Long-time lurker, first time poster here. Got finally inspiration to write my story at least to vent a bit and hopefully also to be able to give & get some peer support
First time I hit the DB community few months ago, but last days I have been reading your stories very intensively. The good spirit and all personal experiences have encouraged me deeply I am not here alone. What a great and wise people you have here!
Me and my wife got married at 2003, both at the age of 24. I have to say looking back these almost 15 years, they have gone fast! There has been some unbelievably beautiful moments, such as birth of our son and daughter and also great memories with W, but also unfortunately many issues and resentment. Despite of the problems we had, I was committed to our marriage and had a dream of us growing old together and being a family until the end. Hence, it was The biggest disappointment in my life to understand that my W do not feel the same way anymore and wants to continue her journey alone.
I should have seen it coming though, I got all the warning signs over the years but I did not just believe she would really leave. That being one of my biggest mistakes over the years taken her for granted. I have actually made a long list of my mistakes during our marriage that has driven us to this point: I did not made her feel loved & appreciated, I lacked in emotional connection, neglected her feelings and was not comfortable being physically near to start with. Maybe someone of you thinks I deserve to be alone after being such of a husband and honestly, I have blamed myself to the level of torture. However, I have tried to practice forgiveness towards myself. And even I understand that my wife had a part to play in our marriage as well (I did not feel accepted and respected either), I have decided not to focus to any of her faults but to take 100% responsibility of my own actions. I do not believe anymore the classical 50%/50% setup, but rather take a model from a soccer team if they want to win: you canīt score if the other team has the ball you need to take 100% responsibility of your own game.
As I have been trying to understand the pattern where we went wrong in the first place, I have come across with the term cycle of conflict, which as I understand is quite common root-cause in many martial problems. Looking back, I see this pattern repeating itself in our communication: W addressed some concern of our marriage which I took as complaint and pulled myself back. When I withdrew myself, W was more concerned of our marriage and drew back even more. Vicious cycle was in place to contaminate the relationship.
Regrettably I never understood the cycle of conflict as a potential root-cause, nor did I understand how it supposedly led to the neglecting I described above. In my eyes we only argued of everyday problems but obviously the reasons were deeper. Not even marriage counselling ever focused to any cause, it was only about trying to solve effects, i.e. who said what and how
. Anyways, since I wanted our marriage to work better, I tried to implement the changes I thought she wanted me to do based in her feedback --> since I travelled a lot for work when kids were small so I cut the time with friends to zero to maximise time home (mistake), or since she felt that our life spins around me I started let her to initiate almost everything in our daily life (mistake), and so on.
Nothing helped in making us functioning as a loving team, so my wife decided to mentally check-out from marriage at the summer 2016. We still tried to figure things out until summer 2017 when I really understood that she is truly leaving. Getting this felt like nightmare and I admit I did everything wrong in the beginning (1-2 months of sexy clinging). Finally at July/August 2017 I started my process of letting go and GALling meeting friends, going to gym etc. Detaching is not easy though and I truly wish that we could reconcile, although Iīm prepared to continue my adventure alone and as a better man. As of Jan 2018 we rented an apartment where we alternate every other week with W so that kids could stay at their home. We also started emotionally focused therapy 1/week and even my hopes are high it could enable us to attach emotionally, I afraid there is too much damage done for a fresh start.
ATM the biggest challenge in DBing for me is to adjust the level of contact. Since she feels that she needs space I obviously do not want to smother her, but on the other hand cause she felt neglected in the marriage Iīm afraid that going too much dark will send the wrong message as well.
I have explained to her that Iīm very committed for a new beginning, but also want to let her feel how her life would feel without me.
Iīm sorry for a meandering post. Wanted to include enough background what brought me here - still I feel I only could scratch the surface
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Dears,
It has been one of my biggest fears to find out my wife would have an PA(or EA) - only an idea of my wife with OM feels just devastating. My W always adjured me to immediately tell her if I would have any kind of A (never had), since not knowing would have been so humiliating for her. Therefore I think it makes it even more disrespectful if she does something behind my back knowing how humiliating that would feel for me.
Of course I have suspected an A during our martial problems (especially after last summer), but when I have asked if she has an OM she naturally denied. Until this morning I was inclined to believe that, since we moved back to our home country from work assignment just recently and once we were at the host country, she did not have that big social network and possibilities to cheat. And know when we are back home after 3.5 years abroad, feels like she havenīt had the time to develop A just this fast. Furthermore she has always said(until just recently) that she needs emotional connection for sex, itīs hard for me to think she has that created with anyone at back home just yet. Or maybe WW does not need the emotional connection for sex with OM, what do you think?
Before what I found this morning my wife had these classical WAW/WW/MLC symptoms:
-Parties a lot more with younger co-workers or divorced friends
-Plastic surgery
-Tattoo below breasts
-paying more attention to dressing/make-up
-Works out intensively
-Rebellious action/thoughts
-lotīs at SoMe
-protecting phone
We still get intimate (I initiate) once on a while (once a month?) when we have our date nights. Week ago we had date and were intimate and AFTER ML my wife mentioned she bought condoms since she didnīt have any other birth control ATM. I thought this was odd, since she never bought them before, but did not say anything.
But still that made me thinking more the possibility of an A. So this morning I snooped a bit and found some sex toys from W closet, like BDSM collar and coc* ring!! Everything inside me turned upside down and my hands started shaking. I was about to call my W right away and confront her. BUT - she could say that she bought them for us (for date night) and I do not have other evidence. everything seemed used though, and definitely not by me.... Also, W NEVER bought anything like that in our M, actually we had VERY sex starved MR. That aspect actually hurts me even more if possible - that my W pushed me away for almost 15 years(due to lacking emotional connection), but then all of a sudden she would start to buy sex toys for extra martial relationship. Have anyone else experienced this?
What do you think, should I confront W with this evidence or wait for more? I think I could try to find the condoms and see if they are used, but most likely donīt find them... If I ask, guess W denies everything. Iīm pretty sure she has not told anyone of her friends either, so no benefit in asking them either.
Would you recommend me to snoop more or wait that it comes up?
This is most hurtful thing ever happened if itīs true, might hurt even more that the fact my wants to leave...
I would be very thankful of any thoughts or similar experiences!
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Hopefully you have read my first post and the homework.
Thanks,
I have read first post and homework, lots of helpful threads.
What I forgot to mention in first post in this thread is that all these toys I found were in a same small bag that my W has had with her recently.
Nothing in packages but opened and seems like also used. Guess itīs quite uncommon to use these kind of equipements alone, huoh...
I feel quite numb, and as mentioned in last post, my W never seemed interested in these kind of activities in marriage, she just wanted to feel emotionally connected when intimate in marriage.
Letīs see what tomorrow brings...
Cadet,
Could you please change thread name to "Suspect PA - should I confront with this evidence?" or then position post #2779821 in itīs own thread as I intended in the beginning?
Cadet,
Could you please change thread name to "Suspect PA - should I confront with this evidence?" or then position post #2779821 in itīs own thread as I intended in the beginning?
OK
Hi GettinT, glad you finally decided to tell your story. Sadly, too many M's suffer from cycles of conflict. If the couple cannot get the help they need in correcting it, they will live together in misery, or they S/D. First, I want to tell you that your M can be saved. Yes, it will be very challenging, and there appears to be some very serious issues with your W. However, it is possible to change yourself, thus changing your influence on the M status.
I think you are off to a good start by completely owning your part of the breakdown in the MR. I want to also add something else. You can only take responsibility for your part. Many nice guys want to make things right by accepting responsibility for themselves.....plus responsibility for the W's part. It's similar to the H who knows his W is angry at him, and he has no clue as to what it's about. But what does he do? He apologizes to her. He doesn't even know what he's apologizing for, but he just wants peace between them again. Unfortunately, many nice-guy H's will take 100% responsibility for the breakdown in their MR......b/c in the back of their mind, they think it will promote reconciliation of he tells her everything was his fault. Truth is that it doesn't help.......the situation, or her, unless she was 100% blameless. In most cases, she isn't completely blameless.
I think it is healthy in choosing not to focus on your W's faults, just as long as you aren't trying to take responsibility for her bad decisions/actions. For now I'll just say that it is very important that the wayward W takes responsibility for her part, or she will forever blame her H for everything wrong in the M.....and she will hold on to past grievances. Reconciliation of the hearts won't happen as long as she can put all the blame on him and thinks she is blameless. The cycles of conflict will continue, b/c as long as she is not required to take responsibility for herself.......her heart will remain hardened and closed to her H. She must reach the point where (1) she takes ownership for her wayward mindset and her actions; (2) feels remorse for what she has done; (3) is able to let go of all the resentment of issues in the past; (4) is able to forgive you; (5) and, humbly asks for your forgiveness. She is probably a long way from any of those 5 things for a while. It will take time for her to reach that place, just as it's going to take time for you to make lasting changes in yourself.
I have actually made a long list of my mistakes during our marriage that has driven us to this point: I did not made her feel loved & appreciated, I lacked in emotional connection, neglected her feelings and was not comfortable being physically near to start with
.
Okay, it's good that you are able to see your own mistakes. Can you set goals that will help you change, and not repeat the same same mistakes? Just as an example, would seeing an IC help to figure out why you lacked in emotional connection, and why you felt uncomfortable being physically near her? Maybe you could take a class/course in how to communicate with women......mainly a wife. Research what women need the most in a MR. Read books about the difference in the male and female makeup (very interesting and helpful). Learn about the basic love languages everyone has, and how to speak in her LL. See what I mean?
Everyone has emotional needs. Not knowing exactly what her EN are, could hinder doing anything to fill them, in all likelihood. You can google something like....."what are the wife's emotional needs", and you would probably get basic information, at least. Most women have close to the same
basic EN. As a man learns more about his W as an individual, he should learn her unique EN that come from her personal psyche. He should know personal issues such as....if she has body image issues; experiences low self-esteem, experienced abandonment or neglect from a parent; etc. IMHO, when EN are met by the spouse, and LL are spoken from the spouse.......that MR is going to have one happy spouse, at least. When it's a two-way street.....you've practically got heaven! But, let's keep it real, it is not always as simple as it may sound, b/c people in relationships are more complexed.
When either spouse goes for years without their EN being met in the MR, they are stand to be more vulnerable to inappropriate influences. I talk about the WW b/c that is what I have observed and understand the most. Her wayward mindset starts with resentment, and then, disrespect. She eventually rebels. Her actions are motivated by total selfishness. Everything is about her! If she does not benefit in some way......she's not on board. Maybe your W was wayward before you M her, IDK. I think in most cases, it comes later when she has experienced unmet EN, in some cases unmet physical needs, has unresolved past issues with her H, unforgivness, etc. She pushes this stuff down in her heart and it plants seeds of resentment toward her H. It isn't long until disrespect is hand in hand with the resentment. Then it begins to show in her words, her attitude, facial expressions, and behavior. When she goes into full rebellion against her H and MR..........she often behaves like Girls Gone Wild. She may jump from one man to another. She has become someone her H no longer recognizes. She is not the same girl that he married.
Until this morning I was inclined to believe that, since we moved back to our home country from work assignment just recently and once we were at the host country, she did not have that big social network and possibilities to cheat. And know when we are back home after 3.5 years abroad, feels like she havenīt had the time to develop A just this fast.
As long as there are Internet apps, it will be easy, and fast, to enter into an EA/PA. I'm not talking about Hollywood's movie version of "An Affair to Remember". I'm talking about what we are seeing in our society of phone apps and quick access to anyone in the world.......with face to face (maybe not skin on skin) camera action. Unlike when a couple meets and start dating and building a loving relationship and reach the point they are ready to commit to a MR, or even a long term relationship.........an affair stems mostly from lust, and emotional stimulation. When one or both affair partners are M to other people, they usually are looking for something that was missing in the MR (and that's giving them too much credit). The affair partners usually do not wait to build a relationship, they settle for a pseudo relationsip, at best. They just go straight for the thrill. The thrill comes b/c it is taboo. When a person is M, it is inappropriate to have sex talks, send naked photos, or text all hours into the night with anyone other than the spouse. People these days cover the affair, when they are suspected, and claim to be "just friends". (That's just a few highlights). It's the "secret" and the sense of "naughtiness" that becomes intoxicating. Affairs are very addictive. It's not always the affair partner that is addictive.....it's the thrill. That's why when one affair partner falls by the wayside, another affair partner is found very quickly.
We still get intimate (I initiate) once on a while (once a month?) when we have our date nights. Week ago we had date and were intimate and AFTER ML my wife mentioned she bought condoms since she didnīt have any other birth control ATM.
That's more considerate than what is usually reported about WW's in an A. Instead of you finding it odd, b/c she has never done it in the past.......I suggest you stop trusting her and realize you put yourself at risk every time you have unprotected sex with her.
She has signs of being in an A. Whether or not they are having a PA.....IDK, but it appears very suspicious. I think you need to protect yourself, as though she is in a PA.
Would a PA be a deal breaker for you? Would you continue being intimate with her? Would it make any difference if you knew it was an EA? You need to know your own feelings, before you start trying to figure out what actions to take.
So this morning I snooped a bit and found some sex toys from W closet, like BDSM collar and coc* ring!! Everything inside me turned upside down and my hands started shaking. I was about to call my W right away and confront her. BUT - she could say that she bought them for us (for date night) and I do not have other evidence.
Okay, let me get this straight. You are "nesting", have date nights and have sex about once a month. You are seeing all these "signs" that tell your gut something is up. Then you find his/her sex toys hidden in her closet.......(in the nesting place?).... And you aren't sure if you should confront her b/c you don't have other evidence, and she would probably lie about the whole thing.
Well, here's the thing. You are not clear about the status of your relationship. On one hand, the two of you play like a separated couple who are nesting so their kids can stay in the family home. But on the other hand, you are sleeping together. So, do you confront her as her outraged married H.........or do you confront her as the outraged separated H?
What do you think, should I confront W with this evidence or wait for more? I think I could try to find the condoms and see if they are used, but most likely donīt find them... If I ask, guess W denies everything. Iīm pretty sure she has not told anyone of her friends either, so no benefit in asking them either.
I don't recommend you confront her with the sex toys, or the condoms. That's a no-win, for sure! It won't benefit you to confront her at all, at least for now. Know why? B/c technically you are suppose to be separated. Obviously, you thought it was to work through the issues and eventually reconcile. But your W is wayward, and this is not what she is doing.....at all. To be blunt, you are just a side dish! She throws you just enough crumbs to keep you attached, b/c she benefits from being legally M to you.
She is acting similar to GGW, and I wouldn't doubt her bringing OM to the nesting apartment while you are with the kids. If you don't think she would do such a low thing.......then you are in a for a rude awakening. Remember the thrill I talked about? Yes, she would do most anything.......b/c she does not emotionally consider herself your W. Hopefully, she hasn't brought OM to the nesting place, but I suspect she is having sex with some other guy....somewhere. From what I read, most women who are S from the H, consider it none of the H's business what she does. Awake yet?
I don't think you should confront her for now. You can choose to get the intell you need, or not, that's your decision. Cadet's signature line says "Knowledge is power". I agree. Some people can handle what they see when they snoop, and some can't. You are the only person who knows which one you are. And, could you leave it alone, once you got the intell? Or would it become an obsession where you were constantly checking to see the latest update? These are important answers you need to know before you do anything else. I mean....
anything. When you let us know, then we can start from there. Confrontation, alone, gets you nowhere. It basically let's her know you are aware of her affair. It does not end the affair! Then what is the next step? It's your ball.
I caution you about jumping off into any action that stems from emotions. You have a lot of information to learn here. I hope you take the time to learn first, then make a decision.
Sorry, I didn't intend to write a book.
Sandi2,
First of all, thanks for investing time to give your perspective - very helpful!
What it comes to the background, I recognize myself apologizing after apologizing to her wanting the peace back again. I know I had things to apologize for, my behavior was very negative at times, but really wanted to leave in peace and hoped apologizing (and changing behavior on surface) would enable that.
Itīs a bit contradictory, since during fights I had a tendency to excuse myself and my actions that led to the fight, but still I was always the first apologizing. Having this defensive background, I wanted to take full responsibility of my own faults, and I admit that I have propensity to take propensity of her faults as well thinking that I was a "root cause". If I would have been more supportive, she would have respected me; If I would have been emotionally available, she would have loved me; If I would have been physically near without initiating sex, there would have been more sex etc, etc.
You said very well that if W donīt take responsibility of her actions, reconciliation of the heart wonīt happen due to all blame she would put on me... I guess there is not any magic wand that would get us there?
Can you set goals that will help you change, and not repeat the same same mistakes? Just as an example, would seeing an IC help to figure out why you lacked in emotional connection, and why you felt uncomfortable being physically near her?
I began my journey for better man and H about a year ago, and have changed my course, but "too late". I have seen IC and there are several reasons what led to these issues, i.e. fear of being rejected but mostly resentment that I had towards my W. We did not have loving, accepting atmosphere in our home.
Understanding love languages would have definitely been helpful, since her primary one is "physical touch" (failed), and mine is "words of affirmation" (failed). However, I donīt know if we would have been able to implement that to our life without this crisis (or right help), since boy, we tried a lot! Only now I feel that I really understand the big picture.
Her wayward mindset starts with resentment, and then, disrespect.
This is so right - there has been lot of resentment both sides, and she definitely did not respect me. I sometimes thought that I was the best possible H, since I provided well, didnīt hang around with friends at bars, were not abusive (said bad things sometimes though) and definitely did not cheat. Isnīt it a classic!
Yes, I was also unhappy, but still I did not leave - so itīs hard for me to accept that she gave up...
It's the "secret" and the sense of "naughtiness" that becomes intoxicating.
This is so weird - she never wanted to be "naughty" with me, she just wanted to be physically near and emotionally connected when ML. I can say that I would also liked to experience more in martial bed and try new things, but I always listened wishes. So it hurts super much after sex starved marriage to find these kind of toys and think she is doing something that could have spiced up our marriage with someone else. Is that typical for WW?
Would a PA be a deal breaker for you? Would you continue being intimate with her? Would it make any difference if you knew it was an EA?
Good question. Many years I thought PA would be a deal breaker, but under these circumstances I donīt. If I could confirm that she has a PA/EA, I would say: I am committed to continue emotional attachment focused counselling with you IF PA/EA stops immediately. If you donīt stop, I will file D (especially if PA).
On the other hand, of course she could say ok I quit, but still continue...
Itīs so hard for me to understand why can she act as nothing has happened? How can she live with her self if she has a PA, we are still married even we are separated!
You are not clear about the status of your relationship.
Thatīs the thing, I thought we were very clear! We had a separate conversation when we agreed to NOT see anyone else! She always before said to me that the worst thing that could happen to her is that I have affair and she did not know about it, so I kinda imagined that she would respect me that much that she would not do it to me... I also asked 2 weeks ago her to say me right away if she wants to see/have seen others and she said yes and asked me to do the same thing for her. Yes, we are separated but we are still married! My W has always been VERY honest about everything, but I guess it changes in these circumstances?
She is acting similar to GGW
What is GGW?
I don't think you should confront her for now. You can choose to get the intell you need, or not, that's your decision. Cadet's signature line says "Knowledge is power". I agree. Some people can handle what they see when they snoop, and some can't. You are the only person who knows which one you are. And, could you leave it alone, once you got the intell? Or would it become an obsession where you were constantly checking to see the latest update? These are important answers you need to know before you do anything else.
The thing is that I feel I need to know. I have even this feeling that how can I leave my kids with my W if she is so "filthy" Itīs feeling SO bad... Yes, I recognize that if she knows I know, it does not necessary stop affair. But if she wants another chance with me (she obviously does not), then it needs to stop! And ATM I feel I have right to know. Itīs only way we can be in good terms in the future for the kids, even if we are not together.
Letīs see if I get more evidence today since she just came from weekend trip.
I have an idea how to confront her, but Iīll write about it in next post.
Thanks for listening...
Hi,
Bit of update of my thoughts.
Actually had a bit bad conscience after talking quite roughly of my wife. I love this woman, but it just hurtīs so much to think she potentially has an affair... Where is this beautiful and innocent girl I married, I wonder. But reading other threads, I notice that this kind of behavior is actually paradigm of WW.
I was also thinking about confronting and what I actually win with that. She still is in the beginning of her WW journey, so I hardly think she would stop if she has A, rather just going more careful. And since I donīt have bullet proof evidence, she would deny everything anyways.
On the other hand, I have that much circumstantial evidence that I can quite certainly suspect an A. And this being case my personality wants to set some firm boundaries for our future - A needs to stop if we continue our MC and want to be in good terms for the kids. But big question is, how can I enforce that boundary - I cannot since she can lie. Further, I have seen many spouses taking more moderate approach and not confronting cheating spouse but rather taking steps back. Any advice, would you guys continue MC without confronting if you suspect an A?
I made this plan how could I get her to admit the potential A: Explaining all the little things I have found & seen (toys, parties, protecting phone) and say that I have a strong reason to suspect you are cheating on me. Are you? When W denies, I could say that only way she could prove me wrong is to let me check her phone. If she letīs and I donīt find evidence (have never even asked to check the phone before), I can maybe believe her excuses. If she refuses, I take that as confirmation of an A.
How does that sound?
But to be honest, I still wouldnīt be 100% clear of the next steps. Is there any idea of continuing MC if she has an affair? What kind of boundaries I could set up not feeling/appearing like a doormat? After all, I still want to fix the situation if possible...
Sorry for pouring this all so inconsistently.
Hello and welcome!
I truly wish that we could reconcile, although Iīm prepared to continue my adventure alone and as a better man.
Your post makes it sound like you are doing a good job of DB'ing, you didn't mention Michele's book but I assume you read it, how long ago?
As of Jan 2018 we rented an apartment where we alternate every other week with W so that kids could stay at their home. We also started emotionally focused therapy 1/week and even my hopes are high it could enable us to attach emotionally, I afraid there is too much damage done for a fresh start.
You really shouldn't be going to couples therapy right now, it's unlikely to help things and may even hurt them. WAS's need time and space, when we force them into therapy or counseling it's basically the opposite of what they want. And they resent that we are forcing them to do what WE want.
Since she feels that she needs space I obviously do not want to smother her, but on the other hand cause she felt neglected in the marriage Iīm afraid that going too much dark will send the wrong message as well.
This is a very common concern expressed here. The thing is, she is two feet out the door. The time for smothering her with love and affection to repair the M is long gone. It won't help now, it'll just look needy and desperate to her.
Before what I found this morning my wife had these classical WAW/WW/MLC symptoms:
-Parties a lot more with younger co-workers or divorced friends
-Plastic surgery
-Tattoo below breasts
-paying more attention to dressing/make-up
-Works out intensively
-Rebellious action/thoughts
-lotīs at SoMe
-protecting phone
Given that, I would say the chances are very good she is in a EA if not PA.
Week ago we had date and were intimate and AFTER ML my wife mentioned she bought condoms since she didnīt have any other birth control ATM. I thought this was odd, since she never bought them before, but did not say anything.
Yeah it sure sounds like she's got a PA going.
So this morning I snooped a bit and found some sex toys from W closet, like BDSM collar and coc* ring!!
I'm sorry, but it doesn't get any more obvious than that. But here's the thing, the two of you are separated. I'm sorry to say that in her eyes the M is over. So technically it's not an affair to her, it's just her moving on. And no I would not confront her about what you found because A) frankly it's none of your business and B) in confronting her you will expose that you are sneaking around snooping on her and going through her personal belongings, and I promise you that will not be well- received.
By the way you mentioned you've had a sex-starved marriage but unless I missed it you didn't mention why?
hello, GettinT... i am sorry about your situation... as a former Wayward Wife, one of the things i wish my H had done differently was confront me when he found out i was being unfaithful... he kept his knowledge to himself go too long... he had learned pretty early in the A, but said nothing... by the time he confronted me, i was fully in the affair... i was so attach emotionally, not to mention physically, i could not even imagine ending it... had he confronted me when he first knew, i would have been so ashamed, so regretful... however, my perspective comes from one who was in a marriage, and not at all separated at the time... your situation does seem different...
in general, i don't agree with the concept of pretending that you don't know... but hear me out on this: if you are going to confront her, you have do something to go along with revealing your knowledge... if you are not going to take some kind of stand once you let it out that you know, then you may as well say nothing--because then you are just going to look weak... pretending that you don't know, she probably does think you are weak, but doesn't think you know how weak she thinks you are... get it?
so if you are simply going to confront, and then go back to living like things are somewhat normal where you are putting up with it, then keep it to yourself for the time being...
mis dos centavos...
--artista
AnotherStander,
I actually have not got Michelleīs book yet, it should arrive any day now. I have however red tons of other books of MR and individual growth. Only positive thing in this crisis is that IF we get our R work, it will be significantly better but if not, I will be better man for myself and any other potential R in the future - even if the learning path have gone through hell.
You really shouldn't be going to couples therapy right now, it's unlikely to help things and may even hurt them. WAS's need time and space, when we force them into therapy or counseling it's basically the opposite of what they want. And they resent that we are forcing them to do what WE want.
This type of MC was actually my W idea - she said that she wants us to separate and start emotionally focused therapy, since thatīs the area we have had issues. Of course I has crossed my mind that it was just one way for her to give me hope and pave mentally easier way out...
I'm sorry, but it doesn't get any more obvious than that. But here's the thing, the two of you are separated.
I get this unfortunately, and itīs The most difficult thing to know in my life. I have always been very committed to M and so I thouhgt of my W. She gets hurt if I even have suspected anything with OM, saying I "I feel so bad that you can even think anything like that"...
But thatīs how the story usually goes I guess.
By the way you mentioned you've had a sex-starved marriage but unless I missed it you didn't mention why?
Because W did not want to. She said that she donīt feel emotionally connected with me. She also had a lot of resentment which pushed her far.
I think this quote from this forum explains it:
"women need to feel emotionally safe and secure before they become physical or sexual... while men need to feel accepted physically and/or sexually before they become emotional and vulnerable."
Vicious cycle!
BUT, feels very odd that W would be up to playing w toys now with OM when all she wanted from me was being emotionally available and physically near when ML...
Artista,
Thank you for providing perspective from another angle and great that you also shared your own experience!
My W has not been overly mean to me during this process. She has told to everyone that we separated since we need to find out if we still could love each other. There is lot of bitterness and anger for sure, but still until recently I was hopeful. We know what caused our problems and they donīt exist anymore. Itīs about finding this emotional bond again trust again. With the therapy focused in that together with DBing I was hopeful.
But seems I react very strongly to this possible A. I really want to confront her and making a stand. BUT, I donīt know what that stand would be. One way would be that Iīm not going to the MC if you do not stop, but it feels that it could work, and we got the best therapist in our country who is usually very busy.
Another thing could be financial, I could stop paying rent of "nesting" apartment and ask for her to find her own. OR, I could explain that I will go totally dark except the MC sessions and things that concern the kids and finance.
Any ideas what would have touched you?
BUT, I donīt know what that stand would be. One way would be that Iīm not going to the MC if you do not stop, but it feels that it could work, and we got the best therapist in our country who is usually very busy.
Another thing could be financial, I could stop paying rent of "nesting" apartment and ask for her to find her own. OR, I could explain that I will go totally dark except the MC sessions and things that concern the kids and finance.
GT,
The only suggested boundary below that would be enforceable is the financial boundary. The other options are quite frankly childish threats that will make you look weak.
I agree with AS in that you are separated and there is nothing you can do about the A she is in at the moment other then deciding if this is a deal breaker for you. If it is file for D. If it is not the only thing you can do is create a great life for your kids and yourself and maybe your W will want to be a part of it.
Look man, this $hit is not easy and when you are standing for the M and she is running around like girls gone wild it is going to be a rough painful road.
The quicker that you communicate to her through actions that you love and value yourself are not gonna put up with this disrespectful BS, the quicker you will have a resolution in your situation. If not, this most likely will go on for a very long time!
Good luck my friend.
I actually have not got Michelleīs book yet, it should arrive any day now. I have however red tons of other books of MR and individual growth. Only positive thing in this crisis is that IF we get our R work, it will be significantly better but if not, I will be better man for myself and any other potential R in the future - even if the learning path have gone through hell.
It sounds like of all the things you read that you were kind of naturally drawn to the DB approach so I think you'll find the book very helpful. You are definitely on the right track, make yourself the "spouse only a fool would leave" and that is your best chance of a recon, but eventually in that process you will get to the point where you realize you are going to thrive whether you recon or not.
This type of MC was actually my W idea - she said that she wants us to separate and start emotionally focused therapy, since thatīs the area we have had issues. Of course I has crossed my mind that it was just one way for her to give me hope and pave mentally easier way out...
Gotcha. In that case it's fine to go, just don't have any expectations that it will help your sitch. A lot of times WAS's only suggest things like that so they can cross it off their "list of things I did to try everything to fix it but that only proved the M really is over". They go into it with the mindset that they are just looking for reasons/excuses to prove the M is done. And unfortunately most counselors are just divorce facilitators, so it's pretty easy for a WAS to find what they're looking for there.
I get this unfortunately, and itīs The most difficult thing to know in my life. I have always been very committed to M and so I thouhgt of my W. She gets hurt if I even have suspected anything with OM, saying I "I feel so bad that you can even think anything like that"...
But thatīs how the story usually goes I guess.
It really is. A lot of them will engage in all kinds of nefarious behavior but then act all hurt and disappointed that you would actually think they are engaging in it. It's crazy but often the spouses we thought we knew so well turn into lying cheaters that barely even resemble who we knew. They will look you in the eye and pour out lies and turn it around to make YOU feel guilty for accusing them. It's amazing.
Because W did not want to. She said that she donīt feel emotionally connected with me. She also had a lot of resentment which pushed her far.
That's WAS logic for you. "I don't feel connected to you so I don't want to do things that might make me start feeling connected to you again."
BUT, feels very odd that W would be up to playing w toys now with OM when all she wanted from me was being emotionally available and physically near when ML...
One of the books I read talked about this phenomenon, how shocking it is for many LBH's when they snoop/ spy and find out that their W that hasn't wanted to have sex with them for years and were pretty plain-vanilla in bed even before that are suddenly behaving like they're trying out for a part in Fifty Shades. But the bottom line is all of this is she doesn't see YOU that way anymore, so you've got to go about making yourself into a guy that she DOES see like that again. Detach, GAL, become strong and independent, revamp your wardrobe, get in shape if you need to, etc.
The quicker that you communicate to her through actions that you love and value yourself are not gonna put up with this disrespectful BS, the quicker you will have a resolution in your situation. If not, this most likely will go on for a very long time!
^^^This^^^ Sandi says much the same thing here a lot. WAS's just love to walk all over the LBS while throwing them crumbs now and then to keep them on as Plan B. Your attitude needs to be "I am Plan A, and not necessarily for you, W." She has to learn to miss you.
LH19 & AS,
Thanks for your replies, now I need to focus the encouraging comments below, since I feel beaten - W confessed A today...
Especially liked these:
The quicker that you communicate to her through actions that you love and value yourself are not gonna put up with this disrespectful BS, the quicker you will have a resolution in your situation.
"I am Plan A, and not necessarily for you, W." She has to learn to miss you
I keep this short since feel quite exhausted but this is how it went in a nutshell - can give more details and thoughts once Iīve slept a bit (already late in Europe):
I gathered my evidence and was prepared. After our MC I said that Iīll give you a ride home. Then the convo (in short) was approx like this:
Me: I suspect you have an affair
W: (looking in the eye) No, I absolutely have not, how can you think that way
Me: Unfortunately I have some evidence that forces me to do that conclusion
W: Come on, I would never do anything like that
I put the evidence on table:
-Seems that she has not slept in "nesting" apt during her week (W denies)
-Found the "toy bag" (W says she bought it for us)
-Found camera with pics with other guy on campfire (W: met him accidentally at forest)
-She left with two suitcases in the beginning of last week, came back with only one. (This was the pivotal evidence - she first lied that they are both at home, but since I checked the whole house in advance and they were not there, her story cracked. She admitted that bag was left to an OM, but of course first said that "nothing happened")
After short conversation I said, that only way for her to prove herself right is to show me her mobile phone. She did not and I said I take that as an evidence of A.
Shortly after it came clear that all my evidence were correct and she really has spent many days/nights w OM.
And Iīm talking about my sweetheart who always were super truthful!
LH19, out of curiosity, what is the book you mentioned here (if ok to share)?
One of the books I read talked about this phenomenon, how shocking it is for many LBH's when they snoop/ spy and find out that their W that hasn't wanted to have sex with them for years and were pretty plain-vanilla in bed even before that are suddenly behaving like they're trying out for a part in Fifty Shades.
When I got all info I needed, my W actually was very remorseful and said that meant nothing for her emotionally. Who knows whatīs the truth.
I communicated my boundaries (can share them later if you want to know) and left. Letīs see how the situation develops in couple of days...
Experienced the worst feelings today, but after I got the assurance I also feel relieved. At least for me the worst is not knowing, might be different for others. I still feel numb, but I have a plan that Iīm standing behind (hopefully have all the strenght).
I also want to convey my sympathy to all at this forum who have experienced the same - it really really really [censored]!
Actually feels like a bad dream.
One addition:
This was the first time I caught my W lying in 15 years...
I communicated my boundaries (can share them later if you want to know) and left. Letīs see how the situation develops in couple of days...
This would be helpful. Most newbies don't understand how to set and enforce boundaries.
You next steps are going to crucial in your sitch. You must show strength right now! Any signs of weakness will set you back substantially.
LH19,
Thanks, looking forward to see where this goes but try to keep my expectations in zero if possible...
BTW, what was the book you referred to in your last post?
What are your boundaries?
The book was referred to by Another Stander.
One addition:
This was the first time I caught my W lying in 15 years...
Not sure if you saw this blurb I posted to you yesterday:
It really is. A lot of them will engage in all kinds of nefarious behavior but then act all hurt and disappointed that you would actually think they are engaging in it. It's crazy but often the spouses we thought we knew so well turn into lying cheaters that barely even resemble who we knew. They will look you in the eye and pour out lies and turn it around to make YOU feel guilty for accusing them. It's amazing.
She is not the person you used to know. She has transformed from your loving wife into a lying cheater. This is your new reality sorry to say. Expect a LOT more lying in the future. She will lie about all things great and small. She will lie about stuff that matters and stuff that doesn't.
LH19, out of curiosity, what is the book you mentioned here (if ok to share)?
That was my quote rather than LH19, the book that is from is the "Married Man Sex Life Primer". We don't talk about it a lot here because it doesn't dovetail with DB so much. It's more of a look into alpha versus beta behavior and how to strike a balance on that in your romantic relationships.
A bit of update from last 24H:
Yesterday I found out my W had PA with a guy from the hobby she started 3 months ago. They apparently started to chat over FB at Dec and at Jan it went physical. They have been together even longer periods and done all couple things as movies and dates. Not to mention about sex, where they also used these toys (my W bought them) we never did together.
I did not sleep at all last night, since every time I closed my eyes, I saw them together there doing nasty things. Devastating. If someone has good tips how to come over these visions, Iīm glad to receive a hint...
When I confronted W, I was very calm - no shouting or anything. I explained that she has offended me in worst possible way and even if she probably wanted to save me from pain by not being honest, she caused me more pain doing things behind my back. I needed to say this, but I tried not to be weak, but demonstrate good leadership in expressing my opinion clearly. I also expressed that the special insult was that I have starved without sex (well, we had sex once in 2-8 weeks), and there comes a guy she knows for 2 months and is ready to be very pro-active and go so much further in creativity and passion than even once with me.
This seems to be hardest for me in the A. You know - I felt SO much desire to say to my wife, that I WANT to do the same thing to you what OM did sexually right now, but I managed to keep this inside me. I know it was my ego talking...
What are your boundaries?
I did some soul searching and said like this -
You need to decide what you want and you have these options:
1. Choose me
2. Choose someone else
If you choose someone else, go, I will not be a wingman, I will be a captain.
If you choose me, I am committed to work our way towards forgiveness. But if you choose me, I have these boundaries:
-You have to prove that you are committed to the R, and this means I will not contact you for any other matter than kids&finance. We can schedule time to talk us if initiative comes from you. I need to see that she WANTS to find the way for us to build something new.
Further, we continue to live separate and I want you to do following things with OM:
-Take the responsibility of A
-Cut all connection with OM
-Send a written statement to OM saying along the lines of: "I will not be in any contact with you anymore and I ask you to respect that as well being not in any contact with me"
-Never go physically near OM, so quit hobby where OM attends and find another place
-Also I said that she needs to be 100% transparent with her mobile phone
My W seemed to be remorseful, but you never (I see) know what she truly feels. I am personally satisfied with boundaries and am committed to work with them.
Her concern was that will I ever be able to forgive her and does she need to spend rest of her life in hostile R if she chooses me. I said that I want to forgive her if I see her working towards the M.
I gave her couple of days to think what she wants.
So what was the response?
W called couple hours later and said that is it possible to think two weeks, and the reasoning was this: W said that I (me) am probably in shock due to her affair and maybe I will change my time bit later. I said that I have made my decision and do not need two weeks, but if she needs it, I go dark and we get back in 2 weeks.
You know, Iīm 99% certain, that the 2 weeks were not about me, they were about the OM. Iīm quite sure she wants to buy more time to spend time with him, and find out if they could have something together...
She probably is so thrilled about A, that she wants to keep me as an option if it does not work out with OM. Then she can also hope, that I would change my mind and she wouldnīt need to deliver the bad news of their future plans... I might be pessimistic, but Iīm not surprised anymore when it comes to WW (I would not have thought it this way just few day ago).
But if this is the case, then be it. I know I will be happy again (even Iīm VERY low and fragile now, feeling SOOOO much pain)and I will be loved again and hopefully able to love back. This will leave scars, but what I now do is focus to DETACHING. Hopefully I get those disturbing visions of my W & OM having sex with their fuĪ%&ing toys. Really, please give advise on this if you have any!
Even if Iīm very pessimistic that W would choose me in 2 weeks, I am ready to try if she is. I am so much better man now that if it works, it might be better what we even thought. Otherwise I continue with my life without her and hope she will be happy (actually ATM I hope that the potential relationship with OM is burning her
). sorry...
My priority now is my beautiful and pure hearted kids who need all the love and feel of security they can get.
Want to add, that I do not say I will reject her right away if she burns with OM and Iīm available. I will not have ANY hope to find someone new feeling this much hurt, but when I feel ready I hope I dare to open my heart...
She is not the person you used to know. She has transformed from your loving wife into a lying cheater. This is your new reality sorry to say. Expect a LOT more lying in the future. She will lie about all things great and small. She will lie about stuff that matters and stuff that doesn't.
Unfortulately this I have learned to understand through the heaviest path...
the book that is from is the "Married Man Sex Life Primer"
Thanks for this! Do you remember any reason they found to explain why some women go to "50 shades of gray" directly after sex starved marriage even if they have been the ones keeping it quiet themselves and wanted safety and EC in ML?
Feels like Iīm coming obsessed to this thing...
I did not sleep at all last night, since every time I closed my eyes, I saw them together there doing nasty things. Devastating. If someone has good tips how to come over these visions, Iīm glad to receive a hint...
Would you watch a really bad movie over and over again? Of course not. So why do this to yourself? When you start to picture it, picture a big red STOP sign in your mind and turn the channel. Sounds silly but it works.
As for the two weeks - you're right, she's trying to buy a little more time with OM. Spend the next two weeks going out with friends and doing fun new things. All the better if she "happens" to find out you were at a concert last night or out at trivia night at a local bar with some friends. Note: I'm not suggesting you date - don't do that - but it's okay to give her a little taste of what it might be like to wonder about you being out there where other women might hit on you. (Unless of course you had problems with being unfaithful yourself in the marriage,in which case this is not a good idea. )
Iīm quite sure she wants to buy more time to spend time with him, and find out if they could have something together...
She probably is so thrilled about A, that she wants to keep me as an option if it does not work out with OM.
Yes^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
G,
I was afraid you were go to set a boundary that you couldn't enforce. I wished you would have check with the board first.
Can I have 2 weeks to try this other guy out before I make a decision? WTF? Come on man! No, you either decide to work together on the marriage or I help you pack your $hit and your sex toys and you can go live with OM.
IMO allowing her 2 weeks is very weak behavior!
I get the point.
I said ok I have no contact until she either ends the affair and decides she wants to work on the marriage, or until we reach 2 weeks when its over from my side if A is not ended. At first I felt this was pretty reasonable and actually just realized after agreeing that potential OM scenario. Also thought at first I dont want decision so that is pushed, but definitely not OM around either... think changing boundaries is even weaker or what do y think?
Kml,
THANKS for a concreate tip! Tried this and it works! Hopefully can sleep now...
Thanks also for suppprt in GALling, need to keep that as priority:)
At first I felt this was pretty reasonable and actually just realized after agreeing that potential OM scenario.
Did you ever see the movie Hall Pass? You just gave your W a 14 day free pass.
Look man I know this isn't easy and you are new to this, but right now you will do anything to stop the pain, including letting your W test drive a brand new car for 14 days. Then the 14 days is over and she will mostly certainly say "I am not sure what I want ". Then what? Another 14 days?
I did not sleep at all last night, since every time I closed my eyes, I saw them together there doing nasty things. Devastating. If someone has good tips how to come over these visions, Iīm glad to receive a hint...
Would you watch a really bad movie over and over again? Of course not. So why do this to yourself? When you start to picture it, picture a big red STOP sign in your mind and turn the channel. Sounds silly but it works.
Exactly what I was going to suggest. I think it's from the book the Happiness Trap?
As for the two weeks - you're right, she's trying to buy a little more time with OM. Spend the next two weeks going out with friends and doing fun new things.
I completely agree. She wants a trial period to live with OM, and your response should be to live your own life.
Thanks for this! Do you remember any reason they found to explain why some women go to "50 shades of gray" directly after sex starved marriage even if they have been the ones keeping it quiet themselves and wanted safety and EC in ML?
From what I recall I don't think they delved too much into that, the point was really that when a rogue wife says she doesn't want to have sex anymore, she means with YOU. She still wants sex, in fact it's probably a rather urgent priority. Often women will "affair down" just to get the sex and attention they're craving.
Compadres,
I appreciate your advice on the accepting 14 days test drive!
I adjusted my message accordingly by writing below letter to my wife (word by word translation from our language).
Background is that W sent me these two messages yesterday night and this morning:
1. Can you please send me your boundaries again in writing I was so shock yesterday that I donīt remember all. Can you also describe what kind of relationship you want (clearly this is to compare what OM has to offer)
2. Could you really love me anymore after all this?
I replied that I will send her an email answering to these questions. Below is my email also word by word translation from our language:
Wife:
You asked if I still could love you after all this.
My love towards you has not disappeared, but unfortunately now it feels like covered with dirt and it takes both of us to clean it. Imagine that love would be like a window that is dirty on both sides. I stand at the other side and you stand at the other side. If only one of us cleans their side, other side remains unclean. To clean our love we both need to work and do our parts and you can tell when the other person starts she can be seen better.
I have done soul searching and I am committed to start cleaning my side and the journey towards each other and forgiveness.
Below are the frames within which I can travel this road:
First of all you need to choose me. I dont share woman with anyone.
If you choose me, you would need to prove to be willing and active in finding your path to me. It means the following things in this order of priority:
1. Disconnect relationship completely with another man
2. Write him the statement with following content: "I want to find back my way to my H, and I will no longer contact you at all. Iīm asking you to respect this decision by refrain to contact me either Please share your statement with me before sending
3. Physically get away from this other man's life so that you do not accidentally collide with him in i.e. hobbies
4. You will be 100% transparent with your phone during the agreed length of time. This means that Iīm able to check your phone when I want even if I would not use that right
5. MC continues as planned and we discuss your affair at the next session
6. Raw honesty both ways
7. You initiate conversations that helps us to find our ways to each-others hearts
Following are optional which will be started when we both feel that way:
8. Date night 1/month
9. Weekly lunc/dinner/movie etc
(side note, this is where I amended 2 weeks rule):
I have also thought that I will not wait for 2 two weeks before taking the next step in my life. If you want to invest in us, it needs to start now.
You also asked what kind of relationship I wanted.
I want a relationship where both spouses feel loved and accepted.
Relationship with raw honesty. Playfulness. Safety. Encouragement.
I want a relationship with a lot of intimacy, touch and satisfying sex.
Adventures but also home evenings. Room to breathe, together and separately.
This is how I want to experience my relationship in the future.
If you want to make this happen together with me, let me know me by the end of the week.
Husband
Explanation on the time frame: I wanted on purpose give her few days to think this through and also maybe get the feeling that she will lose me if she continues with OM. She has the week with kids and OM is not in picture (at least alive dunno which kind of pics they send via phone).
Also Iīm having evening out with my buddy at Saturday so I want her to be at home with kids and maybe get an thought or two of what am I doing or talking with.
KML a bit along the lines what you described (I have never been unfaithful though).
Letīs see what happens, keep in touch!
So,
W just answered and she feels that phone transparency is controlling. She says she understands why I ask for it but it feels bad for her - she has always felt very negative against controlling, partly due to childhood issues (she still is controlling herself). I replied her that this is important boundary to me and why (pretty obvious since chatting with OM and who knows what). She added that shouldnt the trust be build by will to trust and commitment and not controlling. I replied that definitely wont be build over controlling but openness and phone transparency is a way to demonstrate that.
But!
I myself am highly against controlling as well and frankly dont like to snoop anyones phone, rather trust. However I think she has lost her luxury to protected phone after Lyon that much. I have never in 15years asked her to show her phone before, but Im quite certain that OM will connect even if we start piecing - or other way around. So having openness over phone would be important.
What does the board think, should I compromise on this boundary or not?
My current communication is that I insist phone transparency if we start peacing until we feel comfortable in emotional level and intimacy.
Any thoughts?
Sad to read about your sitch. Take the steps to regain respect from your W. Keep boundaries, do not keep waiting for answers. Start the Gal now. Detatch, take care of your children. Be wise, try to protect yourself from mind readings, as AS says, donīt torture yourself.
It is a long journey, take your time for yourself.
G,
I am going to ask you this question again. Why did you not come to the board before you wrote the letter?
"If you choose me" WTF? Is this a contest? Again, I know you are new but you just drew the line in the sand with a lot of $hit I am pretty sure you you are not going to be able to back up. You are already considering wavering on transparency which is the most important boundary with a cheater.
Until she is ready to do whatever it takes to EARN your trust and ANOTHER CHANCE with you IMO you are wasting your time. She is going to test you and these boundaries and if you show weakness you are in for a long painful journey.
"If you choose me" WTF? Is this a contest?
I was coming here to write this exact same thing. This is sooooo very weak sounding. Why does she get to have all of the power in this choice? She sleeps around with another man, and youre practically begging for her to stop so she can be with you.
What fear does she actually have that SHE might lose YOU? Why is it so obvious that you are already willing to choose her regardless of what she says or does?
First of all you need to choose me. I dont share woman with anyone.
Getting, as the others suggested, in the future please post things like this before sending them to your W so we can help you tweak it. That said, I think you did a really great job on the letter. The line above isn't worded well, it would have been better to say something like "For me to consider reconciling, first you will have to firmly commit to working on our relationship and agree to not see anyone else during that time." But overall I think your list is reasonable and exactly what it needs to be for a potential recon.
So,
W just answered and she feels that phone transparency is controlling. She says she understands why I ask for it but it feels bad for her - she has always felt very negative against controlling, partly due to childhood issues (she still is controlling herself). I replied her that this is important boundary to me and why (pretty obvious since chatting with OM and who knows what). She added that shouldnt the trust be build by will to trust and commitment and not controlling. I replied that definitely wont be build over controlling but openness and phone transparency is a way to demonstrate that.
She has been unfaithful and trust is going to be a huge issue for you for quite some time. In order to rebuild that trust she's got to be willing to do things that may feel uncomfortable for her including this phone transparency.
I myself am highly against controlling as well and frankly dont like to snoop anyones phone, rather trust.
OK well "snooping" is looking at her phone without her knowledge and permission, and that is also "controlling". Looking at her phone WITH her knowledge and permission is neither snooping nor controlling.
However I think she has lost her luxury to protected phone after lying that much. I have never in 15years asked her to show her phone before, but Im quite certain that OM will connect even if we start piecing - or other way around. So having openness over phone would be important.
I agree. It's not up for negotiation.
My W seemed to be remorseful, but you never (I see) know what she truly feels. I am personally satisfied with boundaries and am committed to work with them.
I suspect what you were seeing, was your WW sorry she got caught. It is not remorse. Which, she proved by calling in two hours wanting two weeks to make up her mind to end her affair. No, she's not remorseful.
Please come to the board before you make anymore big approaches with your W. You gave a combination of stating a boundary and stipulations to a possible reconciliation.
Most LBH's I have observed, tend to say way too much. He starts telling the WW what all he will do if she gives the M another chance, or what he expects her do if she returns to the M........before she even agrees to end her affair (or whatever) and/or asks about the possibility of reconciling. So, be careful.
Know the differences in a boundary, and in stipulations of a reconciliation. Your boundaries are about what you won't tolerate in your life/marriage. Your terms about reconciling the MR are about what she will have to do in order for you to feel safe, and heal from her waywardness. (Which, you relayed most of it when you stated your boundary). If she wants to reconcile, she doesn't get to go home until you make it your terms clear. (Not that it is necessary to currently voice that to her, but FYI). She can agree or disagree, but if she doesn't agree to your terms, you do not move back together again. Understand? Your terms in reconciling the MR can wait untill you get past this current place you are standing. But let me inject this, for fear I will forget it later. In regards to a reconciliation.......you are the betrayed spouse, so you are the only one who makes the stipulations. She can agree to your terms or refuse. If she doesn't agree, then you do not reconcile with her! Period! Do you understand what I am saying? She has a wayward mindset. She is in no position to lay down any terms in the MR. That doesn't mean you are allowed to mistreat her. It is not a ticket to control her. Unless she is remorseful and humble, she will probably be resistant in agreeing to your terms, b/c she has a wayward mindset.....and that's what waywards do. However, if the consequences are stiff enough, she could change her mind. And it has to be more than just going dark.
However, one step at a time, and at the moment, this is about your boundary. And, that may be a challenge b/c your boundary and all of it kind of ran in together. Be careful not to talk too much at one time. And, some things we tell you, are not to be shared with her. Some things, like telling her she has a choice......are unnecessary, b/c she already knows she has a choice. You are not required to list her options. This about
your boundaries, and your options. When talking to her, don't let her sidetrack the subject at hand, b/c she will try to get off into things in the past or things in the future. If this happens, direct it back to the current task. For example, nothing else needs to be discussed until she ends the A. B/c there is no point. Nothing else will be resolved until she end the A. Stick to your guns!
W called couple hours later and said that is it possible to think two weeks, and the reasoning was this: W said that I (me) am probably in shock due to her affair and maybe I will change my time bit later. I said that I have made my decision and do not need two weeks, but if she needs it, I go dark and we get back in 2 weeks.
She's wanting time to see if OM will work out, and if not.....she knows you are sitting on ready to reconcile. She is not thinking of your feelings of being in shock! No matter how much or how little time a WW is given to make up her mind.......she will wait till the midnight hour and tell her H she still doesn't know what she wants. Affairs are addictive, so she won't reach a place she doesn't want it,
until she takes the steps to break the addiction. (FYI).
Your boundaries are not about what she
wants. Currently, she "wants" the OM! Your boundary is about what you won't tolerate. That is your boundary......period. Her choice is either to honor your boundary or ignore it. If it is ignored, then you ____________ (fill in the blank). If a couple are living together and he states a boundary that he will not be in an open MR.......and she does not honor it, then he has to move things to the next level, which usually means physical separation. If the couple is already physically separated, the next step usually means cutting off all financial sources he gives her (except child support), and filing for a divorce. Going dark, only, rarely works on a woman who is actively engaged in a PA.
First of all thanks to everyone of your contribution in this situation. I have seen many writing about how this site has been helping to maintain the sanity in difficult times. But I couldnīt agree more! It has really been a lifesaver to be able to vent thoughts here and also get all the understanding and knowledge from you guys thank you!
I also appreciate that you have offered help in tweaking the message with W. I guess only thing why I have not been posting my thoughts to the board before sharing with W is that since Iīm in a different continent with most of you, it always takes a bit time to get an perspective and sometimes I feel that things happen in so fast pace. But I guess there should not be that much of a hurry in these kind of situations so will improve in this.
What fear does she actually have that SHE might lose YOU? Why is it so obvious that you are already willing to choose her regardless of what she says or does?
She's wanting time to see if OM will work out, and if not.....she knows you are sitting on ready to reconcile.
What I know is this:
I will only be open for recon if she completely disconnects with OM. If she will not stop A and cut every single connection, she will lose me. Period. And if she will not take the initiatives I outlined in my letter in that timeframe, I will start arranging divorce and cut off all other financial support than those that are stipulated by law. This is my decision.
However, there are two thoughts I would like to hear your opinion on:
1. Even if she would agree in my terms, she would still be able to keep in touch with OM if she wants. She could get another phone, email account or whatever, or basically whatever she could imagine as creative person. Sure, I know that I could hopefully see the change in heart (possibly), but she has proven to be very capable in lying. Any experiences how someone has coped with the situation?
2. Other thing is bit more complicated I assume
Guess it cannot be so that A turns the power balance etc. upside down when it comes to feelings of WW or can it? I mean that before she had an A, I felt that my neglecting etc has been big driver in pushing her away and not wanting to share her life with me. Now after A, why would she suddenly want it even if I do everything I outlined above (leaving her)? I can only think of 1 reason why please shout if you have more: the fact that she will actually lose me will be real. That could make her to think (at least in long term) what does she actually want and help to let the resentment towards me go. And if it does not lead there, I will feel anyways better for myself standing straight and not dealing with that A bs. I also remember I once red an opinion (might be from this site) that usually wayward behaviour does not end before they need to look the truth in the eye and realize that they will lose / have lost something that has been valuable for them.
So, I should know if couple of days how this goes. To be honest, I have 0 expectations that she wants to find her way back to me (I still have hopes though). Therefore, I have actually not even thought what would I say if she says that she wants to recon. On the other hand, I have thought what will I say if she still asks more time to think or why Iīm in such of a hurry. I was planning to say something along the lines:
I am not in hurry to anywhere, but under these circumstances I need prove from you that you want to work on our relationship. The decisions you have made with OM has caused that there is no longer such thing as us. Despite what happened, I have given us a chance and opened the door towards forgiveness. If you donīt want to grasp that chance right now, it tells me everything I need to know of your priorities.
Now itīs time for me to take the next step in my life without you.
And if she still is fishing how I feel, I will not expose any hurt, but say:
I feel clearer. I look to the future with open eyes and feel excited what will it bring for me.
How does the board feel?
Despite the HORRIBLE feeling I have felt in past few days, Iīm sure that I will stay alive and be happy someday.
I will begin detaching, continue gal and have 0 expectations. And love my great kids
I am not in hurry to anywhere, but under these circumstances I need prove from you that you want to work on our relationship. The decisions you have made with OM has caused that there is no longer such thing as us. Despite what happened, I have given us a chance and opened the door towards forgiveness. If you donīt want to grasp that chance right now, it tells me everything I need to know of your priorities.
Now itīs time for me to take the next step in my life without you.
And if she still is fishing how I feel, I will not expose any hurt, but say:
I feel clearer. I look to the future with open eyes and feel excited what will it bring for me.
Come on man, shes going see right through this nonsense. Like AS said it feels like your begging for another chance. If we can feel it the woman who has been with you for 15 years can feel it.
What is your plan for when she calls your bluff?
LH,
I will not to bend anywhere until she wants to be with me herself after an A.
Maybe Im bit poetic, but if I take the first sentence away I would be stronger right? I dont want to give impression that I will wait for her to come back after it didnt work w OM.
Seriously, I will have my own life but still I want to communicate in restrained but confident and determined terms.
One more thing:
If I need to take the next step and proceed w D and financial consequences, I assume MC should also be discontinued even if she ends the A? It could help us to solve issues from the past and be better functioning parents, but would you see there some major risks if that continues?
Naturally would not do anything of that nature if OM is in picture.
If she is in an A then MC is a waste of money. You could do counseling later on in the D process regarding functioning as better parents.
One more thing:
If I need to take the next step and proceed w D and financial consequences, I assume MC should also be discontinued even if she ends the A? It could help us to solve issues from the past and be better functioning parents, but would you see there some major risks if that continues?
Naturally would not do anything of that nature if OM is in picture.
Sorry, pressed submit twice...
Even if she would agree in my terms, she would still be able to keep in touch with OM if she wants. She could get another phone, email account or whatever, or basically whatever she could imagine as creative person. Sure, I know that I could hopefully see the change in heart (possibly), but she has proven to be very capable in lying. Any experiences how someone has coped with the situation?
If she wants to continue the A, she can find a way. For me, applying a transparency plan, helped me to stay on the straight & narrow. I was also reading about how affairs are addictive, the emotional results on women who go from man to man, testimony of real life experiences of meeting men on the Internet, and I was on the board reading every night. At that particular time, we could give our email information, so I had a couple of mentors who were talking to me throughout the roughest part of withdrawing from the addiction. If she takes it seriously, then she will need to be transparent.....b/c the temptation to contact OM will be great. You will need to verify WON she is being honest. I can tell you more about that later. She is not strong enough without help and support. The MR can't really progress a lot, until she can get OM out of her head.
Guess it cannot be so that A turns the power balance etc. upside down when it comes to feelings of WW or can it? I mean that before she had an A, I felt that my neglecting etc has been big driver in pushing her away and not wanting to share her life with me. Now after A, why would she suddenly want it even if I do everything I outlined above (leaving her)?
Look, you are thinking like a LBH. When you make those type of statements, you sound as if you justify her reasons to continue having an A and not to work on the MR. Those very thoughts are likely to hinder you, when it's time for you to be strong and lead in this whole transparency plan. Trust me, she will need you to have more strength than she has, b/c going through the withdrawals of the A will be very hard. I want you to remember what is most important.........her willingness. What she "wants" can't take priority over what she is willing to do. You are right, why should she suddenly want to end the A and be with you. The harsh truth is......she won't. A woman can't fall in and out of love that fast. Even when it's pseudo love, it takes time! What counts in this entire ordeal is her
willingness to do what is necessary to heal the MR.
Her feelings will follow her consistent actions, eventually. Currently, she is operating out of her emotions. The resentment and other issues will not be settled just b/c she agrees to reconcile. Those issues are why the couple needs professional guidance. So many couples don't survive piecing back the MR, b/c they don't understand the importance of help with their relationship problems. You both failed to do what was needed to have a good relationship. It won't be easy repairing it, but very possible.......if you get a good therapist that help couples heal after infidelity.
Therefore, I have actually not even thought what would I say if she says that she wants to recon.
I doubt she'll make it that simple. I think she will try to lay down her own terms. And should she say she'll give the M another chance.......she will
want to compromise what you've previously told her. She will
want to maintain her privacy, especially her phone. So, you had better be prepared and practice using various scenarios. She has to agree to your terms, or it won't work. That's not to say you should come across as a dictator, but you will need to be firm and don't compromise on the things you have told her. H's get scared they will not get the W back, and they go soft. That's a big mistake.
If she won't agree to all your terms of reconciliation, then tell her it's no deal. Don't continue to share an apartment. Go as dark as possible, and file for a D. It may take her actually seeing that she is losing you, before she ends the A and agrees to your R terms.
So - we had the conversation with wife and this is the status:
W said that she will commit in working out our issues from the past in counseling and cut the contact to OM as I outlined in the letter.
BUT, what she was not ready to commit, is the outcome of the counseling, namely if we would be a couple or not in the future. Frankly, this was the case also when we started the therapy - to solve past issues and see if we could find the emotional connection between us.
So, if we would go down that road, we would not have a "relationship" status, but only go to MC with mutual commitment (and actions outlined in my letter) that there would not be anyone else in picture meanwhile.
Itīs of course impossible to predict the MC outcome in any case, so in that sense Iīm kind of curious to see where it leads - we have appointments booked until beginning of June. So if itīs not going to work until that, then be it.
What Iīm curious about is what kind of signal it sends if I agree to this after OM, but it should be remembered that we did not have the result locked in the first place either...
How does this sound to the board?
G,
This is possible good news but I am still very skeptical. Cant you get in anywhere sooner? Did she agree to full transparency? These things typically dont turn around this quickly.
we have appointments booked until beginning of June.
Are you saying that you have appointments starting now and ending in June or that the appointment doesnt start until june? If you are waiting to start until June, that feels way too far away. A lot can happen in a few months.
I think she will try to lay down her own terms. And should she say she'll give the M another chance.......she will want to compromise what you've previously told her. She will want to maintain her privacy, especially her phone.
Did you read this ^^^^^^^^ in my previous post?
Hi,
No, they already started 3 weeks ago and we have sessions booked 1/week until June - the idea was that we give this last shot to solve our resentment etc issues.
What we did NOT agree though is to meet anyone else during the time, but with W that happened. At least now she says she is willing to cut contact to OM and give this last chance to our relationship...
Hi,
Did you read this ^^^^^^^^ in my previous post?
Yes I read, and thatīs why I got so suspicious...
At least the phone transparency is a must, along all other things in my list except dates for now.
Mean especially phone transparency
Donīt know if I should laugh or cry...
W was at her IC and said that she understood there that she should not do something if she is not 100% ready for that. And she cannot promise 100% transparency with phone (everything else was ok), since it would feel Iīm controlling her and it would not help build trust naturally. How did you know Sandi?!
Well, I answered that I am not going to attend MC as long as she will not agree to my transparency plan, and then we should just continue to process towards D.
I actually feel annoyed that she needs to push all boundaries, but naturally also fear that giving up MC opportunity might take away the last chance for reconciliation and united family.
Credits to my W for honesty this time for not willing to allow full transparency over phone. It would be easy for her to say that yes, I grant you the transparency over phone, since we only see couple times in a week (separated).
So once she knowīs Iīm coming, she could just erase all messages w OM, if they exist...
G,
Stick firm on your boundaries. She was unfaithful and has to earn your trust back. Anything less will be a waste of your time.
Transparency has nothing to do with you controlling her actions. She can choose to do whatever she wants. Transparency is her allowing you to "see". If she has nothing to hide, then why the need for secrecrecy?
People have their own opinions about trust. Ultimately, it is up to you, whether or not you feel you can trust her. I have seen LBH's say they choose to trust their WW......although she's made absolutely no move toward doing what is necessary to help the MR heal. Personally, I see it as very arrogant on the WW's part, to expect her betrayed H to trust her when she has put no effort into demonstrating her faithfulness. Not only does your WW think you should just trust her, she won't even commit to working on the MR. If she goes into MC with that type of attitude, what are the chances?
As I've previously explained, if she wants to carry on an A, she can easily find a way. That is not the point behind transparency, IMHO. Transparency is about her willingly opening herself for you to see that she has no hidden agenda. That's all it is. It helps to stomp out the secrecy and suspicions. If she cannot allow you to see that much.......then do you really want a MR with her? That is an answer you have to decide. I'm certainly not going to fall out with you, if that's what you decide. But I will tell you this much......I don't recall a successful restoration in the relationship, where there was no transparency......not when there had been an A. Maybe one will come to mind, but ATM, I can't think of one.
Are you saying that you have appointments starting now and ending in June or that the appointment doesnt start until june? If you are waiting to start until June, that feels way too far away. A lot can happen in a few months.
Just to let you know I took care of your appointment let me know if you need another!
Dears,
Iīve been offline for a while and have tried to figure out what have happened and make things straight in my head. Last couple of weeks after I found out my wife had an EA&PA have been the most emotional time for me in my life. I have allowed myself to grief and feel empty. Iīve cried a lot and it has helped. I have also been able to stop my obsessive thoughts about dirty details of my wifeīs affair so the pictures donīt haunt me so much anymore despite the huge pain is still there.
Iīm journaling a bit now, since I have a lot on my mind.
W ended the affair and said to the OM that she will not be in contact with him while we are figuring our things out. It was not so final that I hoped for - obviously she has feelings for him... But she has been open about the message that the OM sent to her but where she did not reply to. Sure, I know that she can lie. I know that since we are separated, she even could visit him if she wants and I would not know. But I made a decision to trust her now. I cannot control her each step - it would make me grazy.
My attitude towards my wife is now as if we just met. I donīt judge, control or expect too much (which is hardest part for me). I am open and share my feelings, and why, I will explain later. We will go to the counceling together once a week, and talk and have lunches together weekly.
There has now been two emotional focused conceling sessions after I found out the PA. Oh boy, they are amazing! We got immidiately to the levels, we never been in our marriage. We both have cried and felt unexperienced connection. This approach is totally different of what Iīve used to before.
I have learned to understand more of my wifeīs feelings toward me. My wife cried at the session and revealed that she never felt that I thought she would be good enough for me. She cried that she had tried to open up and offer herself for me, but was constantly rejected. How she felt that I was not interested in her thoughts or feelings. This was not particulary new info, but this was different: when I listened and expressed my feelings of sorry that she felt that way in our marriage, she told that for the first time she felt I really meant it - that her feelings mattered something for me. Revolution, but a late one.
I also got to say for the first time(!?) that I was longing for her acceptance - the "being proud of me" -look in her eyes that I never got. That everything I did (actions), I did in trying to earn her appreciation. She expressed that she never knew that I was interested in having her appreciation - that I have been so confident, independent and secure, that she did not think I would need it from her, or would be interested in having that from her. That I already got so much admiration from the others, that she did not want to boost that anymore. She explained that how bad she felt all the time when I was out travelling with work and having company parties and picturing all these ladies trying to pick me up that eventually she just needed to amortize these feelings of jealousy - forget me.
Then I realized that my detachment that I practiced for 3-4 months now has pushed her even further away from me. She experienced that how she felt I was as cold and distant as I was in our marriage. That I was not emotionally interested in her or accepting her, I just wanted to have her back because I decided so. For the kids, for the security etc. but not because of her...
So now, knowing that many of you here donīt maybe agree, but I decided as my last option to do 180 in that. I decided to be open of my feelings, share my inner world with her and open my heart - even if it would mean telling about longing for her. She never felt I needed her, so even if it would backfire me, I want to be honest and make her feel special and that she is perfect just the way she is. So even if it backfires, I donīt need to think later that I never gave her the feeling she was special.
It is so obvious that she wants to be admired. When we have had conversations after revealing PA, it has came in to my knowledge that she had feelings also towards another guy she briefly met back in September - only two times. And he was not even her type, but he made my wife feel secure. She said she never felt secure with me, because I was "expecting perfection" and was judgemental if I was not pleased in something. So she clearly is longing for acceptance and when she gets it, she falls to almost any guy (?!). I feel so bad that I never made her feel that special one...
So now when I have opened my heart to her, everything hurts so much more. Iīm thinking about my W texting with other guy, thinking of him etc. And the fact that she donīt know if she wants to spend her life with me is hurting the most. I can now understand how important detaching is in to be able to heal and move on. But I rather take this pain now for few more months and look to the end to see if there was anything left for us. I made decision to be fully committed on my side to be open and to fully get to the deep emotional levels in the councelling to see if that works (if no OM in picture). We have sessions booked until midsummer and if there is not any progress, then itīs time to evaluate if it works or not. If not, I will start detaching and move on. Still not closing the door from the wife, but also keeping my eyes open for other possibilities life will bring. I have had heavy GAL going on already for 6 months including gym 5-7 times/week, rekindeling my old friendships, proactively talking with people etc, and that will continue.
Funny little add-on: my wife told to me yesterday how she feels that sheīs been living in some kind of "fog" for the past two years (the time she has been wanting to go), but that now it feels that itīs becoming clearer. I donīt know, maybe itīs quoted from a "WW manual", but hopefully this is the case. Iīm also more than aware, that everything my wife is saying or doing should not be believed at the moment, but the decisions I made was made for myself. To be able to think that "hey, at least you tried everything. No regrets. Be proud of yourself even if it hurts for a while"
Talk to you soon!
avannut -vsattuuand hato anymore. It was not so
sorry for last sentence - some weird typo....
What you had was not detachment but judgement.
If you do that which works and a 180, then it's not more of the same! If in your R you have been cold and distance (for instance) then in a separation being more cold and distant isn't a 180. It's more of the same.
Detachment isn't about being cold, it is about doing that which is right for you.
V
If you do that which works and a 180, then it's not more of the same!
Yes, I can see it now. I was so afraid not to smother her after she said she needed space that I appeared as cold as before. She felt I donīt care for her, I just had a "fixation" in my head that I want to save our marriage on principle. 180 for me is to open up and share my feelings with her and let her feel herself accepted as she is.
How detachment works under these circumstances would be nice to master if that even is possible...
Any tips?
Best,
G
I have also been thinking that even if this has been tough journey, it has been needed for me to wake up and to be a better person. I feel that going abroad for work assignment 4 years ago was the final nail to coffin of our marriage, since she felt so lonely there and I was stressed with work. Also in the expat assignment happened what my wife described was the thing made her closing her heart for good: she got miscarriage and she felt that I prioritized work over her and abandoned her when she needed me the most. I did not feel it that dramatically, but for sure should have been there more. This is the single situation in our marriage that I regret the most.
If we would have not gone to that assignment, we still maybe would be together.
But do I regret we went? No.
Since even if we would have been stayed together, the underlying problems would be there. We would be together, but we (and my wife) would not be happy. This crisis have made me a better man, and if we get another chance with my dear wife, she gets the man that she deserves. If she will not want to continue with me, I will be wiser in my potential next relationship.
GettinT, my WW could have said much the same things that your wife did. I too had the wrong idea of detachment and therefore was afraid that it would drive her away because of my past behavior. I too was critical and judgmental. And due to my W's relationship with her father (where she never felt good enough), she felt she married someone just like him.
I too am sad that I never made her feel (until recently) how special she always has been too me. I like you want her approval and appreciation and I couldn't give a care for anyone else's approval and appreciation. Her's is the ONLY approval and appreciation I care about. (Yes I know detachment says I shouldn't but....)
DBing and DRing is not a one size fits all. The experts here will tell you that. Do what works. If something doesn't work stop doing it. However, the techniques taught by MWD and here will work 99% of the time.
Thanks for the update and keep posting!
Steve85,
Rings a bell.
And due to my W's relationship with her father (where she never felt good enough)
I also have been hearing many times until recently how I remind of her stepfather... He was very abusive also physically, which I never did, but she felt that my way of criticizing reminded of him.
I have actually sometimes felt that the "ghost" of her stepfather has been living between me and my wife...
Even after the PA she said she felt that she put me in her stepfather shoes - when she was living at home she needed to have secret relationship with her boyfriend since stepfather did not approve it. According to her, she was repeating this trauma with OM. Who knows, but very peculiar...
But I made a decision to trust her now. I cannot control her each step - it would make me grazy.
No, you cannot trust a lying cheater. You have to LET GO of her, not trust her. There is a big difference there.
I am open and share my feelings, and why, I will explain later.
Just be careful with that. When dealing with a WAS it's important to listen and validate, to get THEM to share their feelings. You however should not be doing the same, because to a WAS it just sounds like you're trying to make everything about you. You need to be a rock, a foundation of stone during this.
This was not particulary new info, but this was different: when I listened and expressed my feelings of sorry that she felt that way in our marriage, she told that for the first time she felt I really meant it - that her feelings mattered something for me. Revolution, but a late one.
Good, that sounds like some excellent validation!
Then I realized that my detachment that I practiced for 3-4 months now has pushed her even further away from me.
Then you weren't detaching. Detaching is letting go in a LOVING fashion. It is NOT being cold, rude and indifferent. Detaching is what Sandi's rules are all about, and if you read them they are all geared towards the LBS letting go while creating a positive vibe towards the WAS and keeping the way home paved and smooth. THAT is detachment.
So she clearly is longing for acceptance and when she gets it, she falls to almost any guy (?!). I feel so bad that I never made her feel that special one...
Don't beat yourself up too much. It sure sounds like she has self-esteem issues and could benefit from some IC. It is not your job to make her feel good about herself, she should ALREADY feel good about herself and your support is just icing on the cake. But she sounds broken and she wants to blame that on you. That's not your fault. And by the way, you can't fix her now either.
Still not closing the door from the wife, but also keeping my eyes open for other possibilities life will bring. I have had heavy GAL going on already for 6 months including gym 5-7 times/week, rekindeling my old friendships, proactively talking with people etc, and that will continue.
Perfect!!
How detachment works under these circumstances would be nice to master if that even is possible...
Any tips?
i think it does work... but it's hard to get there... the LBS is so afraid to offend the WW/WA spouse... i think the WW/WA will usually think it's cold at first, even if the LBS is not being cold... it's just all new behavior...
my thought is, "i'm sorry if i seem cold, but you're pretty damn cold yourself leaving our marriage..." the LBS needs to let the WW/WA deal with the detachment...
as a WAW, i felt my husband's detachment at coldness in the beginning... oh well... what did i expect? but after awhile, i saw that he was getting on with his life... living it... he didn't need me... he was doing things with friends, with our sons, with his family... what felt like coldness in the beginning eventually went away... he hadn't ever been cold at all... he was detaching... and he let me deal with it... he didn't apologize to me... and i didn't deserve an apology...
as always, mis dos centasvos...
--artista
Artista,
Thanks for insight!
Was your husband cold and distant in your marriage before you wanted to go?
Artista, did his detachment draw you in?
AS,
Then you weren't detaching. Detaching is letting go in a LOVING fashion.
I see that I might have been too black and white in detaching - or understood it wrong. I went too dark in my circumstances, but I red again detachment thread (and letting go thread as well), and itīs quite balanced information.
"I am open and share my feelings, and why, I will explain later."
Just be careful with that. When dealing with a WAS it's important to listen and validate, to get THEM to share their feelings. You however should not be doing the same, because to a WAS it just sounds like you're trying to make everything about you. You need to be a rock, a foundation of stone during this.
I totally agree with importance of validating - it has not been my strong side in the marriage. But since I have been neglecting W in marriage I feel that I need to open up eventually - even if it would be too late now - just to try that out. I know many of us here have been in same situation in our marriage, let it run in autopilot, yet still most are avoiding opening heart and sharing feelings when DBing. This topic seems controversial(at least from my pov), but I feel that Iīm playing games if I feel something I donīt share - do you know the feeling?
My W have never felt the admiration and heard feelings from my side in marriage, so Iīm struggling to understand how it would backfire me more if I donīt share my feelings with her now? She is on her way out anyways. Also, she said after last MC that since I always was so "cool" and would get anyone I wanted, she never felt important or wanted. But I never wanted anyone else than her - I just lacked in showing that...
Iīm sorry if I seem to be hard-headed regarding not sharing my feelings. Iīd just love to understand that a bit more...
Hi,
I downloaded an app, which reminds me to report me mood three times a day in scale from 1 to 10, and also allows to write a bit of notes what contributed in my feelings. Looking back I see that there is a direct link between how itīs going with W with my mood. Even if Iīm at gym and sun is shining, I miss W and mood is bad. When W gives a bit of positive signals, mood goes up despite what else happens.
Quite natural i guess under the circumstances, but still I find this concerning. I have even thought if I have some kind of codependency issues or if I just have been obsessed in what I canīt get - wife? I need to learn more about detachment in loving fashion - not neglecting but to REALLY having no expectations what so ever. That is hard, since I TRULY wish we could rekindle our R in some point. But back to previous sentence again - out of LOVE towards her or that I want to have things I canīt get(or dream of family), Iīm not 100% sure. I know that I love her, but I guess my head is just a bit mess now... Also there are these typical fears of loneliness and if I never love anyone like my wife again.
Guess I need to read letting go and detachment threads over and over again, but implementing those things in real life is not that easy Iīm afraid - at least for me.
Even if Iīm at gym and sun is shining, I miss W and mood is bad. When W gives a bit of positive signals, mood goes up despite what else happens.
Completely normal this early after BD. It gets better slowly over time.
Quite natural i guess under the circumstances, but still I find this concerning. I have even thought if I have some kind of codependency issues or if I just have been obsessed in what I canīt get - wife?
Codependency gets discussed here like it's a bad word, but it is completely normal and natural in a lengthy marriage to have at least some amount of codependency. I mean isn't that what M is, being there for each other? Having someone there when you're hurting and needy? Being there for them when they are the same? Helping each other with errands and such? So of course when that person is suddenly gone you feel a huge loss and you think about them and miss them. If your W died would people tell you "you just need to get over it and move on"? Of course not, they would be sympathetic to your grief. Yet ironically when your spouse leave you that's EXACTLY what people tell you! What you are feeling is normal and takes time to work through.
Also there are these typical fears of loneliness and if I never love anyone like my wife again.
That's normal too. I knew I was finally recovering when I was able to say to myself "I may very well be alone the rest of my life, and I am OK with that." Part of recovery is learning to love yourself again, and to feel whole even when you are by yourself.
Hi,
I really hope that someday (and not in super distant future) I can truthfully look in the mirror and say:
"I may very well be alone the rest of my life, and I am OK with that."
For now it looks difficult.
I think one reason being that as I mentioned earlier, I have opened my heart to wife again when everything is more painful. When I was more in dark (thought that was detaching), life felt easier. I thought: "She does what she does, itīs not your business. She does not report to you, you donīt report to her". That was clear, but cold. It takes time and man to really let go, but in a loving manner.
Also weird thing I noticed: I feel that my wife have become more beautiful and attractive lately. She was photographed for one project and posted the pics to Instagram. When I looked at the pictures, I thought: "Why did she never see her like this when everything was good? Why did I never treated her like a treasure, which I would now if she would only let me?" This feeling makes it even harder to let her go... I would want to go there proudly and say "this is my woman"! Hurts to realize how I had chance more than 10 years, but we almost never hold hands walking etc. Well, what do you know...
Have any of you guys experienced that your wife become sexier and started to blossom when she wants out?
Rejection breeds obsession thats what you are going through. As humans we want what we cant have.
Alright,
Itīs time to do bit of journaling again - have been a week with kids and this is first time I opened laptop on non-work-related matters.
It has happened quite a lot, but I try to be concise at straight to the point.
Firstly, biggest change I see in me is, that I think and educate myself more on things related to "how to survive divorce and create happy life on your own" rather than "how to save your marriage". Past 2,5 I have been 100% dedicated in fixing my marriage (except 4 months at fall 2016 when was highly stressed from work) and especially since last summer I have done everything in my power to make things right without begging and other injurious ways (tried at least!). I donīt mean that I have signed off mentally, but I have started to accept inevitable: without a miracle, we do not have a future as a couple with my wife. We still get to the emotionally focused therapy once a month, and Iīm committed to that, but I have set a time-limit for myself: if there is not progress until midsummer, I will drop the rope.
In addition to the MC, we have one touchpoint weekly where we discuss R matters. What I have learned to understand from my wife is that:
1. She cannot think relationship with me know, since she feels that she canīt "grow" to the person she has meant to be if sheīs together with me. Sounds familiar I guess?
2. She had a fear, that if she would have had left me off the cuff, I would have taken vengeance against her in some way - financially, regarding kids etc. She said she had seen how dedicated I have sometimes been in demanding justice.
On the other hand, she has given also some very opposite messages during a week, which Iīm not quite sure what to think of... She has sent me following text messages:
- "I have now realized what it would require from me to feel good with you again: I should learn to be with you in whole different way... and when Iīm used to be with you one way, any other way feels so strange"
I have not yet asked that what is the way she thinks she has been with me. Anyhow, following message brings me even more questions:
- "When we have managed our problems in rational ways, it has not enabled us to meet on emotional level... It would have been nice to do things with you in irrational way just because we feel like it... without a need to be rational about it"
Even if I donīt know what she would have liked to do, I would not have hurt to try it... Then yesterday she sent me this:
- "for some reason I miss you and us so much"
Even it feels nice, that she sends these kind of texts, I try not to get my hopes high. I still donīt expect anything more that we will be divorced, everything else is nice surprise.
But I still cannot help but feel sorry that our story is so textbook example of how things usually goes. Wife in her 40īs after 10+ years of marriage wants to grow. I have heard every classical lines from her you can imagine. Itīs so sad I think... And yes, I know what we could have done differently to prevent us being here.
I just feel that we could have so much to accomplish with all the understanding we have now, and how they say that after reconciliation marriage can have passion that has never been there before. However, I need to admit that this story is not in my hands unfortunately.
I donīt know if it matters, but I have started feel that my W is not that much of WW, but WAW (loss of love). Yes, there was PA, but that was initiated by emotional needs. She has not had that much of GGW behaviour that I have understood WWs usually have and she is very committed with the kids. As said, donīt know if it affects anything, but this is how I figured it out.
What it comes to my personal journey, I have found new layers of feelings from me: feelings of coping with uncertainty. This is something I have tried to ALWAYS avoid previously with all the costs possible. But now I need to except that I do not know what the future will bring what it comes to our R. And even itīs painful feeling, it has a taste of life in it!
No matter what happens between me and my W, Iīm sure that surrendering myself dealing with uncertainty will help me in my life, since life is uncertain.
We still get to the emotionally focused therapy once a month
Sorry - once a week.
Dear board,
Itīs my week again at the apartment and W is with the kids.
Iīve tried to do some thinking and make a plan how to move forward.
At the moment our status is like this:
-We both spend every other week with kids, but do not share nesting apartment anymore. Iīhave the apartment and W is living at her motherīs flat but is looking apartment as well
-Affair is not going on and there is no contact to OM, although Iīm aware everything can happen underground
-We still attend very good MC once a week, and we both are committed to it without any expectations of end result
-My GAL is going quite well, I see my friends quite much, live a healthy lifestyle (my W have noticed Iīve gained muscles), and I have started to expand my social network (joined Toastmasters and one support group for guys)
-I am willing to work things out with W, but if there is no progress until midsummer, I will drop rope and move forward. I may leave door open to wife, but will prioritize my healing and keep eyes open for opportunities life brings ahead
-My net income is double compared to my W, and at the moment I cover all the living costs/kids needs until the point we have as much to spend. I have decided to continue this until I drop the rope or affair starts again
-We have seen a bit more with W, done some training together and even watched some TV close together. We also have one date-weekend planned in next month, where we agreed that she plans first evening activities and I plan the second.
My biggest concern at them moment is that what is the best level of revealing my feelings and talking about R.
As I have said, I donīt have any expectations, but since she have said (as I written in previous post) that she would need to learn new way of being with me, I initiated the date with her and proposed that both of us just comes in as we are - no learned behavior patterns if possible (hardly I guess).
I have not said ILY or anything like that, but due to my neglecting history, I have shared my thoughts and feelings more than some might suggest, in other words I have been quite open to just try that out before dropping the rope.
Any comments - should I talk R at our situation?
Real quick:
Do not vomit your feelings on her that is not masculine energy.
Do more research on dropping the rope its not something you try out.
I would keep moving forward as you have been and not bring up R talks... it hasn't been that long.
Its hard I know but patience is the key.
When your W is ready she will bring up the R or M talk. You keep moving forward.
If things don't change by mid summer you will drop the rope, why?
What would be your reason for dropping the rope if things stayed steady through mid summer? Patience is the key. IMO you should reevaluate mid summer if things don't change but not drop the rope.
It's great to have a plan. IMO, take it a day at a time. Live today, don't worry about tomorrow and let the past rest.
Thanks for a replies, much appreciated!
Do more research on dropping the rope its not something you try out.
I did not find any thread on that, but will look for more info!
What would be your reason for dropping the rope if things stayed steady through mid summer?
At the moment there are no signs that W would want to continue in relationship with me. Yes, she is committed to MC to find out IF something would start to move inside of her, but I have not yet seen any evidence of that.
I just feel that if there is no progress until summer (if nothing has started to move inside her towards me/us and she just wants out), what more can I do? The past couple of years I have been doing everything to save our marriage and I am emotionally quite worn.
I understand that I just need to continue detaching and healing but I know my wife, and she does not want to live limbo any longer. If she has not find her feelings towards me, she wants to be free to follow her heart, even towards other guys. I donīt think she necessary would do that, but I donīt think she could commit to be faithful to me either.
And if she cannot commit to that, what else could I do than "drop a rope" and continue forward in my end? If my wife opens the possibility for her to date others, shouldnīt I just admit that "thatīs it"?
And if in some later stage in life if she and I happen to be available and having feelings towards each other - who knows what happens...
Am I totally off track here?
If you feel W in not into R yet then most definitely do not initiate R talks.
You set your own timeline.
But, remember your W needs time to see that any changes in you are true, genuine and stick.
So if you are wanting to save your M... keep following DB and GAL and work on yourself. Continue to detatch.
You will notice signs of W wanting to work on R but note that I think putting a deadline of this summer is in my book too short a timeframe from what you listed were issues in your M. That really isn't enough time for your W to see that your changes are for real.
Good Luck
KitCat,
Maybe I went a bit ahead of things. My mind is already planning my actions at the point where I see my wife wanting to start a single lifestyle. Honestly, I see that coming when our planned sessions to MC will end at summer (if she still has same mindset than now).
I do want to save my marriage, so surely, if she donīt start dating, I will exercise patience.
What it comes to changes, I think she recognizes that I am different man that I used to be. She has just "fell out of love" with me and wants to feel the emotional connection with me before she can think starting over again...
By all means set your boundaries on what you feel you can and can not deal with... If WAW starts dating then I'm done. Fine.
However, STOP trying to predict how she will feel at X point in time. You have no idea. And, the only person you can control is yourself.
Don't think for a minute that if MC ends that the end of your hopes to repair your relationship. You might be surprised that you have WAY more control your M improving than any MC does.
If I had relied on MC - I would be divorced. Worst experience in my life. We got 20min of her time and she said she didn't want to see us again and that we were a waste of her time.
I am hear to tell you - I saved my marriage.
So start working and keep working on your issues. Continue GAL. Become the H you should have been and then let your W see what she would be missing.
My biggest concern at them moment is that what is the best level of revealing my feelings and talking about R.
As I have said, I donīt have any expectations, but since she have said (as I written in previous post) that she would need to learn new way of being with me, I initiated the date with her and proposed that both of us just comes in as we are - no learned behavior patterns if possible (hardly I guess).
I have not said ILY or anything like that, but due to my neglecting history, I have shared my thoughts and feelings more than some might suggest, in other words I have been quite open to just try that out before dropping the rope.
Just a few days ago you were saying:
In addition to the MC, we have one touchpoint weekly where we discuss R matters.
And previous to that post, was you describing how you had revealed all your feelings to your W in MC. Today, you are still wanting to pursue your W and talk more about your feelings. Have you considered that your W does not care what you feel? And if she doesn't care, then she doesn't want to hear you go on & on about it.
I won't take time to copy and paste the various quotes to try and show you what I mean, but to summarize.......I think your W is feeding you a lot of babble. In other words......b.s. She is cake eating to the max, b/c she gets a week with her kids, a week to do whatever she wants without any accountability, and you pay the expenses. All she does is attend MC sessions, where she feeds you more babble......and you play along with whatever she wants.
Look, I get you were negligent in the past. I get that you are sorry, and that you are head over heels in love with her. I get out desparately you want to be with her, how you think she has become even more beautiful than ever.......yada, yada, yada. But you aren't getting the fact she doesn't want to have an exclusive MR with you. Perhaps she has tried to tell you, but you aren't hearing what she says.........you are hearing what you
want her to say. She wants to date other men. You foolishly tell yourself that she is not contacting OM, but truthfully, you don't know what she is doing. It is what you
choose to believe!
Not only are you not detached, but you are obsessed with the belief that if you two discuss your feelings
enough.....it will eventually bring you together again. Frankly, I think she's stalling for time, b/c she laid out her terms and you took hook, line and sinker.
As long as you are picking up the tab, why wouldn't she dangle you along? All she has to do is sprinkle a few crumbs and suffer through a few sessions of MC, and she gets her bills paid.
I donīt know if it matters, but I have started feel that my W is not that much of WW, but WAW (loss of love). Yes, there was PA, but that was initiated by emotional needs. She has not had that much of GGW behaviour that I have understood WWs usually have and she is very committed with the kids. As said, donīt know if it affects anything, but this is how I figured it out.
And finally, the classic move of thinking this woman is not wayward, but a WAW. You can make excuses for her PA, claim she really didn't have too much GGW behavior, and she's a wonderful mother.........if that helps you to cope. Actually, I could (and did) make the same claim that my H neglected me and I had an A out of emotional need. I did not act like GGW, either. Did I have a loss of love? Yep, pretty much! Was I a WW? You betcha!
Here's what I learned about the whole "commitment" issue that waywards want to resist when first talks of reconciling begin. Without commitment, there will be a loophole, an excuse, some reason the relationship just can't work. You and your W can spend years in MC, but I have doubts of its success without commitment. I think you are trying to talk her into committing, but she needs to make that decision......free of you pressing her about it.
At this point, I think you probably need to stop finding a label for her that suits you. I suggest you end MC and seek IC with a different therapist. You need to heal and figure yourself out, before trying to figure her out. Put time and distance between the two of you. Free her to "grow" as much as she likes, while you learn to do the same. Then later down the road, maybe the two of you can find your way back together. But for now......you constantly wanting to pursue and have more R talks with her, is only pushing her away and hurting future chances.
If you intend to be healthy in this "journey", you need to stop your obsession.
However, I need to admit that this story is not in my hands unfortunately.
That is true, so why not let it go?
Thanks for encouraging words!
So, this is what just happened:
My W went to American Car show with kids and BFF (WW she hangs around a lot with).
She sent me a message asking a practical question, and I replied and asked if they had fun at the exhibition. She replied yes, was nice to see all those old cars and hear that 50īs music (her parents had this 50īs lifestyle when she was a child).
Then she sends me the following message:
"But an awkward situation happened: daughter badgered one teddy bear when my īaffair partnerī threw himself into the scene (yes, she put affair partner into quotation marks)... He heard that daughter wanted the toy and paid it to cashier... everything happened so fast and I got frightened that he was suddenly there so that I could not say anything... when daughter asked who that was I lied that he was (BFFs) friend... I really did not know he would come there!! I did not expect that at all!! Iīm sorry
"
First I was just silent, but when she asked me to comment it, I texted that I felt bad about it and that it was odd co-incidence. She replied that probably she had mentioned about going to that exhibition when they had A, but since she have not had any contact with him since, he should not have known which day/time my W would go there. I said I donīt want to communicate by texting, but since kids were there, she asked if we can have a call tomorrow.
I donīt know what to think... She might tell the truth or not. I have tendency to believe that if she would have wanted to meet him, she might not wanted to do that where my kids are, but rather when is her week alone. But who knows. Yes, it was nice that she pro-actively told me, but even if she really did not expect to see him, would she have mentioned it to me if my daughter wouldnīt have seen him?
Letīs see what she says when I talk with her tomorrow. My first reaction was just that f*ck it, I deserve something better. All the painful memories of A and lying about it came back. I thought that just do what you want, Iīm done with this BS. I want a woman who wants to be with me.
Well, I needed to vent a bit here, but I need to admit that Iīm frustrated. How have you guys coped with frustration?
Sandi,
just saw your last post, and I think you are right. I will read it through with a thought and come back.
My first reaction was just that f*ck it, I deserve something better. All the painful memories of A and lying about it came back. I thought that just do what you want, Iīm done with this BS. I want a woman who wants to be with me.[/quote]
^^^^^^ Exactly. Now what are you going to do about it?
Sandi,
You quite much nailed my mindset Iīm afraid.
But you aren't getting the fact she doesn't want to have an exclusive MR with you. Perhaps she has tried to tell you, but you aren't hearing what she says.........you are hearing what you want her to say.
Not only are you not detached, but you are obsessed with the belief that if you two discuss your feelings enough.....it will eventually bring you together again.
To be honest to myself, this is completely correct. She has told me that at the moment she donīt want to have relationship with me. But I want to "turn every stone" as I have also said in the therapy... Feels bad to admit it, but I am obsessed.
At this point, I think you probably need to stop finding a label for her that suits you. I suggest you end MC and seek IC with a different therapist. You need to heal and figure yourself out, before trying to figure her out. Put time and distance between the two of you. Free her to "grow" as much as she likes, while you learn to do the same.
I get this, but first things first: if I end MC, Iīm afraid that if we end up not being together, I will regret that since getting to that therapist has been really big effort and we have got to taste what the emotional connection feels like (at least in my mind?). I see that I have this pattern of doing everything I can so that I donīt have regrets later.
BUT, I also know that W is not committed to R and maybe as you said, also wants to date another men. By letting her "grow" as much as she likes, I should also acknowledge this. And if she has a possibility to date other men, thatīs a deal breaker for me.
SO, as LH asked,
Now what are you going to do about it?
Iīve got an idea, but please help me to fine tune it.
I could say something along the lines of:
"I guess that I have not listened enough your will to end our relationship. Since you are not committed to our reconciliation, the MC does not make sense. I have not seen any active steps from youīre side, but you just hang along. You clearly have an issues to solve for your self, where I cannot help you. So go and grow. I know that I deserve something better. I want a woman who wantīs to be with me or nothing."
Then I could stop paying any other expenses than required by law, and let her live her life as she wants. Talking only kids and finance stuff with her.
But after this new scenario, Iīm sure sheīd probably go to see OM or others, and I have need to define terms in my head as well to get a clear ground rules with other women. If my W is dating other guys, I donīt see myself a married man either.
Having said all this, this feel so radical step to take. I know that Iīm obsessed, but Iīm afraid doing things that I might regret later.
On the other hand, I want to take my stand for me to be able to respect myself.
I guess I need a bit of peer support here...
One more question to the board:
What if she asks that can we date others now if we stop MC?
Should I just reply that you do what you want and I do what I want?
If she tells you she wants to date others if you stop MC, you tell her, "to put in the divorce papers" and she can date whonshe wants. You won't agree to that and if she wants to move on you won't stand in her way. You also won't sit around waiting on her. GAL hard. Start enjoying life. Go do things you have never done but always wanted to do.
You have a life as well. Live it. Become interesting and mysterious.
Yes, I have life as well I need to live.
Anyways, W called me today and I pretty much said what I mentioned above. It feels such a huge relief - like a big weight had been lifted from my shoulders. I feel that I have taken my stand that I deserve better than being in limbo for years.
Of course, at the same time I feel very sad. And frightened about will I ever learn to love again.
I also said to my W that Iīm not comfortable communicating via WhatsApp anymore. She just has a habit of sending me these short messages via that app, and it stresses me out that i need to reply fast after I have red it. Also, since she was earlier communicating with OM via WhatsApp (and freaking WW BFF ALL the time), I hate that app. Maybe itīs odd, but itīs how I feel. So i said to W that if she has something in her mind concerning kids, she can either call me or send an SMS/email...
Well, now she sent me this SMS:
"Iīm so deeply sorry and sad that I canīt (get back feelings for me)!! I know that you have changed. You have worked so hard to save our relationship.... Iīm so deeply sad and disappointed to myself, that it has not changed my feelings for you. I think that it happened too late.. everything happened too late.. I miss you and us terribly much"
And she also sent:
"Should we just go to the counselling one more time, to address these feelings and having closure?"
I donīt know how to answer the last message... I know it would not likely change anything, but still the obsessed me would want to check that out...
I think you have pushed for answers way too soon.
You shouldn't be the least bit surprised. You keep dumping your feelings out there and you anticipated that she wasn't there yet... you knew deep down she wasn't there yet.
You feel better for having dumped your emotional mess on her but only for a short time... you are already feeling some panic and fear that you have cut your own rope.
She doesn't want to hurt you and I'm sure she feels some guilt for your sadness - she is ILYBINILWY... they often will tell you they can't get their feelings back or its too late... blah blah blah.
She just admitted she saw you changing but it hasn't been long enough for her to know those changes are real and are going to stick.
You kept pushing... constantly pushing discussing R and that pushes the WW right out the door.
Stop communicating via the app if you despise it so... do not respond to her texts... let her wonder what's going on with G.. and G you need to get out and GAL. You need to stop putting your emotional mess back in her lap.
G,
You are your own worst enemy right now and I always tell people you cant make things better right now but you can make them worse. Before every move you make you should ask yourself will this make me look strong or make me look weak. Talking about your feelings to her weak. Give her time and space to figure out what each others wants and kicking the $hit out of life strong..
We told you a transparency plan was a must and you didnt listen. My hunch is she went to fair with OM and he won the Bear and they panicked about what if you asked where it came from.
You feel better for having dumped your emotional mess on her but only for a short time... you are already feeling some panic and fear that you have cut your own rope.
I know. I feel nuts with emotions going from one end to another. But I need to stick in detaching and not letting her to bounce me all around. Giving her the space and cutting the cake eating. Need to get my own [censored] together.
Whatīs G by the way?
Hi Gettin! Thatīs right. You need to detach. It takes time: your time. Try to keep your mind in peace. You canīt control your W. You must work on yourself. Go dark, detach and start GAL.
I agree with LH about the bear...sorry.
Stay strong man. Be pacient.
LH & Neffer,
Thanks for perspective!
I understand that I have not appeared to be strong lately in my communication with W. I guess I was too worried that I give more of the same if I kept my feelings inside. I just need to wake up and acknowledge that my situation is different now - W do not want R with me. I need to stop punishing myself for the past and take responsibility of creating happiness that comes from within.
Iīm also totally aware that W could have been keeping the contact with OM, even intentionally meet him at fair. But still I donīt think they went or spent time together there, since my kids were there as well.
I donīt dear to be loud of my GAL or detaching plans that how good they look, since honestly - itīs not going so well as I guess everybody who have red my thread knows. Feels that I have lost myself during this process. But I will take small steps to right direction and hopefully in time I got to be that grounded man I want to be. The man who is happy with or without people around him.
"I guess that I have not listened enough your will to end our relationship. Since you are not committed to our reconciliation, the MC does not make sense. I have not seen any active steps from youīre side, but you just hang along. You clearly have an issues to solve for your self, where I cannot help you. So go and grow. I know that I deserve something better. I want a woman who wantīs to be with me or nothing."
Anyways, W called me today and I pretty much said what I mentioned above. It feels such a huge relief - like a big weight had been lifted from my shoulders. I feel that I have taken my stand that I deserve better than being in limbo for years.
Of course, at the same time I feel very sad. And frightened about will I ever learn to love again.
If you want our take on things, you need to wait 48 hrs, at least, before you act on it. I think the book recommends 72 hrs......so, that would be even better. If you are going to act on emotions anyway.......why bother asking the board? See what I mean? Your impatience is another emotion you aren't controlling very well.
"Iīm so deeply sorry and sad that I canīt (get back feelings for me)!! I know that you have changed. You have worked so hard to save our relationship.... Iīm so deeply sad and disappointed to myself, that it has not changed my feelings for you. I think that it happened too late.. everything happened too late.. I miss you and us terribly much"
And she also sent:
"Should we just go to the counselling one more time, to address these feelings and having closure?"
I donīt know how to answer the last message... I know it would not likely change anything, but still the obsessed me would want to check that out...
You know you are going! In fact, I'd bet you've already told her that you wanted one more session. And, if the MC can instruct you in the best way to communicate in the future, then fine. On the other hand.......if you use the session as another opportunity to share your feelings, then I'd recommend against it. However, I think you'll do it anyway, b/c you can't help yourself!
One more question to the board:
What if she asks that can we date others now if we stop MC?
Should I just reply that you do what you want and I do what I want?
Don't be naive. She's already dating, and she's not going to ask for permission. If she asks.......it will only be so she won't feel that she has to hide it from you. The OM was with her when he gave the teddy bear to your daughter. There was no accidental meeting at the same event. Your W was just covering her tracks b/c she knew the child would probably say something to tip you off.
As someone has already mentioned, you are your worst enemy at the moment. You've got to stop your mouth from the runs. And for goodness sake, stop saying things to her that you pick up from the board. Like, telling her you deserve better, etc. What is meant for
your ears, aren't necessarily meant for
her ears.