Friends, I apologize my laptop won't let me cut-and-paste the link to the previous thread. I'm not sure what's wrong. I hope it doesn't get deleted.
In any case, I've been married for eight years to a Middle Eastern man and we have a three year old daughter. My husband left two years ago for another woman and came back after eight weeks when the affair ended. We never truly fixed things and he left again in September and now wants a divorce. I found out this week he's already dating a woman 14 years younger than I (I'm 39).
There's not much else to say since I posted a few times tonight but I wanted to make sure to start this new thread.
Nicole,
It's a struggle to find that which makes you happy. In the first few months after I separated I mixed in some mundane DB (did stuff but didn't enjoy it) with a lot of nights alone drinking and angry. Not the best thing to do, but it's what I did. Took awhile to get my mind around being on my own, and it took a longer time for me to find things that I enjoyed doing and only happened after trying a lot of things and moving somewhere that I had always wanted to live.
But the fact is I eventually stopped feeling sorry for myself, I stopped yearning to have someone that didn't deserve me, and I found my happiness and started living. You will get there too, there are struggles, there are hard times, but you and your D will have an amazing family life, and NicoleR will get her groove back.
I read in one of your last posts in your previous thread that you stopped updating because you didn't want to keep saying the same thing (being upset about the sitch), but don't ever not post something because you think we don't want to hear it. Use this as your outlet, use us as your supporters to give you a shoulder to lean on. No one wants to see you sad and upset, but that doesn't mean we don't want you to tell us if that is where you are at.
You have gone through hell and back in the last two or so years, that's behind you, no more walking on egg shells, no more having someone around but being alone anyway. One step forward at a time and you will get where you want to, no deserve to, be.
Thanks Coconut. Looks like we've been married the same amount of time - nine-and-a-half years. There were still happy times in the last two years but not nearly as many as before in my case.
What I think would help would be to meet someone in real life like everyone here, who is going through a divorce and their spouse left them. That way we could help each other and at least call each other at night without disrupting their time with their spouse. I'll join a divorce support group when I move hopefully on April 1st. I already contacted them, but here in my current city there is just one group on Saturday nights and it's far away and too hard with my daughter at that time.
This week I haven't been able to sleep at night. I don't know how long that lasts, but it's really hard with only two or three hours of sleep each day.
It's like a nightmare that never ends!
Nicole, you might want to contact the divorce support group and ask them if there's anyone you can talk to now.
One of the divorce groups in my area had formed a bond after they finished their class, and the leader of the group put me in touch with them. It was really good to meet up with them and talk. TBH, a lot of them were getting their D's all finalized at the same time, and they were very positive about their lives at that point. It gave me some hope.
I'm sorry about your sleep problems. I had problems for the first few weeks after BD, but they cleared up after that. Have you tried any over the counter sleep aids?
You need your sleep, personally I think that's the difference maker to start stabilizing. I was using advilPM to get sleep at first, my doctor told me to switch to either benedryl or Dramamine (but for the life of me I can't remember which), but he said the active ingredient for sleep was the same without the acetametophen, which is easier on the stomach... Talk to your dr if you need something regular, but maybe try Tylenol or Advil pm to get a couple of good nights sleep.
As for having someone to talk to right here, right now, that is hard. I like holdings idea of reaching out to the divorce support group in your area, see if they have activities. If you aren't able, look my screen name up on FB, I'm not up at all hours anymore, but if I am ill chat. You will make it through this, u will be happy. I had to leave my son, my dogs, and everything we had acquired during M behind, and I love my new life.
Nicole, one of the best pieces of advice I was given was "fake it 'till you make it." We were all pretty miserable at the same point you are now, and "faking it" will actually have the effect of making you feel better. It's not always easy, and yes, there are absolutely going to be times where you are still miserable, but by changing the face you present to the world does actually make you feel better.
I agree with the other posters... you definitely need sleep. If you are having trouble, get some help for that.
Holding, thanks, that's a good idea. I'll try asking the local divorce group if I can meet with someone for the next few weeks until I hopefully move.
Coconut, I did try Dramamine one night but was dizzy in the morning. I can't take much because I have something called chronic gastritis but the past two nights I did sleep. I was almost hallucinating two nights ago and finally fell asleep. The main challenge is my daughter is wide awake at 6:00 AM so I can't sleep in. The only option is to go to bed when she does to get a full night of sleep which means no personal time to do anything else!
Jim, thanks. I am trying to fake it when I go out with my daughter because this is not her fault and she needs to feel like she has a normal life. I took her to a festival yesterday and everything was fine until there was dancing and seeing all the happy couples was really hard. At home it's harder because it's just my daughter and all alone, all day every day. Just the complete loneliness and isolation makes it hard to fake anything but I'm trying to keep going. Normally we'd go out more, but I can't afford for us to get the flu because there's no one to help my daughter and I if we get sick.
My husband didn't do anything regarding the divorce this past week. He only came once for 10 minutes to say hi to our daughter. He called last night to say he's not coming because he's too tired. I know the truth is that he's out with his new girlfriend every night having the time of his life. On one hand I want to intervene and force him to see his daughter, but on the other hand if he's just going to act miserable with her and keep thinking of his girlfriend I'd rather him just not come.
I just hope we can move on April 1st as I've been planning. And I wish to survive the divorce process. I immediately feel panicked whenever I think about facing my husband trying to fight for financial support knowing he just wants us to disappear so he can live his fantasy life with his girlfriend.
AT the same time, I remember now how this progressed exactly the same way two years ago when my husband left the first time. He stopped spending time with our daughter, stopped talking to me, started acting angry and saying he's miserable with me. Everything is the same except now he wants a divorce, but when the affair ended he was sorry and started acting normal again. I just wish in six or twelve months when the initial excitement of this relationship wears off my husband will at least start to see his daughter again and not be so angry at me. I wish we could delay the divorce until he's in a more normal state of mind. This wreckless lunatic who goes and wastes $8,000 on a spontaneous week to Dubai with his girlfriend and forgets he has a beautiful three year old daughter is not the man I married. I know the divorce will be terrible if we have to do it right now, but if that's what he wants then there's no choice because I can't force him to stay.
Nicole, at about the point you're at now, I can remember going to training with some people I didn't know. During a break, the instructor was talking about his wife and asked if we were married. I had to excuse myself so I wouldn't just break down and bawl in front of them. It's painful and it hurts, but I promise, it does get better. Slowly, but it does. Some days will be worse than others, but in general, you will get better.
if he's just going to act miserable with her and keep thinking of his girlfriend I'd rather him just not come.
he can live his fantasy life with his girlfriend.
You can't force him to come spend time with his daughter, and after what he's said, I think she's better off without his visits.
You're right, though. He's living in a fantasy world. But in the real world, he owes you financial support. Something I have realized is that most men see support as something to give AFTER they've paid for all their fantasies, if there's anything left, but in reality, it should be their FIRST obligation. When you get to court, ask that his wages are garnished, so you are guaranteed support payments. This is the horrible part of divorce, but he chose to go down this path, and there are consequences in the real world.
And fantasies end. No one knows if it will play out like last time when he came back to you. But even if he did, would you really want him back the way he is? Please say "no". Even if you do save the marriage, I really hope you make him do the work he needs to do to deserve a woman as wonderful as you.
I hope you are documenting all this time he is NOT there with his daughter. The judge is likely to award you full custody and the child support that reflects that. I am not sure what state you live in but alimony may be part of deal as well. Remember, this is your daughters money and right, don't let sentimental stuff get in the way of protecting her financially.
Jim, it is really helpful to know that others have experienced the same feelings. It happened again today at the beach. My daughter and I were literally the only ones who were not a husband / wife or boyfriend / girlfriend couple aside from a few teenage girls. I can't wait to at least get out of this city where everyone lives what appears to be a perfect married life. At least in big major cities there's more diversity. Regarding my husband coming back, that's too much of a dream-come-true to imagine such an option, but no, I definitely wouldn't take him back like before. I'm moving to our old city and if he wants to follow when he gets a job there and meet for weekly counseling and try a few dates or family outings then we could see what happens. Even then there'd have to be a commitment to long-term therapy and on my end it would be more of a business deal if we got back together. That might include the security of keeping our family together, the financial stability of two incomes, and at least some semblance of a husband. There'll never be the love and trust that there was in the beginning, not after knowing everything I know now.
Sara, documenting is easy because he basically stopped coming the third week of December. The visits that do happen are only around 15 minutes one or two times per week. I live in FL. I'm not sure about state alimony laws but he will be paying at least temporary alimony. I'm not unnecessarily worried about the financial part because almost everything works in my favor regarding this divorce. My husband won't have a choice. My husband stayed at home for over five years studying for the USLME's while I worked full-time before he got a residency, I sponsored him to immigrate here, I've done 100% of child-care while working multiple consulting jobs...now my husband is making good money and I'm not. So at least this is one positive.
All, tonight my husband stopped by to see our daughter for the usual 15 minutes. On the way out he said he'll stop by tomorrow so "we can talk about everything." For the first time in over a month he didn't have that angry hostile tone to his voice. I asked him if he found a lawyer yet and he said no but he heard about one. I asked "aren't you excited to move on with the process?" He said no, not really. I asked if everything's good on his end regarding our move up North on April 1st. He said yes but it's going to be very stressful for him not seeing our daughter, that he needs to figure out where he's going to live, and he's so busy and so tired...
It was the first time in over a month that my husband said a few conversational words to me. It was the first time that he sounded semi-normal. That's not to say anything has changed regarding the divorce but perhaps reality is setting in and it's not the happy fantasy my husband has been living this past month where all his problems will be solved the second he gets divorced. Perhaps he's waking up just a little. I don't expect him to call off the divorce because now that he tasted his freedom and the fun of having a 26 year old girlfriend there's no way he'd come back any time soon.
Nicole, I noticed a few things in your post. First of all, your tone is far more positive. Secondly, you no longer sound desperate. While missing the past, you are also thinking about the future, and steps YOU need to take to improve YOUR future, whether it includes him, or not. It also sounds like some of the luster has worn off, and he's seeing the reality he's created. These are all really good.
As far as everyone appearing to have the perfect married life, you know that's not true, right? A good portion of those "happy people" have big problems. Their problems are just different than yours. All I'm saying is don't compare your situation to the illusion you've created in your head. That's not fair to you.
Jim, yes I know most don't have a perfect life, but at the beach yesterday and many places I go, even Target, I see happy couples holding hands and looking so relaxed and talking to each other like best friends. That's how it was with my husband the first few years and I was so happy. I really loved my husband with all my heart. So to see all those couples knowing they're feeling such happiness is hard because this is the worst I've ever felt in my life and it's hard to see those things everywhere. As if Christmas wasn't bad enough now Valentine's day is coming. It just never ends.
I don't know if I was more positive but finding out about my husband's 26 year old girlfriend and their luxury trip to Dubai changed a lot of things for me. Now I know there's a pattern to my husband's behavior...when he's angry at me, stops spending time with our daughter, disappears, etc., it means he's found someone else. I will feel better if, or when, he gets out of this stage and can at least talk normally again without acting so hostile. Those 30 seconds last night were so nice. It was like he died and came back from the dead just for those few seconds. I already feel horrible again thinking about the divorce and how I'm going to survive. I'm looking forward to moving in April but I started to fear how I'll be able to work full-time. I don't think I can because the commute time and eight hours per day of working is greater than the number of hours the preschools / daycares stay open. I guess in most cases the parents trade off with drop off's and pick-up's but I won't have any help. So I'm not sure what I'll do. I'll have to hope for a miracle that someone will let me work seven hours per day or that I can find a flexible consulting job.
I sent the message too soon...
No I'm not desperate but still struggling to make it. I know I have to work and be solely responsible for my daughter and happiness or depression is secondary to just surviving. I'd be the happiest person in the world if my husband regrets what he did even if we can't stay married, just to know that those eleven years I sacrificed for him meant something, but unfortunately it's more likely he'll feel sorry for himself than for me.
I don't know. It was a very unlikely chain of events with the hurricane evacuation and my illness after my husband left in September. IF those things hadn't happened I could have practiced DB really well, just like the last time, and maybe we could have had a chance before my husband was out on the dating scene again.
Anyway I have a daughter who depends on me 100% so I'll keep trying to figure out a way to move and work and care for her.
You are correct, standard hours for daycare are generally not long enough to work a full 8 hour day and allow time for drop off and pick up, but we made it work for my son with no issue. Most places offer early drop off and/or late pick up, unfortunately there was generally an extra fee with that, but not an unreasonable amount. I don't think you will have a difficult time finding a place that will work for you.
During the summers it tends to be a little more expensive, especially for kids school age, but again, there are places that offer long enough hours to allow full time work. We utilized the YMCA during the summer, as they have full day all summer long programs as opposed to "camps" which generally only run 1 week at a time.
As for the mood your WH is in, or whether or not he is being kind or angry/distant, you will get to a place that it is immaterial to you, as long as you continue focusing on you. It's difficult to get to that place, but you don't want to get stuck with him stringing you along just by playing nice for 30 seconds.
I was on meetup dot com yesterday looking for something to do for the super bowl, and in my town (relatively small town) there were a couple of single mom meet-ups, some meet up at a local trail in town to walk with the kids, and some meet up at local parks. You may want to look into activities like that, it may give you an opportunity to socialize with a purpose if your having trouble getting out.
Jim, yes I know most don't have a perfect life, but at the beach yesterday and many places I go, even Target, I see happy couples holding hands and looking so relaxed and talking to each other like best friends. That's how it was with my husband the first few years and I was so happy. I really loved my husband with all my heart. So to see all those couples knowing they're feeling such happiness is hard because this is the worst I've ever felt in my life and it's hard to see those things everywhere. As if Christmas wasn't bad enough now Valentine's day is coming. It just never ends.
I don't know if I was more positive but finding out about my husband's 26 year old girlfriend and their luxury trip to Dubai changed a lot of things for me. Now I know there's a pattern to my husband's behavior...when he's angry at me, stops spending time with our daughter, disappears, etc., it means he's found someone else. I will feel better if, or when, he gets out of this stage and can at least talk normally again without acting so hostile. Those 30 seconds last night were so nice. It was like he died and came back from the dead just for those few seconds. I already feel horrible again thinking about the divorce and how I'm going to survive. I'm looking forward to moving in April but I started to fear how I'll be able to work full-time. I don't think I can because the commute time and eight hours per day of working is greater than the number of hours the preschools / daycares stay open. I guess in most cases the parents trade off with drop off's and pick-up's but I won't have any help. So I'm not sure what I'll do. I'll have to hope for a miracle that someone will let me work seven hours per day or that I can find a flexible consulting job.
I know how difficult it could be trying to make it work with a kid and no family to help. I was in the same position. But I will tell you it can be done. I don't recall he age of your daughter, but it is extremely doable. ANd you ex will be responsible for a percentage which will be pretty high given his salary. I am a nurse (I know, not your top profession now) and I began working shift work, and I had to get out of that because it wasn't working between ex and I and unfortunately had to flop around on different positions and commutes to make it work.
Anyways, I understand how scary all of this is. I was 27, and a new mom with an infant when this happened to me. And my ex an I were out of the same house the night he dropped the bomb. I get this sense from your postings that you don't have enough confidence in yourself to make this work and you NEED your H. It's scary as heck, but I imagine you are quite a capable woman if you believe in yourself.
You need to power empower yourself a little, ya know?
Hi Coconut, there must be a way to make it work because there must be other single parents who have to work full-time, right? But the longest the schools in my new area are open is 8:00 AM - 5:00 PM and the commute each way is likely to be longer than 30 minutes, so that doesn't allow enough time. I could try to hire a babysitter to do the pick-up but then I wouldn't see my daughter at all for five days a week except just to put her to bed at night and feed her breakfast in the morning. It seems I have to find less than full-time to make it work until I can figure out a better way.
I generally don't have any problems getting out or socializing (except currently we're not going to the children's museum and those kinds of places to avoid the flu) but now that I'll be single it'll be nice to meet single parents. The hardest part is feeling like I'm the only one who is unmarried because everyone who's close to me in my life is married, most happily. The few who aren't happily married still have stable lives. I'm glad most people in my life are successful and happy because those are the kind of people I want my daughter to know. I want her to have as many role models as possible to and see what happy families look like. It would help me personally though to know some single parents who aren't teenage moms. My friends just can't relate because they haven't been through something like this before. I'll definitely look for the local single parents group when I move.
No matter what I won't be able to restore what I've lost any time soon and this is the hardest part to accept. Not just the loss of my husband but the financial losses, the loss of stability, the loss of my husband's family, the loss of my health, the setbacks in my career.... It's hard to let go of this resentment. It's hard to believe that we build so much together when we marry someone and then it can all be gone when they decide to walk away. I've been through other challenges in life and was hoping for a period of stability but that won't happen and suddenly 40 years have passed by in my life and it seems a combination of bad luck and risky decisions, like marrying a man from the Middle East, led me to this point. I just hope I'll find a way to give my daughter a life that will still allow her to have a full range of opportunities in her future. I hope that coming from a broken home without siblings or extended family and a mom who won't always be present due to having to work won't prevent her from being able to find her own good husband and career, but I know it'll be much harder for her. It seems I have to find a way to avoid working full-time until I know that she's ok, and even then I won't be able to have a full career like before.
A lot of what I write feels like I'm just complaining but I'm really struggling to accept this is my new life. How can everything just be gone? If I'd be fortunate enough to build a new life with a new husband who can fill in the gaps for my daughter and restore stability in our lives I see that as much better than struggling as a single mom. I guess that's what I hope for. There are probably many here who will disagree and say you have to be happy alone before you can be happy with someone else but I don't agree. In my experience, especially in villages in developing countries, the happiest people are those who live in close-knit communities with strong families that support each other. This notion that we have to make it alone, and be happy alone, and be alone before we can make someone else happy is something I reject. I married into a different culture because there were things about that culture I felt were better than our culture. Some are worse too, but I wanted to be part of a culture that's less individualistic and more focused on family. Too bad I married into that culture for those reasons and got left behind! My husband came here and became American and is now embracing his freedom whereas I'm back to square one.
Anyway my impression is that most people probably move on with greater ease or faster than I am. I do hope to report back here someday with something positive that I've learned or done to get through this. I hope this resentment won't last forever. More than anything I miss I my husband but hope to find a new husband someday who may not be perfect but at least won't walk away.
A lot of what I write feels like I'm just complaining but I'm really struggling to accept this is my new life. How can everything just be gone? If I'd be fortunate enough to build a new life with a new husband who can fill in the gaps for my daughter and restore stability in our lives I see that as much better than struggling as a single mom.
Oh Nicole. I've been at this for 10 year and I want to share some of what I have learned with you.
You do not need another man to restore stability in your lives. It seems like a huge undertaking, I am sure, but you can actually solely provide that stability for your daughter and yourself. I did. I am 10 years in and not remarried. I have been the one to provide stability and comfort for my daughter. I sure do long for a partner for MY needs as a woman, yes, but my daughter actually doesn't need me to have a partner. I have dated, she has really liked those 2 guys she has met and the time she has spent with them, but she doesn't need it for happiness. I have actually need able to provide it to her.
And the sterotype of a "struggling single mom" well, that's one I reject. We all struggle, single, mom, dad, married, it doesn't matter. We all face our struggles. Life does NOT have to be a struggle because we are a single parent. Maybe a little more difficult, but not always a struggle. Just like any other parent.
I do not believe you have to make someone else happy. You have to be able to make it on your own to make yourself happy. We are actually responsible for our own happiness and that is not a cultural thing, that is a human thing. And I say this as a human who is struggling right now with her singlehood. But at the end of the day, it's me who makes the best life for myself and someone else is a great, great addition. An addition I miss in my life.
FYI, my daughter is a 10 year old pre-teen, excited to attend school, an honor role student, with friends, who enjoys different activities, is in an afterschool community service program, and has many people who love her and she loves many people. I do not see our divorce preventing her from becoming anyone she wants to be as long as she embraces her "different" life and knows it is what she makes of it, rather than being defined by her circumstances. She wants to be a teacher or a physical therapist. She prefers a career before she finds a husband and hopes to have 2 kids one day. Her dreams and hopes are similar to those of a child in an intact family. ANd there is no reason why she is at a disadvantage at achieving her dreams.
You will be the one your daughter looks to for strength and guidance and to see that nothing should stand in the way of her goals.
A lot of what I write feels like I'm just complaining but I'm really struggling to accept this is my new life. How can everything just be gone?
If you feel it and want to vent or discuss, write away… sometimes it helps to hear someone else say they feel/felt that way too. I know for me personally, I owned my own home since I moved out of my parents, I had never rented in my life. When I met my wife, I lived in a house that I had completely restored top to bottom, I had a car that was going to paid off in a little over a year, and I only had a couple thousand dollars in debt. I was in my 30’s, doing well towards building a nice life for myself. When I divorced, we had to sell the family home, I had a newer vehicle with 4 yrs of payments left, and all the profit that I made on the sell of the house was used to pay off my half of the debt, and I only had a couple of thousand left over. Early in my M I wanted to have children, after trying for over a year, found out my W could not have any more.
Moral of the story, I went into my M in a pretty good financial position (she came with nothing but debt), I gave up my opportunity to have children so I could be with her, and when she walked away I was left with no assets (but no debt other than my truck), no biological children, and stuck with renting (I’m about to move for the third time in a year and a half.
But all of that is ok, because I see a light at the end of the tunnel. Once I decide where I want to settle I will purchase another house to settle into, I have a stepson who means the world to me, and I am happier than I was during the last 3 or 4 years of my M.
There are probably many here who will disagree and say you have to be happy alone before you can be happy with someone else but I don't agree. In my experience, especially in villages in developing countries, the happiest people are those who live in close-knit communities with strong families that support each other. This notion that we have to make it alone, and be happy alone, and be alone before we can make someone else happy is something I reject. I married into a different culture because there were things about that culture I felt were better than our culture. Some are worse too, but I wanted to be part of a culture that's less individualistic and more focused on family. Too bad I married into that culture for those reasons and got left behind! My husband came here and became American and is now embracing his freedom whereas I'm back to square one.
This is an interesting comment, and one that I never thought much about, but Zues126 touched on this recently and I’m going to quote his post here (I hope he doesn’t mind), where he touches on his thoughts about what you just said. It’s an interesting train of thought, and basically makes me wonder if you took those villagers that are so happy and put them in another environment, would their contentment remain? For me, I think the importance of being happy with yourself simply minimizes your co-dependency, as well as allows for you to share your happiness with the other person, which is a very attractive quality.
To set up my new train of thought I'll recap a few of my world views that form the basis. It seems to me for most of human history we didn't have choices about what our lives would look like, we were born into a certain life and that's the life we had to live. People had to find ways to adapt to their environment, instead of adapting their environment to them. It is this hardship that forced us to develop traditions and religions, to find meaning in our suffering and make the best of what we had. Marriage in particular was a dominant model because it was a requirement for survival throughout these oppressive times.
After WWII in the 1950s we started to accumulate a surplus of economic resources, technology was developing, and for the first time people weren't forced to follow the old rules for survival. The result was inevitably, the 60s counter culture questioning all of the old beliefs and traditions. It was like a rock long disturbed was uprooted and suddenly the beetles and insects started scampering every direction.
Some of this was good. Think about barbaric traditions such as sacrificing virgins to imaginary deities so the corn crop would come in. This is a tradition that humanity can say, 'hey guys, we've learned a little bit, we don't need to keep doing this anymore'. On the other hand there are many traditions that embody the collective wisdom of thousands of generations we've discovered on how we can best exist together.
One big challenge is how we can tell which is which. And another challenge is that if each of us tries to decide on our own which traditions are positive and which need to go, the result is that we don't have any universal set of values and therefor chaos ensues, like an orchestra where everyone is trying to play their own favorite song. Yes it's freedom, but something is lost in that we aren't harmonious. And as we interpret for ourselves our morality it is too easy to modify our beliefs to match our personal desires.
I've been looking at this with a sense of loss. A loss of the institution of marriage. A loss of the model of sacrifice, servitude, lives dedicated to finding purpose in our suffering. And I used to harbor much more resentment towards XW and other WAS's who I felt had made the choice to go down a road of pursuing selfish worldly desires that was creating a pattern that would bring tremendous pain upon ourselves and destroy much of what we built over many lifetimes.
My friend feels differently. He feels that we were chained down by circumstance and that we are now free to choose our own paths. He views this as a positive. He thinks that marriage and personal sacrifice are outdated traditions that we no longer need. Like we were chained up for so long we came up with traditions on how to live while being chained, and now we're not chained so it would be foolish to stay in our cells when the door isn't locked anymore just because that's what we've always done. I find this very interesting.
There are a few things we agree on. Right or wrong, we both think this is what is happening. We also think that it was and is inevitable. Human nature is human nature. If you leave kids to themselves they'll eat cookies and watch youtube. And similarly the members of our society aren't going to remain in miserable unfulfilling marriages and sacrifice their own personal happiness when they aren't forced to by circumstance. This is clear as even the anti-divorce forum members loath the idea of remaining in an unfulfilling marriage and can easily build cases in which abuse/addiction could justify divorce. We can talk about how we don't like it, but when it's our life that's miserable and we're free to define our own morality and society agrees it's hard for us to be the ones to remain in a difficult situation perpetually because of traditions that no one else is honoring.
And since I feel this is inevitable, I have let go of much of my resentment. I no longer look at my XW or other WASs as horrible people that made selfish choices that destroyed my family and are eroding the society we have built over millennia and dooming our children. Instead I almost feel they didn't have a choice, that we are all sinners and flawed humans and are being swept away in an irresistible current. Sure, a few people can be the exception and decide individually to fight the current, but the majority are going to be pulled downstream. I am no exception to that as proven by the fact I am debating these things for myself instead of following faithfully the teachings of the a priest or a higher power. While I still recognize each person gets to make their own choices, I am finding much more compassion for those being left to navigate their own way while the majority is racing down this path.
Another area I agree on with my friend is that we don't understand partnering up with another person at this time. He doesn't because he doesn't want to make the personal sacrifice, and would rather be free to pursue his own desires in life. I don't because I think that whoever I partnered with would think like he does and ultimately divorce me when they decided that the marriage was no longer working for them. And, as I've mentioned, I have a hard enough time making the sacrifice myself as while I don't always like it, I am human too. So to make a huge sacrifice that would test my dedication so I can endure a number of painful years until my spouse labels me as abusive and leaves to pursue their own happiness again, a result which looks like a foregone conclusion, doesn't seem like a bargain to me.
Maybe this will change at some point and I'll embrace the new ways of serial monogamy as a happy medium and content myself with 3-10 year stints of companionship that expires when it's no longer mutually beneficial. Maybe this will even be a sign of growth for me, a form of embracing what is available to me instead of rejecting it because it isn't everything I wanted. I'm not sure. But I'm not there at this point, that's for sure.
Much of this is churning over old ground, but as time passes and I hear other peoples' input my views gradually evolve. It's too bad we each have to try to go through this and find our own beliefs and we have lost the harmony and much wisdom of the ages, but it does seem inevitable and has carried many benefits in terms of reduction of suffering through oppression. While some will always succumb to chasing worldly pleasures, we still have the choice to appreciate what we have and find meaning in our suffering and purpose in our servitude. I, being human, have a nice mix of both in my life.
Anyway my impression is that most people probably move on with greater ease or faster than I am. I do hope to report back here someday with something positive that I've learned or done to get through this. I hope this resentment won't last forever. More than anything I miss I my husband but hope to find a new husband someday who may not be perfect but at least won't walk away.
Don’t judge your progression against anyone else’s, because everyone grieves in their own way. One of the most popular questions when first appearing on the forum is “How long does this take”, heck, I even pushed for an answer for 1 to 2 pages of my first thread, but the answer is there is no way to tell. I know that a year in I thought I was doing great, another 6 months past that I no longer think I was doing as well as I thought back then and am doing so much better now, so who knows what the future is going to bring me. But I do know that I am happy, I am having fun, but will I be more so in the future?? Only time will tell.
Nicole... Do not compare yourself to others. I am in a divorce class now, and there are people there that are still stuck in the past,15 years after their D. You're light years ahead of a lot of people. You are moving forward and looking out for your little girl. Yes, this is a crap situation for you. No way around it. Just like everything else, you have to make the most of it.
Don't worry about your bad days, just live them out. They come and go. You will recover from this heartbreak. I wish I could stop dreaming about my W but some things we can't control. Focus on what you can change. Nicole, you were over in the sandbox! You got through that! You'll get through this battlefield too!!!
I'm sorry you don't have a lot of immediate support where you are. Neither do I for the most part. I think it's important for you to keep posting. We are all here to help each other. I know I'd be seriously messed up now if it wasn't for these forums.
Earlier you said DB does not work. Well, maybe not towards recon in every sitch. That's true. But DB is as much about recovering YOURSELF and making your life the best it can be despite the bullsht. I have started to love myself again through DB. I now look at my WW from the perspective of pity and pure "WTF"... What kind of idiot would leave ME? Just like why the hell would someone leave YOU!?!?
Nicole, you are stronger than you think and you don't need a husband to be a mother. Your daughter is going to be great. She will be fine without him around every day... Maybe even better without him! Who the hell says you should have aborted his own daughter?!?????! Remember that!!!!
Ginger, your words helped a lot. Thanks for sharing your experience. I trust what you're saying because you're further along than I am. It's so comforting to hear your daughter is ok. It sounds like she's doing great. This gives me hope for my daughter. Thanks again so much.
Coconut, it sounds like you also lost everything and had to start over completely. It's encouraging to hear your say you're feeling happy. I don't even remember that feeling! Even if I try to remember something happy it's overshadowed by my current situation which isn't happy and then I feel more upset. Regarding Zeus126's comment, yes, that's another way of saying what I was trying to say. People in developing countries are living as we did prior to the 1950's. It's like going back in time. They both need each other to survive and their values are less individual-focused and more community-focused. It appeals to me in particular because I've been financially self-sufficient since age 18. I paid for my own college and graduate school, worked extra jobs to have enough money to travel and study abroad, and then I supported my husband financially for six years until he got a paid residency program. I also lived alone, traveled around the world alone, and did everything alone. I was independent but I didn't find happiness in that. To me, the happiest time of my life was the first six years with my husband until we started having problems. Life is so much better with a partner. Just being able to share everything with someone you love is amazing. Now I have my daughter and we do everything together, but I miss my husband. I'm not sure I can be convinced that being happy alone is something I want to aim for. I can survive alone, but to me happiness is having a partner to love and who loves you in return. I'm trying to view my daughter as my family now. She's young and needs 100% care but I know when she gets older she'll help me too, so I'm thankful we can be our own small family. I just wish to give her more. Anyway, Coconut, yes I
hear you on progress and setbacks. My own progression right now can be measured only in hours. I'm ok for a few hours and then not ok for another few hours.
Joe, it's hard to imagine that I could be ahead of anyone else! I feel like I'm at the bottom! But I still appreciate your encouragement. Yes, I'm moving forward by planning a move to another city and getting ready to find a new job which I hope will help.
Right now every day is a bad day, but I did find one friend in Canada who is getting divorced and she said she'll visit me in April. I'm thankful for that!
I think about Iraq and Afghanistan a lot. You probably don't miss it wherever you were in either place but I do. There was a mission to be fulfilled and I was so focused on that. I wasn't married and didn't have a child back then so I didn't know what I was missing....I just worked all the time and loved it and then met my husband there.
Yes it helps posting on this board although the faceless, anonymous nature of it isn't ideal. I wish they'd allow for a more personal feel to a board where people are in such need for support.
You're right that DB is about helping ourselves too. I don't think any of us turn to it for that purpose, and that's not our goal when we start with it. But it does help us to see that feeling sorry for ourselves won't help.
I'm sure your wife is crazy to leave you. I, on the other hand, could have done better as wife. I am making progress on changing my thought patterns and behaviors that pushed my husband away, like having to be so focused on rules, safety, and hygiene all the time and being too uptight.
Thanks for your encouragement regarding my daughter. She keeps telling me it's better without her father around and that she loves going out with me alone. She doesn't know any better, but I guess she remembers the months before my husband left and knows they were bad. I try with all my strength to do fun stuff with her every day, take her out and make sure we're exercising and doing educational things. Sometimes I still have tears in my eyes and I just tell her I miss her father but I'm happy to have her.
I'll send a subsequent message with another update for everyone.
So, my husband stopped by tonight. He knew I saw a lawyer this morning and asked about it. We talked for ten or fifteen minutes. My husband still insists on a divorce but he's less rushed and angry now. He said things tonight like "you know that 50% of people who get divorced go back to each other right?" He said "I need to get divorced to get a fresh start. I need to feel like I'm making my own choices." He also said when we move to the new city he will visit every one or two weekends (who knows if he will). I asked if we can sometimes have dinner together with our daughter to give her a sense of normalcy. He said "not just dinner together, I will stay with you at the apartment when I come." He said he's not angry at me, that he's talked to other physicians who are divorced and they all say the same things about their wives so he knows everyone makes the same mistakes and has the same behavior (probably referring to wanting to spend time together, asking for more than the husband can give, etc..). He said he'll never get re-married unless it's to me. He said he wants to start fresh.
I have no idea what's going through my husband's mind. I think his true motive for divorce is to have fun with his 26 year old girlfriend, go out, be single, party, and do whatever he wants without anyone being hurt or angry at him. Then after he gets tired of that it seems like he's considering returning someday.
I can't imagine life in a year or two from now. I don't know if my husband would ever return, if I'd ever take him back, if I'd find someone else...for now I have to get divorced. But I do feel relief knowing my husband wants to spend time with my daughter and I. I would be happy for that because it will give us an opportunity to reconcile, for him to see me under better circumstances, and for our daughter to feel that she has parents who can spend time with her together as a family.
I still wish my husband would change his mind but I don't think he will. For a few seconds tonight he had tears in his eyes as I was telling him that we're doing fine alone and our daughter is getting more independent (I'm not really fine although I am handling everything alone).
I guess I should be thankful that my husband supports me in moving back to our old city. He said he'll move there in about a year after he sells the house. I guess a lot will change in the next year. Maybe I should focus more on the next one year and less about the future beyond that time. I keep feeling afraid of the whole future...all the uncertainty and fear of being divorced. I guess a one year time horizon is more beneficial for now.
I really appreciate everyone's support here. Thanks again for listening.
Ginger, Coconut, and Joe - I responded to your messages above the last one above FYI. I had trouble writing one long post so please see the series of new posts above.
Nicole:
I totally get how you miss it over there. It's hard to explain to others that don't know, but when you have a mission you have something to focus towards every day. Something bigger than yourself that affects entire cities, regions, or even countries. Purpose. A lot of people live their lives without any purpose. So now we just have to figure out what our new purpose is, and then set goals to achieve towards that end.
I guess part of these new lives we're building is almost doing what our spouses did to us: start new lives for ourselves. Maybe you can find a way to look at this in that light. Like now what is your mission? What is next for Nicole? What are you going to accomplish next?
I am thinking about going to go back to school after the dust settles from my D. Get the next credential to make my career even better. Move up the ladder, make more, do more, create more. One day at a time.
Because now from this moment forward, there's no reason to NOT make ourselves the best possible versions of us.
Joe, yes, that's exactly right. It's like you read my mind. And now I'm sitting alone in my grief all day with no sense of where I'm headed or where I belong. So you're right it's about figuring out a new purpose in life.
There is one positive thing to report though. I realized all these months since my husband left there's a guy friend in my life who has been encouraging me. I don't know how many times I've texted him when I'm totally broken and he calls right away. He's never gotten tired of hearing me say the same things over and over. He's done some extra special things for my daughter and I lately. I realized here's this guy who's doing everything within his power to make me feel better and all I think about is my husband who walked out the door. I don't know if this guy will ever be more than a friend, but now I really appreciate him. For the first time in six months, one day passed where I wasn't totally in tears or struggling to breath when I realized someone cares so much. I think we all need someone like that if we don't have direct family to help us in these times. Somehow I feel just a little better even though I know the actual divorce process will be difficult.
Nicole, I think you will find more and more people like this in your life. Time and patience. And some effort on your part, too. I've found that everyone I've reached out to has been delighted to help, they just didn't know how.
Hi Everyone,
It's been a few weeks since I posted. My husband has still done nothing to move forward with the divorce which is a relief because I didn't feel mentally strong enough to go through with it immediately. Things have been more peaceful. My husband doesn't seem angry any more and we've been able to briefly talk normally. Last weekend I took my daughter out-of-town and my husband called to see how it's going and said to let him know if we need anything. That might not sound significant, but it's the first time in months that he's expressed even remote concern for my daughter and I. I posted a while back that my husband talked about visiting us when we move and staying with us and we can do things together. He talked about re-marrying in the future and how there's a 50% chance we'll get back together, despite the fact that he's expressed no interest in doing so any time soon. I assume, although have no way to know, that he's still dating the 26 year old nurse with whom he works.
I still don't feel very stable but I have a close friend with whom I talk frequently now and it's the first time I've felt a little better. For months it felt like I'm bothering someone every time I call them, but now one of my friends started to call and I began to feel like someone cares. The only issue is this is a male friend, an old friend who I've known for decades, so sometimes it's confusing wondering about his intentions. As far as I know we're just friends and he either feels sorry for me or feels lonely as well.
I still see a therapist every week and I still need to do a few more health tests, but my health is a little more stable. I still feel like I'm probably clinically depressed. I'm trying to exercise with my daughter and do as much as possible to give her a normal enriching life. We're supposed to move in April and I hope to start working quickly.
So those are my updates. I guess things could deteriorate at any time but I'm trying to survive the uncertainty and accept that I'll be alone for possibly a long time. I'll turn 40 in April and this is the complete opposite of how my life was a year ago. A year ago my husband was supporting me in the business I started, we were building a house, and we were living a relatively normal life. I guess we can't take anything for granted. I just wish I had foreseen what would happen and acted differently to be the best wife I could be, and to be more forgiving of my husband's previous affair. If that had happened the momentum may have gone in a more positive direction.
I will try to respond more to other posts soon....there are so many new members that I don't recognize anyone and I need to read the new posts from the beginning. I hope soon!
I just wish I had foreseen what would happen and acted differently to be the best wife I could be, and to be more forgiving of my husband's previous affair. If that had happened the momentum may have gone in a more positive direction.
Stop beating yourself up. There's nothing about your H's despicable behavior that leads me to think "if only" you had behaved differently it all would have worked out. Don't forget this is a man who said he wished his daughter hadn't been born!
Let go of him and go out and make a fabulous new life for yourself and your daughter. You both deserve better.
KML, I understand what you're saying. I've observed many friends in the past six months and see how they're not perfect but their husbands still love them and are loyal to them. I still don't see the 'fabulous' part of the new life considering I didn't want this, but I'll try to survive and possibly someday I'll know what fabulous feels like. Thanks so much for your support.
Nicole, I'm glad you're in a better place mentally and emotionally. Soon you will be in a better place physically. You have a lot to look forward to. You are doing the right things, and making sure your daughter knows you love her. Thank you for the update. I've wondered how you are doing.
I think we've all said things in the heat of the moment that we wish we could take back. From what I recall, when he said he wished your daughter had never been born, passions weren't inflamed; he coldly and sincerely said so. I'd really rethink ever wanting to get back together.
I'm not sure it matters what the intentions of your friend are at this point. If he is sincerely just a friend, then good for you! you've found a friend when you need one. If he's looking for something more, then good for you! you may not be as alone in the future as you once thought.
Please do keep us informed.
Nicole, I'm glad you're in a better place mentally and emotionally. Soon you will be in a better place physically. You have a lot to look forward to. You are doing the right things, and making sure your daughter knows you love her. Thank you for the update. I've wondered how you are doing.
I think we've all said things in the heat of the moment that we wish we could take back. From what I recall, when he said he wished your daughter had never been born, passions weren't inflamed; he coldly and sincerely said so. I'd really rethink ever wanting to get back together.
I'm not sure it matters what the intentions of your friend are at this point. If he is sincerely just a friend, then good for you! you've found a friend when you need one. If he's looking for something more, then good for you! you may not be as alone in the future as you once thought.
Please do keep us informed.
Just because it wasn't a moment of heated passion that he said that doesn't mean he meant it. It could have been just said in order to hurt Nicole. I don't know the man, maybe he does really feel that way. But I've said things I didn't really mean when I was calm, just to get a rise out of the other person. Doesn't make it right.
I'm sorry but no one who says they wish their child wasn't born is a good person, I don't care WHAT the circumstances are. No good parent says those things under any circumstances, and the rest of his negligent parenting supports that.
As for fabulous life Nicole - it'll come when you let go and embrace change. You need to make a vision board - get poster board, and make a collage on it of all your wildest dreams. Put it where you see it every day. You'll be shocked in a few years to see how much has come true.
My husband still insists on a divorce but he's less rushed and angry now. He said things tonight like "you know that 50% of people who get divorced go back to each other right?" He said "I need to get divorced to get a fresh start. I need to feel like I'm making my own choices." He also said when we move
Nicole, I really admire how you get along. The LBS has to both move on and detach and !!! deal with the ambivalence of the leaving spouse !!! Frankly speaking all these make up a huge challenge. Why do some leaving spouses try to soften the sitch with false hopes instead of with some kind of true sympathy?
My husband still insists on a divorce but he's less rushed and angry now. He said things tonight like "you know that 50% of people who get divorced go back to each other right?" He said "I need to get divorced to get a fresh start. I need to feel like I'm making my own choices." He also said when we move
Nicole, I really admire how you get along. The LBS has to both move on and detach and !!! deal with the ambivalence of the leaving spouse !!! Frankly speaking all these make up a huge challenge. Why do some leaving spouses try to soften the sitch with false hopes instead of with some kind of true sympathy?
My XW used to tell me similar things. "Maybe we'll get back together after the D. I have two friends who re-united with their exes." I think it's just something they say to try to get us to chill out and play along.
My husband didn't mean it but it was still unacceptable of course. I'd rather not remember it again or hear about it because it just makes me feel worse all over again.
I'm not sure if my husband is trying to soften the situation or get me to play along when he talks about re-marrying in the future. My interpretation is that he wants to believe I'll still be here waiting for him in case he ever decides to return, not to make it easier for me but to make himself feel better about what he's doing. It's extremely difficult knowing he's dating someone else but I do want to be friends with him, do activities together with him and our daughter, and anything else we can manage to do as a family up until one of us gets engaged or re-marries someone else.
I'm still hopeful that I can move up North before we get divorced to feel stronger and have more support. Right now that would be the best thing for me, to delay the divorce if possible until I move. I hope my husband will not mention it. It seems he may have financial reasons for delaying it which is fine with me as long as he's providing the financial support we need in the interim.
Hi Everyone, I don't even know what kind of update to offer about my situation lately. For a few weeks, since I last posted, my husband was making a bit more effort to see our daughter. He came several times per week, still only for 15 or 20 minutes, but several times instead of one or none. Then one day he took her to a movie. It was a big shock. He's never done anything like that before. Our daughter said she had fun.
My husband hasn't done anything to file for divorce. Then one day he stopped by to see our daughter and she bumped into a door that was open. Suddenly he got mad at me and said it was my fault the door was open and I should keep it closed. I said "Ok, sorry, I'll keep it closed." His response was "You're an adult, not a five year old child." This was a really rude and abusive type of response. It's not something my normal husband would ever say. Then he came to the living room and told me not to leave my laptop on sofa because our daughter could bump into that too. He looked at me and said "I don't think we'll ever be together in the future. I just want this divorce to go smoothly."
I was really upset about that after I thought we'd made progress towards talking and acting normally together in front of our daughter. I'm moving in a few weeks so last week I asked my husband when I can come to get the rest of my stuff, and our daughter's stuff, from 'his' house. He said I'm not allowed to come. He started shouting at me that he gave me ten chances previously and I never came so now I lost my chance (which isn't true). I told him he signed and agreed in our separation agreement that I could come one last time to get my stuff. He said "fine, you can come tonight and that's your last chance." I told him our daughter would be going to bed in 30 minutes and that wouldn't make sense to keep her awake. I asked why we can't come another time? Then he said he doesn't want our daughter to see the house. He was so angry and rude and as the tears filled my eyes our poor daughter looked so sad and confused. Since that night I haven't said anything about going to the house but I know I have to bring it up again. I'm a legal owner of the house so he can't block me from getting my stuff. I have the key to the house, but unless there's no other choice I don't want to go there without him knowing because he'd find out and this would lead to a bigger fight.
Last week I needed my husband to drive me to a medical procedure in another city and watch our daughter while it was going on. I have no one else to do it and couldn't drive myself. He had already previously agreed several weeks ago to drive me. We went and we didn't really talk much except my husband drives like he's back in his home country and at one point did something crazy and I said "watch out!" He said "I don't miss that." Nevertheless, I appreciate that he drove me and watched our daughter for those two hours.
Then two days later last week my husband called to say he was going to San Francisco for a conference and he'll be back on Sunday. He didn't come to say goodbye to our daughter and then we didn't hear from him for a day or two. I had no idea if it was a real conference or a romantic getaway with his girlfriend. He did call a few times on Saturday to say hi to our daughter though, and yesterday he called to say he was at a chocolate shop buying her chocolate. He then asked how I was doing after my procedure and I said I was great. He said he's happy because he didn't think I'd go through with it. Then we talked normally for a minute or two and I said I had to go. Just for a brief minute or two things seemed normal again.
Last night I had to take my friend to the emergency room where my husband works and when I got back my husband asked how my friend was and I said she was ok. I texted my husband that I respect his career and how stressful and difficult it is. He responded and said thanks.
In three weeks my daughter and I will be over 1,000 miles away, starting our life over again. I don't know how this will affect my husband or our situation. I don't know the status of his relationship with his girlfriend. She deleted her facebook and Instagram accounts (or made them private) so I can't see what's happening there. Perhaps if they were visible and I saw pictures of San Francisco from this weekend I'd know they are still going strong, but I have no way to know. Not that it matters....but I do believe if they break up my husband may get more of a reality check.
I'm still totally lost. I have no idea what kind of job I'll find and I have no financial security. I know I have to move to move on with my life and get out of this terrible apartment we're in just ten minutes from the beautiful mansion where my husband lives. But I just don't know when my husband will pursue the divorce or what he's thinking. There's still a small part of me that wishes he'd change his mind. I still wake up in shock most mornings when I open my eyes and realize this is still happening. There are many, many moments when I just can't believe everything is gone. I'm trying to do everything I can for my daughter to give her a normal life but I'm so sad for her that she's so innocent and her father did this to her. I'm still trying to improve myself in any way possible but it's hard to be a completely different person over night.
I wish I had more knowledge of what's likely to happen once we move. I wish I could understand my husband's recent behavior, shifting between angry and rude to cordial and nice. If anyone has any thoughts I'd love to hear them. Thanks again.
Nicole, I really hope your recovery from your procedure goes smoothly.
You husband's a dick. The sooner you're rid of him, the better off you will be. He spends 15 or 20 minutes with your daughter? And takes her to a movie? So f'ing what? That's not the behavior of a decent parent. He spends a few minutes talking normally to you in between taking his GF to San Fran? so f'ing what? C'mon girl, you don't have to put up with that!
For me, an eye opening moment, and one that changed my feelings for W, was when I realized just how much I made excuses for her inconsiderate, selfish behavior towards me. Talk about helping me detach! And you do that. A LOT. He got angry with you for leaving a door open?!? In YOUR house?!? And you apologized to him?!? You recognize it's abusive and and rude, and you apologized! And then he told you to keep YOUR laptop off YOUR sofa?!? Come on!
Go get your stuff out of YOUR house, at a time that is convenient to YOU. Don't ask him permission. Tell him. It's your house, too. If he doesn't like it, tough.
It's easy for me to sit here behind a keyboard, and tell you that you need to not accept being disrespected. You are not in his country where women are treated like second class possessions. I don't want to sound harsh, but here it is.... you LET him walk all over you. Would you respect someone that let you do that to them? Would you want to stay married to someone that let you do that to them?
You are going to do so well once you get away from this a$$hat. I wish you could see it.
Jim,
Yes, I'm aware that the current version of my husband isn't someone that's good for my daughter and I. I may not struggle so much if he didn't turn into a totally different person these past few years. The guy I married was so polite, so kind, so engaged for nearly seven years. We did everything together. It's so hard to believe someone can change like this. I guess people here understand it. I'm moving far away in any case and I hope to think the way you do. It's still just very painful.
Jim,
Yes, I'm aware that the current version of my husband isn't someone that's good for my daughter and I. I may not struggle so much if he didn't turn into a totally different person these past few years. The guy I married was so polite, so kind, so engaged for nearly seven years. We did everything together.
It's so hard to believe someone can change like this. I guess people here understand it. I'm moving far away in any case and I hope to think the way you do. It's still just very painful.
It's very very painful. And one of the things we do that makes us crazy is that we project our values onto our former spouses, and when they do something WE would never do, we don't get it. We are baffled.
We keep assuming "they are confused" or in an "MLC", but regardless of cause, they do NOT share our values, not anymore.
Still, We often stay with someone based on what we think their
potential as a spouse is, on who they used to be, (or who we thought they were), and not on who they are now.
There's also such a thing as "sunk cost" and you may want to do a bit of reading on that. Or see another site about spouses who do this. It's like if we played poker and had put a lot of our chips on the table and when we see that we really don't have a good hand, we do NOT want to fold and cut our losses. We keep thinking the next hand will be better and we won't have to leave so much of our investment (time, energy, love...loyalty, building a family) on the table.
But it's as if the house always win and the game is rigged b/c we are not playing the same poker game as our spouses are. They apply different rules to themselves.
I'm so sorry but seems you don't have much to work with, Nicole. The "upside" to this is that he's not acting very kind to you, in fact he's got the textbook MEAN JERK behavior and it's been this way i "these past few years", so when you can take a step back you may be able to see that this is about HIM. Depersonalize as best you can.
He's lashing out b/c he's trying to move forward in his new life. You are an obstacle and he for sure struggles with being an absentee dad, but thinks that "later" he will make it up to her.
And the thing is,
YOU cannot make him a good father, and you cannot make him care more.
(Please read this^^^ again. My lawyer and my T had to tell me this 50 times the past year before I let it sink in.)
Only when he's "Free" will he really be able to see what's going on, and that is NOT when the OW and he break up, if that is ever happens.
It's when he sees you moving on. Acting as if.
Nicole
I suggest you see a L asap b/c the divorce will be the most important financial transaction of your life.
And there's a chance he will want to reconcile someday. To ME, most likely that could only happen if he really believes he's losing you and your daughter. NOT by you putting up with his irrational rude behavior that you should NOT put up with.
You CAN calmly say "don't talk to me like that. I deserve better and so does she." Then leave the room and do NOT expect an apology or wait for his response. Hang up if he does that on the phone.
Do NOT expect him to be kind or fair in the divorce. With the way you describe his present behavior, it's text book MEAN and he will be that way the second you disagree with his wishes for the divorce.
You need an aggressive lawyer. Do NOT wait for your h to take the initiative in the divorce b/c that will be a blizzard attack, and please get a hold of financial information. Do Not Trust him.
I cannot tell you how SHOCKED I was when my h, just after I was released from the hospital with a life altering sudden illness, left AND took ALL the money in the joint accounts leaving me with $700 to my name. I didn't know anyone in the area b/c we had just moved there for his job, (job number 20??) and he went off to Alaska for his NEW great job...
I spun around for awhile due in part to my illness but also to my "refusal" to see the truth.
Get a hold of what the assets are, account numbers and whatever else a lawyer tells you.
I would see the L before you leave the state. SERIOUSLY. Otherwise you have to live in the new state for awhile before you can file there.
Your h refusing to let you in YOUR home to get YOUR property is a level of bullying that borders on crazy.
I filed in CA and then moved east b/c CA was where we had lived for 16 years and I didn't know the laws of the state I was moving to.
Please, protect yourself AND your d, more....a lot more.
And know that this gets better. Truly. But get your armor and helmet on b/c this guy is going to lob some missiles at you.
Steel yourself. And see if there is a DivorceCare group nearby. It's incredibly helpful to meet people in your shoes.
Hang in there
((( )))
25yrsmlc, Thanks for taking the time to share all that. Your timeline looks crazy. It can't believe this went on for so many years for you. I really want to read your thread more.
The sunk cost scenario does sound like what's going on. It's helpful to think of the situation that way.
Yes I will try to depersonalize. I've started doing that a little. When my husband saw a psychologist alone last summer and then I went to the same psychologist afterwards, I said to the psychologist "I guess he said a lot of bad things about me." The psychologist said "no, he actually said a lot of good things. He blames himself completely and knows he's being unfair to you." So yeah, I did a lot of things wrong and I'm working hard on changing those things about myself, but apparently that's not why my husband left.
I can see that I'm an obstacle in my husband's life at this point. His mean jerk behavior probably is due to that. He also seems to be out-of-control in general. He's always had mood swings but this new abusive twist is a new tactic.
I did identify a lawyer here where we live and I went through a consultation with her. Her opinion is that my husband has no idea what he's getting himself into and he's in for a rude awakening. I have a sense that my husband figured that out because he hasn't filed for divorce yet.
You know I have this lawyer here who is ready to be paid a retainer fee but I've already been planning to move in April for many months. I know even if I file, the divorce won't be completed before I move. I don't want to delay the move because I think I'll be stronger and better able to cope in my old city where I have friends and colleagues and job opportunities.
There are many reasons to file for divorce now, before I move, but I have a strong preference to be more prepared by waiting. My husband may file before I leave, which wouldn't surprise me, but I'm curious to see how he feels once we're gone, living a great life up North while he's here alone with his naïve girlfriend who knows nothing about his culture. I wonder if the freedom is going to be so great then? His girlfriend is a mainstream American and all her facebook photos are of her wearing a bikini on the beach holding a beer bottle or wearing some skimpy outfit in a club with a shot in her hand. I question whether someone like that will appreciate all my husband's 'tricks' once she really gets to know him.
It's not that I'm hoping my husband will show up soon after we move hoping to reconcile because there's no sign that will happen, especially not so fast, but I know in my current state I'm the weak one and my husband has the upper hand. I just wish to turn the tables and face divorce after we move when my husband will be the one 'left behind.' Feel free to tell me this is wrong but as I mentioned, I don't think the divorce will be completed by early April even if either of us do file now, so it will already have to be completed between two states.
25yearsmlc, how could your husband leave you with only $700? Did he lose his mind? Didn't he feel guilty about leaving and want to help you out a little?
My husband is acting crazy but he's still paying all our bills and cooperating financially. If he tries to stop paying the bills I'll probably show up at his doorstep with our daughter and a suitcase saying we're moving back in because we have nowhere else to go. I'm joking but I'm willing to take the financial risks just a little longer in exchange for a better mental state up until the day my husband stops paying.
I guess I'm holding on to the hope that life will get better in a few weeks after my daughter and I move. At that point I'll consult with a new lawyer up there to see what difference there may be in filing from there.
I'll try using the 'don't talk to me like that' approach if my husband is rude and mean again.
He stopped by tonight and was acting normal again. He brought a box of chocolate for our daughter and conversed with me. As he was leaving he stopped on the stair case and turned around and came back up and said he wants to fly up to our city on the day when we move-in to our new place to help us and make sure everything is ok for us. I told him he doesn't need to do that because we'll be fine and I already have a visitor that weekend. He said "no, I need to come and check everything and make sure it's ok."
Tomorrow I'm going to ask my husband not to come. He may still come, but I want him to see that we don't need him there. I really do want the move to be a turning point.
Again perhaps I'm wrong about waiting on the divorce but everything in the divorce should work in my favor financially which will make my husband into the loser. The stronger I can be to make that happen, and to show him the consequences of his actions, I think the stronger the chance his happy carefree life that he's living at the moment will come to an end.
I don't want my husband to suffer. I don't want to be unfair to him either. But I do hope to change the momentum and move on for real.
Will my husband want to reconcile later on, in a few years when he's burned through ten or twenty trashy women and realizes freedom isn't without consequences? I'd be so happy if he does. I don't know if we could have a new relationship or not, but I do wish for that day when I'm no longer just a piece of trash being thrown away.
I'm exhausted and probably not making much sense anymore, but thanks 25yrsmlc. I want to read your thread more to learn more about what happened to you. I'll follow-up more there.
Then one day he stopped by to see our daughter and she bumped into a door that was open. Suddenly he got mad at me and said it was my fault the door was open and I should keep it closed. I said "Ok, sorry, I'll keep it closed." His response was "You're an adult, not a five year old child." This was a really rude and abusive type of response. It's not something my normal husband would ever say. Then he came to the living room and told me not to leave my laptop on sofa because our daughter could bump into that too. He looked at me and said "I don't think we'll ever be together in the future. I just want this divorce to go smoothly."
This, Nicole, is where you need to really need to toughen up and respect yourself. This man has no business talking to you like that especially when he is not raising his own child. This is not where you apologize. This is where you say "I will not be spoken to that way" and leave the room when he does.
I want to find a kind gentle way to say this, and it may not come out that way, but what I am saying is all in good intention.
You cannot show that you are weak and scared. You are appearing weak and scared to him. Not only is that unattractive, it is not what you want to show your D. I think he has made you feel somewhat beneath him and inadequate for so long you are beginning to act like he views you. He is a physician, not a God who deserved to be bowed down to. I am nurse and I have worked with some who have that complex, but most are very down to earth and treat everyone with respect. I have physician friends. Yes, it is a very demanding career, and many careers are demanding, but everyone's effort and time should be respected.
Now go get your stuff when it is convienient for you, who cares how angry it makes him. That house and stuff is just as much yours and it is his.
I know it hurts. But the reality right now of who this man is right now is what you have to work with. You can do it.
Thanks Ginger. You said it in a good way. It's not so much about my husband being a physician, because up until recently he was only an aspiring one, but about trying to learn how to communicate with him. It seems I've failed both before and after he left. I was overly defensive previously and would attack my husband when he would try to correct me on something. That was my own flaw, so I'm trying to be more humble, but now I failed again and went in the opposite direction by being too weak. It's hard to get the dynamic right. I'm just not good at it. I'll keep trying.
I admire you being a nurse. It's not an easy career. Mine is rigorous in a different way but I'll be honest in saying that being a single mom is more difficult than any career challenge I've ever faced.
Thanks again for your input.
I'm going to tell you a little about my R with my exH and it may or may not resonate with you. My ex was mean, never really kind and very difficult. But I glossed over it and somehow managed to convince myself he was great. During our M, I graduated nursing school, he changed careers, ect. We decided to try to have a child and we found out had a major fertility issue which required surgery for him, and IVF for me. It worked, but my pregnancy was high risk due the STD he had given me back when we first began dating. I worked night shift in the ICU. I had hoped he would finally become the supportive husband I needed and I didn't have to carry the marriage alone anymore. Well, I was wrong. Everything was still about him. I went from being a great obiedient wife to becoming defensive. I was warding off the attacks before they even came. I knew what to expect, my eyes were open to it, and I shut him down before he could attack. That's when he found someone else. Yeah, I own my part for becoming defensive. But I do not own him straying. He ran when the going got tough and things weren't exactly as he wanted it anymore. He now has a wife (his affair partner) he is going on 7 years with and she is as abusive to her as he is to me and disrspects out D10 too. His OWW takes it. I know all of this as fact from my D. I wouldn't want to trade places with her in a million years.
This may or may not be true to your sitch. But was your H really this kind, gentle human being and one day a switch flipped? Or did you manage to talk yourself into a little, like I did?
You have to stop taking responsibility for his choices. These are not your failures. Perhaps you have mistakes in communication as a couple, but you do not own these "failures"
And thank you. Being a nurse is a demanding job, emotionally and physicaly. But guess what. Going to work was my getaway sometimes! I was both a SAHM and a full-time worker in a sense. I worked nights, and raised our D alone during the day. 2 days a week I had daycare so I could sleep after a shift. I admit, going to work was a vacation sometimes. So, please give yourself credit, because single mommin' full time, is freaking HARD! What you do is nothing short of amazing. You H does not respect that. I could guarantee going to work is much more appealing to him then raising his child for more than a few hours a week.
Did I mention my h is also a physician? Yes, he is. It was a career change he made when our son was 8 WEEKS old and I was still in law school.
They get adulation at work that no one woman can ever, humanly, match. There is a danger to that at work and how it seeps into the private life.
If they have no serious faith and moral compass to which they adhere, it's a recipe for marriage to a narcissist.
Gosh it's incredibly cliched to see a doctor in a "Subsequent" marriage b/c the adoration factor at home (like love, loyalty, AND taking out the garbage) means to them, not enough "gratitude expressed!!" for anything they did at home. I recall h banging drawers closed if he put the silverware away, as if he resented doing the smallest of tasks AND OR awaiting the "thanks for ALL the help!" comment. Yet I cannot ever recall him thanking me for raising our children, or giving up a career option, or much. He had trouble saying thank you AT HOME or to family. And he never said "sorry" for missing an event or living away or over working.
No wife, no one person can possibly express enough affirmation on a daily basis, for those who need constant ego strokes as some do. It would be a very rare doctor I'd marry now.
When you see a professional man in a position of success, Even if they are NOW kind and generous, (or seem to be), it would be hard to know that another woman got them to where they are now, a woman they were content to discard, children they no longer see much of, or whom they shower with gifts but not time...
Partners at law firms can be the same way. That's why people saying they want to "meet a rich doctor" really pushes my buttons. The surgeon for my leg (who will NOT be my surgeon now) told me point blank that his "new" wife is divorcing him and "trying to take all" HIS money. (SO ironic he'd tell ME this).
I asked about his kids, who are grown up now. He told me that his first wife, "moved them to New Jersey so he couldn't see them". Meaning, 1) he still has no relationship with GROWN children, and 2) New Jersey is a 4 hour drive from him.
How on earth can he claim that his relationships with his kids is STILL his ex wife's fault?
Because at work no one challenges him and he can still get dates.
He has now failed at least 2 former wives. He has zero insight into this. He has lousy r's with his FOUR GROWN kids, and
AT WORK - he is THE BOSS. Mostly surrounded by women, he gets profusely thanked, politely asked questions, very well paid, does not share more than legally required but due to his "wearing down his first wife in the divorce" (which he told me like it was an achievement!)
he has his answers equated to gospel, all things mundane are done for him.
He's a little older than me, NOT handsome, but charming and witty.
And I'm pretty sure he's living with #3 (or 4 or 5???) OW and, I kid you not,
he ASKED ME OUT FOR LUNCH. OMG he so read me wrong.
So, back to earth...learn what you can from that^^ anecdote but it seemed like God was showing me the "other side" of my h's life. Once, when d20 was just 5 DAYS old, I asked h to take some time off to help me with our new baby and 2 older kids, b/c we were in temporary housing and knew no one.
He made a comment about how lucky I was to be married to him. Maybe it was the hormones but I took that comment like a punch in the stomach and felt a horrible sense of danger.
I see now that he had a capacity for cruelty and selfishness that is impossible for him to overcome, long term. Please understand that just as the surgeon was charming and witty, he wronged the mother of his 4 children. My xh is well built, charming and witty and can ACT very sensitive. All these things can be true.
But I don't have the capacity for cruelty to anyone, let alone the father of my children. Let alone when they are vulnerable.
My xh does, and so does your h. Don't look away from that reality. Face it as best you can.
Next topic -
Also, filing for divorce in the state where you are now, does NOT require you to stick around there till resolution. You can file there, and then leave.
But the state you move to, has residency requirements which will delay your ability to file there. And you don't know their laws, correct?
AND filing in another state may not be advantageous to you, depending on their divorce laws. CHECK THAT ASAP PLEASE...
the lawyer you told you that your h does not know what's coming, is probably the one who "gets" it.
Also you seem to think by filing for divorce, YOU are ending the marriage and that it will mean nothing can ever be repaired.
I think the opposite. I think the only way this guy will wake up and smell the coffee, is by you filing. I do not expect it to happen. But it's the only way I can envision it.
He's treating you horribly and it's been going on awhile. No indication of a change.
Which means, to him, your devotion and loyalty -- are not working.
**I thought I'd "love my h thru his MLC" AND Then he'd reward my forgiving and steadfastness, with reciprocity and appreciation! We'd get past all this and be how we once were. I thought it had happened!
I was 100% wrong.
Eventually, and with a few bones thrown at me now and then, to help me maintain the illusion he was as invested in our marriage and family as I was, - in time -
He came to treat me with barely contained contempt. 6 months ago he actually told his L that he "hates" my guts. That amazes me.
I did nothing to deserve that and frankly, it sounds truly irrational to me. He betrayed ME in every way a h can betray a w. And HE hates ME??? Wow...
It must take a lot of energy on his end to delude himself into thinking I did anything to put him in the position he's in now. But my request, which the court granted, was temporary support. He felt he should pay ZERO support b/c, hey, I get 1/9 of his salary by way of a pension.
Still, the mean old court agreed with me, and that infuriated h to an insane level. He immediately posted on FB about OW being the 'love of his life" and our children were freaked out, and I was deeply wounded and shocked.
He then told our kids and swore under oath that he had "retired". That was a lie. We proved it. Proving he lied, did not humble him in the least. It angered him more!
Let ^^^ that sink in...and prepare yourself.
Like I said, I don't think your h is going to have a grand awakening anytime soon. But for sure it won't be by you "nicing" him back home. You cannot love him through this.
You have to stand up for yourself and let him see the strong empowered woman and protective mother, you are.
more later
Ginger, my husband really was that nice previously when he came fresh from his country where his family had raised him with values and his life had been simple. When he came here he saw how aggressive Americans are, even myself although I may not sound like it here. He used to apologize for everything, even when it was my fault, and bring flowers and cards and gifts. Gradually, when he had trouble getting a residency, and then in residency where he performed poorly and was treated terribly and abusively he began to act out and change. I was mad at him for not caring about our daughter every day when he came home, and at work he wasn't respected. I distinctly remember when he started to change. He would come home and stare at the wall and say "I don't like my life. I don't like my work. I don't like being married." Then everything deteriorated from there. My husband withdrew and I was struggling too much caring for our daughter and working multiple consulting jobs to reach out to him. It's a long story. None of us get to where we are in one step I'm sure. There are so many things that lead up to a spouse leaving or cheating.
25yrsmlc, it's just so appalling that your husband could be like that. Is he American? I used to try to rationalize things by saying my husband is from a different culture, survived war, etc.. but it seems anyone can become this way and do this to their spouse. How have you moved on? Did you start to date anyone else? Are you financially stable now?
I'll write more later!
He's American and politically conservative. "Traditional values". But he did become atheist about 6 years ago, and that seemed to give him permission to just pursue what he wanted, regardless of the costs to others.
In reality, historically xh had minimized the costs to others anyhow, like when we'd move he never admitted that the kids were going thru a lot. He'd give them a shallow PEP TALK!!! and then move on to another topic. So I'm not sure if he became atheist to justify bad choices or he made bad choices because he is atheist. Not sure it matters at all.
Have I moved on? Good question. I think that where the head goes, the heart will follow. So I work hard to get my heart to let what I know in my head, SINK IN. And I've zoomed ahead lately. That's the one upside to x's hideous behavior, I'm NOT confused by his present behavior. He's gone off the reservation and I'm not waiting around to see if he wants back in. IF he ever does, it would be years from now and by then, I will be in a totally different BETTER life. Heck, I already am.
I swear to you, I know ^^^this. I do hope we can be cordial for the kids sake.
Yes I am dating. I waited a year to date, but have been asked out several times.
I am dating a very kind, very smart guy, who makes an EFFORT in the R. (That's novel!)
He really put in tie to plan Valentines, which touched me deeply. He calls me often, makes it obvious that I am a priority in his life. It's kind of amazing.
But I'm not at all sure he's "the one". Statistically speaking, he probably isn't. We are by definition "rebounds" for each other.
But he's been such a comfort to me at this time in my life AND I am a comfort to him, and he's having a rough time in his life due to having both parents dying last year, his brother was paralyzed in an accident, etc.
I'm loathe to commit to anyone at this point, and my T made me SWEAR not to marry the first guy I dated. Even IF I thought the first guy was "the right one"<- she said I should still date around and then circle back.
She made full eye contact and made me swear I would "Not marry the first guy". It was a little heavy handed but I literally did swear. And I still remember how serious and "knowing" she was when she said this.
Whereas x will marry his OW, b/c he's a prideful fool, I am not competing with that. I understand the urge to feel as if not having another person makes you feel "he's winning."
But the "equation" is not "x versus me". It is about what I'm learning from this ordeal and how I'm GAL. Living well and discovering happiness on my own, and crowding out x and memories and painful triggers,
with my new joyful activities that require attention and focus, with new people and old friends and loved ones, is mandatory. Even with a child. You are modeling for her, how to heal from a broken heart. She will have one, someday. Show her how it's done. Be a woman of strength and dignity who recovers from adversity in a way that shows grace and fierce integrity.
Aside from the fact that I care very much for the man I'm dating, ("M") I have kept the R with him very private.
For one thing, M has an ex wife, and it would probably hurt her to know he's dating even though their marriage ended. And even though she's the rejecting party. I'm not the type to ignore how she'd feel.
I'm not interested in bragging to the world. Makes me feel that those who advertise their r's are doing so for insecure reasons. You know what I mean? Happy people are too busy BEING happy, to shove their r's in other people's faces.
I hear a LOT of men in divorce care say their wives' "won't remarry or even date" and I am amazed they feel that way. As if they cannot imagine another man being interested in their wives.
(It's really pretty annoying actually).
I will be careful to learn all I can from this ordeal. I will never be this hurt again so in a way, I am willing to take MORE risks, but not stupid ones.
make sense?
The good news is that I know I'm capable of attracting and being attracted to another man, and being well treated and seeing that a man is very attracted to me, is damn nice. You will find this to be true, as well.
I don't feel as if I will be alone if I don't want to be. Nor will you.
But this is the first time in my adult life I've been on my own and I like it a lot . I waited a year before dating. And I'm okay not being married.
You have a Daughter at home. When I had kids at home, I talked to a family psychologist about when to introduce a man to the kids.
His advice was that If you have kids at home, only introduce your D to a man when you feel somewhat sure you want that man in your life "for real." Maybe be 3/4 sure that he's the one...FWIW.
I knew a widower with 4 kids, who met a woman for coffee and then dinner. Then they decided to take dance lessons every Saturday night and would assess how they wanted to proceed, after the lessons. They hoped to see how they'd learn together and if there was chemistry, etc.
THEN they met each other's kids and married maybe a year later. He faced another tragedy when his 3rd child died and I'm glad to say that his wife#2 stood by him, LOVED his kids the way his late wife would have (She was my friend) and it was like a divine intervention for him and for his kids.
It happens. He was careful, I'll be careful, and you will be too.
The odds are against your h and his "schmoopie" lasting, and even if they do, he'll always resent her for the loss of his daughter "look what I gave up for YOU" and garbage like that. And she can be with a man who she sees ignores his first wife and child. That has to give you pause.
If they each lack empathy, then he's found someone of his caliber. That's karma.
You asked - yes Financially, I will have "enough". It's not "fair", it's not what I should have gotten. But I have financial security, if that is your question.
I have income for life, and soon it'll be sent directly to me and NOT from h, who sends me random amounts and always late. When I'm a little older, I'll have a nest egg. X will have a lot more MONEY, but he's lost the 4 people who loved him the most. And if he emerges from this unscathed, and isn't haunted, then he really does lack the empathy gene.
And that's a soul sucking way for me to live. Now, I don't have to.
In the interim, xh really messed me up. By taking ALL the marital money, I had to borrow for legal fees and that was NOT easy to do. Thankfully, I'm from a huge family and they lent me A LOT of money to fight.
If not for them, I'd be up a creek. Seriously. I want you to realize how lucky I am.
That is how some people get screwed in these situations, as it's like a war of attrition. X has more resources so he could try to say "oh, I forgot to pay 25 what I agreed...and So what??"
And my family would rally and the other lawyers in my family would jump in and PUNISH x in a way h h would not want. (But it's a lot to ask of them. I'd only do that in a "grand finale emergency.") I'm SO grateful for my family.
I was very sick when he decided to leave and I was impaired. My son drove up and was shocked and he probably will not ever see h in the same light. My sisters flew out to pack me, my BIL flew out to drive me and my dog, in a moving van, across the country.
So when I say that I'm not sure how I'd have managed to do what I needed to do while I was so confused and unable to concentrate (I had a neurological event out of nowhere and X was just AWOL and nasty and it was stunning to me that he'd be so out of line mean. It was embarrassing, and my family was appalled. X can tell others whatever he tells them but I'll always know - and at some level he does too - he really disappointed our family and that was the foggiest time of my life AND YET I saw him so clearly then.
A switch was flipped.
It's a lot for x to over come and if he thinks he can just treat me badly and then pretend that's all separate from his r's with the kids, is insane.
I am very uncomfortable with you waiting to see what your H does, as if you filing for D is somehow going to hurt your chances of a recon.
I think you are still afraid of "making him mad." I mean, could he treat you much worse?
Thing is, he IS mad at you now. And he WILL be mad the second you ask for anything of him. He is already mad at you for being...you... Leaving a door open!!...I mean, step back to see how out of control he is NOW. Your h is biding his time. He may even get a default judgement against you when you move out of state, or say you abducted the daughter or abandoned him.
Please protect yourself BEFORE you leave the area.
Soon, my x will be a dot on the horizon in my rear view mirror, and someday, someday,
he will hold the place of irrelevance he so richly deserves.
And I will be just fine.
Friends, I'd like to share an update and a few thoughts and then finish responding to 25yrsmlc's last post.
In two weeks I'll be moving up North to one of the major cities as I planned last fall. It's a little hard to believe I'm moving. There are risks - what if I don't find the right job? What if paying out-of-pocket for high quality health insurance isn't sustainable? What if my daughter doesn't like her new school? On the other hand I can't stay here any longer where I live now. It's too depressing and despite being very active here socially.
Anyway, I believe it was on January 4th when my husband had his big outburst saying he wants an immediate divorce, there's no hope, everything was a mistake, etc.. Now it's the end-of-March and he's done nothing to pursue the divorce. He mentioned it when he was in a terrible mood three weeks ago, but since then he's acted normal and hasn't mentioned anything.
Today my husband was visiting and I thought he was going to ask about the divorce when he said "I scheduled an appointment....with an accountant to do our taxes."
On the day when my daughter and I move into our new apartment my husband will be there waiting for us, or so he says. He's going to fly up there the night before and he'll meet us when we arrive in the morning with our car. He says he wants to be there to 'check everything and make sure it's ok.' He says he'll see how it goes and maybe he'll stay there with us that night.
I just wonder what's happening.
25yrsmlc - that's great to hear you're dating. That is a big step forward. It must be so great to have someone with whom you can go out and spend time. That's also very fortunate for you that you had family to help out both financially and with helping you get moved and probably with emotional support as well. If you have financial security now, even if it's not what you should have, that's also still a positive thing. It seems the right elements are in place for you to move on even though surely you sometimes the divorce affects you on some level. It's encouraging to hear your story. Thanks for taking the time share it. I really do appreciate the tips about dating in the future and introducing someone to my daughter.
I understand what you're saying about protecting myself before I leave. I'm still thinking about it and will discuss it with my therapist tomorrow, but one thing that is hard to do is convey the full situation over a forum like this. As you know there are many caveats and not everything gets shared here in a public place. My friends who know the situation best believe it's ok to wait to take any action, but I will have my husband sign-off that he agrees for our daughter to move out-of-state regardless.
One of my physicians (I've also been sick) knows my husband and I saw him this week. He began to reveal that he knows a lot and clearly my husband has opened up to him. He said he believes my husband is burned out from working 60 - 80 hours per week.
I appreciate that those here on this forum who are further along in the process don't want to see us new ones make mistakes. I don't know at this moment if I'm making a mistake by not filing for divorce right at this time, but I do know the divorce wouldn't be finalized by the time I move and I don't want to delay moving. There's a lot to consider. One thing I really need is just to get away from here and to stabilize enough to think clearly.
The biggest disappointment of all for me, coming to this forum, is seeing the lack of success other members have had with the DB techniques from the book. I had a lot of confidence previously that DB is the way to go, but now I'm not so sure. There's nothing wrong with working on oneself to move forward with or without their spouse, but that's not why most of us come here. It seems we can totally shut out our spouse or we can beg and plead and neither will make any difference. This is really discouraging.
I'm always exhausted by the time I get a chance to post here so I didn't get to say everything on my mind, but thanks again 25yrsmlc and everyone else who has offered guidance and encouragement. I really do appreciate it.
Nicole
there are two basic approaches to these hard situations when one spouse is out the door or is saying they are.
One is the tough love approach and the other is the DB approach of detachment and GAL, and forgiving a lot.
There might be a hybrid of sorts too. Here, the marriages are in serious trouble, not just facing a challenge.
In my case, I wish I had been firmer and enforced boundaries more, 10 years ago. It might not have made the difference, but I'd feel better about things, and who knows?
Maybe it would have truly shocked h back into our family, and changed him,
or maybe it would have ended the m sooner (not saying that's a bad or good thing either).
Maybe DBing gave us an extra 10 years and MAYBE that was not a waste...maybe I'd have discovered more about h then, that I have learned the past 18 months.
I know one thing for sure - Had I known then - what I know now, I'd have cut him loose long ago.
Marriages in trouble can work out, and I have 2 family members who actually divorced and later remarried their former spouses. A few years later...
(Note that they divorced, and they changed, and then they reconciled. And yes, the 2nd time around was better.)
Nicole, all I'm really saying is to get information from a lawyer in your present state and THEN figure out more of what you'll do. I filed in October in our home state, and moved east 2 weeks later. Our whole D has been conducted in a state in which neither of us lives.
In any case, gather intel and be empowered by the knowledge you gain. You need DO NOTHING, but gather information. Are your friends objecting to that??
And one last thing, I stayed with my x based A LOT on sunk costs and his potential as a h.
I may be repeating myself ^^^here, but it's worth repeating. It's very very common.
Learn from my errors, please. It'll make me feel a little useful here.
The biggest disappointment of all for me, coming to this forum, is seeing the lack of success other members have had with the DB techniques from the book.
I've been here 6 years. Nearly every sitch I've followed ended in success (the few I wouldn't call particularly "successful" are situations where people got stuck in limbo due to their own inaction). Right now you probably think recon is the only path to success. It is not. A lot of the sitches here do end in recon (unfortunately a lot of those people quit posting after recon because they don't feel the need to come here anymore, "problem solved" as it were). Many sitches result in the LBS becoming so strong and independent that they no longer want recon. Both of those are successful endings. Mine falls under the latter, in the end I was the one that pushed the D through. DBing didn't save my M, it saved ME and although I didn't realize it at the time, that was even more important. I became stronger, more independent, in better shape, more responsible, more centered, more positive. I'm in a new R now and can honestly say DB'ing has saved it from following the same path as my previous M.
It seems we can totally shut out our spouse or we can beg and plead and neither will make any difference. This is really discouraging.
If that's what you think then you don't understand DB'ing at all. Do you read Sandi's rules and think "oh OK I need to completely shut my H out of my life" because that is NOT what those rules say.
N - Just to add to what AS said. DBing did not save my MR as I will be D'd in two weeks. Will my W and I have an opportunity to RECON at some point after the D is final? Maybe? It sounds like the chances are good at some point.
I think some people define recon as happening before you D but I think in many situations it happens after.
Whether or not that ever happens to me I have no clue but what I can tell you is that I am a much better person today in all aspects of my life than I was a year ago at this time.
I have not shut my W out of my life but I am doing everything I can to move on emotionally. I have got to the point to where I am pleasant, polite, talkative, and realistically interacting as I normally would without any expectations from her or what she does or say impacting me in any way.
I don't initiate or bring us up but when she reaches out to me there is not an emotional impact (for the most part). I don't hang on every word or every interaction like I used to.
Just remember it takes 2 to make a MR work and no matter what you do DB or beg and plead if the other spouse wants out there is nothing you can do.
My 10 cents.
Nicole, I think sometimes the term "detachment" implies the wrong idea. We think we are "shutting out" the other person. That is why I prefer the term "differentiation". Do a Google search on "differentiation in marriage". I think the definitions you find will be very helpful to the actual concept of "detaching" that is discussed here.
Nicole, it would be great if DBing worked all the time, but like 25 says, by the time people get on this site their marriages are really in trouble. I'm a perfect example of that. You may be as well. But I know that if I hadn't practiced the techniques discussed here, I'd've wallowed in my misery, and would be far worse off.
You say you wonder what's happening. I think what's happening is you are his plan B, C or D. He's not pushing the divorce forward in case things don't work out with his 25 year old girlfriend.
Is your sense of self worth so low that being plan B is ok with you? I think not; don't act like it. You don't need him waiting for you to make sure you're ok. No, you're not ok, you're moving because he left you and said he's filing for divorce. You don't need him to check and make sure you're ok.
He has decided that working 60-80 hours a week and his new girlfriend are more important than you are. Until he changes his mind (don't count on it) you need to distance emotionally (!) as well as physically.
Nicole
I'm confused by you saying you don't know what is happening. But I was like you in a way. I felt "confused" b/c my x's behaviors and actions were at odds with who I BELIEVED and HOPED he was.
But the actions were who he was and are who he is today. So there's no real confusion on his end. Your h does not yet benefit by filing for divorce, either financially and or due to his public image concerns.
But he's not saying or acting like a husband, towards you.
Instead of wondering what HE wants or plans, let's take a look at what YOU will accept before cutting your losses...
(IF IF IF there's a chance he will wake up to the loss he caused, there has to be an actual loss. So far, there's no loss to him. Classic cake eating, which seems to lessen their respect of the LBS). He's walking all over you and it's not endearing him to you at all. Just the opposite.
In other words, appeasing him is failing. And it's probably eating away even more at your self esteem.
Hang in there, you are not alone.
25yrsmls, AnotherStander, Joseph, Steve, and Jim, thank you so much for your responses. I seem to keep getting online too late every day and I try to always respond to someone else's post before my own, since we all need to support each other, but I really want to respond to each of your responses. I really appreciate your honesty and willingness to question my statements.
It's hard to think straight. I'm so exhausted though I kind of just want to forget about my marriage altogether and just move, start working, spend time with my friends, and focus on my daughter. Despite what I write here I've done quite a good job at DB in real life so perhaps there's a little more success than what I recognize. Maybe my husband saw the changes, which are sincere ones, and has second thoughts. Who knows. Regardless I can't just accept him back if he would ever come back.
I hope I can respond to each of you tomorrow. Thanks again!
I think my biggest mistake in my journey was not truly detaching. I still have trouble GAL (when you have 3 small children and a WH who barely steps up to parenting it becomes particularly challenging.) It causes waves of jealousy to think of another woman being with my WH. Not to mention the sledge hammer WH's criticisms of my physique, personality and intelligence take on my self esteem.
Forgive me my friend, my rage is clouding my ability to give any constructive advice. I just wanted you to know you are not alone. I also feel let down by DBing, let's face it, I could read any self help book to work on myself but I wanted to save my marriage. That didn't happen and I feel disappointed my children will be from a divorced household.
25yrsmlc, my sense is the DB approach is better than the tough love approach when someone walks out-the-door, since tough love doesn't offer much incentive to bring someone back at that point. It's nice to hear you have two families members who divorced and re-married. That's what my husband suggested a month or two back. I have mixed feelings about that but if he really wanted to change and sought long-term professional treatment then that'd be great to fix it. I did get more information from the legal standpoint this week but it didn't really change anything. Even if I get divorced here, unemployed, then get a job in another state and earn an income, or my husband loses his income, whatever happens will get adjusted even after divorce. I don't have much time to write in detail about it but basically I didn't find any reason not to move first, so I'm still moving. I see reasons to stay with my husband as well, based on sunk costs, but my husband is gone so there's nothing for me to decide there.
AnotherStander, I'm happy to hear you're aware of success stories that include both reconciliation and otherwise. That's really encouraging. I haven't been on this forum for too long so perhaps I only got a glimpse, and by chance, they've been mostly non-reconciliation stories. If I had come here two years ago mine would have been a reconciliation story as well, since my husband came back begging me to take him back the first time. I guess the long-term prospects once a reconciliation takes place are less guaranteed. In regard to understanding DB, I used a poor choice of words because I was writing fast and late at night but yes, I know that shutting someone out isn't the DB approach. I think 'going dark' is one technique of many to which I was briefly referring and that's for the purpose of self-growth and detachment....I'm writing fast again but I will try to finish the response more later...
Sorry everyone I will have to finish the responses later. My daughter is done with lunch and I have to go!
...I supported my husband financially for six years until he got a paid residency program. I also lived alone, traveled around the world alone, and did everything alone. I was independent but I didn't find happiness in that. To me, the happiest time of my life was the first six years with my husband until we started having problems. Life is so much better with a partner.
I think you and I have a lot in common, because this is so very much me.
<3
I also really struggle with seeing how many relationships here don't end up in recon. But -- if that isn't possible, I need to at least know I am doing what I need to for me. While Sandi's rules and detachment seem to be a big challenge right now and even counterintuitive? I also KNOW it is the right thing because it both gives H what he says he needs (space, time for reflection) AND it does it in a way that respects myself. To me, those are crucial.
Good luck with the move.
As pointed out, I think the non-reconners tend to stick around. It appears that most that move on to R leave the board. So I think it isn't an accurate picture to say that there are so many here that don't end up in R.
It is kind of like the automotive forum I am on. People come in and see a couple of dozen people complaining of a specific problem and then say, "why doesn't -insert OEM- address this?!?" Though there are literally thousands of vehicles of that make and model that don't have the issue, because a couple of dozen squeaky wheels are there the issue is overblown. People that don't have the problem don't go to the forum and say "hey! Every thing is perfect! Just thought I'd sign up for an account to post that."
Joseph9, I can see how reconciliation often takes place after divorce. It seems like that's the point when both partners finally face the reality of their decision. I imagine the momentum changes because suddenly the one who wanted a divorce so badly got it, and then what? Now that person is free to do what they wish. If they don't have the perfect life they envisioned, or if they start to see their mistakes, perhaps their heart softens and they start to miss their partner or at least want to feel more at peace by reconciling somehow. What do you think will happen with you and your wife after you divorce?
Steve85, I tried reading several articles about differentiation and they were helpful. I don't know if I fully grasp the concept yet because it was described in different ways, but I'll keep reading.
Jim, thanks for the good reminder. I don't know if I'm my husband's plan b or c or anything at all. I've distanced myself though, and I'm moving physically far away. I do wonder how that will change the dynamic with my husband once he sees me living independently, working, and moving on in the new city. Not because I'm doing those things to bring him back, but because I think our lives at that point will be fully separate so if we both find ourselves better off then there is little chance at that point we'll reconcile. On the other hand, if my husband realizes he made a huge mistake, then he'll have to make the effort to move up our way, get professional help, etc.. and I'll be in the stronger position. There are many thoughts that run through my mind about the future. I do think there's a difference between now and six months ago because six months ago it would have been easy to reconcile if we'd been separate for just a few weeks. Now it's been seven months and this is a more serious matter, especially since my husband wants a divorce, has a girlfriend, lives in our house alone, etc.. So it's past the point of being a plan b. Now I've lost everything and will have to re-build everything. My husband is gone. I'll write more below what I think might be happening.
25years, I'm wondering what's happening because in January my husband wanted an immediate divorce. Now he's not talking about divorce at all. So I don't know what he's thinking. He's about to feel loss though, because we're moving and he can't just pass by for ten minutes here-and-there to say hi to our daughter. Now if he wants to see her he'll have to book a flight, take off work, and travel. This is not convenient for him. I'm not moving to make it harder for my husband to see our daughter but because I need to work and I can't find a job here in this vacation town where we live. I chose our old city because that's where I can find a job and also because that's where I have the most friends. It's hard to capture what's actually happening vs. all the confusion I feel in my mind internally here in these short posts, but appeasing my husband isn't how I'd describe what's happening. It's more the anticipation of change and wondering what life will be like after we move. It's still hard to process sometimes how seven months ago we were preparing to move into our dream home and spend the next several decades here in this city and now I'm moving for the ninth time in five years, again, to a new place without my husband, becoming a single mom, making decisions totally alone. Maybe my husband was walking all over me these past six months because I was physically ill and couldn't do much for a while, I've been unemployed, and I was caring for our daughter full-time while he has all the freedom in the world. Now that will change though.
PsySara, it really helps to know someone understands and is going through the same thing at the same time. There are other marriage help programs out there with more documented success rates but I guess even a short-term success doesn't translated into long-term success as you discovered yourself. Marriage is just hard once one person wanders off-track. I hope we can both continue documenting our experiences here and learn from one another.
Mybest, you may see that PsySara is also married to a Muslim man so you can follow her thread too. It's nice to hear that you understand as well. I hope for a more positive outcome in your case!
Everyone, if I may, I just want to share another update as a follow-on to everything. My husband has been coming by every day. He's started to do 'normal' things again like eat snacks from the kitchen, talk about things happening in his life, makes eye contact, and laughs and makes jokes. Maybe we're just becoming friends as we face divorce. Or maybe my husband recognizes that I'm changing and he's reacting to how I've become different. I'm happy though. I don't really care at the moment about the status of our relationship. I don't want to ask my husband what he's thinking. I'm just glad that it's peaceful right now and I hope I can stay strong and make it through the move and be truly independent. I'm happier right now with the unknown than the known, because I like to think that there are multiple possible positive outcomes such as reconciling in the future, finding a new husband after divorce, or just staying married but separated without a clear path for the time being. It's hard to describe because I go through so many emotions and thought processes every day because at times I remember all the fun and laughter and happiness my husband and I had together and at other times I remember all the bad things he's done. But things are better at the moment now that I'm moving. We'll see what happens.
Steve85, I tried reading several articles about differentiation and they were helpful. I don't know if I fully grasp the concept yet because it was described in different ways, but I'll keep reading.
Nicole, one explanation that helped me was this:
In relationships we can be in one of 3 dependent states: dependent/codependent, independent, or interdependent.
Dependence/codependency is unhealthy because it causes us to gain our self-worth and emotional validation from our spouse. This means if they begin to pull away (either through differentiation (healthy) or independence (unhealthy) we panic and freak-out. And try to hold on with all of our might. This causes the spouse to pull even further away. If they were pulling away do to independence then we will push them away into leaving the R. If they were merely differentiating, our actions could push them into independence and beyond.
Independence is when we begin to gain our self-worth and emotional validation at the expense of the MR and spouse. Independence really has no place in a marriage since we agreed to give up independence when we married. Independence can take many forms: emotional and physical absenteeism, affairs, etc. The next step from independence is leaving the MR, IE D.
Interdependence is the healthy state of retaining your individualism, and therefore relying on yourself for emotional stability and validation, but also being fully engaged in a your MR. When both spouses have "differentiated" in this way, they can then be "interdependent". This is the state where 3 entities exist: both individual spouses plus the MR. None of them are independent, but neither are they unhealthily attached (IE give up themselves by being too emotionally dependent on their spouse).
Achieving interdependence requires differentiation! Becoming aware of one's individuality, self-validation and self emotional stability within the bounds of the MR.
The differentiated individual in a MR doesn't overreact to what their spouse says or does. But neither do they stonewall or shutout their spouse based on their spouse's behavior.
Think about how to react on BD. The dependent individual will panic, and beg, plead, and reason with their spouse's bomb. The independent individual won't care at all. The differentiated individual would calmly explain that they disagree with the spouse's proclamation but that they will be okay (note that doesn't mean happy or ecstatic!) regardless of what the spouse decides.
If anyone wants to see a recon success story, go look up Benito's thread. His original threads had to be archived and moved, but the one that's kicking around still has awesome stuff about how he DB'd and what happened with his story.
Go search for Benito in my watch list and pull up his thread.
Let me add a word of caution here. Benito truly dropped the rope, worked on himself, and gave his W tons of space. And it resulted in recon. Will it last, I surely hope so. I hope Benito comes back and gives an update sometime.
But, J9 also DB'd like a champ and his W didn't waver in her wanting a D. Having followed both of their sitch's closely, and they were in my timeframe as well when I got here, I can tell you that both of them DB'd their hearts out and had different outcomes when it comes to their W's. Does this make J9's journey less impressive? Definitely not! J9 is as much of a success story as Benito.
So, even if you DB completely, you may not have the recon outcome you were hoping for in the time frame you're thinking. Maybe it will happen after D. Maybe it will happen before D.
But what is for sure true about both of them is that they are way better men than when they came here. And that growth will be appreciated by someone.
Don't have recon as the ultimate marker of success - you don't have control over it as you might think. DBing gives you the best chance at it. period.
If anyone wants to see a recon success story, go look up Benito's thread. His original threads had to be archived and moved, but the one that's kicking around still has awesome stuff about how he DB'd and what happened with his story.
Go search for Benito in my watch list and pull up his thread.
Let me add a word of caution here. Benito truly dropped the rope, worked on himself, and gave his W tons of space. And it resulted in recon. Will it last, I surely hope so. I hope Benito comes back and gives an update sometime.
But, J9 also DB'd like a champ and his W didn't waver in her wanting a D. Having followed both of their sitch's closely, and they were in my timeframe as well when I got here, I can tell you that both of them DB'd their hearts out and had different outcomes when it comes to their W's. Does this make J9's journey less impressive? Definitely not! J9 is as much of a success story as Benito.
So, even if you DB completely, you may not have the recon outcome you were hoping for in the time frame you're thinking. Maybe it will happen after D. Maybe it will happen before D.
But what is for sure true about both of them is that they are way better men than when they came here. And that growth will be appreciated by someone.
Don't have recon as the ultimate marker of success - you don't have control over it as you might think. DBing gives you the best chance at it. period.
Extremely well said.
Steve, thanks for offering that explanation. I can see how I became too dependent on my husband. For years we did everything together and rarely went more than an hour without talking. It felt like we were partners, best friends, and everything together. I have hundreds or maybe thousands of e-mails from my husband telling me I'm a perfect wife, how much he loves me, etc.. I was so happy with him and I think I gradually became dependent by default and because I thought that's what marriage is. Now I can see the advantages of interdependence since my husband is gone. I'll work towards grasping it more fully and aiming for it in my next relationship. I wish to think I could still have that level of closeness with another person in the future, but apparently it has to be more balanced.
Maika, thanks for sharing Benito's thread. I look forward to reading it. I will also respond more to your thread ASAP. I do wish to know what others define as reconciliation. I've been thinking it's finding peace with the other person, such as forgiveness and being able to talk and be friends again. If reconciliation is defined as staying married or getting re-married then that's something different. I don't even know what I want anymore. I'm exhausted. I'm glad at the moment that at least for now, there is some peace. I hope to end up a better person. There are some things that have held me back like facing a health crisis and buying into certain schools of thought that are different than what many here believe, but I'm trying to persevere. I have some exciting job prospects which should help and my health is getting better. I was 93 pounds in January and now I'm 100 which is a big improvement. I wish to be more like you. I'll try not to make excuses for myself. I'm trying to re-gain confidence and be a good role model for my daughter. I want to re-read your thread and will try to adopt your way of thinking!
I've also gained back 8 of the 10 lbs I had lost after BD. Nicole, that weight gain in and of itself shows personal growth! Think about how hard it was to eat and sleep at first. Gaining self-reliance means that you can once again sleep and eat. So please congratulate yourself in that regard.
What do you think will happen with you and your wife after you divorce?
I really have no clue. We are 100% amicable and at minimum I hope that it continues as we work together for the next 11 years raising our children.
I don't think about a future with us being together but I am not quite sure she is done yet either. She just called me 5 min ago to tell me what her condo appraised for.
Just remember you can only control yourself....you can't force your H to return and you would only want him to return because he loves you and wants to be with you not because your some consolation prize and his first option didn't work out.
Benito's is a great example, he was a model DB'er even though he had to fight his instincts to do it and in the end it paid off. His earlier threads would have been a great read for new people because he went through all the same stuff most here go through, the same doubts and worries and fears. Unfortunately he became concerned his W would see the threads and had them deleted.
Because so many people complain that there are no success stories, I started trying to bookmark them. I just started this a couple of months ago so don't have many yet, but they are all very similar in that these people ALL thought at some point that their sitches were hopeless and would never be saved, yet they all eventually reconned.
Txhubby
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...478#Post2748478Joejoe1
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2758010#Post2758010dday101798
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1781811&page=74Notlikingthis
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2515648&page=1upside
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2260170#Post2260170Freckle
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2735806#Post2735806In addition to these I've read quite a few posts where someone will come back here after years and say they reconned back then but never posted about it, but they are having trouble again so coming back for help. Read that again- WHEN THEY RECONNED THEY STOPPED POSTING COLD TURKEY. They never thanked anyone, they never said "hey just wanted to let you guys know it worked out", nothing. They just dropped off the forums. Why? Who knows, maybe they didn't want to revisit bad memories, maybe they felt like their problems were over so they didn't need to come here again, I don't know. The point is we hardly ever hear the success stories because the people don't share them.
Maika, thanks for sharing Benito's thread. I look forward to reading it. I will also respond more to your thread ASAP. I do wish to know what others define as reconciliation. I've been thinking it's finding peace with the other person, such as forgiveness and being able to talk and be friends again. If reconciliation is defined as staying married or getting re-married then that's something different. I don't even know what I want anymore. I'm exhausted. I'm glad at the moment that at least for now, there is some peace. I hope to end up a better person. There are some things that have held me back like facing a health crisis and buying into certain schools of thought that are different than what many here believe, but I'm trying to persevere. I have some exciting job prospects which should help and my health is getting better. I was 93 pounds in January and now I'm 100 which is a big improvement. I wish to be more like you. I'll try not to make excuses for myself. I'm trying to re-gain confidence and be a good role model for my daughter. I want to re-read your thread and will try to adopt your way of thinking!
I've followed your thread Nicole, and I know you've been to hell and back. I know this is so hard and I totally feel you when there are other schools of thought that are different than here and you want to reach out and grab them hoping it's true. I feel like you've not really had a solid chance to stabilize yourself because of your health issues and employment changes. Your life did turn upside down from where you were in your career and that's a massive thing to deal with. So, give yourself a break and be compassionate to yourself.
You just said it yourself - you're exhausted. Don't try and tackle the whole world right now. Put all your energies right now into improving your health and all those exciting job prospects. Just get through that and your move and then see what the next steps are.
My problem was that I was trying to do too many things at the same time and it was destroying me. IC told me to chill out and start with one thing and then accomplish that and move on to the next. Slowly phase things in. I know it sounds logical and intuitive, but it was hard for me to do with the way my mind worked at that point. But, I made a mental shift and put 100% of my energy into one thing and then the next. And it worked!!
So, just do that and you will emerge more grounded and stronger and even more present for your daughter. My relationship with my kids has improved a thousand fold and it was because I worked on myself and put everything into it. Now my outlook and personality has changed and my responses to them come naturally. But, it took time and training and lot of self-reflection.
Give yourself time, space, love, and patience. I am looking forward to hearing about your move, your new job, and the wonderful life you will have for you and your daughter - something that you will build over the next few years, but the seeds of that life are starting soon.
You got this!
....that I'm changing and he's reacting to how I've become different. I'm happy though. I don't really care at the moment about the status of our relationship. I don't want to ask my husband what he's thinking. I'm just glad that it's peaceful right now and I hope I can stay strong and make it through the move and be truly independent. I'm happier right now with the unknown than the known, because I like to think that there are multiple possible positive outcomes such as reconciling in the future, finding a new husband after divorce, or just staying married but separated without a clear path for the time being. It's hard to describe because I go through so many emotions and thought processes every day because at times I remember all the fun and laughter and happiness my husband and I had together and at other times I remember all the bad things he's done. But things are better at the moment now that I'm moving. We'll see what happens.
I just want to let you know it's nice to hear you say that. ^^^
It's been rough for you, but you seem like you're in a much better place emotionally. I think you have a wonderful life waiting for you in your new city.
Joseph9, it's good to hear it's amicable. I hope there is still a chance for you to reconcile later for your children's sake and since you and your wife are getting along better now.
Anotherstander, thanks so much for sharing those other threads. That's great. I will study them closely as often as I have time because it would be helpful to compare what goes into a reconciliation and what doesn't. Not that reconciliation is a real option for me, but to better see the real life application of how DB can lead to it. I did a phone session with a Christian counselor, and my current counselor is very Christian-focused, and both recommended I keep feeding the marriage, trying to connect with my husband, have hope and confidence to fix the marriage, and trust that God with soften my husband's heart. This is a different school of thought and the Christian counselor on the phone kept saying "You can do this! You can fix your marriage! No other approach will work because it won't be based on love like this approach. Don't worry about an affair. It will end. You can have the marriage you want, etc.." The phone counselor gave me a long list of things to do and said I'd start to see results before too long. This was in January but I didn't do most of those things because I'm stuck between that and the DB approach and of course not really knowing if trying to save the marriage is wise considering my husband is now a serial-cheater.
Maika, thanks for your support. I'll try to do as you suggest and focus mainly on moving and then finding the right job. I do have a lot of social activities already planned in the new city which I'll probably still do with my daughter. Sometimes it's too easy to make excuses for why certain things won't work due to my daughter but I'm finding that being honest with people about being a single mom is ok. One of my friends who may offer me a job says she'd be ok with me taking my daughter overseas if I need to travel and can't leave her with anyone here.
Jim, thanks so much. Yes I feel like I've been sucked into a black hole. I can't even grasp what's happened sometimes, but I'm grateful at the moment that I didn't have to endure the immediate divorce my husband threatened because I was so weak in January that I honestly don't know if I could have made it. Now that I'm moving and the divorce is at least on hold I feel like I can at least breath. I do have a great life waiting in the new city (my old city). It's not what I want. I want to live here with my husband in our beautiful home surrounded by beautiful nature without all the stress of living in a crowded urban area, but I don't have that option. I will try to become a city person again. I at least loved my career and will be happy to work again although I have to try hard to make sure my daughter is the priority in everything.
This afternoon my husband came over. We spent over an hour discussing finances related to the move. It actually went well. It's the first time since last summer we were able to discuss something constructively without me ending up in tears or my husband being frustrated and walking away. We agreed on everything and both felt good at the end. The only bad part was my husband started making up some lame excuse about how he still doesn't have the car he wants because he's sending us so much money. I couldn't handle that comment so I reminded him this is his choice and if we had stayed together our finances would be better. He said "that's not an option." So clearly he wants to stay separated. He didn't mentioned divorce today though. This is coming from the same man who said "Even if I lose my job, lose the house, have to back to my country, and someone gouges out my insides I will divorce you" just weeks ago.
I think what happened is my husband was too lazy or busy to start the divorce process. Then some time passed, perhaps the euphoria from his girlfriend wore off a little, and my husband realized he doesn't *need* an immediate divorce so he'll just let things slide for a while. Now we're leaving and he probably figures he'll already have his freedom here alone in this city so he'll try that out for a while and see how that goes. This is my guess.
I'm not saying I'm hoping my husband will want to reconcile because logistically that's going to be difficult and my daughter and I's lives have already been destroyed so it's too late for any easy fix. I'm just grateful that I have the opportunity to recover a little, regain some strength, and stabilize hopefully before divorce is necessary or the topic is raised again.
There's always that small hope that my husband will realize all his mistakes and commit to long-term professional treatment and work hard for an extended period of time to fix everything, in which case I would still consider it because I loved him all these years and we have a child together, but that small hope isn't really on my mind currently.
I just hope everything goes smoothly in the next few weeks and then maybe I'll be better prepared for whatever happens.
Thanks again everyone for your support.
Hi Nicole,
I'm sorry I've not been here for you. But I have been thinking of you.
You sound so strong! I'm so pleased you've decided to move and make your and your daughters life a priority. It's taken the focus off H and placed it where it needs and should be right now. And it's payed off. No doubt theres still sadness and doubt but you're moving in the right direction.
There'll always be time in the future to move back to a more rural life, for now you need your days filled with work, your daughter and the relief of knowing you can provide for yourself. You should feel so proud of yourself.
Good luck, I'm excited for you.
I think it's awesome how you reminded him that he didn't have the car he wanted because of HIS choices. I'm just worried that as soon as you move, with no actual divorce in progress, and no legally binding alimony/CS required, he's going to find it inconvenient to continue sending you money.
I think my W is kind of the same way, about being too lazy to finish the divorce process. This whole process was devastating to me, and the idea of pushing the D was, at the time, unthinkable. The good news, that I think you will find relatable, is that now, with distance and time, I am stronger, no longer want this hanging over me, and I am the one pushing it forward.
The earlier discussion in this thread about "success" (I know Nicole you were wanting success in R) related to our sitchs really got me thinking.
The movie "War of the Roses" came to mind. Success if D or R is if everyone comes out of it unharmed and healthy. While "War of the Roses" is an extreme fictional tale, it is cautionary in that those that do not take care of themselves can let things devolve to a level where things can escalate and people can get hurt.
Let me tell you the true story of Larry and Liza (names changed to protect the innocent. And the guilty).
These were dear friends of my W's and mine. We loved them and were named the guardians of their kids in case of untimely death to both of them. Liza and my W shared a special bond and considered each other the sister they never had. Larry was one of the sweetest men you'd ever meet, with an unbelievable tenor voice. He is the best singer I've ever personally known. He sang in a couple of quartet gospel groups.
Liza was raised in the same church as me. My wife converted when we were dating, and Liza was kind of hesitant because of her upbringing. She now belonged to Larry's denomination, but they were rarely there because Larry was always traveling with the gospel quartet.
We got together with these friends as often as we could. We watched their family grow, they watched ours grow. They were amazing friends, and we reciprocated. Though we lived an hour a way we both made special efforts to get together at least once a month, sometimes more.
Eventually Liza started to grow weary of the teachings of the denomination and her and Larry began studying with our minister. We'd watch the kids for them while they studied. Eventually Larry was converted and Liza and he began attending a congregation in their area. Larry gave up the gospel quartet singing as it increasingly took him away from worshipping on Sundays with his family.
Eventually Larry got involved with several guys from church (a preacher, elder and deacon!) to form a covers rock band. Larry's voice was incredibly similar to Steve Perry's from Journey, and their Journey covers were so unbelievable.
About the summer of 2005 things started to change. They weren't in contact with us as often. They were making plans with us as often. At the time we didn't think much about it as people get busy and time can go by.
At new years 2005 we were invited to their house with friends from church for a new years party. Liza seemed to be a bit distant to my wife and I. It was subtle so I kind of blew it off at the time. Chalking it up to the mix of people that were at the party. A couple days later I sent her, with my wife CC'd, an email saying how much we enjoyed the party and getting together with Christian friends where we didn't have to worry about the kind of activities that would go on at the party.
We never received a response. Which was strange. Again we didn't think much about it.
Larry's cover band were asked to be an opening act for a local Kansas concert and Larry wanted my W and I there! He called me that summer to set it up and get us tickets. (My W had to work the day of the concert so I attended alone.) It was kind of odd that Liza didn't handle this as she was usually the one to do so. (This was the summer of 2006).
I went and Larry rocked it. One thing you have to know about Larry was that he was a lifelong Type 1 Diabetic. Having grown up in a religious family his lifestyle had fallen away from that in his younger years, and his partying caused his diabetes to eventually cause him to go legally blind. Though he could see he couldn't see well enough to work (disabled) or drive. He was in a boot from an ankle break (just stepping down off a ladder broke his ankle) during the concert, but it was one of his really good days and his voice was incredible.
He mentioned at the concert that the band was going to play at one of the member's house on Labor Day, and he wanted us to come. I told him to call me with the details.
In August Larry called me to give me the details of the Labor Day party the band was playing at. I asked him how things were going. He said: "Things are going great with the band. Not so much with Liza and I." This was shocking news. He told me she had said she didn't want to be married anymore and that she wanted him to get an apartment near her and the kids.
I was devastated as I hung up the phone and told my W about it. She was perplexed. The next day she called Larry and told him that there had to be someone else, that this just wasn't Liza. Not someone must have been influencing her. Liza was such a strong Christian that she didn't even want her kids watching Chitty Chitty Bang Bang at our house because she was afraid it glamorized witchcraft! (I didn't agree with her on that but it was her kids.)
Larry began to investigate. He found emails between her and a male coworker. There were hints at "business" trips she had told Larry she was going on but they were trips with this coworker, non-work related. Larry was devastated when he called to tell me his findings.
He and his brother hired a PI, and that is when the evidence began to mount. She was rendezvousing with this guy often, mostly during work hours. By time Labor Day rolled around Larry was ready to confront her. He was being advised not to, to let the noose tighten more around her neck. He talked to my W and I for a longtime at the Labor Day party, which Liza wasn't even present at. A woman that 2 years prior wouldn't have missed a chance to hang out with us, and she wasn't even at her husband's concert.
That night Larry confronted her. She admitted everything with this new guy, that they were in love and were going to leave their spouses to be together. Larry's marriage effectively ended that night.
The stress of everything took a big toll on Larry. By time Labor Day rolled around his kidneys were starting to fail. By the end of 2006 he was on weekly dialysis. His ankle never would heal properly. And he was starting to have other effects from his diabetes.
As Liza moved forward with the D, her and the new guy bought a house and moved in together. She did end up getting fired as the company the worked for put 2 and 2 together related to the two of them missing so much work, and then getting married. By summer of 2007 the D was final, Larry was in his own apartment and Liza and the kids were with the new guy in their house.
Larry started a friendship with a woman at church and Liza was not pleased. Suddenly she had a "I don't want him but I don't want him to be with anyone else attitude". She began making Larry's life miserable related to the kids. Larry loved his kids, but remember, he couldn't drive. She refused to bring them over so he would have to go visit at her house, but he had to find a ride to do it. Luckily his friends from church were very good to him and though he had to bow to other people's schedule he would get to see his kids regularly.
Liza however continued to make things difficult. One of the kids was having a concert at school. Larry got a ride to it, but the stress of dealing with Liza got to him that night and he ended up collapsing at the concert and getting rushed to the hospital where he went in to ICU in a coma.
His female church friend was there as much as she could in the few days he was in ICU. Including the night Liza showed up. Liza ended up beating this poor women to a bloody pulp. When the hospital staff found her, they put the hospital on lockdown and security began looking for Liza. They never found her, she must have already left.
Larry never came out of the coma. (Typing that causes tears to well up in my eyes.) I honestly believe the stress of Liza's affair, leaving him, the D and her behavior afterward are what killed Larry. We miss Larry very much to this very day. Just this morning I was singing a song his quartet used to sing and my W asked me to stop, it made her too sad.
Liza and my wife do not talk. After Larry's death my W wrote her a long letter confronting her on several things she did. The theme of the letter was "this isn't you Liza! This isn't the Liza I knew and loved." She never got a response. That year at Christmas the Christmas card we sent her came back "Return to Sender". We haven't spoken to Liza since New Years 2006.
The point of this long diatribe is that this stuff has a real capacity to end lives. War of the Roses highlighted that in a comical, satirical way. But you don't have to look to far to see where this stuff can have serious health effects, and can cause one with compromised health to die. Larry lived about a year after his discovery of Liza infidelity. And while the A didn't kill him, Liza's spitefulness (probably rooted in her own guilt), I believe, did.
So success to me in this stuff is seeing everyone come out the other side, no matter the outcome, healthy. Both mentally and physically.
Jim, if my husband stops sending money I will have to file for divorce. There are also temporary support orders that can be requested as I understand. I'll soon be working though, and I can involve my husband's family if it reaches the point where he stops supporting my daughter and I. My closest two friends have offered financial support if needed. Therefore I believe I could survive in the short-term. I don't believe my husband will stop sending money though. He's done some bad things but I don't think he'll drop us that way. He may try to negotiate the amount we need each month but that's fine for the time being.
Steve85, I read the story and that is so sad. It's hard to believe that happened in real life to your own friends. It's a tragedy. How can Liza go from a good church-going lady to living a life of selfishness and sin? It's so hard to trust anyone in this world when this happens.
I've had this same fear about the health consequences. I was diagnosed with erosive gastritis two months after my husband left (the lining of my stomach was inflamed and eroded). My husband has said many times he gets chest pain when he talks to me. The lack of sleep, rapid weight loss, emotional turmoil...all those things take their toll. When it happens for years and years I can see how people develop chronic conditions. I was, and am probably still, at risk of ulcers that bleed and this can be fatal. I've also had a heart arrhythmia that is triggered by stress. I'm still debating whether to take SSRI's.
Yes I agree with your definition of reconciliation.
If you don't mind, since you talk about being Christian and going to Church, can you please read my earlier thread and comment on what the Christian counselor told me? How did you choose DB when you probably have access to explicitly Christian marriage resources?
Jim, if my husband stops sending money I will have to file for divorce. There are also temporary support orders that can be requested as I understand. I'll soon be working though, and I can involve my husband's family if it reaches the point where he stops supporting my daughter and I. My closest two friends have offered financial support if needed. Therefore I believe I could survive in the short-term. I don't believe my husband will stop sending money though. He's done some bad things but I don't think he'll drop us that way. He may try to negotiate the amount we need each month but that's fine for the time being.
Steve85, I read the story and that is so sad. It's hard to believe that happened in real life to your own friends. It's a tragedy. How can Liza go from a good church-going lady to living a life of selfishness and sin? It's so hard to trust anyone in this world when this happens.
I've had this same fear about the health consequences. I was diagnosed with erosive gastritis two months after my husband left (the lining of my stomach was inflamed and eroded). My husband has said many times he gets chest pain when he talks to me. The lack of sleep, rapid weight loss, emotional turmoil...all those things take their toll. When it happens for years and years I can see how people develop chronic conditions. I was, and am probably still, at risk of ulcers that bleed and this can be fatal. I've also had a heart arrhythmia that is triggered by stress. I'm still debating whether to take SSRI's.
Yes I agree with your definition of reconciliation.
If you don't mind, since you talk about being Christian and going to Church, can you please read my earlier thread and comment on what the Christian counselor told me? How did you choose DB when you probably have access to explicitly Christian marriage resources?
I tried to find where you mentioned the Christian counselor but had no luck. Can you repeat what it is the counselor said?
As far as my sitch and Christian marriage resources, our MC is a Christian based MC. But please remember, my wife was in full rebellion. She was even rebelling against her faith. She had started to withdraw and grow distant with our church friends.
Also, no one at church knows about our sitch. In fact, no one that knows us knows. Very early on in my reading I found information that said it was best not to tell people about our problems. SO I adhered to that.
One of the reasons given was because it makes it that much harder for the WAS/WS to come back. It is hard enough when they feel like they have to overcome things with you, but throw in strained relationships with relatives and friends and it could be too much to overcome.
That was a big reason I didn't go to anyone at church with the sitch. If she quit going to church I felt our chances at R were slimmer. I know her, and having to face people at church that knew what she had done and knew our sitch would have made her not want to go, and never want to come back. We are very involved in our congregation, and we are both highly respected. For her to lose that could have had devastating consequences for any chance of R.
However, even then I don't see DBing as being contrary to Christianity. AS/WS aren't really adhering to Biblical teachings on marriage. So trying to apply Biblical teachings to WAS/WSs is probably not going to work in the vast majority of cases. As I relayed in my current thread, I used a combination of many techniques to get us to where we are today, DB being part of that equation.
Steve, sorry that post about the Christian counselor must be further back than I realized. I'm in a bit of a rush at the moment but I'll paste it here later. That sounds like the right thing to not involve the church. Your approach of blending techniques is interesting to me - I've done that to some extent. As I've suggested in some other posts, I think it's worth trying a few things to see what works and what doesn't. Not switching approaches completely but throwing in a different twist here-and-there to see if it makes you or your spouse react more positively or make any progress.
Next Friday I will turn 40. I have mixed feelings about. I'm not happy about it. I wish I was turning 30 again. On the other hand I'm thankful to be alive because six months ago my health was so bad I couldn't even drink water without severe pain. I did the last diagnostic medical test I needed to do yesterday to rule out two rare conditions. If it comes back negative then it seems I have a chronic condition (erosive gastritis) that I need to manage but the doctors say I should be ok. So I guess turning 40 and being alive, working towards better health, is better than the unlikely alternative of having had something worse that could have killed me.
I've been trying to read and respond to as many posts here as possible. For some reason I still feel different than most people here though. I still miss my husband. When I read Louise's post about her husband's manic behavior I don't know if my husband is mentally ill. He has ADHD that's never been treated and he's followed the same cycle now three times in recent years (first time was brief and he didn't leave) of depression followed by euphoria that always involves having an affair, going to the gym everyday, spending money wrecklessly, and acting completely against his upbringing, religion, and morals. Then the affair ends, he comes back to reality, is sorry, and wants to fix things. Except this past time, before he left the second time, I punished him so badly that I think it pushed him back into depression and he gave up. I don't know. Yes, he's a bad person, but I wonder how much of it is him choosing to be bad and how much is driven by a chemical imbalance that needs to be treated with medication.
Reading about Larry and Liza, and then EastTN's loss, I don't want to do anything that would put anyone's life at risk. I can't stop or control my husband's behavior, but I'm trying to learn to communicate in a way that empowers us both. It's so hard. Our story isn't over yet because the divorce appears to be on hold....or so it seems. Who knows, maybe the papers will come next week.
All, I finally got to go to the house to gather my stuff on Saturday night. My husband wasn't particularly nice. There is some high tech electronic lock on the door and security system now so apparently even if I had wanted to go alone it wouldn't have been possible. My husband showed my daughter and I around and the place looks just beautiful now that the renovations are almost done (it's a new house but he ripped out the interior and started over).
It was difficult to see that's where I could be living and to imagine how wonderful and perfect life would be if we could be together there as a family. On the way out, my daughter asked in her innocent voice, "Daddy, why aren't we allowed to live in this house?" My husband said, "I'm going to come and live in your new city too." He didn't really answer her question, but he told me that night he's going to sell the house and move to our city. I don't know when that'll happen and I don't know how I feel about that. I thought I was moving on, starting over far away, and now my husband will be there too.
It's nice if my husband wants to be close to our daughter. It would be better for all of us to be together in the same city. My husband's family also lives near that city so perhaps he feels he should be closer to them. Or maybe he realizes that living alone in a huge mansion doesn't make sense.
In any case, I couldn't help it. I was in tears as we got in the care after hearing my daughter's question and after seeing the house again. Ten years ago we dreamed to reach this point of having a stable life with a house and child and now my husband threw it all away.
Yesterday it was my daughter's birthday party. My husband came but he looked miserable and was unengaged. He was staring at his phone most of the time and wouldn't speak to me. When I would try to approach him he'd give me an angry look and then he left early.
Then today we had the moving truck come and I needed some extra money and my husband was so mad that he had to send more.
This was after things had gone well for a while. I think our visit to the house did something to my husband. He was obviously stressed or felt guilty or was just annoyed by it.
Tomorrow night or Wednesday morning my daughter and I will leave. My husband is supposed to meet us at our new place on Friday morning. We'll see how he acts then, but if it's not good then I'll ask him to leave.
I did learn that both my daughter's teach and my gastroenterologist (who is also my husband's friend) have talked with my husband about what's happening. I wonder if either of them persuaded him to hold off on the divorce?
The only good thing I found at the house is there's no sign of another woman living there. I could tell by how stuff was thrown all around that it was just my husband there...it would be especially cruel to find that another woman was living in our house. I'm glad that it's most likely not the case. There's already enough to be upset about.
I have so many mixed feelings about my husband's plans and about what will happen in the next year or two. I have one special friend who keeps calling or writing every day trying to help and that person will visit when I get to the new city this weekend. At my daughter's party I also felt a lot of sympathy and support from my friends there. This forum is great because we're all going through similar situations but real life support is also invaluable.
Nicole, I think you nailed it with the guess of him feeling guilty. As soon as I read what your D asked him, and then his actions at her birthday party I think it triggered guilt. My guess is that he would love to say "stay, don't go, we'll live in the house and work on R", but that he feels that it is too late? I hesitate to say that since I don't want you to act on it, but it does seem like he is having a war inside of himself.
My wife was the most depressed and the saddest after BD when she started having second thoughts about what she was doing. I could see the war going on inside of her and the outward showing was depression and sadness. Once she came through it she was much more invested in the MR again, though a piece of her still wasn't ready to give up the fantasy.
10 and half years later we are still heartbroken about Larry. I truly believe he would still be here today if Liza hadn't already put stress on to his already fragile health.
And your D's question to your husband breaks my heart. Don't these WASs realize or care what they are doing to the kids? It really struck me when MWD talked about being an adult and still being sad that her parents marriage ended. It ALWAYS has an affect on the kids no matter what people want to think or believe.
So H is feeling guilty, and finding life isn't the bowl of cherries he thought it would be? Fu$% him. Has his behavior changed at all? No? Fu$% him. Was he engaged with your daughter at her birthday party? No? Fu$% him. He was angry you need more money for the moving company? Fu$% him. He's meeting you in the new city on Friday? So what? Is that supposed to make up for his affair, and moving out? Fu$% him. Tell him you don't want him there on Friday, and you don't want him moving to your new city. Get away from this jackass as soon as you can.
You don't need him. You are going to be so much better off without him. Detach, detach, detach.
(sorry if this was a little harsh)
(((hugs)))
Steve, I feel it's optimistic to think my husband feels guilty but maybe he does. Maybe just regarding our daughter. He's probably trying to rationalize it by saying to himself that I was a bad wife, that I didn't give him the freedom he wanted, punished him too much, etc.. and he's angry at me. There's been no indication he's interested in reconciling but for almost a month we had been getting along well, laughing together, and talking normally. I was happy about that because it gives our daughter a better sense of security when she see's her parents getting along. It helps me too because I felt more at ease.
Jim, yeah, my husband can no longer get a free pass. I still think we're probably more of a burden and annoyance to my husband but perhaps his life also isn't the fantasy he thought it'd be living alone in our dream house and having a 26 year old carefree girlfriend with whom to party without any commitment. He must be getting a little taste of reality. I think it'll be a while until he actually moves near us. It's better in a logistical sense to have him near our daughter but not better for me. The only consolation is the city where we're going is kind of my territory, where I have a large network of very respected and senior friends from my husband's country. There's little chance he can get a new job there without interacting with them. They all helped him and gave him recommendations in the past. I won't give them all the details about what happened, but I'll be honest in telling them it was my husband's decision to leave. That will look bad for him. It's a very bad thing in their culture to abandon your wife and kids even if you help financially. So hopefully I have the upper hand in where we're going. At the same time I want my husband to be successful because I want our daughter to have the best father possible. I want to have a good relationship with him even if we're divorced because that's what's best for our daughter. And if he ever wishes to reconcile, which is something I can't really imagine, this time he'll have to do the hard work and get professional help and it'll take a long time before we could try again. I'd love that, but I know if I let him come back easily the same thing will happen again.
It would be easier in a way to write off my husband and just never deal with him again, but we have a beautiful innocent child and I have to try to figure out the best way for us to get through this.
Steve, I feel it's optimistic to think my husband feels guilty but maybe he does. Maybe just regarding our daughter. He's probably trying to rationalize it by saying to himself that I was a bad wife, that I didn't give him the freedom he wanted, punished him too much, etc.. and he's angry at me. There's been no indication he's interested in reconciling but for almost a month we had been getting along well, laughing together, and talking normally. I was happy about that because it gives our daughter a better sense of security when she see's her parents getting along. It helps me too because I felt more at ease.
For my W and I this is how we started moving toward R. I think I've mentioned that in February we went to a marriage retreat. I also mentioned that at the retreat, at lunch on the last day, she rebelled against what she was hearing (and I think feeling too). And that was that marriage is a commitment for life. Messages similar to marrige is being married to the right person, it is doing right by the person you married. Etc.
At lunch that day she made a comment about me chatting with a woman online. I wasn't, and she said it flippantly. And then when I just shook my head and smiled, she came back with "It would be OK if you were." This set me off and the rest of the lunch was tense and we discussed our MR. She was still feeling the tug of wanting out but she was also feeling that not only should she say, but also that she was starting to want to stay.
We went back to the retreat, and I could feel the tension. But during one of the presentations I reached over and took her hand. Then later I put my arm around her. She put her hand on my knee. That night we went out for dinner and had a great time. She was affectionate (laying her head on my shoulder as we waited for a table), holding my hand, etc.
The next day we left to come home, and we had a great time on the 8 hour drive (other than discovering someone had broken into our trunk and stole thousands of dollars in camera equipment (she is a photographer)). We laughed, we joked, we sang to songs. She played newer songs that she liked for me. It was fun, light, free of MR talk, and just really a great time. We continued this after we got home. In fact, in our next MC session she told the counselor that as we had fun together and laughed and had fun conversation that she was moving towards wanting to stay in the MR.
I really believe it started with the fun, frivolous conversation, and reconnecting on a level that you do when you are first dating. Again, I don't know your H or his thinking, but based on your saying you were enjoying each other's company, and then your D's question and his reaction, it seems like he is rebelling against feelings of wanting to work on the MR.
First paragraph should read: Messages similar to marriage is NOT being married to the right person, it is doing right by the person you married.
Hi Everyone,
I moved and I'm now in my new apartment in a new state far away from my husband. I don't want to bore you with all the many details of the past week, but we arrived here last Friday and my husband met us upon arrival. He didn't do much while the movers were moving everything. We had lunch together with our daughter but there wasn't much conversation. My husband was on his phone most of the time. He then left after two hours at our place to return to his family who lives nearby. Our daughter was crying and begging him to stay as he was leaving but he left anyway. I said a few mean things to him about leaving his daughter when she's crying and I later apologized but it's really hard to watch our daughter suffer. He also knew it was my 40th birthday that day and didn't say happy birthday. His coming just made our day much worse as I expected.
My husband returned the next day and brought us a huge, expensive new TV. My initial reaction for the first two minutes was "please can you return this? A TV isn't the priority right now when we have so many other expenses and I'm not working yet...." Then I realized my husband wanted to give us this as a gift and he was proud of it so I thanked him and tried to show appreciation. He left and returned with a TV stand that he spent two hours putting together. Then he set up some other stuff in our apartment. I can't figure out him out...the day before he did nothing. Then the next day he wanted to be helpful. Towards the end of the second day our daughter did something funny and I looked at my husband and smiled and he said "don't look at me and smile, I don't like it." I ignore him and was unpacking in another room and he came after a while asking me how much money I have. I told him if he can't speak to me respectfully I'm not speaking to him. He said "I'm sorry but it annoys me when you do that."
My husband soon left but he called that night and said he sent a decent sum of money for anything we need. Then we barely talked the last few days because I had visitors from out-of-state and had fun with them.
Today my husband called and asked if we have enough money. He said if I need an iron (which I had forgotten to pack) he'll order me a good one. He also said he's working on coming back for a visit and will soon let me know when it'll be.
I know everyone will say to just detach, which is what I've been doing and thankfully most days for the next few weeks are booked with meetings, activities, events, etc... It helps to be close to everyone again.
On Monday I received a message from my husband saying, "I tried to call many times but there is no answer. Are you there?" I responded saying we were out all day and busy. He responded and said he just wanted to say hi to our daughter.
I'm doing a better job with DB now that I'm here, but I struggle to understand how to interpret my husband's words and actions. Why is he so mean and yet he buys us gifts and sends extra money?
I assume my husband feels guilty. Does that sound right? He hasn't expressed any interest in reconciling, so I assume he just feels guilty for leaving and wants to make sure we're ok. I can only imagine he wants to feel less guilty so he can enjoy his freedom more. Is that how others would read this?
Steve, it's so nice to hear how you and your wife were able to re-connect without talking about the relationship. This is where I failed two years ago with my husband. He left the first time and came back begging to work things out but all I could focus on, or talk about, was how we're going to fix the marriage, when we'd fix it, and I'd continually punish him and act sarcastic about his leaving. I wish I'd tried your strategy of just letting things happen naturally. Despite the fact that I should have perhaps just let my husband go back then, I think we'd be in a totally different place now if I had just let things go and stopped being so intent on fixing everything.
I think we'd be in a totally different place now if I had just let things go and stopped being so intent on fixing everything.
Nicole - STOP IT!!!! This is a man who said he wished your daughter had never been born!!!! The marriage would not have been saved if only you did things this way or that - the problem is in HIM!!! He's not a good man ( no good man would say that about his own child no matter how exasperated).
You didn't break him and you can't fix him. If he wants to give you stuff out of guilt, take it - don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
Keep moving forward, enjoy your friends, find a great job and let go of him.
Hi Everyone,
I moved and I'm now in my new apartment in a new state far away from my husband. I don't want to bore you with all the many details of the past week, but we arrived here last Friday and my husband met us upon arrival. He didn't do much while the movers were moving everything. We had lunch together with our daughter but there wasn't much conversation. My husband was on his phone most of the time. He then left after two hours at our place to return to his family who lives nearby. Our daughter was crying and begging him to stay as he was leaving but he left anyway. I said a few mean things to him about leaving his daughter when she's crying and I later apologized but it's really hard to watch our daughter suffer. He also knew it was my 40th birthday that day and didn't say happy birthday. His coming just made our day much worse as I expected.
My husband returned the next day and brought us a huge, expensive new TV. My initial reaction for the first two minutes was "please can you return this? A TV isn't the priority right now when we have so many other expenses and I'm not working yet...." Then I realized my husband wanted to give us this as a gift and he was proud of it so I thanked him and tried to show appreciation. He left and returned with a TV stand that he spent two hours putting together. Then he set up some other stuff in our apartment. I can't figure out him out...the day before he did nothing. Then the next day he wanted to be helpful. Towards the end of the second day our daughter did something funny and I looked at my husband and smiled and he said "don't look at me and smile, I don't like it." I ignore him and was unpacking in another room and he came after a while asking me how much money I have. I told him if he can't speak to me respectfully I'm not speaking to him. He said "I'm sorry but it annoys me when you do that."
My husband soon left but he called that night and said he sent a decent sum of money for anything we need. Then we barely talked the last few days because I had visitors from out-of-state and had fun with them.
Today my husband called and asked if we have enough money. He said if I need an iron (which I had forgotten to pack) he'll order me a good one. He also said he's working on coming back for a visit and will soon let me know when it'll be.
I know everyone will say to just detach, which is what I've been doing and thankfully most days for the next few weeks are booked with meetings, activities, events, etc... It helps to be close to everyone again.
On Monday I received a message from my husband saying, "I tried to call many times but there is no answer. Are you there?" I responded saying we were out all day and busy. He responded and said he just wanted to say hi to our daughter.
I'm doing a better job with DB now that I'm here, but I struggle to understand how to interpret my husband's words and actions. Why is he so mean and yet he buys us gifts and sends extra money?
I assume my husband feels guilty. Does that sound right? He hasn't expressed any interest in reconciling, so I assume he just feels guilty for leaving and wants to make sure we're ok. I can only imagine he wants to feel less guilty so he can enjoy his freedom more. Is that how others would read this?
Steve, it's so nice to hear how you and your wife were able to re-connect without talking about the relationship. This is where I failed two years ago with my husband. He left the first time and came back begging to work things out but all I could focus on, or talk about, was how we're going to fix the marriage, when we'd fix it, and I'd continually punish him and act sarcastic about his leaving. I wish I'd tried your strategy of just letting things happen naturally. Despite the fact that I should have perhaps just let my husband go back then, I think we'd be in a totally different place now if I had just let things go and stopped being so intent on fixing everything.
Nicole, good to hear from you. First of all, Happy Birthday! Hope you had an otherwise good day.
As far as your past mistakes, don't dwell on those. Note them, learn from them, and put them behind you. One thing I absolutely know is that you cannot change the past! I know, I've tried! But seriously, dwelling on what you could have done differently is only good for the learning it provides moving forward. The good news is that no matter what has happened until now, there is always hope for R. Even when it feels and seems least likely. Find ItHurts' recent updates. His wife is now making overtures at getting back together after their D has been final for 4 years!
So there is always hope.
As far as the expensive gifts and the money, likely your husband thinks that this is how you cover for poor behavior. Act badly, use money to fix it. I see this behavior in my FiL. He has a history of behaving badly, and then trying to fix it with money and gifts. My W has struggled with him doing this her entire life. Has your husband ever been in IC? Would he consider it? Based on the history you have shared with us, and his current behavior, it sounds like he could stand to benefit from some therapy.
My W's father is a child of an alcoholic parent. This has caused him to be extremely driven and professionally successful. Much less successful at personal relationships. And he sees his money as his power. Power to get what he wants. Power to control those he wants to control. Power to fix things when he makes mistakes.
Anyway, I will continue to pray for you and for your family. Keep your chin up, you are going to be fine. No matter what happens you will get through. You are a strong person and you will overcome. And you are valuable, not only to those around you but especially to your D!
Dear Nicole,
I just went through your whole story. Hats off to you for having the courage to hang in there, I think your daughter is going to see what a strong woman her mother is and you being a role model to her will form a deep loving connection between the two of you when she grows up.
Sorry I dont know how to help you but to say I have a lot of respect for you to see how much you have endured for the sake of wanting a happy home for your daughter. Karma will catch up with your husband and he will soon see the light of day.
Until then, be happy you have your daughter, if nothing else out of the relationship you at least have a beautiful girl who makes it all worth it
Only a mom can feel this way.
And belated birthday wishes to you, I will have you in my prayers
Happy Birthday Nicole. I'm glad the move is over, and you are now in a city with family and friends nearby. That will do you a world of good.
I think you nailed it; he's buying things out of guilt so he can feel better, but I have no idea what you should do with them.
I hope you will find it easier to detach now that there's some additional distance between you. I like that you responded that you were out and busy all day. Good for you!
KML, I know. I struggle a lot with this issue. It's hard to convince myself that my actions wouldn't have made a difference because I'm ashamed to say I became the abusive, controlling, negative one when my husband returned. I hate who I became. I know the root cause of the problems is my husband, but I have a hard time forgiving myself for how I reacted. Yes, he cheated and left for eight weeks but I think there were more productive, humane ways of dealing with the aftermath. Now it's too late...but I know I have to find a way to let it go.
Steve, my husband was in IC twice. He did well with the first counselor. The one he saw twice last summer, however, seemed to be the who helped him realize he wanted to separate. That upsets me a lot because it's easy for a counselor who meets you twice to encourage someone to leave but I wish it had been a different counselor who was more pro-marriage. That's interesting about your FIL. I really don't want my daughter to have the same experience as your wife growing up. I hope we can change course somehow. Thanks for your prayers.
Arshi, hopefully you saw some similarities between our situations when you read my thread. I wish I could meet someone like you in real life! Thanks for your encouragement. Please keep us posted on what's happening with your husband.
Jim, thanks. I guess we'll keep the gifts but it's very unpredictable what my husband will do next. I'm trying to avoid contacting my husband at all for a while, although I do have to ask him something about the apartment we left behind in our old city. I miss him a lot when I see our old familiar places here in our current city but I know there's not much else I can do except making this move and trying to get established here.
hi Nicole, how are you settling down in the new place? how is your D handling the move?
Arshi, we're doing ok thanks. We're in a newly constructed building and everything is new here so I have severe allergies from all the chemicals, dust, etc.. so I kind of regret choosing this place, but aside from that, we're in a good location and we've been seeing friends every day. I got a six month contract through a friend to work-from-home and a few other consulting jobs that I'll start soon. My daughter is fine except she misses her father and friends. This morning she asked to call my husband and asked "can you please visit me for just one minute today?" He said he can't because he's not here but he'll come soon. I feel so sad for her. She'll start a new school on May 1st and she has anxiety about that. I still wish we'd be back in our old city in our beautiful home with everything stable and secure, which is what every kid deserves, but I'll try to do my best to get my daughter into a routine and will do whatever I can to help her.
This morning she asked to call my husband and asked "can you please visit me for just one minute today?" He said he can't because he's not here but he'll come soon.
this made me tear up, poor baby. Keep her as distracted as possible, take her out and help her play. Eventually you may even be able to make a lot of play dates to keep her occupied. the lesser idle time you both have on your hands the better it will help you keep his memories and thoughts away
Nicole! I just want to give you the biggest hug ever!!!!
You are doing far better than you think you are. I know how hard it is to hear your kid ask those questions. You just make sure you are there for her, always. Show her a strong and independent woman who doesn't take [censored] from a man! You have to teach her that a woman is never a man's doormat or toy, EVER! She will not learn that from her father so you have to show her confidence so she will have it too.
As for the gifts, TAKE WHAT YOU CAN GET. I'm serious. He asked you what you need? You need a good vacuum to get all that dust in the new apartment cleaned up. You need all kinds of things. Sure he is doing it out of guilt. HE SHOULD BE GUILTY. I'm not talking about abusing the offers, but reality is that you DESERVE to get back parts of the life he took away from you.
Having your own place helps tremendously. I'm sorry you had to go back to the house, I know how much that hurts.
Good for you for not letting his bullshit immaturity mess with you! You are going to be so much better off in a year. I promise you, time heals. It does. It's cliche but it's true. There is no timeline but I promise, you will get better each day.
And each day is another opportunity to teach your baby how grow into a strong woman.
You've got this!
Arshi, thankfully we've had non-stop play dates and social activities so my daughter is doing really well aside from anxiety about starting a new school next week.
Joe, thanks so much for your encouragement. I really do appreciate it. Even though we've never met I feel we understand each other well. I'm trying to do as you say. My daughter watches me do everything myself day-after-day. Perhaps when she's older she'll have a few memories and will realize that I struggled to raise her alone but did my best. I do have two excellent consulting jobs now that are in my field and I'm thankful that I took the time to build a strong career before having my daughter since it made it much easier to take time away and then return.
All, my friends here in my current city keep saying that my husband will wake up and return, that he'll be sorry, and that God has better things lined up for me. It's hard to know what to think and how to feel about all these comments.
Get a HEPA rated air filter for your apartment.
Congratulations on getting work lined up so quickly.
Your husband might temporarily show some interest because you've moved out of his control - but just because he wants to keep you on the hook as Plan B doesn't mean he's become the man he should be. Nothing less than a year of individual therapy for him before you should even consider dating him (and he won't do that because he's a selfish jerk who wished his daughter had never been born).
Enjoy your friends, your work, your support group. Don't worry about your H. You did the right thing for you and your daughter.
Nicole
In my view the reason you were reactive was because your boundaries were crossed and you weren't ready to R. Likely he wasn't remorseful enough and maybe didn't atone as you needed.
His A blew up your marriage and put you through hell.
I have no truck with cheaters none, zero.
I had my screaming banshee phase too, it was awful and not good, I believe I have resolved it, although I will need help on it from time to time so it doesn't affect my life. It's quite usual after a spouse has had an A. He blew up your M by having an A and after that you may never trust him. That was also me, something you learn may tell you that you were correct. Entitled peeps stay entitled.
He is in the guiLt phase it may not last for long so use it to advantage.
I am concerned that you are working and living somewhere which might cause you breathing issues. Can you work in a library or coffee shop sometimes?
Extreme self care Nicole, extreme.
It's going to be ok.
V
Nicole, so glad things are going well in your new home. Congrats on getting work so quickly. That will help, both financially, and mentally. You're doing the right thing keeping your daughter busy.
I hope you can do something about the allergens. Otherwise they will make your life miserable.
Also about your apartment - new carpets and paint outgas chemicals. One way to lessen them is to crank up the heat in the apartment on a warm day, then open the windows and use a fan to blow the chemicals out. Stay out of the apartment for the day. Basically baking out the chemicals and speeding up the outgassing process .