This is my 8th thread. My previous one:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2764291&page=1My sitch, if you haven't been following it:
In a nutshell, my profile is down there at the bottom. After a long period of neglect, definitely classifiable as a "sex-starved marriage", my W began EA with a close friend last October after I had gone to him for help with my M and basically revealed my W's vulnerabilities. There had been warning signs-- she had come to me a couple three times over past two years telling me how sad/lonely/lost/dead-inside she felt, and I pretty much turned it back on her every time, though one time I did ask her "not to leave" when it looked like she was going to. Anyway, BD in January when I overhear convo between her and OM.
I was weak and desperate at first, but within less than two weeks after BD was really doing a great job with GAL's and 180s, and W noticed. Problem was, she was not a WAW but rather a WW, wanting to enjoy the single life, "girls gone wild" lifestyle with her single/divorced/separated friends, particularly her bff, also a WW(curiously enough, married to my own bff). I didn't handle my interactions with her all that well for a few weeks, wavering between "pursuit" and enablement. Finally got buckled down, though, and GALs and 180s really kicked in and W noticed.
Looked like A was going to or had even already died of natural causes... and then something happened. Still dont' know what. A meet up or night out or party or something and it rekindled. W bought a burner phone which I later found out about.
Beginning of June I tell her my boundary that "I wont share her or live in an open marriage". She indicates that cheater phone is gone and she will NC with OM. There is a big blow up night only a week later where she, I and her bff (who, it turns out, is now a good friend of OM and a major enabler my W's A) had too much to drink, said too much, and my W ended up sneaking out after we went home to meet up with bff and OM. She did NOT know I knew about this, and I did not confront her thinking we could "use a reset" based on events. I do put up some surveillance on her and late June, not long before we are to start intensive therapy, I "catch" her in two fairly intimate/emotional encounters with OM.
I go dark for four days during which she pursues me relentlessly. She finally corners me into a talk where she talks about all the things SHE did wrong in our MR that led us to this point... and then I tell her what i know about her and OM. She then takes several steps (without promising me full transparency or committing fully to working on MR) that lead me to believe she is really "Trying" in her own way. This turns out to be false as of 7/23 when I find out she has purchased a second burner phone and she confesses to fairly regular text and phone contact with OM. I walked off and left her at car that night, slept in separate BR, etc. and pretty much "go dark", wont even talk to her about it. She keeps after me by phone and text for two days, eventually corners me into a convo, says tearfully that she is sorry she hurt me, that she had been "working up to" cold-turkey no contact with OM (a self-contradiction, yes) and that she had called OM to break it off and destroyed her extra phone (heard that one before) and that she wanted to work on trying to "figure us out." I tell her that it's not going to be that easy, that I am not sure that I can or should trust her and not sure that I want to try to work things out any more.
A week later (8/1, I think), I confront OM and, in an ugly exchange, tell him I know everything and to stay away from my wife and family. While somewhat cathartic for me on some level, this brings back a lot of pain and hurtful feelings/memories for both me and W. We talk about it and she is still bothered by thought that she has "hurt" OM and that he may have been further "hurt" by my confrontation. She also said she is "not sure" what she wants to do about us. I listen but say little. That weekend, we talk again, and I reiterate that "maybe we need some time on our own" and she says (for what seems like the 20th time) that she is tired of all the "pain" and "negativity" and wishes we could just push the "reset" button and let "Monday be Monday and Tuesday by Tuesday without all the painful relationship talk." She also thinks we should just try to "be in the moment" and "try to have fun". I tell her that I am not willing to keep living with the uncertainty, that I am still not certain I can trust her, and that if she wanted to, as she said, "work on figuring us out" I would need some things, including solid assurances the OM was "gone" and to know that she was committed to the process and that we'd get professional help.
At that point, she starts behaving in exemplary fashion. She pretty much doesn't leave the house unless its with me, is letting me track her phone, did not even ask to see her bff (until very recently), and started coming by one of my GAL hangouts where I was going once a week after work. After the discovery of second burner phone, we slept apart for a while but eventually she joined me in 2nd BR and we have been "sleeping" (that's all, sadly) together ever since.
We have progressively been doing more and more things socially, and generally having a lot of fun, and she had been gradually warming up to me, evidenced mainly by increased comfort with me, increasing willingness to touch and be touched by me, and inviting me to do some things she used to do alone, (even shopping.) Unfortunately, though, we are still kind of in a limbo where she is not as eager to go rehashing or working through the pain we caused each other, and would prefer to just go out and "have fun" and see if "lightning can strike" and she can get those romantic, intimate feelings back. She has more recently said in counseling that she understands that we are going to have to be more deliberate and "just do it" if we are to get that intimate component back. MC has assigned us some reading to do and we are supposed to circle back with her in the coming week or two. W says that everything now between us is as good as or better than its ever been, except for that one missing piece (sex/intimacy-- yes, a big piece). She has agreed to go continue counseling, including IC, which I told her was a must but has shown varying degrees of commitment to it... sometimes seeming very energetic and taking the initiative on the projects/work MC gives us, but sometimes letting it lapse. MC said we were going to have to a)work through some of our individual issues in IC 2) Do some work on forgiveness and trust and processing the hurts we had caused each other and 3) Get comfortable with the idea of physical intimacy between us which at times is kind of awkward and weird under the circumstances. Both MC and DB coach's suggestions basically amount to "just do it" (not necessarily sex, but any physical contact.) W agreed that 1 and 3 were necessary, and is coming around about 2, but admits it feels awkward and weird. Weve had an increasing number of of really, really good, fun spontaneous nights, including a fair amount of physical contact, hugs, us falling asleep holding each other.
About a month ago, however, she has experienced a set-back/pull-back. She has been quieter, withdrawn, kind of moody and sullen, and definitely less warm and friendly. This period came right after her losing a close friend from college to a sudden heart attack, followed closely by toxic bff calling her from OM's bar with OM and crew in attendance to "say hi" to her. On the call, she was in tears, but admitted she "really wanted to be there" (she does not know I know about this convo.) The night of the afternoon she had that convo was our really good night out where she started out sad and quiet but really livened up by end of evening (she even through out a couple of playful sexual innuendos) and we fell asleep in each others arms. Other than that, though, the ten days to two weeks around that time were really kind of a downswing. Since then, however, she has bounced back quite a bit, though she still has "down" spells. I am not monitoring her regularly, though do spot check from time to time. Nothing to tell though she has, as recently as 10 days ago, "driven by" OM's old hangout but not stopped, gone in or, near as I can tell, contacted him.
Her bff is still a potential problem/hurdle, but bff is a lifelong friend and someone who, despite bff's very questionable lifestyle morals and decisionmaking, my W trusts... probably more than anyone including myself, and bff is definitely preaching the positives of divorce, single-hood, and the OM. She recently "reconnected" with bff (who lives an hour away but journeys here weekly for work) after about a month of layoff, and I have consented to her visiting the one time (where she to all appearances behaved herself). BFF clearly went way over the line last month though with the intentional call from the OM's bar to try to entice my W to come out and meet her and OM (my W declined, but admitted she "really wanted to" and then also declined a dinner invite from bff for later that night and then again the following day... but she definitely spent some time in a funk afterwards, and again for an evening after reading some news about OM's son.)
For my part, and GAL, Feels like I've actually made a lot of progress personally, even if my M is not. Some of that has stagnated as I have made more time to "be around" my W while she is going through withdrawals from the OM/A, because I suffered a chest injury a few weeks back, and because I have felt funny about going out "on my own" when she is intentionally NOT doing so.
So, that^^^ was the long version. The quick version of where I am now:
W is to all appearances in "Affair Recovery" mode. Sometimes fine, sometimes moody and pouty. Mentions of the OM or his family or hearing about them or reading about them in print (OM's son is our HS's quarterback on the football team) definitely still have an effect on her and put her in a bit of a funk. She is, however, behaving herself... letting me know where she is, only going out of the house with me (except for twice, now, with bff, both at bff's house an hour south of her). Only recent blemish has been her driving out of her way to go by OMs hangouts a couple of weeks back... though she later mentioned she'd been by that way as if it were the normal way for her to go.
Biggest issue for us right now is trying to restore intimacy. We have restored a very nice level of friendship and warmth to our relationship, and she has bit by bit become more comfortable with physical gestures-- leaning her head on my shoulder when she laughs, leaning against me with my arm around her when we are talking to S19 on the phone, touching legs with me when we are out sitting together at a club or restaurant, letting me put my arm around her some at same, and sleeping closer to me in bed. But... it is still clearly a bit awkward for her, and I am still not getting that "kiss me you fool" vibe/look that girls give when they want to be kissed, though I have caught her "eyeing me up" more often these days. It's a tough nut to crack... I know from talking to her that she has, in the past, wanted to just be "thrown down and taken", but I am really really not getting the kind of vibe or signals or body language that she is at all interested in that kind of interplay right now, even as she has "warmed up." Both MC and DB Coach (citing MWD's books) have said at some point you need to "just do it" (not sex per se, but the touching part so that we get more used to it and over the awkwardness) BUT that I should take it slow and transition slowly from the more casual, non-sexual touches to the more involved ones, following her body language, responsiveness, and other clues. ((For those familiar with the term, it sounds somewhat similar to "Kino" touching). I understand the concept/theory, and normally am not uncertain as to how and when to advance things with a member of the opposite sex but... the rules just seem like they're different here than they would be with any other girl... and it is HARD. Hard because of the uncertainty, but also hard because on the one hand I don't want to overbear her or spook her away but, OTOH... I kinda sort desparately WANT the woman... if you know what I mean.
Cold shower time.
hoosjim,
It's good that it's hard, otherwise you wouldn't be able to do it.
I have no advice for you; if I were in the same situation, I wouldn't know how to approach my wife. I'd probably use an overt approach, but I'd do it in a setting where nothing could actually happen. For example, spontaneously humping her leg in a public place. That would be awesome regardless of the outcome.
You seem to want to jump from light touching right to sex. There is an in between, you know. And women really like the in between. Have you initiated light touch, hand holding, or cuddling in bed?
It's funny that Ginger mentions the in between. Because the OM never does the in between stuff. They always just go at it with them in the bedroom. And now you find yourself tiptoeing just to be intimate. I can imagine how frustrating that may seem. That the woman who claims to love you is suddenly acting cautious around you of all people. Stay the course, but if your like me at some point this will bother you as time goes on. Just try not to snap.
You seem to want to jump from light touching right to sex. There is an in between, you know. And women really like the in between. Have you initiated light touch, hand holding, or cuddling in bed?
Yeah, I know. That's the hard part, I guess, because we
have been married and
have had sex... just seems weird on some level not to be able to get back to that. But not just that, the whole romantic/intimate love piece... You know, the kissing, the snuggling, the making out (which a lot of guys, including myself, actually kind of like, too). I mean, its been a while, but I still remember how she used to look at me, heck, how
most women look at you when they are interested... when they want to be kissed. I see small flashes of that here and there, but for the most part, it is I who have been doing the initiating. With light touch, mostly, and she has been increasingly accepting/receptive to this (back during while the A was at it's height, and shortly after, she actually found it off-putting.) She still finds it kind of awkward, but, from time to time she has been increasingly leaning in to me, reaching out to me, etc. But it is still relatively rare.
What I fear is not being aggressive
enough, as we definitely had a SSM before (for a number of reasons I wont again belabor here) and has talked a lot about that being a missing element, although not just the sex ("It's about more than just sex" I have heard her say to me a couple of times and even once to OM in one of the recorded conversations) but the whole intimacy piece.
She's also a bit tough to figure out sometimes. She has told me a couple of times that "sometimes she likes it rough" and that sometimes she just wants to be "thrown down and taken", but... then she also has made it a point to talk about how important the
whole intimacy piece is... and even that she also "wants a gentlemen." One of the things that came out in counseling was that the first thing that really caught her interest about OM was that he hustled ahead to get the door for her when they went for coffee (back when he was just "our friend" and she started to confide in him about our MR problems) and then when he later went out of his way to help an elderly man up and out the door. "So which is it" I feel like screaming, and
when? Warm, Gentlemanly do-gooder, or rowdy bad-boy sex monster? I can be both, but not always clear what she wants, and when, and when she is ready for it.
Because of my previous neglect for her, I suspect there will be a bit of a "show me" attitude within her in terms of our future intimacy, but... even so, I'd expect to be getting some more cues from her than I am.
Then again, we are only NC +3.5 or 4 months (depending on how you reckon it), so she could be and probably is (our MC says it usually takes about a year to completely "get over it") still mourning the A and affected by that.
Arrrrgh....
Oh great.
And now, W wants to go have dinner with bff tomorrow (Thursday) night. Locally. She has twice gone to visit bff at bff's house, about an hour and a half south of here, and, oddly, I am much more comfortable with that. Primarily because that's a small town, and my own best friend lives there, is well liked, and knows basically everyone including my W's bff who is his own STBXW. And she (W) checks in regularly enough that I know she couldn't be up to anything down there. Locally, in our own city (we live in a fairly large metro area), there is much more opportunity, and, indeed, temptation, with OM and his hangouts easily accessbile and his friendship with bff still intact. Not to mention bff's shown proclivity to enable and even encourage my W to stray.
Most recently, bff had, about a month or so back, phoned up my W from OM's favorite bar, with OM and pals there shouting "Hi Mrs Hoosjim, we miss you, come on over!" which brought my W to tears and put her in a funk for close to a week. Bff even threw in a "Oh, I see, doing what you're 'SUPPOSED to do', I remember living my life that way.." when my W said she couldn't come. A little more recently, though, bff had contact me W about a festival in her home town and said "why don't you and hoosjim come down", so maybe she is softening. Idunno. But I am not very happy at the prospect of my W being put to that kind of test right now. Holidays are a very challenging and vulnerable time for her...
MC has advised us to be "completely open and honest", so I feel like I should tell her "I don't feel good about this, given past history... I'd really like it if you'd call or text me a couple times while you're out." Of course, I could always "track" her, and her phone is susceptible to tracking as is... but she can always leave her car and always leave her phone in it. Plus, I'd obviously much rather she tell me she understands and just check in with me. OTOH, asking her to do so seems like it could be pretty counterproductive to where we are.
Wish bff would hurry up and move the hell out of state. Of course then there will still be her constant FB posts about how "wonderful/happy/magical her life is" right now... that is, how great it is with her AP who happens to be my own best friends FORMER good friend. "Hey look at me, look how fun and good infidelity is!"
Grrrrr...
She's also a bit tough to figure out sometimes.
hoosjim,
This probably doesn't apply to your situation, but I'll mention it just 'cause. My XW had a variety of sexual likes and dislikes that would even change dramatically during sex. Sometimes it would become downright scary.
Before we married, I knew she'd been sexually assaulted by an ex-boyfriend, but after a number of years of marriage, she revealed she'd been sexually abused as a young child (it's a long story - and it's truly horrendous). Many of her memories were repressed so she often wasn't aware of the past abuse until she'd be triggered, often during sexual situations.
Anyway, your wife probably does not have the background of abuse that my XW has, but I'm relaying my story because, on one hand, my XW would often request things that I was afraid would be hurtful (I wouldn't comply with those requests), and other times, she wanted soft and gentle touches.
I think we all like different things at different times, but my wife went to extremes. If your wife is difficult to figure out at times, she might have some lingering fears or concerns that she may not be aware of.
So here's another issue: How do you navigate the "I'm fat" or "I need to lose 15 pounds" minefield with a recovering Ww/WAW? Been hearing this from mine more and more, and seems like a "h just keep your mouth shut" no-win situation. Bottom line my W is a knockout and pretty much everyone agrees."has she put on on 10 to 15 pounds over the last 10 month or so? Idunno, its possible. She says some of her older cute it fits she likes to wear don't fit right now, so I'll take her at her word, but, bottom line is I think she still looks amazing. Could she lose 10 to 15 pounds,without looking emaciated? Sure, I suppose. But aside from being able to "fit" into certain clothes, she definitely doesn't NEED to lose it.
All this is complicated by the previous neglect and her skepticism that my compliments are sincere sometime. (At least they don't piss her off like they did as of a few months ago... she is warming up. Still, what's every ones thoughts on navigating this conversational tightrope? How do you validate and not contradict her feelings while still letting her know and making her feel like she looks amazing?
I would blame it on the clothes, saying they must be shrinking in the cold winter air. Then present it as a challenge to keep up with the shrinking size of the clothes by going on daily walks/runs, bike rides together so it doesn't cost a fortune to buy all new non shrinking clothes.
And on a side note, when asked "do these jeans make my butt look big", I like to reply "no, your butt does that all on its own". Good Times always follow
Like you said, it is pretty much of a no win situation for the H. I think you need
not to try and convince her. She doesn't feel good about herself. All you can do is compliment her. If you over kill.......she'll tune it out. She wants to hear someone who is unbiased tell her she looks good. I've heard some women make the statement about their H, "Well, he
has to say I look good". Which, I think they mean he is biased b/c he loves her. It's like when a stranger gives you a compliment, or you run into an old classmate and they say you haven't aged......it makes you feel good.
I don't mean to sound as if a W doesn't want her H's compliments, however, we know the H sees through eyes of love.......which means (to many women) that the H would naturally say she looks fine. On the other hand, it's a minefield b/c if he sounds as if he is suggesting, or agrees, she should lose weight.......then she gets an attitude toward him.
Just listen when she talks. If she asks what you think, say something like, "I think you are beautiful just as you are, but if you don't feel good about yourself, and if you want to do something.....I'll support it, as long as it's healthy".
Have you thought about inviting her to go workout at at the gym with you? That could be a shared activity.
I'd say "bring that sexy ass over here" then smack it.
Seriously though. Women do like a guy who could treat her like a gentleman and then man up in the bedroom. Just like a guy likes a "lady in the street and a freak in the bed".
Emotional intimacy makes someone comfortable with the domination aspect. someone who is neglectful then throws you on the bed really isn't all that appealing.
I do think you are overthinking a tad much, scared to have her withdraw or want to go back to OM. I understand it, but relax a little and go with the flow a bit.
So here's another issue: How do you navigate the "I'm fat" or "I need to lose 15 pounds" minefield with a recovering Ww/WAW
You say "well, I think you're absolutely beautiful as you are but if it's important to you then it's important to me so how can I help?"
Btw, have you given your W a real kiss, lately?
So here's another issue: How do you navigate the "I'm fat" or "I need to lose 15 pounds" minefield with a recovering Ww/WAW? Been hearing this from mine more and more, and seems like a "h just keep your mouth shut" no-win situation.
VALIDATE. Sometimes I feel like a broken record around here, but the answer is VALIDATE. You do not want to disagree with her, because she is expressing her feelings and no matter what you see (IE, that she looks great) SHE sees something she's unhappy with. So ask her how it makes her feel. Is she unhappy? Sad? Depressed? Frustrated? Ask her questions that will get her to open up about those feelings. Then offer empathy- "I'm sorry you're feeling frustrated, is there anything I can do to help? Do you think it's because you've gained a few pounds or is it maybe for another reason?" Remember, validating is not agreeing/ disagreeing/ arguing/ explaining/ reasoning. It's just getting her to open up about her feelings.
Bottom line my W is a knockout and pretty much everyone agrees.
It doesn't matter. It's what she feels that matters.
All this is complicated by the previous neglect and her skepticism that my compliments are sincere sometime.
Have you done the 5LL quiz with her to determine her primary LL? It sounds like you're assuming (or maybe you know) that it's WoA but it may be something else.
How do you validate and not contradict her feelings while still letting her know and making her feel like she looks amazing?
Validating is the complete opposite of contradicting her feelings. It is UNDERSTANDING her feelings, NOT denying them. Compliments are NOT validation. Compliments are great at the right time and place. But if she says "I feel fat and ugly" that is not the time to say "you're crazy, I think you look great and so does everyone else!" Because all she hears is you disagreeing with her, and that expresses a lack of understanding and empathy. Right?
Oops, posted that without seeing there was a 2nd page of responses. Looks like we're all pretty much expressing the same sentiments
Wow, so much great feedback, y'all, thanks! Where to begin...
Sandi:
Btw, have you given your W a real kiss, lately?
Are you kidding? I would LOVE to kiss my wife. She is a
great kisser. In fact, very hard to kiss her without thinking about it leading to other things... However... As I indicated in my previous posts, Im at a bit of a quandary here. Once or twice I have given her a "peck" when hugging her, or in church when exchanging "greetings" (She has done same) but no romantic, on the lips smackeroos. I just don't get that vibe from her. I've always thought I've had a pretty good read on when a woman wants to be kissed, but, then again maybe I am missing something here with the sitch as unusual as it is. We has a LONG period of drawing apart, then the A, and now this sort of uncomfortable/awkward reconnecting. Not really uncomfortable overall, because it is nice, but... we just haven't had that romantic spark. She has, a couple of times, made suggestive comments under her breath, almost in joking, but then retracted or said "nothing" when I'd say "what?!". She's also warmed up but. Idunno, maybe she's waiting for me to take her head in my hands and just kiss her but... If so Im definitely not getting that vibe. MC has advised us to work on being deliberate about intimacy and touch to get used to it feeling more natural, and part of that would eventually include kissing and such, but we have not been doing anything "structured" there (which we are supposed to... we have a book and have each looked at it but neither one has forced the issue. We have a Skype MC session next week, so maybe I could use that to suggest we get more serious about that reading and such this weekend.
Stander, thanks, that is a GREAT explanation. A lot of others said similar such things, sure, but you really rolled t all up into one nice succinct all-inclusive enchilada. Thanks again.
Finally... Ugh... Having some bad flashbacks today. You'll recall, W approached me about going out with bff locally tonight "for dinner and maybe a drink" and "maybe I'll do a little clothes shopping, later if I don't eat myself up a size at dinner". I voiced my concerns about this in a post above, but it hit me across the face and my mind started spinning just about 30 mins ago. Dropped in to her office to say hi, since I was across the hall having PT on my shoulder (I was seen by a doctor at the practice she works at). Got up to her window and chit chatted for a couple... don't think she expected to see me. She had a carry bag of "hot" going out clothes-- sexy jeans, knee-high boots, etc-- half pushed under her desk (I hadn't seen her go out this morning as I was at the gym early), and she was also wearing earrings that I am pretty sure OM got her and also a bracelet that I am more sure he did for her birthday. Neither expensive but, pretty. And she had given up wearing them (particularly the earrings )for a while after having pretty much worn them non-stop during the course of the A, which sort of reinforced my belief that they were from OM. She stopped wearing them much around end of August about the same time she took down her Facebook background picture which consisted of flower petals that I know damned well-well, say 90%- OM got her. I have no surveillance up on her right now... other than the fact that I can locate her phone-- a fact she is well aware of and which she could easily defeat by leaving it in her or bff's car while they went somewhere else. Am I being crazy here? Should I mention to her that I don't feel great about this? Ask her to "look, just check in with me a couple of times by text or something so I feel safer about this"? Or just let it go. I definitely don't trust the dynamic of her and bff locally (as I described in my above post). Bff calling from OM's bar so they all could say "hi" to my W is still too fresh in my mind (only about four weeks ago.) Thoughts?
Am I being crazy here? Should I mention to her that I don't feel great about this? Ask her to "look, just check in with me a couple of times by text or something so I feel safer about this"? Or just let it go.
hoosjim,
Clearly she's sneaking around for a reason and it's not because you're a control freak. In my humble opinion, it's time for a heart-to-heart conversation with her that includes what's not acceptable and what'll happen when the unacceptable event occurs (otherwise called a boundary). And you can tell her that you'll get doodler to come pack her sh*t and toss her out. So there!
Hmm, I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with doodler... But only because his posts are usually outside the boundaries of reality and usually just meant to be a paradox to life, I.e., meant to make us laugh during a time that we are afraid to do so.
I, like doodler, have detached, and can now see the forest for the trees (or is it the forest through the trees, never was quite sure), but I digress.. What I'm trying to say is stop walking on egg shells, at this point she either wants to make it work or she doesn't. Either call her out on what you saw, or think of what you saw, or tell her you will be joining them for dinner. I don't really see why she wouldn't want you part of her and bff's friendship if you are the one for her.. At the very least, it will stop you from wondering.
There is no reason that I can see her needing to keep your M separate from hanging out with bff unless there is a separate life when hanging out with BFF.
Jim,
No, no, no. She has caused a boundary. She and you both know she shouldnt be wearing things the OM bought. Also she wore them, at her office where you coukdnt see them.
If it don't feel right, it's most likely not. You know the feeling. We all on this thread do. Dont ignore it. You need to confront her. Tough love! She has relasped. Dont be passuve on this issue.
There is no reason that I can see her needing to keep your M separate from hanging out with bff unless there is a separate life when hanging out with BFF.
You mean, aside from the fact that bff helped enable her in the A and also cheated on
my best friend (her STBXH) THREE TIMES... the last with a mutual friend. And that I can't stand her and the feeling is likely mutual?
And yes, this dynamic definitely needs to be addressed if we are to make a go of it.
JoeJoe:
No, no, no. She has caused a boundary. She and you both know she shouldnt be wearing things the OM bought. Also she wore them, at her office where you coukdnt see them.
That's just the thing... I
dontknow. I suspect in one instance (earrings, which she pretty much wore constantly until she distanced from OM, but which she easily could have purchased and just tired of), and somewhat more strongly suspect in the case of the bracelet (which showed up oddly right after her birthday when she had a couple of unaccounted for lunchtime outings out to OM's neck of the woods). I really don't know for sure and have never broached the subject and, TBH, at this point i think i risk coming off paranoid/insecure/controlling if I bring it up... especially if I am wrong. The only thing I am near certain he gave her and that she hung on to a while was the flowers where she kept the picture up on FB for a while... but, like i said, she took that down in favor of a picture of our two boys at about the same time she had her come to Jesus moment. I suppose i could bring it up in counselling or elsewhere that, generally, "anything she might have that OM gave her" should probably be disposed of in the interests of moving forward. Not sure what my seguay into that is, though.
FWIW, no indication she misbehaved last night. She texted me at sufficient intervals that I know she couldn't have ditched her phone, which did track as being where she said she would be (Restaurant at the mall). Now, OM could, of course, have showed up there and I'd have no way to know, but this mall and this restaurant is a popular destination and really close to our neighborhood (unlike OM's typical haunts) and we have relatively frequently seen neighbors or friends there, so it would have been pretty risky. OTOH, she was a bit more distant and avoiding of touch this morning.
Jim....IMO you have every right to know where those items came from and your W should be very willing to tell you if she is committed to your MR. Personally if I were in your shoes it would bother me if she was wearing things that OM gave her. I would tell my W that anything associated with OM needs to go into the dumpster.
hoosjim,
My opinion is that there's a lot of cognitive dissonance (aka fog) on your part. I may well be wrong.
A quote from my MC/IC that I've quoted many times because I think it's a good quote to quote on those occasions that I need a good quote: Look, this is how marriage works, if one spouse doesn't like the other spouse's friend, then the friend has to go.
That means the spouse puts the marriage before the friend which is how it should be. I don't think your wife would do that.
Look, this is how marriage works, if one spouse doesn't like the other spouse's friend, then the friend has to go.
That means the spouse puts the marriage before the friend which is how it should be. I don't think your wife would do that.
In general, I am in full agreement. However, I also see the merit with what Sandi2 has said to me relatively recently which is that laying down the law WRT to her bff at this point is only liable to push her away and back into rebellion... that at some point as part of her "recovery" she needs to understand that relationship with bff is not a healthy one and that bff's lifestyle is not consistent with W and I having a happy, committed, and complete marriage. Sometimes I think she is close to "getting there", as when she pretty much cut herself off from bff for nearly a month, or when she said she was "reevaluating all her friendships, including with bff". Then, other times, as in counselling (although this was VERY early on in counselling, when she was still actively seeing OM) when MC suggested that friendship needed to end and W later said to me "well, THAT aint going to happen." BFF is pretty much her lifelong best friend... not that I think for one moment that that should take precedence over our M or even be allowed to impinge on our M but... it's a relationship she is not going to give up easily, and I am not sure it is in my or our marriage's best interests
at this particular point to be pushing her on that issue myself. Maybe if she were to get into IC (as she has said repeatedly she needs to and will but to date has not) the IC/MC can promote that idea a bit more.
You know what would really make me feel better/safer right now would be if we were to start wearing our rings again. Of course, I effed that up by losing mine. Not to mention which I had been wanting to save that for renewing our vows, etc., if we ever reached that point.
hoosjim,
I'd take Sandi's advice over doodler's every time. By the way, I'd be happy to loan you my ring.
I am going to start with asking you this:
Do you want her to wear the rings to symbolize her commitment to you or to ward off men when she goes out with her BFF?
If your gut is telling you something, listen to it. I have this awful habit myself of my gut so loudly telling me something, yet I write myself off as "I must be crazy/paranoid" because I am scared of finding out a truth or having an unwanted consequence of addressing it (I.e, she choses BFF over you)
But I will tell you this much. My gut has been right EVERY.SINGLE.TIME. If something is making you uncomfortable, there is a reason.
Oh man! That jewelery needs to go pronto! Anything that she ever got from OM or is a reminder of OM has to go. I don't think you're paranoid or controlling if you talk about that upfront. You're in your full right to have that as part of your recon process.
Also, the gut. As Ginger said, if it smells like smoke, there is definitely a raging fire going. Don't brush it aside. I would address it head on.
I get that she's evaluating her relationship with her bff and you know best how to handle it. But, the material stuff from OM and your gut, you have to handle that $hit.
IMO, it seems to me you are making every provision not to make your W upset. But on her end she's is not as committed at not making you upset. Why are you afraid to bring something up to the woman that suppose to be your BF, that something she has done is bothering you.
You'll should be able to tell each other everything and if you are holding back how you feel, its not healthy for you or the M.
You seem to be avoidant of anything that might make your W upset or mad.
Her BFF should be taking a backseat to her M. I understand not trying to tear that relationship up. But if you a uncomfortable with her relationship with the BFF, W should put that relationship on a hold for a while.
She should be fighting for you to be in her life and it seems like it's the other way around at the moment.
I have also noticed, you posted about how the jewelry made you feel, then when you got advice on here, you defended her wearing because you didn't have evidence of where see got it from. In your heart you know where she got it from. Did you buy it for her? If not, I don't see why asking where they came from would be a big deal.
I hope what I posted didnt sound to harsh.
Here's the thing to remember about this journey. There is usually some adjustments to make before you arrive at your destination.
I don't remember the jewelry. I apologize if you mentioned it. My memory isn't as good as it once was.
Let me clearly state that when a WW has ended contact with her OM, nothing can be saved that had any attachment to the A/OM. That's why all old texts, FB, photos, etc., must be deleted. No keepsakes from their hangout, date, or whatever, can be saved. And most assuredly, no gifts from OM. Wearing his jewelry is her message to the OM that she has turned on the green light.
I understand being cautious not to appear paranoid, but you really should have asked about the jewelry. You
are her H, and if she's clinging to anything sentimental from OM.....it has to go. It makes no difference how much she likes it, how expensive it may be, or how nice it looks on her. It will forever be an attachment to OM. She should place your concerns and need to feel safe in the MR before her friends, things, and certainly anything connected to OM.
Put this jewelry with her new, sexy clothes; going out again with BFF; slacking off the MC homework and not following through with IC; and not wearing her wedding ring after reconciling.........adds up to reasonable doubt. I understand how her momentum could lower about the MC. I don't fault her for the new clothes. Not wearing her wedding ring and then putting on this questionable jewelry.........worries me.
I don't tell many people to do this, but I think you need to either put the surveillance up, or talk to her about your feelings. If she agreed to transparency, then she doesn't have anything to hide.........right? But your gut continues to protest. If the two of you have agreed to work on the MR.....then you are allowed to talk about how all of these actions cause you concern. After all, she cheated on you! IMHO, she is beginning to fall away, and she may think she has you in a place of trust for a while linger. Perhaps it's the effect from visiting with BFF, IDK. She has not worked enough to earn your complete trust, yet. But that's just my thinking.
Check it out, and if nothing shows up.....take the surveillance down again. It's spot checking, or as some call it.....gathering intell. It may relieve your mind.......or you may see something that is devastating. You have to decide what you can live with, and what you can't stand not knowing.
((hugs))
Thanks, Sandi. Especially for the hugs. Need it on this roller coaster.
I understand being cautious not to appear paranoid, but you really should have asked about the jewelry. You are her H, and if she's clinging to anything sentimental from OM.....it has to go. It makes no difference how much she likes it, how expensive it may be, or how nice it looks on her. It will forever be an attachment to OM. She should place your concerns and need to feel safe in the MR before her friends, things, and certainly anything connected to OM.
I obviously should have asked this question at the point I had my suspicions, and I absolutely get and agree that all vestiges of relationship with OM (including gifts) have to go, but... Honest question: What is really the point of asking that question now? Either I am right, and one or both are gifts from OM (in which case she is being deceptive to me know and, presumably, would just lie and say she bought them for herself or the like), or I am wrong and she actually did buy them for herself or the like. Either way, her answer to me will be the same ""No, OM didn't buy them for me, I bought them for myself." I learn nothing and then she a) is tipped off that I am suspcicious if she is actually up to something, making it more likely she stays "underground" OR b) thinks I am becoming paranoid and focusing on the OM and the past instead of on advancing our MR.
I don't tell many people to do this, but I think you need to either put the surveillance up, or talk to her about your feelings.
I dont know that either of these will be worthwile, and its really starting to bug me, whig me out, and put me back in fight or flight mode. If I talk to her and she is being duplicitous, she's just going to lie. If she's not hiding anything, I come off as paranoid and insecure. As for surveillance, I have been spot checking her and the worst she has done is drive by OM's old hangout, and she kinda sorta told me about it afterward... some of things she says from time to time make me think she knows I can track the car if i want, and I know she knows i can track her phone since she voluntarily turned it back on. Would be a pretty simple matter for her to have a burner phone at her office on which she could talk to OM. She routinely stays late at work, for completely believable and verifiable reasons, but also could easily be meeting OM for periodic talks during some of that time. I simply have no means of finding out outside of hiring a PI or something-- my intel-gathering means are limited to phone tracking and phone records (both of which she knows about), car tracking (which she suspects, I think), and recording her conversations in the car (which I am pretty sure she has figured out or at least suspects based on what I had told her I know of her carryings on with OM as well as based on the fact that she doesn't seem to talk very much, if at all, on the phone in the car anymore unless it is to me. This is at least what the phone records say and the two spot checks I have done on her in recent weeks turned up no other calls, (Though I did find out that some calls coming into her phone in the car, as well as into her phone at her office, do not register on the call log-- possibly due to wi fi and or bluetooth issues.) Im really at a loss here and, for the most part, think I am stuck trusting her unless and until she seriously slips up or else drops the bomb on me again.
She HAS had a pullback the last couple of weeks. Fewer phone calls to me from work... she had been calling pretty much every day and sometimes several times... pulling away some when I reach out to her physically. But all of this could still be just the time needed to get over the A and rekindle feelings with me... I pretty much have no way of knowing and I am trapped in this paradigm of "we're working on it with the counselor", but that has tailed off a bit. Frustrating.
For the jewelry, there has to be a transaction record. If she said she bought it herself, was it through debit, credit, cash? Do you have access to those records? If she says that, can she produce the transaction record? I know this sounds like serious interrogation, but it is about transparency. Can she be transparent with you? If she's lying, you'll know that pretty fast if she can't tell you how she bought them or can't produce a record. Even if she paid by cash, there would be a withdrawal record on the account. The money didn't just come out of nowhere.
In terms of phone and car surveillance, if she's onto it and she wants to deceive you, I am sure there are tons of ways to do that. If one is going to be deceptive, google will find all the answers for them.
I am not trying to get your paranoid, but don't substitute surveillance and spot checking as the only transparency measures. It should mean that you are within your right to ask these questions. And as Sandi pointed out, with so many signs, it starts to add up and it doesn't just become a coincidence.
Maybe nothing has happened, but if you're in recon, I believe that you are in your right to ask questions and share your feelings, doubts, and whatever else.
I hope it's a big pile of nothing for your sake. Sounds like you've made good progress, but things have cooled off lately.
Even if she paid by cash, there would be a withdrawal record on the account. The money didn't just come out of nowhere.
You're going to laugh, but they're actually doesn't have to be a record. She pays for a lot of things in cash, and doesn't always put her money in the bank. Comes from a blue collar family with a lot of mistrust of the system in Banks and such, Etc. LOL. Sometimes she'll have as much as a couple thousand dollars in cash just laying around that she hasn't deposited or else has cashed out of and carries around. Always has, even though I've tried to break her of that habit. Amongst other things she feels that makes her less likely to run up credit card debt. Also, of course, makes her harder to track, LOL.
Your point, and everyone else's, however, are still very well taken. I shouldn't feel bad about making that inquiry. It's just that given the facts and circumstances, and the current dynamic, I am wondering how productive such an inquiry would be and what it would achieve.
Haha! The old 'money under the mattress trick' huh... I totally didn't consider that lol.
Well, maybe you take all of this info and analysis and just tuck it into your back pocket for now. Just continue to observe and see what she keeps doing. If she has deceived you and you don't bring any of this up, she probably will believe she's gotten away with it. And human nature is such that we will try and do that again because she will feel like you've stopped looking.
I dunno. I may be full of crap here.
I have a cautionary tale. I decided to buy a cloak of invisibility, similar to the one that Harry Potter had, so I could snoop on my wife. I found a vendor that was selling them on the darknet and it was expensive. I bought a cloak and it arrived five days later. Apparently I dropped it when I was opening the box. It was invisible so I couldn't find it. I emailed the vendor, but they wouldn't refund my money unless I returned the product. I was totally bummed.
Jim,
Man I really am rooting for you but you have a come back and an excuse for everything. I sometimes get a headache reading your posts.
I can't imagine how exhausting your life is with cheater phones, tracking devices friends who are cheaters etc......
I think it is times to have a simple conversation in the likes of "baby you are either all in or you are out".
Good luck to you man!
More smoke?
So, today is her early day from work, meeting she usually gets off early if things aren't too crazy. So, she calls me up to tell me she is going to the mall to do some shopping, to hopefully find an outfit she can wear to her office Christmas party this weekend, and to maybe buy something for my stepmother for Christmas. She says, oh, I think I'll stop by store X, because you were pretty lucky finding something for yourself to wear there. Now, there are three or four store exes around our town, and the one I went to is near my work. But she says to me, oh well I can go out to the mall, and then since it's on the way, I can stop at the store X Out near there. Thing is, the store X out there is in the exact same strip mall as the pub where om hangs out. not in the mood to play any games, I say are you sure you want to stop out there? That's right next to the pub, and you know he hangs out there a lot particularly on Fridays. Is that the position you want to put yourself in? So she says, hang out where, it's tore ex? And she kind of laughs like a joke. So I say kind of joking it myself that store X if you added booze might actually be a pretty good place to hang out at, but that I actually met the pub, and she says oh.
So, I track her phone, and she doesn't go there. But wondering if this is yet another smoke signal that I should be heeding.
An update: check the whereabouts a couple of more times, and she actually did go to store X. To all appearances she went in the store X and came out store X. And then drove right by the front of the pub where om hangs out. She couldn't have gone in giving the time frames involved. Still. Damn it. Be a lot easier if you were just seeing him. But this could be just typical Affair recovery. plus, don't know that I can tell her I'm tracking her today even though she knows I have that capability on her phone. Damn damn damn.
I mean, it's almost like she's daring me to say, I tracked you and know that you went and drove by the OM hang out. I mean, she knows that I can track her phone, and she has to know from our conversation that I pretty much didn't want her going out there, and of course i reinforced that I'm well aware that that's where the OM hangout is. I mean, the last thing she said to me was "oh I'm not going in there" (meaning OM'S hangout), but, cmon. And she had already been to mall and bought something (she just called but said nothing about store x).
I think she and I just need to have a talk tonight. Not confronting her about all of this specifically, but talking about where we are. We haven't really had a relationship talk in a few weeks now. Since just after our last counseling session. So it's probably been 3 weeks. Way overdue, and obviously I do have some concerns.
Doddler,
I love it. I wonder if someone is will trip over the coat.
H,
I was wondering have you two read the book "after the affair"? I am listening to it and it is actually pretty interesting. It gives points of view for both parties, the one who committed the affair and the one hurt by it. It lets you know what to expect and how to deal with the feelings in a constructive way.
[quote]So, she calls me up to tell me she is going to the mall to do some shopping, to hopefully find an outfit she can wear to her office Christmas party this weekend, and to maybe buy something for my stepmother for Christmas. She says, oh, I think I'll stop by store X, because you were pretty lucky finding something for yourself to wear there. Now, there are three or four store exes around our town, and the one I went to is near my work. But she says to me, oh well I can go out to the mall, and then since it's on the way, I can stop at the store X Out near there. Thing is, the store X out there is in the exact same strip mall as the pub where om hangs out. not in the mood to play any games, I say are you sure you want to stop out there? That's right next to the pub, and you know he hangs out there a lot particularly on Fridays. Is that the position you want to put yourself in? So she says, hang out where, it's tore ex? And she kind of laughs like a joke[/quote]
I don't like it. She is giving too much excuse for why she's going out that way.......and that looks suspiciously like a smoke screen. She knows you can track her, so she's trying to sound so legit and innocent by choosing to drive out of the way to end up next door to OM's hangout. But she gives herself away by laughing at what you said.....as if the thought never entered her mind that it is next door to where they use to meet.....and that is where she slipped up.
Even if she was ever-so-over OM (which she's not), she should have considered your feelings; considered how it could look suspicious; be smart enough to know the temptations and the havoc it has with her emotions; and realize it's not worth being set back at ground zero again. She is suppose to striving to avoid getting anywhere in the vicinity of OM. It is much too soon to take those type of risks.
I have tried to give her the benefit of doubt, but I am concerned that she is being pulled back into that seduction again. It seems that ever since her weekend stay with BFF, she has been "off". She has been distant and moody......which goes along with the withdrawals. However, when some women are feeling these low emotions and think there is too much work in trying to revive their MR........they will tempt fate by seeing the OM once again. If her old feelings for him are stirred again, then she stupidly thinks it is meant to be......and it must be true love. That's why this time in her withdrawal period is critical.
If you feel that no action would be effective, then that's your decision to make. This is your life, Jim. You are the one to live with the outcome. Frankly, unless you followed her and spied on her to see if she met up with the OM, it would still be a lot of guess work.
After the holidays (if not before the new year), I think you need to take charge in setting up more MC and doing the homework, instead of waiting on her. If she balks, then I think it will be a bad sign.
In the meantime, I suggest you do something fun with her this weekend. See how it goes.
I have tried to give her the benefit of doubt, but I am concerned that she is being pulled back into that seduction again. It seems that ever since her weekend stay with BFF, she has been "off".
I did a little detective work due to the mounting "signs" of trouble. Checked her texts when she left her phone around, as she often does these days. Bff has definitely been preaching the "You need to pick You", "You and
never had those smiles and laughter through the years, and we deserved to" sermon to my W, at least in recent texts leading up to their dinner on Thursday. She's also playing on the lever of my wife's "blueness" around holidays. (W responded to her at one point saying-- "I don[t know if there is any holiday i can recall since i was a kid that is worth remembering"--Ouch.)
I don't like it. She is giving too much excuse for why she's going out that way.......and that looks suspiciously like a smoke screen
At least she brought it up to me, albeit casually, before I had a chance to bring it up (I was not going to accuse her of going there, but just tell her i was troubled by her plan to go out there when we talked and her nonchalance about it). She said, "oh, there's another "store X"... i stopped by there for a few minutes today on the way back but didn't find anything. I did not respond or comment. I'm going to talk to her tonight... about a few things, including that.
In the meantime, I suggest you do something fun with her this weekend. See how it goes.
I may have really screwed this part up. Went out last night and had a REALLY good time... until we both had a bit too much to drink. Had a talk under less than ideal circumstances. At one point she said "well what would you normally be doing with a girl under these circumstances". I tried to kiss her, it was not returned. There's more and will fill you in later, but... not a great ending to the eveining.
Okay, so more color on last night (please read previous post, too, if cadet has not yet consolidated).
We went out, planning to meet another couple (who, actually, are also in a stressed relationship, though no infidelity AFAIK). I had found a karaoke night (something we both enjoy-- her watching, me sometimes singing) at a pub we both like, and this other couple (W is pretty good friends with the woman, who is a good singer and also enjoys karaoke) were supposed to meet us out. Karaoke ended up bieng a bust but we had a lot of fun talking and joking with our waitress and the table next to us (and with each other), but eventually we contacted the other couple to meet us at a different local establishment where there was a good C&W band playing. The other woman's husband didn't feel well and opted not to show, but W and I and friend had a really good time talking and chatting, and I think W was pretty impressed with how well I interacted with her friend and kept them both laughing and entertained (and I think I won her friend-- who I know had been skeptical about me after the long years of my neglecting my W-- over to "my corner" a bit.)
Then, her friend left, and things went to heck a bit. W and I decided to have "one more drink", which was prolly one too many for me, and possibly for her, as she seemed to get tipsy earlier than normal last night. At any rate, my tongue was loosed a little too much, and I go a little too cocky and self-assured. Ended up talking about one of my old flames-- came up in connection with another story i was telling wife in response to a question she asked about "who i trusted", and I know (and should have remembered) that that (old GFs) is a sensitive subject for my W who always holds herself up to disfavorable comparison when other girls are the subject. And of course I had to mention how good looking this girl was. Stupid. Then we get talking to one of the bartenders there, who works at another bar-- a C/W bar W and I have discussed going to-- and he invites us to come out there some night, and I let slip that I had already been (which i had months ago when W was off on one of her weekenders with bff) even though i had told W i hadn't... and she immediately wanted to know (sounding innocent when asking) "I thought you'd never been? Did you go with _______________? [name of the cute bartender at my regular watering hole who my W thinks has an interest in me and who I probably mentioned one too many times last night--she has become a bit of a friend and confidante, but there is nothing between us although she is young and very cute and W definitely thinks she's in to me-- which I kinda doubt but... whatever.] I said "no, of course not. I just stuck my head in there on one of the weekends you were away" Which was true, but i think i had told her previously id never been there. So that looked bad... Especially since i had also told her in the past that cute bartender was familiar with the place and went there from time to time.
Finally, back home, and things were a little foggy... we sat in bed and talked. I had wanted to "talk" earlier, about a few things, but she had deflected. Not 100% sure what all was ultimately said last night, but at some point it involved me saying something like (and remember this is pretty foggy) "You know who some of the women i've been involved with are (a lingerie model, a college cheerleader) and I know you've told me in the past you feel bad about yourself but... you need to know that you have enthralled me like no other woman before, your physical beauty, your inner beauty, all of it... you're everything i would ever want in a woman" (Or something like that). Bleah. Bad, sappy, I'm-too-drunk thing to say. Not sure I can remember how well it went over or not. I also recall telling her, as I have in the past, that sometimes I feel like the "rules with her right now are different than they would be right now with pretty much any other woman on the planet." Which is when she gave me the "well what would you be doing right now if the rules weren't different" or "Why don't you just do what you would normally do" or something to that effect (dont recall exactly) Which is when I tried to kiss her, or did kiss her, actually, I say "try" because it was not returned. And what came immediately thereafter is blank and I can't remember what either of us said.
This morning I tried to apologize for being too drunk and she said "you were fine." She sounded sincere... of course she also sounded sincere the night back in May when she said much the same after i had gotten over the top drunk, yelled at her bff, and passed out and gotten sick at the house after which she ubered out to rendezvous with Om and bff. She didn't do that last night--,meaning go meet bff/om, but i am not sure she would tell me she were ticked at me even if she were.
She was VERY tired tonight--we were up past 3 and her whole office had to go into work this morning at 8 oclock for a couple of hours, and she's also coming down with a cold. So, I didn't get the chance to talk with her.
I really want to know how SHE's feeling right now-- we havent had a MR talk in like 3-4 weeks-- and to apologize for putting pressure on her last night and for becoming too me-focused and talking about my former GF's which i know has hurt her in the past. But I also want to talk to her about affair recovery and about her going so close to OM's hangout on Friday. I really thought the way you put it was marvellous:
Even if she was ever-so-over OM (which she's not), she should have considered your feelings; considered how it could look suspicious; be smart enough to know the temptations and the havoc it has with her emotions; and realize it's not worth being set back at ground zero again. She is suppose to striving to avoid getting anywhere in the vicinity of OM. It is much too soon to take those type of risks.
I REALLY wish she would go get some IC as MC suggested. She definitely could use the third party insight on affair addictiveness and recovery(MC has already told us it can take a year or so) as well as about her own inner unhappiness. She was really energized about some of the self-exploration stuff immediately following our last session four weeks ago, but she rapidly tailed off.
I am trying so hard to be "Christian" about the way i live life and feel about people, but sometimes i really wish bff would just go crawl in a hole and disappear. The way W smooches up to her is almost like a lover or something: "Am i going to be able to get my bff time before you go away for three weeks?" And she is such such SUCH a bad influence on my W. Idunno, maybe my W will "give in to the dark side" with bff and end up being like AnotherStander's, changing to the point I don't recognize her. I hope not because i still see the sweetness and goodness in her that i fell in love with but... people change. And I know sometimes especially it can happen with women when they are going through menopause as my W currently is.
Retraction ftom two posts above. There were NOT missing/deleted texts between W and bff. I misread the online log. All texts accounted for
Why don't you just do what you would normally do
That was a clear invitation from her. Don't apologize for kissing her.
Rebellion. Fantasy. These are two of the big hurdles i am facing here.
We talked today. Her visit to Store X (next door to OM's hangout bar where she had meetups with him on a handful of occasions, at least, that I know of), AFTER i asked her "Is that somewhere you really want to be, and to be putting yourself in that situation, especially since you know he often hangs out there on Friday afternoons" was, on some level, apparently, an act of rebellion. That's not what she would consider it, perhaps, but it sure was the way she explained it (and remember that i am very bad about remembering exact words): "I want to be able to go where I want to go, without worrying about this or that. I wasn't even thinking about that being his hangout when i first thought of going there, i just wanted to look at clothes. After you brought that up then i definitely wanted to go there just to prove that i could do it..." (I later thought i should have reminded her about the last, at least that i know of, FTF meet she ever had with OM where she said she left the house not even intending to see him and she's not even really sure how or why she did it-- which MC seemed to grant can happen in these addicitive type affairs-- but i didn't at the time.
She also said she didn't think i was out of line or obnoxious on Friday, though i still think i overdid it a little bit, AND... Regarding the kiss:
That was a clear invitation from her. Don't apologize for kissing her.
It was actually NOT a clear invitation from her... at least not probably in the sense you were thinking. She was not wanting to be kissed, but, rather, was wanting to see if
I would kiss
her. Basically seeing if i really wanted to kiss her. She was also, apparently, hoping to find out if she would "feel that spark" or "like she wanted more", but she didn't get it. She still wants that fantasy feeling to drop out of thin air... like it does in all of the Hallmark channel christmas movies that she has been glued to for the past few days and is at every recent christmas i can remember (probably why holidays are so disappointing to her... I mean what can match up to THAT.) She also had been a rabid, and I mean RABID consumer of romance novels leading up to the A with OM, so she has a good, solid, understanding of the fantasy life she thinks she can have.
She says she still thinks most everything is better between us than ever-- we talk and laugh more than we ever have, we have fun when we go out, and our parenting is on the same page. But... no "spark". She says she still gets that regret which she's always had (and which she has in fact told mme about in the past even as far back as when we were dating) that she feels like she wanted to be a free spirit and just get on a bus and head west or to joion the peace corps or something but she never did, mostly because of what otherr people expected of her (which is a little of what was driving her Friday, apparently when she went to store x), and that she still regrets that. And now if she goes off on her own she will be being selfish and hurt everybody else. Also that she wants to go off and try all these new things, skydiving, etc., but "doesn't see herself doing them with me or really with anyone exxcept maybe her girlfriends" and that she's sorry but that "she knows that hurts me to hear". None of that is, of course, really news at this point, and it is supposedly what we are supposed to be working on to "get back"... but it seems more and more as if i am competing with both the lingering rebellion as well as an unfulfillable fantasy.
Finally, i am coming to the conclusion that I am NOT nor have i ever been competing with OM for my wife. To the extet I am competing at all, I am competing with W's bff. It was bff who first got her going out on these "single girls nights" (rather than trying to help repair our broken marriage), who encouraged her in her A with OM, and who continues to encourage her to "just choose 'you'" and "you HAVE to be selfish sometimes" and "Oh look at me how happy i am with my AP" (and it is a very seductive call, as bff leads a life fully half filled with leisure as she and her STBXH sold their first business for a boatload and now she just consults part time, and spends the rest of her time jetting to florida, or new orleans, or new york, soon Europe apparently, rendezvousing with her AP and "having lots of sex."
And, finally, another thing... and kind of disturbing/sad. The un-returned kiss was a revelation to me. I find that there are few things as unattractive as a woman who doesn't respond to you. I was not so much "hurt" by the lack of response as I was left feeling very empty. It DID sound like an invitation to kiss her and initiate something... but the reasons for the invitation were selfish on her part, imo, almost like a temp check though not exactly.
Idunno. If she is committed to this she needs to be committed. Someone told me once that if you go into something expecting it to suck or expecting to be unhappy, chances are it is going to suck or you are going to be unhappy. If you commit to BEING happy and commit to making something work and come out GOOD, you vastly increase your chances of that happening. Right now, it seems, she expects no spark between us, and she expects her holiday to suck, so both those things are likely to come true.
Oh, and she actually copped to the flowers at her office that she took the picture of as her FB front page being from OM, saying "well you knew he sent me flowers" (which i actually did not, she never having told me that i can recall) but denied that he gave her any other gifts... which i have a very very hard time believing. I'd have found it much more believable had she said "yes he did but i pitched them."
And or those of you new to this rodeo, the flowers and gifts and such with Om were not recent... they were from this past spring.
AFAIK she is still "Non contacting" the Om... but i am starting to wonder if she is thinking of this as "doing time" for a year, after which she will be able to say "I tried" and then end the MR.
Now who's thinking negative. I know the man upstairs has my back, but I can't say for sure where that path leads.
And one final note... really scatterbrained today. Lest you think it's ALL negative, we did have a fairly nice, light, fUn day, post-talk Christmas shopping for the kids, and stopping for coffee once and lunch and a drink later. She also said, during our talk, thst she agreed that things always seemed to be somewhat better right after a MC session, and she agreed to go back this week and next. Just wish she would do the IC, too. Too busy watching hallmark (where she actually is right now...)
She says she still thinks most everything is better between us than ever-- we talk and laugh more than we ever have, we have fun when we go out, and our parenting is on the same page. But... no "spark". She says she still gets that regret which she's always had (and which she has in fact told mme about in the past even as far back as when we were dating) that she feels like she wanted to be a free spirit and just get on a bus and head west or to joion the peace corps or something but she never did, mostly because of what otherr people expected of her (which is a little of what was driving her Friday, apparently when she went to store x), and that she still regrets that. And now if she goes off on her own she will be being selfish and hurt everybody else. Also that she wants to go off and try all these new things, skydiving, etc., but "doesn't see herself doing them with me or really with anyone exxcept maybe her girlfriends" and that she's sorry but that "she knows that hurts me to hear". None of that is, of course, really news at this point, and it is supposedly what we are supposed to be working on to "get back"... but it seems more and more as if i am competing with both the lingering rebellion as well as an unfulfillable fantasy.
I could've possibly been a professional pool player that won international competitions, traveled the world competing, and spent my time walking beaches across the globe to relax between matches and working on my game with other champions. Instead I get up early to drop my kids off at school and go to work. When I play competitions I inevitably get eliminated by players that went down the road I didn't and play full time. But instead I have three wonderful children, a rewarding career, and still find my way to some thrilling victories on occasion.
In life you make choices. You get ice cream for desert or you get cookies. You get to order the steak or the shrimp. 'Wanting it all' in life is like going to an infinitely large buffet and wanting to try 'a little of everything'.
I'm not sure if human nature has always to perpetually covet what we don't have, but I feel that the internet age and advent of social media has poured gas on the fire. Keeping up with the Jones's is harder and harder because now we can see the entire buffet, and we know how much we are 'missing out' on. It's easy to get panicked.
Just like if there were $100 bills all over the streets there would be a mob trying to pick them all up, one can find themselves terrified that there is all of this happiness out there and everyone else is getting it, but (gasp) it's slipping through our fingers because all we have is what we have.
This grosses me out. It is all viewed through a lens that the most important thing in the world is our personal gratification. The things we covet don't bring happiness, they bring pleasure. Pleasure is obtaining something external that makes us feel good temporarily. Happiness comes from appreciating what we have, the most powerful of which are internal and involve sacrifice. When we think we're not happy enough we become less appreciative, and the only way we know to change how we feel is to chase more pleasure.
But pleasure involves a sacrifice too, and it involves us sacrificing the things that would actually bring us happiness. And so the downward spiral begins, empty lives filling up on garbage.
I'm almost to my point.
My friend, who also sacrificed his pool career to start a family, is still married. When he lost out of a competition he'd get very frustrated because he felt that his family was the reason he lost. Which in a way is true. But he would become very resentful of his wife and his family because of this. I guess he didn't feel he was getting as much pleasure from being a husband or a dad as he would if he were a champion pool player, and he felt like his wife should understand the sacrifice he made and somehow show the appreciation by making the family man role more rewarding for him. This is a normal need of course, feeling appreciated, and his wife should certainly understand this and do her best to show her appreciation as much as possible. The problem was his expectations and how it turned into resentment.
It reached a point to where his wife basically said 'look, you can stay or you can go, but you can't stay and then perpetually gripe about being here'. This was a wake up call to him, and he realized that he needed to focus on appreciating what he had, and not being angry about what he didn't. He has since quit playing pool because it was a trigger for him and his life has been easier since he did. He's still new in this struggle. It's a battle. But I've talked to him about this for endless hours and he agrees it's a matter of appreciation not acquisition.
OK, so now to your wife. She seems very similar to my friend. She resents reality because it doesn't measure up to what she wants, a little of everything. Her friends and every pillow embroidered saying in the world all assures her that she is a special princess that deserves a bit of everything. And she isn't 'happy' so clearly that proves they are all right.
Personally I don't think she'll ever be happy unless she picks one meal and enjoys it rather than staring at everyone else on the buffet. But I don't control her, and neither do you. She's on her journey, and you can't speed it up or lead her one way or another.
What you get to do is establish boundaries. What is a deal breaker for you? I get it, if she's with OM that's clear. But what if the marriage remains sexless? I get being patient during a difficult marital crisis, but at what point does it become a whiny child throwing a tantrum and punishing you by withholding affection because she is resentful your existence is preventing her from that fling with the waiter in Paris? I'm not suggesting you tell her to put out or get out.
But it might help to have a game plan for yourself as to what you're willing to take. And at some point you may need to express that to her. Not as an ultimatum, but more as a boundary. The same way the "I am not going to remain in a open marriage" is bandied about, there may be a time when you say "I'm not going to be in a relationship where affection is being withheld". IF that is a deal breaker. And if that time comes you'd better be ready to detach and move forward on your own, because you can't control her and there is a good chance you'll have to go your own way.
Now- here's the hard part. If it's NOT a deal breaker then you don't get to make that statement. In fact, you're essentially making the statement that "I am committed to you regardless of whether you withhold sex and affection because you resent me for your lack of fulfillment".
AND, if that is your stance, then YOU have to let go of YOUR expectations, and instead of YOU focusing on what YOU don't have (a sexually fulfilling relationship with an appreciative loving spouse) YOU have to focus on what you DO have. And find fulfillment in what you've been given in your life.
If you can't find fulfillment in what you already have in your life, how do you expect her to find fulfillment in hers? Lead by example, and hope maybe someday she can follow.
Am I saying that no sex should be a deal breaker? Not necessarily. Personally I don't believe in deal breakers in a marriage but if someone wanted to make a case for it I think no sex would their best chance to make me wish I did. Of course it's too early for that right now.
What I'm really saying is 1) Be patient, today won't be what your relationship looks like in 3 months or 12 months, 2) Find joy in limbo, if you can't be appreciative of your life right as is you're just as far off track as she is and you need to be a leader, and 3) figure out what your boundaries are so you can protect yourself if she crosses them and you can stop mentally whining and let go of the expectations if she doesn't.
Easier said than done. I was in a sexless marriage for the last 3 years and while I was resolved to go to the grave a very frustrated but still married man, I was definitely resentful and allowed that to impact how I conducted myself as a husband. I wrote a thread about this (the card came), if this wasn't already an epic novel post I'd quote it for you, let me know if you haven't seen it. Point is I get that it is tough. It's so hard I don't know if I could do it even with the things I've learned in the last three years. Put me back in that M and I still might not be able to handle it. But I think that's the fight you have to fight.
It all stems from no expectations and appreciation. You wrote a lot about what you did wrong and what didn't go well and what's missing and her bad influences and what's not perfect and your doubts and fears and both of your challenges. You kind of glossed over the overall pleasant experiences you guys are having and what's going right. If you're 95% focused on what you don't have you're doing it wrong. And just like you get frustrated that she's so focused on the french waiter, she's probably frustrated that she's recommitted to the M, quit seeing OM, and is doing the best she feels she can and you are still hung up on that it's not perfect. Do your best HJ. It's hard. Keep posting.
H,
I was wondering have you two read the book "after the affair"? I am listening to it and it is actually pretty interesting. It gives points of view for both parties, the one who committed the affair and the one hurt by it. It lets you know what to expect and how to deal with the feelings in a constructive way.
H,
Not sure if you saw this, but it actually answers a lot of questions you're asking it actually has a chapter on getting physical again and pretty much states from both parties that it's going to be awkward and that is normal.
Jim, I sure do read a lot of mind-reading in your posts. This is one of the problems with snooping, it leads to a crap-ton of mind-reading to fill in the blanks. I personally would suggest you drop the snooping. You think she's having an affair and trying to find out? Well then just assume the worst and act accordingly. Let HER prove to you that she's not. Until then, live your life like she's still an active cheater.
And, finally, another thing... and kind of disturbing/sad. The un-returned kiss was a revelation to me. I find that there are few things as unattractive as a woman who doesn't respond to you. I was not so much "hurt" by the lack of response as I was left feeling very empty. It DID sound like an invitation to kiss her and initiate something... but the reasons for the invitation were selfish on her part, imo, almost like a temp check though not exactly.
The "revelation" to you should be this- she doesn't find you attractive right now. So what can you do about that? Get out. Get a life. Quit snooping (that is SO not attractive). Give her time and space. Detach. I think maybe you're trying too hard and she's pulling away (the ol' you pursue/she distances dynamic at work). Read TXHubby's thread again, try and model more of your activities after his. He made himself so damned attractive that his W begged him to take her back.
I'm always a little perplexed at sexless relationships. For me I've always made it clear to my romantic interests that sex is not optional with me. You want me then you will be having sex with me. You start playing games with sex then our relationship will come to an abrupt end. If you two are not having sex then I wouldn't even consider that piecing, or any kind of couples relationship really. I would go back to DB'ing and treat her like a cheating WAS. If she wants to reconcile then fine, she can show it in the bedroom. Until then she shouldn't bother you because you are too busy out there being awesome. You're not going to "nice" her back, so quit trying. Be mysterious, a little bad and naughty. Make her wonder what you're up to. Make her pursue you instead of vice versa.
Zeus, thanks. This is quite honestly one of the very best and most helpful and well-illustrated posts I have seen on one of my threads. The whole "quest for happiness" thing is, to all appearances, a HUGE deal for my W and I, for my part, certainly helped push her down that road by my role in making her very UN-happy for so many years. For whatever reason, however, that's where she is now and, as you said, until she decides to start being thankful, appreciative, and even happy for what she
has, she is likely to continue to be a very unhappy person. Worth noting that her church attendance, where you will also hear that message preached from time to time, has gotten considerably more spotty of late, and she is visibly tense and ill at ease and short with everyone when she does go. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to write all of that.
I have not seen your "card game" thread but would love to read it and would be very thankful if you could provide a link or cut and paste the quote you wanted to add.
What you get to do is establish boundaries. What is a deal breaker for you? I get it, if she's with OM that's clear. But what if the marriage remains sexless? I get being patient during a difficult marital crisis, but at what point does it become a whiny child throwing a tantrum and punishing you by withholding affection because she is resentful your existence is preventing her from that fling with the waiter in Paris? I'm not suggesting you tell her to put out or get out.
This is a tricky angle and there are subtexts here that bear discussing. I am at a place now where I don't think I can in good conscience live in a sex-free marriage. I
need that now... but that was not always the case. I was chronically poisoned due to a genetic condition and spent several years in declining health, one of the effects of which was suppression of the endocrine system and of, amongst other things, testosterone. I literally had nearly no to sex drive. In addition, even had the sex drive been there, pretty much every joint in my body felt like it had a red hot fork or icepick sticking in it 24/7. And that was even when I wasn't, as I did fairly regularly, contracting pneumonia or some other infectious illness. Sex was pretty far from the first thing on my mind in those days. The dynamic between W and I worsened to the point that, even when I finally began a return to health (a long and fairly miraculous story for another time), our relationship had become so damaged that we were kind of turned off by each other-- she was snarky and naggy (or at least so I thought) and verbally abusive to me and the kids at times, and I was cold and aloof and challenged or put down most every idea we had. By the time of BD last January, we really weren't even friends... let alone anything more intimate. We were definitely in what MWD would call a "sex starved marriage." We have not been intimate in probably 4 years or so at this point.
So, that's the status quo. It's not as simple as saying "she needs to be fulfilling my sexual needs or a I walk." We both bear a LOT of responsibility for getting to this point, and romantic and physical intimacy of any type is pretty far in the rearview mirror for us. She has even a more jaded view than I do (in terms of how often and how recently we have been intimate) and has still not (yet) relented in that view even as I know the truth to be otherwise. So, while NOW with a healthy glandular system pretty much restored I definitely WANT that relationship with my wife...It's not a simple matter to restore it. We both bear responsibility for where we are, but I definitely abandoned the masculine role of sexual pursuer and let that part of the relationship languish. And it has been a loooooong time.
What I'm really saying is 1) Be patient, today won't be what your relationship looks like in 3 months or 12 months, 2) Find joy in limbo, if you can't be appreciative of your life right as is you're just as far off track as she is and you need to be a leader, and 3) figure out what your boundaries are so you can protect yourself if she crosses them and you can stop mentally whining and let go of the expectations if she doesn't.
This is good advice, and I am giving it time. But it is hard. To kiss her like that, thinking it was invitation when in fact it was a test... hurts. Now, our MC has told us we are going to have to be deliberate, and kind of test the waters like that but... the way my W did it definitely left a bad taste in my mouth.
We've been having a lot of fun and nice times, its true, but the lack of any intimacy (and not just sex) is very hard to endure. And I am not sure that she gets to a point where she'll even have a chance of "feeling" that unless she gives up the fantasies and commits fully to making our MR a great one.
I honestly probably really effed up by not separating and/or giving her the boot or completely shutting her out until she absolutely came crawling back, completely humbled, like TxHubby did with his W. Mine did have what was a come to Jesus moment when she thought I was walking, but I think I let her back in to soon, committed to the MC with poor foundation, etc. and am now painted into a corner where I have to hope we can employ the "just do it" philosophy and regain that intimacy-- which is unlikely to happen with her current attitude. Can't exactly go dark and shut her off now without being a huge backtracking D-bag... because AFAIK and can prove she is not seeing OM and she IS going to MC. Even if I distance myself now from her, in house, she is going to wonder what's wrong, and I really have no basis other than "I'm not getting any"... but the course of action I committed to expressly included the possibility of "not getting any" for a while.
You think she's having an affair and trying to find out? Well then just assume the worst and act accordingly. Let HER prove to you that she's not. Until then, live your life like she's still an active cheater.
Stander, you always have some good insights and this is no different. However, I think your insights here
may have been more timely 4 or so months ago.
You see, right now, I do not think she is having an affair. I think she is having difficulty getting over the affair she had previously, and that her bff is further complicating that recovery. I am not snooping on her, but have "spot checked" her a couple of times based largely on Sandi2s suggestions. Call it "intel gathering" or "research" as I think that that is more apt. My MC/IC didn't even have an issue with it, nor did my DB coach.
The conundrum I am in, and why your advice her might not be as timely as it could have been is this: As I posted a couple of threads back, I think, I have chosen my path, here. That path involves marriage counseling and an effort to rekindle an intimate relationship in my marriage that does not currently exist. I know opinions vary on the "possibility" of achieving this, but is certainly something that MWD has described in her books as being possible. Problem is, I may have jumped too soon. I had her on the ropes so to speak. Desperate because she saw the whole façade crumbling, me walking away and her "losing" the kids, or at least their respect. I could have walked off then and probably should have, and maybe then by this point she would have "fallen" for me again and we would be more actively and effectively piecing. That is not what happened, however. I took her back, she committed to ending things with OM (which she has apparently upheld), and we committed to working with the MC. She is still doing those things. Not sure I could jettison her now without looking like a two-faced jerk, undoing the good progress that we have made so far (we weren't even friends 6 or 7 months ago) and permanently poisoning the waters.
As to the sex-free marriage, well... I put us in that boat way more than she did (see above response to Zeus) and it has been a LONG time. The romance was long gone from our MR by the time OM came along, and W and I have not been intimate in fully four years or so. Maybe 5. It's been a loooong time. Insisting on sex "Right damned now" just doesn't make sense in the current state of affairs. Moving deliberately towards that is what, apparently, I am committed to now. Problem is I don't see that being successful as long as W is in fantasy land, and I have moved OUT of the realm of distancing/going-dark/after-the-last-resort-technique. Perhaps I should not have so moved but... the fact of the matter is that I did. Going back to that right now not really an option.
Do I have boundaries? Yes, one of which is that she can't see OM. Were that to happen, then, yes, of course I would drop the rope cut the cord and "go dark". Problem is, I would also file. With no going back. I have told her as much and I meant it. if om ever comes back in the picture we are through
So not sure how what you suggest could fit into my current sitch, at least in it's totality. I will certainly take to heart your suggestions to make myself "awesome" and irresistible, but "living my life like she is an active cheater probably doesn't make a lot of sense right here given what has gone before.
Would still love to see Sandi2s take on the most recent.
HJ......I subscribe to a blog where I get weekly emails on male subjects. The one this week is on Is Your Wife Withholding Sex from You? Just thought I would share.
What options do you have in the prison of a sexless marriage?
Have you ever felt like your sex life has been stolen?
Do you believe that women are the gate keepers of your sexuality?
Are you concerned that your masculine sensuality will never be honestly expressed until you get the permission and approval from your partner?
Many men answer “yes” to those questions.
I used to believe the answers were “yes” too.
Now I know differently. And you can too.
The Sexual Prison is in Your Head
Many men feel imprisoned by society, their upbringing or even their marital vows.
Societal programming has brainwashed them into believing their masculine sensual and sexual nature is something they should be ashamed of.
They’ve been raised to be quietly embarrassed about their natural craving for intimate connection, sensual touch and sexual pleasure.
And they feel their marital vows have locked them into an inescapable, monogamous prison where they solemnly wait for the gatekeeper to give them the nod of permission.
But the truth is they are sitting in a cell with an unlocked door and no guard.
They can leave anytime they want…but they don’t.
The fear of walking out the door and simply being who they want to be is paralyzing.
It’s all in their head.
What if You Just Walked Out of the Prison Cell?
I had a client once who was determined to walk out of his unguarded cell of sexual shame.
He didn’t care what it took. He needed to shock himself into owning who he was and what he wanted.
I asked him, “What would be the most grandiose demonstration of your reclaimed freedom?”
He thought for a minute and said, “The most outrageous thing I can think of is if I told my mother that I love to eat p*ssy! That would prove I’m afraid of nothing anymore.”
“Really?” I said. “What’s the worst that could happen if you do that?”
And so it was decided.
He sat down one Saturday morning over coffee with his mom. He could smell bacon sizzling on the stove as he sat nervously at the 36-inch round Formica kitchen table he grew up with.
She said, “How have you been, dear?”
He said, “Great, mom! Hey, I’ve got to get something to get off my chest I’ve been too embarrassed to tell anyone. So I’m telling you.”
“What is it, honey?” she asked.
“Mom. I just love to eat p*ssy.”
Pause.
“That’s nice, dear. Do you want some breakfast?”
Yeah. It was that easy.
And his life started changing from that day on. True story.
What if You Just Lived a Life of Intimacy, Sensuality and Sexuality?
What if living an intimate, sensual and sexual life wasn’t a place to get to?
What if it was a place you must come from?
What if all you had to do every single day was the equivalent of telling your mom you love to eat p*ssy?
Living a life of intimacy, sensuality and sexuality requires you to come from those places. You must embrace the scary edge of what it means to show up in relationships as an intimate man.
You must be unashamed of expressing your sensual thoughts and feelings.
And you must unapologetically invite and initiate sensual play and sexual interactions.
The choice to do otherwise is like sitting in an unguarded, unlocked prison cell.
You can do anything you want and you can BE anyone you like. Nobody has a gun to your head.
Do they?
The Gun to Your Head
I know the feeling.
The fear of speaking our truth can feel like a virtual gun to the head.
We’re afraid of being rejected…again.
Being called a pervert.
Being mocked, scolded or belittled.
Being laughed at.
Being alone.
These fears are what keeps us sitting on the edge of our bunk inside the unguarded, unlocked cell.
We choose to play it safe and do nothing.
Actually, it’s not nothing.
We might whine, complain, argue, beg, debate, blame and negotiate for slivers of what we want.
We give absolute power to someone else to regulate our experience of intimacy, sensuality and sexuality.
And that’s a miserable life.
What Are My Options?
Your options are plenty…if you dare to exercise them.
The world is full of opportunities to play in the realm of intimacy, sensuality and sexuality.
I believe you must learn to play in all those realms with the world – without shame or apology.
You were not meant to place all of your eggs in one basket. It’s impossible for your partner to be the sole source of your intimate experiences.
She never signed up to be your prison guard or the keeper of your happiness and satisfaction.
She doesn’t want you to get those from her. She wants you to come to her with those already inside you.
Instead of pursuing intimate, sensual and sexual experiences you must learn to create them.
This means you must boldly create intimate, emotional and vulnerable conversations. Do this with your friends, your co-workers, your mother and your partner…whenever the mood strikes you. Push that scary edge. Treat intimacy just as you do the air you breathe. It’s not negotiable.
Playfully delve into the world of sensuality. Read, watch, listen and share with others what you’re thinking, what you like and what you desire. Learn to touch, hug, kiss, compliment and love others without fear or expectation. Practice receiving those with a gracious, open heart.
Shamelessly express your sexual nature. It’s normal and natural to be a sexual being. It’s food for your soul. Reset your mindset of scarcity, uncertainty and trepidation. Instead, offer, invite and initiate from a place of self-respect, self-love and outcome independence.
Intimacy, sensuality and sexuality are your gifts to offer the world…they are not a place you need to find or get to.
They are a place you must come from.
And to do that you must walk out of that prison cell under your own power – without asking for permission.
Will This Fix My Sexless Marriage?
Will pushing this scary edge fix your sexless marriage?
I don’t know. Maybe.
One thing I know for sure is that it will make you feel happier and more confident. Those two things should be your priority before trying to fix anything else. Becoming independent of any specific outcome is critical and you can’t do that if you’re not happy or confident.
Another thing I know for sure is doing more of the same won’t fix anything and it will only get worse.
Complaining won’t fix it.
Begging won’t fix it.
And negotiating won’t fix it.
Sometimes a sexless marriage is rejuvenated when you decide to walk out of your unguarded, unlocked prison cell and simply become an intimate, sensual and sexual person and partner.
You take responsibility for living a life of your choosing – taking back your power to experience one of the most amazing parts of being a human being.
You let go of controlling, threatening or manipulating your partner to make you happy. You just invite her to join you in the intimate, sensual and sexual life you are going to live – one way or another. (By the way, if the roles are reversed the same concepts apply)
No rules. No demands. No judgment.
Just a simple invitation.
Zeus--
I was kind of half-distracted an ran out of time, but I did pretty half-a$$ed job of fully saying how appreciative I am for your post. I ended up making yet another post where I pretty much gripe and moan about how difficult my own sitch is, but there is a lot more stuff in your post that is extremely helpful and offers me different takes on some things I have already considered, and some lifelines as well.
I will think hard over "what I can and cannot live with", as well as re-dedicating myself to being thankful and appreciative for what I do have, and how I can lead by example rather than trying to control, and find peace with various outcomes.
No woman has ever affected me the way this one has, and on the one hand my heart brakes for having let the relationship get so far down this road that it is on, but... I did. And it happened. I still have a whole, whole lot going for me, and a lot to offer. I'm a child of God, after all. And if he's on my side, what do I have to fear?
Thanks again, your post was a blessing... it has helped reinvigorate me.
"I want to be able to go where I want to go, without worrying about this or that. I wasn't even thinking about that being his hangout when i first thought of going there, i just wanted to look at clothes. After you brought that up then i definitely wanted to go there just to prove that i could do it..."
First all, if she had repented for her waywardness, she should not be acting out on rebellious feelings. Not if she genuinely repeated. But I have to tell you, Jim, that above quote from her is nothing but a cop out. A WW cop out! I mean, the audacity! I'm afraid I would have had to tell Miss High & Mighty that she is suppose to be earning your trust. You did explain how that works with transparency, etc. Right? It's not necessary to remind her of previous activities with OM, but apparently, her "commitment" to work to save her M has slipped her mind.
It was actually NOT a clear invitation from her... at least not probably in the sense you were thinking. She was not wanting to be kissed, but, rather, was wanting to see if I would kiss her.
Sorry, I was thinking like a woman. And, yes, I knew exactly what she had on her mind, and that was to see if (1) you would kiss her, and (2) if she felt sparks. Of course, she wouldn't feel anything b/c she still has OM in her head.....and she wants to act as if she's single. She can feel sparks for her H when she's wayward.
She also had been a rabid, and I mean RABID consumer of romance novels leading up to the A with OM, so she has a good, solid, understanding of the fantasy life she thinks she can have.
Yeah, I am very familiar with those actions (romantic movies, novels, etc.). If her head is still stuck in fantasy land, I'm afraid you won't be having much intimacy soon. Unfortunately, the holidays are over-romantized, and that doesn't help her fantasy.
She says she still thinks most everything is better between us than ever
Sure......as friends. And that would be okay (since you are working toward piecing) if she would follow up with the MC/IC. But she's trying to make it your fault that she doesn't feel a thrill.....without her putting any effort into it. I understand her! I really do! But her thinking is wrong.
And now if she goes off on her own she will be being selfish and hurt everybody else
WW script.
Also that she wants to go off and try all these new things, skydiving, etc., but "doesn't see herself doing them with me or really with anyone exxcept maybe her girlfriends" and that she's sorry but that "she knows that hurts me to hear".
She has said this stuff in the past. If you reversed it and said you couldn't see yourself with her.......it would hurt like heck! She would probably be pi$$ed about it. Sorry, but she sounds as if she's really backslid.
And, finally, another thing... and kind of disturbing/sad. The un-returned kiss was a revelation to me. I find that there are few things as unattractive as a woman who doesn't respond to you. I was not so much "hurt" by the lack of response as I was left feeling very empty. It DID sound like an invitation to kiss her and initiate something... but the reasons for the invitation were selfish on her part, imo, almost like a temp check though not exactly.
I have to agree. Very self-centered, indeed.
Idunno. If she is committed to this she needs to be committed. Someone told me once that if you go into something expecting it to suck or expecting to be unhappy, chances are it is going to suck or you are going to be unhappy. If you commit to BEING happy and commit to making something work and come out GOOD, you vastly increase your chances of that happening. Right now, it seems, she expects no spark between us, and she expects her holiday to suck, so both those things are likely to come true.
Exactly!
Oh, and she actually copped to the flowers at her office that she took the picture of as her FB front page being from OM, saying "well you knew he sent me flowers"
Well, isn't that sweet..........and she decided to preserve it on FB.
. That's very telling, Jim.
AFAIK she is still "Non contacting" the Om... but i am starting to wonder if she is thinking of this as "doing time" for a year, after which she will be able to say "I tried" and then end the MR.
No, I think she's making some type of contact. Burner phone, BFF as the go-between, something. She's not going to wait a year. She can already say she's tried.......even went to MC with you......but nothing worked. It's script.
I will be tickled pink if I'm wrong.......but I think she is trying to get through Christmas, and then she'll BD you.....or just replay her old actions (benefit from the M, but live as a single). Either way, she seems to be setting the tone.
"To kiss her like that, thinking it was invitation when in fact it was a test... hurts. Now, our MC has told us we are going to have to be deliberate, and kind of test the waters like that but... the way my W did it definitely left a bad taste in my mouth."
I really don't know if my advice is a good idea or not. Perhaps sandi can comment as I far more trust her advice on somethung like this than my own. However I think you should tell W this. Tell her how you feel about what she did. Tell her how she hurt you. I'd also make the comment that if she's not going to try, only test you that thus us not going to work. I would not wyne about it or cry or complain, just say it, say, I just thought you should know and move on or walk away. I'd put it on her and move off of it. I think she's being allowed to get away with too much Crap here. If Sandinista right and she's just trying to get through Christmas and if you are right in that she was trying harder when she thought you might leave, letting her know you are getting back to that point might be your only chance. Otherwise she very well may BD again in January.
I will be tickled pink if I'm wrong.......but I think she is trying to get through Christmas, and then she'll BD you.....or just replay her old actions (benefit from the M, but live as a single). Either way, she seems to be setting the tone.
Sandi, you make a very convincing case... I hope you are wrong.
At this point not sure what I can do. I had planned on bringing up the troubling shopping trip during Wednesday's session, and also questioning her commitment in general. She had taken down the flower photo off of FB shortly after she finally appeared to start coming to her senses and start working on us, but i never thought to ask her if she deleted the photo from FB and phone archives. I'd been going to mention that, too... hoping to start the convo with MC again about affair addictiveness and recovery. I still have suspicions about those two items of jewelry but right now that's all they are, and not even any concrete reasons to suspect she is contacting OM... and not sure how I would find out.
Sooo... other than tightening up on what i will "accept" from her crap-wise (and I think both the shopping and the kiss qualify, as would retention of the FB photo if she still has it) not sure what i can really do to force the action. I could, i suppose, insist that if we are to continue with this that she MUST follow the professional advice we are receiving (i.e. she has to go to IC), otherwise "I won't waste my time."
I could also always force the issue of her R with bff... Saying "look, W, I just don't know how this is going to work with you and bff being so close under the circs. She's the one who broke trust with me as a friend, so I am the aggrieved party here, but I've heard nothing from her, no olive branch or explanation or anything, and last I heard she was effectively lobbying against our marriage. I'm not willing to continue trying to work on our MR under those circumstances... unless i can be certain she is supporting us in our efforts, you need to stop hanging out with her." But that seems kind of thin and possibly even controlling on my part. But otherwise i don't see what i can do at this point but tighten up as described above, take the lead on the MC, and await developments.
What do you think about DonH's suggestion above about discussing the kiss (which i could also possibly bring up in the MC session wednesday). That doesn't sound like "apologizing for kissing her"... more like asking her "are YOU sorry I kissed you." I do get what he's saying... if she is really "trying" she shouldn't be "testing". She should be committed to exploring the intimate connection "in the moment" without judging it, yes? What do you think?
Tell her how you feel about what she did. Tell her how she hurt you. I'd also make the comment that if she's not going to try, only test you that thus us not going to work. I would not wyne about it or cry or complain, just say it, say, I just thought you should know and move on or walk away. I'd put it on her and move off of it.
DonH, this sounds like a good course of action to me. I have asked Sandi2 to weigh in, too, especially since we seem to be drifting back into WW waters.
Otherwise she very well may BD again in January.
Sandi and Don-- she's not going to BD. She's too afraid of losing/alienating the kids and/or looking bad. Unless she just goes full-on "i don't care who I hurt wayward" which, so far, she has not done. Every time she has stepped to that edge she has stepped back. If I hadn't uncovered what I uncovered last January, I might never have found out until she actually did drop the bomb. No, if she goes back to OM, it will be in the deepest secrecy she can manage... if i had to guess I would say on an overnight "girls weekend" where she could ditch car and phone and not be tracked. Either that or a meetup at a distant venue where I am unlikely to show up at so she can take her phone and still meet OM there. She's not going to openly BD, though... I'll have to find out on my own.
I agree with Don's suggestion.
This started getting immediately noticeable when she had her weekend with BFF. It was very difficult for you to see her leave, b/c you knew the negative influence of BFF. I actually believe it will come down to her choosing between her MR and BFF. OM may not even be in the picture right now, but there will be someone soon, if she plays like a single girl.
When I said she'll give you the BD, I didn't mean she will try to leave the home or ask for a D. It will just be her way of telling you she is through working on the M, and doesn't want to continue MC. She enjoys hanging out with you, and your friendship. She may even want separate bedrooms. If she tells you this, then she may feel bolder in living a GGW lifestyle. One son is in college, the other one is right behind him.......so, it won't be too difficult for her to do whatever she wants without them seeing her as bad. And, she benefits from certain advantages or luxuries of being legally M, without responsibilities.
If your W should ease off into a separate bedroom, then WON she says the words.......she is instigating in-house S. I am not in favor of IHS, but this is not my life.....it is yours.
I really don't know what more you can do, Jim. If you have another MC session scheduled.....and if she attends, I would definitely approach those topics you named. If you could have a private phone session with MC to catch her up to speed, that would save time in the face to face session.
Some people would advise you to just hang in there and continue being the best man and father you can be. If that is your decision, and you can live happily as roommates, I'm sure you will still receive support, and perhaps the MC would benefit you alone (IC).
It's strange how we can feel about people we've never met. It upsets me to see what she's doing. You may remember that I said she might contact, OM once more (during her withdrawal period). Well, I think she has......or else......BFF's influence is seducing her back into waywardness. Mix the influence and her other signs of hanging on to OM, with her unrealistic fantasy, tells me that she was not through the withdrawals and wasn't strong enough to have a "friend" constantly beckoning her into the thrilling life of a free spirit. Little things that are coming to the surface, like not wearing her ring and keeping photo of OM's roses on FB, etc., suggests she never let go. She can't fully commit to a MR if she doesn't let go of her OM.
When is MC scheduled? See how that goes, her response, etc. In the meantime, don't roll over and play dead......don't continue taking her out showing her a good time, or staying home to oversee things. After her little talk about regretting that she ever got M, I think you need to step back. Pick up your GAL. You are a good man, Jim. A man of value. Her words sound as if she wants to throw you in the trash and be on her merry way. It's wayward script, for the most part.
((hugs))
I agree with all of the above.
The focus has been on keeping her away from OM and BFF. But your true needs and feelings have been avoided when you look outside of her ending it from OM. Where do the two of you go from the A being over?
Why do you think she ended the A? I think you really need to think on this one.
What she did to you with that kiss was very messed up IMHO. And you have every right to be hurt, because it was hurtful and inconsiderate of your feelings. I think how that made you feel should certainly be addressed.
You also rationalize her behavior a lot. Something doesn't sit well with you, we agree it shouldn't, then you make excuses for it and pretend like it isn't that bad.
Honor your feelings.
You also rationalize her behavior a lot. Something doesn't sit well with you, we agree it shouldn't, then you make excuses for it and pretend like it isn't that bad.
I think Ginger is right. Sometimes, you are explaining the situation more clearly, but other times, I feel I can respond with an entire page to a request for input, only for you to come back and rationalize what she did. I mean, if we have it wrong, tell us.......but I agree that you seem to rationalize a lot of what she does. Maybe that is your coping technique, IDK, but at times it's almost as if you just can't bear to see it for what it is.
Anyway, I'm kind of glad it wasn't just me who sees it.
not sure what i can really do to force the action.
I could, i suppose, insist that if we are to continue with this that she MUST follow the professional advice we are receiving
I could also always force the issue of her R with bff...
unless i can be certain she is supporting us in our efforts, you need to stop hanging out with her. But that seems kind of thin and possibly even controlling on my part.
But otherwise i don't see what i can do at this point but tighten up as described above, take the lead on the MC, and await developments.
I'm surprised that no one has ever addressed the fact that you treat your wife like a kid. She isn't, Marriage isn't about one person teaching the other person how to be a spouse (as you teach a kid to be an adult), it's about two adults wanting to share their lives with each other.
If, when, she wants to be with you, she will consider your feelings regarding BFF and SHE WILL decide what she wants to do about that, you don't get to decide for her. YOU get to decide if you want to be with the person she is, she gets to decide who she is.
I think you completely dismissed the suggestions that you should live your life and stop trying to control your W.
You say that it wouldn't be "right" for you to go out and have a good time if she's intentionally not going out. I ask you why? She had the A, she has to work on herself, and if that requires her not going out to not Stray (because she wants to commit), that's great for her. That does not dictate that you aren't able to go out and enjoy your life, you staying home JUST so that she won't go out is controlling, and not healthy.
Sandi, Ginger, Coconut, thanks. You folks are some of the more frequent posters to my threads, and the feedback I have gotten over the last few days on this current thread, particularly the last couple of pages, has been some of the most insightful and helpful, particularly in terms of being illustrated/explained/etc. that I think I have gotten on these forums.
(Sandi):I agree that you seem to rationalize a lot of what she does.
I think I do this to an extent. And when I am truly rationalizing away things she does I think it is because I see differences or nuances that I think others might perceive, and I want to try to "work" or emphasize these. I am a very analytical person by nature, and part of my job, and my ability to do it well, has always been to analyze similarities and differences, to distinguish things that can be distinguished even on the smallest basis. In my W's case, I honestly think she is, as Sandi says, a "WW". However, while there are patterns, no two people are exactly alike, and I see differences in her-- a softening here or there, an unwillingness to turn her back on her kids, etc., that suggest to me she is not beyond hope. That does not mean, however, that I will necessarily be willing to countenance what she does or turn a blind eye. Maybe it is a way to give myself hope. Idunno. She's definitely "lost" right now in some ways, and It's really hit home the past few days that she is still not in a place that is conducive to piecing our MR back together.
Another reason, though, that I think I come across as rationalizing is that I am, again somewhat as a result of training and professional exposure (as well as just my own personal bent) a stickler for facts. I hate fuzzy renditions of the facts (one reason I pretty much stay completely clear of politics these days, lol). When I see someone cite to a fact that it is not pretty much "dead on b**ls accurate" my natural inclination is to correct it. Sometimes that means I'll disagree with the ultimate conclusion the poster reached, sometimes not. Example: Sandi2 made 2 statements above in one of her responses that on some days I would have "corrected" as not being completely accurate: one that my W said she "Wishes she'd never gotten married" and second that she still had pictures posted on FB of flowers from OM. I didn't correct either because I am really trying to be more "message" focused and I don't think that changing those two facts would at all change the very valuable insights being provided to me. (And I am trying to look deeper without knee-jerk refuting something-- for instance it's very possible that Sandi just took the necessary implication of my W's statement that she sometimes wished she had run off to join the Peace Corps to be that she wishes she'd never gotten married.) FWIW on the picture, since I brought it up, she took that down the day after we started "working" about four months back, pretty much confirming that they'd been from OM-- my recent ruminations on this merely wondered if that picture was still in her archives or had been deleted-- I don't know one way or the other. But, in either case, there's no difference to the value of the message.
IOW, I am trying to read more broadly and look for the value in all posts rather than nit-picking each fact.
(Coconut): YOU get to decide if you want to be with the person she is, she gets to decide who she is.
This is particularly well-stated, and there are some things that I am now thinking about (the kiss incident in particular, as well as continued association with bff) that make me wonder if I actually do want to continue to be with her. I think THAT is some of the emptiness and hurt I have felt since Friday night... the realization that, though I loved her once more than I can describe, and still do love her, that maybe she is no longer a person who I would want to spend the rest of my life with. And that makes me very, very sad, because she was such a good, sweet person, and still is, I think, deep down inside... but she could turn either way at this point, to dark (selfishness) or light (the person she was.) I don't know which way it's going to go, but now I may be in the weird position of stepping back, maybe even cutting the cord without her having even (AFAIK) resumed any contact with the OM.
On other things, the three of you (and others, obviously) will have different takes. As recently as a week or two ago, when things were actually looking much better, I actually still had some posters that seemed to practically be calling for me to put her out in the street or the like... which wasn't warranted.
Right now, going to see what my MC has to say. She has preached patience and deliberate restoration of touch and intimacy... but things are a little different now. I talk to her (she is also serving as IC for me) this afternoon.
Thanks again.
Right now, going to see what my MC has to say. She has preached patience and deliberate restoration of touch and intimacy... but things are a little different now. I talk to her (she is also serving as IC for me) this afternoon.
hoosjim,
My MC/IC was the best. She was kind of a mix of Sandi and Jesus (without the wanker). But, I'd always forget to take $20 cash for the co-payment and she didn't take credit cards. I still owe her $20 from my last visit. I'll have to stop by to say hi and pay the co-payment.
The moral of the story is, don't forget your co-payment. (I give sh*tty advice so that's the best I can do.)
I am not snooping on her, but have "spot checked" her a couple of times based largely on Sandi2s suggestions. Call it "intel gathering" or "research" as I think that that is more apt.
You're snooping on her. Quit trying to blow smoke up my butt, I've been around here long enough to know what snooping is
If you think it's helping you in some way than carry on, but it almost always does more harm than good. If you find something then you'll be upset. If you don't find something then you worry that she's gone even deeper and you need to snoop deeper. It's a no-win situation.
That is not what happened, however. I took her back, she committed to ending things with OM (which she has apparently upheld), and we committed to working with the MC. She is still doing those things. Not sure I could jettison her now without looking like a two-faced jerk, undoing the good progress that we have made so far (we weren't even friends 6 or 7 months ago) and permanently poisoning the waters.
I wasn't suggesting that you "jettison" her, I was just saying you need to go back to DB'ing basics. Get out. Get a life. Work on yourself. We should all do that even in a healthy marriage! We put too much pressure on our spouse to "complete" us (oh how my MC hated that line from that movie) when we should be establishing ourselves as independent people that bring our spouse along on our life adventure rather than building our life around our spouse. You are trying TOO HARD. Back off and give her space. She's not sure if she likes you right now, and the more you smother her with attention then the worse that will get.
Insisting on sex "Right damned now" just doesn't make sense in the current state of affairs. Moving deliberately towards that is what, apparently, I am committed to now. Problem is I don't see that being successful as long as W is in fantasy land
Forget sex, she won't even kiss you! Like the others said, your rationalization hamster is running in that wheel, running running running. You are allowing yourself to stew in an unacceptable position because you've convinced yourself that you put yourself there and that it's not so bad after all. You reach in for a kiss and she rejects you? That is unacceptable. Do you get it? UNACCEPTABLE. Get out. Get a life. Leave her alone. Let her pursue you, and if and when she does, establish some rules in reconciling. Kissing, fondling, sex, those things and everything else you expect in a relationship.
and I have moved OUT of the realm of distancing/going-dark/after-the-last-resort-technique. Perhaps I should not have so moved but... the fact of the matter is that I did. Going back to that right now not really an option.
Sure it is. I've been dating my GF 3 years now. If she starts acting up then guess what I do? Get out. Get a life. Go dark on her. Quit pursuing. Sound familiar? And guess what she does, she goes into full-scale pursuit. Brother when are you going to start thinking like a man- YOU ARE THE PRIZE, NOT HER.
Hoosjim, your journey tot his point was a little fuzzy.... what I mean by that is....
Why did your wife stop the affair? Why did she say she did? What made her choose to?
I really really think this is an important question.
the realization that, though I loved her once more than I can describe, and still do love her, that maybe she is no longer a person who I would want to spend the rest of my life with. And that makes me very, very sad, because she was such a good, sweet person, and still is, I think, deep down inside... but she could turn either way at this point, to dark (selfishness) or light (the person she was.) I don't know which way it's going to go, but now I may be in the weird position of stepping back, maybe even cutting the cord without her having even (AFAIK) resumed any contact with the OM.
Jim
these recent contributions are hitting hard. I have recently mentioned in my own thread that I appear to be seeking ego boosts (I really like one of the D's class Moms). This is completely irrational but I am coming up to the first anniversary (not that I am going to signify it in any way - once again thanks to great advice here) and I am human. But any limerance I end up getting is going to be so counterproductive as I still cannot see any endgame in sight with my cake-eating W. My DD achieved a major milesone in church last night and I also confessed to the priest so I must keep the moral flag raised (I have to). With the holidays coming up I will also have to watch the drinking for obvious reasons. I am afaid that also due my job I am also extremely analytical!
best
hoosjim--in the word of our good 8-legged friend Charlotte, "salutations!" my name is artista... i am a new poster... i am a former WW who is piecing with my husband--since March 2015... i have been following many threads hear on DB since February 2015... i would say that i have logged on every day--give or take 10--since then... one of the reasons i decided to finally participate is YOU... i see so much of myself in your wife... i feel like i can tell you exactly what she is thinking... exactly why she is doing what she is doing--and more so, why she isn't doing certain things...
however, as a stranger, i do not want to bombard you with my perceptions regarding your circumstances... but i do want to tell you that i can relate to your wife more than i can with any of the other WWs i have read about on these boards... and i have read about a lot of them in the last 21 months...
i wanted to get that out of the way before i make any comments regarding your sitch...
thanks much--
hoosjim- i feel like i can tell you exactly what she is thinking... exactly why she is doing what she is doing--and more so, why she isn't doing certain things.
OMG that is like gold around here. I can't and won't answer for Jim but can tell you that most all of us here place the first hand accounts of former WAW or WW at the front of the line.
If she starts acting up then guess what I do?
Starts acting up? Wow. That just caught my eye. Kids act up. Students act up. Even horses act up, but spouses?
Anyhow the actual reason for my post is this: earlier on in my M, before the BD and separation, and before I knew DB even existed, we had a "rough patch". It went on for near six months during which I'd say what we were doing was "piecing". As things got better my W still withheld sex and somewhat effection. Normally she wanted sex everyday. Now, however things were different. I don't know if she was punishing me, not sure or what. It just felt to me like piecing or that she was still not sure about staying in the M even though everything else had gotten much better. In hindsight I think she knew she coukd call the shots, so she dud just that. That continued until one night when she butt dialed me. Right or wrong I heard her out with a male co-worker. No lines were crossed between the two of them sexually but she had not so nice things to say about me and the M. After they parted it disconnected. Within a minute she calls me all cheerful, friendly, "how are you? I'm on my way home. How is your night going, etc." until I told her I had just heard everything. She was very embarrassed and apology filled. The odd thing about it and why I tell this story is that brought it all to a close. Right or wrong, our rough patch ended that night and she was fully back in the R. Of course 4 years or 3.5 years later she dropped the bomb and left.
A lot could be said on his I could have better handled my end but my point is, it just took the tabels turning like that to snap her. I don't know if this relates to your sitch or not but it feels similar to me. Perhaps had I gone dark, etc, that would have had the same effect? It just feels like my W knew she had the upper hand if you will. She had me so she didn't have to do anything. She then lost that at least in her mind with that accidental call and she could no longer hold out. It feels like that's what your W is doing. She knows she has you back. She knows she can do whatever she wants as long as OM is not contacted. She knows she doesn't have to kiss you. She doesn't want to either but knows she does not have to. When she got caught with OM she knew she had to change. Now she's back with the upper hand. I just wonder if that doesn't need to be changed.
Take what you can from that. I hope it helps.
however, as a stranger, i do not want to bombard you with my perceptions regarding your circumstances... but i do want to tell you that i can relate to your wife more than i can with any of the other WWs i have read about on these boards... and i have read about a lot of them in the last 21 months...
Artista, I have to say that I have a reputation amongst some around here as being harder on the female posters than on the male ones. I don't know... I don't think its anything intentionally biased on my part, just happenstance based on small sample size. Or subconscious. Idunno. At any rate, I am striving very hard these days to be appreciative of everyone who takes the time to chime in, on their own valuable time, about what is without question the most important, and difficult, crisis i have ever faced in my life. So: Thank you for chiming in, and I second the DonH's sentiment above that the viewpoints of former WW's like you and Sandi that give us firsthand insight into the mysterious mindset of the fairer sex are worth their weight in gold. Please, by all means, share (or fire, or hit with a 2x4, or whatever :)) away!
And thanks again!
She says she still gets that regret which she's always had (and which she has in fact told mme about in the past even as far back as when we were dating) that she feels like she wanted to be a free spirit and just get on a bus and head west or to joion the peace corps or something but she never did,
The reason I said she never wanted to marry, was deducted from the quote above. I did not mean it was a direct quote from her.
The reason I said she never wanted to marry, was deducted from the quote above. I did not mean it was a direct quote from her.
Yeah, I sort of deduced that (as I also posted in that post). My point was that the more revisionist/defensive/excuse-making me might have just "corrected" your statement without looking deeper to that implication.
She's actually said that to me before, or something similar, as far back as we were dating at first. She'd say-- "I don't know what I want to be... sometimes I think I'd just like to drop everything and go join the peace corps or hitchhike across the country or something" At that point I was dating her, head over heels and didn't want to lose her so I'd usually deflect to something else "you're doing so well in PT school" or "wouldn't you miss everyone around here" or the like, or just say nothing. Never really thought she was TOO serious about it.
She also has an image of herself, and even did pretty far back... again when we were dating, of being someone who never followed through with anything, particularly if it meant taking chances. She was recruited to play college basketball, then suffered a minor injury and illness her first year that were unrelated to the sport and never went back to it... though she says she easily could have. She never continued with trying to finish her Physical Therapist training/education (what she was doing when we met), either, and there are other things she cites... such as the wanting to go overseas and do mission or charity work.
Funny thing, I was worried about losing her back then but I probably could have gone with her had I been willing to drop everything in my own life (I was fresh out of grad school at the time), but that thought never even occurred to me for some reason... I just assumed she wanted to go off by herself-- which was a definite a possibility because at the time she was torn over our newly-formed relationship, a long-term relationship she was just getting out of, and the prospect of two or three other guys who were trying to ask her out. As she put it, she just wanted to be friendly and "hang out" (As she put it-- and we still joke about whether we were "dating" or "hanging out") but everyone wanted to get serious and be in love and she didn't know if she was ready for that. (Back then, she was probably what a lot of guys would call a "tease", even though that's not what she was about.) At any rate, in one of our MC sessions a few weeks back that came up again in the context of her wanderlust and the things she never did that she missed out on, and she said "well in all the times I said those things when we were dating [like wanting to go off and join the peace corps], how come you never said you'd come with me?"
Now of course, she is clearly saying "I don't see myself doing those things with you", so not much wiggle room for interpretation there... but it's interesting that she might have been open to me joining her way back then and it honestly never even occurred to me.
hoosjim,
Did your wife have a difficult childhood?
Did your wife have a difficult childhood?
Not abusive, if that's what you mean. She is close with and still loves her parents, brother, and sis very much. Her upbringing was very,ummm, repressed(?) Strict catholic upbringing, alot of guilt for doing the wrong thing, almost puritanical to the point she was scared to date. "Good girls" didn't hold boys' hands or kiss them under the mistletoe (or ever). Alot of expectations, she feels, placed on her as the oldest to be a good example. Never had a drink until college, her first sex was also college and ended in a terminated pregnancy... very traumatic for her but she was afraid would devastate her folks to tell them. She still carries around that guilt. The whole puritanical view towards sexuality and even physical intimaCy was VERY contrary to "who she is", which is naturally very touchy, hands on demonstrative affection, even with guys she's just friends with and, with someone she's involved with, a VERY strong sexuality. Created alot of inner conflict for her growing up especially as a teen.
Hey Jim, she sounds a lot like my STBXW with the catholic guilt. She was also the oldest, and waited until college for her first time with sex.
I've been following your sitch closely and I'm pulling for you. I just don't feel like I often have much to add.
Keep at it!
Ahhhh, which brings me back to my question for the 3rd time (completely understand if you don't want to answer)
Why do you think she ended the affair? Sense of duty? Catholic guilt? Because she missed you? Because she was sorry?
What was her reasoning?
I had a very similar upbringing. Strict parents; religious; good-girl vs bad-girl indoctrination......mostly from my mother; being an example; oldest child; a lot of responsibility was placed on me; etc.
And, I was a good girl! Never did anything that I would have been too embarrassed to tell my parents. I was the proper Christian young lady. Got M and became the proper W. That is..... until I got hooked playing online games (as an escape from my reality at the time)......which eventually led to other things.
Why do you think she ended the affair? Sense of duty? Catholic guilt? Because she missed you? Because she was sorry?
What was her reasoning?
Okay, gonna answer this, but all y'all who get on me for "mind-reading", remember: This time,
I was asked..Ginger, I am not even close to 100% confident I know why. And, of course, that makes the assumption that she has actually ended the affair (a prospect which Sandi2, who has been pretty much completely and unerringly right in reading my W and her status for pretty much my entire tenure here, deem questionable at the moment... maybe worse than questionable.)
Based on what she
said, alone and in a vacuum, it would be because "she didn't want to be 'that person' who was 'the cheater'", and she didn't want to do anything to hurt her kids. What she supposedly told the OM in the very sketchy break up call was that she "wanted to figure things out with hoosjim". (Not sure how or if she further qualified that.)
I would wager all I have financially that the kids are at the very least a significant element of it. She has a strained relationship with the one already, and fears losing them or alienating them, though she loves them both desperately. She has said she sees us all sitting there when we have a good family dinner or engrossing family discussion or some other moment and "can't envision us doing that separately or not having those moments in the future."
She has also said she knows that her leaving would hurt and disappoint a whole bunch of people. Obviously her parents who she always has been afraid of disappointing and being shunned by. (Funny thing is with this aspect of it, which is also probably very significant, is that if she is to be the "whole" vibrant person she can be... she likely has to shed that aversion, at least to the extent she practices it now.
And then there's me. She says she doesn't want to hurt me, and I believe her. She actually says she doesn't want to hurt anybody. One of the convos fairly late in the A that I recorded was her talking to bff, and bff was asking her what she was going to do, and she talked a lot about OM and about "not wanting to hurt him", at which point bff said "what about hoosjim? I'm not hearing you say anything about him." To which my W responded: "It's sad, but I've
already hurt hoosjim..." (implication being she had not yet hurt OM and didn't want additional people to be hurt). This came up in our discussion a few days after she had called OM to break it off and then I had gone to confront OM to warn him off... which didn't get physical but did become pretty ugly, and in front of his teenaged son (a teammate of my son's on the football team), where she was very teary eyed and said "I hurt him, and now he's been hurt more". And, fwiw, she seems legitimately distraught and remorseful when she or I talk about how much that betrayal from her, with a friend, really hurt me.
Her "Come to Jesus" moment, where she confessed (some would say forced to confess by circumstance) that she had been keeping in touch with OM by phone and text, and where I subsequently walked away, down a wilderness trail miles from home, was extremely emotional. "No! Please Don't Go!" she cried, tears still streaming down her face as she got out of the car to come after me. But I neither answered nor looked back. I think then she realized what she had done, how damaging it was to still be talking to OM, and how much it hurt me. So I think there is a desire there "not to hurt hoosjim anymore" as well, though if I had to guess I'd say I'm second to the kids and maybe, MAYBE tied with her parents.
Does she really want to "give us a go?" Uncertain. Very early, she said she wanted to "see if she could get to a point where she wanted to try to work on us" (this was before the final confrontation, above). Later, it was "Everything is so much better between us and you are such a different person... but the sparks still not there. I want to see if I can be happy living in that kind of relationship" (meaning without the intimacy). More recently, she has granted that if we DO want a return to intimacy that we are going to have to work at it and be deliberate about it... the "just do it" approach. But it still feels very weird to her.
I would say she is definitely NOT at a "I am all-in on this marriage, no matter how hard and no matter WON we are successful in restoring intimacy" or a "I know that we CAN restore intimacy if we are both committed and working on it" point. Which, I think, is a problem. Part of her (or a lot of her) is convinced it can't happen. So it probably wont.
Hope that answers your question
Addendum to the above. A couple of times right after that breakdown at the car and before we both decided to "give it a try", she made teary calls to me, leaving messages saying "I've really been thinking about you a lot the past few days" and said the same FTF a couple of times along with "I do miss you"... though still not in a sexual way.
She wants to escape, but she has a lot of ambivalence. And, she's going to turn 50 soon, so time is quickly running-out. The children will be leaving over the next few years and life seems bleak. In addition, her depression blinders are on and she can't see a viable happy future.
At least you know she's human.
so here is my take... just about everything you have said about your wife, i can say about myself... down to the Catholic upbringing... down to always doing the right thing for everyone else... wanting to be a free-spirit... having the close friend who was not a good influence (although i do not blame my friend at all for my actions--and i am sure your wife does not blame her friend) to not wanting to disappoint my two sons... to the weight-consciousness... i am 5'5" and weigh anywhere from 114-120... and just her nuances as you explain them remind me of me... (btw--regarding my friend... there was no way i was ever going to give up that friendship--for anybody... but i did, eventually... it happened naturally as i began working on my marriage)...
first and foremost, i have noticed from the beginning that she never has expressed to you that she was all in in saving your marriage... she played the "wait and see how it goes" card... and many WWs do that very thing... because of this, i would say you are not piecing... you cannot be piecing if you have not both purposefully determined that you will take the steps needed to save the marriage... or at least try to take the necessary steps.. you took her back without a full commitment from her... and now you feel stuck... now you feel like you can't call her out on anything, like she holds all the cards...
but that's not true... you hold the cards... when i approached my husband about really reconciling, one of the first things he said to me was that i needed to seek IC... that was a must... he gave me a certain amount of time to make my first appointment... you can require this of your wife... and you can flat out ask her if she is all in... i think you are afraid to do this because you do not think she will answer in the affirmative... i think if you did ask her this, her answer would be vague... she won't say no, and she won't say yes... she will give you enough to string you along--but you don't have to let her...
before my husband and i really got to piecing, there were some false starts... i wanted to hang on to the marriage, but still do my own thing, so i paid lip-service and did just enough to keep him at bay... i see your wife doing this to you... she can play coy, and you really do seem like putty in her hands...
when she went to her room and started looking through one of the books you are to work through, that--i am pretty sure--was for show... just like when she told you that she was going to store x to purchase a gift for one of your relatives--she was offering you too much information that was not necessary... not natural... both instances she exhibited what i call "affected" expression... it was not authentic... so that makes me think she was up to more than what it would seem on the outside... the clothes, the earrings and bracelet all told you something, but you seem to quickly disregard these signs... she looked to be going over MC material--so she "seems" to be making progress... there is a lot of ambiguity in your situation... everything "seems like," and "appears to be," but nothing is definitive...
personally, i don't think she will BD you again after the holidays... i think she would be content to be non-committal to your marriage while living the single life part-time--which i believe she is doing now... something in her actions and in-actions tell me her A never ended... i know this is all very painful, but unless you know where things genuinely stand, you can't truly begin to do the work--whatever that work is, saving the marriage or moving on...
artista
p.s.... i meant to add that during our false starts, i withheld meaningful affection/sexual affection from my husband because i did not want to give him the wrong idea... it's strange because even though i was trying to do just enough to keep our relationship going, i didn't feel right taking things too far... i didn't want him to get his hopes up... it didn't seem fair to him--bizarre, i know... and i also didn't want to "cheat" on the OM...
p.s.... i meant to add that during our false starts, i withheld meaningful affection/sexual affection from my husband because i did not want to give him the wrong idea... it's strange because even though i was trying to do just enough to keep our relationship going, i didn't feel right taking things too far... i didn't want him to get his hopes up... it didn't seem fair to him--bizarre, i know... and i also didn't want to "cheat" on the OM...
IDK if I have said it on this thread, but somewhere on the board, I have practically said word for word what you stated here.
I'm glad you have decided to start posting.
. It's been several years since my wayward journey, and sometimes I think maybe I'm too suspicious or negative about the LBH's accounts of their WW. So, it's refreshing to see reinforcements......and I'm sure these guys are ready to hear what you have to say.
Artista,
I am glad to hear you say that. Also I find it interesting to hear you mention not wanting to cheat on OM. I often felt that my own W had a sense of loyalty to OM. Who just happened to have his own W that he was clearly never going to give up. If you could check out my sitch on my thread and explain that weird sense of loyalty, I would greatly appreciate it.
Artista, wow, this is all really great insight. I agree that your sitch seems very similar to my wife's (you're even pretty much her exact size-- she's 5'5 and about 115, though if you take her at her word as to what she's gained she's prolly like 125 to 130 now... but wears it well). I was wondering if you'd be willing to give more info on your marital sitch... what led you (or opened the door you) to become a "WW". Was your H neglectful as I was of my W? A SSM? I'd also be curious as to how your H processed and responded to your A? What do you think was the biggest factor in you returning to him? And did he have a bunch of fits and starts (and get it wrong sometimes) before he "got it right."?
you cannot be piecing if you have not both purposefully determined that you will take the steps needed to save the marriage... or at least try to take the necessary steps.. you took her back without a full commitment from her... and now you feel stuck...
Yes. No question i took her back without a full and satisfactory commitment. I have rationalized on this before, but it is all well-documented throughout my threads. We
did, however, discuss this very issue tonight. Came up in the context of our discussion of the trip to "Store X" next to OM's hangout. MC was very clear that that was dangerous and that, whether or not W wanted to admit it, it is quite probable that her hanging onto the EA in some respect, or at least having difficulty getting over it, had something to do with her decision to go out there--- reminded me W about her saying "I didn't even plan to meet up with him that day when I went out" a few months back when that happened--- the last confirmed physical meet up between them in June. (Though i am reasonably certain they saw each other at the beach over july 4th, as well, which is what I use as my "last date" of seeing each other, with 7/26 being "last contact"). I told her how i felt about that, that i felt like she was discounting my feelings and not considering how taking that risk might make me feel and how it might affect her and our progress had she actually met up with him. Also asked her how she thought she would feel had she seen him. Her response was that she knew he would not be there that early, and she continued to say she really felt like she didn't want to feel like she was too weak and vulnerable to go certain places. I told her given what he had supposedly committed to, that that wasn't good enough... aren't we supposed to be putting our MR
first. Told her we both need to be fully committed to this-- "all in". Could she say she was fully committed to making his marriage work, to working to restore intimacy and all that went along with that. Her response was somewhat better than it had been previously, but still equivocal, IMO: Basically she said that reading ahead through some of the intimacy exercises, it was "very hard for her to imagine" the two of us doing some of those things. In fact for the more intimate things, she said she "couldn't see it at all" from where she was currently standing (and she cited how awkward the kiss felt), nor could she see how we could get there. She was, however, (or so she said), "willing to try" to get to that point. I and MC both brought up the "going in with an attitude of failure" dynamic, and she said this was not the case... That she "wasn't committed to it failing, she was committed to trying and open to the process, she just didn't understand "technically" how she was going to go from a point of a kiss being awkward to a point of being fully comfortable with sexual intimacy, even as she understood that it was possible from hearing it from the MC and reading about it in the book. At any rate, still sounded kind of noncommittal to me.
one of the first things he said to me was that i needed to seek IC... that was a must... he gave me a certain amount of time to make my first appointment... you can require this of your wife...
This came up again after the session when we talked., when she said something to the effect of "maybe im just permanently effed up inside", but i didn't put the screws to her. What i DID say was that, while i did not think her going to IC would be a cure all for us and guarantee a full and happy reconcilliation, I also did not think such a reconcilliation (or indeed an fulfilling relationship for her) could happen without her going to IC to resolve those internal issues, some of which have been with her, as she agreed, since we first met. She's never had a romantic relationship where she's felt "100%" or "fully committed and convinced she was doing the right thing." She said she had been thinking about IC and had been close to calling the MC twice this week... but never did. Sounds like your script. We are meeting with MC again next week, and i am holding the IC in abeyance, but if there are further "disturbances in the Force", I may very well establish that as a sine qua non of us continuing. How did your husband ultimately convince you to go, and, for you, what was it that changed your mind to go?
it's strange because even though i was trying to do just enough to keep our relationship going, i didn't feel right taking things too far... i didn't want him to get his hopes up... it didn't seem fair to him--bizarre, i know... and i also didn't want to "cheat" on the OM...
it was not authentic... so that makes me think she was up to more than what it would seem on the outside... the clothes, the earrings and bracelet all told you something, but you seem to quickly disregard these signs...
Actually, im not fooled at all. She is not stupid, she knew full well where that store was located, and I have tracked her a couple of times doing drive bys or almost doing drive-bys (she drove out that way once on way to work but turned back) when that's ALL she could have been up to. So i KNOW she is still not fully over the A. Is she actively trying to keep it alive? Unknown... but there ARE a couple of things i want to check.
when she went to her room and started looking through one of the books you are to work through, that--i am pretty sure--was for show...
Well, she actually DID read it, apprently, and further along than i did. She and MC were discussing a section of it with which i was unfamiliar. But... point well taken, she has definitely "done stuff for show" in the past-- its actually one of her "tells" that something is up.
. i think she would be content to be non-committal to your marriage while living the single life part-time--which i believe she is doing now... something in her actions and in-actions tell me her A never ended... i
There are definitely some things that make you go "hmmmmm." Problem is, they are all pretty vague and non-specific and some (like the jewelry) may not even be accurate. (I haven't pressed her specifically on specific items, and not sure i really have any grounds to.)There ARE a couple of things i strongly suspect that would definitely make me feel better to hear her "fess up". One would be the bracelet, which looks suspicous but could EASILY be innocuous, and the second would be the 4th of July beach trip with bff where i know for a fact OM was staying less then four blocks down the boardwalk from them (dumbass posted a picture of himself standing in front of a well-known bar and hotel there on FB that week-- i honestly can't believe my wife was attracted to such a stupid piece of low-rent white trash, but i digress), but... her and bff continue to stonewall on that one. It was before we had our final confrontation and her agreement to "work on us and dump OM", so it would be "covered" and I have told her such, but she's not biting. All I can think of is that that one, where she left us over the holiday weekend after our own family beach trip, might look particularly bad to the kids, and she is definitely afraid of "losing the kids", to whom, I told her at one point, I am extremely reluctant to lie, especially where such a lie would involve allowing a man of questionable moral character to take up a position of influence in their lives. She doesn't hold QUITE all the cards.
everything "seems like," and "appears to be," but nothing is definitive...
I am a lawyer by trade and training-- nothing ever
is definitive.
Artista, I was wondering if you could share some more color on this facet, in particular. What were some of the things you did, or didn't do, out of a sense of loyalty to the OM? Did your husband suspect or figure out why you were doing these things? What are some of the "tells" that one might look for, here? For example, one of the things my W does, she started getting very shy about me seeing her naked about the same time she started her A with the OM. One of the excuses she gave was that she did not feel great about the way she looked and was self conscious, but also that she felt uncomfortable about me seeing her since we no longer had that kind of R. But I always wondered if it was out of a desire to keep those parts of her hidden and reserved "only for the OM." Of course, now, she is continuing with that shyness, although now she does have a more credible excuse that she has put on about 15 pounds. Not that I mind, but I have been able to discern that much. She's definitely curvier than before... but ya think she'd be a bit more open since we are "working on things."
Any other insights would be warmly welcomed... this is great stuff, thanks!
Arista so nicely stated what I have been saying all along. You never got a firm commitment, it's always been a gray area and working with that gray area is not piecing and you are 10 steps ahead of where she is.
Look, I am going to be wholeheartedly honest here. I applaud your work and commitment. But, from what it's been looking like, and what has been said in MC..... her heart isn't in it. Likely you can keep her away from OM for a while, but I don't think she will ever put herself wholly in this M unless it's her saying "I love you, I want to have to a new fulfilling M. Right now she is going through the motions, just like she did when she was a kid in her catholic upbringing.
How do I see your M having any hope at all? By you simply letting her go. If she can't give you a firm commitment with her heart truly in it, just let her go. Let her be free. I know you are terrified to do it, but if she isn't all in and just keeps doing what she is "supposed to do", I don't think the intimacy will ever be restored and you will not be returned to a true M.
I personally think you do deserve to have true intimacy with your wife.
Told her we both need to be fully committed to this-- "all in". ... Basically she said that reading ahead through some of the intimacy exercises, it was "very hard for her to imagine" the two of us doing some of those things. In fact for the more intimate things, she said she "couldn't see it at all" from where she was currently standing (and she cited how awkward the kiss felt), nor could she see how we could get there. She was, however, (or so she said), "willing to try" to get to that point.
What is your mindset on how you want this sitch to go down? Are you going to hang in there even if she never fully commits as long as she doesn’t see OM, or do you think at some point you will decide you deserve more than a wife who is “half” in?
The first sentence above was you telling her what you need, then a few sentences of her not committing to what you need, but not really shooting it down, and NOTHING was accomplished; still status quo.
I really think you need to back off from her, go out, do your own thing and focus on improving yourself (work, social life, sports, trying new things like sky diving, taking flying lessons, whatever) and let her be. I am not saying to tell her you “done”, I’m not saying to be mean to her or ignore her… I’m just saying to be Jim, not Jim and Wife. If she asks to join, then feel free to let her, but if she doesn’t, don’t invite her. I think your past where being mysterious is a benefit (but I could be wrong), but I think you need to start being awesome and her want to join in on that.
So, the consensus, including me, appears to be that in order for any effort at reconcilliation to be worthwhile, that W needs to be "all in". Further, if she is not, that i should, in some respect, "let her go." So, my question to everyone (not just Ginger to whom i am "responding" here) is: What do those two things "look like", in your opinion ("all in" and "letting her go"). Coconut kind of responded to this a little bit, below in terms of what he thinks I should be doing for me, but... given the particular dynamic in my case (I've thrown all in to this, I am being a good husband, offering some pursuit, being cheerful, PMA, going to counselling, etc., and her voicing some level of commitment to it but not, apparently whole-heartedly.)
What i mean, is, how do i approach each of these facets with my W? The first seems a little clearer-- I just need to talk to her, ask her in no uncertain terms: "Why are you doing this, why did you break it off with OM, are you fully committed to this marriage and doing whatever it takes to renew/restore/fix it?" and hope for an unequivocal answer.
The second, to me, would something like: "W, i know you have been trying, and doing alot of things that you know I want you to do WRT working on our MR, but... I can tell your heart is just not in it... you've told me your heart is not really in it. I don't want to continue with this under those circumstances... i want us to have an amazing, fulfilling MR and I don't see it happening the way things are going right now. You've said you need to get some things of your own figured out, and mentioned IC several times now, so if you want time and space to figure those things out, and get counselling, you're welcome to stay here as long as you are not seeing other men. You're also welcome to go if you think that's best. I am not saying i want a separation, just that right now, where you are, I don't know how beneficial further MC would be." And then pull back, stop pursuing, be pleasant when around her, and go have fun and be amazing on my own. Presumably all after Christmas.
What are other posters' thoughts on this. The second aspect of this seems the trickier by far... how to disengage and reverse course when we've already gone down that road a bit, and without doing any further, permanent damage to our R that might keep us from reconciling in the future.
And should have added to the above at the end of the second paragraph: "And what, in y'all's opinion, does "all in" and "unequivocal" look like coming from my W?"
Jim,
It doesn't need to be all or nothing, a "discussion" about it kind of puts it in that context.
Do not talk to her about it, just do it. You don't need to explain what you are doing and why, in fact doing so is BAD. Let her ask if she wants to know, and keep your response general, something to the effect of "Just keeping my life fun".
It's ok, beneficial even, if she thinks she may be losing you. Please DO NOT discuss this with her before just making changes for you.
Wanna know how to start, text a friend or two right now, tell them you want to do something new, fun, exciting, whatever and make plans with them to do it. Then when the day/time comes, just tell your W that your going out with "friend(s)" to do X.
And should have added to the above at the end of the second paragraph: "And what, in y'all's opinion, does "all in" and "unequivocal" look like coming from my W?"
sorry missed this.. Think about what you've done over the last year or so, what you've said and actions you've taken. That's what all in looks like. You'll know when / if it happens.
everything coconut said in addition to no more intel, no more tracking, no more limitations on where she is going. Let her decide if she wants to do it or not. Let it be HER CHOICE to do so.
And, finally, does anyone out there actually think/believe that W and I can reconcile by just "riding this out", without any kind of pause/separation here, continuing the MC through her "withdrawal/mourning" period, her seeking out IC, and us working through the intimacy restoration progression?
W, i know you have been trying, and doing alot of things that you know I want you to do WRT working on our MR, but... I can tell your heart is just not in it... you've told me your heart is not really in it.
This statement is contradictory. You are telling her you know she is in the relationship at the same telling her you know she wasn't. You know she wasn't so just say, "W, we talked about working on the M, and I'm giving my all to ensure we work, but I can tell you are not. It seems to me that you are not fully committed to making our M work". That's the truth, from what you have wrote to us, she isn't fully committed so be honest with her about your feelings. Don't try to not hurt hers, just be honest. Make your feelings a priority.
I also think you can pull back. If you truly think she is still involved with the OM, I'm not saying that she is or that you have hard evidence, but if you truly feel that way, then pull back some. Also, I think you need to start engaging your W on your feelings and what you suspect. If you feel a way about something make it known. If the bracelet is bothering you, I would tell her, tell her what you think about it, then tell her you think she should get rid of it. That bracelet shouldn't hold more value than your feelings and the M. I think your a placing your feelings and priorities on the backseat to not upset or push your W away. But IMO, if you'll working on the M, she should respect your feelings and your opinions. She is the one that cheated and she should be doing more work to prove to you that she isn't cheating anymore and she wants to be with you.
You have to hold her accountable for her actions, she went to the mall, and if you truly feel you know why, then say, "I think you went to the mall because of this reason, instead of saying, why did you go to the mall". You deserve an explanation, you shouldn't have to interrogate her for an answer. She should want to be open and transparent, and she is not giving you that. (she know her going to the mall to bother you, so she should of called you before hand and said, she was going) When she gives you those blanket statements, tell her those types of answer makes you feel uncomfortable and not confident about her commitment to the M.
IMO also, I think you need to ask those def questions, why did she break it off with OM, was it because she wanted to be M? You also need to ask, how did she break it off, was it by text, phone call, email. Or did she just stop talking to him. If she sent and email or text, ask to see it. Ask her what did she tell him, to let him know she was calling quits with him, also ask if she told him she was working on the M. Those are two different things, her telling him she's stopping the R and her telling him she is working on the M. She should tell him both, leaving no openings about their future. You need def in all these answers and you should be able to drill down with her and she not get defensive. Or else you mind will make up it's own answers.
Why wait until after Christmas? You have 3 weeks before Christmas, why put yourself through that stress for 3 more weeks. You deserve to know.
I hope this isn't to blunt, just my opinions.
It doesn't need to be all or nothing, a "discussion" about it kind of puts it in that context.
Do not talk to her about it, just do it. You don't need to explain what you are doing and why, in fact doing so is BAD. Let her ask if she wants to know, and keep your response general, something to the effect of "Just keeping my life fun".
Okay, but to me this falls in the category of "just jettisoning her" i mentioned above. In particular, what do i do about the MC. We are already scheduled for next week, and W agreed that after the holiday we should be going every other week at a minimum with "intensives" (2 to 4 one-hour sessions same day) once every 4-6 weeks, as we both (and MC as well) agreed we come out of those more energized and "felling better" about things. Would you recommend just cancelling those without explanation? (we only have two scheduled actually, right now, next week and early January) Continuing to go but being vague about my "fun personal life" (contrary to what MC is preaching to us about full and open honesty)?
What you're suggesting is textbook DB-ing and makes sense... but doesn't seem to account for where W and I are, ummm.... procedurally(?)
Why wait until after Christmas? You have 3 weeks before Christmas, why put yourself through that stress for 3 more weeks. You deserve to know.
Because she already has this "the holidays have always been a blue/down time for me" preconception, and if i drop all of this on her right now i am being "more of the same hoosjim" that she associates with crappy holidays.
You're welcome to stay here as long as you are not seeing other men. You're also welcome to go if you think that's best. I am not saying i want a separation, just that right now, where you are, I don't know how beneficial further MC would be." And then pull back, stop pursuing, be pleasant when around her, and go have fun and be amazing on my own. Presumably all after Christmas.
I have posted on your thread in the past because your sitch reminds me a lot of mine and we are close in age. My W was "trying" for roughly 2 years. We were even having great sex during that time frame. However, I could always tell her heart wasn't into it.I am about one month away from being divorced.
MY sitch was never going to get better with us living together. Like Sandi always says " I have never heard of a couple reconciling during in house separation."
IMO if you say what you mentioned above your wife will gladly accept that offer and then leave you minute she finds somebody else. In other words, if you don't physically separate and let your W see how life will be w/o you, this will not end well.
what I'm suggesting is a different mindset for you.. One where you are living your life for you, you are having fun, you are enjoying this moment of life that you will never get back.
Nothing else needs to change if you don't want it to, in fact, I wouldn't go changing everything at once.
Don't over analyze living your life, just change your focus from "doing everything possible to save your marriage" to "doing everything possible to enjoy your life".
Okay, but to me this falls in the category of "just jettisoning her" i mentioned above. In particular, what do i do about the MC. We are already scheduled for next week, and W agreed that after the holiday we should be going every other week at a minimum with "intensives" (2 to 4 one-hour sessions same day) once every 4-6 weeks, as we both (and MC as well) agreed we come out of those more energized and "felling better" about things. Would you recommend just cancelling those without explanation? (we only have two scheduled actually, right now, next week and early January) Continuing to go but being vague about my "fun personal life" (contrary to what MC is preaching to us about full and open honesty)?
What you're suggesting is textbook DB-ing and makes sense... but doesn't seem to account for where W and I are, ummm.... procedurally(?)
It's not jetising her, again, your not being mean or ignoring her, if she shows interest allow her to join, whatever, but do it to enjoy yourself. You are not going to be doing something every minute of every day, your not disappearing from the house, much of your life will remain fairly similar, except you will be focusing on improving/enjoying yourself rather than saving your M.
As for Marriage counseling (or anything else that comes up), just go with the flow. How about this, if she approaches you about going, say sure; let her make the appointment (don't tell her to, but if she does), and then you go. Just don't initiate it, let her do the work.
Because she already has this "the holidays have always been a blue/down time for me" preconception, and if i drop all of this on her right now i am being "more of the same hoosjim" that she associates with crappy holidays.
On the other hand, it could give her a taste of just how wonderful Christmas would be with the OM. They could drink beer and tow cars on Christmas Eve and binge watch Ice Road Truckers on Christmas Day.
if you don't physically separate and let your W see how life will be w/o you, this will not end well.
LH, I really appreciate your contribution and your time given to offer me your perspective, particularly coming from what must be a very painful position for you, but... I have a hard time agreeing g with this, and it doesnt seem to be supported by the DBing literature.
You, of coyrse, are not the first person to post something to that effect to me but... the idea that "the ONLY path or even the MOST LIKELY path to reconcilluation requires separation just seems nonsensical to me.
What's everyone else's take on the "necesdity" of physical separation in general and... in particular where a couple is at the stage W and I are at (that is, already trying to some degree.)
What's everyone else's take on the "necesdity" of physical separation in general and... in particular where a couple is at the stage W and I are at (that is, already trying to some degree.)
I have a friend who is reconciled that went your route.
It took about 15 years and then his wife had cancer and decided she now wants to stay married.
They are now both in a SSM.
if you can handle just the way things are right now with no forward movement, then stick with it. You can have a friendship type non-intimate M.
Otherwise, yeah, never saw a reconciliation under the same roof to be anymore than what Cadet mentioned.
And I have actually been here much longer than my "registered" date says.
the ONLY path or even the MOST LIKELY path to reconcilluation requires separation just seems nonsensical to me.
I am going to have to wholeheartedly support LH and disagree with you hoosjim. Having lived in an in-house separation for couple of months vs. moving out and being physically separate is not even on the same level. It was absolutely crucial for my own reset process to have the physical separation. You are able to achieve the necessary distance to look at yourself, your W, and the MR objectively and get the space to figure yourself out. It also gives the other person a look at life with you. I would rather put my feet on hot coals than live a single minute in the same house.
My mental sanity has improved by a billion fold just not having her around. That alone is priceless.
in particular where a couple is at the stage W and I are at (that is, already trying to some degree.)
I am sorry but your W is not trying. Sandi and Artista have already painfully pointed this out to you. You need to look at everything recently that she has done and none of it points to her trying to work on the MR and unequivocally being transparent and full in.
Okay, but to me this falls in the category of "just jettisoning her" i mentioned above. In particular, what do i do about the MC. We are already scheduled for next week, and W agreed that after the holiday we should be going every other week at a minimum with "intensives" (2 to 4 one-hour sessions same day) once every 4-6 weeks, as we both (and MC as well) agreed we come out of those more energized and "felling better" about things. Would you recommend just cancelling those without explanation? (we only have two scheduled actually, right now, next week and early January) Continuing to go but being vague about my "fun personal life" (contrary to what MC is preaching to us about full and open honesty)?
Your wife suggested, what do you need to have healing? You are being open, what about your W? Is she giving you full and open honesty?
Because she already has this "the holidays have always been a blue/down time for me" preconception, and if i drop all of this on her right now i am being "more of the same hoosjim" that she associates with crappy holidays.[/quote]
Jim you asked for advice and then you make all the answers about how your W will feel. What about you? Why do your feelings have to be put on hold. Why can't you go out? Why do you have to suffer through Christmas with questions on your heart and mind. So, if you state how you are feeling your are ruining her holidays?
I agree with LH19. And, honestly, if you do it, I see YOU being perfectly fine and much happier after a couple of months, at the latest. You won't believe how good it feels not to be living in a home -- where you're supposed to feel your greatest comfort and most at ease -- that isn't one where you're constantly being given the message that you're just not good enough, that the life you've built isn't good enough, that your W regrets her choices . . .
I lived your marriage, I lived your in-home separation. I did what you are doing in terms of trying and trying to get your WAS to buy in and see value or potential in coming back emotionally into the M. My ex is so similar to yours it is spooky (to me). Yours may stay out of duty or guilt (although I suspect she's just riding it out until you're empty nesters), but she isn't going to give you what YOU want if you two stay under the same roof, because she truly doesn't believe it's possible for her to do it, absent a "spark" she's always going to wait for but never do anything to bring about. She decided a long, long time ago that she wants "more" out of life than what she perceives herself as having. She's playing the long game to get there relative to some, for sure, but, honestly, other than a flurry of guilt when the OM came to light (when, not in-coincidentally, you were at your most detached it seems) and some corresponding pursuit from her, what can you hang your hat on progress-wise? That you're friendlier, like better roommates? I'd argue that's not nearly enough (for you or anyone who wants a life companion) and is really just a reflection of you having worked on yourself enough to keep things calmer and lighter most of the time. And you're into your fourth year of no sex, I believe? No!
I don't see the harm in waiting until after the holidays to make any moves like this, but I would be doing everything I could, now, to detach (you're still on the emotional hook like a citation-worthy large mouth; it just jumps off the page), GAL -- go back to DB 101, like you're just post-bomb drop.
HJ.....I have no idea how my MR is going to turn out but if I have to go through this I am glad my W moved out and that we are separated. IMO, if you do it right there will be all the time and space both of you need. I have not seen my W since Sunday (for about 5 min) and have not had a conversation with her since Monday morning which was an email exchange about our D's basketball game.
Let me tell you......it is awesome! I am not chasing a thing nor taking table scraps. F that.
I think a lot of books or experts are not in favor of separation because you don't have a chance to communicate and work on the MR. I think those books and experts also assume that both parties are willing to work on the MR which in 99% of our situations that is not the case.
Do you remember me trying to get a straight answer about whether or not your W said she was fully on board with saving the MR? Remember me asking you if you were putting words in mouth, or hearing what you wanted......instead of what she was actually saying? You kind of danced around it, but finally said she did commit. Are you currently saying that it was all half-a$$ed on her part?
Look, I realize that even if she meant it 100% at the time, it doesn't mean she'll carry through and do what needs to be done to heal the MR. What I am talking about here is that you must be painfully honest, Jim, with yourself and with us.......if you want to receive the right advice. All you could think about was the OM/A. Then it was reaching the point of piecing. Then, you were focused on intimacy (although it's been forever since last time). I understand, and this is all common for LBH's. But when I asked questions, or if I had suspicions or suggested something negative about your W.........you would correct me. That's fine, and if I have it wrong, I want to know. However, I am having a bit of a frustrating moment (after reading your recent posts) wondering how much you were pushing and just how much she truly was on board.
As I have told you, the actions you take with a repentant and willing W who commits to doing the work........is not the same as when she is rebelling against the MR. I agree that you are not in piecing. Based on what you were reporting, I thought she was working to get through the withdrawal & mourning period. I feel this is necessary, in order to be able to really work on piecing.......otherwise, you are wasting your time. It appeared that you were inching your way along, until the BFF weekend. And now.......I learn she never put her wedding ring back on........which is a sign of rebellion, IMHO. And, there are some other things coming out now, that cause suspicion about her. You get a little wish-wash about the jewelry, but her own words and actions are what I am seeing that aren't good.
You really need to stop making excuses and rationalizations for her.......unless you want to live in ignorant bliss.
I asked you to see how she responded in the recent MC. Did the MC assign more homework? What was W's attitude during the session? How did she act on the way home? Did she seem distant, in deep thought, texting, cold, or encouraged and talkative?
I agree with the others about having a R talk. It does not advance the R, at this particular time. In fact, the things you report that she's currently saying, are nearly word for word conversations in the past. It's like watching a carousel.
. You must have the patience of Job!
((hugs))
There was a conversation about moving out 3 or 4 months ago in your thread, at that time, you were not willing to move out... Unless that has changed, why even ask the question?
I was a big proponent of you moving out at the time, but am pretty neutral about it now. You've had time to slow down the spinning, there seems to be a general peace in your home, so I don't feel that it is a "necessary" step at this time. But I do feel that you need to put the focus on you, which will also help if S occurs later.
As for comments about never seeing anyone successfully piece after in-house separation, while rare, I know of TxHubby as one who was successful, so far. I have also seen a lot of S that didn't result in successful piecing, so it is not a guarantee.
[quote]the idea that "the ONLY path or even the MOST LIKELY path to reconciliation requires separation just seems nonsensical to me.
Jim, I am going to tell you what my IC who was also my MC told me. In 25 plus years when she had couples that came in committed and had the attitude that "divorce is not an option" she had a 100% success rate in restoring their marriages.
If you want to stay married and act like roommates for the kids and the financial security that is fine but I think you need to openly discuss it.
If you are not, on January 2nd I would sit your wife down and say "honey I love you and I adore you and I know I have neglected you in the past. I can not continue to live in a marriage with no intimacy. I think you are beautiful and sexy and I can't continue to live in the same house as you without being able to kiss, touch and ML to you" (you get my point)
If she says "I can't give you that" then you need to walk and don't look back. (not literally) Try to convince her to leave and if not then consider leasing an Apt for a year. You have to strongly and confidently communicate to her that these terms are not acceptable to you and are not negotiable.
Look man, like JRuss said you will be fine. You seem like a good dude who is extremely intelligent. Imagine being with someone who wants to be with you and not worrying about tracking devices, burner phones, loser OM and BFF. You kids are older they will be fine.
Maybe down the line she comes back. Maybe she doesn't. Maybe she comes back and you don't want her back.
How long can you keep living under these circumstances?
Yes, but the in-house S worked for TxHubby because he was relentless in his DBing and did not give a flying f%^K what his W thought. You have to be ready to do that and not look back. If I was still in an in-house S, I would've followed Tx's footsteps. I don't see any other way of doing this and it cannot be half-a$$ed.
As for comments about never seeing anyone successfully piece after in-house separation, while rare, I know of TxHubby as one who was successful, so far.
Everybody clings on to Txhubby. Everyone also forgets that it almost killed him, took almost 3 years and it was when he filed for divorce his W came back.
BTW I respect the h$ll out of txhubby.
My mental sanity has improved by a billion fold just not having her around. That alone is priceless.
Yep, my experience was like Maika's. Even though I'd pushed my wife to move out early, I was still very much dreading move-out day. Three days after move-out day I thought I was in heaven. No more eggshells, no more sh*t flying around.
I just want to make a short comment about TxHubby having a successful in-house separation. I disagree. He did not have a successful in-house S that led to reconciliation. In fact, it was so bad it led to him becoming a WAH! (I responded to him when he posted about it). He was fed up and walking away from his WW......and that action is what led to a reconciliation (if they are still together). I have not read any updates or seen him posting lately.
So, I don't think we can give credit to the in-house S having anything to do with his WW's change of heart. It was the fact he was done.....and leaving her, and she knew he meant business.
I feel like to much attention is being put on TXHubby, and not enough on my point..
If he's not willing to S (which he wasn't last time this was brought up), then I am suggesting he stop focusing on trying to save his M, and start focusing on saving himself and see which way his W goes.
Others brought up that in house S never results in piecing, so I mentioned TXHubby, because I felt that in house seperation (which he's been in for many many many months) was simply being shot down as doomed to fail without any alternative being offered. I've since remembered Lim and Sandi2 as also being reconciled without full seperation.
But I go back to my original suggestion, of stop focusing on your W and saving your M, and start focusing on you Jim.. If S is something you are considering, then great, but if not, I'm offering my suggestion.
Coconut, I was not responding to your post or your point about TxHubby. It's just that different posters refer to TxHubby having a successful in-house S, and it wasn't what led to his reconciliation.
As for my own situation, I was never in-house, nor physically, separated.
Coconut, I was not responding to your post or your point about TxHubby. It's just that different posters refer to TxHubby having a successful in-house S, and it wasn't what led to his reconciliation.
That's definitely a fair point about TxHubby's sitch... However, if her were here, I think he would (consistent with what he's posted in this own threads) give some credit to his WW being in the house where she had a "front row seat" to his 180s, GALs, and "awesome new life."
I fill a LITTLE this way about my own W. Had i dropped the hammer on her right after BD in January and said "he goes or I go", she'd have been gone. Probably never to come back. Our relationship was completely dead, done, kaput, etc. We weren't even friends. No way, I truly believe, would we even have had a shot had i given her the boot on day one. We hadn't had sex, or even kissed, in NEARLY FOUR YEARS. Now, later, could I have (and even should I have) set more effective boundaries and/or walked away when she didn't immediately stop seeing OM, and with greater effect? Probably, and that's a mistake I own... can't go back and undo that any more than i can go back and un-do the several years of neglect I inflicted on her. (And, no, before you start, I absolutely do NOT consider that to be justification for the Affair.)
Well,
that escalated quickly...
Sandi-- Ima respond to you in a new thread, so please see that one:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2770606#Post2770606On the "Rationalizing" still? Really? I looked back over my recent post and don't think I saw a single rationalization. In
onepost i stated how I
could have rationalized were i still so inclined, but quickly noted that i pretty much completely accepted what you were saying and understood your point. Any "rationalization" in that post was completely for illustrative purposes. Seems like there got to be a bit of a feeding frenzy here at the end of the thread to start a 2x4 party on me and you jumped in as well.
I'm guilty of a lot of things and missteps, here, but rationalizing and explaining things away for my W in THIS thread is not, I think, one. Any "explaining" or "mindreading" i did in this thread was done
exclusively in response to requests from other posters for said explanations or mindreading.
Ima summarize the MC session and our post-session talk in the new thread.