Caught my wife of 19 years in an online, emotional affair. When I confronted her she immediately told me she didn't want to be married anymore.
Found out she had dating profiles on 2 different datings sites, had sent this younger man 3 sets of nude pictures, and other destructive and completely out of character behavior.
Thursday night talking to her about recently sending messages to younger men on a dating site, she said exasperatedly "I don't know what I am doing!"
A lightbulb went on in my head. She's been on Zoloft for 10 years and Wellbutrin for 5. Couple that with a midlife crisis (she turns 50 next month) and bam. I googled antidepressants and infidelity and the hits were off the chart, including this thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2778251#Post2778251I talked to her about all of this and she is open to discussing weaning herself off of the meds with her doctor to see if that makes a difference. Why isn't this more commonly known!? How many lives have been ruined due to these drugs??
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Excellent reads! Thanks Cadet. I definitely think I have a wayward wife.
I can give more details of my situation as others are interested. Obviously these things are complex and multilayered. But wow, that reading was really eye opening.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
All good advice. Thanks.
I've followed Michelle for years. This isn't the first hiccup in our marriage, and I've subscribed to Michelle's newsletter for a long time.
I've never read the book because I prefer ebooks. I wish she would publish it that way. It is easier to hide from your spouse that way too.
So some more background info.
While we've had intimacy and connections issues for years, the problem really started in earnest about 5 months ago. When my daughter went back to school my wife found herself wasting time on a few smartphone apps.
First was an online karaoke app. She would spend 5-6 hours a day on that app. She also started playing two online game apps.
All of these apps included being able to message with the people you were singing and playing with. The result was that she began to get very flirtatious with other guys, mostly younger guys.
By time I discovered all of this, at least one of these flirtatious relationships turned into a full blown emotional affair. I found messages between her and him on Facebook messenger, they suggested photos had been sent and they had discussed certain things his girlfriend wouldn't be happy with. and she had been looking up apartments in the area.
When I confronted her she said he was just a friend, that pics were just headshots, and that she didn't want to be married anymore. That she wanted to get a job, her own apartment and get divorced. (But we could still be friends, raise our daughter, and even date!)
I did all of the wrong things. Panicked, begged, pleaded, reasoned. Etc.
But by day 3 I had remembered Michelle's advice, I found other resources and I backed off and started letting go. Almost immediately she started to back down from her statement.
Since then I have found 3 sets of nudes she sent the guy. Further, while that EA ended, she had started another one with a guy in Florida. She was being much more careful this time though since she got hurt by the first guy. This guy was all into it though, his messages were very suggestive, and apparently he had sent her a pic (you can imagine what of).
I confronted her about the new evidence and she quickly began to spiral emotionally. Now she is on a roller-coaster ride, but as her delusions keep getting shattered (the first guy moving on, my finding about the second guy, my telling her that her fantasy of a magically wonderful divorce process was impossible), she reluctantly has been moving back toward the marriage.
I'll add more later, but that is enough for now.
Steve, reluctantly moving back towards the marriage? Sounds more like a spoiled teenager who just got caught doing something she wasn’t supposed to do—but really has no remorse about what she has done or plans to change except to cover it up better.
Steve, reluctantly moving back towards the marriage? Sounds more like a spoiled teenager who just got caught doing something she wasn’t supposed to do—but really has no remorse about what she has done or plans to change except to cover it up better.
Gordie you are right. She has stated that she is remorseful she got caught more than being remorseful for her actions.
Sunday morning we had a discussion about her need to flirt and to reach out to guys on the game and karaoke apps that she frequents. She said admitted she had a problem, and when I suggested she just play the games and sing without the social interaction she said she wouldn't enjoy it as much.
Yesterday she was depressed all day. Very sad, withdrawn, and uncommunicative. She finally said she had sung one last song on the karaoke app, and that she had uninstalled the app and the 2 games that she messaged people on.
Obviously there are more ways she can remain in contact, especially with this other guy, but she seems to be trying to make changes. Of course, I have major trust issues now so I am still leery of all of this.
I went through an experience much like your W. I was very depressed, on AD's, and as a way of escaping boredom, I began playing computer games. Eventually, I became brave enough to try an online game. In the beginning, whenever anyone tried to flirt, I would immediately disconnect from the game. Then one night this really funny guy was playing. He never said anything inappropriate. We soon were playing the game nearly every evening when I got home from work. It was easy talking and laughing with him. It wasn't long until I realized I could hardly wait to get online and talk with him. In fact, it became more talk than game playing. He was filling an emotional need I had had for a long time.
He warned me about falling in love with him, and I laughed and called him arrogant. Fact is, he was far more experienced about how easily EA's begin from something as simple as playing online games. It's not the game, it the rapport you build with the other person. I was not in love with him, but he filled a very lonely part in my life at the time. Anyway, he stopped connecting, and I was confused by the feelings I was experiencing. I am embarrassed to say that I was soon looking for someone else to fill that hole I felt he had left. It led to behavior that was completely opposite of the person I had always been in life.
Eventually, my H discovered my online activity. By then, I was having an EA...or Internet A, if you will. It had become serious.......at least, for me. I say serious, b/c of the emotional/mental state I was in at the time. I, too, was anti-depressants, along with other medication. I had been yanked around with doctors trying to find something to help me cope with Fibromyalgia. At the time, it seemed every doctor had their own theory about the illness. So, one doctor would put in on too much medication, and the next doctor would pull me off everything at once, cold turkey.
How much this had to do with my decisions and behavior, I really don't know. My M had been suffering for years. We had been dealing with several serious stressors for a long time. Then, my adult D and grandchild had to move in with us for a while, and that seemed to have been the straw that broke my back. I had an overwhelming desire to escape. In hindsight, I can see how everything worked together in making the dominos fall.
I have never used the medication as an excuse, and I take full responsibility for my actions. I believe everything that was going on with me, and everything going on around me, was a heavy influence. However, I was still on medication as I went through withdrawals. By that, I don't mean withdrawals from the AD's, but from the EA with the OM........and especially, the fantasy I created to escape my reality.
Your W is addicted to all of this online activity that she has created to fill her life. I learned the hard way, that a person can do one thing that may be considered a little "no-no".......like flirting with a faceless stranger you'll probably never meet.......and it forms a desire to do more. In other words, when you give in to a smaller temptation, you become more receptive to bigger temptations. Just like a drug that gets you high, it requires you going further and taking more. In order to get the same thrill, you have to get bolder, try new & daring things. Before you know it, you are off into something that you never dreamed of doing. It's all to just get a cheap feel-good moment. It's similar to going to a bar and looking at what's out there. A hookup usually begins with flirting, but look at where it can lead. The danger with meeting online, is the false sense of protection you feel on this side of the computer, but that's another subject.
Your W may not be able to ever engage in the online activities, and use the apps that leads her into unbidden territory. Currently, it is a temptation that she can not handle. She will have to completely stay away from everything that opens a door to that sort of activity. It may sound ridiculous to people who have never had the experience. It is real, and we are hearing more and more tragic results from this sort of activity.......especially in MR's.
It wasn't just the online junk I had to end. I gave up reading romantic novels, as well. Surprisingly, even my H could tell they were having some type of affect on my attitude toward him. You may ask what on earth is wrong with romantic novels. Nothing is wrong with them, just as there is nothing wrong with playing an innocent computer game. But for me, it fed my fantasies. I had a lot of unmet emotional needs in my MR, and I hungered for a man like I read about in the stories. After years of reading these novels, it actually caused me to see my H in a more critical light, b/c I was comparing him to some fictional character. I know how immature or slightly insane this must sound, and it is difficult for me to share this truth. I only do it in hopes that others will learn something from it.
The bottom line is that I had a wayward mindset. That was the foundation to most of the other problems. Although for years I had conducted myself as the proper Christian W and mother, however, I was very unhappy in my MR. I had tried to do everything I could learn that would improve things, but nothing changed my H. That was what I wanted, really, for him to change. Anyway, I slowly gave up and began retreating into my fantasies........which can have a serious outcome. I was one of the lucky or blessed people, that something worse did not happen as a result from the online stuff. And, my M was saved.......thanks to God, and to finding this board that had the mentors I needed.
We don't have much history about your MR, but I would bet she had resentment and some disrespect stored in her heart for some time. The depression and effects from the wrong AD's rapidly intensified problems.......and perhaps played a part in her behavior. Currently, you are left with a W in a mess! I wish you all the luck in the world. It will not be easy for either of you, but she can get back on the right track......and your M can be saved.
I hope you will stick with us, and post often. This forum has a lot of caring folks.
.
Sandi, thanks. Wow you nailed everything pretty much on the head. Funny you mention being a Christian W, since both my wife and I are devout Christians in a very conservative church. Which makes this all the more difficult as I am dealing and coping without much support in order to try to help her save face. I think having to rebuild her standing in the church would be an obstacle to great for her to bear, and she wouldn't be able come back to the M if she has too much work to do.
She is a runner. She will run away from conflict and people she disappoints every chance she gets. She doesn't handle stress well, and feels that once she disappoints a person there is no way to rebuild solid footing. Which is a lot of our problems. I think part of it is that she holds grudges herself. So she assumes others can't get over past grievances either. (I know, antithetical to Christian doctrine of sin and forgiveness.)
She does seem to have recognized her problem and does seem to want to correct it. However, she still has this tug of wanting what she wants, regardless of whom it hurts. Wayward for sure. I think I caught it before it was full on scorched earth, but she has set up so many fantasy for what her future life can be that she can't seem to want to face the truth of reality.
And the turning 50 next month seems to be a big sticking point for her as well.
Depression and ADs + Wayward + Midlife Crisis + an Imperfect H (it sounds I am very similar to the way you H was) = PERFECT STORM
Sometimes I wonder if it is too much to overcome? Anyone know how long a typical female MLC lasts? I have begun to change the Imperfect H (in fact last week she said I have been being awesome lately). I am hoping she will wean off the ADs, and that will help with the waywardness IF we can keep her depression in check.
Why does this all have to be so difficult?!?
So a little more info:
My wife has done a lot of revisionist history related to our marriage.
We have been together for 21 years. Married for 19 in April. To hear her talk it has been terrible the whole time. Never mind taht she pursued me hard, wanted to (and would have) got married at the 6 month dating mark, and had journals full of how much she loved me and wanted to spend the rest of her life with me.
The big sticking point in our marriage was sex. She had no sex drive pretty much right after the wedding. Yes I was affectionate, attentive, gave reassurances, went on dates, etc. Nothing worked.
I remember our first Valentine's Day as a married couple. I bought her a gift, took her to a very expensive, fancy restaurant. Really made it a special night for her.
That night she made it clear she wasn't in the mood.
As you can see, overtime I began to pull back the non-sexual affection, reassurances, etc. Overtime I fell into a place where I was hurt, angry, frustrated and resentful.
But even through that we had our daughter. We worked on the marriage at times. I was distant at times as my needs were met, but then again so was she.
We still often laughed, cried, shared, etc. Just rarely did it lead to physical intimacy.
Things got better for a time after her emotional affair in 2005 (can't remember if I mentioned that). We renewed efforts to rebuild our relationship. But in the 12 1/2 years since have fallen back into some similar patterns (lack of physical intimacy from her, pulling back on the emotional intimacy from me).
Still, I would have said we had a fairly good relationship. We don't argue a lot. Usually discuss things of importance. True she had really slipped from her normal stay-at-home chores (housework, laundry, etc) as she got more and more involved with the online singing app and social gaming apps. And that caused me to get bigger and critical when I would come home from work and begin to do what needed to be done. I would make comments under my breath, or do the chores in an angry, passive-aggressive way.
But still, I never expected the bomb she dropped on 12/23/2017. And we have been in a resistant recovery ever since.
The problem for me is she response positively (I know I shouldn't be reading her reactions) to both the Mort Fertel methods (talk charges, touch charges, date nights) as well as the 180 method. So it is confusing to me to try to tread. I think next week I will renew my efforts at pulling back, letting go, GAL, and moving on.
But since has started to make positive moves (giving up the apps, and presumably the connections she shouldn't have had), I don't want to thwart that.
I just not sure what the right approach is.
Well she reinstalled the singing app.
Looks like I'll have to really apply the 180 method. Wish me luck.
I called her with two suggestions related to the offending apps:
1) Leave her phone unlocked.
2) Limit the amount of time she spends on the singing app (she usually spends 5-7 hours while I am at work and D is at school).
She got defensive. Said she felt like a 14 year-old. And she was uninstalling the app.
Then came the weird logic. When I told her I didn't want her to uninstall it because singing on it made her happy, she said: "It doesn't matter."
I said what doesn't matter? She said "Whether I have it installed or not."
Huh? I told her that didn't make sense to which she said "nothing makes sense".
Anyone got any thoughts on this?
Also, after doing a lot of reading here it is obvious to me that my wife is a WW. No doubt about it.
A lightbulb went on in my head. She's been on Zoloft for 10 years and Wellbutrin for 5. Couple that with a midlife crisis (she turns 50 next month) and bam. I googled antidepressants and infidelity and the hits were off the chart
My timeline was very similar to yours. At the time of BD I was 50 and my W 48. Married almost 20 years, 3 great kids, W on A/D's for over 10 years. We had a marriage that was the envy of all our friends and family. So BD really shocked me, never saw it coming. I too looked for the "magic bullet", the explanation on why it happened and how to "fix" it. There isn't one. You've got to resolve yourself to the fact that you are not ever going to know why it happened, and that there's no easy fix for it.
Anyone know how long a typical female MLC lasts?
A short MLC would be 2-3 years. A long one would be 8-10 years. Most fall somewhere between. But here's the real kicker, sometimes it's not MLC, it's a "life change". Life change can look exactly like MLC, but the difference is it never ends. It's what my XW went through. She changed into a different person. She's different to everyone- me, our kids, friends and family. It happens around the time menopause starts, different women are affected differently. But a fairly common characteristic is the need to be less of a caregiver and more independent. They've put others' needs first for most of their adult life and now it's time for them. Sometimes a long-term M gets sacrificed in the process.
I am hoping she will wean off the ADs, and that will help with the waywardness IF we can keep her depression in check.
I remember putting my hopes on that too. My XW actually did try to wean off and she spiraled right back into depression and that was the end of that. She is now resolved to being on them the rest of her life.
Look, I know as well as anyone the need to believe there's some magic trick to get out of this and put things "back to normal" but it just doesn't work that way. Look at my timeline, my sitch is old and I've been on here a long time. There has not been a single case on here of a WAS simply "snapping out of it" by taking a different drug, or not taking one she took before. It just doesn't happen. The recons happen after long periods of time in which the LBS detached, became independent, built a life separate from their WAS and left their WAS alone. The WAS has to go through a soul-searching, and at the end of it sometimes they want back and sometimes they don't. You've got to get yourself to the point where you are going to thrive no matter what the outcome.
Then came the weird logic. When I told her I didn't want her to uninstall it because singing on it made her happy, she said: "It doesn't matter."
I said what doesn't matter? She said "Whether I have it installed or not."
Huh? I told her that didn't make sense to which she said "nothing makes sense".
Anyone got any thoughts on this?
My take is she is telling you that she is unhappy. She's realizing the app was a band-aid for the unhappiness. While it was an escape, it wasn't fixing it. This is fairly typical WAS script but she is more than likely going to assign 99% blame for her unhappiness on the most convenient target which is YOU. Anything you say or do will just reinforce her belief that you are controlling, manipulative and making her suffer. This is why DB'ing is so important. If you remove pressure from her and detach from her then eventually she'll realize you are not the problem. But if you keep telling her how to fix her problems then she'll think YOU are the problem.
Steve,
You can't treat your W like a kid. And that's what you did with those demands.
You told her to leave her phone unlock and limit the amount of time on the app, what are the consequences to her not doing those things. What are you going to do?
You are treating her like she is 14. You can't make demands and expect a person not to get defensive.
A better way to approach a situation where you find something disrespectful is to state what you will not live with in the M and what you are willing to do if she goes against that (boundaries not demands). Read up on boundaries and what the entail.
In other words, her using an app doesn't hurt you physically, so what kind of boundary can you create out of her using an app?
Those are questions you have to ask yourself before you go down the road of demanding something.
The best thing you can do in this situation, is detach and become a person only a fool would leave. Show her a man that respect himself. IMO you trying to force her to do those things makes you look weak.
No more demanding. Have your W decided she wants to be in the M? If not you need to detach, GAL, and do 180s. If you were demanding before than you have to 180 those situations. Stop pursuing her. Pull back and let go. Give her space.
She has created an alternate reality of the M, the only way for that to change is if you give her space and time to clear her head. You have to let go for that to happen.
Get ready for hardwork, prepare yourself for the roller coaster ride.
Onward and Forward.
Thank you all for the responses. You are all very right. I have not done this very well at all. I glob on to anything I detect as positive and then downward spiral when the inevitable other shoe drops.
I will resolve myself to fixing that and move toward a complete detachment, GAL, and 180.
I feel like this all is too much. The drugs, depression, MLC, waywardness, and all the other baggage that 19 years of marriage brings to the table is too big of a mountain to climb. I know baby steps. But man is this hard.
Then came the weird logic. When I told her I didn't want her to uninstall it because singing on it made her happy, she said: "It doesn't matter."
I said what doesn't matter? She said "Whether I have it installed or not."
Huh? I told her that didn't make sense to which she said "nothing makes sense".
Anyone got any thoughts on this?
My take is she is telling you that she is unhappy. She's realizing the app was a band-aid for the unhappiness. While it was an escape, it wasn't fixing it. This is fairly typical WAS script but she is more than likely going to assign 99% blame for her unhappiness on the most convenient target which is YOU. Anything you say or do will just reinforce her belief that you are controlling, manipulative and making her suffer. This is why DB'ing is so important. If you remove pressure from her and detach from her then eventually she'll realize you are not the problem. But if you keep telling her how to fix her problems then she'll think YOU are the problem.
Yes you are right. I am the problem in her mind.
A lightbulb went on in my head. She's been on Zoloft for 10 years and Wellbutrin for 5. Couple that with a midlife crisis (she turns 50 next month) and bam. I googled antidepressants and infidelity and the hits were off the chart
My timeline was very similar to yours. At the time of BD I was 50 and my W 48. Married almost 20 years, 3 great kids, W on A/D's for over 10 years. We had a marriage that was the envy of all our friends and family. So BD really shocked me, never saw it coming. I too looked for the "magic bullet", the explanation on why it happened and how to "fix" it. There isn't one. You've got to resolve yourself to the fact that you are not ever going to know why it happened, and that there's no easy fix for it.
Anyone know how long a typical female MLC lasts?
A short MLC would be 2-3 years. A long one would be 8-10 years. Most fall somewhere between. But here's the real kicker, sometimes it's not MLC, it's a "life change". Life change can look exactly like MLC, but the difference is it never ends. It's what my XW went through. She changed into a different person. She's different to everyone- me, our kids, friends and family. It happens around the time menopause starts, different women are affected differently. But a fairly common characteristic is the need to be less of a caregiver and more independent. They've put others' needs first for most of their adult life and now it's time for them. Sometimes a long-term M gets sacrificed in the process.
I am hoping she will wean off the ADs, and that will help with the waywardness IF we can keep her depression in check.
I remember putting my hopes on that too. My XW actually did try to wean off and she spiraled right back into depression and that was the end of that. She is now resolved to being on them the rest of her life.
Look, I know as well as anyone the need to believe there's some magic trick to get out of this and put things "back to normal" but it just doesn't work that way. Look at my timeline, my sitch is old and I've been on here a long time. There has not been a single case on here of a WAS simply "snapping out of it" by taking a different drug, or not taking one she took before. It just doesn't happen. The recons happen after long periods of time in which the LBS detached, became independent, built a life separate from their WAS and left their WAS alone. The WAS has to go through a soul-searching, and at the end of it sometimes they want back and sometimes they don't. You've got to get yourself to the point where you are going to thrive no matter what the outcome.
Thank you. The life change things scares me. I could see this being her situation exactly.
I hope her faith in God prevents her from acting on this but so far it hasn't.
Steve,
You can't treat your W like a kid. And that's what you did with those demands.
You told her to leave her phone unlock and limit the amount of time on the app, what are the consequences to her not doing those things. What are you going to do?
You are treating her like she is 14. You can't make demands and expect a person not to get defensive.
A better way to approach a situation where you find something disrespectful is to state what you will not live with in the M and what you are willing to do if she goes against that (boundaries not demands). Read up on boundaries and what the entail.
In other words, her using an app doesn't hurt you physically, so what kind of boundary can you create out of her using an app?
Those are questions you have to ask yourself before you go down the road of demanding something.
The best thing you can do in this situation, is detach and become a person only a fool would leave. Show her a man that respect himself. IMO you trying to force her to do those things makes you look weak.
No more demanding. Have your W decided she wants to be in the M? If not you need to detach, GAL, and do 180s. If you were demanding before than you have to 180 those situations. Stop pursuing her. Pull back and let go. Give her space.
She has created an alternate reality of the M, the only way for that to change is if you give her space and time to clear her head. You have to let go for that to happen.
Get ready for hardwork, prepare yourself for the roller coaster ride.
Onward and Forward.
Thank you Joe. I am 7 1/2 weeks in and it feels like it is just getting started.
I remember our first Valentine's Day as a married couple. I bought her a gift, took her to a very expensive, fancy restaurant. Really made it a special night for her.
That night she made it clear she wasn't in the mood.
It's interesting the way you phrase this. As if you [i]deserved[i] physical intimacy after doing all that effort. Even though you say that the night was for
her, you ended the night disappointed because you didnt get what you want. To me, this is typical "nice guy" behavior...which really isnt all that nice. It's putting uncommunicated expectations in place and then getting mad when they arent met. Have you looked into these tendencies?
I get that physical intimacy is an important part of a marriage. And I know MWD has written books on working through those types of issues. Maybe consider reading those as well.
As you can see, overtime I began to pull back the non-sexual affection, reassurances, etc. Overtime I fell into a place where I was hurt, angry, frustrated and resentful.
Right. You punish her for not meeting your expectations....in that hope that it.....makes her WANT to be more intimate with you? Do you see how backwards that logic is?
The problem for me is she response positively (I know I shouldn't be reading her reactions) to both the Mort Fertel methods (talk charges, touch charges, date nights) as well as the 180 method. So it is confusing to me to try to tread. I think next week I will renew my efforts at pulling back, letting go, GAL, and moving on.
You have got to pick something and stick to it. How can you possibly merge a method which sounds like pursuit with a different method focusing on stopping pursuit? I dont know anything about the other author, but my feeling is that if she is not interested in being with you right now, then increasing your touch and talking with her is only going to push her away.
She is a runner. She will run away from conflict and people she disappoints every chance she gets. She doesn't handle stress well, and feels that once she disappoints a person there is no way to rebuild solid footing. Which is a lot of our problems. I think part of it is that she holds grudges herself. So she assumes others can't get over past grievances either. (I know, antithetical to Christian doctrine of sin and forgiveness.)
I do not recommend that you out your W to the church.......(unless she has a role of leadership, then you might have to approach the pastor to talk to her). I don't think outting her to the church, will solve any of the M problems.
She does seem to have recognized her problem and does seem to want to correct it. However, she still has this tug of wanting what she wants, regardless of whom it hurts. Wayward for sure. I think I caught it before it was full on scorched earth, but she has set up so many fantasy for what her future life can be that she can't seem to want to face the truth of reality.
It's the taboo that was alluring to me. As I said, I had always been a very good girl growing up. I was a virgin when I married, and didn't drink or smoke......or even say ugly words. I was very devoted to the Christian way of life. It was when I was feeling at my lowest in the MR, that I stuck my toe over the line, and that's all it took to suk me into activity that thrived on lust. Feeling so numb had left me vulnerable, but in spite of the meds and the other conditions.......I still knew what I was doing. I had free will, and I chose to do what I did. But yes, I found what I had previously seen as a "bad girl", very alluring. In time, however, the truth that been instilled in my heart spoke to me. One night I felt desperate to talk to someone about my feelings. I started searching the Internet for a Christian chat room. I had never been on a forum in my life. I found one, but I guess the timing was wrong, b/c they were cutting up and not taking me seriously. So, I checked out and searched some more. That's when I found the DB board. I wanted people to talk straight to me. I did not need cuddling, but I wanted someone to understand.
When your W reaches the place that she is open to receiving information, then she can learn about what is happening to her....and why.....and what she needs to do...... and what will happen if she chooses not to take the advice. Not as a threat, but just to educate. It is her decision in how she chooses to go. I am not allowed to give the name of the book, but I read a non-religious book written about women's infidelity. It really got my attention, enough that it sort of scared me at the possible final results for a woman staying on the course I was headed.
Her "willingness" is more important than her "want to" at the present time. If she is willing to get the information, then there is hope something will open her eyes. I am not referring to Christian material, necessarily. Most people who are engaged in this type of activity puts up a wall toward anything relative to "thou shalt" and "thou shalt not", b/c they are in rebellion. Your W is rebelling against her MR. For me, reading secular information worked well, b/c I didn't have the walls up as much.
I first learned how affairs (EA, PA, or IA) are addictive, and how it releases brain chemicals similar to what we felt when we fell in love. The body responds in the same way. It's like a high you get from drugs, and it is addictive. So, once the high dies down, you have to make contact with the source that gave you such a great feeling. If you stop the affair, and/or end all contact with the source.......you will experience strong cravings/desire to make contact again. You need a fix! If you don't get a fix, you will experience withdrawals. If I had not received this information before I ended my A, I don't know if I would have made it through the withdrawals. It was terrible, and my depression only got worse. But, I did get through it, thanks to God and the great DB mentors I had back then.
Some women may be too reluctant to even read about the information. If the H pushes it on her, she may resist b/c she is rebelling against him. So, he is in a delicate position. And some women are so hard hearted that they seem to not care if there are devastating consequences for her.....or anyone else. These are the most difficult to reach or to deal with, b/c of their hardness. And again, these hard women are usually the ones who will not be receptive to any form of shaming, brow beating, threats, or preachy type lectures. They will not be pressured into reading/hearing information......or to change their ways. They know they are wrong, so telling them they are bad/wrong does no good. But if they feel they are choosing to read an article, or whatever, b/c they are curious or interested.....then I think there is more hope of it impacting them.
but she has set up so many fantasy for what her future life can be that she can't seem to want to face the truth of reality.
Fantasy was my hardest part to overcome. So, how does one fight another person's fantasy? The only way is to use reality. Life will have to provide most of it. But, there are a few things you can do, also. We can discuss it, as you post more.
And the turning 50 next month seems to be a big sticking point for her as well.
Well, society doesn't help us with the age thingy. Is she one who lets it really bother her, or is more about her looks showing her age? Does she talk a lot about life being short? Has she lost someone in death recently? Someone really close? Is there any event you know about that could have triggered this sudden change in your W?
My suggestion for now, is to stop using the term MLC in connection with her. Just b/c she is turning 50 does not mean she is having a MLC. Just b/c she's having a crisis does not mean it is the same as a MLC is defined. Maybe that makes no sense to you. She might actually be having a MLC. IMHO, I think most MLC for women are related to a childhood trauma that was never dealt with properly. So, unless you know of some life changing event that took place when she was growing up........I wouldn't jump into diagnosing her with MLC just yet.
Sometimes I wonder if it is too much to overcome? Anyone know how long a typical female MLC lasts?
Let me put it this way. You had better hope you are dealing with a wayward W! Waywardness is a choice. It is based on resentment, disrespect and rebellion. Her own selfishness and anger motivates her behavior. (That is a simple description). For a woman in true MLC, it is more complicated. It usually involves some psychological issues connected to her past. The crisis can be triggered by the death of someone close, or some other event (like facing her own mortality) that causes the unresolved issues to influence her current behavior. The crisis can last for years and then go into replay. I hope for everyone's sake, especially hers, that it is not a MLC. If turning 50 brings about this type of crisis, then I suggest she gets phscological treatment as soon as possible. Only, she probably won't agree.
The major differences I see in the two type of crisis: Waywardness is an issue with the heart. MLC is an issue with the past. One has actions based on anger, the other has actions based on fear. That's JMHO.
@Amoafwl
You make really good points. Yes I am guilty of thinking that if I did nice things to make her feel loved that it would result in intimacy. But that is because that is what she told me! Yes maybe I telegraphed that and she knew the purpose behind it. I've learned over the years to try to show her love just because I love her, not because I want sex. But I was 30 years-old in the story I told, been married for almost a year and was averaging < 1 time per month of sex. I was admittedly horny.
On your last point, I think my situation is a little different than most in that she is 50% wanting out and 50% wanting to stay. When I pull back the 50% wanting out draws towards me, but the 50% wanting to stay is hurt. When I am affectionate, attentive, and present the 50% wanting out is pushed away, the 50% wanting to stay is comforted and assured.
My wife is a bit atypical, and maybe it is because I caught it before her heart was completely gone. When I confronted her about the EA in Dec, she said she wanted a divorce. I begged, pleaded, reasoned, all the things you are supposed not to do. The next day she was very affectionate to me (Christmas Eve). Sitting close, holding my hand, rubbing my back, putting her arm around me. Later when I pointed this out she said it was because she could tell I was hurting.
By dec 26th I had read MWD, and others, and I started letting go. Immediately she started to hedge on her decision. She said at one point "I was hoping to wait until after the holidays so I could see if the excitement of getting a job, getting my own apartment and moving out would subside."
So you can see I am in a merged situation where neither tactic really work 100%, but they both seem to work.
@Sandi2
As always your insights are so spot on.
I won't out her to the church mainly because that would be one more barrier to reconciliation. This is also why I have not confided in any of our friends or family. I said previously that my wife is a runner. If she perceives people (church brothers and sisters, friends, family) think poorly of her she will withdraw from them. And that will be a BARRIER (not an obstacle) to her coming back. I use the term barrier very consciously here.
The good news she is open to information. Willing reading both sides of the equation. She wants to find things that tell her what she is doing is right, but those are few and far between. And she is at least absorbing that most agree that what she is doing is wrong. Not just on moral ground but also on what is best for our daughter. Once I shattered the illusion that our home life was unhealthy (and have maintained the reality that we have a good home life for 8 weeks now), she has realized that the trauma of divorce for our daughter will be similar to what she experienced with her parents (though I have never been physically abusive the way her father was to her mother).
Also, I think over time the fantasy has been fading. She had fantasy of this OM being so good for her ego. Then after he got 3 sets of pictures from her he ended the online EA. She's been very much more careful with OM2, even though he has been very pushy and suggestive. She thought she could get a work-at-home job that would pay enough to sustain her, and allow her to continue to live her double-life. She's finding that isn't as easy as she thought. The cost of housing is higher than she anticipated and that reality has set in. As well as the fantasy of the perfect, easy divorce being shattered.
The result is that she has done nothing since the middle of January to move forward with her plan of the divorce. She worked on her resume but never finished it. Researched jobs but never applied. Obviously has done nothing towards getting a divorce (other than some internet research).
As far as OM and OM2, both are losers. OM is unemployed, sits in his 81 year-old father's house and sings on karaoke apps all day. OM2 is a security supervisor (a fancy name for a security guard that has to supervise the other guards) at about ~$50k/year. Both divorced. OM2 has a kid. Neither are in a position to support a 50 year-old house wife (OM is 39, OM2 is 42), and both have girlfriends. (Note I am not belittling anyone's job sitch, just pointing out that neither of the OM are in a position to take on another dependent.)
That paragraph is very disheartening because it tells me that her lack of options is why she is still here. But if that moves us toward reconciliation than so be it.
As far as the MLC, yes she has unresolved issues. The big one being that when she was 19 she went home during a break at college. Her step-father came into her room in the middle of night, rubbed her back and asked her for sex. Her mom did nothing supportive, wanted to stay with her step-father, and asked my wife to please go back to the way things were before the proposition. Couple that with her unresolved anger at her dad (abusive to her mom, emotionally and verbally abusive to her over the years), and you can see there is definitely triggers for a MLC.
To help with my situation I am going to take sandi2's definitions of a WW and keep the ones that apply to my situation:
*She is not the girl you married. She no longer feels the same and won't act the same.
*No matter what her values and spiritual beliefs have been in the past, and regardless of the high standard of morals she held, they have temporarily vanished. For how, nobody knows.
*She does not want to be fixed. Nobody can fix her, especially you.
*She is in complete rebellion, and will defy you when you make demands, threats or give ultimatums.
*Her heart has turned cold and selfish. All she thinks about is what makes her feel good at the moment.
*You cannot change her mind, influence, convince, or sway her by talk.
*Her brain has lost all capacity to use logic. Therefore, you cannot reason with her.
*She is addicted to the high she gets from the A. She will do most anything to get her "fix" again.
*She cannot be trusted as long as she is wayward, and until she goes through the complete withdrawal stage from OM/A.
*She will cake eat whenever it suits her......if you allow it.
*She wants the best part of the M and the A. She gets the H for security and OM for her emotional needs.
*She will bait her H, and test him.
*She will give him just enough crumbs to keep him hanging on and attached.
*She keeps the M/H as her plan B, in case A/OM doesn't work out.
*She will be interested in H if he detaches, acts as if he is busy, happy, moving on without her, and won't give her the details when she starts asking.
*Pursuit from her H only pushes her further away.
*She is living in a fantasy world. She wants the dream to continue.
*She will blame her H for every thing wrong in her life. His apology does not erase her resentment. She will totally rewrite their marital history. She holds on to her anger toward him b/c it fuels her negative view of the M and justifies her present actions.
* Her common sense is gone and she only operates from her emotions.
*She is willing to risk everything and throw everything away for her addiction when the A is at its thickest.
*She sees her H as the enemy.
*She has to suffer some type of loss (due to her decisions) in order to shake her from her fantasy fog.
* She is on a roller coaster and will not act the same every single day. Her emotions will be up, down, and all over the place....but never on an even keel.
Wow, couldn't delete a single one. There are some that aren't always true, but that relates more to the last point: roller coaster.
One day she behaves as if the marriage is over and she is moving on with Plan A (even though she never actually takes any tangible action towards that IE FANTASY). The next she acts like her future is with me and our daughter, and the life we've created (church, friends, activities).
So I think I will need to truly detach, but I am afraid since I was an absent husband this will backfire. Anyone ever been in my shoes? Where you were detached before all of this, so detaching further seems to be the wrong thing to do?
sandi2, another question. I see your suggestions for dealing with a WW in an A. You don't specify what kind of A. What if it is wholly an EA, no physical contact. In fact, the OM is several states away and neither has the money or time setup meetings.
Should I still get her out of the marital BR? Should I still withdraw all the other things you suggest?
So I think I will need to truly detach, but I am afraid since I was an absent husband this will backfire. Anyone ever been in my shoes? Where you were detached before all of this, so detaching further seems to be the wrong thing to do?
From what I read, the majority of H's experience this concern. I feel they may not really grasp the healthy DB detaching we promote. It is not acting as if you are mad, cold, or sullen. You don't have to be physically absent to be detached. It is an attitude. It is a mindset.
I can't keep up with all the people I send a copy of my favorite version of the definition of true DB Detaching, so if I sent this previously, mark it down to my fading memory. I like this one, b/c it is short and simple.
**********************************************************************************************
Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she "really is" rather than who I "want him/her to be."
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.
_________________________
Sandi, however, some of the steps you advocate (removing from the MBR, withdrawing of financial support, etc) seems more strong than the above definition of detachment.
I think if I do what you suggest in the thread I linked above then she will feel abandoned. The list you just cut and paste is absolutely something I can try and employ. It will be difficult but I can work on it.
Just another day in limbo. She's being sweet as punch. Sits all day on her singing app. Doing nothing to proceed toward her plan. I need to start the 180.
sandi2, another question. I see your suggestions for dealing with a WW in an A. You don't specify what kind of A. What if it is wholly an EA, no physical contact. In fact, the OM is several states away and neither has the money or time setup meetings.
Should I still get her out of the marital BR? Should I still withdraw all the other things you suggest?
It really causes frustration when i read a statement like this, b/c I feel I must not have made myself clear. You have to bear in mind that was directed to a general audience here on the board, not to a specific individual's case. Although I tried to give scenario's behind my suggestions of what to "withdraw" (as you put it), maybe I missed the mark. Some WW's are like dealing with a shedevil, while others do not act out their rebellion as openly/badly. Some WW's are more defiant, hateful, disrespectful, on & on. It depends upon how deep into the wayward activity, and if the couple is separated, how she responds, etc., as to what action the H takes.
If she is in a PA, and she
knows her H is aware of the A.......and if she is not willing to end it, then IMHO, the H should request that she not remain in the marital bedroom. If she doesn't know that he is aware of the A, then it's up to him if he wants her to sleep elsewhere. A lot depends upon how she shows respect toward him in front of the children & others, as well as how she treats him in everything else. If there has been nothing said about an A, then if he tells her to sleep elsewhere......then of course, he'll probably need to address the reason behind it. Personally, I find it difficult to understand why a spouse would want to continue sleeping with the unfaithful spouse, but that's just me. Many H's have asked if they have to ask their WW to leave the marital bedroom. My answer is, "No, if you want to sleep with an unfaithful W, that's your business". My point behind having the WW leave the marital bedroom is this: The H demonstrates his position as the head of the home, and his unwillingness to engage in an open marriage. If his WW has involved a third person, she has forced the M into an open sexual relationship. If he has told her to end the A, and she refuses.......then that clearly throws the ball back to him. What is his next move? Unless he intends to throw her out of the house, then I suggest he has her leave their marital bedroom. I hope you read what the marital bedroom represents in the home and the family. So, with that in mind, and considering the bed has been defiled by the WW's infidelity, what does the H do to show that he will not support an open M?
If the WW is in an EA only, it is a little more complicated for me to give a one size fits all answer. Is the OM aware of her feelings? Has OM encourage the EA? Does he return the same attention/affection? Are they texting each other, or doing something that is inappropriate? Is she keeping her A activity private/secret? What if the OM has no clue of the WW's thoughts/feelings about him. See what I mean? If she is conducting herself in any inappropriate way, and the H has discussed it with her, and his WW refuses to stop........then what does he do? He may not be able to force her to stop an A, but he can refuse to engage in intimacy and/or sleeping with her in what is designed as the marital bedroom......while she is trying to have another man. Requesting that she sleeps somewhere other than in the marital bedroom, is not a punitive action. As the leader of the home, it is the H's responsibility to enforce respect for the marriage & home to the best of his ability.......including the marital bedroom. If he has not been the unfaithful spouse, then why should he be the one to sleep on the couch?
When the WW leaves the marital bedroom, she experiences a taste of reality. It's like punching a little hole in her fantasy bubble. There are consequences when one chooses to cheat. Whether it is an affair of the heart, or physical infedelity.......she has invited another man into an institution designed by God for two people to love each other intimately and safely within that sexual union. If she does not wish to be faithful, then she should divorce her H, rather than engage in infidelity.
Sandi, however, some of the steps you advocate (removing from the MBR, withdrawing of financial support, etc) seems more strong than the above definition of detachment.
I fail to make the same connection that you are seeing. I copied and pasted the previous terms of detachment, b/c it was a shorter and more simply written. (The link on the homework page goes into greater detail). My threads on the WW do not contradict detaching, or vise-versa. Maybe you could point out which part you saw on detachment?
BTW, in reference to withdrawing financial support (for anyone who has not read that thread), I believe it is regarding financing anything that enables the A or her GGW lifestyle, and if there is a separation.......not financing the WW beyond the acceptable child support. Just wanted to clarify that part.
I think if I do what you suggest in the thread I linked above then she will feel abandoned. The list you just cut and paste is absolutely something I can try and employ. It will be difficult but I can work on it.
If you can accomplish the detaching, that's great. As for her feeling abandoned............really? She is on OM#2, right? (If I have not confused posters). The fact that he lives in another state does not mean your M is safe and that she is not involved whole heartily in an affair. There is no skin on skin. Otherwise, the OM is filling that need for her, while you take care of other needs (like food and shelter). With today's technology......there is quite a bit that can be done to satisfy the long distant lover. Sorry to be so blunt, but you need to realize that EA's are
extremely serious for women. Men seem to put more emphasis on the physical part of an affair. However, it is not the same for women. Their emotions are tied to their soul, so an emotional affair runs very deeply for them. That's why many W's and mothers have left their families to go meet some other guy who lives across the country.
Look, if you don't want to follow my suggestions you read in the WW threads, that's fine. This is your life and your decision. However, I strongly encourage you to follow the detaching.
I don't know your W......but I
do know her in a way. She is in serious trouble. The more you cater to her, protect her from consequences, and continue to be the nice-guy H who is afraid to apply tough love.........the closer you are to losing her forever. I don't want you making any big moves before you understand and know what you are doing and why. If I am reading you correctly, you are misunderstanding what I was saying in my thread. Maybe you read too quickly, or maybe I just failed to relay properly. I'll be glad to try to clarify something, if you will be more specific.
If you do nothing, what do you expect to happen? I mean, seriously. Do you think this will just run its course and then everything will return to normal? I hope you will prove my bad feeling wrong. My concern is that you are going to take no action that is uncomfortable, and you will go along for the ride. I hope not. I hope you won't lay down and roll over, thinking everything will eventually work itself out. I hope you will stand tall and be a man of courage and strength.
I encourage you to stick with us. Keep reading, and keep posting. This is going to get much worse before it gets better. Buckle up!
Thank you Sandi. I'm going to start detaching. I'm not planning to sit back. I know i need to give her consequences. But my situation is a little different in ways.
Oh one other thing. She agreed to go to a psychiatrist to get evaluated. Since her medical doctor seems to be just a prescription writer.
Hi Steve85,
I've scanned your story in brief cause I'm just so busy with my kids I struggle for time, so please accept my apologies if my two cents are not helpful at all. But, my W had depression and physical issues etc. I was convinced this caused all her problems. We were together for 17 years, childhood sweethearts, she was a respected member of the community and had no real marital issues out of the ordinary. Its been nearly 6 months since she abandoned me and our young kids for another man. Still have not got a clue how long the A was going on for, but by all estimates on and off for 2 years.
In the beginning, I was devastated to say the least. Now I'm still hurting, but I can honestly say she has set me free. I day dreamed about her turning up at the door full of apologies and remorse. Now I keep my doors locked on the chance it could happen. I am a man of morals, she is not, full stop! I know now I have loved the idea of who I thought she was, not the women she is. Do I wish it was different, yes! But it isn't and never will be, I am mourning the loss of what might have been, but it was a pipe dream that blew up the second she confided in another man and had her needs met elsewhere.
I realize this is a militant approach, but I so wish I had not danced for her in the beginning shouting pick me, and instead did the conga in the other direction!
Liam, thanks for the perspective. It may end up being the same with my wife.
I know i need to give her consequences. But my situation is a little different in ways.
Can you tell how it is different? Don't confuse consequences with punishment. I encourage you to read the link describing boundaries. Maybe it will explain consequences, better than I have.
I saw where you referred to the Mort Fertel methods. I never bought his tapes, but I once signed up for his newsletters. I know those type of letters are very "general", however, it appeared the message encouraged a pursuing type of behavior. Maybe it was just my frame of mind, IDK.
Do you feel a bit confused after reading from various authors and/or the forums?
Many years ago, I purchased a program that was advertised to save M's, put the sizzle back ino M's that had fizzled, etc. If I had had something like that right after my wedding it would have been great...a lot of fun, in fact. But I was in a place that was much more serious than what that program offered.
If you feel confused by what you read, hear others say, etc., you will have to choose what you feel has real "meat" and experience behind the message. In other words, don't get advice from some friend who has never experienced a similar situation.
Keep talking to us about your situation. Don't give up.
Thank you sandi. I guess my situation is different in that my wife isn't doing anything to leave. Routinely talks about staying and even talks about future things that involve our family. its all very confusing. And while you were right in saying that she's on to OM2 in an EA, from the messages I saw it was more him than her. Though she admitted she could have told him to knock it off and did it.
She firmly has one foot in and one foot out of the marriage. And she's not your typical WW. She's different abd responds differently to different tactics. Do i have to tread carefully.
she's not your typical WW. She's different abd responds differently to different tactics. Do i have to tread carefully.
That is what I am trying to get you tell us, Steve, how is she not the typical WW?
she's not your typical WW. She's different abd responds differently to different tactics. Do i have to tread carefully.
That is what I am trying to get you tell us, Steve, how is she not the typical WW?
In talking to her this morning she said she is resigned to staying in the marriage. That is what I mean. I'd say on a scale from 1 to 10 in her waywardness she is at maybe a 5? The OM2 seems less of an issue as time goes on, and she is making strides to try to heal things between us. Just doesn't seem typical of what I read here from other WW.
Admittedly part of it might be cake eating? IDK.
I am going to start the pull back today and see what happens.
Thank you sandi. I guess my situation is different in that my wife isn't doing anything to leave. Routinely talks about staying and even talks about future things that involve our family. its all very confusing. And while you were right in saying that she's on to OM2 in an EA, from the messages I saw it was more him than her. Though she admitted she could have told him to knock it off and did it.
She firmly has one foot in and one foot out of the marriage. And she's not your typical WW. She's different abd responds differently to different tactics. Do i have to tread carefully.
Frankly, this doesnt sound that unique. To me, it sounds less like 'one foot in' and more like 'one foot remaining'. One phrase Ive heard here is that a monkey doesnt leave a branch it's holding until it has another one to swing to. That sounds like your W to me from what you describe. Most of the Ws here have already found the next branch and have let go; yours seems to be looking but isnt making any indications of holding on to the one she has for the long haul. I mean, she knows and can see how much distress this singing app has brought to the marriage, and yet, it's so important to her that she cant let it go?
Im not saying you need to kick her out or go to LRT. I am saying that you need to start with "the 37" and really take them to heart. You need to BE the most attractive option.
Thank you sandi. I guess my situation is different in that my wife isn't doing anything to leave. Routinely talks about staying and even talks about future things that involve our family. its all very confusing. And while you were right in saying that she's on to OM2 in an EA, from the messages I saw it was more him than her. Though she admitted she could have told him to knock it off and did it.
She firmly has one foot in and one foot out of the marriage. And she's not your typical WW. She's different abd responds differently to different tactics. Do i have to tread carefully.
Frankly, this doesnt sound that unique. To me, it sounds less like 'one foot in' and more like 'one foot remaining'. One phrase Ive heard here is that a monkey doesnt leave a branch it's holding until it has another one to swing to. That sounds like your W to me from what you describe. Most of the Ws here have already found the next branch and have let go; yours seems to be looking but isnt making any indications of holding on to the one she has for the long haul. I mean, she knows and can see how much distress this singing app has brought to the marriage, and yet, it's so important to her that she cant let it go?
Im not saying you need to kick her out or go to LRT. I am saying that you need to start with "the 37" and really take them to heart. You need to BE the most attractive option.
Thanks, I agree with everything you say. I've even talked to her about this. She claims that she wants no real relationship with anyone. That the "flirting" online she has engaged in recently is more just fulfilling a need to flirt without the pressure or expectation of it going any further since she has chosen to engage in that with these guys that live so far away. When I pointed out that they didn't have two nickels to rub together and therefore are in no position to be a "branch to support her". She quickly came back with that she isn't looking for anyone to take care of her. That getting her own job and getting her own apartment is how she is going to take care of herself. Again, she is taking no action towards doing any of that.
So yes she is WW, but not in the same way so many others here seem to be dealing with. Maybe it was because I caught it early? (As I've stated in earlier posts in this thread.) Maybe if I had remained oblivious I would have been slammed in the face with the reality that she had found another branch to jump too.
We've had discussions about the app in the last few days. The thing is that it does make her happy to sing, and I can't really tell her I want her to be happy and not want her to use the app. She claims that her time spent on the app is 95% just singing, and she can handle the 5% that is the social side without crossing any lines. However, I need to move into the IDC territory on this. As you say, instead of trying to root out all of her other choices, just make myself the best choice I can be.
You mention the 37? I haven't seen that reference before. Can you point me to a reference for that?
Operation Detachment begins today.
Never mind, I see it. Sandi's 37 rules. Thanks.
Thanks, I agree with everything you say. I've even talked to her about this. She claims that she wants no real relationship with anyone.
Maybe start with the rule about "not believing anything she says"...
It isnt really about OM. Its about the needs that she is looking to get filled. Somehow, she is in a position where going on this app for some sort of validation. Dont take that she isnt looking for a new relationship to mean that she is invested in yours.
That the "flirting" online she has engaged in recently is more just fulfilling a need to flirt without the pressure or expectation of it going any further since she has chosen to engage in that with these guys that live so far away.
And thats.....somehow....OK? I mean,are you ok that your wife hangs out for hours a day on a phone app chatting with who knows how many other people?
When I pointed out that they didn't have two nickels to rub together and therefore are in no position to be a "branch to support her". She quickly came back with that she isn't looking for anyone to take care of her. That getting her own job and getting her own apartment is how she is going to take care of herself. Again, she is taking no action towards doing any of that.
Because.....shes lying? To you and herself probably. Who would want to go out and do all of those things, when she has the best of both worlds right now? Youre there as a safety net she has "resigned" herself to be with. And in the meantime, she can peruse the who knows how many other guys out there in case theres a 'better offer'. That doesnt sound like a woman that wants to be with
you. Is that a marriage youre content to live in for the rest of your life?
So yes she is WW, but not in the same way so many others here seem to be dealing with. Maybe it was because I caught it early? (As I've stated in earlier posts in this thread.) Maybe if I had remained oblivious I would have been slammed in the face with the reality that she had found another branch to jump too.
Its not that it's early. Its that she hasnt found a real OM yet. Right now, its mostly imaginary. She sounds plenty wayward to me.
We've had discussions about the app in the last few days. The thing is that it does make her happy to sing, and I can't really tell her I want her to be happy and not want her to use the app. She claims that her time spent on the app is 95% just singing, and she can handle the 5% that is the social side without crossing any lines.
Nobody "needs" to spend 5 hours singing into an app on their phone to be 'happy'. Are you serious with that? There are plenty of healthy singing outlets. Tell her to go take lessons or a class or fill your home with music. Isolating herself to sing with other people on the internet is NOT ABOUT THE SINGING. If you made her choose between you and the app, what do you think she would pick?
Good question. She gave it up for two days last week (mon and tues) and was in a deep depression.
I went and reread Sandi's 37 rules. I also read her first LBH thread with the statements about her current state of mind. I need to keep reminding myself of all of that.
I decided this morning to begin to detach. Brought my work out clothes to go to the company gym after work. Am going to GAL, stay busy. Stay alert and attentive when home but not overtly talkative or requiring her attention. All of what Sandi says to do.
Ironically, she a few minutes ago began texting me. Nonstop for several minutes. I answered her questions but tried to remain cool and detached. It was almost 2 to 1 her texts to my responses. Including a "How is your day going?" She has not asked me that in text in months!! Could she already be detecting my detachment after just one morning?!?
The hardest rule for me to follow will be:
10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
I am a lifelong IT guy and have multiple ways to check up on her even if she doesn't want me to. Any thoughts on how to best stop being obsessed with snooping/spying?
Good question. She gave it up for two days last week (mon and tues) and was in a deep depression.
Exactly. I would say the fact that there is even a question suggest to me a level of waywardness well above a 5. It also suggests it's about way more than 'singing'.
Also, one thing happened yesterday that really made me take notice.
We were in the drive thru of Arby's (okay not the best choice but we were hungry). She had ordered a small choc. milkshake, so I ordered a snack size jamocha shake. We were talking about she hates coffee or anything coffee related, and she made a "throw up" sound. I laughed and mimicked it.
She stopped, looked at me, and said: "Who are you?" I was like, "what do you mean?". She said "you went -insert throw up sound-. You haven't done that since we were dating and you were trying to impress me!" I took a page from the Madagascar penguins and just smiled and waved! (ok I didn't wave, but I did just smile and continued on without responding). This detaching and being fun and intriguing and interesting is all good stuff and really works!
The hardest rule for me to follow will be:
10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
I am a lifelong IT guy and have multiple ways to check up on her even if she doesn't want me to. Any thoughts on how to best stop being obsessed with snooping/spying?
What information have you learned from the access that you have? What is the result of any further spying?
To me, it's like touching a stove. Sometimes it takes a while to learn that it's hot.
I remember when my XW and I had shared phone records. I could go on and see every time she made a call. At some point, I discovered that she was talking to OM for hours a day on the phone. I used to check those records two or three times every day to see whether she had called him. She never agreed not to. It was just me seeing whether she was going to pick me and our marriage. And every time I saw that number it was like a dagger in my heart. She had already made the call...I wasnt going to talk to her about it...It was just me spying. The only person getting hurt from my spying was me. The only impact that the spying had was to hurt me.
Eventually, I decided that I didnt want to hurt myself anymore.
The hardest rule for me to follow will be:
10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
I am a lifelong IT guy and have multiple ways to check up on her even if she doesn't want me to. Any thoughts on how to best stop being obsessed with snooping/spying?
What information have you learned from the access that you have? What is the result of any further spying?
To me, it's like touching a stove. Sometimes it takes a while to learn that it's hot.
I remember when my XW and I had shared phone records. I could go on and see every time she made a call. At some point, I discovered that she was talking to OM for hours a day on the phone. I used to check those records two or three times every day to see whether she had called him. She never agreed not to. It was just me seeing whether she was going to pick me and our marriage. And every time I saw that number it was like a dagger in my heart. She had already made the call...I wasnt going to talk to her about it...It was just me spying. The only person getting hurt from my spying was me. The only impact that the spying had was to hurt me.
Eventually, I decided that I didnt want to hurt myself anymore.
I totally get that. And agree. Yet I still have a compulsion to do it! I need techniques to redirect myself whenever I want to go spy/snoop. I don't do it every time. Maybe once out of every 10 thoughts to do so, in whatever capacity I have to do it (which is several different avenues). I am closing those capacities over time, but when that 10th time strikes it is so hard not to do. Even if it just a demand for her to unlock her phone and hand it to me. I KNOW I KNOW, pursuing tactic.
Someone please give me a technique that works, if such a technique exists.
Someone please give me a technique that works, if such a technique exists.
What are you going to learn that you dont already know? How will you use any information you get?
My advice, stick a rubber band on your wrist. Every time you go to actually spy, snap it. Thatll break your habit rull quick.
Amoafwl I like it. Maybe I should invest in a taser!
So one of the things i changed a while ago was not saying "I love you" first. However she still says it a lot. In the traditional times (hanging up, going to bed, leaving, and arriving).
Should i say it back or not?
Your WW is not exceptional or unusual to a typical wayward. I think you are having a lot of trouble accepting it. There have been many H's who would say the same thing about their WW, but they were in denial about it. Understandably, it is not easy to face.
As an observer, the description you have written out about how she likes and wants to continue the flirtation and connecting with other men......paints her as a spoiled child and you as the enabling parent. The behavior she is engaging everyday is not appropriate for a married woman. You can down play it all you want, and cover with excuses of how she loves to sing.........but in your heart, you know this is wrong. Why can't she sing along with CD's or join the church choir? Why does it have to include another man, and sexual flirtation? I'll tell you why, b/c the karaoke app is nothing more than a vehicle to hooking up with other men. I know, b/c I basically did the same thing.
She is playing you, and you are helping her by buying into the deceit. Her finding men who are long distant, will not stop the decay it's causing in the MR.
Do you think your W would choose a phone app over her M? Sounds crazy, doesn't it? But she will choose the app over you. If you don't believe me, just tell her you want her to stop, or to choose.......and you'll see how serious this has become. Here's the cold facts. It doesn't stop at flirting.
Are you suggesting that i give her that ultimatum? Or do I just do the detach and 180?
Day 2 of detachment and 180. and I'm already getting the "is everything ok" question. I say in a happy smiley way, "no, everything is fine. "
I'm amazed how quickly it has started to be noticed. I'm really not doing much different except not reacting to her emotions and comments. And not initiating any contact both verbal and physical.
I should have said I get the "is everything ok" or "is something wrong" questions.
Are you suggesting that i give her that ultimatum? Or do I just do the detach and 180?
I am sure she is not. She is saying that your wife will likely choose the app over you. Which would put her over a '5' on the wayward scale, dont you think?
Are you suggesting that i give her that ultimatum? Or do I just do the detach and 180?
I am sure she is not. She is saying that your wife will likely choose the app over you. Which would put her over a '5' on the wayward scale, dont you think?
Ok, I see that now. I am guessing she might would give up the app but be miserable and it would push her into other things (and towards other people).
I am not sure. Like I said she definitely seems to be stuck right in the middle. Not quite wanting out enough to do anything about it, but not quite wanting to stay enough to work on things fully. Maybe she is closer to a 7 and 8 and I am just in denial. I know I wanted to hang on to the "girl I married" and sandi2's list for the LBH really drove home the point that that girl no longer exists.
One thing I can suggest to all in similar situations as mine: GET A FRIEND THAT YOU CAN TRUST AND THAT YOU CAN LEAN ON.
I cannot stress this enough.
This morning I was struggling with wanting to call my wife. I was spiraling emotionally for some reason after having another strong morning of detachment. Luckily I have a good friend that knows my situation. I texted him and he immediately called me to work through my emotions. (This after I said a fervent prayer for help by the way!)
Having support is critical to sticking to LRT, GAL, and detachment. Do not try to do it all on your own. Come here and post. If you are God fearing, pray. If you have a friend that you can trust, confide and ask for support. I do not see how anyone can be successful in this otherwise.
Steve, I went through the compulsion of snooping. I saw things that hurt me. I kept looking and saw more things that hurt. In the end, I was torturing myself, but it took me a while to see that.
I eventually reached a point where I was tired of the self-inflicted pain. I realized I needed to respect myself enough to stop doing it. I went cold turkey, at a time when it would have been the easiest. I constantly told myself I was better than that, and better than the lowly cheater she'd become.
Snooping never feels good. You always feel worse after doing it. There's nothing good that can come from it.
Treat yourself better.
Holding thanks. I guess one way I've been looking at it is through the lens of "believe nothing they say and half of what they do". Snooping let's me see the 1/2 of what she is doing that is too be believed. I know sandi2's rule is not to do it, but that is more from the perspective you gave. After all, can you say you really detached if you still care about what she does?
But then there is the side for using what you find as a way of getting out of denial. I've flirted with denial for the last 2 months. "This isn't her." "She isn't like this." "She is just going through something/a MLC." "It is the antidepressants." Etc.
Seeing her activity upfront and personal lets me say "No this is who she is!" People are how they behave. So that knowledge helps stamp the LBS out of the fog of denial.
But you are right, it really benefits no one. You know the WW's heart is elsewhere. Whether that is in a singing app, OM, porn, wanting to live the GGW lifestyle, etc, it doesn't really matter. All of that are symptoms of a deeper problem of the heart.
Steve, be careful of trying to justify things to yourself (been there, done that).
When you snoop, you may see details you didn't know. But like you said, you already know where her heart is. The details don't matter, do they?
My snooping may have actually hurt things in my sitch, since what I found out made me angry. That in turn affected my behavior towards my W. I wasn't able to detach "lovingly", and instead did it in a cold way.
Funny you mention anger. As i get deeper into the emituinal detachment i can feel my anger getting worse. Is that normal?
Anger is one of the stages of grief, which you are going through. It's normal to feel some anger.
I'd imagine your anger should actually lessen if you're detaching properly.
I'll admit I'm the last person here who should give you advice on managing anger. Not that I was ever abusive to the XW in any way. It was just a phase I was stuck in for far too long. Still, some things that helped with my anger were exercising, going to IC, and (my favorite) yelling when I was alone. GAL was good for keeping my mind off things, but it never really helped me address the anger.
Why is emotional detachment so hard?! Instinctively took her hand in the store tonight. Immediately regretted it. Argh.
Thanks Holding. With the detaching i could really feel my anger towards her start to resurface. Need to keep it in check.
Steve,
I'm hoping your sitch gets better, and wish I had advice to give. But as you know, I'm lost in my own sitch...
I'll be thinking and praying for you, buddy...
Steve,
Its natural that the anger comes forward. Learn to allow it too come and find a constructive way to release that energy. I yelled and punched my steerimg wheel. I went on long walks and did intense workouts. I sat in the sauna for 30 mins. I let the anger come and I let the anger go. Anger is part of the process. Don't try to smother it, it will only fester and become rage if you let it sit to long. You don't want rage because rage is uncontrollable and leads to a lot of trouble.
Anger also don't allow you too see your Sitch objectively. Pay attention to your W actions. Anger will keep you in a pessimistic state and make you overlook key signs your W might be presenting to you.
Let the process work for you.
Onward and forward
So I caved and did some light snooping today.
I know. SHouldn't have. Went to her desktop PC and checked the browser history. She is still visiting match.com. Don't know if she is messaging anybody or not, but it was a) not surprising b) disappointing.
I CAN'T CONTROL HER. I CAN'T CONTROL HER. I CAN'T CONTROL HER.
I need to remember that. I need to remember she will only change if SHE wants to. And it may never happen.
On another note, since I pulled back emotionally (despite the snooping) she has stopped initiating the "I love yous". Not sure how to take that, but it was interesting. She did give me a kiss goodnight last night, and a kiss goodbye this morning. But no ILY. She also asked me again this morning if everything was ok.
Health wise: I am having pretty bad chest pains this morning. No other symptoms though (no dizziness, etc). You guys that have been through it, are stress induced chest pains just part of the ordeal?
They were pretty bad earlier, now more of just a dull ache.
At urgent care. I had the flu 2 weeks ago and Im thinking that this nagging cough turned into pneumonia or bronchitis.
Take care of yourself, Steve. I hope everything is ok and it's nothing serious.
I did occasionally get some random chest pains. I think it was just the stress, or possibly a mild panic attack. It's your body's way of saying you're putting yourself through too much. Listen to your body.
So I caved and did some light snooping today.
I know. SHouldn't have. Went to her desktop PC and checked the browser history. She is still visiting match.com. Don't know if she is messaging anybody or not, but it was a) not surprising b) disappointing.
I CAN'T CONTROL HER. I CAN'T CONTROL HER. I CAN'T CONTROL HER.
I need to remember that. I need to remember she will only change if SHE wants to. And it may never happen.
On another note, since I pulled back emotionally (despite the snooping) she has stopped initiating the "I love yous". Not sure how to take that, but it was interesting. She did give me a kiss goodnight last night, and a kiss goodbye this morning. But no ILY. She also asked me again this morning if everything was ok.
Health wise: I am having pretty bad chest pains this morning. No other symptoms though (no dizziness, etc). You guys that have been through it, are stress induced chest pains just part of the ordeal?
They were pretty bad earlier, now more of just a dull ache.
Steve - what are you doing for GAL?
Joining gym. Reconnected with an old friend and we go to the gun range regularly.
So far that's it.
Steve,
I had chest pains, last summer and fall. I pretty sure they were stressed induced. I think that is part of the process.
If you feel you are being cold she can as well. Remember to loving detach. If she tells you I love you first, it won't hurt to say it back. You just don't be the one running after her to tell her. That was a very hard concept for me to pick up. I'm still working on being loving when I get upset. But when you work through it, you will feel and know the difference and so will your W.
Don't worry about the match.com search. It's ok to snoop to check progress, when you get obsessive, is the problem.
Onward and forward
Joining gym. Reconnected with an old friend and we go to the gun range regularly.
So far that's it.
I am worried that you are going to drive yourself into the ground trying to 'unlock' the mystery of your situation. I was just like you when I started here. I thought that my XW was a puzzle to solve. That if I just did or said the right things in the right order and acted in just the right way....that voila...she would come to her senses and choose me.
Unfortunately, it doesnt really work that way. She, just like your W, had her own road to travel down. And any brainpower you spend trying to manipulate or predict that road is wasted. Truly the best thing you can do is let her walk her way and focus on your own road.
With that said, I would turn your focus towards your GAL. And not just hanging out with your friends and shooting the [censored]. I mean going out and doing NEW things and meeting NEW people. Rebuilding your 'swagger' is so difficult and yet so critical at this stage. Obsessing about every little detail in the sitch is exhausting and self-defeating.
Joining gym. Reconnected with an old friend and we go to the gun range regularly.
So far that's it.
I am worried that you are going to drive yourself into the ground trying to 'unlock' the mystery of your situation. I was just like you when I started here. I thought that my XW was a puzzle to solve. That if I just did or said the right things in the right order and acted in just the right way....that voila...she would come to her senses and choose me.
Unfortunately, it doesnt really work that way. She, just like your W, had her own road to travel down. And any brainpower you spend trying to manipulate or predict that road is wasted. Truly the best thing you can do is let her walk her way and focus on your own road.
With that said, I would turn your focus towards your GAL. And not just hanging out with your friends and shooting the [censored]. I mean going out and doing NEW things and meeting NEW people. Rebuilding your 'swagger' is so difficult and yet so critical at this stage. Obsessing about every little detail in the sitch is exhausting and self-defeating.
I agree completely...
As I caught up on your sitch, I keep coming back to the events in 2005, in which she supposedly had a EA...
What did reconciliation look like then ??
And I may be off base here, but I get this sense that the balance between the two of you became more of a parent/child relationship, or at least was starting down that road...
That maybe YOU had a hard time forgiving her, and that it has always been something that has driven a thorn between you and her.
Steve, I see a lot of judgement being passed onto her, from you...
Has that always been an issue ??
I also see a lot of you trying to fix her issues for her...
Have you always done that ??
I see a lot of you doing "new" things( or re-connections at least), hoping that she will see the "new" you and have a change of heart.
So maybe spend more time trying to identify and narrow down YOUR behavioral patterns, rather than focus on her patterns...
In the end, it is a much more beneficial way to spend your time...
Nothing that you say or do will make too much of a difference.. right now...
Yet everything that you say or do will make a difference ...
You are never gonna talk your way out of something that you acted your way into....
So what about Steve ??
Who is he ???
We were completely past 2005. Until this new stuff happened. My wife counseled other wives over the years since 2005 on how to avoid the EA/PA trap. "Don't invest in someone other than your spouse. Emotionally or otherwise. Keep your focus on your spouse and marriage."
In fact, she just gave this advice to someone a little more than a year ago.
Yet here we are today.
I think the biggest problem was her discovery of the singing app. Once that world was opened to her, and the flood of compliments from males started flooding in, she became addicted to it. Craved it. Wanted the attention. The first one that reached out to her on an emotional level she globbed onto. Also this was all part of her bigger MLC (which I am still convinced she is dealing with). Both of the OM have been 8 and 11 years younger than her. The guys I found her messaging on match.com were all even younger than that!
But I go back to Sandi2's wake up statements to the LBH. She is not the same girl I married. And in fact she isn't the same girl I was married to 6 months ago. This is a profound change in her and I don't expect it will ever change back.
Yes I've always been a bit of a rescuer for her. A fixer. She'd make a mess I'd clean it up. I realize now that it healthy. That she needed to learn to clean up after herself.
I know the parent-child thing has come before. And yes there were times I was parental to her. I think part of that is because of her problems with both her real father and her step-father. I think she was looking for a bit of a father figure (though I am actually younger than she is). But I am responsible, stable, reliable. All the things she didn't see in her "fathers".
Anyway, as time is going on I am giving up hope that this will be fixed. I am starting to come to the realization that I need to prepare myself for the worst. The good news is that GAL really isn't an issue for me. I've had a life outside of the marriage. I am into competition archery and go to tournaments. I am an avid hunter and spend most of Sept-Nov (and even into Dec) up at the hunting property. GAL is really an issue for me.
Also, I have been physically detached in the marriage for so long, that detachment may not work. Yes I am trying now to emotionally detach (IE not react to her words and deeds), and she is taking notice. (Asked me again today if anything was wrong.)
Every situation is unique. I appreciate the perspectives. I think the only thing that will really get her attention at this point is for met to file for D. But I will give her ample time to come around before I do that. For the MR's sake as well as the sake of my daughter.
I want to be able to look my daughter in the eye and tell her I did everything I could to save things.
As far as who Steve is, my identity is very strong. That really isn't an issue. I know a few dozen postings on a message board don't necessarily tell that story, but trust me. I am not the one with a crisis of identity. Can I make improvements? Of course.
Should read that rescuing and fixing for her wasn't healthy. Sorry for the typo.
You can answer if you like, the answers aren't for me anyway, they are for you...
Yes I've always been a bit of a rescuer for her. A fixer. She'd make a mess I'd clean it up. I realize now that it isn't healthy. That she needed to learn to clean up after herself.
So maybe think about why you were a fixer..
Other than the chivalry, primal male tendencies to provide and fix...
Why were you like that ?
How do you think that she perceived that ??
I know the parent-child thing has come before. And yes there were times I was parental to her. I think part of that is because of her problems with both her real father and her step-father. I think she was looking for a bit of a father figure (though I am actually younger than she is). But I am responsible, stable, reliable. All the things she didn't see in her "fathers".
Why would you think that she wanted a father figure, in the form of a husband ??
Anyway, as time is going on I am giving up hope that this will be fixed. I am starting to come to the realization that I need to prepare myself for the worst. The good news is that GAL really isn't an issue for me. I've had a life outside of the marriage. I am into competition archery and go to tournaments. I am an avid hunter and spend most of Sept-Nov (and even into Dec) up at the hunting property. GAL is really an issue for me.
Archery...check
Hunter....check
So am I...
Doesn't mean that I am any less for the other things in my life...
Given the choice of a happy, healthy marriage and those activities...
Which one would you CHOOSE ??
Hope is yours..
It isn't up to anyone else to either provide that or strip that away from you...
Especially not any "well wishing" friends.
A true friend would never tell you to move on, or just get over her...
A true friend would look you in the eye and ask you what you need from them...
What does your gut tell you ??
Also, I have been physically detached in the marriage for so long, that detachment may not work. Yes I am trying now to emotionally detach (IE not react to her words and deeds), and she is taking notice. (Asked me again today if anything was wrong.)
Why were you detached ??
That one leaves me curious....
Every situation is unique. I appreciate the perspectives. I think the only thing that will really get her attention at this point is for met to file for D. But I will give her ample time to come around before I do that. For the MR's sake as well as the sake of my daughter.
OR...
You get her attention by backing away...following the 37 rules. Being different because you ARE different..
Sounds like some things in a book by MWD...
I want to be able to look my daughter in the eye and tell her I did everything I could to save things.
Are you there ?
After a few months, you are there ???
As far as who Steve is, my identity is very strong. That really isn't an issue. I know a few dozen postings on a message board don't necessarily tell that story, but trust me. I am not the one with a crisis of identity. Can I make improvements? Of course.
I'm not gonna say too much about this, other than...
I always question a person that feels the need to say "trust me"...
Not saying that you are that guy...
However...
What improvements would YOU like to see within yourself ?
You are never gonna talk your way out of something that you acted your way into....
So what about Steve ??
Who is he ???
Mach - glad to see you posting again.
Steve you have a great DB mind giving you advice.
Pay attention man!
Mach 1 thanks. I will answer your questions later. Just an update, I was diagnosed with a sinus infection, the drainage causing lunch inflammation. On antibiotic, some stronger cough med (prescription) and rest and fluids.
I am really tired this afternoon after taking the antibiotics (z pack).
Are you suggesting that i give her that ultimatum? Or do I just do the detach and 180?
No, I am
not suggesting you give her an ultimatum.
But you know, setting boundaries and giving ultimatums are not the same.
This is a profound change in her and I don't expect it will ever change back.
Why? Look, you have reason to be discouraged, but you don't have to be defeated. As I told you earlier, I was doing much of the same behavior as your W (probably worse). I joined the board in the summer of 2007 and I am still here. Do you know why I hang around this board? When I joined I was still in an affair, but I had reached a point I wanted someone to help me sort things out. I was blessed to have the right people mentor me. I give this board a lot of credit for steering me in the right direction. My M was saved, and I am here today telling you that your M can be saved too. If I didn't believe it, I would not spend my time trying to help you.
I don't hold back much, and maybe I speak too bluntly, but I do that to get you to open your eyes and so you'll start putting your energy toward what works. I don't do it to make you give up. You said it has been the past six months she has changed the most. To me, that alone has hope.
Yes I've always been a bit of a rescuer for her. A fixer. She'd make a mess I'd clean it up. I realize now that it healthy. That she needed to learn to clean up after herself.
Okay, so start here ^^^^^^^. We learn to detach means that we stop being the rescuer. Leave her mess for her to clean up. Don't make the mistake of thinking that spoiling her rotten is showing her how much you love her. It only makes her a rotten! It's time you stop being a father to her.
Also, I have been physically detached in the marriage for so long, that detachment may not work. Yes I am trying now to emotionally detach (IE not react to her words and deeds), and she is taking notice. (Asked me again today if anything was wrong.)
You may be right about you being too detached physically. If she was left alone too much, then that may be why she started the singing stuff. And her ego was apparently wanting to be fed, too. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it was b/c you ignored her. Some people can't get enough attention. Maybe you can enlighten us a little more about your situation.
Hi sandi,
I hate to threadjack, but I was wondering if you could provide some insight into my situation:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2778202&page=3Thank you!
Why were you like that ?
How do you think that she perceived that ??
I guess I thought that is how I showed her I loved her. I think she perceived it as me loving her. She goes back to the times that I rescued her and says "you were awesome". But now I see looking back why this wasn't healthy. Support is one thing. Taking over and not letting her face her failures just made her see me not as a mate, but a mercenary.
Why would you think that she wanted a father figure, in the form of a husband ??
I don't necessarily think she wanted a father figure consciously. I think her subconscious was looking for one since she missed that for the entirety of her life.
Archery...check
Hunter....check
So am I...
Doesn't mean that I am any less for the other things in my life...
Given the choice of a happy, healthy marriage and those activities...
Which one would you CHOOSE ??
Happy, healthy marriage, no question. I am willing to give up all else except my faith in God and His Son for that.
Hope is yours..
It isn't up to anyone else to either provide that or strip that away from you...
Especially not any "well wishing" friends.
A true friend would never tell you to move on, or just get over her...
A true friend would look you in the eye and ask you what you need from them...
What does your gut tell you ??
My gut tells me I may not have the patience or longsuffering to wait for her. Though she continues to reluctantly lean toward staying and working on the MR, she still has her fantasy of a new life at 50yo. (she turns 50 next month). Having her own place, etc. I think as I've improved things here at home (and they have been 10 times better since BD) she has started let go of that a bit, but changing your mind is hard to do. She isn't quite ready to buckle in for the long haul yet.
Why were you detached ??
That one leaves me curious....
I had a lot of anger, resentment and bitterness because of the lack of sexual intimacy that started right after the wedding. The only time she really wanted to engage in sex was when she was trying to get pregnant. For the rest of the time I could count on both hands the times she really seemed to be into sex. The rest of the time it was a duty she performed like housework when she agreed to even have it. Eventually I quit trying and withdrew.
Every situation is unique. I appreciate the perspectives. I think the only thing that will really get her attention at this point is for met to file for D. But I will give her ample time to come around before I do that. For the MR's sake as well as the sake of my daughter.
OR...
You get her attention by backing away...following the 37 rules. Being different because you ARE different..
Sounds like some things in a book by MWD...
Agreed, and I am implementing those. As for the book, I can't find the book locally, it isn't available in digital form, and I can't order it because she will be the one to receive the package (she stays at home). I have read everything MWD has put online and I have even watched a lot of her videos. So I am on board with her methods.
I want to be able to look my daughter in the eye and tell her I did everything I could to save things.
Are you there ?
After a few months, you are there ???
It has only been 2 months. No I am not there. I have given her a year (I haven't told her that). If she isn't 100% committed to the marriage by the BD anniversary date I will file for D.
As far as who Steve is, my identity is very strong. That really isn't an issue. I know a few dozen postings on a message board don't necessarily tell that story, but trust me. I am not the one with a crisis of identity. Can I make improvements? Of course.
I'm not gonna say too much about this, other than...
I always question a person that feels the need to say "trust me"...
Not saying that you are that guy...
However...
What improvements would YOU like to see within yourself ?
I have already made a lot of the improvements. I am physically present in the home, not isolating myself into a room away from the family the way I was. I am not going to spend copious amounts of time up at the hunting property like I did. I am present, happy, upbeat, positive in my interactions with her. That is a 180 in and of itself. She is a terrible housekeeper especially spending the time she has been spending on her singing app. I just let it roll off my back now, or if it bothers me I happily do it (unlike the way I would do it in the past) myself.
I guess mostly I want those changes to be permanent. I am also going to start IC. We are in MC right now but she is talking about quitting. I am actually for her not continuing since her heart isn't really in it. I think I will get more out of IC, it will help me process all of this better and deal with it better.
This is a profound change in her and I don't expect it will ever change back.
Why? Look, you have reason to be discouraged, but you don't have to be defeated. As I told you earlier, I was doing much of the same behavior as your W (probably worse). I joined the board in the summer of 2007 and I am still here. Do you know why I hang around this board? When I joined I was still in an affair, but I had reached a point I wanted someone to help me sort things out. I was blessed to have the right people mentor me. I give this board a lot of credit for steering me in the right direction. My M was saved, and I am here today telling you that your M can be saved too. If I didn't believe it, I would not spend my time trying to help you.
I don't hold back much, and maybe I speak too bluntly, but I do that to get you to open your eyes and so you'll start putting your energy toward what works. I don't do it to make you give up. You said it has been the past six months she has changed the most. To me, that alone has hope.
Not sure I understand? Can you tell me why the fact that she has changed so much so recently lends hope?
Also, thank you so much sandi! You do not how much your help means to me. To have someone that has walked in similar shoes as my WW is huge.
]Yes I've always been a bit of a rescuer for her. A fixer. She'd make a mess I'd clean it up. I realize now that it healthy. That she needed to learn to clean up after herself.
Okay, so start here ^^^^^^^. We learn to detach means that we stop being the rescuer. Leave her mess for her to clean up. Don't make the mistake of thinking that spoiling her rotten is showing her how much you love her. It only makes her a rotten! It's time you stop being a father to her.
[/quote]
I have done this more than anything else. I have stop trying to parent her. Sometimes she slips back and starts to act like my child. I've been stopping her and telling her she is a grown woman can make her own decisions. She has actually responded very well to that.
Also, I have been physically detached in the marriage for so long, that detachment may not work. Yes I am trying now to emotionally detach (IE not react to her words and deeds), and she is taking notice. (Asked me again today if anything was wrong.)
You may be right about you being too detached physically. If she was left alone too much, then that may be why she started the singing stuff. And her ego was apparently wanting to be fed, too. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it was b/c you ignored her. Some people can't get enough attention. Maybe you can enlighten us a little more about your situation.
I told a little above to Mach1.
I am not sure how much more to add. As always you are astute. I am not suggesting that my withdrawal is why she went whole hog with the singing app. She may have found it even if I was attentive and still become addicted to it and the "high" that it gives her. What I was really getting at is that I do have a fear that detaching may not work in my case because I was so distant before BD day. That is why I suggest the only real dose of reality I can give her is to file for D.
Otherwise she will continue to cake eat all day long, making no real effort to move forward on her exit strategy NOR on trying to improve the MR. That is unacceptable to me. Status quo is not an option I am willing to live with long term. I am more than happy to let her try to figure her stuff out, but it can't go on indefinitely. Any suggestions on how long I should give her? 1 year is what a lot of the marriage fix experts suggest, (some say at least a year). But I am open to other suggestions.
I guess I thought that is how I showed her I loved her. I think she perceived it as me loving her. She goes back to the times that I rescued her and says "you were awesome". But now I see looking back why this wasn't healthy. Support is one thing. Taking over and not letting her face her failures just made her see me not as a mate, but a mercenary.
I don't necessarily think she wanted a father figure consciously. I think her subconscious was looking for one since she missed that for the entirety of her life.
I'm gonna sum up my thoughts on these two together...
You probably were awesome TO her....but maybe not awesome FOR her..
Mostly it was about YOUR plan to fix HER problems..
At first, it's awesome to not have to deal with stuff, then it becomes mindless for them. After a while, it can be viewed as controlling and manipulative (because the end result seems selfish to them ).
Essentially, what starts innocently, ends with feelings of depleted self-worth, and questioning the ability to make even the easiest of decisions.
I'm fairly sure that would never be your intention...just a glimpse toward the other side...
Happy, healthy marriage, no question. I am willing to give up all else except my faith in God and His Son for that.
Would you walk through hell with gasoline underoos on, if you knew that she would be waiting for you on the other side ?
And the tricky part is...
Would you make that same walk if you didn't know that she would be there ???
My gut tells me I may not have the patience or longsuffering to wait for her. Though she continues to reluctantly lean toward staying and working on the MR, she still has her fantasy of a new life at 50yo. (she turns 50 next month). Having her own place, etc. I think as I've improved things here at home (and they have been 10 times better since BD) she has started let go of that a bit, but changing your mind is hard to do. She isn't quite ready to buckle in for the long haul yet.
Well, she married you, said that she loved you, and promised forever at one time...
And now that is different..
Soooo...
She IS capable of changing her mind...
Step back away from the merry-go-round for a bit, and let this spin before you decide what you can or cannot do...
I had a lot of anger, resentment and bitterness because of the lack of sexual intimacy that started right after the wedding. The only time she really wanted to engage in sex was when she was trying to get pregnant. For the rest of the time I could count on both hands the times she really seemed to be into sex. The rest of the time it was a duty she performed like housework when she agreed to even have it. Eventually I quit trying and withdrew.
So what was going on in your head to cause these feelings ?
It's kinda unfair to lay all of that at her feet.
You cannot hold her accountable for your actions with that...
Dig deeper into the "whys" of your actions....
Agreed, and I am implementing those. As for the book, I can't find the book locally, it isn't available in digital form, and I can't order it because she will be the one to receive the package (she stays at home). I have read everything MWD has put online and I have even watched a lot of her videos. So I am on board with her methods.
Can't ?
Or it's easier to not ?
Fair question there.
If you really wanted it, then there are neighbor addresses, work addresses, friend addresses....
I read my first copy from the Library...
It has only been 2 months. No I am not there. I have given her a year (I haven't told her that). If she isn't 100% committed to the marriage by the BD anniversary date I will file for D.
Please don't timeline this...
Things will move at their own pace.
They will either work out, or they won't...
The only thing that I will say, is that I gave myself 2 years (about a month for every year we were together), before I would allow myself to make an accurate decision on my future.
Mach1, you just proved yourself to me. What you described about my fixing/ rescuing and the ultimate results of that are spot on!! on BD she said exactly what you described in almost the exact same terms.
On your question and comments about my resentment at the lack of sex, yes i agree. It was my issue and i didn't handle it well. That's all on me.
If she is open to affection, should i initiate? I think she is noticing my not being affectionate.
She started initiating ILYs again today. And gives me a kiss goonight and goodbye in the morning.
So I broke a rule this morning. Initiated a R talk with her.
I said that every time she talks about staying she says it makes her sad, but whenever she talks about leaving she is excited and happy. She agreed.
I then said "I think that's your answer."
I know you are all thinking, "WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?!" LOL
Well every time she detects I am pushing her to leave she starts saying all of the reasons she should stay. And even that she wants to stay.
Her response was: "Things are starting to balance out. When I think about staying it doesn't seem so sad. And when I thinking of leaving it doesn't feel so happy."
I kind of blew that off. "Believe nothing she says and only 1/2 of what she does."
I responded with a "Yeah but staying is still framed in terms of level of sadness, and leaving in terms of level of happiness."
I left it at that.
Back to detachment.
Understand that nothing you say or do is going to speed up or change her crisis.
You can slow it down by not detaching, begging, pleading and bargaining.
That is part of the reason you are given the standard advice.
Stick with this
So I broke a rule this morning. Initiated a R talk with her.
I said that every time she talks about staying she says it makes her sad, but whenever she talks about leaving she is excited and happy. She agreed.
I then said "I think that's your answer."
I know you are all thinking, "WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?!" LOL
Well every time she detects I am pushing her to leave she starts saying all of the reasons she should stay. And even that she wants to stay.
Her response was: "Things are starting to balance out. When I think about staying it doesn't seem so sad. And when I thinking of leaving it doesn't feel so happy."
I kind of blew that off. "Believe nothing she says and only 1/2 of what she does."
I responded with a "Yeah but staying is still framed in terms of level of sadness, and leaving in terms of level of happiness."
I left it at that.
Back to detachment.
May have been more than 1 rule....
I said this yesterday to you..
And while you might understand the concept, the actions haven't changed ...
You passed a perfect chance to validate, and listen to her...
You still made it about YOU...
You still passed judgement because of that..
You laid a ton of guilt on her lap...
You ARE still trying to control her ans the situation...
If her answer wasn't the one that you wanted...then it was wrong....
Still....she sees this as your fix, for her problems...
How could you have handled this differently ???
How could you have shown (your actions) her how much you have changed ??
To her....it is more of the same from you...
And the reason that R talks (temp checking) is discouraged....
You are so right Mach1.
Everything you say is spot on.
What I could have done differently is NOT started the conversation to begin with. I shouldn't have. And I am bummed that I did now.
Again, my action should have been to not have brought it up. It was dumb, unproductive, needy, temp checking, not detached. Everything it shouldn't have been.
Get back on the horse cowboy...
She bucked you ...
Learn from it...
Get back on the horse cowboy...
She bucked you ...
Learn from it...
Thanks Mach1. Can you suggest techniques to use when I feel the need to bring things like this up?
Thanks Mach1. Can you suggest techniques to use when I feel the need to bring things like this up?
A butter knife in an electrical socket works....
Seriously though.
I would ask myself if what I was going to ask, was going to bring me closer, or further away from my goal.
Then employ the 48 hour rule before I would speak.
Thanks Mach1. Can you suggest techniques to use when I feel the need to bring things like this up?
A butter knife in an electrical socket works....
Seriously though.
I would ask myself if what I was going to ask, was going to bring me closer, or further away from my goal.
Then employ the 48 hour rule before I would speak.
Ok, I will keep that in mind. I am way to compulsive for this stuff.
Ok, I will keep that in mind. I am way to compulsive for this stuff.
The other trick, is to be inside of your own head so much, that you aren't paying attention to what you are, or aren't getting from her..
Dig deeper into Steve, and find out why you react to different situations the way that you do.
Find out why you need to be in control..
Find out when, in the marriage that is dead now, that you turned into the Father figure...
Find out why and in what situations that you need to be the "fixer"
find out who the heck Steve really is at his core.
And I know you gave me the "Family Fued" answers already, however I highly doubt that you are only as deep as a kiddie pool..
It's hard, yet not impossible to accomplish.
Stop asking her questions that you do not want the answers to...
Stop asking her questions that you already know the answers to...
If you truly believe the DB mantra of not believing what she says....then why are you asking questions anyway ??
Stop trying to talk your way out of this...
Stop trying to fix her...
Look, she asked for this right ??
Then give it to her...
And when you do ??
Then that will pi$$ her off too...
Remove the buttons that she can push, that make YOU dance...
Because once you recognize that button, and she pushes it, then you dance ???
That is on you buddy...
Nothing that you could possibly talk about, should be "new" information to you...
Soooo...
With that ^^^
Ask yourself if it is worth it to ask questions or to initiate a relationship talk....
K ??
Sit back and enjoy your STFU smoothie on the nice sunny patio that is your head....
And let her dance around her indecision whilst you do....
Any of that make sense ???
All of makes sense. You are right I am way too emotionally vested still. You are right that I can't trust her answers anyway so why try? The only reason she is still here is because she is cake eating. So I need to figure me out, and then move forward.
I feel so low. My self-esteem is in the toilet. Ironically, I keep looking to her to save me from that.
The fixer has turned into the fixee. The saver into the one wanting to be saved. The difference is she doesn't care enough to want to fix or save me.
So I have to rely on me. Here are some things I am doing:
-Not allowing my mood to be dictated by her mood. I am actually doing this pretty well. Despite my stumble this morning.
-Staying active and busy. I can amp this up a bit and will look for opportunities to do so moving forward.
-Being attentive and present when home, but not following her around. Not trying to engage her in conversation. Not trying to get her attention. (Again, believe or not this has been going well until my slip up this morning.)
-Getting into IC. Right now we are in MC but I am trying to end that. I don't think her heart is into it. However, I feel that due to my unplugged ways prior to BD I need to tread lightly here. I got some advice to say "I am ending MC because I think it is a waste of time right now. I will be continuing with IC because a lot has happened and I need to process all of it." But I also got advice that as long as she is willing I should continue MC.
My biggest failing is what others on this board struggle with: Not reacting when she says mean or hurtful things. I need to grow a turtle shell and let it bounce off. And practice my validation language.
Any other thought Mach1? Any of the above I need to stop or tweak? Any other suggestions?
Like it's not your job to fix her, it's not her job to fix you. I've been there. I'm still there every now and then. Trying to find out what's wrong with her so I can fix this. But hey! For me it's my job tp fix peoples heads. But this is something that cannot be fixed. You and I, we need to understand and ACCEPT that. She needs to through this by herself. I'm not there yet totally. But I'm going there. Like it was written here somewhere: keep walking but don't look over your shoulder to see if she's following. Take a rest every now and then and take a peek if you see her. Then just keep walking.
Thanks petri. I guess I wish I didn't care so much. It would make letting go so much easier.
Steve.
I've been in this limbo for nearly 7 months. Having BDs along the way. It's hard. It is something that tears our heart in tiny pieces. And I found this forum maybe too late. Then again maybe not. I have no choice than to move forward. I have to sell the house that is the only home my D7 has ever had. Do I want to? Of course not. I'm in the beginning of all of this. That is something these great people remind me of! If I'm early in this so are you! Even more than me.
You will not survive this. No. You are going to fight through this. Because you can. Because you have power within you that not all have. You are here now. That shows that you are willing to something about things. Nothing will change if YOU don't change.
I feel so low. My self-esteem is in the toilet. Ironically, I keep looking to her to save me from that.
The fixer has turned into the fixee. The saver into the one wanting to be saved. The difference is she doesn't care enough to want to fix or save me.
This is what I said to you yesterday before you told me how you werent concerned with GAL as you had it all figured out.
With that said, I would turn your focus towards your GAL. And not just hanging out with your friends and shooting the [censored]. I mean going out and doing NEW things and meeting NEW people. Rebuilding your 'swagger' is so difficult and yet so critical at this stage. Obsessing about every little detail in the sitch is exhausting and self-defeating.
I would say that getting out of the house is certainly step 1. Its hard enough to get up and go anywhere when all you want to do is bury your head in your pillow and hope that this all blows over and you can wake up in that blissful ignorance of pre-BD again. I know....Ive been there.
I started by GAL by hanging out with my friends. And you know what I did while I was there? Talked about my sitch. A lot of good that did in taking my mind off of my sitch! When I started to actually feel better was when I went out and did new things. I joined a gaming group. That turned into a fantasy football league. That turned into other things and so on. Eventually I had a whole new crew of friends and acquaintances that knew nothing of my XW or my sitch.
THAT is what I want for you to experience. Thats how you can being to actually detach. It isnt a switch you can turn on or off: "Im going to detach today". Doesnt work that way. You need to be focused on other things. You need to be living such an awesome life that it is HER loss for missing out.
YOU are the prize, Steve. Not her.
Remember that.
When everyone first arrives to the board all of their focus is on getting their spouse back. In time you will stop hanging on to every word they say, you will stop analyzing everything they do and every mood they are in. Doing that is exhausting, trying to control them is exhausting as well. The quicker you can accept this and implement the quicker you will heal.
If you hang around long enough you will get to the point to where you don't really give a $hit and if they ever come back you can take it or leave it. If you put in the time and do the work you will become more focused on yourself and the progress you are making individually. You will become stronger and you will no longer view your W the same way you did before.
When I first came to the board I spent hours upon hours reading old sitch's trying to soak in as much information as I could. I came across the following sentence from an experienced vet that really helped me.
"Those who try the hardest to save their marriage have the least success"
-Being attentive and present when home, but not following her around. Not trying to engage her in conversation. Not trying to get her attention. (Again, believe or not this has been going well until my slip up this morning.)
The best way that I have seen this described is...
Aloof, yet available.
I lived 2 and a half years with an MLCer. And living on the edge of destruction every minute will drive you insane.
Aloof, yet available was my best way through...
-Getting into IC. Right now we are in MC but I am trying to end that. I don't think her heart is into it. However, I feel that due to my unplugged ways prior to BD I need to tread lightly here. I got some advice to say "I am ending MC because I think it is a waste of time right now. I will be continuing with IC because a lot has happened and I need to process all of it." But I also got advice that as long as she is willing I should continue MC.
I would like to see you find a way (new words) to phrase this. And although actions are what are important, words still hurt...
Also find a way to phrase this so that you aren't trying to fix her, control her, or in any way try to persuade her...
Kinda like....
Hey, I am wondering if the MC is working for you ? Because I feel that I would benefit more from just IC right now.
However, if you feel that you are benefiting from MC, then I will gladly continue that as well...
I would appreciate your thoughts on this...My biggest failing is what others on this board struggle with: Not reacting when she says mean or hurtful things. I need to grow a turtle shell and let it bounce off. And practice my validation language.
Validation is nothing more than listening and understanding what you have heard.
Validation is showing (actions) that she, and her thoughts, are important to you.
Validation is listening without the intent of control, judgement, blaming, or manipulation...
Steve85, you gave me so encouraging words recently. So I'd like to say to you now, it was just a slip. More important is that you are clear-minded, have a plan and are willing to follow it. So just get back on track.
Have you ever discussed your 1 year deadline with the experienced people in this forum? Which effect has your deadline on your actions and thinking?
Thank you everyone! So encouraging, and such great info.
Amo, sorry if I came across as having it all figured out. Obviously I do not! I will continue to ramp up my GAL efforts.
J9, thank you! That last quote makes so much sense. I wish I had known that before I spent $400 on a "save your marriage program" that was all about pursuit.
Thank you Mach1. Again your perspective is spot on. And thanks for holding me accountable when you see my controlling, manipulative ways.
I need to work even harder on that.
Gisela, ty as well. I found that offering advice to others helps me to focus on things I should. But as you can still I still struggle mightily. The one year deadline was suggested by another author (not MWD) that I paid for a private consultation with. She too is a DBing advocate, and even more strongly than MWD and others on this board. I may have to rethink it at some point, but until you asked it never really came up. The idea behind it is that there is an end game to her cake eating and safety net. Even though you never really verbalize the deadline.
Thanks you all are amazing people. I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't found this forum.
Before they have to use a defibrillator on Cadet...
You may wanna start a new thread.
New threads typically mean new growth and new focus...
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2779597#Post2779597