My wife of 9 years, (together 16 years, 3 kids - D13, S7, S4) and the love of my life suddenly called it quits about 6 months ago. Up to about 2 years ago we were as tight as could be, and while there were no big relationship issues to say we had over come throughout our 16 years... we have endured some trying conditions that could test the strongest of relationships. Like most I never in my wildest dreams could of imagined her leaving.
We had hit a rough spot that as she puts it "rocked her foundation" and subsequently rocked the foundation of our relationship. I own my own business and am for the most part the sole provider for the household, at the time of the incident I was putting in over 100 hours a week for over 2 months with out a single day off... and prior to that I was averaging 60 hours a week (I'm in the construction industry). I had gotten home early one evening and was telling my wife that I was going to take the next day off and planned on having a buddy over to help me build a tree house for my daughter. My wife contested right away, said no way are we building a tree house till my daughter had her own room, (all three kids shared a room at the time, the plan was to convert a 3 walled office space in our house, into her bedroom). The tree house was a 1 day project, the bedroom was a 2 weak project. While I agree with the importance of my daughter having her own room I did not have 2 weeks to dedicate at the time, but I could take a day off and do the tree house. Not only was time depicting what I could accomplish, but the tree house seemed like a relaxing project that would not feel like work on my only day off... where as the room conversation is what I do on a daily basis (far from a day off).
I explained this to my wife but she was having no part of it, this was highly frustrating for me and I was already at the end of my rope after working 2 months straight with out a day off. So when my wife referred to our house as a (censored) hole, I was deeply offended as it takes all those hours I put in to keep this roof over our heads, and any free time I have after family time goes to maintaining/improving our home, I gave up all hobbies, hanging out with friends, etc dedicating all free time to my family long ago. So my response was not the best. I told her if she is not happy with what I provide, I will stay home and take care of the kids/house... and that she can go see what it takes to provide.
This started our biggest argument to that point, I did not build the treehouse, instead took the day to hangout with the kids and rest. After about a week of reciprocal silent treatment, we decided to see a MC. After two sessions which mainly focused on the single incident we seemed good, (at least I thought)....
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Clyde,
Sorry you are here. Reminds me of my buddy whose w said she was done when he didn’t remember to call the lawn sprinkler guy. Obviously this was the straw that broke the camel’s back, tragically. You are a good guy, a provider, a good dad, no major vices, right? Sounds like there were issues related to the amount of time you spent with your w, that maybe she felt ignored or not paid attention to, or prioritized? Maybe you weren’t the best listener? How were you in the romance department? How was your sex life? Are you still living together? Has she filed for divorce? She was a SAHM? Did she have unfulfilled dreams and desires? Is there an OM in the picture? The more we know, the more we can help. You may feel really alone right now, but there are a lot of us in the same boat.
no big relationship issues to say we had over come throughout our 16 years... we have endured some trying conditions that could test the strongest of relationships. Like most I never in my wildest dreams could of imagined her leaving.
Can you give some more details on this? I have a hard time balancing the 'no issues' with 'extremely trying conditions'.
I own my own business and am for the most part the sole provider for the household, at the time of the incident I was putting in over 100 hours a week for over 2 months with out a single day off... and prior to that I was averaging 60 hours a week (I'm in the construction industry). I had gotten home early one evening and was telling my wife that I was going to take the next day off and planned on having a buddy over to help me build a tree house for my daughter.
Not saying this is right or wrong, but I can see that if my ex had been out of the house for >14 hours a day every dqay and then came home to spend time with her buddy instead of doing the jobs that needed to be done, Id be pissed too. In her mind, the treehouse was a luxury item while the bedroom was a need. I imagine youve talked through this, but, just my thoughts. More below.
I was already at the end of my rope after working 2 months straight with out a day off.
I think this may really be the root of the problem. Im grumpy after a 9 or 10 hour day. Let alone a 14 or 15 hour day. And then multiply that by 50-60 days in a row? I imagine that you were far less helpful or kind or involved in the family than you think you were. Not judging you, just pointing out that it's likely that this wasnt just 'a bad day'.
So when my wife referred to our house as a (censored) hole, I was deeply offended as it takes all those hours I put in to keep this roof over our heads, and any free time I have after family time goes to maintaining/improving our home
You mention that you are the only one working. So what does your W do all day every day? My assumption is that she is cleaning or cooking or running errands or transporting your children. Do you think this is 'lesser' work? Do you consider you and W a team?
I gave up all hobbies, hanging out with friends, etc dedicating all free time to my family long ago. So my response was not the best. I told her if she is not happy with what I provide, I will stay home and take care of the kids/house... and that she can go see what it takes to provide.
Do you see WHY this isnt the best? You are basically saying that her contributions are the lesser of the two. Like only the money that you make matters, but the daily job that she does (with no pay) has no value to you.
I am curious about the money habits of your family. If you are truly working 100 hours a week, I would think you all would have a pretty nice place or would have a nest egg to be able to plan to upgrade. Is your business doing well?
Please keep posting! We're here to help!
So there is much more to the story, my first post seemed to be getting long...
I continued to work the 100 hour weeks for another 6 months, during that time all seemed good. My w decided she wanted to go to school to be a Holistic Health Practitioner/Massage Therapist. I altered my schedule to accommodate her 2-3 days a week of school, and intern took my hours down as I was doing the school runs, and hanging out with our 3 year old while she went to school.
Now my w was studying non stop on top of running the household and going to school (I did what I could to help on top of the 2-3 days I ran the house), so there was little time to enjoy each others company, nurture our relationship. And while I tried my best to be understanding of the load she was under I still felt as though we should take time to go out, or even hang out once in a while. It seldom happened even though I was constantly suggesting it.
She did however find time to go out with her friends every now and then, I pointed out to her that the last three times she ate out was with her friend (who she calls her sister, no relation), meanwhile she and I had not been out in over 10 months!
Also around this time I borrowed her phone (mine was dead), while I had her phone a text came in that caught my eye because I saw my name in it. I read it out of curiosity, it was her friend agreeing with my w that I was an angry person, I listen to horrible music, and that my attitude was the cause of my neck injury. When I asked my wife about what she said in the text, she stood by her statement, no remorse, no sympathy for my injury or the fact that it happened literally breaking my back for my family. She has yet to take the comment back to this day.
This was the start of the final months… we went back to MC, I was more than open to addressing my shortcomings and my w seemed very involved genuinely wanting to fix our relationship.
I left out the my injury in the last post...
About a month into her starting school, I suffered a severe neck injury and lost all feeling/articulation of my right arm, what little feeling I did have was severe pain.
After about 5 months of not working at all, cortisone shots, physical therapy, I slowly recovered and started to work again but am to this day still limited, I am still managing to provide for our home though.
At the same time her friend (pseudo sister) announced her engagement to her boyfriend. This woman has had several affairs, is an attention (censored) when out… and has facilitated affairs for other friends only to tell everybody about it afterward, (I guess it makes her feel better). I have always felt as though she was jealous of the genuine relationship my w and I had.
The upcoming wedding became a point of contention when she planned several all weekend bachelorette parties over the course of the year. The first bachelorette party was approaching and it came up in MC, the MC thought it would not be a good idea for my wife to go given there were several planned and at the time our relationship was not at its strongest. My wife expressed her desire to go later that night, it turned into an argument in which I continued to seal my fate. My wife used her friends husbands as an example, telling me “they don’t care if their wives go” to which I responded, “lets see how they feel about it after I blow the lid on the affairs their wives have had on them”. I guess my w took me seriously because she warned all of her friends about it. I know… stupid move on my part (wish I had my DB book back then!) Needless to say, I became enemy #1 of this group of women.
My w did not go to the bachelorette party, seemed upset for a few days, but seemed to get over it. We continued MC, she was going out of her way to be affectionate and make time for us, all was good for a month or two. One weekend she seemed off again, was short with me, and did not want to talk about it or even acknowledge that she was being that way. I could tell something was up and decided to look at her text, sure enough the “sister” text her two days prior giving her a hard time for not going to the upcoming bachelorette party, she told my w “this is why I did not pick you to be my maid of honor… I knew he would pull this crap, you need to get out of his grip”. It looked as though some of the thread was deleted too, so I do not know what my wife part in this conversation was. I asked her about it, she said it was no big deal, she didn’t reply. I asked her why the thread was incomplete, what did she delete, she denied it. I questioned again and told her that she should of defended me to the sister, and not allowed her to talk trash on me. At that point she screamed at me for reading the text and told me for the first time she was done, and wanted a divorce.
We went about 2-3 weeks barely talking, she dropped out of MC after getting caught in several lies, I continued to go. Eventually I convinced her that our marriage was not over, and that we just need to be more understanding of one another's point of view and more willing to compromise etc. About a month later was our 9th anniversary I took her out to a dinner and a concert, she had her reservations about going saying she does not know if we have gotten that far in the healing process, I honestly think she did not want to go but did not want me in that environment alone. She was distant through out the night (not even wanting to hold hands) slowly warming up as the night went on and we were having a good time. The concert was at a small venue were there was room to dance, my wife was dancing by herself in front of the table we were sitting at. I do not dance but know she loves to… so I figured this would be a good chance to come out of my comfort zone and dance with her. After a few minutes of dancing with the w, she pulled me to her side and told me to dance beside her, I was humiliated… and went back to sit at the table. After about 5 minutes I had enough of the cold shoulder so I Told her I wanted to go and walked out with her following. When we got to the truck I tried to tell her how I felt, she did not want to hear it, again said she is done,wants a d, and we never recovered. We continued to live together for another 2 months while she tried to figure out how to support herself and I tried to fix our m. Thats when the story really gets insane!
At that point living together was rough, she refused to talk about our m, she got a job waitressing, and would not come home 2-3 nights a week. She would not let me or the kids know she was mot coming home, and sometimes stay out half the next day... on several occasions she left us stranded with no car seats. She would tell me she stayed at the sisters house, when she would answer her phone I could hear her sister in the background, sometimes telling my w what to say. Not only did this frustrate me, but it really bothered the kids... prior to this behavior I could not of asked for a better mother to my kids. I asked her to at least let is know when she was not coming home, she did not. I finally had enough, told her it needs to stop or she needs to move out fast, I do not want the kids to go through this. She had been looking for an apartment already, unto that point I tried to talk her out of it, but she managed to make the situation unbearable. She did it the very next day, leaving us with no car seats so we had to skip church. I finally agreed with her that some space might be needed... telling her "I know you feel you need to leave our home in pursuit of happiness, I will hope and pray that pursuit brings you back home, there will always be a place setting at this home for you."
At that point things got real ugly. Her friend had just became a paralegal and started coaching my w how to screw me. For example, my w took all my tax documents, when I asked her about them she claimed I was harassing her and to leave her alone, I simply asked once.
I went to a show one night, first time I was going out alone through this entire ordeal. The w seamed in a good mood so before I left I asked to speak with her away from the kids. I told her I had come to terms with what was happening but still hopeful we will work things out, meanwhile I hope we can handle the separation in a civil way, no need for lawyers, and that we should discuss who gets what and agree not to take anything out of the house with out agreeing. She said yes, so I left for the show. About 2 hours later my dad drove by our house (unbeknownst to me) and called to tell me she was loading stuff in a friends car, and to get home now, she might be trying to take the kids (she had threatened this). I was an hour away and headed home immediately. When I got home my w had taken anything of value out of the house, 99% of the stuff she took was hers,(gifts I had brought her) but she also took all the kids records.
I was furious she did this right after our conversation, and that she did it in front of my kids. My d told me she had to ask her mom to leave some stuff on the mantle and book shelves so they were not bare. My w had already been sleeping on the coach for the past 2 months since mentioning her wanting a d. I told her to get the rest of her stuff out of the bedroom, I'm putting a lock on it tomorrow, and I will build her a cabinet in the dinning room to store her stuff in until she leaves.
My d told me it was the paralegal who helped her move everything and saw her mom signing a bunch of papers in the paralegals car.
The next morning we are arguing about some of the things she took the were not clearly hers, I walk outside to get some air and there are two Sheriff deputies at our gate, I asked them why they were there and they told me the w's sister called for a wellness check because she had not heard from her in a few days, (total bs - she was on the phone with her most the morning), anyways they talked to both of us and said the property issues are civil, nothing they can do, so deputies leave, no report taken.
My d asked why they were there so I told her that trish (pseudo sister) called them because she was worried because she could not get a hold of mom, my d immediately pointed out that she was just on the phone with her, I shrugged my shoulders and said it was probably someone else her m was taking to. Little did I know that my daughter intended to prove me wrong... later that day she got in the w's phone and found a text from the sister saying "ok I called the police, I told them he was holding you hostage w/ guns!" I was floored! Btw- I had removed all firearms from the house weeks prior as soon as I felt I was being set up.
I was on edge knowing the levels that my w would stoop to. Several days later my w had most of her belongings out of the house and was pretty much living out of a suitcase. I noticed her take every last item of hers, even went through the mail before leaving to go to her sisters for a few hours before work. I asked her why she was taking every last item of hers, was this the final departure? She said no she will be back before work to drop the kids off. My d did not want to go w/ her but the w insisted, as they were about to pull out of the driveway I noticed the kids backpacks in the back of her truck, so I again flat out asked - r u coming home... she said yes, my hands were tied, I had a knot in my stomach as they pulled away.
About ten minutes later I heard my w's friend calling for her at the gate which was locked, I knew she was there to serve me as I could see the docs in her hand... I already got the docs from the court house the week before (I went and checked after the d told me she saw her mom signing papers in the paralegals car). At the same time my d called me and said that my w just turned the location settings off on my d's phone, she sounded panicked and said here she comes I got to go, and hung up.
I never went to the gate to be served and after the call from my daughter I was distraught trying to figure out what to do. A few minutes later I see the w pull up, I met her at the gate and asked why she was back, she took the lock off the gate and backed up as if she was going to take it with her. I told her I knew what she was up to, trying to have me served and taking our kids away, her jaw dropped she was shocked. I told her I had the docs for a week and I proceeded to walk to her car, when I approached I told my d that she could stay w/ me if she wanted. She immediately started to get out of the car, my w jumped in the drivers seat, pulled my d back into the car and grabbed the seat belt out of her hands and buckled it, as she went to start the truck I reached in and unbuckled the seat belt, my w grabbed both of my hands scratching me in the process, I backed up out of the car and let them pull away, she drove up the street about a block w/ my d's door still open, and away they went.
I went back into the house fearing she would again call the police and lie about what happened. I grabbed everything I thought I would need and decided it was time to go find a lawyer. As I was pulling out of my driveway I saw 2 deputies on foot up the block, I drove up to them and said "let me guess, you are here for me?" They said no, they were in the neighborhood for a different reason but they did speak to my wife around the corner and told her it was a civil issue. I thanked them and drove on, as I rounded the corner I saw my w talking to her friend who tried to serve me, they were about 25' behind my w's truck, I pulled up to my w's car, my d instantly got out and into my truck, and we pulled away.
I went to the sheriff station and asked if they could just document the scratches I received, they said only if I file a report in which case they will have to arrest my w. Against everyones advice I did not proceed, they were only scratches and at that time, I had no idea were the situation was about to go
A few hours later I finally got a hold of my w. I again pleaded that we move forward w/ the well being of the kids in mind. She told me she would be home the next day. The next day she returned with a lot more than the suitcase she had been using during the past weeks, it was as if she wanted to make a statement that she was not leaving. I confronted her about it and told her that I had no problem w/ her coming back but we needed to come to an understanding and plan for how we would proceed with out the drama, police, etc. She refused to talk, so I put my foot down and said we will talk the next day before the kids wake up. That night she left to go hang out w/ the paralegal again. Right before she left my daughter ask me why mom was looking up locksmiths on the iPad.
The next a.m. we sit down to talk, I asked her given the false statements in the court docs and the false statements called into the police, if she would mind if I recorded the conversation, she said go ahead. Shortly into the conversation I realized that was a mistake when the w, who was sitting about 6 feet away from were I was sitting said" get your finger out of my face. Again I was dumb founded by the level she would stoop to. At that point I asked straight out are you trying to frame me, she said no, I asked if she did not feel safe in our home for some reason, she said yes. (Other than the scratches I got from her the previous week, neither of us had ever laid a hand on one another or even put a finger in the others face). I told her if for some reason she did not feel safe that she needed to leave until she did feel safe.
She walked out and proceeded to text my family members that I was acting crazy and she was really worried about my well being. She then called the sheriff and I don't know what she said but they showed up and surrounded my house like the swat team. I watched as they all got into position, walked out to the gate and told them my kids can see me from here can we walk next to my trailer if the planned on patting me down or anything, the said yes and halfway to the trailer they forcefully took me down and cuffed me.
After they made sure I was not the threat I was made out to be they removed the cuffs and started questioning both of us apart from one another. I offered to show them that there were no firearms in the house, they told me it was not necessary. They again told us that it was a civil matter, nothing they could do, no report was taken. The deputy that questioned my w came out and told me she was going to leave for a while, I said good, he then told me that she was going to take the kids and there was nothing I could do about it, however my d who was 12 at the time clearly did not want to go w/ the w, and legally she is not old enough to have a say in it, but that he could clearly see that she did not want to go with her mom and he could not see any reason not to let her stay with me, so she did.
Later that evening my dad had just picked up my d to take her swimming. I heard the gate and there was my w unlocking the gate to let 8 deputies in. The came right in my house, forcefully sat me down at my table and served me with a Temporary Restraining Order stating that I was not allowed near my w, kids, or my house until a court date about 4 weeks away. They gave me two minutes to gather my belongings and leave.
To obtain the TRO, my w claimed that I slammed her in the gate the day she was trying to have me served, also claimed I jammed my finger into her chest when arguing, and that I throw stuff at her in front of the kids. All a complete fabrication.
Up to that point I had never been away from my kids for a single night, it seemed as though my world was ending. My lawyer was not that worried about the TRO, he was confident it would get thrown out and that since my cabinet shop is on the property that I am no longer able to be within 100 yards of, I can not work so that constitutes an emergency and we were able to get an exparte hearing right away (4 days after the TRO was served). The TRO did get dismissed (in a later court date she admitted it was bogus, VINDICATION!!!, however it will always be on my otherwise clean record) and while in court that day we were able to come up with a custody and support agreement, we agreed on 50/50 custody split with the kids... the support amount was were my w stooped again (mind you she took all my tax docs, and I had no access to my shop or office) she swore up and down I made 4 times more than I actually do and ended up getting an insane amount for support + I had to pay for her apartment. 3 months later I was able to get the support amount were it should be according to my true income.
The day after the TRO was dismissed, I called her and asked how she could do this to me, what in the world did I do to deserve all this, she claimed that I was trying to take her kids away from her, that I was trying to frame her for abandonment, were she came up with this idea I don't know, but I guess it helped her to live with what she had done.
I told her that even though I am still digesting what just happened and needed to come to terms with it, that I still loved her and hoped and prayed that we will figure it all out and get our family back together.
So a little bit more about my w, and our r. when we met she was a pre school teacher. She made me court her for a year before getting serious. she went to church and read her bible regularly. You would of never guessed that she came from the most extreme type of dysfunctional family.
When we had our first kid we decided she would be a SAHM, she embraced every bit of it... I was in awe of he motherly instincts and abilities, all our kids had organic homemade baby food, knew sign language before they could speak and so on. She homeschooled our daughter until 5th grade.
There were a few times during our 16 years that she picked up a waitressing job but never long term, during the 16 years she only worked 3 years total on and off. I was fine with being the sole provider, we made a good team, I knew I could always count on her to keep the family and home going if I needed to focus on a project. At times she wanted to pick up a waitressing job to help when funds were tight but it was never that sensible given the time she was away and what she would make, and that I would have to not work and be with the kids when she did, occasionally during these discussions I would encourage her to go back to school and get a career, this would frustrate her as she felt I was belittling her, I'd try to explain to her the benefits... not only financially but to her well being, I'd point out how she really does not like waitressing, but she loved being a preschool teacher, why not become a kindergarten teacher and so forth. She never wanted to hear it and would say things like "you know what you were marring into". Deep down I knew that if she wanted to work she would be happier with a career but it became one of those sensitive topics I knew to try and avoid.
During our relationship, prior to the last year and a half we were intimate at least twice a day, with her initiating it at least once a day, life was good in that department... then I started to realize that even though the frequency did not decline, she did not initiate it. I brought this up to her and she said not to think anything of it, and occasionally initiated it. Eventually we went to about 2-3 times a week (I know I have nothing to complain about here), but I could tell she was not into it like in the past. She would stay up late avoiding bedtime together.
During this time she was talking/texting with her friends a lot more than in the past, this is also the time when I found the text of her and her friends talking bad about me.
This is where that damn treehouse and my response to feeling unappreciated comes back to haunt me. During MC, and even to this day she will bring up the treehouse argument and say I took her off her pedestal that day, and she began to put up her wall. Well one would think that having the cause, a solution would be easy to find, not so. There has been nothing I can say to assure my w that I still hold her on a pedestal and adore her in every way.
I must say even though she says that day was the start of it, I think it was going to happen no matter what because while I did not respond well that day, her list of reasons why we are in our current situation is not that solid, its like she is looking for reasons to despise me.
I know my w is responsible for her own actions, but I know her "sister" and friends are fueling it, after the first time she mentioned d, I started reading what ever I could to help our situation and doing 180's. She noticed because she text all her friends how much I was trying to make things better, cooking dinner, owning my faults, etc. told them she really does love me... there overwhelming response "pull your heart out of it and use your head".
I also got the "I love you but am not in love with you" dagger to the heart about 5 months ago.
Current day: Now that all the court drama is over we are not fighting. I am trying to detach but have slipped a lot (I got and read DB & DR about three weeks ago re-read DR over the last few days...plenty of time to read when you can't sleep). We see each other often dropping the kids off, often well sit down talk have a cup of tea. My d needs me to help her with her algebra so they sometimes come over when there on their moms time, we usually do dinner as a family these nights, I think she enjoys these moments and I know she can see how much the kids enjoy it. The most I have gone with out bringing up r talks is probably a week since she moved out. Her response was always the same either I don't want to talk about, or talk enough to say how much I screwed up and then say she got to go always ending in I just need space.
However, things seemed to have changed over the past week or so. She seems to be more involved and willing to talk, (we had about 3 talks over the past week) but she has never initiated the talks.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Sorry that you are going through all of this. But is way past trying to save your MR. Divorce your W and keep it moving. Your entire way of life is at stake. The deputies know your W is lying and still kicked you out if your home. There should be a report made every time they showed up, regardless if it was a civil matter. The friend is leading the charge. So it's time to start putting dirt out on her and all her A. And throw them other friends under the bus as well.
People on here will advise you to be the bigger person. But This is literally your life here. W will have you only getting supervised visit with your children at this rate. Its time for you to charge your W with domestic violence for those scratches if still possible. The officer you talked to should be able to back your story since he saw the scratches. And talked to your lawyer about coming up with a real plan.
Don't let let him just get back to you. Because that friend is probably at your house right now in your W ear. Forget the MR at this point. Save yourself and your children.
We see each other often dropping the kids off, often well sit down talk have a cup of tea.
we usually do dinner as a family these nights,
(we had about 3 talks over the past week) but she has never initiated the talks.
As much as I want to, I cant necessarily agree that divorce is the best option. At least not at this point. Yes, she has done a LOT of shady things. But to me, I dont think being divorced necessarily changes the ramifications of them or prevents additional things from happening in the future.
My advice would be right now to stop stoking the embers and checking the temperature with these kinds of things above. Youre letting her eat all kinds of cake by keeping yourself squarely on the hook by temp checking, by starting these convos, by having family dinners, etc. It does not read like progress to me - it reads like she is using you to get what she wants while keeping you attached.
I would stop ALL of this and go as quiet with her as you can. Id focus on building your own mental strength through GAL and really take some time to heal from all of the trauma that you have had to go through. I do not think that having her around this frequently is good for either of you.
Please keep reading and keep posting!
Thanks Kaizen,
The two things you mention are what finally motivated me to start a thread on my sitch.
So yes I want to stay married and want to reconcile. The first reason I am not giving up hope is that everything in her life changed at once... its not like our relationship was the only thing that changed. When she did mention d and started not coming home a lot of others things changed, for example, she stopped going to church, stopped reading her bible, became less involved with the kids, she stopped communicating with mutual friends who likely would of encouraged her to look at her actions, she insulated herself with her core group of friends who were fueling the sitch, she started drinking with her friends again (she has never and still doesn't have alcohol problems but I mention it because she had completely stopped drinking all together 2 years prior, part of her holistic approach to life), she started social media sites and became obsessed with monitoring them (she used to despise this of others).
The second reason I am fighting for our M & R is that prior to all the craziness, I could not of asked for a better w, a better best friend.
The third is our family, I know I was blessed with my w and kids, I've had to really reflect and pray if I am willing to let this chaos destroy it, knowing the man upstairs does not put on us more than we can bear, I've really dug deep and mainly tried to focus on what good can and is coming from this sitch, I know I am a better father than I ever was before, I am also a better husband. If we can pull through all this and preserve our m and family I do believe it will be stronger than ever.
You also mentioned no longer starting convos and no longer doing family dinners, this was the other thing I was struggling with. I started to wonder if the family dinners/hanging out were letting her have the best of both worlds, and maybe if we did not do those things she would miss them and be apt to work on our m.
As far as the convos go I thought after reading DB & DR I was strong enough to stop them, but last week I slipped and started what seemed to turn into the most enlightening ones yet... at one point I even told her "wow, I'm glad we can talk because I had no idea about how you felt about a lot of things and vise versa, maybe taking some misconceptions off the plate will lessen your desire for space/not wanting a relationship at the moment." for example, she justifies the bogus TRO by saying it was her only defense against me claiming she abandoned the kids to get more custody, I told her not only would I have never done that, but I had no grounds to do so, the court would never consider her going out partying with her friends abandonment, (I can only guess witch one of her friends put that idea in her head). I also told her at that point that I completely forgave her for the TRO, it still hurts, but forgiving it makes it hurt a little less, and her reasons for justifying it only add to the hurt.
But any way to my point on the convos, I was struggling with the thought of wether or not her finally engaging in them is being productive in the healing process and should I continue them.
Wow, Clyde. I'm really taken aback at your sitch and everything that's happened. You're a good man for still wanting it to work after all that. A TRO - man that svcks.
With everything your W is going through, it almost sounds like a MLC. Not that that makes this any easier on you.
I agree with Kaizen that this is a good time for you to work on yourself and GAL. You need to find some positive energy in your life to help you face the hard times ahead.
You also mentioned no longer starting convos and no longer doing family dinners, this was the other thing I was struggling with. I started to wonder if the family dinners/hanging out were letting her have the best of both worlds, and maybe if we did not do those things she would miss them and be apt to work on our m.
Yes, you should stop them. Theres a few reasons I think that it would be good.
1) like you said, it helps shift the pursuer/distancer dynamic. It gives her an opportunity to pursue you.
2) It also gives a little bit of mystery to your life. Youve said repeatedly that you are open to forgiveness and that she can come back any time. Those kinds of things only keep her away - as they reinforce that you will be there as her safety net. If she isnt regularly seeing you, then she may wonder what you are actually doing instead.
3) It gives you each some space. Neither of you is in a position to 'work on your m' right now. There is a ton of damage done to the foundation of your marriage. Now is a great time to reflect and figure out what matters to each of you. By continuing to interact so regularly, you lose the objectivity you need to make what should be difficult decisions and choices about what you value.
As far as the convos go I thought after reading DB & DR I was strong enough to stop them, but last week I slipped and started what seemed to turn into the most enlightening ones yet... at one point I even told her "wow, I'm glad we can talk because I had no idea about how you felt about a lot of things and vise versa, maybe taking some misconceptions off the plate will lessen your desire for space/not wanting a relationship at the moment."
The first part is ok. But the second part makes me want to pull my hair out! She knows you want to R. So stop pushing it. Just...be...for now. Think about it this way - every time you mention reconciling it pushes your chances for actually doing so farther out. Imagine your kid asking for a treat at 2 PM. You say 'no, maybe after dinner.' How would you feel if they asked you for a treat every 5 minutes from 2 PM until dinner time? Thats you right now - every time you bring up reconciling, she is going to just get more frustrated/annoyed at you. Shes asking for some space. Give it to her.
I was fine with being the sole provider, we made a good team, I knew I could always count on her to keep the family and home going if I needed to focus on a project.
I think I talked about this kind of thing in my first post. Honestly....how did you value her? How did you feel about her contributions?
In your intro post, you talk about her going out and providing while you stay at home....as if your role was harder? more important? Im not sure.
No BS now....How did you
really feel about your roles in the family?
I would encourage her to go back to school and get a career, this would frustrate her as she felt I was belittling her, I'd try to explain to her the benefits... not only financially but to her well being
So how did you project this to work with you working 60-100 hours every week? Was your thought that she would just 'add' schooling on top of the responsibilities she already had? It comes across as belittling, because it sounds empty - as in theres no way to actually go about doing it so it would make sense why it would be frustrating for her.
I honestly was and still am ok with the dynamic of me being the sole provider, my response to her calling our house a (censored) hole was from the hip, at that moment I felt as though she was not appreciating my part in the dynamic. (If i could go back to that day I would not have said what I said in that moment, instead waited for a better time and way to express my feelings to that comment.) I don't discount what her responsibilities are what so ever, even though it may have sounded like that. I pointed out how she goes above and beyond holding the house together but she is still able to have her tea on the back patio daily while the kids play in the yard, she gets to read books through out the day, does her yoga while the kids occupied themselves, all of which makes me happy, she deserved those moments - however she needed to realize that under the hours I was pulling I did not get a single moment to vent, relax... I step into my shop at 5 a.m. and have saws and machines screaming in my ears all day, on my feet all day. I will also add that I feel good knowing that my work load provides the opportunity for our family to have the benefits of a SAHM.
When we discussed schooling I told her I would make my schedule work with her school schedule which is exactly what we did of the 18 months she did decide to go school. When not killing my self doing 100 a weeks (its feast or famine in this industry) I try to keep my hours around 10 a day, but worked more hours on the days she did not have school to compensate.
Holding,
Yes I have wondered if she may be experiencing some level of MLC, at times I have been certain of it, but I am trying to be careful not to pass all the blame in that direction so that I am not jaded to my contributions to the sitch.
In the recent weeks I can see the internal battle she is dealing with (at least I think I see it). I know some day (if she is not already), she will have to confront her actions and the ramifications of them, I worry about the impact that is going to have on her. I have never seen her treat anyone in her life how she has treated me over the last 6 months. She is always been a compassionate, forgiving person, she is the one who taught me to always be considerate of what others might be going through before condemning.
Kaizen,
I tell my self the same thing about pursuing, (read the solo partner 2 weeks ago). Detaching/distancing is much harder than it sounds. I seem to seize every opportunity to make my case... I know I should make time my friend, but battle with the what else might happen in time...
I shouldn't, but I do worry about OM, she swears she has not and will not, I believe her for 2 reasons... One: she made me court her for a year+ before having sex. Yes she could be having an EA, but again swears she wants no relationship at this point in her life. Two: With all the vicious things she has said to me over the past 6 months I think she would of thrown it in my face. I fear the friends will try to expedite her finding OM to put the final nail in the coffin, her "sister" has several sugar daddys that I know she is still in contact with, I am worried she is trying to arrange some thing for my w, wether she knows it or not.
I tell my self the same thing about pursuing, (read the solo partner 2 weeks ago). Detaching/distancing is much harder than it sounds. I seem to seize every opportunity to make my case... I know I should make time my friend, but battle with the what else might happen in time...
Of course it's hard. Change is hard.
Thats no excuse to not do it though!
And I promise you, this isnt a situation where you can convince her of ANYTHING through your words. Logic, reason, guilt, desperation....doesnt matter. Until there is enough TIME and CONSISTENT CHANGE on your part, you dont have a chance.
I shouldn't, but I do worry about OM, she swears she has not and will not, I believe her for 2 reasons... One: she made me court her for a year+ before having sex. Yes she could be having an EA, but again swears she wants no relationship at this point in her life. Two: With all the vicious things she has said to me over the past 6 months I think she would of thrown it in my face. I fear the friends will try to expedite her finding OM to put the final nail in the coffin, her "sister" has several sugar daddys that I know she is still in contact with, I am worried she is trying to arrange some thing for my w, wether she knows it or not.
Do you really think she would tell you if there were an OM?
And frankly, does it even matter if theres an OM to what you need to do?
Focus on what you can control.
Clyde,
I don't think there may not be an OM. My W was a virgin who I did everything to court her right for almost 2 years before having sex. OM didn't even buy her a drink and had been in contact on a cruise for only 24 hours. So trust me, everything you did for her means nothing when it comes to having sex with someone else. Plus her W has a cheating friend who is has strong influence on her. Plus all your W has been doing is lying on you. So why would she tell the truth about having an OM.
Clyde, sorry you find yourself here! Your W's actions are unbelievable. There's absolutely no excusing the things she has done. BUT, there's a lot of info in your first post that positively screams "marriage about to fail".
at the time of the incident I was putting in over 100 hours a week for over 2 months with out a single day off
100 hours a week! That would be 16 hours a day M-F plus 10 hours Sa and Su. I think it's very safe to say you were nonexistent around the house. Your W was suddenly left to do 100% of the housework, 100% of the childcare, 100% of everything with zero assistance from you. Plus she was getting no emotional support. You ceased to be a husband.
prior to that I was averaging 60 hours a week (I'm in the construction industry)
60 hours is still a LOT. You're talking 12 hour days with maybe the weekends off, but still enough time that you were scarcely home during the week. I'm an architect so have worked closely with many people in the construction industry, and I also worked for a GC for a while. I know what a tight-knit family people become when they're involved in construction. They work together, go out to drink and eat together, shoot pool together, have BBQ's together. That is all great, but they heavily neglect their real family without realizing the damage they are causing. Divorce is positively rampant in construction and the stories are often quite similar to yours (other than your w's crazy antics). They are shocked and surprised, "it came out of nowhere", "she never said a word", etc. They don't seem to have a clue just how much they neglected their W and kids. They'll say things like "I took them on vacation just 3 months ago and we had a great time!" They just don't seem to get that you've got to be there EVERY DAY for them!
My wife contested right away, said no way are we building a tree house till my daughter had her own room, (all three kids shared a room at the time, the plan was to convert a 3 walled office space in our house, into her bedroom). The tree house was a 1 day project, the bedroom was a 2 weak project. While I agree with the importance of my daughter having her own room I did not have 2 weeks to dedicate at the time, but I could take a day off and do the tree house.
I hope you understand the treehouse wasn't why your W left, it was just the last straw of a string of problems. She had been ready to bail already. Here you are working non-stop, not contributing as a husband, and finally you're going to take a day off to what? Build something completely frivolous. She's looking around at a house she can't keep up with, 3 kids stacked one on top of another in a single room, and you're going to waste your one day off in 2 MONTHS building a treehouse. I mean I'm pretty stunned just reading it, and reading you trying to justify it! It was a huge mistake on your part and I am not at all surprised it was her breaking point. I understand a family needs to make money to survive, but working 60-100 hours a week simply cannot be done without neglecting the needs of your family. You should have questioned your career a long time ago, and considered asking your W to go back to work so you could work less and spend more time with her and the kids.
So where do you go from here. Well you say you want to save your M, but like we tell everyone that comes here, your old M is dead and gone. You've got to give your W time and space and work on yourself. You've got to make yourself into the "spouse only a fool would leave". Get back in shape, be a fantastic father, dress better, groom better, GAL (get a life), be happy and healthy. And I think in your case- work less. I'm sure that'll be difficult since you've got to support your W separately now, but if there's a way you need to find it. With time, hopefully she will become attracted to you again and you can begin a NEW relationship with her. Good luck!
So yes I was working 100 hours a week, that was a decision both my wife and I always made together before taking on a job/contract. It was not constant though, and 90% of the work I do is in the shop on our property, so I am able to see my family through out the day, we usually ate lunch and dinner together, I always stopped to tuck the kids in/play them a song before bedtime. The times I was putting 100 hours a week were necessary to get the contract, not exactly a choice...and again, it was something the W and I always discussed prior to taking the job. As a matter of fact the last time I did it I told her I did not feel up to it, maybe we should pass on this one, to which she responded that we really need this one, we have nothing else in the pipe line.
When ever possible we tried to keep my hours around 60 a week, I would get into the shop around 5a.m. and usually be able to join the family by 5:30p.m. - 6p.m. I was a very involved husband and father, at all t-ball games, school plays etc., helped with homework. In the evenings we all hung out as a family in the yard playing ball or something, for the first 14 years of our R my W and I usually had a beer together on the back pain in the evening discussing our day, we would always go to bed together. My wife got a bouquet of flowers almost weekly. If my W was going to costco or something like that most times I would take a break and go with & then make those hours up after the kids went to bed or get up earlier the next morning .
I have never gone to the bar with the guys after work... not once. I do high end cabinetry and do 100% of the work myself..., no one to even ask to go to the bars with, besides, if I was not working I wanted to be with my family. We tried to hire help, but to get someone reliable and able to deliver the quality my shop is known for, the hourly rate is too high to offer steady employment, and in this industry you can only tell an employee no work today so many times before they go looking else where.
Clyde,
I'm not going to lie. Your story is one of the most heart breaking Sitch I have read on here. Your life is work and family. Where are your friends? Put in those amount of hours is back breaking and your Wife agreed. And you made time thru all of that wow. I applaud you!!!!!
I think it's time for Clyde to get some of Clyde back. I'm glad you work hard and provide for your family. How were you fulfilling your wife emotional needs?
Were you tired when you finished working to talk to her, make love to her (not sex), listen to her? You were waking up at 5 A.M. every morning. Man that's taxing. You need some alone time IMHO. Time just by yourself. It might not seem tight at the moment. But I know it will help you.
I was a very involved husband and father, at all t-ball games, school plays etc., helped with homework. In the evenings we all hung out as a family in the yard playing ball or something, for the first 14 years of our R my W and I usually had a beer together on the back pain in the evening discussing our day, we would always go to bed together. My wife got a bouquet of flowers almost weekly. If my W was going to costco or something like that most times I would take a break and go with & then make those hours up after the kids went to bed or get up earlier the next morning .
Im not saying that this isnt true. In my opinion, I could not work 60+ hours a week and still be a positive contributor to my family. Getting up and working from 530 AM to 6 PM every day would make me irritable and drowsy for all of the 'family time' you are describing. But, you arent me, so maybe you are good with it. I dont know.
My question to you is what do you want to get out of this board? Ive noticed every time I or someone else reads something from your story and gives you some opinion, you refute it quickly and give examples of how they are wrong. Thats fine, BUT. Your W is not here. Your W does not want to repair the relationship. So you want us to call her crazy or to say were sorry for all the [censored] youve been through. Then thats fine. You got dealt a crummy hand. Theres a lot of extremely repulsive stunts that she did and I commend you for still wanting to stick by this woman.
So what to do NOW?
I can guarantee you one thing. Your W is not going to come back to the same marriage to the same person. She isnt going to wake up one day and miss the times that you had and want to turn back the clock. The ONLY way to come back together as a couple is for YOU to change. First. If you can truly become a person that only a fool would leave, then you have a chance at a lasting successful reconciliation.
So what are you going to do differently? What changes are you making now? You have to dig deep and peel back the layers on yourself to really understand your own missteps.
That doesnt mean youre a bad guy. The analogy that helped me understand my faults was that I was trying to build something (lets say a cabinet
), but I didnt have the right tools. Is it my fault when the cabinet breaks? I mean, maybe - I didnt know the things I didnt know. Thats what we are trying to do - help you to see your actions and behaviors from another perspective to really learn about yourself and where you can improve.
So where do you think those areas are?
Clyde,
Kaizen bring up great points. We are not here to rag on your W. We are here to help you to find the problems in your M. How can you work to fix those problems from your side of the street, and get to a healthy place for yourself. There will be stern advice here. Some will seem hardcore, like when Sandi 2x4, some will seem compassionate, like when 25 gives advice, but none of them will bash or make your W the problem.
All the advice given is for you and not for you W. Making yourself a person only a fool can leave, doesn't involve any help or work from your W. This journey is all yours my friend. Buckle up, and get ready for the ride. We all on here have commonalities, but each sitch is different. Not all advice given on your Sitch will apply to your Sitch, that's why it is real important for you to understand the problems you caused from your W perspective, that way you can do successful 180s. Give her space, you need space as well. Healing takes time!!!!! You M didn't get to this point because of a Tree house, it took years, and it might take months and years to get to a healthy M.
I can guarantee you one thing. Your W is not going to come back to the same marriage to the same person. She isnt going to wake up one day and miss the times that you had and want to turn back the clock. The ONLY way to come back together as a couple is for YOU to change. First. If you can truly become a person that only a fool would leave, then you have a chance at a lasting successful reconciliation.
Exactly right, very well said!
Clyde, please understand I only post here to try and help people. I don't do it because I like to hear myself talk (or see myself type). Some people are open to help and others are not. Right now you fall firmly into the latter camp. You don't want help, you don't want to change. You want us to tell you your wife is crazy and she'll "get well" some day and come back and everything will get back to normal. But she doesn't want that M, who would? Who wants to be married to someone that works 60-100 hours week in and week out? No one! As Kaizen said, that doesn't mean you're bad or evil or want to hurt anyone. Clearly that's not the case. You obviously love your family, even the hours and hours you were pouring into your work you saw as being for them (although it's very unlikely they saw it that way). But you can't continue being in denial about this, because doing so prevents you from growing and changing.
Kaizen bring up great points. We are not here to rag on your W. We are here to help you to find the problems in your M. How can you work to fix those problems from your side of the street, and get to a healthy place for yourself.
This also is great advice. Your W has done some terrible things since BD, and there's no excusing that. But what we're trying to focus on is the M and where things went wrong BEFORE BD. BD is nearly always preceded by months or years of suffering by the WAS, so we try to get at the core reasons of why they were suffering and focus on what the LBS can do 180's on. 180's are one of the supporting columns of DB'ing.
Hi Clyde, just reading Another Stander's thoughtful post above - I wondered if it might be helpful to read the book His Needs Her Needs. It was a real eye opener to me how different the needs of guys and gals are in relationships. I read the gal stuff and completely identified with it. Then I read the guy stuff and I thought - really??
It certainly gave me some food for thought about how I would approach a future relationship. Working long hours was mentioned and I've certainly seen that before on the forum. Guys in good faith and feeling like they are supporting their spouse and families - providing - but of course working those kinds of hours also means absence and lost time together. It's a tough balance I think..
Sounds like you are getting some wise advice from posters. I agree with AS - yes, your W may have done some stuff - and that's on her and up to her. Is she I'll? Will she change and repent? Who knows. She is a person with free will, and she will do what she will. You have limited influence there - although DBing can help you survive this. But it helps by focusing on you - the part where you have 100% control. Cope, survive - thrive.
I can remember reading about the DBing approach when I was in a deep pit. XH had left and was with OW and I remember thinking - what do I do now??!! how can I fix this??!!
I liked that DBing is a win - win approach. You cannot lose. Either you will successfully get to the other side of this and go on to live a happily single life, or start a new R from a healthy place - or your spouse will choose to return to a 'better' relationship. Either way, you win..
I remember the penny dropping - okay I fix me. Fixing me may fix this - but either way I'm fixed & that's good. That's where to focus. We are all individuals with many talents, flaws and baggage - often from childhood and these are great places to look at.
Best of luck to you
Kaizen , joejoe1, AnotherStander,
What I’d like to get out of this board is 2 things:
1st - Support and encouragement (which I thank you all for already providing this in the few days I’ve had the thread), many of my friends and family think I’m crazy for wanting to save my marriage at this point, some have even told me they will never talk to me again if we do reconcile…
2nd - Advice (yes I understand that includes constructive criticism and welcome it). I’ve been reading this forum for a few months and have learned a lot from it. While I have pursued and tried to fix since the moment the W mentioned D, over the past month and a half I refrained from it more than before, having not once gotten the W to engage other than to tell me what a horrible H I was (some of what she would say had validity, most did not), she finally started to genuinely engage in the conversations over the past week and a half. This threw me for a loop and finally lead me to start the thread as I was not sure whether or not to continue initiating the conversations, along with the family dinners, a.m. tea, etc. as we discussed in an earlier post
Yes I understand the W was not happy w/ the M, during MC I changed most of what she voiced, I say most as some of it was a simple decision I could make, such as never missing family dinner or church, some of it was habits that take time to curb, like letting things get to me and effect my disposition. During the last couple months she was still in the house I was doing a lot more around the house, from laundry, to cooking and grocery shopping. I know I still have a long way to go as far as being the best H I can be, but am more than willing to put in the work, and acknowledge my shortcomings.
I’m not saying the hours I worked did not take its toll on our family, I do my best to minimize the impact, I would also say that I don’t think I could do those hours if I was not able to see the family through out the day.
She has told me the hours I work and what is left of me at the end of the day was an issue, (as a matter of fact in our recent discussions she has said that was one of the main issues along with the uncertainty of me being self employed). That being said, when it did come up in the past she would also acknowledge that we really had no choice. I mentioned that she waitressed for a few short spurts but that it did not prove to be advantageous to our monthly income as when she worked I had to stay home with the kids. This is where the volatile discussions of her getting an education/career would come into play when we weighed our options. Shortly after the treehouse argument she did go to school, I thought we were both on the same page at that point in that when she finished her schooling she would have new work opportunities taking some of the load off me. That was clearly not the case as she asked for the D the same month she graduated. A few days after she mentioned the D I sat down with her and suggested we sell the house, BK what debt we were able to, I would get a 9 - 5, and if it meant we had to live in an apartment then so be it, lets simplify things. She wanted no part of that plan.
I don't know how i will GAL at this point, I have the kids 50% of the time, and getting as many hours in as I can when I don't have them. I know I need to find a way though.
Biggest visible 180 I have done is my appearance (court for the TRO also played a factor in this one) I cut my hair after having long hair for 20+ years, and shaved my beard for the first time since our wedding.
Biggest 180 I am working on with some good success, not engaging in arguments with the W, during our last disagreement I could tell she was caught off guard by my approach...thanks DB & DR.
And so while she has said even recently that my work was a main issue, I completely get it, and don’t want to discount what part it played in all this, cause it did. I personally feel like there were some other factors that played a bigger part in our demise - that being the “sister” and friends (now if any of you think I am passing the blame feel free to let me know).
Prior to the last 2 years my W put me above her friends, we were best friends who confided everything with one another, thats how I know about all the affairs the “sister” and friends had. Then one night I was taken back by the W’s response to something she told me. She was telling me she was concerned about her “sister” she was in Vegas with some guy she met on one of those “sugar daddy” websites, I just laughed and shook my head as it did not surprise me. My W said “No you don’t understand, she had only just met the guy online a day or two prior, he offered to take her all expenses paid in exchange for her being his arm candy.” My response again was to shake my head and laugh, I told the W “thats what you call an escort” the W did not refute the escort comment, instead took the conversation to her concern about her “sisters” safety, being there with a stranger. After talking about her safety for a few minutes I asked the W, “wait a minute, isn’t she living with “whats his face” (her boyfriend at the time, - I’ll leave his real name out of it), the W said yes, she is. Again I shook my head but did not laugh this time, instead I said that is f’d up, poor "whats his face", to which I expected the W to agree as she would of in the past. The wife did not agree it was f’d up, instead ripped me apart for judging the "sister" and did not talk to me for the rest of the night. BTW “whats his face” is now the “sisters” husband as of a few weeks ago.
Over the past year I have read many text of the “sister” & friends talking bad about me to the W, encouraging her to steel money, to ignore what the MC was telling her, to ignore what our Pastor was telling her, to get out, and so forth.
Yes I understand the W was not happy w/ the M, during MC I changed most of what she voiced,
I listen to a weekly women's podcast and one of the things I hear them repeat a lot is "It isnt my job to tell you what to do every time something needs to be done." In this week's episode, they were venting about their husbands asking for reminders on the schedule day by day.
The reason I bring this up is that I am sure that the things that came up in MC that she wanted you to change werent new. And Im sure that it wasnt an exhaustive list. If she listed 5 things and you did exactly those and no more, no less, then it isnt sincere and it isnt lasting.
YOU need to be the one to reflect and dig to identify the things you want to do proactively...whether she sees it or not.
For example, what are you doing to sustainably change your daily routine so that you arent working 60-100 hour weeks? What are you doing about your attitude in the off times? and so on. It doesnt matter if or when she sees it - these are changes YOU need to decide to have successful relationships going forward.
During the last couple months she was still in the house I was doing a lot more around the house, from laundry, to cooking and grocery shopping. I know I still have a long way to go as far as being the best H I can be, but am more than willing to put in the work, and acknowledge my shortcomings.
Are you? In the very next post, you go into how most of the situation isnt your fault?
Where is the detail of your internal audit? Where is your checklist for what YOU are going to do different / better?
By the way, Sandi talks a lot about 'super husband mode' where the H does all of the housework to show how helpful he can be. She points out that this is often a backwards step as it reinforces a lack of respect from a WW. I know it's too late for that advice to really mean anything, but just a tip for the future.
She has told me the hours I work and what is left of me at the end of the day was an issue, (as a matter of fact in our recent discussions she has said that was one of the main issues along with the uncertainty of me being self employed). That being said, when it did come up in the past she would also acknowledge that we really had no choice.
There is ALWAYS a choice. You just collectively decided this was the best choice. But Ill bet if you went back and looked at it, youd see other options and maybe a different one was more desirable. For example, maybe you each work a typical 9-5 job and come away with a similar pay, but the workload is more balanced and the overall mood in the house is better? I dont know.
But let's say by chance she does come back. What would be different going forward?
I thought we were both on the same page at that point in that when she finished her schooling she would have new work opportunities taking some of the load off me.
I know you dont see it yet, but in your writing, you drop hints like this that give a lot of insight into your opinion of the division of labor in the house. You say you didnt do any real amount of housework until 'the last couple months', but at the same time, you are expecting her to do more in order to 'take the load off of you'. Where is the plan for you to take some of the home load off of her? Like I said in previous posts, it reads like you value her contributions less. You say you dont, but if Im picking it up several times within a few paragraphs, how do you think she perceived your attitude and comments?
That was clearly not the case as she asked for the D the same month she graduated. A few days after she mentioned the D I sat down with her and suggested we sell the house, BK what debt we were able to, I would get a 9 - 5, and if it meant we had to live in an apartment then so be it, lets simplify things. She wanted no part of that plan.
See? Options!
I am sure her frustration is that it took until she was ready to work out the door for you to make this kind of offer. What about all of the months in between the treehouse and MC and this point?
I don't know how i will GAL at this point, I have the kids 50% of the time, and getting as many hours in as I can when I don't have them. I know I need to find a way though.
Maybe it's time to consider a more sustainable path? If you cant GAL now....it wont get any easier in the future.
Clyde,
Kaizen make great points. From reading your last post, I gleam from you that doing less work is not an option. If you want to make your M or R better, you are going to have to figure out a way to take the load off yourself. Your work is self induced. I feel you on providing for your family financially, but that's is not the only need they need. Emotionally are you providing. Is there a balance being provided between financial and emotional? If not a change has to come from you.
I also see and read from your last post a lot of, "my wife share fault in the demise of the M". Which is true, but like multiple posters and vets have told you, this journey is about you. You wife have her faults, no doubt, but focusing on those won't help you in this journey. What are the changes you need to make, to make yourself better, for this M or a future R?
Another question, is working all those hours worth losing your M? If the answer is no. Then you have a tough decision ahead.
I can tell you feel over worked, and under appreciated. I did as well, but me feeling that way don't fix the problem. If you want your M to work you must find a lasting solution.
Kaizen.
I have no idea how you guys are getting the "originally posted by: quote boxes" so please excuse my elementary way of doing it...
You ask: Are you? In the very next post, you go into how most of the situation isnt your fault?
Yes I am acknowledging my short comings... with all do respect, my short comings and the roll the friends played in it are 2 different factors, you can't tell me you do not see how the friends played a significant roll in this. So yes I am human and have short comings, no addictions, no abuse, my actions regarding how to provide were always with the family's best interest at heart. When the W's "sister" and friends are talking bad about me, when they are telling her the she should not love me, not give what is a solid relationship the chance it deserves, especially when the W is telling them how much effort I am putting into the relationship and how much she loves me, is all ill advice that had a significant impact on the R and the W's willingness to work on it. All that said I still understand the only thing I can control are my actions.
You said : If she listed 5 things and you did exactly those and no more, no less, then it isnt sincere and it isnt lasting.
Mind you she dropped out of MC when she got caught in several lies. Why did she feel it necessary to lie? One of the lies she got caught in was about stealing money, I found out she was doing so by reading about it on her phone it in a text from her friend who was encouraging it, (again, the damn friends meddling in our M). I continued to go to MC for an additional 4 months after she stopped going, I still meet with our pastor weekly to get advice on life, the M, and to nurture my growth as a person... I did not take her list as an assignment I could blow through and move on with life.
You ask: Where is the detail of your internal audit? Where is your checklist for what YOU are going to do different / better?
I could of handled all of or altercations over the past 2 years better, some of the arguments I engaged in were pointless and some of my reactions to things that were said or done did not help our relationship, rather hurt it.
As far as the work load, I never surrendered my self to that scenario, I am constantly trying to improve the sitch... be it by investing in new machinery, implementing new methods and so forth. We live on the outskirts of San Diego, the cost of living is ridiculous here, no car payments, no extravagant living. The biggest step toward improving this scenario was the wife going to school which we never got to see the benefits of in the R, (her going to school was something we both made happen, I ran the house 2-3 days a week for close to 2 years, while still being the sole provider along with expenses that came with the schooling.)
I am a passionate person, leaving my work in the shop has been a hard habit to break and has undeniably had effects on my interactions with the family at times, (at times... were not talking daily). This is something that has gotten much better over the years, I figured out long ago how my demeanor can set the tone for the night, that being said, even though it has gotten better its something that I'm working on to this day.
In the past if I was driving and someone cut me off, I would have the normal reaction of a few choice words or the good ole bird, this was something the W expressed her disapproval of, so now a days I smile and wave.
You state: I know you dont see it yet, but in your writing, you drop hints like this that give a lot of insight into your opinion of the division of labor in the house. You say you didnt do any real amount of housework until 'the last couple months', but at the same time, you are expecting her to do more in order to 'take the load off of you.
Absolutely not, When she was going to school I held the house down, she always came home to a clean house, laundry done etc... I never said in this thread or to my W that she needed to take on more, just as I did when she went to school and the few times she did work, we discussed how I hold the house down when she worked.
You state: I am sure her frustration is that it took until she was ready to work out the door for you to make this kind of offer. What about all of the months in between the treehouse and MC and this point?
I make good money, being the sole provider in this area is not common, I still feel as though I personally did all I could do given what I had to work with. She refused to get an education/career until recent, even if she worked a 9-5 waitressing or something in that realm, 90% of what she made would of gone to daycare, in which case my 9-5 would not of cut it. Again she even acknowledged this in the same recent conversation were she said my work load was an issue. Now that you have a better understanding of how I did, and would take household responsibilities off her, does it not seem logical that the best thing for the M is for her to do the career path?
This is the irony on my work load being an issue and her timing of the separation, she finished school, lets see how the dynamic of an additional income effects the sitch.
Battling whether or not to take down pictures of the W in the family home, most are of her and the kids, there are a few of her and I together that are mixed in the collage frames. I originally left them up for the kids, but I also have a wedding picture in my shop. Interactions w/ the W have been consistently pleasant for the last two weeks, afraid doing so might interrupt the trend we are on.
Well - why would you take them down?
And are you okay with interrupting the trend if it happens?
My thought on taking them down was to make her question whether I'm always going to be waiting here for her. Before I started DB'ing, I was always reminding my W that she would always be welcomed home... I now wonder if that made it easier for her to leave knowing she had a safety net and that I would always be waiting for her.
As I mentioned in prior post, its been 6 months of pure hell, and just as I'm ready to start making it look to her as though I am detaching (I'm still battling the notion of truly detaching... makes perfect sense, just easier said then done) things start to change. No I do not want to interrupt these changes... as long as they are true progress and not prolonging the "space" she needs.
As a matter of fact I'm gonna ask this again as I only got one response last time and would like to get some other opinions.
We've been doing weekly family dinners, sometimes the W and I will have a cup of tea together during drop offs, we have spoke about doing halloween and x-mas a.m. as a family (I suggested h-ween, xmas to which she said yes to), today she said we should go to the pumpkin patch together (yearly tradition).
Am I making easier for her, if we did not do these things maybe she would miss them and be more inclined to work on the M... or should I take these opportunities to show her my 180's, and also view these times as progress as she could not stand to be around me the prior couple months.
Based off of what you have said. Wouldn't a 180 be making more time for your family? I think you should keep the traditions.
I wouldn't take her photos off the wall to "make her see". In my experience, that always backfire.
The notion is of making someone miss you is not taking stuff away. It's the idea of being your best self so that they begin to question their decision to leave.
So what does your best self look like?
The best me to date is not being critical... while the W has mentioned this, I don't think it was to big of an issue in the M, her actions up to and during the separation made it easy to be... It took a while but I think I'm on to her, much of these actions were to get a reaction out of me, make me the bad guy.
I am a much better listener these days, through DB, DR, and several other books I have learned to acknowledge her feelings, even if I do not agree...
I am working less as it is killing me not being able to see my kids daily, I try not to work at all during the 50% I have them, this is an iffy one though... the contract I am currently working on pays enough to allow for this, not all do.
Doing my best to act "As If" I am happy and content, got a long way to go on this one though as I slip and pursue by bringing up M talks.
Clyde,
I wouldn't take the pictures off the wall. I would enjoy X-mad and Halloween together. Wouldn't kids enjoy that. Those memories will be with them for a life time.
Don't push her away if she is coming closer. Just remember to not pursue and don't initiate M or R talk. Let her bring those up. Thats my two cents.
joejoe1,
Thanks, its been hard not to bring up M or R talk especially since the last few convos went good (I initiated them), its been a week since the last one though, I've been battling picking up the phone and trying to pick up were we left off on the last convo.
Yes, the kids are really looking forward to x-mas together, they have asked about it several times. They also ask about family dinners, they are really enjoying them, it makes me wonder if they are asking the W, and if so is it making her think.
I like having the pictures up for the kids sake and I like seeing them too, good memories I don't want to forget, I will admit though,they do trigger some emotions... I've found myself looking at them thinking, if we could only go back to that day.
Some journaling:
Before I realized it I pursued her today... Todays was a little different as far has who's day it was for the kids... anyhow it made it to where she was picking up the kids near dinner time after she got off work. When we spoke this a.m. about pickup time I mentioned thats almost dinner time, we should just have dinner as a family so she does not have to cook after work, and to let me know what she wants (gave her the options of what I had on hand to prepare) she said lets touch base later and see what time I get off, anyhow she got off work 2 hours early, (too early for dinner), she suggested we all go out for ice cream which we did, we had a good time, kept the convos light, she stayed and hung out at the house for about 30 min., the kids were hanging off her most the time so I can't say she was hanging out to be w/ me.
Hey Clyde, sorry for not checking back in, I've been pretty buried at work lately myself!
First I just want to say part of our "job" here is to challenge you and make you think about things you need to work on. We do it for everyone. Sometimes people feel like they're getting beat up, I know I did too! But it's all coming from a loving place, we really want you to succeed and we want to help you get there.
Your W right now has a very negative mindset. Nothing you say or do is going to change things, she feels like she's done and the M is over. You need to quit fighting her on that because the more you fight for your M the more she's going to push back. DB'ing is about setting your M aside for now and working on yourself. Your W may be 95% to blame for the demise of your M, but guess what, you can't control that. All you can control is your 5%, so that's our focus here. Leave her alone to work on her 95% (or whatever percentage it may be). Become the best "you" that you can be, and let her work through her issues. Once she does she may look back and see a man she regrets leaving, and she may very well want you back at that point.
I want you to have confidence that you WILL succeed, because in the end you will. I hope that success includes recon with your W, but you will eventually get to a point that even if you don't recon you will STILL succeed. You will be stronger, more confident, more independent.
Regarding taking the photos down, you said this:
My thought on taking them down was to make her question whether I'm always going to be waiting here for her.
So in other words, you're thinking about doing it hoping to get a reaction out of her. That shouldn't be your motivation. You've got to quit doing things to try and "snap her out of it". Again, her decision is made (so she thinks right now) and you will NOT change her mind (only she can do that). Plus like you said later, how would your kids react to that. They might think you're trying to "erase" her from your and their lives.
Clyde, if you do decide to take the pictures down, do it only for yourself. Once my STBXW told me she definitively wanted to D, I could no longer stand to look at the wedding picture I had on my nightstand in the MBR. I put it in a drawer. When she moved out of the MBR, I took down another pic of us hanging in the MBR. They were just too painful to look at. STBXW thought I had trashed them, so she took all the wedding photos from the hallway and brought them to her parents' house. The kids were very upset when they noticed that.
I have no idea how you guys are getting the "originally posted by: quote boxes" so please excuse my elementary way of doing it...
You hit the quote button below a post and then it pulls you to a new window with everything quoted. Basically everything you want in quotes type
but with a '=' instead of a ':'. Then at the end of the quote type [?quote] but with a '/' instead of a '?'.
[quote=Clyde] with all do respect, my short comings and the roll the friends played in it are 2 different factors, you can't tell me you do not see how the friends played a significant roll in this.
Maybe they did. But theres nothing to be done about her friends right now. We cant help you to change who your W is friends with or what they are telling her. So I suppose it's relevant, but only insofar as W is going to put herself into an echo chamber - anyone that disagrees with her current worldview is going to get cut out.
So yes I am human and have short comings, no addictions, no abuse, my actions regarding how to provide were always with the family's best interest at heart.
Im not arguing with you. What I am telling you is that your idea of what was the best interest may not be correct. Or your W may not think or thought it was correct. My recommendation is for you to zoom your view out. Or as MWD says, start over with a beginner's mind. Thats what Im saying when I tell you that there are ALWAYS options.
All that said I still understand the only thing I can control are my actions.
This is what is important and what Im struggling with.
What are you doing differently now? What would be different about a future R between you and W?
[quote=Clyde]Mind you she dropped out of MC when she got caught in several lies. Why did she feel it necessary to lie? One of the lies she got caught in was about stealing money, I found out she was doing so by reading about it on her phone it in a text from her friend who was encouraging it, (again, the damn friends meddling in our M). I continued to go to MC for an additional 4 months after she stopped going, I still meet with our pastor weekly to get advice on life, the M, and to nurture my growth as a person... I did not take her list as an assignment I could blow through and move on with life.
I know. Ive read your posts and I understand that shes dishonest and sneaky. That doesnt change your outlook any. All you wrote was that you worked on the list she gave you. Im asking what you are doing now including that list and other things to improve yourself and morph into Clyde2.0.
I could of handled all of or altercations over the past 2 years better, some of the arguments I engaged in were pointless and some of my reactions to things that were said or done did not help our relationship, rather hurt it.
So what are you doing differently now? How are you expressing that in your life?
As far as the work load, I never surrendered my self to that scenario, I am constantly trying to improve the sitch... be it by investing in new machinery, implementing new methods and so forth. We live on the outskirts of San Diego, the cost of living is ridiculous here, no car payments, no extravagant living. The biggest step toward improving this scenario was the wife going to school which we never got to see the benefits of in the R, (her going to school was something we both made happen, I ran the house 2-3 days a week for close to 2 years, while still being the sole provider along with expenses that came with the schooling.)
I get it, my ex was in some form of schooling almost our entire R, and was just poised to get a fulltime job at BD. So I certainly understand the economic frustration of being the only one providing money for the household.
But again, it comes back to the same question - What would be different if you R'd?
Here's the thing. I know you arent a bad guy.
I understand you did your best. I can see you saying that you have faults and want to address them. Im also willing to concede that Im not right about all of the opinions I have.
What I keep coming back to; however, is your words deflect all of the blame from yourself. Onto W, onto W's friends, onto the circumstances of your R. Whatever. I dont really say anywhere where you have looked in the mirror and determined what you did wrong and what you will do better.
THE BREAKDOWN OF THE MARRIAGE IS NOT YOUR FAULT COMPLETELY. But, regardless of who she is friends or family with, SOME of the blame is yours.
Your W is not going to come back to the same relationship. And SHE isnt going to be the one to change first.
Wow....apparently using a : instead of a = is allowed in the quote box.
Sorry for the problems in quoting in a post teaching you how to quote!!
Clyde,
Hmmmm....
I'm in the Army. So I hope what I type don't sound too harsh.
You are on your own journey now. Your marriage at this point is done.
There is no magic advice here for you to tell your wife. She is done with the marriage. She is not coming back to the old marriage or the old you.
What you are doing now is going down your own path and leaving a road open for your wife. You want her to see the new you. And make it where leaving the new you will make her feel like a fool.
No one here is going to place blame on your wife(do she share blame, of course). Will blaming help you in uour journey, NO.
If you want to save your marriage It's all on you. I know it [censored], 25 said it's going to take a Hurclean effort. But guess what we get to be Hurcleaus, who would of thought. But seriously, this is all on you. You wont get no help from your W. That's why all the focus is put on you in this forum.
[quote=Kaizen]Maybe they did. But theres nothing to be done about her friends right now. We cant help you to change who your W is friends with or what they are telling her. So I suppose it's relevant, but only insofar as W is going to put herself into an echo chamber - anyone that disagrees with her current worldview is going to get cut out.[qoute]
I hear you, and to be honest I have already come to the conclusion that dwelling on the part they played only frustrates me...gets me thinking about retaliating by blowing the lid on their A's which would only be a stupid move on my part as the W would be even more pissed @ me, and I realize that if these woman were single it would only make it to were they would be able to hang out even more. I am also confident that its just a matter of time before their actions come back to bite them as it is already for the "sister", her and her new H are already on the rocks 2 weeks into their M, he is already sleeping in the camper!
What I keep coming back to; however, is your words deflect all of the blame from yourself. Onto W, onto W's friends, onto the circumstances of your R. Whatever. I dont really say anywhere where you have looked in the mirror and determined what you did wrong and what you will do better.
If I could go back in time I would of read the books I've read over the past 6 months right when we started to get serious in our R, (kinda like when they go over the emergency exits and oxygen mask before a plane takes off so that you are prepared in case of a disaster), the knowledge and techniques I've learned about in these books and this forum surely would have made a difference if implemented earlier. That being said, I can and have started to implement them at this point. For example:
These days I always try to think what might be the end result before saying/doing something, especially before contesting or giving my opinion on anything. I'm trying to avoid un-necesarry conflict/arguments, thinking about what I do or say before hand has saved me quite a few. At this point in the sitch the only thing I have a say in is our kids, and we have butted heads on a few things regarding the kids.
I am doing a good job at validating, I thought I did a good job at this in the past but now realize validating is about listening and acknowledging, not giving my take.
In the past when we had big arguments where we could not reach an agreement I would go days giving her the silent treatment, I will not to that any more, I waisted precious time together and still did not resolve the issue. A few weeks ago we had an argument, a few hours later I called her and said, "look, I don't like how that went I am sure you didn't either, anyhow I've been thinking about what you were saying and I can see you point of view..." I swear I could hear her Jaw drop over the phone, within a minute you would of never thought we were arguing a few hours earlier.
Clyde,
Great job. Keep up the great work.
Don't forget you will make mistakes. Learn from it and keep moving forward.
Maybe they did. But theres nothing to be done about her friends right now. We cant help you to change who your W is friends with or what they are telling her. So I suppose it's relevant, but only insofar as W is going to put herself into an echo chamber - anyone that disagrees with her current worldview is going to get cut out.
Fixed it for you!
Again - what are your goals? If your goal is to reconcile with your W, then I dont think exploding her friends' marriages is a good way to go about it.
I am doing a good job at validating, I thought I did a good job at this in the past but now realize validating is about listening and acknowledging, not giving my take.
Great insight and a valuable lesson!
Emotions are all over the place the last few days, its been tough.
I slipped and pursued, we were talking the other day and she mentioned her grandma and aunt, I asked her what do they know about our sitch... did they get the bogus TRO version of events, and if so is that playing a roll in her effort to R, if the TRO version is what they think is the truth, surely they would encourage you not to go back. (I know how stupid this was of me to bring up... not only was I pursuing, but I was being confrontational). She instantly shut it down saying she "is not going there right now", I said no problem.
I referred back to our last convo in which she said that she knows that I always loved her and still do, she never didn't feel my love, and that she never felt like a piece of meat in the bedroom, she felt like it was love, not just sex when we were intimate. All this is opposite of what she was saying the past few months and what I felt were significant reasons for wanting to leave, so I asked her what bought this change of heart/opinion and does't this change the dynamic? She again shut the convo down. I asked her if our convos were helping at all and she said "I guess"
(Now again, I know broke DBing protocol pursuing/seeking reassurances).
The "I guess" reply really made me feel good, I know it is not affirmative, but is a far cry from her saying that our convos didn't help or felt like harassment. So the "I guess" coupled with the fact that she is actually letting the convos happen and she is engaging in them makes it hard to stop. I also fear her pride is too to big to allow her to start the convos... My IC (formally our MC) said her pride might prohibit this also, however he also thinks detachment is crucial at this point.
Something else occurred to me as I over analyzed the "I guess" response... do I trust she is telling the truth, if we do R at what point can I fully trust her word? Now as I write this post and again analyzing it, I know at the moment I should believe nothing she says, but man was it refreshing to hear.
Detaching is really, really, messing with my emotions lately, I am far from coming to terms with it as I self analyze the sincerity of my efforts in detaching, this post is getting long so I'll go into that in the next post.
So detaching has not worked good for me, I'll go a couple hours - maybe a day thinking I'm ready to detach, but then I go the opposite, thinking about my love for her. I really started to pound in my head the other day that detaching is the best chance our R has at this point. I'm also starting to think about the dynamic that would play out if she came back tomorrow, would I be on eggshells while she did as she pleased, quite possibly unless she is questioning that I will stick around.
I find myself debating if not pursuing might be enough detachment to trigger the W to work on the M.
In detaching, I battle with giving up my unconditional love for her which has not wavered to this point, I've seen it mentioned that you can detach in a loving way but I don't quite get that one yet.
When we were still living together and I was trying to fix the R all the time, on two or three occasions I told her fine, she can have it her way we are done, when I did this she was always willing to talk about the R the next day.
She's been working doubles all week so we have not had too much interaction, she stopped by last night after work to drop some stuff off for my D, it was late -10:30, she brought in her dinner and ate it at the table, I sat with her but we did not talk to much, I felt sorry for her, it [censored] to eat alone, thats the only reason I can think why did she not eat at her own place... its only 10 minutes away. When she left I wanted to say text me when you get home safe, it was so hard not to.
So while I battle the notion of detaching, I can say I am more dead set than ever to not pursue.
joejoe1,
Thanks for your service!
No It was not to harsh, I appreciate the advice and thoughts.
So the W has the kids for thanksgiving, (we are doing Halloween and xmas as a family) I asked her what are the plans for t-giving, are we going to do it as a family? She said no and referred to last year's t-giving where we got into an argument, said no way is she going to do that again. I said c'mon, that argument could of happened any day, T-giving had nothing to do with it. She then said she is not going to keep the kids away from me on the holiday so I can take them that day and she is going to volunteer in a homeless shelter for the day...WTF? I can't figure this one out.
We discussed the argument last t-giving...(the argument happened when I was trying to talk to her about a sitch in my family that was bothering me... I was opening up to her, her response was to tell me my logic was wrong, I'm a negative person, so on, I went into quiet mode and the day ended on that note.) Anyhow in discussing it I acknowledge that I should of not gone into quiet mode, instead should of waited for another time to tell her how her response made me feel. Her reply is that is how she has aways been, not a sympathetic person, I called BS on this excuse and made some references to her ability to be sympathetic/understanding, and that up to the last year I could go to her for anything and count on her listening and most times giving me good advice. She said yeah, I could of been more understanding that day, its something I am working on.
Before leaving I again mentioned t-giving, I told her the offer still stands... she said we will see. I'm not sure if she is playing hard to get on this one, a few weeks ago when I brought up halloween she acted as if she had not even thought about us doing it as a family, but that it sounded like a good idea, later that night I told my D about h-ween as a family, she told me that mom has been saying that all along, even told her friends she would be w/ me on that night.
So the W has the kids for thanksgiving, (we are doing Halloween and xmas as a family) I asked her what are the plans for t-giving, are we going to do it as a family? She said no and referred to last year's t-giving where we got into an argument, said no way is she going to do that again. I said c'mon, that argument could of happened any day, T-giving had nothing to do with it. She then said she is not going to keep the kids away from me on the holiday so I can take them that day and she is going to volunteer in a homeless shelter for the day...WTF? I can't figure this one out.
We discussed the argument last t-giving...(the argument happened when I was trying to talk to her about a sitch in my family that was bothering me... I was opening up to her, her response was to tell me my logic was wrong, I'm a negative person, so on, I went into quiet mode and the day ended on that note.) Anyhow in discussing it I acknowledge that I should of not gone into quiet mode, instead should of waited for another time to tell her how her response made me feel. Her reply is that is how she has aways been, not a sympathetic person, I called BS on this excuse and made some references to her ability to be sympathetic/understanding, and that up to the last year I could go to her for anything and count on her listening and most times giving me good advice. She said yeah, I could of been more understanding that day, its something I am working on.
Before leaving I again mentioned t-giving, I told her the offer still stands... she said we will see. I'm not sure if she is playing hard to get on this one, a few weeks ago when I brought up halloween she acted as if she had not even thought about us doing it as a family, but that it sounded like a good idea, later that night I told my D about h-ween as a family, she told me that mom has been saying that all along, even told her friends she would be w/ me on that night.
Why are you putting so much pressure on her?
What happened to 'not pursuing'?
Also, you seem very intent on doing things 'as a family'. What are your goals with this? Why are you pushing so strongly to make these special events happen together?
Clyde, honey -
Stop pursuing. Be kind and the picture of a good dad when she sees you, but STOP PURSUING.
And to be honest - your wife is a bad person. SERIOUSLY. A BAD PERSON. I know, I know - you love her, she's been a great partner, yadda yadda yadda. NONE of that matters. SHE FRAMED YOU WITH THE POLICE!!! That's a serious character disorder. I do not know a single person who would do such a horrible thing.
This is not just about winning her back. If she DID come back, it would not last - this kind of character problem doesn't go away without a TON of work (and usually not even then).
I know this doesn't jibe with the woman you thought you were married to. Let me just say, some of us can't really see our spouses without the rose colored glasses until they've been gone for a while. It took me a couple of years after my ex finally left to truly understand the depth of his narcissism and how it affected our marriage (and sadly, 9 years after our divorce, is destroying his relationships with our adult children). I wanted to believe better of him, but I was giving him way too much benefit of the doubt.
Let's imagine for a second that I'm wrong though - that your wife is instead a very weak woman who was so easily swayed by a toxic friend that she would do those horrible things to you and still have no remorse - is that any better? NO.
I know you want to think better of your wife. You want the wife you IMAGINED you had back. But you may find, if you really examine things, that that wife never existed.
Ask yourself - what kind of loving wife hangs out with women who are cheating on their husbands? What kind of loving wife connives to get her husband arrested? (When he's not a wife beater). What kind of HONORABLE HUMAN BEING does those things???
Think back - I bet if you try, you can start to remember other dishonesties, other selfishness on her part. Pull back the curtain and look at those things.
NOW - having said all that - you NEED to do work on yourself. Not to win her back, but to be a complete and whole human being yourself who will be worthy of the next relationship, whether it's with your wife or a more complete human being.
The silent treatment? NEVER ok in a marriage. Workaholic? Maybe by necessity, but maybe a way to avoid intimacy - look at that.
The best thing we can get out of this is a new and improved version of ourselves - with or without the wayward spouse. Focus on that - your self-improvement - and trust that either she will step up to the plate and improve herself too, or you will find a greater love in the future with someone else.
Sorry to be harsh, but what she did is despicable and I don't believe that a "good person" is capable of such acts. And if she's not a good person - why would you want her back?
Ellie
[quote=Clyde]So the W has the kids for thanksgiving, (we are doing Halloween and xmas as a family) I asked her what are the plans for t-giving, are we going to do it as a family?
Pursuit. Also why is it all up to HER? You have choice, too.
She said no and referred to last year's t-giving where we got into an argument, said no way is she going to do that again. I said c'mon, that argument could of happened any day,
why? Why argue with her about an argument? This is another dimension of pursuit, wherein you want to convince your partner that the marriage is actually better than they realize
which i have never seen work, ever.
T-giving had nothing to do with it. She then said she is not going to keep the kids away from me on the holiday so I can take them that day and she is going to volunteer in a homeless shelter for the day...WTF? I can't figure this one out.
you get the kids. Nothing to figure out. (Seriously). And no, I don't believe she's volunteering, unless there is an ulterior motive.
We discussed the argument last t-giving...(the argument happened when I was trying to talk to her about a sitch in my family that was bothering me... I was opening up to her, her response was to tell me my logic was wrong, I'm a negative person, so on, I went into quiet mode and the day ended on that note.)
you are both arguing about an argument. Counter productive.
Anyhow in discussing it I acknowledge that I should of not gone into quiet mode, instead should of waited for another time to tell her how her response made me feel.
Her reply is that is how she has aways been, not a sympathetic person, I called BS on
when someone tells you they are not sympathetic, to YOU, don't argue. Don't try to get them to change in how they treat you.
Believe them.
Before leaving I again mentioned t-giving, I told her the offer still stands... she said we will see. I'm not sure if she is playing hard to get on this one,
I don't want to repeat myself too much or it'll sound harsh to you. But BACK THE HE11 OFF.
Read the Div Busting chapter on NOT pursuing, again. Or review Sandi's guidelines "37" and take them in.
Let them sink in.
ps
your thread title intrigued me. Maybe that is what you wanted.
But you do realize the treehouse had nothing to do with why you are here, right?
I don't mean to sound insulting, but I am curious - there's a lot of pathology in the dynamic you two have.
Are you getting IC?
Why are you putting so much pressure on her?
What happened to 'not pursuing'?
Yeah I blew it, I don't know what the heck I was thinking, we talked 2 more times after that in which I continued the convo... not all was lost though, I feel as though my my position is shifting. After the last talk I realized, I don't know how much farther into the convos I want to go before she apologizes for what she did to me with the police. I know I forgave her already, but she has to own what she did. I was reading other forums where they were discussing how to tell the kids and I realized, we never got the opportunity to that, they watched the police split there family up, that may be their memory of our last day living together as a family. At least at this point today, those are my feelings, we'll see what tomorrow brings... whatever the case I need to stop pursuing, stop pressuring.
I don't want to repeat myself too much or it'll sound harsh to you. But BACK THE HE11 OFF.
Read the Div Busting chapter on NOT pursuing, again. Or review Sandi's guidelines "37" and take them in.
Let them sink in.
I hear you, I read about not pursing In DR/DB, also in the solo partner again and again, but obviously it is time to read them again. I also picked up another book called "No more mr nice guy".
I visit Sandi's Guidelines often, gonna have to try to "let them sink in" even harder. I've found it useful to look over those before seeing or talking to the W, maybe I'll do that more often.
ps
your thread title intrigued me. Maybe that is what you wanted.
But you do realize the treehouse had nothing to do with why you are here, right?
Yes, I completely realize that, did that tongue in cheek.
Yes
When I was away from my kids those 4 days it hurt the worse, I'll never forget those days. But even then I never completely wrote my W off, but I was pissed off and angry.
Today was the first day in a long time since I really let the TRO effect my thoughts about the whole sitch, (I mentioned why a few post back). Perhaps a sign I need to heal from it a little longer, evaluate whether or not I have truly come to terms with it.
I know that prior to all this, if someone came to me and told me they were going through what happened to me, I would tell them to wake up, you deserve better than that.
Again I can not excuse what she did, but in the last 6 months she completely changed... stop going to church/reading her bible, became less involved with the kids (even blew off signing them up for school, and lied that she did), started drinking again (socially), got into social media, and the list goes on. Any how, I just feel like she's going to come back to earth some day.
Clyde,
My w changed in all the ways your did and even more so.
It is shocking and literally...unbelievable. Your desire for her to come back to earth? I get it.
Maybe she will but maybe she won’t. And if she does, it may take a very long time (years) and a lot of work on her part.
In the mean time, there is no time to waste at living your awesome life. Figure out what that looks like without w.
Clyde
being here on this site means in some way, we feel wronged.
Even so, your wife made false allegations against you, to the police. Period.
Shortsighted of her b/c if you go to jail, the dinner plate breaks, but otherwise I believe she would make outrageous allegations again. Either to get custody/money or extort it from you with horrible child abuse threats.
I would not put yourself at risk for this.
I would not have unwitnessed conversations with her. True i'm a L , but I'm speaking as someone who just read your thread.
I would be doing as much the opposite of pursuing as possible. After such a public betrayal, and in front of the kids,
pursuing her makes you look weak, but worse, perhaps, it lends credence to her allegations.
When I was away from my kids those 4 days it hurt the worse, I'll never forget those days. But even then I never completely wrote my W off, but I was pissed off and angry.
what would she have to do or say, for you to write her off, even temporarily?
The answer I am getting from your thread is, pretty much nothing. I worry that you don't have a line beyond which, she cannot go. I worry that she knows this.
Today was the first day in a long time since I really let the TRO effect my thoughts about the whole sitch, (I mentioned why a few post back). Perhaps a sign I need to heal from it a little longer, evaluate whether or not I have truly come to terms with it.
It would take an emotional Hercules to come to terms with this in under a few years. Rug sweeping, however, is a lot faster.
I know that prior to all this, if someone came to me and told me they were going through what happened to me, I would tell them to wake up, you deserve better than that.
when you are in the maze, it's hard to see that. And yes, you deserve better.
Again I can not excuse what she did, but in the last 6 months she completely changed
this ^^^sentence should read, "cannot excuse AND she's completely changed." Meaning, she now treats me with contempt. Has no limits to what she will do if she's angry or frustrated.
... stop going to church/reading her bible, became less involved with the kids (even blew off signing them up for school, and lied that she did), started drinking again (socially), got into social media, and the list goes on.
Any how, I just feel like she's going to come back to earth some day.
after you describe a change in behavior that covers a lot, you seem to think that it makes it MORE likely she'll wake up and revert to her old self.
I'm not at all sure that's true.
I suggest you:
1) trust that this is who she is now and IF/WHEN a change comes,
cross that bridge -
2) MEANWHILE, stop teaching her that she can treat you anyway she wants.
And try not to do what I did, which is to stay in a m based on a partner's potential as a spouse.
Reality is all that you have. And your kids are watching. Model healthy boundaries and enforce them. If you won't enforce them, don't pretend to have them b/c your kids will learn not to have them either.
Its been a minute since my last post but much has happened... little has changed. Still riding the roller coaster of emotions, have had many days were I have not only detached but really questioned if I wanted the W back.
I am really starting to question that if she did come back, will I ever feel secure in our relationship... through all this I have reasoned that if she came back committed, remorseful, and showed me the love she once did everything would fall into place but be better as we would have survived the chaos and pain that has unfolded the last year. Lately I have been thinking about our R prior to the false accusations to the police/the TRO, could I have ever imagined she would do such a thing, and the answer is no... so whats to keep it from happening again but in a more severe manner since her first attempt failed, and was proven to be bogus?
The other thing that I am thinking a lot about is the resentment I am realizing I still have towards her for all this. Yes I was angry as he11 when it first happened, focused all my energy into the court case, exonerating myself and getting 50% custody of my kids. Once that happened I went right into trying to repair my family, forgave my W, and started digging deep to address what I contributed to the sitch, I think that helped mask the resentment I had for the TRO. I started to think about it more as I thought it would help me detach, and it did just that and more, like I mentioned earlier, I'm having spells were I do not even want her back.
I have been reading this forum endlessly (more than before) and feel like I know many of you, not only has your advice helped but reading about your sitch's has too. Doing so has really made me reanalyze and question if she is in a full blown MLC?
Last week we got into an argument in which I unloaded on her about our final days as a family in one house. I pointed out how the kids were not eased into the new living/family arrangements, how I could of been shot when the police responded to what they were told was a hostage sitch w/guns. I told her I will no longer cover for her when the kids ask when and if mom will be coming home, rather my response will be "I don't know, you will have to ask her - mom decided to leave and knows she is welcome back." Surprisingly for the first time the W did not shut the convo down, she listened to all I had to say, tried to give an excuse here and there but they were all ones I had heard and were able to debunk (these wee not feelings she had that needed to be validated - rather complete fabrications). In the end I could tell she was feeling what I had to say.
I know this interaction would be considered pursing/pressure, but I will say it felt good to get off my chest.
After that, none of it was bought up again, interactions were as normal as they have been with the exception of a "goodnight" text she sent the next night, which was out of the norm.
I need to go do the school run now but I will post more later today as we had an even bigger blow up which led to me alerting the "pseudo BIL" that there are some truths he should know about...
I know I have some 2x4's coming my way!!!
"I don't know, you will have to ask her - mom decided to leave and knows she is welcome back."
Why are you including the bolded part? so you can be seen as 'the good guy'?
"I don't know, you will have to ask her - mom decided to leave and knows she is welcome back."
Why are you including the bolded part? so you can be seen as 'the good guy'?
Because that is the truth, mind you I have her friends telling my kids lies about me, last occurrence was 4 weeks ago. When my kids tell me about the W's friends talking about me the W says it never happened.
This also brings me to my last C session, the C laid into me when I told him how I was only focusing on what I did to damage the M. (He was also our MC when she was still going) he told me to stop, that while we were going together I was the only one who was willing to be accountable for my actions, he then asked me to give him one example of her owning her actions while we were in MC, I could not, he pointed out that the closest she came to being accountable was to acknowledge but then make excuses. He then reminded me that she was the one that lied in MC, and then stopped going, so in his point of view she is the one at fault.
I explained DB'ing to him and while he completely agreed with detaching, he told me to stop beating myself up... it's on her, I did everything I could and more.
Because that is the truth
So? Do your kids need the full truth here about what goes on between mom and dad?
I get how much it absolutely [censored] to not tell your kids the truth, but this is about them, not you. Don't LIE to them, but they don't need to know the details, either. One thing you absolutely CANNOT ever do is poison your children against the other parent. Don't. You will hurt them. Quite likely for life. And you'll damage YOUR relationship with them.
Kids are smart. They'll figure out the truth on their own. And they'll love both of you anyway, because they're both of your kids. Would you honestly have it any other way?
So I took her up on the invite to take the kids to the pumpkin patch, she seemed depressed when we were there, she was short with the kids and did not seem as though she was having fun. The kids and I on the other hand has a blast, enjoyed every minute of it.
the next day was h'ween, we met at the family home, went and got dinner and took the kids trick or treating. Again I had a blast, she seemed to be enjoying herself also... and of course the kids could not have been anymore stoked.
The next day we were talking on the phone, she mentioned how cute the kids were to which I responded "yes they were, that was fun", her response was "yeah for the kids", I should of let it roll off my back but slipped. I asked her if she did not have fun, she said she did it for me, she would of preferred to be with her friends. I said that sounds motherly, I'm sure the kids were glad you were there, she said that it was her day to have the kids and she could of just taken them with her, and that she wanted to make sure that I did not read into it thinking it was more than it is, and any other time we are together for that matter. I said I get that, and it is not... but that does not mean you have to make it sound like you were miserable during it.
Things escalated, and again I unloaded... her comment about preferring to be with her friends compounded with some issues I have been trying to address w/ our D13.
Our D13 has not believed a word her mom has said since she started not coming home with out notice prior to the separation, many times the W would lie to her saying she was somewhere she was not and our D13 would know better. Then when my D13 found and read the court/TRO docs at the W's house she really lost all respect and trust for her mom.
On top of that our D told me about a week ago that she had been reading her mom's text for the year prior to the separation, and that she knew exactly what was going down up to the separation, she told me about things I did not even know about. My heart sank for her, as if this all was not hard enough!
My first course of action was to reprimand her for doing that and make sure she was no longer doing it, to which she assured she was not, (I believe her as both the W and I got new phones which require a finger print to access). At that point I did my best to explain to her that her mom is in a difficult time, and just like the TRO she has done and said things that are out of the ordinary for her, and to not take anything to heart.
Through the text she read (on top of what she saw and heard with her own eyes) our D13 saw what part the friends played in our demise. She was also seeing that her mom was lying about being at work, instead hanging out w/ her friends foregoing family outings and so forth.
All this has resulted in an even deeper deterioration of trust for her mom than I could of ever imagined. That is how D13 finally confessed about reading her moms text, D13 has been OCD"ing on whether or not her mom is telling the truth constantly, if she is at work she does not believe her and calls her non stop, ask me if I think she is at work etc... my normal response is yeah, why does it matter don't harass your mom. I finally sat her down and asked why she is so fixated on it, that is when she told me about reading the text on top of everything else. I said I believe that your mom is where she said she is these days but to let this be a lesson to her... I asked her why she does not believe her mom to which she responded "because she lies", I pointed out that even though her mom is where she said she is, you are having a hard time believing her because of the lies she told in the past, trust and integrity are something you do not want to compromise as they are hard to regain.
So back to how the comment about the W preferring to be with her friends and this scenario compounded...
I told the W that she did the right thing by putting her family before her friends, and that if that was the case all along things would be different, instead she has forsaken her real family for a friends that she calls her sister/family.
Thats when I broke the news about D13 having no trust/respect for her, and how on top of everything else D13 has seen, she was reading the W's text (yes I know this was not the time to bring that up, emotions got high). I told her to look at what she is doing to her family, when is it going to stop.
She again started to rewrite history and claimed the friends said noting/did nothing, I pointed out that not only did I see text to the contrary, so did D13, as a matter of fact D13 saw more as she was in her phone long before me and more often.
I referenced some specific text the pseudo "sister" sent and how they clearly influenced the W, and that I never saw a single text encouraging her to work on the M. I said I'm still tempted to blow the "sisters' cover to the BIL. The W said go ahead, the "sister" and her have already cut me off at the pass... he won't believe any of it.
So I hung up and text the BIL, "I think it is in your best interest you call me, I have some truths you should be aware of... I'll back them up with a polygraph which I am willing to pay for." He never replied. At this point it is in his hands.
I do wonder what effect contacting the BIL will have w/ the W and I's chance at R.
I spoke w/ the W again later that night, I told her that I feel really bad for her and how things are unfolding w/D13, and that I have lost a lot of sleep over it. I explained how I have been handling it, but that I am not sure it's helping the D13's point of view.
We talked about the D13 and her going to C together (we talked about it after D13 found the court docs but it never happened), she said D13 should go, and I said they both should go together, she said yeah probably.
Prior to all this, during the convo last week were I vented about the TRO etc., I told the W how I am still going to C and that it really helps, she should consider going back to IC, She said you are probably right, I will when I can afford it (this response blew me away). I responded by telling her I would pay for it and left it at that. It has not come up again.
Because that is the truth
So? Do your kids need the full truth here about what goes on between mom and dad?
No, they sure do not need all the truth. The response "she left and can come back when she wants" is one I am battling w/, so far my response has been something like "I don't know, you are going to have to ask mom". I would love to hear as much advice on this one as I can get.
My S4 & S7 ask at least once a week, (its been 3 months since she moved out).
So again, about the arguments/convos... bring on the 2x4's, as a matter of fact if you are out there sandi I would love to hear your point of view.
I know I should not be engaging in the arguments, but when the last two have happened I told myself "thats it, I'm done with the W" and proceeded to vent.
The convo/argument a week ago (about the TRO) I kind of feel as though it was necessary, and felt a weight lifted.
Yesterdays convo/argument I think I should of handled differently no matter if I am done with the M or not. I do truly feel bad for the W about the state of her relationship w/ D13, even though she made that mess.
As I mentioned a few post back (and another DB'er suggested many post back), I'm really starting to think she is in s MLC. I read on a site about MLC that those with a troubled home life during their childhood are much more susceptible to go through a MLC.
The W had an insane upbringing... mother was a meth addict for 30 years straight, got clean 12 years ago. Father has always been an alcoholic, still is. He beat up on her mother constantly, and eventually went to jail for attempted murder for stabbing someone in a bar fight.
While he was in jail the mother turned their house into a meth lab w/ the help of the W's older brothers who were only teenagers at the time. My W at age 12 walked down to 7-11 and called the police reported the meth lab. The exact same scenario happened a year or two later.
One of those brothers is now doing 85 to life for murder, attempted murder amongst several other things. The other brother is in and out of jail and has 13 kids by different women.
My W partied as a teenager like most do, but eventually gravitated to the church, when I met her at age 20 she was a devoted christian going to church every sunday and reading her bible daily, that stopped 6 months ago.
The closest thing she had to a normal family life was for about 2 years (age 14) that she lived with her aunt and uncle who are the all american family. My W reminisces about those years as being very formative and secure. That ended when they sent her back to her mothers as she was getting in trouble to much, I've always assumed they sent her back in fear of the influence she would be on their kids as she started to get into trouble, my W says she deserved to be sent back but I can tell it was a painful experience for her.
Somehow through all that madness my W turned out normal (I'll go a step further than normal and say phenomenal mother and wife), she has always been complimented about her motherly instincts, and always put her family first, as I've said before I could not of asked for a better mother to my children or a better wife up till about the last year.
She is still a good mother (aside from tearing our family apart) but has changed, for example my D13 was telling about a BBQ they went to not long ago, when they got there my W told the kids to get lost, she was not there to hang out w/ them, my D13 said mom did not even check on them through out the night. My W used to shield my daughter from bad influences of her friends, now my D13 tells me some of the stuff she hears while around these people and I'm disturbed enough to bring it up to my W, to which her reply is D13 needs to mind her own business and not be telling me about other peoples sitch's. The pseudo "sister" has given my D13 cloths that she should not be wearing (High cut shorts, tops that reveal to much) and my W is fine with it, it has resulted in a few arguments over the past few months.
Stop. Stop analyzing. Stop talking. Stop DOING anything. What are you gaining from this? Anything at all? Focus on you, focus on your kids. GAL. That's it!
If you want to reconcile the M, nothing but the above will help. If you're done with the M, nothing but the above will help. You say that "I thought I was done so I let her have it!" Did that make you feel any better? (for more than ten minutes?) Is it worth it to antagonize someone has ALREADY FILED FALSE POLICE REPORTS?
Detach. It's imperative for your own mental and emotional health.
bring on the 2x4's
I know I should not be engaging in the arguments, but when the last two have happened I told myself "thats it, I'm done with the W" and proceeded to vent.
Im not sure what there is to say...
You already know that you are hurting your cause every time you open your mouth. Your words come across incredibly 'judgey' of her, and Im sure she is not interested in that right now.
W called today to see if I was home so that she could pick up the support payment, I said yes and asked her to pay for her auto insurance (we still share a policy, I've been tempted to tell her she has x amount of time to get her own policy) she said she did not have the money right now - maybe next week. I reminded her that next week will be when the next months ins. payment will be due, she said I know nothing I can do I don't have the money. I reminded her that on top of floating the family household I now have to pay support, and have cut my hours dramatically so that I can be w/ the kids on my days... so I do not have the $ either.
She said if she gave me the $ right now she would have to borrow the $ from someone, then there was silence - after a moment I said fine, you can pay me next week. We said by and hung up.
I sat there and thought about it for a minute, and decided that no I am not ok with it, she choose to be in this sitch - not me! So I called her back and told her that she needed to pay it... she again said I'm gonna have to borrow it from somebody, (I wanted to say "why don't you borrow it from one of your friends that encouraged you to walk out!) but did not.
Instead I told her sorry, but you are the one that wants things this way, not me... and now that things are this way, aren't you borrowing the $ from me? I'm not in the position to do so and even if I was I don't know that I am ok w/ it anymore, and as a matter of fact I think it is time she got her own policy.
She said fine, she'll bring the money with her, and look in into getting her own policy next month.
I feel she needs to feel the full extent of what she is creating, me paying or even fronting the ins. $ is only making it easier for her, I can no longer be her nice guy any more, look at what it has gotten me thus far.
I did call her a few hours later and asked if she was good on groceries, she said yes, she went shopping a few days ago.
Any thoughts/comments?
Im not sure what there is to say...
You already know that you are hurting your cause every time you open your mouth. Your words come across incredibly 'judgey' of her, and Im sure she is not interested in that right now.
Again, that damn roller coaster my emotions are on lately...
Stop. Stop analyzing. Stop talking. Stop DOING anything. What are you gaining from this? Anything at all? Focus on you, focus on your kids. GAL. That's it!
If you want to reconcile the M, nothing but the above will help. If you're done with the M, nothing but the above will help. You say that "I thought I was done so I let her have it!" Did that make you feel any better? (for more than ten minutes?) Is it worth it to antagonize someone has ALREADY FILED FALSE POLICE REPORTS?
Detach. It's imperative for your own mental and emotional health.
I used to joke that I prefer to learn my lessons the hard way... it is not so funny anymore.
Using the TRO as a tool in helping to detach might not have been the best mode of thought.
GAL... I play guitar, it is the only thing that completely takes my mind off the sitch, I have been making a lot more time to do so even if it's @ 11:00 at night (the only perk to having an empty house)... I have also started working on the house, I am remodeling a bathroom at the moment, this has helped, but I find myself dwelling on the sitch as I am doing it, heck in the corner of my mind I have even thought what would the W want in here if she was to come home.
The kids and I built an outdoor dinner table last weekend, we made some good memories and had a lot of fun.
Detach.
Protect yourself. And your kids.
Work on being the best you that you can be.
The rest you don't have control over.
Your wife had a seriously messed up childhood. Sadly it's not an uncommon thing to see here, where the WAS reverts to repeat or reconstruct the dysfunction from their childhood.
In your wife's case, do you think it's possible she's recreating the drug addictions of her family of origin? Frankly, it's either that, or she's having affairs.
This could take a long time. I suggest you read Irish's thread on the Midlife Crisis section of this forum. His wife reminds me a bit of yours, and he's had to deal with his teenage daughters and their anger at their mom. It's been over two years; I think you might gain a lot of wisdom reading his thread.
You did a good job setting a boundary on the car insurance. Does she have an order for temporary support? Has your lawyer given you a good idea of what your finances would be like after a divorce? Reality is going to settle in quickly for your wife, sometimes it's wise to settle the financial issues quickly before she realizes it's not going to be as easy to get by as she thinks. She's already shown that she's capable of some pretty dastardly things to get her way. Settling things before she decides she can't live on a fair settlement and starts figuring out how to screw you over financially can be a wise move.
On a lighter note...
I was telling my dad about the alerting the BIL... he shook his head and said "Do you remember the flying monkeys in the Wizard of OZ? Thats exactly who these woman are (referring to the W's "sister" and friends), haven't you already seen what these woman are capable of?"
Later that night he text me... "have the flying monkeys arrived yet?".
flying monkeys is an established term relating to the "helpers" of disordered personalities who use them to do their bidding. I don't recall your thread, but are you perhaps dealing with a borderline?
In your wife's case, do you think it's possible she's recreating the drug addictions of her family of origin? Frankly, it's either that, or she's having affairs.
I know she is not on drugs, she has used her childhood and those of her friends as an example that "they went through split families and ended up ok". Now that comment is up for much debate as none of her friends have anything close to solid relationships as you all have read and IMO have deep character flaws. As far as the W, yeah she did turn out fine up to the last year but the more I look into it the more I feel her change is related to her childhood.
I am not trying to be ignorant, but I am pretty certain she is not or has not had an affair, I have looked into the possibility of OM extensively and turned up nothing... I am very aware that there is not much stopping her from engaging W/ OM at this point.
I do struggle w/ the possibility of OM especially after the R talks we have had over the past month... most talks have brought what I thought was resolution to the points she was making for leaving or at least laid out a plan on how to handle certain scenarios in the future, so w/ that, why not commit to working on the R?
She says she has no interest in me or any OM at this point... she just wants to work on herself and I should do the same. I hope and pray this is the truth, and this helps me stand.
I have seen a kink in her armor, at times I can see she is considering R, for example... when she stopped saying ILY, I asked her if I should just stop to... she said yes - so I did (this was 6 months ago). I went about a week and it was eating me up, I brought a really nice leather bound journal and wrote in it daily... each entry started w/ I love you and then went into a memory such as our first kiss, what she wore on our first date etc. I did this daily for about 3 months, when she moved out I stuck it in her stuff, when she saw it she told me she was not going to read it.
About a month ago we had an argument about the "sister" telling our D13 not to show the "boogie man" (referring to me) about clothes she was giving her (D13 told me immediately). When I confronted the W about it it turned into an argument, at that time my W shook her head and said something like "see this is exactly why I'm here (her apartment), I don't even know why I bothered reading that journal", I could see in her face she slipped and did not want me to know she was reading it.
(BTW I know the journal is a severe form of pursuit, this however was before I even understood the concept of pursuit/distancer. I continued the ILY journal with the thought I would only give her the rest of the entries after we R, but stopped not long ago as I realized it is the opposite of detaching.. yes I am a romantic at heart, perhaps one of the biggest obstacles w/ me detaching.)
This could take a long time. I suggest you read Irish's thread on the Midlife Crisis section of this forum. His wife reminds me a bit of yours, and he's had to deal with his teenage daughters and their anger at their mom. It's been over two years; I think you might gain a lot of wisdom reading his thread.
Will do, thx for the recommendation!
You did a good job setting a boundary on the car insurance. Does she have an order for temporary support? Has your lawyer given you a good idea of what your finances would be like after a divorce? Reality is going to settle in quickly for your wife, sometimes it's wise to settle the financial issues quickly before she realizes it's not going to be as easy to get by as she thinks. She's already shown that she's capable of some pretty dastardly things to get her way. Settling things before she decides she can't live on a fair settlement and starts figuring out how to screw you over financially can be a wise move.
Yes we have a order for support, the first order was insane... it got put into place when the TRO got dismissed, so when I walked into court I had no access to my financial records as I was not allowed near my house or shop, she and her lawyer lied about my income but I was able to have it adjusted 3 months later. At that point I actually agreed to pay more than necessary knowing that she could not make it on her own here in San Diego. I'm ok w/ this as she is not set up plush, (I wish she had a nicer apartment in a nicer area for my kids sake) she just started 2 jobs working doubles on the days she does not have the kids, life is not as easy as I thinks she thought it would be.
As far as assets, we have a lot of debt, the house is at market value and my shop is on the property, she knows her support is connected to the shop. So the agreement is that I will keep the house and all debt, no brainer for her as if liquidated all that would be left is debt. We will see if this is how it plays out, I don't know that it is worth pursuing anything else at this point as the only other option would be sell and split the debt and in the process cement our fate.
You did a good job setting a boundary on the car insurance. Does she have an order for temporary support?
Also during the first court date I agreed to give her a one time lump some of money for her apartment, furniture, getting set up, etc. She did not work that much the first 3 months, brought unnecessary things, now she is in a money crunch. She should of started working right away and budgeted better.
I also know she thought I would be on the hook for her lawyer fees... that is were I drew the line, as a matter of fact when that came up I told her I was tempted to go after her for mine as most of my L fees occurred due to false allegations she made, she knew I was right so that did not happen.
I was reading Wonka's thread "Voyage into the MLCer mind". Wow, what a resource!
She mentioned her grandmothers passing being a possible trigger for her MLC (please correct me if I am interpreting this wrong).
A few months before the treehouse incident in which my W says was a turning point in our M, the grandmother to one of her brothers (different father) passed away.
I'm going to give some history on their R as I feel the dynamics of it are very relevant, and the whole scenario is something my W has brought up during our discussions as a reason the W resents me.
So to be clear, this was not my W's biological GM, rather the the GM to her oldest brother. There were a few very short times my W stayed w/ her growing up. My w referred to her as nana.
Nana had 3 grown kids who lived at home all their life and all had drug addictions at some point, she unintentionally facilitated these habits and there lack of drive to be independent, this woman also was a big facilitator in my MIL addictions/vises, and my BIL lack of independence/drive in life (he is the only BIL w/out a rap sheet however).
Shortly after the birth of our oldest D13, nana's health started to decline, she still financially provided for all these people via several refi's of her house, cooked, did all there laundry, and so forth. As her health slowly declined so did the state of her home, none of these people put much of an effort into caring for her or her there home.
We visited her often, at least once a week - the W and D even more. We noticed the house declining w/ her health, not much we could do as far as the house was concerned as she had all those people living w/ her, the place was far from cleanly and to compound matters she had a 16 year old blind dog (she refused to put out of its misery) that had no control over its bladder/bowel movements and would just do it business throughout the house. While attempts to clean up after the dog were made, it was almost pointless, the carpet retained much of the dogs waste... it got so bad that when we entered the house, it would make us gag.
Needless say, this is not somewhere we wanted our D hanging out crawling around on the ground. While we were still going there we would have to hold our D and not let her down it was so bad.
Eventually the W and I decided together that we would no longer take our D there for sanitary/health reasons, instead my W would pick up her nana at least once a week and take her out w/ our D. Beyond that we continually invited her to our house, in the 12 years we lived here before she passed she only came to our house once! Her grown kids and grandson (BIL) were sadly her only focus in life.
Even though my W would pick her up at least once a week, the fact we were no longer taking our D to her house caused resentment, at one point my BIL called our D a spoiled princess, was berating my W about it and so forth, (I talked to him about it but it did not stop until I took him outside and made it clear I would not tolerate it).
Nana showed her resentment by not calling my W, refusing to come to our wedding, and finally bringing my W to tears on her b-day by standing her up for their traditional breakfast date by not returning her calls days prior or on her b-day, no b-day wishes at all.
At that point I had it and wrote the lady off, I told my W my feelings about it and she seemed to understand my point of view.
Beyond what was happening at that moment my W had confided in me that when she was a kid it really hurt her when nana would pick up BIL from whatever chaotic situation they were living in and take him to disneyland, or to spend the weekend at her house etc, leaving my W behind, Christmas was always a different experience for the BIL as she spoiled him and so forth.
It did not take me long to realize that of the some 100+ pictures on nana's walls not a single one was of my W.
I think you get the picture, as a protective H, seeing the pain my W was enduring from this her R w/nana, I was over it.
My W quickly got over the hurt of the b-day incident, and tried to resume their outings as often as possible.
When the economy crashed in '08-'09 we were on a severe budget, house went into foreclosure, I had a client default on a $60K project, there was zero work in the construction industry. We were on the top ramon diet, times were rough (ironically I remember thinking during this time... if the W is ever going to leave me now would be the time!)
Part of this budgeting included gas, nana lived 30 miles away... W seemed to be on the same page as me as far as that being an expense we could cut down on, beyond that we talked how nana could come our way once in a while.
So after BD, the wife now sees it as me being controlling and keeping her from seeing her nana... she has brought this up many times. The W also seems to forget the condition of her house and why we stopped taking our D there.
The irony is she was telling me she did not have gas money the other day, maybe this will help her understand my position. (The whole gas/budget scenario has also been levied against me regarding other family members of hers who have never been to our house... I'll touch on that in another post though)
So back to my initial thought, maybe nana passing triggered the W into MLC, when she has brought up her nana as her reasons for resenting me, I have felt/wondered if this scenario carried more weight than I thought, reading wink's post a light bulb went off.
Correction:
reading wonka's post a light bulb went off.
Tough day, I'm missing my W tremendously... just balled my eyes out, came on all the sudden.
Being in the family house is rough, memories and reminders everywhere I turn, never mind the pictures everywhere.
I'm fighting the urge to call her and see if she would elaborate on the tid bits of hope she has put out there.
I am feeling like a POS... posting earlier about her nana, it reminded me of all she has been through in life, at times I feel like I am just one more person in her life who let her down. These thoughts make it hard to detach as I feel when she notices I have detached, that will be conformation that I am just one more of those who let her down... I know ultimately we are in this sitch because of her decision to walk out on the M, but I still feel as though I can't win, pursue - and I am pressuring, detach - and I let her down.
Had a convo w/ the W yesterday, for a few hours I was really optimistic of our future... later in the day I found my self shaking my head thinking really... this is why you blew up our family... pathetic. How can I get over this if we move forward. Anyhow I will journal the details of the convo later when I have more time.
I heard a song for the first time this a.m. that I wanted to share with you guys. Really sums up how I am feeling lately... I think many of you might relate, check it out (you can find it on you tube) It's by Lucas Nelson - name of the song is "Find Yourself".
Enjoy fellow DB'ers
detach - and I let her down.
Can you expand on this? I dont really understand this line of thinking.
detach - and I let her down.
Can you expand on this? I dont really understand this line of thinking.
So I'm not patting myself on the back here, but I am the only person in her life that has not turned my back on her... even in her deep fog she has acknowledged this and said that no one in her life has
ever loved her the way I do.
As you have read, her biological family has turned their backs on her time and time again. Even the pseudo "'sister" has, they went close to 4 years NC with my W continually reaching out to her, all the girls in her tight nit circle of friends have done so at one point... her next closest friend after the "sister" did not invite my W to her wedding. These things all hurt my W.
Anyhow I think you get the picture of what I feel is a sad circumstance in my W's life.
I at times have wondered if all the W has done was a pro-active defense mech she subconsciously deployed to preempt what she thought was coming... me turning my back on her. I also felt at times, through out all this as things got rough over the past year, she is waiting for me to turn my back on her, at that point she can say "see, you are just like the rest of them".
I want clarify as I feel that in my saying "I'm the only one who has not turned my back on her" sounds very self righteous... I know some of my actions and words have let her down, and perhaps that is just as traumatic as turning my back on her, but I have yet to turn my back on her.
I'm interested to her your thoughts/advice. Thanks