of contact with him, if nothing else, to keep him.
Basically, I oscillate between being angry with W for being so weak and doing this to our family and then remembering just how strong she can be and how great we are together and missing her. I know this is bad, and I need to make my own world and be happy in it. I cannot have my mood depend on my latest interactions with W. I know that I need to detach to save myself. I even think I know how to do that. I need to gather the strength and actually do it and stick with it. Knowing might be half the battle, but doing it seems to be the more difficult half for me.
Your feelings are normal. The two of you have been together a long time. I think you have a good chance at staying together........but whatever she's going through needs time. How long has she been in IC?
BTW, good job at GAL. Keep up the good work.
I agree with your analysis of the friendship. I don't just want to be her friend, and will not be happy with that. I have made that clear to her. I have said I just want our interactions to be real and authentic, whatever they are. A big problem has been her faking her way through the relationship, so I am very big on calling her out when she is being fake. I don't want her if it's not real.
I'll have to think about what I'm going to do to stop over-analyzing and dwelling on the bad stuff. I just started thinking about this, so I'll have to come up with some concrete ideas. And you're right about me not wanting to imagine a life without her. I've spend my entire adult life picturing what our lives would be like together. We are just getting to a point where our kids are in school and potty-trained (no more diapers!), we are financially stable, we have our careers set, and we could finally start focusing on us again. So it's hard to start imagining a new life when the old one was just getting to what was supposed to be a good part. And yes, I am afraid.
I'm not sure about the denial thing. I really don't think they are talking to each other. I trust my instincts, but denial is denial so I wouldn't really know. They do see each other on campus, that's not avoidable, so I know the feelings surge every time that happens.
I know it will take time. She's been in IC for 2 months now going every other week, and she needs a lot of work (my opinion, her opinion, and IC's opinion). I have thought about finding an IC for myself as well. I'll probably start looking later today.
Thank you for your thoughts. I greatly appreciate them. I have no friends that have been through this, and don't have anybody to discuss this with as I want to keep the path back as easy as possible. Your input is not falling on deaf ears (eyes).
I've been thinking about how to stop dwelling, and I have come up with a plan. Every day after the kids go to bed and W and I go to our separate rooms, I'm going to spend 5 minutes, and only 5 minutes, thinking about that day and what happened. After the 5 minutes are up I'll say something like, "oh well", and there is no more dwelling on what has happened. and get busy with some sort of project (basically me time stuff). I'm hoping that giving myself some brief, scheduled time to dwell on things will allow me to be free the rest of the day to throw that impulse aside and move past it without worry. I'm also hoping that eventually I'll stop wanting to think and analyze things before the 5 minutes are up. Thus shrinking this time eventually to nothing.
W has been pretty friendly and talkative the last couple evenings. We were playing with S3 last night and smiling and laughing together as the three of us played together. She says she is choosing to be happy. I'm taking that at face value and don't want to analyze it any further as that is a rabbit hole that won't help me at all. Her IC session was cancelled last night as the IC has the flu. It's been rescheduled for next week. I am continuing to GAL and focusing on myself. I don't think I've ever been so motivated in my workouts, and I've been connecting with my family a lot more recently. My sisters are 10+ years older than me, so I have never been really close with them, but I'm trying a lot more now.
I have a question I'd like some input on. I am as close to W's family as my own, if not closer. W says she doesn't mind me continuing doing things like taking the kids to see her grandparents or texting with her dad about the basketball game. She was going to visit her family a couple weekends ago and she invited me to come along (we used to go see them almost every weekend, but we haven't gone together since separating). I did and I had a great time playing games with them and the kids, and cooking dinner for everybody. W was clearly not having a good time. She laid on the couch sleeping/pouting. She said the next day she was depressed and didn't like faking that we are okay. Her parents know we are separated and considering D (they also know W is the one that wants this), so it's not like we were hiding anything or acting like we were together. I've decided I will not be around her family with her present even if she invites me to come along. What does everybody think about me still interacting with them at all?
Some background. Her grandparents are both very near the ends of their lives (major health problems), and W is avoiding her grandma so she doesn't take the kids to see them. The reason W is avoiding her is because they are very close, she thinks I am the greatest thing since sliced bread, and W doesn't want to disappoint her (she doesn't know about our problems). They love seeing their great grandkids, and I want my kids to have some memories of them before they are gone.
W has always been very close with her dad, but they have grown distant the last couple years. He views me as the son he never had (he has said this before, and he is not the type to share any feelings). Since he found out about our separation he hasn't said anything about it, but it has clearly upset him. He has been very friendly with me and we laugh and have a great time together, but he avoids W and doesn't talk to her much.
I don't want to use these people to try to influence my wife, but I can see it coming off that way. I see them as people that I am close to and will always have a relationship with because of my kids. Our families know each other. They live in the same small town away from us, and when I visit my parents I drive right past her parents and grandparents houses. It's natural to stop and let them see the kids for a while before making it out to my destination. My core values tell me to stop. So how would you suggest handling this?
My core values tell me to stop. So how would you suggest handling this?
why do you think you should stop? what is the reason? i wouldn't stop... just go about living your life... if it includes people from your W's side, just keep going until it becomes an issue... if she asks you to refrain, then respect that... if they begin to get in the middle, then pull away... but as of now, it seems like things are okay... and you kids ought to spend some time with their great grandparents... my parents are in their 90s, and they just adore all of their grand and great grandchildren...
i think it's wonderful that you are connecting with your own siblings... i am the youngest of seven... there is a 20-year difference between me and my oldest sister, and an 8-year difference between me and the second youngest, and all seven of us are very close... i love the relationships we all have with one another... we are the only people in the history of the world who can say we are the children of this Celestino and Priscilla Last Name... we have that in common with one another, and no one else can make that claim, and for us, we are honored...
mis dos centavos...
--artista
My core values tell me to stop. So how would you suggest handling this?
why do you think you should stop?
--artista
To be clear I meant stop at their house, not stop going there. I agree that I should go about living my life, and they are included, I just wanted to see what others think. Thanks for the input.
Seven siblings? I've got two older sisters, it was like having three moms. I couldn't imagine six older brothers and sisters.
I've decided I will not be around her family with her present even if she invites me to come along. What does everybody think about me still interacting with them at all?
Take the kids to see their great-grandmother, and their other grandparents. I don't encourage LBH's to attend family gatherings when the WW will be there. It is
her family, after all, and although they love you......it may cause some discomfort or awkwardness for her parents if both of you are there at the same time. I see this as you respecting them, to see them when she's not there. Those are just my thoughts about it, and speaking from experience of being the in-laws/grandparents in a similar situation.
Just understand that it won't score you any points with your WW. In fact, she'll likely resent it. But as long as you do not have ulterior motives.......which is kind of hard not to have when you visiting her parents.
Not much to update. It was just the kids and me Saturday night, so I got S3's hair cut, then we had dinner and watched a movie. Sunday I bought myself some new clothes, took myself out to lunch, got a haircut, took the kids to the park, and had a great day. W and I have been friendly. More like friendly roommates than actual friends.
W came home later than usual last night, and seemed really tired. S3 has been going to sleep with her in the middle of the night a lot recently. I used to be there to take him back to bed when he would try this, and she'd never know he was awake. Now she has to deal with him as I'm not there. I'm a very light sleeper, so I'd always wake up and deal with any issues with the kids and she usually wouldn't even know about them. Anyways, I told her what I made myself and the kids for dinner and she got herself some out of the fridge. I went to the kitchen to grab some water for S3 and noticed she was hunched over a bit and just seemed drained. I was behind her and rubbed her shoulders for a few seconds, and she didn't pull away in horror like she has every other time I've tried to touch her since BD. I don't know why I did it. I have been avoiding doing things like that recently, and plan to continue avoiding any physical contact. After this she was very upbeat in conversation and playing with the kids. She even insisted on helping me plan a lesson for one of my classes later this week (it's in her area of expertise, not mine). I don't initiate anything beyond talking about the kids or typical small talk between roommates.
Emotionally I was in a bad place Friday and Saturday, but didn't let her see that. I was just sad, especially after the movie Saturday. I turned that into anger that night and channeled it into a workout. Then Sunday I felt a lot better and I've been pretty even since. I feel like I've got a good attitude about life, and I'm learning how to channel my emotions better. I'm not saying I've successfully detached by any stretch of the imagination, but I feel like I'm making some strides. I'm starting to wonder why I would want to be with a woman that doesn't have the same values that I do anymore. I'm nowhere close to saying I don't want my M, but I definitely will need to see some positive work on her part if we are going to reconcile.
I turned that into anger that night and channeled it into a workout. Then Sunday I felt a lot better and I've been pretty even since.
I had to read this twice, b/c I thought you left out a word.......and I was going to tell you I needed to try those excerises if they make you pretty. Then, (duh) I read it again.
It's good to hear from you.
In-house separation is horrible, so continue to be your own best friend.
People who have been successful in surviving the wear & tear of a M in crisis, swear that GAL is a key ingredient. Glad you got you some new clothes.
I don't need special exercises to look pretty.
The above is an example of my changing attitude. When I was younger and originally attracted my wife I was a very confident, borderline cocky, person. I was 16, highly intelligent, and a star athlete, so of course I was. As I've aged (I'd say matured, but whatever), I've lost that cocky edge. Raising kids can do that to you. And grad school in my discipline can definitely humble you. I also noticed that I've developed some NGS. I've read a couple books on that and I'm putting an end to that. I don't want to be arrogant, but I do feel I need to get back that edge to get back to being me.
This isn't a change I want to make just for my wife, but it did just remind me of an interesting dynamic in all this. The OM does not have a confident edge to him at all. He's more like an even softer version of the nice guy version of me. Months ago when I first brought up my issues with their friendship she said something along the lines of "he wouldn't know what to do with me even if he could have me." W also pushed me to intimidate him whenever we were around each other, and she would make fun of him for being afraid of me. She both told me this and I read it in their texts months later. It's like she enjoyed emasculating OM at the time, and she would laugh about it at home. And now she's attracted to him? Just weird. I'm really not sure what to make of all that, but I do find it an interesting dynamic.
Looking back I know that it's part of her personality. She's a strong woman that has tried similar things with me, but I would respond by challenging her and showing her strength. Nothing close to violence or abuse, just playful stuff. This always attracted her in our good days and we would laugh, and good times would ensue. OM goes along with it and lets her dominate him and that's now attractive? Was she wanting to see me as a dominant male again? Or is she tired of having a dominant male challenge her authority and she wants a pushover to dominate? Who really knows? The best part of this analysis is I'm not really having an emotional response. I'm just curious.
Back to my original reason for posting. Yes, in-house separation is not fun. We are trying to minimize the effect on the kids while W "figures out what she wants." Emotionally it can be hell, but I'm learning to deal. I'm not sure if having the opportunity to show her the changes I am making is a good thing or a bad thing. It might be better to separate and have her learn just how good she had it with me. And seeing me only periodically might help her miss me. On the other hand she might start seeing that being with us isn't as bad as she has made it out to be in her head. I've taken as much pressure off her as I can while living together, but she puts a lot of pressure on herself. She lives a lot in her own head. I just don't know. I refuse to leave our home, and I don't think she would ever agree to leave either.
It's been a few days, so it's time for an update: it's still pretty much the same. W had IC last night, and I took the kids out to dinner. W is normally pretty tired on Fridays as they are very busy days. She is normally emotionally exhausted after IC, plus she hasn't been sleeping much with S3 going to sleep with her in the middle of the night the last 3 nights. I was expecting her to be exhausted when she got home, but she said she was feeling pretty good. Nothing beyond that. She makes a big show of telling the kids goodnight and goodbye and she loves them, and then purposely ignores me. Usually I'll tell her have a nice day or have a good night or something like that, with no expectation of it being returned. Unsure if I should continue that or just give her the silent treatment like she is giving me.
Thinking back I'm pretty sure she was temp-checking me last weekend, and I failed. She hasn't done any temp-checking throughout this sitch, so I was unprepared. We used to enjoy watching tv shows, reading books, etc. together and discussing what happened and trying to figure out what's going to happen next. All of this has stopped except for one show, but we hadn't watched in a few weeks. When the kids go take their naps or go to bed she immediately goes to her room. She never watches tv in the living room, but this time she put the next episode on in the living room while I was working out. She knew full well that I would come in from the garage and see her watching without me. She knew this would bother me as it's the last thing that we did together that doesn't involve our children. She looked at me when I came in, and immediately asked if I would like her to stop watching. I told her that I really would have liked to watch together so I don't fall behind, but if she wanted to watch she should go right ahead. I went back to my workout, and she decided to go back to her room and watch the show there. I should have left it at that. Feeling like I was losing the one thing we had left, I went back to her room and told her I'd actually like to watch together and I'd appreciate it if she'd give me 15 minutes or so to finish what I was doing and we could watch together. This led to her turning off the tv, getting angry, and initiating a fight about why she didn't understand why I'm always trying to start a fight. I didn't want to fight, so I told her you do what you want, and I walked away. She never went back to watch the show, she watched something else and made sure to let me know it by thanking me for prompting her to watch another show she had fallen behind on. Since then I've watched the episodes we had missed by myself and have told her they're really good and she should watch them. Long story short, she obviously temp-checked and I took the bait. I think I should have said you should watch whatever you want, and returned to the garage to finish my workout with a smile on my face.
In the future I'll be more prepared for this kind of thing. I've read a lot about temp-checking, but I hadn't experienced any of it yet as far as I know. I know I handled it poorly, but I just have to move on and do better in the future. I've continued to GAL, and I'm trying to make some friends at my new job. I've got a couple outings planned with these people next week. I'm looking forward to taking my kids to an amusement park in a few weeks. We're going with my parents, my sisters, and all my nieces and nephews so it should be a good time. I'm loving getting into my workouts. It's perfect. Watching my body transform week to week is a slow process just like dealing with my marriage, but at least I can see results and know that I control what is happening with my body. I still hate cardio, but I've got the best motivation I can have.
Seems like text is disappearing again, testing with small messages
My question was have you seen a L to understand your custody rights since BD? How involved has she been with the kids, has it reduced since the BD
Good you are GAL, does it make her angrier when you seem to be happy without her ? Or does it make her feel guilt free for putting you through this?
I have not seen a lawyer. We've discussed mediation, and that's the path we plan to take if it comes to it. Finances have not been split, we still pay bills and everything exactly the same as before. W has been doing more around the house and with the kids since BD, but still not as much as me. I'm just home with the kids more right now. When stressful times hit she has always focused on work and used that as her escape, and this is no different.
We've discussed joint custody and some of the logistics. With my job the exact days and times we would split would change every 4-5 months. She'll also have random evenings to work, so we both will need a lot of cooperation from the other and I don't think it will be a problem.
I'm seeing W as feeling less guilty when I'm happy without her, definitely not angry. She encourages me to go out and have a good time, and I do the same with her. This all seems the opposite of the typical story around here though. I've read many sitches and most seem to have a WAS or WS that does less with the kids, goes out a lot, blames the LBS, and either has no external reaction to GAL or gets upset about it. I'm not sure what to think about that.
MRay, I've read through your story and see a lot of similarities to mine. Sometimes I had to double check and make sure I wasn't reading my own posts!
I wanted to say that I experience the same thing you do with my W where it seems my GAL is assuaging her guilt. She is totally curious and temp checks me about everything I do, but at the end of the day she is always telling me she is happy for me or 'good for you', etc. It's hard not to let this make me feel like this means she truly wants me to move on and have a life without her, with no conflicting feelings. Of course, she could just be putting on a show.
I often wonder how to feel about her feelings of guilt. I don't want her to come back to me because she feels guilty. But it seems MWD says any and all emotions that make her question her decision at this time are a good thing. So, I feel you about getting discouraged by GALing and her feeling less guilty. Keep it up, though, it sounds like you're doing great!
It's like she enjoyed emasculating OM at the time, and she would laugh about it at home. And now she's attracted to him? Just weird. I'm really not sure what to make of all that, but I do find it an interesting dynamic.
It's a little difficult to explain, and I don't know if this is the case in every WW affair. For me, it was more about how the OM made me feel. Maybe you've heard the old saying of being in love with love? It's the whole fantasy gig. In the majority of stories, the OM is a step down from the H. I've also found that the OM is frequently
opposite from the H. It fits, simply b/c of the craziness of the wayward mindset.
Looking back I know that it's part of her personality. She's a strong woman that has tried similar things with me, but I would respond by challenging her and showing her strength. Nothing close to violence or abuse, just playful stuff. This always attracted her in our good days and we would laugh, and good times would ensue. OM goes along with it and lets her dominate him and that's now attractive? Was she wanting to see me as a dominant male again? Or is she tired of having a dominant male challenge her authority and she wants a pushover to dominate? Who really knows? The best part of this analysis is I'm not really having an emotional response. I'm just curious.
In a man-woman relationship, the woman wants a man who is stronger than she is. Maybe it goes back to the beginning of time when she needed a strong man to take care of her and her offsprings. She will challenge him, test him, and give him a devil of a time...........to see if he is tougher than she is. Not only tougher, but to see how he will deal with her. I don't think she is
always aware she's testing him at the time, but it's in her nature and she is going to do it! I don't envy men today.
Yes, in a male-female relationship, she wants to see male dominance in her H. That is sexually attractive to a woman. A woman doesn't grow "tired" of male dominance in the guy she loves. She craves it. This is a part of masculinity that turns her on. It's such a crying shame that so many men today think they are suppose to act like these idiot TV sitcom H's. That's the role model a lot of boys grew up watching, and it's so far from what women really want.
Women want to be respected and treated like she's his equal. They don't want to be bullied or treated badly in any form. A man can show his natural male dominance without treating her as if she doesn't have a brain, or using some form of abuse to "keep her line". I would encourage all the H's on the board to read about how to show male dominance in marriage. It may open some eyes, especially when it comes to the bedroom.
I have seen a few men who think they are acting like some cave man by pushing his weight around........but he's just being an overbearing a$$. He's not showing any type of natural male dominance. And I can promise you, it won't sexually attract a woman, unless she doesn't have the sense to determine a fake from the genuine. So men should not confuse the definition of male dominance.
In regard to male dominance, an in-house separation puts the H at a terrible
disadvantage, IMHO.
Thinking back I'm pretty sure she was temp-checking me last weekend, and I failed. She hasn't done any temp-checking throughout this sitch, so I was unprepared. We used to enjoy watching tv shows, reading books, etc. together and discussing what happened and trying to figure out what's going to happen next. All of this has stopped except for one show, but we hadn't watched in a few weeks. When the kids go take their naps or go to bed she immediately goes to her room. She never watches tv in the living room, but this time she put the next episode on in the living room while I was working out. She knew full well that I would come in from the garage and see her watching without me. She knew this would bother me as it's the last thing that we did together that doesn't involve our children. She looked at me when I came in, and immediately asked if I would like her to stop watching. I told her that I really would have liked to watch together so I don't fall behind, but if she wanted to watch she should go right ahead. I went back to my workout, and she decided to go back to her room and watch the show there. I should have left it at that. Feeling like I was losing the one thing we had left,
It didn't really look like a temp check, to me. Now, she may have been doing it to needle you......but I don't think it was to gauge where you are emotionally in the relationship. As an outsider, it did kind of look as if you were the one who couldn't make up your mind what you wanted to do. Plus, you were giving her a lot of credit for knowing exactly what you would feel & think about watching that episode together. Waywards are so self absorbed that she may never even given you a thought when she started watching it. But at any rate, yeah......you didn't come out looking so cool on that one..
In the future I'll be more prepared for this kind of thing. I've read a lot about temp-checking
,
In some of that reading, there's a possibility you read some poster's incorrect definition for temp checking. Just in case, it is when the WW wants reassurance that the H is still emotionally attached to her. So, she'll set him up in some way to gauge his response. Maybe you related this to your situation b/c of your emotions over that episode being the last thing you had done together, IDK. If she had been temp checking, then she would have been pleased that you changed your mind and wanted to watch the episode with her.
Good job in actually seeing your body making a positive transformation.
Perhaps you are correct about my misunderstanding the definition of a temp-check. At the very least she was needling me. She knew what she was doing. My W is highly intelligent, calculating, and far better than I am at playing games like this. My MIL taught her well in this regard. My family has always been very straight forward. I've been very good at detaching lately, and I think she was testing me in some way. I know I failed this one, but I'll be better. Everything is a learning experience.
Thanks for your thoughts on the relationship dynamics. I do think a big problem is when we had our oldest I really stepped up around the house because I knew it had to be done. It was a pretty good 50/50 split before kids, and I never slowed down and talked with her about equally sharing the load again after she was done breast feeding. I just kept right on doing everything, like a doormat. Then that led to some resent on my part that led to NGS expecting something in return. I'm ashamed of that. Then when I quit my job and went back to school, I felt guilty. I wasn't providing for the family, she was. This already made me look weak, even though we discussed this and agreed it was best for the family in the long run. I went out of my way to be the best dad possible and took on all responsibilities for the kids and the house. I was essentially a stay at home dad while going to school, so I felt I should do most of it. This led to doormat tendencies, making me look even weaker. By the time I got my job, she had been getting to know OM for a couple months and were soon best friends. This was when she probably saw me at my weakest: no job, just finished school, doormat at home, NGS, etc. I think she had developed a view of me as very weak due to both my actions at home and our decision for me to go back to school. I thought me taking action to better our future, following through, and succeeding would be enough to keep me viewed as strong. It doesn't really matter now. All I can do is move forward and show my strength and success to the world. She'll take notice eventually, as will others (some already have, though I will not allow myself to go there until my M is over and done).
In regard to male dominance, an in-house separation puts the H at a terrible disadvantage, IMHO.
I agree 100%. All advice I have seen says do not leave the home. She will not willingly leave the home either, so I'm not sure what to do about it. I actually think I would like a real separation. I'd miss the kids, but she can learn to deal with them all on her own and see how she likes it.
Oh, and I have finally experienced how a WS's emotions are all over the place day to day. Before she would have big swings, but they would last weeks at a time. Usually from her having a big enlightenment in wanting to leave me, and then me responding and putting her back into a bad mood in some way. Now that I've successfully(for the most part anyways) been detaching, she has done a big up and down this weekend. As I said previously she was on a big high Friday, and yesterday she went to work all day. She has been wearing her wedding ring out of the house, but taking it off when she gets home. Yesterday she left it at home. It's the first time she didn't wear it when leaving the house since we were married. I thinks she expected a big reaction, and I gave her none. I didn't reach out to her, I didn't initiate any type of conversation, etc., and now today she is looking very depressed again. She had plans to leave the house and take the kids to her parents (this would mean I wouldn't see her all weekend, so I should be upset right?), but I just smiled and said go right ahead and have fun. Now she's been sad all day, napping in the rocking chair when the kids were playing in the living room, going back and sulking in her room when I took the kids outside to play, and looking for me to come begging to interact with her in some way. She won't initiate anything herself, but she is definitely trying to get me to initiate something, or make it seem like I am initiating some contact between us. It's quite fascinating.
W initiated R talk tonight. She called an attorney today to set up mediation for us. She says it's just not fair to either of us to remain in limbo. She can't find herself and move on while in this state, and she doesn't want to end up depressed like her dad. I knew this was coming, and I'll be okay, but for right now I'm devastated. I just wanted my kids to grow up in a loving house with two loving parents. I want to be with my kids every day. I will do my best for them, but it just won't be the same and it feels wrong. I'm just not sure what else to say or do. I just feel...wrong.
I just wanted my kids to grow up in a loving house with two loving parents. I want to be with my kids every day. I will do my best for them, but it just won't be the same and it feels wrong.
I fully understand what you are saying. It is heart breaking to even bear the thought that these kids have to grow with mom and dad and not parents, in fact part time parents. It is so unjust to even see how the lives of us LBS and the precious children are left incomplete because of the WAS's selfishness. Every time my D says mommy and daddy as a single word a part of me dies. We grew up with parents in a happy home and are unable to give our children that basic building block of life. But I think we should take courage in the fact that we tried our best to make it work and are able to tell our children that we gave it our all but it wasn't our decision to make.
Journaling (it's gonna be a long one): So it's been a couple days and I'm feeling more stable. W and I have talked the last two nights, and we've been very honest with each other. We have both grown so much over the past few months. Her through IC and really working on herself. Me through GAL and finding the old, confident me.
Her self esteem is higher than I've seen it since she dropped out of grad school. She said she has never felt good enough for me. It was nothing that I did to make her feel this way. It was her own insecurities. She has started working out and taking much better care of herself. I am very proud of her for this, and have told her so. I have always encouraged her and tried to lift her up, but she has always had a negative view of herself. I know now that this has nothing to do with me, and it's from issues that were there before we started dating. I see her self image changing for the better slowly each day. She's become a better mom to our kids as well, and she has stepped up around the house. We've talked about our past, and are both saddened by what has happened. We both brought up "what ifs" that we think could have saved us, but agreed that didn't matter and we shouldn't dwell on the past. We love each other deeply, she just doesn't love me like a wife should love her husband. She loves me like a brother, and she says that's what she needs right now. I listened and validated as much as I could.
I don't think her feelings for me have a chance to change if we stay together. She puts a lot of internal pressure on herself, and she will feel pursuit from me no matter what I do. So I've decided to go ahead with the divorce. We will do everything we can to give our kids what they need, and I think we will both find ourselves again. We are going to go through the mediation process, and hope to split everything amicably. The only thing I can see causing any animosity is the house. We can both afford it, and we both want it.
I found myself laughing about this yesterday, and I realized I'm going to be okay. I was looking at our calendar, and saw we have our mediation appointment next Friday at 2, and then she has IC a few hours later. I was laughing because the two offices are very close to each other, and close to one of our favorite places we used to eat together when we actually went on dates. I was thinking about asking her to get an early dinner between the appointments and how it would be so ridiculous, but something we would totally do. I told her about this last night, and she started laughing, got teary eyed and said something about that being something we would do. She brought it up again later and said that's something she would really like to do. I told her we'd see how we feel after mediation, and she agreed that was a good idea.
I am slowly feeling better about letting my wife go. I went out last night with some friends and met some new people. My cousin was there with her fiance and two of the women that will be in the wedding. A good portion of the evening was spent talking about the wedding, and I felt no pain or sadness. I had a great time, and didn't think about my W once. I was asked to join a golf tournament as part of my work's team. They know I've never golfed before, but I agreed to do it. I'm going to practice this weekend, so we'll see just how bad I am! I never would have done these things 6 months ago. I was too focused on my family to give myself the chance to live. I'm living my life for myself again, and I haven't done that since I was 16. I want to make it the best journey that I can.
Last night, W said she was very surprised by my reaction to all of this. She expected alternating bouts of rage and begging/pleading. I told her that shows just how far her perception of me is (and has been) from reality. I told her I was ashamed of my reaction to BD and my uncovering her EA. That if there was one thing I would change over the last 4 months I would have kicked her out of the house after finding out about OM. I told her that I would never beg anybody for anything ever again (the tone of my voice and look in my eyes were very convincing). I have also not shown her any rage. She knows I have a temper. I have since childhood. Being raised by an angry alcoholic father will do that to you. I control it very, very well, but she expected this to bring it out. If anything would break my control, this should be it, but I've become a very strong person and she commented on that. I think she's starting to see past the image of me she had built in her head. Probably from IC, the release of pursuit, and my own personal growth. I don't think this will change her feelings for me at the moment, but it's nice to break some of the negative images she has of me.
All that said, I just have a gut feeling that my W and I aren't done with each other. We really do match up damn well. We are both convinced that circumstances and long buried issues from before our marriage caused it to fail. It may be that we file for D and stop it at the last minute. It may be 5 or 10 years from now. It may be that we both find other people and end up happier as friends. I don't know, and I'm not planning for anything. I just feel like there is something there that isn't finished, but I won't be the one pursuing if it happens. She'll have to convince me that it's what she wants, and she's not just settling for me because she realized she couldn't find better (she won't, because I am freakin' awesome).
My plan for the future is to be friendly with her, but not over do it until I am ready. It may take awhile before I can actually be her friend, but I really do want that. Time apart and getting my own life together will help. We will be in each others lives forever thanks to our kids, and at this point I think being friends is the best thing that we can give them. If they aren't going to see us work through our problems to stay married, they can at least see us as a united parental unit that cares for them and treats each other with love and respect. Eventually, I hope to be strong enough to have the four of us sit down and have dinner as a family on a regular basis with no feelings of regret or lingering sadness.
I know some of this goes against typical DB practices, but I'm not doing this for her. My goal isn't to get her back. My goal is to do what I feel is best for my family (me, my kids, and her, in that order). Regardless of what is happening, I still consider her my family. If there were no kids, I'd go dark, but that's not possible. I want my kids to see us in the best possible light. I'll be okay. No, I'll be great.
This may seem like a drastic shift form Monday, but this is where I've been headed. I've known this was going to be the result since we first met with her therapist when we attempted MC. Monday just hit me like a ton of bricks. We're allowed to feel emotions, and experience the ups and downs. This is what makes life worth living. The good would get boring without the bad. My old W never would have had the strength to actually contact a lawyer and start the divorce process. She's stronger now, and I can honestly say I'm proud of her. The woman she is becoming is a woman I could see spending my life with, but that's not for me to decide. Perhaps some day in the future, but for now I've got me. And I'm damn good company.
My plan for the future is to be friendly with her, but not over do it until I am ready. It may take awhile before I can actually be her friend, but I really do want that. Time apart and getting my own life together will help. We will be in each others lives forever thanks to our kids, and at this point I think being friends is the best thing that we can give them. If they aren't going to see us work through our problems to stay married, they can at least see us as a united parental unit that cares for them and treats each other with love and respect. Eventually, I hope to be strong enough to have the four of us sit down and have dinner as a family on a regular basis with no feelings of regret or lingering sadness.
I agree with you. I hope you will give effecient space and time before trying to be her "friend". You can act friendly when swapping kids, etc., but that is different from being her BFF. I believe the attraction can return, if you don't settle into the mindset of a friend too quickly and let it happen naturally. I know you want to have some type of normalcy for your kids, by giving them time acting like a family again. I hope it will work to everyone's advantage, and that the four of you will be together again full time.
I have felt that your W had issues that stemmed from her past and had caught up with her. It good to hear she is getting better through counseling. With both of you growing individually......and finding yourselves......there is hope you will find each other again.
Don't forsake us on the board. We still want to hear from you, okay?
((hugs))
sandi, I appreciate the interest you have given my sitch and thank you for the advice and insight you have given. I know that this is not done. I am not completely detached, and I will have my ups and downs. Things will change throughout this process, and I will be sticking around to post.
We are still living together, but one of the biggest things we want to find out from the lawyer is how to go about purchasing another house. Money is not the issue. The legal ramifications are. Once we find out when would be best to buy another house, we will physically separate. I think this will be a big help to me detaching. Once we are living apart I plan to spend lots of time finding my own life. I won't try for family game night or dinner night until I am not bothered by her potentially having another man in her life. I need to be truly detached for me to feel okay doing those things. Once I am, I feel it would be a great thing to do for our kids. However, they will need time to process the new situation as well. I will not rush this, at the very least, for their sake.
I have made it very clear to her that I cannot and will not be her bff (in our own words that only we we would understand). We won't text constantly. We won't just hang out. She won't get her needs met through me, but I will be there with the kids and when she really needs me. I haven't told her this, but this is my idea of how our relationship will be going forward. It won't be a typical friendship, but it will be a special relationship. If that leads to attraction again, great. At worst, it leads us to being those weird co-parents that can sit next to each other at their kids events and laugh and smile together.
I have felt that your W had issues that stemmed from her past and had caught up with her. It good to hear she is getting better through counseling. With both of you growing individually......and finding yourselves......there is hope you will find each other again.
This hits the nail on the head. It's amazing how right after BD everything was my fault. I made her life hell for years, blah blah blah. Then after she started IC her tune just changed. Most of the changing of our history has stopped. She sees her issues, and I'm glad she's finally dealing with them too.
Still journaling. Lots of details because this is mostly for me to remember everything. First meeting with the lawyer is Friday, and I'm kind of looking forward to it. I'm sure I'll be very emotional, but I'm looking forward to getting out on my own. I've never been alone as an adult. I've never done the dating scene. My W is actually the only woman I've ever kissed. I had this romantic idea of it being that way forever, and I'm still dealing with getting over that.
Everything has been pretty good, except for Sunday. W is very stressed about work, and we tend to feed off each others emotions so it stressed me out. This in turn made her more stressed and she shut down, went to her room and laid there the whole day. We need to get some paperwork ready for Friday, and I had not seen it yet. We won't see each other much during the week, so I asked her about it. This led to some tense conversations. She was just cranky. Yesterday was much better. We had dinner together as a family, and the kids went outside to play afterwards. While cleaning the dinner table W initiated some R talk. We talked about the future, the past, what worked, what didn't. That sort of thing. It was really good. We talked about divorce proceedings and how we'll split the assets. We talked about what we wanted out of the meeting on Friday. Then it turned personal.
She told me why she thinks she can't have feelings for me. She blamed herself, and apologized. She said objectively she knows I am the best man she'll ever meet (I check all the boxes as she puts it), but she can't make herself feel that way for me. She sees me as a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde and doesn't know when she'll get bit again. This has to do with our sexual history of me getting angry with her for withholding sex. Sex has always been a difficult subject for us. First because of distance apart, then her issues with her mom and her upbringing, then she tried to reset by cutting me off during our engagement without telling me, etc. She said she would test me, and it was wrong of her, but she did it anyways. She would wait until I was desperate for affection (after a month or so of no sex), and she would aggressively come on to me while making it clear she didn't actually want sex to see what I would do. I knew exactly what she was talking about, and usually I would go for it. She said she didn't blame me, and she wasn't proud of her actions. That's just what she is afraid of. I can't blame her either. We were both very inexperienced, and we explored with each other. That's what college aged kids do. She is quite repressed, and I guess I wanted to explore a bit too much for her (honestly it was nothing out of the ordinary, she is very conservative and I'm okay with that). She's just never been able to get over being afraid of that side of me.
I validated her feelings and thoughts, and thanked her for opening up to me. She said that this might hurt me, but that she's looking forward to having some good sex again some day. I can honestly say, this didn't hurt me. I can tell I'm moving forward with my detachment. She said it had nothing to do with me, it was just all in her head, and I agree. We put the kids to bed, and continued to talk. She talked about how her IC thinks she still has attachments and feelings for me, but she just can't see them. She told me why she disagreed with him. I validated her feelings, but tend to agree with the IC. Her feelings are just so buried, and she won't get out of her way and deal with them until we are truly separated. We agreed that we need to get away from each other. We are both anxious around the other, and we need some time to heal and deal with ourselves because we haven't been our real selves around each other in a long time. I told her that all I want from her is a genuine relationship. Whether that be as co-parents, friends, or more. I said it would be awhile before I can be anything but a good co-parent, but in the future we'll be okay. I just asked one thing of her: to see me as the man I am today and will become in the future, not the dumb kid that I used to be. She said she would, but she is still dealing with lots of issues from the past (mostly not from me). She just wanted me to know that I didn't screw her up. She was already screwed up, and she's sorry for that. We talked a bit longer about some happy times and I made her laugh and smile a lot.
I ended the conversation and said goodnight and started to walk out of the room. As I left the room she called out a remark about an inside joke we have, knowing I would turn around and come back. When I did she was almost naked, getting ready to shower. She smiled at me and gave me the sexy, don't you wish you could have this look and we both laughed. She did this because throughout our conversation we had been joking about both of us getting into really good shape lately and we are both looking really good. She had joked, in a friendly way, a few times about her body looking so good that I couldn't resist her. I would return fire by reminding her that Thor had nothing on me these days (she loves her some Chris Hemsworth), and if she continued I would be forced to take action. It was all very playful banter. Weird stuff from a woman that is so afraid of me sexually, but at least she's getting more comfortable. I told her she was lucky I'd already showered today or I'd force my way into the shower with her. We both laughed, and I turned to leave and as I walked out I called out, "I love you!" I stopped in my tracks. I hadn't said those words to her in months. It just came out so fast and natural. I was flustered. I quickly said "I'm sorry," realized that was NGS and got more flustered! She was in the shower already. She called out "I love you like a brother!" More jokes because I had told her before that I don't want her to think of me as a brother. I'd rather be her friend. So I said don't be incestuous, you were just trying to seduce me! We had a good laugh and I finally made it out of her room.
It's such a strange place to be. We're clearly anxious and uncomfortable living in the same home, but when we forget what's happening we are great together. Her main fear with me is sexually driven, yet she's clearly able to tease me sexually when there is nothing on the line. Is this another test? We both are ready to move on (well, I'm getting there and I've been approached by multiple women already as I'm not wearing my ring but I feel wrong doing anything about it until I have my own place). I'm grieving for the past, but know I don't want to go back. I am starting to get excited for the possibilities and getting out on my own, but I just can't shake the feeling we aren't done yet. I know my sitch isn't that old, but I guess we've both known things weren't right for awhile. It all feels so fast, and I just hoped we could work things out together. Now I think she can't work them out unless we are separate. We are clearly moving on with the divorce, and I think it's in our best interests, but I just know there is something still there. I'll move on and enjoy my life and all that comes with being single, and maybe someday that will lead us back together.
On a side note, I know everybody thinks they are unique and different and the rules don't apply to them, but I really don't think my wife is wayward. I also don't know if she's a walkaway. She immediately came clean about her EA with OM. Honestly, it didn't start until we were in a very bad place and she didn't acknowledge her romantic feelings for him until we had separated. She immediately showed remorse. She has apologized and has not once tried to keep me attached to her. She is still not talking to him even though I have suggested that she can go out and do whatever she wants at this point. She is planning to go to a movie while I take the kids on a trip this weekend. I asked if she was going with anybody and she said by herself. I said she has friends she can go with, and she named each friend and said why they couldn't go. I told her you know who would be willing to go with you (implying OM), and she just shook her head and said no. She didn't look sad, she didn't acknowledge who I was talking about, she just said no. She routinely points out women I should talk to. She is never jealous or angry when I go out. She wants me to GAL. I really feel that she is genuine when she says she wants me to be happy and she feels she can't give me that. It just doesn't follow the script that I would expect from a WW. Maybe somebody can fill me in here and show me the errors of my thinking. Maybe she's just doing all of that to assuage her guilt, I don't know. She has just said please don't talk to me about any women that you are seeing until you are serious enough to consider introducing them to our kids. We'll see how Friday goes, and then I'll update.
We met with the mediator yesterday, and we have a clear idea of the divorce process and costs and all of that. What was scheduled for 2 hours only took 40 minutes. The mediator said we were just about the easiest case she'd seen in 30+ years because we were so civil and friendly with each other. She praised our ability to trust each other through this process and how open we were about everything. It's amazing to me how two people that have been through so much over the last 16 years can just fall apart like this, but still be so friendly. For her it's just that she sees me as a brother because she loves me, but doesn't have romantic feelings. For me it's my inner strength. I really want what is best for her, and more importantly, my kids.
We still don't know who is going to get the house. I can afford a house that is equal to our current house in every way if we split. She can't. She'd have to move to a less desired neighborhood about a 10-15 minute drive away. I'm pretty sure at this point what I say goes with the house. We both want it, but if I said I wanted it she wouldn't put up much of a fight. There is a house less than a mile from my current one that is the exact same floorplan (I love my house's setup), on the same street (not in sight of each other as the road is split by a major road through the suburbs so that would be good), and I could really see myself living there. The kids would have the same rooms and everything. I'm not sure if that would be good for them or not. I've been looking at houses around us for a couple months, and just haven't seen anything else I like in my price range. I've got to move fast if I want it though. If I don't end up with that house, I might tell her to find herself a place (I told her to start looking in case she is the one to move out).
We are going to her parents house this evening to tell them we are divorcing. I'm going because they are our lenders, so we need to discuss finances and everything dealing with the houses with them. I wouldn't be surprised if they offered me a loan to buy that house, and I'm not sure if I would take them up on it if they did. No matter what, this is happening and I'm okay. I'm getting strong every day. It's so bittersweet. I am grieving the loss of the life we had and what we had planned for the future. As seems common, we were discussing major plans for the next couple decades just days before BD. And looking back she seemed so genuine and excited during these conversations. It's amazing how you think you know somebody so well, and they can hide what they are feeling so damn well for so long. At the same time I'm excited for my life. I'm really finding myself in my GAL. My workouts are going awesome. I'm starting to reach my short term goals, and I'm in as good of shape since I was 17 years old. I hate cardio, but I went for a 3 mile run yesterday along with my weight training. I've joined a softball league that runs for the next couple months. I'm taking my kids to an amusement park tomorrow. I'm going to a fundraiser with some new friends tonight and will meet a lot of new people there. I took my kids to watch the engineering class at my college launch their rockets. I'm seriously doing so much stuff. I'm having a blast! I still get really sad when I think about losing everything, but it's not debilitating like a couple months ago. I'm tearing up as I type this, but at the same time I'm so hopeful. Not that my W will return to me some day (I still think that's a pretty likely possibility way down the line), but that I am a freakin' amazing person. I'd lost some of that somewhere along the way, and I'm so glad it's coming back. I'm not changing who I am, but I am finding the person I was meant to be all along.
I don't get many responses here, but I'm pretty sure it's because I don't ask many questions. I get a lot out of just typing this all out, so it's not a big deal. I really appreciate those of you that have responded to me. I do read just about every other thread, and I get a lot out of it. So thanks to everybody for sharing their stories and taking time to help. I'll continue to journal where appropriate. Good luck to everybody out there!
W's parents weren't home when we went to tell them we were divorcing. They had gone out of town for dinner. She was so afraid of telling them that she didn't call to see if they were home or let them know we were coming. She was on the verge of a panic attack, so we went to the backyard, sat down and just talked for a bit to calm her down. When we went to leave I told her goodbye and she stopped me and thanked me for being there for her even though she knew it must have been very difficult for me. I validated her feelings, told her I'd be there for her when she really needed me, and left.
I had a great time with my kids this weekend. Then yesterday morning W told me she was tired of living a lie, and she really wanted to take her wedding ring off and not wear it anymore. She had been wearing it to work to avoid answering questions, and her Mom works at the same school. So I got a text yesterday morning saying she told her Mom we were divorcing, and she started getting information on the loan finances. This got me thinking about the house, and I'm really leaning towards wanting to keep the house myself and her finding a new house. I sent a couple texts back about her finding a house and what we each could afford, and she sent back an angry text saying the conversation was making her angry and she didn't want me to tell her she had to move out right now. I validated her feelings, and told her nothing was decided yet (it's not).
After work I took myself out for an early dinner and a movie and had a good time. When I got home, I knew W probably had taken off her wedding ring for the last time. I found it in the box I had used to propose to her almost 10 years ago. It hasn't been in that box since I proposed. I expected it to trigger a lot of emotions, but I didn't have much of a reaction. I felt oddly at peace.
I still love her, and probably always will. I still want to reconcile, but don't think there is any chance until she gets out of the marriage and moves on and gets away from me for at least a couple years. Even then the chances might be zero. She has made it very clear that she loves me like a brother, and does not want any romantic relationship with me right now, but is open to anything in the future. She is done trying to control her feelings and it just depends on where those feelings lead her.
I don't know how long it will take for me to move on, but I have found myself becoming interested in another woman I've met recently. I haven't thought about another woman this way since I was 16 years old, so I don't know what to do about it. I find her interesting and fun to be around, and find myself thinking about her sometimes when we are apart. We do not have contact beyond a GAL activity of mine. No exchanged phone numbers, and she may not even be interested in me beyond being a friend. I know I'm not close to ready for anything more than a friendship, and I think these feelings might just be me looking for some way to cope. I just enjoy the time I spend with her, and find myself wanting to spend more time with her. I don't feel guilty for it, I just logically don't think I'm ready for anything. It just seems too fast, and I don't want to be unfair to somebody else. Not sure what to make of this, so I'd like some advice if anybody has some to give.
This has been a really good week so far. I enjoyed the heck out of my softball game yesterday. I forgot just how much I love physical competition. I've twice run into former students while out and both bought me a drink and we sat, ate, and chatted about life. I'm heading for an 8 mile hike with a couple friends on Saturday, and I think my GAL is doing great things for me.
Sunday I'm taking the kids out to my hometown for a local heritage celebration. I'm a bit concerned this may be a trigger for me, so it will be a test for myself. Since we were young (I'm talking 5 years old here), W and I would see each other at these celebrations. It's where we both developed crushes on each other when I was 12 and she was 13. I have vivid memories of those times talking and dancing with her, so I'll see how I feel when I go there. I hope to feel what I feel, and soak it in, but not be overwhelmed. I hope it just feels bittersweet, but I'll see.
I feel myself getting stronger every day, and my smile is back more often than not. I'm even listening to a song right now that we went and listened to at a concert many years ago, and I'm just singing along smiling. In contrast, W is really down right now. I could tell something had been wrong since we last talked about divorce paperwork on Monday, so I pushed a bit when I got home last night and she told me her best friend had found a new job (they work together, her entire social circle is at her work). They had been given joint-directorship of a new project for next school year, and W was very excited for this. Now she's just down in the dumps. I just continued to validate her feelings, and told her that I'm there if she needs to talk about it.
It's really strange to see her so down and me so up as we move towards divorce. She says she just can't wait until she can be happy. I'm doing nothing to hold her back at this point, and have made it clear that I have no expectations of her and I mean it. She says she is trying to "be respectful" towards me during this whole process, and I still think she and OM are not communicating. I don't know what she is waiting for, unless she is trying to save face at work and make it seem like they didn't start anything until we were officially divorced. No matter, I think I am starting to feel pretty lovingly detached at this point. I'm sure I'll fall soon, but I'm confident the ups are going to come much more than the downs in the future.
Mother's day went well. W made a picture book detailing D6's first year of life years ago, and she has it proudly displayed in the living room. She never got around to making one for S3, so I went ahead and made a matching one for him. I had S3 give it to her, and she was very appreciative. She placed it right next to the original one, and sincerely thanked me.
We have our second mediation meeting one week from today. We have most of the paperwork filled out, and really the only problem is going to be the house. W and I are getting along great living together, but when the house is brought up she gets very stressed. I think she's realized that I'm not going to roll over and just let her have it. NGS is a thing of the past.
So I have a question for some of you. W and I are very friendly when together. Probably too friendly, but when we physically separate I don't plan to contact her at all unless it's about the kids. Until recently she couldn't look at me, especially when I had my shirt off getting into the shower or working out or something. Now she has no problem looking at me and making positive comments. She has also started smiling at me (with that look in her eyes, you know the look I'm talking about) and making comments like, "I don't know how I'll ever find somebody else to put up with all my idiosyncrasies." W has made it very clear that the D is going through, and I haven't argued against it for awhile now. It's almost like she's trying to convince herself. Am I reading too much into this (probably)? Is this just a way to try to keep me on the hook? I don't react to these comments beyond something playful like, "Damn right, good luck with that!" I'm still having a great GAL, and I am having so much fun. Even at home. I even feel some emotional intimacy from my wife (only a bit, and I don't initiate or try to take it any deeper). The only thing missing is the deep emotional/physical intimacy.
Remember- don't believe anything they say and only half of what they do. I keep repeating this to myself - but I too am in a state of confusion.
M,
Yoooooooo, you are doing well. Don't stop what you are doing. You Will know her feelings, when she is ready to tell you. She will come to you and show true remorse, that's when the tide has turned. You won't have no misunderstandings when that happen.
She is starting to see what she is losing. You won't her to not only see, but to also start to feel the loss of you. Seems to me she is having second thoughts, but at the moment they are only thoughts. Keep showing her the Mray only a fool would leave.
Keep up the great work.
Thanks joejoe. I'm having a down and stressful day today, and just a couple months ago I would have considered this an up day! Dinner is just about ready, and when W gets home I'm headed to play softball. Things are looking up!
Don't worry, I plan to just continue on with what I'm doing. Not because it may or may not be having an impact on W, but because it's the real, genuine me and I'm feeling happy. I don't think she's having second thoughts though, but I'm trying hard not to mind read. Hopefully she is, but I can't control that. I am definitely showing her a man that only a fool would leave. She's even said that in her own words. Time will reveal what happens, and I'm going to enjoy it as much as I can.
It's been awhile, so maybe time for an update. I'm doing great! GAL is amazing. We are still living together, and getting along like best friends. Honestly, I'm just not emotionally attracted to her anymore. Physically, oh yeah, but I've let her go. I deserve someone that wants to be with me. Maybe she'll change her mind and want to be with me again in the future. Maybe she won't. And I tell you, if she wants it, she better bring her freakin' A game and convince the hell out of me.
We took the kids out to dinner last night, and had a wonderful time. I plan to move into an apartment in the next couple weeks. I have plans to buy a house, just not sure if I want to go for the bigger, lifelong kind of house or a smaller, temporary home that I'd eventually rent out or sell.
To those reading this and struggling, just know that success is not measured by whether you save your marriage or not. I read similar things when I was first here, and didn't believe it. I felt like the people that wrote that just didn't understand. All I wanted was for my family to stay together and for my marriage to work. This was not long ago, but I've learned a lot the last few months. A marriage takes two people, while a divorce/separation only takes one. Well, living a great life only takes one as well. Get out there and live it! You can't control other people, especially your spouse. If you have children, just do your best for them. The happier you are, the happier they will be and the more you can do for them. That's all you can control. Just go out there and be the best you that you can be!
Lovely to read your update, thank you too many posters just go NC on us and we love to know.
Great insight, didn't post to you much but am relieved you have reached the land of Meh!
V
It's been awhile, so I thought I'd post an update just in case anybody cares and it's probably good for me to write some of this down. I've been doing great. Went backpacking for a week with my friends and I'm continuing to workout and get a life! My kids are doing far better than I ever thought they would. They are such wonderful, resilient little things.
STBXW and I remain good friends. We talk about everything except significant others. We had trouble setting healthy boundaries for awhile, but it's getting better. We still have meals together every so often, which is great for the kids. She's been with OM for a couple months now, and I'm starting to see some cracks there. First, they haven't told anybody. Only each of their best friends and I know. They went on a vacation together and she asked me not to tell her parents she was out of town. I had to know because it meant I would have the kids on her normal days. I think it's pretty amusing. The best part is knowing they were sleeping in the same bed together and I didn't care one bit.
The second thing that amused me was the other day I dropped S3 off with her, and she was painting her bedroom and bathroom new colors. She had to bring me back there and show me and she was all excited. I only have two triggers that I know of at the moment, and the house is one of them. The other is seeing her put so much effort into having a good life now when she put in so little effort before. So both of these triggers were hit, and I got a little emotional. I tried to hide it, but after 16 years you know each others looks. So I took D6 to run some errands and get her everything she needed for her new dance classes. STBXW texted me asking if I was okay. I responded telling her that I was doing very good. I told her about my triggers, and that I'm sure eventually they wouldn't bother me either. I told her I was actually very proud of her for finally doing things to make herself happy, which is the truth. She responded with only "I really am very sorry." I told her not to be sorry. This is all a good thing, and I talked about finding myself and living a life that I am proud of.
When I returned to drop off D6, she had the look. You know that look they get when you've done something to really upset them. I told her I know that look, what's wrong? But I got the classic, "nothing." So out of habit I said something like I know something is wrong. If I did something to upset you just say so. Then she said, "Yes, I'm upset. You did nothing wrong. This isn't about you. I have a lot going on in my life right now, and you don't need to know about it." She was right! I didn't! I know she's been unhappy with her mom lately, and I said something along the lines of her mom would calm down and everything will be alright. She was very short with me and said, "I haven't talked to her in over a week." So I just wished her good luck with everything and left. The only thing I could think of is that she's angry with OM about something. School is starting back up, and my guess is one of them wants to tell their friends/coworkers and the other doesn't. I don't really know. I don't really care. I am just so amused at seeing her so angry with somebody else. I've never seen her have that look and it not be about me! I don't know why I find it so amusing. I just do.
I've tried dating, and wow is it complicated. There's lots of interest there, but I've realized I'm just not ready, and it's not because of STBXW. I fell pretty hard for a girl, lets call her Anna, that I've known about 8 months now and she fell for me too. The problem is she's 25 and wants to get married and start a family soon, and my marriage won't legally end until January. That really scared her, and she didn't like the timing of everything. We didn't talk for a month or so, but then STBXW brought up dance lessons for D6. Well, Anna is a dance teacher, and the studio STBXW chose is the one Anna works at. Fantastic right? I figured there are like 15 teachers at the school, what's the chance the class they choose is one of hers? Well, of course D6 chose a class that Anna happens to teach. I texted Anna and asked her if she would be comfortable with this. I wanted to give her a heads up, and let her know that I was not responsible for choosing the studio/class, and I am not stalking her. She laughed about that and said she doesn't think I'm stalking her. I asked a few more questions about what I would need to get for D6, and she answered them. When I tried to end the conversation, she started asking about me and what I've been up to. Since then we've been talking some, so we'll see what comes of that. I know that me still being legally married really bothered her, so I don't plan to pursue her until after my divorce is final. I definitely plan to pursue something at that point though. I have gone on some dates with other women since we stopped talking, but I just don't feel like it anymore. I had set up one of the dates, and was really excited for it. Then after I talked with Anna I just didn't care about the date at all. I realized I'm definitely not over her, so now I'm not trying to date anymore. What is meant to be will be.
Basically, I'm enjoying life. Catching up with old friends, making new friends, having fun experiences, doing things that I want to do. I enjoy my kids when I have them, and STBXW is a much better mom now, so I know they enjoy their time with her as well. To end, life is good.
Hi MRay, I don't think I've read your thread before but I see a lot of similarities between our sitches. You seem to be two or three months ahead of me. There is a calmness in your writing that is comforting. It's also jawdropping to me that you can maintain such calm having gone through such a similar experience. My W is the only woman I've kissed too. I read about the 4 months of no sex after your first daughter was born; it was at least one year for me after my son was born. Sometimes I wonder if I remember that correctly, but all I can remember is at one time thinking to myself "it's been a year already!"
I was waaay more scared and anxious than you to talk to my wife about divorce or her moving out. My fears still hold me back now.
The friendliness b/t you and your W is very unusual to see on these boards, and is what got me to stop and take a closer look at your thread. I thought that's the way my sitch might turn out too, but my W pursuing a PA (a couple months after telling me she would never be able to have sex again in her life) took the wind out of my sails. I have basically told her I can't be friends with her unless we talk about that choice she made while I was working hard to repair our relationship. Now that is just another impasse. I'm trying to figure out what to do with my own life now.
Anyway thanks for being here.
MRay, that's good news you and your wife are cordial and able to communicate openly. At least for the kids' sake that is good. You have a lot of maturity and diplomacy to be able to do what you're doing.
I hope you and Anna can re-connect. How do you feel about starting a new family in the near future?
Hi STH17, thanks for reading. Believe me, when this all started I was a mess. I look back at my response to discovering the affair and I'm disgusted with myself. The begging, the pleading, the self pity. I wish I had reacted in a total different way, but I can't change the past. So a few months ago I wasn't nearly this calm. You'll get there. It's possible!
I guess I'm okay with being friends because we'd basically been living as friends for 6 years with the occasional pity sex thrown in there. I'm also very forgiving, and I can see her side. Do I agree with her actions? No. Does it make me respect her less? Yes, but I still think she is a good person that has issues she's working on. We both still love each other. Just more like brother/sister than husband/wife. I truly want her to be happy. One of the boundaries we have trouble with is that we both joke about things when in uncomfortable situations. This is why our mediation lawyer loves us so much. We are constantly cracking jokes, laughing, and smiling during our meetings. Probably very different than the typical divorce proceedings. We are just too comfortable with each other. How do you force yourself to be uncomfortable?
I definitely understand the feeling like you are working so hard to work on the relationship and she isn't doing anything. That's why one of my triggers is seeing how hard she is working on herself now. She put it so little effort to us for so long. I had been asking her to go out with our friends and do stuff, and get a babysitter and go out just the two of us, or going on vacation without the kids and she always had excuses. Usually she didn't want to deal with getting a babysitter. So now I see her doing all these things, including getting a babysitter for our kids when she only has them half the time anyways, can definitely upset me still. But I guess I just deal with it. What else can I do? Her life does not concern me anymore. She is responsible for her own happiness. I'm responsible for mine. So that's what I focus on. I guess what I'm saying is if you can't be friends with her and be happy, then don't be friends with her.
Hi Nicole! Thanks for the compliments. It's definitely difficult at times, but it gets easier. I certainly hope so too with Anna, but I'm not sure how to go about it. I had planned to wait until January to contact her again as that's when my divorce is final as the last thing she had said to me was along the lines of that it's just not a good time for her and she was hesitant to pursue anything because of my situation for the next 6 months (this was in June). Now with us talking again, and we'll be seeing each other when I pick up D6 from her class, I'm not so sure anymore. One of my friends is getting married in a month, and he was encouraging me to try to be friends with her and see if she wants to watch a baseball game or something (we're both big fans of the same team). It worked for him. He and his fiance were friends for months before finally going out even though he pursued her from the start.
The starting a new family thing is something I've put a lot of thought into, and this is independent of Anna. At first I didn't think I wanted any more children, but I always wanted three (I'm a third child that came along 10 years after my youngest sister, so maybe that's where it comes from). STBXW only wanted two, so we were done. Now I think if I found the right person I could totally have another child. And I don't think I would want just one. Probably two. I'm big into symmetry I guess. I never saw myself as a father of four (dear God, that's scary), but I'm kind of excited about the possibility now. I love my kids, and enjoy being a dad so much. I also wouldn't want to be in my 40's and starting a new family, so it would have to be fairly soon. So, I guess I'm very open to the idea.
Just a bit of an update and some journaling. I turned 33 last week, and a couple days after my birthday I had STBXW and the kids over for a family dinner night. She and the kids got me a couple picture frames with pictures of me and the kids. She had asked for those pictures about a month ago saying she wanted to put them up in the kids rooms at her place. She admitted to lying about why she wanted the pictures, but said she wanted to get me something nice for my birthday. I thanked her and she said, "I really did put thought into that even though it appears like I didn't. I've not put thought into you for a long time. I wanted to this year." Just a strange thing to say while getting divorced.
I still think she and OM did not work out based on many things she has said and done recently. Her relationship with her family has become pretty strained, but they still text me all the time. Her aunt and uncle, whom I grew up with and am very close to as well, asked me what happened. I told them, and they said I shouldn't blame myself. That she has issues from before I was ever around. It just confirmed things that I already knew, but it's nice to have confirmation. When it comes to us, we are very friendly. We don't talk all that much, but when we do it's like we're best friends. She was very excited to come over to see me after my birthday, and things went very well. She's been very critical of her role in our marriage lately. Things along the lines of her quote above are common. I don't see reconciliation happening any time soon, and at this point she'd have to do a whole lot to convince me to give it a shot anyways, but you never know what the future holds. The kids are still doing very well. Not much to report there.
My GAL is still going great. I'm inching towards my goals in terms of being in the best shape of my life. It's hard to beat 16 year old me, but maybe in a few months I'll be there. I have a lot of plans for 2019, and crossing things off my bucket list.
I am now officially building a new house. It should be done in 5-6 months, so just after the divorce is final. I'm very excited for this, and look forward to making it my own! I'm afraid of taking on so much debt all alone, but I've done all the calculations and what if's in my head and it just makes too much sense not to do it now.
I've been in contact with Anna quite a bit. Most of it just friendly banter, but some more serious conversation happened last week along with some information that one of her friends passed along to me. I'm more convinced than ever that she is interested in pursuing something in the future. I've had a few women try to pursue me lately, and I just have to tell them I'm not interested. I had to ask myself if everything worked out with one of them, would I regret not finding out if there was something between Anna and I? The answer was yes. Then I asked if I let these women walk without pursuing anything, and nothing ever happened with Anna, would I regret that? The answer was no. So that made my actions pretty easy.
To sum up, life is going great!
A bit of an update. Anna got engaged about a week ago. Apparently she has been in an on again/off again relationship for a number of years and the other guy found out about me and decided he needed to get serious. This is why she got weird with me a couple months ago. At first I was disappointed, but now I find it amusing. So it's time to see if I am really okay and not just using thoughts about another woman to cover everything up. So far so good though.
Backsliding is real people! It's been awhile, but journaling may help so here I am. I was doing very well until just before Christmas. I hadn't thought about the ex in a romantic way in about 7 months. Of course the holidays are a rough time, and it was just after Christmas when the bomb was dropped, so I guess it's expected to backslide a bit. I was starting to become intimate with another woman, and then one night I dreamt about my ex. It wasn't a sexual dream, I just had a dream about living a normal life and it was back in my old house with my ex and we were happy. I woke up thinking wtf was that and went about my day as usual. Since then I feel like I'm back at the begining. I keep thinking about her. I'm angry again. I feel like I'm starting all over to a degree.
I'm happy with where I'm at in life, and I'm trying to figure out why this happening so I can get over it again. I've continued GAL like a mad man, and I'm just trying to keep myself busy. I'll give the reasons I think why this happened. The holidays are all about family, so that's an obvious one. The night before the dream I was with a woman, whom I broke it off with because I felt it wasn't fair to either of us if I was feeling this way, and we took a big intimate step in the relationship. My ex started sending me a lot of texts that were not related to the kids. She would send things like a screenshot of her computer playing a song she hadn't heard in years that reminded her of a time from our past. She also texted me from the movie theatre about a movie she was watching and said there was a scene that I just had to go see. Things like that that showed she was obviously still thinking about me. I wasn't quite sure how to respond.
One day I dropped the kids off with her at her parents, and her mom mentioned the basketball team for the high school they work at was going to be on tv later that day. OM is one of the coaches, and I just said I didn't care to watch them play. Ex gave me a strange look and said, "I don't care to watch them either" in a bit of an angry voice. So of course this made me think there were problems with them. A couple weeks later we were having dinner together as a family, and when she went to leave she noticed I had rented a movie for the night. She asked if she could stay and watch, so me being an idiot, said sure why not? While she was tucking in our son, her phone rang as I was walking past and it was OM. When she came out of the bedroom she looked at the phone and put it away without a word. I heard her phone vibrate at least three times while we watched the movie and she completely ignored it. This was not normal, as in the past she's been at my place talking to him on the phone or texting and I was completely okay with it. So of course the reading into everything too much had started again along with becoming attached.
When I say for 7 months I hadn't wanted her I meant it. I felt a healthy detachment, and just wanted to co-parent and do the best thing for our kids. It was actually starting to become pretty easy until this happened. I'm slowly working my way back to detachment (I hope). It's not an overnight process, but I'm just working on me. I'm considering putting up some boundaries, but I know I'm going to have to deal with this for the rest of my life. I do want to be as friendly as possible for the kids, and I was able to do this for 7 months, so I'm sure I can get there again and be better this time. I think I should limit the texting to just about the kids like it was before. There was always playful banter in these texts, but it never involved things like hey remember this nice memory from our past that I shat all over while we were breaking up? So in my opinion it's a bunch of things all coming together to make me backslide. Maybe I'm wrong and that's what I'm here for. One can always make more accurate observations from the outside, so let me have it!
Hang in there. When the vets here say "this is a marathon NOT a sprint, they mean it is a marathon!" S and D are not the end. Cycling can happen for a long time.
A friend of my passed away in October. One of the memories I have of him is one year he and his W invited my W and I over to their house for NYE. Several others were there that night, only one person I had never met. My friend's BiL, his W's brother. Apparently, his W had left him for another guy. The D was finalized just weeks prior. So that means he was weeks past D, probably at least a year and half since she had left. The guy was a total mess. Very sad, quiet, stayed to himself. About 11:30pm he said his goodbyes and left for the night. He wanted to be alone for NYs because he was just so sad not to be celebrating it with his W.
I think of that a lot. My friend never mentioned how his BiL was doing over the years. I never asked. But he profound sadness stuck with me. I would imagine it was months or years before he was over it.
So dig in. It takes a while. I am in piecing since last March and still cycle. Just went through a period last month where I almost became the walkaway. This stuff is difficult.
Hi MRay.
I haven't read all of your thread so I don't really know the history. I will check it out though. Where your head was at for the past seven months sounds like where my H is at now with his constant need to tell me he likes me as a friend. I think he hadn't been so deceitful (fake medical treatments (mostly) for four years with a bit of a break in the third year), he and I would have been like you and your W.
Personally, I think that the best marriages have a solid foundation of friendship and if you can find a way to keep the romance alive, you've got it made. I think the romance part is really about making the effort to show the other person they are special and wanted. Too often when people get married, they just stop making the effort and then five or six years of neglecting the relationship go by and they find themselves wondering if they married the right person. It's more about being the right person than finding the right person and that takes consistent effort and care. I am certainly guilty of relationship neglect as I'm sure most people on this board are as well. Hopefully we have all learned from it.
Re: your STBXW. We have a saying in my field which is "all behaviour has meaning" and that you should always pay more attention to what people do than what they say. Sounds to me like your STBXW may be having some of the same feelings you are having and is doing some temperature checking. I don't think you necessarily have to do anything right now other than continue with self improvement. You can put up boundaries if you are sure that is what you want or you can take some time to see if she starts to temp check more and then decide. You could also even just say to her at some point... "Hey, I notice that you are around more than usual. Is everything okay with you?" Kind of a casual, caring, non-committal question that opens the door for her to tell you if she is having second thoughts. She might go there or she may be too scared of being rejected. Who knows? The question is... do you want to know?
Look... I don't think this is a backslide on your part. To me, it is just an indication that you are human, that you loved your W deeply once and that you are still able to see her and remember all of the good things about her. Dreams are interesting. Sometimes I think they are just dreams but sometimes I think they are our subconscious thoughts trying to get our attention.
Also...all of us came to this board and stayed here because we are the type of people who believe in marriage and honour our commitments and recognize that nothing worth having comes easily. We all, at some point, wanted to save our marriages and most of us would take a second chance to R if it was offered to us. Just because you aren't feeling desperate and overwhelmingly sad like you were in the beginning, doesn't mean you have completely shut the door on R if the opportunity is there and your W is willing to do the work. If I were you, I would take some time and step back from dating for a bit until I had this part figured out. But that's me... you have to do what is right for you.
Hang in there. When the vets here say "this is a marathon NOT a sprint, they mean it is a marathon!" S and D are not the end. Cycling can happen for a long time.
Thanks for the reminder Steve. It's definitely a long, difficult process. At least this time it's not as intense as the first.
I haven't read all of your thread so I don't really know the history. I will check it out though. Where your head was at for the past seven months sounds like where my H is at now with his constant need to tell me he likes me as a friend. I think he hadn't been so deceitful (fake medical treatments (mostly) for four years with a bit of a break in the third year), he and I would have been like you and your W.
Hi DejaVu, thanks for the response. I'm definitely not telling my ex that I like her as a friend because that's not true. I don't tell her any of my feelings. Even while I was doing great I knew deep down my feelings were more than that, but I'm only feeding the she's the mother of my children and I need to respect her feelings. She was the one always telling me she liked me as a brother until about August or so.
Re: your STBXW. We have a saying in my field which is "all behaviour has meaning" and that you should always pay more attention to what people do than what they say. Sounds to me like your STBXW may be having some of the same feelings you are having and is doing some temperature checking. I don't think you necessarily have to do anything right now other than continue with self improvement. You can put up boundaries if you are sure that is what you want or you can take some time to see if she starts to temp check more and then decide. You could also even just say to her at some point... "Hey, I notice that you are around more than usual. Is everything okay with you?" Kind of a casual, caring, non-committal question that opens the door for her to tell you if she is having second thoughts. She might go there or she may be too scared of being rejected. Who knows? The question is... do you want to know?
I do think it's a bit of temp-checking, but I don't think its conscious. She has a huge tendency to project her own feelings onto others that she's close with, mostly her mom and me. This was a major problem in the relationship. For years any time she'd drop her guard and start to feel closer to me she'd immediately project some sort of negative emotion onto me. She's admitted to this after therapy sessions, so I know it's not just my thoughts on the matter. I've also seen it as an observer in her relationship with her mom. I've come to realize just how similarly she treats us in her head. I think it's in the process of happening again. She has been acting much more distant the past two weeks, and I just had a strange feeling about it. D6's birthday is Friday, and she'll be with her mom. I texted to ask if they had any plans as I was trying to figure out what I was going to do, and she said no but she would probably just take her out to dinner. I said okay, then I'll do something fun with her Saturday. She responded with, "then why did you ask what we're doing Friday?" It just all seemed like she was looking for a fight, so I asked if she was doing okay and that she just seemed off the last couple weeks. She said she felt the same about me, then proceeded to give all the reasons she's been distant. Things like it's a difficult time of year because of how much we were fighting last year, the start of the semester is always hard, I seemed really busy, stuff like that. It's like it's my fault she's been weird, but then lists all the reasons she's being weird that don't involve me. I'm sure she picked up something from me, It's hard to hide everything, but I really didn't change how I interacted with her beyond responding to her increased text frequency.
As to do I want to know? There's nothing to know. I don't think she's anywhere close to being prepared to look at me that way, and she would never admit it to me or even herself if she was in my opinion. She still has a lot of stuff to work through. She needs to be single for awhile, and she's not single right now so it will be a good long while. Would I like to ultiimately have a chance at R? Of course, but that's not in the cards right now nor in the near future.
I dropped the kids off with STBXW last night, and she asked me to watch the kids next Friday even though it's one of her days. We are very amicable and flexible with our child care situation, so it's not out of the ordinary, but she just looked so ashamed when doing it this time. This is her go to look whenever OM is somehow involved. I'm always excited to have my kids, so I agreed. She kept apologizing and trying to find someway to make it up to me, but I just waved her off and said I'm happy to have the kids and she should have a good time.
Later I started thinking and thought she could just as easily go Saturday. Why can't she go Saturday? It's OM's birthday. They still haven't told anybody they're a couple, so I'm sure he's doing other stuff, so they can't hang out. I keep going back and forth between being amused and angry about this.
I had lunch a few days ago with an old friend that still works with them. To be clear, I don't go around asking about them or looking to talk about them. It's the last thing I want to talk about, but it came up in the conversation and she confirmed they are still trying to hide they're a couple, but she's figured it out. I just think it's pretty amazing how ashamed people can be about something, but it doesn't seem to matter in the end.
As far as me, I'm still just trying to be me. I'll admit I've fallen back into a rut. I'm actively working against slipping into a depressed state. Little things can still really bother me. For example, STBXW is not big into jewelry, but I had bought her a very nice pair of diamond earings just before we separated. She never wore them, but for Christmas she got a pair of earings that she's worn a few times around me. I'm pretty sure they're from OM, and it just pisses me off. I try not to let her see it, but I'm not sure if I'm successful. I've got to continue detaching and being the healthiest I can be. My GAL is still going, and I'm in fantastic shape and only getting better. It's just going to take time.
I've had very little contact with STBXW. Nothing beyond dropping off the kids. One thing I've noticed the last few times I've seen her is how terrible she looks. I'm not sure if it's her being stressed/sick/whatever or if I'm just seeing her differently now. She appears to have aged 10 years in the last few months. She's always looked young for her age, and that wasn't just my opinion, but now she looks every bit and more the 35 she'll be turning in a few days. Don't get me wrong, 35 isn't old, it's just that at 30 she was constantly confused for one of the high school students. No way that's happening now.
I thought I'd journal a bit since it's been awhile. My new house is supposed to be finished next month, and I have a move in date! This is all very exciting, but is causing some stress. That along with preparing my taxes and dealing with some credit card fraud has made this a long couple weeks. My GAL is continuing. I've gathered a rather varied group of friends recently that I do many things with. I'm still working out like a madman, and I've read more recently than I have in years. I took my kids to a really fun event last weekend and they keep telling me I'm the best daddy ever, which just melts my heart.
While out and about I've run into a few of my old coworkers and students and had some fun conversations with them. They just can't stay away from the topic of STBXW though since they always knew us as a close couple. Apparently everybody at their work, including their students, know about them as a couple but they refuse to acknowledge it. A couple of old students I ran into went to school with OM and had all bad things to say about him and compliments for me. A similar thing happened with an old coworker that also taught STBXW and OM. She said something to the affect of there's no way it will last, she'll eat him alive, and I should feel sorry for the guy. I just try to take it graciously and change the subject.
I'm not ready for a serious relationship because I'm not over STBXW, but I am dating. I'm open and honest with my situation and intentions as I don't want to hurt anybody with expectations of something I can't give them. Being a college professor makes this difficult because as soon as the semester is over I get students running into me and hitting on me. It's very flattering, especially the girl in her early 20's saying my arms distracted her in class, but that's a line I'm extremely hesitant to cross. Tempting, but not a reputation I need to foster.
Speaking of not being over STBXW, I've recently cycled back to missing her. I actually broke down at the dinner table last night for a brief moment. I think it's all the stress I've been under this week. I can't help but notice little things and link them to her missing me. I know this is bad, and I try not to, but it happens. Things like seeing that she watched a movie on demand (we still have a shared account to save money) that we went to for our third date. It was such a bad movie, and I know she hadn't watched it since 2002. Things like that and her never seeming to want me to leave when I pick up the kids. We had our first one on one interaction without the kids around in months a few days ago. I had to go over there to pick up my new credit card (dealing with the fraud case, and I don't want to update my mailing address until I move into my house). She knew I was coming. I expected to knock on the door, her to hand me the envelope, and I'd go. Instead she waved me into the house and took her sweet time getting my mail, and we fell into a natural, fun conversation. My fault I know.
The thing I am struggling with and would like any advice or viewpoints people have to offer is being myself. Months ago I've found myself and am me around everybody except STBXW. She's starting to find herself as well, though she's definitely working through some issues still, and when we are both acting natural it's just so clear that the chemistry and compatibility is still there. That's not good for me. It tends to begin a cycle back to missing her, so I guard myself around her. But I struggle at the same time thinking I should just be myself around everybody and not worry about what that leads to. I'm able to move past it fairly quickly at this point, so I feel I should just be my happy, open, awesome self all the time and deal with what that leads to when it comes up. I'm just not sure if I should try to keep my guard up, just be myself and damn the consequences, or put up new boundaries to limit our interactions to help me move on faster.
So apparently our mediation attorney is incompetent or something. It took her 5 months from filing to finish writing up our judgement, which in her own words was the easiest judgement ever because we agreed on everything. The only reason we employed her services was to ensure we did the paperwork correctly. Pretty frustrating. Beyond that it might cost me my house because I expected to be done months ago, and now I don't have a judgement showing I owe no child/spousal support. So now the underwriter doesn't want to approve my loan. I might not only lose the house, but the deposit I've given the builder as well, which is quite significant.
The above was just to vent some frustration. Now I need someone here to hit me with a 2x4 and talk me out of something. So these latest issues with our divorce attorney have caused STBXW and I to talk a lot with each other, and vent about the issues. It's just clear the chemistry is still there, and from some of her comments it just makes me want to talk about trying again. I'm not wanting to stop the divorce process or anything like that, I just want to hang out with her and see what comes of it. Is it too soon? I know if she wants to try she'll let me know, but I'm really not sure of that with her personality. She's always been very stubborn, especially when it comes to feelings. I'm not really sure what to do. I'm leaning towards just letting it go, but there's a part of me that wants to reach out. Talk me out of it folks!
I know if she wants to try she'll let me know.....
There is your answer.
but I'm really not sure of that with her personality. She's always been very stubborn, especially when it comes to feelings.
Do you seriously want to be with someone who is so stubborn she would rather D than work it out because of what? Feelings? That doesn't sound like it would be a very functioning R going forward.
I'm leaning towards just letting it go, but there's a part of me that wants to reach out. Talk me out of it folks!
You have answered your own questions in the first two quotes. Let it go, don't pursue, if she really wants to work it out you know she will climb a mountain to do so.
Thanks Twofeet, I had decided I definitely would not be reaching out to her. I've actually decided I need to pull back further during drop off/pick up time as well. We get along like friends, and that's obviously not what I want. It's obvious to me that if she's ever single she'll reach out, but she is with OM at the moment and I don't want to be her friend on the side. Balancing that with being the best coparents we can be is going to be the challenge and focus moving forward.
I was actually in a very good place recently. It felt different than before. It wasn't that I didn't have feelings for STBXW, it was that I felt them but was at peace with where I was. Then yesterday I picked up the kids from school and while driving them home I ended up at the same intersection as her and OM in his car. It was like a kick in the nuts. I had a pretty emotional response for a couple minutes, but I calmed down pretty quickly and was able to move on with my day. I'm upset that seeing them like that had that kind of power over me, but honestly it was the first time I've seen them together like that. And I moved on pretty quickly, so I think that's a good sign.
On a side note I know I'm looking damn good. I took my kids to the park after that, and was talking to a couple moms there. Apparently they called their friend and tried to get her to come meet me, and then practically forced us to start a texting conversation. I was reluctant, but then they showed me her instagram. There's no way this woman needs help finding men to talk to! Apparently I make a good impression.