Recap:
BD (ILYBINILWY) in April, 2017. Did all the wrong things for a month, then started DB'ing - pretty poorly TBH - for another month. STBXW said she wanted to D on 7-13, and her L filed 4 days later. I got a L soon after. We've told the kids (the worst experience of my life), she's moved out of the MBR, but is still living in the same house. Both L's are talking and mediation is going to be scheduled soon.
I've realized I've been letting STBXW call all the shots in our MR, and now even in the D process she's trying to call the shots. I've also realized I reacted from a place of pain for much of this process. My new goal is take a more active role in all this mess, protect my boys, respond instead of reacting, do what I want when I want, and no longer give my STBXW any head space.
This weekend the boys were out of town on a camping trip, so it was just me and STBXW at the house. What fun!
From reading Clyde's thread and a book I have on splitting from someone with BPD and NPD, I've started to mentally prepare myself for some bad sh1t. I have a feeling there may be a bogus restraining order at some point in the future, so I have a bag packed and ready to go if the cops show up.
I've been talking offline with JoeJoe (awesome dude - we met IRL), and he pointed out that maybe I never really apologized to STBXW for the whole "3rd child issue" (
link for description). Sure, I said I was sorry for what I did (and I am), but JoeJoe wisely pointed out I apologized for my action, not her pain. So I set out to find a way to do so this weekend.
On Saturday morning we talked for about an hour and a half. It was mostly about STBXW's impatience that this D is taking so long. She said she's a prisoner in this M and our house. I reminded her that she's free to leave. She disagreed, since I wouldn't sign her waiver for buying a new house. I can see how entitled and self-centered she is.
At a two different points I ended the conversation and walked out the room, because she kept slipping in accusations and snide comments. Both times, she followed me into the MBR, apologized, and asked me to continue the convo.
I don't remember everything we said, but at one point there was a lull in the convo, so I figured it was time to try out my apology. I spit out "I'm sorry I robbed you of a daughter," mirroring her exact words from BD back to her. She was looking at something when I said it, and she pursed her lips for a second and said, "well, it's too late for me to have kids now. I even asked you if you wanted to adopt and you said no."
Then she tried to get me to apologize for accusing her of cheating, and for "hacking" her phone. It made me wonder if she's actually going to try to use my apologies against me - Doodler, you may be right! I didn't take the bait, just saying I didn't want to discuss it.
She spent a while talking about how she never cheated, and was only talking to friends for support. It's funny she mentioned several people by name, but suspected OM's name never came up.
I also figured I'd directly address her question from a week ago, where she asked why I often leave the room when she was home. I told her I did it because sometimes I didn't want to be around her. I said seeing her was a painful reminder of who she used to be, and it was a slap in the face to see the new her. I told her I was hurting, and I was hurting for my boys. As much as I tried to fight it, I started to get teary eyed.
She said she hasn't changed; she's still the same person. She said I don't see her when she's alone in her room or at work. I agreed, then asked how I would know if I never see any emotion from her. She said she needs to be strong, because otherwise her emotions would make her stay for the kids.
She wrapped up the convo by asking me to talk to my L about moving things along. I said I already did that. I put on some shoes and told her I was getting some lunch. I left.
Part 2 next
For the rest of the day, I kept myself busy with things I wanted to do. I got lunch at this great place that has 50 beers on tap. I texted a friend to see if he wanted to stop by and join me, but he wasn't able to. So I just hung out by myself.
I went back home and changed into some workout clothes. STBXW wasn't there. I hit the YMCA for about an hour and a half, and went back home to shower. I hung out for a long time at home, and she never showed up (not that I was waiting for her). Eventually I left to see a late movie by myself.
Right as the movie was about to start, STBXW texted me to ask if I was coming home that night. I thought about whether to respond for a moment, then just replied with "yes." I put my phone on silent and enjoyed the movie. I HIGHLY recommend Blade Runner 2049!
Anyway, by the time the movie was over, it was well after midnight. When I turned on my phone, I saw STBXW had texted me 6 times and called me twice! She said she wanted to know if I was okay and not dead on the side of the road somewhere. I texted back that I was ok. When I got home, she seemed mad and said she was worried about me since I'm usually not out so late. I thanked her for her concern and went to bed.
The next morning we both went to church, but we took separate cars and sat apart. When we got back home, she said she didn't appreciate me ignoring her the night before. She was worried since I seemed to be pretty upset during our convo from earlier that day. She said it's in her nature to care about people, but she's not going to bother caring about me any more. I just said ok. She left. She really likes to deliver these monologues.
I actually went back to church and talked to the deacon for an hour about my struggles. He helped me deal with my guilty feelings about letting my boys down, and reminded me to not take on all the responsibility. He continues to say STBXW's actions don't seem to make any sense. I think he suspects OM. He gave me his personal cell number in case I need to call.
STBXW left town yesterday for a work trip and is coming back tomorrow. So I get a brief break from in-house separation hell.
JoeJoe reminded me that when someone who's used to being in control starts to lose that control, they act in unpredictable and wild ways. And the dude is right. I didn't know what to make of STBXW's frantic texts at first, but she is losing control of me and obviously doesn't like it.
I HIGHLY recommend Blade Runner 2049!
Holding,
Do you think a replicant would make a good spouse?
Do you think a replicant would make a good spouse?
Are you testing if I'm a DB'er, Mr. Doodler, or a misogynist?
Holding,
It's just a consumer survey. If I get a positive response, I'd like to start an online store called "Replicants R Us."
I'm glad to see you start to take on that outlook. You deserve it.
Are you testing if I'm a DB'er, Mr. Doodler, or a misogynist?
I got the reference, Holding. My favorite movie (meaning the original-- haven't seen 2049).
See it!
The DB forum "Directors Cut" a few years down the line should be interesting wherein an annoying voice-over stuck there by the lawyers is removed (original BR movie joke for those not familiar)
Do you think a replicant would make a good spouse?
Are you testing if I'm a DB'er, Mr. Doodler, or a misogynist?
Well darn, I didn't get the reference. I've only seen parts of the original BR. I agree though, the new BR is good (and the female replicants are easy on the eyes).
Holding,
As a couple that is so done with each other, she still talks to you a lot and yes, she still thinks a lot about you. Interesting.
Gordie, I'm trying not to mind read with her and spend too much time thinking why she does what she does. Acc has warned me to focus on what actually happened and stay away from "fabrications". But I'll indulge a bit...
My perspective is that she sees me as a weight she needs to free herself from. As long as we're still M, she's going to obsess about me and why I'm not setting her free to pursue her shiny new life. So yes, in that sense, she is thinking about me. All of her talking seems to serve the purpose of moving toward the D. She may also be a narcissist, and it's just too hard for her to handle that she's not a main character in my story any more.
It could also be something else. This mind reading just isn't healthy for me.
This mind reading just isn't healthy for me.
YES! Diagnosing our WAS' mental conditions is a favorite past time for the LBS.
It's an effort to explain behaviors that we don't understand. If we can attribute it to some illness then we can process it.
People say and do things all the time for no reason, or for a temporary reason. People can feel very passionate about something one day, and the next day have no strong feelings about it.
State of mind is temporary and fleeting, but as humans we like to put a label on things and believe that "it is always that way".
Focus on Holding and chasing flight attendants, STBX will do what she will do.
She may have been messaging you because she wants to control where you are and what you are doing, or she may have been truly worried about you. In the end, the facts of the matter are that she tried to reach you. You can avoid that in the future by telling her you're at a movie, or if you want to be vague, say you're somewhere that you can't use your phone and then her expectations are set.
Acc
Thanks, Acc! I'll try to resist the labels. It is tempting though.
Met with IC yesterday, and she helped me see that I'm looking to others for validation. I want someone to tell me I did everything I could to save the M, that I gave so much of myself for this M and a cr@ppy W, only to be rejected by that cr@ppy W in the end. My IC asked me, "Holding, why do you need to hear that from someone else. Why can't you just believe it inside yourself?" Hmmm...
Time for another episode of "Crazy Sh1t my STBXW Does"
Had another talk with her last night, ostensibly to discuss the schedule for the upcoming week. This one was a real doozy - get some popcorn, folks.
I started out with the mindset that I wasn't gonna let her rattle or intimidate me. I put my feet up and leaned back. I was going to be relaxed and positive.
Things seemed to be going civil for a while in the convo, then we got to a particular day where she and I both had something to do. I told her my plans were tentative and I wasn't sure yet. I had a smile on my face (she claims it was a smirk), and she sarcastically said, "What, do you have a date?" She had crossed my snark boundary. I got up and said "I'm done with this conversation. I'm not going to deal with snarky comments." As I walked away, she started yelling that she wasn't done yet. I walked into the MBR, closed the door, and locked it. I could hear her slam something down and say "I can't wait to get out of this house!"
10 seconds later she starts knocking loudly on the door and telling me to open it. I told her I was done talking. She said "I'm going to make a note of this." I'm thinking, ha, whatever. I wandered into the closet to start pulling my clothes together for the next day. In the distance I could hear her knocking and saying something.
Eventually she changes her approach to a calm knock. I go back to the door and say I'll continue our convo if she can agree to refrain from snark. She said ok, so I let her in.
We wrapped up the schedule issue (she let me have the night in question), and she moved on to legal matters. I told her there's nothing new to discuss. She didn't like that; she wants to get this over ASAP. Then she told me she made an offer on the house she wants to buy, and she hoped the L's could sort out me signing the waiver to title, so she can close within 30 days. I was dumbfounded. (Dusty, watch out for this!) I had told her before that I wouldn't be signing it, and she went ahead and made an offer anyway, with a deposit I'm sure. She really can't accept that she's not going to get her way here. I reminded her that my L told me not to sign, and that she's free to rent a house or apartment.
For some reason she asked me about Divorce Care (I told her last weekend that I was going to the meetings). It turns out she's not going after all. She'd read up on the program and asked if it was helping me, what we talked about, who else was there and what their sitches were, etc. She asked if it was helping me see her side of things. I said it was a little. This led into a convo on my favorite dead horse - THE FAILURE OF OUR RELATIONSHIP.
Now you might ask why I let this continue. I guess it's mostly a morbid fascination. And I was honestly having a little fun in this whole encounter. With my new perspective, it's interesting to see what buttons she tries to push.
We talked about the SSM. I mentioned how her constant rejection had broken my libido. She tried to justify it by saying I was never affectionate. Then she admitted I had been affectionate early in our R. I told her the affection and sex were part of a cycle (like yin yang), and it obviously used to work earlier in our R. She had no response for that.
She brought up the emotional abuse. I admitted that I was emotionally distant and closed off, but I refused to accept that what I did was "abusive". I recently talked to an old friend who when through an emotionally abusive M, and my friend got really angry when I said STBXW has accused me of the same thing; my friend said STBXW has NO IDEA what real emotional abuse is.
STBXW told me if she came back into the M, things would be good for a while, but we'd just be back to the same place in 3 years. I told her that's just her projection of the future. She asked if I could really keep up these changes for 3 years. I thought about it, and said yes. She angrily asked how she could be sure I'd be able to do that. I told her there wasn't anything I could say to convince her of that.
She asked why I had to wait until she was leaving to start making these changes. I said I didn't know, I guess I needed to be shaken from my funk, but she had my FULL ATTENTION back at BD, and I was completely committed to work on the MR. I said it was her who decided to walk away. She said she'd tried before, and it didn't work. I apologized for that, but I said again that it was her decision to end this, not mine. Maybe pointing that out is not DB'ing, but I refuse to let her claim that I was an emotionally abusive a-hole who forced her to run away to "save herself". In my own heart, I need to stand up for who I really am.
It was getting late and S10 was waiting for us in the living room. So I got up and told STBXW that I was putting S10 to bed. As I walked out of the MBR, she followed and said "I guess you're done talking now and you're just going to walk away like always." I said "Yes I am done. And what you just said was more snark." She denied it.
She went back to her room. As I walked past her door to put S10 to bed (yes, this is something I routinely do, not STBXW), her door was slightly open and I could hear her talking on the phone to someone. She was recounting what we'd just talked about. Maybe it was a friend. Maybe it was her L.
Who cares?
Ugh. Stop the R talks man! Just stop it already! That is NO PLACE for morbid fascination. You want morbid fascination then watch American Horror Story, LOL! If you've got to go there then just shut up, listen, and validate. Whenever these talks start try to picture a frosty, tall, cool glass with STFU emblazoned on it. That drink is for you my friend, drink it up!
Is it possible that she's a replicant with machine gun jubblies?
Then she told me she made an offer on the house she wants to buy, and she hoped the L's could sort out me signing the waiver to title, so she can close within 30 days. I was dumbfounded. (Dusty, watch out for this!) I had told her before that I wouldn't be signing it, and she went ahead and made an offer anyway, with a deposit I'm sure.
Thanks for the shout out!! lol for the record I kind of gave in today on this front, we had a status meeting at the court with the lawyers to discuss everything. She accepted my buyout offer for the equity on the home so I am moving forward on refi'ing the home and gave her permission to seek other residence on her own. She will not be using shared money for this and she will continue to pay half the current mortgage until divorce is final. Her lawyer advised her to not do this and only accept a cash settlement for the equity but STBXW's guilt told her lawyer to take the deal. I will win out financially as this is a huge asset for me and great for my kids!
AS, thanks, but...ouch. I didn't see that 2x4 coming. I thought I handled things fairly well. Serious question: what's the harm in discussing the R at this point in the game? It's not like I initiated, and I did stand my ground.
Dusty, that's awesome that you got the house! No, you didn't give into your WW, you used what she wanted as leverage! Maybe I can do that too. If your WW's not using shared money for the purchase, what is she using?
Holding,
I think you did great. Remember, when a person who once had control of something lose control of what they had control of, they start to lose control of themselves. That's obviously the case here. Your wife was banging on your door, because you set a boundary. She is now just starting to understand you are serious.
I don't see a problem with the R convo, seeing how you didn't initiate it. Sounds like for the most part, you listened and validated. Is defending yourself on the E abuse situation that important. Remember, her seeing your E abusing is from her perspective and not yours. What see perceived is probably totally different from what you did. The big question is why did she see you as E abusing.
The statement from your wife about why you couldn't change and do those things before tells me two things.
1. She sees a change! Great for you. Sounds like now she has some doubt. Don't get too wrapped up in her doubt, but to me some is there now.
2. She is using you being the person you are now as an excuse to keeping moving forward on the path you'll are on.
Keep doing what you are doing.
I'm glad you kicked up your feet and smiled.
Great job.
Holding,
I think what AS is getting at is "don't treat your R talks as a curiosity." How can that possibly make things better for you? His advice was "if you're going to have an R talk, shut up, listen, and validate" and I agree that's good advice.
Thanks JoeJoe and East!
JoeJoe, she saw me as emotionally abusive because I emotionally withdrew when there was conflict in our M. I would go a day or two without talking to her. That is my fault - I have looked deep inside, owned it, and apologized to her for it. I wish I could actually improve on it with her, but I think it's not appropriate in my sitch now. I'm not denying that I didn't do these things to her, I just refuse to accept the "abuse" label. Why? Well TBH I suspect she may try to use my apologies as an admission of guilt in the D case. Unfortunately I have to weigh the legal side of things in my mind now.
East, I guess I don't get why the R talks are so bad. I'll admit I don't see the point in them. I am certainly not pursuing. But maybe a part of me is thinking it's my way of leaving a crack in the door. I'm almost ashamed to say it, but there's still a part of me that would think about taking her back. Maybe it's just my ego so that I won't have the pain of rejection any more.
Sandi posted this in my old thread, but I'll respond here.
I know I was not the perfect husband. But I did so much for her. When she was having panic attacks and didn't want everyone else to know, I helped her through them and kept her secret. I helped her get ahead in her career by caring for the kids by myself. I was super frugal when money was tight. I endured years of her snappy comments, coldness, the SSM, and her general sour mood. Why wasn't I the one to leave?
Although there may be some women out there who would give anything to have a H described in the above paragraph, your W is not of them. The more you took care of the mundane jobs of homemaking, child care, and pinching pennies.......the less she was attracted to you. You sheltered her, catered to her, and freed her from wife and motherly duties so she could spend more time focused on advancing on her job.
When this pattern continues, it tells me that that woman should have planned to just have a career, and not bring children into the world that she is not going to be there to raise. It made me angry when she suggested having another child, with no intentions of being there to care for it. Your comments actually reminded me of women who have too much burden on their shoulders and the man (who spends his time on the job) decides he wants to enlarge his family......without any consideration to the stress it will add to her. In this case, the roles have been reversed. But your answer sounded as if you were panicking at the thought of having another child (and I don't blame you)...b\c you were logically seeing how you would not have any help from the mother. She'd have the baby and hand it over to you. And her reason for wanting another child was so she could have a girl? I don't get why these women want kids when they don't want to take care of them.
Anyway, I had intended to say that there have been many H's with a story just like you have shared. A W who is selfish, has a sour disposition, has a SSM, says just enough to show disrespect for her H, and leaves the care of the children and housework to the H. I don't know why, but these women lose respect for the H, and the attraction is gone. And, the more he tries to keep the home fires going, and be there to help her anyway possible, and make excuses for her bad attitude\moods, the less attraction she has for him.
If you read JRuss story, you may recognize you and your W. I was not able to help him, and I offended him in my attempt to get him to "toughen up" with his W. His response to me made me realize I had hit some tender spots.....or maybe it was bad timing, IDK.
I said all of that to say this....... if your W has always been on the "spoiled" side....where you, her parents, or someone catered to making her happier....only it never lasted or it wasn't enough? I would say the problem is in her. If she has had a sense of entitlement most (or maybe all) the time you've known her......then the problem is in her. If her having a bad attitude, giving the silent treatment or cold shoulder is pretty normal in the MR........then I think the problem is in her. It is rare to see this type of woman change as long as her H and parents cater to her. I believe she
can change, but it would be very difficult for
this H....after all this time has passed....to "tame the shrew", so to speak. If it had began at the first start of the relationship......it would have been easier. But now, IDK.
I do not agree with your C about apologizing to your W! It would only add to her contempt for you. I think your C is just at a loss to tell you what to do about your MR.
It's very telling when you describe how much better you feel when the W is not there. I have to wonder why you want to continue living with someone who doesn't appreciate you. And I want you to know this, the SSM will not get better unless she has a major overhaul in her heart. She uses you and is not attracted to you. If you can't figure out why......then don't expect her to change for the better.
JRuss once said I had not given him constructive advice in a post I sent, which is correct. We can't always give advice in every post. But hopefully, I've given you something to think about. And, if I am completely wrong about your W, please tell me b\c I really want to know.
((Hugs))
East, I guess I don't get why the R talks are so bad. I'll admit I don't see the point in them. I am certainly not pursuing. But maybe a part of me is thinking it's my way of leaving a crack in the door.
H.....let me ask you this. When you initiate the talks do you walk away feeling good about yourself and do you ever get the response your looking for out of your W?
The reason I stopped bringing the talks up was because I felt like it put me in weak position. I never got what I was looking for and walked away feeling like crap. They also made me feel weak because I was continuing to engage with someone who has no desire to engage with me.
If there's no point to the R talk, then why have it?
I don't think it's bad, but I DO think you should approach it with the right mindset. "Morbid fascination" is not that mindset. If you want to fix things, then approach those conversations with a mindset that will get you closer to the goal. If you're done and want to D, then avoid those conversations. They will make your situation worse.
J9, I'm not initiating the talks. It's been probably 4 months since I've initiated one. She's the one who brings it up - it's something she keeps coming back to.
ok....thanks for the clarification.
If she initiates and you engage in more than just validating, etc. How does it make you feel after? Do you feel she is trying to set you up so you take the bait and she can get some personal satisfaction or draw some power/ego boost from it?
J9, I think she wants me to admit guilt and apologize (again) for what I've done. She wants to justify in her mind why this is happening. Funny how she's been pretty short on apologies lately.
With her it's all about control and ego. Every convo feels like it's just a rung in her ladder to move toward D. While I feel it's important for me to stand up and show I'm not going to back down, y'all are really making me wonder if I just need to put an end to these talks as soon they start.
With her it's all about control and ego.
Maybe every time she does it and you engage it further re-enforces this in her mind? Does this continue to re-enforce her feelings? Does she get an ego boost out of it?
Only you know your sitch.....I am just probing
H,
I have a counter opinion. I think those moments are times you can work on your strength and show your wife that you are changing. Every post you have made today on this topic, is about what your wife is getting out of the conversations. What are you getting? What can you learn from them. How can you show your wife that you are in better control of your emotions and you no longer will allow her to mess with your emotions.
You said earlier that one of your wife gripes was E abuse, and you owned up to it by say, "you would be detach and go days without talking to her". If she is opening up about feelings, why not validate, listen and show your strength emotionally. You no longer have to run, because you are confident about who you are and what you want out of life. She no longer controls your actions, and being a part of a conversation she initiates only shows her that you have 180 one of her gripes.
In the situations where you would stop talking to her and withdraw, why were you doing that?
What was the dynamic during the conversation, how would it end, and what was your goal in refusing to talk to her?
I have seen this dynamic play out where one partner is angry and wants to punish the other to the point of making them break down or getting an emotional reaction out of them.
If instead the person is emotionless or retreats, the antagonist can't get resolution and stays angry and resentful, which further drives the protagonist to continue the withdrawal.
If this describes your dynamic, it was actually your W who was the emotional abuser by pushing you beyond the point you were willing to engage. That's not respectful of your boundaries.
The other way this plays out is that one partner will come to the other with a very valid grievance, the other party will feel guilty and won't want to confront those feelings, and will just retreat and withdraw, and will then punish the other person with silent treatment in an attempt to train them not to confront them again.
In that scenario, the one withdrawing is acting inappropriately.
What was the pattern in your scenario?
Sandi, I'm finally getting around to responding. Thanks again for your comments. They've given me a lot to think about.
When this pattern continues, it tells me that that woman should have planned to just have a career, and not bring children into the world that she is not going to be there to raise. It made me angry when she suggested having another child, with no intentions of being there to care for it. Your comments actually reminded me of women who have too much burden on their shoulders and the man (who spends his time on the job) decides he wants to enlarge his family......without any consideration to the stress it will add to her. In this case, the roles have been reversed. But your answer sounded as if you were panicking at the thought of having another child (and I don't blame you)...b\c you were logically seeing how you would not have any help from the mother. She'd have the baby and hand it over to you. And her reason for wanting another child was so she could have a girl? I don't get why these women want kids when they don't want to take care of them.
To be fair, she never said she intended to just dump the baby on me. It was my interpretation of the future based on the past. But yes, she wanted a girl, the same way you might want a pony or a mercedes. She wasn't happy with what life had given her; it's like she had a list of things she NEEDED to accomplish in life. I've always thought of us (her family) as her dollhouse - something that you can open up, periodically look at, and be proud of. I haven't felt valued as a spouse.
If you read JRuss story, you may recognize you and your W. I was not able to help him, and I offended him in my attempt to get him to "toughen up" with his W. His response to me made me realize I had hit some tender spots.....or maybe it was bad timing, IDK.
I'll check out JRuss's threads. But just to reiterate, I'm not offended by your advice
I said all of that to say this....... if your W has always been on the "spoiled" side....where you, her parents, or someone catered to making her happier....only it never lasted or it wasn't enough? I would say the problem is in her. If she has had a sense of entitlement most (or maybe all) the time you've known her......then the problem is in her. If her having a bad attitude, giving the silent treatment or cold shoulder is pretty normal in the MR........then I think the problem is in her. It is rare to see this type of woman change as long as her H and parents cater to her. I believe she can change, but it would be very difficult for this H....after all this time has passed....to "tame the shrew", so to speak. If it had began at the first start of the relationship......it would have been easier. But now, IDK.
I think you may be right. She's always been very entitled. She wants what she wants, and she expects to get it. I knew this when I married her, but the difference was that, at the time, the thing she wanted was ME. For the first 5 years or so of our M, my FIL would often smile and say, "Thank you, Holding!" He was thanking me for taking her off his hands, and he'd do this in front of her. (Yes, there's a literal f*ckton of daddy issues here.)
I do not agree with your C about apologizing to your W! It would only add to her contempt for you. I think your C is just at a loss to tell you what to do about your MR.
Fair enough. Frankly, it's so sad that apologizing to someone causes them to have contempt for you. I'm done apologizing anyway. The last big one I wanted to get out there was for "robbing her of a daughter". Now it's over and done. I've said my piece.
It's very telling when you describe how much better you feel when the W is not there. I have to wonder why you want to continue living with someone who doesn't appreciate you.
I ask myself that too. It's easy to say I'm doing it for the kids, which makes me feel like I get to put a feather labeled "selfless" in my cap. But I think it comes down to a lack of self-confidence TBH, an issue that goes back to being bullied a lot as a kid. I've recognized this and am trying to get a better sense of self.
And I want you to know this, the SSM will not get better unless she has a major overhaul in her heart. She uses you and is not attracted to you. If you can't figure out why......then don't expect her to change for the better.
Thanks for setting me straight on that. Last week, my STBXW did say she needed someone to be more dominant in the bedroom; that she's dominant in other aspects of her life and wants someone to take the lead for ML. Not sure why she shared that with me - it's not useful info at this point.
JRuss once said I had not given him constructive advice in a post I sent, which is correct. We can't always give advice in every post. But hopefully, I've given you something to think about. And, if I am completely wrong about your W, please tell me b\c I really want to know.
Hey, as long as it's not dismissive or insulting, I welcome any and all feedback in my thread. I'm glad that anyone stops by to read and comment.
I think you're right about my STBXW. It wasn't all bad - there were good times and happy memories. But she was entitled, demanding, hard to please, and easy to anger.
Not sure why this popped into my head. I remember after we M but before S#1 came along, we were on the ferris wheel at a local fair. Looking out over everything, she had this amazing smile on her face. I remember thinking, why can't I make her feel that way?
Looking back, I can see so many red flags in our R, but I went ahead anyway. The blame for that falls on me. I didn't believe in myself enough to know I deserved better.
I have a counter opinion. I think those moments are times you can work on your strength and show your wife that you are changing. Every post you have made today on this topic, is about what your wife is getting out of the conversations. What are you getting? What can you learn from them. How can you show your wife that you are in better control of your emotions and you no longer will allow her to mess with your emotions.
I've tried to handle these convos with STBXW as a way of building my confidence. I want to build myself up so that I can handle whatever she throws at me (and she WILL throw a lot of anger toward me before this is over). I do think I've been moderately successful with that. Maybe "morbid curiosity" was a poor choice of words. It's more of, "I wonder where STBXW is going with this. I'm not afraid of the outcome, so let's see where this goes."
You said earlier that one of your wife gripes was E abuse, and you owned up to it by say, "you would be detach and go days without talking to her". If she is opening up about feelings, why not validate, listen and show your strength emotionally. You no longer have to run, because you are confident about who you are and what you want out of life. She no longer controls your actions, and being a part of a conversation she initiates only shows her that you have 180 one of her gripes.
I agree that this is a 180 for me. I try to validate as much as possible, but I refuse to validate things that are false. She's not going to gaslight me with false accusations. It may go against DB'ing, but I'm expressing confidence by standing up for myself.
Hey, I'm on a roll today!
In the situations where you would stop talking to her and withdraw, why were you doing that?
I'd reach a point in the disagreement where I didn't want to yell or say something offensive. I never did those things - I wanted to avoid them because I thought they were hurtful and unproductive. She went there, but I refused to.
What was the dynamic during the conversation, how would it end, and what was your goal in refusing to talk to her?
The convos would start out fairly civil, but things would slowly escalate. STBXW had a knack for always taking things to the next level. I'd eventually want to walk away because there were levels of arguing that I didn't want to go to.
I have seen this dynamic play out where one partner is angry and wants to punish the other to the point of making them break down or getting an emotional reaction out of them.
Yes, I think she definitely wanted an emotional reaction out of me. Maybe she wanted to see some passion. I felt like heated emotions wouldn't help us solve the issue.
If instead the person is emotionless or retreats, the antagonist can't get resolution and stays angry and resentful, which further drives the protagonist to continue the withdrawal.
YES YES YES YES YES YES!
If this describes your dynamic, it was actually your W who was the emotional abuser by pushing you beyond the point you were willing to engage. That's not respectful of your boundaries.
Holy sh1t, man! Why couldn't I have had this knowledge 21 years ago?
The other way this plays out is that one partner will come to the other with a very valid grievance, the other party will feel guilty and won't want to confront those feelings, and will just retreat and withdraw, and will then punish the other person with silent treatment in an attempt to train them not to confront them again.
In that scenario, the one withdrawing is acting inappropriately.
Honestly, I can't say I never did this. My W's grievances were mostly valid, and I suppose I was somewhat reluctant to discuss them at times. But I never withdrew to punish her or teach her a lesson. I was just honestly so hurt that I couldn't talk about it. I needed a "cooling off" period to get back in my comfort zone with her. Out of all the arguments we had over the years, I'd say at least 75% of them fit your first scenario.
Thanks for the insight, Acc.
I spit out "I'm sorry I robbed you of a daughter," mirroring her exact words from BD back to her. She was looking at something when I said it, and she pursed her lips for a second and said, "well, it's too late for me to have kids now. I even asked you if you wanted to adopt and you said no."
I really wished you had not apologized for not giving her a daughter. Gee, I didn't know you could control which sperm gender to fertilize her egg. But, it wouldn't matter if you could, b\c that is not the underline issue here. Your apology only puffed up her sense of entitlement and "justification" to point fingers at you for everything wrong in her life. You really can't win by offering these type of apologies, b\c she doesn't appreciate it and will still hold it against you. The problem is her cold, hard, closed heart. The sooner you get that, the easier you will make things on yourself.
I also figured I'd directly address her question from a week ago, where she asked why I often leave the room when she was home. I told her I did it because sometimes I didn't want to be around her. I said seeing her was a painful reminder of who she used to be, and it was a slap in the face to see the new her. I told her I was hurting, and I was hurting for my boys. As much as I tried to fight it, I started to get teary eyed.
Yes, YOU got teary eyed.....but
not her! Stop saying this stuff to her. Do you think it is going to soften her heart? It won't. It just causes her to hold more contempt.
Anyway, by the time the movie was over, it was well after midnight. When I turned on my phone, I saw STBXW had texted me 6 times and called me twice! She said she wanted to know if I was okay and not dead on the side of the road somewhere. I texted back that I was ok. When I got home, she seemed mad and said she was worried about me since I'm usually not out so late. I thanked her for her concern and went to bed.
She was mad b\c you turned off the phone, and one thing a WW hates is being ignored by her H and not being in charge of him at all times. All you have to do is read posts where the LBH doesn't answer his phone when the WW texts\calls, and she is going to be hotter than a pistol.
Things seemed to be going civil for a while in the convo, then we got to a particular day where she and I both had something to do. I told her my plans were tentative and I wasn't sure yet. I had a smile on my face (she claims it was a smirk), and she sarcastically said, "What, do you have a date?" She had crossed my snark boundary. I got up and said "I'm done with this conversation. I'm not going to deal with snarky comments." As I walked away, she started yelling that she wasn't done yet. I walked into the MBR, closed the door, and locked it. I could hear her slam something down and say "I can't wait to get out of this house!"
10 seconds later she starts knocking loudly on the door and telling me to open it. I told her I was done talking. She said "I'm going to make a note of this." I'm thinking, ha, whatever. I wandered into the closet to start pulling my clothes together for the next day. In the distance I could hear her knocking and saying something.
OMG! This tells me she is used to throwing tantrums. She doesn't like for you to dismiss her, does she? You have a real humdinger on your hands. She has been spoiled rotten, and it seems you are paying the price.
Now you might ask why I let this continue. I guess it's mostly a morbid fascination. And I was honestly having a little fun in this whole encounter. With my new perspective, it's interesting to see what buttons she tries to push.
Oh, p.l.e.a.s.e., I don't buy that for a second! You are showing nothing different. You are still engaging in R talks and hearing her put you down. Remember this, as long as she is demonstrating wayward behavior.....engaging in R talks will set you waaaay back. No matter if you get something off your chest, or give an apology, or see how she'll push buttons......it will set you back. I hope you will believe me and just stop the talks.
STBXW told me if she came back into the M, things would be good for a while, but we'd just be back to the same place in 3 years. I told her that's just her projection of the future. She asked if I could really keep up these changes for 3 years. I thought about it, and said yes. She angrily asked how she could be sure I'd be able to do that. I told her there wasn't anything I could say to convince her of that.
That was your chance to say, "There will be no coming back". But instead, you sung the same old tune of trying to say just the right words to persuade her back. That does not work with a WW. She has to believe she could actually lose you, and that won't happen if you are constantly telling her it's not what you want. And, Why do you want her? Seriously? Why? If you really want this woman, stop letting her know it, b\c that is the opposite action to take with a wayward W. It does nothing but make you look unattractive in her eyes. Why would she want a man who would let a woman treat him the way she has treated you? I am not saying you are blameless, I am trying to tell you from the VP of a WW. Oh and BTW, she just tempt checked you and you failed.
I want to stress something here to you and JoeJoe, and I hope both of you will take it in the right spirit. It does not matter that your WW initiates a conversation. What matters is her tone of voice, attitude, and the actions displayed during the conversation. The minute the WW makes a snide remark, raises her voice, and shows any sign of disrespect (verbal or otherwise),.......that's the minute you shut it down. Leave the house, if needed, but don't stick around for her to use as a verbal punching bag. Take it from me, if she wants to discuss something with you badly enough.....she'll learn to do it in a civilized manner. It's hard to fight someone if they aren't there. KWIM?
If that had been you yelling at her and banging on her bedroom door.....she would have called the cops. You know it's true, b\c you are already expecting her to call them on trump up charges at any time. So, why on earth would you continue listening to these R talks, and her screaming and beating on the door? When are you going to stop putting up with cr@p?
Hey, as long as it's not dismissive or insulting, I welcome any and all feedback in my thread. I'm glad that anyone stops by to read and comment.
I hope you feel the same way after reading what I have to say in this post.
((Hugs))
Hello, I'm sorry you're going through this. We're in your corner.
It seems you have to choose between being:
1) Being treated this way, disrespected, screamed at, attacked, blamed, abandoned, and told she wants a divorce and that you are the reason she is miserable in your life, and eventually watching her shack up with another guy, all while continually being an emotional punching bag.
2) Moving on without her and disconnecting from these destructive emotional dynamics.
Right now, you are choosing #1.
You are begging for scraps. You'd rather be abused by her (At least she's still in my life in some way! I'm still important to her if she's screaming at me!) than on your own.
We can rationalize it by 'standing for your marriage', but what you are really doing is enabling an addict. Here's a post I wrote a bit ago:
It helped me to think of my WW as a drug addict. For two reasons.
1) It was easy not to take it as personally. To have your life partner choose another man over you burns the soul. To watch someone addicted to meth leave their marriage and move into a flophouse where they can shoot up every night, well, it's easier to look at that objectively and compassionately and just understand she has an addiction and is powerless over it.
2) It makes it easier to set firm boundaries. When you think of her as your wife, lover, and life partner, and she is appealing to your emotions, it's hard not to be impacted. When you think of her as an addict that is simply saying whatever they need to say to try to enable the continuation of their addiction, it's easier to disengage and stick to the road you know you need to take.
Maybe it would be a better example to describe her as a gambling addict. A gambling addict will burn through your bank account, your 401K, your assets, and your credit lines if you let them. Well, a WW will burn through the 21 years of emotional good will she has built up. She will manipulate and use you and use you until either 1) you are emotionally bankrupt, or 2) you remove her as an authorized signer from your emotional account. This is why detaching is so critical.
Hopefully this helps you in your process of detaching the way it did me. It is time to cut her off, not to apply consequences, not to try to teach her a lesson, and certainly not to try to get her to hit rock bottom and come out of her fog (although if any of this helps her journey then as compassionate people of course we want that for her). But simply because I don't want you going along for a ride with her.
Remember, you can't expect her to let go of her addiction to OM if you can't let go of your addiction to her. Lead by example. Walk the walk. Detach. Go your own way. Be there for yourself. You have to fight your own battles now. She can't save you from your battles, and you can't save her from hers.
So I see your wife as an entitled addict and you as someone that wants to continue to enable her.
Easy for me to say now, but if I were in your spot I would absolutely detach, quit emotionally engaging with her, and take 100% charge of your own life. I'd file D. I'd get my finances in order. I'd just keep walking away and wouldn't look back.
I wouldn't talk about it. I wouldn't threaten it. Words are meaningless because she thinks she can stomp and you will always give in. Actions only. Walk away.
If, if, if, IF the day comes when she asks why, I wouldn't open an R conversation, I'd just say "there is nothing to discuss".
If, if, if IF she then begged and said she was sorry and wanted another chance, I'd just say "I'm not sure it's that easy anymore".Why? Because those are just WORDS. She has been manipulating you with words for long enough. Look at her ACTIONS.
Now, if the day came when she expressed remorse and humility, and continued to express that even when it didn't immediately get her what she wanted, and weeks and months went by when she demonstrated consistent, steady, rational behavior that backs up whatever breakthrough she claims to have. Well, then I'd be open to hearing what she had to say.
This is the same thing as an addict. If an addict asks why you're cutting them off in an attempt to negotiate for more money or drugs, there is no conversation to be had. If they say they'll quit, they've said it before. Once someone shows me that their words are meaningless they will have to show me the results of a drug test showing me they are 28 days sober and the changes they've made in their life before I'm even willing to hear what they have to say.
In sum, the problem is that you haven't made the decision to stop accepting this.
If you're not strong enough to make a change, how can you expect her to be? Act with the character you wish she had. Be a leader for your family.
Thanks, Sandi - really. Sometimes it hurts to hear the truth, but that's why I come here. I promise, no more apologies, no more R talks. I still have trouble seeing how an R talk will ALWAYS set me back, BUT I'm going to trust you 100% on this. If I do it again, please rip me to shreds in public.
Zues, thanks for your feedback. To be clear, I don't enjoy the screaming and having her around. I don't enjoy enabling her (though maybe I'm conditioned to do so after 18 years of M). I believe I've made big strides; I'm getting to the point of not accepting this behavior from her, but I'm not completely there yet. Your analogy of the addict is VERY helpful, and I'll try to remember that as I'm dealing with her. She has already filed for D, and the finances are as protected as possible. Mediation will happen soon, but it's not scheduled yet.
I'm trying, y'all. Everyone's posts today have given me a lot to think about. I appreciate it.
The post from Zeus is excellent! I hope you will read it over & over until you have it branded in your brain.
To be clear, I don't enjoy the screaming and having her around. I don't enjoy enabling her (though maybe I'm conditioned to do so after 18 years of M).
We can see this type of conditioning repeated throughout threads in newcomers. Especially when it's the man's first long term relationship. His W trains him.....and\or he becomes conditioned. Most of these H's have the nice guy syndrome, so it's not hard to figure out the dynamic in their MR. And the sad thing is that if the M reconciles or if he goes into a second M.....he will repeat his old behaviors. Know why? B\c he has nice guy syndrome!
This M may not saved. However, you can save the next one by saving yourself from the NGS. Please don't just slide over this as though it is just more acronyms. Read about it, b\c it is affecting your entire life....and will affect your future if you don't make an intense effort to tackle your NGS.
You are dealing with a lot right now. The energy you are spending on your WW, could be used in learning about the NGS and how to change the dynamics in your relationships....especially with women!
So, take it seriously and start tackling the problem only you can control.....your NGS.
Sandi, thanks for the tough love.
I'm very familiar with NGS. I read the book about 2 months ago. I've been working on that side of myself very hard, by myself and with my IC. As you can see, I still have a ways to go.
I'm committed to avoiding this dynamic in my future relationships. If there's any silver lining to this sitch, it's learning this about myself.
Sandi,
Thanks for the candid feedback/2x4s. I agree with 100% of the advice you provided to me and Holding. Respect is earned, and no one will respect a person that doesn't respect their selves. Keep them coming.
Lots of good stuff here Holding! I dated a woman who exhibited the behavior you describe -- when they get upset they escalate and push to try to "break you" emotionally because seeing that validates that they are important enough to get upset over.
You were doing the right thing by not tolerating or engaging in that behavior -- she needs to learn to validate herself, to deal with her own issues without needing to break you down to do it.
Agree with everyone else that "tough love time" is overdue where W is concerned.
Acc
Hey Holding! I got busy but I see now that a few days ago you asked about a comment I made, and East's response to it was spot on:
I think what AS is getting at is "don't treat your R talks as a curiosity." How can that possibly make things better for you? His advice was "if you're going to have an R talk, shut up, listen, and validate" and I agree that's good advice.
Exactly what I meant. In the meantime you also got some great advice from Sandi and Zues, especially Zues's drug addict analogy, that's brilliant! Great reminder that you are dealing with someone that cannot be reasoned with through logic, and that her situation is only going to be resolved by her having an awakening of some sort. And nothing you say or do will get her there, it's a journey she must make on her own. If you Google a definition for "tough love" one of the returns is "requiring them to take responsibility for their actions". That's advice that is given for dealing with addicts of every stripe and color, and sometimes it's what is required for dealing with a WAW as well.
That said, I still think validation is appropriate when the opportunity arises. Validation is simply getting someone to talk about their feelings and then offering support and understanding of those feelings, not the CAUSE of the feelings. It's not apologizing, or negotiating, or agreeing or anything of the sort. I just mention that because some people may see East's and my advice as conflicting with Sandi's and Zues's advice. But you can validate a drug addict's feelings without agreeing with what they are doing and the same goes for a WAS.
I've been quiet in my own thread lately, so I thought I'd pop in with a brief update.
I've been thinking about things a lot lately, especially whether the MR is worth saving. I've been digging into more NGS content (forums, podcasts). I'm at a point in life where I want to grow in new ways. I've given this MR my all, and there's nothing left to give. I've come to realize this M is not a healthy place for me to be. STBXW is not a person I can continue this journey with. I need to move on with my life.
I've had to make a big decision with my L (maybe I can talk about it later, but I don't feel comfortable for now). This is pretty much the point of no return for the MR.
I'm back to strict NC with STBXW, except for kids and finances. I'm going to shut down any R talks as soon as they start. I need y'all to be my accountability buddies - let me know if you see me screwing up!
This past weekend I drove past a place we used to rent (I happened to be driving by, it's not something I sought out). This triggered a very cathartic screaming session driving on the freeway. In fact, I screamed so loud that I felt lightheaded afterwards. I need to watch that.
I'll continue to GAL: meeting with friends, doing things solo, putting myself out there, etc. I'm thinking about taking piano lessons - it's something I've always wished I could do. I'll be taking S14 on a youth hunting program in a few weeks. He's been with STBXW on one of these before, but this is my first time taking him, and I hope we can bond a bit b/c our R has felt strained lately.
Something I came across in the NGS literature is the concept of a special woman being the icing on my cake. It's my job to build an awesome life by myself - that's the cake. A female partner should only ever be the icing. If I lose that icing, I still have the cake. I see how in my M I tried to make my STBXW the cake itself.
Thanks to Acc, Sandi, J9, East, Zues, JoeJoe, and AS for helping me navigate these waters.
(Yes, that was brief
)
I need y'all to be my accountability buddies - let me know if you see me screwing up!
Holding,
I've got to give you a 2x4. You're using unhealthy foods (cake and icing) for your metaphors. You should use healthier foods in your metaphors such as fruits, vegetables, nuts (be careful with that one) and lean meats.
Holding,
You are doing good. You are reflecting on your situation and yourself, also you M. It's a hard thing to do. And it's a hard choice to come to, to be done with your W and M. If you really feel that way, nothing is wrong with that. It sounds like no R is what you want. To me it seems like your choice is coming from a place of strength and not weakness.
If you truly believe you gave all you had to give, then moving forward with your life is the right direction to go.
Keep growing my friend.
So great to hear the update Holding. Wishing you all the best in your new decision to move on. It feel like you are at peace and happy on your own.
First of all, don't listen to Doodler. Cake is one of the food groups, I just looked it up earlier today to make sure.
I've been thinking about things a lot lately, especially whether the MR is worth saving.
Well that's a good sign, you're coming out of the fog. But here's the thing- you can't save your M, it's gone, it's history. And so is the W you knew. She's gone, replaced by this person you barely recognize. So here's the question you really need to ask yourself- "do I want a new R and maybe M with this new person that I barely know?" That was a very bitter pill for me to swallow. I kept thinking my old W was in there somewhere and would come back. Maybe she will some day, but I'm 5 years post BD and the person she is now only bears a passing resemblance to the person I was with for 25 years. And this new person? I have no attraction to her and no interest in her. I would not marry this woman in a million years. Had she been like this 25 years ago I never would have given her a second look. I think all LBSs eventually come out of the fog and come to a similar realization.
I'm back to strict NC with STBXW, except for kids and finances. I'm going to shut down any R talks as soon as they start.
Good!
This past weekend I drove past a place we used to rent (I happened to be driving by, it's not something I sought out). This triggered a very cathartic screaming session driving on the freeway. In fact, I screamed so loud that I felt lightheaded afterwards. I need to watch that.
Nothing wrong with that. Sometimes you've just got to vent the poison out. Well, except you don't want to pass out and crash
Something I came across in the NGS literature is the concept of a special woman being the icing on my cake. It's my job to build an awesome life by myself - that's the cake. A female partner should only ever be the icing. If I lose that icing, I still have the cake. I see how in my M I tried to make my STBXW the cake itself.
Perfect. Now you're seeing who has the power in your life
I just can't get a peaceful weekend.
We had a big blow up yesterday. Let's just forget that this is a DB forum, because this probably won't be a great example on DB'ing or how to save your M. My M is dead.
The monthly financial arrangements have always been hard for us, because STBXW insists on getting her way. For November, I told her I wouldn't be helping her pay for any late charges that she ran up in October - there were about 4 credit cards and utilities that she paid late. She got really upset and said, well then, she wouldn't be paying the full amount on these accounts, she'd just be paying the full amount minus the late fee, and our credit would just have to suffer for it. I didn't react and she walked off. This was in front of S10, and when she walked off he dryly said "that was harsh." (I love that little dude)
This whole conversation actually took place outside. STBXW delivered her monologue from the front porch while S10 and I were in the front yard yard putting up the Halloween decorations outside. Getting ready for Halloween was actually pretty emotional for me and S10, realizing this may be the last year we do it at our home.
Anyway, when we were done with the decorations, I just had to get out of the house for a few hours to cool off after STBXW's decision on financial sabotage.
I got back a few hours later and tried to help S10 carve his pumpkin. We were sitting on the couch looking at pictures of "scary pumpkin faces" for inspiration. Then STBXW came in the room and started pushing the financial discussion again. I said I wouldn't be helping with the late fees, it was her responsibility to pay them on time, and now she has to pay the fees herself. I said that was all I had to say about it. I went back to looking at my tablet with S10.
She kept pushing a discussion. S10 had gotten ear protectors from somewhere (the big kind you wear when shooting), and was sitting on the sofa wearing them. She started talking about how the finances were unfair to her (they are not), and I defended myself against her accusations. After a few minutes, S10 quietly left with his laptop and ear protectors. I let fly with "You're a real class act for having this argument in front of our son."
She blamed me again for preventing her from moving out. I showed her where the door was and invited her to leave. She then asked why I wasn't the one to move out. I said since she wanted this D, she should be the one to leave. She said I was as much to blame for the death of the M as she was. I told her I had issues and things to account for, but they were not 50%. She got really mad that I refused to accept 50% and wanted to know how I could say that. I told her I wasn't going to help her beat the dead horse of the M any more. I asked if she would leave me and S10 in peace so that we could carve a pumpkin. She said she wouldn't, she wanted to know how I could possibly claim I didn't own 50% of the issues. So I went in my room and locked the door. I could hear her yell from the other room "So you're just going to run off and not talk to me, like you did for our whole M."
After a minute she knocked on the door to say she was leaving the room so S10 and I could carve his pumpkin. He came to the door and asked me if I could help him, so I went out. I apologized to him for having to hear all that. We finished the pumpkin and it came out great!
My next hurdle is Halloween itself. STBXW had agreed to give me separate time to trick or treat with S10 by myself (I really don't feel comfortable going with her extended family), so let's see if she still honors that. And then the next day she's having a knee operation that will leave her laid up in bed for a few days. MIL will be in the house to help care for her - she never asked me, not that I'm sure what kind of help I could be in this environment. I have nothing against her family, but I'm not sure what she's been telling them about me, and MIL might try to accuse me of something.
I emailed my L and told her to please move on things. I can't do this in house S any more. It's absolute hell. I want to be finished with this by Christmas so I can celebrate it as a new beginning in my life.
And BTW, my anniversary is next week. I expect it'll go unmentioned.
Holding,
I am confused. Let's say you feel like you are 25% to blame for the dead marriage and she is 75% to blame for the dead marriage.
Let's say she sees it as 75% you and 25% her.
What does it change? Either way aren't you still getting divorced? Why argue over something that is irrelevant at this point?
Why don't you be the bigger person and just agree you were both equally responsible for the falling apart of the marriage?
I agree, no reason to argue. 25%, 50% or whatever I don't see it mattering in the grand scheme of things and just seems to be more counter-productive than productive. Just validate with how she feels and move on. Is any of this getting you closer to your goals?
Why don't you be the bigger person and just agree you were both equally responsible for the falling apart of the marriage?
LH19,
I'd swear that my XW and Holding's wife are the same person. Your post reminded me of the old saying, "You've mistaken my kindness for weakness." I suspect Holding's wife responds to kindness the same way my XW does; she'd use it against him at any opportunity. The only way I was able to get to place where I could interact reasonably with my XW was to SHOW her that if she started anything that she'd have to suffer through a sh*t storm from h3ll.
You wouldn't understand unless you've been through it; they live in a fantasy world that has it's own rules and morality. Everything becomes distorted and turned against the oppressor (i.e. the spouse and anyone else standing in the way). I'm a very laid-back kind of guy, but I got to the point where I realized that my XW would just take advantage of any shred of niceness that I'd extend to her. Maybe a better man could've done better with her, but I honestly don't think so.
LH and J9, I was about to type out a justification, but you know what? Y'all are right.
Arguing about the percentage was pointless. I got caught up in the moment.
J9, you asked about my goals. Well, one of my new goals is to not be afraid of STBXW and how she will inevitably rage as this M unravels. I try to stand my ground, but I realize that it does let her have some power over me in that she can get me to engage in an argument. I really just need to walk away.
This is so hard. I know one of my issues is emotional availability, but I can't work on that in this sitch. Dealing with her feels like it's turning me into Spock.
I want to make sure I have this right. You are both living under the same roof. You have divided monthly expenses? Why is she mailing off the CC payments, if they affect your credit score?
She blamed me again for preventing her from moving out. I showed her where the door was and invited her to leave. She then asked why I wasn't the one to move out. I said since she wanted this D, she should be the one to leave. She said I was as much to blame for the death of the M as she was. I told her I had issues and things to account for, but they were not 50%. She got really mad that I refused to accept 50% and wanted to know how I could say that. I told her I wasn't going to help her beat the dead horse of the M any more
This has been talked to death, has it not? And, if this was said in the presence of S10, then shame of both adults. There is absolutely nothing positive that comes from this topic, so stop it......stop explaining to her......stop trying to convince or persuade her that you are right.......just stop.
She said she wouldn't, she wanted to know how I could possibly claim I didn't own 50% of the issues. So I went in my room and locked the door. I could hear her yell from the other room "So you're just going to run off and not talk to me, like you did for our whole M."
So, whenever a bully picks on S10, he will know to run hide in his room? Look, this action does nothing, and she stands outside screaming at you.
My next hurdle is Halloween itself. STBXW had agreed to give me separate time to trick or treat with S10 by myself (I really don't feel comfortable going with her extended family), so let's see if she still honors that. And then the next day she's having a knee operation that will leave her laid up in bed for a few days. MIL will be in the house to help care for her - she never asked me, not that I'm sure what kind of help I could be in this environment. I have nothing against her family, but I'm not sure what she's been telling them about me, and MIL might try to accuse me of something.
Don't assume anything about your in-laws. Be relaxed, polite, and Fonzie cool.
I really just need to walk away.
Boom! IMO that is strength. Don't let her suck you in to an argument which she then spins it on you and makes you out to be the bad guy. I think it is a good opportunity to establish a boundary around. Let her know that if she wants to talk you will be all ears and validate like a champion. If she wants to approach you and yell, scream, etc. that this is not really a conversation and I will walk away. If/when she calms down and wants to discuss you will be all ears.
Don't take the bait, she [censored] you in and her mind it probably just continues to remind her in her head why she wants out. I would also say that if your arguing that probably means you still care.
Doodler's got my back! But seriously, I think he understands the dynamic here maybe better than I'm able to describe. My kindness would be used against me (she already tried to do that with the waiver of title). She'd soften me up, and then strike when it suits her.
The trick is, there are times when it's worth standing my ground, and times when it's worth walking away. Everyone here seems pretty divided on this. When does standing your ground switch into being dragged down to their level? If treating me with disrespect is a boundary for me, is walking away a sign of weakness?
If treating me with disrespect is a boundary for me, is walking away a sign of weakness?
To me it depends on how how you handle it.If she starts raising her voice to you and you look her in the eye and with a calm voice and say "W I will not continue to have the conversation with you if you don't lower you voice and communicate with me like an adult". If she refuses to then you can just walk away.
Now if you get angry or upset and run away and lock yourself in the bedroom. That makes you look weak. IMO.
When does standing your ground switch into being dragged down to their level? If treating me with disrespect is a boundary for me, is walking away a sign of weakness?
Holding,
Have you ever seen the look in someone's eyes when you know they've been pushed to the limit? You don't question them, because you know what's coming. They don't even have to say anything; their demeanor says it all. You need to be that person. No more fear; no more running away.
I want to make sure I have this right. You are both living under the same roof. You have divided monthly expenses? Why is she mailing off the CC payments, if they affect your credit score?
That's correct. She pays certain bills, and I pay others (especially the mortgage). This kind of mutually assured destruction has worked so far. The only way to really protect myself completely is for me to pay all bills and have her reimburse me. But I don't really want to be dependent on her paying me back. She's unreliable. If this goes on much longer, I might see about an alternate arrangement. I'm open to suggestions.
This has been talked to death, has it not? And, if this was said in the presence of S10, then shame of both adults. There is absolutely nothing positive that comes from this topic, so stop it......stop explaining to her......stop trying to convince or persuade her that you are right.......just stop.
This didn't occur in front of S10. He was in his room at this point. And I didn't try to explain it to her. I knew it was a pointless discussion. That's why I walked away. But I agree, in retrospect, it was a pointless line in the sand.
So, whenever a bully picks on S10, he will know to run hide in his room? Look, this action does nothing, and she stands outside screaming at you.
S10 was not in the room at this time (but he did come to my door after the argument was over). Should I have engaged her in the discussion of the percentages after all? How can I respond in a way that will show her I won't be screamed at, without engaging her further in the argument? Calm responses are really difficult after the discussion gets to this point. I'm honestly confused.
Don't assume anything about your in-laws. Be relaxed, polite, and Fonzie cool.
I'll try. Thanks Sandi.
H....you can stand you ground on what your issue is (for example not signing the papers) but not accept her yelling and screaming at you when she doesn't like it. IMO the two are mutually exclusive. Let her know it will no longer be tolerated, establish a boundary around it and what you will do if she chooses not to respect your boundary. That boundary could be that you will no longer stand there and listen to her spew.
IMO she wants to pick a fight and get a reaction out of you because maybe that is what you have always done? When this happens maybe it re-enforces in her mind why she wants to get a D?
Now if you get angry or upset and run away and lock yourself in the bedroom. That makes you look weak. IMO.
Well, I could feel myself getting emotional, and the talk was headed in a bad direction, so I decided to end the talk. I didn't "run away". I locked the door because her emotions were going over the top. Am I scared of her? Yes, in a way I'm afraid she'll assault me and then call the cops on me. I don't put anything past her at this point. Last night I actually slept with the door locked and a hunting knife nearby. There are guns in the house. Ain't marriage grand?
Have you ever seen the look in someone's eyes when you know they've been pushed to the limit? You don't question them, because you know what's coming. They don't even have to say anything; their demeanor says it all. You need to be that person. No more fear; no more running away.
Got it. Thanks. This is a big step for me.
IMO she wants to pick a fight and get a reaction out of you because maybe that is what you have always done? When this happens maybe it re-enforces in her mind why she wants to get a D?
TBH, she has ALWAYS tried to get a reaction from me in our disagreements, and for the most part I didn't give in. So she's just trying more of the same. I do think she wants some emotional bursts from me, maybe not to justify her actions, but to feed her self-centered ego.
Really, she's just very spoiled and used to getting her way. Her episodes of acting out mostly coincide with when she doesn't get her way. They're temper tantrums.
Sounds like it H, I just wouldn't take the bait. Your better than that. I know your probably beat down and tired of it but I think it's time for you stand your ground, put in some boundaries and take control. I think once you let her know it will no longer be tolerated you might feel some of the perceived power shift.
When I first joined the board a read a lot of the following sitch from Robx who Sandi posted on quite a bit. It resignated to me because he had young children as well and a W that was disrespectful to him. Maybe you will find some useful information as I know I did.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1695484#Post1695484
Hi Holding,
Sorry to hear about your weekend challenges, that is particularly tough on S10, for his benefit the two of you should probably make an agreement not to discuss *anything* contentious in his presence. Having him bear witness to you two arguing is not going to be good for him if you two aren't productive arguers (i.e. calm and respectful)
If W is having a temper tantrum the "hierarchy of strength" is as follows:
1) Stay in her presence and maintain your composure. This is the hardest thing to do, therefore it takes the most strength. I heard a talk once where the person asked "if you were at a restaurant with your spouse and you wanted to make them instantly very angry, would you know what to do or say?" For most people the answer is "definitely" -- she knows what buttons to push. (The other half of that was "if you wanted to make them feel loved would you know what to do or say?" and that tends to be more elusive)
Staying in her presence doesn't mean you have to tolerate anything. You can just calmly repeat "I will not engage in conversation with you if you ________. If you want to discuss this calmly, I'm happy to talk to you." Lather, rinse, repeat.
2) Announce to her that you're going to leave the conversation and why (calmly). Then give her a chance to continue the conversation on your terms. If she doesn't abide by your boundaries, then you leave, and explain that you told her what you needed, she didn't do it, and now you're leaving the conversation.
3) Explain to her that you're going to leave the conversation, but don't give her a chance to correct her behavior, just leave.
4) Leave the conversation without explaining to her why you're doing it.
5) Let her get your emotions up and lose your temper.
Evaluate where you are on the spectrum -- if you're at 3 or 4, don't try to just shoot for 1 because chances are you won't be able to do it. Just try to go one notch up the scale until that feels comfortable, and then try to go one more notch up. Be patient with yourself, changing behavior is very hard and takes time and repetition, but eventually it becomes automatic.
Acc
Great info, Acc! Thanks! I bounce between 2 and 3. I'll focus more on being a strong 2. When it comes to 1, well, that'll take a lot of work. Sometimes she will just not SHUT THE HELL UP.
J9, I am putting in boundaries, but it's hard. Thanks for the link on Robx's thread. It's hard to tell if the guy ended up recon'ing his M or went through with the D. Do you know?
12.22.2009
She wanted to talk to me in what was our bedroom, she closed the door behind her, I was just standing in front of her and she started crying. She misses me, she loves me, she wants to come back, she is sorry for everything she has done, she knows she caused the bulk of the problems, she wasn't "well" (referring to some depression she was dealing with and still is), asks me if I still love her.
10.19.2010
Fast forward to today, we see each other regularly, we date, I will not become Mr.Wussy man ever gain, a trip is being planned for the winter months, somewhere hot/tropical and I'm being treated (another new experience), we go to marriage counseling, my wife pays for it (and it isn't cheap), she says it's a worthwhile investment in someone she loves and doesn't mind paying for it (which is good to hear), she painfully admitted the truth of what she had done (re: affairs) to her parents and that started a slew of other issues, she ended up staying with some other family the weekend she told them the truth because they kicked her out of their home (that was unexpected).
Well in the end it seemed that Robx had the final day on the relationship. What he did with it, we'll probably never know...
Thanks B...I couldn't find it. Sandi you out there??? Any insight on what happened with Robx and his W?
Thanks B...I couldn't find it. Sandi you out there??? Any insight on what happened with Robx and his W?
Cadet posted this about a year and a half ago...
Try searching with google. Robx :divorcebusting
Just for the record, Robx did not save his marriage and had some ideas that I would NOT endorse.
For instance dating before you are divorced.
Interesting. I assume Cadet has a source for saying Robx didn't save his M. I haven't seen it though. TBH, it sounded like the dude no longer wanted her at the end.
Doodler, you said your XW was a carbon copy of mine. How did coming out of that R affected your view of the kind of woman you want next in your life?
Interesting. I assume Cadet has a source for saying Robx didn't save his M. I haven't seen it though. TBH, it sounded like the dude no longer wanted her at the end.
Doodler, you said your XW was a carbon copy of mine. How did coming out of that R affected your view of the kind of woman you want next in your life?
Holding,
Yes, Cadet said that Robx didn't save his marriage.
I really haven't thought much about the kind of woman I'd want; I'm very busy right now and I'm happy being single for the time being. I know what I'd avoid, but other than what I'd consider to be "bad" traits, I don't have many specifics except for intelligence. Intelligence is important to me; I need to be with someone who can debate Sam Harris's seemingly misguided belief that free will is an illusion and who'd enjoy reading David Foster Wallace.
Hmmm...I just started my list of good traits. There you go.
There was a board member who had posted a lot of information about emotional & mental abuse, does anyone remember who it was? My mind has drawn a blank.
Thanks for the link on Robx's thread. It's hard to tell if the guy ended up recon'ing his M or went through with the D. Do you know?
His MR had reconciled a good while before he left the board, as far as I knew. I did not know it was lost, till not so long ago when Cadet informed me......and, I don't know who wanted out of the M at the end, b\c he was gone from the board. I remember him making a huge turnover in himself when he said he decided he would not be bullied anymore. It didn't take long before his spoiled, manipulating WW started pursuing him, b\c he changed his entire approach. So, what happened at the end of their M, IDK. However, there are several people who currently post on the board whose marriages were not saved. Their advice should not be discredited on whether or not their M was save.
Back to the issue of your W screaming at you. I am reminded of something Michele said..... I may not be able to tell you what works but I can tell you what doesn't work. IMHO, if you wait till you start feeling emotional and
then walk into the bedroom and lock the door....it will look weak to her. It appears to her as if you are running for cover from her.
The point (especially since she wants a reaction) is to remain very calm, show confidence and self control. Do nothing to fan the flames. IMO, it would actually be better to leave the house, rather than locking yourself in the bedroom. Maybe it would take some wind out of her. At least, maybe she would calm down and the kids wouldn't have to listen to her rage. Even if you have to get a hotel room for the night, it makes a statement that you don't have to hang around to tolerate that behavior. (And she doesn't need to know what you did when you were gone all night from home!)
Here's the thing. If she has always bullied\abused\manipulated you through bad behavior.....you may not be able to stop her that easily. Personally, I think men in this type of environment should stop trying to save their relationship with a bully. As with Robx, it frees him when he decides enough is enough.
Has she ever screamed and threw fits at the kids?
I really haven't thought much about the kind of woman I'd want; I'm very busy right now and I'm happy being single for the time being. I know what I'd avoid, but other than what I'd consider to be "bad" traits, I don't have many specifics except for intelligence. Intelligence is important to me; I need to be with someone who can debate Sam Harris's seemingly misguided belief that free will is an illusion and who'd enjoy reading David Foster Wallace.
Good start! I feel like my next R will be with someone TOTALLY different from STBXW.
However, there are several people who currently post on the board whose marriages were not saved. Their advice should not be discredited on whether or not their M was save.
Very true. It wasn't my point to discredit anyone. It's just nice to see a good success story now and then.
The point (especially since she wants a reaction) is to remain very calm, show confidence and self control. Do nothing to fan the flames. IMO, it would actually be better to leave the house, rather than locking yourself in the bedroom. Maybe it would take some wind out of her. At least, maybe she would calm down and the kids wouldn't have to listen to her rage. Even if you have to get a hotel room for the night, it makes a statement that you don't have to hang around to tolerate that behavior. (And she doesn't need to know what you did when you were gone all night from home!)
Yeah, I start out very calm, but remaining calm while the assault continues is the challenge. Getting a hotel every time this happens is not in the budget, but I can leave for a while and wait until later (midnight maybe) to come back. The funny thing is, I'd already left the house for a few hours earlier that same day to escape just this scenario. Maybe an overnight stay would send a different message though.
Here's the thing. If she has always bullied\abused\manipulated you through bad behavior.....you may not be able to stop her that easily. Personally, I think men in this type of environment should stop trying to save their relationship with a bully. As with Robx, it frees him when he decides enough is enough.
Yeah, I've accepted that this thing won't be saved. She's gone for good, and this isn't healthy. I need to make it through the D process with my self respect and strength. That's my goal at this point.
Has she ever screamed and threw fits at the kids?
Oh god yes. All the time. For years.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Has she ever screamed and threw fits at the kids?
Oh god yes. All the time. For years.
Ah.....so that says it is not just a problem between the two of you. If she uses the same bad behavior toward her children, then it is a problem in "her". Sounds as if it has been an unhealthy environment for a long time. Is she trying to get a reaction from them, too?
On second thought, you may have to take the boys with you when you leave the house.
Have you ever considered recording her whenever she goes into these rages? I mean, if there's a chance she could become physical with the kids.........or with you.......then you'd have something to show how she acts when she's angry, if needed.
TBH, it sounded like the dude no longer wanted her at the end.
It happens. To this day I would personally love to have my old W back. But here's the thing- the person my XW is now and has been for the last 5 years is not the sweet, loving woman I was married to. I'm not saying she's mean or cold or anything, she's just a completely different person. I hardly know the "new" person and certainly don't want to be married to her. My old W died during that transition during and after BD. She's gone and (I believe) never coming back. My confusion after BD was in thinking she was still in there somewhere and if I just did or said the right things then she would come back out again.
I would also love to have my family life back again. But that too is gone for good. Two of my three kids are grown and moved out now, and the 3rd is a high schooler and has become quite independent. I'm no longer the "family man" I was for so long. I loved being a family man! But life rolls ever-onward and our roles and responsibilities change whether we like it or not.
This is the hard truth of DB'ing- most LBS's long for a W and M that is gone and will never return. The question is do you want a new R with that changed person? For many the answer is "no". But it takes months or even years to figure that out.
AnotherStander,
That is what I am learning coming up on year one of BD. I am definitely a family, which is why I feel even more alone at times. I canbdo without a bunch of people in my life, but my family is everything. Because I base all of my decisions in how it affects my family.
And like you I just know that my old W is in there somewhere just afraid to come on out. But I can't restart a MR with this new version of her. There is nothing abiut this person I would want for a girlfriend let alone a W. Which is why I am seriously just wanting to walk away. By the way whatever happened to your W?
Is she trying to get a reaction from them, too?
Yes, but it's usually to comply with her will:
- It's time to leave and the kids aren't ready? COMMENCE RAGE!
- She's planned this event for the kids and one of them doesn't want to go? COMMENCE RAGE!
- She's having a hard day and the kids are misbehaving: COMMENCE RAGE!
Granted, this doesn't happen every week, but probably once a month. I've always gotten it a lot more from her than they do.
She doesn't get physical with the kids. She did with me once, about 7 years ago. I should have been more proactive back then.
I think rage and physical violence are the R languages she learned as a child. One time after BD she told me she'd wished I'd hit her instead of becoming emotionally distant, because at least she knew how to hit back.
On second thought, you may have to take the boys with you when you leave the house.
Oh god, that would bring on WWIII from her if I did that. If it does get that bad, I'll do it though.
Have you ever considered recording her whenever she goes into these rages? I mean, if there's a chance she could become physical with the kids.........or with you.......then you'd have something to show how she acts when she's angry, if needed.
Yes! My VAR is on the way. I wish I'd recorded that time she was beating on the MBR door.
My old W died during that transition during and after BD. She's gone and (I believe) never coming back.
Somewhere, maybe on these boards, I heard someone say that their XW killed their W. That's something I keep thinking about. It makes this easier for me, for some reason.
I'm no longer the "family man" I was for so long. I loved being a family man!
This will be a hard transition for me as well. My STBXW has killed the family. I guess I'll be able to forgive her for that at some point, I just don't see it now.
And like you I just know that my old W is in there somewhere just afraid to come on out. But I can't restart a MR with this new version of her. There is nothing abiut this person I would want for a girlfriend let alone a W. Which is why I am seriously just wanting to walk away.
Tread, I think AS's point was that the old W wasn't really in there any more. She'll probably never come out even if she is. Walking away is a personal decision that each of us may eventually struggle with. I'm not telling you to walk away, but after fighting for our M so long, we might reach that decision.
Yes! My VAR is on the way. I wish I'd recorded that time she was beating on the MBR door.
How about a recording app for your phone while waiting for the VAR? Just in case..
How about a recording app for your phone while waiting for the VAR? Just in case..
I've got that too. I just need to remember to use it in the heat of the moment. The challenge is to activate it without being seen. She's already questioned me before about if I was recording her (when I wasn't). Makes me wonder if she's been recording me. I assume that she is.
Just a general update on my sitch: Last night the handoff for Halloween was complicated. It was raining and STBXW's plans with her family were delayed. I was flexible and pushed back my pickup time by an hour and a half to give them time once the rain stopped. By the time I wanted to pick up S10 from her, they were out in the neighborhood and she had conveniently left her phone at SIL's house "to charge". Fortunately SIL had her own phone on her, so I was able to coordinate with her. S14 decided to stay with them and not come with me and S10. But S10 and I had a good time back in our neighborhood, though it was late. I hope the rest of my life won't be like this, with antagonistic handoffs
Afterwards, STBXW came back to the house with S14 and MIL. (STBXW's knee surgery is today, so MIL is staying here to help her with recovery.) When MIL walked in, I could feel the tension - she did not hug or kiss me hello like she's always done. I still smiled and said hello. (Sandi, I'm trying to be the Fonz.)
Last night I overheard them talking and it sounded like MIL is supporting STBXW in not paying the late fees on the bills. I told her I'm still not paying half of them. It will cost me about $75, and I realize it isn't that much to keep the peace, but I'd feel like such a pushover for allowing it. So I guess this is a bluff I'm just gonna have to call. Gonna be a rough month. Still, I'll continue to pay my bills as I'm supposed to. For the bills that have my name on them, I might make a supplemental payment to get to the full amount, and then I'll just add half that into the imaginary column of money she owes me in the D settlement.
This morning I told MIL good morning, though it felt awkward. STBXW was in a rotten mood toward me. Getting the kids ready for school in the morning seems to be a competition between us now. I'll admit, it's nice in a way to see her caring for them (something she's never really done), but it feels like a slap in the face that she's doing it now, after SO MANY YEARS of not doing it (role reversal, anyone?).
I told her good luck on her operation when I left the house. She dryly said thanks.
When MIL walked in, I could feel the tension - she did not hug or kiss me hello like she's always done.
Holding,
I think unwritten rule #39 is, "Hit on your MIL if she's staying in your house." I think the reasoning for doing that is it takes everyone's mind off the marital troubles and offers a distraction (even if unpleasant).
H...it sounds like a miserable experience with your MIL staying with you especially as you are going through this. I hated it when my MIL came to town, she always came for a week and was worthless the entire time she was there. Slept all day and stayed up all night renting pay per view movies on my dime. I think I would spending a lot of time by myself
On a serious note be confident and don't make them feel like you are a guest in your home. F that.
I like the Fonz analogy...be cool, nothing bothers H because he is confident and the man!
Oh and if she is hot....follow rule #39.
You guys crack me up! I literally LOL'ed while eating lunch out. It's a shame most of us will never be able to meet up in person or connect outside of this forum. (I'd love to know why PM's were disabled. It seems they used to be available here.)
J9, yes, "miserable experience" sums it up well, but I'm used to that by now. I'm actually concerned that STBXW and MIL might decide that they want the MBR, and come home one day to find that they've moved all my stuff out. In that case, I'll have to move into STBXW's current room, with the $2000 new mattress she bought for herself. (On second thought, I couldn't do that. She's got this stinky @$$ perfume that she sprays in there incessantly. It smells like the bordello at an old folks home.)
Holding,
I saw on Tate's thread you asked him why he wants to save his marriage.
Your Ws are similar so I am going to ask you the same question.
LH, fair question.
As of a week ago, I don't want to save my M any more. Are you seeing something that makes you think I'm still trying at this point?
The ugly side of my STBXW is simply abhorrent. And even if I could get my old W back, I don't think I'd be able to slip back into that old R, having learned so much about my NGS tendencies.
You posted the following on 10/26/2017:
I've been thinking about things a lot lately, especially whether the MR is worth saving.
Not judging just wondering if things look a lot different when your looking at someone else situation.
True. I posted this later in the same paragraph:
I've come to realize this M is not a healthy place for me to be. STBXW is not a person I can continue this journey with. I need to move on with my life.
Looking at others' sitches can be enlightening. But I would never dare poke someone else with a stick I hadn't already poked myself with
I met with my IC last night. I hadn't seen her in 2 weeks, so I had to fill her in on everything that's happened (wife's rage and manipulation, me finally realizing it's over and accepting it).
In the middle of one of my stories, IC said "She's being so emotionally manipulative, like using every trick in the book. How do you hold it together?" I took this as a compliment, and it helped me feel validated for how strong I've been in standing up to her. Y'all put me through the ringer here (which I appreciate), but I do think I'm doing a good job.
Last night STBXW came home from her knee surgery. She was on crutches and a little loopy from her meds. I actually felt bad for her. I asked her how her operation was. She said it went ok, but she'll never be able to run again (she'd wanted to do a triathlon). I frowned when she said this and felt sorry for her. I guess I could've verbally sympathized, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it. It's nice to know I can still feel some degree of sympathy for her though.
I looked at her sitting on the sofa, with her leg up, and her mom tending to her. They discussed how she needs to get a friend to help watch her in a few days after MIL leaves. This is the life she wants.
Last night STBXW came home from her knee surgery.
Holding,
You see, our wives are alike. My wife had major neck surgery shortly before our separation.
I was at the hospital before her surgery and after her surgery. When her parents arrived, I went home to tend to the boys. When I went back to the hospital, the OM was in her room talking to her parents (her parents thought he was "just" a friend). As soon as I saw the OM, I went home.
My wife's parents brought her home later that day. When she got home she requested that she sleep in the MBR and she wanted me to sleep on the couch. (She was sleeping in the guest room, but her parents where staying in the guest room.) I told her she wasn't sleeping in the MBR regardless of her recent surgery. (I was in f*ck you mode.) The next day I told her she had seven days to get out of the house. She pushed-back because of her neck. I had no sympathy; she was out of the house eight days later. I was a b@srtard, but the OM appearing at the hospital was ridiculously outrageous.
Doodler,
You did the right thing. OM being there showed just how little respect she had for you. And still demanded you leave the MBR. OM never offered her a place to stay to watch over her. Did you tell her parents who OM really waa?
Did you tell her parents who OM really waa?
Tread,
I didn't tell them, they knew something was wrong when I walked up to the door of my wife's hospital room and then walked away. Of course, I'm sure my XW told them that he was just a friend. I haven't talked to them since my XW moved out, but I think they've probably come to the conclusion that my XW's story wasn't exactly true (I've heard a few things through the grape vine).
Doodler, thanks for sharing that story. Man, that's harsh - having the OM visit her in the hospital. It took a lot of b@lls for you to make her leave so soon after the surgery, but I'm glad you did it! Being in f*ck you mode definitely helps in moments like that.
Ok, so here's a general question for everyone. Has any forum member here ever gotten a D and then later recon'd with their Ex? I'm not looking for stories of people you might know (I think 25 has a few like that), but actual members or former members.
Hopefully it's not a divisive question. I realize a success story here is for the LBS to be confident and happy in their future, not necessarily a recon. I also understand that some people may just drop off the board and never come back to report.
We got to solicitors, even had payoffs sorted, moved out of home and then recon.
So not the big D then recon - but still along the 'right' tracks I suppose
Doodler, thanks for sharing that story. Man, that's harsh - having the OM visit her in the hospital. It took a lot of b@lls for you to make her leave so soon after the surgery, but I'm glad you did it! Being in f*ck you mode definitely helps in moments like that.
Ok, so here's a general question for everyone. Has any forum member here ever gotten a D and then later recon'd with their Ex? I'm not looking for stories of people you might know (I think 25 has a few like that), but actual members or former members.
Hopefully it's not a divisive question. I realize a success story here is for the LBS to be confident and happy in their future, not necessarily a recon. I also understand that some people may just drop off the board and never come back to report.
Yes, it's been done.
My parents were divorced and remarried each other a couple of years later. Not the ending you're looking for, but their second marriage lasted about two years.
Their reasons for reconciling largely involved me.
I realize you asked for personal experiences, but I did live it.
Has any forum member here ever gotten a D and then later recon'd with their Ex?
Holding,
I'm sure there are some who've reconciled after divorce; I read somewhere that 10% of couples that divorce ultimately remarry.
The reason I'm responding to your question is because I assume the motivation for asking the question is to get some idea of the potential for reconciling with your wife. You haven't physically separated yet; you'll be surprised how quickly feelings can change after separation. After my separation it only took me a few days to realize just how badly my candy @ss had been bullied and badgered by my wife. Up until that point I would've gladly reconciled.
The reason I mention that is because I suspect the problem with reconciliation is often because the LBS doesn't want anything to do with the ex-spouse. In my case, I'm 99.8% certain that I can't reconcile with my XW. Why? It's not because I wouldn't love her (I'll always love her); it's because if I detected anything approaching a lack of respect, I'd send her packing. I honestly don't think she could last an hour with me before I'd boot her out the door. Knowing that, it wouldn't be right for me to entertain reconciliation.
You'll probably feel very differently as soon as you have some physical and temporal space between you and your wife.
Ok, so here's a general question for everyone. Has any forum member here ever gotten a D and then later recon'd with their Ex?
Holding I thought you were no longer interested in reconciliation?
Benni, thanks for the input. You have a great success story, but I am asking about actual post-D recons. Please don't think I'm trying to discount your sitch though!
Ginger, do you have any specifics? Maybe a member's name we can look up?
East, thanks for sharing that. I'm sorry the remarriage only lasted 2 years.
Doodler and LH, I actually am NOT considering recon, though I can see how you might've thought that. I guess I should've been more clear why I asked. Several people IRL have asked me if I would take STBXW back later, after D. One friend even warned me that she will be back. But I can't see EVER wanting her back, she is toxic and not anyone I want in my life. But since people ask me this question all the time, I've been curious HOW they could take someone back after something like D happens.
I've read here that D is just a piece of paper. I disagree. That's like saying M is just a piece of paper. D is a major, life -altering decision. It's an announcement to the world that your M is over. It's often a contentious and ugly struggle with someone you used to love. How do people ever get past that and recon?
So that's what I'm curious about. And if there's a thread here that I could read about it, where someone went into the reasons they were able to take the X back, that would be really interesting to me.
Ok, so here's a general question for everyone. Has any forum member here ever gotten a D and then later recon'd with their Ex?
Yeah there are some members here who did it. RandyH and LCR to mention two. Randy R after 3 years and LCR after 10...was that what you were looking for
also search for dday101798.. The timeline was shorter there... Started piecing 17 months after S (and 6 months after D was final).
Yes, Btrow, that's exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks!!!
Holding,
I have a relative(not on these boards as far as I know) that was a LBH with two kids, found out his WW was having an affair with a co worker, kicked her out of the marital house. He never filed for divorce for lack of money, they were separated for almost 3 years and during that time the relative made a better version of himself, a much better version that was and is a great dad! HE started dating another woman while his WW moved in with the AP that turned her to drugs.
Around the 2 year mark of separation the WW started to come out of the fog and realized her greener pasture wasn't so green and started to really miss her old life and especially her kids. She left the AP and entered a treatment facility to clean her life up and reached out to my relative asking for forgiveness and wanting to come home. My relative said no at first but over the next 6 months he warmed up to the having her back. It started out with some "dating" and time with the kids and then she moved back in.
They have now been back together for about 6 years and are a model couple and family within my extended family. I'm not sure if that necessarily qualifies with what you asked but they would have been divorced if my relative had the money, he was done!
And like you I just know that my old W is in there somewhere just afraid to come on out.
Why would she be afraid to come out?
.
dusty,
I'm curious to know what happened to the woman your relative started dating. Did she get kicked to the curb when W returned? I can't really see myself getting rid of a loyal woman for a WWW who abandoned the family and is know a former drug addict.
WWW? Acronym for Wickedly Wayward Witch?
Sandi,
That was a typo...LOL
dusty,
I'm curious to know what happened to the woman your relative started dating. Did she get kicked to the curb when W returned? I can't really see myself getting rid of a loyal woman for a WWW who abandoned the family and is know a former drug addict.
Tread, The other woman didn't get kicked to the curb, they broke it off before the WW started coming back. The other woman has moved on with her own family and seems to have a great life. My relatives wife did all the hard work to regain the trust she lost with her actions, it has been a tough road but she is a changed person(for the better) She has been clean since they've been back together.
I've read here that D is just a piece of paper. I disagree. That's like saying M is just a piece of paper. D is a major, life -altering decision. It's an announcement to the world that your M is over. It's often a contentious and ugly struggle with someone you used to love. How do people ever get past that and recon?
The reason we say it's just a piece of paper is because by the time you end up in court, your M is long dead. It really ended at BD. It's like Cadet says now and then, most LBS's are D'd at BD, they just don't know it yet. The actual D is just a formality. All of those things you mention about announcing it to the world and such, that's already taken place before you ever find your way to court.
As for how people get past that and recon, well a large part of it is because the reason two people are together to begin with is because there is a magnetic bond there. They were attracted to each other more than anyone else in the dating pool. So much so that they decided to get M'd. So despite BD and all the bad blood over it, you are still her "type". After all the dust settles and the negativity surrounding BD, S and D has dissipated, you may find yourselves drawn together again. Of the D'd people I know that later reconciled, it took years. And it wasn't "hey let's try to force this to work for the kids" or whatever, it was "wow, you're pretty darned attractive and cute and funny and that spark is still there after all this time".
where someone went into the reasons they were able to take the X back
In the couples I'm familiar with there were no particular reasons. They just fell in love all over again. It happened slowly- they started talking, then going out kind of as friends, then officially dating, then moving back in. Only one of the couples I know has actually remarried though.
AS, thanks on the additional input on recons post-D. I suppose things could change for me in a few years, I just don't see it happening at all, right now.
Btrow, I wasn't able to find any of LCR's threads, but the others were helpful. Here are some links for anyone else who's interested:
RandyH's topics:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&view=started&id=1283 dday101798's topics (this was a real interesting read for me):
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&view=started&id=21626 _______
Starting a new thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2767408#Post2767408