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Posted By: rminer Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/01/18 12:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Accuray
I don't believe you're using the homeschooling as a lever to keep her in the house, but if you are I'd try to train yourself not to think of it that way.


I’m not, but she has always been very much gung-ho about it and would not want to give it up (I don’t think).

Originally Posted By: Accuray
This is not her decision alone to make -- you have an equal say in the matter, and if it goes in front of a judge you will likely prevail.


Very true. I like them homeschooled. I believe they get a better education than the schools around here can provide since they can learn at their own pace, but I do have to weigh the harm that could be done by being home with her at this point.

Originally Posted By: Accuray
Secondly, the responsibility for maintaining the relationship between your daughters and your wife does not fall on you. It also does not fall on your daughters -- it is your wife's responsibility.

Her current behavior of having tantrums and then doing "silent treatment" is immature in the extreme and should not be tolerated by anyone, including your daughters. That is toxic behavior and their lives would frankly be better off without that influence.

If she can't behave in a manner necessary to maintain her relationship with her adult children, that is her loss. Perhaps that loss will motivate her to do the work necessary to restore the relationships, or maybe she'll continue to regard herself as a victim forever.

Your daughter deserves a relationship with an emotionally healthy mother. If your W isn't up for that, your D is better off cutting her off.


You sound so much like D21. Were you listening to our conversation last night or something? D21 and I talked for over two hours last night about a lot of things, mainly this sitch. I originally went in to her room to give her my blessing on sending the text to her mom with some conditions (can’t sound like it is coming from me and to speak from the heart), but she opened up more than ever and I had to listen.

She said almost exactly what you said and told me about some observations she had made over the years. Most of them in my favor, surprisingly. D21 and I were always at odds until she was about 16. I didn’t know how to handle a young girl very well – I tried treating her like a boy. We had a blowout one night, some things were said and I felt like crap. I took her to dinner the next night to talk and apologize. We have been growing closer ever since.
D21 said that my W is never willing to change for anyone and she gives me credit for being able to do a little introspection and changing when I needed to (yes, one of her majors is psychology) – exactly the opposite of what I am being accused of from my W. There have been a couple of times D21 has hit me with the ‘ol 2x4 and made me realize some of my flaws that needed to change. She is a great D.

Anyway, we eventually got on the subject of a possible D. She was telling me how she felt her mother was very controlling and selfish most of the time. I told her that I was partially responsible for creating that monster through my actions (or inactions) over the years. Not for sympathy, but to let her know I know I’ve made mistakes. She stopped me and told what everyone here has been saying. I may not have been perfect, but these are her choices and I’m not forcing her in to anything. She is the one going out. She is the one destroying our M. She is the one tearing apart the family. She is the one losing her kids. I’m not responsible for her choices, so don’t take the blame for them. How the heck can a 21 year old see that and a 48 year old can’t? She is an awesome D.

D21 also told me that W barley talks to her mother anymore and when she does, she can be downright mean at times. She has NEVER been like that with her mother. In talking to her grandmother, D21 has been told that grandmother knows something is wrong too, but does not know what. No one is telling her either. D21 is thinking about making the 2.5 hour drive to see her to fill her in, but knowing how her grandmother would start nagging my W, she is hesitant. I don’t know that it would be a good idea yet because it would involve “others” that she didn’t choose, possibly compounding the problems.

She also went on to talk about D14 and S8 some more, telling me that they are fighting like crazy now. I said that I rarely see them fight. She told me that it happens when I am not at home. Her theory is that they are not getting enough attention from mom, so they are getting it any way they can. When I’m home, I give them some attention, so they don’t need to get it themselves.
D21 also doesn’t want to see a D because it would hurt the youngest two so much, but what is happening now could be even more harmful. She’s right.

Her other idea is to call my W’s best friend, her enabler, to ask what the heck is going on. She knows my W would get extremely pi$$ed but doesn’t care. I told her that the “friend” won’t tell her anything, so it might be best not to.

This girl wants this solved as much as I do it seems…



Link to previous thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2774980#Post2774980
Posted By: Subitai Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/01/18 12:45 PM
Wow. Very grown up observations for 21. I certainly didn't have it together like that back then!
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/01/18 03:20 PM
Neither did I!

She's always had a good head on her shoulders.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/02/18 11:42 AM
I need someone who can help me decipher a text exchange my wife and I had yesterday.

To start, her vehicle is having issues. I know I am not supposed to be doing things like this for her, but last Sunday I tried to repair it. It is a safety issue and D18 drives it as well, so I had to do it. It was fine for a few days, then D18 was driving it and it shut down. I went to get her and it drove home fine. That night W wants to go out and takes off in it. It shuts down again. She calls me pi$$ed off because it’s my fault, but manages to get it started and limps home with it.

Yesterday I found a place to take it for repair, but hadn’t yet told my W. She texts me about to ask if I had found a place and to try to arrange using my car to taxi the kids around. I was busy so it took a while to get back to her. I told her I did and that she could take it over if she wanted. This is where the fun starts.

She was instantly mad, and asked how she was “magically” supposed to do that. I said “drive it?” I thought that would end it because I figured there was no way she would do it. It was nearly 5pm, ten degrees out and the vehicle wouldn’t stay running. Well, she did try and didn’t make it.

Of course, I got an angry call and some texts about it. I told her that I never thought she would actually try to drive it over and I was going to have it towed when I got home. She said that I told her to drive it over, I replied something like “since when to do you do what I say?”

After that she started in on a little R talk. About how I never listened to her and didn’t believe her about the car. I told her that I did believe her, that’s why I tried to fix it. The fix didn’t work, so now we have to take it in. I was firm with what I was saying and continued to be firm, so I started out well.

W then stated “I can’t do this anymore.” I came back with more about the car, but I knew what she was talking about. She said “That’s not what I’m talking about.” I replied “I know. But you won’t communicate with me anymore.” She then started talking about how I never listen to her, how I always do whatever I want to do and she never has a voice in any important decision that is made. This is where I started to fall down.

I started to acknowledge her feelings on a few things and defend myself a bit. I brought up a few things she has done to me such as throwing away a very heartfelt birthday card I gave her. She replied that she still has it and that she would not throw it away.

I catch myself and start to toughen up (I hear sandi2 SCREAMING at me in my head) and she comes back with “I don’t know who you are any more,” “I’m hurt and don’t think we can fix this marriage anymore,” “seems like you give up and so do I,” and “I won’t leave because of the kids, but I cannot do this forever.”

I’m paraphrasing, but I told her that this marriage can be fixed if we both commit to doing it.

What do I make out of what she was saying?

Why wouldn’t she throw the card away? Does she still have feelings somewhere even though there is absolutely no reminder of our marriage in the house except me wearing my wedding ring?

SHE’S HURT? SHE is the one having the A, and SHE is the one that is HURT?!?!

She doesn’t think we can fix the marriage, is only sticking around for the kids but can’t do this forever. WTF is that supposed to mean? She is going to wait nine more years before she divorces me?

Can someone with experience please tell me what she was trying to say? I have put many meanings to it, but keep changing my mind on what she was really trying to do.

For those not familiar with my sitch, my W does not know that I know about the A. I was advised to not tell her yet.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/02/18 03:07 PM
R,

It’s all WW bs to make you look like the bad guy. If she was committed to fixing the marriage it could be fixed. That’s why I am a proponent of making it clear when an A is discovered that you will not be in an open marriage and share her with another man. If not she will leave you and blame you for it and the OM will mysteriously appear months down the road.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/02/18 03:41 PM
At this point I would just be making accusations about the A. I have no real proof to present to her. Just some texts I've seen and her behavior.

I want more than anything at this point, other than repairing the family, is to call her out on the A. If I do call her out right now she will just deny it and hide it even more.

If I could get her to admit it, that would be another story. She is a smart cookie, so tricking her in to it would be no easy task.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/02/18 11:33 PM
R,

Did you read PEW1973s thread or Chris73s thread? Like I told you in the beginning things have to get worse before they get better. She isn’t going to just snap out of it.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/03/18 09:00 AM
I can not find PEW1973, but I have read most of Chirs73's first thread. Was there a particular thread of his you were referring to?


Since I assume you are speaking of detachment, what does it feel like when you have detached.

I know I am not there, but more and more I just feel numb towards her. Like nothing she does bothers me and I have no interest. Other times she what she does irks the heck out of me.

Is this the start of detaching or developing an uncaring attitude towards her?
Posted By: winner Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/03/18 03:35 PM
I am not that great at detaching but I often will see a glimpse of it. When I see WAH and I genuinely feel joy, I know I am detaching. I smile and sing and mean it. He will often look at me and ask where I am going. He is starting to initiate conversations and looks sad most of the time or depressed. Then he will get irritable and removes himself. I miss him and I miss our family but he served me papers on tuesday. That is the reality. Today I spent 3 hours with my paralegal friend getting some documents ready. It made me feel extremely empowered but sad when I look at my whole life on papers. I am holding onto hope.....
Posted By: LH19 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/04/18 03:02 AM
The two of you are no where near detachment it takes a lot of time. Full detachment is obtained when you get to a place where you realize that you can’t control the other person you accept their decisions to move on and your ok with it. Nothing they do effects you. You are ok with the uncertainty in your life.

I can’t find PEWs thread I must have screen name wrong but the bottom line is he turned a blind eye to his Ws A and as far as I know a year later he is still suffering immensely.

In 3.5 years on here I have never seen anyone nice there way back. Those texts you saw are enough proof for me.
Posted By: Accuray Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/04/18 02:15 PM
Originally Posted By: rminer
I never listen to her, how I always do whatever I want to do and she never has a voice in any important decision that is made.


Look at that language -- is she an adult or a petulant teenager? Do you really *never* listen to her? Do you *always* do whatever you want to do? Does she *never* have a voice in any important decision?

If you want an interpretation, here it is: when people break up a family relationship, particularly when they're having an affair, they feel horribly guilty.

No one likes to think of themselves as a bad person, so eventually they begin to convince themselves it's not their fault. If it's not their fault, then someone made them do it.

The only other person in the relationship is you, so YOU must have made them do it. Then they selectively start looking for any evidence to support what they want to believe, and re-write history to line up with their narrative.

It's nonsense. Don't buy into it. Your response to that tantrum should be to ignore it.

Acc
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/04/18 03:40 PM
Originally Posted By: winner
I miss him and I miss our family but he served me papers on tuesday.


Sorry to hear that, winner. That must be tough. The part I'm most scared of is losing the family. I sisnt grow up in a close family, but my W and I worked hard to make ours that way. Watching it dissolve is killing me.

Joy, huh? I would have never thought of that emotion.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/04/18 03:50 PM
Originally Posted By: LH19
the bottom line is he turned a blind eye to his Ws A and as far as I know a year later he is still suffering immensely.



I can imagine he is I wouldn't be able to make it that long. I hesitate because I've read on here that it has to be "right" time. The only time I can get her alone is in the car occasionally. I don't want to do it there because i want to read her body language. Getting her to talk to me about anything other than the kids or finances is close to impossible right now.

Her mood has lightened a bit in the last few days, so maybe soon I can.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/04/18 03:55 PM
I can't disagree with what you said. She knows it's not true and I know it's not true.

What about the "I'm not leaving because of the kids, by I can't do this forever" part?

Just buying time and stringing me along I'd suppose?
Posted By: Accuray Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/05/18 04:13 AM
She's just verbalizing her internal debate. She wants out, she feels guilty about the kids. There's nothing about you in that statement.

Before you confront her about her affair, ask yourself what you hope to accomplish by doing so?

Some people hope for an apology or some kind of show of remorse, I will warn you in advance that you won't get it. What you'll get is denial and anger, and if you come up with hard evidence you'll get even more anger.

You can confront her if you want, but be prepared that the result you'll get is more anger and more distance.

Therefore, before you confront, you have to think about what happens after that? Let's pretend worst case scenario she says "Yes I'm having a sexual affair and I'm going to keep doing it and don't care what you think about it"

Although most WAS don't say that directly, that's what their actions say repeatedly.

What are you going to do or say then?

You can't control her, you can't stop her from doing that if she wants to, and you certainly don't want to be a doormat, so what are you going to do?

Once you answer that question, you may be better served by just skipping to your next step. If you were going to demand she move out, then just start there and skip over the confrontation because the end result will be the same.

Acc
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/09/18 08:01 AM
I am going to be in close proximity to the OM this evening and tomorrow at an event for my S8. My W will also be there since she helped set up the event.

The last time I saw the OM, he saw me and couldn't get away fast enough. This time though, he won't be able to leave so we will most likely encounter each other.

Question is, how should I handle it?

Should I avoid him or interact with him and act as if I know nothing?

If my W is with me at the time, is there anything I should/shouldn't do?

My plan is to just act as normal as I can, with the exception of maybe giving him a crushing handshake! mad

This isn't necessarily an opportunity to win her back, but it is an opportunity to make things worse.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/10/18 05:06 AM
Hi, just wanted to pop in and tell you I have not forsaken you. I've gotten behind in some of the threads, but I'm trying to catch up.

I read the rest of your previous thread, and I wanted to tell you that after reconsideration, I do agree that you were right in trying to deesculate the situation with your out of control W in the car. It was so pitiful to hear how it scared your little boy. How does he seem now?

You may feel the need to protect the relationships between the children and their mom, but you cannot take responsibility for her relationships with her kids. It may be painful, but trying to cover up or make excuses for your W's bad behavior, teaches kids to keep dark secrets and not talk about what goes on behind the doors at home. I suppose you would know better than anyone, b/c of your own tragic homelife growing up. Your youngest children may even need to meet with a counselor, just to have someone outside the family to talk about their feelings.

I completely agree with Accury's advice. I tell H's that confronting their W about another man or suspecting an A is nothing more than a warning. It tells her you are on to her A, and she'll take it deeper underground. As Accury said, she will most likely deny it and then her fury will be unleashed on you. Which, IMHO, is a dead give away. An innocent woman would be stunned or concerned that she had done something to make her H doubt her faithfulness.......and then, she would do anything to assure him she loved him, and only him. However, the W who is guilty of any type of an A, will either get very angry or she'll gaslight him and make him think he's imagining it all.....or tell him they are just friends.

We have had many posters who reported about confronting their W about her A......with proof in his hands. Even having pictures of them in bed.......and her denying it's an A. Oh, the stories of how they went to a motel and started to engage in sex......but that she just couldn't go through with it. One W claimed she and OM were in the middle of intercourse, and she stopped the guy and left the hotel.....b/c she felt so badly about what it would do to her H. smirk. Uh-huh.

Some H's want to confront, just to let the W know the he knows about it. Well, that's not a well though out plan. So what does he do after he reveals that he knows? What does he expect she'll do, once she knows her H is aware? See, this doesn't make sense to me, for a man to think that confronting his W with news he aware of her A will automatically cause an end to it. Even those rare accounts (I can count on one hand) that the W broke down and cried and promised to never see the OM again.......did not stick to her word. B/c it just doesn't work that way with a wayward W.

The H must have a plan. And the first thing is that the A must end the second he confronts his W. No more contact between the W and OM.......ever for the rest of their lives. That means she can't work with him, go to the same gym, let him coach her kids, share in community services together, attend the same social groups/friends, or go to the same church. If you don't believe me, then research affair addiction. The fact that you are concerned about how you should act around the OM, and your W and OM together........tells me you have no plan or idea of how to handle any of this.

By the time you get this post, last night will be over. So, you can tell us how it went.

Quote:
My plan is to just act as normal as I can, with the exception of maybe giving him a crushing handshake.

This isn't necessarily an opportunity to win her back, but it is an opportunity to make things worse.


I am thinking you accidentally left out a word when typing that last sentence. Being a man who has the NGS, I suspect you meant to say, "it is an opportunity to not make things worse". B/c that is how nice guys operate. They don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers or cause waves.......and although he will be thrown in the mix of OM and his W, he figures he'll just act as if everything is perfectly fine, so things won't get worse. Don't misunderstand. I'm not suggesting you should intentionally cause an embarrassing scene, or choose that occasion to tell OM you suspect an A. I'm just pointing out how a man with NGS thinks. You don't want to make things worse, so does that mindset cause you to put up with situations you should not have to tolerate?

I'll be fair and say you did not want to cause a public scene last night. At the same time, I'll ask you to examine yourself to see if this your approach toward most things in your life. You want to smooth things over, deesculate, prevent it from getting worse, etc. One would probably agree that makes good sense in most cases. We should conduct ourselves in a polite, civil manner.

Remember when I was talking about the Alpha vs the Beta male? The difference in their thinking about this situation would be that the Beta male would agree with you all the way on the decision to not do anything that might make things worse. Then he would keep his resentment and sense of injustice pushed down in his soul, like he normally does. However, the Alpha male would be more like......."I am not going to pussyfoot around and play nice with some guy I suspect of being inappropriate with my W". Again, I'm simply using this example in pointing out the differences in the two mindset. Most Alphas are much cooler than my example.

There are varying opinions in how to approach or deal with this stuff. Some say to ignore OM, drop the rope, act as if you are dumping her, and move forward in making a life for you and your kids. Some people say you should expose the affair, b/c covering for it is no solution.......plus it eats away at your self respect and confidence. I am just telling you that I have very little faith in the MR genuinely getting better by simply trying to wait out an affair to end. The issue that led her into an A with OM#1, will lead her into the next A, and the next, if the MR doesn't change. None of these suggestions are a quick fix to the MR. Sadly, some H's associate fixing their M problems with meaning his W ends her A. It is usually more complexed than just ending an A, and then everything bounces back to whatever was "normal" in the MR.

So, like I said, you need a plan based on your values, standards, principles, and spiritual beliefs. Decide what type of changes you need to make as a man. Get as much information as possible. Be realistic, maintain balance, and don't make some big move before checking here.......b/c you really could make things even worse.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/11/18 03:51 AM
sandi, thank you for responding. I thought that maybe my last response had offended you and caused you to throw your arms up and give up on me. 

Originally Posted By: sandi2
It was so pitiful to hear how it scared your little boy. How does he seem now?



Thank you for asking.   He seems better, but he is still upset with her.  This past week she has been in a much better mood (more on that later) and she has been paying more attention to him.   He has made a few more comments to me about not being happy with her, but I think she is trying to make it up to him.  Hopefully it continues.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
You may feel the need to protect the relationships between the children and their mom, but you cannot take responsibility for her relationships with her kids. It may be painful, but trying to cover up or make excuses for your W's bad behavior, teaches kids to keep dark secrets and not talk about what goes on behind the doors at home.



I'm beginning to realize that.  I have always wanted them to grow up with a "perfect" family life.  It's hard to watch it slip away.

The only thing I'm really covering up is the A. The rest they are picking up on their own.  After my last talk with D21 I've stopped defending her.  I'm not skewering her, but I'm not defending either.   To S8 I'm just telling him mom is going through a rough time in her life, but to remember that she still loves him.   Not sure how much he really needs to know at this point.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
The H must have a plan. And the first thing is that the A must end the second he confronts his W.


I don't have a solid plan yet.  Ive been thinking about it a lot, but haven't decided on anything yet.  I'm reading th DR book for the second time, so I will be putting something together soon. 

I've known about the A for almost two months. I think my W would probably use the against me saying i dont care. If it were reversed, I'm 95% she would have called me out by now.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
By the time you get this post, last night will be over. So, you can tell us how it went.



Both days were over by the time I saw this,  but I think it went fairly well. 

The first evening the OM and I were passing each other in a hallway, he said "hi," I said "hello," keeping a low tone and acting like he was of no concern to me.  Later he came up to S8 with me standing there and wished S8 happy birthday.  He then felt the need to explain to S8 and me that he keeps all of the kids' birthdays in a spreadsheet so he doesn't forget them. When he looked at me near the end of the explanation,  I just looked him in the eyes, made the "huh" sound and gave him the "you really don't want to be around me right now look."   He came up to me and my son again later and I gave him the same look.  He didn't come near us the rest of the night.   He only spoke to my W once that I saw. 

Today was a little different story.  The OM came to me on six occasions to talk.  Me alone two times, with S8 two times, with D14 once and with W once. The shortest interaction was when W was there.  I watched all day and he only spoke to W three times, all for less than 30 seconds. 

The approach I took today was similar to what the 37 rules say.  I wasn't unfriendly, but I didn't say much either.  I looked OM square in the eye and went for the "alpha" approach.  He had trouble keeping eye contact.  If that was from guilt or intimidation I don't know, but he was definitely the "beta" in the interactions.   The only time I strung together more than one sentence was when he was bragging about something.  I shut him down pretty quickly when he started.    After he left when D14 was present, D14 said "I've never liked him very much."   I must have had a big smile because she asked me what was so funny.

I'm not sure why he was so anxious to talk to me today - he has never approached me that much before.   Maybe he is trying to show me nothing is going on or maybe feels he knows me better now.  I'm really not sure.  It was strange though.  I did not expect that someone having an A with another man's wife would want to talk to the H so much.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
I am thinking you accidentally left out a word when typing that last sentence. Being a man who has the NGS, I suspect you meant to say, "it is an opportunity to not make things worse"



No, I meant it was an opportunity to make things worse.   If I don't like someone I have a tendency to be very blunt and say exactly what is on my mind and it has gotten worse over the past few months. I could see that happening and me tipping them off that I know about the A or worse.

I definitely didn't want to make a scene because that would have just embarrassed everyone. I didn't want to be chummy with him either for obvious reasons, so I tried to play it in the middle, but dominate.

I'm taking this "Alpha vs. Beta" thing to heart.  I've been very conscious of how I am presenting myself over the past two weeks, especially at home.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
plus it eats away at your self respect and confidence.



Yes, it does.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
I am just telling you that I have very little faith in the MR genuinely getting better by simply trying to wait out an affair to end. The issue that led her into an A with OM#1, will lead her into the next A, and the next, if the MR doesn't change.



This what I'm still not sure about.  What went wrong besides what you have pointed out?  She has said so many things, its hard to pinpoint what it was exactly.   I've got a few things in mind that I will mention in my next post.   This past week was interesting and I would like your opinion on it.  It may/may not tie in to what she is (was) actually looking for from me.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/13/18 11:14 AM
Quote:
I've known about the A for almost two months. I think my W would probably use the against me saying i dont care. If it were reversed, I'm 95% she would have called me out by now.


No, that's the thinking of a LBH, not a WW. However, you are right about things being reversed. She would not have tolerated an OW, like you've tolerated the OM. That's probably the differences in her personality and you being a nice guy. I have learned that that's how it usually goes with couples, when the H has NGS. I have observed this my entire life, and I studied the NGS, plus all the years of being on the board.....I definitely see a pattern in their relationships.

I think you did a decent job handling the public situation with the OM. I think he may have been fishing, to see if he could detect any vibes from how you interacted with him. Your W may have even said something about wondering if you know. But, that's idle guesswork.

I commend you for taking the Alpha vs Beta, seriously. FWIW, I married a very good man. He had the NGS. He still does, and always will to some extent. However, life has changed him a lot. It is much better if a man makes changes in himself, rather than wait for life to force it on him.

I am certain it is challenging to change, but it is very possible. There was a board member here for quite a few years, who admits to being the nicest of nice-guys. He learned to change the dynamics in his MR, and I assume in his other relationships as well. His first user name was Ole Chocolate Eyes, then he changed to Puppy Dog Tails, and finally to Starsky. I think his old threads were deleted, and I haven't seen him post in a long time. But, if you ever run across one of his old posts, grab it. He is a star to many who traveled through the forums on this board.
Posted By: Deckard Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/14/18 09:21 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2

His first user name was Ole Chocolate Eyes, then he changed to Puppy Dog Tails, and finally to Starsky. I think his old threads were deleted, and I haven't seen him post in a long time. But, if you ever run across one of his old posts, grab it. He is a star to many who traveled through the forums on this board.


Starsky, and sandi2, are on my Mount Rushmore of these forums. You can see Starsky posts here:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=28254
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/14/18 01:09 PM
Thank you Deckard. I thought Starsky309 was a different poster.

I plan on reading his posts!
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/14/18 03:47 PM
Originally Posted By: rminer
I've known about the A for almost two months. I think my W would probably use the against me saying i dont care. If it were reversed, I'm 95% she would have called me out by now.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
No, that's the thinking of a LBH, not a WW.



So are you saying that you don't think she would use me knowing about the A and not saying anything about it against me?  My guess is, at some point when and how I found out will come out.  I don't want it to make me me look weaker in her eyes.



Originally Posted By: sandi2
I commend you for taking the Alpha vs Beta, seriously.



Funny thing is, I've always seen myself as Alpha. Growing up, all the other kids followed me, which continued through college. I've been called a "Natural Leader" more times than I can count.  The more I look at my life, the more I can see that I've lost it somewhere along the way.

The OM would not be seen as Alpha by any other male, so I'm not sure why my W would see him this way, which I'm assuming she does.  He has very feminine qualities and mannerisms that no guy would yield to.

If a male wouldn't see him as Alpha, why would a female?
Posted By: joejoe1 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/14/18 05:03 PM
Rminer,

It doesn't matter if your W sees him as alpha. Its you trying to find logic in her choice. Her choice might never make sense to you. She's most likely not thinking logically. Sometimes a WW likes to deal with a man that is totally opposite of their H. In their mind going opposite will get them away for the type of man that has caused her so much pain.

Its not about alpha or beta. Its about you making a choice to become a man only a fool would leave. And if you are an alpha, when does an alpha ask questions, questioning another mans qualities? Be strong! Be confident! Stop comparing yourself to the OM. It will only drive you crazy. She chose him for her reasons and none Of them was to please you are get your approval ( I'm saying because it her decision, and she might never be able to tell you why).

Stop giving the OM head space so you can heal. The faster you are not worrying about him, the stronger you will look to your W.

Onward and forward
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/14/18 05:09 PM
Well, the relationship between your W and OM is not natural. He is probably doing a lot of sweet talking to her and building her ego. That rocks along for a while, where they are flirting and feeding each other's ego. If they are together enough, she will start to see his Beta. Unless they work on some project, are thrown together is a community situation, she may not have a good opertunity to observe it. But don't let what the OM has or doesn't have become your focus.

Right now, you need to work a an alternative plan to use if you decide to confront your W. I tell H's they can expect anything at confrontation. That is when most women give the bomb drop and claim they have not be in love for years. They do 't want to be in the M, but they don't want to leave the house. Whatever you decide, DO NOT AGREE TO IN-HOUSE SEPARATION. IT LIKE LIVING ON DEATH ROW. Whatever arrangements can made be made........do not stay under the same roof together.

You may want to check about your house, how easily it might sell, or what you would need to do. Also check with a lawyer to see how or if it hurts your case by leaving the house (if the WW absolutely refuses to budge). Depending on the severity of the living conditions, men often have to make choices as to which is the worst hell. Know what I mean?

If you approach you W about her affair, you need to be prepared for her deny everything and claim they "are just friends". But in many cases, this is the time the W will announce that she has been unhappy for a long time and has been considering taking time off........or whatever ridiculous excuse she uses.

And some come out with both guns, ready for a show down. She may demand to know your source of information.........but do NOT give it to her, and never tell her how you knew about the affair.

Have your ducks in order, b/c that will help you feel more organized and confident. If she should break down a cry and say she's sorry, etc. Take it all with a big grain of salt, b/c she is more sorry about getting caught. You can ask her if she is willing to end all contact with the other man........forever, and never see him again. And ask her if she is willing to work with you to save the M, and to go to MC of your choosing. If she is.....fine, everyone goes home. If not, then you tell her to find another place to stay, and you go home. None of this is anything in stone, but it makes a reasonable statement, and I would think........shake up your WW just a little.

No matter how anything goes, you need to act cool and as if you have an ace up your sleeve. Don't show all your cards to her. Which doesn't seem normal when you are M to the woman, but these are not normal times, and you need to stay a step ahead of her. Most H'sare not mentally prepared for the W's behavior, or something she throws at him. H's are always saying she caught him totally unaware. So, I'm telling to expect the worst, and have all your bases covered.

Here's the biggest lie we here the most used in these situations with the WW and OM. She claims they are only friends. The H should stand up to her and say, "Then if I am not comfortable with you having a friendship with another man......you have no problem deleting this friendship, for the sake of our M, right"? And this is when she starts claiming the H should have no right to tell her who she can friends with and who she can't. Ahhhh, she gives herself away. What loving W would choose a friend -ship over her marriage relation.ship ? Only a wayward W who has a hidden agenda with her new "friend". And it takes priority over her husband.

So, if you confront her, prepare as if you were going into war (I mean to be prepared for anything). Do not attack, and don't approach when your anger is too high. It is important to think calmly and use your grit. It is more important that she sees you being a strong, confident man in charge, rather than a soft, forgivng weakling that she can wrap around her finger by shedding a few tears. She may react quietly and announce she's been thinking of a D for a long time. But generally, the stories we hear on the board do not go that easily. Let me remind once more, never reveal your source of intell. Even years after you reconcile, don't tell her.

If she up on her high horse too much, and she is getting out of hand, making threats, etc., It's time to shut it down. I've heard of women calling the cops for the least little thing, or make some trumped up charges against her H. When is something going to be done about this men? When is law enforcement going to start helping the H's and fathers, instead of automatically believing the woman's story?

Anyway, as you can see, there is a lot to consider when you confront your spouse about OM.

It seldom settles anything, but opens the door to further stuff.
Posted By: Accuray Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/15/18 03:31 AM
Totally agree with Sandi -- you must have a plan and your "what happens next" fully thought through.

Originally Posted By: rminer
So are you saying that you don't think she would use me knowing about the A and not saying anything about it against me? My guess is, at some point when and how I found out will come out. I don't want it to make me me look weaker in her eyes.


The false-thinking of the LBS is that you are on the WAS radar at all. They are spending zero thought cycles thinking about you.

They are focused on getting what they want, which is usually emotional distance from you, and more time with their affair partner(s). That's all they think about.

You knowing about her affair is a mere inconvenience and she's going to focus on blowing past it using every means at her disposal, but primarily somehow making you the bad guy -- accusing you of spying on her, accusing you of being irrational, jealous, controlling, etc. etc.

Acc
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/15/18 03:48 AM
I see what you are saying. My plan is not complete, so I am holding off on calling her out.

I know my W, and I could easily see her saying "You've known this long and didn't say anything? You obviously don't care about this marriage."

I know that would be more BS, but it most likely would be used that way.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/15/18 05:17 AM
Quote:
I know my W, and I could easily see her saying "You've known this long and didn't say anything? You obviously don't care about this marriage."


I don't mean to sound as if I am telling you that you don't know your W. I am trying to tell you that the wayward mindset does not go in the direction you described above. Oh, she might throw something at you that's just as crazy sounding......but it will be to get herself out of the hot seat and put you it in it. Nowhere is the thinking you've described above, the mindset of a WW. In fact, I have my first time to hear of anyone report that's how his WW responded when she was confronted about an A.

I don't know that you have a full concept of the depth that your W has changed, not only her behavior, but her way of thinking. She is not the girl you M. This change in her did not happen overnight. It was slowly a work in progress. Seeds of unresolved resentment were planted in her heart, and those took root to bear other negative feelings, including disrespect toward you as her H. For the most part, you did not know about it......or at least, to the extent. Most women who try to be a good W will not reveal that she has those type of issues in her heart. Nevertheless, it was brewing. Eventually, something happens.......maybe just the daily grind of life......but she crosses a line that can't be ignored.

She is not going to be upset at you for not calling her out about an A sooner! She is cheating.........and that's not the way cheaters think or operate. I'm not saying she won't try to find something to make you out to be the bad guy, b/c the WW wants to feel justified in doing what she's doing........but I highly doubt she is going to get mad b/c you kept things to yourself. In fact, she is counting on your old passivity. She is not expecting you to do anything unusual. If you should discover her A, she figures you won't say anything, or it won't go beyond a discussion......and you'll be back to you old passive style.

IMHO, I think what you really mean, is that she'll be upset that you didn't fight for the M, by stopping her in her tracks. Again, this is not how waywards think. They don't want you fighting for the M. That's why they keep the A private. Most of them want out of the MR, so why would they want their S fighting to save it? They want to keep their A secret for a reason. Trust me, this is no ploy she has in making you spring into action and fight OM for the honor of your W. And, if she should tell you she only wanted to make you jealous.........she's lying.

Anyway, you must stop this type of useless doubting of what she's likely to think or feel. Until you learn more about the mindset of a WW........you will be as far off target as you could get.

Misunderstanding her mindset is just one of the reasons I told you to prepare as if going into war. Never underestimate your WW, and think she won't stoop lowly and take full advantage of you and your love. She already has. Never fool yourself by assuming her love for you or the kids will bring her back. Never think if you'll just show her how much you care for her, it will change her mind and turn her back around. Never fall into the trap of believing that being her friend, while she is having an A, will win you back into her heart.

I know this must be very difficult for you. The whole thing must seem bizzarr. You never dreamed this could be your W, right? I never dreamed it could be me, either. The better educated you are about the wayward mindset, the better you will be equipped to deal with it more successfully.

BTW, I have a few threads on the subject of the WW's mindset, if you are interested. It might give you a little insight from the WW point of view.
Posted By: TBSakaJ9 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/15/18 05:30 AM
RM.....I can't give you any better advice than Sandi or ACC but I know from my experience it took me a few months before I realized how far gone my W was. It still amazes me today about 2 months away from our D being final. I will never understand how this all happened. If your W says something like you mentioned she will probably say it to turn the tables on you in attempt to deflect any responsibility on her part.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/15/18 07:03 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
IMHO, I think what you really mean, is that she'll be upset that you didn't fight for the M, by stopping her in her tracks.



Yes, this is what I was trying to say.



Originally Posted By: sandi2
I know this must be very difficult for you. The whole thing must seem bizzarr. You never dreamed this could be your W, right? I never dreamed it could be me, either. The better educated you are about the wayward mindset, the better you will be equipped to deal with it more successfully.



This is NOT my W. She is a completely different person now, and I can't see how the woman I knew turned in to what she is now.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
BTW, I have a few threads on the subject of the WW's mindset, if you are interested. It might give you a little insight from the WW point of view.



I have read them all, and it has helped, but I obviously have not fully grasped it.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/15/18 07:04 AM
So many mixed signals though. I am typing a post about it as we speak because she has me very confused.
Posted By: Deckard Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/15/18 07:10 AM
rminer,

I think you not only need a plan for telling her you know, but figuring out your boundries, including financial boundries.

I pulled these from Starsky posts. The first is thinking about a boundry, and the second is enforing a boundry.

Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Think of it this way. I saved this post from another poster here named Jayne, who summed up boundaries just about the best and clearest way I've ever read:

Jayne, on “boundaries”:

Think about boundaries like this:

Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, because boundaries are about drawing "circles" around *you* and determining what you will and won't allow inside that circle.

Your WxH can do whatever he wants OUTSIDE that circle. You are not telling him what to do.

But you will only let into that circle people who treat you with respect.

He's free to go on treating you with disrespect, but you won't know about it because he'll be outside your circle. He's free to go on and draw his own boundaries of no expectations and no responsibilities, outside your circle.

He can do WHATEVER he wants. He's a free person, free to make WHATEVER choices he wants.

BUT SO ARE YOU, and you are free to choose who to allow within your circle.

That's all. Not about trying to control him at all. Tell him he's totally free. He has the WHOLE WORLD, outside your circle, to go and do whatever he wants.

If he's saying you have to let him into your circle no matter what, then THAT is about HIM controlling YOU.





Originally Posted By: Starsky309
The first time my then-wayward wife stayed out with "a group of friends" (and it was with a group, but OM was part of the group) she said she "wouldn't be home late," and texted me as I remember about 10:30 that night that she'd be out a little later, and ended up coming home at 11:15 or something.

The second time, she also said she wouldn't be home late, and came home past midnight. I then told her (and this was after I had exposed her affair, so she knew I knew) that "this isn't a hotel, if you're going to be out past midnight don't bother coming home. It's disrespectful to me, and disruptive to the kids to have you coming home that late."

The third time, it was 2am and I had shut all of the house lights off -- inside and out -- and armed the home security system. She got the message, and never did it again.


Starsky
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/15/18 09:57 AM
I hadn't seen the first quote yet. That is helpful.

I had seen the second one.

I have started on boundries, mainly with the way she is talking to the family (kids and myself).

As far as making a plan to tell her, I still need to decide where I should start, meaning do I start with financial repercussions since she is a stay at home mom and has some of her own bills that I pay, or should I have her/me move out?

I've spoken to an atty, but have come up with a few more questions that I need answered, such as the affect of me vs. her moving out.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/15/18 10:16 AM
As I mentioned in an earlier post, it has been an interesting week and a half.

My W and I had a text exchange two weeks ago today, and she started bringing up R stuff. She said a few things in the exchange and has both said and done a few things since that has me curious as to what is going on and what she is thinking.

It was a fairly long exchange, so I am going to give the highlights to keep it shorter.

As a recap:

Her vehicle was having issues and she was complaining about it. I had a place I was going to have it towed to that evening, but when she started complaining I told her she could drive it herself. I didn’t actually think she would, but she did and broke down when she was driving it there. This is after I tried the most common repair for the issue myself. I got an angry phone call and then some angry texts.

I started out strong, keeping her in “her place” not taking her cr@p, but then things started to go to the R. She said things like “I can’t do this anymore,” “You never hear what I am saying,” “I talk and you do whatever you want,” and “You’re in control of everything and I feel like I have no voice in anything important.” Typical things that a WW will say.
She went on to say that she was very hurt over the incident in the car, which I did not respond to and that “Sometimes I don’t even know who you are anymore.”

She then said that I went from not really paying attention to her to three weeks of being thoughtful and now just being mad at her all of the time (these three weeks she is referring to was before I found DB). She brought up that I said I wasn’t going to give up on her and was going to show her that I love her some way (again, before I got here).

She went on to say that “I’m terribly hurt and don’t think we can fix this marriage anymore. Seems like you give up and so do I. I won’t leave because of the kids, but I cannot do this forever.”

I stumbled a bit, as I said in my previous post, by telling her I understand she feels that way, telling her we both hurt, she does not communicate with me anymore, our conversations are restricted to business only and I do value her opinion. I also mentioned some things she had done that seemed to be directed at hurting me such as throwing away her birthday card. She gave me a surprise response to this and said that she didn’t throw the birthday card away, and that she “wouldn’t do that.” I finished the R part of the conversation by saying that our marriage can be saved if we are both willing to do it.

From there it was back to me being stronger after realizing what I was doing.

The recurring theme in her messages since this began is basically what I posted above, but she always seems to bring up me not hearing her, not doing things with her and the three weeks I gave her a ton of attention.


Now the interesting part. At least to me.


The next day, it was a typical day between us – minimal talking, business only. Because her vehicle was in the shop, she drove me to work that day and Saturday so she could go grocery shopping and get the kids where they needed to be. When she picked me up, she was in a good mood, singing to the radio when I got in. Conversation was minimal the rest of the day though. Saturday morning on the way to work, there was almost nothing said – just typical pleasantries. When she picked me up Saturday evening it was a different story.

When I got in the car, she immediately asked how my day was; I didn’t give a long reply and asked the same of her. The rest of the way home, she talked to me like normal. We had a pleasant conversation about a lot of things, but nothing personal. It was limited to traffic, kids, weather, how her friend needs to divorce her husband (ironically, for treating her the same way my W is treating me, minus the A). At one point she said “I need to steal your car tonight to go to “restaurant” with “friend’s name.” I gave her the “seriously?” look. In my mind I had figured out why she was being so nice. The rest of the ride she kept talking like we used to.

When we got home, she was still talking and in a good mood. When W went in the bedroom, D14 asked me what was up with W. I said she’s been really nice since she picked me up. D14 responded “she wants your car,” so I wasn’t the only one thinking it. W asked again, and I was expecting a battle. I told her “no” because I had promised D14 and S8 that I would take them to a movie that night. She said “ok, could you drop me off then and ‘friend’s name’ will give me a ride home.” I said that that didn’t work for me. A few minutes later, she said her friend was picking her up, so not to worry about it and was not mad at all. I watched out the window when she left, and it was her friend, not the OM.

The next day I was off and was putting on my clothes to work outside when my W offered to make me breakfast. I said “that would be nice” and thanked her. After I ate, I thanked her again. The rest of the day was the same way. She was nice, joking and talkative. This continued for the rest of the week. She talked, joked, made sure she made enough food for everyone for dinner and started paying more attention to S8 and D14. We never talked about “us” or alone, but she was almost like her old self. She text me every day, which is something she hadn’t been doing. Every text was only business though, and I continued to wait to acknowledge them and gave short replies. The first night of the event we went to where the OM was there, we had a lot of snow so the roads were bad. She asked me to be careful like she still cared about my safety.

Saturday rolled around and she was fine until midafternoon. This is when she announced that she was going out with “friend’s name” again. Because of the vehicle repair and a few unexpected expenses, funds were very, very low. I asked how she was planning on paying for it. “Money” was the response. I told her that wasn’t a good enough answer and she said that she had some cash. I then said that going out with almost no money in the bank and not enough food in the house for the next week was not a good idea. I also told her the kids should be the priority. She came back with “Oh, that’s right, I don’t do anything for the kids. I was up until 3am getting things ready for the event today while you were sleeping.” I simply replied “I didn’t say you don’t do anything for the kids, but going out when there is no money for food is not fair to the kids.” That was the end of the conversation. She did not talk to me the rest of the day, and, of course went out anyway.

The next day, Sunday, she was a little grumpy in the morning, but as the day went on she got back to being like she was the week before. She continued being nice, talking and making sure there was enough food makde the next three days. She even served me birthday cake twice. She hasn’t done anything like that since November.

One of the days, I can't remember which, my W, D14, D18 and S8 were in the kitchen talking and one of the kids said that they loved snow, just not the cold. My W looks at me and says "I hate the cold too. When are you going to get me out of this God forsaken state?" I answered "I always though that would happen when our parents are gone." She came back with "I only see my mother once a year as it is. I can do that from anywhere I live, so we can go right now."

Then came Valentine’s Day. I was off, so I saw her when she woke up on the couch. She was playing on her phone and I said “good morning.” She didn’t reply. Later, I said something to her again. No response. I noticed she had headphones in, so I thought maybe she hadn’t heard me earlier, so I waived at her to get her attention. She took out the headphone and I asked if S8 still had Karate today. She was short and not very nice with her response and said “if he wants to go.” She was the same way the rest of the day and right back to the way she was two weeks ago. We did not acknowledge that it was Valentine’s Day with each other. In full disclosure, I did come and go from home a few times to run errands and I did not tell her I was leaving or where I was going.

This morning she sends a text “Thanks for fixing the sink. Please don’t pretend like you want to work on anything with me though. You obviously can’t stand to even be around me.”


A couple of questions on this.


Why did she start being nice to me and the kids? Was it something I said? Guilt? Lure me back in? Insanity? I initially thought that maybe she thought about what I said and decided to wade back in, but now I’m not so sure.


She said a few things throughout the week that indicated she still had feelings. When she said that she didn’t throw away her birthday card, she also said that she WOULDN’T do that. Why wouldn’t she if we are through.


Why would she be thinking of the future with me by moving to another state? Is this just idle talk or a hint?


She told me to be careful driving. She hasn’t shown ANY concern for my health or safety since this all began. Why the momentary change of heart?


Almost two weeks of niceness and back to venom? Is she mad that I skipped Valentine’s Day? It has never been a major thing for us – ever. Usually just exchange cards.


During this time was she trying to tell me she wanted to talk and I missed it? She never once said she did, and all of our conversations were in front of and/or involved the kids. We never got close to the R subject in that time and never talked about anything personal. We were never alone at any time. Was she waiting for me to make a move?


Is this all part of the “normal” process?


I know that she is not the woman I M. Not even close. I can’t comprehend how she could change so much, but I am taking your word for it. I’m trying to understand it, but this is unlike anything I have ever seen.


Accuray, I know you have answered some of these questions in my previous post and I thank you. I am not discounting your answers in any way. Please keep answering my posts with your views as I do value them.


I would, however, like sandi’s views on this as well since she once walked the path my W is.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/16/18 03:51 PM
Originally Posted By: rminer
During this time was she trying to tell me she wanted to talk and I missed it? She never once said she did, and all of our conversations were in front of and/or involved the kids. We never got close to the R subject in that time and never talked about anything personal. We were never alone at any time. Was she waiting for me to make a move?



Let me rephrase this. I know she probably didn't want to talk, but was she reaching out in any way? So much of what she said and did seemed genuine. I didn't ignore her, but I did keep things polite and let her do most of the talking.

Nothing negative, no arguments other than the night she went out and I called her out. We didn't argue, I just made my point about it.

The way she turned back on Valentine's day has me wondering.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/17/18 04:05 AM
Originally Posted By: rminer

This morning she sends a text “Thanks for fixing the sink. Please don’t pretend like you want to work on anything with me though. You obviously can’t stand to even be around me.”

This is her gas lighting you trying to make you feel like the bad person.

A couple of questions on this.


Why did she start being nice to me and the kids? Was it something I said? Guilt? Lure me back in? Insanity? I initially thought that maybe she thought about what I said and decided to wade back in, but now I’m not so sure.
Probably a little of all the above accept her wading back in. This will not happen while the A is going on.

She said a few things throughout the week that indicated she still had feelings. When she said that she didn’t throw away her birthday card, she also said that she WOULDN’T do that. Why wouldn’t she if we are through.
Of course she has feelings for you. You are the father of her children. Don't mistake that for wanting to work on the marriage.

Why would she be thinking of the future with me by moving to another state? Is this just idle talk or a hint?
Idle talk.

She told me to be careful driving. She hasn’t shown ANY concern for my health or safety since this all began. Why the momentary change of heart?
Probably just force of habit. Slip up maybe.

Almost two weeks of niceness and back to venom? Is she mad that I skipped Valentine’s Day? It has never been a major thing for us – ever. Usually just exchange cards.
Your'e mind reading which is pointless at this juncture.

During this time was she trying to tell me she wanted to talk and I missed it? She never once said she did, and all of our conversations were in front of and/or involved the kids. We never got close to the R subject in that time and never talked about anything personal. We were never alone at any time. Was she waiting for me to make a move?
Not sure what you mean. A sexual advance?

Is this all part of the “normal” process?
Nothing normal about this process at all.

I know that she is not the woman I M. Not even close. I can’t comprehend how she could change so much, but I am taking your word for it. I’m trying to understand it, but this is unlike anything I have ever seen.


Accuray, I know you have answered some of these questions in my previous post and I thank you. I am not discounting your answers in any way. Please keep answering my posts with your views as I do value them.


I would, however, like sandi’s views on this as well since she once walked the path my W is.


R,

There was a poster recently on here name Hermes. (check out his thread). His W was in an open A that he new about. He tried to nice his way back into the relationship, cleaned the house, bought her gifts, planned her business trips, ran her baths etc. Needless to say it did not end well for him. One of his last couple posts he wrote about his number one regret was that he didn't kick her cheating ass out of the house the minute he found out about the A.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/17/18 05:51 AM
Originally Posted By: LH19
Originally Posted By: rminer


During this time was she trying to tell me she wanted to talk and I missed it? She never once said she did, and all of our conversations were in front of and/or involved the kids. We never got close to the R subject in that time and never talked about anything personal. We were never alone at any time. Was she waiting for me to make a move?

Originally Posted By: LH19
Not sure what you mean. A sexual advance?



No, not sexual. Going back to the way I was during the three weeks I was tripping over myself to try to win her back or make some other grand gesture to show her I want her back.




Originally Posted By: LH19
There was a poster recently on here name Hermes. (check out his thread). His W was in an open A that he new about. He tried to nice his way back into the relationship, cleaned the house, bought her gifts, planned her business trips, ran her baths etc. Needless to say it did not end well for him. One of his last couple posts he wrote about his number one regret was that he didn't kick her cheating ass out of the house the minute he found out about the A.



Just to be clear, I did not fix the sink because she asked me to, which she didn't. I fixed it because I used it and it was backed up. All I did was snake the drain and it was working again. A whole five minute process.

Right now I'm sticking to the 37 rules. I'm not doing "H" things for her unless absolutely necessary and I am setting boundaries, at least personal ones and for the kids.

I know you keep saying I should kick her out. While I would love to make that strong of a statement, there are other things at play that I need to get answers to from an atty. Until that happens, I won't be kicking her out.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/17/18 06:09 AM
R,

I am cool with you checking with an attorney first.

What I am trying to do is to get you to not waste any mental energy with what she is saying or doing.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/17/18 11:49 AM
Are you giving off cold and mad vibes toward her? When we say don't try to nice her back, detach, etc...........we don't mean you are suppose to be cold and give off angry vibrations. As far as she knows, you know nothing about her having an A with OM.......so, if you are coming off as cold/mad at her, then you are just looking like a jerk. Detaching is not giving off these type of vibes.

A wayward wife is very much like a wayward child. If there are no enforced boundaries, no consequences, etc........then her actions can lead to a lifestyle of pain and destruction.
It is not easy for her H and family members. She is can be a manipulator by using only two cards. She will accuse the H of trying to control her or have his own way about everything........or she will lay a guilt trip on him. So, staying balanced while he attempts to lead in the family/home and steer his MR back to a healthy place......is no easy task.

I have seen a lot of newcomer H's who simply did not know how to show strength, detaching, standing up to his W, etc., without acting cold/mad/sullen. They did not know how to separate the picture of detaching from cold/angry. If this is the case with you, then she will not see your strength. All she will see is the cold/mad/sullen behavior. Make sense? Just as you cannot nice her back into being the old W you want, neither can you act punitive, mean, cold, sullen, etc., and expect her to fall into your arms.

After reading your recent post about the car conversation, and seeing some of your comments, I am seeing something surface that I either missed, or it has not previously come up in your posts.

Quote:
Her vehicle was having issues and she was complaining about it. I had a place I was going to have it towed to that evening, but when she started complaining I told her she could drive it herself. I didn’t actually think she would, but she did and broke down when she was driving it there.


So, I'll start here with some questions. How long had she complained about her car before you tried to repair it? In all honesty, was not having it fixed sooner some attempt to keep her from meeting up with OM? Did you actually tell her your plans to have it towed that evening? I am not finding fault here, but trying to get clarification.

Quote:
I started out strong, keeping her in “her place” not taking her cr@p, but then things started to go to the R. She said things like “I can’t do this anymore,” “You never hear what I am saying,” “I talk and you do whatever you want,” and “You’re in control of everything and I feel like I have no voice in anything important.” Typical things that a WW will say.
She went on to say that she was very hurt over the incident in the car, which I did not respond to and that “Sometimes I don’t even know who you are anymore.”


Okay, let's look at this and see if we can determine how much is true and what is b.s. guilt card playing tactics. First, she associated the situation of you not getting her car fixed (in whatever she felt was a reasonable frame of time) with past experiences with you. Now, being a man, you may only focus on the part of that sentence about not getting the car fixed. I am asking you to take your focus off the car for a moment and hear what I hear her saying. "You never hear what I am saying"......is your W emotionally relating to past incidents and connecting them to the current one. I guarantee every woman on this board will agree with me. She is very frustrated at a continual issue that has not ended. That being that you don't listen with your heart. You may vaguely hear her words......but, apparently, she feels you do not take them seriously. "I talk and you do whatever you want to do", is her saying that she feels her views are not considered, appreciated, or respected. By ""doing whatever you want", sounds as if you look like a jerk or bully in her eyes. "You're in control of everything and I feel like I have no voice in anything important", sounds as if she has not felt very valued when it came to important decisions. Bottom line is that only you know if you have given her cause to feel devalued. If you have been guilty of these accusations in the past, then I can see how it would breed a lot of resentment in her heart. I think you need to do some deep self-evaluation.

Frankly, I can't help but think what she said is true to some degree. I am saying this really had very little to do with the car. It goes deeper. I don't think this issue of you never listening to her would have risen to the surface, if it had not been brewing for a long time. IMHO, it's these type of incidents that cause men to shake their heads at women, b/c he sees her making a huge deal out of having a car fixed. (Remember me talking about unresolved issues causing resentment that is pushed down into her heart). The deal with the car not being fixed sooner, was the straw that broke the camel's back. Make sense?

Now, if I'm wrong and everything she said was nothing more than fabrication, then mark it off as her playing the guilt card on you. Maybe it's a little of both, you think? At any rate, do some soul searching, b/c too many H's see this type of "cr@p" from their W as nagging. Based on what they've heard passed down through other men......this is what W's do. They nag. So, the H shruggs if off, and it turns into resentment and is bedded in her heart. Whenever something else comes up to trigger these resentful feelings, she will react in the same manner. She doesn't see him changing, and he writes it down to being something much farther from the truth.

Quote:
She then said that I went from not really paying attention to her to three weeks of being thoughtful and now just being mad at her all of the time (these three weeks she is referring to was before I found DB). She brought up that I said I wasn’t going to give up on her and was going to show her that I love her some way (again, before I got here).


Could you tell if she appeared let down when you stopped doing special things for her? Refresh my mind, how did she respond during that time you were showering her with attention? I'm not saying to start doing it again, at least not right now. I am looking at something I have not seen in your story, until now.

Quote:
She went on to say that “I’m terribly hurt and don’t think we can fix this marriage anymore. Seems like you give up and so do I. I won’t leave because of the kids, but I cannot do this forever.”


How did you respond when she mentioned how you went from paying her attention to being mad at her all the time? To me, it sounds as the next quote was said b/c she wasn't getting much recognition from you......at least, verbally.

Quote:
The recurring theme in her messages since this began is basically what I posted above, but she always seems to bring up me not hearing her, not doing things with her and the three weeks I gave her a ton of attention.


Then I tend to believe this is something she has needed for a long time. And I am not saying it is definitely the reason she is in an A, but can you understand how it could leave her vulnerable to another man's attention?

I think you attempted to validate her feelings, but it failed. It failed b/c even I can see through it. You did not "understand" her feelings. If you understood you would stop repeating the same offenses that hurt them. It is actually better to not say anything, than to tell a woman you know how she feels. And then......you added how both of you were hurt. That's true, but it was bad timing. She's trying to express her hurt and frustration at the moment, and trying to tell you what is causing it.......and guess what? You are not listening!! At least, not with your heart.

I was going to comment on several of the next paragraphs in your post, but I don't really see anything more than tit-for-tat behavior. From her point of view, you probably looked just as bad as she looked from your view point.

Quote:
Why did she start being nice to me and the kids? Was it something I said? Guilt? Lure me back in? Insanity? I initially thought that maybe she thought about what I said and decided to wade back in, but now I’m not so sure.


Well, from what you reported, I don't think it had anything to do with you. And, I really don't think it was guilt. Having guilt requires feeling a certain amount of remorse......and she has not reached that point yet.......if she's having an A. I believe I can safely say she was not trying to "lure you back in". Insanity? Who knows. The things you pointed out, such as to how many times she took you birthday cake.....to saying she would never throw away a card from you.......to telling you to be careful driving, is a man over-focused on the small stuff. I mean, where I live, telling someone to be careful is just another way of saying good-bye. You took its meaning way too seriously. It's more habit than anything else, so don't waste energy pondering over little things like that.

It is more important for you to stop repeating the things you've done to cause so much resentment. For instance, the fact she has felt forced to live in a place she hates. I have lived in a lot of different places. While I loved some, and a few I hated. Environment, weather, culture differences, etc., plays a big factor with some people. The way your W sees you refusing to move away from the cold weather state, is you being stubborn, maybe even a little selfish and not wanting to do something she feels is important to her overall well being and happiness. Now, how much difference it would actually make in her, IDK. But these factors have caused significant resentment for a long time, and it apparently had no affect in your decision to stay in the place she hates to live. What if it was reversed and you had to live wherever she decided?

Quote:
During this time was she trying to tell me she wanted to talk and I missed it? She never once said she did, and all of our conversations were in front of and/or involved the kids. We never got close to the R subject in that time and never talked about anything personal. We were never alone at any time. Was she waiting for me to make a move?


I suggest you stop thinking about talking, and just practice listening. If you are missing anything, it's b/c you are not really hearing her. But no, I don't think she was mysteriously trying to get you to make a move.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/19/18 07:37 AM
Don't take any of this reply as a defense of myself, only explanation in hopes of getting to the root of the issues.

After reading your views I can see how she could feel the way you describe on many of your points.  Both of us are guilty of some of the things you point out.  I say "both" because I have felt the same way many times and I think they have played in to some of my actions/reactions toward her as well, but we are focusing on my actions atm, so...


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Are you giving off cold and mad vibes toward her?



No. Not at all.  I'm doing as the 37 rules say.  Not initiating much conversation, but not ignoring her either.  When she speaks to me, I'm polite and to the point.  I try to act happy at all times, but not overly happy, and I am careful not to act mad at her. I just don't talk as much as I used to.  I do greet her in the mornings when I see her and always say goodnight, although it is not necessarily directed at her alone since D14 is usually in the living room with her.  I'll ask how she is as well.  I'm just not going overboard.  No ILY, hugs, kisses at all.   Only the occasional text when necessary and I reply to hers as time permits. Sometimes immediately, but more often delayed.  Responses are kept brief and on topic.  This is all very different than I used to be.


There is not much opportunity for conversation as she does not initiate much either.  Pretty much only about the kids and business.  


Originally Posted By: sandi2
How long had she complained about her car before you tried to repair it? In all honesty, was not having it fixed sooner some attempt to keep her from meeting up with OM? Did you actually tell her your plans to have it towed that evening?



She had been complaining since last summer.  The problem is that I could not get the vehicle to duplicate the issue and her description of what was happening was so vague it could have been anything.  I explained this to her and probed for more information,  but she could never give enough information to narrow it down.   I had the vehicle scanned and no error codes showed.  I do understand that she doesn't see it this way though.


No, it had nothing to do with the OM.


No, I didn't tell her I was having it towed.  I never would have dreamed she would have attempted to drive it there.  Taking care of anything outside of the house, including cars has always my responsibility.  She was throwing another tantrum, so I told her she could take it herself to set a boundary.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
You never hear what I am saying"......is your W emotionally relating to past incidents and connecting them to the current one.



This is definitely possible.  I can't come up with a specific example of me doing this ATM, but I am sure it has happened. 


Originally Posted By: sandi2
"I talk and you do whatever you want to do", is her saying that she feels her views are not considered, appreciated, or respected. By ""doing whatever you want", sounds as if you look like a jerk or bully in her eyes.



Are you saying this in relation to the "You never hear what I am saying" statement or that I'm making decisions without her?  If it is the former, I can see the relation.  If it is the latter, it is simply not true. I will get to that below.


As far as being a jerk or bully, I'm not.  Far from it.  As you have said (as well as my kids), I tend to give in way too easily to her.  Unless, of course, she is referring to me after I came here.  I don't give in much any more for the most part and I am firmly setting boundaries.


I do understand what you are getting at though.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
"You're in control of everything and I feel like I have no voice in anything important", sounds as if she has not felt very valued when it came to important decisions.



She has a voice in every decision of any consequence.  If it affects the both of us or the family, she is involved in the decision and we usually go with what she wants.  

The only thing I'm "in control of" is the finances, and that is only to a point. She has free reign to spend within the budget, which is based on getting bills paid and food in the refrigerator first.  She knows this.  


She has always been a spender and not a saver, and since we do not have much extra money, there are things she wants which we can't afford.  I do put my foot down when it comes to being frivolous with money, insisting that bills are paid before extras are bought.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Frankly, I can't help but think what she said is true to some degree. I am saying this really had very little to do with the car. It goes deeper...     ...Make sense?



Yes, you are probably right, and it does.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Maybe it's a little of both, you think?



Definitely possible.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Could you tell if she appeared let down when you stopped doing special things for her?



When I stopped pursing just over a month ago, she didn't seem to notice, at least outwardly towards me.  I watched very carefully for any reaction from her, even the smallest, and I saw nothing.  Since you asked the question, when we were in the car alone today, I asked D14 since my W talks to her a lot.


I asked exactly like this:  "Think back a month ago when I stopped showering your mother with attention.  What would you say her reaction was?"


D14's answer was "That's easy. She was mad.  Especially when you stopped telling her goodnight. She said she knew you weren't going to keep texting her too.  She's made a few comments about that."


Just for clarification, my morning routine included giving my wife a kiss and saying ILY before I went to work, even when she was still sleeping.   At night I would do the same to all of the kids and my W.  Now it is just a general "goodnight" to everyone in the room.  No one,  including my W gets a kiss, individual ILY or "goodnight" unless they are in a different room.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Refresh my mind, how did she respond during that time you were showering her with attention?



It depended on what I was doing.  She acted as though she was tolerating the hugs and would not hug back.  


Kisses she avoided and seemed annoyed with, except when I started kissing het neck. She giggled when I did that.  No, she is not ticklish.


With both of the above, she would have a smile on her face, but it wasn't a normal smile. It is hard to describe.  It was like she was taking pleasure in my groveling.


ILYs were dismissed. "Sure you do,"  "So you say" and silence were the most common responses.


When I did things around the house,  she didn't mention them.   When I offered to stop at the store while I was out, she said "Thank you."  When I bought her flowers and said that I saw one of her favorite flowers in the bouquet which reminded of me of her, she seemed appreciative.


Text messages from me just to say "hi" or see how she was doing were met with one or two word answers, if answered.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
How did you respond when she mentioned how you went from paying her attention to being mad at her all the time?



I told her that I wasn't mad at her and never was.

I was going to say that when I was doing those things she just rejected me or something to that effect, but I remembered you scolding me last time I answered it that way so I didn't. I didn't have a better answer, so I left it alone.


When someone doesn't talk much or simply wants peace and quiet, no matter who they are, she assumes they are mad at her.   Sometimes she forgets that people don't always want to talk.  An example is me in the mornings - I do not want to talk. I leave the radio off when I'm driving to work because I don't want the noise. It took her years to figure this out amd realize I wasnt mad or in a bad mood. I just wanted a little quiet time before I started my day.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Then I tend to believe this is something she has needed for a long time. And I am not saying it is definitely the reason she is in an A, but can you understand how it could leave her vulnerable to another man's attention?



Yes, I can.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
that point yet.......if she's having an A.



Are you thinking there is a possibility she's not having an A?  There is every indication that she is, but I would love to be wrong on this.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
For instance, the fact she has felt forced to live in a place she hates. I have lived in a lot of different places. While I loved some, and a few I hated. Environment, weather, culture differences, etc., plays a big factor with some people. The way your W sees you refusing to move away from the cold weather state, is you being stubborn, maybe  maybe even a little selfish and not wanting to do something she feels is important to her overall well being and happiness.  Now, how much difference it would actually make in her, IDK. But these factors have caused significant resentment for a long time, and it apparently had no affect in your decision to stay in the place she hates to live. What if it was reversed and you had to live wherever she decided?



We live where we grew up and she hasn't always hated it.  The only time she hates it is in the winter. 


We have talked about it for many years as something we would do someday.  In our discussions we have always agreed it would be best to stay here until our parents are gone since we both have very small families and we felt it was important for our kids to know their grandparents.  She has also said on many occasions that she is the only one her mother has, so she couldn't leave her behind.


Living here is by mutual agreement and choice, not force and she knows that.  I only brought it up because she was talking about future plans while she is telling me she doesn't think the marriage can be saved.


Now, if moving would fix our marriage it would be an option to consider, but I don't think that would be the case.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
I suggest you stop thinking about talking, and just practice listening. If you are missing anything, it's b/c you are not really hearing her. But no, I don't think she was mysteriously trying to get you to make a move.



I'm not going to lie, I think about "the talk" a lot and how it might go, but I am not actively pursuing it. 


I wish we could edit posts because that was not what I actually wanted to ask.   I posted again to change what I was asking to was she reaching out in any way to try to work on things, or at least say she was willing to.  She went from cold to very nice back to cold. 


The timing of nice after the text exchange and back to cold on Valentine's Day seemed like each event may have influenced the changes she had.   The week and a half of nice seemingly out of nowhere confuses me, so I guess I was just looking for a reason behind it.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/19/18 08:59 AM
Thank you, sandi.

This is exactly the type of feedback I need.

You are appreciated more than you know!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/20/18 03:54 AM
I wrote a post yesterday that pretty lengthly, and somehow mangaged to lose it. So, this will be shorter

Quote:
No, I didn't tell her I was having it towed.  I never would have dreamed she would have attempted to drive it there.  Taking care of anything outside of the house, including cars has always my responsibility.  She was throwing another tantrum, so I told her she could take it herself to set a boundary.


I'm not sure how you set this as a boundary. Have you ever mentioned it to her? An example of having a boundary of not tolerating tantrums would be, "W, I feel disrespected when you throw a fit. I will no longer tolerate you throwing tantrums with me. If you engage in an tantrum, then you will be left to your own devices". If she continues, then you would disconnect the call, and she could get the car there the best way she could. If she has no clue about you having a boundary against her tantrums......how will she learn to stop throwing them? Boundaries require that you are steadfast. You can't cave one time and be firm the next.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted By: sandi2
"I talk and you do whatever you want to do", is her saying that she feels her views are not considered, appreciated, or respected. By ""doing whatever you want", sounds as if you look like a jerk or bully in her eyes.


Are you saying this in relation to the "You never hear what I am saying" statement or that I'm making decisions without her?  If it is the former, I can see the relation. 


Yes, that's what I meant.

Quote:
Are you thinking there is a possibility she's not having an A?  There is every indication that she is, but I would love to be wrong on this
.

There is a possibility, but I suspect she is in an EA, at least. What we need to do is figure out where to go from this point.

I see three options:

1. You forget about the EA/OM and act as if you have had an awakening. You focus on becoming a better man, H, and father.
2. You confront her about the EA/OM and lay down a boundary that you won't stay in a MR with three people.
3. You do nothing, and see how it turns out.

Whatever you choose, it will be very challenging, b/c both of you are unhappy and her behavior didn't start overnight.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/20/18 12:43 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
What we need to do is figure out where to go from this point.


Yes, I agree that this is needed. What I am doing does not seem to be working.



Originally Posted By: sandi2

I see three options:

1. You forget about the EA/OM and act as if you have had an awakening. You focus on becoming a better man, H, and father.
2. You confront her about the EA/OM and lay down a boundary that you won't stay in a MR with three people.
3. You do nothing, and see how it turns out.



Only the first two are options to me, but from what you and Acc are telling me, Option two probably won't end well.

I am going to step back and try to look at this a little differently so maybe I can get this figured out.

In the meantime, could you please tell me what you think of the two questions you asked two posts ago? You asked them for a reason that seemed important to me. Depending on your response, it might be a clue as to which way I need to go. I have my own thoughts on them, but your viewpoint would be welcomed.

They were:

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Could you tell if she appeared let down when you stopped doing special things for her?


and

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Refresh my mind, how did she respond during that time you were showering her with attention?



I appreciate the help.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/21/18 07:12 AM
Quote:
In the meantime, could you please tell me what you think of the two questions you asked two posts ago? You asked them for a reason that seemed important to me. Depending on your response, it might be a clue as to which way I need to go. I have my own thoughts on them, but your viewpoint would be welcomed.


This was a little confusing for you wanting to know my response on my questions, so I don't know if I will give the answers you are seeking. The reason behind those two questions was me trying to decide if it was a case that could be resolved with you simply showing your W more appreciation and attention. That's why I wanted to know how she responded during the time you were taking her flowers and helping around the house more, and then how she acted once you stopped doing those things.

From what I gathered by your answers, the only thing she responded half way positive was when you bought her flowers. Otherwise, I couldn't see much difference in her behavior during the time you showered her with attention.....and when you ended it.
Of course, all I have is what you tell us.

You might say that I was trying to give her the benefit of doubt. However, I have little doubt she has the mindset of a WW. She has carried around resentment for a long time. It is very easy for that condition to slide into disrespect.

Again, I'll use the car, b/c that's about the only thing I have currently to demonstrate what I mean. Most of us W's do depend upon our H's to be responsible for maintaining the upkeep of the vehicles. If we detect a strange sound of feel when driving the car, we tell our H's, trusting.......and, yes, expecting him to have it checked out. If it is something he can fix.......great. If he has to take it in to a shop......fine. We just want to have a vehicle that is safe to drive when we need to use it. If the H drags his feet about checking it out, his W could feel a little devalued by his lack of concern for her safety. If he should make the mistake of telling her he found nothing wrong and it must be all in her head........then she's going to feel anger. You said she started complaining last summer, which means it has been several months. I'm just guessing that she felt that her safety must be very low on your priority list, or that you were trying to control her from going out. However, I believe you said you did have it scanned and the mechanic saw no problem. So, you were not totally to blame that the car broke down. smile. The thing is, she has carried that resentment in her heart for many months .......just about the car. I can nearly feel her fury when the car broke down in route! I don't know how much or how little you explained about having the car checked out. But the problem was that she still had no means to go whenever she wanted. She just wanted a reliable vehicle, and she was fed up waiting on her H, b/c she was seeing the results she wanted. Like I said, this is just one tiny example of how one resentment can be blown out of proportion, and it can quickly turn into disrespect. One resentment builds onto another one. When she has a bed of resentments growing, it's not hard for one little thing to set her off. Her life becomes consumed with resentment toward her H, and until she can forgive him and start working through these unresolved issues, it will be very difficult for him to please her.

So, when the H is ready to turn out the lights at bedtime and make a little nookie.......he's probably going to see nothing but her cold back facing him. Why? B/c she is ticked about something. In this case, it was the car. And if it has been months since the incident, and she is still "tolerating" a kiss/hug from her H..........it's b/c the car incident has been added to her long, long list of grievances against her H. You see, she doesn't really resolve the bad feelings surrounding the entire vehicle situation. She simply pushes it down further in her heart.

Every single woman on the planet may not do this to the same degree. And, it may take much greater or more serious issues to make her feel this anger toward her H. But I will go out on a limb by saying most women have this tendency to push unresolved issues down in their hearts. Now, I will use myself for an example. If I can talk about the problem and express my feelings.....and if my H will communicate with me, then it prevents a lot of stuff being pushed down in my heart. But if he tells me he doesn't want to hear it anymore, or he refuses to acknowledge my feelings.......then it's going to make matters much worse. What am I saying? I am saying I want my feelings validated. The anger, frustration, or hurt will be compounded b/c he has stopped me from talking about what bothers me. That particular problem that upsets me, has been left unresolved, as far as my feelings are concerned. The car may be currently running, but I still have this mess of feelings I am left with to deal. My H would see it like, "The car (the problem) has been fixed, so enough talking about it". But I don't care, b/c it hasn't fixed how it made me feel. Sounds pretty pathetic, doesn't it?

Anyway, if it were not for an A/OM, I think a good pro-marriage counselor might be able to help both of you in learning how to communicate better and how to resolve issues before they get to the point she is screaming and acting crazy. Just learning the differences in how men and women think, can make a huge improvement in a MR.

When the WW has reached the point of acting out her rebellion, like engaging in an affair, then the M is at risk. Any type of an affair needs to be taken deathly serious, b/c it means your MR has died. It means you have already lost her. It means you will not be able to get her back as easily as you got her the first time. B/c this time, she is wayward, and her mindset goes against all logic. That is the first thing the H has to learn and accept. Her thinking is not logical.

So, with all this I've said........I think you need to have a plan of action. By that, I mean a plan of how to deal with your WW. You said option 3 was out. Okay, so you have to choose between the other two. If you choose option 1, then you must stop snooping. If you choose option 2, then I suggest you get enough intell to back up your suspicions (if you are not completely certain). I don't think it is healthy to fall into a habit of snooping or spying, based on the results of what others have written. Once you see or hear it, it's hard to erase from your memory. Plus, some people forget the plan they are suppose to be working ......and all they focus on is snooping. Their life becomes consumed with the activity between their W and OM.

If you go with option 2, you will need to be mentally prepared to get a separation and/or a divorce. She will either deny an affair, tell you it's all in your head, or that they are just friends...........or she'll deny an affair and then proceed to tell you she wants out of the M. As previously discussed, confrontation reveals that you are aware of the affair. You risk her taking the affair deeper unground. Unfortunately, there are apps available that support cheaters. It makes it very difficult to prove an A, if that's what the H is trying to do. For many men, it is important to them that their WW admits to having an A. Don't expect it. It is extremely rare to get admission, even if the H has solid proof. Btw, he should never tell her his source of intell. She can guess till the cows come home, but he is to never....ever tell her how he knows.

Let me comment about boundaries here. If you choose to confront her about an affair, and you tell her you will not stay in an open M (or a M of three, or however you state it), you will have to back up your words when she doesn't end the affair. She will test it. Stating a boundary to your WW is only words. Remember, she does not respect you, and she won't believe you'll follow through with what you say. Enforcing a boundary is when you put action to your words. So, think carefully before you make any grand pronouncements. Several newcomers have rushed into confronting their WW about an A, and would tell her his boundary of no open M. But they mistakenly believed that once she heard he would not stay in an open M, it would automatically end the A. I want you to clearly understand that confronting her and laying a boundary is not an automatic end to the affair. If anything, you give away your hand, and you are forced into a tough love plan of action.......that has no let up for a long time,if ever. So, please.......think very carefully before you decide. And if you decide to take that route, then you will need to sit down and put together a plan of action.

If you confront her, there are at least three things you should require from her, in order for her to remain in the M: She will have no further contact of any type with the OM, for life. She is committed to do whatever it takes to save the M. She will cooperate in a transparency plan that you choose. I'm sure you can already detect some problems in those three things. But if you confront her, you either have to get her agreement to these three requirements, or else plan to separate. And, she will need to be told she has the choice to end the M or agree to these three stipulations. Otherwise, you'll leave the confrontation not knowing where you stand. You have to be strong and don't leave the confrontation moment without her giving an answer. If she says she'll have to think about it........then that's the wrong answer. It means she doesn't want to save the M, she only wants time to figure out how to continue the A and keep one foot in the M. You see, she benefits both ways. She doesn't want you for her H, but she wants the benefits she gets by being legally M to you.

At this time, I won't get into what all the transparency plan covers. The last thing a WW in an affair wants to do is to be transparent with her H. She doesn't want him seeing her private messages, knowing about her activities, etc. But if the MR ever heals and has trust again, it needs to be a requirement, IMHO.

Don't know if this was what you were looking for, but if not.....break it down and simplify for me. smile
Posted By: CW2017 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/21/18 11:12 AM
I can only echo what Sandi's (ever wonderful) advice is pointing to.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
[quote]
So, with all this I've said........I think you need to have a plan of action. By that, I mean a plan of how to deal with your WW. You said option 3 was out. Okay, so you have to choose between the other two. If you choose option 1, then you must stop snooping. If you choose option 2, then I suggest you get enough intell to back up your suspicions (if you are not completely certain). I don't think it is healthy to fall into a habit of snooping or spying, based on the results of what others have written. Once you see or hear it, it's hard to erase from your memory. Plus, some people forget the plan they are suppose to be working ......and all they focus on is snooping. Their life becomes consumed with the activity between their W and OM.

Yep, been there, got the t-shirt!

If all goes to plan with your sitch, whatever plan you go with will crystallise over time. Without dwelling on my own sitch, 8 months after a major confrontation (with no willingness on her part to leave her job, a degree of "owning", extensive MC but some sort of contact continuing afterwards which I hadn't realised) I no longer snoop, am in a relatively good place (thanks to some fantastic IC) but am ready for the nuclear option if it comes to it (and she knows this will happen). I have protected others up until now but the mental health has to come to the forefront at some point (the IC had a marvellous analogy of cabin pressure dropping, you decide to put the air masks on your family before yourself but unfortunately you don't get a chance because you're dead!).

the Best of British (as we say)!
Posted By: LH19 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/23/18 02:07 AM
R,

It’s PEW1974. Read his story.
Posted By: Accuray Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/27/18 05:59 AM
rminer,

I'll just chime in that I think you're in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. She is unhappy in the marriage and on some level wants to leave it. At the same time, she doesn't want to be the bad guy and be responsible for breaking up the family, so she's looking for any excuse to pin that responsibility on you. If you're the bad guy she doesn't need to be.

Therefore, when you do nice things for her, she likes that you're addressed past complaints, but at the same time she resents that you're not playing your role as the bad guy.

If you don't play to her historic complaints, then she resents you for your ongoing shortcomings (in her eyes) but appreciates that you're validating her decision to leave.

See the trap there? You can't win.

Unfortunately there's not a path forward that doesn't suck. That's not an easy thing to accept. It took me a couple months to accept the fact that there wasn't a "win" hidden somewhere and surrender to the fact that *any* path forward implied pain and badness.

Once you've accepted that, the consequence of your choices doesn't seem as severe, if that makes sense.

You're putting a lot of focus on her, what she says, what she does, and trying to distill the hidden meaning from her seemingly contradictory behaviors. That path only leads to frustration.

As Sandi has spelled out for you, her issues with you are deep seated and long running.

You focus, ideally, will be this:

1) Understand and articulate (to yourself) her *long term* complaints. If you don't feel you have a grasp on them, let's explore it. If you do truly feel you understand what she was upset about long term, what made her resentful, then proceed.

2) Evaluate the complaints. Just because something bothered her about you doesn't mean the complaint or criticism was valid. If it bothers the hell out of her that you wear shorts in the summer instead of long pants, and wearing shorts is important to you, then that's really her issue to deal with and not yours, or you can open yourself to some form of compromise. Point is, there's a spectrum for complaints to totally reasonable and well-founded to irrational and batshit crazy, and you don't want to respond to the crazy ones -- that's where you have to be assertive and establish your boundaries. Sometimes your own yardstick is not effective at evaluating how reasonable a particular complaint is, so it can be useful to discuss with an IC, group of friends, or here. Often an LBS will give too much weight to BS complaints.

3) For the complaints you agree with that bother you as well, chances are they'll bother anyone you interact with on a long term basis. Come up with a plan for yourself to address them. Make the plan reasonable. If you think you're too beta, don't make your plan to suddenly become Tarzan. That will only frustrate you and make you feel worse. For anything you want to improve, evaluate where you are on a 10 point scale. If you're a 2, focus on being a 3. If you're a 3 focus on being a 4. Small, incremental improvements.

The focus of this plan is entirely on you. If you're being the man you want to be, then W will either see and appreciate that, or she won't. Either way, you'll know you're living with integrity and being true to yourself, and in that context her decisions won't really matter.

Acc
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/27/18 09:04 AM
Thanks for the well wishes. I had a British friend in college and she used that saying quite often. I always got a kick out of it!


I'm sure it will come in to focus over time but right now it is still a bit foggy. The good news is I'm not protecting her any more. No more excuses for her because she is doing this to herself. I am, however, still protecting the kids. At least in the sense that they see and feel as little of this as possible. They still are getting too much IMO.

It is all very draining.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/27/18 09:05 AM
Read all of it.

Hope that wasn't supposed to make me feel better about this sitch! eek
Posted By: LH19 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/27/18 09:45 AM
R,

I just wanted you to get a sense of what happens when you sweep the A under the rug.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/27/18 11:52 AM
I get the picture.

When I decide to go that route I will need more intel on her before I consider it. I've been advised that since she is in an A, any settlement would be more favorable if I could prove beyond a doubt she was the one breaking up the M. EA's are not truly considered A's around here apparently.

What I currently have is little more than innuendo as far a the courts would be concerned when it comes to a PA.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/27/18 11:58 AM
I’m sure a PI can get you what you are looking for as far as evidence.
Posted By: CW2017 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/28/18 03:43 AM
I have bookmarked p.5 of this thread. Abs marvellous stuff
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/28/18 05:36 AM
Originally Posted By: Accuray
She is unhappy in the marriage and on some level wants to leave it. At the same time, she doesn't want to be the bad guy and be responsible for breaking up the family, so she's looking for any excuse to pin that responsibility on you. If you're the bad guy she doesn't need to be.



I agree that I am in a no win situation at this point. I'm currently looking to turn the tables a bit and see if I can improve my standing in her eyes. There are times I can still see in her eyes or hear in her voice that she still cares at some level. How deep that is buried is another question, but I still think there is hope. I just need to find the path there.

I know most here will say that I am grasping at straws, but I've known this woman virtually all of my life and intimately for 33 years. I know the look in her eyes and tone of her voice when she is showing true care for me. It is still there occasionally, but as I said, can I bring it to the surface?

The only ones she will be able to make me out to be the bad guy to are her "friends" and herself. I have had conversations with all of my kids the past week except S8 and all of them are on my side. That is a terrible way to put it, but that is the way it was said to me. S23 said that if this ends in D, my W will be "dead to me." Scary thing is, he means it. This kid does not BS about anything.

I think she is starting to see the kids gravitate towards me, so I am hoping she will eventually see the loss and rethink what she is doing. No guarantees though.


Originally Posted By: Accuray
Therefore, when you do nice things for her, she likes that you're addressed past complaints, but at the same time she resents that you're not playing your role as the bad guy.



I refuse to play the bad guy, at least in a mean spirited or vindictive way. My kids will see that I am doing everything possible to save this M. If it comes to us separating or D, I want everyone involved to understand who was the one who chose this course.


Originally Posted By: Accuray
If you don't play to her historic complaints, then she resents you for your ongoing shortcomings (in her eyes) but appreciates that you're validating her decision to leave.

See the trap there? You can't win.



I see the trap. You are right I can't win at this battle, but I have to at least try to find a way to win the war (reconcile).




Originally Posted By: Accuray
You focus, ideally, will be this:

1) Understand and articulate (to yourself) her *long term* complaints. If you don't feel you have a grasp on them, let's explore it. If you do truly feel you understand what she was upset about long term, what made her resentful, then proceed.



Let's explore a little bit then.

Most of her complaints that she has vocalized since this all started in November have been centered on how I don't make her feel loved, wanted or desired, I don’t listen to her and we don’t do anything with each other. I can see how she would think this if what the DR book says is true. We show love the way WE want to be loved and this is exactly how I believe we have been showing our love for each other.

I tell her and make physical contact to show my love. I touch her in certain ways and make suggestive comments to show I want and desire her.

She doesn't do these things much, but she did do things FOR me to show her love. It used to bother me that she didn't tell me she loved me spontaneously or give me hugs much. I finally realized this just wasn't her way and accepted it. It never dawned on me that this is how she wanted me to show my love too. Don't get me wrong, I did things for her, but the things I did were not always visible to her or unexpected.

She says I don't listen to her. This is BS, but not in her eyes. I listen, but as sandi said, I am not listening with my heart and letting her know I understand, at least not in a way that she recognizes. I can see this. Many things she says sound like complaints not only to me, but to the whole family. The WAY she says things have made it easy to overlook her needs and her tendency to justify wants as needs have contributed too. Some of the complaints are out of my/our control or simply not doable. Even though I have explained, by not listening with my heart and validating, I have fallen in to this trap.

She says we never do things together/spend time together and that we only do it when she arranges it. This is partially true. Her ideas and my ideas are different on this subject. She likes going out and doing things. So do I. We certainly don’t do it enough. The issue with this is that she will go do things with the kids and not invite me, or invite me at the last second when I am filthy from working and then say that I don't want to go. This comes from when I was building the house. At that time I was very focused on the house and this was mostly true. Since then I have asked her to tell me ahead of time so I can make plans to go, but she rarely does. When she does do this I go the vast majority of the time.

She will also spend the "extra" money on her and the kids, leaving nothing for us to go out with. We have talked about this many times, but she doesn't seem to understand there is not an unlimited supply.

She is very much a “live in the now” sort of person and doesn’t give much thought about how what she does now will affect the future. When I suggest things that don’t cost money, she isn’t all that interested.

She does do most of the planning, so she does have a valid point when she says she arranges things.


Originally Posted By: Accuray
2) Evaluate the complaints.



She does have some very valid complaints. I can’t disagree there. Before coming here I would have, but since then I have looked at how I do things and can see where she is coming from. I don’t always agree, but I could handle it differently.

Do you think I am starting to get the picture? If so, how do I change them now?

According to the program, I am not supposed to ask for dates, do things for her that a H would do or tell her I love her/hug her. Communication is for the most part superficial, but I am trying to get her to open up a bit by the way I phrase questions.

What would be your suggestion at this point?
Posted By: Accuray Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/28/18 07:57 AM
Originally Posted By: rminer
What would be your suggestion at this point?


My suggestion would really be to take the spotlight off of W and focus on you. The challenge is that due to your current situation, trying to correct the sins of the past by pursuing her will make things worse versus better because she has a roadblock up that will prevent her from being able to receive.

She needs to have space to process her feelings and flush out her resentment without feeling pursued.

If you use that time to address her complaints in your own life, it will be noticed, but you have to do it *for you* and not peacock it in front of her or she won't believe it.

She complained you didn't plan enough activities far enough in advance? Start planning things for you and the kids to do, and plan it in advance. She'll notice.

It sounds like your analysis of her complaints is fundamentally a "Five Love Languages" issue so I definitely recommend getting that book and reading it.

Acc
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/28/18 08:22 AM
Originally Posted By: Accuray

My suggestion would really be to take the spotlight off of W and focus on you. The challenge is that due to your current situation, trying to correct the sins of the past by pursuing her will make things worse versus better because she has a roadblock up that will prevent her from being able to receive.



The thing is, I'm NOT pursuing. At all. The most that could be considered pursuit is asking how her day was. I will engage in conversation when she starts it, but I let her do most of the talking.



Originally Posted By: Accuray
If you use that time to address her complaints in your own life, it will be noticed, but you have to do it *for you* and not peacock it in front of her or she won't believe it.



I'm not peacocking anything. I go about my business and so does she.


Originally Posted By: Accuray
She complained you didn't plan enough activities far enough in advance? Start planning things for you and the kids to do, and plan it in advance. She'll notice.



She complained I didn't do enough with her. I complained that she didn't give me enough notice to plan to participate.


Originally Posted By: Accuray
It sounds like your analysis of her complaints is fundamentally a "Five Love Languages" issue so I definitely recommend getting that book and reading it.



I will look for it.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 02/28/18 09:45 AM
The first two paragraphs answered what I was looking for; although it wasn’t the answer I wanted. I was really hoping that you would say something like “Hey! Stupid! Show her more attention and this will all be over!” As I said, I was hoping.

I’ve been trying to remember any signs that she was disappointed that I stopped doing those things, but I can’t recall any. The only thing that tells me that I should have kept doing it is her bringing it up multiple times. From what you said, that would have been the wrong move, so I am sticking with what you say.

As I said, the only outward reaction is what D14 said – she was mad – and she could have been mad I stopped for any number of reasons I suppose. She never displayed this towards me, so I am taking D14’s word on it.

I am back and forth on which option to take. I don’t want to blow this thing up and drive her away permanently, but on the other hand, keeping this secret is wearing on me. I think about it way more than I should and I am tired of being suspicious of her every move. I haven’t snooped in a while because I was becoming obsessed with it and was killing me mentally. Mentally I am getting better but I still have a ways to go.

Right now it is probably best that I stick to the 37 Rules and make myself better. Would you agree?

To do this I will need to get better at GAL, I know. Outside of my kids I have no one to socialize with, so, after resisting many, many years, I’ve created a Facebook profile. The plan is to try to reconnect with old friends. My question to you on this is should I try to “friend” my W? She still has a picture of the two of us as her profile picture, I assume to keep up appearances. Would it be wise for me to do the same?

I see two sides to this. It could show her I am living without her just fine and make her notice more. It could also stir negative feelings because some of the people I would/could connect with she could be jealous of. There are some girls from the past I think she would feel this way about that I will most certainly come in to contact with because they were part of the circle of friends I used to have. One of them she is sure I had a romantic interlude with in college, which I didn’t. We were merely good friends.

With all of that being said, I have a new potential problem that has cropped up.

A few days ago I was digging through the recycling to find paper to start a fire and I ran across an envelope with her writing on it. On the envelope was a travel website address, the name of a resort, dates and prices. It appears that she is planning a vacation next month. D21 saw that she was tagged in a post from her enabling friend saying this was going to be fun, referring to somewhere warm. Her other friend who she thinks should get a D was also tagged, so D21 thinks it is just the three of them.

Thing is, we can’t afford this, so she is getting the money from somewhere else. Either she has been skimming off of the grocery money or the OM is footing the bill if he is going. Either one is possible.

I have been starting to question whether the A is really “just” an EA instead of a PA for several reasons. When I was snooping, I saw she was texting him the entire time when she would go out. Also, she doesn’t usually drive when she goes out – her enabling friend picks her up and brings her home. They always come back shortly after the bars close. This would take a lot of planning and effort on her part with the texts and a lot of cooperation from the enabling friend. I’m not sure she would go to these lengths because she doesn’t think I know about the A and she doesn’t know I can see her text logs. Besides that, she has been getting a little more carless lately.

The kids also tell me that she really doesn’t go out during the day unless it is to the store. She is gone the normal amounts of time, brings home the normal amounts of items or some of the kids are with her. He also works during the day. I’m not saying it isn’t a PA or wasn’t one at one time and she decided to stop that part. I’m just questioning if it is now.

With that information, what do you think I should do about the vacation? She has told no one about it, so should I confront her or just say nothing about it until she brings it up? My though is that me saying something early could drive things deeper underground, but potentially stop her from going. By not saying anything, she will surely be going. She will have to say something to me at some point about it and when she does I feel like telling her that since she can afford to take a vacation and go out to the bar every Saturday night while I am struggling to pay bills, she can start contributing financially because I will no longer be paying her student loans or credit cards.

My end goal is to preserve the M, so this is an opportunity to set a boundary and be Alpha, but I can almost guarantee that she will go no matter what is said.

When you said that she was going to make this hard, you were certainly not kidding.
Posted By: Accuray Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/02/18 07:28 AM
Rminer,

Really you shouldn’t know about any vacation discussions because you found out about it by rifling through the trash. Would someone who is being more alpha rifle through the trash to find out information about his wife?

It’s really not your place in any circumstance to tell her that she can or cannot go on a vacation right? You can tell her you can’t afford to give her money for it if she asks, but if she somehow has the money that’s her business right?

If you then seek to punish her by taking away something you’ve been doing forever like making student loan payments she’s probably going to resent being treated that way.

If you need to have a budget discussion with her about how each of you contribute to loans, credit cards, and groceries you should — but it should not be as retribution for planning to take a vacation with a friend.

I think you need to wait for her to mention it before you say or do anything. If you then seek to force her to stay home she is going to resent you for that right?

Let’s say she goes on a vacation with OM and you hire a PI who gets pictures and undeniable proof. What would you do or say then?

Think a move ahead, consider what *you* want and what your boundaries are. You can’t control her, she’s going to find a way to do whatever she wants. So what will you do? You can only control what you will do.

Acc
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/02/18 07:35 AM
Originally Posted By: Accuray
Rminer,

Really you shouldn’t know about any vacation discussions because you found out about it by rifling through the trash. Would someone who is being more alpha rifle through the trash to find out information about his wife?

It’s really not your place in any circumstance to tell her that she can or cannot go on a vacation right? You can tell her you can’t afford to give her money for it if she asks, but if she somehow has the money that’s her business right?

If you then seek to punish her by taking away something you’ve been doing forever like making student loan payments she’s probably going to resent being treated that way.

If you need to have a budget discussion with her about how each of you contribute to loans, credit cards, and groceries you should — but it should not be as retribution for planning to take a vacation with a friend.

I think you need to wait for her to mention it before you say or do anything. If you then seek to force her to stay home she is going to resent you for that right?

Let’s say she goes on a vacation with OM and you hire a PI who gets pictures and undeniable proof. What would you do or say then?

Think a move ahead, consider what *you* want and what your boundaries are. You can’t control her, she’s going to find a way to do whatever she wants. So what will you do? You can only control what you will do.

Acc


Very well said. I like what you said about being an Alpha. And how that should drive your behavior. I'll need to remember that when I would be tempted to snoop on my wife. That is not what an Alpha does.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/02/18 09:00 AM
Originally Posted By: Accuray


Really you shouldn’t know about any vacation discussions because you found out about it by rifling through the trash. Would someone who is being more alpha rifle through the trash to find out information about his wife?



I wasn't "rifling through the trash."

As I said, I was using paper from the recycling to start a fire. It was just one of the pieces of paper I grabbed. She knows that this is what paper in the recycling bin is used for in the winter. Has nothing to do with alpha or beta.


She is a Stay At Home Mom. Unless the money is coming from the OM, she is using money that is meant to feed the family for her own pleasure. That bothers me.


I understand what you are saying though.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/02/18 09:14 AM
rminer, there is going to be a lot of things that bother you. Some of the things I've found since BD:

-Nude pictures sent to OM #1 (EA).
-Paid account and full profiles on two dating sites.
-Messages sent to guys on both sites AFTER I confronted her about the profiles/accounts.
-Sexual messages from OM #2 (EA).
-Several sex toys that I was not privy too.

Everyone of these discoveries was like a hot pickaxe too the chest. These are on top of some very hurtful things she has said to me in a very matter of fact way. Things like "the thought of having sex with you is like the thought of having sex with X" where X was a very unflattering person. Or "when the preacher was talking about how sex is a gift for you and your spouse and you need to be committed to the person you took vows with, it made me very sad because I don't think I'll ever feel that way here". There are a dozen more. Again, the words hurt, but the matter-of-fact way in which she stated them, as if she was reciting her social security number, was even more hurtful.

So buckle in. You are in a long ride full of things that are going to bother you. Even hurt you. It is all part of the process.
Posted By: Accuray Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/06/18 09:44 AM
rminer,

Sorry if my choice of words bothered you -- that said, your wife's perspective will be that you rifled through the trash to find the information so I'd be prepared for that.

Sometimes when people are unhappy they get money from family members, friends, or other sources in order to get away for a little while. You're assuming she's going to take family money but you may be surprised, that's all.

If you're worried about her mis-spending family money that's a separate issue that you should address independent of her vacation plans. If your understanding and agreements around "family funds" need to be tightened up then by all means you should do that.

Remember though, if your goal in doing so is trying to keep her in the house, she's going to resent that and ultimately that's not going to work. You need to fully open the cage door versus trying to lock it shut.

Acc
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/07/18 05:55 AM
Originally Posted By: Accuray

Sorry if my choice of words bothered you -- that said, your wife's perspective will be that you rifled through the trash to find the information so I'd be prepared for that.



Yes, it did rub me the wrong way. I'm not that pathetic.

Sorry to snap back at you when you said that, I know you are trying to help.

Figuring this whole thing out is a bit overwhelming, but I'm staring to make progress I think. I've been spending a lot more time with the kids and we have talked a lot. Its helped put my mind at ease about things so hopefully I can start to move forward more consistently.



I've been doing a lot of reading, reflecting and expiramenting, so I am going to have some questions about my technique here in the next few days.


A question in the meantime though. I mentioned that I finally did the Facebook thing. If I send my W a "friend" request, would that be considered pursuing? As I said, she still has a picture of the both of us as the profile pic, which I assume is to keep up appearances. This is what I want to do until the time comes that we can't. My dilemma is that I'm not sure how she would receive that request. Pursuing? Spying? Just take it in stride?

What do you think?
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/07/18 06:11 AM
2 things.

First, reading the piece of paper you were burning isn't that far from rifling through the trash. Sorry, but you were looking for something no matter the circumstances. Own it.

Second, delete the FB account. You are not starting FB from a place of health. You are doing it to track her. Admit that too. Why after all this time did you "finally did the Facebook thing"??

Sorry if our feedback angers you. We are trying to help. Beating around bushes and tiptoeing around people's feelings do not help.
Posted By: Mach1 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/07/18 07:07 AM
Originally Posted By: rminer

A question in the meantime though. I mentioned that I finally did the Facebook thing. If I send my W a "friend" request, would that be considered pursuing? As I said, she still has a picture of the both of us as the profile pic, which I assume is to keep up appearances. This is what I want to do until the time comes that we can't. My dilemma is that I'm not sure how she would receive that request. Pursuing? Spying? Just take it in stride?

What do you think?


You left "stalker" out of your equation...
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/07/18 07:57 AM
Steve, I appreciate your feedback, but you couldn't be further from the truth.


Originally Posted By: Steve85
First, reading the piece of paper you were burning isn't that far from rifling through the trash. Sorry, but you were looking for something no matter the circumstances. Own it.



I'm not going to rehash this, so suffice it to say that the information was impossible to miss. I didn't go looking for it. I didn't have to look for it. It was there, plain sight, not folded, hidden or obscured in any way. Anyone would have seen it. Nothing to own here.

Act's point was valid though. That is how she would see it.

Originally Posted By: Steve85
Second, delete the FB account. You are not starting FB from a place of health. You are doing it to track her. Admit that too. Why after all this time did you "finally did the Facebook thing"??



You have no idea why I would be starting a FB account, so allow me to edify.

I have let go of every friendship in my life that I have ever had. I quite literally have zero friends. This has happened for various reasons over the years and my W and family have been enough for me, but the time has come to reach out again. Some of them I truly want to be involved with, some I need to make amends.

Either way, I'm doing this for my mental health and to GAL, not to stalk my W. Maybe that is the reason you would do it, but that isn't the reason I am doing it.

If I wanted to spy on my W, I could have every text, post, email and picture in my possession in very short order. sandi2 gave me the advice not to spy because I can't unsee what is there once I find it. I am taking this advice because the texts I saw that confirmed the A are still in my mind and bother me a great deal; and they were mild compared to what I probably will find. There is plenty of time for me to gather that information should I need it.

My question regarding how to handle it with my W stems from not pushing her further away. Nothing more, nothing less.



Originally Posted By: Steve85
Sorry if our feedback angers you. We are trying to help. Beating around bushes and tiptoeing around people's feelings do not help.



I'm not angry and I do know you are trying to help. If you have read all of my sitch, I have said several times that I have very thick skin. I welcome honest feedback.

What I don't want is feedback based on someone reading a few lines and then assuming they know what is going on inside my head. Doing what we are doing is difficult enough on a message board. Making assumptions and giving advice without clarification compounds the problem. If you need more information from me, just ask.
Posted By: petri Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/07/18 08:15 AM
FB account, thats fine. Now asking your W as a friend...noup. If there is even the slightest chance that she takes it as snooping, spying, stalking, pursuing, pressuring, you're screwed. So don't do it. WWs take things pursuing and pressuring that you could never imagine. Example. My W got noted that her businesses taxes were late and they are going to be foreclosured. Guess what? That's just me pressuring her. Really. If you think you know whats coming...think again. This is roller coaster on steroids. And that's an understatement. So buckle up and keep your hands inside the vehicle.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/07/18 08:52 AM
Originally Posted By: rminer
Steve, I appreciate your feedback, but you couldn't be further from the truth.


Originally Posted By: Steve85
First, reading the piece of paper you were burning isn't that far from rifling through the trash. Sorry, but you were looking for something no matter the circumstances. Own it.



I'm not going to rehash this, so suffice it to say that the information was impossible to miss. I didn't go looking for it. I didn't have to look for it. It was there, plain sight, not folded, hidden or obscured in any way. Anyone would have seen it. Nothing to own here.

Act's point was valid though. That is how she would see it.

Originally Posted By: Steve85
Second, delete the FB account. You are not starting FB from a place of health. You are doing it to track her. Admit that too. Why after all this time did you "finally did the Facebook thing"??



You have no idea why I would be starting a FB account, so allow me to edify.

I have let go of every friendship in my life that I have ever had. I quite literally have zero friends. This has happened for various reasons over the years and my W and family have been enough for me, but the time has come to reach out again. Some of them I truly want to be involved with, some I need to make amends.

Either way, I'm doing this for my mental health and to GAL, not to stalk my W. Maybe that is the reason you would do it, but that isn't the reason I am doing it.

If I wanted to spy on my W, I could have every text, post, email and picture in my possession in very short order. sandi2 gave me the advice not to spy because I can't unsee what is there once I find it. I am taking this advice because the texts I saw that confirmed the A are still in my mind and bother me a great deal; and they were mild compared to what I probably will find. There is plenty of time for me to gather that information should I need it.

My question regarding how to handle it with my W stems from not pushing her further away. Nothing more, nothing less.



Originally Posted By: Steve85
Sorry if our feedback angers you. We are trying to help. Beating around bushes and tiptoeing around people's feelings do not help.



I'm not angry and I do know you are trying to help. If you have read all of my sitch, I have said several times that I have very thick skin. I welcome honest feedback.

What I don't want is feedback based on someone reading a few lines and then assuming they know what is going on inside my head. Doing what we are doing is difficult enough on a message board. Making assumptions and giving advice without clarification compounds the problem. If you need more information from me, just ask.


Sorry but FB is not the way to make real friends. I was on FB for 3 months back in 2009 before I deleted it. Never looked back. And I have more friends than I have time to spend with them! If you are relying on FB to foster friendships I am afraid you are in for a disappointment. FB friendships are at arms' length at best.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/07/18 09:32 AM
Originally Posted By: Steve85
Sorry but FB is not the way to make real friends. I was on FB for 3 months back in 2009 before I deleted it. Never looked back. And I have more friends than I have time to spend with them! If you are relying on FB to foster friendships I am afraid you are in for a disappointment. FB friendships are at arms' length at best.




I am well aware of the pitfalls of FB. I'm not going to fall in to them.


Again, if you read what I wrote you would understand that it is not to make friends. It is to find and reach out to the old ones I never should have let go of and make amends where I need to. I only know where one of my old friends is and that is because I went to his funeral 21 years ago. The rest I have no clue. FB is simply a tool to help find them.

As I said, I have let friends go throughout my life for various reasons. Maybe we will become friends again, maybe not. At least I will have made the attempt.

Think of this as part of my 12 step program, if you will. I need to get myself right before I can get my marriage right. Isn't that part of DBing?
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/07/18 09:39 AM
rminer, well you know your sitch better than I do. But it seems pretty early in your "finally doing the FB thing" you wanted to befriend your WW on there. Just seemed like a red flag. I am not accusing you of anything but be honest with yourself.

And you are right. I would use FB to spy, snoop, track, etc. Which is why since BD, though the thought has crossed my mind to set up an account, I've resisted with all I have.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/07/18 09:43 AM
Originally Posted By: petri
FB account, thats fine. Now asking your W as a friend...noup. If there is even the slightest chance that she takes it as snooping, spying, stalking, pursuing, pressuring, you're screwed. So don't do it. WWs take things pursuing and pressuring that you could never imagine.




Thanks. Kinda thought that would be the answer, but wanted another



Originally Posted By: petri
If you think you know whats coming...think again. This is roller coaster on steroids. And that's an understatement. So buckle up and keep your hands inside the vehicle.




Damn. I used to love roller coasters too.
Posted By: Accuray Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/07/18 11:55 AM
Why did you want to friend her on FB? What was your goal?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/07/18 02:38 PM
I had a little catching up to do on your thread. Am I right in saying your plan of action is to focus on becoming a much better version of yourself, and that you intend to hold off confronting her at this time? If I am mistaken, then tell me.

I think it would be good for you to try and connect with old buddies. At least, that's a start. We have seen many H's like you who get a family of their own and that becomes their entire world. It sounds very pretty when the words are said, to think a man is so wrapped up in his W and kids that he's not really concerned or interested in anything else. However, the reality is that the man begins to lose a bit of himself. He slowly loses the guy he once was..........and his W no longer sees the man she fell in love with. So, I encourage you to expand your world and reach out to people who were once good friends.

While touching on the FB and reaching out, I do want to caution about a couple of concerns. Many new relationships have started by connecting with old sweethearts. In some cases, they were just friends, and then one admit that they had a secret crush on the other.....way back in the day. You probably know where I am going with this. We have seen that happen, too. The man and woman catch up about where they currently are in life, and usually one of them are having MR troubles or have recently divorced. Don't take this as an insult when I suggest you will be emotionally vulnerable to another female showing interest in you. It's natural, when your ego is suffering due to your spouse's rejection and turning to another person. So, I hope you will stick to male friends.......and should an old sweetheart make the moves on you.......run like heck!

In answering your question whether or not to ask your W to be friends on FB.......my suggestion is to wait on her. She will either send you a request, or she'll say something in person about why haven't you friended her. Your answer could be something like, "I didn't know you cared, but whatever is fine with me".......not smart a$$ way, but rather nonchalantly. You are going to change from Mr. Uptight to Mr. Cool.

Speaking of old friends, think back to your high school years. Was there a guy that could have won nearly everything in the Who's Who of the school's yearbook........especially Mr. Personality? Everyone loved being around him. He made people feel good, just b/c they enjoyed his personality. He was fun. He never acted as if he was better than you. He was always warm and friendly, without getting too personal or pushy, know what I mean? He was not self-centered, and didn't try to be the center of everyone's attention......however, if he found himself being as such, he didn't shy away. He was never boring, but he knew when to be still and listen to others. He was always busy. He always.....ALWAYS had a full calendar of activities, events, special dates, etc. Not only was he fun, but he was interesting. He loved life, and people loved being with him. He was the kind of guy all the other boys wanted for a friend, and the girls wanted for a boyfriend. Does that ring any bells with you? I remember some guys that fit that description. Oh, and another I remember, these cool guys were never anyone's doormat.

I wrote that paragraph b/c I want you to see yourself as being that kind of man. Before you can set goals about how you want to improve yourself, you need to have a mind picture of it. Do you agree? Some people might argue and say, "Well, that's not me". Really, what part? If you aren't sure about some part, let's talk about it. I am hoping I can help give you a picture of how to interact with your W, and how to act at home with the family. Needless to say, I can't do it in one post.

Let me warn you that your W may not react to your changes the way you might think. Some WW's get pi$$ed when the H waits until she is checked out before he decides to change. But the secret is in being consistent, and doing them b/c you are determined to be the best YOU on the planet. If you have any other reason for changing for the better version....you'll stop once you get what you wanted. Some men come back to the board a second time and say, "I didn't stick to the changes". They did the changes only long enough to get the W back. Then they got comfortable/lazy and found themselves right back in the same shape again.

So, back to becoming Mr. Personality. wink. If you stay focused on yourself, instead of what your W is doing/thinking.......your kids win, you win, your future relationships win......and maybe even your M will win. What do you say? Want to give it the ole college try? How about giving it more..........how about giving it your all?

Start by inwardly taking a very long look at yourself. I think you have already seen mistakes you made in your R with your W. You also see where you've narrowed your personal world, considerably. As has been mentioned, you won't be able to suddenly do all the things she complained about, and expect her to melt in your arms. That's one of the differences I see in a WW and WAW. When a W has left the MR due to her H being abusive, or engaged in some type of dangerous/unhealthy activity, or being imprisoned, or has physically abandoned his family, etc..........then that H could definitely make changes to prove to her she would be safe in trusting him again. But with a wayward W, she is emotionally divorced from her H, and her outrageous resentment and disrespect toward him actually act as roadblocks. It prevents her from responding positively to his earnest attempts to fix her old complaints. It would be easier if he could become attentive, buy her flowers and take her out, help with the housework, compliment her, spend more time with her...........or whatever it took to fix her complaints. But you see, she no longer has the mindset of that W in the past. This is no longer is truely about her complaints (although she will stick by them as her excuse to end the MR), this is currently about her waywardness. She is filled with anger and disrespect for you, and now she is rebelling against you and the MR. I don't think some guys really get just how bad their WW really disrespect them. That disrespect ruins her loving feelings for him. So, what is a H to do? He has to mentally go back and find the man he was before they ever got together. In a lot of cases, he has to improve upon even that guy, b/c now he is older. So, acting as if he was still in high school, wouldn't look too great on a mature man.......but he can take that foundation of who that guy was and go from there. Does that make sense?

Instead of focusing on what pleases your WW, you need to focus on your values, principles, integrity, belief system, and personal boundaries. When a H find himself in a sitch like yours, he can become so distracted by his WW's actions, until he loses all prespective. He just wants her to like him and stop being mad. Too many have overlooked or forgotten about their own self-worth, compromised their integrity, and sacrificed their foundational beliefs..... in order to please their WW. It does not get her love back. The H has to mentally place himself in an "observer's" position. As if he is the third person, observing this rebellious, resentful woman who appears to be doing everything she can to hurt and disrespect her H. When he looks at the situation as if he was a detached observer.......he will discover that's how he detaches emotionally. Does that mean he stops loving her? No. Does he means he turns into an unemotional zombie? Of course not! It means he does not allow his emotions to dictate his actions. He can think more clearly, and a lot smarter! Just as I can read about your sitch and feel true concern for your MR........I can do it without emotional attachment clouding my abilities. Make sense?

When the H is able to take the position of an observer and stop reacting to what his emotions dictate, then he can remember something else. He can remember how he would have interacted with a woman who would have treated in a similar way his WW is doing currently. You may say, "But wait Sandi, b/c it's different when it's your W". Is it? Okay, then the H might not get as crude and disrespectful as he would to a female who was treating him like sh't and wasn't his W. Like I said, she has emotionally divorced herself as his W. Only, it's a little crazy, b/c even though she doesn't want to be his W......she still expects him to act like her H. But, I'll try to touch on that subject another time. I realize when you have children involved, it's a little more complicated, than if you were just casually dating....and walk away from the R whenever you wanted. But I want you to start thinking more about how you would respond, if she wasn't your W.....to give you a balanced mental picture. This is just a practice. It's not to get you to become cold-hearted or an uncaring person. Some like to say it's like loving your WW from a distance. Not a physical distance, but in the sense of not being emotionally attached. It doesn't send you spinning when she says some off the wall nonsense. You don't spiral when she threatens something new. You remain calm, in charge, and in command of your actions.

Well, this is way too long, and I will try to get back to it tomorrow. If you can't follow a thing I've said, let me know.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/08/18 01:33 AM
Phenomenal post, as always, sandi. Good stuff here that applies to many of us.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/08/18 03:10 AM
Thanks Steve, I hope it will help others. I plan to write more today.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/08/18 09:21 AM
Originally Posted By: Accuray
Why did you want to friend her on FB? What was your goal?



I'm not necessarily wanting to friend her. The goal is to not push her further away by pursuing with a friend request or ignoring her by not sending a request.

Her keeping her profile pic a pic of her and me tells me she is wanting to keep the public perception that things are still good between us.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/08/18 09:37 AM
I want to expound a little more on the subject of yesterday's post. First of all, when I make reference to being Mr. Personality, I am not implying that the H should act like a clown. You said you were the laid back type, and your W had the outgoing personality. In this sort of personality dynamic, I wonder if the laid back spouse begins to rely upon the outgoing spouse's personality when meeting new people, going to new events, etc. Do you know what I mean? Perhaps the quiet, laid back H feels that his W's personality will cover for his tendency to withdraw, shy away or not engage as enthusiastically, not appear as friendly or bubbly, or doesn't start up conversations with people he barely knows. Maybe you can answer this for me. My H is the easy going, laid back, quieter spouse, and I am like your W. I was definitely the "dominant" personality. However, without my H losing his own innate characteristics, he has come a long ways. I don't want you to feel as if I am suggesting you change who you are, but see how you might improve. It is so easy to get stuck in a behavior pattern, and it's not always a good one.

There is a ton of self-help reading material about how to improve almost every area in which you may feel you are lacking in interpersonal relationships. As you have stated about the long working hours on the job, and the time invested in finishing your house, you may feel there is no time for more reading. Maybe you could purchase tapes, or some libraries may have them.

Anyway, I'll get to the part you are probably more concerned about, and that is how to act around your WW and the kids. When you are with your WW in the presence of of your children, do not act as if you are shunning their mother. Don't ignore her, but neither should you be totally focused on her. Treat her respectfully........but it doesn't mean you have to stand there as she verbally belittles you, or something of that nature. When you are with your family, your attention will be mainly focused on the kids. If they are not saying much, then you ask open-ended questions to strike up a conversation. Show them eye contact, nod your head, and act as if they are saying something important (whether or not it really is important or interesting to you). Always make sure you have one on one conversations with your kids. Even if it's right before they go to sleep, stop by their room to hear about anything personal/private they don't want to say in front of others. I encourage you to be careful when speaking about your WW. It is not a contest to see which side the kids choose.

If the kids are feeling the strain between you and the WW (and I'm sure they must), try to make plans with them for something fun on your day off work. Yes, you will need to put the house on hold......but your family is more important at the moment. No matter their age or gender, they need time with daddy. Do things as a group, and do things one on one, b/c they need to see they will continue being held together as a family by their father. So, I am telling you that you will need to take the lead in seeing that this happens. Get out your calendar. Get out your computer. Start looking at events and activities that will be coming to your local area that you and the kids would enjoy. If there isn't anything, then put on your thinking cap and make your own fun activities. Think ahead. Summer will be here before you know it. Don't let precious opportunities slip by.

When you are home, you are going to be the coolest guy on the campus. Whether or not you feel comfortable anywhere else, a man's home is his castle and he should feel most comfortable there. Too many H's allow the WW to lead 100% at home. When this goes on for many years, he is not going to change things overnight. In your case, home is also school.....so your W has a lot of control over the kids' use of time and activities. However, when daddy gets home, school should be over. It is time for him to enjoy his family. Although your time may be limited, try your best to think ahead, instead of just arriving home and see what the WW is doing. This is your home and your children, too. Make every day count!

If they are not home and will be late getting back......then work on your house, but try to be home before they go to bed. If no kids around......work on the house building project or leave and GAL. Don't do her work that has been left. Always have plans to do something, and not be left alone and feeling uneasy around your WW. I really, really want to see you cut way back on working on the house. I had some relatives who built their own house, and it took forever. The W told me they nearly D over it. By the time they finished, they looked around and discovered their kids were almost grown and they had lost an emotional connection with them. So, a house is only a building, but the family makes any old place a home.

So, how should you act around your WW if it's just the two of you? I like to use the anology of the checkout clerk. When you go through the checkout line to purchase something, the clerk will usually speak and may even make a little idle conversation. It's just being friendly and curtious, right? How does the customer respond? Does he ask her personal questions? Does he try to sneak a little smooch? Does he get offended if she doesn't show interest in him, asks him about his day, or notice how nice he looks? Does he try to make more of their interaction than what it really is? Does he hang around her checkout counter to see who all comes through her line, and listens to what she says to those customers? Does he wait for her to get off work, so he can talk to her, or follow her to see where she lives? Well, I hope not, b/c he sounds like a psycho. crazy

I want you to interact with your WW as if she's a checkout clerk. At least, as best that you can, under the circumstances. When you see her, smile and speak. It is fine to show a level of friendliness. Remember, you are Mr. Personality. If she is wearing something pretty, it's okay to compliment her. If she is cooking dinner, it's fine too comment about how good it smells, or tastes. Just make short, and don't keep on keeping on. That would be classified as overkill. The other thing to remember with complementing her is not to get too intimate or sexual, since she has OM. IMHO, I would not joke about sex, or imply you want to have sex with her.

In the 37 rules, if you are the one who usually starts conversations with your spouse, then don't initiate conversations, but wait for the spouse to start. The reason I inclueded that rule is b/c many H's would talk too much to their WW. They would try to keep her engaged in conversation (either on the phone or face to face) b/c they saw it as way to get closer or fix the problems, when actually it was pushing her away. Most times, it would lead to a R talk, which needs to be avoided by the LBS. Those H's were too emotionally attached, and the WW sees it as clingy, needy, and unattractive. Most H's I see come to the board, say way too many words when they interact with their WW.......or they think the 37 rules are suggesting they don't say anything at all. The rules were designed to guide newcomers, until the couple has reconciled. If you have any questions about them, please ask me. In the meantime, you can say something to your W, but don't initiate conversations. You know the difference. BTW, if you aren't applying the 37 rules, I encourage you to do so.

Initiating a conversation and speaking, are not the same. So when you go home, you can smile and speak to your W. If she asks direct questions, you can answer her.....but let me throw this in, before I forget. The more vague you are about your GAL details, the more mysterious and interesting you become to her. Women are curious creatures. They want to know details about everything. She doesn't want you knowing about what she does.....but mark my word, when you start going out, she'll expect you to tell her where, when, what, with whom, and when you will be home. However, you don't give her that information. You don't have to lie, in fact I advise that you don't. Just give very vague answers. Like, "I haven't decided. Not sure. I don't know. Probably late, don't wait up". And when you get home, she'll probably ask again, but learn how to give a vague response. Now, I know men can give those type of answers! And I also know that it drives women crazy. Why? B/c those answers don't tell her a thing. So, she becomes curious. Why is he being so mysterious? That interest draws her attention.

When you are not busy enjoying the kids and you find yourself alone with the WW, you should act as if you are in a hurry to keep an appointment. B/c that attitude signals to the other person that you have something else planned to do. For all she knows, you could be walking around the block, going to Walmart, read a book at the library, or whatever. If she tries to talk to you, you are polite (if possible), validate her feelings (if possible), and show by your facial expressions and nodding your head that you are listening and not dismissing her (if she's not being a horse's rear). As long as she is speaking respectfully, you can interact with her in like manner. Just remember, you are Mr. Cool, and you are not going to chase her, kiss her feet, or try to score brownie points with her. You don't have to......b/c you will be just fine, with or without her. She will be the loser if she continues in the direction she's going. In the meantime, you start acting as if you already know that you are the man. wink You are the winner in your life, and any woman would be lucky to have you.

If she starts in belittling, raising her voice, making snide remarks, or showing some other form of disrespect, what do you do? Hold your hand up in a stop sign motion, and say, "I am not going to listen while you continue speaking disrespectfully. If you can talk respectfully, I will hear what you have to say". If she changes and begins to talk respectfully, then continue to listen. If not, turn around and leave. If she starts a R talk, you can listen, if you want to, but you don't have to respond. You can always tell her that you will think about what she had to say. It buys you time to come to the board, if you aren't sure how to handle things. But while she is talking about past grievances or current ones, don't show your cards. (H's give themselves away by telling the WW too much). If you can validate her feelings, then do so. I am not in favor of saying too many words, when validating. Most H's want to just keep going on and on validating. He loses her, when that's the case. Another thing, I don't think the H should apologize for things he has already apologized for once. I mean, she is filled with resentment, and no amount of apologies will help her. She has to learn how to let go of the resentment. It is a heart condition that apologies do not easily fix.

I am not in favor of the H of a WW telling her he is working on himself. The reason is b/c she already blames him for every negative thing in life! She is not balanced. She does not think logically. She looks for justification for her waywardness. So, if he is telling her how he is working to become better........how do you think she's going to see him then? As if he is a dog licking her feet and trying to please enough for her to pat his head. That is exactly how she will see him! A normal W would be happy to hear her H say those words. But not a WW. She will use his own words against him........and when he does change those old complaints, it makes her mad. Remember, this is not the girl you married. This is a wayward W. Therefore, he does not buy himself more time, nor appreciation, nor sympathy, nor respect from her......by making changes in order to please her. Just keep it to yourself and if she sees the results, great, and if not, that's her loss.

Speaking of loss, you are probably a good man. Most men with the NGS are good ones. I just want to remind you not to feel that you must rescue your WW from the mess she's created. In fact, any mess she's made......she needs to clean up. Allow her face whatever consequences her waywardness brings her way. One of the board's favorite hero's use to suggest saying to the tearful, cheating W, "This is your mess! Don't expect me to clean it up". I think that needs to be applied on other levels, as well. A lot of H's who want to be good to their W, actually end up spoiling her by doing too much of her work, and catering to her, and relenting to whatever she wants. When she is wayward, she stops appreciating what he does for her, and has a sense of entitlement.

I hope you won't misunderstand anything I've said. I am not telling you to "nice" your WW back, b/c it won't work. I am simply trying to give you a picture of how to interact with her. Has any of this helped you? Do you have questions?
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/08/18 01:03 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Am I right in saying your plan of action is to focus on becoming a much better version of yourself, and that you intend to hold off confronting her at this time?


Yes, you are correct. It’s not that I don’t want to confront her, it’s that I don’t think I have laid enough groundwork to entice her to come back. I think you and Acc are right in saying that at this point it would be fruitless and potentially make things worse. I will need at least a few more weeks if not more before I think I would be ready.

My questions is, [b]HOW[b] will I know I/we are ready?


Originally Posted By: sandi2
We have seen many H's like you who get a family of their own and that becomes their entire world. It sounds very pretty when the words are said, to think a man is so wrapped up in his W and kids that he's not really concerned or interested in anything else. However, the reality is that the man begins to lose a bit of himself. He slowly loses the guy he once was....


I couldn’t have said this any better myself. This is exactly how I feel and how it went for me. I have given up so much in my life for her and my family (ultimately my choice) that I have lost who I am. I am not an exciting, fun loving guy like I used to be. My W has said more than once that she feels like she is the reason I am not living my dreams. I have always denied this to her, but she did play a big role in my decision to give them up. Everything in my life focuses on her and the kids, so I do nothing for myself. I definitely need to get some of that back.
In doing so, since I can’t invite her, how will she see that I’m doing that? Me talking about it? My attitude in general?

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Many new relationships have started by connecting with old sweethearts. In some cases, they were just friends, and then one admit that they had a secret crush on the other...


Ummm… Yeah.
This is one of the pitfalls I said I was aware of. There is a girl who, as you said, did have a crush on me (so I am told). She is part of the group of friends I am looking for, so I am sure I will run in to her eventually. My W was told about the crush by someone and was told we had a thing going on the side… Not true, but that is what she was told.
This girl will be avoided.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Don't take this as an insult when I suggest you will be emotionally vulnerable to another female showing interest in you.


No insult taken. It is absolutely true. I have been noticing other women in ways I never have before. Eyes, smile, things like that. Normally I never notice, but since this all started, I have. Someone flirted with me the other day and I felt damn good. I can see how someone could start a new relationship under these circumstances without much thought.

I haven’t acted on anything and won’t. I still wear my ring as a reminder and I refuse to go down that road, but I can see how it would easily happen.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
She will either send you a request, or she'll say something in person about why haven't you friended her.


My next question answered…


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Before you can set goals about how you want to improve yourself, you need to have a mind picture of it. Do you agree? Some people might argue and say, "Well, that's not me".


I agree, but that wasn’t me. Never has been. That guy was my best friend in High School, so I know the type well. Some of those things do apply, but I was never the center of attention, didn’t have lots of girlfriends and certainly wasn’t Mr. Personality. Don’t get me wrong, I had friends and most people liked me, but I was never the center of the group.
I admittedly have become boring and I’m not sure how to become interesting again. At least to her.
As I have mentioned, I have had quite a few talks with my kids lately and they have told me I am the “cool” parent and I’m fun to be around. Good to hear, but how does that translate to my W? Being “cool” and “fun” with your kids is much easier than with adults.

Are you saying I need to get a major social life? I ask because that is how I read what you are describing. My work schedule and kids simply won’t allow that. Occasionally, yes, but all the time, no. My W’s new found social life is part of what is causing her to lose the kids (more on that in another post). What can I do from home to accomplish this? I am spending a ton of time with D14 and S8 (which is also pi$$ing my W off. Again, another post), so I’ve got that covered. Not sure what else to do.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
So, back to becoming Mr. Personality. wink. If you stay focused on yourself, instead of what your W is doing/thinking.......your kids win, you win, your future relationships win......and maybe even your M will win. What do you say? Want to give it the ole college try? How about giving it more..........how about giving it your all?
Start by inwardly taking a very long look at yourself. I think you have already seen mistakes you made in your R with your W. You also see where you've narrowed your personal world, considerably.


I’m committed, but I’m not sure what I am doing so far is getting noticed for the most part. As I have said, I have been doing a lot with D14 and S8, which she has noticed in a negative way judging by her comments to D14. I go out occasionally to do my own thing, not telling her what it is I am doing or even that I am going most of the time. Usually it consists of going somewhere to walk or read. Not exactly what you would call interesting, but I am hoping she will think I am doing other things. Sometimes it is during the day on my days off, sometimes after work and occasionally in the evening on my day off. Don’t get me wrong, it is not two or three times per week – usually once a week to once every week and a half. She has only shown that she has noticed once – the first time I put cologne on before I went out. I did not receive a warm reception the next day.

I will tie all of this in to another post tomorrow because I have seen some attitude changes in the past two weeks I want to run by you.

I took a little bit of time off from this board to do just what you suggested – take a long look at myself. I see a lot of my mistakes as well as hers in our M. I’m the same guy she married at heart, but not outwardly. I have lost a lot of myself over the years and quite frankly, am not happy with my life. I’m not talking MLC unhappy, but unhappy in a sense of I have nothing to look forward to that I enjoy doing. My life is work. That’s it. I think if I start by changing that, I will be much more content. Sounds a lot like GAL, doesn’t it? Wonder where I have heard that before…


Originally Posted By: sandi2
The H has to mentally place himself in an "observer's" position. As if he is the third person, observing this rebellious, resentful woman who appears to be doing everything she can to hurt and disrespect her H. When he looks at the situation as if he was a detached observer.......he will discover that's how he detaches emotionally.


This has actually started to happen a bit for me, although I am not all of the way there. My conversations with my kids has put my mind at ease quite a bit and I have been able to look at myself and my wellbeing as opposed to theirs. It is a work in progress, but I am starting down that path. I am still experimenting with my interactions with my W (again, more tomorrow), but her actions and reactions are not bothering me nearly as much as they were. I might be wrong, but I think detachment is starting for me finally.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Only, it's a little crazy, b/c even though she doesn't want to be his W......she still expects him to act like her H.


You don’t say? I never noticed…
This part actually drives me the craziest. She still “notifies” me about things that need to be done and expects me to do them, yet she doesn’t do a thing for me.
To be fair though, she has shown a few acts of kindness towards me over the past couple of weeks.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
But I want you to start thinking more about how you would respond, if she wasn't your W.


I would have walked away. No questions asked. But, as you said, children complicate things and I do still love her. We have 33 years invested in each other and I can’t see throwing them away without giving our best effort to work things out.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/08/18 01:04 PM
Dang. You posted while I was typing...
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/08/18 09:22 PM
Quote:
Yes, you are correct. It’s not that I don’t want to confront her, it’s that I don’t think I have laid enough groundwork to entice her to come back. I think you and Acc are right in saying that at this point it would be fruitless and potentially make things worse. I will need at least a few more weeks if not more before I think I would be ready.

My questions is, [b]HOW[b] will I know I/we are ready?


That is a question one of the LBH's could probably answer much better than I can. However, I want you to stop obsessing about the confrontation. If you don't, then all this other stuff I have put out here on your thread the past two days will go in one ear and out the other, b/c all you can focus on is confronting her. Scr@w the confrontation, unless you want to get a divorce. I think your male ego wants her to know that you know what she"s doing. When confronted, that is usually when the WW will tell her H she wants a D. So, if you are determined to go that route, please tell me now.

To give you MHO about when you'll know the time to confront her, I think most guys go a gut instinct. Personally, I feel you need to be armed with evidence, and choose the right
Mtime and place. I think you should catch her totally off guard. Don't tell her you need to talk about something.........none of that stuff, b/c it tips her off. The more she is caught unprepared and surprised, the better for you. I believe in timing for all things. If she's in a Horrible mood, I would not pick that time to confront her. Know what you will say. Practice it while standing in front of the mirror. Show more confidence than ever before, and not an ounce of weakness. No tears, no sympathy, no pity, and no begging. If she says the M is over.......then be prepared for it. Tell her you will respect her wishes. If she says she'll end the A, then you give her your stipulations.........but I won't repeat all of that in this post. My main point is that you are brutally honest with yourself in why you are busting a gut to confront her about the OM? Do you see it as ending the A?

Quote:
Everything in my life focuses on her and the kids, so I do nothing for myself. I definitely need to get some of that back.
In doing so, since I can’t invite her, how will she see that I’m doing that? Me talking about it? My attitude in general?


How will she see you returning to the fun loving guy you once were? Did you even read my second post? No, don't discuss your personal GAL time. Your attitude and general lighter mood, & friendliness will send out more messages than you know. She'll probably have questions about it. Don't spill your guts. The secret is to let other tell her how much they enjoyed being you and how much fun it was. And, she'll know. She's a woman........she'll find out. The kids will probably talk about the good times. When the kids are home and you are playing with them, getting ready to go somewhere, etc.........she will see.

As for GAL, that should be mysterious to her. If you do all of what I suggest, and if you do it's for her to see........you will appear like a six year old who is jumping around trying to get his mother's undivided attention. So, try with all your might to do these for you and your kids. And btw, when you have something planned with the kids, it's okay to invite her......once in a while. But your personal GAL without your kids.......no, absolutely not. Your W has been your crutch ever since you M her. The point is to step away long enough to discover who you are as a man. Some men are worse than children being pulled away from the mother on the first day of school. But you can do this! The fact you were fun before M is a plus factor.
Quote:

I agree, but that wasn’t me. Never has been. That guy was my best friend in High School, so I know the type well. Some of those things do apply, but I was never the center of attention, didn’t have lots of girlfriends and certainly wasn’t Mr. Personality. Don’t get me wrong, I had friends and most people liked me, but I was never the center of the group.
I admittedly have become boring and I’m not sure how to become interesting again. At least to her.
As I have mentioned, I have had quite a few talks with my kids lately and they have told me I am the “cool” parent and I’m fun to be around. Good to hear, but how does that translate to my W? Being “cool” and “fun” with your kids is much easier than with adults.


Okay, no problem. I didn't mean to imply that *you* had to be the center of everyone's attention. I was just trying to paint a picture of a guy you would see as Mr. Personality.
We can break it down into small steps. I don't expect you to jump in a ring of complete strangers and start doing cartwheels. grin

Quote:
I admittedly have become boring and I’m not sure how to become interesting again. At least to her.
As I have mentioned, I have had quite a few talks with my kids lately and they have told me I am the “cool” parent and I’m fun to be around. Good to hear, but how does that translate to my W? Being “cool” and “fun” with your kids is much easier than with adults.


Okay, so the kids are already in your corner. You say it's much easier being fun and cool with them. They will be your first stepping stone. Plus, they could be your link to meeting other people, or practice new skills on your current acquaintances. Do you have something fun planned for this weekend? What are the ages of your kids? Better yet, why not give the information about you and W and the kids in your signature line.

Quote:
Are you saying I need to get a major social life? I ask because that is how I read what you are describing. My work schedule and kids simply won’t allow that. Occasionally, yes, but all the time, no.


Yes, I am telling you to get a social life. I am not telling you to give up your job in order to socialize. I tell you what, let's emphasize GAL as your "social life". Doing fun things and hanging out with the kids can be referred to as "family activity". You GAL occasionally, but your kids are home every night, so you can make the most of it when you are together.

What you may have misunderstood in my previous post, was my reference to you spending so much time on the building project. Maybe I have it wrong, but aren't you doing that after you get off your regular job every day?

Quote:
My W’s new found social life is part of what is causing her to lose the kids (more on that in another post). What can I do from home to accomplish this? I am spending a ton of time with D14 and S8 (which is also pi$$ing my W off. Again, another post), so I’ve got that covered. Not sure what else to do.


I don't you intended for this to sound like an excuse, but it kind of does. I mean, it is a true statement, but let's see how we get around it. I don't know what you mean by her losing the kids. Maybe you'll explain.

If there is something you want to do for GAL, you need to beat her to claiming the date on the calendar. Maybe there is a family calendar in your house where appointments, etc. are posted on the days. If not, just say, I have plans for March 16, so I will not be available here at the house. If she asks if the kids are going, just say no. Let her pi$$on everything in the house. Just remain cool as a cucumber and ignore her tantrums. Quickly turn your attention to something else. She want to know what's so important on that date, b/c she had plans too. You do not give her details about your GAL. She has your number if their is an emergency. Nothing else really concerns her about your plans. Don't let her dominating personality back you into a corner. Don't let her become your excuse for not having the freedom to GAL once in a while.

Every person who comes back to the board and tells us how much happier they are, tell us how they did it. They let go of their sitch and GAL. That is how you will find the guy you were before M. Every person is given the same 24 hours in every day. It's up to us as how we use it.

[
Quote:
quote]Originally Posted By: sandi2
So, back to becoming Mr. Personality. If you stay focused on yourself, instead of what your W is doing/thinking......your kids win, you win, your future relationships win......and maybe even your M will win. What do you say? Want to give it the ole college try? How about giving it more..........how about giving it your all?
Start by inwardly taking a very long look at yourself. I think you have already seen mistakes you made in your R with your W. You also see where you've narrowed your personal world, considerably.


I’m committed, but I’m not sure what I am doing so far is getting noticed for the most part. As I have said, I have been doing a lot with D14 and S8, which she has noticed in a negative way judging by her comments to D14. I go out occasionally to do my own thing, not telling her what it is I am doing or even that I am going most of the time. Usually it consists of going somewhere to walk or read. Not exactly what you would call interesting, but I am hoping she will think I am doing other things. Sometimes it is during the day on my days off, sometimes after work and occasionally in the evening on my day off. Don’t get me wrong, it is not two or three times per week – usually once a week to once every week and a half. She has only shown that she has noticed once – the first time I put cologne on before I went out. I did not receive a warm reception the next day.[/quote]

I guess it is pointless for me to tell a newcomer LBH to stop worrying about whether or not his W notices. She will notice, okay? She probably won't like it. Why? B/c you waited until she was emotionally finished with the MR before you got off your a$$ to make the changes she is now seeing in you. But that's fine. If you want to really get her stirred up, wait till later in the evening, then put on your cologne and head out. "I'm going out, don't wait up". laugh. I could probably tell you a lot of ways to get her ready to chew nails. But the goal is not to make her angry. It is to make you appear more mysterious and interesting. Let me ask, do you live in city or rural area? Just was wondering what might be available for you.

Quote:
My life is work. That’s it. I think if I start by changing that, I will be much more content. Sounds a lot like GAL, doesn’t it?


A lot of hard working men become their job. They lose themselves in their work. I am embarrassed to admit that I had many years under my belt before I realized that this is how most men show their love for their family. He is the provider and protector in the family. He wants them to have as good a life as he can afford. So, his whole life is work, work, work. Unfortunately, some wives forget to let her H know how much he is appreciated.

I am encouraged that you followed up on my suggestion of the self evaluation. This post is ending much better than I thought reading the first few words. laugh I am not the best writer, and I don't mind answering anything you don't understand. I don't know all the answers, by any means........I am referring to something I have said that may not make sense.

[
Quote:
quote]Originally Posted By: sandi2
Only, it's a little crazy, b/c even though she doesn't want to be his W......she still expects him to act like her H.


You don’t say? I never noticed…
This part actually drives me the craziest. She still “notifies” me about things that need to be done and expects me to do them, yet she doesn’t do a thing for me.
To be fair though, she has shown a few acts of kindness towards me over the past couple of weeks.[/quote]

I'm sure it is crazy for the H. Here's the thing. The WW has turn completely selfish. In fact, that's her motivation. If something does not benefit her in some way, shape, or form........then she's not interested. She want to keep her secret A with OM, but she still has certain benefits in the M to her H. She can be unfaithful and betray her H, and turn around and play happy family when it suits her.

Quote:
I would have walked away. No questions asked. But, as you said, children complicate things and I do still love her. We have 33 years invested in each other and I can’t see throwing them away without giving our best effort to work things out
.

That's what I suspected, which is a good answer. I have seen some men who fit your dating history of not having an abundance of girlfriends......and they just turn to mush at the thought of losing a woman that treating him horribly. Those are the ones I have a hard time understanding. I am not as cold hearted as I might sound at times. I have had divorce all around me, so I've seen good results and bad results. I think you still have a level of self-respect that she has not completely stripped away. You love your children and do not want to split the home. So, we are going to support you as best that we can, okay?
Posted By: Si_07 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/08/18 11:42 PM
Hi rminer, as always with Sandi, you are getting some great advice. I haven’t read your story from the beginning, sorry, but reading recently I understand how hard it can be to change the thought process. I to was a guy that would do anything for my family, my W, always trying to make sure she had everything she wanted but along the way I forgot about me and my life. I had nothing except for work and home... It took awhile to get out of the place but I did..

Suggestions I would make are to look for Meetup groups or FB groups in your area. Over the last 2 years I have joined about 8 different groups from hiking to Expat, and it’s all about getting out and meeting people, talking to people other than your kids. It’s great that your kids want to be with you, I know this feeling, just yesterday my D5 says she wants to have 6 days with me and 4 days with W and it’s because I play with them, listen to them and involve them in activities. Another thing I did was that I found a local sports team and starting taking the kids on Saturday nights when it falls on my weekend. It’s not high level so it’s cheap but it is different. W doesn’t do anything like this with them.

Like Sandi said, get on that calendar first and say you are going out. Make plans and stick with them.

When you think she won’t see, trust me, she will especially since you are still in the same house. I have been physically separated for 2 yrs now and W is still tracking me.. Even yesterday, she picked up D from my place, I handed her a bag of some food that D likes since I don’t see the kids for 5 days now. W first question was “Are you going out of town?”
I said no but I’m rarely at home when the kids are not here, (which is true), W stood on the doorstep for 5 mins not saying anything, looking lost, like she couldn’t process that information... Inside I smiled.

Getting out there and meeting people will change your outlook, will help take away that focus on W and bring back the confidence in yourself. Save yourself first then you will see how things go...
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/09/18 04:03 AM
I have some advice on the confronting.

First sandi is right. There is no wrong or right time. Every situation is different. Take her advice on compiling enough evidence. Because once you confront that evidence will NOT BE AVAILABLE ANYMORE! The one thing WW wives get really good at is learning from their mistakes and going stealth. I could give you a laundry list of ways my WW has done that over the last 2 months.

When you do confront, do NOT BE SAD or NEEDY! That comes off as pathetic. Be firm, in control, but obviously angry. No yelling, but think of the stern father approach.

Lay your case out, the evidence you have, but also have a clear direction forward. Again deliver firmly, sternly, but in control.

"Your choices are A AND B." Have A and B clearly defined in your mind. Set the boundaries right then and there. Again do not play your cards. You can tell her that what your preference but be clear that IT IS HER CHOICE!! This is important. If you try to sway her to staying in the MR and working on things she will flee from it!

Lay out the choices, tell her it is up to her because, here is the thing, IT IS UP TO HER.

LBHs ask all the time: when will my wife change. The answer is so simple it is stupid: when she wants to. That may be now, that may be weeks, months or years, or it may be never! You have to be prepared for the worst.

When you confront her she will likely blame you, make excuses, deflect. ANYTHING but own up to her behavior. WWs do not take ownership for their behavior. They just don't. They can come with endless jusitifications for their actions. DO NOT ENGAGE HER ON THOSE. That is what she wants. Talking about her reasons for doing what she is doing deflects the conversation from WHAT she is doing. That is counter-productive.

Read all of Cadets links before confronting. Especially the validation one. Be ready to validate her feelings but not give in to her reasons.

She will start a lot of sentences with "I feel". Again, she is driven by emotions and feelings not logic. DO NOT TRY TO COMBAT feelings and emotions with logic. To a WW logic makes no sense. Only what she feels does.

Be prepared for her to rewrite history. "I was NEVER happy." "I never loved you." Lots of nevers and absolutes. Again this is driven by her current thoughts a feelings, and reasoning with her will not work. "You loved me enough to take vows of marriage with me!" "You loved me enough to have kids with me!" Etc. All may be true but she is not about truth right now.

2 major rules if and when you do confront:

1) DO NOT REACT EMOTIONALLY TO HER WORDS. She is going to say a lot of things, most of them not true (see rule #2) just to get at you. Be turtle with a hard shell and let them bounce off that shell.

2) BELIEVE NOTHING SHE SAYS. Her words will not match her actions.

One last suggestion, do not suggest MC. Just don't. She will agree because it lets her off the hook. She will go relunctantly so that later she can say "yes we tried MC to save the MR". If she brings it up, be open to it but set a boundary. "I will only do MC IF you are willing to fully commit back to the MR." Again, she may suggest it just to ease her conscience. That will become a priority to her after you confront.

When I confronted my wife she immediately said she didn't want to be married anymore. That then dominated the converstion and I let her off the hook for her EA. I also begged, pleaded, reasoned, made all kinds of offers, etc. Terrible behavior. My wife actually was very affectionate with me the next couple of days. Why? She was trying to ease her conscience. I asked her about it later and she said "Well I knew you were hurting and wanted to try to make you feel better." BELIEVE NOTHING THEY SAY! She was trying to make herself feel better!!

Good luck, and buckle up. If you do confront the roller-coaster ride will go from 5 to 10 immediately.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/09/18 01:47 PM
sandi, you posted while I was typing, so no I didn’t see your second post.

I am going to respond to both in this post.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
I wonder if the laid back spouse begins to rely upon the outgoing spouse's personality when meeting new people, going to new events, etc. Do you know what I mean? Perhaps the quiet, laid back H feels that his W's personality will cover for his tendency to withdraw, shy away or not engage as enthusiastically, not appear as friendly or bubbly, or doesn't start up conversations with people he barely knows. Maybe you can answer this for me.



My W and I don’t go many places to meet new people, but yes, that can/does happen. When I am not in my element, I tend to sit back and assess people before I engage. This does make me appear not as friendly and I know this. Once I know what I am dealing with, I can start a conversation, but it will take a little while.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
When you are with your WW in the presence of your children, do not act as if you are shunning their mother. Don't ignore her, but neither should you be totally focused on her. Treat her respectfully........but it doesn't mean you have to stand there as she verbally belittles you, or something of that nature.



I am glad to hear you say this as this is essentially how I have been handling things. We don’t talk a ton, but if she wants to join the conversation, I include her. She has been trying to join more and more conversations as of late.

Things are very civil now. She doesn’t attack or belittle. I have only had one instance in the past few weeks that I have had to draw a line with her, and that went well.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
I encourage you to be careful when speaking about your WW. It is not a contest to see which side the kids choose.



I say nothing negative at all. I am letting the kids make up their own minds on this. I have outright told them I don’t want them to choose a side as their relationships with their mother is important. They are seeing what she is doing and are very upset with her about it.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
If the kids are feeling the strain between you and the WW (and I'm sure they must), try to make plans with them for something fun on your day off work. Yes, you will need to put the house on hold......but your family is more important at the moment. No matter their age or gender, they need time with daddy.



They are feeling the strain quite a bit and have been striking up conversations about this sitch with me on their own. D14 and S8 have been asking me to do things with them like never before and D14 has come out and said that she needs to “get away” from the house. Her relationship with my W has soured quite a bit, so I am making it a point to take her somewhere a couple of times per week even if it is just for an hour or two.

I can’t really put the house on hold for financial reasons. We are living in it, so I can work on it most any time I like. To make more time for the kids I am limiting myself to days off only. On my days off I am getting up earlier and working four hours or so. I am finished by noon, leaving the rest of the day free.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
I had some relatives who built their own house, and it took forever. The W told me they nearly D over it.



I KNOW this is part of the issue.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
I want you to interact with your WW as if she's a checkout clerk. At least, as best that you can, under the circumstances. When you see her, smile and speak. It is fine to show a level of friendliness. Remember, you are Mr. Personality. If she is wearing something pretty, it's okay to compliment her. If she is cooking dinner, it's fine to comment about how good it smells, or tastes. Just make short, and don't keep on keeping on. That would be classified as overkill. The other thing to remember with complementing her is not to get too intimate or sexual, since she has OM. IMHO, I would not joke about sex, or imply you want to have sex with her.

In the 37 rules, if you are the one who usually starts conversations with your spouse, then don't initiate conversations, but wait for the spouse to start. The reason I included that rule is b/c many H's would talk too much to their WW. They would try to keep her engaged in conversation (either on the phone or face to face) b/c they saw it as way to get closer or fix the problems, when actually it was pushing her away. Most times, it would lead to a R talk, which needs to be avoided by the LBS. Those H's were too emotionally attached, and the WW sees it as clingy, needy, and unattractive. Most H's I see come to the board, say way too many words when they interact with their WW.......or they think the 37 rules are suggesting they don't say anything at all. The rules were designed to guide newcomers, until the couple has reconciled. If you have any questions about them, please ask me. In the meantime, you can say something to your W, but don't initiate conversations. You know the difference. BTW, if you aren't applying the 37 rules, I encourage you to do so.



I am SO glad you included this! I did take this in the 37 Rules as “sit in silence until she speaks” and that is not what I have been doing. It didn’t make sense to me to do it. We live under the same roof and the kids see how we interact, so I thought I was destroying this rule. How I have been handling it is by acknowledging her when I see her in the morning or at night. Maybe a follow up question about something benign that she doesn’t really have to put forth much effort in answering. Sometimes she will try to start a conversation about household things, which I engage in. They have morphed in to other conversations a few times, but I allow her to do most of the talking. My goal was just as you said – to not let her think I am ignoring her. We have not gotten close to an R conversation.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
when you start going out, she'll expect you to tell her where, when, what, with whom, and when you will be home.



The few times I have gone out she hasn’t said a word about it. The only times I have gotten a reaction is the first time I went out and came home at 3am (forgot about this one in my last post) and the first time I wore cologne out (I NEVER wear cologne anymore). I got a very cold reception the following day on both of those, but nothing verbal.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
I hope you won't misunderstand anything I've said. I am not telling you to "nice" your WW back, b/c it won't work. I am simply trying to give you a picture of how to interact with her. Has any of this helped you? Do you have questions?



Yes, it has helped a lot. I am doing the 37 Rules, but the interacting with her was the part I thought I was doing wrong because I do talk to her. I don’t initiate conversations, but I will say things to her first so she doesn’t feel that I am mad or ignoring her. When she speaks, I respond and let her keep talking if she feels like it.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
However, I want you to stop obsessing about the confrontation. If you don't, then all this other stuff I have put out here on your thread the past two days will go in one ear and out the other, b/c all you can focus on is confronting her.



I don’t mean to obsess over it, but I do think of it a lot. That is the part of the whole process that scares me the most. That conversation will most likely determine the course of my M. If I do it wrong, it’s game over. I’m trying to prepare myself to do it right.

I am listening to everything you say and will be doing what I haven’t already started. I’m a planner, so I tend to gather information and prepare ahead of time, that’s all. I’m not going to confront her yet.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
I think your male ego wants her to know that you know what she"s doing.



Hell yes it does! Honesty is something I demand from everyone around me – especially my family. This deception is driving me insane, especially since she thinks she is pulling one over on me. The lies are the part that I think bug me the most at this point. Once the details come out I’m sure that will change.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Do you see it as ending the A?



No, I don’t. Not at this point in time at least.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
How will she see you returning to the fun loving guy you once were? Did you even read my second post?



I did, but after you posted your second post. I was typing while you were posting.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Your attitude and general lighter mood, & friendliness will send out more messages than you know.



This I have been faking and doing a pretty good job of it. Since I have been hanging out with the kids more, the attitude has been more sincere. I have noticed changes in her too that I am hoping are because of this. I was going to post about that today, but I am running out of time, so I will tomorrow.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Do you have something fun planned for this weekend? What are the ages of your kids? Better yet, why not give the information about you and W and the kids in your signature line.



Nothing planned at the moment. I gave D14 and S8 the job of deciding what they wanted to do Saturday night when I get home from work and Sunday afternoon. They are getting my whole weekend.

Kids are S23, D21, D18, D14, S8 – all in the signature line. So you don’t have to go look it up, D21 and D18 are both full time students commuting to college with full time jobs still living at home. S23 was a junior in college when he had to drop out due to medical reasons. Holds a full time job that is very willing to work around his medical issues. He still lives at home only because his condition will not allow him to live on his own at this point.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
What you may have misunderstood in my previous post, was my reference to you spending so much time on the building project. Maybe I have it wrong, but aren't you doing that after you get off your regular job every day?



No, not any more. When we were trying to get in to the house I was, but since we moved in a few years ago, I only work on my days off. That plus normal maintenance and chores chew up a lot of time.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
I don't you intended for this to sound like an excuse, but it kind of does.



You are right about this. Not intended, but does sound like an excuse. My work schedule is about 50 hrs/wk. 45 minute drive each way. Leave for work about 8am. Three nights per week I am not typically home until 9pm, two days I will be home usually by 5 or 6 pm. Off two days, usually Sunday and Wednesday.


That doesn’t leave a ton of extra time for much of a social life without being an absentee father, which I don’t want to happen. Staying out too late I don’t want to do either since this is one of the kid’s beef with my W. Occasionally they wouldn’t care because I never do it. Consistently, they would see me doing the same as her. I’m just going to have to walk a fine line on this one.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
I don't know what you mean by her losing the kids. Maybe you'll explain.



I will explain in further detail in another post, but the kids are turning on her and are all but through with her.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
If you want to really get her stirred up, wait till later in the evening, then put on your cologne and head out.



Fight fire with fire? This is exactly what she does. I have learned to ignore it, not asking questions or seeming to notice.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
A lot of hard working men become their job. They lose themselves in their work. I am embarrassed to admit that I had many years under my belt before I realized that this is how most men show their love for their family. He is the provider and protector in the family. He wants them to have as good a life as he can afford. So, his whole life is work, work, work. Unfortunately, some wives forget to let her H know how much he is appreciated.



I am glad you understand this because this describes my life perfectly. Although my W used to tell me she was proud that I was such a hard worker, I don’t think she really understood why I was. Funny thing is, after having some heart to hearts with my kids, they knew why I did it and appreciate all I did. I never expected to hear that from them since most of it was “behind the scenes” so to speak.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
I am encouraged that you followed up on my suggestion of the self-evaluation. This post is ending much better than I thought reading the first few words. I am not the best writer, and I don't mind answering anything you don't understand. I don't know all the answers, by any means........I am referring to something I have said that may not make sense.



I did and am still doing self-evaluation and let me tell you, it is painful. To really step back and look at your faults is not a fun thing to do, but I know in the end it will be worth it. I know I have never been perfect, but I can see many areas I can improve that I would have never seen before coming here. I guess I am still a work in progress.

Everything you are telling me is making sense. I have been making a list of questions that I will post in the near future. Hopefully you can answer some of them for me.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
That's what I suspected, which is a good answer. I have seen some men who fit your dating history of not having an abundance of girlfriends......and they just turn to mush at the thought of losing a woman that treating him horribly.



I’m not as much of a mush ball as I think you might think I am. She is the only one (outside of my daughters) who has ever caused me to melt, but I do have my limits. I truly hate the thought of losing her – she is the only one I have ever seen myself going through life with – but I am not going to be treated this way either. I grew up watching this movie and that was enough for me. Don’t need to see it again.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
I am not as cold hearted as I might sound at times. I have had divorce all around me, so I've seen good results and bad results.



I don’t think you are cold hearted. I think just the opposite. Why else would you spend your personal time here trying to help people who have played such a big role in screwing things up for themselves?

Sometimes you are blunt, but never taken as cold.

I do think you feel I am a PIA at times, which I don't mean to be. Maybe I am being overly cautious, asking too many questions that don't need to be asked or simply getting ahead of myself. I just like to prepare and know what I am up against. I'm your typical over-analyzer.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
So, we are going to support you as best that we can, okay?


I do appreciate it, sandi. You are part of a great group here and I’m not sure if I could save this M or myself without your advice.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/09/18 02:06 PM
Other than you having more kids, rminer, look at our signatures. eerily similar!
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/10/18 06:48 AM
Originally Posted By: Si_07
I haven’t read your story from the beginning, sorry, but reading recently I understand how hard it can be to change the thought process. I to was a guy that would do anything for my family, my W, always trying to make sure she had everything she wanted but along the way I forgot about me and my life.


It certainly is a change of gears for me. I've never really given it too much consideration and just accepted it as normal. Funny how that works.

Today my wife text me wanting me to fix a logistical problem for her to make her life easier. Normally I would have jumped through hoops to make it happen. Today I just empathized and in a nutshell "Good luck figuring it out."


Feels strange not being the one to fix her problems anymore.



Originally Posted By: Si_07
Suggestions I would make are to look for Meetup groups or FB groups in your area... ...Another thing I did was that I found a local sports team



Never thought of looking for groups like that. I will have to do that. Thanks.

We do have a pretty good OHL here. S8 loved going last year, so I bought some ticked for next weekend.



Originally Posted By: Si_07
When you think she won’t see, trust me, she will especially since you are still in the same house.



Well, let's hope she cares then. She is so wrapped up in her own world, she doesn't seem to care about anyone or anything she once did any more.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/10/18 06:50 AM
I noticed that too. Was going to mention it, but got caught up answering sandi.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/10/18 08:05 AM
I would like to add on to Steve's post about confronting a WW. I want to break down what confrontation is, and what it is not.

First and foremost, confrontation should ALWAYS be face to face. IMHO, it's not confrontation if it's not face to face. Don't do this through text messaging! The man needs to present himself as being strong and confident. He should be standing and posturing himself to show authority (hands behind his back). He is in charge here, and doing it over the phone or email......just shows her a weaker side of him. I realize we live in a tech society, but come on guys......be a man and face your betrayer.

Secondly, never let the W know the source of your Intel. Even if she guesses how you know. Even if you reconcile, don't reveal your source. Thirdly, it is not necessary to tell her everything that you know. In fact, you may want to keep that to yourself, in case it reveals a lie she tells you. And, fourthly, it is not necessary to prove you have evidence. Showing her the evidence and getting her reaction is not the goal of confrontation, Fifthly, the main purpose of the confrontation is to tell her you refuse to be in an open MR. Now, let me break this down.

As I have said many times, confrontation reveals to her that the H suspects, but she isn't sure of how much he knows. Most WW's will lie, play games (falsely portray remorse), lash out and blame the H, or get into a R talk. A lot of WW's announce they want to split assets and get a D. Some WW's will try to negotiate and tell the H she'll end the affair, but that she can't change jobs, or it's unfair to stay away from social events where OM goes, etc. In other words, she tries to appeal to her H's logic and tells him he is being unreasonable. smirk. If that doesn't work, then she will accuse him of controlling, etc. Don't negotiate, don't argue. Just state your boundary.

If you expect remorse from her, you may be disappointed. You should not confront to get an reaction from her. Very few WW's have true remorse at the time they are confronted. They may feel some guilt at being caught, but feelings of remorse may not come till after she goes through affair withdrawal and begins dealing with her deep resentments. Remember, WW's feel justified to so the things they do. Most WW's never really intend to end contact with the OM, but will pretend to go along with it, in order to buy more time. So, getting the WW's reaction should not be the goal, b/c it can't be trusted.

Fewest of all WW's are those who repent and show humility for their betrayal and horrible treatment toward the H (at the time of confrontation). Even if your W should fall into that rare percentage, once the withdrawal craving hits.......she will still have to deal with it. She will be tempted to reach out to OM, in spite of what she said on the day of confrontation. She has to be accountable just as much as the most cold, hateful, hard hearted of WW's. A drug addict is a drug addict......regardless of how badly she feels about it. The affair has been her drug of choice. She will need a plan to follow, or she will not make it out of the gate.

The WW does not need "evidence" shown to her.....but she may demand it. The Intell is not to prove to her what you know. Some men have hired a P.I. and had a mountain of evidence, and the WW would still deny and lie. So if your goal is to get an admission of guilt from her, I think you might fail....even with evidence staring her in the face. How many criminals go to the pen proclaiming their innocence, but the evidence proved otherwise. Your decisions are not based on whether or not she confesses, but rather on the evidence/intell. I know many H's want to hear a confession, but even if he gets one......it should not change his boundary. Think about it. .

Funny, but so characteristic of women, she will be more focused on wanting to know what evidence you have and where you got it. Do not tell her the source! I've continued to repeat this statement b/c of it's importance. You are not required to present her with your evidence.......and besides, she'll just shoot it down. She'll use it to distract and confuse you. The intell is for your knowledge. She already knows what she has done!

Confrontation is not a courtroom where proof or innocence is established. You already know she is guilty. She knows she is guilty, but in the majority of confrontations, the WW will try to lie her way out of it. Now listen carefully. Do not argue, get mad, and reveal what all you know, trying to get her to admit it. Okay? Get that out of your head. Just look her at her sternly and say, "We both know you are lying". You are not Perry Mason, who always got the guilty to confess. Even if she confesses, it doesn't let her off the hook. A confession doesn't mean she's sorry. Being sorry doesn't mean she won't continue contacting OM. Do not melt or give a sigh of relief if she confesses. It does not change the state of affairs (no pun intended).

So now, you state your boundary. "I will not be part of a M that has three people" (or however you want to say it. "I won't stay in an open MR"). This is a very serious statement. You are not asking her what she wants to do! You are not telling her how much you don't want a D. (Most H's want to jump in and start assuring the WW how he doesn't want to get a D, or how he is committed to saving the M, or he tells her how devastated he feels). Do NOT tell her any of these things. Telling the WW how you feel will ruin the entire effect and purpose of the confrontation. It takes the spotlight off her cheating and puts it on your wants & feelings, which she could care less about, at the moment. It is not to argue her case! She's guilty and you both know it! And now, you've stated your boundary. Don't keep talking, trying to lay emotional guilt on her, trying to get a desired reaction or let her know how hurt you feel.

So now, you are telling her that you won't live in an open MR. This is the purpose of the confrontation. If that is as far as you get before she completely goes batsh't crazy......then leave the house. Don't try to continue, b/c you have stated your boundary, and that is really all that is neccesarry at this time.

After you state your boundary, don't express your personal feelings or desire to save the M. State a clear boundary that you will not continue in an open MR. This is usually when the WW will try to blame the H for everything (again). Remain calm, while she talks. If she begins to cry, do not show compassion. Do not put your arms around her, or touch her whatsoever. WW's use tears for manipulation. Remain strong and firm. If she is blaming you or throwing accusations at you......don't say anything in defense, don't argue. If she calms down and is not yelling and showing out of control behavior............or threatening to call the cops, getting physical, etc........ then you can softly validate that you hear her and you regret past mistakes and you're sorry she felt that way. But limit the validation to that one sentence and do NOT keep on & on. This is not the time to go into a relationship discussion again. This is about her affair, not your past mistakes. A WW will pull you into a R talk before you know it, so stay on your toes. This is not the time to talk about the past. Don't tell her how you are working to change, or any of that stuff. Confrontation is not about any of that, and and it distracts from the purpose here. It's up to you to control the conversation and stay on track.

The next step is to tell her the consequences if she continues contacting the OM in any way. That being, you will prepare to take necessary steps to legally end the M. Don't discuss who leaves, who gets what, how long she has, when to tell the kids........none of that stuff! This is where men mess up, b/c the WW will distract them and start talking about child custody or whatever. Stay on track and tell her you aren't going to discuss all of that stuff at this time. It may be really difficult, but you have to keep pulling her back to the topic at hand......which is your boundary.

If the WW is showing a lot of hostility, and especially if she is getting out of control and making threats to file trumped up charges, it would be better to end the confrontation without stating the consequences of her affair. At any point, should she start getting violent, the kids are scared, it's time to end it. Go outside, leave for a while, or something, but don't continue staying in her presence.

What I wish H's would get through their heads is that the WW should be concerned about what her H might do. No, I don't mean she should worry about violence from him, but what his plans are about D and how it could affect her. Most H's are so eager to jump in there and talk & talk about how he's going to work to change for the better, and commit to the MR......and "invites" her to commit with him. sick It all says one thing to the WW.......her H is a wuss! So, guys, please avoid making that mistake. This is the time to be Rhett Butler and tell Scarlett you don't give a #?%! Keep this short and simple (even if I can't explain it in a short and simple post).

If she is out of control (screaming, shouting accusations or threats, etc.), and if her emotional state does not appear to be receptive to hearing your terms to stay in the M,.......then save it for later. Recently, I had been explaining to LBH's what would be needed as stipulations for reconciling......and in some cases, I think it may have been a bit much to include at the end of the confrontation. So, you have to use your own judgment and see how your WW is responding (which is another reason to have face to face confrontation). I mean, if she doesn't care if you D her or not.......why would she care to hear your list of reconciliation terms? She won't. So, in some instances, it might be better for the H to wait until she asks him what it would take to keep the M together. But if he waits, and she doesn't ask and she continues contacting OM (and she definitely will), be prepared to physically separate......or file for D. But don't do any of this in-house separation business. That is nothing more than major cake eating for her, and terrible humiliation for him.

***************************************************************

The betrayed spouse is the only one who should have terms for reconciliation. WW's feel entitled to lay out conditions the H must meet..... but the WW is the offender.... and the betrayed spouse has stated his boundary.

If she wants you to stay in the M, then the following criteria should be met:

*She texts or emails the OM (in the presence of H) and sends to H's phone the same text message she writes OM, ..... Which states that their affair was the worst mistake of her life, and that she loves her H, and will no longer betray him. All contact between them will stop immediately, and she does not want OM trying to contact her. She will not acknowledge OM, and she doesn't want him acknowleging her......for any reason. Then the H reads it before she sends it. She is not to express anything, other than what the H instructs.

*After sending the letter/text, she immediately (in the presence of H) deletes all previous messages, contact information, and blocks OM (and OM's W) on her phone, email, social media, etc. All photos, letters, notes, etc. that are saved in separate files are to be deleted. All traces of OM, keepsakes from their A, gifts, etc. are to be destroyed. She does this in the presence of her H (else she won't do it, and she'll lie).

* If she works with OM, she must resign from her job and find employment elsewhere. If she belongs to the same organizations, social circles, etc. as OM, she must remove herself.

*She must agree to be completely transparent about her phone (and other sources of communication), her activities, and accountable for her whereabouts. She agrees that you can look at her phone/apps activity whenever you want......without asking her or giving notice. (For the record, she will claim you want to control her. This is not controlling, but giving accountability. She will go through withdrawals when she ends contact with OM. Her willingness to be transparent helps assure you the affair has ended, and it helps her through the withdrawals to give accountability. This will not last forever, but you do not give her a time frame. You do not tell her when you will check her phone, so she must have no secret password locks. Do not ask her to give you her phone. You check when she is asleep or in the shower, etc. The point is to not to cause more tension and hostility from her while you look at her phone). There are to be no secret friendships, especially with men.

* She gives you all pin numbers and/or passwords and does not change them without, first, notifying you. She is not to sleep with her phone, carry it in the bathroom while showing, walk out of the room to take calls, etc.

* She is not to take overnight/weekend trips without you. No Girls Night Out, or any other excuse to stay away from the house for any supcious period of time. Once you feel assured she is over the OM and your MR is making progress, then this requirement can begin to tapper off.

* She must agree for both of you to work with a professional therapist who specializes in couples healing from affairs. It's usually best if the H does the research and chooses the therapist, or she might pick one that is not pro-marriage and actually counsels couples how to be divorced and stay friendly! (This is important, b/c couples need guidance in piecing their M back together).

*. She agrees to sleep in bed with you (no children allowed). This does mean she is forced to have sex with you, but there will be no more separate rooms or sleeping arrangements. This is suppose to be a reconciliation.

Fair warning.......she will hate all of the above!

Transparency does not last forever. It usually tapers off. Some H's have reported going a year, maybe longer, without checking her phone. Then her behavior would get a little strange, so he would decide to check. Sure enough, she would be back into her old ways. Personally, transparency helped me, as a WW going through withdrawals. Once the withdrawal period is conquered, the H can lighten up some......but don't announce she no longer has to be transparent.

She will test his transparency plan. Most WW's will get by revealing as little as possible. Even if she appears to have a change of heart.......she really hasn't. She might be showing more cooperation, but the OM is still in her head. The affects of addiction could last for for six months......even longer. It depends on the individual woman, the sitch, etc. a good case scenario would be four months of hard withdrawals, then taper off for another eight. Every sitch is different, so I hesitate giving time frames. The only reason I give this scenario time frame is to let H's have some idea of what is in store.

Some men say, "Well, I can't control her. If she's going to cheat, she will find a way". That is very true. If the H can live with not knowing and her suspicious actions........that's up to him. But if he feels he has to see her putting forth effort to once again have a trusting and respectful relationship......then he can give her a chance to follow his transparency plan......or he can go ahead and divorce her. I only see three options to go. Remain as is; leave; or heal together.

Some MC don't encourage transparency. It is not punishment. It is accountability. It is her opportunity to show she is serious about ending the A and working on the MR. So, I hope you will have a MC who supports it.

Your W will have some hostility at first, especially if she is not remorseful for her betrayal. You aren't asking her to like it. You are asking her to agree to do it. It's her choice, but if she wants you for a H, she'll agree to your terms. Just remember.......that agreement does not fix her waywardness. Getting the OM out of her life will help, if she doesn't turn to OM#2, #3, etc.

Her feelings of love/desire for you cannot return until she gets the OM completely out of her head. She has to do the actions first, then the feelings will eventually catch up. It's not fun for her. It's awful. She'll feel as if she's withdrawing from a drug. She'll get angy, moody, and depressed. Ending the affair, is only a step. It does not end her wayward mindset. Only your W can change her mindset, but you can influence it a lot.

Don't push her about "feelings" once she agrees to transparency. All she needs to show right now......is willingness. Without her willingness, you have nothing. So, don't make a big deal about how she feels. She may make a big deal about her feelings, b/c a WW operates on feelings. But always come back to, "Are you willing"?

The H must understand that his W's agreement to his reconciliation terms......is not an automatic fix. After therapy, the withdrawals, lots of prayer, and tons of work......her natural loving feelings can return. On the other hand, there is no garantee, b/c it is up to her to do the work in her heart. I want H's to understand that his changes may be overtly, but most of the WW's changes will be in her heart. It is a process. A long, long process. He has to hold her feet to the fire about showing respect for him.......b/c that is what killed her loving feelings. So, she cannot disrespect him in front of the kids, him, or others. He can't stop what she feels in her heart.....but he can stop her outwardly disrespecting him. And, it will influence her heart and bring back the love.

He should not appear as her lord & master, nor her prison guard. However, he should NEVER underestimate the lengths she will go, in order to conceal her contacts with OM.

How can he tell if/when she's really changing? When her words/actions/attitude are parallel.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/10/18 08:58 AM
Wow, sandi. That is a lot to think about. Thank you for laying it out so clearly.

I think you are right when you say that the WW will deny it. My W is very strong willed and does not like to admit when she is wrong. She will definitely do this.




Originally Posted By: sandi2
The WW does not need "evidence" shown to her.....but she may demand it... ...The intell is for your knowledge. She already knows what she has done!



I'm glad for the clarification on this. You kept saying not to reveal your source but get intell. It will be pretty obvious to her where the intell I gather came from if I show it to her.

The tough part about that will be suppressing my "male ego" as you call it. I will want to show her I'm not as dumb as she obviously thinks I am.


Now here is a H U G E "if" question. Say she becomes so guilt ridden she decides to out herself to me. Should my approach be the same?

I only ask because I know someone that this happened to. It is a very rare occurrence I know, but I thought it might be worth asking.



If we ever get to a transparency plan she will protest. Is it wise to explain the need for it? Somewhere you said that it was for the LBS's comfort in the process. Should that be said or something similar?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/10/18 09:01 AM
FWIW, in my previous post, I was not suggesting that you should or shouldn't confront your W. I suppose I should have started my own thread, since I ended by writing a book on your page. blush I just wanted to explain in more depth about the issue of confronting a WW.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/10/18 09:14 AM
Oh, I know.


Keep posting good books here. I don't mind. It makes it easier for me to find them! grin
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/10/18 11:08 AM
Quote:
Now here is a H U G E "if" question. Say she becomes so guilt ridden she decides to out herself to me. Should my approach be the same?

I only ask because I know someone that this happened to. It is a very rare occurrence I know, but I thought it might be worth asking.


Not sure what you mean by "should my approach be the same". Act as if you didn't know anything about it? I don't think that would be completely honest, do you? It's one thing for you to choose not to confront your WW about an A, and to focus on making changes on yourself. But to lie, if your W went to you so guilt-ridden she could not live with herself until she confessed her affair? No, I couldn't support that decision.

I think you should simply tell her that you knew....or had suspected (whichever is the case) and that after you gave careful consideration....you made the decision to make changes by changing yourself, first...........or something to that effect.

You never know how the other person will react when you tell them something, but if you lie or pretend you never knew/suspected........what does that make you? We have to do what we know in out soul is the right thing to do. Just as you feel the right thing for you, currently, is to make needed changes in yourself, rather than confronting your W about her A. That is your decision. It's your life to live. You may later change your mind, and decide you must get this stuff out in the open and settled......IDK. However, I'm pretty sure if you were to pretend you never suspected an A after she is eaten up with guilt........only to change your mind later, and tell her you knew all along.........that would not be a wise decision! I think our spouses are smarter than we often give them credit, and they certainly can read us like a book, if you know what I mean........so I don't suggest you pretend to be shocked if she should confess some day.

If I misunderstood what you meant, please explain.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/10/18 11:30 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Not sure what you mean by "should my approach be the same". Act as if you didn't know anything about it? I don't think that would be completely honest, do you? It's one thing for you to choose not to confront your WW about an A, and to focus on making changes on yourself. But to lie, if your W went to you so guilt-ridden she could not live with herself until she confessed her affair? No, I couldn't support that decision.



I should have expanded on this question a little bit.


What I meant was not acting as if you didn't know. I couldn't pull that off.

What I was asking is if the approach of telling her that I couldn't live in an open M, stating consequences if she contacts OM, transparency plan, etc. would change.

When my children confess their "sins" before I find out, the repercussions are not nearly as harsh as if they don't. Would the same apply here?


Maybe I should have simply asked "What would change in the discussion if she were to miraculously confess?"
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/11/18 05:01 AM
Quote:
What I was asking is if the approach of telling her that I couldn't live in an open M, stating consequences if she contacts OM, transparency plan, etc. would change.


Okay......let's pretend she comes to you tonight and spills her guts. What should you do? IMHO, you would tell her you won't stay in an open M, so if she isn't prepared to be faithful and work on the MR.....then you will be meeting with a lawyer. She will either give an answer that is positive or negative.....that would direct you in how to continue the conversation. But I don't think a H should immediately go all melty-man and tell her he wants a chance to prove himself, or invite her to start a new MR with him, or any of that stuff, b/c she will see him as a wuss. He should show strength and sterness. If she agrees to end all contact with the OM, commit to working on the MR, and agrees to his terms......then they can go from there. Otherwise, he needs to follow through with his boundary, b/c she's not going to be faithful. A guilt-ridden confession does not wipe the slate clean. She still has to go through the process that I've previously explained. However, it would probably help, if she could feel guilt over her actions.

So, what if the confession comes in a few months from now? I would keep a poker face, and ask her if she is still contacting the OM, and if she is........then tell her you had suspected, and had hoped to make changes, but you cannot continue staying in a MR of three people.... if she refuses to end contact with OM. If she says the A has ended.......you basically tell her the same thing. If she wants to save the M, then add about NC with OM (and other stipulations you feel are necessary), and especially attending professional therapy with you.......and you choose the therapist.

It gets a little complicated trying to give a pat answer for scenarios. I mean if she approaches you in two years and confesses she was in an A but ended it a year prior to confession, are you going to lay down the terms of transparency? At that point, you've already lived with her for two years.....knowing/suspecting she was in an A! See what I mean? I suppose the sitch would determine the stipulations. But I think seeing a professional therapist to heal from an A, would definitely be in order.

Sorry, if I'm not giving short, simple answers. When you choose to stay and work on yourself and not confront her about the A.......it is not a short, simple, situation.
Posted By: kiro Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/11/18 12:05 PM
Hi I am new and this is the first time that I post something. I am not sure if this is the right place to ask my question or if I should create a new thread..

I am separated since December. My wife left the house and rented an apartment by herself. I had been pursuing her for the past 8 months, calling her every day, getting her gifts, being kind, loving, etc. The more I pursued her, the more it seemed to push her away. Since last week, I decided to stop pursuing her and take care of myself instead. I haven't called her for a week now, and I don't intend on initiating any conversation any time soon.

I hope that things will turn around and we'll be able to get back together, but I don't keep my hopes very high. What I want to know is what to expect if she ever decides she wants us to reconcile the marriage. I am not sure I want to be with someone who could repeat the same thing again. I value commitment and am ready to work on the relationship, but from what I've seen the past year, my wife doesn't seem to value commitment as much. She was ready to give up on our 17 years of marriage way too easily.

I know it is too early to think about this now, but I am curious how did other people handle a reconciliation after going through such a difficult time. I am starting to feel that if she wants to come back one day, it will actually be up to me to decide if I want to take her back or not... Am I making any sense?
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/12/18 10:54 AM
Kiro,

Sorry to see you here.

I am no where the reconciliation point yet but hopefully will get there.

You would be better served by creating a new thread in this forum.

Everyone will see it there and you will get some good responses.

The best of luck to you!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 03/21/18 03:57 AM
Don't leave us. How are things going?
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 04/01/18 07:40 AM
I’m still here. Just been tied up with other things lately.

As far as how things are going, I’m not sure, sandi. Things have changed, but I'm not sure that they are real changes or not.

As far as GAL, I have gotten in contact with a few old friends and have been catching up on things. Unfortunately they live out of state, so getting together isn’t going to happen any time soon. I’ve gone out a few times, but nothing major. Work and commitments to the kids have kept me home more than I planned. I have been doing things around the house that are just for me though and have been spending a lot of time with S8 and D14 which has helped keep my spirits up.

I’ve been working on how I interact with my W and the image I project a lot. Even when I start getting depressed or mad about the sitch, I act as though I am happy. Not the easiest thing to do, but I’m doing it. That is where the kids are helping a lot without them knowing it. Our relationships have gotten much closer and are keeping me going. So much so that I actually have found myself getting a bit jealous when my W is laughing or doing something with one of them. I know that is irrational since I have made it clear to all of the kids that they don’t need to be sucked in to this and that they can have any kind of relationship with their mom that they want to have, but still it is there.

I am getting better at validating her feelings and listening more closely to what she is saying, which I think is playing a part in her attitude towards me. I’m not perfect at it yet and I am getting the feeling that she is trying to tell me something that I am not picking up on. She has said a few things that seem to be hints, but I am not quite sure.

My W’s moods have been up and down, as would be expected I suppose. Overall, she has been much friendlier and has started doing a few “wifely” things for me. In the last week has started talking to me a lot more. Don’t get me wrong, I know she is not back, but I am hoping she is softening a little bit. These changes came after I set boundaries a few times and a few words were said.

We had an argument about three weeks ago and this is when things started changing. It was a typical tit for tat type of argument, but I did some validating during it and drew a boundary. She brought up some things she has said in the past as well as a few new things, which I validated if I could. I also pointed out a few things she was/was not doing that she was also calling me out on. Not what I should have done if I was truly validating, but I did and it caused some changes.

During that argument she brought up in particular: Not doing things for her (she cleaned up a mess the dog made that I was unaware of so I did not help), not doing things with her, not telling her where I was going or telling her I was leaving (you were right, she does notice this) and I play on my phone and not talk to her (I stopped playing on my phone at home when she mentioned it in November).

In rebuttal I reminded her that she stopped doing anything for me last November (I mentioned making enough dinner for me to have some in particular), I did ask her out once (before I came here) but she said “no” even though I gave options so she could keep her plans with her friends that night, that I am not required to inform her of my activities especially since she does not do the same for me and I stopped playing with my phone, but she texts, plays on Facebook and watches TV on her phone and ignores everyone else.

As I said, tit for tat stuff, but some things changed afterward.

Since then she has changed the sheets on the bed (she sleeps on the couch) and makes enough dinner for everyone. She has even went as far as to make food for me specifically if there wasn’t enough left. One evening I was eating chili on the couch and she noticed I did not take any sour cream, which I normally do. She asked why and I told her it was already put away and I didn’t want to dirty another spoon. She joked that I always eat after things are put away and that I need some because I can’t afford to lose any more weight (I have lost 20 pounds since this started and I was borderline skinny before). This was the first time she has shown any sign of concern towards me for months.

A week later she was out most of the night Saturday. When Sunday rolled around she went grocery shopping with my car (D18) had hers at work. When she came home, D14 and I went to the store to get a few things I needed for work. When we got home just before 8pm, my W was watching something in the family room, so D14, S8 and I went in to the bedroom to watch a show they wanted to see. We stayed in there until bedtime. When I told my W goodnight, she said “nice seeing you” very sarcastically.

Finally, last week is when the biggest change occurred.

My W was putting together a banquet for the organization she is involved with for S8 and getting virtually no help from anyone, not even the OM who is the leader there. Needless to say she was stressed so I offered to help a bit. Not because I was looking for brownie points, but because it was for my son and I would have offered if everything was ok between us anyway. This was on a Wednesday.

The next day she sends a text to me telling me to do something on her vehicle. I respond “Please?” because she demanded I do something. She did not like the response and got sarcastic, which I guess I can’t blame her for. I told her that she could have asked instead of order me to and that I don’t like being told what to do. She said she didn’t mean to order me. I said I understand that now, but that is not the way it read.

She said that she would just go "cry for the millionth time and go on with life like I always do." I asked why she cried over that and she told me that I make her "feel like crap." She went on to say that She "literally cries all the time now" and that after our argument I mentioned above, she went in to our closet and cried for an hour. I of course said that I never mean to make her cry. She replied that she doesn't doubt that and she "doesn't really ever know the right thing to say to you anymore."

To that I replied that she could stop shutting me out and try letting me in. Mabey we could have a real conversation about anything other than the kids. She then asked how could she let someone in who always finds fault with wht she says. I validated this and told her that it is not my intent to do so.

Some of this I know she is really feeling, some of it she is "rewriting." I am very careful about keeping things positive, so making her feel like crap is probably from boundary setting. This is something she is not used to, so me taking more of a stand and telling her point blanc what I will and will not accept is very different to her. I am never mean about it, just stern and to the point.

As far as "crying all of the time," I don't know. After we had the argument that I mentioned above, I was in and out of the house the rest of the day and I saw her on each trip. It is possible that this happened when I went out for the evening. As I was leaving, I told her I was going out for a while and she had a look on her face that was somewhere between disbelief and sadness.

I probably went too far with the "let me in" line, but one of her complaints is that we never talk. As part of my 180's I've been trying to make it easier for her to talk to me, so my thought there was that I would give her permission to try. I'm not the one trying to initiate (for the most part), I'm just trying to be more approachable.

When I got home about an hour after this exchange my W was in the kitchen finishing dinner for her, D14 and S8. I greeted her and got a cool reception, but I acted as if nothing was bothering me and asked what needed to get done that night for the event. Afterwards I went to take care of a few things I needed to do. When I came back 30 mins. later, she had made dinner for me and told me to eat before it got cold. This was a surprise since it would have never happened before. After I ate I sat down to help her until I went to bed. During this time we had our first real conversation since this started in November.

The next night was the same thing. I came home, ate, helped her and we talked like adults. We even had a few laughs. At one point my W said something and I didn't hear what she said. I asked and she replied with a smile on her face, "see, you don't listen to me." She knew i just didn't hear it, but I think she was trying to tell me something.

The next morning while we were getting things ready for the event, I could have sworn I heard her call me "Hon." I dismissed it as me hearing the wrong thing. We drove separately so we only had to make one trip and while we were driving I called her to ask a question. During the call I thought she called me "Hon" again. When tearing down after the event, she called me "Honey" as I was walking away to something. I asked D21 and D14 if they heard it too or if I was just crazy. They both said that the heard it and that they had heard her call me "Hon" earlier. I can attribute once to being habit, but three times makes me wonder why.

Ever since then she has had a completely different attitude towards me and the kids. She talks and laughs with everyone and is actually paying attention to D14 and S8. Im not being treated as the enemy either. As I said, I know she is not back, there is a very long way to go and this could change at any time, but maybe she is starting to think about what she is actually doing to her family. On the other hand, she could just be trying to suck me in again.

I have been listening with my heart as you told me to do, sandi, but I am worried that she is trying to send me a message that I am missing. She has made it a point to tell me that I never spend time with or go out with her to do something, we don't talk, etc. I've been following the advice of everyone to not believe what she is saying, so I have been writing this off as just idle talk. After she said "you don't listen to me" the way she did, I've started wondering if I am not hearing everything. Is this just her digging in the past or talking out of guilt, or do you think there is something to it?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 04/01/18 12:49 PM
It's really good to hear from you.

Quote:
Work and commitments to the kids have kept me home more than I planned. I have been doing things around the house that are just for me though and have been spending a lot of time with S8 and D14 which has helped keep my spirits up.


I never have trouble finding work around my place. In fact, it seems to follow wherever I go. You are a homebody and a hard worker, so naturally, there will always be something you see that needs attention. Have you gotten the calendar out and planned some activities with the two youngest kids? I'm glad you are spending more time with them and the R is closer. You've just got put a little more effort into finding something fun to do. You know what they say about all work on no play, don't you? How can you expect someone like your W to be interested in a man who does nothing but work all the time? I can tell ya, that after a while, a W won't appreciate all that hard work......if her emotional needs are sacrificed in the deal. You say some of that work was for you........okay, if you say so. But can you tell me just one thing you did for fun, since the last time you posted? And don't you dare tell me you work for fun, b/c that's not good enough and won't pass for GAL. Women divorce men who do nothing but work!

Quote:
I’ve been working on how I interact with my W and the image I project a lot.


Great! That type of work ^^^^^^^ is A-okay.

Quote:
Even when I start getting depressed or mad about the sitch, I act as though I am happy. Not the easiest thing to do, but I’m doing it.


No, it's certainly not easy.

Quote:
That is where the kids are helping a lot without them knowing it. Our relationships have gotten much closer and are keeping me going. So much so that I actually have found myself getting a bit jealous when my W is laughing or doing something with one of them. I know that is irrational since I have made it clear to all of the kids that they don’t need to be sucked in to this and that they can have any kind of relationship with their mom that they want to have, but still it is there.


No, it doesn't sound irrational, but it concerns me. Wasn't it you that told me that your personal world had been pretty much narrowed down to your W and kids? If most of your friends live out of state, and you aren't out GAL......where do you get a sense of commrodery, except for your children? Perhaps you feel a threat of losing them whenever you see fun interaction with their mother. ((hugs))

Quote:
I am getting better at validating her feelings and listening more closely to what she is saying, which I think is playing a part in her attitude towards me. I’m not perfect at it yet and I am getting the feeling that she is trying to tell me something that I am not picking up on. She has said a few things that seem to be hints, but I am not quite sure.


Women are really bad to hint and speak in codes.......I'll be the first to admit it. IDK, I guess it's just something in our genetic make up. For some women, it makes them sound so pathectic to try and put into words what they really want.......and for the other women, they simply don't know how to tell their thick-headed H's...... in a way he can get it. wink Hey, that's what LBH's claim.......that their W didn't tell him in a way he could understand. Anyway, just keep doing what works.

Quote:
My W’s moods have been up and down, as would be expected I suppose. Overall, she has been much friendlier and has started doing a few “wifely” things for me. In the last week has started talking to me a lot more. Don’t get me wrong, I know she is not back, but I am hoping she is softening a little bit. These changes came after I set boundaries a few times and a few words were said.


Wonderful to hear! I suspect the boundaries and you standing up to her has a lot to do with the changes. Some wives, who have been ignored/neglected for a long time, are like kids. What I mean is that they act badly to get some type of attention from the H.......even if it's his negative attention. Just don't get too relaxed, and think everything is fine. However, this update is encouraging to hear.

Quote:
We had an argument about three weeks ago and this is when things started changing. It was a typical tit for tat type of argument, but I did some validating during it and drew a boundary. She brought up some things she has said in the past as well as a few new things, which I validated if I could. I also pointed out a few things she was/was not doing that she was also calling me out on. Not what I should have done if I was truly validating, but I did and it caused some changes
.

Okay........I think. (lol). You kind of lost me there on the end.

Quote:
During that argument she brought up in particular: Not doing things for her (she cleaned up a mess the dog made that I was unaware of so I did not help), not doing things with her, not telling her where I was going or telling her I was leaving (you were right, she does notice this) and I play on my phone and not talk to her (I stopped playing on my phone at home when she mentioned it in November)


As you've previously explained, you spent every spare minute working on something. If your W has felt neglected, not heard, not validated, and you didn't show her attentivness, then I think this her way of trying to tell you. A woman is like a flower. If you don't tend to her emotional needs, she'll turn ugly and die. I think you focused on working too much, and you started tuning out the things you considered as unimportant. One of worst habits a H can do is not listening to his W. It is so rude! Whether or not it's important to you......it was to her, and she is trying to connect to her H. If he won't listen to unimportant things, why would she want to share that which is intimate and personal with him? Having a H who doesn't hear her, destroys a woman's sense of value! It's the beginning of making her feel unappreciated, unimportant, and unloved by her H.

So, hopefully, you are improving in those areas^^^^^^^^. She wants you to show her she is still that special girl that has your heart. She wants you to do some action that simply says you care.........like cleaning up the dog mess. Listen, I think she wants and needs just the two of you to share in some activity that is not classified as "working". You know......like a few decades ago before all the kids came along?

I am not defending a woman who turns to another man while she is still M. But, I have to ask why you think she turned to someone else? She wants you to not only validate her, but praise her when she does something well. Notice her when she looks extra pretty. Share yourself with her. I think when a couple stops having pillow talk, they lose something very special in their relationship. I think her actions have been horrible toward you, but I also think she has tried to get your attention. I hope you are hearing me loud and clear.

Now, don't misunderstand me. I am not saying to smother her and slobber all over her. However, just start doing little things.......as an act of consideration (like when she took the sour cream to you). And for crying out loud, stop making her have to ask you to fix her car. I've told you that is a sore spot for women. It makes me angry and you aren't even my H! I'm not saying she should have ordered you to do whatever it was that she wanted........but had she already asked you to do it........like the last time there was a vehicle problem? Okay, I'll move on from that subject.

Compliment her on the cooking, or how you appreciate having fresh sheets. Compliment how she looks wearing a particular color, your favorite dress that she wears, or something about her appearance. Don't overkill. But just try it and see how she responds.

Have you noticed any changes about the EA? Is she contacting OM? If she is not contacting OM, then I have several suggestions in how you step up your game. But if you suspect the EA is ongoing, then I'll wait.

You still need to call her out whenever she shows disrespect. Don't stop doing what works.

I really think you have paid too much attention to working and neglected your W. Then, she gets cold and resentful and it becomes a tit for tat situation that runs into months and then years. It took her getting unbearable to live with, before you started looking for help. Now that you see first signs of improvement....don't go back into that old mold. If the EA has ended, and I pray it has........but want to hear your thoughts. Then we'll talk more.

Please don't wait so long to get back to us.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 04/05/18 10:31 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Have you gotten the calendar out and planned some activities with the two youngest kids?


Yes. The youngest two and I have a standing “date night” every week. It may just be stay home and watch movies, go to dinner, bowling or whatever they want. Both want to learn to shoot bows, so our next “date” is going to the Archery range.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
You say some of that work was for you........okay, if you say so.


The things I’ve been doing around the house are things I’ve been wanting to do for a long time but never have – start working out again, reading some books that I’ve never picked up and getting my workshop set up so I can restart a hobby I had when I was younger.

But yes, I have been working on the house too.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
But can you tell me just one thing you did for fun, since the last time you posted?


Without the kids away from the house? Ummmm…

Originally Posted By: sandi2
No, it doesn't sound irrational, but it concerns me. Wasn't it you that told me that your personal world had been pretty much narrowed down to your W and kids? If most of your friends live out of state, and you aren't out GAL......where do you get a sense of commrodery, except for your children?


Yes, that was me, and you are right.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Perhaps you feel a threat of losing them whenever you see fun interaction with their mother. ((hugs))


You nailed it, and that is why I say it is irrational. I know I won’t lose them, but it feels like I will. They have always been closer to their mom for obvious reasons, so when I became the “preferred” parent, it felt good. They need that relationship with my W though, so it’s bittersweet.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
...and for the other women, they simply don't know how to tell their thick-headed H's...... in a way he can get it. wink Hey, that's what LBH's claim.......that their W didn't tell him in a way he could understand.


That’s exactly what happened here. I know now she had been trying to tell me, but I just didn’t get it.

The last real R talk we had was before S8 was born, so probably about ten years ago. Since then she had been telling me how wonderful I was and how lucky she was. The last time she did this was less than a week before the switch was flipped, so I was completely blindsided.

I guess I was just hearing the positives I wanted to hear and not the rest of what she was saying.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Just don't get too relaxed, and think everything is fine. However, this update is encouraging to hear.


While I am happy with the changes, I am being very cautious and not getting my hopes up. I know it could all be back to the way it was in a heartbeat.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Okay........I think. (lol). You kind of lost me there on the end.


I meant that my validation technique wasn’t very good at times. Some of the things I validated I also told her she was doing. How it resulted in changes I’m not sure.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
As you've previously explained, you spent every spare minute working on something. If your W has felt neglected, not heard, not validated, and you didn't show her attentivness, then I think this her way of trying to tell you. A woman is like a flower. If you don't tend to her emotional needs, she'll turn ugly and die. I think you focused on working too much, and you started tuning out the things you considered as unimportant. One of worst habits a H can do is not listening to his W. It is so rude! Whether or not it's important to you......it was to her, and she is trying to connect to her H. If he won't listen to unimportant things, why would she want to share that which is intimate and personal with him? Having a H who doesn't hear her, destroys a woman's sense of value! It's the beginning of making her feel unappreciated, unimportant, and unloved by her H.

So, hopefully, you are improving in those areas^^^^^^^^.


I am trying, but she is making it very, very difficult. She has been pushing away everything and as soon as I think she is starting to let me in, she slams the door again. It is very hard to tell if it is doing any good sometimes.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
She wants you to show her she is still that special girl that has your heart. She wants you to do some action that simply says you care.........like cleaning up the dog mess. Listen, I think she wants and needs just the two of you to share in some activity that is not classified as "working". You know......like a few decades ago before all the kids came along?


How do I do this and still follow the 37 Rules? Maybe I should suspend most of them for the time being?


Originally Posted By: sandi2
And for crying out loud, stop making her have to ask you to fix her car. I've told you that is a sore spot for women. It makes me angry and you aren't even my H! I'm not saying she should have ordered you to do whatever it was that she wanted........but had she already asked you to do it........like the last time there was a vehicle problem? Okay, I'll move on from that subject.


No, this was brand new and the first time she told me about it. It was just a blown fuse.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Compliment her on the cooking, or how you appreciate having fresh sheets. Compliment how she looks wearing a particular color, your favorite dress that she wears, or something about her appearance. Don't overkill. But just try it and see how she responds.


I have actually been doing this for almost a month now, with the exception of her looks. There have been a lot of “thank yous” for little things and acknowledging when she does something for me. In return she has done the same for me.



Originally Posted By: sandi2
Have you noticed any changes about the EA? Is she contacting OM? If she is not contacting OM, then I have several suggestions in how you step up your game. But if you suspect the EA is ongoing, then I'll wait.


Yes I have, but I am 99% sure it is not over. I’m thinking she is just hiding it more or simply doesn’t care if she gets caught – she is leaving her phone unattended a lot more now.

Up until the past two weeks she had been on her phone in the evenings constantly when I am home. She was on Facebook, Netflix, Youtube and texting the OM mainly. Now, she checks Facebook and gets on Youtube some (not as much) and is not texting much at all. I have a feeling she is texting him when I am not home or after I have gone to bed but for some reason not in front of me anymore. It will be very hard to tell until the A is called out. She is the treasurer of the organization they are both in, so they talk about that quite a bit.

It could be that she suspects I know or it could be cooling down. I’m not sure. I stopped checking the text logs because it was just driving me crazy.

It could also be that D14 and S8 have flat out told her that they do not like the OM one bit, so she could just be hiding it from them as well.

I am taking all the improvements with a grain of salt at this point and not getting my hopes up. Just one day at a time…
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 04/07/18 11:00 AM
Ok, I did what you said and asked my W out. After a little hemming and hawing, she said yes. That was three days ago.

In the morning she was not in the best of moods when I got home from taking D18 to school. The night before we were talking while watching TV and everything was still fine, so I wasn’t sure what would cause the sudden mood change.

Her mood stayed about the same the rest of the day until after I went to pick D18 up. On the way home she told me that she and D21 were going to an Honors Banquet for D21 and that she was receiving an award. About an hour later my W sees D18 and D21 walking down the driveway to leave and asks where they were going dressed up. D14 tells her. Of course my W got extremely mad asks why we were not invited. I had already asked D21 about it and did not want to tell my W why, so I just told her that I had found out about it when I picked up D18, so I didn’t know.

A short while later both my W and I had to go pick up a vehicle. On the way she was still upset about not being invited and was venting about it, saying that the kids are “unappreciative” of anything she does. This went on the entire drive.

I had been thinking of asking my W to dinner since you suggested we do something together and this would be the last day for several weeks that we could possibly go out. I was a bit nervous about it, but about a mile from our destination I mustered up the courage to ask her to dinner.

The first thing out of her mouth was “What?! You want me to go somewhere with my hair looking like this? Where to, McDonald’s? I can’t go anywhere.” I made a joke about being rejected and told her I just thought maybe she might like to go to dinner and she said yes, “but we have to go home to fix my hair first.”

Once we got home she immediately started getting ready to go and I went to start a fire (did I mention we heat with wood?). An hour later we were finally ready to go. She had put on a nice pair of black jeans, nice blouse, hair done, perfume, makeup, just like when she goes out with her friends – or on a date.

We decide on a place to go and she wasn’t overly talkative on the way keeping it to small talk. We arrive, I open the door for her and she makes a comment about how men don’t do that for women anymore and thanks me.

We were seated and my W immediately orders a Margarita. I wasn’t planning on drinking, but I decided I needed something to loosen me up, so I ordered one too.

We started out talking about the menu and what we wanted. She brought up a Mexican restaurant that we always went to when we were dating in High School. I smiled and reminded her about the dish she always ordered and she added “and I always gave you my beans.” We talked about that place for a few minutes and got back to ordering.

Once we ordered she started talking. It started out with small talk until I asked about one of her friends who is having marriage problems. I have mentioned her before – the one who’s H is treating her exactly like my W is treating me (minus the A) and my W says needs to divorce him but always has an excuse why she can’t. We talked about that for a little bit and the conversation naturally starts changing topics.

We were talking about S8 and I mentioned that he asked me to teach him how to ride his bike this summer. We live where there are no sidewalks, so he has had a hard time getting the hang of it. I said that I would need to take him to the park where it would be easier. My W agreed and said that she would like to have a bike. I told her I would as well, so maybe we should get some and we could go for rides, she said it was a good idea.

For quite a while we were talking and laughing about all sorts of different things having really good conversation. It was fun.

At some point, and I can’t remember what we were talking about, she said “If we are still together.” This is where the R talk started. I asked if she was thinking about D and she said “I don’t know.” She said that we don’t want the same things and I replied that I think we do. “I want to travel and do things, but you don’t” was her answer and I said we have talked about doing that after the kids are grown and our parents are gone (besides, we don’t have the money and she knows this). She also said that we never talk about the future and that we can’t seem to get the house finished.

She went on to say that I don’t seem to like who she is now and that I never want to be with her. I asked why she thought I have always sat in the living room instead of another room. “So you can cuddle with D14” was her response (D14 likes to sit on the couch and put her head on my shoulder when watching TV lately). I then asked why I would ask her out if I didn’t like being with her. She said “I thought you were just being nice.”

The R talk kept going for a few more minutes and the conversation started to switch back to more basic things. Then the alcohol started catching up to her and she became much more loose with what she was saying.

She started telling me about Facebook and how when she changed her profile picture she started getting friend requests from men she did not know and how one that she did accept now messages her and professes his love for her.

My W went on to tell me about the things she does when she goes out and where she goes with her enabling friend. She said “You think I spend a lot of money when I go out, but I only buy one or two drinks. The rest I get for free.” I ask how and she tells me that the bartenders give them to her or someone will buy them for her. I say “So you flirt to get free drinks.” “Yeah, why not?” is how she answered.

She told me a bit more of her evenings out and all but said that she gets high now too. That in itself doesn’t bother me because I’ve never been against it, but it illustrates just how much she has embraced the “Party Girl” lifestyle. Six months ago she would not have even thought of doing any of this. You are right, sandi, she is not the girl I married.

She went on to tell me about the tattoos she is going to get. I knew about two of them – one for her deceased brother and one with D21 (who now says that she is not getting at tattoo with my W because of this sitch). She then shows me a picture of a tattoo she is going to get with her enabling friend and where she wants to get it. I don’t particularly like tattoos and she knows this. I don’t tell her not to do it, but I don’t sound overly enthused either. She went on to tell me that she is getting all three of them and that she is almost 50 years old so she can do what she wants. She also essentially said that she is doing it because I once told her that “she wasn’t going to get a tattoo” and that when someone tells her she can’t do something she is going to do it. For clarification, I have never told her she couldn’t get a tattoo. I have just told her that I am not a fan of them but I understood one for her brother and D21.

I think she could tell talking about her bar nights and tattoos was starting to aggravate me, so she changed the subject and asked if I had told S8 that he couldn’t quit the organization he is in. I said “no” and asked if he had told her that he wanted to quit. My W said he hadn’t, but she had told him that he couldn’t quit because he said that he liked karate better (they have conflicted with each other a few times lately). I didn’t tell her this, but S8 has told his siblings he wants to quit because of the OM.

From there it progressed in to general things about the organization and the OM, but not in the context of the A.

She started telling me about how his son wants to quit, but the OM will not let him and how the son has not shown up to any of the meetings for the kids his age, which is upsetting and embarrassing the OM since he is the assistant leader there. She kept talking about this for a few minutes and then started talking about what they had planned for next year. This was supposed to be the OM’s last year as leader, so I stated that I thought he was stepping down to take over at the higher level. My W said he was supposed to, but “I am making him stay.” I asked why and she said that there is no one to take over and that the organization would dissolve if the OM didn’t. She said that they can’t get anyone to volunteer for lower positions let alone leader, so “she made him stay.” I asked if it has been made clear to all of the parents that help is needed because no one has ever mentioned to me that they need volunteers (even before the A). My W said that it has been made clear to everyone so I pointed out to her that I am there more than most parents, so if I didn’t know I’m sure there are many others who don’t either.

During this conversation my W was pretty tipsy and started telling me things about the OM and his family that were way too personal for their relationship to be strictly professional. At one point my W called the OM’s W “a real piece of work.” This was the third time I have had confirmation that the OM is married.

We had been at the restaurant for almost three hours at this point and they were closing. We left and had to go to the store to pick up a few things my W needed for dinner the next day. On the way the conversation continued about volunteers and how no one will help. My W said that they needed someone to run one of their main events next year or else it will not happen and once again said that the organization would dissolve if OM didn’t stay on. I asked about time commitments and what exactly would be involved and the requirements. I said that depending on the requirements, I might be willing to take over as leader. She told me, but made it clear that the OM was staying for the next year.

When we were at the store we continued talking about things. Still well under the influence of the Margaritas, she made the comment that “we could just have an open marriage so I can get what I want and you can get what you want.” I didn’t say anything but I did give her the “over my dead body” glare. She laughed and told me that I should see the look on my face.

When we got home and were walking in to the house, I told her that I had fun with her. She didn’t answer and started talking to S8 who greeted us at the door. I figured she was ignoring the comment, so I didn’t repeat it. I went to the basement to load the furnace, she went to change her clothes. By the time I came upstairs, my W was sleeping on the couch.

One thing that I did not fit in to the story above is that I did compliment her appearance. When I did, she said “Thanks, but I know you hate my hair straightened,” which I do (my W has beautiful hair and she looks SO much better with it wavy). I replied “I do prefer it not straightened, but it still looks nice.” She then said that she gets a lot of compliments when she straightens her hair, so I told that her hair is beautiful and she has always gotten compliments on it no matter how she wears it. She smiled.

Overall, it was a fun evening. I spent four hours with my W alone for the first time in over five months and actually shared ideas and got to know each other a little better. I tried to make it all about her and let my W do most of the talking.

Whether it was a success, I’m not sure. She showed the rebellion I have heard about here, but also opened up a little bit so I don’t know what to think at this point.

The next day we had a very long text conversation about our R. I won’t give the blow by blow on it because of length, but I will hit the highlights.

While I was at work, my W sends a text to me - a one liner with a grocery store item. I asked if it was what she forgot the night before and she said “Yep.” I reply and she comes back with another one word answer. I ask if she is feeling a little less stressed than the day before. Another one word answer. I then ask if she is not feeling very talkative today. She replies “Just trying to figure out how to be happy again.”

I told her that I know she is. I added that she didn’t respond the night before, but I hope she enjoyed dinner. She asked “Respond to what?” I told her that I had said that I had fun with her when we were walking in to the house, but she didn’t respond. My W said that she “didn’t realize” and said that “I did enjoy going out with you, but things are different.” She added that she was going to thank me but fell asleep before I came upstairs and then said “thank you.”

I told her that I was glad she did and agreed that things are different, but we can figure this out if we want to. I also said that I wasn’t putting pressure on her, but if she wanted to do more things together I would be willing to. I then commented on the night before and that the Margaritas were stronger than average.

My W then said that she has always wanted to spend time with me but she thought I was tired of being with her after all this time. She then replied to the comments about the night before.

I then told her that she was the only one I have ever wanted to spend time with and that she and the kids are the most important things to me. Another comment about the night before saying we should go back again when we want a little tequila.

She then said that for so many years the house is where I spent all of my time and agrees we should go back.

I acknowledge that and tell her that I regret the house more than she will ever know. I go on to tell her that my only reason for working on it so much is that whenever I complained about it she would tell me that the house is exactly what she wanted and that she loves it. My only thought was making her happy with it. I then told her that I secretly dreamt about walking away from it or it being destroyed so we could.

She then told me that the place she lives isn’t important and that she just wanted to spend time with her family. My W went on to say that she resents the house because it took me away from her and the kids and that it seems that we won’t ever get away from that house.

I comment back that I thought the house was what she wanted, so I have killed myself trying to give it to her. All I ever wanted to do was make her happy.

She replied that she has been trying to tell me for years that the house is killing us but felt I wouldn’t/couldn’t walk away at any cost.

I then said that I have been trying to tell her the same thing. We haven’t heard what each other has been saying and that no house is worth my family.

She then said that she “hopes these revelations are not too late.” I told her that I hoped too and that if we take the time to figure it out, we still have a chance.

My W then said that she really doesn’t know and that she gave up a long time ago. She added that we have both changed a lot, that she feels I don’t like who she is now and that I only want and love the girl from long ago.

I replied that everyone changes and that is what keeps it interesting and that I want to love her for who she is. I also said that what I don’t like is not being included.

She explained that she stopped asking me to go places because I was always working or worried about money. She started feeling rejected. She then asked me if I wanted to go to a movie that night with her and D14.

I validated this and told her I never rejected her and that I was sorry I made her feel that way and accepted the movie invite.

She told me that she felt the house was the death of what we had together. She understood that I wanted to make everything good for her and the kids, but she started to feel I was too proud to let it go – that I would rather have the house than her.

I told her that it wasn’t pride. It was my commitment to her and not letting her down. I never wanted anything more than her.

My W then said “Maybe if we had talked more we would have understood each other more.”

I agreed and said that we need to stop speaking in code.

She agreed to that, but said “So much has happened between us I don’t know how to fix this, or if it can be fixed.”

I acknowledged she feels this way and told her I don’t know for sure how to fix it, but I do know that if we don’t try, we can’t. Communicating like this is a good start though. I then asked “Isn’t that part of why this all happened in the first place?”

She agreed it was.

I replied that if we know that and we stop going down that road, it should open the door to figuring out the rest.

She said that maybe things are too broken to be fixed.

I said “Only if one of us wants them to be” and that it will take both of us.

My W came back with “I’m very skeptical you know. I had completely given up.”

I told her I know she is, but now that we each know some of what the other is thinking, we have a place to start. Neither one of us has ever given up easily on anything and our family is worth fighting for.

She then said that she has put up so many walls because she doesn’t want to be hurt anymore and that she “thought we were going to be divorced for sure, that it was just a matter of time.”

I agreed that she had built walls and that they were very high. I don’t think either of us wanted to hurt the other, I was sorry for hurting her and that I wished I had known I was. I went on to say that we now know the root cause of the problems, so we can avoid them in the future. I added that maybe it was time to take down some of the walls and start to build something new.

My W replied that she had built them so high “so I could block you out entirely so I couldn’t be hurt any more” and that she had started to live life without me because “I thought that’s what I was going to have to do.”

I told her that “I know your reasons” and that we don’t have to live life without each other if we don’t want to, nothing is set in stone and that I think there is something left that we can work with.

As I said, it was a very long conversation – it took most of the day. Other things were said, but those are the major highlights. At times my W sounded to me like there was no chance, and other times she sounded like she was willing to consider working on things. Her verbiage changed as we talked to sounding more positive to me, but I could just be reading in to it.

I probably said way more than I should have, but I was finally getting her to open up a little bit and tell me what was on her mind. It turns out it was in large part me working on that house so much just like you said.

When I got home that night she was kind of quite. We went to the movie and I sat next to her with D14 on my other side (D14 made sure we sat that way). We talked some while we were out, but not a ton. Last night when I got home, she was back to talking to me like she has been for the past few weeks.

So what do you think of the two interactions?

What should be my next move?
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 04/19/18 11:51 AM
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 04/19/18 03:05 PM
Wow. A lot to digest. I guess my only suggestion is to try to avoid another R talk for a while. Let this one sink in a bit. Some good stuff there and it seems she has an internal struggle going on like my wife did a couple of months ago. A lot of your sitch reminds me of mine.

Keep up the good work though.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 04/19/18 11:24 PM
I can relate to how your W feels about giving up on the MR. It's really hard to engage after you've completely given up. To think that was the first time you have been alone in five months.......is very telling of a lonely W. And, you had not talked about your relationship since before S8 was born. That's a long time! She was starved for your attention and some one on one time. Marriages have to be nourished, or they die. It's just that simple.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 04/19/18 11:38 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
I can relate to how your W feels about giving up on the MR. It's really hard to engage after you've completely given up. To think that was the first time you have been alone in five months.......is very telling of a lonely W. And, you had not talked about your relationship since before S8 was born. That's a long time! She was starved for your attention and some one on one time. Marriages have to be nourished, or they die. It's just that simple.





I've always like the analogy of a car. Keeping a car running requires routine maintenance. If you skip the maintenance and allows a major malfunction to occur, it will be very costly to fix. Marriages are the same way, they need routine maintenance to avoid a costly breakdown.
Posted By: rminer Re: Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2 - 04/20/18 11:10 AM
It has been five months because that is when this sitch started. She would barely talk to me let alone be alone with me.

You are right though. We didn't do enough together as a couple and our M wasn't nurtured the way it should have been.


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