Nice guy Syndrome!

[Element]

Hi - first time posting. Going through a rough time right now as I discovered my W planning an affair with OM last week. Although we’ve been separated for 4 years, it really shook me up to come across text messages that she thinking about OM and wants to get together with him, perhaps go on trip to NYC together. I discovered this while on a family vacation with our 2 boys. A vacation where I had hoped we would reconnect and start anew … yeah right!

I know who the guy is she’s hooking up with, and to make matters worse, he’s is in a relationship and has a family of 3. It shocked me to see that my W would pursue a married man with a family, or let herself be pursued. There’s just no good that can come from that.

I’m struggling on whether or not to expose my knowledge of this, and if so how and to who. Any suggestions are welcome!!!

I’ve read DB, gone through telephone coaching, and had made some progress in getting a more amicable relationship with my W. But I now realize that I’ve been foolhardy to think my WAW intends to reconcile.

Reading through Sandi2’s posts, I totally have been guilty of “nice guy syndrome” and I have made it WAY too easy for my W to have her cake and eat it too. She’s got me playing the role of husband/father, and now has another guy to be her lover. Well, guess what? No more Mr. Nice guy!

Started with GAL strategy as I know I need it for my mental stability. Immediately she takes note of the fact that I’m not catering to her needs, asks if I’m mad at her … I just say no, I’m tired. She starts asking questions about who I’m going out with in the evenings etc. I’m definitely pulling back, although we do have the kids to co-parent. Just struggling with whether to expose her antics or not. She’s a great manipulator and doesn’t take well to people calling her out on her crap at all.


-----------------------
Married: 12 Together: 14
Me:41 W:42
S:11 S:8
Bomb dropped 2/2014
I moved out 5/2014
No formal separation
Discovered A: 1/2018

[Cadet]

Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

[Element]

Thanks Cadet. Actually feeling pretty good about GAL. Hit the gym and went for a swim this evening, and have evening plans with friends lined up. Will read through the Detachment thread you provided now.

[MoveFrwd]

I cant even imagine what it would be like to be "separated" for 4 years.

What is the separation like? How much contact do you have? Are you also dating? Is she? What is the living arrangement?

How did this vacation come about? Have there been others? Are you spending regular 'family time' together?

Also, whats the custody arrangement?

Sorry for so many questions. Im just trying to wrap my mind around the current condition to be able to actually provide some thoughts to you!

[Cadet]

Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.

[Holding]

Welcome Element.

Like Amoafwl, I'm curious about the logistics of the 4 year separation. Sounds like Chinese water torture.

For NGS, if you're interested in working on that aspect, I suggest you find an official NMMNG meeting, or an unofficial NGS support group. Being with a bunch of like-minded guys can be really helpful. Let me know if you need more info on that.

[Element]

We have 2 kids on the autism spectrum and pour a significant portion of finances into the kid’s private schooling, therefore when we physically separated, I moved in with my parents as I could not afford my own place. The kids live with her in what was the family home.

For the first several months, we tried marriage counselling, but it became clear that she felt that the counsellor was siding with me, and we ended it.

We have frequent contact, occasionally there are days with no contact. Several days a week I’ll have dinner, most weekends I’m around the house doing stuff with the kids. More often than not we engage in conversation not just about the kids, but whatever is going on. So there’s quite a bit of family time.

Vacation was to be a family getaway, and a way for her to let go of something negative that had been her life (non-marriage issue). She was saying she wanted to come back fresh from her vacation and leave the bad stuff behind.

I’m not dating. She’s not dating, or at least has never spoke about it.

[Element]

I’ve never heard of a NMMNG meeting before … interesting. I know that I’ve been too nice and that she’s taking advantage of it. In part I do it because I want to see the kids all the time, and secondly because I honestly thought that by listening to her, helping her with things around the house would help her see that I’ve changed. I believe her love languages are acts of service and words of affirmation. The more I showed this side, the more amicable she would be, she’d ask me to come over more often for dinner and such. I wrongly took this as a positive step forward in our R.

But I’m afraid that she now thinks she has me as a confident friend/husband without intimacy, and she is seeking the relationship elsewhere.

Seeing evidence of her being/planning with OM, has really shook me up … or perhaps woke me up that change needs to happen.

Question I’m struggling with is whether to reveal to her I know what she’s up to with this OM?

[MJDG]

I suffer from NGS too. That guy has got to die. If you think about it, how that worked out so far? For me not good

[Element]

My initial reaction was anger as I felt betrayed. Couldn’t sleep properly for days. When I’d think about it, I’d tightly clench my fist wanting to fight back. I needed to know a bit more about who this OM was. Found out he’s in a R. He has a kid from previous R, and his partner has kids from her previous R. So here’s this guy in at least his 2nd R, and he’s doing this. But my jaw dropped that my W would get involved with a guy that’s in a R and has a family. I’m thinking, seriously, you’re ok being a home wrecker?

My gut now is to go dark, use the LRT with the exception of the kids. What i’m Struggling with is whether to expose to her what i know. It may exacerbate things if she feels threatened that her fairytale romance is under attack. Also, part of me feels like the OM’s W deserves to know.

[Element]

Hi DBers - Any advice out there on whether or not to expose that you're aware of your W being with OM?

[Vanilla]

You have been separated for 4 years?

Then she isn't being unfaithful. It is adultery as you are not D. If it's a fault state it makes a difference.

And much as I and you don't like her dropping her knickers for a married man. Frankly it's none of your business. The only open question is OM W and whilst she deserves to know, then it's probably not your job to tell her.

I don't give advice just my opinion.

I don't know why you aren't D with a parenting Plan might be time to live your life, if like V you want to be D before dating seems like now is the time.

V

[Element]

Thanks Vanilla. I respect your opinion. Now that I’ve had more time to think about it, and talked with a friend of mine, I’m of the opinion that I just keep it to myself.

I know 4 years sounds crazy. I actually had lost track of how long its been. There’s a lot of drama constantly coming from her that she gets me swept up in. Because I’m a nice guy, I’ve been there for her all along the way thinking she would see what a mistake it is not to be together. I definitely feel different now.

The more I’ve pulled back this week, by not reaching out and having other plans, the more she has been inquisitive as to what I’m up to. And I feel better for it, much better.

[Element]

Had convo with W about having a formal separation agreement in place. She brought it up. I totally agreed with her, and did so very calmly. This threw her off a bit. She started crying. She started saying things to me like I deserve to move on with my life, deserve to be happy, to be with someone. She brought up that a couple of years ago during an argument that I told her i was moving on, was dating, therefore i can now be free to do that without having her as a burden. She also said she has not and is not seeing anyone. Starting saying that she’ll probably be alone for the rest of her life, who would want to be with her. I didnt say a word about what i knew about her trying to lure away this OM.

At any rate, i will happily put together a formal separation agreement. I expect this to be a dose of reality for her. Right now she has her cake and eats it too. Selling the house, having the kids every other week will be a total shock to her system. I fully expect major drama to come now.

[SteveLW]

Had convo with W about having a formal separation agreement in place. She brought it up. I totally agreed with her, and did so very calmly. This threw her off a bit. She started crying. She started saying things to me like I deserve to move on with my life, deserve to be happy, to be with someone. She brought up that a couple of years ago during an argument that I told her i was moving on, was dating, therefore i can now be free to do that without having her as a burden. She also said she has not and is not seeing anyone. Starting saying that she’ll probably be alone for the rest of her life, who would want to be with her. I didnt say a word about what i knew about her trying to lure away this OM.

At any rate, i will happily put together a formal separation agreement. I expect this to be a dose of reality for her. Right now she has her cake and eats it too. Selling the house, having the kids every other week will be a total shock to her system. I fully expect major drama to come now.

Interesting. Your situation sounds similar to mine. When I confronted her about her online emotional affair, she said she didn't want to be married anymore. She had this whole fantastical plan worked out in her head:

1) She would get a job.
2) She'd get an apartment.
3) We'd get a quickie online divorce for $139.
4) I'd keep the house and my daughter would live with me most of the time.
5) She'd keep a key and a lot of our family dynamic would remain the same.
6) Her and I would remain close friends, even going out on dates and spending mutual time with our daughter.

All precipitated by the fact that she is turning 50 next month and feels this is her last chance at happiness. Apparently she wanted many of the things she already had but she also wanted to be free to date and sleep with other people. (She never came out and admitted this, but you don't need your own place for any other reason!)

When I began to shatter her illusion she started to sober up a bit.

1 & 2) I told her she would have to get a real job using her degree in order to be self-sufficient. Not some retail or restaurant job where she got to set her own hours.

3) No such thing as a quickie divorce with kids. That there would be lawyers involved and it would take at least a year (here in Michigan) if not longer!

4) We'd sell the house and split the profit. It was the only fair thing to after 19 years (in April) of marriage. This one hit her hard. My daughter loves our house and property and my wife knows our daughter will be very angry over this.

5 & 6) I began to unravel this fantasy pointing out that new people in our lives wouldn't appreciate that type of relationship. Plus reality was we'd begin to really pull back from each other and our only common connection would be our daughter.

As reality has hit her over the last 2 months I she has started to rethink things. She still isn't ready to let go of the fantasy entirely, but her behavior has been to get on board with staying and making things better.

[Element]

Hey Steve85,

Definitely some similarities there. My W has never held a steady job and will certainly have a tough time making enough money to have a standard of living she’s been used to. I think in her fantasy-head, she’d like us to remain friends, be able to spend quality family time together, have full custody of the kids, and somehow sustain her standard of living. It’s totally unrealistic.

She’s got a friend encouraging her to formalizing S, leading to D, so she can have her “freedom”. Again, this is wishful thinking. Her family means a lot to her, the kids mean everything to her. She’s foolish to think that she can be free of the emotional grip.

As MWD says, when the marriage ends, it means the death of the family and this really shakes the children and in-turn the ex-couple. The financial burden is often overlooked, minimized, or denied.

As I put together a formal S agreement, I will call it like it is and let her see what is to come. It’s a good hard dose of reality that is long overdue.

[sandi2]

Can you give us some marital history? Why did the two of you separate?

I’m struggling on whether or not to expose my knowledge of this, and if so how and to who.

What do you wish to accomplish by exposing her? What would you be exposing, that she is planning to meet this OM? Do you have any proof, other than what your kids said? Do you know the OM personally?

It's JMHO that you should not step off into exposing her. You have been physically separated for four years, so unless this man is threating harm to your children, or he is into criminal activity, or something equally as bad.......then your actions could be seen as punitive, controlling, jealous, and host of other negative things. All in all, if your intentions are to get your W to fall into your arms......exposing her probably won't be favorable.

She also said she has not and is not seeing anyone. Starting saying that she’ll probably be alone for the rest of her life, who would want to be with her. I didnt say a word about what i knew about her trying to lure away this OM.

Is this the first time you have seen her in this light (playing the victim, lying, etc.)?

At any rate, i will happily put together a formal separation agreement. I expect this to be a dose of reality for her. Right now she has her cake and eats it too. Selling the house, having the kids every other week will be a total shock to her system.

So, has she not had to share equal time with the kids? I suppose with you being there, doing handiwork around the house, plus being with the kids, has served her a lot of cake. If she has not had to go to work and if you are supporting her in every way.....just as you did before separation, then removing all of it will be more shock than just the S agreement in place.

Until we hear more about what led to the S, then IMHO...it's time to get an agreement in place. Why does she get to stay home and not work, while you can't even afford a place to live? It's time you had a place to live, instead of staying with your parents.

If she is a WW, then I'm sure she is not going to like any agreement that is actually "fair" to both of you. It sounds as if you have spoiled her in many ways. If so, then she's not going to be happy about giving up anything.

But before assuming too much, we really need to hear the background story.

[Element]

Can you give us some marital history? Why did the two of you separate?

The separation was initiated by her. We were having intimacy issues after our second child. This was compounded by having to deal with 2 kids with special needs. She had also been in an accident that caused her physical restrictions (back pain, lots of headaches). Leading up to the separation, she had classic WAW issues going on. We went to some marriage counselling, then stopped after about 6 session, but things didn't get any better. I actually thought things were getting better, but then she hit me with wanting to separate again. We did some more counselling, but she felt out counselor was siding with me. I did all the wrong things ... pleading, begging, showing her I can change. She then but the blame on the breakdown on me, saying I was the one who gave up on her. As it was not good living under the same roof with a WAW, she asked that we physically separate. Our only option at that time was for me to move with my parents as she has no family where we live.

What do you wish to accomplish by exposing her? What would you be exposing, that she is planning to meet this OM? Do you have any proof, other than what your kids said? Do you know the OM personally?

My kids didn't say anything, they don't know. I discovered via a poorly timed TM she received that was explicit. I do not know the OM personally. I just found out about this, so the hurt was pretty bad. I thought we were making progress. She had just settled her injury case that had dragged on for 8 years and had talked about starting fresh. I thought perhaps she meant together, so that's why I'm so hurt by it. Now that I've had more time to think about it, I don't think exposing it will serve any good purpose. In terms of proof, lets just say I saw some sexually explicit TM's that made reference to getting together before, and plans to get together again.

Is this the first time you have seen her in this light (playing the victim, lying, etc.)?

Oh god no. She plays the victim all the time. She could write a book on how many people have wronged her. Whether it be her family, my family, her friends, my friends, her colleagues ... in terms of lying, I've not seen that before. However I can understand why she would not reveal this with the OM.

So, has she not had to share equal time with the kids? I suppose with you being there, doing handiwork around the house, plus being with the kids, has served her a lot of cake. If she has not had to go to work and if you are supporting her in every way.....just as you did before separation, then removing all of it will be more shock than just the S agreement in place.

We've managed to have somewhat equal time given our situation, just that I'm not parenting while they're sleeping as I'm back at my parents place.

Why does she get to stay home and not work, while you can't even afford a place to live? It's time you had a place to live, instead of staying with your parents.

She's had a few jobs from running her own business, to working sales, now starting a new business again. But the work and pay is nowhere remotely close to what I make.

[Element]

Sandi - in addition to above, I’ll respond to this

If she is a WW, then I’m sure she is not going to like any agreement that is actually "fair" to both of you. It sounds as if you have spoiled her in many ways. If so, then she's not going to be happy about giving up anything.

Back when we first separated, I felt she was a classic WAW. I’d say our separation is definitely not the norm. I’ve been there for the kids, our home, and for her. How close we’ve been has varied, but an example is that we just went away as a family for 10 days. There’s hasn’t been proper detachment, from both sides. This is why I feel she is acting more like a WW now that she’s pursuing this OM. This guy is likely not going to give up his life with W he shares a business with and their 3 kids so he can be with my W. Seems pure fantasy to me, and probably more of a tryst for him.

The other day when she was crying, when she got all down on herself, she also said “you said you’d take care or me”. Previous meltdowns she has said “just promise me you won’t take the kids away from me. They’re my life”. To me that’s just an absurd thing to think. The law if anything would dictate equal rights. Perhaps she doesn’t even want me to take them half time, I don’t know as she’s never explicitly said that.

She has also said that she feels bad that I have to live at my parents and that I should have my own place. I had told her that’s not really feasible unless we formally separate/divorce and sell the house. She then at one point says maybe we could get a couple of condos or townhouse/row houses near each other. Just crazy stuff. She has waffled over the separation years by saying “we need to sell the house, I can’t keep up with the maintenance, I need to get a smaller place” to then talk about renovations, painting, upgrading the garden, etc. Then waffling back and forth between usage of “my place” and “our home”.

So at any rate, I’m working on putting together a proper separation agreement with the help of a friend who recently separated and has a legal agreement. Not sure how far I’ll go as I do want to wait and see what the response is. For instance, forcing us to sell the house now will be very stressful not just for her, but me and my kids (primary concern is kids).

[sandi2]

Just to clarify, did she ever give you a specified reason for wanting a separation? Did she have a just cause in wanting to S? In other words, were you mean or abusive in any way? Had you been unfaithful? Did you have an addiction? It is very important that we know the cause behind the S. And, if you don't know the cause........then that's important, too.

Am I correct in saying you have financially supported your W during the four years of separation? I don't mean child support, but you supported her, as well. Was this the reason she was not forced to find a job to support herself, or was she not physically well enough to work?

Was there ever any other time you S?

How long was it between the time second child was born and she had the accident? You were already experiencing intimacy problems before the accident, right? So, how well did you cope with little sex after she was left with back pain and headaches? Was her pain continuous, or occasionally?

As soon as you can answer these questions, I will respond to the other things you've posted.

[Element]

Just to clarify, did she ever give you a specified reason for wanting a separation? Did she have a just cause in wanting to S? In other words, were you mean or abusive in any way? Had you been unfaithful? Did you have an addiction? It is very important that we know the cause behind the S. And, if you don't know the cause........then that's important, too.

No to mean/abusive. No to unfaithful. No to addiction. As my telephone coach described it, our problems were of the garden variety/very common. Her reason for separating is that she felt that I stopped loving her and gave up on her. She felt that I had issues I didn't deal it, perhaps not dealing with the fact that we have 2 kids on the autism spectrum. She thinks I'm a great Dad and provider, but not a good husband. I can understand why she felt that, but I never stopped loving her or stopped being attracted to her. If anything I didn't know what to do.

Am I correct in saying you have financially supported your W during the four years of separation? I don't mean child support, but you supported her, as well. Was this the reason she was not forced to find a job to support herself, or was she not physically well enough to work?

That's accurate. She has made some money, but not enough to support herself, I've provided the finances for majority of living expenses. We had agreed that it would be best if she didn't have a full time job while the kids were young so she could be there to support them with school and therapy sessions. She also had physical restrictions in the type of work she could do or the duration of the work (physically she would burnout quickly or with physical discomfort).

Was there ever any other time you S?

No

How long was it between the time second child was born and she had the accident?

5 months

You were already experiencing intimacy problems before the accident, right? So, how well did you cope with little sex after she was left with back pain and headaches? Was her pain continuous, or occasionally?

Yes. She had a tough 2nd pregnancy. Also had a miscarriage between 1st and 2nd child. Physically she was not in good shape from the pregnancy which to me caused a lack of intimacy. To the point I could see her pain when being intimate. Then on top of that she has this accident which made things way worse.

[sandi2]

Did she ever see a specialist about low hormones? I am no doctor, but I read a lot. (Just a joke).

I never recall hearing from other women or reading anything about difficult pregnancies affecting their sex drive after the baby was born. Her hormone levels could have been too low. However, with the right meds, hormones can be helped to level out. Physical exhaustion or other issues can play a part in her interest. I do sympathize with her about back pain. I had it after my last child was born, and still do to this day. It played a big part in me not feeling like having sex, as much as my H wanted.

As for as her giving you the garden variety of excuses to S..........it makes me question what was in her heart. Holding resentment and disrespect toward her H is the foundation of a wayward mindset. Considering her physical issues, the children, and you being a man with NGS.........it's not hard to imagine how that could take seed and grow. The sad truth is that we women won't just come out and tell our H how we have resentment we can't get past. Many women won't admit they no longer feel attracted to their H, much less admit they have lost respect for him. Most women will complain, and talk about different things the H is not doing.......but they don't resolve the real issues at the bottom of it all.

I have posted a lot on the subject, so I hope I am not repeating myself.

[Element]

Did she ever see a specialist about low hormones?

Her hormones have been all over the map. She has seen a specialist recently, and she became a lot more reasonable to converse with. But this is post-separation. I should add that she also deals with ups and downs of depression and anxiety. Her anxiety got worse as we got closer to the separation date. She was falling apart in front of my eyes and I didn't know what to do to bring her back. As this was happening, it made matters even more difficult to try to improve intimacy.

As for as her giving you the garden variety of excuses to S..........it makes me question what was in her heart. Holding resentment and disrespect toward her H is the foundation of a wayward mindset. Considering her physical issues, the children, and you being a man with NGS.........it's not hard to imagine how that could take seed and grow. The sad truth is that we women won't just come out and tell our H how we have resentment we can't get past. Many women won't admit they no longer feel attracted to their H, much less admit they have lost respect for him. Most women will complain, and talk about different things the H is not doing.......but they don't resolve the real issues at the bottom of it all.

She had a lot of resentment towards me not taking her side with family issues with my mother and sisters. I tried to see things from both perspectives. I definitely know now that this was a huge mistake. At the end of the day I want to sleep with my W, not my mother/sister, so the only side to take was my Ws. I know that now, have apologized, and have made amends that she recognizes. But my W is an expert at putting up a wedge between her and anyone who wrongs her. Friends, extended family members, her immediate family, doesn't matter. She has grudges that end with her putting up a wall. She probably would have done that to me too, but I'm her kids father and she financially depends on me.

She surely still holds resentment towards me for what she says ended our marriage (even though she asked for the separation). She says we were suppose to be together, then I gave up on her. She's angry at me for that and has said that she resents me for it. She says that when we get into an argument, that I make her feel like she's nothing. She'll say this even when having a calm discussion over a contentious subject. She escalate things to push buttons, or start crying saying she's afraid I'll get angry. I feel like she goes there to manipulate the conversation from going the way she doesn't want it to go. Talks in circles to the point you don't know how you got there. Very insecure.

[sandi2]

Thanks for answering my questions. Although it may seem "after the fact", it really helps to have a better view. It sounds as if she was going through hell, with her imbalance in hormones and the depression.

She had a lot of resentment towards me not taking her side with family issues with my mother and sisters. I tried to see things from both perspectives. I definitely know now that this was a huge mistake. At the end of the day I want to sleep with my W, not my mother/sister, so the only side to take was my Ws.

This situation is one in which I can really relate. My H had a large family and they would talk behind the backs of in-laws. When anything was said about me in the presence of my H, he would not defend me, b/c he did not want to cause problems. If I had an issue with his mother, he would not support me.

In this post, I want to speak to you, and others, as if you were still living with your W. the reason is b/c I want to help someone who may find themselves in this position with their W, either now or in the future. I hope everyone who might stumble across this post will pay attention to my next sentence. Those issues you spoke about in the quote above, laid the foundation of resentment in my heart, that I could not get past in my MR.

You said you finally chose your W b/c she was the one you wanted to sleep with.......not you mother or sisters. Okay, I understand. But I don't think you understand how the W feels in this type of situation. When you married her, it was your job to protect her, as best that you could. Whenever a H chooses sides with another woman......even his mother and sisters.......the W feels betrayed and unprotected.
. And the pain is made worse b/c the betrayal came from the one who is suppose to put her over all others. Even if you don't agree with her, she needs to feel you are in her corner. Be careful how you take up for the other female in a dispute. She takes it extremely personal when you appear to side with someone else. This is true especially with younger women. When disagreeing with her means you agree with another person (especially a female), she can see it as you changing allegiance.......if you do 't handle it carefully. I don't think men see it this seriously, and although it sounds very immature on the part of the W........it is real.

For me, all I ever wanted was to be first in my H's heart. I wanted him to continue loving his mother and family members. I never expected him to forsake them. But neither did I think he would just sit there and let his mother run me down with her sharp criticism. In a sense, it's as if she became the other woman. He would go straight from work to see her, before he would go home. A part of me knew why, but the other part felt as if I was second place. Over the years, I became more resentful and I also began losing respect for him. Not all of the source of disrespect stemed from him choosing his mother over me......but the deep resentment definitely started there.

My H was not only a very "nice-guy", but he was very quite, easy-going, and a gentle soul. He always saw the good in another person. These traits were often seen as him being timid or submissive. If he didn't say anything, it was assumed that he agreed. That wasn't the case, but it was not how it appeared. I would dare guess that his mother was just as frustrated at him, as I was. After all these years, I can look back and see how he was in such a terrible position. He was in the middle of the two women he loved the most.

I told you about my personal situation b/c I wanted you to try and see her point of view. I hope you didn't tell her you chose to side with her b/c you wanted to sleep with her. That would not be wise. She doesn't want to be number one in your life b/c of sex. She wants you to love her above all others. You can still love your family, but show your loyalty to her as long you are living together.

BTW, showing that she takes priority in your heart & life, doesn't mean that you can't privately tell her when she is wrong about something. Just don't do it in such a way that sounds as if you are siding against her. That will only add gasoline to the fire, and then she'll be angry and hurt at you. Sometimes, the W can get so out of line that the H has to call her out.......even if it means she gets mad and hurt. He does it b/c he doesn't want her developing unattractive traits, or to use bullying tactics, be manipulative, etc. most of all, he can't allow her to be dominant over him. If she is the dominant one in the MR, it kills her respect and attraction for him......and that gives way to a long list of problems.

This leads me to another issue for the H who have the NGS. In his frustration of trying to just keep the peace at home.....and between his W and family.......he falls into a bad pattern of letting his W make most of the decisions. The couple make big decisions together, but her desires usually persuade the final outcome. The H thinks it is easier to just go along with whatever she wants. Therefore, he takes the passive position........which makes the nice-guy infamous. Listen up, guys. Women hate passivity in men! They love to see confident, decisive men. Even if the man doesn't decide to do what she would prefer, she likes the fact he has a mind of his own.

In all that I have previously said above, I am telling you H's to not buckle down to whatever your W wants. Yes, show her she is number one above other people, but she doesn't rule YOU. Make sense? Let's move away from the tension or conflicts within family issues. You can make decisions to do what you believe is best......or just b/c you are a man can do whatever the h@ll you want, without it causing her to feel you have betrayed her and sided with another person. As the man/husband in the M, you are suppose to be the leader. That means you need to have a certain amount of male dominance. (I won't get into the subject of male domance in the bedroom, right now). The feminine part that makes up a woman is naturally attracted to her H when he presents a level of male domance in the family and marriage dynamics. When he doesn't show male dominance, then it is left to her to lead, make decisions, and give the orders/instructions. Although she may be plenty qualified to make decisions and to lead in his absence, whenever this job defaults to her b/c her H is passive........ it kills her attraction for her him, b/c all she sees is weakness/laziness. To a woman, passivity equals weakness. It breaks down the natural order that places the man in charge. When she has to be the one to step up.......she looses respect for him. And, why shouldn't she? Her ability to feel attraction or "in love", is tied to her level of respect. So, without respect, she won't feel in love with the H that was designed to be her leader, protector, and provider. The reason so many men with the NGS experience a SSM, is b/c their W has lost respect and it affects her sexual desire.

I better stop here, b/c this post is getting too long.

[Element]

Thanks Sandi2 for your reply. Your perspective is truly enlightening. I‘ve been reading it over and over to try and understand what my W went through. And yeah, for her it was hell. For me it was too, but in the heat of the moment it came across as nagging.

I hope you didn't tell her you chose to side with her b/c you wanted to sleep with her. That would not be wise. She doesn't want to be number one in your life b/c of sex. She wants you to love her above all others. You can still love your family, but show your loyalty to her as long you are living together.

No, I never said that to her. It’s something I came across Dr.Phil said about taking sides with your mom over your W. In principle you want to continue to have a solid relationship with your W, and in such if you want to keep sleeping next to your W, you better back her up.

Today was interesting in that my W asked me this morning if I wanted to come by for dinner because my son wanted to know if I’d be by for dinner. She asked if I was available, or if I already had plans. I felt like she was really trying to see if I had plans on Valentines Day. Maybe/maybe not.

Had a session with my telephone coach yesterday. With regards to putting in place a formal S agreement, I feel it’s necessary not only for my own good, but also to give my W a dose of reality. Will provide some options including Bird’s Nest custody as its likely the best option for the kids so they’re not moving back and forth each week between mom and dad’s places. Despite the fact that she’s brought up the need to formalize the separation, i think she’ll take it extremely hard. Not sure what the reaction will be.

With regards to the OM situation, I’m keeping that to myself. Exposing may have dire consequences or embolden her to move forward with something that is built on lies. It’ll likely fizzle out over time.

[patty13]

Sounds to me like your W has the best of both worlds. After a 4 year separation, is it time to make it formal where you start paying child support and she has to meet her own financial needs? She has never really had to face any of the consequences of her actions. She has all the control and you still carry everyone.

I am glad your telephone coach suggested something similar.

[AnotherStander]

With regards to putting in place a formal S agreement, I feel it’s necessary not only for my own good, but also to give my W a dose of reality.

Your actions need to be solely focused on doing what's right for you and the kids. Don't do anything hoping it'll wake your W up, or snap her out of it, or give her a "dose of reality". Because it probably won't, and that'll just leave you disappointed and wondering if you are doing the right thing. If you feel an S is appropriate at this time (who would blame you after a 4 year separation) then by all means proceed. But don't be surprised if your W welcomes the notion of taking this step to end things permanently.

With regards to the OM situation, I’m keeping that to myself. Exposing may have dire consequences or embolden her to move forward with something that is built on lies. It’ll likely fizzle out over time.

What would you be "exposing", that a woman that has been separated for 4 years finally went out on a date? I doubt anyone would find that shocking or surprising. It's not your job to do that anyway, people will find out. You don't need to be the messenger, that just makes you look like the petty one.

[sandi2]

Well, it's your business and your life, of course, but I have to ask why you would want to set up the bird nesting arrangement. Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the reason you were staying with your parents was b/c you could not afford to pay for two separate places. What if she doesn't work enough to pay her share of the expenses? Here's the thing. You will be sharing both places with her. You may not be together at the same time, but you will still be sharing dwelling places. You'll be there with her personal, intimate belongings, and seeing traces of what she did while you were gone. She will probably be dating someone, may even have friends over......maybe someone you don't know anything about. So, are you really prepared to share two living spaces with her? How well do you think you'll be able to detach when you cannot escape from from seeing traces of her everywhere you try to have space for yourself? Do you follow what I am saying here?

You spoke of her options being limited, so are you considering this as an option for her? How long do you think this type of arrangement will hold? I have a hard time understanding how it will benefit you, or how this helps the situation. Would it not be better for one of you to have your own place, instead of sharing both places? I get what you mean about the kids, but realistically, the parents are not going to continue to nest until the kids go off to college. One of the parents, and likely both of them, will eventually live with someone new, if they don't reconcile. I'm just throwing this out there so you will see other view points before making a decision.

Speaking of detaching, as much as you are over at the family home, I kind of doubt you are anywhere close to emotionally detaching from your W. I may be mistaken, but it's a wild guess. There are a lot of times you stick around to have dinner with them. IMHO, it would be good to decline most of those invitations.......due to having other plans (GAL). If you are going to be a separated couple, maybe it's time to start playing the part more. Don't be so available to her needs all the time. You need to get busy GAL.

Have you seen anyone since the breakup? Do you currently do anything with your buddies, or engage in activities where you will meet new people? Do you have a hobby or are you involved in a sport or activity that takes up part of your free time?

I understand you wanted things to get so much better that she would ask you to move back home. It sounds as if she likes your company/ friendship.......else she would not ask you to stay for dinner as often. Do you agree? She just hasn't had the desire to have a more intimate relationship with you, from all appearances. And, as far as you can determine, she is not doing anything specifically to improve that status, right?

Don't underestimate how effective it could be when she suddenly doesn't have you around all the time. When you don't accept every invitation, or go running when she snaps her fingers.......and when you are busy GAL.......it could make a difference in how both of you feel. One thing is for sure......what you've done the past four years has not changed her decision. So.........you need a new plan.

[Element]

Well, it's your business and your life, of course, but I have to ask why you would want to set up the bird nesting arrangement. Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the reason you were staying with your parents was b/c you could not afford to pay for two separate places. What if she doesn't work enough to pay her share of the expenses? Here's the thing. You will be sharing both places with her. You may not be together at the same time, but you will still be sharing dwelling places. You'll be there with her personal, intimate belongings, and seeing traces of what she did while you were gone. She will probably be dating someone, may even have friends over......maybe someone you don't know anything about. So, are you really prepared to share two living spaces with her? How well do you think you'll be able to detach when you cannot escape from from seeing traces of her everywhere you try to have space for yourself? Do you follow what I am saying here?

Those are very good points. I haven't had a lot of time to think it all through. In fact I had never heard of a bird nesting arrangement before until my coach mentioned it as an option that is least disruptive to the children.

You spoke of her options being limited, so are you considering this as an option for her? How long do you think this type of arrangement will hold? I have a hard time understanding how it will benefit you, or how this helps the situation. Would it not be better for one of you to have your own place, instead of sharing both places? I get what you mean about the kids, but realistically, the parents are not going to continue to nest until the kids go off to college. One of the parents, and likely both of them, will eventually live with someone new, if they don't reconcile. I'm just throwing this out there so you will see other view points before making a decision.

Thank you for your perspective, its a very good point. Ideally I would like to have my kids with me equal time, but this would require having a another place to live with 3 bedrooms, unless the kids share a room. I haven't gone through the financial viability of that yet. Some of the financial restrictions we had have subsided significantly now, and this may be an option I can play with. I'd prefer not to start our separation agreement with the sale of our family home until we're certain there will be no reconciliation. To date, neither one of us has asked for a D.

Speaking of detaching, as much as you are over at the family home, I kind of doubt you are anywhere close to emotionally detaching from your W. I may be mistaken, but it's a wild guess. There are a lot of times you stick around to have dinner with them. IMHO, it would be good to decline most of those invitations.......due to having other plans (GAL). If you are going to be a separated couple, maybe it's time to start playing the part more. Don't be so available to her needs all the time. You need to get busy GAL.

Agreed, that's where my heads at and I've been doing that. But no, you're right, I'm not emotionally detached from her, and it seems to me the more I pull back, the more she pulls me back in.

Have you seen anyone since the breakup? Do you currently do anything with your buddies, or engage in activities where you will meet new people? Do you have a hobby or are you involved in a sport or activity that takes up part of your free time?

I have not seen anyone/dated anyone since the breakup. I do play sports twice a week. I'm now back in the gym twice a week and go swimming twice a week as well. I've made effort to reconnect with a couple of my buddies in the evenings. I've planned a trip with one of my friends this fall, and have made other plans to travel for sporting events. There are a group of colleagues I work indirectly with that get together for socials about once a month. Last night I was out and one lady was hitting on me pretty hard and wants to get together again soon.

I understand you wanted things to get so much better that she would ask you to move back home. It sounds as if she likes your company/ friendship.......else she would not ask you to stay for dinner as often. Do you agree?

100% agree ... she's said as much that she likes having me around.

She just hasn't had the desire to have a more intimate relationship with you, from all appearances. And, as far as you can determine, she is not doing anything specifically to improve that status, right?

That's correct. I believe she's afraid that if she let me back in, things would go back to the way they were, and she'd be emotionally destroyed

Don't underestimate how effective it could be when she suddenly doesn't have you around all the time. When you don't accept every invitation, or go running when she snaps her fingers.......and when you are busy GAL.......it could make a difference in how both of you feel. One thing is for sure......what you've done the past four years has not changed her decision. So.........you need a new plan.

Thank-you Sandy ... you're a godsend!

[Element]

Your actions need to be solely focused on doing what's right for you and the kids. Don't do anything hoping it'll wake your W up, or snap her out of it, or give her a "dose of reality". Because it probably won't, and that'll just leave you disappointed and wondering if you are doing the right thing. If you feel an S is appropriate at this time (who would blame you after a 4 year separation) then by all means proceed. But don't be surprised if your W welcomes the notion of taking this step to end things permanently.

I get what you’re saying, and yes I don’t have grand illusions that she’ll snap out of it because I’m pulling back and GAL. On the other hand I recognize what I’ve been doing has not been working to repair the MR. After all we’ve been thru I don’t know how I’d respond if she were to try and get me back. I certainly would not fall back into her arms as I really believe she has a lot of issues she needs to work thru. But ya, I recognize that I have not properly detached and she still has a place in my heart. Marriage means a lot to me, I’m a long term thinker. I would not outright dismiss the chance to try again knowing now what not to do.

What would you be "exposing", that a woman that has been separated for 4 years finally went out on a date? I doubt anyone would find that shocking or surprising. It's not your job to do that anyway, people will find out. You don't need to be the messenger, that just makes you look like the petty one.

I get your point, and if she was just lining up a date, my reaction would be quite different. For one, she’s been secretly been carrying on with a married man who has 3 kids. Yes, I understand her secrecy around this given that people may judge her as a home wrecker. How often she has hooked with him I’m not too sure, but they definitely have had some infrequent hookups over the last 6 months or so. Just last week when speaking to my W she tells me that she hasn’t and isn’t seeing anyone, and doesn’t think anyone would want to be with her the way she is. And ya, she’s got a lot of baggage for someone actually an R, not just a tryst. She’s very attractive and has no problem getting men’s attention, but I know she’s not the tryst type, she yearns for R and that’s where all the other crap comes out of the closet. So anyways, she’s lying to me about this, and ya I’m being judgmental in that it’s with a guy who is married with kids, because I just don’t think that’s right. But no, I’m not going to expose that I’m aware to her, or confront the OM or OM’s W. through this forum and talking with others there’s a whole slew of reasons not to do that. One I had not considered was what if the OM or OM’s W goes nuts and comes after my W or my family. Who the hell knows. I see how stupid that would be of me to start a series of reactions that may be devastating. But it’s funny how thinking thru these things messes with your head. At one point I was thinking I could snail mail an anonymous “somebody’s been a bad boy” letter to this guy. But I realize that’s just stupid jealously on my part and does nothing for me to detach from her, in fact does the opposite. So I’m thankful for all the sound advice posted here.

[sandi2]

Ideally I would like to have my kids with me equal time, but this would require having a another place to live with 3 bedrooms, unless the kids share a room.

As you said, "ideally", that would be great. In reality, you may have to settle for a smaller place until your finances allow a bigger one. But since it will be an all male camp.....that should not be too bad.

I'm not trying to make light of a sad situation. Just trying to help you see that you may have to start with small steps to get to where you want. That is how I have found life to be for me.

((hugs))

[Element]

Thanks sandi2 for the the advice.

Had an interesting day yesterday. W decided to take the kids to watch me play hockey, then they wanted to go out to a restaurant afterwards. I said okay as it’s kind of like family time activities. Afterwards played some games as a family which was nice. Then W is chatting to me about how she’d like to go away on vacation again. Even through out the idea of going any living in California together. She doesn’t like winter and says she just wants to go somewhere new and start over. I did not engage further as I don’t know what she’s up to or just a moment to fantasize or try and get a reaction out of me.

[Element]

Received my copy of No More Mr. Nice Guy today. About to dive into it now ....

[sandi2]

Great!

[SteveLW]

Received my copy of No More Mr. Nice Guy today. About to dive into it now ....

I just bought the Kindle version based on your post. I will read it this weekend.

[MoveFrwd]

W decided to take the kids to watch me play hockey, then they wanted to go out to a restaurant afterwards. I said okay as it’s kind of like family time activities.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

[Element]

Amoafwl - what I mean is that I feel it’s okay for the kids to have some family time with their mom and dad. While it may be feeding into her having her cake and eating it to, I did it for the kids.

[WindyC]

Element. My very first post, but I thought I needed to chime in on this thread. Although, I am not your wife and every situation is unique, I wanted to maybe shine some light on your wife's perspective, for our situations are VERY similar. I am too a stay at home mom with an autistic kid who is in the middle of moving out, sort of.
Majority of women, and especially stay at home moms of special needs kids, would never walk out of a 14-20 year old marriage for frivolous reasons, unless they are frivolous women. But those women usually reveal themselves relatively quickly in the marriage. If I have to guess from reading your posts, your wife is not one of them. I don't know what happened in your marriage, but I know what happened in mine and they are very serious reasons to walk out. When you hit middle age, you start to think - is this the person who has my back when I am old and sick, is this my PARTNER or is this the person who only cares for me when I am fulfilling HIS needs? You might get defensive and say - "She is the one using me!" and from where you stand it might appear so.
I can tell you why I gave up on my marriage - hopelessness. Hopelessness that the changes that I need to see in my husband to make me happy as a woman and make me swoon with desire can happen. Because for most married women, desire starts outside of the bedroom. I have to respect you as a man, whatever the criteria it maybe for each individual woman. I lost hope that my husband has the character and strength to make permanent changes in himself. I have convinced myself that based on his actions in the past I am not important to him enough for him to jump through the hoops. I have told him and told him and told him and told him and on and on and on. He would change for a bit, but it would ALWAYS go back to where it started. And it seems to be the running theme here, men don't really listen and take their wives seriously. Like a boss who nods in agreement when you ask for a raise every year, but then nothing happens and years go by. You then loose hope that you are a valued employee and is forced to find another job or quit even though you love your job. I believe that if you really dig deep into your past you will probably remember what your wife "bugged and nagged" you about on the consistent basis. You probably acted as if those things were optional but she was telling you exactly what you need to do that makes her see you as a male PARTNER. I don't know your wife, she might "like her cake and eat it too" like you said, but I am living in my husband's house and from aside it looks like I am eating the cake. Family and no intimacy. But I am here not for myself or to torture my husband. When you have kids and you are divorcing you want to make it as painless as possible for them, especially kids on the spectrum. The routine is everything to them. If I had no kids, I would be LONG gone. Money, no money. House, no house. I could sleep in my car if I had to. When you have kids your priority is with them. If I have to guess, my sentiments are similar to your wife's. Having a huge gap in your resume does not help either. It is hard to find a job that pays enough to support me and my kids. I am struggling. Your wife is probably too. See, you BOTH had family, you BOTH contributed a lot, but when it did not work out it is not you who does not have anything to show for it. It is your wife. Just imagine yourself in that position. How hopeless she must have felt with this marriage to initiate her own self destruction? It is not an impulse. Oh, no. She has been feeling like this is her only option left to shake you up. Like I said, every situation is unique, but it sounds like she is hanging on to the marriage. If everything you say is true, I would assume she is still waiting like me, otherwise she would file a long time ago. Something you are doing or not doing that has yet to convince her that you are the man she wants to grow old with. I only know what my husband needs to do, but every woman has a different love language, like you said. I would probably assume that communication has not been your marriage's strongest point like many, so if I have to give you any point here I would start with improving your interpersonal communication skills. Men seem to struggle in this department. They either passively agree to everything wife says to avoid a conflict and to appear supportive or they stonewall or get defensive and accusatory. Neither approach helps the bedroom situation. One comes off as weak and passive another as an [censored]. There are tons of books on the subject to help there. One thing to add though, that we women are sexual beings with sexual needs. Your wife's OM - Married, unavailable (purely for sex kind of thing) - a booty call maybe? Men do it all the time - AshleyMadison.com and such. I know I would gladly jump my husband's bones any day just for sex, but then it would totally screw him up if I decided to finally leave. I don't want him to suffer more than he has already. Of course, I am speaking purely from my own perspective. You have to find out your truth with your wife.

[sandi2]

Hi Wendi, reading Element's thread obviously spoke to you emotionally. I hope everyone who reads it will appreciate your input. I encourage you to start your own thread, and tell us your story. I believe your perspective would be very helpful to others, plus, you could receive support from the DB community.

[AnotherStander]

My very first post

I hope it's not your last, it's always valuable to hear the "other side of the story" here! Because we mostly hear the LBS's view, it tends to sound like WAS's are crazy and doing stuff that doesn't make sense. But that's not how the WAS sees it at all, they feel like they've been trying hard for months or years to get through to their spouse and that they are left with no options but BD.

I would probably assume that communication has not been your marriage's strongest point like many, so if I have to give you any point here I would start with improving your interpersonal communication skills. Men seem to struggle in this department. They either passively agree to everything wife says to avoid a conflict and to appear supportive or they stonewall or get defensive and accusatory.

AMEN!!!! Unfortunately this is one of the main differences between men and women, men are trained by their fathers and other male figures in their life and even in school situations to bury emotions and feelings and do everything to avoid conflict with the opposite sex. I wish there was some way to incorporate Retrouvaille in life as a required course before getting married, the communication techniques they teach are quite invaluable. Unfortunately most of us don't end up going until it's too late.

I also wish that most WAS's didn't wait until they were completely shut down in the M before BD'ing, because it IS possible for a LBH to change, and change drastically. Many of us did it. But our WAS's were too far gone for it to matter.

I don't want him to suffer more than he has already.

While your silent suffering has been taking place for a long time, your H's has only just barely started. It will get much worse for him in the coming months. You really should either give him a chance or leave, you are doing no one any favors by staying under the same roof. You may think it's best for the kids but it really isn't, it's a very toxic living situation for them.

[SteveLW]

Wendy, I appreciate your post. Your post seems like something my wife could write. But a couple of observations.

You talk about what you need from your husband but you don't articulate it. Is that what you did in your marriage too? I am struggling with this with my wife. "I've tried and tried over the last 19 years, and nothing has changed." Never in 19 years did she sit me down and articulate what she needs from me. I got passive-aggressive and vague hints as to what her needs from me are. I think WW often think they have been clear as to what needed to change, but very few have actually articulated it in a clear manner.

Second, where there is a will there is a way. I know my wife is struggling with her "job search" as well. Of course for her spending 5-7 hours a day on a karaoke singing app has taken preference (cake eating). Her excuse is that she wants to find a work from home position. Good luck with that. If you think having a huge hole in your resume (and hers is 14 years) try having that AND trying to find a company that says "oh and you can stay home and we'll pay you!" Probably not happening. I have a great reputation at work and they allow me to WFH every Friday. Even with my reputation I can't imagine going to my boss and saying, I'd like to work from home everyday.

So while I appreciate your perspective I have to call hogwash on why you are still there, why you haven't filed, etc. Everyone can come up with excuses. You need to either follow through, or commit for the long-haul. How long have you been in this state of limbo?

[WindyC]

Hi Steve.
I just thought I would try to explain at least some of it. I think people, both men and women, tend to not put their best foot forward when they don't fear losing something. Marriages get too comfortable. You know? We are all guilty of that. If your boss mentioned as he passed by your desk, Hey don't be late next time please ok? and it happened 20 times in a month, would you be surprised if he fired you? You would not expect him to sit you down and explain you "officially" that he does not like you being late. Same in the our interpersonal relationships. Your friends don't sit you down and tell you exactly how they want to be treated by you, you just learn by observation and by listening to them - by being a good friend. If your friend is flaky and ignores your "hints" that you don't appreciate it, sooner or later you will drop that friend. Marriages are no different. When both men and women do not prioritize their partners wishes - marriages break down. Please, don't think that I think only men are guilty of that. I had to reevaluate my own past behavior as well. I am a better person for it.
14 year resume gap is petrifying. She is probably very anxious to even start looking because of it. Why don't you offer her help? Hire an interview coach, network for her. Have her back when she needs you without her asking for it? Take the lead. Trust me, if my husband would even try doing it for me, the sparks would be flying.

And I have not filed because, if I do it before I find a sustainable job - my husband would have to pay alimony and kids support. It would take 40% of his pay and he would struggle financially, because he is reckless financially, has debt and just swings his credit card anytime he wants something. So, like I said, I do want to move on but I don't want to put sticks in his wheels while doing it. I want to live independent of him. I don't want his money. I don't really want to go into details about my marriage and take your thread over. Let's just say - he does not deserve to eat his cake either.

[WindyC]

Sandi2. Thank you.

[WindyC]

AnotherStander. Thank you for your input. My situation is a little different here. I did leave. I left for two years. This is me coming back lol. Will see if he can win be back.

[Cadet]

My situation is a little different here.

BUT I still subscribe to this advice

I encourage you to start your own thread, and tell us your story.
I believe your perspective would be very helpful to others, plus, you could receive support from the DB community.

Here

How to start a thread

I will use what Job wrote


First Click on Newcomers then:

Go to the top of the screen and there is a new topic box on the left hand side. Click on it and then you will open the window to create a new subject as well as a posting.

[SteveLW]

nd I have not filed because, if I do it before I find a sustainable job - my husband would have to pay alimony and kids support. It would take 40% of his pay and he would struggle financially, because he is reckless financially, has debt and just swings his credit card anytime he wants something. So, like I said, I do want to move on but I don't want to put sticks in his wheels while doing it. I want to live independent of him. I don't want his money. I don't really want to go into details about my marriage and take your thread over. Let's just say - he does not deserve to eat his cake either.

This is exactly my wife's excuse. Actually this is her way of ending the marriage with as little guilt as possible.

But yes you should start your own thread.

[MoveFrwd]

And it seems to be the running theme here, men don't really listen and take their wives seriously.

Windy -
Thank you for your well thought out post. There is a lot of very interesting thoughts.

The only point I want to address specifically is this one. At least for me, it was never that I didnt listen. But the changes were never organic - I could never understand the basis, and so I only would do them as long as my XW was pushing for them.

It was more that I didnt know HOW to listen than that I DIDNT listen. It was less a conscious decision I was making a more a lack of the necessary tools to be able to actually do the things being asked of me.

Im not using that as an excuse - in the end, it is just as much of a failure. My point is more that I needed something I didnt know that I was missing!

[SteveLW]

And it seems to be the running theme here, men don't really listen and take their wives seriously.

Windy -
Thank you for your well thought out post. There is a lot of very interesting thoughts.

The only point I want to address specifically is this one. At least for me, it was never that I didnt listen. But the changes were never organic - I could never understand the basis, and so I only would do them as long as my XW was pushing for them.

It was more that I didnt know HOW to listen than that I DIDNT listen. It was less a conscious decision I was making a more a lack of the necessary tools to be able to actually do the things being asked of me.

Im not using that as an excuse - in the end, it is just as much of a failure. My point is more that I needed something I didnt know that I was missing!

This nails it on the head. I read once in a book that husbands want to see their wives needs fulfilled. They want to give them what they desire. They just don't know how and you have to teach them.

[MoveFrwd]

I read once in a book that husbands want to see their wives needs fulfilled. They want to give them what they desire. They just don't know how and you have to teach them.

Yes, I wanted my XW's needs fulfilled.

But, I do not think it was her job to teach me step-by-step how to fill them. Frankly, I wasnt in a position where I felt I needed help in listening/responding/supporting/etc. No matter what she said, I wasnt going to be able to do/be what she needed. It took until the action of her wanting to leave that I actually took a look to consider my part in the degradation of our marriage. It was on me to understand that I needed help and education and to figure out where to get that - not on my XW.

My point to the original post was that it was never a case of me choosing to not listen (like the nodding boss), it was more that I didnt have the skills or drive to actually implement the changes.

[Element]

WindyC - thanks for your post. While I’m sure the specifics are different, there are many similarities in what my W would describe led her to feel the hopelessness to ultimately request a separation.

You know, it really hit home when you gave a comparison of a boss complaining of lateness over and over versus a W letting her H know of issues she has again and again. . For me, just like many men, I would respond with the right change at work, but the wrong response at home with my W.

Same goes for contentious issues. At work I listen and try to understand the other side and come to a win-win solution as much as possible. At home it can get heated and defensive, ending in a lose-lose scenario.

That blows my mind. Work is obviously important, but not more important than the wellbeing of my marriage. Yet my marriage is in shambles while my career flourishes.

I’m aware that I’ve more likely than not shown up far too late in marriage to be able to win my W back from that sense of hopelessness. I’m moving on as clearly what I’ve been doing hasn’t been working. If this was a work situation I would have moved on long ago. Obviously with marriage the emotions are hotter than work, but I really wished I could go back and changed the way I responded to my W back when she was grasping for me to be there for her. I feel crestfallen that I excelled at work while my marriage fell apart.

Thank you for your perspective.