Welcome to my 11th thread. We ripped through #10 in record time...
My previous thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2774733&page=1And my sitch in the next post...
My Sitch. Further gory details in my previous threads, of course, but this might save you some trouble:
My sitch, if you haven't been following it:
One Year in.
In a nutshell, my profile is down there at the bottom. After a long period of neglect, definitely classifiable as a "sex-starved marriage", my W began EA with a close friend last October after I had gone to him for help with my M and basically revealed my W's vulnerabilities. There had been warning signs-- she had come to me a couple three times over past two years telling me how sad/lonely/lost/dead-inside she felt, and I pretty much turned it back on her every time, though one time I did ask her "not to leave" when it looked like she was going to. By the time of BD in January, actually when I overheard convo between her and OM talking, it would have been a stretch to say we were even "friends".
I was weak and desperate at first, but within less than two weeks after BD was really doing a great job with GAL's and 180s, and W noticed. Problem was, she was not a WAW but rather a WW, wanting to enjoy the single life, "girls gone wild" lifestyle with her single/divorced/separated friends, particularly her bff, also a WW(curiously enough, married to my own bff). I didn't handle my interactions with her all that well for a few weeks, wavering between "pursuit" and enablement. Finally got buckled down, though, and GALs and 180s really kicked in and W noticed.
Looked like A was going to or had even already died of natural causes... and then something happened. Still dont' know what. A meet up or night out or party or something and it rekindled. W bought a burner phone which I later found out about.
Beginning of June I tell her my boundary that "I wont share her or live in an open marriage". She indicates that cheater phone is gone and she will NC with OM. There is a big blow up night only a week later where she, I and her bff (who, it turns out, is now a good friend of OM and a major enabler my W's A) had too much to drink, said too much, and my W ended up sneaking out after we went home to meet up with bff and OM. She did NOT know I knew about this, and I did not confront her thinking we could "use a reset" based on events. I do put up some surveillance on her and late June, not long before we are to start intensive therapy, I "catch" her in two fairly intimate/emotional encounters with OM.
I go dark for four days during which she pursues me relentlessly. She finally corners me into a talk where she talks about all the things SHE did wrong in our MR that led us to this point... and then I tell her what i know about her and OM. She then takes several steps (without explicitly promising me full transparency or committing fully to working on MR) that lead me to believe she is really "Trying" in her own way. This turns out to be false as of 7/23 when I find out she has purchased a second burner phone and she confesses to fairly regular text and phone contact with OM. I walked off and left her at car that night, slept in separate BR, etc. and pretty much "go dark", wont even talk to her about it. She keeps after me by phone and text for two days, eventually corners me into a convo, says tearfully that she is sorry she hurt me, that she had been "working up to" cold-turkey no contact with OM (a self-contradiction, yes) and that she had called OM to break it off and destroyed her extra phone and that she wanted to work on trying to "figure us out." I tell her that it's not going to be that easy, that I am not sure that I can or should trust her and not sure that I want to try to work things out any more.
A week later (8/1, I think), I confront OM and, in an ugly exchange, tell him I know everything and to stay away from my wife and family. While somewhat cathartic for me on some level, this brings back a lot of pain and hurtful feelings/memories for both me and W. We talk about it and she is still bothered by thought that she has "hurt" OM and that he may have been further "hurt" by my confrontation. She also said she is "not sure" what she wants to do about us. I listen but say little. That weekend, we talk again, and I reiterate that "maybe we need some time on our own" and she says (for what seems like the 20th time) that she is tired of all the "pain" and "negativity" and wishes we could just push the "reset" button and let "Monday be Monday and Tuesday by Tuesday without all the painful relationship talk." She also thinks we should just try to "be in the moment" and "try to have fun". I tell her that I am not willing to keep living with the uncertainty, that I am still not certain I can trust her, and that if she wanted to, as she said, "work on figuring us out" I would need some things, including solid assurances the OM was "gone" and to know that she was committed to the process and that we'd get professional help.
At that point, she starts behaving in exemplary fashion. She pretty much doesn't leave the house unless its with me, is letting me track her phone, did not even ask to see her bff , and started coming by one of my GAL hangouts where I was going once a week after work. After the discovery of second burner phone, we slept apart for a while but eventually she joined me in 2nd BR and we have been "sleeping" (that's all, sadly) together ever since.
We have progressively been doing more and more things socially, and generally having a lot of fun, and she has been gradually warming up to me, evidenced mainly by increased comfort with me, increasing willingness to touch and be touched by me, and inviting me to do some things she used to do alone. Unfortunately, though, we are still kind of in a limbo where she is not as eager to go rehashing or working through the pain we caused each other, and would prefer to just go out and "have fun" and see if "lightning can strike" and she can get those romantic, intimate feelings back. She has more recently said in counseling that she understands that we are going to have to be more deliberate and "just do it" if we are to get that intimate component back. MC assigned us some reading to do as well as some self-exploration exercises, and we were supposed to circle back with her in a week or two. However, life happened and we didn't get back with MC until six weeks after that intensive.
W says that everything now between us is as good as or better than its ever been, except for that one missing piece (sex/intimacy-- yes, a big piece). She has agreed to go continue counseling on a more regular basis, that it "helps" and that things always "seem better" right after our sessions. While she has several times mentioned IC, which we both agree is likely a must for full reconciliation, she has not yet pulled the trigger on that and has shown varying degrees of commitment to it. There have been similar ups and downs with the joint counselling-- sometimes seeming very energetic and taking the initiative on the projects/work MC gives us, but sometimes letting it lapse-- although she has in general been much more engaged with that than with the IC. Very recently, about a week ago (Early Jan 2018), I sat her down after she had had a late night at work and told her there were some things I needed to be able to continue: Namely, that we, both of us, take the advice given us by our MC and enter IC as well, and that she commit to working on a "full and complete" marriage--including the intimacy component-- told her i would not live in half a marriage. This did not go great, i was a bit upset, and W ended up that way too, saying she had been doing alot, and interpreting what i said as meaning i needed a sexual relationship RIGHT NOW. She was upset that, she said, she had increasingly been "letting me in", including to places and events she had shut me out, that she had been feeling increasingly close to me (this at least seemed true-- we had been becoming gradually but noticeably physically and emotionally closer) and that that talk upset her. I later clarified that i did not need sex "right now" but that i needed to know that we were working towards a relationship that included that.
MC, for her part, has said we were going to have to a)work through some of our individual issues in IC 2) Do some work on forgiveness and trust and processing the hurts we had caused each other and 3) Get comfortable with the idea of physical intimacy between us which at times is kind of awkward and weird under the circumstances. Both MC and DB coach's suggestions basically amount to "just do it" (not necessarily sex, but any physical contact--generally starting small, lighter touches, progressing to more intimate.) W agreed that 1 and 2 were necessary, and is coming around about 3, but admits it feels awkward and weird. We've had an increasing number of of really, really good, fun spontaneous nights, including a fair amount of physical contact, hugs, us falling asleep holding each other.
An incident that bears mentioning-- in October, she experienced a set-back/pull-back. She became quieter, withdrawn, kind of moody and sullen, and definitely less warm and friendly. This period came right after her losing a close friend from college to a sudden heart attack, followed closely by toxic bff calling her from OM's bar with OM and crew in attendance to "say hi" to her. On the call, she was in tears, but admitted she "really wanted to be there" (she does not know I know about this convo.) The night of the afternoon she had that convo was our really good night out where she started out sad and quiet but really livened up by end of evening (she even threw out a couple of playful sexual innuendos) and we fell asleep in each others arms. Other than that, though, the month after that time (November) was generally stagnant, maybe even kind of a downswing. She had bounced back quite a bit from that setback, though she still has "down" spells.
I am not monitoring her regularly, though I was spot checking from time to time. I've even stopped doing that now, though last check probably a month and a half ago showed her driving by OM's old hangout... but she did not stop or go in or. And, near as I can tell, has not contacted him in any way recently.
Her bff is still a potential problem/hurdle, but bff is a lifelong friend and someone who, despite bff's very questionable lifestyle morals and decisionmaking, my W trusts... probably more than anyone including myself, and bff is definitely preaching the positives of divorce, single-hood, and "choosing you" (i.e. selfishness). She recently "reconnected" with bff (who lives an hour away but journeys here weekly for work) after about a month of layoff, and I have consented to her visiting the one time (where she to all appearances behaved herself). BFF clearly went way over the line though with the intentional call from the OM's bar to try to entice my W to come out and meet her and OM (my W declined, but admitted she "really wanted to" and then also declined a dinner invite from bff for later that night and then again the following day... but she definitely spent some time in a funk afterwards, and again for an evening after reading some news about OM's son.) W has also turned down some of bff's other overtures that i know of, most notably to dine with bff and bff's AP.
In early December, I found out that... BFF IS DEFINITELY MOVING TO FLA (1000 miles away) when her D is final!!!! This definitely wont hurt my wife's recovery. This was supposed to happen in January but apparently has now been delayed until June (Drat.)
For my part, and GAL, Feels like I've actually made a lot of progress personally, even if my M is not. Some of that has stagnated as I have made more time to "be around" my W while she is going through withdrawals from the OM/A, because I suffered a chest injury a few weeks back, and because I have felt funny about going out "on my own" when she is intentionally NOT doing so. Since Christmas, however, I have made the time to go out a few times with friends, even without W.
In mid December, things turned a bit weird over a drunken kiss we "shared", and about her visit to a department store near OM's hangout. The details of that are extensive, and very pertinent my present sitch, and are detailed in my 8th thread which escalated ridiculously fast due to many many people chiming in with a number of insightful and thoughtful posts. In sum, it led to me questioning MY commitment to this process due to W's response (or lack thereof) to the kiss, her take on the likelihood of us getting physical ever again (not very), and my memory of her and OM in the not too distant past discussing in some detail how they were going to do that very thing. (She REALLY wants to live here, with me knowing she wanted and was willing to get it on with the OM, and at the same time telling me that that aint gonna happen with us? I tend to get madder every second i think about it.) Her sometimes shaky commitment to the process of MC and reconcilliation is also troublesome, and led to the talk mentioned above, but W seems to believe she is "committed" to this process
That shaky commitment somewhat carried over to my previous twothreads including the holidays which were... good. W did not have much if any of her usual holiday blues, spent a bunch of time doing family and holiday stuff, celebrating, etc., was very open and active and eager regarding our trip to see her folks and mine out of state, whereas previously in the fall she had seemed very reluctant and hesitant about that. We definitely warmed up a bit during the holidays themselves, and she was becoming more receptive to touch and spending time in bed closer to or holding each other.
That's about it. i was having some enlightening and detailed exchanges with Sandi2 at the end of my previous thread which no doubt would help provide some important context for my sitch, if you are interested in looking. Otherwise, we are to resume MC tomorrow for a 1 hour session, again in a week, and, then, at W's suggestion (how about that?) an intensive 2 hour plus 2 hour day three weeks hence in the MC's office (the shorter sessions we usually do via skype.) I have told W i expect us to enter into IC as well, and MC has inicated that she (MC) is going to bring this up in our next session but that, at the end of the day, W has to make the decision to do it.
Has your W ever done individual IC before herself? I don't remember that from your threads, so if you mentioned it, sorry. I know I was terrified of going by myself, and really had to force myself to get started, and had family and friends on standby to get me there if I felt I couldn't do it myself.
Perhaps offering to go with her and sit in the waiting room, maybe go out afterwards for something she likes (special dinner, dancing, what ever) might help. I wouldn't offer the special thing before hand, but do it afterwards as a fun way to recover from the first IC session. I only made it in by myself because of the fear and panic of losing my wife and family. I had tried to go before several times over the years and failed to pull the trigger on going.
Just a thought about the IC.
Beyond that, stay strong and patient. Smooth road and all that. It seems like progress is being made. That's not nothing!
Hey Jim, I just wanted to let you know that I have not forgotten about you. In fact, I spent the better part of the day writing out a post. I think I broke my record, and probably everyone's record, for lengthy posts. It was so long, it wore me out just proof reading it.
Anyway, I'll have to seriously cut it down, or just start over. I will try to do better tomorrow.
Hey Jim, I just wanted to let you know that I have not forgotten about you. In fact, I spent the better part of the day writing out a post. I think I broke my record, and probably everyone's record, for lengthy posts. It was so long, it wore me out just proof reading it. blush
Anyway, I'll have to seriously cut it down, or just start over. I will try to do better tomorrow.
Hey Sandi, np. Thanks again for taking the time... I know you are in demand around here!
Jim, whatever happened with last Friday when W's BFF was supposed to join y'all?
Jim, whatever happened with last Friday when W's BFF was supposed to join y'all?
Mostly uneventful. W had sort of insinuated without asking directly that she would like to invite bff and i had sort of insinuated that we all knew the score and were adults and it was up to her. I figured bff would decline. She (bff) sorta kinda called my bluff. When texted me that I could come pick her up to go out from restaurant she was at with bff, I ubered over to get her, and bff was still there. I was cordial to bff and my usual charming, witty self to W. Bff hung with us for about 15 to 20 mins and then left on her own to go home (which worried W a little because they had had a couple of drinks--I offered to call her an uber but she said "no im okay"). She (bff) even gave me hug when she left (wasn't that sweet of her? I felt like Fredo in "The Godfather" getting the hug and kiss before he got whacked.) No substantive conversation, all chitchat. Bff at one point tried to turn the convo toward her and her H's (my own bf) pending D, and I was like "nope, not talking about that!" which bff took in stride.
Rest of the evening was a fairly typical recent one for W and I-- saw a band, had a couple of drinks, lots of laughs and talking, with my arm around her loosely or legs touching under the table. The band asked us to come up and sing with them once, which was cool.
Wednesday's MC session not very noteworthy, either. MC and I both pushed the IC issue with W, MC very persuasively relating it to a lot of the things W was saying, and W seemed somewhat persuaded-- plan is to work some IC into our intensive day-long session on 2/21. W is still "all over the place" emotionally. Some days she "feels really close to me" and other days she wonders where we are going. Some days she really likes how attentive I am and our frequent communication and interaction and then other days she wonders if its just because im checking up on her and want to "know if she's there"-- she's still not used to us being so close after so many years of... not that. And her thoughts are constantly changing, she says. One day she'll have a thought and then the next day a completely different one or she'll see her yesterday thought and say "what was I thinking that doesn't make sense." She didn't elaborate but MC said that's the exact kind of thing that would be good fodder for IC. She said again it frustrates her a little when I am upset like I was last week when she was late getting back from work and had her wrong turn, or when my buttons get easily pushed when she wants to see her girlfriends, but she understands that that's on her and that she "did it to herself."
That's good that there will be some IC in the intensive sessions. Being able to say things you wouldn't say in front of your H or W can be very helpful, and let you work through them. As I'm sure you're well aware. I'm rooting for you guys.
To speak to what Sandi said regarding men in the more traditional role and being the pursuers and the "man" so to speak, I can say it is very true. And I am a liberated woman, lol. It seems as if you let her do most of the chasing and were the submissive one and then everything kind of ceased. I, personally, have been on my own since young. Paid my bills, worked, and then after divorce did everything on my own. I make all the decisions. I handled the bills, phone calls, ect. in the marriage. I don't "need" a man. But I very much appreciate a man who knows I can handles things, but still is the "man" in the relationship. Pursues me, is decisive, initiates. Makes plans. Fixes things. Carries heavy stuff. There has to be some passion.
I have an idea, and if anyone thinks I am off on this, please chime in. You need to change things up. The same bar/band thing every weekend. Take a break from that. Take the initiative and book a fancy resturaunt. Tell her to be ready at a certain time. Heck, even pick out an outfit for her. Get a limo with champagne. DO something where you take control, make her feel special, it's just the two of you without big crowds and music. Table the heavy relationship talk.
Do something different.
You need to change things up.
Yeah, in some ways I agree. I am decisive/adept/etc in most of those areas with her-- fixing things, moving things, plans stuff for the family and for us, but not yet so much in romance, although i conduct myself confidently in the things we DO do.
Only thing is I don't want to come on too strong on the romance too soon... but is that just being stupid at this point? When we were dating I would have (and did do) all of those kinds of things-- always coming up with different things to do, romantic little getaways, etc. But... things are different now(?) This is really the tightrope I am walking here. If this were ANY OTHER GIRL...I'd be doing things differently. But maybe I shouldn't be approaching it that way? IDK.
Here's a little tidbit and maybe it is misleading as it is from the "Devil's mouth" (her bff), but... way back in September (and we were not even quite 2 months in to "no contact" and A recovery, etc, and she and definitely bff had had the "this outside relationship should not be an impediment to figuring things out with your M" mindset), bff had told her shortly before our own anniversary when I had had talk with W about not feeling comfortable at that point "celebrating" the date even as I wanted us to recognize it (this was all in one of my threads) that: "Well, at the point you guys are at in the process, he should have had something planned..." Now, maybe that's just bff rabble rousing against me. And maybe it's just stupid because no way was our timeline that far along at that point (or maybe W thought it was or should be?) but maybe a grain of truth there as well.
I know she wants that... as an abstraction. But would me making that move at this point be a positive or negative?
Valentines Day coming up... maybe for that(?) I had been going to give her a weekend away at a ski lodge for V-Day, but hadn't thought about what to actually do on the day, go out or whatever. Be interested in takes, here.
Also, Sandi2, if you're out there, sounded like you had plenty to say... I am still eager to hear!
HJ
I am also eager to hear what Sandi has to say.
But the way I see it, is you ARE dating her again. You are pretty much back to where you were before the A. So, if you don't do things differently, you'll be here forever. And quite frankly, that is probably why she sees everything as "ok" or working on the M because you are getting back to exactly where you were before the A. Her commitment feels strong because you are exactly where you were for many many years. See what I am saying?
And if you do this date, there is no getting laid on the big first date. Perhaps a kiss. NO pressure for sex. But I think you need to take your W out on a real date, not to your local watering hole every weekend like you would with your buddies. Yes, you both may enjoy it, but you enjoy it in the friend zone.
Maybe my idea was to extreme for now, but something has to be done differently, as if she was a new woman you were dating.
But I think you need to take your W out on a real date, not to your local watering hole every weekend like you would with your buddies. Yes, you both may enjoy it, but you enjoy it in the friend zone.
This makes sense. Almost to the point it worries me: "Could it be that obvious?"
TBH, if I am the "courtin' Hoosjim", Im making a reservation at a cozy little café in "Old Town" where she's always wanted to go but never has, arranging for her to have the day off on 2/15 (I know and am friendly with a couple of girls she works with, the doctor she works for, and the practice manager, and the practice owner... heck, I know most of them by now-- so it would be pretty easy for me to confirm if that would not be too disruptive and have them arrange for someone to cover for her) so we can stay out late, etc etc. and then telling her "be ready cause we're going out" and thentaking her out on V-Day. Could also just surprise her but she doesn't "surprise" very well. Likes to be given the chance to pretty up and put on clothes she thinks look good on her. Limo ride would be a nice end to such an evening-- we live in a very scenic city-- but doubt I could arrange that for V-Day at this point. (Potential drawback here is that she's already taking the following Wed off for MC/IC and might disrupt her very busy workplace and put some extra stress on her when she goes back)
Another option would just be to do something similar on this next weekend (not this one starting right now--im still getting over a wicked bad cold and she just started getting it. I'm currently on Day 8 of the damned thing.) Though she is going out with two GFs after work to see the "50 shades" movie (rolls eyes.)
Those pretty much the most likely dates coming up. Weekend after VD prolly out due to college visit for S2. Weekend after that would be the ski weekend if I do it.
Point is , I can do that kind of thing, just trying to think of the most effective way, tactically. Because, lets face it, if I am dating her again, tactics matter
hoosjim, been following along with great interest. I am asking myself some of the same questions right now regarding dating. I feel like maybe I should be more assertive and plan a date, but I'm on the fence because I'm not sure she actually WANTS to. But maybe she would if I did? I tried to plan a date, but I asked her to dinner and it was rescheduled until it didn't happen. I didn't tell her to get ready and pick out a dress for her and have a limo waiting. Maybe she would like that?
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread...just feeling your pain a little.
Sorry for the delay. I have carpal tunnel in my hands, and it got so bad that I couldn't type.
I had been going to give her a weekend away at a ski lodge for V-Day, but hadn't thought about what to actually do on the day, go out or whatever.
I like the gift idea for V-Day....except for one thing that seems to be missing. When you say give her a weekend away, it sounds as if you mean without
you. If it is going to be a
V-Day gift and she'll be going to some romantic location, you need to go
with her.
Could also just surprise her but she doesn't "surprise" very well. Likes to be given the chance to pretty up and put on clothes she thinks look good on her.
Me too! I like surprises......not just last minute ones, where I don't have time to get dolled up. My history of surprising others (anniversary, birthday, etc., where a lot of people are involved) is that an important ingredient of the enjoyment is the anticipation. Giving them the surprise
news in time for them to prepare is smart, especially for a woman......or else risk a let down in her reaction. Just putting it out there for anyone planning a special surprise party for someone.
I gave my grandparents a surprise anniversary party, and when they walked into the room and saw all the people gathered, I thought my grandfather was going to have a heart attack. Several years later I gave my aging father a big birthday party, but after the previous experience, I did not try to surprise him and told him in advance. He was excited and I saw how the anticipation actually extended the enjoyment I wanted him to have. Not that this applies to your W by any means, but maybe my experience will help someone else who is planning a big surprise for a loved one in their family.
I will try to overhaul my long post today, if my hands can hold out. Not that I said anything profound, but for some reason....I am having trouble shortening the length.
Okay, here is part of that "long post". First off, I just want to ask you if you feel she is being genuine in the things she told you......like proceeding with working on the MR? I really wish Artista would jump in here, b/c in some cases where the couple is piecing; it gets a little difficult for me to decide if she's on the up & up. It would help to have another former WW's opinion about where they see your at this time. As Artista has stated, she had more than one false start. Frankly, I don't really know....but, I believe her actions and attitude will have to be your meter.
From the time your W ended her A, I don’t know if you feel that she has actually said all the things you wanted to hear from her. All we can do is to tell a board newcomer what his WW “should” say and do. We can tell him what he needs to require from her, before reconciliation is likely to be successful. However, it doesn’t mean she will actually form the sentences quite like we suggested. But if she is just willing to save the M, then a good MC could guide her about what her H needs to hear and see from her.
IMHO, you have not had what you needed from her to give you a better sense of emotional security. In other words, you still don’t know where the MR stands. She has shown more than just civility; has had very enjoyable times with you; does little things that show a measure of consideration; and pursues you by initiating phone calls every day. In several ways, the relationship appears to be better than it has in quite some time. As common with WW’s……even recovering WW’s, they want the friendship side of the M. And when they are reconciling, coming together and improving the MR, friendship is needed. However, the lack of physical touching each other seems to be the elephant in the room. As with most LBS’s, you want the physical affection and the sexual intimacy. Those desires are normal, but until there is effort placed in these extremely important areas….…how can you feel the MR is complete/whole? There is a huge gap between the two of you, and until someone starts moving in closer, the hole will continue to exist.
I’ve already discussed the importance of starting non-sexual touching. I think someone referred to this like playing chicken, to see which one would make the first move. Maybe I’m wrong, but if there is absolutely no touching whatsoever……I doubt there will be intimate touching for a while yet. It has become too unnatural for you. I really think you need to see your IC about it. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying there is something “wrong” with you. I believe it is the result of everything you’ve previously explained. Although it is suppose to appear as just a normal, everyday non-sexual touch…….it really has to be an “intended” action on your part, until the awkwardness goes away. Make sense?
Now before someone starts shouting, “Don’t pursue”, I want to explain something. Once you are in piecing, you have to carefully change your position or mindset from being the LBS. I don’t mean change your values or stop your improvements and fall back into your old habits. I just mean that you should show your spouse that you are trying to meet them part way in restoring the MR. One of these steps is non-sexual touches, to showing signs of affections, to engaging in sexual touches. If your W is being genuine about commitment and wanting the MR to work……then she needs just as much encouragement as you. And, she especially needs it from you.
If I were to ask her what she was seeing in Jim’s demeanor, what do you think she’s say? How do you think she felt when she’s intentionally reached out to touch you, but you haven’t shown the same initiative? Does she see you as stand-offish, cold, punitive, hurt, or fearful? You mentioned how she is sensitive about her weight gain. Have you considered how she may emotionally link your hesitancy to touch her with her physical weigh? Yes, I know you think she is beautiful. But it’s what you do that makes her feel beautiful. Considering the relationship has been a SSM, and the more you resist even non-sexual touches, the less chance for a happy, successful MR, IMHO. I have mostly referred to non-sexual touching, but I think we could include a good-bye hug in the mornings……don’t you? You don’t have to stand around with your hands in your pockets, and trying to think of something to say………just head for the door and turn around and give her a quick little friendly hug, with maybe a little pat on her back. Then leave. Don’t make this so complicated.
You see Jim, if your W is being honest with you, then you are not in the position of a LBH. You are a H in the position of piecing the M back together. When you are in piecing, you need to adjust a few things you were doing from the position as a LBH. For an example, you said you have continued to be the first to end a phone conversation with her. If her behavior is belittling, disrespectful or unbecoming in some way, then that’s fine. However, if she is not acting like a b’tch, and she’s not resembling a GGW, or acting out some form of rebellion in other ways…….I think the H should not be so quick to be the first to end the conversation when his W has been the one to initiate the call. Remember, I am talking about a couple who has reconciled and she is behaving herself, okay? Your problem is that you don’t know where the M stands. You have not known if she was even committed to working on the MR. So, it leaves you in a rather puzzling situation as knowing how to interact with her. Unless you feel that she is not being honest, I suggest you wait for her to end the call (if she has been the one to initiate it) and just see if you can tell more warmth from her. It doesn’t hurt to play a little hard to get, but when piecing, I think being the one to end the conversation when she initiated the all, could be seen as cold or punitive. So, in this previous 180, you might want to determine who ends the call according to what her meter registers.
I don’t mean to confuse anyone here. Up until her recent conversation about commitment, I don’t think I have specifically mentioned your position in piecing. Mainly b/c things just looked “ify”. I was seeing things in her that concerned me, and until I hear more updates…….I don’t want to jump too far ahead. For some people, commitment means showing effort, but for others, it doesn’t. IMHO, you should see some immediate show of effort from her, if nothing else but to help your feelings. But, if she puts off seeing the MC/IC……then step back. If she’s all talk and no action, then something is still off with her. And look, it took me nearly two years before I felt as if I was “ready” to show some effort……..so I don’t want to sign you up for piecing too quickly, KWIM? I had a lot of stuff I was dealing with. And when I say “to show” effort, I mean that with a humble W there is (or should be), at first, an unseen work that is going on in her heart…….if she is being honest/real about saving her MR. If the work is being accomplished in her spirit, then outward effort will come more naturally for her. It’s when she holds back to that old wayward mindset that will prevent progress in her. So, the H has to exercise patient for a while, but I don’t think he should just “settle” for a limbo existence for the rest of their M together.
If you have not read the book on love languages, I want to encourage you to do it right away. When a couple speaks in opposite languages, communication is bound to cause problems. The book on the five basic love languages is really an eye opener. It would be very smart to know the things to do that actually speaks love to your W.
Part 2 of the extra long post:
“More recently, she has been much much much more civil in her interactions with me and kids, and certainly she is much more loving with the kids now than she has been since they were little. As to consideration towards me? Hmmmm. She does not any longer offer any signs of disrespect towards me, but, well... I will say that in terms of day-to-day consideration and politeness and demeanor she gives me as much as coworkers/friends.”
That's good......and it is very important, IMHO. If the couple is in piecing, and she can't even show as much consideration to her H as she would give to a stranger.....then, they are going to have a very long, difficult piecing period. Sometimes it's easier to show strangers consideration, than our spouse.....b/c we don't know strangers and don't have a R with them. Co-workers and neighbors, well, we often feel we "have" to show a certain level of professionalism at work, and maybe a little friendliness with a neighbor b/c they live by us? Anyway, it's a start. The actions have to come first, then the feelings will follow. Most times, I am trying to tell a newcomer not to confuse friendliness, polite consideration, etc., to mean the same as "love". On the other hand, if there has been reconciliation, then friendliness and polite consideration is....nice. It is much better than coldness, or hatefulness....but I suppose if that was the case, it wouldn't be much of reconciliation, would it? Perhaps some people confuse a true reconciliation with the fact the wayward spouse just chose to end their A and not leave the M. That's pretty much what I did at first. How could I truly be reconciled when I was so resentful toward him? I had to work on myself to get close to emotional reconciliation. I don't think I was truly reconciled in every way until the night I went to him with a broken heart for what I had done, and asked if he could forgive me. Have I confused you yet? If not, stick around.
“However, in terms of intimacy/touch, she still holds back more. I have even remarked on this to her on a couple of occasions-- Once way back in June (before this current reconcilliation phase started) and she was still avoiding any touch by me and seemed borderline repulsed by it, she could have a stranger come up and put his hand on her shoulder/back and she'd be just fine with this”
Yeah....repulsed is a pretty accurate word to describe the WW's feelings for her H. The doctor she gave a full frontal, warm hug at the Christmas party? Well, she wasn't going home with him. She could give him that hug (whether or not it was appropriate)and leave it at that. The doctor wasn't going to make the moves on her, like H's start making when they want to have sex (which is often not romantic). At least, we'll give the Doc the benefit of doubt, just to make a point of how messed up a WW's mindset can be. A woman could flirt, and even be turned on by a M co-worker at a Christmas party, and then go home with her H and think nothing of being cold as ice. So......lots of inner work needed for her. One step at a time. The healing in the intimacy (if I am saying this correctly) will probably be the last issue to fully accomplish.....
if that was the issue behind her waywardness. However, if there was something deeper, or you have no clue.....or maybe she doesn't either, the therapist will have to get her to dig it out before she can receive healing. FWIW, there is power in prayer. ((hugs)
Speaking of prayer, reminds me that she has a spiritual problem. Which, of course, goes hand in hand with waywardness. She can't have much spiritual fellowship with God, if she is rebelling against one of His divine institutions, such as M. Plus, there may be something more that she's never resolved......with God. Once she's straight with Him, her soul will feel at peace and she will be in a better place to deal with whatever is needed.
“She probably calls me two to three times as much as i dial her up, although the text imbalance is probably equally unbalanced the other way. She never says "Im just thinking of you" and she often has a pretext-- usually something about the kids-- but she has been calling me regularly two to three times during the workday ever since July/August.”
I'm guessing that was before the A began, calling you during the work day was usual behavior for her? Don't fret over her not actually saying she was just thinking of you. I think I stated those words to you, when questioning some things she might do to show interest, or whatever. However, for her to actually say those words to you could possibly indicate feelings of love, romance, & intimacy that she's not quite ready to relay verbally. Some women who are not ready for intimacy, will avoid saying something that gives her H the idea she is thinking of having sex. It's kind of her way of saying, "Don't get the wrong idea, or get your hopes up, just b/c I'm calling three times today". So, she feels she has to have some valid excuse to call, like something about the boys, etc. Women are infamous game players.......even with themselves.
I said all of that to just repeat that her daily actions toward you, are better than some WW's who are a year coming back from an A. It is usually those W’s who haven’t really committed all the way in their hearts. There is a difference in true commitment and in feeling it's the end of hoping for a happier life. Another part to it is those W's have H’s who aren’t requiring more effort b/c he is settling for her crumbs and/or he's afraid of scaring her off. My heart goes out to LBH’s b/c they really are in a delicate spot. I think it's more difficult for the H of a WW, than a W to a WH.....but that's JMHO.
“Hard to say she often deliberately reaches out to touch me with her hands. Once or twice, here and there, every couple of days, but she has plenty of opportunities where it would be natural where she does not. OTOH, she seems more willing WRT feet/legs. Maybe its just subconscious and she doesn't notice it as much, but she will often have her legs or feet pressed against mine when we are out, or even when we are in bed if we are not cuddled up a little closer.”
In case anyone wonders, you were asking about how the picture would look, and these were things I was trying to describe. Since we had approached this subject a while back, you posted about not really engaging with non-sexual touching......and the reason I found your quote above interesting was when you said she had plenty of opportunities where it would be natural but she doesn't reach out to touch you. This period you both are going through (if she has not back slid, and she is being genuine) is kind of like a game of chicken. You both hold back, waiting on the other one to make the first move. You both have made the simple act of touching each other seem as awkward as having sex in the town square in broad daylight. In other words, you are watching her like a hawk. At least, in my mind's eye it appears as such. Maybe part of that is b/c I told you not to rush her and to not get all feely-touchy b/c it would put too much pressure on her at first. In fact, I'm pretty sure I talked about not initiating any sexual type of touching. I usually give that advice b/c men want to seal the deal by having sex, and that causes many of them to push to have sex too soon. But like a lot of other H's, you seemed to have become so aware of every little move (or lack thereof) and it's killing every possibility to just act normally.
If she was reaching out to touch you every few days, and she never saw you initiate a simple non-sexual touch, where you touched her
with your hands.......then all sort of thoughts could be running through her head. You said she is dealing with some weight gain, and it really bothers her. Yes,
you think she is beautiful.....but what are you showing her, if you can't do the most basic little touches? Don't get me wrong, Jim. I'm not beating you up. This is my way of trying to point things out and explain the woman's viewpoint. When a couple is genuinely working on their MR, and if she is no longer showing waywardness (as far as you can tell), then that places you in a somewhat different position than when you were the LBH. Do you see what I mean? As a LBH who has a WW that is unwilling to work to save their MR, there are certain things you don't do.......until she agrees to work on the MR. Once she does agree, and you can see some progress (albeit, even a little), you need to gradually move closer toward her. As long as she is putting forth just a little effort of some kind, then you show her your effort, as well.
I am hesitant to even say that ^^^^, b/c someone out there will misunderstand how I mean it and start yelling to not pursue her. You never pursue a wayward! But if she's not showing signs of waywardness, and she has said that she is committed to working on the MR......then as a man, you need to move toward her. What would she say she sees in your working or your efforts on the MR? Although she was the one who cheated, and she does carry the burden of earning back your trust, if she feels a lack of team effort in the area of trying to get the MR on better level, I worry that she will stop trying at all. As long as she is responding positively toward your actions, then that's what you do when you both are actively working on the MR together. You did not cheat, but you did contribute to the breakdown of the relationship, and both of you have plenty of work to do.
I touched on this in the last post of how you are still being the first one to end the phone conversation. I'm glad you brought it up, b/c this is a good example of what I'm talking about. When the WW is having an A, or she is being disrespectful in other ways, she won't agree to work on the MR, etc........you start detaching, stepping back and giving her a lot of space, GAL, focusing on you and your kids instead of her, etc., etc. Right? Okay, so if she ends the A and all her overt wayward behavior toward you and the M, and she's being respectful toward you, and she has agreed to do whatever you've asked in order to feel safe in a R with her, and she is showing progress in the work....then you are in "piecing".
The determining line about being in piecing or in limbo is the answer to the following question. ”Did she just end her contact with OM, and is currently under the same roof with her H, ………or did she show true remorse & humility, and is cooperating in actively working to do whatever her H and MR needs to heal and be happy again?” Perhaps that question sounds over simplified. As I said, it took me nearly two years to feel like I was anywhere ready to put forth the kind of effort that a LBH wants to see from his W. For one reason, my false pride held me back. Another reason was the fact it took me so freak'in long to get through the withdrawals, and the reason (I later realized) was the fact I had not totally let go of the fantasy in my head. I daydreamed of “what could have been” with some other man. Once I truly let go of the fantasy, and got my heart right with God, then the remorse hit me for real. After I sincerely apologized to my H, then I could feel a difference in my emotional energy. I’m not saying it takes everyone that long. The more problems that existed in the MR, and the more individual issues the WW has, the longer it will probably take to resolve everything. As I’ve said in the past, it is more difficult for women to categorically separate their emotions, than it is for men.
If you are piecing the M back together, then why would you act stand offish or withdrawn, as if she was still having an A? If she is not doing what you’ve asked of her, then it needs to be addressed to determine why. If there are no logical or satisfying explanations, and if she is not willing to seek professional assistance, then you should probably state new or additional boundaries. You said you had voiced only one boundary. There is no law that says you can’t state more boundaries whenever necessary. At the very least, tell her what you need to see in her, and what she needs to do to build back your trust, and if that doesn’t happen then you’ll have to ______(fill in the blank). Just don’t tell her you’ll have to think about it further, b/c in this instance, it just gives her more leeway. If not, then you may be seeing the future of your MR as it currently stands.....which is limbo.
However, if she
has done what you've asked, and she is not giving you reason to doubt her b/c of suspicious behavior, then why would you not be piecing the M back together? Who is determining where you are? If I were to ask her what she has seen in you, what do you think she would say?
So, being the first one to end the phone calls is just one example. Although that is the thing to do when you are dealing with a wayward W, why would you continue if she is not showing disrespect toward you, and the two of you have agreed to work on this MR? When I ended my A, and I had straightened up my behavior toward my H......it would have been very hurtful and discouraging if he wanted to get off the phone every time I called him. (If he had been the one who called me, then of course, he would end the conversation first). You see, some of these things you were doing as a LBH with a WW, but there may be a few of your previous 180’s as a LBH, you don't carry over into piecing. At least, not when she is doing what you have asked from her, and when she is showing respect toward you. I don't think that point is brought out enough in the Newcomer forum, and unfortunately, a lot of people don't stick around long enough to find out. And like I said, being the first to end the phone call, is just an example. Maybe you can think of something else, or perhaps you have questions about some action and if you should continue with it.
Well, I accidently deleted the rest of post. Guess it's just as well, b/c I would have had to make a Part 3.
Excuse, if I repeated some places. I started out copying and pasting, and then it b/c confusing. I just hope I haven't confused anyone else.
Oh, I found it. Part 3, and I think the last one to that extra long post.
One of the main problems you have had since she ended the A, is not knowing where you really stand. There is no wonder you would not show affection, if she is giving suspicious signs and we are telling you something isn't right somewhere. What I'm telling you is that if you believe she's being honest......and what you read on the board does not sound anything like the woman you have at your address, then either start acting as if you are working "with her" to piece the N back together, or start go back to implementing the 37 rules....as if she were still in an affair. Does that make sense? Probably not.
. I doubt it would make sense to me if I were in your shoes. I've said all along, you need to know where you stand in this relationship. You don't want to put up your source of intel. That's fine. But I'll tell you something I don't think I ever have. To me, it appears that whenever she is showing some suspicious behavior, it's as if you agree to a point, and then you suddenly decide you don't want to know. You'll say, "I'm not going to put up the surveillance", kind of like denial, as if you seem afraid to know the truth.....and although it's rare, you get just a little defensive about it. Nobody is telling you to get intel, if you don't want to know. I'm not pushing you to do it. I'm just making a point that I've seen you do this on occasion. IMHO, it's b/c you told her to never contact OM ever again......but maybe you didn't lay down a plan or stipulations of what else she would need to do in order for you to stick with her in a MR.
I think you were too easy and didn't require the kind of transparency from her to earn back your trust. Therefore, she hasn't had to, has she? Am I forgetting something? When I tried to tell you how important it was for both of you, I got the idea you were afraid to push the transparency with her......b/c at that time, you were too afraid of losing your M. Anyway, I think that's one reason that you have felt the insecurity and uneasiness, especially when she would not wear her ring, and some of her questionable actions.
Successful piecing is the hardest thing to accomplish, and when you don't have more than a lot of guess work about where the MR stands, and only a running list of pros & cons about her behavior........how can you expect to move forward and have the loving relationship you so badly want? Too many H's are too quick to settle for the WW just ending her A and nothing else. By the time they realize they need something after the A in order to have a real M, they have waited too long. By now, she knows she does not have to give much, in order to maintain the benefits she receives from the M. So, it will be a lot harder than it would have if you had laid it out when you told her no more contact with the OM. This is why I go around grandma's house trying to explain some of these very recent posts, b/c I am so concerned it will throw you into a tizzy. I am right there with you, as for wanting to believe she has been truthful with you. I have to say that she "sounds" very convincing in her last conversation. That's another reason I wish Artista would give her viewpoint, b/c I have become somewhat emotionally attached to your stitch and really want to believe your W is being sincere. I had the same feelings with Coconut's stitch, as well as some others.
Actions will tell. I believe women tell the true story in their attitudes. Just remember to look for actions, words, and attitudes to line up with each other. When they do, then she's really ready to do the work. I'm not saying it will be easier, but at least, you'll know where you stand.
Again, apologies for any duplicating I've done in the past three posts. You all can sigh a breath of relief now.
Gee......did I break the Internet?
Maybe Jim's afraid if he says anything else, it'll make your carpal tunnel worse
Gee......did I break the Internet? grin
Hey Sandi. That is all really, really good stuff, excellent insights... i can't even begin. Just... thanks for taking the time and thought to put all that together. It really means a lot.
There is really not alot there I think i need to "respond" to other than to say, well, "thanks". I am still processing all of that, as well as some other stuff, and will post something more substantial some time in the next day or two. We have a counselling session tomorrow, so maybe after that.
Thanks again!!!
Gee......did I break the Internet?
Haha, yes sandi2, you done broke the inter web with so much input
.
I couldn't help myself, had to respond to this.
Hoosjim, your in a tough spot, most either seperate or get the "come to Jesus" moment by this time.. But now It basically comes down to your intuition, does she want to commit or is she waiting for a better option? It's really difficult to determine by your postings. I will say it seems you have a shot, but at some point things need to stabilize so moving forward becomes an option.
. Thanks, guys.
Sandi2:
Now before someone starts shouting, “Don’t pursue”, I want to explain something. Once you are in piecing, you have to carefully change your position or mindset from being the LBS. I don’t mean change your values or stop your improvements and fall back into your old habits. I just mean that you should show your spouse that you are trying to meet them part way in restoring the MR. One of these steps is non-sexual touches, to showing signs of affections, to engaging in sexual touches. If your W is being genuine about commitment and wanting the MR to work……then she needs just as much encouragement as you. And, she especially needs it from you.
Ginger:
It seems as if you let her do most of the chasing and were the submissive one and then everything kind of ceased. I, personally, have been on my own since young. Paid my bills, worked, and then after divorce did everything on my own. I make all the decisions. I handled the bills, phone calls, ect. in the marriage. I don't "need" a man. But I very much appreciate a man who knows I can handles things, but still is the "man" in the relationship. Pursues me, is decisive, initiates. Makes plans. Fixes things. Carries heavy stuff. There has to be some passion.
I am going to have a longer reply to what Sandi2 posted, probably when I update after MC tonight, but I wanted to explore this particular issue, which both Sandi and Ginger have brought up-- let's call it "Dominant/Submissive" or, perhaps, "Manly Pursuit."
What got me thinking of this, again, and in the context of y'all's posts, is the very timely debut of the latest "50 Shades" movie. Had an interesting exchange with W a couple of nights ago, when we were sitting on the couch after dinner watching TV. One of those movies, I believe the first one, was on, and we noticed it while flipping through the channels. "Oh, there's 50 shades" says W. "Should I switch to that so you can start getting ready for your girls movie night this Friday?" (She and three girlfriends are going to see the debut of the latest "50 Shades" movie this Friday.) "Yes, turn it on.." She says, then "Oh, it's already a good bit into it... is this the first one?" "Yes, that's what the capsule said" I reply. She says "Oh, you really need to watch this one from the beginning." I ask her if she's excited to be going to see it with her GFs and then ask her "Okay, so, for you, what do you think the big draw is of this movie for women?" To which she replies-- "You should really watch the movies... this first one in particular, but you need to watch it from the beginning because it explains everything". So I respond "well tell me, im interested in your take on it" "Shhhh shhh..." she says, "watch this part, it sort of explains a bit about it". The part she is referring to is where the Man in the movie, who wants to be the "Dominant" to the girls "Submissive", is talking about his own first experience with that dynamic, and to giving up control, and how it actually makes you feel "safe" and "loved" and in that was is very freeing to give up that control. Or something like that, I probably butchered it but I think that's pretty close. At any rate, W finishes by saying "You really should watch the first movie from the beginning." I tell her we could rent it now but she's like "no, it's too late tonight..." (which it was)"... but you should watch it sometime."
So, my question here is (though the answer seems obvious): IS the draw of these movies to women that they all secretly (or not so secretly) want to, at least at times, be "submissive" to a "dominant" man sexually/romantically? Sandi sort of implies this, and it is the gist of what Ginger is saying as well. But, if so, doesn't this sort of fly in the face of the whole "non-pursuit" angle? (To which, I assume, the answer as Sandi seems to be saying is that if you are to the point of reconciling/piecing, and have been in a SSM, that the dominant/pursuing male model is actually what you want to be emulating(?))
Some more interesting color on this are some things that W has said to me in the past, both distant past and then more recently since BD. One, which she was said both then and now, is that sometimes she "likes it rough", and she would want to be just "thrown down and taken" and, second, which she told me not long after BD, that she was surprised in some ways to be with me as I was "one of the smaller (stature-wise people, STATURE-wise) guys that she had been involved with" in her life, which kind of surprised her because part of her had always been drawn to the idea of being physically overwhelmed by a man. (For color, I am 5-10, she is 5-4. At 175, I am somewhat slightly, though athletically built, though as part of my fitness routine since BD I have added about 15 pounds of muscle that I did not have before... which she has noticed and commented on.)
So, all this seems to be pointing to the idea that, yes, in a vacuum, this "dominant male" stance is one that my wife (and perhaps even all women) find attractive and want to see in a man. The only real question for me, then, is is the timing right for me to be more aggressive in pushing that on her? My inclination would be "yes, what have I got to lose", but would love to hear what folks have to say about all of the above.
I have taken that role with her before, mostly in our dating past, and occasionally after marriage so it is not alien to me, though a good bit of that attitude I lost in all of the post-marriage misfortune (illness, financial hardship). My confidence in recent months has returned to very high levels-- which she has also remarked on-- but I have held back a good bit on the more aggressive "dominant male" aspects romantically/sexually due to the particular MR dynamics at play between us. Have been venturing further afield there after LW's advice from Ginger and Sandi and after having done some research/reading... really focusing on eye contact, non-sexual touch but edging a little closer to that-- hand on waist, etc., being "in her space" when near her, etc... but no huge discernible difference yet, though she has not rebelled/rebuked or shrunk away from me either. She did cozy up to me on her own last night in bed.
Jim,
I'll let someone else respond to what you wrote, but I think your thinking of it to much in a sexual way. Here's a link to something sandi2 wrote on someone's thread that I copied to mine (it's the last post. It address Alpha vs Beta behavior, not just sexually.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...507#Post2776507
I'll let someone else respond to what you wrote, but I think your thinking of it to much in a sexual way. Here's a link to something sandi2 wrote on someone's thread that I copied to mine (it's the last post. It address Alpha vs Beta behavior, not just sexually.
Coconut, thanks for that. Really good stuff. I had actually come across as more sex-focused than I had intended... I understand the importance of the entire dynamic, and the post you link does an excellent job of laying it all out. I had done some online reading based on a similar suggestion by Sandi, and found some very useful info, but what you linked added a couple of facets I had not previously considered. Indecisiveness is indeed something I have been working on eliminating, particularly in planning. One of my good friends is continually coaching me on this: "Stop analyzing, just make a plan and go with it", and I am actually doing very well in this regard.
So thanks again!
Which raises an interesting point:
Sandi2 (or anyone): What should the dynamic be in that regard (alpha male) when MC is concerned? It seems that much of that entire process (MC) runs somewhat contra to the Alpha male mindset.
I have about 1 min to respond because work is currently blowing up.
But Coconut is right. It has nothing to do with dominant sex. It has to do with being confident, handling situations, making decisions.
For example, my cousin is an alpha female. She makes the money, decisions, ect. Her H is fine with not taking charge, only doing things when told, not making plans and leaving it all up to her. Well, I won't get into the specifics of what's going on there, but, she is absolutely and completely turned off by it. Actually, after all these years, kind of disgusted by it. She a man who takes charge (not bossy) but gets stuff done is attractive.
I am going on a date Friday night. He told me where and what time and asked if that worked for me. Instead of "we can do whatever you want"
I gotta go, but I hope this clears it up a little.
And yes, you have to stop over analyzing, make a decision and just go for it. Your overanalyzing might make you look like you aren't confident. You really need to work on your confidence.
Oh, and to clarify some, since I am trying to focus on "more than just the sex" --- those "50 shades" movies are more than "just about the sex" (just as my W has told me that, in general, with her, "it's about more than just sex")... the "dominant" mindset extends to pretty much all facets of the characters interaction-- it's just that the sex is obviously what gets the headlines.
Just found it interesting in light of some of the things my W has said...
Sandi2, a bit more color and some response to you very long and well thought out post (and I am very sorry to hear about your carpal tunnel...
... I have had bad elbow and wrist tendonitis in the past, and know how painful, and painfully frustrating, it can be, especially when you have to spend a lot of time on the computer). Anyhoo....
Had our second MC session in two weeks. It was... discouraging. Maybe it shouldn't have been but my take-away was not good. W still seems to be in basically the same place she has been for a while... Maybe IC (which she agreed to try on our intensive visit on 2/21) will help.
First off, I just want to ask you if you feel she is being genuine in the things she told you......like proceeding with working on the MR?
MC asked us a series of Q's, and told us each to rate how "Things were" over the past two weeks in each of 7 areas on a scale of 1 to 7. Some of them were unsurprising... we both gave "intimacy" a "2". Others more surprising: She (W)rated "How committed are you to the Marriage for the Long Term" (qualified by the MC to be "in the 'right now' and referring to 'this process'--the counseling and effort to try to save the marriage) a "seven", while I rated it a "5". W said that that qualification by MC drove her answer, and that, even though she did not know what was going to happen with us, that, in the present, she was completely committed to this process we were engaged in. As to my rating of 5, she thought I would rate it higher since I have said in the past I am fully committed to this. My response was that there are "things that make me go 'hmmmm...'" from time to time that affect my confidence and trust in her, like when she was out very late a couple of weeks back (though yes, she did keep calling) and missed her exit to end up out near OM's bar (yes, she told me), or when I find out or suspect that she hasn't been completely honest with me about events or aspects of the A with OM. This provoked a fairly emotional response from her, with her eyes tearing up the whole time. And I know nuance is important here, so I am going to try to remember as closely as I can what she said, but it was something like--
W: "Here we are doing this, and sometimes it seems like we are moving forward, but then other times I feel like we are stuck on this thing that I did, which was really bad and I know it was really bad and I own that, but I feel like sometimes that's the ONLY thing we are worried about or working on here, when there was a whole lot wrong with us before that, and I was done and ready to walk out. It makes me angry/irritated because it seems like it took THIS to get you to want to work on things, when before you seemed just perfectly happy to let me go. Maybe I should have really walked out earlier, and we should have been doing this (counseling) a long time ago, but it bothers me that it took me becoming so lonely and desperate that I was in a place where I could do that (the affair) before you decided you wanted to try to fix things. And I know I should have tried to do something sooner, too, so that's on me, but... sometimes it seems like ALL the focus is on me and this thing I did when that is just part of what is going on with us. And I get angry that I didn't do something sooner, that we weren't working on this sooner, that I didn't do something that would have kept me from doing things and hurting you (hoosjim) and me, and... whoever else [implication OM]"
My response to her was somewhat generic-- I didn't really start getting ticked off about it (which I am now) until I started thinking about it more later. My response at the time was basically that "We're working on all of this, I am not discounting you're pain and what you went through and I know that that is very real and that our relationship prior to the A was not a good one and that those are all things we need to and ARE addressing here... but we can't just ignore the A, either."
MC's response to her was "Yes, it was just 'one thing', and, yes, it was just the culmination of a damaged relationship between the two of you, BUT it was the kind of the climactic thing and a particularly traumatic and harmful thing."
Since the session, though, the more I think about it I'm like "really? Isn't this just a half step removed from her trotting out the things I did as some sort of excuse for the A?" I mean, she didn't exactly say that, but the more I think about it the more I think it's close enough for me to be concerned about, and to be concerned about where her head is.
FWIW, she also allowed, when I point blank asked her about "putting the A and the OM behind her" that: "Do I sometimes think about him, and his kids, and how they're doing? Yes... but I'm not seeing him and im not contacting him. And do I sometimes think about the good times we had together... that even we all had together, you, me and him? Yes. And it makes me sad that that friendship is gone for you... though it has made me happy for you these past few months that you have reconnected with so many of your old friends."
None of this, I should note, is anything I find particularly comforting.
However, the lack of physical touching each other seems to be the elephant in the room. As with most LBS’s, you want the physical affection and the sexual intimacy. Those desires are normal, but until there is effort placed in these extremely important areas….…how can you feel the MR is complete/whole? There is a huge gap between the two of you, and until someone starts moving in closer, the hole will continue to exist.
Assuming for the sake of argument that her head is in a place where she could even be receptive to physical overtures, the above is dead spot on. We both rated "intimacy" at a "2" out of 7, and her take was that it still feels weird/awkward for her, and in moments when we are close physically or in a moment where it would be appropriate or likely that we would touch she sometimes still thinks to herself "okay, he's going to touch me now", though she does not find it "repelling" in any way (which she actually used to). She also says she has "noticed the past couple of weeks" that I have been touching her more... though, TBH, while this is true I have not been going overboard and have not been going "out of my way"... but have just been taking the opportunities when such touch seems like the natural thing to do. Passing in the hallway, when I have to reach over her for something in the kitchen or the like, when going through a doorway with her, etc. But... no indication from her that she is at all thawing out, at least to hear her words say it, though I will say that I have noticed a thaw in her actions over the past couple of months... a willingness to be touching me in bed, or when we are sitting together out. The more deliberate touches, however, are still mostly absent from her repertoire. She even explicitly said at one point in the MC this week that we are "in the friend zone", and "trying to get out of it".
My inclination tactically here is to just say "eff it" and be more "dominant male" than I have been with her, and, if she objects, she objects.... But the past couple of days since the session have left me stewing about both her attitude WRT the A, and about her reluctance in the physical realm-- after all it was she who originally said "lets just try to be in the moment and do what feels natural"-- Well, I am her H, and at the very least her friend... notwithstanding our past and given the type of person she is, I would definitely be expecting more warm/friendly touching on her part if she was trying to just be "in the moment." IDK.
If your W is being genuine about commitment and wanting the MR to work……then she needs just as much encouragement as you. And, she especially needs it from you.
I guess this is the big question, isn't it?
I don’t mean to confuse anyone here. Up until her recent conversation about commitment, I don’t think I have specifically mentioned your position in piecing. Mainly b/c things just looked “ify”. I was seeing things in her that concerned me, and until I hear more updates…….I don’t want to jump too far ahead. For some people, commitment means showing effort, but for others, it doesn’t. IMHO, you should see some immediate show of effort from her, if nothing else but to help your feelings. But, if she puts off seeing the MC/IC……then step back. If she’s all talk and no action, then something is still off with her. And look, it took me nearly two years before I felt as if I was “ready” to show some effort……..so I don’t want to sign you up for piecing too quickly, KWIM? I had a lot of stuff I was dealing with. And when I say “to show” effort, I mean that with a humble W there is (or should be), at first, an unseen work that is going on in her heart…….if she is being honest/real about saving her MR. If the work is being accomplished in her spirit, then outward effort will come more naturally for her. It’s when she holds back to that old wayward mindset that will prevent progress in her. So, the H has to exercise patient for a while, but I don’t think he should just “settle” for a limbo existence for the rest of their M together.
I have to admit to confusion here, myself. The issue of the rings even came up. I mentioned it obliquely, something like "you know, if things were better with us, if we were wearing rings, I wouldn't mind so much that_______ ..." To which she said "so with the rings again, you haven't worn yours in years... you lost it and it didn't even seem to bother you (admittedly true) and you never once talked about replacing it." She said she "took hers off in the kitchen one day when she was working with raw burger" and then thought to herself "I wonder if I would get any "bites"" by not having it on. She said the more she thought about it, and the way she felt, she didn't feel like she could wear the engagement ring at all, given its history (the diamond is a family heirloom on my side of the family) and what it meant to me, and after that she just kept them off. At that point mine had been off for over a year. She asked me why I wasn't wearing one and I said that I "had been asked about it" and I felt like even though I did not want the old relationship symbolized by those rings, that at least if I was committed to fixing our marriage that I should be wearing something as a sign to others. I asked her if I went out and bought one would she put hers back on what "it would look like" for her to want to put it back on. She was silent for a moment and then started to say something else and we were cut off suddenly from our Skype feed with MC, and the discussion never got finished as I scrambled to restart the connection and then we had to wrap it up. So... issue unresolved.
This is getting long, so I will put any further responses to your posts in a subsequent post.
Sandi-- Part 2 (actually part 3 if you also consider my earlier post about male dominance) of my response to you:
So......lots of inner work needed for her. One step at a time. The healing in the intimacy (if I am saying this correctly) will probably be the last issue to fully accomplish.....if that was the issue behind her waywardness. However, if there was something deeper, or you have no clue.....or maybe she doesn't either, the therapist will have to get her to dig it out before she can receive healing. FWIW, there is power in prayer. ((hugs)
And who knows what all the inner issues are with her. She grants that lack of communication and internalizing (and not just with me but with everyone) is something with which she has always struggled. We never had that level of intimacy characterized by full sharing and vulnerability regarding fears and weaknesses and problems... she because that was just the way she was raised and the way everyone in her family dealt with problems and me because I was afraid or never trusted her enough to let on that I had fears or weaknesses or the like. (We both rated "communication" a 4 out of seven, and both admitted that we held things back from each other sometimes for fear of how the other one would react. MC said, of course, that this was something we had to work on, and thought that some of the more emotional conversation we had in session, like about her and my feelings about the A, was a good start). There's also the heavy Catholic guilt thing with her, and the sexually repressed family (even kissing was frowned upon) which ran very counter to her inner nature of being or at least wanting to be a very demonstrative person physically and having a strong sex drive. And also the expectations of everyone on her that she was the "good girl" and the "good daughter" and how she feels she disappointed everyone on the one hand and how sometimes OTOH she felt she wanted to rebel. And then her body image. And probably a host of other things I don't even know about. She definitely has issues and definitely needs IC. I don't see how "we" manage to work things out if she doesn't go through that.
Speaking of prayer, reminds me that she has a spiritual problem. Which, of course, goes hand in hand with waywardness. She can't have much spiritual fellowship with God, if she is rebelling against one of His divine institutions, such as M. Plus, there may be something more that she's never resolved......with God. Once she's straight with Him, her soul will feel at peace and she will be in a better place to deal with whatever is needed.
Yes, she does. I won't belabor it here since it's already a known factor. She is a person of faith, but conflicted and guilt-ridden. A big factor with her is an abortion she underwent in college... a result of her first sexual encounter... and the guilt she long felt, and still feels, from that. She says she believes she is forgiven for that-- she did go to confession and all that-- but I have my doubts. It's constantly preached about in the catholic church, obviously, and a constant reminder to her. So, yeah... another issue.
I'm guessing that was before the A began, calling you during the work day was usual behavior for her?
In the distant past, yeah. But by the time the A rolled around, we had not been talking during the work day for a fairly long time. The occasional (certainly not even daily) call about something kid-related, but other than that, nothing. When we first started this "reconciling" (if that is indeed what we are doing), she was calling constantly-- she'd always call during her lunch break, and then usually at least two or three other times. Since the really cold weather started, she doesn't get to go outside at lunch, and with her work switchover, she just flat doesn't get lunch breaks period most days, so she is calling now a little less than she did in, say, October/November, but still at least a couple times a day, and I am trying to get in at least one call to her, either during her commute (A lot of her affair convos with OM were during commute time) or during the workday, but it is hard to connect from my end because the nature of her job she has to talk to people so often and often either cant pick up or then when she does has to hang up right away... so usually I leave the calling to her, figuring she will call when she has a few minutes to talk... W'eve actually joked about this.
As long as she is putting forth just a little effort of some kind, then you show her your effort, as well.
And... she does appear to be putting forth at least a little effort. But it's her mindset I worry about. And she keeps saying things here and there, and maybe I am just overanalyzing and I AM too focused on the A but... I get nervous. We've had so many starts and stops before.
In case anyone wonders, you were asking about how the picture would look, and these were things I was trying to describe. Since we had approached this subject a while back, you posted about not really engaging with non-sexual touching......and the reason I found your quote above interesting was when you said she had plenty of opportunities where it would be natural but she doesn't reach out to touch you. This period you both are going through (if she has not back slid, and she is being genuine) is kind of like a game of chicken. You both hold back, waiting on the other one to make the first move. You both have made the simple act of touching each other seem as awkward as having sex in the town square in broad daylight. In other words, you are watching her like a hawk. At least, in my mind's eye it appears as such. Maybe part of that is b/c I told you not to rush her and to not get all feely-touchy b/c it would put too much pressure on her at first. In fact, I'm pretty sure I talked about not initiating any sexual type of touching. I usually give that advice b/c men want to seal the deal by having sex, and that causes many of them to push to have sex too soon. But like a lot of other H's, you seemed to have become so aware of every little move (or lack thereof) and it's killing every possibility to just act normally.
Just FWIW I really think that this is amazingly on point and really captures the sitch perfectly... Assuming that my W is in fact being genuine in her efforts at the moment.
The determining line about being in piecing or in limbo is the answer to the following question. ”Did she just end her contact with OM, and is currently under the same roof with her H, ………or did she show true remorse & humility, and is cooperating in actively working to do whatever her H and MR needs to heal and be happy again?”
And this is where I am kind of uncertain. I believe she did show true remorse and humility, and she has continued to show remorse (she continues to say "this is on me, I did this, I own this, etc.) but... every now and then she says something like she said in session and I say to myself "okay, now what was that?" She is defensive by nature... very defensive, actually, which comes from the guilt angle, but I am not sure that that fully explains everythin. Due to the tech difficulties, We did not get to fully explore in session what I was trying to say that sparked that whole discussion, and I feel like I need to tell her what I meant, which was not to keep beating her up and slapping her around for having the affair (which is how she appeared to take it) but to convey to her that the more transparent she can be, like calling me, not being late, sharing her phone (and I noticed the other day when she handed me her phone to do something that it still had a lock on it-- she unlocked it for me but that lock is still activated), that the easier trust gets for me, and that that is not about beating her up for the past but rather about rebuilding our relationship and building intimacy going forward. MC kind of touched on those points but I don't think that that's what W got from me.
I think you were too easy and didn't require the kind of transparency from her to earn back your trust. Therefore, she hasn't had to, has she? Am I forgetting something? When I tried to tell you how important it was for both of you, I got the idea you were afraid to push the transparency with her......b/c at that time, you were too afraid of losing your M. Anyway, I think that's one reason that you have felt the insecurity and uneasiness, especially when she would not wear her ring, and some of her questionable actions.
I think you are right. She has done some things, she would say a lot of things-- limiting her time out with GFs, always calling when she is late, letting me track her phone, sharing her phone with me frequently, getting rid of all her A-related FB contacts... but I never required her to submit to random phone checks, or to give me her phone password. (She did give it to me very early on, sort of haphazardly and a bit defensively: "What? I think its like "___________"", but I think she thinks I have forgotten it, and I have not let on that I know it. She has left her phone "laying around"-- I almost think she does this on purpose-- a few times and I have checked it and found nothing suspicious, so if she is doing anything on the phone, and I have looked VERY deeply into app history and everything, she is really covering her tracks. (There is a very, very old text string from late 2016 between her and OM, very close to the bottom of her text history (Way, WAY down there) that she may not know about... but which is still on the phone. It was from when they were just being friendly and when things were starting to cross the line but before they got steamy. IDK, if I ever have the occasion to be looking over the phone WITH her again, I might bring it up, after which I am sure she will delete it just like she did the FB messenger thread).
At any rate, yeah. I should've established clearer and definitive transparency standards. But I didn't. To her credit, she has really tried to keep me apprised of her whereabouts and so forth. I know she's had slip ups and know she has had drive by's, here and there, of OM's hangouts, though the last one I know of for certain was in November (or December, if you want to count the trip to the store she told me about that I voiced concerns about but she went anyway and then told me she'd gone.) But... yes it would make things easier, though, even then, it wouldn't change some of the things she's said that give me pause.
Ugh.
This is all very interesting stuff, but I think I might have an unpopular take on this, but I think what she did in this session showed some actual true commitment. She gave you complete transparency into her feelings about everything. She communicated honestly and directly, even if you didn't want to hear it.
She told you she doesn't contact OM, but thinks about him sometimes, but won't do anything about it. I have a spot in my heart for anyone I have ever had feelings for. My mind occasionaly thinks about some good times and I miss them. This doesn't mean that I am going back to them, I want to go back to them, or I am not happy with what I currently have. it's just memories of a time that felt good. And when things get kind of cra**y, we go back to those times in our head sometimes. What she does with those thoughts are the real deal breaker.
Also, in the same breath that you feel like she is sweeping the A under the rug, she feels like you are sweeping the lack of intimacy under the rug and how the M was that lead her to where she was. You aren't to blame for her A, that's her responsibility, but I think both areas deserve an equal amount of focus. They are both acknowledged, but in her mind she feels like the underlying problem needs to be addressed more rather than the A, and I would have to say I would have to agree with her.
Take a fever for an example. You can give Tylenol to keep breaking it, but you need to find the underlying cause to remedy that so it doesn't come back (I am nurse, so please excuse me, but this always rang with me).
Take the lead with the ring. Don't do an "if I do it, will you do it" thing. Here, be dominant, put a ring back on and see how she follows. Again, your positive action might be met with a return positive action.
I actually find this encouraging.
I am going to have a longer reply to what Sandi2 posted, probably when I update after MC tonight, but I wanted to explore this particular issue, which both Sandi and Ginger have brought up-- let's call it "Dominant/Submissive" or, perhaps, "Manly Pursuit."
Perhaps we have hit you over the head too many times about pursuing. Dominance and pursuing are not the same. Pursuing is chasing someone or something that is running away from you.......or is not responding the way you desire. Dominance doesn't chase. Dominance is mainly being in charge.
There are times it definitely requires action to maintain the dominant position, but dominance doesn't chase. Dominance is seen in various areas of our society. We see it in the military, the workforce, a group of friends, schoolyards, and in families. IMHO, the dominant person has a mindset, an attitude, and a confidence that others can see. Dominant people are the natural leaders. I have seen people placed in positions of leadership, but they were more the submissive type, and therefore, failed miserably at their jobs.
So, my question here is (though the answer seems obvious): IS the draw of these movies to women that they all secretly (or not so secretly) want to, at least at times, be "submissive" to a "dominant" man sexually/romantically? Sandi sort of implies this, and it is the gist of what Ginger is saying as well. But, if so, doesn't this sort of fly in the face of the whole "non-pursuit" angle? (To which, I assume, the answer as Sandi seems to be saying is that if you are to the point of reconciling/piecing, and have been in a SSM, that the dominant/pursuing male model is actually what you want to be emulating(?))
Here again you are linking dominance with pursuing. It is not the same. Yes, women want a man who is sexually dominant. Why should it be so shocking? That is how God originally designed it. I think women are drawn to the romantic novels and movies, b/c of what is missing in their own relationships. It's nice to watch a sweet love story........equal to the Little House on the Prairie. However, these are not the type of stories that will get her blood pumping. It is reading or watching a storyline where the female character's senses are consumed by the male character. Of course he sexually dominates her! Of course that's what draws her natural feminine desire to submit to his dominance. It appeals to all straight women, IMHO, and they even enjoy reading or watching movies about it.
If a woman is sexually straight, she's not going to feel the desire to sexually submit to another woman. Neither will she feel the
desire with a Beta, passive-type man........b/c he takes the submissive role. I mean, she can make the
choice to submit, but that's nothing compared to a dominant male who
draws her natural feminine sexual responses. That is what makes all the difference for women! When she is with her dominant male, it's as if her senses are in contol of her free will.......and he's in control of her senses. Well, that's how it sounds in the books, anyway. And, that's what draws the women, b/c that is what they dream about.
I will try to comment without getting into too long of a post, which is difficult b/c you are really talking about more than the subject of dominance in your quote above. Once a couple reconciles, and the WW is showing respectful behavior toward her H and their MR, and she is doing all she can to atone for her wayward actions.........then he has to transitition from the position of a LBH to that of a H in piecing. Which means,
he is leading, not chasing. That is why it is important to know where the MR stands. Men fall into the limbo status in the MR, b/c they don't know where it stands, so they wait on their W to lead. Bad mistake. If she was wayward, then she does not need to be leading the relationship. That's one of the problems that started this whole mess.
I suppose the issue with men is that the lines get blurred between dominance, initiating sex, pursuit, sex, leadership, sex, etc. Did I mention sex? You did not develop a decade of SSM overnight, and you probably won't come back overnight. (Based on comments you've made about previously holding back from non-sexual touches, I think you might want to consider some therapy for that precise issue). There was something in you before you ever married, that held you back from non-sexual touches. Does it play a part in the SSM? IDK, but I can tell you that if she is not receiving any
intentional human touch from you........I don't think your MR stands much of chance. Oh, you may continue living together, but I don't think it will ever be intimate, without you initiating human touch. You even said
touch was her LL! So, in the words of 25yrsmlc....."Figure that sh't out"!
One, which she was said both then and now, is that sometimes she "likes it rough", and she would want to be just "thrown down and taken"
I really think this indicates a strong desire to be sexually dominated. I doubt that she wants to be inflicted with pain......but who knows.
I was still a teenager when I got married. I very innocent about men, and especially about sex. So, I needed my sweet, gentle, nice-guy H throughout our initial months of M life together. As I started maturing, I thought I must be frigid b/c I was not feeling sexually turned on by my H. Long story, but I found myself drawn to the books and movies, and I daydreamed about being seduced by a dominant male. I wanted my H to be more aggressive in our lovemaking. Don't get me wrong, I don't do pain.......but, I would have liked it a little rougher than just him hovering above my body and waiting on me to do the work.
Maybe your W is into role playing, IDK. My thoughts are that you don't need whips and chains to be sexually dominant. You were given a glimpse into something she craves, by her reaction to the movie. Who knows........you might be able to jump start this thing by buying a pair of handcuffs!
Seriously, your stature has nothing to do with it. I am tall, so I wanted to date guys taller than me. Perhaps that goes back to the natural desire of wanting to feel dominanted by the male. Although it is not as unusual these days, it once was very uncommon to see a tall woman with a shorter man. But hey, look at all the 5'9 to 5'10 actors who portray very masculine roles.
When I would fantasize, I would always be with a man who was much taller than me. Actually, I always wanted to be about 5'4".......so maybe I was really fantasizing about my height. But here's the thing, you or I can do nothing about our height. I can't get shorter and you can't get taller. At the end of the day, height really has very, very little to do with our attraction and sexual fulfillment with the one we are with. I sincerely believe your W's reference to her previously choosing taller guys is her expressing her need to feel sexually dominated. A tall man overshadowing a petite woman.........isn't that the picture of a type of domination? If she's tall and wants a picture of domination, she thinks she needs to get a much taller guy to fill the bill. But realistically, this is not necessary. Not if he's the man, internally, that she needs. There are a lot of tall men walking around that have no clue about things that really matter in the bedroom.........or so I've heard.
Yes, we women speak in codes. I'll admit it. But it's b/c we know that the most fragile thing on earth is the male ego. So, I'm here......telling you guys what your W's won't say.
So, all this seems to be pointing to the idea that, yes, in a vacuum, this "dominant male" stance is one that my wife (and perhaps even all women) find attractive and want to see in a man. The only real question for me, then, is is the timing right for me to be more aggressive in pushing that on her? My inclination would be "yes, what have I got to lose", but would love to hear what folks have to say about all of the above.
Yes, it is time to take the dominant stance. Just please remember what I've said about starting with non-sexual touching. You need to get comfortable with it, before undertaking more intimate touching. And, then move from non-sexual to things that are considered more personal.......like touching her face, hair, neck, etc. If she does not flinch, pull away, or stiffen her body, then that means she is good. If you see this as "pursuing", then so be it.
I see it as you meeting her part way, b/c she has tried reaching out to touch you. It is, also, being dominant. A dominant male is not afraid to get up close in her personal space. He doesn't
have to.......but he's not hesitant to do it. This is also a move from transitioning from your position of a LBH to one in piecing..........if you believe your W is being genuine in her commitment.
She did cozy up to me on her own last night in bed.
And what did you do? Although some women just want to cuddle without it leading to sex..........I would say this is a signal from her that she wants more physical contact. How many times has she been the one to make this sort of move toward you? But what do you do, when she makes these moves? Do you respond likewise? Do you take control? Do nothing? Coming from a SSM is challenging, but someone has to make the first move. By that, I don't mean you should go from zero touching on a daily bases to fully engaging in sexual intercourse the first time your hand reaches out to her.
I think the topic of sex is on the minds of both you and your W. She wants, and probably needs, to know that she has not committed to a SSM for the rest of her life. Not being happy in the MR helped to lead her in making very bad decisions. For me, I felt like I lost my last chance at happiness when I ended my A. If she had similar feelings, then she needs encouragement by seeing that her H wants her as a woman, and as his W. She has seen she can have fun with you, now she needs to see if sex is in the near future, too. Yes, start with baby steps........but once you get to the place you feel pretty confident, then don't just stand there.......or lay there. Take control. Remember, dominance is a mindset.
So, now tell us the different ways you touched her today.
So, excellent pep talks ladies, thanks! I do tend to overanalyze sometimes, and I also in this case have been guilty of over focusing on the affair, even though it is something that obviously has to be dealt with. At any rate, I can be "that guy"... I have been in the past, after all. My confidence overall has been much better the past few months, but there is always room for improvement in how I interact with my wife, and, obviously, I can make our relationship much more rewarding, and, I think, much more fun by just embracing my confidence and going with it.
Now, a different and specific question, especially for you ladies on the board. How to handle big milestone birthdays. My wife will be 50 here in a couple months, middle of May actually. How do women look on these things for the most part? Do they not like a big deal to be made out of them because they tend to be more age sensitive? Or do they want people, particularly their husbands, to make a big deal about it? And obviously there is the overlay of my own particular situation here.
Now, the last I have heard my wife say anything about this, was about 3 months ago in the early stages of our counseling, when she said "I feel bad because I think I'd really like to do something like fly off to Cancun for a week or something on my 50th, but I don't see myself doing that sort of thing with you, I see it more with my girlfriends and I feel like normally that's something you should want to do with your husband, but I'm just having trouble seeing it right now" or something to that effect. Now, I know at that point I mentioned this conversation on my thread, and somebody, I think it was Sandi, posted that should be a red flag, and then I should be wondering or asking what it was that she couldn't do on such a trip with me that she could do with her girlfriends. Like I said, she has said nothing about that subject since, and things are obviously significantly better between us at this point than they were at that point. Reason I ask, is do want to do something significant for her, assuming that that is generally deemed a good idea for women in that situation.
I had just started thinking about what I would do, probably some sort of trip on one of the weekends right around her birthday, and she gets a text from her BFF today, saying "May 16-18 is going to be girls birthday weekend, mark your calendars." For color, both the other girls involved have birthdays within about a month to a month and a half of each other. (my wife showed me the text from BFF when it came in). I didn't say anything, except to comment that "oh your friends' birthday is in May, too, isn't it?" Which wife confirmed, but neither of us said anything else about it at that point. So now I'm like, "damn it, I should already have had something planned..." except for the fact that I have been uncertain about whether or not such plans would be welcomed based on what she had previously said.
As an additional matter, I'm really not thrilled about her having a second overnight girls weekend within a month ( they have already planned one for April to take a wineries tour by limo (bff plans all this stuff) and, obviously, overnight girls weekends with BFF have, in the past, been used by my wife as cover to see the OM. Now, I am more and more believing that she is past the phase of seeing the OM, and more willing for her to be able to go out with BFF (they actually went out last night and Ws behavior was to all apowarances exemplary) I'm just not sure I like the Dynamics of the whole situation, or of her going away twice in one month for that kind of weekend. Especially when I'd like to do something with her, my wife, to mark the occasion
So, two questions I guess: 1) should I be planning something significant for my wife's 50th, particularly under the circumstances, and, if so, what? I was honestly thinking about a getaway trip somewhere though I haven't come up with details yet. Probably a beachy destination since we both like that. 2) how should I be handling this overlay from the proposed girls weekend away. Note that wife has not said definitively yay or nay yet to that weekend. Though I am sure she would like to. She just looooves BFF... [rolls eyes]
sharing her phone (and I noticed the other day when she handed me her phone to do something that it still had a lock on it-- she unlocked it for me but that lock is still activated), that the easier trust gets for me, and that that is not about beating her up for the past but rather about rebuilding our relationship and building intimacy going forward. MC kind of touched on those points but I don't think that that's what W got from me.
If I had not been on the board when I ended my A, I'm sure I would have made major mistakes during piecing. I have learned more from H's in your position, than I ever learned from my own H. However, speaking from her side......I don't think she is getting a clear picture of what you need from her to heal. And she needs to know the reason you continue (directly or indirectly) to the A is b/c it is the elephant in the room, which grows larger when she gets so defensive.
Does she really "get" why you need her to be transparent, or does she see the action as being punitive? Are you sure you really explained the reason behind transparency, or did you more or less tell her it was to earn your trust? Well, it is for that reason, too, but there is more to it. It is not a form of punishment. I can see how she could see it in connection to paying for her sin of unfaithfulness. Especially, since she is so defensive toward anyone that steps on her toes. If she is under the impression it's all about the A.....then she needs to be told that it is to help both of you, and so as to not having unanswered/unexplained "situations".
If she wants to cheat, being transparent with her phone will not stop her. She should be told it is not a means for you to control her, or take away her privacy. But at the end of the day, she should be told that transparency will help keep away a lot of demons that are ready are gobble you up the first time she is late coming home or whatever. If this is something she can do to help restore the MR, then ask her why would she not freely do it. She also needs to know it will not last forever. The quickest way for her to deal with transparency is to just be honest. When a W, especially one who is/was wayward doesn't want to show her H the phone, or she has to unlock it before handing it over to her H..........I have a big problem with it. You should have calmly asked her for the password, but she would probably have given some excuse......like, security reasons. OTOH, if she did not take a minute to scan her messages before releasing the phone to you.......all may not be completely hopeless.
IDK, if I ever have the occasion to be looking over the phone WITH her again, I might bring it up, after which I am sure she will delete it just like she did the FB messenger thread).
Why do you think you should look "with" her?
But... yes it would make things easier, though, even then, it wouldn't change some of the things she's said that give me pause.
Transparency is not a fix for either of you. It is a coping method, as you are healing and getting through the initial stages of repairing the M. My question to any WW would be, "Is it too much to ask"? IMHO, there is only one real reason a W would not want her H seeing her phone, and it is b/c she has something to hide. She may give excuses.....but her real reason is b/c she has something to hide.
I understand her resentment and defensive stand, but I also know she has to figure how to get out of it. Hopefully, the MC will help her figure it out. Anything further about intensive sessions, as suggested by your W?
I understand her resentment and defensive stand, but I also know she has to figure how to get out of it. Hopefully, the MC will help her figure it out. Anything further about intensive sessions, as suggested by your W?
Yeah, we are, as she suggested/offered, going for a full day on 2/21. Four and a half hours of intensive counselling. Some of which, she said, she would agree to do as IC.
Yes, the moment with the phone was a missed opportunity. OTOH, as you said, she is not scanning her messages before she gives it to me, so that is something, although i do know that she has deleted some texts between her and bff... at bff's insistence, but that could be anything, including about bff's ongoing divorce from my own best friend... though I HAVE told my W that i dont think we should have any secrets from each other...about anything.
Her initial excuse, way back when, for the password on the phone, the same day she sort of defensively gave it to me, was that she "leaves it laying out on her desk alot" at work and doesn't want it to be unlocked in case someone takes it or picks it up. Of course, i work in the defense industry and we have MAJOR security concerns, and i never have a lock on my phone. AAR, I plan to bring it up next opportunity. You explain the transparency concept very well, although i am pretty sure i have, in the past, couched it in terms of being there "for the both of us."
Any take on the 50th birthday and/or the proposed "girls weekends." (Both the other girls going on those are divorced/single, FWIW)
I also in this case have been guilty of over focusing on the affair, even though it is something that obviously has to be dealt with
Okay, so do you feel there are still loose ends? What do you need that has not happened yet, in relation to the A? She ended it, apologized for it, and has not contacted OM as far as you know. This is important, Jim. How do you want to deal with the A? She already feels you focus entirely on the A, instead of the other issues that existed, so the longer you go without "dealing with it", the worse it may be.
Do they not like a big deal to be made out of them because they tend to be more age sensitive? Or do they want people, particularly their husbands, to make a big deal about it? And obviously there is the overlay of my own particular situation here.
Well......I don't recommend throwing her an "over the hill" party. But as I've been saying recently, It depends on the current stitch. My short answer is that you need to celebrate your W's birthday. Unless she is one of these rediclous women who don't want anyone knowing their age, then you can have a party for her. Either way, don't ignore her birthday. It is a milestone, so do something to celebrate "with" her......and don't send her off to be alone, as you had previously thought about doing. What would your old W have wanted?
Now, the last I have heard my wife say anything about this, was about 3 months ago in the early stages of our counseling, when she said "I feel bad because I think I'd really like to do something like fly off to Cancun for a week or something on my 50th, but I don't see myself doing that sort of thing with you, I see it more with my girlfriends and I feel like normally that's something you should want to do with your husband, but I'm just having trouble seeing it right now" or something to that effect.
Doesn't matter what she said about it. BTW, this was a cold statement for her to say to you, but she was not interested in doing anything with you. At the time, I felt she was probably covering for a possible trip with just the girls. But who can go to Cancun for a week to celebrate a birthday! Does that not seem a bit over the top......or is it just me?
So now I'm like, "damn it, I should already have had something planned..." e
Yep! And besides, leave it to the good old BFF to snatch her away without even consulting with you before taking it upon herself to make plans for your W's birthday...assuming it does fall on her birthday. Oh well, if your W decides to leave, you can always have it another date.
I'm just not sure I like the Dynamics of the whole situation, or of her going away twice in one month for that kind of weekend. Especially when I'd like to do something with her, my wife, to mark the occasion
I don't blame you, and before I started reading the board, I'd never heard of so many M women spending the night and/or going off on so many girlfriend trips. I still don't hear about it, locally. Sure, having a girls night out once in a while, but these ladies seem to push the limits. That is strictly JMHO.
Actually, I could find several negative comments to add about why she should not leave so frequently to take a girls trip. But I will spare you from hearing them. What bothers me is about you saying you wanted to do something with her. When was the last time you left her sitting at home while you GAL? Are you going to GAL while she is running around with the girls? Maybe it is time to plan doing something with your W, besides going to your favorite hangout. Anything becomes boring if you don't change it up sometimes.
If she continues going two weekends out of each month to be away from home. I think you need to say something about it to her. It is just not what people should be doing when they are trying to save their M after an affair. But in the meantime, get busy planning weekend activities when she's not away with her BFF.
Well......I don't recommend throwing her an "over the hill" party. But as I've been saying recently, It depends on the current stitch. My short answer is that you need to celebrate your W's birthday. Unless she is one of these rediclous women who don't want anyone knowing their age, then you can have a party for her. Either way, don't ignore her birthday. It is a milestone, so do something to celebrate "with" her......and don't send her off to be alone, as you had previously thought about doing. What would your old W have wanted?
Wanted to clarify something because i gave you the wrong impression previously and you've mentioned it twice now... It was never my impression to send her away "on her own" for a weekend. When i said i wanted to "give her a weekend away", my intention was always that it would be both of us going.
At any rate, my plan is to take her away to a tropical destination for her birthday. That set up was always good for us, we both like the beach and alot of our best early memories are from trips to places like that (Key west, cancun, in particular). I would not plan to throw her any kind of party-- just too problematic with too many different groups of friends (notably her bff... just not sure how to handle that because so much bad blood between certain sectors of her friend profile.) Plus, i am certain bff will arrange something for her. I'd hope her other friends would, too. Maybe i could take a hand in pushing them in the right direction so I am "involved" and leave the sticky guest list issues to them and then i can focus on the trip angle.
WRT the trip, I am just going to approach her and say "Look, W, I really, really want to do something with you on your birthday, and I had wanted to surprise you, but bff's overtures are making that very hard... I really wish she had contacted me first. I'd like you to keep that weekend open".
Or... should i go ahead and contact bff? We are nominally on speaking terms now (well, kind of) but still no love lost. I really don't want her having any whiff of what i am doing so she can non-stop trash me to W, or do something else to sabotage the surprise (which i am sure she would do.) Anyone think i am off base here? I think this is just something i need to talk to W directly about...
I would talk your Wife, a husband does not need bff's approval to do something with his wife. Tell her that you want to take her away to celebrate her life, and tell her what you've already planned (don't pay until you've told her), don't ask what she wants to do, surprise her months in advance with what you're going to do with/for her.
a husband does not need bff's approval to do something with his wife.
Hey, coconut, thanks.
I want to make something
crystal clear, though: I would never,
never, think i needed, nor would i seek, that...
woman's... approval about anything. She's lower than whale spit in my book. Maybe not that low, but pretty low. I have "forgiven" her in the Christian sense and wish no ill will on her, but I want, and do not intend on giving her, any influence or pull on my life.
My thought... and it was only a "thinking out loud" kind of thought, was along the lines of trying to maintain control of the situation
and the surprise factor at the same time. (I had actually already been talking with w's coworkers with whom i am friendly about getting the time off for her without her knowing). The thought was a musing about whether or not it might be fruitful to say to bff "hey, look, Mr.s hoosjim told me you are trying to plan a girls weekend on _______, but I am already planning on taking Mrs. Hoosjim away that weekend for her birthday... If you want my her to participate, why dont you look at other weekends for your get-together?" I would never approach her with a "request" nor with any seeking of approval.
That said, your point is well-taken... this needs to be between me and my W. Involving bff would be unnecessary, appear weak, and would unnecessarily complicate things... especially given the strained relationship (putting it kindly) that i have with the woman.
Thanks!
WRT the trip, I am just going to approach her and say "Look, W, I really, really want to do something with you on your birthday, and I had wanted to surprise you, but bff's overtures are making that very hard... I really wish she had contacted me first. I'd like you to keep that weekend open".
Please do not do this. It will not be a nice gift or something she looks forward to if you make mention of her BFF. Instead it makes it something stressful that makes it feel like she is being put in between. I notice a lot of you what you say to your W includes a "wish you would have done this instead of that" sentiment. Leaving everything on her shoulders and feeling like she has done wrong which equals pressure, which takes the enjoyment out of things.
I love C-nut's expression. Here is a way to be confident of your decision. Don't put the onus on anyone else. Make the plans!
I love C-nut's expression. Here is a way to be confident of your decision. Don't put the onus on anyone else. Make the plans!
This actually came up last night at bedtime. Her phone buzzes and she says "My GF says to tell you 'Hi', and that she is really looking forward to seeing me on the girls weekend in May". (My W's GF, the third in the girls troika with her and bff, is a really sweet person, and also a friend of mine from college and someone I like and get along with--not sure what she sees in bff, but...) So that's my opening. I tell her: "About that... I had been planning on taking you away somewhere that weekend to celebrate your birthday, but I had wanted it to be a surprise." "Oh" she says... "BFF picked that weekend with GF because that's the only weekend any time around that date where both of them don't have the kids-- its really the only time we could get together." (Which I'll take at face value-- they do each have sort of bizarre child custody arrangements in terms of timing which probably would make coordinating a whole weekend as opposed to a girls night out difficult. For color, they are just all going to GF's house south of here to hang out and go out to dinner and have a "slumber party".) "Could we go away the previous weekend?" she asks. I am understanding about this, and say so. I do say, FWIW, that "I do wish, as your husband, that bff had called me first to see what I was doing for your birthday, but I understand the scheduling complications... I know from talking to __________ (my friend and bff's STBXH) how crazy the weekend scheduling with their kids can be, so it's cool. I've already got a destination and have been plotting with your coworkers to get you off work, but I can easily book plans the previous week. Just try to act surprised" (at which point i smack her with a pillow and we both laugh-- it's sort of a running gag with us that she is impossible to surprise and always seems to get into or create circumstances where she finds out about surprises ahead of time-- my marriage proposal being the most notable, but that's a whole story to itself.) We talked about it briefly again this morning over the phone-- she called me to say "You're sure you're okay with this?" and I said "Yes, definitely. I understand the dynamics with your friends, and I already have a plan and it works just as well the previous weekend as the weekend after." And she says, "So, do you want any input?" and I say "Whose?" and she says "The only one's who matters, mine (laughs)" and I say, "Hey, im always open to input" so we chat a little more and then she has to go. She sends me a couple of island/beachy pictures... "input", and I text her back "I think you'll be happy be with the plan." (I'm booking us for Cancun-- it was the first real exotic/romantic getaway we had... back when we were just engaged... and she has always talked about wanting to go back... and now she seems willing-- even maybe a little excited(?) to go with me.)
So that's the plan.
Hope it goes well. Would be really nice if we are more... ummm... "cozy" by the time May rolls around.
See, this is where I see the difference. BFF doesn't give a crap what you had planned. So why bother telling your W? What do you expect? That your exW says to BFF, you should ask my husband first to see if he is making any plans before you do?"
Your Wife should have said "let me see if my H has anything planned for me first, and I'll get back to you".
Otherwise, she seems excited about the trip. Don't spoil it with BFF crap. The way I see it is, that is for your W to handle, on her own accord.
See, this is where I see the difference. BFF doesn't give a crap what you had planned. So why bother telling your W? What do you expect? That your exW says to BFF, you should ask my husband first to see if he is making any plans before you do?"
Your Wife should have said "let me see if my H has anything planned for me first, and I'll get back to you".
Otherwise, she seems excited about the trip. Don't spoil it with BFF crap. The way I see it is, that is for your W to handle, on her own accord.
I think there is may be a valuable nugget in here I am missing.
Other than agreeing that either or both of my W or bff should have asked me... especially W, I think I am missing some of the nuance of your post, could you rephrase/explain some?
FWIW, W did tell me as soon as she got the text from bff saying "I'm planning a girls birthday weekend on X weekend", and showed me the text (without looking, I think it came in on Saturday morning). She didn't "ask" or say "is this okay"...but... it was quite possible, and consistent with the roundabout way she goes at such things sometimes, that she was "woman testing" or giving me the opportunity to say something... idk. I was just so taken aback at that moment that I just let it pass, and she didn't say anything committing to doing it, either. Next time it came up was last night, and had she not gotten the text from GF I was going to bring it up.
But, anyway, yeah-- further clarification/explanation on your post might be helpful. Maybe the only point is, at this point, don't harp on or belabor the bff angle... which I was not going to do. But... if there's more please let me know... I appreciate all you gals' insights on this.
I think you expect your BFF to respect your M or have your W make her respect it. Not gonna happen. BFF has got to want to do that on her own, because she owes no allegiance to you. So it is your W who will be responsible for stepping up and saying "let me see what my H has planned and I'll get back to you, if that is indeed her actual birthday. To have any expectation of BFF of giving a sh!t is going to disappoint you. Expressing your disapproval of the way your BFF handled things isn't going ot get you anywhere. Maybe it is your wife you should be expressing your disapproval of the way SHE handled things if it really bothered you. But you seem cool with it and understand, so best to leave it alone.
I think you expect your BFF to respect your M or have your W make her respect it. Not gonna happen. BFF has got to want to do that on her own, because she owes no allegiance to you. So it is your W who will be responsible for stepping up and saying "let me see what my H has planned and I'll get back to you, if that is indeed her actual birthday. To have any expectation of BFF of giving a sh!t is going to disappoint you. Expressing your disapproval of the way your BFF handled things isn't going ot get you anywhere. Maybe it is your wife you should be expressing your disapproval of the way SHE handled things if it really bothered you. But you seem cool with it and understand, so best to leave it alone.
I agree.
I'm glad to hear your W sounds excited about your plans. It may be a challenge for you to not allow your feelings toward BFF to push your buttons. It would be a challenge for me, too. But Ginger is right. It is your W that is going to need to set the BFF straight by giving her the appropriate responses.....like the example Ginger stated. That example sounds like what a M woman would say when someone else asked her to go on a trip with them. It's not the W asking for
permission from her H. It is the W showing consideration for her partner in M.
Jim,
I don't know your Wife, but if she has a way of finding out about surprises ahead of time, it may be because she doesn't like surprises. I know for me, knowing I was going somewhere, but not where would stress me out; don't underestimate the endorphins that anticipation brings on.
You may want to finalize your plans, where are you staying, a excursion or two if your doing any, then surprise your W with the details once you know them. Let her anticipate the trip, let her think of things she would like to do while there (if she's the type to like to plan), and share those ideas with you. let her have the next couple months thinking about and talking about spending a great trip with you, Instead of hiding from you that she knows and not being able to talk with you about it.
My personal opinion, surprises are over rated.
How have things been going? Not hearing from you as often. I hope you aren't going to fade out on us.
Quietly encouraging. Sloooow warm-up continues. Dominant male mode seems to be helping some. V-Day "date" and this weekend went pretty well. Intensive MC/IC on 2/21. W still no communion or confession at church, though she is attending. Will post more detail soon.
Okay, I am anxiously waiting.
Yes, today was the big day, wasn't it? Hope we will get an update soon Jim.
Okay, I am anxiously waiting.
Hopping now, and going to bed soon-- want to go together with her when she goes, tonight, and we're both tired after two short nights' sleep-- so quick update for now, more later.
Cautiously optimistic about MC. W went through with IC (We both acvtually did 1 hour of IC) and says she will do more... in fact, MC wants us each to do NOTHING but IC for next 2-3 sessions for each of us. Says what we are doing as far as MC on our own is what she wants to be seeing, and we are talking and opening up more, so for now she wants to work with us on trying to break down some of the "individual" barriers and issues we each have... Assigned us some touching exercises, a good bit of talk about how in our sitch it IS going to feel awkward, and the exercises are a good way of both breaking the ice AND of "getting the awkwardness out" or "containing" it to the more deliberate setting, which, by comparison, will make the more natural, spur of the moment touching (which i am not holding back on)
seem more natural... and i think i kind of followed that.
Talked alot about W's "good girl/ bad girl" dichotomy, the pressure she puts on herself and her considering herself a bad person, and about my trust issues (and it turns out i actually have some organic trust issues and vulnerabilities that i need to work around)-- this was explored more in depth in my IC.
Also, assurances from the MC that "we are still not really all that far into this"-- a little over six months since the "A" ended, and that "it could take a while" for my W.
Also, MC asked me a lot in IC about "what i would be willing to live with" in terms of W's continued relationship with bff... and what I would be willing to "not know" about the A and still be willing to reconcile.
Much more, will try to get to in next couple of days.
Also, MC asked me a lot in IC about "what i would be willing to live with" in terms of W's continued relationship with bff... and what I would be willing to "not know" about the A and still be willing to reconcile.
I'm a little dumbfounded by that question, and I am not able to figure out why she would ask you.
I can see if she talked to you about how much you want to know, walked through how once you know you can't un-know, etc., and how knowing may affect you. But I don't think you only wanting to know "this much" should be a condition of reconciliation. I also don't think that you should not ask something that you want to know, simply because you didn't outline it in your agreement up front.
Everything else seemed positive, but that one statement makes me wondering if your W is holding back from reconciliation because she isn't ready to come clean (maybe the same reason for no confession yet). Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, if she's not ready then she's not ready, but it's still positive if she is working towards getting to that point.
I'm a little dumbfounded by that question, and I am not able to figure out why she would ask you.
Context: In one of our sessions a couple of weeks back, I had said something that upset W, not exactly what, but something that W interpreted as calling into question her commitment and motivations. At that time, MC had acknowledged that I had valid concerns but that the way I asked the question to my W was "not helpful". Flash forward to Wednesday... In my IC session, I tell MC that I see the things W is doing, but that I still have scars and trigger points and that some of these are problematic but I am not always sure how to broach them with W in a way that won't cause damage or sabotage our progress or otherwise be "not helpful".
In particular, I cite W's beach trip last july immediately following a family beach trip, where she drove out to supposedly meet bff and another gf for a girls weekend. I found out shortly thereafter that OM had been at same beach at same time staying not 3 blocks away. W maintained at the time and again the one other time I brought it up, (after our big blow-up/confrontation/reset where I discovered phone, she fessed up and broke down and broke all contact with OM and plead to "work on us") that she "had nothing to say" about that and "hadn't seen" OM there. I found and still fiND it impossible to believe, given the closeness of the R between her and OM and bff that they each did not know the other was going to be there, and I find it only slightly less implausible that they did not plan to and indeed see each other while there. But W never copped to this and I gave her at least 2 or 3 chances, explicitly, and other chances implicitly. Note that that incident preceded our "reset" and her "no contact" commitment, and so would generally be covered under the umbrella of "everything that came before"
I tell IC that girls weekends are a trigger point with me, and that, in particular, if she asked to go with bff to beach this year, which I anticipate, I am not sure I could accept that... given that W has not come clean about last years' trip. I remind IC that i value my wifes recent openness with me, that there is nothing W could tell me about the A that occurred in that pre-reset timeframe that would affect my desire to reconcile, and that when my W DID tell me gard or difficult things or confess "wrongs" to me, especially difficult ones, that there were few things that built more trust in me for her. However, conversely, W's failure to confess this one particular incident was troubling to ne, that i kept thinking about it, and that it would definitely become a big button pusher for me if W wanted to go meet bff at beach this year. IC said it is right and normal for me to have concerns, that, AFAIK, w was NOT going to try to go to beach this year, but, if she proposed that in future, I would have to decide WON I could live with her answer if she continued to deny any knowledge or contact during that July beach weekend. Additionally, given that, she said I should think then, as I always should, whether or not asking that question was liable to help or hurt our reconciliation efforts and weigh that against my own unease and piece of mind. She (MC) never advised me to not bring up issues or problems I had, thst i had yo be trur to myself and who i am, but just to 1) consider the impact before I do so, 2) don't bring such things up in anger, but consider the best way to do so if I do bring them up and 3) guage/evaluate the results afterwards.
Generally speaking, she wants us focused on the future and moving forward and what a successful reconcilliation would look like for us and focused on particular goals... colored and informed of course by what came before, but she wants primary focus on where we are going. This does not mean, she was quick to add, burying the past.
I can't help but be hopeful, since she agreed to IC. The MC/IC is sort of a mediator between the two of you. I can see how that would be beneficial.
Your W may have already told the IC about the beach trip, and that could be why she is asking you these questions. For example, if your W and OM had sex......do you want to know the worst, or could you live happier without knowing? How would it affect your interactions with your W? How would it affect your attitude and feelings toward her? I doubt you would really know, until it happens.
In my case, my H had read my computer conversations to the OM. And they were more than just a little steamy! He said his chest hurt like a heart attack. And, his health did start going downhill afterwards. I won't lie, it was hard for me to look at him, knowing that he had read everything. I wish with all my heart he had not seen it, but most of all, I wish I had never written it. As Coconut said, it can't be unseen or unheard once it's out there.
I don't think I will ever forget a LBW that was here a short time. (However, I have forgotten her name). Her H had an affair, and he ended it and reconciled with the W. She wanted to know everything about the A, and he agreed to answer all of her questions. But after she heard it, then she couldn't let it go. Her head was filled of images of her H and the OW. No matter what we said, she just couldn't deal with it. The affair was over, her H was back home, but she was the one who was tearing them apart at that point. (Some may say, no it was the H's actions that tore them apart, but you know what I mean). She left the board and we never heard anymore. It just seemed like a very sad ending, to me.
Perhaps your W feels you could not get past it, if you knew everything. She may see it as a no-win answer that will cause more damage. From what you've said about her, I can see her rationalizing how it would be a back set, and how it would be best to just press forward. IDK, I'm only guessing, but I feel that the counselor either knows....... or else she uses this line of questioning with every couple healing from an affair. And it makes sense that she would use the same format when approaching this subject.
I think you've thought about this a lot. You are the only one who knows what you can live with.......and it not affect your peace and happiness in your MR. The counselor is a professional, and based on what she has seen to be successful or failure, could be her purpose for focusing on the future instead of opening up what has already happened.
Well, I've used a lot of "maybes" today. I don't seem to be offering much, but I wanted to respond to your update. ((hugs))
Your W may have already told the IC about the beach trip, and that could be why she is asking you these questions. For example, if your W and OM had sex......do you want to know the worst, or could you live happier without knowing? How would it affect your interactions with your W? How would it affect your attitude and feelings toward her? I doubt you would really know, until it happens.
IDK. I mean, I think I could deal with the physical infidelity more than I could deal with losing her heart. I know, I know, they go hand in hand, but... I remember from last Spring, fairly early after my discovery of the A, when I was still spinning, trying to find my footing, fairly unsure of what W was doing and where, and at one point I had a dream about her and OM-- They were somewhere on a boat, and I was there, though in that way that you are sometimes in a dream where you are a "third person", like, watching a movie and not
actually there, and I witnessed them in a very tender moment, not sex, but where it was clear they were "in love" or something like it-- and that messed me up for days. Definitely moreso than the thought of them just sleeping together. Which gave rise to the question I asked my wife on 3 or 4 occasions not long after in the same timeframe: "I'm not worried so much about where you are physical, but where is your
heart", which she always answered the same: "Locked up in a little box..." At any rate, I think I had imagined/assumed sex between them at some point, and certainly the things I did hear them saying to each other were descriptive of that and bad enough... I just think the idea of her falling for him as her "soulmate" and running off with him would have been even worse. Then again, I was certain at the time of BD that they had not slept together, and I have no hard evidence that they ever did after that, though there certainly was opportunity. IDK... Trying to be as objective as possible, it probably would affect me and make it harder... I still hang on to certain things as bad memories that make if difficult to enjoy certain things or to be certain places because of associations with OM. Knowing they "did the deed" might very well make it hard for me to, um... do the same. But, like I said, if she asks to go to the beach with bff... Im not sure I will be able to say, "sure, go ahead" and not freak out a little.
Anyway... Some other tidbits from Friday's intensive sessions:
-- First two hours were joint, and we spent a lot of time looking into our respective pasts for trigger points and pre-dispositions that might affect how we interact with each other. Point was to get us more intimate with each others' pasts/memories/families/deep-dark-experiences/etc, to try to understand what made the other person tick, how best to relate/communicate with them and how best not to. Also to look for things (I think, and this is just me based on readings MC has had us do) that might have predisposed us and our marriage to an affair. MC used an exercise for this, like a bubble or egg chart that involved us picturing traumatic or impressionable moments from our early lives up until and including approximately college, dealing primarily with our families and how we were raised. Major conclusions were that trust and breaking of trust played a big role in my formative years, that trust and friendship and fellowship and family are extremely important to me... but at the same time that the flip-side of that, the "yang" if you will, is that I do not tend to trust easily and that I am prone to suspicion and cynicism. (I identify so closely with wolves for a reason-- that is the same yin/yang of that creature.) For W, it was that, due much to her upbringing, she puts almost incredible pressure on herself to "do the right thing" and to be "the good girl" even though she has some "bad girl" gravitations/urges. MC was quick to point out that the label she puts on "good girl"/"bad girl" are not necessarily apt, but are colored by the fairly strict, puritanical upbringing she received, and that W was very quick/prone to label herself "bad" or a "failure" or the like-- which was very helpful and insightful and explained a lot of the marital friction my W had previously experienced where any time I questioned or second guessed her she would get very angry/defensive and consider it an attack. She doesn't like to be "wrong" about anything because the consequences of being "wrong" even in discreet instances are that she is a "bad person". Or something like that.
--MC wants us to keep doing weekly "check ins" with each other, at a set time/place (NOT the bedroom) and not to exceed 30 minutes, to discuss how we think the MR is doing over the previous week, address any concerns, and try to cooperate and goal-set on any problems. She also wants us to do a couple of touching exercises she gave us (which I discussed above) and also to read through a workbook on affair recovery she had previously given us and pick out the exercises we thought might still be helpful (though many of them, she thought, we will already have addressed.) Other than that, she was happy with how we were engaging each other at the moment (also to keep making social/fun time for each other a regular and frequent event), and wanted to focus on IC for each of us for a couple of weeks.
--My IC consisted of me talking to MC about things I was still struggling with, mostly trust-related and some described above. Big points were to be thoughtful and deliberate when broaching sensitive/painful subjects, to be true to who i am and open to discussing things as a general rule, especially if it is something very important or hard for me (though she is always there as an IC for me to call and bounce things off of first) and to always gauge my W's responses and make note of them for future reference in best way to engage with her.
--Also in IC, MC agreed with the strong/dominant male model being a good one, that that is probably what W had herself been hinting at as being attractive, but that she did not particularly like the "Shades of Grey" movies as a model for that as they were damaging to women. (The MC is a Christian marriage/Sex therapist, for color). She was encouraged, though, that W did not seem to think too much of the movies as a whole, other than her interest and insight into why so many women were drawn to them.
--As mentioned, focusing on the future, what a "good marriage" for us would look like and shooting for that.
--Also IC, re: my wifes body image: Do not contradict or argue with her, but you can let her know it "bothers you" when she talks that way... that I can say things like "it bothers me because I can see that you believe that and that it makes you upset, but I wish that you could see what I see when I look at you."... Avoid discussing particular "trouble spots" that she is particularly sensitive about (with W it is her "belly")... try to recognize and find ways to compliment her "whole" beauty, and make her feel beautiful by the way you treat her and approach her as well. Also that women need to be told/reminded often (though not sure this necessarily applies to my W, though it sure as heck worked for OM.)
--IC , also... Said I should be taking lead and "pursuing"... finding fun things to do, even taking lead on getting her/us to counseling. Another area was in getting a new mattress (which we need but which W has balked about going shopping for).. Said I should just find a moment when we are out, things are going good, and take the lead on it: "Look, a mattress store, come on let's go look" and take her hand and drag her along...
Those were the high points. The four hours really went by fast. W still did some crying, particularly when talking about being "bad" and a "failure" and "letting people (particularly her parents) down" and, even moreso, that she knew her parents would be hurt that she never talked to them about these things... that she felt she couldn't trust her parent's response to them... and that she wasn't sure she could ever bring up any of that to them now for that reason, even as she knew they would still love her. (Example she gave was when she brought home her African-American BF in college--she, we, are both caucasion-- and her Dad just turning his back and giving both the silent treatment and how devastating that was for her-- but the hurt of disappointing them or letting them down was intense.) This is something MC said we both have in common, and that has been a problem in our MR, that we both worry excessively about other people's (particularly each others') reactions to things we might say to each other and, as a result, end up NOT saying them and NOT confiding in and NOT leaning on each other.
Also, in terms of fun stuff-- V-Day date went well. Nice cozy restaurant. Turned out she knew the chef(!) who was a patient at the clinic she works at, so that was cool. I got chauffeured luxury SUV to take us there, with champagne (stretch limo was a little over the top for the casual place we were going, so gonna keep that one in my pocket for a five-star dinner at some point) and she was plenty surprised... kept doing double takes at each new surprise, the car, the champagne. We snugged a bit in bed that night.
I was working out on Friday night in basement and she came down, dressed an made up to KILL... and said "why aren't you ready, we're going to miss all the music?" So, of course I went upstairs and showered quickly and came along. A fun, but somewhat typical night out for us... She still wont' dance with me, not sure what's up with that. She said the one time a few weeks ago "If you're not gonna ask me to dance, im just gonna go out there myself" but the three times I have asked since she has just said "no" or, "no, not now".
This evening she was going to get her passport, so I had to tell her where we were going in May for her birthday (Cancun). She has kept asking, so she is interested, but she was a bit downcast "I only have two and a half months to get ready, I'll never be able to wear my cute spring/summer clothes by then".
That's basically everything for now. This the first "early Friday" for her that she hasn't gone out but just came home.
Fire away! (Am I "piecing" yet? Seems like maybe, but still unsure.)
I for sure think you are piecing. I also want to take this opportunity to proclaim the fact that I called it months ago! Lol. I'm not always right about this stuff and even more rarely go on a limb and predict it, but months ago I said I thought your W was coming back and was trying / even though some, even a few of our rock stars here, didn't see it or were not so sure.
I've had a good feeling about your sitch for a while now and think you've got a real shot.
Now, I have to say I have the same sense, same gut feeling about my next comment. I hope this time I'm wrong and only say this so you are prepared. I think your W was intimate with OM. Did they have intercourse sex, not sure but there is no way they just talked about it. At very least they kissed and touched. Oral is also likely if not actual sex. Your W may never admit it for the same reasons she's feeling she's already let others down, including you. It would just be odd that all of this went on, meeting while away, etc. and not have gone beyond hanging out. I just don't buy it. I also don't think it happened a lot or often but I, betting it happened. Further, I think she has confessed this to your C or the C suspects it herself. That's why she's asked what she's asked.
I hope that's not a deal breaker for you, even if I am correct and it is true. So very few of us even got the chance you are getting. It's still going to be a long road home, but I really do think you are firmly on the road and W is with you more and more everyday!
Oh good, more update. I thought surely there was more to come!
IDK. I mean, I think I could deal with the physical infidelity more than I could deal with losing her heart. I know, I know, they go hand in hand,
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think they do go hand in hand, except in really healthy relationships. That's why some EA's can last a long time without having the skin on skin sex act. It plays to the emotional needs, rather than the physical. But I like what you said about dealing with a PA better than losing her heart. I find that to be very sweet (for lack of a better description ATM) and tender.
I asked my wife on 3 or 4 occasions not long after in the same timeframe: "I'm not worried so much about where you are physical, but where is your heart", which she always answered the same: "Locked up in a little box..."
If the IC can help her figure out what this ^^^^^^^ means, then I'll bet there will be real growth in the MR. There is something deep in that statement, "locked up in a little box".........what is the secret behind those words? It sounds as if she has a lot of trust issues, too. She is afraid to give her heart to anyone, so she keeps it locked up in a little box. (I should have gone into psychology.........not b/c I am smart about it, but b/c I find it so interesting).
If both of you are afraid to trust........then I am surprised there are not more problems in the MR. It may have a lot to do with how much or little she tells you about the A. So far, it has been very little that has actually been discussed, right? She may not believe you could completely forgive her........or if it were reversed, she could forgive you of the same actions.
For W, it was that, due much to her upbringing, she puts almost incredible pressure on herself to "do the right thing" and to be "the good girl" even though she has some "bad girl" gravitations/urges. MC was quick to point out that the label she puts on "good girl"/"bad girl" are not necessarily apt, but are colored by the fairly strict, puritanical upbringing she received, and that W was very quick/prone to label herself "bad" or a "failure" or the like-- which was very helpful and insightful and explained a lot of the marital friction my W had previously experienced where any time I questioned or second guessed her she would get very angry/defensive and consider it an attack. She doesn't like to be "wrong" about anything because the consequences of being "wrong" even in discreet instances are that she is a "bad person". Or something like that.
Interesting, and it makes sense. Is your W the first born child? (The birth order of the children is an interesting subject). Maybe I brought this up in the past. Anyway, It is often the traits of a first born child to try very hard to please their parents. First born children are more likely to be the "good son or daughter", whereas their sibling might be the "problem child". If she raised in a very strict or religious environment......or if her parents tended to be critical, it could cause her some internal conflict.
When I was growing up, I was often told I needed to be an example for others. This was mostly related to the religious upbringing. Back then, the term "role model" was not used, or I didn't hear it. I also grew up when it still taboo to lose your virginity before your wedding, and mothers would stress more to the D about the importance of being a good girl, than actually talking to them about sex. So, I can identify with your W in some ways. I didn't have a problem being a good girl, maybe b/c I didn't have urges.....lol. I was a good girl right up till I had an A!
I also understand her not wanting her parents to know anything about her feelings or the A, etc. It killed me that my mother knew. When she passed away, it pulled up a lot of guilt. And then when my daughter passed away.....the same thing again. B/c I felt I had disappointed them greatly. I didn't doubt they loved me, but I was never able to get beyond the feeling I had failed them as a a Christian daughter and Christian mother. That may not make sense to some people, but that's the only way I know how to describe it. I could not help but question if their respect for me was gone. Even when you know you are loved and forgiven by your family, it is hard b/c I think there is a part down deep inside that you just can never quite forgive yourself.
I even went to an IC after I ended my A. The first thing she told me was that I had done nothing wrong. I did not agree, and I did not return.
Also IC, re: my wifes body image: Do not contradict or argue with her, but you can let her know it "bothers you" when she talks that way... that I can say things like "it bothers me because I can see that you believe that and that it makes you upset, but I wish that you could see what I see when I look at you."... Avoid discussing particular "trouble spots" that she is particularly sensitive about (with W it is her "belly")... try to recognize and find ways to compliment her "whole" beauty, and make her feel beautiful by the way you treat her and approach her as well. Also that women need to be told/reminded often (though not sure this necessarily applies to my W, though it sure as heck worked for OM.)
Yes, I agree completely. My H would say, "You look nice". Nice?! Nice??? That's what a H calls a compliment? But I could contact the OM, and it was, "Oh baby! You are smoking hot!" Now, that's what a woman likes to hear! Not that "You look nice" cr@p.
IC , also... Said I should be taking lead and "pursuing"... finding fun things to do, even taking lead on getting her/us to counseling. Another area was in getting a new mattress (which we need but which W has balked about going shopping for).. Said I should just find a moment when we are out, things are going good, and take the lead on it: "Look, a mattress store, come on let's go look" and take her hand and drag her along...
Yes, I agree. I would be thrilled if my H would plan something for us to do. Don't wait till a special occasion. I hate for calendars to dictate when a H should buy something for his W, or take her somewhere special. It doesn't have to be that big of a deal. If he will just be in charge of planning an evening once in a while, that would be wonderful.
Like I've said before, you are still thinking like a LBH, instead of more like one in piecing. You can always pull back if you get a cool reception. If she secretly wishes to be thrown down on the bed and have your way with her........then I'll bet she wishes you would do this other stuff, too. When was the last time you called her and asked for a date? Wives love that kind of stuff. It makes us feel young, attractive, and sometimes, a little frisky.
. Keep it light and fun. Don't get serious, and you won't feel the awkwardness as much.
I'm glad the counselor was pleased with your progress. Give yourself a pat on the back, b/c it has not been an easy journey getting to this place in the road. Many couples do not make it this far. I will say it again, I feel more hopeful since she agreed to go to IC.
What were her spirits like on the way back from the sessions? It must have been exhausting, after putting in that much time in one day.
What were her spirits like on the way back from the sessions? It must have been exhausting, after putting in that much time in one day.
She was quieter than the past couple of times with intensives, but, then again, this was her first real, full-length, FTF IC session. Coming in combo with the intensive joint sessions, it probably was tiring. Wouldn't say she was in a "negative" place, just not quite as talkative as she had been on the way down or in previous sessions.
We've decompressed for a couple of days, so Ima broach future scheduling of IC and the exercises today.
We had to cancel the get-away weekend planned for this weekend due to weather (we'd been going to go skiing-- I'll have to come up with something else for a coming weekend.)
Oh, and since you asked, W is, in fact, the first born of three, and she definitely has talked about feeling the pressure to be the good, responsible one and set a good example and how she feels like her sibs got away with more than she did.
Hoosjim, this all seems very, very positive. I'm proud of you, and your patience, and proud of what to appears to be your wife's slowly increasing commitment and work! Even when I'm in the dumps, I like catching up on your thread.
she definitely has talked about feeling the pressure to be the good, responsible one and set a good example and how she feels like her sibs got away with more than she did.
I remember an incident that took place right before my 40th birthday, and my sibling and I had a little spat. My father told me that I should make the first move to patch things up, even though he did not think I was the one in the wrong. Here I was nearly 40 years old and I said, "Why is it me that always has to be the one to make the first move"? Sounded real mature, right? And his answer was, "Because you are the oldest". I wanted to pull my hair out in frustration. I said, "I've heard that all my life, and I still don't know why she can get away with doing wrong but I have to continue setting the right example".
My two granddaughters are like watching history repeat itself. Same age difference, personalities, etc. And, I see the oldest girl having to do all the chores and be responsible for so much, and she is a good girl.........while her sister sits around and does nothing, gets away with murder. Well, guess which one I take up for?
But yes, a lot of pressure is put on the first born to be the "perfect" one. I use to ask my parents why they made so much difference between my sister and I, and they said they had to learn how on me. They even admitted to being too strict b/c they wanted me to near perfect. By the time sister came along, they realized their mistake and slacked up with her.......but I think they slacked too much.
Anyway, it is interesting to see how that same scenario is played out in other families.
Fire away! (Am I "piecing" yet? Seems like maybe, but still unsure.)
I will admit that I was not as confident as Don H. When you told about me about the jewelry, and a few other things about the same time......I was very concerned. But now that she is putting forth effort and seeing the MC/IC, I am very hopeful. And, yes........I would say you are piecing! When both parties are committed and putting forth effort in doing the necessary work, they are definitely piecing, IMHO.
So, I hope you will shift gears from that mindset of a LBH to one in piecing. I hope that takes some pressure off you and you can relax a little. Have fun planing big things and simple things.........and sometimes, do something on the spur of the moment. Just never fall back into those old ways.
Some of my best times were planning little "special nights" with my H. I had been reading this book that was telling women how they should change things up, so the H would not become bored at his own address. I noticed one morning as he was leaving for work how his shoulders appeared to be carry a lot of weight. I decided I was going to perk things up that evening. I got busy and arranged for the kids to spend the night with their grandparents. Then I went to the store to buy his favorite food to prepare for dinner. That night came home and opened to door to see a beautiful set table with candlights, fresh flowers, and his favorite cooked meal. But he wasn't paying that too much attention. His focus was on the poised brunette who was wearing a sexy halter top, short-shorts, and high heels (which was not my normal attire). The living room looked as if I had tried to decorate like.......well, I'm not sure. I had an air mattress in the middle of the floor, covered with silky sheets and big pillows, and something red thrown over the lamp shades. I had even picked up a little inexpensive gift for him to open, with a card To the Best Husband in the World. He forgot all about his tiring day, and we had a lot of fun that night. It was no special occasion, but I decided we didn't need a calendar to tell us when we could celebrate each other. He kept asking what got into me, and why was I doing all of that for him.......and I told him it was my way of showing him how much I appreciate him working so hard to provide for our family. Neither of us could tell you the date or even the year, it's been so long ago.......but we will never forget the experience. That was the first of many to follow, and with each one, I became a little more daring and creative.
I think it was great you gave her the romantic off the chart valentine's celebration without putting pressure on her for sex. It will help her relax for the next special event and finally the two of you will ease back into intimacy without feeling so awkward. And your counselor said something I think is important. Don't go into it all serious and tense. That puts too much pressure on you and her. Make it fun and relaxed as possible.
You said she didn't like surprises, but don't you think that is when it involves other people seeing her before she has time to dress and look her best? When it just something between the two of you......how does she respond?
I hope the next six weeks will be filled with little simple surprises that show you have stepped up and took charge of the evenings. Maybe not every night, but how about once a week? Some of us may even be able to come up with some ideas. But I don't want you stealing my halter top, shorts, and high heels. As soon as my H's heart gets stronger, I'm plan to wear it again.
I will admit that I was not as confident as Don H. When you told about me about the jewelry, and a few other things about the same time......I was very concerned. But now that she is putting forth effort and seeing the MC/IC, I am very hopeful. And, yes........I would say you are piecing! When both parties are committed and putting forth effort in doing the necessary work, they are definitely piecing, IMHO.
So, I hope you will shift gears from that mindset of a LBH to one in piecing. I hope that takes some pressure off you and you can relax a little.
Sandi, everyone... I just have to say "thanks" again to y'all (giving myself away a little bit geographically there
). Don't know what i would have done through all of these months without this board, the DB-ing philosophy, my DB coach. Everyone so helpful and pulling for me-- even when that did entail tough love and 2x4s. It really meant alot and has been a critical component in my growth, and, in the movement of my MR to a place, where, despite all the odds and factors seemingly stacked against it, we have a legitimate chance to "make this work." I know we are far from out of the woods, and that we have much, much work still to do-- you don't fix 10 years of bad marriage and hurt in 6 months-- but i have hope. Faith has been a big, big part of that, and i continue to pray daily for guidance, for grace, for patience... and i think that all of you folks have been part of the answer to my prayers. Thank you.
And I have been able to relax some. Little things, some faith, idunno, i just have. W is at grocery store now, a trip which, not three months ago, would have had me worrying, wringing my hands, wishing i'd put the tracker on her car. Now, I can sit her telling my online friends "thanks" and not stressing about her whereabouts. Does that mean i am confident we will fully reconcile? No. But i am confident that, at least for now, the place my W is in is a place with me. (See, i even thought about putting little "" marks around "with", but didn't
)
Alot of that laundry list of thing that i threw out there back before christmas were me "spinning"... not all, and there were some concerning things there, but i have come to realize that you can't view every single thing in a negative light and assume the worst. Sometimes... even most times, you need to, as MWD counsels, "act as if..."
W wears the jewelry i gave her more than any others currently, and as for the wedding ring, i really believe after having it discussed, twice now, in MC, that she genuninely resents me having lost mine and not having replaced it. So, Ima take the lead on that, as some on here suggested, and just not discuss it but, rather, in the next few weeks, go buy myself a replacement and start wearing it... for me. and for us. If nothing else, should be good fodder for our "talks', LOL.
I think it was great you gave her the romantic off the chart valentine's celebration without putting pressure on her for sex. It will help her relax for the next special event and finally the two of you will ease back into intimacy without feeling so awkward. And your counselor said something I think is important. Don't go into it all serious and tense. That puts too much pressure on you and her. Make it fun and relaxed as possible.
I think is a great descriptor of the V-Day date. (actually day after-- Wednesday was Ash Wednesday and so a day of fasting and going to mass for us-- though i did send her tropical flowers and a nice card on the 14th telling her i was looking forward to the next night). At any rate, she continually seemed surprised/dumbfounded as i first brought out nice champagne, then the chauffered car, then the restaurant she'd been wanting to go to, etc. Surprised, but pleased at the same time. And also, yes, awkward and, i would probably say, even a bit "shy". But i think it was a good ice breaker. Only drawback was that we did not get to do the weekend away at the ski resort this weekend--rain washed us out, but i told her we'd be taking a rain check. Now i need to come up with another weekend since skiing season rapidly ending, at least in our neck of the woods, with warmer weather.
Last night we had a nice and kind of surprising night. S18, the one with TS, had a rough night. Lost his basketball jersey as we were getting ready to go to his game... he had a near complete meltdown, missed the game, fought/argued with us.. W said, under her breath but i heard, "now our whole evenining is ruined,too". (We really enjoy going to watch his games.) At any rate, I "handled" S18, was stern but understanding, and he eventually left the house, still angry, to go talk to his coach. But when he came back, very apologetic, gave us both hugs (he is the "cuddly" one of my two boys, unlike S19 who has an ice-man exterior but is still pretty mushy inside) and said he was sorry. That meant a lot to my W.
So, though we hadn't planned it, i went upstairs and changed and told w (who already looked gorgeous) "c'mon, let's get out of here for a bit." And we headed for our local neighborhood pub which has live music on Saturday and where we hadn't been in a little while. She was quiet at first, but warmed up quickly. We had a very good evening with lots of good conversation. A few tidbits: We got talking about movies and actors and she said "Well, you do have a bit of George Clooney in you", and i mentioned a movie we had once seen with him and J-Lo in it, and how good their chemistry was, and I was like "Well, you have quite a bit of J-Lo in you" and she said "darn right i do! Just need to work on this body a little before we get to the beach.". I'd've said something to that, but then she immediately said: "Hey, we're gonna rent that movie when we get home, no matter how late it is." Which we did. When we got home while i was renting the movie (we have a projector and screen in our TV room which gives a pretty good movie experience) she went upstairs and changed into a set of pajamas--not sexy but very cute, flannel-- that she had gotten from my Mom at Christmas and not previously worn. So we kind of cuddled up a little on the couch-- even though she doesn't object when i put my arm around her in bed, she still wont lean into my shoulder with arm around her in that sitting on the couch context, but she is gradually getting closer-- put her feet up in my lap or alternately under my legs and let me caress them and her lower leg. It was a nice evening.
A couple of noteworthy things she said while we were out:
On the subject of the motorcycle driving class she has wanted to take forever, like, for years, but keeps putting off (and remember that OM had a bike, grrrr....) she said "Well maybe
you should take it with me... that way i can cheat off of you on the written test so i make sure i pass, since i am terrible at tests (smiling.)" This is the first time she has ever indicated she might be willing to take that class as anything other than a "just her" or "just her and a gf" thing (at one point she had been saying she was going to do it with bff. IDK, i found it encouraging.
On the subject of MC and our counselor-- She (W) has this thing about slow, "sappy" songs (she doesn't like them-- "gag, gag"). She has mentioned this in some of our recent conversations and said she thinks it goes hand in hand with her whole commitment issue... and i tend to agree. So, at any rate, last night she mentions that again during a slow song at the pub and says "What do you think MC would make of THAT" And i said, "not sure, you should ask her." And then she says, "IDK, I'm not sure she's my girl-- she asks too many questions, not enough answers.... i need answers." Kind of smiling at this as if joking, but IDK
At any rate, I "handled" S18, was stern but understanding, and he eventually left the house, still angry, to go talk to his coach. But when he came back, very apologetic, gave us both hugs (he is the "cuddly" one of my two boys, unlike S19 who has an ice-man exterior but is still pretty mushy inside) and said he was sorry. That meant a lot to my W.
Are you referring to your handling S18 that meant a lot, or him apologizing? I don't remember us discussing much about this subject, but this is a good place to throw it in. Even if the dad has not been the disciplinarian with the boys, when they are in middle school through high school graduation (and beyond).......I think the dad needs to step in and deal with the son......like you handled it with S18. Unless the dad is unreasonably strict or hard on his sons, they need him to deal with them......instead of watching him sit back waiting on mom to handle the boys. In fact, I think some boys give their mother a harder time, once they get as big, or taller, than her. Whether in a rebellious manner, b/c dad is not being a role model, or he sweet talks his mother......he thinks he'll wear her down. Typically, she is going to be softer on the sons more than the daughters. (I know you have no daughters, but for anyone who does). Dads know what his son will face as a man......just as mom knows what the girl will face as a grown woman. Daddy may pet his D when she has the cramps and wants to stay home from school. But mom is going to tell her, " Well guess what, sweetheart? I have the cramps, too! So get out of bed cause I am going to work, and you are going to school". (I heard this while watching T.D. Jakes). We tend to be a little tougher on the same sex child. Which makes sense.
I said all of that to say your W probably appreciated you stepping up and dealing with the situation in a firm, but caring way. Good job!
"Well, you do have a bit of George Clooney in you", and i mentioned a movie we had once seen with him and J-Lo in it, and how good their chemistry was, and I was like "Well, you have quite a bit of J-Lo in you" and she said "darn right i do!
That is really good interaction. Flirtatious, natural, and spunky on her part. And your response was great, with no pressure or implied expectations. This is what I was hoping to see, if you could stop being so tense.
while i was renting the movie (we have a projector and screen in our TV room which gives a pretty good movie experience) she went upstairs and changed into a set of pajamas--not sexy but very cute, flannel-- that she had gotten from my Mom at Christmas and not previously worn.
Good ole, safe, flannel pajamas. Now this is just a shot in the dark, but if things have warmed by the time you take her on the birthday trip........and by warm, I don't mean the weather........why not buy her a beautiful nightgown and have it wrapped nicely? If things have not progressed far enough (if she's still not leaning into your shoulder), at least buy her a pair of silky pajamas. You could even be looking for a funny birthday card that matched the gift. Maybe when you give it to her, say something like, "I really need to talk to my mom about her taste in sleepwear".
Keep a certain flow going between you. I realize there will be times one of you will be dead tired or not in the mood to flirt and play around. Life just isn't a party every day. But as I explained previously, we can create good times instead of waiting for them to "just appear" out of nothing, or b/c the calendar says to do it on a certain date.. Maybe your new pet name for her should be "J-Lo".
This is the first time she has ever indicated she might be willing to take that class as anything other than a "just her" or "just her and a gf" thing (at one point she had been saying she was going to do it with bff. IDK, i found it encouraging.
Well, it would be something new you could enjoy together. Better you, than BFF. And I was wondering, since she makes references to her weight........,have you thought about some other activity together, like going to the gym, rock climbing, hiking, etc.? I know H's have to approach this area very carefully, b/c you don't want her thinking you are implying she is getting out of shape. (Ugh! Women!). But you have such a way with words, I bet you could approach to sound like you just want to do more things "together".
On the subject of MC and our counselor-- She (W) has this thing about slow, "sappy" songs (she doesn't like them-- "gag, gag"). She has mentioned this in some of our recent conversations and said she thinks it goes hand in hand with her whole commitment issue... and i tend to agree.
I don't particularly care for the slow, sad, sappy songs, either. I need something to speed up my heart.........not slow it down!
I have not watched a sad, chick movie in years! If I know in advance it's any kind of sad story, I won't watch it. Who needs it?
Anyway........it all sounds good. I think both of you needed to see the other one putting effort into some things......maybe just in different ways. Neither of you can see the process the other one is doing in their own heart.
((hugs))
Are you referring to your handling S18 that meant a lot, or him apologizing? ...
I said all of that to say your W probably appreciated you stepping up and dealing with the situation in a firm, but caring way.
When I typed it, I meant his apology and his hug but, now that you mention it, I am sure she appreciated the way I handled it...in fact even just that I
did "handle it." One of her "knocks" on me leading up to BD and then in the immediate aftermath, and, indeed, for several years, was that she was doing all the work and all the parenting, and that she was the "bad guy" with the kids. As to the work, she is absolutely right... at least for the earlier years of our troubles. I was sick, in constant pain, probably borderline depressed. I just didn't "do" a lot. She did the lawn/yard work and anything else that required heavy lifting or exertion, and my "absence" somewhat extended to parenting the kids. Not that I just completely tuned out, but I was definitely more wishy-washy with them, and definitely more likely to be the one they went to for an exception or the like. Not sure how all that came about... it was a very gradual and incremental process, but by the time it reached it's nadir my W was (in my eyes) a cranky, shrewish, abrasive W who was too verbally sharp with the kids (And with me) and who felt the kids "hated her" and that she didn't have any kind of relationship with them. For my part, I felt that they didn't have a mother figure and that she was not being the nurturing influence/role that all kids need from a mom. Chicken and egg, I guess-- I mean, her relationship getting that way with them obviously was in some respects driven by my own deficiencies and neglect, but, whatever, it just kind of panned out that way-- perfect storm I suppose.
In the last, say, 2-3 years prior to BD, my health had improved markedly, I was again taking responsibility for the mowing, fixing, hauling, manly house tasks but... as far as the relationship dynamics the damage had already been done. It took BD to shake things up and get us to a place where we were assuming our proper roles in the family (she is now definitely much more the empathetic, nurturing Mom and I am definitely now "the heavy"... but in a just and caring and fatherly way) and to get us, eventually, to the point where we are now truly "partners" in raising the kids.
At any rate, I know she appreciates that in me now (she has told me so on more than one occasion) and also that she really values any warm interactions she has with the boys. S18, the one with tourettes, is very warm and demonstrative in general, always says "I love you mom", etc. The other one, S19, my college boy,not so much, at least yet. His relationship became very strained with his mother during HS-- he had some mild reading impediment and dyslexia-type stuff in addition to his OCD/anxiety disorder going on that made his studies a real challenge. All of that put a real strain on the relationship, and I don't think S19 (who also is not as demonstrative to begin with as S18) has gotten past that. I also more than half suspect that HE suspects that something was going on between my wife and OM.
why not buy her a beautiful nightgown and have it wrapped nicely? If things have not progressed far enough (if she's still not leaning into your shoulder), at least buy her a pair of silky pajamas.
You know, it's funny, back when we were first dating/not-dating (we had several starts and stops) but before she had fully... committed(If that's the right word?) to a romantic relationship with me (She would always say "we're just 'hanging out'"), she called me up one night out of the blue and said, "hey, my roommate's not here and I'm trying to study for this test.." (she was in grad school at the time) "...do you want to come over and help me study?" Well, I was crazy about her so, of course, I said yes i'll be right over. So, when she comes to the door, the lights are turned somewhat low and she is wearing this set of silk pajamas, bright blue that set off her eyes, and which are long-legged and long armed but, being silk, accentuated her figure wonderfully. As soon as I come in she turns around and gives me this kiss and im like, just Wow wow wow. Long story short, we didn't ML that night (though man did I try-- she just wasn't going to do that on a "first date"), but I did stay over, and we stayed up very late talking, making out, etc. (No studying
) After that, when we were more, <ahem> "active", I would always want her to wear those because it reminded me of her answering the door that night in them. At any rate, because of that, whenever I think of her and silk pajamas I think of anything BUT "stodgy" and "not sexy". Sadly, she doesn't have that set anymore...
Keep a certain flow going between you. I realize there will be times one of you will be dead tired or not in the mood to flirt and play around. Life just isn't a party every day. But as I explained previously, we can create good times instead of waiting for them to "just appear" out of nothing, or b/c the calendar says to do it on a certain date.. Maybe your new pet name for her should be "J-Lo".
Yeah, when we were dating I used to constantly be racking my brain for fun/flirty things to do with her. Need to keep that up, here, just "go with it." One of the things I want to do now is to "buy her a drink from across the bar." She had mentioned this to me a couple of times before, way back when, and did so again Saturday night that she had never had a man "buy her a drink" from across the bar. She said her first year in college someone tried and she turned him down because she didn't drink at that point, but, aside from that, she's never had someone buy or even offer to buy her one. Now, given her looks I find this and always have found this very hard to believe but she maintains that it was always her friends who got bought drinks when she was out, and never her, even to this day. So, I am going to find a way/place/time to do that, but I also want to make sure it's not creepy or stalker-ish. Maybe "drop by" a bar the next time she is out with friends. She has an after dinner beer about once every other week with one of her work friends-- a very nice, sweet, Christian,single mom who is an excellent influence on my W... and I hope it stays that way-- and obviously she meets up with <gag> bff from time to time. I just think that would be a cool kind of thing to do.
Anyone else have any cool date or flirty things they want to offer up or suggest and im all ears.
I actually was thinking of referring to her as "J-Lo" in some of our flirtier moments. Helps that her name actually starts with a "J"
Well, it would be something new you could enjoy together. Better you, than BFF. And I was wondering, since she makes references to her weight........,have you thought about some other activity together, like going to the gym, rock climbing, hiking, etc.? I know H's have to approach this area very carefully, b/c you don't want her thinking you are implying she is getting out of shape.
I have ALWAYS wanted her to go to the gym with me, even when we were just dating. Not because I ever thought she was fat our out of shape, but just because I thought it would be a fun thing to do together. Of course, now, she doesn't consider working out "fun", even though she was a fitness trainer for a while back when we first met. However, interesting dynamic, for the last several days (and maybe it is just because she knows we have this trip in may, now) but she HAS been working out... and in front of me. She's never really been willing to do that before, but a couple nights back she brought dumbells up to the room and was lifting them while I was getting ready for bed, and then a couple of times yesterday she made it a point to be down in the TV room when I was there doing some leg lifts and stretches and calisthenics. (She can still do full splits-- always has been able to which was why she was such a good hurdler-- and it drives me up the WALL.)
I don't particularly care for the slow, sad, sappy songs, either. I need something to speed up my heart.........not slow it down! grin I have not watched a sad, chick movie in years! If I know in advance it's any kind of sad story, I won't watch it. Who needs it?
You know, its funny, she says that about the songs, but then she'll sit there and watch hours of Hallmark channel sometimes with those sappy movies (Still does that some) or, in the past, read stacks of those romance novels (hasn't actually read one of those in a while.)
Anyhoo, thanks again all, I will update as appropriate. Keep those date and flirtiness ideas coming!
Ya know, if I were you, I'd been checking out the VS catalog for a pair of those blue PJs. It's not overly sexual and will need the correct timing - like a getaway weekend - but I can't help but think it might be a good idea that Sandy came up with there. Getting something similar to back when you first started dating might be good too.
It sure seems like your W is giving you ideas all over the place. Are you both hearing them and also willing to act? Again, timing is a must but she's throwing them out to you for a reason - especially when she does it multiple times. A drink across the bar, some 50 shades-esq moves. The right timing along with light and playful is the ticket.
Also, the more and more you tell us, the more it all makes sense - like the wedding ring thing. Checking out, little to no sex, her having to do lawn work and take the lead with the kids. Add it all up and you really have to ask why not versus why she has done some of the things she has. It never excuses having OM but it really seems to make a lot of sense why you are in the position you are in after learning more and her reactions to it.
Slow and steady. It's still going to be a long road back home but you are clearly piecing!
One of her "knocks" on me leading up to BD and then in the immediate aftermath, and, indeed, for several years, was that she was doing all the work and all the parenting, and that she was the "bad guy" with the kids.
My exact words!
I mean, her relationship getting that way with them obviously was in some respects driven by my own deficiencies and neglect, but, whatever, it just kind of panned out that way-- perfect storm I suppose.
My H wasn't abseent, he just would not step up and help with the parenting. It had a big affect on me. He had been great when they were babies, but as they were growing up, he did not help me with the discipline side and teaching the kids to be accountable/responsible. Even when our child was diagnosed with diabetes, he never tried to learn anything about the disease.......or even how to give a shot of insulin. It was all on me, and I resented it. When the teenage rebellion hit, I was the one who applied tough love.
If there are two parents in the home, then they need to be a team. Sometimes I wondered if it would be as difficult as a single mother trying to parent, than having a H who acted as if he was just along for the ride and never took the wheel. It made me feel like I had to be more strict, to make up the difference in his softness. It hurts to think back on some of the times I had to be hard on them, but they grew up to be wonderful adults and everyone speaks highly of them. Would they have done the same if I had been as soft as my H? Well, I obviously didn't think so, especially through the rebellious teenage years. The one with diabetes gave me a run for my money. I definitely felt the weight. I was probably a cranky shrew, too, b/c I was exhausted and angry.
So, maybe I can empathize with your W, having a child with special needs.....and not getting as much support as she wanted. She must have felt as if they were twins, being born so close together! Thank God you have your eyes wide open.
So, changing gears here, maybe you can find a pair of silk pajamas in the shade of blue like she wore on the study night. Have you ever shared with her your thoughts about that night? If not, save it until she opens the new ones. I would have given nearly anything to hear my H talk about some of his thoughts about me during our pre-dating times. It may really turn her on to hear that story. Who knows?
About getting more ideas, you can google it. IDK, if you'll get what you are wanting.....but it's worth a shot.
Okay, so, brief "Amusing(?) Anecdote of the Day":
Today my W had to go in early to the office (standard for a Tuesday for her), so by the time I was up and moving around she had already left. I have a couple of important meetings today, so I am dialed in on that and trying to focus on shaking out the cobwebs and getting ready and my phone buzzes. So I look down at the front page screen, you know on Android phones the one that gives you a brief summary of everything that's "open" as well as snippets from incoming calls/messages? I see "message from MrsHoosJim: Good luck today! I love you!" My heart flips. I could have just responded to the message from the front screen but something prompted me to open up "messenger" first...
It was in the "group text" with my S19 off at college, but that doesn't show up on the front screen-- front screen only shows who it's from (in this case my W)... It was a message for our son, LOL
And I was
this close to just texting back: "K, thanks! Love you too!" before I opened up the messenger...
Ah, well. Freudian slip, perhaps? It'll happen eventually...
And I was this close to just texting back: "K, thanks! Love you too!" before I opened up the messenger...
Now that would be funny, b/c it would have her wheels spinning. If it's not too late, maybe do it anyway. See if she asks you about it. If she does, then you can explain how you thought the message was to you, and if she doesn't.......it may give her a thought or two.
So, do you guys say "ILY"?
Ok, so we have a telemedicine session, joint, this evening, and there are a couple of issues that might come up that I wanted folks' take on.
First of all, quick note, our conversation got started last night when we were discussing how to handle the appointment time we scheduled for tonight. We had blocked it off with the counselor, but not specified whether or not we were going to handle it as a joint session or whether one of us was going to take it as an individual. At some point, wife says to me, "you know, every time we've gone down there in the past for the intentions, you have been very talkative on the way back. This time, it seemed like you were very quiet and I was wondering the whole way back if something was wrong." Now, the funny thing about this, is that I was thinking the same thing about her on the way back, and I told her so last night. Know that there was nothing inordinately traumatic about the sessions last week, nor were there any big Revelations. It just seemed like both of us we're waiting on the other one to say something on the way back and neither one did.
Anyway, first issue,somewhat minor, and it actually came up when we were talking last night, and was, incidentally, the "immediate" reason we were discussing the use of the counseling session for Wednesday (today):
Periodically, and for about the past year and a half or so, she has been staying after work with friends to talk, decompress, and share a bottle of wine. Sometimes these get-togethers involve most of her office, and even a couple outside of the office friends of one of the doctors. Other times, though, and on two or three occasions, it has been as few as her, her close work girlfriend, and one of the male doctors there, and probably an equal number of times has just been those three plus one additional girl with whom W is friendly at office. This male doctor is the one who has always provided the wine for these get-togethers as he keeps a stock in his office. My wife's girlfriend is significantly younger, late twenties, and a single mom. The doctor is our age, and married. I am friendly with and like both the doctor and his wife, and, over the past couple of months, as wife has increasingly let me into the circle, I have become friends with her work girlfriend, who is very nice, and very Christian, and at least seems to be very interested in helping W and I reconnect. (She was the one W and I spent late NY Eve together with after W brought up the idea because GF was alone-- her family lives in New York-- and "had no one" to be with that night-- it was actually a fun and good evening)
During my wife's affair, these after work get togethers were a trigger point for me, because she would frequently be very late getting home from work without further explanation, or, at best, she would vaguely say "I am just going to hang out for a little bit after work with everyone and I'll be back soon" but then she wouldn't be back soon at all and would never update me by phone or text. I am uncertain as to whether or not she ever used those blocks of time at any point to see the OM, but I think it is probably likely, all things considered. Now, wife and I have discussed these get-togethers fairly extensively, as well as, obviously, the affair, and she understands and accepts that they are a trigger point for me, and, accordingly, when she does go to them, always lets me know ahead of time as well as letting me know who is going to be there, and then she always updates me via phone or text when she is going to be late. A couple of times they have even called me from the get-together and joked around and talked with me on the phone. (And work gf also sort of obliquely invited me last time saying "you should really come by and hang out with us, Hoosjim"... though W has not extended a similar invite and I have not brought it up.
On a couple of occasions previously, I have implied to W that I am not completely comfortable with the dynamic, for two reasons: One, that her being late home from work was often code for her seeing OM, or at least that there were many times where she just "disappeared into a black hole and I had no idea" and, Two, that I am not sure I was completely comfortable with the dynamic. The latter concern was always voiced in terms of "So what does Doctor's Wife think about him hanging out after work, by himself, drinking wine, with two or more attractive women, in his office?"
Now, let me reiterate that W is "friends" with both the Doctor and his W, that when we were at the Christmas party that was at Dr's house, Dr.'s wife got fairly tipsy and my wife spent a lot of time hanging out with her and taking care of her and keeping her out of trouble and putting her to bed, etc., so they clearly like each other. (And, yes, this is also the doctor that she gave the warm hug to on the way out the door that made me a bit resentful-- and I have told her that as well). I also know doctor (who seems to me to be, and by all accounts and from what most people say is a "good man") and wife and am friendly with them, though I don't see them enough probably to properly call them "friends", and W has suggested us all "going out" together in the recent past on a couple of occasions. Further color is that I believe, based on observation and from scattered and somewhat vague "scuttlebutt" that Dr's marriage might be somewhat strained because of his W's drinking... which is why he keeps his wine at his office.
Anyhoo, W calls me yesterday afternoon from work and says "Work GF and Dr. are asking me if I can stay after for a bit tomorrow to hang out, but I know we had scheduled that MC session... are we going to do that as a joint or as IC?" I am at work and she is at work, and she is being somewhat discrete about our sitch as am I so I tell her: well, let's keep it on the books and talk about it this evening when we get home" and she says "Okay, that's my priority, but I wanted to make sure."
So, when we are talking about how to configure the session tonight, and going over some of the stuff MC gave us to go over, we have the talk about why neither of us talked and neither of us brought up the homework that MC assigned (though it turns out W had reviewed the materials on her own after last week's session) until 6 days later. After we decide we will do it as a joint, I tell W (and maybe this was a mistake) "You know, in the spirit of complete honesty, I have to tell you something... I am not completely comfortable with the dynamic of you staying after work with a married man and one other girl, and I kind of wonder, as you know, what Dr's wife thinks of it..." To which W responds "She (doctor's wife, who periodically works in that office as a nurse/aide and who on a couple of occasions has herself attended these after work get-togethers) has never said anything that I know of so AFAIK she is okay with it" and "It's never behind closed doors, There's almost always other people there as well... our other friend a lot, and Dr. X and Dr. Y sometimes pop their heads in, and then last week girl 3 and girl 4 were there, too... This is the one thing, apart from seeing bff probably once a month these days, that I have of "my own"... I don't see what's so unusual or troubling about hanging out with a couple of people whose company I enjoy." And here she was getting a little emotional, as she did the time a couple of weeks back where I brought up being a little triggered by her being home very late from work after a similar get-together where, admittedly, she had kept in touch with me, and then "missing her exit" and ending up in the neck of the woods where OM's bar is, sort of the same demeanor as she had then when she got all teary and was like "how long are we going to stay focused on this one thing, like the only problem with the MR is me and what I did". (That was what she had said last month in a MC session, not last night, but her demeanor was similar.) My response was "You have told me so many times how you do not know at exactly what point you 'crossed the line' with OM, just that you obviously 'let him in' too much and let things get too close and intimate with him... that clearly there were not sufficient boundaries. And, I understand as you have told me that you have always been more comfortable being around and being friends with men than you have been around women..." [very true, this is something she told me as far back as when we first met, and she does have a lot of male friends but always wanted to be 'just friends' with them-- which was a problem for and confusing for some of the guys especially because she has always been so touchy/warm-- something which also always frustrated her and she never completely understood] "...But, here you are, hanging out after hours in a usually empty office with a married man with as few as one other person there with you... this doctor and two women, one single and one married. I just... are you aware of the dynamic, there? Are you "letting him in" too much? Is he "letting you in" too much?"
We talked a bit more about it back and forth. I told her I didn't want her to "stop being her", and I didn't want her to stop hanging out with her friends, I just wanted her to know how I felt about it and that, on a sliding scale, I was decreasingly comfortable with it the fewer people that were there with her and the doctor, and that I am pretty sure I definitely would not want her there alone with the doctor in that same situation. For W's part, she seemed surprised and wondered if I thought she was "looking for someone" or "on the hunt" and said she was sure that doctor did nothave anything like that on his mind, and I said I was less worried about "something going on" between her and doctor than I was about her maintaining proper boundaries to keep something like the A from happening again. I also copped to feeling some jealousy now from time to time, including when she hugged the doctor at the Christmas party.
Not sure there was any "resolution" to this issue... and I am not sure I would want to tell her "you need to stop doing this", because she DOES need to have friends (she got really tearful last night when she talked about her bff moving out of state in a couple of months-- "Im trying to deal with it.. I don't really have any other close friends") and, in a perfect world where we were "solid" and I was fully confident in our relationship I would not have any qualms about her hanging out in those types of situations. But... it is fairly likely to come up in session tonight, so any thoughts on how to approach it without looking either "weak" or "unconfident" or "domineering" would be appreciated.
Issue two: The Beach Trip Which Must Not Be Named. I have brought this up a few times, here. Last July, before we had our final confrontation/BD/blow-up where she finally broke down and broke contact with OM and decided to "work on us", she left the family beach trip to go to a previously-planned "girls weekend" at a different beach with bff and another gf. She had waffled back and forth all week about going: "Maybe I'll just go home with you guys and not go", but, ultimately, when we packed up from the family trip and headed back, she hopped in the car and drove to the other beach to see bff and gf. Later, I found out (through idiot OM's posting pictures about it on FB) that OM had been at the beach, just three blocks away from where W was staying, during the same time period. I have told W a couple of times, I think October might have been the last, that I know OM was there and that, under the circumstances, the closeness of hers and bff's relationship with him, how much they stayed in contact, and for how long the girls trip had been planned (since the previous January), I found it impossible to believe that they and OM did not each know that the other was going to be there, and that I found it only slightly less unbelievable that they didn't see each other while they were there. W's responses about that were (July-- "I have nothing to say about that, maybe you should ask bff", and October-- "I don't know what you want me to say about that.. there's nothing to tell..." or something to that effect.) For further color, there are some suspicious phone records from that night-- W calling bff's phone after midnight (why weren't they together) and some other calls/texts, and W had installed and then uninstalled "WhatsApp" while there. I never told W I had checked the phone records, though I did mention the WhatsApp saying it popped up on my own phone when I was looking at that app for me, and she said she never used it, just installed and uninstalled. She also had called me the morning of her return and said she had taken a "long long walk on the beach by herself, and done a lot of thinking" and later that she "didn't want to be that person who was 'The Cheater'" so I am wondering if something "happened" between her and Om and that it didn't feel right or made her feel really guilty or the like...
At any rate, all of that... the beach and whatever happened there... are clearly in the pre-ultimatum, pre-breakdown "we're working on this" phase and so would be "covered" under any forgiveness I am granting for the Affair. However... it gnaws at me. She left a family vacation (we cut it short by choice but without her looming girls weekend prolly would all have stayed another day or two)... her kids... to go see OM, or at least to go to a beach where she know Om was going to be. And then, when she was late getting home on her return day and I got angry because she wanted to "extend" the weekend by going to have lunch with bff (and for all I know at that time the lunch could have included OM) she had the gall to say "I was thinking about you guys on the way home and I was going to give everyone a big hug and say how much I missed everyone, and now this.." and be a little ticked or self-righteous at me. (And remember this was all about two to three weeks prior to me finding her second burner phone where I walked away and she finally broke down.)
This is something I actually discussed in IC with the counselor, under the rubric of "things I should or should not bring up, and how I should bring them up when I do in a constructive manner" and IC asked me "well, you may need to ask yourself is knowing that information necessary to the rebuilding of your MR? Can you live without knowing it and, if you did know it, could you live happily with that if it was something you didn't want to hear?" I told MC that I think I had it in me to let it go in general, however I would anticipate a similar "girls beach weekend" at some point in the future, and at that point I mam not sure I would be able to either keep silent about it or give my blessing to her to go knowing what I know and strongly suspecting that she had never come clean about it. I have told W several times that that there are very few things which build my trust in her more than when she shares something difficult like that with me, and few things which damage my trust more than when I find out she has not been completely candid or honest about something relating to the A.
So, collective braintrust, WRT both of these issues: Should I bring them up again, and, if so, how, and what are ways of discussing them that might prove CONstructive as opposed to DEstructive.
Thanks as always.
This is something I actually discussed in IC with the counselor, under the rubric of "things I should or should not bring up, and how I should bring them up when I do in a constructive manner" and IC asked me "well, you may need to ask yourself is knowing that information necessary to the rebuilding of your MR? Can you live without knowing it and, if you did know it, could you live happily with that if it was something you didn't want to hear?"
You recently asked if you are piecing. This is the type of thing you frequently see in piecing, and be prepared, it gets much harder once the high of "getting her back" starts to wear off.
My opinion is that it would be difficult to move forward questioning what actually happened, I mean that in the general sense, not by knowing every little detail, but how much you want to know is a personal thing. For me, I don't think I'd be able to truly fall in love and be vulnerable if I had lingering questions about things that may or may not have happened, or wondering if I was or wasn't lied to about answers that didn't sit right with me.
When I divorced, I found myself no longer caring about those things, but it was always on my mind when I thought about being with her again. Maybe in time that wondering goes away as you piece and grow closer, but I don't know for sure because I never got that far into it.
My opinion, if you are going to want to know, the earlier you find out and she opens up about it, the better. Having a discussion about any details and her being honest about things that are going to hurt you, is something that is hard on both sides and any progress in bonding can back slide quite a bit.. I think it's better to know what is going to be known before deciding to stay together, you know, informed decision.
As for the after work wine socializing.. I agree that it appears very inappropriate, but I also recognize that after coming here, we are over sensitized to these types of things compared to the rest of the world. I don't really think discussing this specific topic is helpful, I think it's better discussed in a more general topic of boundaries (as you mentioned several times).
At some point, specific "training" on boundaries needs to happen with your W (in counseling would probably be best). I think that if you are comfortable that she understands and has boundaries, that she knows how to recognize when boundaries are being crossed, and knows how to enforce those boundaries, you will be able to trust her in these types of situations. Like anything, thinking about how to respond in situations makes it easier to do so when needed, rather than trying to figure everything out when it happens.
I haven't posted to you before and have had to research your sitch a little and take some notes.
I am going to tackle this from a different angle, the reason is that my thoughts are that a lot of psychology on this doesn't make good sense in sitches where there has been cheating.
Regret v Remorse
It is often in 12 steps that we have to atone. To atone one needs remorse as humility and the desire to put right the wrong is important. Atoning needs to be in a way that fits the need of the one who was wronged.
Regret is not remorse. Regret never needs to atone.
You as the wronged person can't move on until you know there is true remorse and that has been atoned in a reasonable way. If there has been no atoning then it will keep nagging at you.
Atoning is not punishing and must be appropriate. That may mean say no girls night out at beaches for 2 years, but not forever!
You may wish to Google the difference between remorse and regret for yourself.
Forgiveness
To my philosophy there is no need to forgive someone at all. Some things are unforgiveable such as the abuse of a child or cheating with 9OW. I don't believe forgiveness is required but letting go of resentment is important. Letting the black bile go will certainly help you in your progress.
I leave forgiveness between the higher power and the other. Not my job at all, I am not a higher power and don't have that job. I ask for forgiveness for myself and can't be upset if another doesn't forgive me as long as my forgiveness is for myself. Forcing yourself to forgive will create guilt and shame in you if you find that impossible.
My philosophy is based on Jeanne Safer's work on forgiveness.
Trust and Love
Trust and love are separate states. You can trust someone and not love them and visa versa.
Trust can not be demanded nor given. It isn't wise to trust someone who isn't trustworthy. Trust isn't mandatory for love. You could for instance trust someone with money but not your heart. You could trust their timekeeping but not them to look after your car. It's not an all or nothing thing. It's fine to check in areas you are uncertain.
You can love and not trust. That is fine. Your trust is your business not the other, it's yours to manage.
Your trust is your business and it is not mandatory.
It's abusive to force someone to earn your trust! It's controlling and unnecessary. If you can trust when it's appropriate that's great but it isn't necessary.
The need to know
Some peeps need details as part of remorse, others are happy if atoning is adequate.
Some things need to be clear, you may not want or need all the details but enough to assess the risk and if what you know doesn't fit or seems untruthful then you will need more. It's inevitable your spider sense is tingling.
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I think you can't let go because W hasn't atoned to you and there appears insufficient remorse. In that case you will want to be clear on what you need in terms of remorse and atoning. Together with a time frame.
If things don't seem right, don't add up and you can't assess the risk then it will keep cropping up. You will keep questioning it.
Don't be told you should or you need to forgive and forget. That too is your concern and only yours.
Those are my thoughts.
V
I don't know if your W understands what it means to affair proof the M. I leaned through my own experience that knowing you trust each other, is not enough to keep you from stepping over the line into that inappropriate area. Claiming to like men more than women for friends......is not good enough. Claiming to not have hung out with very many since the A (boohoo).........is not good enough. The fact that one or two other women are with her and the attractive doctor while they drink.......is not good enough. Is it? Did she do this long before her A, or has it started since the A?
Your W is either insensitive to your pain after her cheating, or she is not behaving like an educated woman who has learned from experience how to affair proof the M. What will it take for her to realize she cannot repeat similar scenarios, without the high risks? Maybe the MC is failing to talk about that part. The spouses have to affair proof their MR as much as possible. Sounds to me like the MC has not addressed what clear boundary lines look like in a MR after an A.
I don't know if your W understands what it means to affair proof the M. I leaned through my own experience that knowing you trust each other, is not enough to keep you from stepping over the line into that inappropriate area. Claiming to like men more than women for friends......is not good enough. Claiming to not have hung out with very many since the A (boohoo).........is not good enough. The fact that one or two other women are with her and the attractive doctor while they drink.......is not good enough. Is it? Did she do this long before her A, or has it started since the A?
Your W is either insensitive to your pain after her cheating, or she is not behaving like an educated woman who has learned from experience how to affair proof the M. What will it take for her to realize she cannot repeat similar scenarios, without the high risks? Maybe the MC is failing to talk about that part. The spouses have to affair proof their MR as much as possible. Sounds to me like the MC has not addressed what clear boundary lines look like in a MR after an A.
This took up the bulk of the MC session on Wednesday. In fact, we were already discussing it when the MC dialed in to the teleconf session. I had called her on way home because we were going to be getting home too close to session start time and I had wanted to continue our discussion about the "Wine Downs" at work.
Basically, I told her I was more concerned about her understanding of appropriate boundaries and not making the same mistakes we had made before rather than any specific thing like the "Wine Downs" which, at least at the moment, appear to be "innocent" if ill-advised. Reminded her this particular concern was particularly apt because she still couldn't say "exactly how/when she crossed the line" with OM, so I thought we should be trying to identify what those boundaries should be so didn't make same mistakes again. Also told her my main concerns arose when she was not keeping me advised of where she was and when or when she sprung things on me at the last minute (surprises) both of which she has actually been doing very good with recently. Told her I wanted her to "have a life outside of us", as I did for me, but that I obviously wanted the priority to be on us, and especially so when we are trying to work our own troubles out in the MR.
For her part, she said that with the OM, while she couldn't say exactly when she "crossed the line" that she was in a place due to having "stepped out of the marriage" and "being done" that she felt like that was something she could do, the implication being that now, where we are now, she does not feel like she is "out of the marriage" and so does not consider herself vulnerable to such line crossing. Also, she said that these get-togethers were just social, not intimate, and that most of the conversation had to do with goings on at work and letting off associated steam (it is a pretty hectic workplace with quite a bit of disgruntlement amongst employees for various things.)
We also discussed her feelings of having to "check in" or "ask permission" to do things, which she said she always felt in the past like she had to do, but which sort of surprised me since I never thought I came across as any kind of jealous or suspicious or controlling. She pointed out that I had been just saying over recent months whenever I was going somewhere that "I am going to__________" and that was it... I never asked her feelings on it or "if it was okay." This is, of course, true... I have been doing that ever since 180-ing, and GAL-ing while A was ongoing. She said that seems kind of like a double standard.
Ended up by pointing out the importance, in any marriage, of keeping each other informed and checking in with spouse before doing things or going places-- not as a control thing but just as a common courtesy thing.
Since you asked about these after work get-togethers, she probably started doing them a few months, say 6, before the A started--probably about 2 years ago. Sort of coincided with her whole bff- inspired effort to "expand her social circle" and her mentally/emotionally "stepping out" of the marriage.
Re: BFF, who is moving away to a distant state in June, W said-- "I think I would like to be able to go visit bff once every two to three months-- airfares are cheap to there, what do you think about that?" My response was that it was kind of situtational, and I thought to myself having to see ANY friend, that far away, that often seemed a little unusual, but that, in general, she could make her own decisions about what friends she wanted to see-- she knows how I feel about bff and about how I view that dynamic. In that context, discussed what are "button pushing" situations for me, most profound of which are "girls weekends" and that, given her silence on their beach weekend last July where OM was at same beach and I know for a fact he was at same beach but they have never acknowledged it, I don't think that that particular type of trip I would be willing to sit still for her taking. That was her opening to open up about that trip but she did not, instead saying "We won't be planning any more beach trips" and also saying that when she went to the beach last Fall to get away that she "did so alone" (which I also believe-- I was still monitoring her at that time.) But nothing further did she say either denying or acknowledging that anything happened WRT OM at that July trip. And, yes, that still bothers me.
MC assigned us some reading and trust-building exercises as well as some touch exercises.
From my own IC sessions, it seems clear that MC will talk to her about boundaries and avoiding past mistakes and affair-proofing, and, as well, some of the readings and exercises she gave us touch on those issues... but it will have to be me to bring those up, I think.
W said she would be making future IC sessions and asked me to show her how to work the video conferencing.
Other odds and ends: She seems excited about our Mexico birthday getaway in May... keeps asking about, asked yesterday if she could have a clothing allowance for cute beach and resort clothes.
I am being deliberate with lighter touch, giving her a hug and/or kiss on way out door in morning... still seems like that is fairly awkward for her. Going to have to take the initiative on the touch exercises MC gave us.
ANd to clarify, I did not directly respond to her question about wanting to go see bff at the time she raised it, it came up later in the context of button-pushing situations, and, even then, I did not indicate any sort of consent. In fact, the discussion about bff concerned particular triggers and trips, not her desire to see bff every three months. I did NOT tell her she could "see bff whenever she wanted" or "go see her every three months." At the time she made that initial comment I kind of let it pass and steered things back to what we had been talking about-- the "Wine Downs" and boundaries.
Also, to add: I want to clarify that, in a vacuum, i would not necessarily worry about or object to these after work get-togethers at all. (Unless they were just one on one with her and doctor, which they have not been and which she says she wouldn't do). They are not behind closed doors, or in secret, everyone in the office of approximately 30-35 people knows about them and apparently thinks nothing of them, and same goes for this doctor's wife. And, quite frankly, it is from the perspective of the Dr's wife, who apparently has no probleme with it... that i have a problem with it. I just think that putting myself in her shoes, if i was a woman... I'd be pretty concerned... more than concerned... about it. But i have never been to these so maybe i am missing something. At any rate, if W and I were "solid"-- no issues, no recent affair, confident in our MR, I wouldn't bat an eyelash at this... and wouldn't have batted an eyelash about it prior to things "going bad" with us... especially after W explained the dynamic and where they happened and who all came to them, etc.
Now, i understand that i am not in a vacuum, and that W has some responsibility to comport herself in certain ways but... I am the only one on the planet, apparently, who thinks this looks at least a little weird-- again mostly from the standpoint of the doctor's W.
From my own standpoint, the only reason it gives me pause is because i was (and still am, a bit) concerned that my W is not fully cognizant of the importance of respecting certain boundaries, especially given her past behavior. But, then again, if I have misconstrued or overblown these "Wine Downs", that may not be a terribly valid concern, either.
At least, thankfully, W seemed receptive to discussing the topic of boundaries, her previous violation of such boundaries, and the fact that her past behavior might impact where such boundaries should be for her, at least in the short term.
But she, and apparently everyone else on the planet, seems to think these things, as a social event, are harmless.
Oh, and another topic that came up at MC-- W asked me, when we started talking about the "Wine Downs": "I sometimes wonder if maybe it's just that you feel... left out, though maybe that is not the proper term. Maybe more that you have to be there and that you don't trust any social situation where i am alone and you are not there."
I found this an interesting take, especially the way she phrased it as "feeling left out"-- which sounded very VERY much like something bff (who has a dim view of me to begin with) would say-- and i told her as much, and also that i did not have any feelings of being "left out" and thought it important for BOTH of us to have our own friends and lives to bring to the MR, and to be able to do things, within appropriate bounds, on our own. Also told her, as i indicated above, that my objections or concerns were not related to any particular activity or place or event (with notable exception of girls weekends with bff), but rather with the more general idea that she did not previously recognize what the appropriate boundaries were with OM, and that she still might not recognize those boundaries and that that might put our progress and our MR at risk. She seemed to understand what i said, here, and accept it.
Dang, I just got a nice full-body hug. Heading out to go pick up my older son and College for spring break, I was talking with wife in the kitchen before I left, and she just looked really good, long blonde hair kind of tousled up, still in her boots and jeans from work... Just felt right so I said "Come here..." and pulled her in and gave her a hug which she didn't fight or Shrink frog and in fact reciprocated full body.
And I pulled away and said "now put those glasses back on and give me something to dream about." ( I had been teasing her earlier in a good-natured way about how she really have the sexy librarian thing going on tonight when she put on her glasses). She smiled and kind of dropped her head a little and said "get out of here" with a little push.
It was a nice moment. Staying over tonight in my son's college town and coming back early tomorrow morning.
Just thought I'd throw something positive out there on the boards since I've been leaning a little negative the last day or so
She pointed out that I had been just saying over recent months whenever I was going somewhere that "I am going to__________" and that was it... I never asked her feelings on it or "if it was okay." This is, of course, true... I have been doing that ever since 180-ing, and GAL-ing while A was ongoing. She said that seems kind of like a double standard.
Are you still going out without asking about her feelings? I can see why she would feel it was a double standard. The board needs to talk about transitioning from a LBS to piecing, IMHO. (I may try to write down a few thoughts on it). If she is trying to walk the straight & narrow, then it would be considerate for both spouses to check with each other. I think you need to continue GAL, but as long as she is attempting to do what you've asked......then I think you should give her that consideration.
Since you asked about these after work get-togethers, she probably started doing them a few months, say 6, before the A started--probably about 2 years ago. Sort of coincided with her whole bff- inspired effort to "expand her social circle" and her mentally/emotionally "stepping out" of the marriage.
This may sound insignificant, but maybe you should not be telling her you want her to have a life apart from the MR. I know what you mean, and it may be just me.......but it could also be words that she might try to use to justify for not giving full disclosure. Where you see it as GAL in addition to the MR, she may see it as "stepping out" of the MR. It's probably just my over-cautious mind at work here.
My response was that it was kind of situtational, and I thought to myself having to see ANY friend, that far away, that often seemed a little unusual, but that, in general, she could make her own decisions about what friends she wanted to see
That ^^^^ may be your over-cautious mind at work. It's mine, also. I don't know what you can do about it, other than telling her you don't want her going, and forcing her to choose between you and BFF. I don't think it would go real well. Hopefully, the distance will help, and BFF will so involved with new people, their communication will taper off. That would help cool the interest down some......maybe..........hopefully.
From my own IC sessions, it seems clear that MC will talk to her about boundaries and avoiding past mistakes and affair-proofing, and, as well, some of the readings and exercises she gave us touch on those issues... but it will have to be me to bring those up, I think.
W said she would be making future IC sessions and asked me to show her how to work the video conferencing.
I agree, I think you'll have to lead here.
But she, and apparently everyone else on the planet, seems to think these things, as a social event, are harmless.
No, you aren't the only one with that opinion. I thought being too old fashion was behind my line of thinking. But why do you say this? Did your MC think it was just fine and dandy, knowing your W's history?
Dang, I just got a nice full-body hug. Heading out to go pick up my older son and College for spring break, I was talking with wife in the kitchen before I left, and she just looked really good, long blonde hair kind of tousled up, still in her boots and jeans from work... Just felt right so I said "Come here..." and pulled her in and gave her a hug which she didn't fight or Shrink frog and in fact reciprocated full body.
And I pulled away and said "now put those glasses back on and give me something to dream about." ( I had been teasing her earlier in a good-natured way about how she really have the sexy librarian thing going on tonight when she put on her glasses). She smiled and kind of dropped her head a little and said "get out of here" with a little push.
Very good! Spontaneous and sexy.
She cashed out the bank account. Left town with the tow-truck driver. Didn't even leave a note.
I'm kidding. Just nothing really going on. S1 in town for spring break and S2 has had basketball playoffs. We're having our first "kid free" night in a while tonight.
She's been more snuggly in bed, and kissed me back when i went to give her a hug and a peck as i was leaving for work today... Kind of threw me cuz it was a first and unexpected. (No tongues)
Well hey, no tongue kisses are better than nothing. Consisitant baby steps will eventually get you to where you're headed. She does seem to be putting forth more effort this time, don't you think?
Have a great kid-free night.
I'm kidding. Just nothing really going on. S1 in town for spring break and S2 has had basketball playoffs. We're having our first "kid free" night in a while tonight.
She's been more snuggly in bed, and kissed me back when i went to give her a hug and a peck as i was leaving for work today... Kind of threw me cuz it was a first and unexpected. (No tongues)
Yeah my wife will peck kiss and even have sex. But nip open mouth kissing or tongue. Makes me sad.
Jim,
I have been following along but not posting. I am not a vet but a fellow journeyman who feels the same way you do about separation. I do think both of you are making efforts which is good. What I think is not working for you is pressing for R talks. This is really hard but that’s helped me and my situation. Those talks are pressure.
People kiss with tongues?
You young folk! Whatever next.....
V
It may blow minds of men, but I'll say for some women (just to be safe) the deep, intimate, tongue kissing is more........(how should I say......) personal or sensual, than intercourse. Remember the movie "Pretty Woman" where the two hookers were talking about having sex and avoiding kissing with their clients? The hookers looked at sex as a business and did not want to risk an emotional connection............which came from kissing. It plays on the woman's senses. Kisses will fill her senses, or leave her empty. It will turn her on.... or off. Even in the early dating years, how the man's kisses make her feel, plays a critical part in how the R develops. I don't mean to make her sound shallow....but I hope you know what I mean.
Women can let a man have intercourse with her, while her mind is on the conference she had with her kid's teacher that day. That's usually when she's just laying there and he's doing all the work. But kissing normally requires some type of response, whether she responds to intercourse or not. Slow, sexy, wet, deep kissing......is more sensual or personal for her. Maybe b/c it's closer to her brain, IDK, but it is harder to have tongue kisses while thinking about everything she needs to pick up at the grocery store. It touches her senses, good or bad......and it will either cause her to want more, ......or she'll pull back. Whereas, she is physically and emotionally capable of laying there like a corpse and having no response, while the man has sex with her........it is something about staying engaged in tongue kissing that draws a response of some type.
In many cases, the H can guage the temperature of his MR by his W's kisses. If he notices she is not kissing before/during sex, that's a red flag. If she avoids tongue kisses, that's a red flag. Their M is rapidly declining......even if she agrees to have sex with him. No kissing = red flag! If a W is just giving her H a peck on the cheek......and that's all the type of kisses he gets from her.....their MR is in big trouble. It doesn't mean she is in an affair, but it means she is not sexually attracted to her H the way she once was. She can give anyone a peck on the cheek, b/c it does not require or indicate anything sexual. Telling the H goodbye or goodnight and giving him a quick peck......is more out of habit than any affection. It's as if she thinks a peck will hold him at bay.
If the MR is clawing its way back from the grave, it may not have seen any peck kisses in a long time......so a peck is a start. Next step is her mouth getting closer to his. Maybe her lips stay closed, but she at least puts her mouth on his. Next step is opening her lips. (Reminds you of school days, doesn't it? Trying to get to that point of French kissing the girl). The hotter she feels attraction for him.......the more she'll enjoy his passionate tongue kissing.
If the MR is not where it use to be, and/or the W is in an EA/PA....or even if she has a high sex drive and she craves physical release that comes in having sex.......she might engage in sex with her H. However, it does not mean she is feeling desire for him, personally. There use to be a song, "It's in His Kiss". Well, it's in the woman's kisses that tell the real story of how she feels about him........not about sex or anything else.....but about him, the man.
<heavy sigh>
Somewhat discouraging day all around. Lost some money on a bad investment, aggravated my old shoulder injury at the gym, found out the star player on my school's basketball team is hurt for the tourney and might not play, and slightly discouraging evening with W to top it off.
Had IC earlier in the day. W has not scheduled her next session yet though says "I need to do that." Talked generally about me being able to "get over" various things, like W's friendship with bff (MC says i shouldn't compromise my values on that, and should make my feelings known when they arise, BUT that the relationship may die off of its own accord when bff moves out of state-- MC also very interested in dynamic between W and bff, thought maybe it was co-dependent and maybe W attracted to bff because W's low self esteeem and "good girl" struggles-- bff is strong personality and definitely "rebel, bad girl") She is very eager to get W back into IC soon. Counselled me to keep maintaining balance in my own life, not to backtrack on my GAL's and 180s, keep journalling. Also advised me to be more contemplative when approaching W about sensitive subjects, in particular to think out conversations ahead of time so I am responding to W's responses not emotionally but with well thought out responses.
Tonight, W and I talked about several things.
1) IC-- i mentioned i had done mine today instead of thursday due to MC being booked up. W said, "I really need to do that, to talk to her about a couple of things..." which led into
2) Discussion about upcoming MExico trip for her 50th. W: "I am really excited to be going, but i am also worried." Reasons being, she is concerned about her weight-- "I really need to drop about 15 to 20 pounds in 8 weeks.. i don't like the idea of having to buy "fat clothes" for this trip to this nice resort.. i want to buy cute clothes that will fit me when im skinnier", also concerned about leaving kids alone for close to a week (I reminded her they are 18 and almost 20), and, finally, the biggie: "i AM excited about going, but... I'm, idon't nknow...I guess worried that it will be like Key West when we were first dating.. that we'll go on this nice expensive trip and then when we come back...[long, long silence]" and i finish for her: "You'll get cold feet." (Color on this-- Key West was the first "get away together" trip we ever took when we were first dating, at the end of our "summer romance" in 1992. It was nice, and fun, but when we came back she got her first real serious case of "cold feet" about us. She'd had a couple of starts and stops previously, but, this time, not a week after we got back, we went out for ice cream or something, came back, i dropped her off, she got out of car and said something like: "Well, maybe I'll see you at the gym sometime." And walked into her apartment. She started seeing another guy within the week. That didn't last and she briefly "dated" another dude before coming back to me. (I didn't pursue but did call her up once or twice just to see how she was doing, and she did likewise) We got back together 6 months after the breakup when SHE invited ME to go on a birthday trip (hers) down to Florida for a week. At any rate, TONIGHT, she's like, "I don't want to be coming back and then if things dont work out you're going to be like 'oh, yeah, now that you've gotten this nice trip you're going to bolt'" My response to her was that i thought our MC's take on all of this would be that she was focusing too much on what could go wrong and not "acting as if" things were going to work out with us and what they would look like if they did work out. She kind of nodded at this, but I did not find the exchange at all encouraging.
Finally, we did one of the touching exercises-- each in turn lying face up on bed while the other explored/caressed the others' face, eyes closed. MC had said-- "you need to start getting used to touching each other again intimately. Even if these exercises feel awkward, it will be valuable because then the more natural touches in "real life" will feel less awkward and more natural by comparison". At any rate, we did it, at my suggestion, though she was willing, and, both agreed it was nice. We discussed it as we were supposed to, my sense was that she is a very sensual person, very communicative by touch, and that that conveyed when she was touching me-- not necessarily in an erotic way (though it was a bit of that, too), but definitely intimate-feeling. We also both agreed it felt like i was "holding back" some (which is true, i definitely didn't want to come off as being seductive as it seemed more of an exploratory exercise to me) and that I (hoosjim) "got the better of it" on the receiving end. She lingered a long time on my face, maybe twice as long as I did on hers, say 8-10 mins versus about five for me. At any rate, i didn't feel like i came across as confident with my touch as i should have (I kinda wish she had gone first, in which case i would definitely have been less restrained. Wow she is good.)
Oh, and i forgot, we had a long talk last night or night before about bff and my best friend and their respective STBXS's and that whole love quadrangle and how it would impact us socially in the future. W had had lunch Sunday with bff and other GF, and then shared with me monday that bff's AP had been there, too. She knows because i have told her how uncomfortable that whole dynamic makes me, not only because they (bff and AP) are both serial cheaters and betrayers, but b/c bff's AP knows about my W's A). W maintains she doesn't know how bff's AP could possibly know about her (W's) A with Om, to which i responded "Well, he does, he told MY friend and said he'd seen pics of you two together, which could only have come from your bff". This was all a bit disingenuous on my W's part, unless she really was in total brain fog, as i had previously heard bff telling W, many months ago, that "It was still weird for _________ (bff's AP and my former friend) to see you (my W) with OM".
Anyhoo, i maintained that it would be most uncomfortable for me to socialize with bff and AP together (for obvious reasons) ,and somewhat less uncomfortable to socialize with bff and W together without bff's AP. This due to me "not blaming" bff as much as i could have for her (bff's) A because it seemed to me that my own friend "enabled that A to a large degree." Something that i almost immediately regretted saying because it minimized the significance of bff's having an A
W for her part said it didn't feel weird hanging out with bff and AP, and that they "seemed happy." [Oh YAY! Everybody's HAPPY!!! It must be the right thing! Oh, wait, nobody asked the kids. Oops.-- I didn't say that BTW but did think it.]
She (W) did say it might seem weird hanging out with my friend and his current "woman", who is bff's AP's STBXW (they are effectively swapping spouses-- follow?)
So this morning she comes and hugs and kisses ME on her way out door (jus a peck, but remember that's new for us) as opposed to me initiating. Just something different. Guess she is still trying.
This mindset (cold feet) she seems to keep having is worrisome though. I tend to agree with MC that we should be trying to focus on what it will look like for us to be together in the future rather than thinking about a future apsrt.
Just one little bit of advice....
You are truly a very analytical over-thinker. It's your nature, who you are and that is fine. If you are going to let that go a little anywhere in your life, let it be when you are having intimate moments with your wife. Like the face touching. Don't hold back. That's is the time you should get out of your head and truly lead with the soul and maybe even with the guy in your pants, ya know what I mean? There are moments it is ok to do that.
sandi, thanks for the explanation on kissing for women.
to update, my wife has now open mouth kissed me a few times. still no tongue kissing (at least on the mouth), but we are closer than we were 2 weeks ago.
"I really need to drop about 15 to 20 pounds in 8 weeks.. i don't like the idea of having to buy "fat clothes" for this trip to this nice resort.. i want to buy cute clothes that will fit me when im skinnier",
She voices the very thoughts I have had many times. She imagines herself being on the beach and how she's going to look in her bathing suit. You don't have to share this with her, but she is not going to lose that much weight in 8 weeks. Not for a woman turning 50. Unless she is retaining fluid, she'd do good to lose 10-12 pounds on a strict, but healthy, diet. If she starves herself, it won't help the MR, b/c she would be irritable and unhealthy.
She feels bad about herself. She doesn't like turning 50. It may not be so much the number, but the stigma our society has given it. Every product for women on the market promises a more youthful appearance/feeling. It is a challenge to shop for attractive, yet appropriate dresses, b/c it is geared to young & skinny.
It's a sensitive subject, but the only thing I know to suggest is for you to approach her about her concerns. Assure her that from your male point of view (not just as her H), she is still beautiful and that she looks better than most women who are much younger. Tell her how proud you are to be seen with her, and for people to know she is your W. Then express how you want her to feel better about herself and to not let the size number of her clothes prevent her from enjoying the trip to Mexico. (B/c she is actually trying to find an excuse to back out, if she can't drop some weight). Tell her if she wants to exercise, you would love for her to go with you to the gym, and it could be a team activity. If she wants to diet, you'll help her anyway you can (not buying or eating goodies in front of her, going out to eat while she's dieting, etc).
However, you know her best and know how she may respond. All you can do is show that you want to encourage her to feel better about herself. Ultimately, it's up to her if she allows the weight to dictate whether or not she goes and enjoys a beautiful and expensive trip with her H, who is trying very hard to save their MR.
FWIW, I agree 100% with Ginger's comments. Living in a SSM is an ego buster......for both spouses. Don't hold back with the touching, b/c she could think she looks repulsive. Don't wait on her. You have to get yourself out of that mindset. Did the MC say whether or not you can say anything while touching?
You have previously said she knows you think she's beautiful. But women need to hear it often from the H. And they need him to be more specific about how she is pretty to him. Part of being intimate is verbally making love. When touching her face, tell her how her skin is baby soft. You get lost in her blue eyes. Trace her lips with the tip of your finger and say, "Oh at the times looking at this mouth has distracted me from what I was doing (or saying)". (Something to that effect).
For me, saying words while touching, would take away the awkwardness. But they have to sound sincere. Don't get the giggles! Don't sound stiff and formal. Speak so softly, it's more like a whisper. It should sound as if you don't realize that you are saying your thoughts out loud.......as if you really are lost in looking at her. It's as if you are worshipping her beautiful body. You love this woman, so show it in your touch, and in your soft words.
And, you may not want to say it all at one time. But at least comment on some particular feature. Tell her how her long blonde hair looks sexy and still drives you crazy. You love kissing her slender neck (if she has a slender neck). Trace the outline of one of her ears. I won't go down the length of her body, but during the touching exercises, or not exercises, take an opportunity to express how you admire her body features.
How are you coming along with the non-sexual touching? Are you doing some every day? You need to do it, and let them grow into more intimate touching. If you don't intentionally touch her every single day, you will not bring yourself out of this pit. Are you calling her pet name? "Hey, blue eyes"........"Come sit next to me, sexy"..........."See you later, J-Lo" (and add a wink). Oh gosh......if men only knew how sexy a wink can be! They'd wink at everything that moved.
You've got to maintain this flirty, relaxed, fun repertoire. You have to do it on purpose. Yes, you initiate it, b/c you are not a LBH. Don't wait for your W (who is struggling to overcome her wayward mindset). I say this again, mainly for any newcomers who don't understand why I'd encourage this type of behavior. Once both are working to piece the M back together, their behavior toward each other should encourage closeness and growth........not distance and coolness. (That's not say he should smother her). One reason this particular MR struggles is b/c of the years of no intimacy. It's just not that easy to get back into a physical intimate R, when there has been 10 yrs of no sex. When the sex goes, the affection and tenderness follow.
I support MWD's point of view that you basically just have to start doing it, in order to get it going. However, I also understand, as a wayward W who isn't experiencing loving feelings when coming out of an A. Men want to have sex to seal the deal, especially after an A. Women want to feel a connection before having sex. So, there you go. Pressure is on both of them, b/c of the degree of scrutiny on their responses to each other.
Jim, I don't know if your MC has ever personally experienced being a WW, or closely associated to one. Sometimes, she seems to "get it". From what you have shared about the sessions and her guidance in piecing the M back together......she seems to "get" your W. She saw from the beginning how the friendship with BFF is unhealthy and badly influences your W's attitudes in the MR. She also seems to understands the results the long SSM has had, and what to do in order to get back into an intimate R. As far as MC's go, she has seemed to be a good one. Knowing she needs to see your W in IC, soon, makes me like her even more.
When your W said she didn't know if MC was right for her.......I suspected it was b/c MC has her number and does not show favoritism, and/or b/c she gets closer to the root issues more than your W would like. Anyway, stay after your W about making another appointment for IC with this counselor. I think she'll try to get lazy about it and, maybe, about the homework, too. So, continue taking the lead.
sandi, another outstanding post. You really should write a book.
Jim, I've been doing a lot of what sandi is saying here, and yes it does pay dividends. No doubt about it. My wife calls and texts me throughout the day now just to tell me fun stuff or to talk. 3 months ago she never contacted me unless there was something pressing. We are having sex again, and lots of it.
I attribute a lot of it to doing exactly what sandi is saying here. Don't underestimate the power of LISTENING to your wife. Just let her talk. Just listen to her go. Don't try to interject, give advice or fix. Just LISTEN. They love it. It is like verbal foreplay.
Also, the non-sexual touching is key. Put your hand on the small of her back as you pass behind her in the kitchen. Reach down and pat her knee as you walk by her sitting in the living room. Reach over and scratch her back in the morning as she is lying in bed.
Sandi, I can't wait to incorporate the whispering thought as I stroke her cheek. My wife turns 50 tomorrow and she is freaking out about it. A lot of what you said about product marketing, and the cute dresses she sees that she wishes she could wear are SPOT on.
Jim try some of this stuff. It is like magic.
sandi, another outstanding post. You really should write a book.
Some people would say that I write a book every time I post on a thread.
But thanks for your kind words, Steve.
Quick update, some good and then some
maybe not quite so good (but im not sure)...
How are you coming along with the non-sexual touching? Are you doing some every day? You need to do it, and let them grow into more intimate touching. If you don't intentionally touch her every single day, you will not bring yourself out of this pit. Are you calling her pet name? "Hey, blue eyes"........"Come sit next to me, sexy"..........."See you later, J-Lo" (and add a wink). Oh gosh......if men only knew how sexy a wink can be! They'd wink at everything that moved.
You've got to maintain this flirty, relaxed, fun repertoire. You have to do it on purpose. Yes, you initiate it, b/c you are not a LBH. Don't wait for your W (who is struggling to overcome her wayward mindset).
The good: <Hee hee>... so, W likes for us to order chinese food sometimes instead of cooking, which we did two nights ago. We sometimes do it for S18 when we are going out or both late from work or the like and, when we do, there are always fortune cookies left over which W likes to nibble on but this time she missed them because S18 had put them away instead of leaving them out. So, when I had a couple of minutes to myself i printed out flirty alternate "fortunes", tweezered the original fortunes out of the cookies and replaced them with the ones I'd made-- things like "Ooooh, your silky blond hair, Wow, those big blue eyes" and "If there's a prettier girl in all the state of __________ I don't know who it would be" and "You will soon go on a long tropical journey with "very handsome white man""(One of her friends, who is black, just a couple days back made that comment about me to W, who relayed it me). At any rate, i often, when i am out the door before W in the morning, will set a diet soda out for her on the counter,,,so this time i planted one of the fortune cookies nearby, not so close as to be obvious i was leaving it for her, but more like someone just left it on counter that night. She took the bait like i knew she would and it went over REALLY well. She couldn't top talking to me about it for a while yesterday when she called me. Funny (got her laughing) and flirty... and it led to a pretty good open, loose, intimate conversation that carried over into dinner (I took her out to eat last night.) Patting myself on the back and thanking the good Lord for the inspiration.
The uncertain: W's phone died earlier this week (water immersion), so we took it to the repair shop because she didn't want to lose contacts, pictures, etc. from the phone. In the interim, we got her a replacement phone because repair guy said he could retrieve data but likely not save the phone. So, repair guy calls me wednesday (we gave him my number because didn't know if W would have a phone by then) and says he got the phone dried out and managed to get it powered up so he wouldn't have to charge me for the data retrieval that i could do it myself. Now, this was less urgent after W got her new phone because, as it turns out, most of her pictures and contacts were backed up to Google and downloaded automatically to new phone.So, yesterday, after leaving work early and picking up phone, i had myself with an unusual opportunity--chance to fully examine W's phone and a couple of hours to do so. On the one hand I was like "okay, supposed to be in a trusting place now" but, OTOH, she had entrusted phone(as well as the phone password) to me previously. So i checked it out, because, hey, i hadn't spot checked in a while and figured it wouldn't hurt. At any rate, found no suspicious apps and no record of any suspicious apps in the app store. Also checked her text strings. String with bff was about as expected, though bff not trashing me as much as i expected, at least recently... in fact not really at all. Even wondering if w would be "bringing me" if she came to lunch one time. As for Om, nothing recent (and i wouldve seen it on the phone bill, anyway), BUT... way down near the bottom of her texts was still the thread she had with OM dating back to Fall of 2016 and ending shortly after BD in February 2017. Was interesting because it gave me a closer look at the timeline of what happened between them-- I'd say the "line crossing" definitely started early November. Nothing really steamy (though i know W deleted a number of texts including the pics they sent back and forth) though alot of "we have so much in common" and music sernade (he plays an instrument) and other flirty stuff by OM. Im a bit troubled that it is still on there (though OM has been deleted from her contacts), though it is way, way, way down near the bottom of what is, on her phone, an extremely long history of text threads. At any rate, it's gone now (I deleted everything prior to 12 months ago-- figured she either wouldn't notice or could attribute it to phone damage). ALSO, this exchange between her and the married doctor who works at her office, which i find slightly troubling:
6:21, Dr: "Thank you, Happy Valentine's Day! [Texts were from 2/14, remember W and went out next night b/c Ash Wednesday, so she worked her normal late Wednesday til 6 or so. The "thank you" i am assuming is for some miraculous deed my wife performed in terms of billing or patient management or the like-- she's very good at her job]
6:22, W: "Thank you, ditto. Sorry if I over shared"
6:22, W Dr: "Not at all, I would be so lucky."
6:56, W: "See you tomorrow, good night"
At 6:22, W would have been walking to car or just getting into car to come home, at 6:56 she had gotten home.
There is nothing else directly "suspicious" in any of their texts, which are probably two-thirds to threee-quarters about work, with the rest being small-talk chit chat about sports or their respective kids (he has two in high school and junior high). One time he did imply that he was going to be "all alone" watching his one son at his first wrestling match because his W had to work, and my W mused that maybe she could come over to the HS and keep him company and fill him in on wrestling rules, etc, since our son wrestled, but she never did go (and, fwiw, at the time this occurred she told me about it: "Dr. _______'s son is wrestling his for the first time ever tomorrow and Mrs. Doctor can't make it and he knows nothing about wrestling... I told him maybe i should drop by and fill him in on things-- this was several months ago when W and i were in very early post-affair stage, and i did not say anything at the time or object because W quickly said she wasn't going but...)
At any rate, the "I would be so lucky" comment by the doctor in response to my W's "oversharing" troubles me. 1) It was oversharing on her part with OM that ultimately, and probably directly, led to the A with OM, and our MC has been clear about telling us this that for women emotional intimacy precedes physical intimacy and the desire therefor. 2) To me "I would be so lucky" is a veiled (or even not so veiled) flirtation. Now, W, who has consistently maintained that she and doctor are just friends which, for the time being, i believe and accept, has been historically naive about such things, never thinking that guys "want her" and always wanting to "be friends" with them without more. She would as a result be considered by many men to be a "tease". So, she would definitely not buy that that was some overture by the doctor and, in fact, has told me twice that he "definitely doesn't" have any such designs/desires.
That text exchange occurred before our MC session where we discussed the periodic after-work wine-downs involving said doctor and our counselor discussed (again) the link between emotional intimacy and sexual intimacy with women, and emphasized the importance of maintaining proper boundaries, and W seemed to accept this. At any rate, she turned down a couple such invites from coworkers to stay for such wine-downs before staying for one earlier this week. (Where she told me in advance, kept me constantly updated, and only stayed for one glass then came home.
At any rate, doctor's designs definitely concern me. I know him, though we are not close, and we are friendly. I like the guy. But he is a man and my W is a beatiful woman, and i have heard some rumblings lately that
his W may have a bit of a drinking problem (which is why he keeps his wine collection at his office) and that his MR may be strained.
What, if anything, should i do about this? I don't necessarily want W to know that i did a "deep dive" on her phone and, TBH, that one text string his hardly a "smoking gun" of anything nefarious going on. OTOH... boundaries are important. I think she understands that conceptually but somehow may not see the early warning signals (she maintains to this day that she is not sure exactly when she crossed the line with Om or exactly how it happened.) Do I just keep pushing her to continue the IC and hope the MC can get through to her about such things, or do i need to bring this up (as risky as it is-- and I have already brought up my concerns about this doctor generally in the guise of "Are you making sure you are maintaining proper boundaries and not, as you said happened with the OM, 'letting him in' or 'letting him get too close'?" To which W has responded "Yes, i understand"..
Oh...and i got a kiss on the lips this morning as she was leaving to go to store (I know, i know, but baby steps...)
Also, she's been like in constant contact almost, calling, texting, etc., since the "fortune cookie" gambit yesterday. I think she really liked that.
Other encouraging little tidbits:
She is once again referring to my alma mater (she went to a different college and was an athlete herself) as "We.." and "...us" with respect to sporting events, which she has not done in a loooong time.
She has started initiating very intimate conversations about anatomy, sexuality, etc.
Excellent job with the cookies!
These type of interactions are as good as foreplay! When you want to make love to a woman..,,,you start at the head, first. By the time you get to Mexico, she may be popping at the seams.
.
A kiss on the lips, huh? I told ya if she gets closer to your mouth, it's a good sign.
Okay, about the doctor..........I just plain out don't like the flirtatious tones. I think he would jump at the chance. And your W.......I would gladly give a good shaking, if it would make her use common sense. This is the behavior pattern that led to the EA with OM. If she does not get it through her head that she cannot discuss her private MR issues to another man......then she will continue setting her own snares. She doesn't need to discuss anything personal with another guy, and the fact that she likes guy friends more gal friends......does not change the standards of conduct. She betrayed that standard when she went outside her M and had an A......and with a "friend". For her to think it's perfectly fine to continue pushing boundaries with other men (in any capacity) is not okay.......and she has to live by an appropriate code of conduct, or endure the consequences. IMHO, those are some of the tough love policies that need to be in place, especially when a W has betrayed her H. I find in most cases reported on the board, the H is either so afraid of losing his W, or he doesn't know enough about waywards at the point of confrontation/boundaries/reconciliation, to insist that a code of conduct be respected by his W.
That is why I am not in favor of male and female co-workers getting too cozy after work. And to know she was considering meeting him and sitting with him at his S's wrestling match......without either of the spouses being present? That is just inappropriate in my book. Where I live, gossip would spread like wildfire. You don't poke the fire if you don't wang flames. And after she's coming back from a previous A? It's practically a written invitation to repeat the same performance, if she does not learn and accept it is disrespectful to her H.........and dangerous to her MR.
She has to intentionally affair-proof her M.......and she doesn't seem to realize that it begins by not repeating the same mistakes, and the same behavior patterns. She needs to adopt a new code of conduct, if she is sincere about not having another affair. I hope the IC can help her come to terms with that issue.
Do I think she is viewing the Doc as her next affair candidate? No, not seriously, anyway. I see her being very
careless, and not learning from her past mistakes......at least, not enough to change the behavior that got her there. I think a lot of it is exactly how you've explain her. But......it is still unacceptable behavior. Do I think she is in an EA with the Doc? No, but I think she plays with fire........and although she seems to be responding to you a lot better, and putting more effort into working on the MR......it concerns me that she acts like she sees nothing wrong with those type of interactions with men. She puts herself in situations that invite suggestive attention. I mean, the fact that she's very attractive and draws the attention of the men around her, should.....if anything.....alert her inner self to be cautious that she does not give the impression she is welcoming any form of inappropriate actions. Long before I became a Christian, my mother taught (and was a perfect role model) of how a lady should conduct herself. To this day, if I am around other men, it is more important to me that they respect me as lady, first, and then as a Christian. Did I fail in both categories during my outward rebellion.......of course, I did. Did I learn from my mistakes and how I could affair proof my M to the best of my abilities? Yes, I think I did.
IDK, maybe it was how I was raised, but I have also witnessed women who display that sort of flirty behavior & attitude......are usually not thought of very highly by their surrounding female coworkers (or whatever circles). Unless, of course, the other women act in the same manner. The circles I have been associated with (co-workers, social, etc), most of the other ladies would have frowned on it, and maybe talked badly about her. But maybe things are different in her world.....IDK. But I
do know this much......I would be a very unhappy spouse if I learned another woman had gone to my son's wrestling match with the intentions of meeting up with my H and sitting next to him to give him pointers.
. It's just not cool, and I don't think a spouse should be expected to be cool with those types of situations. There is a certain code or standard by which one conducts themselves, out of respect for the spouse/marriage. (Nothing like hearing some kind of statement like this from a former wayward W, eh?)
What can
you do about it? I'd tell the IC, and give her time to work with your W about these issues. I would ask the IC what should be your best response, should your W mention meeting the Doc somewhere other than work......and without the spouses. If it were me, I'd tell her without hesitation I had a big problem with it. If the IC can enlighten you in how to handle it best, then go with her advice.
You know how I refer to the selfishness of a WW. When there was never a physical separation, and the wayward is somewhat emotionally reluctant in doing the necessary work in the MR (the way your W has done....and the way I did), but nevertheless, she "is still there"................ her selfishness does not vanish overnight. Neither does her other negative feelings, but I am pointing mainly at her selfishness right now. Some W's will tell the H, "Hey, this who I am, and I'm not going to change". It would be closer to the truth to say she doesn't want to change, b/c she doesn't love/respect their MR enough to conduct herself accordingly. In some cases, the A ends but that inward rebellious spirit is still wanting to get out. This varies with the individual sitch.
The H can set boundaries and hold her feet to the line about her outward show of respect, etc. The inner work is up to her. If she doesn't want to feel differently enough to change her actions......and do the spiritual repentance & healing in her heart/mind.......then how will the MR ever been fulfilling for her? Do you see what I mean? She's got to resolve the spiritual issue, before her rebellion ends. And as long as she feels rebellious, her selfishness is going to tell her to do what feels good and not to change for somebody else's sake.......not even for her M. So, I think your W is slowly coming along, but she is resistant to whatever the spiritual problem is with her (good girl vs bad good syndrome). My concern, is that until her inner conflict is settled, she keeps wanting to poke the fire. Let's pray she doesn't get too close to the flame, before the IC can help her. Although she had strong doubts about the MR improving, she had reasons for staying.......and from what you can tell, she did end her affair and is putting more effort into the MR.
I will share this with you, FWIW, and hope it will encourage. Several months ago, I was posting to someone who asked me questions about my A, the timeline, etc. I was explaining how I really don't remember too much about the timelines, and how long it took for this or that. I never really dwelt on it, to be honest. I think the LBS is more aware about the timeframes than the wayward. Anyway, I paused typing for a minute and realized I couldn't even remember the OM's last name! Now some of you may think that's a great sign.....and I hope it is, but at my age, forgetfulness can be a little scary. It finally came to mind what his last name was (or close enough), and I felt a sigh of relief.......not to remember
him, but that I hadn't completely lost my mind......yet. Here's the thing I want to point out. The OM was not even important enough for his last name to instantly enter my head a decade later. However, I clearly remember what led me to that reckless behavior in the very beginning. Not only do I avoid doing anything again to lead to that
source of temptation ....... But I think I am more cautious than ever, in how I present myself when interacting with other men. My personality type is very friendly........so I don't want to give the wrong impression. Do I wish I could just be "me" and not be concerned about what others think? I have learned that "me" has changed. I can be friendly......even fun, and yet maintain a respectful distance, without appearing cold or angry. Just one example would be.....don't get "touchy" when laughing and having fun with someone. People can mistake it to mean something else (even a friendly or sympathic hug). Some men see a very friendly lady as being too forward, or as flirty behavior. Although innocent, she may have to learn to tone it down. Funny thing happened on the way to affair-proofing my M.......my rebellious spirit seemed to have died along the way.
((hugs))
Sandi--these last posts of yours have been pure gold, thanks.
My plan: I will certainly bring this up with MC when i have my IC this coming week and get her input and seek her help in reemphasizing to my W the importance of appropriate boundaries. I will also continue to nudge W toward further IC of her own. Finally, if the opportunity presents itself, i will again voice my concerns-- more emphatically this time-- about her interactions with the doctor (I have enough to go on without outing myself for searching her text streams) and, perhaps, establishing a couple of boundaries of my own: "If we are going to be married and working on reconciling our MR, I can't accept you hanging out solo with other men, married or not, and i need to know you are committed to not sharing MR or other intimate information with other men, as well."
If she wants to be friends with other men, okay... but would only be appropriate for me to be present where such interactions occur.
The more i think about that text from the doctor, the more it bugs me... definitely flirtatious and suggestive. I could even see myself having used that line myself in the past... and i'd've only been looking for one thing in doing so.
Jim, Are you asking what to do about something that happened a long time ago?
I'm not clear on how recent the flirty messages are (and yes, "I should be so lucky" IS absolutely flirtatious. To me that's not reasonably disputed).
And my opinion, not a that a boss probably would not initiate it. So, Is this last month February, or last year's February?
And Just to get my bearings on your timeline -
So, are all these events and various OM's and EAs or whatever you call them, all going back to the fall of 2016?
Yikes, that's a long phase of guessing and riddle playing to be mired in. I'm so sorry.
When you are in it, it's hard to see the forest for the trees.
Do you have a timeline in your mind about how long you'll give this? I'm just asking.
PS
the "I'll be all alone" comment was more flirting. The idea that your wife would think he needed HER input into wrestling so he could manage to understand what was happening, is a real stretch for me.
Our son wrestled A LOT, as did x h and my brothers. It's a silly explanation and very hard to imagine that a physician who is presumably reasonably intelligent, needs your wife to keep him company so he can understand what he's seeing.
IMO She has no boundaries, at best.
And I would not wait for her to go to IC, and then wait some more, for her to spontaneously figure out something that she has not yet come to understand.
Besides, isn't it up to YOU to set some boundaries? What will YOU accept?
Boundaries are not about you setting them on her, they are about you setting boundaries on what you will tolerate and for how long.
Have you thought about this?
And Just to get my bearings on your timeline -
So, are all these events and various OM's and EAs or whatever you call them, all going back to the fall of 2016?
There was one EA and one OM, commencing in early November 2016. I discovered it in late January 2017. It continued until late July 2017 and it is possible, though i have good reason to doubt, that it briefly became a PA sometime after February 2017.
There is and has been no affair with the doctor... it is (so far) just poor boundary setting.
Would you suggest i confront her specifically about the texts she does not know i went looking at? FWIW i think i have enough else to go on to insist she tighten things up.
And Just to get my bearings on your timeline -
So, are all these events and various OM's and EAs or whatever you call them, all going back to the fall of 2016?
There was one EA and one OM,
commencing in early November 2016. I discovered it in late January 2017. It continued until late July 2017 and it is possible, though i have good reason to doubt, that it briefly became a PA sometime after February 2017.
Meaning, she had an affair, & kept at it for awhile, even after you confronted her? And you think it has probably ended for good. Correct?
From the thread it seems you are doing a lot of "marriage policing", which can be a soul sucking endeavor. Ugh. There is and has been no affair with the doctor... it is (so far) just poor boundary setting.
why do you think it's not an affair? I'm just asking how you'd know.
Would you suggest i confront her specifically about the texts she does not know i went looking at? FWIW i think i have enough else to go on to insist she tighten things up.
I'm not sure what else you have, but if this is her boss, I'd want her to work elsewhere b/c it's way WAY out of bounds to text that type of thing to a boss or for him to text it to a subordinate.
Seriously, I'd be unable to stop the guessing if it were my spouse and that would eat away at any shred of self esteem or trust I was trying to build.
Also, if it were ME in your wife's shoes - and IF I really wanted my m to work out, I'd be loathe to engage in any behavior that might remotely be misconstrued.
Yet here, she's blatantly engaging in behavior that is dangerous to the m.
You don't want to show your cards and I get that. But leaving this alone is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.
I'm wondering if she has a pattern - and whether this is it.
M
eaning, she had an affair, & kept at it for awhile, even after you confronted her? And you think it has probably ended for good. Correct?
The A when i discovered it was an EA, and i am pretty sure, based on what i heard at the time passing between the two, that W thought (or more likely was telling/lying to herself) that it was "just" friendship and flirting and "was not an affair." When i discovered it, she actually stepped away from it for, probably 2-3 weeks, after which she had a meet up or something involving her bff and OM and it rekindled, and from there it became more serious, not sure if it ever went physical (though i have some reason to doubt it did) and not sure it matters. I had started monitoring her and confronted her with what i had found out, i believe, without checking, in June and we had a "false start" during which contact with OM continued... which i again found out about when we had our final blow out about where i walked away and she melted down. She did not and still does not know that i knew about the A during much of the time i knew about it, though she does know that i somehow discovered eventually pretty much all that transpired. IOW, as far as she knows, i didn't find out about the rekindled and more "serious" A until, as I said, May/June, and, as far as she knows, i only discovered that she had been continuing the A (or at least contact W/om) on July 23, 2017.
Following that, i have been doing less and less "policing" as you say, or "monitoring" and, since December, almost none at all. I did the deep dive on her phone because it was easy and an almost "no risk" proposition to do so and I hadn't checked up on her in long time.
why do you think it's not an affair? I'm just asking how you'd know.
I could give you a detailed explanation but the bottom line is lack of opportunity. I suppose she could have feelings for him and there is no way for sure i would know that (though i think i would suspect... she's fairly transparent that way) but right now i am pretty confident that there has not been anything that would qualify as an "A", unless you are being VERY broad with that definition. That said, i am definitely uncomfortable with her boundary-setting and awareness.
I'm not sure what else you have, but if this is her boss, I'd want her to work elsewhere b/c it's way WAY out of bounds to text that type of thing to a boss or for him to text it to a subordinate.
Not her boss, and it's questionable as to whether or not he is a suprior. He is definitely not a "direct" superior. W is a front office manager for entire office, and also secretary for one of the doctors (a different one) in a multi-doctor practice. She reports directly to 1) Her doctor and 2) The overall practice manager. I think the "friend" doctor may have input at some point on front office performance, but he's not a supervisor. My W has been there a good bit longer than he has, over 25 years, so she has some "pull".
Just my humble opinion. The old texts from OM..... I wouldn't mention that at all. She probably did keep them as a sentimentality at that time, but probably forgot she did and just never deleted them. And I would imagine that she would have a reaction to them being gone if she was still looking over them in a sentimental way. So I would hold off saying anything on that.
This doctor. Sandi said it best. She may have no intentions, but the doctor does, and she is not affair proofing the M by spending time alone with the doctor and oversharing things about her personal life. I think many affairs begin this way (I believe my own ex's did) and it's not even going in with that intention, but it happens. ANd you know I am one of the most liberal on not controlling what the WAS spouse does. But this just seems like asking for trouble. Again, I don't think this is her intention, she just doesn't understand some boundaries. This would be worthy of being brought up and why it makes you feel uncomfortable and I do believe you have a reasonable compromise.
I feel like she needs some decent girlfriends to confide in. I believe we all need one or two close confidants we can talk about the most personal stuff to, outside of our spouses, but she her choosing isn't the best.
Just my humble opinion. The old texts from OM..... I wouldn't mention that at all. She probably did keep them as a sentimentality at that time, but probably forgot she did and just never deleted them. And I would imagine that she would have a reaction to them being gone if she was still looking over them in a sentimental way. So I would hold off saying anything on that.
Actually WRT the old texts, I had not intended on saying anything about them. I figured it was much like you said and was not particularly worried about them. In fact o considered it a fortuitous blessing, sort of a "time to start over" thing that the phone crapped out when it did.
I was actually seeking input on the brief text exchange between her and doctor that o described. That one text from him is probably the most disturbing piece of "evidence" if you want to call it that, and the one thing that seems to clearly cross the line, so I thought it might bear mentioning/discussing with my W even if it meant some ruffled feelings for "snooping" on her phone (which phone, of course she had entrusted to me along with password snd had not deemed it necessary to delete that text string). OTOH, there is clearly enough "there" in addition to the text to justify/support a discussion about the issue, IMHO, so maybe better to just let that text string be (?)
I feel like she needs some decent girlfriends to confide in. I believe we all need one or two close confidants we can talk about the most personal stuff to, outside of our spouses, but she her choosing isn't the best.
Actually, her GFs are contributing to the problem. We all know about her bff of course, but she has several GFs at wirk, all 20 something or very early 30 domething... just all the sweetest, nicest, people, but... like the majority of that generation, particularly the 20 somethings, it seems like they talk about EVERYTHING to EVERYONE. Not much modesty or guarding of intimacy anywhere... which bis prolly one reason the D rate continues to rise and M rate to drop. At any rate, these younger women, who I have hung out with with my W on occasion and who all like me and get along with me, are the same ones hanging out with this doctor after hours and encouraging my W to do the same. Now,bin their defense, quite often there are several people, both en and women there, and never behind closed foors, but, on some occasions, it is as few as the doctor, my w, and one or two other girls, who seem to see jo problem with this.
I have, of vourse, made clear to my W that I would absolutely object to it being just her and the doctor there together.
I feel ike I should also ask her: "when you text the doc about non work related stuff, chit chat or whatever, is there any reason why you shouldn't be copying/texting Mrs. Doctor at same time?
What I mean is, does she actually have any very close girlfriends who are her age? And not BFF? maybe she needs to open up a bit to a new circle of friends, a more positive circle.
I will be honest, yes, us women share everything. The only reason why I would never have an open phone policy with my significant other is what I say to my very very close GF's. But I only share with my closest most trusted friends.
Are there activities she enjoys that might open her up to a more solid group of friends and not gossipy 20 somethings?
Come to think of it, doesn she have any activities aside from these "winedowns" that she takes part in? That she does on her own? A special gym class? Volunteering? Something?
Ginger, I will reply in my new thread, thanks.
New thread starts here, for those interested:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2782108&fpart=1