A familiar story with questions. IV

Original thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2753338&page=1

2nd thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2755330&page=1

3rd thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2758333&page=1

Quick update. W continues to yammer and I continue to validate. D18 is home from school and I stay out of the way.
W seems to enjoy my company and I tend to slip away before it gets old.
Nothing like having a looming deadline hanging over your head.

Reflections on IC

So after a good day, I head to IC and traffic is heavy and I arrive 3 minutes late.I hate being late. I am usually 10 min. early to everything.
Anyway, it started an ill mood and then when I got there I was given the occasional update questionnaire and asked to fill it out. If I had known I would have arrived even earlier than usual. Anyway, this added to the mood.
So between short-term annoyances and the weight of my overall stitch, I unloaded on the counselor.

She was delighted because she has never understood the concepts in DB. She asked why I was afraid to share my honest feeling to my W. After explaining it had nothing to do with fear and expanded on the DB approach to the rules, 180 etc., and how any healthy expression was just not in the cards at this time. Seeing that IC is all about self-care it is understandable how it can seem contrived and stifling.

I explained starting an R talk and dumping my anger about the whole stitch was not unlike itching when one has Chickenpox. It might seem like the natural thing to do. It might feel good in the short term, but ultimately it is the wrong thing to do. It would mostly escalate in an argument and could possibly give fuel to her fire in proceeding with a D.
I had to clarify that my reluctance had nothing to do with fear but more with strategy and not a manipulation.

Anyway, I guess this post is more of a vent or journaling. But IC doesn't quite get DBing.

Confession time:

While looking at Ws bible study prayer requests I saw in her handwriting

"lead me not into temptation, but deliver me from the evil"

Yea, I know I shouldn't snoop. Yes I know it was personal.

At first, I told myself it could mean many things. After a while, it began to eat at me.
I have become hypervigilant.

Originally Posted By: RR17

Confession time:

While looking at Ws bible study prayer requests I saw in her handwriting

"lead me not into temptation, but deliver me from the evil"

Yea, I know I shouldn't snoop. Yes I know it was personal.

At first, I told myself it could mean many things. After a while, it began to eat at me.
I have become hypervigilant.

Why did that eat at you? Most LBH would love to have their WW write that! Shows she wants to do the right thing.

I've often said, I don't know how the people that are not religious go through this stuff. God, His Word, my faith, and prayer have been my solace these last 3+ months.

Originally Posted By: Steve85

Shows she wants to do the right thing

Yes it does, but it doesn't show what the right thing is to her. It could also mean that R with RR17 is the evil. That's why one shouldn't put to much emphasis on stuff like that.

Originally Posted By: Steve85

Originally Posted By: RR17

Confession time:

While looking at Ws bible study prayer requests I saw in her handwriting

"lead me not into temptation, but deliver me from the evil"

Yea, I know I shouldn't snoop. Yes I know it was personal.

At first, I told myself it could mean many things. After a while, it began to eat at me.
I have become hypervigilant.

Why did that eat at you? Most LBH would love to have their WW write that! Shows she wants to do the right thing.

I've often said, I don't know how the people that are not religious go through this stuff. God, His Word, my faith, and prayer have been my solace these last 3+ months.

I can't argue with any of what you say. It also appears that she is lying and there is OM.

Originally Posted By: Btrow

Originally Posted By: Steve85

Shows she wants to do the right thing

Yes it does, but it doesn't show what the right thing is to her. It could also mean that R with RR17 is the evil. That's why one shouldn't put to much emphasis on stuff like that.

I don't think that R with RR17 is the evil. But who knows?

She seems to find time to spend time together. She seems to behave as if spending time with me is the right thing to do. But you're right. Who knows?

This kind of feedback is good. Left to my own interpretation is maddening.

D18 went back to school today. D15 is off to the beach with a friend. Just us two for the week.

Wish me strength, discipline and some luck.

All advice appreciated.

Journaling:
So, empty nesters for the week. W has been nice and respectful. I guess we have been more like platonic roommates. But she seems to want to spend time with me.

Well, I have to say that I was feeling a bit proud of myself for not trying to initiating sex the last several days. A couple times I felt it might have been expected.

Tonight I decided that the mood was right and at the typical bedtime I said: "care to come up?"
W: "For what?"
M: "Whatever"
W: in a disgusted tone "No", ""For one thing I started" void of any respect or consideration.

M "Okay"

Then I went upstairs and began to feel slighted. I didn't deserve that tone and it pissed me off.

I went downstairs and asked why she answered in such a disgusted tone. W said she didn't know.
I explained that I didn't deserve it and that it had nothing to do with her not agreeing, but that I felt I deserved some consideration when being turned down. Like my feelings matter. Everything else in her recent behavior seemed kind and considerate, but not now.
She simply said she didn't know why.

I walked off feeling better for voicing my concern yet not allowing it to escalate. That and wondering why a person wouldn't at least wonder why.

RR17, some advice I was given early on was to not initiate sex. Apparently there is nothing less attractive to a WAW/WW than a husband trying for sex.

Maybe Arista or sandi can tell you more about it, but I was advised against it, and told if she initiate I could go through with it as long as I didn't read anything into it.

Steve, I have read both. I believe it can be pursuing.

As for being attractive, there is a lot of things like boundaries that aren't attractive.

Not sure what you mean. But from what I was told trying for sex during limbo is about the most unattractive thing you can do.

Originally Posted By: RR17

Well, I have to say that I was feeling a bit proud of myself for not trying to initiating sex the last several days. A couple times I felt it might have been expected.

Here's the dynamic that's at work- you've been DB'ing and removing pressure from her and as a result she feels more comfortable around you. But inside she still wants out of the M, she just doesn't feel the pressure to remind you all the time because you've backed off and seem OK with things. But you (like most LBS's do) have misinterpreted her increased comfort level to mean she wants recon (or maybe some sex), but no, that is not where she is at. So your sudden request kind of blind-sided her and she was probably surprised and yes, maybe even a little disgusted. Not so much at the thought of having sex, but just because she was feeling like things were going well because you've removed the pressure and now suddenly here you are applying pressure again.

Quote:

I went downstairs and asked why she answered in such a disgusted tone. W said she didn't know.

She probably didn't know why, but I suspect like I said above it's because you applied pressure to her after having done a great job of pulling back for so long.

Quote:

I explained that I didn't deserve it and that it had nothing to do with her not agreeing, but that I felt I deserved some consideration when being turned down. Like my feelings matter.

She's a WAS. As hard as it is, you've got to suck it up and accept that your feelings DON'T matter to her right now. All that matters are HER feelings. So you listen and validate, and you bite your tongue when you want to speak up about your needs not being met. Don't vent to her, vent to us. That's what we're here for.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

. As hard as it is, you've got to suck it up and accept that your feelings DON'T matter to her right now. All that matters are HER feelings. So you listen and validate, and you bite your tongue when you want to speak up about your needs not being met. Don't vent to her, vent to us. That's what we're here for.

This is such good advice. Advice I didn't heed this morning. And now I am at work and have no idea what firestorm I will walk into tonight.

Each couple, each sitch is different.

Sex is different to ML. If it works and if the spouse is wayward you use protection then it's fine. Trouble is expectation comes into it and it confuses.

If you can detatch, if its a 180, or just great exercise I think it's fine. Just don't give it much meaning.

V

Originally Posted By: Vanilla

Each couple, each sitch is different.

Sex is different to ML. If it works and if the spouse is wayward you use protection then it's fine. Trouble is expectation comes into it and it confuses.

If you can detach, if its a 180, or just great exercise I think it's fine. Just don't give it much meaning.

V

This ^^^ is the approach that I have taken. W and I have discussed what meaning if any that sex plays these days.

When I told this story it was fresh and I was venting, although I get the part about bringing it here.
My C in IC says that she is allowed to hear things like this. I know IC didn't read the book and I am aware of both valid schools of thought.

Back to that conversation where I told her I didn't deserve this type of response: What I didn't tell is how she listened. She honestly seemed saddened and concerned, although she didn't apologize. (she seems to struggle with apologies)
But she listened and didn't get defensive. I believe that she doesn't know. Looking back this very sitch has lead to many arguments over the years. Not the no sex now but how she communicates this message. I even stated that I didn't mean to chastise, but I wanted to let her know how I felt. She seemed to validate me.

Vanilla, I doubt she was surprised. She does know me. She has always struggled with giving bad news and it has come up before. The sound of disgust, I take as a defensive improper coping mechanism to delivering a "No".

Even with the kids, she tends to say "we'll see" or "maybe later" when she means No.

Thanks, everyone for your responses. Even if it sounds like I don't always agree with the observation or theories, I do take them into consideration and another opinion is always welcome. Most of the time I feel like I just didn't describe the event or dynamic sufficiently.

So W is heading to work. Says she is ready for this day to be over. In my mission to validate I ask why. Well, she goes on to explain that she has some mess to clean up and the company owner has his head in the sand. blah blah blah
I listen and add a few things remembering to listen and not problem solve.

She then makes the comment that caught my attention. W said she realized that she was attracted to Alpha males. That even though you don't always like what they have to say, you always know where they stand.

Now, this caught my attention for a couple of reasons. First, it seemed awfully introspective for my W. I knew she was always drawn to the "John Wayne" type but to hear her say this was unusual. When did she come up with this little tidbit?

I believe this is what attracted her to me in the 1st place 20+ years ago. When I see posts about Nice Guy Syndrom I never really worry that I am that guy.
I also am reminded how this sitch going back to her A nearly 4 years ago and a recession that stripped my business for years before that had knocked me down several notches. In the last several months I believe that I have regained much of that swagger but these things take time. I am human and suffering from uncertainty in my family and M.

C and MC tell you to become more vulnerable and tender and unpack your feelings etc. and again this isn't the stuff of alpha males. I see the value but perspective is tantamount.

Okay, so what does this all mean to me?

Predictably, I wonder if there is a new Alpha in this scenario. I'm not focused too much as it is a distraction and will eventually reveal it's self if so.
It is something to take and use to my advantage moving forward. Thanks, W. Not sure exactly how at this point but food for thought none the less.

One thing my wife said that still sticks with me, and that I think is true for all WWs, is that what she was feeling at any particular moment maybe not be the way she was feeling the next. I know we are supposed to "believe none of what they say" but this emotional roller-coaster that WWs are on is very very real.

So please take her introspection with a grain of salt. What she might feel the moment she said it, may not be the way she feels the next time you interact with her. Frustrating? Absolutely. But then dealing with a WW is the most frustrating thing a H can go through, IMHO.

Originally Posted By: Steve85

One thing my wife said that still sticks with me, and that I think is true for all WWs, is that what she was feeling at any particular moment maybe not be the way she was feeling the next. I know we are supposed to "believe none of what they say" but this emotional roller-coaster that WWs are on is very very real.

i find this to be true... there were several times during my "derailing," where i said one thing one day, and a few days later said the opposite... the thing is, i didn't realize i was doing it until H and/or our sons pointed it out to me... but i was really expressing how i felt at that particular moment... it's odd...

I realize that what a WW or WAS says can't be trusted. I also have read in DB as well as rules to pay close attention to what your S is really saying, monitor and adjust, no?

I get it. Don't trust what you hear and see. Watch and listen but know that there are deceptive factors at play, right?

It is a roller coaster to say the least.

The hardest part of DBing is denying your own feelings, especially when you see positive results. Not to over-dramatize, but to tolerate abuse for the greater good of the union.

So I spent the day, after church, BBQing ribs and watching the Masters with the W.
She put virtually nothing into the meal, much like the relationship at least the last few years. Just like BFFs.

Maybe one day she'll remember and miss these ribs.

So in this neverending journey of discovery, both self and otherwise, I have run up on the idea that "loneliness is a symptom of unresolved childhood issues".

I have personally heard from my W as well as others here that WAS that they feel lonely within their M/R. Usually, it is exaggerated for dramatic effect, like "I have never been so lonely as I am in this relationship."

Just wondering if this is something that needs to be addressed for proper recon?

Loneliness is more of a symptom than a cause. Rooted in the unhappiness they feel in the MR. I've never heard a spouse, regardless of their childhood, saying hey are "lonely" with in a happy, healthy MR. So no, I don't think it has to be addressed, I think it is naturally alleviated as the R unfolds.

Originally Posted By: Steve85

Loneliness is more of a symptom than a cause. Rooted in the unhappiness they feel in the MR. I've never heard a spouse, regardless of their childhood, saying hey are "lonely" within a happy, healthy MR. So no, I don't think it has to be addressed, I think it is naturally alleviated as the R unfolds.

The unhappiness they feel in the MR is more a symptom than a cause. IMO
As long there is no abuse, each partner is responsible for much of their own happiness.

Originally Posted By: RR17

Originally Posted By: Steve85

Loneliness is more of a symptom than a cause. Rooted in the unhappiness they feel in the MR. I've never heard a spouse, regardless of their childhood, saying hey are "lonely" within a happy, healthy MR. So no, I don't think it has to be addressed, I think it is naturally alleviated as the R unfolds.

The unhappiness they feel in the MR is more a symptom than a cause. IMO
As long there is no abuse, each partner is responsible for much of their own happiness.

True. I meant the unhappiness is the cause of the loneliness. But yes, you are right, however most spouses aren't differentiated (look up differentiation) enough to realize they are responsible for their own happiness. All the WAS/WW knows is that she is unhappy, and therefore it must be her H's fault. It usually isn't until years later when they are unhappy with a new H that they start to realize it might be something more.

I've read that abandonment in adults is the result of self-abandonment. This makes sense to me. We then look for someone to fix this scenario. When the solution is often not near the problem.

You are right about self-differentiation. To the WAS/WW there is no differentiation. All the unhappiness is because of the LBS.
Lose the LBS and it all goes away. Yea, right. (sarcastic)

The weight of my problems has really pressed down on me the last 20 or so hours. Depression leads to insomnia. Insomnia leads to depression.

Modern teaching says acknowledge your feelings. Modern teaching says to focus on the good and pick yourself up. I guess it is possible to do both, but it is exhausting.

We often give better advice than we practice. I know I often do.
No, I don't have any confessions today.

Is this looming deadline the cause of my distress or just my excuse?

Much of the time I feel comfortable with her moving out. I have rationalized that much of her problems are just that, her problems. I expect that regardless of what happens, she will realize this and try to return. Perhaps I'll be here for her.

I oscillate with the idea of having a pragmatic meeting regarding her plans. Mentally and emotionally preparing myself to respond and not react, regardless of what she says.
There are many practical and financial factors at play.

Then I decide that I should not. A couple of days later it starts again.

I'm not a wishy-washy man and this oscillation is not my typical MO. I don't like it.

RR17, I feel you brother. I too am not wishy-washy at all. But I oscillated bad especially in the beginning. It was about 2 month in that I started to stabilize, but I still (as evidenced in this thread) will have a bad thought. I think it is part of the process. I think that when a spouse breaks trust, it is difficult to get past that completely for a longtime. I feel like I've differentiated a lot especially in the last month or so. Yet unexpectedly I'll get that dreaded feeling wondering if she is doing something I don't know about. It can be maddening. Luckily it is fewer and farther between and has a shorter duration when it does happen.

Hang in there man. I have no advice, and I am not even sure that my advice is that good when I give it. But what I can offer is support. That there are those of us out here that can relate, and that are rooting for you, and that can see the value in you as a H, father, and person!

Thanks, Steve.

FWIW, I believe that until proper recon has been executed that haunting suspicions will never go away. Make them do the work or you will be back.

Yea episodes will get further between but they will sneak up on you and I'm not sure that unexpectedly is not worse that more often. Frequent suspicions keep your guard up

So tempted to try to initiate sex. Both for my own needs as well as, I recognize it as a temp-take. Both in would she agree and how it would transpire.

Because I recognize this temp-take, I will not.

I guess that's progress. IDK

Hang in there RR. Yes it is a bad idea to initiate. From what I have read it does two things, both bad:

1) It comes across as desperate which is very unattractive. The WAS is not attracted to the LBS at this time and this just heightens it.

2) If you are making progress with your WAS, initiating (similar to saying "I love you" to them) reminds them that they aren't attracted to you. This can setback some of the progress you have made.

I know we are guys and we have needs but you definitely don't want to do something that will push her away.

Not to mention it adds mystery.

What I'm studying now:

Differentiation Of Self
The first concept is Differentiation of Self, or the ability to separate feelings and thoughts. Undifferentiated people can not separate feelings and thoughts; when asked to think, they are flooded with feelings, and have difficulty thinking logically and basing their responses on that. Further, they have difficulty separating their own from other's feelings; they look to family to define how they think about issues, feel about people, and interpret their experiences.

Originally Posted By: RR17

What I'm studying now:

Differentiation Of Self
The first concept is Differentiation of Self, or the ability to separate feelings and thoughts. Undifferentiated people can not separate feelings and thoughts; when asked to think, they are flooded with feelings, and have difficulty thinking logically and basing their responses on that. Further, they have difficulty separating their own from other's feelings; they look to family to define how they think about issues, feel about people, and interpret their experiences.

YES! Very good. Differentiation is extremely important in MRs. I did not realize this before all of this occurred with my wife and I. I now realize that if I was properly differentiated on BD, things probably would have gone a whole lot differently.

I had been looking for a way to Respond and not React to my W. I had also been looking to become more mentally strong in regards to my sitch.

I stumbled on to this concept and it made sense. I think it is a subject that needs to be expanded in DB.
Much of the rules are already supporting the concept.

So my current state is one of a holding pattern. W and I get along peachy. Like Bffs and who wouldn't with her yacking about her day and my validating without requiring much attention of my own.
Still have no idea if there is current OM and most of the time I doubt it. Last EA she started exercising and buying new clothes ect., in anticipation of a physical meetup. I don't see that this time.

Those that have followed my sitch may have noticed that occasionally I get a suspicion and it sends me to a dark place. But most of the time I logically don't see the signs I noticed last time. Not at the current time.

So as I hold and wait to see if she follows through on her expressed plan to move out as school lets out. No, I don't get any updates on this nor do I initiate R discussions, so how would I as W never communicates her intentions. (I should just know).

I read other sitchs on here and one thing that sticks out from the seasoned sages is the idea that WAS/WW take measures to keep LBS in check.

Now I would never have thought my W would be capable of such a dubious measure. She in my experience has never been able to act in a way contrary to her feelings. An undifferentiated self if you will.

Is this part of the spell or fog or paradigm shift that is typical of these Ss?
Please shed some light on the subject.

Is it just me or is it the more physiological and relationship stuff I read the more I find fault in my W and our R? Not to say I don't discover my own issues. That's not the point.

Perhaps it's a part Detaching. Either way, I see stuff that led to problems that I intend to avoid in the future both in myself and in a mate whether it is this relationship or the next.

I think the worst part of this holding pattern is looking for meaning in the slightest nuances. Most are probably meaningless but once I became woke to Ws state it's easy to look back at the signs that I dismissed before discovery.

Hypervigilance is not easily ignored. Yes, I can control what I do with suspicions, but I can't ignore the suspicion.

Some days are easier than others. Not doing something to directly affect it is maddening.

I lost my last living parent last November and I spend more time pondering this sitch than I do thinking about him.

So tonight I come home and W and daughter are talking in her room. She yaks on and on about her tennis game. I listen and confirm.

Finally, she asks about an office function that I attended.
I told how a W of a coworker asked about how she should invest a sizable amount of money.
She then says "Why would she ask you?" there in front of my daughter.

This hurt.

I texted how I felt once she went to the room where she sleeps.

She apologized and said she had a problem with me and money. This is the first I've heard of this.

She said it like this somehow justified her actions. I told that really hurts.

RR17 its hard but you have to ignore that kind of thing. She didn't say it to make you feel good. You reacting just shows her she still has power over you.

Please continue to read up on differentiation. You need to work on detaching.

You are correct, Steve. This is what I need to do. Didn't help that I had had a few beers.

Why would I even be attracted to someone that is so slow to apologize and even when she does it often sounds like "I'm sorry, but it's really your fault.."

Most of the time I have my defenses up and can navigate these things, but right after listening to her yammer on about the other tennis team. Validating as she goes. I let my guard down and she got me.

Originally Posted By: RR17

You are correct, Steve. This is what I need to do. Didn't help that I had had a few beers.

I know I am going to get a reputation as the "anti-alchohol guy". And to be fair I am pretty anti-alcohol. But I would highly highly highly suggest you refrain from drinking when you are going to be interacting with your wife. This stuff is hard enough when you are in full control of your faculties. Throwing alcohol into the mix just really lowers your judgement abilities. I know a lot of people going through this use alcohol as an escape but it is just bad idea.

Good point and I'm not a big drinker anymore anyway. Last night it led to a bit of a text tirade after her disrespect.

BTW, this morning she apologized in person. (why couldn't she have done it immediately last night?)
I accepted.

I've been thinking about establishing some boundaries. She said that that disrespectful statement just kinda "leaked out". I guess that's why I'd never heard anything like that before. When you can't communicate like an adult and you can't own your mistakes, you don't get to excuses your leaky statements.

Quick update:

Still holding. All has returned to as before. W seems happy. We ate alone together as 15D had a Spring dance. Today I will grill and stay gone most of the day beforehand.

Another good weekend. W seems happy. I Weather was nasty so I stayed close to home most of the last two days. Grilled Saturday night.

Is it possible that WAW never feels any loss?
That life just continues and as long as LBS doesn't initiate R talk things just continue without any reconciliation?

I think at some point you need to do some work to get over the issues that caused the disintegration of the marriage, or make a decision to go your separate ways. Obviously you can't continue in in-house S forever, right? I mean you aren't going to be happy with that long-term are you?

I'm don't think that I ever gave any indication that work wasn't being done. I think I have, to a large part, addressed my contributions that I am aware of. W has adjusted her behavior as well. Not perfect but improvements have been made.

No in-house S can't go on indefinitely and that is the point.

Originally Posted By: RR17

I'm don't think that I ever gave any indication that work wasn't being done. I think I have, to a large part, addressed my contributions that I am aware of. W has adjusted her behavior as well. Not perfect but improvements have been made.

No in-house S can't go on indefinitely and that is the point.

But as far as you know she still plans to move out on 5/18? Have you seen any activity to suggest she is working on that? Less than 4 weeks away now, she'd need to be actively working on it to make that come to fruition.

RR17, my wife was wanting to move out, but 1 month after BD dropped all efforts to make that happen. Remember, believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. That goes in both directions (both for negative comments and positive comments).

I have seen no efforts to make that happen. And I have looked.

Originally Posted By: RR17

I have seen no efforts to make that happen. And I have looked.

Likely she will extend the deadline. And extend again.

Either 1 of 2 things will happen:

1) You'll grow tired of limbo and make the choice to file for D.
2) She'll eventually get over her waywardness and come back to the MR.

How long 2 takes is anybody's guess, but WWs/WAWs have been known to remain in limbo for years. It also will depend on what you do. In fact, if you ever get to the point of 1, that may be the trigger she needs to come back to the MR. The question is will you be over it by then and not want her to come back. That happens.

RR17, limbo is terrible so I know how you feel. In many ways I am still in a bit of limbo myself, though she seems to be doing the work and has stated she wants to stay in the MR.

Originally Posted By: Steve85

Originally Posted By: RR17

I have seen no efforts to make that happen. And I have looked.

Likely she will extend the deadline. And extend again.

Either 1 of 2 things will happen:

1) You'll grow tired of limbo and make the choice to file for D.
2) She'll eventually get over her waywardness and come back to the MR.

How long 2 takes is anybody's guess, but WWs/WAWs have been known to remain in limbo for years. It also will depend on what you do. In fact, if you ever get to the point of 1, that may be the trigger she needs to come back to the MR. The question is will you be over it by then and not want her to come back. That happens.

RR17, limbo is terrible so I know how you feel. In many ways I am still in a bit of limbo myself, though she seems to be doing the work and has stated she wants to stay in the MR.

Yep, I believe the deadline is used like some kind of weapon against me. I've felt this from the beginning. Much in the way many Ws withhold sex. A point of leverage or bargaining tool. A way to maintain power.
Not a healthy way to have a relationship.

Still holding, still living like friendly roommates.

IC ended Tuesday.

C likes that fact that W and I have started the ritual of watching rerun episodes of the Sopranos on a regular base. Usually one or two episodes depending on the night and time available. Like friends. W seems to look forward to these times.

We started out as friends 23 years ago. Surprisingly I don't read so much into it. C says and I have read that going back to courting phase is not unusual. I'm not will to accept that we are there. W yammers on about her day and what that idiot at work said and I listen and validate. Last time it was consensually mostly about me. Now it is about her. According to IC.
I'm looking for a recon and W that experiences some sort of loss. Piecing etc.

I continue to detach in some ways, yet we make time for Tony and his murderous friends on a regular basis. The first run of these episodes was shortly after we got M. Perhaps it is cathardic.

Monday morning when schedules were permitting I texted from my upstairs bedroom "Do you want to come up?" W responded "Not this morning".
Knowing I should have dropped it there I didn't, I responded with "Do you want me to stop asking you?" W said, "I don't know".
Suprising, I didn't respond and let it drop there.
Who know's what that all even means? I guess I am growing because unlike the past, I'm not jumping to any real conclusions.

Now, I am pondering ways to possibly pull back a little more.

So W and I are heading to a morning car show. Yes, I told her about it. I didn't come out and ask her to go, she said she wouldn't mind going. Point is, she seems to want to spend time with me.

Am I making a mistake if healthy recon is my objective?

I have learned what I believe to be a much healthier level of Detachment as is often described here. "Differentiation of Self" is a term often used or Autonomy. A concept or skill or state that I have learned the importance of. Something that will hopefully help me regardless of what may come of my M.

R,

It is ok as long as you do not read anything into it. She still most likely wants a D.

Originally Posted By: LH19

R,

It is ok as long as you do not read anything into it. She still most likely wants a D.

Well, I'm open to this possibility. It doesn't fit in the DB concept of Never Give up. Why would I or W want to invest in an R that is coming to a close?

Perhaps she is cake eating. I don't sense it. In the past I have, but not lately. Lately, I sense genuine desire to spend time together. Increased respect.

Perhaps due to Ws observation of changes in me? IDK

Either way, I proceed with caution. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

I have never heard of that as a DB concept.

Can't spot it on Sandi rules?

V

Originally Posted By: Vanilla

I have never heard of that as a DB concept.

Can't spot it on Sandi rules?

V

For clarification: You've never heard of not giving up?

If I've got it wrong, please elaborate.

Monday mornings are sometimes tough. Back in the routine and imaginations and suspicions flair.
I know I'm not supposed to care.

Detachment is a process with peak and valleys.

I get very little response to my posts and although I'm not sure why I'm sure it is my own doing.

So I will continue to journal.

So Monday nights both W and I attend separate Bible studies. Tonight was the last night of a 30 week study of Romans. BSF is a great in depth program that I have attended for 10 years now. Anyhow it was a touching night where my group of men, mostly older than I, shared how our group had touched their lives.

Anyway, Mondays are designed so that I get home after W and immediate before my structured bedtime. So I come home and W is in her downstairs bedroom and greets me. She remembers that it is our last night and asked how it went. I briefly explain and ask how her group was. She takes the opportunity to expand on how one of the ladies speaks out of turn and how she has been spoken to about it yet doesn't seem to listen. A few women are so turned off that they may leave etc...

This from a W that rarely had much to say about these type things in our 20 years to gather. Who knows why?
She sure does seem happy to share and although it is somewhat unfamiliar, I think it is good for her.

Today I have reflected on the fact that this morning was a bad place for me. Why? Because I snooped and jumped to conclusions based on less than concrete evidence that she was hiding something. I realized that it was nonconclusive yet it put me in a bad way until I got engaged in Bible study and was distracted from this awfulizing rumination.

I am reminded that God has me exactly where I am supposed to be.

Whatever it is that is going on behind my back or not going on, it doesn't change my plan.

I need to pull away. I need to focus on RR17 and ignore the M for a while. I have done this but I need to recommit and step it up.

Crazy ideas of forcing some sort of R convo are a bad idea. I don't get to know what happens next. No R conversation initiated by me will answer these questions anyway and risk aggravating the situation, at least in the short term.

Nobody here knows what W is thinking. Especially since they hear one side of the stories. There is a lot of valuable info here. Situations are hauntingly similar but people are still unique.

One thing that I woke up with this morning at 4am. My rational mind says let it go and my heart says to let it be heard.

Several weeks ago I brought home a fish and tank for my D15 that a friend was getting rid of as his family leaves the country. She had expressed that she wanted a pet like this. I set it up and would jokingly ask her how he was.

Well she, as teens often do decides she didn't want to mess with the fish and gave it away this weekend. I discovered this yesterday.
Last night during the above-mentioned convo I mentioned the fish to W.
She said "Yea, I told her I didn't want anything to do with it, it was between her and her father".
I jokingly replied "I'm getting used to having things done behind my back" She jokingly made a sneer back. No biggy.

So fast forward to this morning and I wake up with the feeling that her passive involvement was unacceptable. And how I need to express this. Now I know it is just a darn fish and I didn't care if she didn't want it. But my ego told me that it was just another show of disrespect.

I'm not going to use it against her although I would like to. Thanks for listening.

RR,

My W was passive aggressive and she would often use sex as a weapon. I tried to reach out many times many way. She still shot me down I was hurt and shut down. I never stopped loving her tho. I still don't understand why women do this and I may never. Hope things work out with you!

Originally Posted By: RR17

I get very little response to my posts and although I'm not sure why I'm sure it is my own doing.

Well, you don't really talk much about your sitch other that stuff like "W seems happy" and you don't ask questions, so you're not leaving us much to respond to!

Originally Posted By: RR17

I jokingly replied "I'm getting used to having things done behind my back" She jokingly made a sneer back. No biggy.

So fast forward to this morning and I wake up with the feeling that her passive involvement was unacceptable. And how I need to express this. Now I know it is just a darn fish and I didn't care if she didn't want it. But my ego told me that it was just another show of disrespect.

If I understand correctly, you just brought the tank home and set it up without consulting W about it? So now you view her lack of buy-in as disrespect? She probably finds it disrespectful that you just brought it home without telling her though, right?

Quote:

If I understand correctly, you just brought the tank home and set it up without consulting W about it? So now you view her lack of buy-in as disrespect? She probably finds it disrespectful that you just brought it home without telling her though, right?

You're correct, I didn't discuss bringing it home. She didn't seem to care, but you have a point. I never considered that it might be retaliation.
The disrespect is telling my daughter that she was out of it and not telling me that D15 was regifting the tank.

How is that disrespect?

Your daughter wanted to regift something you gave her. Your wife told her that was between your daughter and you. Seems perfectly reasonable. Why is that something your wife needs to get involved with?

Because she knew it was going on behind my back. Passive participation. I would have told her if the shoe was on the other foot.

Not a big deal anymore. At the time it was just one more thing and it bothered me.

Hey RR one thing I've learned and it took me a long time was to pick your battles. Don't let every little ting get to you. It means standing up for principal then I would most likely say yes but for small stuff don't sweat it. There's actually a book out there I read called Don't sweat the small stuff- It's all small stuff. Good Luck RR

Wolf, I agree. That's why I didn't make it a battle. I brought it here to vent.

I still don't understand why you think your wife did anything wrong in this situation, even something small.

You brought home a pet without consulting either your wife or the person you were expecting to take are of the pet.

After a few weeks, your daughter decides she doesn't want the responsibility of a pet and gives it away to a friend. Nothing wrong with that.

Your daughter decides not to tell you until after the fact. Why is that? Did she suspect that you would try to control her or act badly about her decision?

The fact that you were upset about this and vented here seems to support that idea, as does your comment that it happened behind your back. Why did you feel you needed to be informed or consulted? You did either of those when you brought the fish into the house.

It's as if you expect to be granted more consideration than you extend to your wife and daughter.

Rose your conjecture is unfounded. Perhaps you don't understand? Nor did you ask?

D15 expressed that she wanted a turtle. I surprised her with a fish. She's 15 and it didn't require an effort from W. W didn't express any dissatisfaction.
D15 never told me that she gave it away. I just discovered it. Much like I discovered my Ws A 3 years ago.

If you don't understand the rest, it doesn't appear that you care to.

I don't see where your post is kind or helpful.

As stated earlier I have moved on from the fish story. It bothered me. Perhaps it triggered memories of betrayal.

I shared.

I didn't wage a war. I vented here.

It's over.

I wasn't trying to be unkind. I was trying to help you think about why you reacted as you did to behavior from your wife and daughter that seems perfectly fine and normal and not disrespectful.

Clearly, I'm not helping, so I'll stop posting to your thread.

You see Rose, it did seem disrespectful to me.

Quote:

Rose your conjecture is unfounded. Perhaps you don't understand? Nor did you ask?

If you don't understand the rest, it doesn't appear that you care to.

I don't see where your post is kind or helpful.

Wow! Maybe this is an example of why you don't get more responses?

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Quote:

Rose your conjecture is unfounded. Perhaps you don't understand? Nor did you ask?

If you don't understand the rest, it doesn't appear that you care to.

I don't see where your post is kind or helpful.

Wow! Maybe this is an example of why you don't get more responses?

Did it seem kind or helpful to you?

Originally Posted By: RR17

Rose your conjecture is unfounded. Perhaps you don't understand? Nor did you ask?

D15 expressed that she wanted a turtle. I surprised her with a fish. She's 15 and it didn't require an effort from W. W didn't express any dissatisfaction.
D15 never told me that she gave it away. I just discovered it. Much like I discovered my Ws A 3 years ago.

If you don't understand the rest, it doesn't appear that you care to.

I don't see where your post is kind or helpful.

RR17, I have to say, this reaction to Rose is a little troubling.

However, related to the sitch, It seems your beef should be with your daughter. "You should have spoken to me before giving your fish away."

I think your anger towards your W is misplaced. That you want to find fault with her. Your situation is such that I think it is unrealistic for you to expect her to handle the situation the way you would expect a W in a healthy marriage to handle it.

Anyway, I think you may should just take a deep breath and realize that in 5 years this fish thing won't matter one bit. As LoneWolf said, pick your battles.

P.S. I think the answer to the problem is found in your own statement in the post dealing with this: "But my ego told me that it was just another show of disrespect."

Hint: Starts with an 'e' and ends with an 'o'.

As stated earlier I have moved on from the fish story. It bothered me. Perhaps it triggered memories of betrayal.

I shared.

I didn't wage a war. I vented here.

It's over.

Ok, so you don't want any responses related to it. Got it.

RR17, I would ask you to please use this as a self-examination opportunity. Is there anything in your behavior in these responses that could point to similar behaviors you've exhibited in the past that have contributed to your current situation?

Not looking for you to respond. Just food for thought.

Moving on, we are now 2 weeks out from the arbitrary deadline, any movement from your wife that suggests she is preparing to move out on the 18th?

Peace brother.

Thanks, Steve point taken.

Quote:

RR17, I would ask you to please use this as a self-examination opportunity. Is there anything in your behavior in these responses that could point to similar behaviors you've exhibited in the past that have contributed to your current situation?

If you are referring to defending my feelings that I brought them here to vent instead of voicing them to my W, I would say no.

It is hard to read intention or tone when writing in a forum like this. I find it helpful to ask questions when I assume anything damning or pointed.
Often I find that there is something I just didn't understand or misread.

I did feel that bringing this sitch here and vetting was a better choice than dumping on my W. I also felt that I had to defend my feelings.

I do expect this forum to be supportive, obviously not in all wrongful actions, but perhaps understanding about feelings and insecurities. I have seen indications of this in the past.

As for the W and this deadline. No, I have seen no movement. None, on the contrary, I have seen a continued respect and an increase in her desire to do things together.

More confusion and ambiguity.

BTW, the arbitrary deadline is just May of 2018, not 5/18/18.

Okay, question:

Lately, as I GAL, I have been taking stock in my recent years. Things leading to where I am today. In order to improve, one has to know where they are and know how you got there, right?

Well, a quick background. My industry is closely attached to the real estate market. In my first 14 years of my career, I was a high producing achiever. I was entrenched and in addition to providing a very good standard of living for my young growing family, my sense of self was largely derived from this level of success. (as is with most males)
Here in the US when the recession hit it was as if the lights were turned out. I immediately began working even harder only there were little to no results. I am now aware of the fact that this had a profound affect on my emotional well being. In fact, I wasn't even aware until my FIL told W he felt it had hit me very hard. Until I heard this I had no idea. I still didn't accept it. I was depressed. It lasted a long time. That was years ago.

Fast forward to 2013. The market has turned the corner and is at least conducive to making a decent Living again. I had the opportunity to regain face and self-esteem.
That was when it hit. I discovered Ws EA in a traumatic and surprising way. Right or wrong it hit me hard, harder than losing my mother. I suffered panic attacks. Experienced a couple more discoveries while going to MC, IC. I felt like I was in the fight of my life. I need to save my marriage and fix my W. (yes, I now know this was the wrong attitude.) Another attack on my sense of self. All before DR and this group. This greatly affected my desire and drive to achieve.
During IC it was suggested that I may be experiencing low-level chronic depression. This was not a formal diagnosis. But it did get me to thinking. Regardless, when I had a chance to regain my mojo, I was hit with a WW and then a WAW or whatever, add to that losing my father. It was a lot of grief.

I so desire to communicate this to my W.

I'm sure the answer is never, but is there ever a right time to explain this to her?

BTW, I realize many people have stuff happen and much worse than mine. I share this not for sympathy, but insight.

Originally Posted By: RR17

I so desire to communicate this to my W.

I'm sure the answer is never, but is there ever a right time to explain this to her?

I tried reading your post a few times but I'm still not clear on what you want to communicate to your W, is it that you may be in depression? In the end it's up to you what you want to share with her, but just don't expect it to change your situation. A lot of LBS's pour their hearts out to the WAS after BD to try and show her they can be the sharing, sensitive husband that she felt like she didn't have, but the problem with that is the WAS is really quite done after BD and really doesn't care to hear it all. They usually think "too little too late" and may even think "wow when did he become so pathetic and needy." That said, something like clinical depression is a serious health issue and personally I don't think it hurts to let those around you know about it, including your WAS. As long as you share it with her on an informational basis, not with the hopes of bringing her back. Does that make sense?

It does make sense. The last thing I want to come across as is pathetic and needy. And yes I would like to explain that the changes were most probably depression. The tricky part is that she caused the second wave. Communicating that without sounding condemning is a challenge.

My journey started several years ago at the discovery. I was suddenly pathetic and needy and you, for the most part, described Ws reaction. My IC said I need to become vulnerable and that appeared pathetic and needy. Luckily it was a 180 from the man she had known for so many years. I have recovered.

I do understand that a happy well adjusted and confident H is a lot more attractive and I believe GAL etc. has helped me regain that.

I would like to explain what I believe happened. Her current state is a mystery. She seems happy. Likes to do things together. Enjoys more activities with girlfriends.

We are like friendly neighbor roommates that co-parent and have sex on occasion. San open affection.

So today while expressing a dissatisfaction with the fact that W wasn't responding to a question that I asked 26 hours earlier. A question that she agreed to think about and get back to me about. Based on past experience I expected that she would never answer the question.

We end up having an R talk. Well sort of. She claimed that she had been in a separate bedroom for months and didn't plan on staying here forever.
I replayed: "Oh when do you plan on leaving?"
She got angry and exclaimed that she had told me three times and that I didn't hear her.
My replay was that because her actions didn't aline with her words contradicting each other and that I struggled to believe her words.

W: Why, simply because I have been nice?
M: No, much more than just nice. You have shown more respect and consideration than I have seen in 10 years. You seem to like to spend more time with me.

This seemed to set her back. She appeared to be stopped and pondering this statement.

Then, as usual, she said she had to go pick up my D15 from a friend's.

Latter I committed a carnal DB sin. On Facebook, it popped up from 9 years ago on this day. That I was so thankful that I was married to my best friend.

I forwarded this in a private message. Of course, she didn't reply.

Why did you do that

Trying to provoke a response or recommitment

When does achool end

Has she made any concrete plans to move out

If you ignore her words

Seems like she acta like she does not know what she wants

Lots of mixed signals

What do you want now

Why did you do that
Good question
Trying to provoke a response or recommitment
Yes
When does achool end
5/25/18
Has she made any concrete plans to move out
None that I have seen. Yes I'm paying attention.
If you ignore her words

Seems like she acta like she does not know what she wants
I agree.
Lots of mixed signals

What do you want now
Answers. Ultimately full and proper reconciliation.

Well I'm admitting my screw-ups, I want to also point out my well-executed endeavours.

W went to bible study tonight. Mines ended for the Summer. I took D15 for a long ride to listen to music and smoke a cigar.

When W came home at 9pm. The lights downstairs were off. I heard her call out expecting someone to be waiting up and welcome her. No welcome.

I was upstairs responding on here, to others threads when I heard a knock at the door. I said come in. She let me know that my windows and sunroof were open. I thanked her. I think she expected that I suggest an episode of a series that we have been working through before bed. I said nothing.

She also seemed to be trying to catch my attention in a few other ways.(maybe my imagination) for which I paid no attention.

From now on when she passes braless I will only make eye contact if at all, if you know what I mean.

Originally Posted By: RR17

Well I'm admitting my screw-ups, I want to also point out my well-executed endeavours.

W went to bible study tonight. Mines ended for the Summer. I took D15 for a long ride to listen to music and smoke a cigar.

When W came home at 9pm. The lights downstairs were off. I heard her call out expecting someone to be waiting up and welcome her. No welcome.

I was upstairs responding on here, to others threads when I heard a knock at the door. I said come in. She let me know that my windows and sunroof were open. I thanked her. I think she expected that I suggest an episode of a series that we have been working through before bed. I said nothing.

She also seemed to be trying to catch my attention in a few other ways.(maybe my imagination) for which I paid no attention.

From now on when she passes braless I will only make eye contact if at all, if you know what I mean.

Funny you say that! Early in my sitch I noticed that my W, when I did detach properly, suddenly would change in front of me. After weeks of not being naked in front of me on purpose. (SOmething I didn't notice until BD.) Maybe it was coincidental, but when I had been really diligent at detachment and did well and lovingly, she suddenly had no problem being completely naked in front of me. Maybe she didn't even realize it, and it was a subconscious "I need to hook him again" thing. Or maybe it was completely conscious.

Steve, you say early. I'm nearly 5 years in since first BD.

Yea, it is odd. She began closing doors etc and once I move away, the doors are either cracked or wide open. I doubt it is all coincidence.
Some may be exaggerated imagination, but not all.

It kind of pisses me off. If you want to push me away. Go ahead. But I don't need the confusion.
I am trying to wrap my head around turning down sex if she initiates. I will need prayers.

Originally Posted By: RR17

Steve, you say early. I'm nearly 5 years in since first BD.

Yea, it is odd. She began closing doors etc and once I move away, the doors are either cracked or wide open. I doubt it is all coincidence.
Some may be exaggerated imagination, but not all.

It kind of pisses me off. If you want to push me away. Go ahead. But I don't need the confusion.
I am trying to wrap my head around turning down sex if she initiates. I will need prayers.

RR17, yeah, I know most here question our timing. But remember, my BD was initiated by me, not her. I don't think she had completely moved on to the "I am going to drop the bomb and walkaway" state when I caught on to things. If things had gone on a few more weeks or months it would have and that would have been an entirely different starting point.

Don't get me wrong, obviously there is still work to be done, and we are both working on it with the help of the MC.

RR

5 years marathon man

I am 2 years and it feels like forever

Yes they do sometimes try to make us look twice when we ignore them

You cannot control what she does

You can only control you

Does she know what you want

Does she refuse to provide answers

Or do you not discuss it

In terms of full and proper reconciliation

I am learning it sometimes takes longer and is messier

The success stories are nice

But if you read blu wave or storm chaser

The reality of reconciliation is not easy

What are you doing for mother day

Originally Posted By: Steve85

Funny you say that! Early in my sitch I noticed that my W, when I did detach properly, suddenly would change in front of me. After weeks of not being naked in front of me on purpose. (SOmething I didn't notice until BD.) Maybe it was coincidental, but when I had been really diligent at detachment and did well and lovingly, she suddenly had no problem being completely naked in front of me. Maybe she didn't even realize it, and it was a subconscious "I need to hook him again" thing. Or maybe it was completely conscious.

For the weeks spanning Oct-Dec of 17' my WW did this also. She had shut down sexually but i noticed she was changing in front of me a lot more often than she had in the past, and she wasn't even living with me at this point. Just stopping off at the house to get clothes when she needed to, and she would often go there when she thought i wouldn't be home. Makes me think she took OM into our MB on more than one occasion. gross.

But i also wondered if the changing in front of me thing was subconscious or deliberate.

5 years marathon man
Some times it seemed like it was over but because I hadn't read DB untill a year ago, I never required proper recon. I am convinced that without a loss and remorse, all will prolong.
I am 2 years and it feels like forever
I feel your pain
Yes they do sometimes try to make us look twice when we ignore them
Silly games. It is as if they all collaborate on their methods
You cannot control what she does
I heard this early in my journey, but it took time to sink in. I discovered Control issues within myself. We can damn sure prolong the process
You can only control you

Does she know what you want
I have stated in the past. But now, who knows? Until she cares, it really doesn't seem to matter.
Does she refuse to provide answers
Unless you consider " I don't know" an answer?
Or do you not discuss it
Discussing only leads to an argument. I avoid if possable
In terms of full and proper reconciliation

I am learning it sometimes takes longer and is messier
I sometimes wonder if moving out would expedite things
The success stories are nice

But if you read blu wave or storm chaser

The reality of reconciliation is not easy

What are you doing for mother day
I will suport my D15 efforts, but she is not my mother

Quote:

For the weeks spanning Oct-Dec of 17' my WW did this also. She had shut down sexually but i noticed she was changing in front of me a lot more often than she had in the past, and she wasn't even living with me at this point. Just stopping off at the house to get clothes when she needed to, and she would often go there when she thought i wouldn't be home. Makes me think she took OM into our MB on more than one occasion. gross.

But i also wondered if the changing in front of me thing was subconscious or deliberate.

Why do you think it stopped?

Originally Posted By: RR17

Why do you think it stopped?

Because I moved out of our apartment on New Years eve, and we only saw each other for about 2 weeks after that.
Jan 24th she trumped up a BS restraining order on me, and I haven't seen, spoken to, texted or emailed her since then.

I haven't seen or heard hide nor hair of my wife in over 100 days.

Sorry to hear that Orange.

I sometimes wonder if living separately would expedite the process. Then again being around each other keeps us front of mindish.

Separate seems like it could make it easier on the LBS so why wouldn't it be easier for WW/WAW? Who knows?

Somethings brewing:

So Friday morning are one of the highest probabilities of getting laid. D15 get a ride to school and W has an extra hour.

Well, nothing going this morning. She seems to be dodging me and that's fine as I told her last time that she refused me that I was leaving the ball in her court. Then suddenly this morning she stops me and says that D15 is spending the night at my sister's house and did I want to go out for dinner. She said it and didn't seem so modestly concerned with where my eyes might travel as she has in the recent past while wearing her PJs. Forgive my salacious description as I felt it pertinent to the story.

I told her that sounded fine.

Now my dilemma.

[list]
[*]Do I read anything into this?
[*]Should I resist the temptation for the good of DBing, either by coming up with last minute reasons that I can't go?
[*]Should I go, but in the event that she tries to initiate. Say that I have been working on some things in myself and that it wouldn.t seem right? (Could I even execute this plan?)

My fear is that we go and I start to read something into it only to be disappointed and therefore angered.

My wish? In addition to wanting to be able to do the work that gets the long-term result of recon, is to understand what is going on in her head. She is not the type to play games, yet a lot of her actions have surprised me in recent times.

RR17, couple of observations.

A) you are already reading too much into this so tread lightly. Likely she is going to hedge on her 5/2018 move, and she is going to lay the groundwork for doing that without losing face. That doesn't mean she will give up on her goal or dream or fantasy of moving out. She is starting to show some of the signs my wife did after her get a job, get an apartment, get a D fantasy bubble began to burst. You want to tread lightly here to not push her back into that bubble.

B) You are still thinking you are dealing with her as she used to be: "She is not the type to play games" Yeah, mine wasn't the type to send nude photos to ANYBODY let alone a total stranger over the internet. Our WWs/WAWs are not the women we knew before all of this happened. So yes, keep the chance that she is playing you about something open. It will probably come up shortly after anything that happens with dinner and afterwards.

C) Enjoy tonight if it happens, but DO NOT READ ANYTHING INTO IT. And wait for the other shoe to drop.

Oh, and yes I would go. Nothing wrong with a dinner date. Just try to be detached. Lovingly meaning you are upbeat, positive, responsive, and validating. Pretend you are going to dinner with a stranger. Be friendly but not overly intimate.

What happens after is up to you. If she offers what you think she is going to, and you want to, go for it. Just see C above!

Thank Steve. I hate that this seems all about sex. To me, it is more about the meaning behind the actions leading up.

I'm not worried about her moving out threat, dream or whatever it is. I have seen no signs of this.

I might add that she left for work and her bedroom door was left wide open. No, I'm not reading too much into it. But is worthy of taking note of.

I just read
Sandi's post on how she chose to show respect to her H prior to getting the feeling back. Very insightful.

I have seen an increase in a show of respect in the last several months that continued even after pointing it out to W. Again FWIW, not reading too much.

DB tells you to pay attention to changes. Monitor progress and listen to what your W is really saying.
It also says dodn't read too much into what you hear or see. IDK

On your last point, you've been with this woman a longtime. So likely you can detect when she might not be being honest. I know that my wife has a way of saying no to something when the answer is really yes that reveals that the no is either soft or flat out not a no.

When I noticed she had lost weight last fall I jokingly said, "Are you going to leave me?" She said "No." with the body language that meant, "I am telling you no to save your feelings." Truth is by that point she was already feeling pangs of wanting to leave the marriage. Of course at the time I ignored it. I got the verbal answer I wanted so I buried the body language in the sand. Looking back I could see that her "I am telling you what you want to hear" body language was there. Even worse, the body language was almost like a "No, I wish I could but I don't see a way to leave."

So when we DB well, those that have been with our spouse for over 15, or 20 years can usually tell if their responses are genuine or not. I know earlier in my sitch she answered a lot of questions with the soft answer body language. My wife is a big of a Nice Girl. She will put others feeling and needs ahead of their own especially if she feels they deserve it. So she wants to answer your question in a way to spare your feelings.

From BD until about mid-Feb, there were times when she remembered she didn't think I deserved my feelings and needs to be above her so she was blunt. But there was a a lot of soft answers as she started noticing my changes.

new thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2789507#Post2789507