Link to previous thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...t=11&page=1 RECAP: BD (ILYBINILWY) in April, 2017. Started DB'ing about a month later. STBXW said she wanted to D on 7-13, and her L filed 4 days later. I got a L soon after. We've told the kids (the worst experience of my life), she's moved out of the MBR, but is still living in the same house. Both L's are talking and mediation is going to be scheduled soon. This MR is dead and I need to get out to reboot my life.
I've been dealing with my NGS issues and standing up to STBXW. As a result she's growing increasingly antagonistic. She rages, argues, and throws fits, sometimes in front of the kids. In-house separation is hell.
Dear STBXW,
19 years ago today, we stood on the alter in front of all our family members and friends, and were married. It was a beautiful ceremony and a great reception. We built a life, had 2 boys, moved, and dealt with life's issues as best we could. In the end, it wasn't enough for you. It was never good enough for you.
We're not D yet, but whatever we used to have between us is gone. The years - all the good times and the bad - are fading away like they almost never happened. All I have is 2 kids to show for it, and a pile of debt. I've also gained a lot of self awareness, but at great cost. And I'll have to see your face, which reminds me of all we lost, for the rest of my life.
Yesterday I offered you a ride to church (you can't drive yourself due to the knee surgery). You accepted. Before we left, I asked S14 to get ready, and he said he didn't want to go. I told him it was his decision, although I wanted him to come. When you found out, you yelled at him and then blamed me. We left him home and brought S10. In the car you told me I made a promise to God to raise him Catholic, and I needed to make him go to church whether he wanted to or not. I told you not to talk to me about promises to God.
At church I dropped you off by the door so you didn't have to walk far with your crutches. I sat with you and S10, because S10 asked me to. I wasn't as uncomfortable as I thought I would be. S10 seemed to really enjoy being there with us, sitting between us and holding both our hands. I hope the poor guy didn't get his hopes up. I shook your hand at the sign of peace. Afterwards I got the car and picked you up by the door. I don't think you ever thanked me for the ride.
When we got home you wanted to talk to me in the MBR. You blamed me for S14 not wanting to go to church. I agreed it's important for him to go, but I refuse to force him at his age. You wanted to talk about finances. You want me to pay all the bills for December, because you don't feel like being bothered with it any more, and you say you'll just write me a check to cover your half. I said I didn't want to do that b/c I don't think you'd pay me back. You got mad and asked why. I said I didn't trust you. You told me "F*ck you!" I said the conversation was over and walked out of the room.
I didn't see you again until later in the evening. You asked me if I feel like Divorce Care is helping me. I told you I didn't want to talk about it. You got annoyed and said you were just trying to have a conversation. I reminded you that you told me to f*ck myself in our last convo. You said "For someone who doesn't want to be D, you sure don't act like it." I said I wanted the D now. You asked why, and I said it just wasn't healthy for us any more. You asked me how long I felt that way. I told you there was nothing more to discuss, and I walked out the room.
This morning when I got dressed I thought about wearing a black shirt. I decided I wasn't going to let this D ruin my day. I wore a colorful and cheery shirt.
I didn't see you when I left the house. I'm glad. You'll be home all day, and if you need anything, a friend will have to get it for you. I will not be texting you or calling you today.
We had a pretty good run considering, and now it's over.
Btrow, I wasn't able to find any of LCR's threads
I can find only one post/thread
here
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...73262#Post73262
WHOA!!! Dday's story is bananas! I'm just floored that they got into piecing after what he went through with his W.
WHOA!!! Dday's story is bananas! I'm just floored that they got into piecing after what he went through with his W.
Dday`s story is the best! I´ve read it twice! Like there is no plus ultra after that!
Yeah, for anyone who wants a great read, I highly recommend Dday's story. It's crazy! (And before anyone asks, no, I don't see that happening for my sitch.)
Anyway, Monday (our anniversary) went by without either of us talking, texting, or even looking at each other. I think that was the best possible outcome.
This morning STBXW asked me for a ride to work so she wouldn't have to drop money on an Uber. The thought of it did make me uncomfortable, and the memory of her telling me "F*ck you" from Sunday after church is still pretty raw. But I'm trying to play nice with her, not because I'm trying to nice her back, but because being a raging a-hole is not who I want to be. I told her she could have a ride, as long as she didn't cause any trouble. She acted offended and said she's not the one who does that. (Insert forthcoming 2x4 here. But remember I'm not trying to save my M any more.)
After waiting about 10 minutes for her, I knocked on her door. She said that she was getting an Uber and that she sent me a text. So I left.
As I was driving away, the text came through (my cell signal in the house is cr@p). She said what I said to her was rude and hurtful. She said I'm to blame for the arguments just as much as her. She said she'll no longer offer me an olive branch, and she'll only communicate with me via text and email.
The text left me feeling kind of empty inside. I didn't reply. Not sure what I'm looking for from y'all. I guess I'm just journaling to get this off my chest.
(Anyone else notice this place seems to have slowed down lately?)
Well H, not something I would say but that is the wonderful things about this world! Looking back are you glad you said what you said? Do you regret it? My W and I didn't speak on our anniversary either. It was kind of weird but I wasn't going to give in and make myself look weak. IMO the right move.
It has slowed down some, I think business picks up during the Summer. Maybe it is easier to drop the bomb then because the kids are out of school
For me I am just about 6 months in and I really don't have much to talk about in my sitch. I post for my own benefit so I can follow my journey but there is really no movement so things are stagnant.
Looking back are you glad you said what you said? Do you regret it?
I do wish I would've handled it better. But I honestly can't think of what I could've said. Maybe just "I don't think that's a good idea".
Welcome to the 6th month club!
(Anyone else notice this place seems to have slowed down lately?)
I noticed that as well. Maybe everyone is waiting until after the holidays to drop the bomb.
I suppose you could have just gave her a ride. My MIL accused me of sexually abusing my oldest and my W kicked her out of the house. My W then asked me if I would drive her to the airport which I did. I never said a word.
LOL....yeah the 6th month club. How time flies!
When it comes to STBXW, I think I need to just repeat over and over in my head "SHUT YOUR MOUTH. SHUT YOUR MOUTH. SHUT YOUR MOUTH." Oddly, having given up all hope of saving the M has made me more relaxed around her and more prone to just say what's on my mind. I need to keep it to yes/no answers as much as possible.
6 months, yeah. One day this will all be over and we'll have a different life, full of new things to hope for. I try to imagine that future me and what he'd say: "It'll get better. You'll be happy. Hang in there and keep trying to do the right thing."
I have a lot of respect for those who can DB and stand for their M for years. Maybe I'm too prideful to do that.
I noticed that as well. Maybe everyone is waiting until after the holidays to drop the bomb.
You are probably right. I wasnt really BD'ed. It was a bit more me dragging the bomb onto my face. XW clearly wanted to wait till after Christmas (1 year anniversary next week). I am sure of that as she asked to wait till after Christmas to tell the kids (I demanded she told them the next day as I couldn't continue living with that ghostzombie). So January will probably be busy here. Unfortunately.
Well I might feel different in another 6 months. I also have no proof there is OM and if there is she not flaunting it in front of my face or introducing him to my kids. If/when that happens I am out. That aspect does make it easier for me to handle.
I agree less is more, better to keep your mouth shut. Your kids are young, you guys will be in each other's lives for a long time to come. It would be much easier to handle if you are civil towards each other.
I don't know if I can stand for years. I just take it a day at a time, doing things for me, moving on with my life and approaching it like we are divorced. Even if I was D'd I wouldn't be dating yet so I am really not doing anything different right now vs if my D was final.
Us technically being married still lingers in the back of mind but that light is very dim.
I noticed that as well. Maybe everyone is waiting until after the holidays to drop the bomb.
You are probably right. I wasnt really BD'ed. It was a bit more me dragging the bomb onto my face. XW clearly wanted to wait till after Christmas (1 year anniversary next week). I am sure of that as she asked to wait till after Christmas to tell the kids (I demanded she told them the next day as I couldn't continue living with that ghostzombie). So January will probably be busy here. Unfortunately.
Yep. I wonder if will see things spike up a little after Thanksgiving.
I just take it a day at a time, doing things for me, moving on with my life and approaching it like we are divorced. Even if I was D'd I wouldn't be dating yet so I am really not doing anything different right now vs if my D was final.
Good attitude!
Btrow and Doodler, I see what you guys did there ...
I have a lot of respect for those who can DB and stand for their M for years. Maybe I'm too prideful to do that.
IMO your fooling yourself. You are mad at yourself for not being done, but your'e not done. That's why you still get into these tussles with her. You wouldn't if you didn't care.
It's ok to not be done but stop trying to convince yourself and us that you are.
Dig down deep and figure out why after all she put you through that you are still not done.
She said she'll no longer offer me an olive branch, and she'll only communicate with me via text and email.
So what was the olive branch? "I'll allow you to drive me to work so I can save cab fare?"
LH, it's possible I'm fooling myself. The fact that I might be is actually pretty troubling. Why would I do that? What am I trying to hide from myself and why? Am I ashamed of myself?
You've commented on this several times with me, so please help me understand what you're seeing. Can you help me unravel this?
The M is dead. I don't see myself in a future R with STBXW. There's a fantasy version of my M, which I created in my head after BD. I'd like to get THAT M back, but it never really existed. As time's moved on, I've seen a staggering amount of selfishness, insensitivity, narcissism, and deception from STBXW. She's not a person I enjoy being around at all. She's not the person I thought she was. She's not a good person.
I miss the feeling of being in a committed R. I miss feeling like I had a future, like my life was on track. I'm afraid of the change this D will bring. I want my kids to have an intact family and not have to suffer the pain of D.
All of the reasons I could possibly have to keep this M are situational (stability and comfort in life for the kids and me). All of the reasons I have to abandon this M are because of STBXW and who she is.
This D has been crippling for my self esteem. I feel like there are two versions of myself here. My M is a burning building and there's the utterly destroyed me, lying on the floor in a heap. Then there's another person there picking me up off the floor, telling me I have to get out of here to save myself.
You said I'm still not done. You mention the tussles I get in with her. Does the fact that she makes me mad mean that I'm not done? If she accuses me of something and I stand up for myself, does that mean I'm not done?
She's held the reins in my life for a long time, and she's upset that she's not going to be holding them any more. I'm trying to break free from her control and kill my NGS. TBH, I do enjoy showing her that I'm standing up for myself. I do enjoy it when I can show her I won't be intimidated by her. Does that mean I'm not done?
For me, being done means there's nothing left to save, and I can move on mentally. Does being done mean being over this? If it does, then yes, I'll admit I'm not over this yet.
So what was the olive branch? "I'll allow you to drive me to work so I can save cab fare?"
Yeah, when I read that, my first thought was "This is the crappiest olive branch I've ever seen! I can't wait to see what the rest looks like."
My takeaway is that my STBXW is a bitter, spiteful person. She knows that about herself, and she's warning (threatening?) me that the real her is about to come out to play. She wants it to be my fault that she's about to unleash the real her.
My takeaway is that my STBXW is a bitter, spiteful person.
Is that her love language?
You've commented on this several times with me, so please help me understand what you're seeing. Can you help me unravel this?
I would love to help you. That's why I come to this board.
I can't place my finger on it, but when I read your posts I always get the sense your trying hard to convince me your done. I don't get that sense from everyone else.
I have an opinion based on three years of reading why you are in the situation you are in if you would like to hear it.
LH, yes! I'd love to hear your opinion.
Holding my man, you're not quite 7 months since BD. You are starting to come out of the BD fog, starting to grasp that reconciling isn't the ONLY solution, and wrapping your head around the possibility of D and what life after that might be like. But please brother, don't rush into it. You are doing the exact same thing I did at that point in time in my sitch. I convinced myself I was done and moving on. 6 months later I looked back and laughed at how naive I was about it. Then 6 months after that I looked back and laughed at how naive I was at the 1 year mark. Those of us that were married a long time, it takes us a long time to unwind from that and get comfortable with our "new normal". You don't just wake up one day and you're there. "Dropping the rope" is frankly a poor analogy because none of us drop it. We loosen our grip, we let it slowly and gently slide out of our hands and onto the floor, when we get to the end we lower it oh so gently, set it down, lift our hand away gradually, and then we walk away from it. You're loosening your grip but you've got a long way to go, just be patient with yourself and try to be honest with yourself too. I know you're probably thinking "oh but AS I know I'm done!" and I would have said the same thing too. But I wasn't, and it took me a long time later before I realized I wasn't. When you truly are done then you know it in your heart and you don't feel obliged to tell everyone you're done. When you're telling everyone you are, you're really trying to convince yourself.
I can't place my finger on it, but when I read your posts I always get the sense your trying hard to convince me your done.
Heh! I made my post before reading this, but yes, we are on the same page there! I think it's kind of normal at the 6 month to 1 year mark though. I see a lot of others here (men in particular) go through it, and like I posted, I did too.
This is just my opinion based on my readings and what you have posted.
Your wife had to take on the role as the leader in the home and she did not like it.
I know you think she likes to be in charge, but she does not. Most women want the man to take charge and be the leader in the family. She wants to know that he can protect and take care of her so she feels safe. When she feels safe she opens up to him emotionally and sexually.
When the man does not step up and take charge she becomes bitchy and unavailable emotionally and sexually, basically telling him to step up and be a man. After awhile she gives up and she has to become the leader and that changes the polarity of the relationship.
Now when a woman is acting like a man and her natural essence is feminine and a man is acting like a woman and his natural essence is masculine, there can be no sexual chemistry.
For example, you two are having a disagreement and you go and and lock yourself in the bedroom. Wouldn't you say she was acting more like the man and you the woman?
I have studied this for over two years and it is just my opinion. Maybe something to look into Google masculine and feminine energy .
I don't know that this has anything to do with what the previous posters see, but I'll throw in my two cents. Just for the record, though, I think you are on your way to getting there.
I think men who have the NGS have to get to that point where they don't care what their WW thinks about what he says, how he says it, or how it makes her feel. He just plain don't care.........and he shows that he doesn't care. Enough is enough. He's had it.
If you really are done, then why didn't you look at her and say, "Are you talking to me"? "The guy you told to "F'ck off"? "You want me to give you a ride"?
On second thought......that's too many words. Maybe just use sign language to relate the message.
But being the NG that you are, you will find a logical sounding excuse of how there's no reason to get ugly; or it will make matters worse; or you will take the higher ground; or that's not who you want to be;.......or whatever. Push past all the logical sounding stuff and ask yourself why are you nice to someone who told you to f'ck yourself.
Here's the thing, Holding. This is why your W has lost respect for you. B/c she can talk to you like you are worthless.......and she gets away with it. B/c she can treat you like sh't and you continue being a nice guy to her. That's how this all started. Women like your W (and me) have to realize they've met their match in their own H's. She has to know her H is fed up and he will not take a grain more from her. The nice guy is gone.
((hugs))
H
On a personal level I am coming up to the 1 year mark and only now "appear" to see the wood from the trees. I have seen q a few pointers towards to a full PA recently but I seemingly don't care? It was certainly the case during the summer that I was thinking "OK let's get the anniversary party and then the vacation out of the way and then I'll act because I am essentially done". But now I barely think long term (unless she ****s up big time and makes a deal breaker level mistake, well that will be something different altogether). I know I am trying to mentally detach whilst everyone still lives here so maybe that's my way of blocking things out but whenever I get a hint of a mind movie now I just think "no, that's her and her affair, nothing to do with me". Maybe that's just my way of handling things (and I have the BD anniversary to come) and I am def a NG (with teeth when necessary!) but who knows what is the mind and what is the psyche? Hmm, time to get out the Nietzsche!
Once again, everyone here has given me a lot to think about. I appreciate it.
AS, thanks. So I'm making all the same mistakes everyone else has made? I guess that's comforting.
But seriously, what do you think I should be doing differently? Other than admitting that maybe I'm not as done as I tell myself?
LH, thanks for sharing that. I agree with you. That was the dynamic in our M, with my STBXW mostly in the typical "man" role (working a lot, focus on outdoor activities), and me in the typical "woman" role (geared more toward running the household and looking after the kids). But she was not as "feminine" as you'd imagine. A good word to sum her up is "bossy". In any case, I'll be working to assert my masculinity in future R's. As for the current (dead) M, I think the ship has sailed and it's too late to repair the damage. But I am trying to stand up to her.
Sandi, thanks. So you think I wasn't direct enough. OK. I'm trying to kill the NG. I guess I need to double-down on that. You're right that I make excuses and try to rationalize a soft approach, and I'll try to push past the logic. Yes, she treats me like I'm worthless. I need to remember that.
CW, thanks for sharing your perspective coming up on a year. You mention deal breakers. What would those be? Once my STBXW said she wanted a D, it pushed me into a different mindset (intense anger) and really made it hard for me to DB any more. That's when I first started saying I was done. That's when I stopped hoping. Looking back (3 months ago), I still had some issues to work out, but I really did start the process of being done at that point. If she hadn't said she wanted to D back then, I honestly don't know if I'd still be trying to save things.
Honestly, all this was so much easier when I still had my intense anger.
Holding,
You may want to get an old tractor magneto and run a couple of electrodes from the magneto to each of your testicles. Then you spin the magneto and shock the sh*t out of yourself. It won't make you more manly, in fact, you may be flaccid for a few days, but it will take your mind off of other things.
And, by the way, I like miso soup.
Holding,
Glad I could help and give you something to think about. This is hard $hit but when the dust settles you’ll be a better person for it.
Btw I think you give excellent advice on other threads.
Doodler, are you off your meds again? I hear they're looking for you in the MLC forum.
Btw I think you give excellent advice on other threads.
High praise indeed. Thanks!
Doodler is definitely off his meds again...LOL
Hmm. Deal breakers? No idea but presumably something so glaringly obvious that she can't get out of what is discovered with lies and manipulation.
Doodler, are you off your meds again? I hear they're looking for you in the MLC forum.
Sorry. I was going a little nuts.
I tried the MLC forum, but they booted me out. I guess I chose the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.
I guess I chose the wrong week to stop sniffing glue
Surely you can't be serious?
EastTN,
I am serious and don't call me Shirley.
Well.....hopefully you didn't have the fish for dinner.
I had the lasagna, but I did sample some of Holdings fish while he wasn't looking. Do I need to go to the hospital?
Well illness is very serious, you will start with a slight fever and then it will go to work on your central nervous system. I think severe muscle spasms will ensue followed by uncontrollable drooling. I would recommend it.
STOP!!!!!!!
It is a big building with patients but that not important right now.............
The smiley face looks suspiciously like the autopilot. What's going on?
AS, thanks. So I'm making all the same mistakes everyone else has made? I guess that's comforting.
But seriously, what do you think I should be doing differently? Other than admitting that maybe I'm not as done as I tell myself?
LOL! Obviously I wasn't clear enough on what I was trying to convey
All I meant was it takes us a long time to sort out our feelings, to get over BD and to move on. Usually we go through a stage where we -think- we're done but we're really not just yet. I think you're doing fine and I'm not saying to do anything differently, I'm just saying don't make any immediate decisions based on being "done" (like push through D) right now because I think you still need a few months before you know whether you really are done. If you consistently think you're done for 2 or 3 months and you never waver from that, well then I'd say you really are done. But if you keep going back and forth then you're not quite there yet.
As a side note, WAS's and LBS's both have this feeling that D will make them "feel differently" about things. Like if they're not sure, D will somehow bring them closure. But D doesn't work that way.
Thanks for the humor! Y'all really had me going this morning with all the Airplane references.
I'm just saying don't make any immediate decisions based on being "done" (like push through D) right now because I think you still need a few months before you know whether you really are done. If you consistently think you're done for 2 or 3 months and you never waver from that, well then I'd say you really are done. But if you keep going back and forth then you're not quite there yet.
Regarding making immediate decisions and pushing through the D, I don't think I have any choice on that front. STBXW is pushing the case through, full steam ahead, and wants to get things settled so she can move out ASAP, hopefully by the end of the year. We will have mediation soon, and I need to get legally aggressive in order to stand up for my rights and come out of this fairly. STBXW has no intention of playing fairly with assets and debts. It's lawyering time!
On a related note, I just found out how much STBXW has in her retirement accounts. HOLY CR@P is she $crewed!
I tried to give this MR a chance. I put in my time to (foolishly) win her back. I think I did everything I realistically should have to show her that I didn't want this D. Maybe that drove her away. But I know her. She'll live with this doubt for the rest of her life. She'll put on a happy face for everyone, and maybe even remarry. But when she's lying in bed at night and she can't sleep, the doubt will crush her. She'll probably never tell me. My time of doubting myself is over. Hers is just beginning.
As a side note, WAS's and LBS's both have this feeling that D will make them "feel differently" about things. Like if they're not sure, D will somehow bring them closure. But D doesn't work that way.
Interesting. I know D won't solve the issues between us. But it will allow my guilty Catholic conscience to finally move on with my life. I won't be married in the eyes of God, and I'll feel free to pursue other R's, in due time. I'll still be a father, and I'll still have to set a good example for my boys. I have a lot of growing to do and I need to stop putting mental energy into this dead M (including the D).
I know it'll take me a while to heal and get over the D. I know I'll grieve and have some rough spots. I'll feel like an empty shell, and I'll have to re-discover who I am in order to refill myself. But for me, done means not trying to save things any more. I don't see myself looking back and saying, "I should have tried for longer."
But who knows? It's possible I'm fooling myself.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines.
The sh*t's gonna hit the fan.
It's a big white building where sick people go, but that's not important right now.
Hey, aren't you Kareem Abdul Jabbar?
LOL, re: my previous post.... guess I joined the bandwagon too late!
All I meant was it takes us a long time to sort out our feelings, to get over BD and to move on. Usually we go through a stage where we -think- we're done but we're really not just yet. I think you're doing fine and I'm not saying to do anything differently, I'm just saying don't make any immediate decisions based on being "done" (like push through D) right now because I think you still need a few months before you know whether you really are done. If you consistently think you're done for 2 or 3 months and you never waver from that, well then I'd say you really are done. But if you keep going back and forth then you're not quite there yet.
This was very timely for me, 'cause I have had trouble distancing myself from the MR and WAW, but recent events have me thinking "I'm done." I guess instead of calling my lawyer and pushing the divorce forward, I'll give it a little longer.
Jim, if your WAW is not pushing the D forward, I'd say give it some time. Wait until you're really ready. Be grateful you have the gift of time to really work this out for yourself.
Been meaning to ask, does anyone here speak Jive?
Regarding making immediate decisions and pushing through the D, I don't think I have any choice on that front. STBXW is pushing the case through, full steam ahead, and wants to get things settled so she can move out ASAP, hopefully by the end of the year.
I wasn't saying you were pushing D through, I was just trying to give an example. I think a lot of times people make rash decisions based on the fact that they think they are done, things like push D through or start dating or burn bridges with their spouse. I'm just saying to anyone reading that once you think you're done, give yourself some more time to make sure you really are done.
We will have mediation soon, and I need to get legally aggressive in order to stand up for my rights and come out of this fairly. STBXW has no intention of playing fairly with assets and debts. It's lawyering time!
Completely agree with you. Since she's pushing things through then you need to be prepared.
On a related note, I just found out how much STBXW has in her retirement accounts. HOLY CR@P is she $crewed!
I'm not sure whether you mean she has a lot or hardly anything, LOL!
I know it'll take me a while to heal and get over the D. I know I'll grieve and have some rough spots. I'll feel like an empty shell, and I'll have to re-discover who I am in order to refill myself.
You might be surprised. I think what we go through for the first 6 months after BD is the worst of it. After that we start the rebuilding process. Usually by the time most of us are facing D it's really just a formality. Granted D was nearly 2 years post BD for me, but after D I did not feel any differently other than just being relieved it was all over. I never had any rough spots or rediscovery needs after D.
This was very timely for me, 'cause I have had trouble distancing myself from the MR and WAW, but recent events have me thinking "I'm done." I guess instead of calling my lawyer and pushing the divorce forward, I'll give it a little longer.
Good! You've got plenty of time, just give yourself a little to really make sure you're ready.
Here is another success story to read, for anyone interested. The poster's name is Squiggy. He had a WW in an A, and they had a physical separation. Last I heard, they had reconciled and doing good. Should be encouraging to read.
Here's the link:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...632#Post2526632
Thanks for the link, Sandi. I'll have to check that out.
So I had a good GAL weekend - took S14 on a youth hunt Friday through Sunday. We had a really good time and he got a buck! This was my first time hunting (my dad was not an outdoorsman). It was a great experience, and I tried to spend the time just talking with S14 about his interests. We didn't talk about the D at all. There was no cell service out where we were, so I had a few days free from STBXW's influence. It was nice.
Laying in my sleeping bag Friday night before the hunt, I did have a few rough moments remembering all the past times I've camped with STBXW and the boys. She treated me like cr@p, but I still miss those times.
Anyway, yesterday she was on the phone in the living room and I heard her mention that she's planning to get plastic surgery next August. I've known this was something she wanted after she lost her weight, so it wasn't a real surprise. She asked the person on the phone (one of her girlfriends I believe) if they would take care of her after the surgery. Then she said something like, "Yeah, I'm not doing this for anyone else. I'm doing this for me."
That got me thinking again, what if there is no OM? What if having no one is preferable to having me? That thought hurt. Being dumped because someone better (in her eyes) came along is one thing. But being dumped because she just can't stand me any more and would prefer solitude, that hurts.
I wonder if I've tried to convince myself there's an OM to lessen the pain. I wonder if she's trying to get me to think there's no OM, and I'm falling into her trap.
Regardless, she's a selfish and shallow person. Every exchange I have with her (which are almost all text and email now) is filled with her bitterness, snark, and anger.
Living in this in-house separation makes it so hard to get away from her mental cloud. No matter what GAL and work I do for myself, I still have to come back home and see her in the house.
Advice is welcome.
That got me thinking again, what if there is no OM? What if having no one is preferable to having me? That thought hurt. Being dumped because someone better (in her eyes) came along is one thing. But being dumped because she just can't stand me any more and would prefer solitude, that hurts.
Holding,
There may be another possibility.
My XW can be a very harsh and difficult woman, but I know she's not completely heartless. Over the years she often expressed that she was happy and amazed that I'd put up with her. I actually didn't mind because I knew what she'd been through as a child and young adult. However, I've often wondered if she felt like she was too much of a burden for me and decided to take the opportunity to make an exit. I don't know and I will likely never know if there's any truth to that.
Anyway, I think it may be in the realm of possibility that your wife has some guilt over the way she treats you and the children. My XW very well knew that she often wasn't pleasant, but she didn't seem to have the ability to control her emotions. Part of your wife's issue may be that she doesn't want you to continue to be shackled by her behavior.
I know that's a shot in the dark, but the main point I'd like to make is that your wife's motives may not be entirely what you think they are. She may not even know exactly what's driving her.
There's a quote I heard recently, about someone who'd had an "awakening" (whatever that may be), "After my awakening, I found myself in the same prison cell (metaphorically speaking), but I realized that the lock was on the inside." Your wife may be trying to escape an imaginary prison cell, and it may not have much to do with you, but all she can think about right now is escaping.
Your wife may be trying to escape an imaginary prison cell, and it may not have much to do with you, but all she can think about right now is escaping.
My WAW was very unhappy, and, of course, I was the cause of all her unhappiness. So she moved out and filed for divorce.
Amazingly enough, here we are 8 months after she moved out, and she told me a few days ago that she had to see a doctor because she need anti-depressants and was having trouble "coping". Why would she need anti-depressants? I was the cause of all her unhappiness, and she got rid of me. It should all be rainbows and unicorns from here on out for her.
Maybe it didn't have anything to do with me, but maybe she just thought it did......
Over the years she often expressed that she was happy and amazed that I'd put up with her.
That's a bingo! A few months ago I came across a note she wrote me on our last anniversary. It said something like "Thank you for putting up with me for so many years".
Anyway, I think it may be in the realm of possibility that your wife has some guilt over the way she treats you and the children. My XW very well knew that she often wasn't pleasant, but she didn't seem to have the ability to control her emotions. Part of your wife's issue may be that she doesn't want you to continue to be shackled by her behavior.
A very interesting thought. And it could be what's driving this, at least in part. But why would she harbor such nastiness toward me if that's the case? Is she trying to drive me away to save me? It just doesn't make sense.
Ah, mind reading. My favorite pastime.
A very interesting thought. And it could be what's driving this, at least in part. But why would she harbor such nastiness toward me if that's the case? Is she trying to drive me away to save me? It just doesn't make sense.
Ah, mind reading. My favorite pastime.
Agreed, regarding the mind reading thing. But, I can attest to my own mental state throughout the separation and divorce. I was angry at the OM and my wife. Anger is generally considered to be a less than desirable emotion, but I also believe my anger helped get me through the most difficult thing I'd ever experienced in my life.
The downside of anger is that it can occasionally override self control and rational thought. In my case, much of my anger was directed toward the OM; that made it easier for me to handle all of the hurt. (Just to prove that point, I have a court date on January 16th because of a motion for contempt. I didn't cut that useless f*cker any slack.)
She treated me like cr@p, but I still miss those times.
I think you really need to examine the statement above.
LH, fair enough.
I don't miss being treated like cr@p. In spite of the cr@ppy moments sprinkled in from her, I miss being a family and doing family events. I miss all of us together going on an adventure. That won't happen any more. I guess I'm grieving.
In other words, there was plenty of negativity from her, but I felt like it was still a life worth having.
And now for something completely different:
This morning leaving for work, I walked up to my car and was greeted with a nice flat tire (I've had issues with this particular tire for a while). I was due for new tires anyway, so I headed to the tire store and bought 4 new tires.
It was a major, unexpected purchase. But since I'm managing my own finances now, I didn't have to consult a single soul to make the decision. I just haggled with the guy for a bit, talked him down a little, and bought them. In the old days, I would've been on the phone consulting with W, seeing if we could afford it.
Freedom has its perks.
Holding,
I wish my family was intact, but you're right about the freedom. And, you're not even separated yet. Just wait, when you get a good taste of true freedom, you'll realize how much of your life was subjugated. It happened little by little over the years; exchanging your preferences and desires in an effort to keep the peace. Once you get to the place where you can look in the rear view mirror, you'll be able to see the past behaviors, yours and hers, with a lot more clarity.
I miss being a family and doing family events. I miss all of us together going on an adventure.
Why can't just the three of you go on these adventures? What will be different?
I agree with LH. I felt exactly the way you do, I had an overwhelming sense of loss, that things could not and would not ever feel "right." But the truth is that my relationship with my D is better than it's EVER been. On the weekends that I have her, we're ALWAYS doing something, when we wouldn't have done more than go to the park or something in the past. Through the week, we sing every night at bedtime. The amount of QUALITY time we have is an order of magnitude more than it was before. So go have your adventures, and cherish every second of them!
I still wish that D never had to go through this. I still miss her having an intact family, and I miss that sometimes too. But that's all I miss. I don't miss XW anymore, and I wonder WHY I missed her at all--every day I see how bad things were a little more clearly.
She treated me like cr@p, but I still miss those times
This statement just jumped out at me. How can you miss those times when your W treated you like cr@p?
It reminds me of when my sister was M to a man who treated her like cr@p. She wanted so badly to have a loving MR, and she would lie to family members and make him sound like Mr. Wonderful. Truth was, he abused her.
So, I have to ask myself what in the heck did you miss about it? Sounds to me like you and the kids could have really enjoyed those times if your W had stayed away. Unfortunately, your D is learning how to treat her future H by watching her mom. And, your S is watching you to learn how he is suppose to respond to a bullying W.
That got me thinking again, what if there is no OM? What if having no one is preferable to having me? That thought hurt. Being dumped because someone better (in her eyes) came along is one thing. But being dumped because she just can't stand me any more and would prefer solitude, that hurts.
I wonder if I've tried to convince myself there's an OM to lessen the pain. I wonder if she's trying to get me to think there's no OM, and I'm falling into her trap.
These statements concern me, Holding. Your self esteem must be running next to zero for a long time. Why are you choosing to live in these conditions? Do you believe you can't do better?
If you think that she'll get better if you just give it enough time, you need to drop those thoughts immediately. As long as she has mistreated you and not had any consequences for her actions........it's only going to get worse. I don't know that anything could turn her around, but I know a WW won't change as long as she can walk all over you.
My advice is to physically S, ASAP.
LH, man, why you keep busting my chops?
You and East are right. My sons and I will have new adventures without STBXW.
I can definitely see me and S10 having a closer relationship than before. S14, I'm not so sure about. After our weekend hunting trip, he's giving me a lot of disrespect and I've had to put in place several consequences that he's not at all happy with. I'm honestly worried that this will hurt my R with him and possibly even hurt me in the D. But my IC tells me I have to parent as best I can and not worry about those things.
This morning S10 had a doctor's appointment about some hand pains he's been having. STBXW and I both went. We actually had to sit next to each other in the little examination room. AWKWARD.
Afterwards we had some confusion about what he was doing the rest of the day. There were some miscommunications (on my part) and assumptions (on hers). He unfortunately got put on the spot and ended up having to decide whose office he had to spend the rest of the day at. Neither STBXW or I were happy about this.
After I left with S10, we had this text conversation:
STBXW: Please discuss change of plans prior to discussing with S10 so he doesn't have to choose between us.
Me: I agree
STBXW: Then why, this is the second time it's happened. (I'm not sure when the first time was.)
STBXW: I'm sorry but eventually you need to discuss co-parenting with me, regardless how much you hate me.Me: That last statement is exactly why these discussions are so difficult.
STBXW: I'm being honest. I know you hate me, I see it in your eyes and in your actions. I have heard. I know more than you think I know.(The last statement caught me off guard. It could be a bluff, but there's one person I was talking to who may have been feeding her info. I never gave him sensitive info and was aware it could've gotten back to her. She could also be bugging me or maybe even found this forum. I never responded to this.)
STBXW: We need to find common ground b/c he was already crying this morning about the D.Me: Our common ground is that we'll continue to be parents to our kids.
STBXW: Yes, I know, so please don't make S10 a pawn in this.Me: I have never used the kids as pawns and I never will.
STBXW: This morning should not have happened.STBXW: I'm tired of the head games. Can we just communicate, or will we always be at each other's throats?Me: You are free to contact me with any questions you have about the kids, and I'll respond to them. I always do.
STBXW: No you do not.Me: I will not engage in arguments with you.
STBXW: Can we just get the mediation dates set so we can finish this? I'm not engaging in an argument, unless you think when I disagree it's an argument, which is ridiculous. And another reason for the failure in our marriage.Me: I wish we could discuss things without you making accusations and blaming me.
STBXW: Look in the mirror, because you have made a false accusation against me and blame me(I think this is referring to OM)
STBXW: And I'm just tired. We are both at fault equally.(end of text exchange)
That felt relevant for some reason, not sure why though. There were probably some opportunities to validate in there. As always, feedback welcome.
I see you just responded Sandi. I'll respond to that next.
These statements concern me, Holding. Your self esteem must be running next to zero for a long time. Why are you choosing to live in these conditions? Do you believe you can't do better?
This is the $hit I am challenging you on. I keep asking myself this when I read your posts. I think you deserve so much better! Your kids are learning life lessons from you. How do you want them to grow up? Strong and confident or weak and unworthy? What kind of role model do you want to be for them?
She treated me like cr@p, but I still miss those times
This statement just jumped out at me. How can you miss those times when your W treated you like cr@p?
Like I said earlier to LH, I don't miss being treated like cr@p, but there were some ok times and even good times in there. It's the family dynamic I mostly miss, not the treatment from STBXW.
It reminds me of when my sister was M to a man who treated her like cr@p. She wanted so badly to have a loving MR, and she would lie to family members and make him sound like Mr. Wonderful. Truth was, he abused her.
I never really lied to family members or tried to cover for STBXW. Her behavior was usually on display for everyone. Shame on me for not standing up for myself more.
Unfortunately, your D is learning how to treat her future H by watching her mom. And, your S is watching you to learn how he is suppose to respond to a bullying W.
I have two sons, S14 and S10, there's no daughter. I'm sure both sons have picked up on the dynamic between me and STBXW, and I'm honestly worried that too much damage has already been done to their view of MR's.
That got me thinking again, what if there is no OM? What if having no one is preferable to having me? That thought hurt. Being dumped because someone better (in her eyes) came along is one thing. But being dumped because she just can't stand me any more and would prefer solitude, that hurts.
I wonder if I've tried to convince myself there's an OM to lessen the pain. I wonder if she's trying to get me to think there's no OM, and I'm falling into her trap.
These statements concern me, Holding. Your self esteem must be running next to zero for a long time. Why are you choosing to live in these conditions? Do you believe you can't do better?
This D is crushing my self esteem. I've done everything I can to stay where I'm at right now. My self esteem is generally pretty low, guilty as charged. That goes back to my childhood.
I believe I can do better. But I do have my faults. I'm not a saint.
This whole way of thinking "what's best for me" is really new to me. My whole life I've always been focused on what I was supposed to do and what's expected of me. This D process is challenging me to take the lead in my life. It's not an easy transition for me, but I realize it's what I have to do.
If you think that she'll get better if you just give it enough time, you need to drop those thoughts immediately. As long as she has mistreated you and not had any consequences for her actions........it's only going to get worse. I don't know that anything could turn her around, but I know a WW won't change as long as she can walk all over you.
My advice is to physically S, ASAP.
I realize she won't "get better" in this given sitch. That's part of the reason I've decided to stop trying to save the M. If she ever did turn around, it might be in several years, but it's such a part of who she is that it probably won't ever happen.
My L has advised me to stay in the home. I wish I could get out. Mediation should be soon. After D, she'll probably be out in less than a day.
These statements concern me, Holding. Your self esteem must be running next to zero for a long time. Why are you choosing to live in these conditions? Do you believe you can't do better?
This is the $hit I am challenging you on. I keep asking myself this when I read your posts. I think you deserve so much better! Your kids are learning life lessons from you. How do you want them to grow up? Strong and confident or weak and unworthy? What kind of role model do you want to be for them?
Holding, I think one of the first things that was ever relayed to us on this site was "the gift of time", I took that gift of time to correct all my wrongs(at least some of them) and secure the relationships with my children. I read the "lighthouse" poem or whatever it is weekly and especially when i'm feeling down about what my W and I are doing to our kids. I now have my two boys wanting to stay with me all the time because of my W's actions and that is without knowing of her cheating ways. My d11 and I are like two peas in a pod, I am closer to her than I have ever been.
I'm not trying to toot my horn here, I'm just saying use your time wisely and make sure your relationship with your boys is solid, your s14 is at a crucial age, my s13 is hurting more than he is showing, he's struggling in school, seems depressed all the time and stays away from his mom when she's in the house. Talk to your s14 even if he doesn't want to, he needs to know he is safe with you with what he wants to say, be there for him!
These statements concern me, Holding. Your self esteem must be running next to zero for a long time. Why are you choosing to live in these conditions? Do you believe you can't do better?
This is the $hit I am challenging you on. I keep asking myself this when I read your posts. I think you deserve so much better!
Your kids are learning life lessons from you. How do you want them to grow up? Strong and confident or weak and unworthy? What kind of role model do you want to be for them?
Thanks, LH. I realize I can do better and deserve better. There's this stupid part of me (Catholic guilt?) that's been telling me I need to eat this sh1t sandwich for the sake of my family (i.e., the kids). I realize that's not healthy.
Like I told Sandi, I worry it's too late for my kids, that I've modeled poor behavior in front of them for too long. I'm not saying this to justify giving up though. It's just where I'm at mentally. I'm going to try to show them to be confident. Finding my own strength has been hard - I have a series of affirmations, and one of them is "I am strong."
I read the "lighthouse" poem or whatever it is weekly and especially when i'm feeling down about what my W and I are doing to our kids. I now have my two boys wanting to stay with me all the time because of my W's actions and that is without knowing of her cheating ways. My d11 and I are like two peas in a pod, I am closer to her than I have ever been.
Thanks for sharing, Dusty. I used to read the lighthouse story, but I honestly never thought of it in terms of my kids. But now that you mention it, it is a good inspiration for being their stability as well. Thanks!
I'm not trying to toot my horn here, I'm just saying use your time wisely and make sure your relationship with your boys is solid, your s14 is at a crucial age, my s13 is hurting more than he is showing, he's struggling in school, seems depressed all the time and stays away from his mom when she's in the house. Talk to your s14 even if he doesn't want to, he needs to know he is safe with you with what he wants to say, be there for him!
Tooting your own horn is permitted
S14 is at a rough spot indeed. Struggling in school (failing a class), having a hard time getting to school on time, totally engrossed in games or his phone. Last night, after we had a discussion that resulted in some consequences for him, I told him, "I know you probably think I'm a jerk right now, but I love you." His reply was a very sarcastic "Hmmm. Uh huh." I'll try to keep reaching out to him.
H...it is never too late to change your behavior with your kids. I read over your text exchange with your W. It didn't seem to be very productive and there also seems to be a lot of hurt, anger and resentment between you both. Your MR may not be able to be saved but how could you move past your own issues and maybe be the voice of reason moving forward with your W?
Could you do this for the sake of your children? I just get the sense that someone has to step up.
Holding I think you're intellectually done but not emotionally done if that makes sense.
You *want* to be done, but your feelings haven't caught up. Rationally you know you're better off without her.
Getting into a separate living situation is going to help you a lot, it's going to be good for your self esteem. The sooner that can happen the better.
She still gets under your skin and you still react to her. When you're done and detached you won't give a cr@p what she says or doesn't say. It just won't impact you. My exW could scream and shout at me, make out with an OM in front of me to try to get a reaction and I would just feel pity for her but nothing else. When W does or says something and you feel nothing in response is when you're done, and that takes a lot of time.
Regarding her retirement account balance, the best advice I can give you is to regard your divorce from the perspective of being fair, but not vindictive or punishing. If you can leave something on the table that you *could* have gotten if you'd really fought for it, it will buy you a ton of goodwill in your ongoing co-parenting arrangement. Divorce will ideally be a settlement of things between you, not a forum for punishment, you'll only hurt yourselves with the arguing and make the lawyers rich.
Stay strong my friend!
Acc
J9, I'd love to be the voice of reason. But I don't know how ready I am right now. Yes, there is hurt and resentment. The anger is fading, but there's still a little left. STBXW also mentioned hate - I don't hate her any more. But for a while I really did. Now I just want to be done with her.
You know what I do hate? This dark legal cloud hanging over everything. It prevents real conversations from happening between us. I'm just so guarded with everything I say. The funny thing is, we've never argued as much as we argue now. I wish we could just hit pause on the legal side and have a REAL ARGUMENT where we get to yell and scream as much as we want. Not sure what that would really achieve other than making me feel better.
I know we'll have to get to a place where we can be healthy for the sake of the kids, but I think that'll take a while to get to.
If you look at that text exchange, I see accusation or blame in just about every text she sent. Am I the only one seeing that? I'm serious (and I know I'm not blameless). I'm trapped in the Reality Distortion Zone right now.
Do you have any concrete examples from that text exchange of things I could've done better?
Holding I think you're intellectually done but not emotionally done if that makes sense.
You *want* to be done, but your feelings haven't caught up. Rationally you know you're better off without her.
Yes, that makes perfect sense. Thanks. Is it just a waiting game with the feelings? Can I just kick my feelings' @ss?
Getting into a separate living situation is going to help you a lot, it's going to be good for your self esteem. The sooner that can happen the better.
I can't wait! But it looks like it won't happen until D is final.
Regarding her retirement account balance, the best advice I can give you is to regard your divorce from the perspective of being fair, but not vindictive or punishing. If you can leave something on the table that you *could* have gotten if you'd really fought for it, it will buy you a ton of goodwill in your ongoing co-parenting arrangement.
I have no intention of being vindictive. I just want what's fair. STBXW has proposed giving me 0% of her retirement accounts.
Thanks!
(Some days I say to myself, "this is gonna be a slow day on the DB boards for me". Those days usually end up being the busiest.)
H.....I don't know if better is the word but maybe different that could defuse the situation. You did indicate there was some mis-communication on your part. Did you own up to that with her? I myself had a hard time admitting my errors/feelings to my W and it drove her crazy.
Just a few examples below
STBXW: Then why, this is the second time it's happened.
H. I don't remember the first time it happened but I would love to sit down and discuss so we are on the same page moving forward.
STBXW: I'm sorry but eventually you need to discuss co-parenting with me, regardless how much you hate me.
Me: That last statement is exactly why these discussions are so difficult.
Maybe something like. I agree, we do need to sit down and discuss co-parenting. I want us to be on the same page for our children.
STBXW: I'm being honest. I know you hate me, I see it in your eyes and in your actions. I have heard. I know more than you think I know.
H...I don't hate you but I think this is something that we need to sit down and discuss in person vs over a text. I think it would be productive for us so we can move forward in a more positive manner. Would you be willing?
STBXW: We need to find common ground b/c he was already crying this morning about the D.
Me: Our common ground is that we'll continue to be parents to our kids.
H...I agree, I want to be on common ground as well. I would like to sit down and discuss how we can move forward in the best interest of our kids.
I am certainly no expert and I am not saying it's easy. I also am not trying to be critical so please don't take it that way. I also don't think your responses where wrong but could they have been re-worded in a way to defuse the sitch or at minimum to maybe open the door for a sit down conversation to help you guys move forward. Truthfully maybe you guys are too far down the path and sep is the best as ACC and Sandi have suggested.
Good feedback, J9. Thanks! I don't take it as you being critical at all.
A lot of your suggestions take the form of "sit down and discuss". While that might seem like a good approach, I don't think it would work for us right now. She is refusing all face-to-face communication. And I think it's for the best since she can't go a single discussion without making accusations against me ("I hate her", "I'm trying to screw her", or I've done something intentional to her).
Earlier this morning we were texting about finances, and we started to get somewhere, but she threw in some accusations. I denied them and said I hoped we'd be able to discuss this in a civil manner. She then ended the conversation. I don't feel like I can get anywhere with her right now.
No worries H......ultimately you know your sitch better than anyone else!
I denied them and said I hoped we'd be able to discuss this in a civil manner. She then ended the conversation.
Do you think she ended it because you wanted to discuss in a civil manner and she realized, by you pointing it out, that she wasn't being civil? Do you think her tone would change if you didn't get sucked in emotionally. When you said she ended the conversation it made me think that she caught herself.
Focus on your relationship with your boys. Your S14 is at a hard age. He is probably angry at the situation. Maybe you have trouble communicating with him. Sometimes, parents try so hard to protect their children's feelings that withhold too much, and the kids have to form an assumed explanation.....which is usually very inaccurate.
Make a real effort to include him when you do things with S13, as well as have one on one with him. If he thinks you and his brother is chummy, he might resent it or feel jealous. Man, I don't envy you! I would not want to raise teenagers again. Parents deserve a medal just surviving.
.
Whatever happened in your childhood that still affects how you operate in adult relationships today, I hope you can receive help from your IC. It breaks my heart, Holding. I suppose we all carry something from childhood that negatively mold our adult years. If we can identify "it" and know how it is affecting our current life, then surely there is an answer in how to resolve, overcome, or deal with it. ((hugs))
Btw, discussing the co-parenting or visitation (whatever it was she was texting about) is not considered relationship talk. I say this in case you have appeared stubborn in communicating with her about the kids.
Do you think she ended it because you wanted to discuss in a civil manner and she realized, by you pointing it out, that she wasn't being civil? ... When you said she ended the conversation it made me think that she caught herself.
I think she ended it because she realized the conversation wasn't going her way. Her exact words were "This discussion is over". She LOVES to get the last word. I think she enjoyed it b/c I'm usually the one to end the convos.
Do you think her tone would change if you didn't get sucked in emotionally.
That's a good question. Not getting emotionally sucked in is big time goal for me, and I have a lot of work to do. I think she enjoys sucking me in emotionally and getting a rise out of me. It seems to almost be her goal. When I don't get emotional and instead try to play it like Spock (something I do often), she gets really frustrated.
Our conversations lately go like this: STBXW approaches me with a financial or child-related issue to discuss. It will sometimes start with something like "Look, I know you are angry with me and don't want to talk to me, but we need to discuss X." We make a small amount of progress, but she invariably injects an insult, accusation, or snide remark. This is where she comes up against my boundary, and I end the conversation. Sometimes we might make it all the way through to the resolution of the issue, but she makes sure to throw in a little jab at the end.
Yeah, writing that out makes me realize just how toxic she is.
Focus on your relationship with your boys.
Sandi, will do!
S14 is in a really rough spot. I do have trouble communicating with him, and I think he's jealous of my interaction with S10 to some degree. It's weird though, up until about a year ago, S14 and I were so close. I always try to include him with S10, but he often opts out. It really upsets me. I'm starting to worry that he'll chose not to live with me after the D.
I do not avoid discussing co-parenting (GOD, I HATE THAT WORD) with STBXW. Sometimes she pushes an issue I'm not ready to discuss because of plans I'm not sure of yet, so I ask her to postpone the convo until later. Maybe she sees my desire to postpone as being stubborn though.
Childhood issues (mainly being betrayed by friends and bullied): I've been working with my IC on so many other issues, that the childhood issues have taken a back seat. Now that my emotional turmoil is starting to subside, I realize I have to address these issues with my IC. Thanks for the kick in the butt.
I think she enjoys sucking me in emotionally and getting a rise out of me. It seems to almost be her goal. When I don't get emotional and instead try to play it like Spock (something I do often), she gets really frustrated.
I think you are on to something! I agree with you! So you play it cool, she gets frustrated, throws out some insult and you let her know that speaking to you this way is unacceptable and you would love to continue the conversation but that it will only happen if she can remain calm.
I think you have tried to do this but if I remember it has happened in the context of you getting sort of sucked in emotionally. When you get sucked in I think it takes away the power of your message.
"Look, I know you are angry with me and don't want to talk to me, but we need to discuss X."
Why do you think she feels that way? Do you think this is something that she could get past through your actions? Maybe to do so would force you to maybe reconcile some of your own hurt, anger, etc.? If you were ever to R wouldn't those issues have to be resolved any way?
Yeah, writing that out makes me realize just how toxic she is.
I agree 100%...my W would argue with me and when I would argue back she would never accept any blame or she would turn it back around on me so I would never get any where. Finally I stopped trying, I called her out on it a few times but I never really sat her down to let her know how it made me feel. That part of our R was not good but I just accepted it over time which probably helped get me in the position I am in now.
Knowing she is toxic, is there anything you could do differently to help led her through this crisis? I am not talking about your MR and R/D discussions but leading her through this communication gap between you two so that when you communicate it can be more productive? Or even be a better life at home until your S/D for your children? Is there a way you could "step up" and make a difference?
H...again just my random thoughts, not trying to be critical. I am lucky in many ways that my W moved out 3 weeks after BD so I did not have to go through the in-house separation ordeal. I feel for you and your pain!
I'm not sure why you're being guarded from a legal perspective. You could secretly audio record 100% of what you say to each other and it really wouldn't matter a bit unless you were talking about doing things that were illegal or threatening to hurt yourselves, each other, or the kids, and even in that scenario the lawyers would need to filter it.
When I got divorced there were really just two components to it: a financial settlement and a parenting agreement.
For the financial settlement, the judge is going to want the two of you to put everything in a theoretical pot (assets and debts) and then each take half.
The arguing begins when you have things that are difficult to value -- i.e. if you take the couch, you might say it's worth $300 whereas STBX might say it's worth $4,000 and that type of arguing can consume lots of legal $$.
You each have to disclose everything to each other in terms of your accounts, balances, and debts, and if you hide anything you can wind up in contempt of court so you don't want to do that.
Then after you agree on how things are divided up, the judge will just ask if you've seen each other's disclosures and understand and agree to the division you've made, and he'll expect both of you to nod and say "yes".
Therefore your best bet is to work it out at the kitchen table between the two of you. If she doesn't want to give you any of her retirement money, can you claim something else of comparable value?
The judge will not care *at all* about any he said - she said or who did what to whom. They just don't care, nor do they want to get in the middle of it. There's no right and wrong, there's only dividing up your stuff fairly.
The other part is ongoing alimony and child support. Child support is generally a non-negotiable state formula based on the difference in your incomes and your parenting time, and alimony has state guidelines but can be modified or waived.
I wouldn't worry too much about trying to incriminate each other by recording your arguments, it won't count for anything in the final analysis and will just put both of you on edge.
Acc
Our conversations lately go like this: STBXW approaches me with a financial or child-related issue to discuss. It will sometimes start with something like "Look, I know you are angry with me and don't want to talk to me, but we need to discuss X." We make a small amount of progress, but she invariably injects an insult, accusation, or snide remark. This is where she comes up against my boundary, and I end the conversation.
When she approaches you with an issue, tell her up front that you are willing to discuss it as long as she can keep it polite. If she starts insulting you, then you end it.
Thanks J9, Acc, and Sandi. I'll get to your posts in my next post. Something I've got to get to first...
STBXW and I had an interesting convo last night.
We had a discussion in her room about several things. It started out about finances (which I ended because it wasn't really getting us anywhere). We talked about splitting time with the boys for Thanksgiving week. We talked about how our convos haven't been productive lately. She told me I'm arrogant, and she hoped I'd be able to work on that. She admitted that she needs to work on not making negative statements.
She talked about how we need to get mediation scheduled soon, because she is miserable living in the house with me. And this led her to talk about how she thinks I hate her.
I told her I didn't hate her any more. She asked what made me stop. I said it wasn't really anything, it was just a stage I had to go through. She told me she never intended to hate me, and she started to cry when she said this. She realized she'd been a horrible wife. I asked her if she hated me and she said no. (Which made no sense considering what she'd just said). She told me she hoped that I'd be able to forgive her one day, since I've been going to Divorce Care and seeing an IC. She said she's forgiven me for some things but not everything (no specifics). I said I'm sure I'll get there one day.
The conversation was over and I walked out of the room. We walked into the living room where the kids were. She asked me if she could have a hug. I was surprised and said, "Well, I guess, if you want one." We hugged for a moment. Without realizing it, I found myself rubbing her back gently. She whispered in my ear "I'm sorry. Do you think you'll ever be able to forgive me?" I said, "I'm going to need time." She said, "Yeah, me too." Then the hug was over.
Impression #1: This felt like a weird kind of closure. I was almost in a happy mood after that for some reason.
Impression #2: I suspect she's up to something. Maybe she's seen the financial info my L sent over to her L, and she realizes how the 50/50 split will be a lot different from what she expected.
"Look, I know you are angry with me and don't want to talk to me, but we need to discuss X."
Why do you think she feels that way? Do you think this is something that she could get past through your actions? Maybe to do so would force you to maybe reconcile some of your own hurt, anger, etc.? If you were ever to R wouldn't those issues have to be resolved any way?
I'm not sure what you're asking. Can you clarify? She assumes I'm angry (and I hate her) because I don't talk to her and seem to be avoiding her. I am still angry, but I don't hate her any more. Are you saying I should act as if I'm not angry, and try to also resolve my anger?
Knowing she is toxic, is there anything you could do differently to help led her through this crisis? I am not talking about your MR and R/D discussions but leading her through this communication gap between you two so that when you communicate it can be more productive? Or even be a better life at home until your S/D for your children? Is there a way you could "step up" and make a difference?
I'd like to be able to. The challenge is to do it in a way that she doesn't construe as condescending. I don't think I'm being condescending, I'm just discussing things very matter-of-factly and in a logical, non-emotional way.
I'm not sure why you're being guarded from a legal perspective. You could secretly audio record 100% of what you say to each other and it really wouldn't matter a bit unless you were talking about doing things that were illegal or threatening to hurt yourselves, each other, or the kids, and even in that scenario the lawyers would need to filter it.
...
I wouldn't worry too much about trying to incriminate each other by recording your arguments, it won't count for anything in the final analysis and will just put both of you on edge.
Thanks. I guess I need to stop worrying about every little thing hurting my chances in the D. I do have to be open to the possibility that we'll go to trial. It does stress me out a lot, since there's so much riding on it.
When she approaches you with an issue, tell her up front that you are willing to discuss it as long as she can keep it polite. If she starts insulting you, then you end it.
I'll try to remember that approach. It's tricky because she starts giving me attitude (tone of voice, faces) without really insulting me. Where to draw the line gets tricky. But I think I need to be sure to call her out when any of her behavior is hurting the conversation.
Holding,
I think you are right to have your guard from your past experiences. But this time try to look at it from an optimistic side. Expect the worst, hope for the best.
What if she is truly being sorry, you dont want to ruin that.
Live in this moment and enjoy it. I think she is probably feeling really bad for hurting you. That don't mean she wants to save the M. But she feels really horrible right now. Maube she got convicted about how she was treating you.
Tomorrow morning tell your wife Good Morning with a smile. Be genuine, if you be genuine, try your hardest to be. Don't pursue. It's something neighbors tell each other the time and they smile doing it.
If she asks you to do something for her, try saying I dont mind, instead of, "well I guess if you want one". If you don't want to donit say no. Bit I think you wanted to hug as well. The NGS makes us say well if you want. A man says, what he truly feels. Yes, I mind receiving a hug.
Take charge, that's whats been lacking from you in the M. Take those openings when they present themselves.
Corrections,
"Your guard up"
"If you cant be ginuine"
"Each other all the time"
"To hug her as well"
"Yes, I don't mind receiving a hug"
I wish there was an edit button.
JoeJoe, thanks for your take on the convo! I noticed you seem to be having a lot of problems with typos lately. Bravo, good sir, for trying to get us our edit button back
Everyone I tell about it mentions the guilt she seems to be having about all this. It's good to get others' opinions, b/c honestly I don't trust myself to clearly see anything she says or does any more.
What you said about the hug, I don't think I was being p/a about it. I really just didn't care one way or the other. When she asked, my mind didn't say yes or no, I was just sorta meh.
I'll try to take it for what it is and be positive where I can. But she's currently out of town, and I'll only see her 2 times in the next week. She decided a while back to take our sons back to our hometown for Thanksgiving week, without any regard for what my plans were. I'm meeting up with her 2 times for kid exchange, but she'll have them for Thanksgiving day.
On a different note, I've finished Divorce Care. Despite the overwhelming religious overtones, I'd give it a recommendation. The support group aspect of it is probably its strongest point. The focus on scripture is sometimes a bit much for this Catholic boy, and the last session was pretty much a commercial for Christianity. But overall it gives you a good roadmap to get through D with a healthy frame of mind. It helps you think about the future, how it can be good, and how you can try to build a healthy R with your X after D. It also talks about recon, but it doesn't paint an unrealistic picture of the possibility. So if you're thinking about it, give it a go and see if it's for you.
I'm not sure what you're asking. Can you clarify? She assumes I'm angry (and I hate her) because I don't talk to her and seem to be avoiding her. I am still angry, but I don't hate her any more. Are you saying I should act as if I'm not angry, and try to also resolve my anger?
Yes, what would it take for you to resolve your anger? Why are you angry? I don't think there is OM is there? I know she has not been the most pleasant person to deal with but can you get to the point to when she starts mouthing off you don't let it effect you? Do you feel as though you have lovingly detached without making it look like you hate her and are pissed?
Again I am not trying to be critical so please H don't take it that way H. I didn't have to go through in-house SEP so I have not walked in your shoes. I jumped in because you wanted feedback on the text exchange you had last week with her. Can you get to a point to where you take the higher ground and don't let her suck you in emtionally?
I know its easier said than done I just think something has to break the cycle if you guys have a chance to recon. Especailly since you are living under the same roof and kids are involved. If you took the lead and worked on breaking the cycle could your sitch become more peaceful?
H.....this sounds really good! Maybe this will help you guys moving forward in a more peaceful sitch. It sounds like the both of you got to clear some of the air and maybe in some respects get on the same page.
IMO this was a really good first step to healing. Nice work!
Yes, what would it take for you to resolve your anger? Why are you angry?
I've been thinking about this since your post, J9. Here are a few reasons for my anger:
She rejected me.
She a quitter who gave up on our M.
She's selfish.
She's hurt my sons with her decision and this will follow them for the rest of their lives.
She's lied to me.
She's tried to hide assets from me.
She's tried to steamroll me in the D process.
How can I resolve these? I guess just having time to get over it. Having some real remorse from her and admitting the immense hurt she's caused would also help. I've gotten a little of that, but I need more.
I don't think there is OM is there?
There have been several fantasy As (online flirting), and there was at least an EA, if not PA. Her heart has definitely checked out and started looking elsewhere.
Do you feel as though you have lovingly detached without making it look like you hate her and are pissed?
No. I just haven't been able to do that. I've tried, but it's the best I've been able to manage. I suppose as time goes on I might be able to get there.
Can you get to a point to where you take the higher ground and don't let her suck you in emtionally?
This is really my main goal right now in regards to her. She tries so hard to suck me in, and I'm get better bit by bit.
H,
Keep up the good work. Identifying those feelings will truly help.
Get that optimism going. You are a lot stronger than just a few months ago.
H....she hurt your ego I get it. Your angry and pissed. I would only suggest that displaying this towards your W is not going to help you reconcile. IMO it will only push her farther away. I deal with my anger by lifting a ton of weights. What do you do to help address yours? Everyone is different but everyone also needs an outlet or multiple!
I know its tough but try to stay focused on your goal and if what you are doing will help you achieve them. My W has probably cheated on me, she has rejected me, said she doesn't love me, isn't attracted to me, has been cold, distant, short, angry, pissed, selfish, hurt my D's/broke up our family, has probably lied, gone over budget, racked up CC debt and has shown no remorse for anything. I can still sit next to her and smile, laugh, not get angry, etc. Why? I have no idea. If I had to guess it is because I am secure with myself as a man and I know that she is a fool. Unfortunately or fortunately I do still love her and I know if I asked my kids they would want daddy to fight. So I continue on...........
You have done a great job identifying why you feel the way you do. Now start working on a strategy to overcome so you can start healing yourself and potentially your R. You may never get any real remorse from her or acknowledgement of the pain she has caused. You may need to find a way to heal yourself without relying on her to do it for you.
That healing could start with you being confident and secure with yourself and the steps you need to take to get there.
We are here for you H!
JoeJoe, thanks for the support. You've been a great help through this process, especially with being able to reach out to you IRL.
J9, I do need to find a good outlet for my anger. My working out routine has suffered lately, that's been my only outlet. I just have a real hard time keeping my anger to myself. It seems to take a lot out of me to put on a fake front and be pleasant. And when I do try to be pleasant, she takes advantage of my kindness. Lots more work to do with IC.
You got this H....stay focused. You can do this, continue to put in the work!
And when I do try to be pleasant, she takes advantage of my kindness. Lots more work to do with IC.
Instead of being pleasant how about trying indifference?
I do need to find a good outlet for my anger. My working out routine has suffered lately, that's been my only outlet. I just have a real hard time keeping my anger to myself. It seems to take a lot out of me to put on a fake front and be pleasant. And when I do try to be pleasant, she takes advantage of my kindness. Lots more work to do with IC.
H
What's going on with your workouts?? Are you still angry at this point, I get it but if you have accepted that your M is not salvagable the prospect of what you new life looks like should drive away the anger. Since I am keeping my house I have started doing some DIY stuff to keep busy, I've learned that it doesn't need to be a physical act to curb my anger, a nice walk like i've said before does the trick. Keep it up, you're doing great!
Thanks LH and Dusty!
Instead of being pleasant how about trying indifference?
I try to pull off indifference, and I think I come off more like Spock than the Fonz. She reads Spock as hatred.
What's going on with your workouts??
I just haven't been able to go as much lately. I should probably take up walking in the evenings again. I do manage to get in my pushups at home though.
Are you still angry at this point, I get it but if you have accepted that your M is not salvagable the prospect of what you new life looks like should drive away the anger.
Yep, I know on a rational level that what you're saying is true. But I'm still in the thick of this battle. STBXW is harassing me about why mediation is taking so long, and blaming me and my L for excessive delays. These things do push my buttons, as they affect my ability to see into the future.
Yep, I know on a rational level that what you're saying is true. But I'm still in the thick of this battle. STBXW is harassing me about why mediation is taking so long, and blaming me and my L for excessive delays. These things do push my buttons, as they affect my ability to see into the future.
I know everyone's sitch is different here but my W isn't a mean nasty person, just doing things to turn my screws. Her lack of care for anything regarding the family has done this to me lately. When she does these things I just grin and bare it, "fake it to make it" right?? My W will be out in a couple weeks, counting down the days! Just keep it up, it is tough, remember your boys and how you want them to view you! Whenever things get tough I think of them, usually helps me through the funk.
Journaling:
Thanksgiving week was pretty good, considering my sitch. I returned to our hometown, where STBXW had already brought our sons a few days before. I arranged to get them from her Monday and drop off Thursday morning. So this was our first real "drop off".
When I picked them up, we met in a parking lot at a mall. She didn't say a word or look at me when I looked at her. She seemed annoyed. I didn't say anything. She silently took their bags out the car and placed them on the ground. She told the boys bye, I grabbed the bags, and then we got in our cars and drove off.
I had a good time with the boys, and my parents and I found plenty of things for us to do. On Wednesday, S14 stayed at my parents' house while S10 and I went bowling. He and I both svck at bowling, but we had fun anyway. There were times when I was watching him bowl, that I could feel this sadness trying to pull at me. Like my brain was trying to remind me about the D. I acknowledged it for a second, but ignored it.
For the drop off Thursday morning, I texted her before to let her know I was on my way, the boys were dressed for Thanksgiving dinner with her family, and to remind her about the check she had promised me (part of our financial arrangement). No response.
When I got to her parents' house, I brought the boys up to the porch. FIL answered the door, smiled at the boys, then looked at me and said hey. I smiled at him and said hey back. We told each other Happy Thanksgiving, and I think we may have shook hands. Then STBXW appeared, gave me the check, told the boys hi, and walked back into the house with them. And that was that.
About an hour later I texted her to thank her for agreeing to let me spend a few days with the boys, and I told her Happy Thanksgiving. No response.
Anyway, the next few days were really good. Spent Thanksgiving day with my parents. Then got together with my sister and several old friends over the next two days. We talked about the D, but it was a good time. I really miss my hometown, and if I didn't have my kids keeping me in our new city, I'd move back in a heartbeat. Moving away from my hometown is another thing I'm angry with STBXW about, since she pushed so hard for it.
When I was driving back home on Sunday, I realized I'd been in a good mood being away from her and certainly didn't miss her. I expected she'd pull something or harass me in some way when I got back. Turns out, she couldn't even wait until I got back. While I was driving, she sent me this huge text where she asked if we could schedule mediation soon, and she mentioned that after some "insinuations" I made during our last big convo (the one where she gave me a hug), she realized she cannot live in the same house with me. She also blamed me and my L for delaying the legal process and saying this caused her to lose hope that we can settle this amicably. The whole text struck me as legal posturing, and I really resented that she tried to claim I made some insinuation that made her feel like she was no longer safe in the house. So yeah, the text got to me. I know it shouldn't have, and I'm angry with myself for letting it ruin my good mood from the week. I replied that I would definitely be contacting my L, and I said I wouldn't dignify the rest of her comments with a response. I also told her to send me all future comments about the D via email, not text.
When I got home, we didn't talk or interact with each other. I'm at least Thankful for that. But I went to bed in a bad mood. I let the legal maneuvering get to me too much. I'm starting to feel like every fact-to-face convo we have is a trap.
...
The next morning in the kitchen, while S10 was eating his breakfast, he asked me if I'd be sad if mommy died. I was upset by his question, and slowly nodded my head yes. At that point, STBXW walked in. She'd heard S10's question, but I don't think she saw that I had nodded my head. She told him not to ask questions like that.
Then she asked if I'd be going out that night (my usual Divorce Care night, but I'm done with the program). I asked her what difference it made (yes, I was very suspicious of talking to her). She got exasperated, said she was going to be making dinner later, and wanted to know if she should make me some. I said, ok, I'd like some. After she left the room, S10 asked me why I acted like that. That made me feel really bad, and I told him I was sorry he saw that, and D is hard.
So yesterday I was thinking I have to find a way to insulate my kids from all this negativity. I tried to talk myself into being less antagonistic, if for no other reason than the kids. I was home before STBXW, and I texted her to ask if I could get dinner started. She never responded. When she got home, I told her she didn't have to make me any since she was pressed for time. No response. While she was cooking, she made a loud, exasperated sigh a few times. When she put my food on the table, I said Thank You. No response.
All four of us ate dinner together, which rarely happens any more. STBXW and I sit right across from each other, but she never looked at me or said anything to me. We talk to the boys, but not each other. It's actually pretty awkward. After dinner she took the boys to their boy scout meeting.
When I was home alone, I had the strange urge to look at old family pictures of happier times. I didn't though.
So I feel like I'm all over the place. There's so much mental maneuvering with STBXW, it literally drains me.
(Whew, for a while there I was afraid of losing my "longest post" status.)
Holding,
I'm sorry about how stressful this is! I agree that for the boys' sake, if she asks you if you're going out a simple "yes" or "no" would be better than asking her why she cares or something similar. Try to keep things business like and to the point versus taking the conversation in a new direction.
Regarding "legal posturing" I'm telling you there will be no "he said / she said" even if this goes to trial. The judge doesn't care who was right and who was wrong, or who is the better parent or anything else about your personal lives. His or her priorities are (1) protect the kids, (2) uphold the law, (3) make sure that no one is being steamrolled or taken advantage of via making sure that your asset division and support agreements are as fair as possible and inline with state formulas.
She could have had 10 affair partners, called you horrible names, pushed your food on the floor every time you tried to eat and it just wouldn't matter. If you can take those worries off the table it will make dealing with her much easier for you.
Acc
H,
I really think you aren't detached. You are still holding out some hope. If you were detached, you wouldnt make those snippy remarks. If you were detached you could handle those interactions a whole lot better.
You really think you wouldn't be sad if your wife died. You know you would, so why is that a hard question to answer. No matter what you are going through, I know you dont want your boys to lose their mother, and if they and didnt show any emotion, you would leave a scar the size of the grand canyon in your boys.
Lets think about this. How did you make your son feel with that answer you gave to him. How does he perceive his dad now? You want your sons to know that their father love their mom. You dont have to be in love with her, to love her and want the best for her. And your boys needs to feel and believe that from their father.
You are leaving a huge scar on your boys in the way you are interacting with their mother. Your W is still their mother and she will always be, if your hurt her you hurt them. No matter what she has done to you, you have to find a way to make the interactions between you and her especially in front your boys betters. They deserve it!
She hurt you, but now you are hurting yourself with all this resentment you are holding on too. HOLDING is a fitting name at the moment, because you are not letting go of all the pain she has caused you. Its time to let go, of this resentment, this hatred, your wife and this old M. You are not saving your self at the moment. You are not becoming healthy. Let it all go! Please, if not for yourself for your boys.
I'm hear when you need me. Me and TXS77 are talking about meeting up. We can try and make it for all of us.
Acc, thanks for setting me straight (again) about my fears on the legal matters. Hopefully this is the last time you'll have to remind me of that.
JoeJoe, you're right that I need to present a better image for my sons. But I think you misunderstood when my son asked about his mother dying. I nodded yes, meaning that I WOULD be upset if she died. In spite of my anger, I do want them to have their mother in their lives. (I'm good for another Texas meetup too!)
I met with my IC tonight and asked her how I can let go of this anger I still have. She said for now I need to be aware of it and not let it control me. Believe it or not, I really don't enjoy this anger, and it's actually not as intense as it used to be.
Holding, I think most everything you're doing is fine, your wife's cold behavior is on HER, not you. It's fine to wish her a Happy Thanksgiving and such, if she doesn't reply then that's fine, you did the right thing even if she didn't.
I am going to make a couple of suggestions though:
So yeah, the text got to me. I know it shouldn't have, and I'm angry with myself for letting it ruin my good mood from the week.
Why be angry with yourself? It is perfectly fine to be upset about the way she's treating you! You don't deserve it! You're being cordial to her and she's being a B in return. Of course you're going to be upset. Own it! Your feelings belong to you, they are not "right" or "wrong".
Then she asked if I'd be going out that night (my usual Divorce Care night, but I'm done with the program). I asked her what difference it made (yes, I was very suspicious of talking to her).
Try and remember your W is always looking for a reason to throw something in your face, so try not to give her ammo. You could have just replied yes/no and then asked her why she wanted to know. Try to be as non-confrontational as you can. Not to save the M (which I don't think is on the table right now or for a while), but just to model the best dad possible to your kids.
I think yours is an example of how difficult it can be to give a WAS time and space when you're under the same roof. She's sick and tired of you and every time she sees you it's just a fresh reminder that she's done. She's not going to learn to miss you unless maybe there is some distance between the two of you.
AS, thanks for checking in and giving your support.
Why be angry with yourself? It is perfectly fine to be upset about the way she's treating you! You don't deserve it! You're being cordial to her and she's being a B in return. Of course you're going to be upset. Own it! Your feelings belong to you, they are not "right" or "wrong".
I got angry with myself for letting my anger drive my response to her and take control of my mood. I know the feeling itself is not really right or wrong, but it's how I react to the feeling that I have an issue with.
On one hand, letting my anger out toward her is me overcoming my P/A tendencies, and directing the anger back in an honest way. On the other hand, I've been getting a lot of feedback saying my anger isn't really helping my sitch. So I'm trying to find a middle ground. Obviously I didn't do such a great job letting it out since I still reacted badly to her the next morning.
I think yours is an example of how difficult it can be to give a WAS time and space when you're under the same roof. She's sick and tired of you and every time she sees you it's just a fresh reminder that she's done.
Amen, brother!
She's not going to learn to miss you unless maybe there is some distance between the two of you.
Yep. She refuses to move out - I believe her L advised her not to. I blame my state, which does not require a legal S period. (I'm half joking)
Time for a new thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2769772&#Post2769772