Here is my original thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2778449#Post2778449Thank you to all who have been holding me accountable and have given me advice. It is greatly appreciated. The advice is huge but more importantly is the cathartic nature of posting here. Since I never did really take up journaling as so many marriage fix experts recommend, this is the closest I come to it.
Just a brief update. W went to dinner with her best friend last night. Her best friend is also a member of the church and is a huge influence on my WW. If not for her and her other close church friends, whom would not approve of her behavior and she knows it, I think she would have been gone or moved on to a PA a long time ago.
That is both a blessing and a curse. On the one hand she is still here and at least making a partial effort to move towards reconciling. On the other hand who wants to be with someone that is only there because they are guilted into staying? (Guilted isn't a word? WHO KNEW?)
Anyway, I could have snooped on her desktop PC. Between Google My Activity and Chrome history (which is device agnostic) you can gather quite a bit of intelligence. However, I refrained! In fact, I was never really tempted to do it. A brief thought crossed my mind when I walked by her office, but i dismissed it and that was that. Went back to watching the Olympics.
Small victories. Oh and it has been 24 hours since I initiated a R discussion!
So I asked this in the other thread, but no one responded. If she is open to small shows of affection (hand holding, hugging, kisses goodbye and hi, back rubs, etc) should I be initiating? Or is this counter to detaching?
I ask because one of her complaints over the course of the marriage was lack of non-sexual contact and affection. Like I said, my sitch is a little unique (even though she is a typical WW) and detaching might have the opposite effect that it has on other Ws.
Steve85,
Thanks for popping in on my stitch. All I can say is that our situations and W's seem very similar aside from mine being actively engaged in an affair. My W stated the same about the lack of affection and I felt the same way as you about detaching. So I continued to let her reach out to me and I reciprocated in turn. We even got to the point where she was snuggling up with me in bed. But it meant nothing to her and was only a way to keep me stuck and emotionally attached. Exactly where she wanted me to be. Your W may not be actively engaged in an affair but trust me she is working on it.
I am not telling you what you should do because Lord knows I didn't want to accept this advice either but read my stitch and see how much spinning I have done and have gotten nowhere. You need to take action before she does find someone else otherwise it becomes even more difficult.
How much contact can YOU handle without having expectations of re-living your wedding night ??
Everything is a test Steve...
Sometimes you pass...
Sometimes you fail...
What would you say the difference is ??
Why would it be important to only take things as far as she asks for ??
Mach1, I'm not sure what you're getting at? I'm not expecting sex. But i also don't want her to think I'm back to withholding affection of a way to punish her.
So I asked this in the other thread, but no one responded. If she is open to small shows of affection (hand holding, hugging, kisses goodbye and hi, back rubs, etc) should I be initiating? Or is this counter to detaching?
No you should never initiate those with a WAS. She is NOT open to that, and she will view it as you being weak, pathetic and needy. DON'T DO IT. You want to project a strong alpha image. You want to show that you are confident and do not need her.
I ask because one of her complaints over the course of the marriage was lack of non-sexual contact and affection. Like I said, my sitch is a little unique (even though she is a typical WW) and detaching might have the opposite effect that it has on other Ws.
Oh man if I had a dollar for every time I've heard that on these forums
Your sitch isn't unique at all, and detaching will not have the opposite effect that you think it will. That is just you trying to justify wrong behavior to yourself. DB'ing is counterintuitive, meaning it goes against what you -think- you should do to get her back. Here's the problem, she doesn't love you right now. She doesn't even like you and could even hate you. I know that's tough to wrap your head around but it's reality. Imagine how someone who hates you would respond to you trying to hold hands with them, or kiss them or give them a back rub. They would be REPULSED. That is where she is right now. You try that stuff and it will just push her away and probably even gross her out. So instead you have to pull back and give her space and make yourself the spouse only a fool would leave. She's going to need to see a fantastic, strong, awesome you FROM A DISTANCE before she'll start being attracted to you again. You need to be that good-looking guy across the room at a party that is talking people up and having a great time and just happens to catch her looking your way now and then and you flash her a smile and keep going about your business.
We guys are pretty simple outside of the cave....
Cold beer, meat on the grill, sex , sleep...
We're good.
We recharge our batteries through those things.
Men build intimacy through the physical aspect of sexual activity.
We NEED physical BEFORE we can become emotional...
Our superior counterparts build intimacy emotionally...
They NEED the emotional before they can become physical.
The talking, the hand holding that doesn't lead to anything more...
They NEED to feel close to us in a very different way than we need in order to feel close to them....
They NEED to feel that we want THEM...not just their body.
Sooooo....
Why would it be important to not expect anything more ???
There are no expectations with those acts of affection. Honestly.
In fact, she joked about sex just yesterday, and I just chuckled. And went on my way.
Steve
Do that which works. If it doesn't work cease.
That sounds cold, but if holding hands works do it. If it ceases to work FOR YOU then stop. If you can do this do so without EXPECTATIION either good or bad. Like observing an experiment.
I for one am not anti ML but use protection. Some have ML until they D, others don't. I did ML almost to BD and then I discovered that the G was cheating with multiple OW, it was too risky.
A 180 for you is the opposite of what you did before.
More of the same gives you more of the same.
V
There are no expectations with those acts of affection. Honestly.
It isnt just the expectation of a kiss leading to sex.
Its the expectation or linking of a kiss to "progress" or as a "sign".
If you want to kiss her, then fine. As long as you can consider it as "only a kiss" and not attach any other meaning to it.
Good point. Yeah that is a harder expectation not to have. Of course the day after BD at my family Christmas Eve get together, she sat with me so close, held my hand and had her arm around me the entire day. It was hard not to think she was having second thoughts about wanting out when she was so clingy like that.
WWs are hard to figure.
Theyre only hard to figure if you are applying logic, common sense and clear motives.
If you assume that she is cuckoo bananas in the head, then her actions will make perfect sense.
Hey Steve,
I struggled with how to percieve kisses and ILY's (hence the name of my thread). I finally realized it was all just a game to keep me attached so she could stay in control of the situation. Don't get me wrong, I miss those things a lot, but they don't mean what they used to. Lately I've realized that's exactly what this is to her. A game. Throwing me enough crumbs to keep me on my knees picking them up. Detaching is hard...
mtb detaching is especially hard for me for reasons previously stated. (I was already detached before BD. She shows signs of wanting things to work. Etc.)
So i struggle with detaching vs showing her affection. It's tough to know which direction is the right direction. Some awesome folks here have said to do what works. I'm trying to figure our what that is.
Here's the thing.......ever since you arrived, you have tried to make your W an exception to the usual ones we read about on the board. You keep trying to find a loophole, and if that doesn't work then you try to find fault or contradiction with some part of DBing. It's okay to a point, when you are asking questions and trying to learn everything here. It's a lot to process in a short time. It's not unusal for newcomers, and most people feel that their situation is unique. However, I am beginning to wonder if you are trying to work with DBing, or fighting against it? Perhaps it is a subconscious act of not accepting the reality of your W, and not accepting what you need to do......IDK. It just appears, to me, that you are struggling so much......b/c you are fighting against the information you're receiving.
So i struggle with detaching vs showing her affection. It's tough to know which direction is the right direction. Some awesome folks here have said to do what works. I'm trying to figure our what that is.
Hey, I even have those words in my signature line........but look at the rest of those words. You are struggling with "detaching"
period. All newcomers struggle with detachment, but that doesn't mean there is a flaw in the definition of DB detaching. Look back at that post I copied and pasted on detaching. Tell me exactly which point on the page you struggle with, or that you believe "doesn't work" in your situation, or that seems contrary to what you should be doing. If you can tell me, then we can discuss it more, and if you can't.......then you are merely reacting from your emotions!
Your feelings are in charge, ATM. They are dictating what works..........not for
her, but for YOU! You struggle with this and that b/c you can't get Steve's feelings out of the way and do what needs to be done. And guess what? It's human. We all have those dang emotions that get in the way and try to dictate our actions. You have to recognize your feelings for what they are, and understand that feelings are not going to desire this tough stuff. Your feelings have clearly been in charge of your actions, and until you decide the information we are giving you is correct and that you need to get with the program......you will continue to look for loopholes and get nowhere.
Something happens when a H learns that his W wants out of the M. He immediately feels more in love with her than ever before, and he desperately wants to show her that deep love. He is scared sh'tless that he's going to lose her, and he starts grabbing at the slightest thing that hints of a possibility of pushing her closer to him. The advice he reads on the board sounds completely opposite from what his feelings are screaming he should do. So, he spins & spins.......trying to find the magic "fix" formula. He will try this way for a day and a half, and if she hasn't come around, then he will try something else for a couple of days.....and then he changes to something else. Instead of making small, consistent changes......he is acting like a raving lunatic.
Steve is the one who wants to initiate affection. It's not her. I mean, if she should initiate a hug or kiss, and you want to respond.......then do it. But, you should not be the one to initiate it. In the previous thread, you told us how she has pulled away and stopped saying ILY. So, it makes me have a little doubt about her initiating affection.
You are the one who is worried about what she'll think if you detach, b/c you see detaching as meaning you are physically away........and that's the fartherest thing your feelings want ATM. We get it. It happens to people who discover their S wants out. But now you've got to take control and stop letting your feelings dictate your actions. You are wasting valuable time by looking for loopholes.
How much of that detaching page have you really digested?
Which of the 37 rules do you break the most often? Which can you follow the easiest?
Have you written out your goals about the improvements you want to make in yourself, and in your life? If so, can you share with us?
What are you seriously doing to GAL (besides joining a gym)? How many days next week have you made plans to leave the house to GAL? What about this weekend?
Have you really read
all of Divorce Remedy?
Have you read all of Cadet's homework he assigns newcomers?
I want to encourage you to take a deep breath and get on board with both feet. Stop trying to merge together bits and pieces of various books/forums to fit what your
feelings want to find. It won't work at saving your M. The more sources you seek advice, the more confusing it will become. Every book author, program, church, counselor, organization, friend, and family member, has a viewpoint (usually a different one) in how issues in M should be approached. As someone has already suggested, you need to choose one and get on board all the way. I hope you will choose Divorce Busting, but whatever you choose, just remember one thing. Nobody can give a garantee it will save your M......and that includes Divorce Busting. You could do everything perfectly, but it may not change your W's decision to D.
By the time people find their way to this forum, their M is in serious trouble. Some M's are saved, but most aren't. That is just the stark reality to any material/avice you try to use in saving your troubled MR. I am hoping you will make the wise decision to stick with DB, and really throw yourself into it. I can see the real possibility of you turning things around and not only saving your M.......but having a great one! It will be the hardest thing you have ever done. You have to decide if it's worth it. If it is, then we are here for you.
I've been on the board a long time. I have observed many newcomers and their reactions to their situation.....and to the DB information they receive. The S who wants to save the M, is immediately thrown into a crisis that is more complexed than anything they've experienced. It's complexed b/c of the emotions they experience. I have seen many people leave without ever knowing the ending to their story. I have seen some stick it out, and watched their lives change. Not all M's were saved, but "people" were saved. Steve, I want to see your M saved, but most of all, I want to see you saved and living happily. ((hugs))
sandi2, thank you. Your post is dead on. I admit my emotions are ruling me. They are also hinged on her actions and reactions. I'm also questioning everything she says and does as far as her motivations.
I want to embrace DBing. Badly. But I guess fear is holding me back.
As far as your questions, I will go back and answer them. I'm on my phone right now. I appreciate your help and i am willing to do the work. I just need to clear my head and commit. I know that. I need to get past my feelings and do what works.
sandi2, I will be going back through your post later today. Sorry, just been very busy and haven't had time to get alone time to respond in full.
However, I do have an update. So before my W went to WW mode, she was really into finding us a new house. In fact, her exasperation at her, my daughter and I not being able to agree on houses is what I think partially sent her into WW mode. It was right after she quit spending most of her time looking at houses, and moved on to the singing app, that I started noticing the changes in her.
Anyway, I may have mentioned that I recently got rated top performer at work, and simultaneously got promoted. This resulted in extra bonus money and two big raises back-to-back. I mentioned to my wife that we could now afford some of the houses that were in our "too expensive" category.
The result is that she started looking for houses again. IN fact, the 3 of us went to two open houses yesterday. Obviously I am trying to stay even keeled related to this. And I will be glad to take feedback on what you think this might mean.
I’m having trouble understanding why you would pursue moving into an expensive new house with a person that isn’t committed to your marriage.
BTW, I did the same thing and was separated within 6 months of moving into the new place.
The result is that she started looking for houses again. IN fact, the 3 of us went to two open houses yesterday. Obviously I am trying to stay even keeled related to this. And I will be glad to take feedback on what you think this might mean.
Soooooo after all of us telling you that you need to detach, you tell your W that you're getting a raise and hey, let's go look at new houses! You don't really think that is detachment do you?
Let me tell you a little story about my brother. His W kept telling him that they needed a giant mansion instead of the modest 3/2/2 they were living in (and that was easily affordable). So he finally broke down and they bought this huge house together. 6 months later she BD'd him. She disclosed that she had been in an A for most of their M. He asked her why in the world she wanted to buy the new house if she was planning to D, her answer was that she thought that having the house she wanted might change things, but it didn't. So now he's stuck in that house in a depressed housing market living paycheck-to-paycheck. One kid is grown and moved out and the other is almost there. So it's just him in this gigantic two story house that he can't really afford.
Your W says she wants a new house? You tell her that FIRST the M needs to be repaired and you need assurances she is in it for the long haul, THEN you will consider looking at houses.
Those are the same words I got.
“I thought the new house would change things”
I have a buddy, that I play basketball with, that had the same thing happen to him. Him and his W with their two girls lived in a modest home and they decided to buy their dream home while they were having problems. He told me they did because they thought it would change things as well. They enjoyed 1 summer of it and had to sell it because nothing changed. They are now D'd and neither one of them could afford to keep it. He said they took a financial beating.
Let me add to what AS said from my own experience.
W and I bought our first house - it was absolutely perfect for our family. The school was excellent, close to both of our work, great space and large backyard.
Six months after we bought this 'perfect' house, she BD's me. Told me she's been unhappy for many years. I asked her why would she want to buy the house then - she pushed for it and found this house. She said, she thought things would change. We had to sell the house and break all of the family life apart - so hard on the kids.
So, lesson of the story - don't do anything until the M is repaired and in good state.
I just read on another thread where you ordered NMMNG. That's great! I hope you read it ASAP.
Anyway, I may have mentioned that I recently got rated top performer at work, and simultaneously got promoted. This resulted in extra bonus money and two big raises back-to-back
Congratulations!
The result is that she started looking for houses again. IN fact, the 3 of us went to two open houses yesterday. Obviously I am trying to stay even keeled related to this. And I will be glad to take feedback on what you think this might mean.
It's hard to tell at this point. How much house hunting might distract her from the singing app is anyone's guess. As for giving up on the search for a new house being what tipped the scales toward her WW mode........IDK.
You initially stated there had been intimacy problems for years. She has been on anti-depressant meds for a long time, which hasn't really resolved any problems. She had too much time on her hands and was bored after D went back to school. So then she gets into Internet dating sites and other apps, and she's in an EA. Would a new house be enough distraction to get her away from the apps and the OM? IDK, but I know it would be a very pricey chance. Eventually, the thrill of decorating a new house would wear off.......and then I think the old issues would surface again, b/c a new house is not the source of the M's intimacy problems. If you study why women don't want to be intimate with their H, and you set about in changing that dynamic.......both of you will find happiness. It will be much cheaper than purchasing a new house.
If there is a logical reason the two of you need to sell your current house (for example, if the current house is old and costing a fortune in maintenance) and purchasing a better house is smart business......then go from that angle. But don't go into deeper debt on a chance that this is the winning ticket that will buy happiness for your W.
Take Another Stander's post very seriously.
Yeah, that is my fear too. Obviously part of me saw it as a positive thing. But there is the little warning center in my brain going off too.
I just read on another thread where you ordered NMMNG. That's great! I hope you read it ASAP.
I am about half way through it. While there are things about NGS I am not, I can see some definite tendencies I have.
Unfortunately like most of the books I've been reading, i wish i had read it 2 years ago.
Update: Today is MC day and she is unsure if she is going. I actually would like her not to go since she is committed to working on things. However she wants to leave it open to whether she goes in future weeks. I don't like that.
I think if she skips tonight I'm going to tell her that i will be continuing IC from this point forward.
I think that you are too focused on what SHE is going to do with it...
My vote would be...
Go to MC, use it as a tool for you...
She knows when it is...
She knows where it is...
She knows how to get there...
No pressure, no pursuing, no guilt trips...
If she shows ?
Then great..
If not ??
Then maybe have that talk that we discussed on your last thread...
Also...
Detaching...
For me, detaching isn't so much a conscious decision and you are done...
It is a series of smaller decisions that you can make daily.
It ties into the rules of DBing.
GAL, acting as if, no relationship talks...
What you will look back and realize is, that it wasn't a singular decision that you made, it became more of a way of just living your life, while giving space and time to your spouse.
Soooo...
One thing today Steve....just for you...
Find one thing to smile about...
One thing to talk about other than your situation...
One thing to look forward to , for tomorrow
Don't worry about whatever else is going on with your marriage.
It will still be there...
???
Thanks Mach1.Essentially that is how I am viewing MC.
As far as your 2nd post, very good advice. I appreciate the perspective.
I will work on the smile, talk and look forward to. I get the principle you're driving at here. I will start putting that together every morning before leaving for work.
So one thing I'm struggling with related to detaching is temperature taking. After my last temperature taking about a week ago, I've struggled with not following up. I haven't done it but the urge is there.
Obviously, i want to latch onto her positive comments made during that last temp taking. But as mach reminded me i can't trust anything she is telling me anyway.
So i come here to vent about this in any effort to not actually do it.
As Mach pointed out, detachment is in steps. I think I've taken a baby step here.
So one thing I'm struggling with related to detaching is temperature taking. After my last temperature taking about a week ago, I've struggled with not following up. I haven't done it but the urge is there.
Do you put your clothes in the washer and watch them go around ??
Or do you put them in, and find something else to focus on, until the timer goes off ???
So one thing I'm struggling with related to detaching is temperature taking. After my last temperature taking about a week ago, I've struggled with not following up. I haven't done it but the urge is there.
Do you put your clothes in the washer and watch them go around ??
Or do you put them in, and find something else to focus on, until the timer goes off ???
Focus on other things. point taken
More of a....
Have Faith in the process...
Don't sidestep the process...
Have Faith that you can follow the process...
And enact the process..
As Sandi said to you the other day...
Nothing personal...
But your case isn't unusual..
So stop looking for the loophole in the process...
Sooo.....do you trust the washer ???
My 10 cents......if you don't snoop, if you don't ask R questions, if you don't initiate conversation, if you don't respond to text messages that are not a question, if you stop trying to mind read, if you don't tell her what your doing or where you are going, if you stop asking who, what, where, when, why questions you will start to detach. Time, space and distance.
IMO the actions you take will help with detaching but those actions don't mean your detached. Being detached is a state of mind.
I am 8 months in and am still probably not 100% detached.
That ^^^^^ is pretty good use of a dime...
Detachment isn't in 'steps'. It's like having a baby, you are either pregnant or you are not. You can't be sort of pregnant.
You can't be sort of detached.
It's a state of mind and body in which you are fine with the outcome. You are fine with R, you are fine without.
Temperature taking has nothing to do with detachment. Temperature taking is to know if you are still plan B. Nothing more nor less than that.
Imagine you are on water skis following a mad women in a power boat. First heading out to sea, then heading for the rocks, going fast behind the power boat. Following whatever madness is going on.
Detachment is standing on the shore, some say it's the lighthouse. It is doing what is right for you irrespective of the outcome. It is stopping the madness of following crazy loco.
It is strong.
It isn't letting go or moving on. Detaching is observing, you can still stand as long as you want to do so. You stand for R, healthy R which is good for YOU. Detaching is observer mode which puts you in the place which is good for you. The standing place is a place where whatever is, is OK as long as it is good for YOU. It is not ceasing to react, nor being unfriendly nor a place of revenge nor of control and manipulation. From that place you can do that which is good for you. And W temperature checking is just observed by you.
So what is letting go? Letting go is simply saying I no longer want my boundaries breached. It isn't there is no chance of R. It is this is my line in the stand, no more acquiesce. I am someone only a fool would leave. I am standing but actually these are my boundaries.
What is moving on? It is saying I am done standing, I am LRT.
What is done and over.........
I always say it is the LBS that decides done and over, at that point there is no point in temp checking. The LBS is plan A in their own life.
That is the way I see it.
V
Thank you everyone. This is all good stuff.
Mach I'm trying to trust the washer.
Joseph, thank you. I'm striving for that.
V, thanks. I agree with much of what you said. Detaching is hard. Especially for those of us that what to stay in those skies for dear life.
So one thing I'm struggling with related to detaching is temperature taking. After my last temperature taking about a week ago, I've struggled with not following up. I haven't done it but the urge is there.
You've gotten some really great feedback from Mach1, Joseph9 and Vanilla. I'm just going to add that detachment takes a whole lotta time. We all WANT to be detached ASAP, I mean BD is miserable enough, then we've got to find out that things just aren't going to be "fixed" in a couple of days or a week, and then it really sinks in that it's going to be months or even years???? Please, detach me right now! Where's the detachment button, because I'm pressing that bad boy! Unfortunately there's no quick fix to the M and no quick detachment either. It takes time. Eventually you'll convince yourself that you're detached, you'll say "I've finally done it, I'm detached!" But no, not yet. It's when you don't think about being detached anymore- you'll just be spending time with your kids, hanging out with friends, working out, dealing with work stuff, and oh yeah your W is in the mix somewhere. THAT is detachment. So back to your original quote:
So one thing I'm struggling with related to detaching is temperature taking
There simply is no temperature taking in detachment. If you are temp checking, or thinking about temp checking, or trying to convince yourself not to temp check, or temp checking and telling yourself you have to because your sitch is different, any of those are NOT detachment. Detachment is when you don't temp check because you just don't care anymore. Her life is hers and yours is yours.
From what I have observed on the board, whenever the term "temperature checking" is used, it is referring to the WS checking the LBS emotional response to determine if they are still Plan B. This usually comes through some form of manipulation by the WS.
Not that I have read every post on the board, but it is rare to see anyone refer to the LBS as making the temp checking. As Another Stander pointed out, it is not an action the LBS should even consider. Temp checks by a LBS causes them to appear as having low self-confidence. Since healthy self-confidence ranks high on the list of most attractive traits in men and women.......it only makes good sense that the LBS should not succumb to checking the emotional pulse of the one who wants to end the M.
When temp checks come from the WS, they are a form of manipulation.
When temp checks come from the LBS, they are a form of pursuit.
I believe temperature taking from the LBS perspective is trying to gauge where the relationship stands. I have done this multiple times since my BD.
The last time was last Wednesday morning, as documented in my last thread. I even did it in a manipulative way by telling my wife that I noticed when she talked it about staying it was in terms of level of sadness, and leaving was discussed in terms of level of excitement. (Her response was that as we had frivolous fun in our MR, she felt less sadness in staying, and less excitement in leaving.
See what I did there? I got a temperature check without coming out and saying "where does our MR stand?" Terrible. Awful. Not something I am proud of.
So yes, since then I've been compelled at times to say "hey, how are we doing?" Usually not in those terms though. Usually in a sneaky, gauging way.
Obviously this is pursuit. "HEY! How am I doing in getting you to want to stay?" It is bad, and not helpful for detachment. And should be avoided at all costs.
So I am working on it. When I get the urge I try to distract myself. I try to remind myself that I can't believe what she tells anyway. Etc.
Humph
Temp checking only works at the point of checking. It won't hold at any other point.
The LBS checks if the WS ever thinks of them as Plan A. The WS checks if the LBS is there as Plan B.
Meaningless.
It's like boiling a kettle in a snow storm and measuring with a broken thermometer. What is the temperature and will it be that next week, month or year.
Give it up already.
False readings nothing manipulative. Just garbage.
V
Why is this stuff so difficult? I was really fighting the urge to start a R talk this morning. We were having a good morning too. But why the urge to discuss the MR comes on so strong or what triggers it i don't understand.
But why the urge to discuss the MR comes on so strong or what triggers it i don't understand.
My guess?
Because you arent filling your mind with other things.
Maybe that's true. I guess I'm not sure how to not have it always at the back of my mind. i try to distract myself with various activities. But the undertow of this thing is always there.
Why is this stuff so difficult? I was really fighting the urge to start a R talk this morning. We were having a good morning too. But why the urge to discuss the MR comes on so strong or what triggers it i don't understand.
It's human nature. DB'ing is hard because it is counter-intuitive- it goes against human nature. Every fiber of your being is telling you that to get her back you need to pursue. IE, lavish her with love, attention and gifts, tell her you love her and will never let her go. And that stuff works in a normal R where you've had a fight and need to make up. But dealing with a WAS is another thing entirely. A switch has flipped in them and they don't want to be married anymore. Usually the only reason they are hanging around at all is because of the kids, otherwise most of them would dust off just after BD. There is no "making up" with a WAS. You've got to let her go her way while you work on you. At some point down the road she may get to the point of starting a NEW relationship with you, but until then you've got to put your focus on you and your D.
So how do you DB when your body and brain tell you not to, well you just accept that it's not linear. I don't think anyone here did it without a blackslide here and there, usually a temp check. But all a temp check ever does is confirm that yes, the WAS is still done with the M. Every.... freakin.... time. So whenever you get the urge to temp check just ask yourself, how did the last dozen temp checks go? Because yeah, that's how it will go again. So ask yourself if you really want to kep subjecting yourself to that. It's an emotional beating, and you'll get tired of it eventually and quit doing it.
But why the urge to discuss the MR comes on so strong or what triggers it i don't understand.
It's called the "illusion of action". You feel you have to do something, prove yourself, convince her to see things your way.
It's based on your fear of losing her. You are hoping that she says something that gives you hope which will temporarily stop the pain. The relationship talk rarely ever goes the way you want it to and then you just feel more pain. Then you push and pursue more to try to stop the pain. It's a fuched up cycle.
So my library has the DR book. I'm going to stop by and pick it up tonight. Then try to hide it. That will be a trick. Cant figure out how to stealthily get DB.
sandi, i am almost through the No More Mr Nice Guy book. I'm taking it that the point for us LBSs is to be ready to pull the plug? Did I misread that?
Interesting piece of information. I'm doing a leadership training at work related to my promotion. They have is the TKI conflict management assessment. I'm at 93% compete and 6% avoiding.
In short i tend to confront conflict head on. This was eye opeing in relation to DBing.
It's not I my nature to let conflict linger without a resolution. DBing is all Abbott leaving the conflict alone and moving on.
So this is helpful in terms of i am struggling. And maybe this info can lead me to start to change.
That's not how I see NMMNG.
That book is about how there is no nice guy. The behaviour of the nice guy isn't nice at all.
It's unpleasant, controlling, indirect and sneaky. Nice guy is blaming, has rules which he changes, has little connection, is entitled and ignores his other half and kids. Generally thinks that if he is the bread winner it's enough.
Mr Nice Guy has a snaking, veneer of masculinity.
So who is the opposite of this?
A man who is direct, knows what he wants, discusses things with his other half as an equal, dates his wife, treats her with respect and love. Enjoys being a dad, has great boundaries, tackles issues directly as they arise. Is not as Al Turtle describes a passive master. This man is masculine and unafraid to love and be tender, he keeps his rage under control, works to resolve problems, is happy to share life chores amicably. He is a man who can look after himself if needs must and his children. He has balance in his life, hobbies, friends and family. He is not a nice guy but a man only a fool would leave.
That's my take on it.
V
Interesting piece of information. I'm doing a leadership training at work related to my promotion. They have is the TKI conflict management assessment. I'm at 93% compete and 6% avoiding.
In short i tend to confront conflict head on. This was eye opeing in relation to DBing.
That's the point isn't it? Conflict? Seeing an R and a disagreement as conflict?
It's not I my nature to let conflict linger without a resolution. DBing is all Abbott leaving the conflict alone and moving on.
That isn't DB at all. It isn't about avoiding conflict or ignoring it. It is how you deal with disagreement and how you argue. Do you blame, do you threaten, are you intimidating, do you accept the other has a right to their view even if different? What do you do?
Have you heard of the man who only has a hammer? He sees every problem as a nail. So beware the man who has only has a screw driver!
So this is helpful in terms of i am struggling.
not surprised if every disagreement or opposite view is "conflict" to be tackled with aggression.
And maybe this info can lead me to start to change.
I think you mean shift. There is nothing wrong with tackling issues directly, see my previous post. It is how you do it. And recognising disagreement is not conflict.
Respecting and validating others in the process. Whereas NMMNG is passive aggressive, Mr conflict is just plain nasty aggressive if everything is conflict.
Just saying
V
Interesting piece of information. I'm doing a leadership training at work related to my promotion. They have is the TKI conflict management assessment. I'm at 93% compete and 6% avoiding.
In short i tend to confront conflict head on. This was eye opeing in relation to DBing.
That's the point isn't it? Conflict? Seeing an R and a disagreement as conflict?
It's not I my nature to let conflict linger without a resolution. DBing is all Abbott leaving the conflict alone and moving on.
That isn't DB at all. It isn't about avoiding conflict or ignoring it. It is how you deal with disagreement and how you argue. Do you blame, do you threaten, are you intimidating, do you accept the other has a right to their view even if different? What do you do?
Have you heard of the man who only has a hammer? He sees every problem as a nail. So beware the man who has only has a screw driver!
So this is helpful in terms of i am struggling.
not surprised if every disagreement or opposite view is "conflict" to be tackled with aggression.
And maybe this info can lead me to start to change.
I think you mean shift. There is nothing wrong with tackling issues directly, see my previous post. It is how you do it. And recognising disagreement is not conflict.
Respecting and validating others in the process. Whereas NMMNG is passive aggressive, Mr conflict is just plain nasty aggressive if everything is conflict.
Just saying
V
^^^^ SHE NAILED IT!^^^^^
DB is not at all about avoiding conflict. It's how you handle it.
I guess i can see that. But it is just so hard not to be actively working toward a solution. A resolution. Anything.
I remember reading that most people feel that a spouse announcing they want out and then lingering is worse than a spouse announcing they are leaving and walking out. I tend to agree.
I just so hate limbo.
I guess i can see that. But it is just so hard not to be actively working toward a solution. A resolution. Anything.
I remember reading that most people feel that a spouse announcing they want out and then lingering is worse than a spouse announcing they are leaving and walking out. I tend to agree.
I just so hate limbo.
And who says you can't be working to a solution? Goals are key.
And limbo is the gift of time.
You can learn patience.
V
Thank you Vanilla, I needed to hear that.
Another question. My wife keeps joking about sex. In a very flirtatious way.
She's already told me she is not longer sexually attracted to me.
So is this joking about sex to torture me?
I am so confused.
That is temp checking. Of the worst kind. To show to herself she has control.
And believe nothing she says, even about not being attracted to you. You made a D14 with her so it's clearly untrue.
You are working on you aren't you?
Show yourself that you are an attractive man, and what she is saying is bs. It is your confidence in you that makes you sexy.
So the answer is "hey, yes I am worth an R and if you aren't interested in due course my wonderful new R awaits. For I am a man only a fool would leave, and you are very stupid".
V
Thanks V. I've actually handled them pretty well. I either shrug or give them a polite chuckle and change the subject.
Also last day or so I've been having a ton of anxiety. I've been having urges to discuss things with her. But I've found ways to deal. One was talking to a good friend that lives several states away. He's very pro marriage is helping coach me through this stuff.
I also have been doing breathing exercises ' praying, and remembering words of advice from this board.
Can't seem to shake this anxiety though. Had a mild panic attack at 4am this mooring.
Steve,
Can you give an example of what she is saying flirtatiously?
Things like this. I'll say "I have a question." She'll say "Oh, you want sex?"
Or last week our bedroom door, that locks, was working right and if you latched it sometimes it wouldn't open. So I said "We are going to have to not latch our door until I can fix it." And she said: "Oh, that means we can't have sex until its fixed!"
A few days ago I said something about needing to do something, and she said "Oh is that what you are referring to sex as now?"
There are more, they are wide and varied. I haven't been taking notes since I mostly just blow them off. But averages about 1 a day, some days none but other days multiple.
How important is it that she not know I am reading the DR book? I didn't make it to the library last night but I am going straight there after work today. However, I do not see how I can read this book without her knowing. I guess I could read it in the truck at lunch time. But I usually read much more voraciously than that. I read a book recently In about 4 days. I think DR would take me less than a week if I read like I normally do. Reading it only at lunch will take me a lot longer especially since I WFH on Fridays.
How important is it that she not know I am reading the DR book?
I would say that there are two major reasons that you dont want to share it with her.
1) If shes already pushing to get out of the relationship, then this will feel like manipulation and will only make he resist harder. She is saying that she wants out of the relationship and youre reading books on how to save the relationship...
2) Its not much of a leap to suggest that she would come running right here if she is at all curious.
Can't seem to shake this anxiety though. Had a mild panic attack at 4am this mooring.
What makes you anxious?
What is the worst case scenario you can imagine?
Things like this. I'll say "I have a question." She'll say "Oh, you want sex?"
Or last week our bedroom door, that locks, was working right and if you latched it sometimes it wouldn't open. So I said "We are going to have to not latch our door until I can fix it." And she said: "Oh, that means we can't have sex until its fixed!"
A few days ago I said something about needing to do something, and she said "Oh is that what you are referring to sex as now?"
There are more, they are wide and varied. I haven't been taking notes since I mostly just blow them off. But averages about 1 a day, some days none but other days multiple.
To me, it seems like she is baiting you with these. Trying to get you to react...
How would you have handled these statements pre-bomb ??
Would she have been irritated with how you handled them pre-bomb ???
Remember when I said that everything is a test ??
I think that the answer lies somewhere around your answers to the above questions and where you are now....
I would say that she is seeing things a little different within you recently.
And she is maybe trying to see that, since the band broke up, you are taking your solo act on the road... : )
Seriously though...
I would say that some of it is a test...
Some of it is her being inquisitive...
Some of it is her actually showing glimpses of herself...
I wouldn't bring too many ants to that picnic though.
Steve focuses on Steve....
And IF she decides to come around, you won't have to guess or look for any signs
Think about those questions though....
I'm taking it that the point for us LBSs is to be ready to pull the plug?
Steve, I didn't want you to read it as way to lean some new strategy in your M. That should not be the goal or purpose behind it. I had hoped you could determine if you had the same traits as the book describes, b/c if you do.....then it affects all your relationships in life (personal, impersonal, business, etc.). Of course, it will affect your most intimate relationship the most.
It is not to share with your W. At least, not while going through this crisis. It is strictly for you. It is to see yourself and why/how you operate in relationships the way you do. Not only to help you see, but hopefully, you would know what to change........b/c if you continue to repeat what isn't working in your relationships, your life won't change for the better.
How important is it that she not know I am reading the DR book?
It's very important. Of course you can read the DR, or any other book without her seeing you. Come on.....that's just an excuse. Why would you need to pull it out in fron of her to read it? Leave the house, or go home later after work in order to have reading time. She doesn't have to know what you are doing. It doesn't hurt to be a little mysterious!
When you have a spouse who is not genuinely interested in having a better MR, she will accuse you of just trying to follow something in a book. It won't impress a WW. Which in reality, that is what you need to do, but she will twist it around to make you look as though your actions are just some type of ploy to get her to stay. Some have compared it to a football play book. You don't show the other team your play book. Make sense?
You can make it happen, but you've got to do the work!
Things like this. I'll say "I have a question." She'll say "Oh, you want sex?"
Or last week our bedroom door, that locks, was working right and if you latched it sometimes it wouldn't open. So I said "We are going to have to not latch our door until I can fix it." And she said: "Oh, that means we can't have sex until its fixed!"
A few days ago I said something about needing to do something, and she said "Oh is that what you are referring to sex as now?"
There are more, they are wide and varied. I haven't been taking notes since I mostly just blow them off. But averages about 1 a day, some days none but other days multiple.
Very interesting. Sounds like she wants to put sex back on the menu, which I might add is not unusual for a WAS to do. It doesn't mean she wants to recon, but she may very well miss the sex. Incidentally if the opportunity presents itself Michele's take on it in DR is it is OK to keep having sex with a WAS as long as you can do it without expectations. IE, if it messes with you mentally then maybe refrain, but if you can handle it mentally then go for it. If she keeps dropping these hints then next time I would just come out and ask "you sure have been hinting at sex a lot, is that something you're interested in resuming?" If she says no then just shrug your shoulders and continue what you were doing, don't make a big deal out of it one way or the other.
How important is it that she not know I am reading the DR book? I didn't make it to the library last night but I am going straight there after work today. However, I do not see how I can read this book without her knowing. I guess I could read it in the truck at lunch time. But I usually read much more voraciously than that. I read a book recently In about 4 days. I think DR would take me less than a week if I read like I normally do. Reading it only at lunch will take me a lot longer especially since I WFH on Fridays.
You can actually read through it pretty quickly, but it's more helpful to read it many times as you'll absorb new info each time. You're supposed to be GAL'ing anyway, so maybe keep it hidden in your truck go hang out at a park and read? Or go to a coffee shop or something? You should be trying to spend some time (outside of work) away from your W.
To me, it seems like she is baiting you with these. Trying to get you to react...
How would you have handled these statements pre-bomb ??
Would she have been irritated with how you handled them pre-bomb ???
Prebomb I would have made comments about "yeah right" or "why are you teasing me?" or "I would have jokingly went along with it." (For reference we had sex twice last year prebomb, the last time being last summer. We did have sex a few weeks ago post bomb.)
Prebomb she would not have made those comments. I can't really pinpoint when she quit ever joking about sex, but it was at least months ago. And even then the comments were more mocking (like using a goofy voice for me saying things like "yeah, i want sex!"). Not flirtatious at all. These are more flirtatious. I think you are right on the money about her trying to get a reaction, testing me to see if my reaction has changed.
I'm taking it that the point for us LBSs is to be ready to pull the plug?
Steve, I didn't want you to read it as way to lean some new strategy in your M. That should not be the goal or purpose behind it. I had hoped you could determine if you had the same traits as the book describes, b/c if you do.....then it affects all your relationships in life (personal, impersonal, business, etc.). Of course, it will affect your most intimate relationship the most.
It is not to share with your W. At least, not while going through this crisis. It is strictly for you. It is to see yourself and why/how you operate in relationships the way you do. Not only to help you see, but hopefully, you would know what to change........b/c if you continue to repeat what isn't working in your relationships, your life won't change for the better.
How important is it that she not know I am reading the DR book?
It's very important. Of course you can read the DR, or any other book without her seeing you. Come on.....that's just an excuse. Why would you need to pull it out in fron of her to read it? Leave the house, or go home later after work in order to have reading time. She doesn't have to know what you are doing. It doesn't hurt to be a little mysterious!
When you have a spouse who is not genuinely interested in having a better MR, she will accuse you of just trying to follow something in a book. It won't impress a WW. Which in reality, that is what you need to do, but she will twist it around to make you look as though your actions are just some type of ploy to get her to stay. Some have compared it to a football play book. You don't show the other team your play book. Make sense?
You can make it happen, but you've got to do the work!
I understand about the nice guy book. But it did seem to me the point from my standpoint is to stand up for myself and not take any crap. Which would mean being able to walk away instead of being a doormat.
The book was good. Like I said before I am not a textbook nice guy, but I did have a tendency to sometimes do things for her thinking it would get me sex. And I can be pretty passive-aggressive at times.
I will figure out how to read the DR book without her knowing. Like I said I will not be able to read it as quickly that way though.
Prebomb I would have made comments about "yeah right" or "why are you teasing me?" or "I would have jokingly went along with it." (For reference we had sex twice last year prebomb, the last time being last summer. We did have sex a few weeks ago post bomb.)
Prebomb she would not have made those comments. I can't really pinpoint when she quit ever joking about sex, but it was at least months ago. And even then the comments were more mocking (like using a goofy voice for me saying things like "yeah, i want sex!"). Not flirtatious at all. These are more flirtatious. I think you are right on the money about her trying to get a reaction, testing me to see if my reaction has changed.
I'm not saying that she is or isn't....
She
could be...
She also
could be saying these things and watching for your reaction..
She
could be testing to see if your reaction is different than before..
She
could be a progesterone enraged addict right now...
She
could be picking up radio free Europe in her braces....
Many reasons on why, if , what ,when, where or how...
Thing is ??
How YOU react to it, or don't react to it...
Are you reacting the same ?
Different ???
How sharp are your words ???
Are you still reacting with passive aggressiveness when you don't get your way ???
Hey...
If you were focused on that ^^^^ you would hardly notice these tests...
The only thing I will add to Another Stander's advice about sexual contact with her...
Unless you are 100% sure that she hasn't been with another person...
Then please protect yourself..
I am not reacting. That's the thing. I used to prebomb.
I'm 99.75% sure she has not been with anyone.
DR is checked out at the library and almost a month overdue. ☹
You could not stay away from her long enough to read that little book in a month's time?
I would just say "ok get your knickers off"
V
I would just say "ok get your knickers off"
V
That seems like pursuing.
You could not stay away from her long enough to read that little book in a month's time?
OH I definitely could knock it out in a month.
Something else I've been meaning to bring up. Our counselor had a really good observation in our last session. (Remember we didn't go to our session this past week.)
Anyway, she mentioned that my W had been a stay at home mom for 13 years when she discovered this karaoke app. The counselor talked about how "a whole new world" had opened up to my W and that it was fun and exciting after years of serving others and losing her identity. (The counselor worded this much better than I just did.)
Anyway, it did get me thinking that my wife had become home bound. She really only went out when she took our D to school and picked her up from school. Occasionally when I was up at the hunting property she and my D would go out to eat.
My W had really thrown herself into house hunting, and was really big into the 2016 election as well. Much more political than she'd ever been (I had always been the political one).
So it did appear that she was grasping for something. And when it finally came along in the form of this singing app, she was willing to drop all else to fully embrace it. That was when she started to withdraw. Started to lose weight. Started caring about her appearance again after years of not caring about it. Really started to distance herself emotionally.
Her Love Language is words of affirmation so she is especially susceptible to the compliments she gets for her singing.
Couple this with my anger, resentment and constantly making derogatory statements and it was the perfect storm.
So anyway, I thought the insight that the counselor articulated really hit it on the head. And it took a long time for us to get to BD, I need to remember that it's only been 2 1/2 months since. You can't turn around something that quickly that took so long to get into. So thank you for the poster above that reminded me that limbo is the gift of time.
I am not reacting. That's the thing. I used to prebomb.
So you removed that button for her, yet she keeps pushing it...
What would YOU think could cause that ??
HOW did you react pre-bomb ???
What part of how you reacted, do you not like about yourself ???
Free pass moment....
There is always a way if you really want it...
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2121882#Post2121882This will get you started.
And it isn't a race to see how fast you can read it...
Take your time and absorb it
Mach1 , thank you! I will go back and read the first chapters. I have read them before, as recently as 2 months ago. But I will read them again.
I've also read a lot of MWD's articles and also have watched a lot of her videos.
I would just say "ok get your knickers off"
V
That seems like pursuing.
Not if she initiates! So it's calling the bluff.
V
Speaking of tests.
One of the things we implemented was her taking back over the grocery shopping. I had taken it on because before several raises/promotions we were on a budget. She admits that she has a tough time staying within budget and is very much an impulse shopper.
So today she went grocery shopping for the second time. Normally when I grocery shop, even when we need some big ticket items like dog food, laundry detergent, etc, I will spend about $150. In fact we budget about $600/month for groceries and other household items.
Her bill today was $350. When she told me I didn't say a word. I just said, "oh okay". I believe this was a test to see if I would react the way I would of prebomb. First of all, when she went to the store I would have told her "please be reasonable". She hated that. I said nothing before hand.
Then when she said $350 I would have said "HON! That is way too much!" But I didn't say a word. She even started by saying "I spent way too much! I spent $520." I never batted an eye. Then said "No $350." And just shrugged and went back to what I was doing.
I think this was clearly a test to see if the changes I've implemented in myself are for real. She knows that overspending was a huge hot button issue before.
I think this was clearly a test to see if the changes I've implemented in myself are for real. She knows that overspending was a huge hot button issue before.
Your mind reading....she could have done it to just piss you off.
Either way...good job on not taking the bait.
I think this was clearly a test to see if the changes I've implemented in myself are for real. She knows that overspending was a huge hot button issue before.
Your mind reading....she could have done it to just piss you off.
Either way...good job on not taking the bait.
Thanks. I agree I shouldn't be mind reading. But to me it was clearly a test.
Probably.....but you don't know her intentions and reasons why for doing it.
If you agree a budget, then have a purse with 600 cash.
When it's spent for the month, it's spent.
V
One of the things we implemented was her taking back over the grocery shopping
By saying, "We".......are you referring to the counselor?
I fail to see how this will benefit the MR, if your W cannot control her spending. It is a fast way to add a new problem on top of your current one. Why not go together to buy groceries? It would get her out of the house, and be easier on the wallet.
One of the things we implemented was her taking back over the grocery shopping
By saying, "We".......are you referring to the counselor?
I fail to see how this will benefit the MR, if your W cannot control her spending. It is a fast way to add a new problem on top of your current one. Why not go together to buy groceries? It would get her out of the house, and be easier on the wallet.
We as in her and I. The MC wasn't involved. Money really isn't d's an issue anymore.
I would just say "ok get your knickers off"
V
That seems like pursuing.
Not if she initiates! So it's calling the bluff.
V
Took your advice. She joked about it yesterday because our D was staying the night at a friend's house. I said "okay, tonight then! "
We went to bed about 10pm after she got a shower. I had showered earlier. We were up until 1am. It was like when we were dating. It was the best in a very very long time. She was so into it and didn't want to stop.
So apparently she was not testing. She was just really horny.
Obviously I'm trying not to read too much into it. I'm trying to stay cool and detached. But the fact she even followed through was a shock. I expected an excuse. I expected her to show she didn't want to but was going to begrudgingly. None of that. The only thing that wasn't present was kissing. But since the last time when she requested no kissing. I figured I'd let her initiate that if she wanted. She didn't but that is fine.
Things seem back to normal between us but much better since before BD. She is talking about things. She has continued with the sexual joking even after Saturday night. We flirt, joke, have intellectual conversations, and snuggle in bed.
I know I'm supposed to be detaching but she seems to be coming toward me. I am taking all of this with a huge grain of salt. I'm still calm, cool, and attentive. I'm still not saying I love you until she does first (though I occasionally slip on that one).
I know I need to see consistent behavior overtime but could all this be for real?
I would say keep doing what you are doing as it seems to be having the desired effects. I would not stop with your recent behaviors/GAL/etc.
The only thing that wasn't present was kissing.
Of course she was hot to trot! An A jump starts her sexual desire.
IMHO, if the W is not kissing her H, it is not a good sign that she is in to him. But she can have sex with him and fantasize about doing it with the OM.
IDK, if it's just a woman thing.........but, intimate kissing is a very good measuring unit as to how she feels about her H. When a woman really wants to make love with her H, she'll want to kiss him. There is a difference in making love and just having sex.
Thanks Sandi. I was thinking the same thing. So any advice on how to proceed?
Ok. I've been doing that since BD.
I'm guessing I shouldn't assume that she's still looking for a plan A?
Wife's birthday is coming up in 10 days. The big 5-0. And she is not handling well.
Wants no party. No gifts. No acknowledgement that it is occurring. Even said she might go away for a few days to deal with it herself. I think she was feeling me out on that last one.
So any advice on how to proceed? What should I do? D is pushing for a party but I want to respect W's wishes on that. I feel like if we can get past her birthday then things will smooth out. I think a lot of her issues has been turning 50 and wanting to still be sexy, wanted, sexual, attractive, etc.
So I've been pretty emotionally stable lately. After being with her a lot over the weekend, abd the three hour sex session Saturday night, I had a bit of separation anxiety yesterday going to work. But i didn't text her or call her.
But it ood feeling better emotionally.
Yes, she is still looking at her Plan A.
You won't score any brownie points throwing her a BD party, especially since she has said she did not want one. If she wants to mourn the fact she got to live 50......then let her, by all means.
I would talk to D14 about it, and see if she wants to take her mom out to eat. Then you could take her to one of those places where the waiters all gather around your table and sing Happy Birthday!
If there is anyone there that knows her.......I'm sure they won't look to see who has a BD.
Steve, I'm sorry I missed most of your thread but I'm so happy to hear you and your wife are re-connecting. That's so great. I hope everything falls into place for both of you. That's like a big dream for many of us to have a chance to be with our spouse again.
Yes, she is still looking at her Plan A.
You won't score any brownie points throwing her a BD party, especially since she has said she did not want one. If she wants to mourn the fact she got to live 50......then let her, by all means.
I would talk to D14 about it, and see if she wants to take her mom out to eat. Then you could take her to one of those places where the waiters all gather around your table and sing Happy Birthday!
If there is anyone there that knows her.......I'm sure they won't look to see who has a BD.
Thanks Sandi. she's stated she doesn't even want to go out. I offered to take her and D to Ruth's Chris since D has never been. She said no i don't ever want that. So it looks like I'll just pick up pizza and an ice cream cake. She lobes ice cream.
Steve, I'm sorry I missed most of your thread but I'm so happy to hear you and your wife are re-connecting. That's so great. I hope everything falls into place for both of you. That's like a big dream for many of us to have a chance to be with our spouse again.
Thanks Nicole. I'm optimistically skeptical at this point.
Steve,
sorry you are here, but it's a good place to be for crummy reasons.
You posted a few things that confuse or concern me. You mention the EAs as if they are the big deal breakers in the marriage (I'm not minimizing them. That would hurt any spouse).
But even though you concede that there were issues before then, you were apparently content to ignore them. Can you explain?
For instance, you wrote that you had not had sex but a few times the previous year.
That's a red flag with a blinking strobe light to me. Why was that not addressed?
You also wrote the following:
Couple this with my anger, resentment and constantly making derogatory statements and it was the perfect storm.
What are you doing about these^^^ ? Can you imagine any woman, regardless of her age or medication, just taking this type of behavior? is it possible that part of the reason she was depressed was the way you treated her?
What if the medications helped keep her in the marriage? (I'm asking).
Finally, I'm not clear about your threat that she has to shape up or you'll file for divorce and you give an actual date. Aside from the vagueness of what it is you feel she must do for you to not file...
I have never seen that work and frankly, given the issues of your own which you need to own, couldn't she make the same threat?
in fact SHE did say she wanted out of the marriage. Then you came here to save the marriage, not her. But you are also trying to hold the divorce sword of Damocles over her head. I worry that you are deflecting from your own work and staring at hers. A lot. That you are in a power struggle with her of who can walk out first or fastest and who will "win", etc.
Maybe if you stay in your sandbox and don't worry about what she's doing in her sandbox, you would have more success.
There are a lot of issues that went into her reaching out to other men, and they are not small issues.
What do you think you can do in your sandbox, without checking on hers?
Steve,
sorry you are here, but it's a good place to be for crummy reasons.
You posted a few things that confuse or concern me. You mention the EAs as if they are the big deal breakers in the marriage (I'm not minimizing them. That would hurt any spouse).
But even though you concede that there were issues before then, you were apparently content to ignore them. Can you explain?
For instance, you wrote that you had not had sex but a few times the previous year.
That's a red flag with a blinking strobe light to me. Why was that not addressed?
You also wrote the following:
Couple this with my anger, resentment and constantly making derogatory statements and it was the perfect storm.
What are you doing about these^^^ ? Can you imagine any woman, regardless of her age or medication, just taking this type of behavior? is it possible that part of the reason she was depressed was the way you treated her?
What if the medications helped keep her in the marriage? (I'm asking).
Finally, I'm not clear about your threat that she has to shape up or you'll file for divorce and you give an actual date. Aside from the vagueness of what it is you feel she must do for you to not file...
I have never seen that work and frankly, given the issues of your own which you need to own, couldn't she make the same threat?
in fact SHE did say she wanted out of the marriage. Then you came here to save the marriage, not her. But you are also trying to hold the divorce sword of Damocles over her head. I worry that you are deflecting from your own work and staring at hers. A lot. That you are in a power struggle with her of who can walk out first or fastest and who will "win", etc.
Maybe if you stay in your sandbox and don't worry about what she's doing in her sandbox, you would have more success.
There are a lot of issues that went into her reaching out to other men, and they are not small issues.
What do you think you can do in your sandbox, without checking on hers?
Thank you for the thoughtful and thought-provoking post.
But even though you concede that there were issues before then, you were apparently content to ignore them. Can you explain? I'd suggest you go back and read my original thread. It gives more of the details. But in short, WE (her and I) ignored them for largely the reasons so many spouses do. We have had some really good times, where our marriage has been great, but then long periods of being as disconnected as two married people can be.
Mostly it was not prioritizing the other person's needs properly on both of our parts. Not putting in the work necessary so make a marriage work. Until the most recent events in December and the limbo that has resulted in the last 2 1/2 months.
For instance, you wrote that you had not had sex but a few times the previous year.
That's a red flag with a blinking strobe light to me. Why was that not addressed?Again, the sexual issues in our marriage started from pretty much the moment we walked down the aisle. We tried to deal with it in various ways, none of them were very good or healthy. But this is the basis of my resentment, anger, complaining and cutting remarks.
I need to let you know that my criticism was never about her looks or anything like that. It was about how bad of a house keeper she was, or that she hadn't done anything all day (she is stay at home). I am not trying to minimize it. Her love language is words of affirmation, so the opposite of those is incredibly destructive. In fact, my criticism of her is the one thing she may never really be able to get past and could ultimately kill our marriage even if I never utter another criticism from here on out.
Couple this with my anger, resentment and constantly making derogatory statements and it was the perfect storm.
What are you doing about these^^^ ? Can you imagine any woman, regardless of her age or medication, just taking this type of behavior? is it possible that [i]part of the reason she was depressed was the way you treated her? [/i]
So I told you where this behavior originated. Again not an excuse, and I have 180'd on this since BD. Now when there are dishes piled up in the sink I ignore them. If they begin bothering me too badly then I take care of them myself. I had gotten lazy myself in helping her with the care of the pets, I am splitting those duties with her now and not fussing about it the way I used to. (We keep the dogs in the mud room when they are wet from being out, and I am usually the only one to sweep and clean in there. I would fuss the whole time prior to BD. Now I just do it with a smile on my face and whistle on my lips!)
Also we are in MC, and I am working with the counselor related to this behavior as well. If she stops MC which she has considered, I will continue with IC to work on me.
What if the medications helped keep her in the marriage? (I'm asking). Very possible. Hard to say obviously. I do wonder how much of our recent problems are related to the meds. If you do some research on those medications there are lots of stories of spouses going wayward while on them (both sexes too) only to come back to "normal" once weaning off of the meds. My biggest concern with my W is that her medical doctors have just been writing prescriptions. They might give a cursory "you should talk to someone" but then hand her a script for 6 more months and send her on her way. The MC has suggested her having a full psychiatric evaluation and she is open to it, but has not followed through with making an appointment. She may not even be alive without the meds since she was having suicidal thoughts that prompted her doctors to prescribe the ADs.
As far as my date for filing, it really was to make sure she understood that limbo was not a long-term way I was willing to live. That at some point she had to make a decision. Either stay or go. Losing her will be hard. Really hard. But I would much rather lose her than stay in a state of limbo for years. However, I have never told her that I am planning on filing if she isn't fully committed to the marriage by the end of the year. That has been only for me.
But I learned very early on (like 3 days after BD) that I had to change my approach. For the first 3 days I did all of the classic mistakes. Begged. Pleaded. Reasoned. Told her how hard it would be on our D. How hard it would be on both of our families (my family loves her and her family loves me). I moped. Cried. Walked around with a long face.
Then I found DBing. And was told I needed to let go and focus on myself. While I haven't been perfect in DBing (as documented here) I did start seeing immediately results.
For instance, she told me she wanted out and was looking for jobs and apartment. On day 3 after BD I told her I couldn't control her, that it took 2 to make a marriage but only 1 to divorce. She immediately started hedging and saying things like "I didn't want to tell you until after the holidays in case I change my mind." Small things like that. But in short, I am concentrating on the one person I can control. ME.
But if you think about it that includes eventually filing. I've been in contact with an attorney. He knows the situation. He advised me to be the one to file. In fact, when the issue of filing came up with her she was very content for me to be the one to file. But again, I gave no time frame.