Started a new thread. I can't believe I'm on third. I thought I would write ancouple of posts and be gone. I want to thank you all for helping a complete stranger from a cold land far away.
Link to #2 thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2773156#Post2773156
Today is a bad day. I was just cleaning the bathroom and all of a sudden I was thinking of my brother. I saw him smiling and I realized that I'm not going to see that again. I've never really got the chance to deal with my brothers death. W dropped the bomb soon after the funeral. My brother was always my go to guy. He had this amazing ability to say things just the right way. I miss him so bad right now.
I feel for you, Petri. ((hugs)) I know what it's like to lose a close family member, and then lose another one before you have time to go through the grieving process. There have been a few occasions where I even poured my heart out on the board b/c I needed someone to listen. Sometimes I would delete it, instead of submitting, but it was a way to deal with some of the pain.
You are facing a lot at one time, so whatever you need to do to get the pain to a tolerable level, do it. For me, it usually means having a hard cry. You don't have to be a macho man when you are grieving.
Thanks Sandi! My crying was actually what broke the straw for W. She can't take it. No even from the kids. S11 has sort of panic attacks every now and then in the evenings. Fear of death etc. She would shout at him for acting like a baby and thensome. What I've noticed about myself is that I raised my voice also back then. Now that we are separated I'm much more calm with the kids. I listen to S11 more than I did before and I validate his feelings and fears. W can't do that, all "negative" is a definite nono. Just push it aside and keep going. She has alot of things she needs to deal with...and I don't mean that I cried all the time. Just regarding the death of my brother.
There's light at the end of the tunnel. Had a trip to the bank today. I made the decision not to keep the house. Things are sorted now in a way that I can buy an apartment for me and the kids. In a way thos is a good thing. W said before we separated that no matter how this ends she wants to sell the house. Now I'm taking me and the house out of the equation. We'll see how that plays out. And I found a great apartment nearby. Kids have seen it already and they love it. Things are looking brighter indeed.
I've thinking more about me and is there more to what I did on my part regarding the M to fall apart. I came across a theory about men and affairs. The theory is that men fall for affairs due to respect. I didn't have any A's but at one point I did get alot of respect from a certain co-worker. I did find myself liking her. She even tried to hit on me straight on. I rejected her and I did tell my W about it. I've felt for years that I haven't got any respect from W or in-laws FWIW. Maybe that is what caused me to pull myself away. And when W suddenly gave me some pieces of respect I felt I was back in the game. I know it doesn't really matter now nd I even shouldn't give this a thought.
A quick question. I'm now at Ws apartment. She got a letter from a private health care providers pathology unit. Is this something I should ask her about or wait if she tells me. This unit specializes in cervical cancer. It could be nothing but her sister has it so...
I would not ask her about it, she might blame you for snooping and spying on her.
That's what I thought too.
W went to Cape Verde today. Just texted that they are safely there and tell the kids hi. Didn't respond.
The theory is that men fall for affairs due to respect.
The number one emotional need for men is admiration/respect. That's how a woman can get to a man pretty easily, by flirting and giving him ego food. If he is not use to receiving words of admiration, or looks from admiring eyes.......she can hook him.
I would not ask about the letter.
Why are you at her apartment?
Like I've said before. Our living arrangements are bad. I live a week in our house and a week in her rental apartment. She rented a small apartment at the beginning of S b/c she just wanted to see what she wants. It took her less than 2 months to realise that me and our M are the reasons she's not happy. And the living thing is what's keeping me from really detaching from her. That's why I told her to get a bigger apartment. She hasn't done anything regarding that. Not a single thing. And it pisses me off.
W sended voicemails over whatsapp. Just to tell that their hotel was overbooked and they have to stay in a temporary location and they would have wi-fi for a couple of days if the kids want to contact her. I don't know why she informed me. She sent the same info for the kids directly.
My crying was actually what broke the straw for W. She can't take it.
Hmmm, sounds like my W.
Has your W been diagnosed with any mental illness?
Reason I ask is because my W is Bipolar/BPD
and it has been hugely detrimental to our marriage.
For instance I noticed that when I get depressed or lose confidence
our marriage always suffered.
I had to be ON, all the time.By ON, I mean positive and happy.
Bipolar/BPD spouses lack empathy(hence not liking your crying).
They are poor decision makers, have low self esteem, lack judgement
and need a lot of emotional support. They are really susceptible to affairs , especially emotional ones. My W still thinks she's doing nothing wrong because in her mind, she's not. I'm not sure if she'll ever see. She just cant place herself in my position because of the lack of empathy. It [censored].
Also, she needs meds and therapy but she refuses that.
Anyway, something to bear in mind I guess.
Also, Petri, I saw that you were blaming yourself a lot.
I did that too, especially at the start.
You have to take a hard look at yourself, and do what you got to do.
Make those changes.
It might not seem that way now but you are making great progress :-)
ALL this turmoil makes us fundamentally stronger and better people.
We are WAY farther along the road than our spouses.
They still need to figure their stuff out and that will take a long time. A lot of the time they dont want to do that because they're not going to like what they see.
Forgive yourself, look after yourself, buy nice things for yourself.
Do all the things you couldnt do before. I like to sit on the couch in my underpants, watching Ken Burns documentaries, eating pizza and drinking craft beers. I could NEVER do that when W was around!!
Have a great day man, I guarantee you things will get better :-)
Thanks Morbo!
I have given a thought about W having BPD. There are issues which speak for it. Reckless sexual behavior, alcohol abuse, there were also mild drugs at the beginning of our R. Just to mention a few.
I work with people with mental illness. My friends from work have thought this to, I have talked to a couple of friends from work. They think it sounds like BPD. Even my own therapist thinks there is something else going on with W. Of course they all have only my side of the story so it's biased. But she is lacking empathy, makes rapid decisions without hesitation.
We broke up early on in our relationship. She went to bed with another person just see if she would feel any guilt/remorse. She didn't. The reason for breakup then: Anxiety.
Oh! And my conclusion is that W has at least BPD traits if not fully diagnosable BPD.
We broke up early on in our relationship. She went to bed with another person just see if she would feel any guilt/remorse. She didn't. The reason for breakup then: Anxiety.
Pet,
You didn't see this as a red flag before you married her???
LH...that is a good question. Honest answer: I didn't want to see it.
W went to Cape Verde today. Just texted that they are safely there and tell the kids hi. Didn't respond.
Why didn't you reply? I see this sentiment expressed here a lot, that detaching = being rude. That is not the case at all, the trick is to LOVINGLY detach. Read through Sandi's rules, the consistent theme is to pull back and give them time and space, but be cordial and polite and generally show them what they are missing. The WAS isn't going to ever miss a LBS that is acting cold and rude. It's fine to reply, just don't turn it into an elaborate convo but reply back with something like "that's good, thank you for letting me know."
I have my last coaching session in few minutes. Last for now. We'll see what we come up with.
Hmmmm
Sounds right.
My W has a serious alcohol problem. It runs in her family too.
Also, think her mom has issues, no empathy, had numerous affairs, reckless financially too.
You see, we are so aware of everything right now that we dont want to blame her for everything, dont want to paint her into a corner, dont want to "gaslight" her into thinking that she's going crazy.
BUT , sometimes thats the actual truth and its not all YOUR fault and YOU are not going crazy.
Its only now that I've been separated that I see the harm that her BPD caused. In the last 3 years I didnt even want to go out with her, see gigs , whatever with her because there was a good chance she would get drunk, we would argue and it would be awful. Also, we are the victims that get it right in the neck. They abuse us mainly, we take it and no one else sees it. It is exceptionally hard but we put up with it because we love them. A lot of the times we lose our love and respect for them because of what they do to us. My W asked me why I didnt talk to her anymore when I was a little depressed and become emotionally unavailable. I tried to, but a lot of the time they dont listen and turn it around on you. Its exhausting.
This is one example.
I said that I really missed my family, my job and everything that I worked for 15 years and I was unhappy with the new life in another country, I couldnt work, woe is me etc
Instead of having empathy and trying to reassure me, she turned it around and complained that I had made her pregnant at 21 and she had to leave college and move to another country and now I knew how she felt.
I gave up talking to her about my feelings and also I felt as a person with BPD she just cant actually DEAL with it.
SHE JUST CANT, she has a mental illness.
She has enough trying to keep herself together.
Its bad for her and terrible for us and our children.
In my opinion for a marriage to work with a bipolar/BPD spouse, they need you to be strong ALL the time. You cant be weak, you cant be depressed, you have to be the positive one. You have to fulfill their emotional needs which is difficult. This is the reality AND they will need therapy and meds all their lives..
Petri, you can see my thread about the roles we ourselves play in the downfall of our marriages. Sounds like you're much more logical about it. Every man deserves respect and dignity. You're a strong man to have turned away the advances from your colleague. I think it's worth thinking about it because you'll eventually, hopefully find a wonderful new relationship and don't want to make the same mistakes!
AS: I replied her now in a friendly way.
Morb: I too was depressed in 2015-16. That's when things started to go wrong. I wasn't emotionally available etc. I think my W has gone sick with strength. She is unable to show weakness in any form. I've told her that if she feels like falling apart I'm there to pick her up. But she never did that.
Nic: To move forward I think one has to see ones role in the downfall. Otherwise it's all about pointing fingers. That's what W is doing still. She knows her decision is the reason our family is torn apart. That's all. And as far as the colleague. She has made pretty straight advances since my separation. I've told her that she is a married woman and we're not going to happen. I've made a promise to myself that no third parties until D is final.
And Morbo: my W has a drinking problem in her family too. It goes way back. Like I've stated before, my MIL lives here when W is here. MIL is a hard drinker. She has been drunk as a skunk here in front of the kids. I've told W that it has to stop.
Okay, I remember, now, about the living arrangement. I wouldn't encourage anyone to take that route.
And the living thing is what's keeping me from really detaching from her. That's why I told her to get a bigger apartment. She hasn't done anything regarding that. Not a single thing. And it pisses me off.
Exactly, and why should she? It's not bothering her.
Exactly, and why should she? It's not bothering her.
Well she hates our house. And she says it bothers her. She hasn't initiated anything during this separation except the D.
But like your rules state: I shouldn't believe anything she says and 50% what she does.
Should I give her a gentle push about this?
And what was the result of last coaching session...suggestion to W that we would spend some family time at least every other week. Only for the kids so they could see that my and Ws relations are ok. Write apology letter to W and give it to her.
Did you write the letter? I did that, but I haven't given it to her. It was a good exercise for me.
I wrote it earlier. We went through it with the coach today. It is a no BS or excuses type of a letter. I don't think it will have any effect on W. Nothing will at this point.
In a another thread sandi wrote about sex. She has wrote about women being capable of having sex with no feelings attached. However if I remember correctly she wrote about kissing being involved. In August my W still initiated sex. At that time she was totally disconnected emotionally. But she initiated sex and she would initiate it by touching my face and kissing me on the mouth. After sex she would cuddle until she fell asleep. The next day like a snap she was totally disconnected again. I know this doesn't matter anymore but can someone tell me what was that all about. Temp checking? Seeing if there's still something?
After sex she would cuddle until she fell asleep. The next day like a snap she was totally disconnected again. I know this doesn't matter anymore but can someone tell me what was that all about. Temp checking? Seeing if there's still something?
petri,
I think it's part of the process of growing apart. Metaphorically, it's hard for them to immediately jump into the cold water so they test waters and then retreat, and test it again and retreat. That process continues until they're willing to take the plunge.
That's a very good explanation D. Very good indeed. I actually asked her about it at the time and she said that isn't it normal to have sex even though we're separating. I thought it was odd. Well it doesn't matter. Bygones are bygones.
W texted again. Telling that their 3 star hotel was overbooked and they were given the option to move to a 4 star hotel. And that they have wi-fi for the whole week if kids want to contact her. That also includes free food and drinks. So I know there's going to be a lot of drinking going on for the next week...should I respond in anyway?
I have forgotten to ask a VERY important question! RINGS! W has obviously taken her own rings off. I did the same after she told me that this is all over, never coming back. Was this a good thing or should I still wear my ring until the D is final?
No rule of thumb. It's a personal choice.
I read somewhere that it's a sign of rejection to take the ring off. But I see it also as a sign of detachment and moving forward.
I now followed up on my coaches advise and asked W if we could spend familytime once a week or every other week. I'll follow up what she answers.
W replied: these things can be talked about face to face and present them to me. It's ok. Once or twice a month how we manage it nd how work schedules etc work out.
Quite nice reply.
She has wrote about women being capable of having sex with no feelings attached. However if I remember correctly she wrote about kissing being involved. In August my W still initiated sex. At that time she was totally disconnected emotionally. But she initiated sex and she would initiate it by touching my face and kissing me on the mouth.
Just to clarify, I didn't mean that all women who are emotionally disconnected will not kiss on the mouth during sex.
I meant that
if she
avoids kissing on the mouth, it is usually a sign of something else going on with her.
I know. W did the emotionally detached sex also. It was a totally different ball game.
D7 came to me tears in her eyes saying she misses mom. I told her to call W via whatsapp. W kept hanging up. D7 then sended W a voicemail. W replied that you can't call now. The W texted me that D7 is trying to call her and she can't do that. I replied that D7 is almost crying b/c she misses you. W then replied that you have to give D7 something else to think about and that D7 can't call her everyday.
Sorry man, that [censored] and it happened to me early on. At first I would tell my W and she really didn't give a $hit. I learned early on that telling the W was a cheeseless tunnel and I just had to handle it myself. 7 months later they don't ask however I still monitor their moods very closely. If things like that come up now I just comfort them, give them a big hug, tell them how much I love them and try to get them thinking about something else.
Thanks J. I gave D7 a big hug and told her that I love her. W texted again saying that she'll try to call the kids tomorrow. And that she doesn't like to hear those messages cause she'll feel bad also.
I love my kids to death. I would and have called them every single day when we're separated.
Our kids haven't asked why we are getting divorce. S11 knows that it's W who has initiated it. But if they were to ask should I be straight honest and tell them to ask W or tell a little lie. W doesn't want to tell them anything besides the fact that we're divorcing.
Why you are divorcing is adult stuff. Not kid stuff. Validate their concerns and their wanting to know why, but don't tell them. Otherwise you risk putting the kids in the middle, oversharing, and causing more pain to them.
I talked with FIL today regarding our house. FIL is not very happy about this sitch. If we sell the house we will have to sell at a price which won't cover the debt. And if I buy W out there will still be debt left for W from the house. I was quite straight forward about everything. I told him that since our marriage is over things need to move somewhere or both me and W will suffer from this current living arrangement. FIL said that he will talk with MIL and W after their vacation. I really don't know how all this is going to end. I'm worried that we'll both end up in bankruptcy.
D7 asked me if I miss W. Intold her that in a way yes I do. D7 told that W had said to her something about me missing W. Don't know if it was about W trying to make D7 feel better. I would guess so.
Just got texts from W. She told she would come straight to our house from airport and spends the night here. And that they're going to a jeep safari and she'll call the kids after that. I told her to have fun at the safari. It was nice that no spew of any kind wasn't involved.
But what I am feeling, a deep gut feeling, is that there is a OM. Don't know why I'm getting this feeling just now.
Just talked to the real estate manager who is selling the apartment which I'm interested in buying. Lots of renovation has been done. And to top it all the interior is pretty much in my liking. So we're going to have a talk with W about putting the house for sale. That's happening on thursday. I'm very relieved that I'm the one setting the pace here for once.
I'm very relieved that I'm the one setting the pace here for once.
Yep!
It's so painful watching the kids suffer. You can't make her be a good parent. Waywardness in a woman touches more than just her H. Some WW's are emotionally disconnected from their own children. It's the pure selfishness in the WW. Her thoughts are centered on whatever she wants at that moment. If her kids call at the wrong time, she can be cold and say hurtful things b/c she does not want to deal with kids at that moment. It's all about her. Some WW's are so cold, their attitude is like......"This is the way it's going to be, so just get over it".
IMHO, I would not leave it up to your W to tell the kids why she wants a D. I believe in being as honest with your kids as possible.......and keep it age appropriate. I would not tell them a white lie or tell them you both decided to D. It's really hard.....and painful! Little ones can't grasp why everyone just can't love each other.
((hugs))
If her kids call at the wrong time, she can be cold and say hurtful things b/c she does not want to deal with kids at that moment.
I've noticed this. There was the sitch with S11 when he started talking very scary things when I was with the kids. In-laws had talked about him being fat and weak as a little girl. S11 actually said: "if I was to die tonight even my ghost would say, that was a sh**ty body anyway". I contacted W the next day and informed her about this and about MIL talking about our S/D at our workplace(we work in the same place with MIL). She replied "I don't want to deal with these on my own time". And she rarely talks to kids when they call her. It's always a bad time...
W just texted that their flight to Finland is delayed at least 13 hours. She seemed pretty pi$$ed and telling how she misses the kids and finnish food. I tried to validate as much as I could. But all I was thinking...karma is a b****. Sorry for that.
If her kids call at the wrong time, she can be cold and say hurtful things b/c she does not want to deal with kids at that moment.
She replied "I don't want to deal with these on my own time". And she rarely talks to kids when they call her. It's always a bad time...
With the kids it is difficult, and I don't think you can control or compensate for your W and how she interacts with the kids. You could talk to your W in as non-confrontational way possible about the kids. I realize you might just get anger, but then you can just drop it and focus on your relationship with the kids.
Fc. Thankfully now we can talk in a friendly way. Hopefully it will continue.
Texts from W today.
"Here now overtired it felt really hard coming back to this house. B/c everythings is so messed up and I don't know what's missing etc etc. Can't really hold my thoughts together very good.
So it would of been easier if we had our own homes. Wouldn't be out as a snowman(finnish idiom, to have no idea what's happening) and anxious.
I did missed alot(probably means kids) but really hard to get anything reasonable done. Like I'm going on a circle and don't know where to start.
Sure I managed to buy food but that went wandering at the store.
But my fatique has just been so bad.
S11 needs help with math and I don't f-ing understand them at all. Really.
And that made me feel miserable that mom doesn't know f-ing math.
And we need to decide about the dogs too.
I probably can't take care of (yonger dog) by myself. I strongly feel she has to go somewhere too.
Those dogs have also always been an eater of my resources(assets?). And now even less I have the time or energy and piece by piece I'm trying to get rid of any overload, things that just make me feel guilty that I have no time or energy for anymore."
Seems like her dogs are consumables. Are the kids next in line? She seems very confused, cold and heartless even...
What is was thinking here...if a loss/losses can snap her, how can it happen when she wants to get rid of everything herself...
I've mentioned before that I work in the field of mental health. I'm studying cognitive therapy at the moment. Today we studied about selfreflection of thoughts and emotions. There were couple of particular things I'd like to share. If any of this resonates with anyone please let me know.
First off thought distortions...
The basic false assumption and mind reading. But this next one is usually said to be the one that REALLY tells if you're right or wrong: emotional inference. You think something is true b/c it "feels right". You leave facts unchecked if they don't support you "emotion".
Then the vicious circle. This wpuld be better if drawn as a picture.
Inner/outer stimulus(the seed is planted)
I.e. "I'm not happy"
Interpretation of threat
I.e. "I'm trapped/I'll never be happy here"
This causes agitation and anxiety which leads to
Physical and psychological symptoms(circle begins)
I.e. Pressure in chest, anxiety, depression
Misinterpretation
I.e. "M/R is causing this, H/W is causing this"
Avoidance and safety precautions(circle ends and begins again)
I.e. Denial, withdrawl, alcohol, nagging etc.
Does this make any sense to anyone?
Petri,
I hope one of the MLC vets stumble across your thread and chime in. Some of the things you describe in her, makes me think MLC. (just to clarify, I have no expertise in that area but have read a lot of threads on the MLC forum, and this look like something I have seen before). The disconnecting from kids, pets and the home, also the mental state she is in appears to be depression, doesn't it?
Btrow. I have thought of MLC. I've read a lot on the subject and lot of it does ring lots of bells. And yes! Depression type of state is where she is. I actually thought in late summer/early autumn that she has clinical depression. She could of had diagnosed according to depression criteria.
But the depression type state is only showing to me. W doesn't want to show herself as weak. But I already saw it before separation so she doesn't have to pretend to me. But this type of behavior is typical to WW also if I've gotten it right. But what I need to do doesn't really change if I've understood things right.
I just read the midlife for dummies. Only two things that do not apply. Custody and divorce. She hasn't wanted custody and she has filed for D. Otherwise everything hits spot on
But what I need to do doesn't really change if I've understood things right.
Yes, your actions/approach/path forward is the same.
She hasn't wanted custody and she has filed for D.
A woman not wanting custody of her children i cannot grasp. That literally screams "crisis" to me.
Whenever I read US boards I always take into account that some things are different there than in my home country. Regarding D, allthough I'm no expert, I'm almost certain the financial implications of being D in the US, is way more far-reaching than in Finland.
A woman not wanting custody of her children i cannot grasp. That literally screams "crisis" to me.
This something that many of our friends have wondered. And they wonder about the dog thing too. The dogs have always been important to her. Now all of a sudden they are a burden to her and always have been. Just like our M/R has been wrong and pure shait from the beginning. And what she said about S11 that she never wanted him. Only had him to please me.
What is was thinking here...if a loss/losses can snap her, how can it happen when she wants to get rid of everything herself...
Some people don't fully understand about the WW having to suffer some type of loss, before she'll start turning back. As for the "snapping out of it", I really wish you would forget it. I am very suspicious of any reports (which I remember only a few) where LBH's claim their WW has suddenly
snapped out of her waywardness and now is her old loving self again. These are cases where it's just a front, and/or she hasn't dealt with her inner issues, and she can't stick with it. So, the waywardness continues. Although, I believe age, health, influences from family/friends, and other circumstances play a part in how long it takes her to recover.....I just have not seen genuine results from those who claimed to have just
snapped out of it.
Also, her "loss" that takes a powerful emotional toll, may not be the tangible things. You may have no idea what that loss is, and it may have nothing directly to do with you. However, the
loss will be directly connected to her waywardness. IMHO, she has to recognize the loss as her consequences, and that she cannot blame anyone else for those results. She has to take responsibility. She did the wrong, and this is her consequence for it. Since her nature as a WW is to blame everything wrong on someone else (mainly her H), and since she is usually highly resentful/angry......it will take a loss that pierces her cold, resentful, hard heart.
In some cases, it may take an accumulative loss, rather than one specific. I had not actually experienced consequences that I could tell, until I had the biggie. However, I had been getting a few glimpses into some things about the OM that bothered me....but not enough to end the A. IMHO, it was all falling into the perfect timing for what was about to hit me. My "biggie" was when my adult daughter informed me that she knew everything about me and OM.
My "loss" was very personal. It was about losing my children's respect for me. Not just as their mother, but there was something that was even
more important to me. For my family, our faith/religion was the foundation for everything in our lives. I had always been a very active teacher in our church, and I had had the privilege of teaching my children at home and in many classes in the church as they were growing up. Seeing them grow up to be devoted and loving Christians, was probably my greatest desire. The last thing I ever wanted to do was something that would negatively influence their faith. I had one teenager that had their young faith shaken by seeing some other people claiming to be Christians, but with actions that were very unchristian.....so I had tried very hard to positively influence them by living and teaching them. That was until my resentfulness toward my H came closer and closer to the surface, until it became a full blown rebellion. I tried to keep the rebellion hidden, but I had allowed my resentment and disrespect for my H to cross the line. It was no longer just feelings, b/c it had taken action, and I had given my attention to OM. When I did, the devil must have been celebrating, b/c it ruined my testimony.
Can you imagine the thoughts and fear that hit me when my daughter told me she knew about the OM? It wasn't fear in the way some might think. It was feeling as if I was watching everything I had taught them as though it was water swirling around and around, going down the drain. Would they think it was all a lie? Would they think all Christians were fake and there was nothing to any of it? I was sure they would believe I was the biggest hypocrite on the planet. However, my greatest fear was them turning away from God, due to my own sins. Perhaps you can or can't identify with how what I taught about my religious belief/faith was so high on my list of most importance. But I can tell you that my heart was pierced until I could not breathe. And, guess where we were when she approached me and told me she knew everything? In the parking lot of our church. At the time, I was trying to go through the outward motions that I thought would be seen, so yes, I was a hypocrite. I was definitely out of fellowship with the plan of God. He has a way of bringing the hidden things to light. And in the light of that day in the church parking lot, I stood before my daughter, guilty of the very thing I had tried so hard to fight.
The pain still comes and goes, and it always will. It was the only time I had ever strayed, but it only takes once to shake the foundation of young believers. I've asked myself if I had had pride about my teaching. I asked myself if I had been judgmental of others who had fell away. I had to admit that it was true. I loved teaching more than eating. It was my passion in life. Pride and judging of others was stripped away. In it's place came humility and sorrow. I was forgiven, but I still live with the memory of the hurt and great, great disappointment that I caused others.
That was my experience and it shook the fantasy and opened my eyes enough to realize I needed someone to talk to me.....and
help me! That's why I found this forum. Anyway, I hope you don't mind me talking about my personal experience and the subject matter around it.
The love for my H didn't come flooding back into my heart as soon as I was busted by my daughter. It was more like a series of things that happened, leading up to that point. Perfect timing. And it took work before I was emotionally ready to put the effort into my MR that was needed. Do you
get that even if your W sees her loss, that doesn't mean she will decide to stay in the M? Some women stick with their decision to divorce. I'm just being honest and realistic with you. Seeing her loss does not fix the problem. It just opens her eyes.
So, I think for you to be looking for
her loss, if that's what you're doing.....is setting yourself up for disappointment. It will chop away at you every time you think she should be able to see what she's losing. In
your eyes, you can see a lot of loss. However, you are not the one drowning in the fantasy fog. It's
her eyes that have to see. There is
something that will shake her so hard that it will begin to crumble her fantasy and she'll be forced to see the reality she has placed herself and her loved one. What she decides to do after seeing the loss....is up to her.
And remember this little note. If she decided today that she wanted to save the M, you would be relieved, I'm sure. And then, you would start going through your own period of feeling like a WAH. In many of the cases where the WW decides to stay, we are reading how the H's fear finally settles down b/c he's not losing his W, and then guess what? He starts experiencing all the emotions he placed on hold when she was dumping him. All he could think about was just getting her back, and once he does.....then he begins feeling anger toward her and feeling as if he deserves more/better than her. Ain't life grand?
((hugs))
Thank you again Sandi. Why I asked about the loss/losses was merely because in my eyes W doesn't give a f about anything. It seems like it doesn't matter if everything goes as long as BFF is there.
And if she was to come back now. Would I give hr a chance? Not without terms. This woman needs therapy. Badly. MC. Sincere apology. Remorse. And all of that is something I've never seen her done/shown.
And Btrow the anxiety and depression she claims to about our house. B/c she hates it. That is the only thing that has been constant in this whole process. It became even before the ILYBINILWY and other BDs.
Then the vicious circle. This wpuld be better if drawn as a picture.
Inner/outer stimulus(the seed is planted)
I.e. "I'm not happy"
Interpretation of threat
I.e. "I'm trapped/I'll never be happy here"
This causes agitation and anxiety which leads to
Physical and psychological symptoms(circle begins)
I.e. Pressure in chest, anxiety, depression
Misinterpretation
I.e. "M/R is causing this, H/W is causing this"
Avoidance and safety precautions(circle ends and begins again)
I.e. Denial, withdrawl, alcohol, nagging etc.
Does this make any sense to anyone?
To me...
I suffered these symptoms. Being surrounded by OW and enablers in an enclosed working environment...having the nice guy behavior: it was very difficult to say NO to something at that time. Too much pressure. Ufff, is not good to recall those days. Anyway I was/am responsible for all my wrong actions. I´m a grown up man so I must face my very very bad choices. I took the way back home then and here I am, at a better place.
Keep walking petri
W just texted me and invited me for dinner tomorrow...what's happening here?
I believe the term you are looking for is cake eating
No one knows. Could be nothing, could be something or it could be major. Let us know tomorrow what it was all about. I'm sure you'll spend a lot of mind reading time until tomorrow and realise your best guess was way off..
My guess is it's nothing. No expectations, no dissapointments.
If you can do that without expectations then well done.
Of course there is a little part of me that hopes that this has some sort of meaning. But rationally thinking I know it does not have any meaning.
Ok. There was no catch in the dinner invite. The dinner went fine. After dinner I asked if now would be a good time finances and the selling of the house. Talk about finances went ok. But when we started to talk about the house things began to went wrong. I told her all the facts about loans and how much we are going to get from the house. We are going to lose on the house. After we sell the house we will have about 28500$ dept per person. She went nuts when she heard this. " We're going to continue this living arrangement till the end!" "I'm so furious right now that I can't talk with you anymore." And then she stormed out of the house. I told S11 that it's probably best if dad leaves now. Said goodbye to S11 and left. On my way I told W to think about what she wants to do. I kept my cool all the way, talked in a calm way. I didn't even feel my heartrate go up.
After we sell the house we will have about 28500$ dept per person. She went nuts when she heard this.
Arh those darn consequenses.. I bet she is blaming petri for the future financial mess, too.
Only downside here is that you also leave with a huge debt. I can't advise you what to do, but that living arrangement can't go on forever. Eventually you have to move on if a recon is out of the question. Did you invest too much in the house, or is it due to a slow market? And neither of you is financially able to keep the house?
It sounds like you handled the situation very well though. Thumbs up! But if you expect that sort of reaction from her every time you interact (and with the kids in the house) maybe you should politely turn down future dinner invitations?
The dept is due to the fact that it includes dept from our older apartment which by her request had to be sold b/c it would of been too small with two kids. And also it includes renovation loan which increased the value of the house about 23000$. That renovation is what she blames me about. Without it the debt wouöd be bigger.
And of course she blames me for this. Everything is my fault. And the living arrangements are not going to stay like this. No way!
Now W is texting like nothing has happened. Moodchanges are nothing new. But I'm afraid that she has something up her sleeve...
Any ideas what to do now if W doesn't want to sell the house. I can't take this sitch much longer. If she wants to keep the arrangements as it is there needs to be some kind of R. Otherwise this just can't go on like this.
If I ask W which real estate agent she wants. If she says we can't afford to sell the house(and she will). Can I then confront her that this was her decision and now is the time that she has to take responsibility for the consequences? And either the house goes for sale or I will not be going to the "separation apartment" anymore.
Can I then confront her that this was her decision and now is the time that she has to take responsibility for the consequences?
I would leave this out of any conversation with her. I think it's ok to state your boundaries though and tell her what you would do if x or y happens.
Have you talked to a lawyer regarding the house on how to handle the situation? I mean, if you do not want that living arrangement anymore the house has to be sold, or worse case scenario, force-sold (not sure that's the correct english term but you know what I mean).
I have not talked to a lawyer. But if she refuses to sell I will. I can get a court order to sell the house and rhat costs money. A lot. But this arrangement can not go on. This is killing us both. Slowly but surely.
But this arrangement can not go on. This is killing us both. Slowly but surely.
What do you mean by the above statement?
She is miserable when she has to be in our house. I'm not happy when I have to be in her apartment. It's eating us both.
W was watching the kids today on her "own" time. Had a brief chat, she made no eyecontact, didn't even look at me. We were supposed to talk about things regarding the kids but she had a bad night, hadn't slept well so that convo didn't happen.
Where are you in the divorce process? Has she shown any indication that she will stop the proceedings? From what you state above she is clearly breaking down and the reality is killing her. It may be a good thing for you and you should expect her emotions to rollercoaster.
The reality is biting her a$$ for sure. But no, she is pushing for the D. She has her inner voice telling her it's the right thing to do. The problem with inner voice is that it's a cognitive distorsion since it's lacking rationality in total. But there is nothing I can do about it. Maybe one day she will figure things out, maybe not. That's out of my control so I can't put my focus on that. My focus is on my kids and me. And trying to solve this living arrangement as quickly as I can. She really got under my skin with this again...
I read from the MLC side that it's usual for the WAS to say things like "move on", "start dating" etc. Why is it then so hard for WAS to let the LBS to do that? It's frustrating.
I read from the MLC side that it's usual for the WAS to say things like "move on", "start dating" etc. Why is it then so hard for WAS to let the LBS to do that? It's frustrating.
Are you saying your W isn't letting you move on? If so, why do you think that?
She has been wanting to sell the house from the start. Now she is refusing to sell it. It's hard to move on when I'm living in the middle of her stuff all the time either in our house or her apartment. I don't think it's about not letting me move on but more about her being afraid she won't make it financially.
I am sure she is worried she won't make it financially.
It's your choice if you want to move on then move on.
I've moved on as much as I can. Now I just need a place where I can go whenever I want and call it home. I don't have that at the moment and I can't have it until W is willing to sell the house.
Pet,
I am trying to help you but your making my head hurt. Your W filed for divorce correct? Either you or her keep the house or you sell it. If you want out that bad let her keep the house and find a new one.
I hear you, Petri. We're doing the separation apartment deal, too. This is week two. The kids stay in the main house and we bounce back and forth.
Lh. That's the fricking point here! W has said time and time again that the house needs to be sold. Now that I've done everything ready so we can go on with the process she said NO! And the reason is that she is afraid that she won't have any money to keep her life at the standard it is now. She can't afford to keep the house by herself and I can't either. I will try to talk to her about this next wednesday when we have appointment with a social worker regarding custody etc.
Sub. We've been doing this since september. If LH19s head hurts...so does mine...
I need to get my sh## together. I'm starting to lose it. I had it all figured out. The idea was to take me and the house W hates out of the equation. Every time I have things working out, even a little, W manages to pull the rug right under me.
Just say W this Nesting isn't working for me anymore. I am not leaving the house anymore and you are welcome to move back in until the D is final. I can't afford to keep the house so if you want it you will have to buy me out of my share of the house.
Then politely end the discussion and walk away.
I've done that once. She agreed then but not anymore. I will do it again. There is a final way, which might be far from DBing, getting a court order to sell the house. That's something I really don't want to do. I believe that W will understand that selling the house is for the best now. It will put financial lives in down spiral for the both of us.
And this is hard for the kids too. W has told them earlier that the house is going to be sold. So they don't know what's going happen either and they're just waiting. S11 said yesterday, when I told him to go to bed, "I'll go to my room while it's still my room. Soon it won't be my room anymore". I happened to look at W when S11 said that. It hit her. Deep down.
She agreed to what? Your writing is very confusing.
Why do you need a court order it will play out in the divorce?
I have told her that this arrangement isn't working for me and I can't afford to keep the house by myself. She agreed that THIS LIVING ARRANGEMENT IS NOT WORKING AND THAT WE SHOULD SELL THE HOUSE. Now she has changed her mind about selling the house.
Even when the D is finalized we both need to agree about selling the house. If the other doesn't want to sell, we can't sell the f-ing house then. That's the way this works here in Finland. In Finland we do not go to court when getting D. It is a stamp on sentenced to D. There are no hearings etc.
When it comes to property either spouses talk things through or they hire an outsider to do it. If there comes some disagreement even with the outsider then we go to court.
I asked W if I contact the real estate agent on monday and we proceed regarding the house. Now it was ok again. So that's that.
Perfect! Now continue to DB.
I will! And sorry LH! I seemed to be a little out of line. I'm just emotionally exhausted right now. But hopefully things will get better now.
No problem I get it. With time and distance you will realize that this is not the end of the world. Just keep moving forward and try to get a little better every day.