Old Thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2764413&page=12Please view my previous post; as I was finally hit be a real life 2x4 and this might be the push I need to completely detach.
IMHO, she removed herself from your responsibility for her safety when she made the decision to leave the M. Yes, she played you again. Btw, it doesn't have to include a R talk.
That wasn't her goal. Her goal was to use whatever it took to make you respond to her. Okay, that was yesterday. Lesson learned. Now, instead of punching yourself, practice how to handle it when it happens again, b/c it
will happen. Yes, look in the mirror and practice different scenarios and how you stand up for yourself. But mostly, just don't respond to her texting. The more you don 't respond, the more she'll up the game. In other words, she'll try to find something to pressure you into responding. When you reach the point where you can see what she's doing, it will either amuse or annoy you.
Recognizing the nice-guy traits in how you interact with people is step one. Now, learn how to respond (or not respond) in another way. Maybe you need to accept and believe you are not responsible to take care of your WW and you are not obligated to return text messages or anything else. You have to retrain your way of thinking, especially about her. She has lied about OM, and she clearly wants to keep you dangeling for her own ammuzement. The only way she will really be attracted and respect you as a man is to believe you are done with her. If she believes you are not interested in having a cheater and a liar for a W, then it may give her the incenitive to straighten up. But as long as you keep this NGS, you will continue to be abused by women just like her.
You have been trained to behave nicely in whatever situation comes. Therefore, it may actually cause you some discomfort to do anything differently. I married a man who is the epitome of NGS. And......I can testify to the fact you are able to change!
You may have some difficulty knowing the difference from standing firmly/strongly and showing male confidence from being just plain rude. IDK, I'm just guessing on that one. I encourage you to read the books on the subject and set goals for you to work on in this precise area. Frankly, I feel that's more important than anything else, at the moment, b/c it affects your entire life.
Associate with other men who are the "take charge", confident, leader type of male (but not an a$$) and who know how to command respect from others. Just spending more time around your buddies will help to some level. In many stories we read on the board, the H stops GAL with his buddies and spends any free time with his family. While that may sound like a great family man, it often produces a guy who fears standing up for himself and/or upsetting his W. He spends his life trying to appease her, and the results are not good. He becomes co-dependent on their MR b/c he no longer sees himself with an identity without it.
So, read the books and spend lots of time with strong, respected men who are not pushed around and manipulated by their W.
You can get there! You are getting stronger.
Sandi - thank you once again. The main focus of my IC this Saturday will be my NGS, and ways to overcome WHY I am soooo afraid to lose her.
Unfortunately, the most confident man and strong male role model in my life is her BIL. (tricky situation there).
From a WW perspective...she knows shes lying right? I mean, what in the world... It is just the way of the WW...
I have read some of your posts and your story is very similar to mine although we are a little older and have been together longer. My W is doing the same thing behavior wise with some days reaching out to me and others pulling away and being cold. It has been very hard for me to detach from her but the more I do the better and more in control I feel. I also see her reaching out more now that I have pulled away. I am still in a very difficult situation as the OM is still involved but the longer I go on with the 180/LRT the better I feel about myself. It's nice to know there are other men who understand what you are going through.
Unfortunately, the most confident man and strong male role model in my life is her BIL. (tricky situation there).
I have read where some guys choose a fictious character, either in a movie or novel.
From a WW perspective...she knows shes lying right? I mean, what in the world... It is just the way of the WW...
Absolutely. She knows she's lying, playing you, manipulating, cheating, etc.
I have read where some guys choose a fictious character, either in a movie or novel.
Like James Bond or Steve McQueen. Do you think they would put up with a WW BS?
I have read where some guys choose a fictious character, either in a movie or novel.
Like James Bond or Steve McQueen. Do you think they would put up with a WW BS?
I'd like to add my hero, Austin Powers, to the list.
Austin Powers HA! I will add Phil Dumphy (Modern Family)...
So my WW is in Mexico right now for her friends wedding that we were both looking so forward to going to. Now her friend and her finance are pretty close to me as well. We are good friends to say the least.
WW just texted me saying: "Please make sure you text Mr and Mrs sometime this weekend if you care about them. I know from my conversations it would be really hurtful if you didnt".
Now I know I was going to text them anyways; but know, if I do, I feel like it will allow my WW to think she still has control over me. However, as I think about it; the mr and mrs have not once reached out to me during my and my WW problems the past year basically....
So I am thinking, why would I reach out, if they never did. How would this look in the future though?
By deciding to not text them, you're still letting your WW have power over you. Forget that she asked you to text them. Instead ask if you care enough about them to wish them well. In the end, it's just a text and won't cost you anything.
Hey board,
Just had my first session with my new IC. We went through the whole family tree stuff, etc, etc. and then I told her the main reason I came was bc of the M. I explained what I thought is the big picture of our M and how we got here....my NGS, her ER/PA, all the stuff I have put on this board.
As we were discussing she came to the conclusion that my NGS is not in any other part of my life(work, friends, etc.) except with my W. It seems to be from the fact that I never saw my parents argue or deal with their problems, so I really had nothing to go off of in terms of conflict within a relationship. And with W being such a strong person, when I withdraw from conflict, it is just more exemplified.
I then tried to explain the theory of this board in a nut shell with a WW (more "tough love" than anything). Basically drawing a boundary of if OM is in her life I will go dark/nc/etc. And I tried to explain the times W "reached out to me" (her words; this board words would be 'temp checking').
In her opinions she seems to think the reason she has been reaching out; and some of the words she has been using those times were b/c she still cares; and even though is stuck in the mindset of with this OM, that she still wants to work us out. It was her opinion that it was the R best interest for me to reach out to explain I do still care, and we would only recon if we were to talk. To talk first, date, and work with MC to fix what was broken. Find the things which upset us and work through those things.
She seems to think my W is a strong person, and quite possibly came on way to strong within the R; causing me to withdrawal. She said, maybe not for Thanksgiving, but for her bday at the end of the month to send a card and provide to her LL (words of aff).
She also said we are both at this bridge which is broken, but neither of us want to rebuild it...or are to stubborn too.
What do you all think?
Chris...I have struggled at times with this as well. Do I reach out, should I send her a card, write a letter, etc. It sounds good when I think about it but then I fall back on bomb drop, her moving out, her still not making an effort at recon, her not doing a lot of things. That makes me halt in my tracks.
She has no problem moving out, telling me she doesn't love me, telling me she is not attracted to me, telling me she is bored but now she has a problem telling me she loves me again and wants to recon? I don't buy it.
I wouldn't do anything. My W doesn't have a confirmed OM and I am not doing anything. Your W has a confirmed OM and you are going to pour your heart out for what reason?
IMO it makes you look weak......it indicates you don't respect yourself. Stay the course.
IC's are good to have to talk about your own $hit but IMO not qualified to give out marital recon strategies. They are no more qualified than my retired mom.....IMO
Chris,
Only you know your W. What has she reacted too? It's confusing I know. But you have to do What works. Have you try to do what this IC has told you to do before. If not, then try, evaluate and then move forward. Pay attention, to your W actions. Remember believe not of what she says and half of what she does.
CHRIS,
IMO if you pour out your heart and soul in a card To your W her and the OM will get a good laugh out of it and this will confirm to her you are still plan B.
That BS [censored] only works in today’s movies.
I agree that OM and W will be laughing, while in the bed together.
I agree that OM and W will be laughing, while in the bed together.
Tread, that was rough, man. I'm sure Chris doesn't need any help making mental movies.
Chris, I think a lot of IC's have trouble seeing the point of DB'ing. A good friend of mine is an IC, and she's always saying I need to just come out and openly discuss the R with STBXW, and ask her if she wants to recon.
Yea, that was a bit harsh; ha. But I can laugh it off...
So ever since the BD, I have been trying to figure this whole situation out for myself. I read so much stuff, thought about it night and day, etc...and I landed on this board. I have read so much work that people have put into their our sitch'es using the BD methods; and the science/theories behind it sound very smart and logical. The most I will take from all these techniques is the actual divorcing remedies... The ideas of the cheese less tunnels, the "act as ifs"; basically all the theories behind how to make the marriage thrive. And for the most part I would think each and every IC/MC would consider those techniques to be very healthy for a M.
The hard part about the DB techniques is the NC/DARK/DETACH; which is were my IC/MC disagrees with. It is hard to wrap my head around the two very different view points when dealing with the same situation.
If it’s hard for you to put your finger on it, don’t feel the need to explain or defend. Just say something neutral like “I need a break” or if you want to be more pointed “You are making me uncomfortable” and then walk away.
Chris.....in reality your not working on your MR. Your not working on it because your W doesn't want to work on it. If she did you would know it, she would not have left. So lets say you write a letter and send it. What would you do if nothing changed? What would your next move be? IMO your rolling the dice but if she doesn't respond like you want her to would you continue waiting around as is or would you really move on mentally or file for D yourself?
Your W has lied to you and is still talking to our whatever with OM. Why do you feel the need to chase?
I just texted my W b/c she has a few tools I need; and she told me her garage code to get into her house. I said Thanks.
She came back with: "And yes, I'm having fun and so is the bride and groom" --- they are still in Mexico.
This is just screaming passive aggressive from her end. It also plays into what IC told me...W is trying to get me to reach out to her.
This whole thing has got me twisted today!!! AHHH!!!! thank gosh football is on tomrw to take my mind off everything. Going to my buddies house to watch the games with some peeps.
To add; it's funny b/c W never texted me when I was out of town for my buddies wedding; that she didn't come too. She never asked if I was having a good time with my family and friends; and I know she didn't text the bride or groom that weekend.
It's like I have to put in work, but she doesn't... what's up with that?
This is how she felt our R/M was before the BD. I "never put in emotions"...
I hate all this.
How are you going to work on a M that you don't have?
You are not going to see change until you let her go.
Chris,
You are already putting in more work for the relationship right, by trying to save the M and DBing. I know its unfair, but life is never fair.
Thank you all, I do agree.
I am looking for some success stories which I can read up on. Now I found Squiggy, but I cannot find his third thread, there is no link to it at the end of his second thread. Also, JoeJoe, I am going to be reading up on your story in the coming days.
Click on his name and it will pull up his posts.
Ewwwww! I wouldn't touch his name with my mouse pointer. It sounds so reptilian; small, slimy, cold and squishy.
Chris,
I read Squig post all the way to the end. It's a good read. If you have any questions let me know. I will check it with your thread as much as possible. I'm no expert and I'm still DBing and working on myself. But I will give you what I can from my opinion and what I have learned from the awesome people on this site.
Too bad Benny's threads are gone but his journey was worth reading. From where he started and where he is now. I don't think he considers himself out of the woods yet, but his process and how he tackled everything head on was really illuminating for me personally. He has some great insights. Even if you read up on his latest thread, it will be useful. It's probably buried and his username is now Benito. Check it out.
In her opinions she seems to think the reason she has been reaching out; and some of the words she has been using those times were b/c she still cares; and even though is stuck in the mindset of with this OM, that she still wants to work us out.
I really think your IC is wrong on this. You've got a full-blown WAW on your hands actively participating in an affair. ANY reaching out on her part is nothing more than temperature checking and/ or cake-eating. You are Plan B all the way and if you reach out to her as your IC is suggesting then she will be content that you're still in reserve and will go cold on you again.
It was her opinion that it was the R best interest for me to reach out to explain I do still care, and we would only recon if we were to talk.
Not necessary, despite all the DB'ing you have done your W KNOWS you still care, and she KNOWS all she has to do is reach out 5% and you'll sprint the other 95% to her. Your recon does NOT depend on you reaching out to W to talk, for Heaven's sake there are hundreds if not thousands of examples of LBS's doing that right here on the forums and to my knowledge it has never worked, not once.
To talk first, date, and work with MC to fix what was broken. Find the things which upset us and work through those things.
Absolutely right, but your W has to take the first step, not you. And she may never take it, you just don't know what will happen unfortunately.
She also said we are both at this bridge which is broken, but neither of us want to rebuild it...or are to stubborn too.
Again I think your W looks over the bridge and sees you standing there with tools in hand. She knows all she has to do is pick up a hammer and you'll fly into action furiously rebuilding that bridge. BUT SHE HAS TO PICK UP THE HAMMER.
I am looking for some success stories which I can read up on.
Look up dday101798 . Here's a link to the recon post that happened 6 months after D:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1781811&page=74Here are a few others that someone else posted a while back:
Notlikingthis
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2515648&page=1upside
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2260170#Post2260170Freckle
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2735806#Post2735806
Again, thank you all for the postings and advice.
After working through my emotions and the crazies in my head and reading over your thoughts I do agree and am on the same page as this board. I guess I just had a moment of weakness and let the IC get the thought of recon in my head. Now, I do have small hopes of recon, however, it is not my main focus at the moment.
My main focus is to break free of this NGS, become a more confident male, and express my feelings (my rights or wrongs) to those I interact with. This is my 180 journey.
I recently met up with BIL (who is against the EA/PA) who is my main male role model for breakfast on sunday. We had a nice conversation just catching up, and the convo went to WW towards the end. I told him I was being active in my life (gym, friends, reconnecting with some fam). I just explained to him my current feelings of feeling sorry for her, and I felt she is in this fantasy land of not having to deal with consequences. He agreed, and then went on to tell me her two sisters were also to the point of noticing her actions and both of them also realized she has never been held accountable or given consequences before (from her family either). <--- This was the major downfall of our falling out I believe (which also coincides to the NGS).
Ever since that conversation with him and the text I received from WW over the weekend, I do realize she is completely a dif person than I married. For some reason the fear which has been consuming me at about a 10 is now down to a 3 or a 4. When I saw fear, I am speaking to the fear I used to get when she would criticize, or complain, or talk down to me, or generally disrespect me. It might be hard to explain, but now when I look in the future at any interactions with her, I just see a lost women how is projecting negative emotions and I somewhat feel bad for her. I will continue to work to get that fear down to a 0 or 1...but I have to start somewhere.
Got rec'ved a text from WW:
"I hope you had a good thanksgiving and to enjoy your aunts engagement party today"
Do not respond. No contact, remember?
Hey Board, just journaling;
It has been a couple days; staying NC from WW...she is still calling/texting OM constantly. Her BDay is coming up in a couple of days, and I am not going to be speaking to her. I expect a few choice words from her b/c of me not wishing her a happy bday, but unfortunately for her, it is not my responsibility for her happiness at this point in time.
Until I rec'v a fully apology and an commitment to work on recon (a new MR); only then will I determine my reconciliation process and determine if I still want this person who has hurt me so much.
I have become sad over the past couple of days b/c hope is fading quickly. I am coming to the realization she is not going to stop EA/PA; and the reality of moving on and starting a new life is front and center. Although I am working with my IC on overcoming NGS, gaining confidence, and getting through my pain/resentment/anger; I am still losing a life long person in my life.
My pain and hurt is shifting from her not wanting me and being involved in a EA/PA --> to --> me being so foolish (passive/co-dependent) and letting someone treat me poorly for so long. This is what I am working on to become a better Chris right now.
Her sister and BIL reached out to me b/c they want me to meet their newborn, and I expressed I was not quite ready b/c I need my head and heart right before I make that commitment (which they responded in total understanding and let me know they are here for me whenever I am ready). I plan on going to meet up with them sometime in the next week or two. This is something I want to do; they are special to me; and I will make sure WW will not be around when I am there. Thoughts on this activity??
Chris,
IMO it is her family and as hard as it may be I would stay away. My W's brother got married and I never reached out, I never wished her father a happy birthday either. When you are going through something like this I think it is assumed. My W's best girlfriends from elementary school reached out to me over the summer and while I appreciated it I told them considering the circumstances there is no need to contact me going forward due to the situation. They are great people, I love them a ton but at the end of the day it is her family and friends.
Others may disagree but I would stay away. While it is a nice gesture IMO it shows your hanging on.
I get the impression that your SIL & BIL are about the only friends you have, where you are currently living. Am I wrong? I hope so, b/c you need someone.
Joseph9, I disagree.
I see no reason not to stay connected with these people who have been a huge part of his life for a long time. I don't see any problem with reaching out on special occasions to say happy birthday or congratulations or whatever. Make sure you're genuine, and not doing it as a ploy to get back together.
HOWEVER, do NOT visit with her family while she's there, or attend family functions, like weddings or meals for the holidays.
Sandi - No, I have a few close friends who live in my city; and I see often. I am always out with them over the weekends; whether it be in my current city, or when I go home to visit my parents (where even more of my friends live). I just have a great connection with her family...it is strange I guess.
Jim - your right, I would not do it to win her back, or I would def not go for the wrong reasons...
She has two sisters, and both BIL's and I are really close.
Well, you do what you want. I think it might hinder your detachment by being around her sister, but that's your choice. If you decide to go, be very careful what you say, b/c blood is thicker than water. Women talk........especially sisters. They get mad, make up, and talk about everything that was said during the mad period. Know who else talks? Spouses. So, be careful.
I agree; I do not think I am going to see them...I don't know yet. I made a GAL for tomrw (WW bday) to volunteer for Habitat for Humanity after work. Hope to meet some cool people.
Hey board; not going to wish happy bday to WW tomrw. I am totally guessing here; but giving her entitled past and WW’ness it is assumed she will have some choice words for me in a text. Probably guilt tripping mixed with some bullying. I just want to prepare myself to not fall into a trap or do anything which will set me personally back any more. I’m trying to push through this stuff; but it is obvious I am finding it difficult.
Don't be afraid of her choice words. Every time you feel she might suck you in or bait you, just think she's probably going out with OM to celebrate her bday. That should clear any NGS right up. Not saying start making more mental movies, but with OM in the picture, she's lucky if you even look her way by chance.
My W had her bday recently and I sent her a very short text about it. But, in my case I have no proof of OM and I didn't want her to think that I didn't wish her out of anger or spite. Trust me, if there was OM, I would've done absolutely nothing.
NGS is difficult stuff. I empathize with you as I saw myself in that book as well. Just work to change it up for yourself and don't take any $hit from her. If you think that her texts might just be too upsetting to deal with, turn off your phone for a few hours or the whole day if you can and do something for yourself.
Just remember - she's blatantly lied to you about cutting OM off. I made a new rule in my house - I don't suffer liars and cheaters. You know you're worth more than whatever she's slinging at you.
Stay Strong / Stay Well / Stay Chill
Choice words M; thank you. I think blocking my phone will be perfect for the next couple of days.
I completely agree and understand all that you said...but for some reason I can’t freaking brake that train of thought...it’s so frustrating to myself. She’s treated me like such crap (losing, OM, etc)...like why WOULD I give her a time of day?!? I don’t let anyone else comtrol me this way (work, friends, family, strangers). She has this stupid hold on me.
Who cares about her choice words. Chris, you sure shouldn't. Let her words slide off your back like rain water. You got this Chris. If she wanted you to wish her a happy bday she wouldnt be talking to OM.
You not wishing her a HBD is the reality she has created.
Hey board; not going to wish happy bday to WW tomrw. I am totally guessing here; but giving her entitled past and WW’ness it is assumed she will have some choice words for me in a text. Probably guilt tripping mixed with some bullying. I just want to prepare myself to not fall into a trap or do anything which will set me personally back any more. I’m trying to push through this stuff; but it is obvious I am finding it difficult.
Good for you! Mental preparation is key, and planing to GAL. So what if she has choice words? It's like........"You better say something about my birthday, or I'm going to chew you out and call you names". Lovely!
Why don't you block her on your phone, and keep it blocked? What's the worse that can happen............she'll get mad? Is that what bothers you, or the guilt she uses to control you? That guilt is what you need to release. During the M, she used it to get you do whatever she wanted. She uses guilt & anger.......but you don't have to live with it.
There are no kids from the M, so you are in the perfect position to go dark. There is no reason you have to accept her calls & texts.......and leave the line open for her to take pop shots at you. Every time you hear just a few words, it throws you for a loop. Block her........and stay away from her. You will come through it, and feel good that you put the brakes on being verbally bullied.
Chris, you
are getting stronger. All you need are a few words of encouragement from us, but you are the one to take the wheel and drive that car. You made me smile when I read how you plan to GAL today. That shows me a guy that is taking charge of his life. I feel better knowing you have friends. ((hugs))
Don't beat yourself up about it Chris. It does take a while for the mental real estate not to be occupied by the WW. I've been at this a bit longer than you but I've had a few strange days where she is taking up a lot of mental space. But, both of us will be able to shake it off as we refocus back more on ourselves. Just observe it, let it pass, and take care of yourself. It's a combination of time and consistency in efforts on ourselves that will eventually get us out of this funk.
And here it is. Text from W:
"I'm extremely hurt you didn't text me on my bday. my mole was a pre-malig melanoma. I got it removed (9 stiches). you are acting like your done so maybe that's what should happen. it it's mutual..maybe we sigh papers next week."
All I responded with is “that is great news; I’m glad everything removed was ok”. She then asked me; “would you be willing to talk next week?”
Chris, your W is right on queue with the Friday night crazies.
So, umm ... Do not respond.
She's trying to frame it like the D will be on you if you don't respond. That's manipulative, it's low, and it's BS.
Got some late night calls from W; 4 of them. Did not answer. I know her friend is in town and they went out (meaning drinking)... Also received two texts:
“Ok Chris. Point made. We can end this.” - 1am
“Why are you not responding... if we you going to do this, we have to communicate. If you want to have an actual relationship- it’s fine. It makes me sad” - 2:30am
The 4 calls came in around 4 am.
Drunk texting is the worst. And those text will never matter, because she won't remember sending none of them or calling you.
So I messed up yesterday; was having a little to much fun with friends. Texted W;
Me: “Where are u”
W: “Why”
I got pre occupied, then 1:30 later
W: “Realy? wtf an I a booty call?”
Me: “I wanted to talk to you; but it was a mistake to text you in that way.”
She called right after that and I did not answer.
Man that’s embarrassing...
Ahhh yes! You already know you shouldn't have texted her in the first place. It's okay. Just notch it up as a mistake and don't do it again.
Do I need to do any damage control here. OR just chalk it up to a mistake. What about her asking if we can meet this week? Kinda lost right now after that mishap by me yesterday...
W just texted: "Why did you want to talk to me last night or about what".
Sandi; I am trying to get down to brass-tax right now with you; and please be as blunt as you would like. I am trying to determine the outcome of this situation.
1) she will get so fed up with me not responding and not communicating with her that she will continue with her guilt and blame as I am the one causing the D (like she has been doing).
2) she will get so fed up with me not responding to communicating with her that she will file.
3) she will snap out and come to me with a humble and extreme apology asking for forgiveness, etc.
4) I will eventually file.
What am I missing.
I am just confused due to the advise I am getting from my IC (reach out to her to fix M), and the overall natural advise on this board (LLRT-WW). It is hard to wrap my head around such different practices.
I'm getting sucked in....
W: "wow alight...really mature. I cant do this anymore"
Me: "i wanted to understand how this conversation would be any different that the one we had before"
W: " if your curious then you could make time or effort to talk to me and respond to me and you havnt. you really hurt my feeling on my bday too and cant even acknoledge it. I dont have anything left to say to you".
what am I doing.....I'm breaking right now...
W: "I'm trying to wrap my brain around the way you've been acting the last two months and cant so my only thought is your done and don't want to be married so that what I wanted to talk about. your lack of effort, responsiveness and thoughtfulness makes me believe that that's correct so i would like to have a convo so we can end things and sign papers."
W" "did it ever occur to you that for the last 7 weeks that i've just wanted to see you, talk to you and hang out with you to see if we could still savor this and find a way to get through this? And that there's not always a reason besides that. But you've left my no choice".
Chris......my W did that 1 month ago. Here was my response:
Just let me know what your schedule looks like so we can coordinate a meeting to sit down and discuss.
FYI.....she never responded and we have never discussed.
Remember you have to be willing to lose her if you will ever have a chance to get you back.
Just my 10 cents.
Basically blaming you for "not trying"?
No.....she wanted to move forward with D.
ME: "let me know what your sch looks like and we can cord something and discuss"
W: "discuss what"
W: "Am I printing our the papers we need"
Dude she is a manipulator.....I wouldn't respond to that BS. She is a big girl and doesn't need you tell her what to do. She is jacking with you.
You do need to block her asap.
She’s messing with you. She wants you on the hook as a firm plan B and your diminishing attachment is screwing that up for her. Think back through your M and your S. Anger and guilt have been what she uses to contro you. This is just more of the same.
Stay the course. Focus on YOU! Nothing you can say or do is going to improve things. Remember that you’re not the cheater. Remember that you’re not the one that wanted out. Remember that you’ve already told her you’d do ANYTHING to make this right. Why are you going to listen to her when she’s pretending that you’re the one who doesn’t want her?
What more proof do you need that you’re being lied to and manipulated?
Chris,
She is talking at this point. Has she seeked you out. Has she came knocking at your door. She hasn't, she knows if she threaten you, youbwilk get weak. Stay strong. Her words or weak, her actions are strong. Make her lead with her actions by not taking the bait with her words.
Dont respond to that printing papers out text. Its not worth your time.
Keep up the great work.
I am no Sandi, but here is my take on your options!
Sandi; I am trying to get down to brass-tax right now with you; and please be as blunt as you would like. I am trying to determine the outcome of this situation.
Don't try to determine the outcome of the situation. You don't know what's going to happen and you need to be okay and learn to thrive in the ambiguity. What you do know is going to happen is that you're becoming a better version of Chris and that's what's most important.
1) she will get so fed up with me not responding and not communicating with her that she will continue with her guilt and blame as I am the one causing the D (like she has been doing).
Classic manipulation. Let her put whatever blame she wants on you. She's deflecting. She's with OM and she's lying to you about it. Nothing about that is accountable for your side of the street.
2) she will get so fed up with me not responding to communicating with her that she will file.
That may be one outcome. There are other possibilities. If she files, let her file and do the work.
3) she will snap out and come to me with a humble and extreme apology asking for forgiveness, etc.
Maybe. But if her actions match her words and she shows remorse etc, then you can decide what to do. Right now it's a hypothetical, so don't worry about it.
4) I will eventually file.
That's totally okay too. Filing for D is a personal choice and there's tons on this board about why people have filed based on their circumstances. I am sure you can read up on it and make up your mind about what you want to do.
What am I missing.
Right now you need to keep NC/Dark and not fall for her manipulation and lies and guilt and control. Stop being afraid of her reactions. I know easier said then done, but I've done it and it's hugely liberating and empowering.
Just block her or find a way to not be in communication with her. She needs to show her worth by actions, not words.
I completely agree and understand all that you said...but for some reason I can’t freaking brake that train of thought...it’s so frustrating to myself. She’s treated me like such crap (losing, OM, etc)...like why WOULD I give her a time of day?!? I don’t let anyone else comtrol me this way (work, friends, family, strangers). She has this stupid hold on me.
I don't know how to help you get your head straight about why you allow her to treat you badly. Here's what I am concerned about for you. What makes you think she'll change? I think this was pretty much been her MO all along (before the affair, etc), and maybe you just made excuses and continued in your NGS. You said to be blunt, so.........I have little hope she'll treat you any differently. I
do have hope you can break away from her hold and have a good life without her........if you will not fall into the same trap with WW#2. But as for
this girl changing........I don't think it's going to be a "snap out" occurrence for her. She will need to learn some valuable relationship lessons. Her heart has to change, Chris, and it's obvious it hasn't. As long as she knows you are scared of filing for a D, I think she will be like a cat playing with a mouse.
Before I forget to mention about your IC, I think you need to stop using him as a MC. It only confuses you. He is giving terrible advice in what to do about your situation with a wayward W.
I really have nothing new or different to tell you. I wrote out a long post, then deleted it, b/c I have told you all that stuff previously. You have to drop her. If you don't dump her and walk away, she will never want you, and she'll continue to twist everything you say (and especially, don't say), and wrap you around her middle finger.
She really likes to guilt you, doesn't she? She guilted you for not recognizing her birthday.....and now, she's guilting you over a mole she had removed. What's next? This is how separation looks, sweetheart.
Actually, I thought you were doing much better, until you agreed to meet for a talk. Beware of any "talks" brefore Christmas). She is baiting you, and trying to get you to tell her you don't want a D. Well, don't tell her again. Instead, tell her she can think anything she wants, b/c you are done playing her games. Yep, that's what I'm saying. If you had told her that as soon as you found about her affair, she would have thrown herself at your feet. She won't
now......b/c she'll probably get pi$$ed and say, "Fine, if you are done, then I might as well file"! So what else is new? Another threat? Play the guilt card some more? Tell her to do whatever she wants. (She will anyway).
Look, it's just like I've said before........until she sees you are actually
dumping her, she is not going to change how she treats you. Will she file for a D? IDK, but what if she does? It may take a D for her heart to change.......or for you to break free of the unhealthy hold she has on you. If the girl
does change for the better........I suspect it may take years.
One thing I know about the kind of person she is........that as long as she can play you for a sap, she will not respect you as a man.
My son asked me once, "Why are some women drawn to men who treat them like cr@p"? My answer was, "B/c they think they've found a man who won't take
their cr@p".
((Chris)), I know you wanted to save your M. I honestly don't see it happening anytime soon. Maybe, after enough time has passes without having you in her life........she will mature and the two of you of might have a second chance. That is something you have to decide if it's worth it.
Sandi with the ever so needed 2x4.
Thank you for all of your help and wisdom. Everybody else too.
as i said in my thread, i am impressed with your willingness to delve into DBing... you may question the tactics, but you still do them--for the most part... have some success... and then you get scared...
you say you are confused because of the conflicting messages you are getting from your IC and here... but are you really confused? i think you really know that what your IC is telling you is not what you need to be doing... but your IC's way lets you be in touch with your WW, and that appeals to you... tugs at you...
don't do it...
if you did what your IC suggested, your WW would put you in a place you don't want to be... she would see you as "a friend," and/or she would pit you against OM... you would have to compete for her... and you would be at a disadvantage... she would tell you that she would have to "see" how things go between the two of you before she could commit, never intending to commit... then what?
then you are back to doing what you are already doing... NC... GAL... until she scoots your way again--manipulating you to bring you back into relationship talks... and the cycle repeats... don't do all that... from what i have seen, it takes most LBS several cycles before they full-on DB, if they ever get there...
however, you--Chris19--have not really cycled... you have had a couple of slip ups, but that's it... i think you are doing really well... don't let yourself get caught up in the cycle...
one more thing--since you have been posting here, your wife has mentioned printing out and signing "the papers"... exactly what papers is she talking about? do you definitely know?
thanks much--
ttfn--
artista
Hey Art; thanks for chiming in - I really appreciate your thoughts. I do agree...I go fro really understanding and developing great DB'ing habits...then I do get sucked into the fear of WW being mad at me, guilt-ing me, etc.
When she says papers, she is meaning dissolution papers. We have no children and no shared assets at the moment. So instead of doing a D, we will do a dissolution.
The unfortunate thing is, I did get sucked into a cycle here as we are meeting up on Thursday night. Now I know most of you will have negative thoughts/comments about me getting sucked into a R talk and meeting her (knowing she will have papers there); but it is happening.
So I ask you all, please give me some thoughts or words of advise for me because I am actually meeting up with her. Without expectations, what are some plans of attack here?
IF she actually shows up with papers (she might not, she's still trying to play with you) keep it short, take the copy she gives you, thank her for putting it together, tell her you'll get back to her after you've had time to look it over, and leave. Be upbeat the whole time (you can crash and cry later after you get out of there).
If she doesn't show up with papers? Just leave. You have somewhere else to be in your exciting life without her.
No R talks. At all. Do NOT reiterate that this isn't what you wanted. Be pleasant, then go.
So I ask you all, please give me some thoughts or words of advise for me because I am actually meeting up with her. Without expectations, what are some plans of attack here?
Plans of attack? Do you mean plan of action?
What is it you want, Chris? Are you ready to sign the papers? If not, then would she persue with a D? IDK, I am asking you.
If you do not want to sign papers, just tell her. Don't get into a R talk. Simply tell her you aren't ready. And if you
are ready.......do it.
Considering how she loves to tempt check you, it's difficult for me to believe she has any papers, or that she'll actually file them......unless she gets mad enough. I think she wants to taunt you......and that's her reason for the meeting. She may flash some papers and try to make it sound like it's what
you want. Don't let her get to you with her games. You are Fonzie Cool, sitting there and watching her performance........until you tire of it.
Your plan of action is to stay out of a R discussion with her. That is your main focus. If she starts putting words in your mouth, you don't have to reply......b/c it is how she plays the game. You can say,
once, something like, "You are free to think whatever you want. I am not here to argue or try to change your mind".
She knows what she has done wrong. Don't take responsibility for her failures. You can sit there listening to her cr@p, or you can leave (if you see she's not signed any papers). If she
has signed them...,...then it's your decision what to do. Sign them and walk away, or tell her you aren't ready, and walk away.
I don't want to sound as if I'm encouraging you to D. I just want you to know what you really want in your heart. I want to encourage you to examine your mind/heart as to why you really want her. Not what you wish she was.......but the real person you know her to be. I ask, as an outsider. Why do you love her? Can you see her changing? Do you see a dissolution of the M, as a personal failure? Would
that mindset cause you to cling to an unhealthy R? If you really want to keep this girl, in hopes that she might change........then don't sign the papers. Just be deeply honest with yourself. We are on your side. ((hugs))
FWIW, I don't know anything about legal dissolution of M, where one spouse refuses to sign. I don't know if it does any good to contest it. I suppose it might go before a Judge? IDK. Knowing your options, or if you have any, is the smart action.
What I want is to be happy with her; which blows, b/c it is not reality at the moment. So I guess me answer is; I do not want to give up yet.
I am not sure if she would file if I do not file... I am really unsure of anything she is doing/acting like these days; its saddening.
The flicker of hope does tell me she can change under the right circumstances; but it is just that, a flicker. I am becoming so clear headed now about how she has been treating me not just as of the BD, but the year leading up to the BD (when she started this affair). I was in such an unhealthy place before - which I can see now; and I can also see how it effected the R. I also see how she is responding to this whole situation, by using blame shifting, validation, dismissal, and lying; which lets me know she is still wayward and not in a healthy state.
I need to focus my energy and thoughts to a peaceful place, knowing I got to where I am; and now I just need to deal with it as an adult for my safety. If that means enforcing boundaries to a WW, so be it. But the life of being stuck in a R with a WW is absolutely worse than a life without the woman you used to love.
Ahhhh, which brings me back to my question for the 3rd time (completely understand if you don't want to answer)
Why do you think she ended the affair? Sense of duty? Catholic guilt? Because she missed you? Because she was sorry?
What was her reasoning?
Ahhhh, which brings me back to my question for the 3rd time (completely understand if you don't want to answer)
Why do you think she ended the affair? Sense of duty? Catholic guilt? Because she missed you? Because she was sorry?
What was her reasoning?
I sincerely apologize, this got posted to the wrong thread!!!
No prob Ginger; that's actually some good thoughts though, what thread are you posting that on?
Chris,
If you're not on the divorce train, then don't even meet with her. Make her do all the work and file. Time is your friend and not your enemy. You don't have kids to worry about, so it's not like this situation will affect them. Just do you, work on you, let HER push all of this along, and don't give her any ammo to make her want to.
When you are saying "No R talks"... what does that look like? How do you get past her asking directly, "what do you want", or "why haven't you been talking to me", those types of questions?
B/C I am not supposed to say I do not want a D again, or express my boundaries (about the OM) again. I am just having trouble compiling my thoughts on how to answer those types of questions.
How do you get past her asking directly, "what do you want", or "why haven't you been talking to me", those types of questions?
You look her dead in the eye and say "because you are cheating on me with another man". Then walk away.
she moved out on you, right? she is still in touch with OM... nothing has changed as far as your situation goes since she moved out on 9/1... what is there to talk about? the only thing that has changed--and this is significant--is you... you are not, for the most part, letting her manipulate you... she wants both worlds... she doesn't get to have that...
from the beginning of your posting here, in your very first thread, when she first got back in touch with you, she talked about filing, and how she was sorry it got to this point, and how it was best for the both of you--you deserve the world... and look, 4 months later--she is still trying to manipulate you withe "filing the papers." it's ridiculous, Chris... you do deserve the world... but she doesn't really think that... that sentiment was disingenuous... what she wants is two worlds... one as a single woman, and the other--not as your wife--but you as her husband...
even when she agreed to stop following OM on FB, her attitude was gross... something like, "okay then, i deleted him... (are you happy now???)" like she is doing you a favor... and you let her get away with that... you let her treat it so lightly, mockingly... that's BS...
and she insults your intelligence by thinking she can get back in your favor while still staying connected to OM... she does not think very highly of you... she doesn't want what is best for you... she wants what she wants... in her world, she is the sun, and the world revolves around her... YOU, Chris, revolve around her... that's what she is used to, that is what she wants back... in essence, this is all temp-checking on her part... does she still have you where she wants you... that is what today is about...
so does she? if you refuse to be that guy, then don't be that guy... don't let her rule you... be you--in the moment... and in the moment--you are not the Chris from the old, dead marriage... you are the Chris who is someone only a fool would leave...
artista
and what LH19 said... that's it...
I'm in agreement with what LH19 said as well!!!
B/C I am not supposed to say I do not want a D again, or express my boundaries (about the OM) again. I am just having trouble compiling my thoughts on how to answer those types of questions.
She already knows where you stand, Chris. I don't understand why this causes so much fear that you feel you don't even know what to say to her. She is the one who wanted to "talk", so let her talk. (As long as she doesn't start dumping b.s. on you). Why are you worried about what
you should say?
What's to say in a R talk that hasn't already been said? How does it look not to have a R talk? Seriously?
Maybe one word you did not use enough with her was, "No". Try that out.
Well that was interesting to say the least.
I got there and she started by small talking...asking me questions about my fam and how everyone was. I answered, but kept it short. Then some of the first words out of her moth was, "I didn't print off the papers, I was really busy at work"...
Again; it is so hard to paraphrase a conversation; but she expressed how she kept reaching out to me and I just never responded, or was short with her. So she is "trying" but I am not. I then explained how I am going through my process and part of that process was to ensure my safety, and her texts to me (when I would not respond) were all blame shifting, validation, and guilt tripping.
She explained how she didn't do more because she was still so hurt by my actions (b4 the BD). And I validated that; telling her of course, those emotions are valid, there was evidence that I was not a complete person. Then she asked why I came; and I said, I am not sure, I guess I wanted to express my boundaries in case they were not clear. I told her, part of my recovery was to get total transparency and no not be competing with OM.
Then she said, I told you when I was done talking to OM back in september. So I asked, "so ,you havint talked to him since"...pause..."I talked to him on my birthday". Now, I know shes lying to me. Then I asked, "how can I believe you, show me your phone records". She was like, "No, I am not going to do that".
I then got a bit to deep; and explained, "I am not going to be with somebody who didn't choose me; who would want to be with someone who doesn't choose them. I have such clarity now, and I see that I was total dependent on you for me feelings. That is not a healthy mentality for any relationship. And again, I will never tell you what to do, I am simply telling you want I need in order to think about reconciliation."
She began to tear up; and said "did you ever think that I am so hurt by your action, before all this". kind of went in circles... Again, I validated those...same as above. Then I said, ok if your serious show me your phone records, she said, I am not going to do that. That is when I got angry (i know...dumb); stood up and said, "its because you are still talking to him", grabbed me coat and said " i knew coming here was a mistake". Left
Called me twice on the way home. and texted"
- giving an ultimatum like that in a middle of a convo is extremely immature; i understand I have to rebuild trust and would be willing to do that but I will not deal with you giving me ultimatums and treating me like sh!t if I don't want to oblige to them.
I texted back "I never gave you an untilm. I simply told you what I needed in orddr to think about reconcilation. from the first day I told you I would never tell you what to do or what to think. you have the ability to choose anything you like. This is just a part of my recovery, you do not have to do anything as i explaned.
She sent:
"i told you I would be willing show you my records and then you left in the middle of the convo."
"So are you dont talking again?"
"alright chirs I really cant do this anymore"
"i wanted to see you tonight to just hang out for once, and talk, and try to be close and see if there was till something there. I didnt want to get too much into anything bc i wanted to just have a night to try to be normal. We are both recovering and im so updet you just left like that bc i didnt show you my phone on demand. i dont know if there is anything repairable. you havnt been able to stay calm around me and you seem to always leave in anger an din a rush without just allowing the convo to evelop and happen."
"Were both hurt and angry and trying to recover and its going to take pateince , respect, and understanding to move forward. i dont feel that from u for me. I dont feel that you love me anymore. and if that is the case then thats ok thats your choice but then please just say you want to end this."
"Are you willing to come back and finish our convo?"
Does anyone here really have to point out the manipulation?
The lack of respect is not from you toward her it’s from her toward you. NC. Stop taking the bait.
WW: "B/C I still dotn understnad what you need... for me to show phone rrecords? to go to M/C? i honestly dont know"
WW: "To choose you?"
Chris, it's hard to translate the nuances of a conversation into posts, but if you're sure she's lying about still being in contact with OM, you did right by leaving. Don't fall for her bull.
A couple more messages from W came in last night.
“ Im trying to be patient here but it is getting to the point that I do not even recognize you anymore.. I do not know who you are, or how to help and I’ve tried to just give you space bc that’s what it seems like you want bc I don’t know what else to do. I’m sorry if I’m not doing the things you want but I haven’t been able to have a complete convo w/you to understand what you need/want. I thought we would finally have that opportunity 2ngt and it was cut short. I do not know what else to do and will stop reaching out”
Then she mentions how no matter what I thought our wedding day was the best and happiest day of her life.
C,
She’s trying to manipulate and control you and it’s not working and it’s driving her fuching crazy.
Amazing how she turns it all around. If someone had not read the former threads, they'd swear she was the LBW pleading with her WAH. It seems incredibly important to her that Chris says he wants the D first. IDK if it's to take the monkey off her back, or what she'll tell her family & friends. Kind of strange how she applies pressure for him to take the initiative on the papers, etc. I can't think of any other reason, other than she thinks she comes through smelling like a rose.
as soon as she gets her phone cleaned, she'll offer to let you see it.
Chris I actually think you did a pretty good job. I bet it i the frist time your W has seen you respond like that and just walk out. Also notice that she did not bring the D papers and gave you some lame response. I would also point out that she did not want to show you her phone which proably would have proved that she was still in contact with OM.
I agree with everyone else, she is trying to manipulate you and get some personal satisfaction of knowing that you are still on the hook. Continue to hold the line with you boundary of no communication unless OM is out of the picture and you have proof or until you get tired and are ready to file yourself.
All in all nice work in my opinion.
Chris, I agree with Joseph, I don't see anything you did or said wrong in that convo. I actually think you did quite well! You stood up to her, and when she kept trying to manipulate you into feeling like you are the one doing something wrong then you stood your ground and walked away rather than let it escalate into a fight. The right thing to do at this point is STOP CONTACT. Let her think about all that and throw her little temper tantrums by text, you've got better things to do than get drawn into it.
I also agree with Sandi, as soon as you left she got about the business of cleaning up that phone, LOL! "Sure you can see it in just sec..." (delete delete delete)
Thank you all for the support.
I forgot to mention, at one point during the convo, I did use the phrase "b/c you are cheating on me with another person"... I can tell she was taking back by that.
It seems incredibly important to her that Chris says he wants the D first.
This is accurate, during the convo she was saying things like; well your just staying in this moment, and waiting for me to make the decision so you don't have to make the decision. (this is speaking to D of course).
Just got Text:
"Nothing?"
"I was hoping to move forward and come up w/a game plan or get closure...for both of us. Chris I will not sit here and try to communicate and work thruough things w/no response. I dont know what to do; r u around this w/e? I can print the paperwork off to sign adn be done with this. I guess there is still a few things we need to decide like if I owe you money, and what to do with certain physical gifts we got for our wedding."
Am I going to miss a window to recon?
No...she doesn't want to recon. It doesn't sound like to me her mind has changed. I don't get the sense that she has shown true remorse for any of her actions.
If you don't want to file yourself and be done with these high school games then continue to enforce your boundary of NC while OM is in the picture and block her phone calls like Sandi suggested.
She was hoping to move forward and you were hoping she would move forward as well with removing OM from the picture.
Don't you see how much she is trying to make you out to be the bad guy?