25yearsMLC 10 Years Later I FILE D part 6

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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2748844#Post2748844

25, my only advice re: the divorce is try to get as much as you can in present assets - a bird in the hand IS worth two in the bush (or in the murky future).

Originally Posted By: kml

25, my only advice re: the divorce is try to get as much as you can in present assets - a bird in the hand IS worth two in the bush (or in the murky future).

OH YES I AGREE 100%

Amen. (And in that sense, h plays it well. His war of attrition.)

But at such an enormous personal cost. I cannot bring myself to believe he doesn't care about our kids. I cannot believe that he is indifferent to how they see him. In fact I think the reason he's not in touch is b/c he knows they are unhappy with him. He cannot endure being around people who are not FINE with him. He can claim I brainwashed our 31 y/o son, 28 y/o d and 20 y/o d all he wants.

It's still his refusal to cope with hard emotional situations, that paralyzes him.

BTW, some months ago he told d20, that he "has trouble repairing relationships." Start by showing up...

I think that means he feels entitled to forgiveness without feeling or expressing remorse, and wants maybe one dramatic gesture to solve it all.

I know he told me he was "tired of always apologizing" to our d's for missing 2 years of their schooling, the first time he went to Alaska. (I asked each of them separately if they felt they had hashed things out enough and neither of them recalled him ever saying he was sorry.) Yet I don't think he was consciously lying.

Can you imagine spending your golden years with that? No, me neither. And now I won't have to.

I'm not getting bogged down in that, just smh observing.

I think I'm getting out of my rut. Too many bills to pay with so little income so I'm keeping my lights on, and sending out more resumes and making calls that I hope are not sounding pathetic. Saying I 'have a sense of urgency" in my job hunt and hoping I don't start sounding like an Amway person when I see my friends.

Thanks for the input KML and all.

I agree with kml and I think there's a lot to be said for a clean break settlement. In my D we took our total assets, each took what we 'came in with' and divided the growth 50/50. Having a clear and simple formula seemed to help settle things and then it was just a case of declaration, info exchange and checks to confirm the assets.

What I like now is that my finances are my own and his are his. And whatever he may think about our settlement is up to him and doesn't impact on me. Of course our circumstances are very different to yours - a shortish marriage and no kids together. But there's a lot to be said for a complete severance of all financials with no ongoing joint monetary transactions.

I'm with you on the frugality and I lived like that for about 2 years until things were settled. I'm lucky enough to be financially comfortable now, and I appreciate it all the more for that precarious period of time. Good luck with your job hunt too..

xx

hi Sotto,

again, I agree that a lump sum would solve this. I pray it's still there as I'm not old enough to touch it ( h is)

Yes it would "be wrong" of h to grab it and the accounts themselves are not supposed to, but I've seen how ineffective the assumption he will do no wrong, has worked.

I have been one to tell others "well the 401k requires both signatures" and "Take the non paying spouse back to court for contempt"

about 100 times. I used to think the women (usually) were weaklings to let their h's skip out of CS or alimony. I'd say "go back to court. HE CAN'T DO THAT."

And now I see what all the hoopla (great word) is about.

THEY DO IT ANYWAY...so then I have to gin up the funds for another round of court. The adage "possession is 9/10ths of the law" is practically speaking, often true.

I have to borrow from siblings who are appalled that h's antics would work, and thank GOD I'm from a large family.

At this point my kids are so upset and furious at h (not all about me, but I'm sure much of what they feel is based on his mistreating me) THEY would be disappointed if I did not fight h. I mean that. They have said this clearly. Like kind of pushy tbh.

SIDENOTE -

i loved my dad.
But for most of my life the negative feelings I had for my dad, which polluted much of our interacting, was based on how he treated my mom.

This^^^ is not a new thing.

ANYHOW

H has told me & our kids his dad did wrong by h's mom. Which was true. My MIL worked 2 jobs almost the whole time I knew her. And she smoked and retired and 4 years later got lung cancer and died a miserable death. FIL married 4 times and invested well with his master's degree (MIL helped him get). Bought chunks of beautiful land and has 2 stunning homes in Mexico and the pacific NW.

His 4th wife is a widow with money and a lovely heart. Their m has lasted 25 years and she is the reason why.

They have not reached out to me, and I don't think they've reached out to the kids either. This is hurtful. But then, they are not the reaching out types.

BTW, NOTE to LBS's with inlaws...

when my mom died, an ex BIL attended her funeral, and 3 former SILs' (In fact, only one former inlaw was not there & I truly think he would have been, if he'd known she had passed and also, they did not have kids together> maybe that would have factored in as well).

My siblings and I really deeply appreciated their coming, and we saw it as a great sign of affection and respect for my mom.

When my FIL dies, I expect to do the same. Some of my friends think that is so weird, but it's not weird to me. FIL is the last bio grandparent of my kids, and he was in my life longer than my own dad.

ANY THOUGHTS on that? Does it look opportunistic? H would know that it's a "custom" in my family to have all "former family members" there.

BACK TO H,

H is known in our nuclear family, to be bitter about the way his dad treated his mom. And my h NEVER said a word to his dad. They are not a family to work things out, or speak their feelings OR resolve things. I already slapped my forehead about this and when I date again, I would want to know how the man's family worked conflicts out. OR if he follows their lead.

H's family has a overtly unhealthy habit of holding onto their resentments and letting them fester sometimes, beyond recognition. His grandmother, great aunt, both his parents...and him.

That cycle stops with my kids. And it really has. Man, they're almost pushy about "NO SECRETS"...but I'd so rather have that.

I'd bet a lot of money that my FIL has no idea my h feels that way about him. In fact, FIL once discussed his r's with his 2 sons, as "the closest a father can be to his sons."

(WTF? That is Such an over the top comment)

And the kicker is that it is so NOT true, (but FIL is now a multimillionaire and who wants to argue with THAT??)

BACK TO EARTH, my point is that when WAS leave or mistreat the LBS, why are they amazed that their kids see them in a new unflattering light? Do they not care about it,

OR do they avoid looking at it forever, AND OR do they figure out that "LATER" they will fix things.

Or maybe h is banking on his inheritance to ease back into r's with our kids. ( Like his dad did with him. How touching.)

I don't begrudge my kids getting money, FOR SURE

but they are not like h and his brother. They speak up. (Hence the N/C from h, I guess)

If your h smacks you around BUT HE'S NICE TO THE KIDS, the kids won't feel safe around him, it's obvious to us.

Sotto, how long did your untangling of the poop, last? I'm at 11 months from seeing h off and filing for D as of 10/18 I think (thereabouts). I don't care about the forks and spoons, but I am mad at myself for not taking more. I SO underestimated what would matter to h. SMH at myself. I recall telling the kids I did not want to be accused of "taking it all" so I deliberately got about 1/4 of our personal property.

Hard to remember what you don't see in front of you but I do notice a few things per month that I wish I still had. Which is totally tolerable.

When I can feel financially safe, I'll jettison out of this funk. Sounds material and it is. I want security and freaking deserve it.

Plus, I'm told repeatedly that h wants to finalize things as do I.

SIDENOTE _my lawyer tells me what h's lawyer tells her, that h told him. Like how "H hates her guts". Aside from being incredibly offensive and hurtful, what's the point of sharing that with my L and what is HER point in telling me??

It's way too much info
Am I the only lawyer who keeps her client's remarks to herself?

I suppose it could be some form of aggressive strategy to intimidate.

But it just hurts my feelings, AND OR angers me AND OR motivates me more towards litigation.
WTF?

Once it is over, H can openly work (and stop pretending he's "retired") and gobble up the kibbles from OW and his salary and partnership, and fishing and hunting and enjoying the "Brisk, NOT cold!" winters on the tundra.

And I can zoom forward. I really believe 90% of my present funk, (which is not really 24/7), is about money fears. So I want/need to solve those.

Okay, rambling. Thanks for the feedback.

some of what I'm really asking is an almost universal DB question.

Did our WAS change and why? OR were they always this way and we did not see it, or they hid it well enough?

Why did WE not see it sooner, or address it, and thus, what can we do to avoid this event happening in our next r?

As for reconciliations, they do happen. Careful thorough piecing is the only way for it to work IF it can.

I read an interesting anecdote/metaphorical story the other day about recon.

I see us as having big internal "Divorce BOXes" with all the aspects of it inside. There are many angles and mixed feelings, and conflicting hopes and of course our deep mourning and fears.

Some of mine is focussed on wondering about h. We were together so long. I "wonder" about a recon (insane as that is, when I'm fully honest there is residue of hope in one area of the box. I was married longer than not. I tend to forgive myself for this but I don't speak of it to others. They will see it as me being weak or delusional.

A huge underlying piece is that I am sad b/c I see no way for it to ever occur. That is a first for me.

I hope but doubt we can be friends some day, which is a truly sucktacular aspect to this situation b/c a long term marriage like ours, is ending in such an ugly way. The anecdotal metaphor - (And you know how I love my metaphors!) is this:

Let�s say I lost my arm in a combine harvester. Once fed through the thresher, there wasn�t much arm left. Just some ragged bone and sinew, and a loss of blood that nearly killed me. But hey, I survived. I miss my arm deeply. It was a good arm. I�m human.

Oh, I forgot to mention, it wasn�t a farming accident. Um, my ex shoved my arm through a combine harvester.

So I don�t have a relationship anymore. That arm is GONE. I'm having lots of phantom limb pains. There is no loving h. There is a bloody stump. I am missing what doesn�t exist. I don�t get my whole arm back, sorry.

Is it the optimistic part or the pessimistic part, that 1% of you that has some distorted hope that there could be a reconciliation. I wonder that about myself too.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

There is a bloody stump. I am missing what doesn�t exist. I don�t get my whole arm back, sorry.

Have you considered a prosthetic?

Hi 25, the D was finalised almost 2 years after we S and about 9 months after XH filed. I was a pretty prompt responder and my L was good too. Everything was done via email. We D'd collaboratively (my suggestion.) But I am in the UK, so it's probably quite different.

XH was pretty cooperative actually. He started off 'offering' very little, but I think it helped once he got a L (once he knew I intended to work through one - it wouldn't have been his choice. His choice would have been - lets do this in a friendly way and you'll get very little.)

I had to smile though - his (London, Mayfair) L did me a big favour as she told him a contested D might cost him over �60k in legal fees and I think he was running pretty scared of that. (Really, I'd like to shake her hand for that one

)

In the end my fees came to around �4K I think. I'm happy with the outcome. I certainly didn't want to 'fund' their shiny new life to the detriment of my comfort, given all circumstances. He may not feel that happy, but he's never said as such. I have made provision for SS in my will and so some assets will ultimately pass to him, which I feel is fair.

Thinking about it, I came away with roughly double what was originally offered. And all I held out for was - we do this using the normal formula that applies in these circumstances. What we ended up with after due process was a simple, single page spreadsheet, with key assets listed and our proposed division. That was the document we agreed on. Anyway, 9 months was the timescale for the actual D process, but I think selling our marital home took a year - that went on a bit longer...

Hope this helps anyway....

Xx

Quote:

Did our WAS change and why? OR were they always this way and we did not see it, or they hid it well enough?

Why did WE not see it sooner, or address it, and thus, what can we do to avoid this event happening in our next r?

25.....IMO it was always in there and it was like lava in a volcano waiting to erupt. I think some or more obvious than others but looking back at my W all the signs where there that this would happen. I just never thought her overall unhappiness would manifest itself on me.

I also don't think you could have done anything different to stop it from happening (My friends often tell me she could have been married to Brad Pitt and she would have done the same thing). I know we can all be better people (including our spouses) but there are varying degrees of what each person needs to work on. Some are hard issues while some are soft issues and no one is a perfect person. The reality is each person handles situations differently where some spouses would communicate their issues (and want to work on the marriage) others just choose to have A's and walk away.

I have not been going at this as long as a lot of others but those are my thoughts.

Your last question about how we can avoid this in the future is a tough one because there are no guarantees. Personally before I get serious with another women I will be more perceptive to their upbringing, family values, why their previous relationships failed, are they generally happy, things like that I will vet a lot more due to the knowledge I gained from this board. Still at the end of the day their are no guarantees.

Originally Posted By: 25

some of what I'm really asking is an almost universal DB question.

Did our WAS change and why? OR were they always this way and we did not see it, or they hid it well enough?

Why did WE not see it sooner, or address it, and thus, what can we do to avoid this event happening in our next r?

Sorry for what you're going through 25. I think the answer to your question is "yes"

Our WAS do change, part of it is just normal life evolution. Part of it is the constant cycle of missed communications, minor annoyances, building resentments, etc. that just erode attachment over time and make people less tolerant.

On the other hand, its also true that they were always this way and we either didn't see it, or convinced ourselves that it wasn't as bad as it was, or it was temporary, or otherwise made excuses for it, or worse yet it was always that way and we needed it to be.

One of the best models of relationships I read said that everyone, as children, is "abused" in one way or another, meaning that you just don't have all your emotional needs met, in some ways worse than others.

This particular type of neglect or abuse is something that we learn to cope with, often convince ourselves that its what we deserve, and we become comfortable in that place of coping.

Therefore, we tend to seek partners who put us into our comfortable place, because that's what we know we can cope with and survive.

If you grow up believing you're not good enough, and you start dating someone who dotes on you and tells you that you are good enough every day, you're often just not attracted to that person, or are bored by the relationship.

If, on the other hand, you meet someone who treats you like you're not quite good enough, that's a challenge to you to prove that you are, and it's the comfortable place you're used to living in. Therefore that's where you gravitate.

In terms of your next relationship, certain patterns WILL repeat, because you're the constant, but everything is on a spectrum. Someone could be a 10 on the narcissism scale, or they could be a 3. The side effects of the 3 are going to be far less than the 10, and far more livable. That's the difference, is that the next time around you won't tolerate the extremes.

Secondly, and I think this is important, you ask why we did not address it.

"Addressing it" in a relationship can mean blowing things up to the point of giving and ultimatum and being willing to walk away. Hopefully there's a compromise there, but sometimes there isn't. In first marriages, people are often too scared to make those ultimatums because they fear the unknown of being divorced.

The second time around, you've already been divorced and you know you can survive it, so you're less likely to tolerate things that are not acceptable. You're more likely to make the ultimatum and be willing to walk. That is, in my view, why second marriages are less successful. Not because people who get married the second time around are more flawed, but instead because they are less scared of leaving a relationship that doesn't work for them. Is that a bad thing? I'm not convinced that it is.

Acc

The only blessing about your H being so horrible during the divorce process is that it will cure you of any lingering desire to reconcile. I'm actually grateful that my ex was such a jerk. It finally allowed me to let go, and I wouldn't have him back for any sum of money.

Originally Posted By: kml

The only blessing about your H being so horrible during the divorce process is that it will cure you of any lingering desire to reconcile. I'm actually grateful that my ex was such a jerk. It finally allowed me to let go, and I wouldn't have him back for any sum of money.

KML, this^^ is true. I think I said somewhere that his behavior has jettisoned my mourning process several leagues ahead.

But yeah, sometimes I miss that arm. I also think what I miss most is being in a marriage (that I thought was good). Being part of a couple and intact family.

Oh well, there are far worse things. And who knows? I may be a part of one again.

I believe wholeheartedly that I'd rather be on my own with the chance of another R or just free,

than be married to h as he is and has been for a few years. I see things differently now and it's not all about consoling myself.

It's with more clarity than I had before. Once my mom died it was more apparent to me that h was on his own path and I could take it or leave it. I really KNEW life was short when I saw that I was next in line for passing on (compared to my mom I mean)

and h was not pleasant or kind to me, the past few years. No I don''t mean he was a 24/7 jerk, but there was an undertone of criticism I NOW see more clearly.

I am now scoffing at myself. Sheesh, I need to let go of my own crap and forgive myself more.

I'm working on it!

Accuray

I will get to your post soon. Lots to think about, but I can say now that the red flags or triggers I have are that '

1) if the man has poor r's with his children. Alienation can happen but it's pretty rare and depends on the situation. I'd flee if there was not a VERY explainable reason for the guy not being close to his kids

2) the way he describes his ex. If there is a lot of character assassination I'd walk.

Even if he's accurate, it's too much drama. And if he's not accurate, then he's a blame shifter.

3) weird with money

4) needing a nurse, not a wife

5) acting OLD. A guy I know and am very comfortable with b/c we once dated and over the years kept in touch. "G" is his name. I like him. But I could never partner up with him b/c he says things like

"At our age..." And I know there's no way that sentence can end in an appealing way.

6) rigid in beliefs so that an issue is black and white (no thanks, had enough of that with H's incessant reading of extreme views and NOT showing any flexibility and being angry at people who disagreed even when done tactfully. That includes me.

I am more comfortable with gray areas in life now, than I was before. H is the opposite.

Yes I'd say he changed in that regard for sure. He also became an atheist

and I guess it showed.

So that is a start, Acc.
\
I don't know that divorce is more frequent BECAUSE we are less afraid of it, so much as we have less invested in it.

In our first marriage - if there are kids and it's long, then we fear walking away from the table and the losses we are leaving behind. It's huge and earth shattering

I also think SOME divorcees are too eager to recommit and be part of a couple and only later realize they have not done the work THEY needed to do.

So they repeat their own errors.

Thanks Acc. I value your feedback. Need to get out of and stay out of the rut. The change of season here is not great for me and I am facing the fact that I really am very affected by sunlight.

ALL of my family & childhood friends need to move west with me!

Quote:

Did our WAS change and why? OR were they always this way and we did not see it, or they hid it well enough?

Why did WE not see it sooner, or address it, and thus, what can we do to avoid this event happening in our next r?

I had a kerfuffle with Mr. Fantastic last night and when a divorced friend called me shortly after on an unrelated matter, I posed this question to her. Her ex is a train wreck if ever there was one and my friend has had a lot to overcome. Her take is this:

Yeah, he was always a mess. But he thought highly enough of his spouse that he was willing to try to hide it and live as though he was the man she thought he was, out of love for her. Until finally it was more effort than he could sustain. So she thanks him for having loved her enough to make the effort, and she thanks him for finally being honest enough to show her that he's the POS he always was.

Now, I don't know if I can subscribe to this for myself. I don't know that Mr. Fantastic ever loved me. Now that I'm with My Guy I'm just seeing too many things missing from my "relationship " with Mr. F to really call it a relationship. But maybe I'm still so angry and I'm being overly harsh. Maybe it will help you, and I hope it does. But it strikes me as a tremendously positive way to acknowledge a painful and ugly experience, so maybe someday I can find my version of that expression of gratitude.

PS, I sell life insurance for a living. There are four parties to a policy: owner, payor, insured, and beneficiary. The insured is not automatically the owner, though he often it's. That's why businesses can put key person insurance on employees. Was your H the owner of the policy? Even though you were the payor? If not, USAA erred.

Quote:

Yeah, he was always a mess. But he thought highly enough of his spouse that he was willing to try to hide it and live as though he was the man she thought he was, out of love for her. Until finally it was more effort than he could sustain. So she thanks him for having loved her enough to make the effort, and she thanks him for finally being honest enough to show her that he's the POS he always was.

This ^^^^^^^^is awesome and so true!

Originally Posted By: Maybell

That's why businesses can put key person insurance on employees.

Maybell,

You're a genius! You're the inventor of OM (or OW) life insurance.

Here's how it works: A husband finds out his wife is having an affair. He gathers all of the evidence (email, text messages, pictures and email). He then insures the OM to the gills; maybe $5 million. Then he tells the OM's wife about the affair and he gives her the evidence and the rendezvous location where they can be caught while doing naughty things. Cha-ching, instant millionaire.

There are a number of other potential scenarios as well. Regardless, OM/OW life insurance could open a new market niche for insurance.

Doodler, it won't work. LBS doesn't have an insurable interest in the OP. Work it the other way -- insure the cr@p out of the WAS, tell the OP's spouse, and see what happens.

Answer: nothing. Because the LBS will pick-me dance and try to save the marriage. But if the divorce happens the LBS will have at least the possibility of insurance proceeds.

Maybell,

The dream was so close, but now you've ruined everything.

maybell he was the owner

I'd like to get a policy on him with ME as the owner, obviously.

But per USAA I'd need his cooperation. Since he lied about who paid for it, it strikes me as meaning he justifies lying (even to his L) or he thinks no one will find out and or it won't matter.

Sure was a bad idea if he wanted to strong arm me into settling. I told my L "oops, I don't feel like it now."

Now that he's had a cardiac ablation (which he had after I got the policy) it'll cost far more or not happen at all. idiot.

We were supposed to jointly pay for the Survivor Benefits but now I want him to pay all of it for a # of years to compensate .

Thanks for the info however - if we can find each other in the RL I'd like to learn more.

(( ))

PS I also like the way of reframing your friend did. Whether h really loved me enough to do that, is probable but he also liked seeing himself as a good guy and I gave him that image b/c I sincerely loved and admired who I thought he was.

He's still among the smartest and for sure the hardest working man I've ever known.
my mistake was seeing those traits as meaning he had character long after it should have been clear to me he did not.

I do have an insurable interest b/c of the pension and spousal support.

But I'd prefer a buyout from our retirement accounts for the spousal support and leave the pension in place.

As an aside, the pension from the Army can be lowered IF H claims disability which he is

and that is not divisible as marital property.

It changes if he's rated at 50% or higher. Not to overcomplicate things but what it means is that

if he qualifies at half or more then we both get it. No problem.

Congress decided amputees (no, h is not) should not be punished but neither should wives with 35 years in.

If it's a partial disability - liker most, I could lose out of 1/4 and that is worst case scenario, so

my L wants me to get more up front to deal with that risk.

We'll see

On the DB FB page, I posted a response to the Victor Frankl quote with a sentence at included the word stimuli.

Originally Posted By: Maybell

On the DB FB page, I posted a response to the Victor Frankl quote with a sentence at included the word stimuli.

Maybell, sorry but I'm baffled by this^^. Is it a way to touch base irl?

Also, my L called and we played phone tag. Ugh. Can't be good news...and the stress sets in.

And I EAT MORE!

Nothing unhealthy there, eh? Okay, deep breaths. I was invited to a concert of a singer I know only a few songs of, (not really my genre but no biggie).

In reality I feel like hovering inside all weekend and "getting ready" for my d's to visit for a family wedding. Which is code for pretending to be too busy to GAL.

But I am intent on GAL and one of the simplest (not easiest, but not complicated) is to say yes to all invites.

So concert time tomorrow.

Cross your fingers for good (or not too crappy) news from my L. My guess is that a half a$$ offer is coming OR I've dropped the ball on something again

OR just another legal bill...

I am going to ask mt L what exactly is supposed to happen for all this money. Since Jan 31, which yielded an apparently unenforceable ruling, nothing has happened but delays. A wage garnishment that got me 2 checks before H 'retired,"

And btw here is a useless question with no "good" answer. HOW can h not wonder what our d20 is doing for college?

Remember he cut her off. He has no idea s31 did all that work that got his sister almost a full ride.

Oh yeah, h either is too preoccupied in his new life with schmoopie and HER kid,

or feels uncomfy and thus, won't reach out

AND OR sees himself as the object of pity b/c I turned the kids against him (again??)

and he is unable to pick up a phone to text or call or write a letter.

Okay, I answered my own question. Went down Cheeseless tunnel boulevard again.

((( )))

I found the page and quote, but that's all. Am I missing something?

I never once went to a concert that I regretted. ALWAYS go to live music!

Maybell in the comments.. " stimuli "

Yes, in the comments I wrote a response. That's how I can be found irl.

Hey 25, just checking in with you. I find myself seething towards your husband, a stranger on the internet! lol I am reading your wisdom carefully though, just in case this is my future as well.

Originally Posted By: kml

The only blessing about your H being so horrible during the divorce process is that it will cure you of any lingering desire to reconcile. I'm actually grateful that my ex was such a jerk. It finally allowed me to let go, and I wouldn't have him back for any sum of money.

So sorry, 25. It is hard and frustrating, I know. My MLCer is certainly coming out to play! I think we all reflect on how to balance the person in front of us with who we think they were, especially after a long M. I see MLC as being a pendulum really that releases a shadow side of our spouses, particularly if they are still in Replay. But in the short-term, and in a L process, it doesn't matter - we just have to deal with the current persona. It's extraordinary how destructive and self-centred they are.

Hugs from the UK x

Hi all

thanks for checking in on me, I appreciate it a lot.

Originally Posted By: Treasur

[quote=kml]The only blessing about your H being so horrible during the divorce process is that it will cure you of any lingering desire to reconcile. I'm actually grateful that my ex was such a jerk. It finally allowed me to let go, and I wouldn't have him back for any sum of money.

[color:#3333FF]
I think this^^ is really true. I don't think I'm merely consoling myself saying it.

I had a dream that h and I were driving somewhere (& we had reconciled I think). So I dropped him off somewhere and he was very nice getting out of the car. I think we kissed goodbye and then we waved bye.

Then when I began to drive, I got really furiously mad at him all over again. Not in a "present" way but in the dream it was just me thinking about the past.

Weird, eh? Okay I'm not proposing some new brilliant insight, okay? I mean this is not a mystery but still, I want to say what I think out loud.

I think it's my subconscious saying "hey 25, this really is over. It has to be over, No matter what." because some things cannot be forgotten or unknown, even when we want them to be.

I have changed...and I cannot be around someone for whom I periodically feel physically sick with fury, betrayal & disgust.

I wonder about us ever becoming friends or even cordial. Honestly folks, how do you do that? For my kids sake, I would want that. But how do you overlook this amount of - for lack of a better word, "treachery"?

For my kids and for me & my own health, I would like NOT to feel this anger. When I imagine my life as I want it to be, including full detachment, I imagine feeling pity for h.

Maybe pity for them is a mark of detachment ---- if it doesn't manifest as co-dependence on my end.

Psy

please learn from my experience. It matters. I attended a divorce seminar thru some organization with the word "woman" in it. I don't recall the name exactly, but it was $25 and had a L, a Financial Planner and a T speaking. Very worthwhile.

The CFP said "this is the most important financial transaction of your life. Don't avoid it. Know what you need to know."

True^^^

UPDATE - my L called (the senior partner) Says

1) I need to pay up in advance, or they can't keep me on as a client (ouch.)

I Never knew I was behind, but I've been stressed about opening all their mail, tbh. Not very adult like on my part.

2) L says that I "will get the money, the retirement funds aren't going anywhere. But your H is a 'lying cheating b1tch' who will make it a pain in the a$$ to get it."

(I have no experience bring a client. So I don't know if other attorneys engage like this.)

and 3) it's a settlement conference coming in October, not merely a 'hearing'.

The settlement conference is news to me. I'm anxious & glad, but I am surprised it was not clearer to me earlier.

I don't see an alternative to paying up, crossing my fingers and praying hard for the best outcome for me.

So sorry, 25. It is hard and frustrating, I know.

My MLCer is certainly coming out to play! I think we all reflect on how to balance the person in front of us with who we think they were, especially after a long M.[b] I see MLC as being a pendulum really that releases a shadow side of our spouses, particularly if they are still in Replay. [/b]

Treasure, I understand the need to understand. I am working on letting go of that need as it really does hinder my forward motion. And I don't believe it is possible for us to understand behavior we would not ever engage in. I practiced criminal law defense for 4 years and though I knew some patterns (client wants a stereo that his neighbor has so client steals it. I "understood" it but only in abstract terms and while knowing my client was a sociopath.)

I do not believe I will ever understand my h's choices and I don't want to keep wondering . The only way to understand it is to project my values onto him but if he shared mine, we would not be here so it's a circular and giant waste of time for me.

And It often feels like I'm still giving h my power.

I believed in the term "MLC" it 10+ years ago b/c I saw it as new conduct from h and I could not grasp his behavior any other way.
Some behaviors like not paying bills on time, were new. But -
Now that I'm here again, I have to wonder

1) if "MLC" ever applied

and 2) if it matters.

BTW, I never understood "replay" as a term. Another round of abusive behavior?

What would motivate them to stop? Their risky gamble didn't pay off (for them, i mean.) They don't want to look bad, and somehow missed the connection between their behavior and results.

But oops, they created a lot of wreckage they do not want to see. And IF they see the damage and IF they tell us, it's likely to be in a way that seeks our compassion for them, not their giving compassion to us. Like self pity about what "happened" to them, and what THEY have lost...

My x BIL pulled that on my older sister. My older sister is probably the kindest woman I have ever known, she's attractive and nurturing (a nurse of course) and utterly loyal. The x BIL was a selfish fool. And when he had his awakening, it was when my sister was remarrying. Nice timing. He gave a short but direct apology to her and said he "gets it" and that he F--- up. But notice that he did not say he was so very sorry for hurting HER and the KIDS...no it was about the great catch she was -whom HE LOST...

She was sad FOR him (!) and for their kids. But she thanked him for letting her know and then she remarried her new h later than month. Her ex also got engaged and remarried too...

Speaking just for me, I now see that it was vitally important to call my h's first episode as a MLC b/c a few things fit and b/c I wanted to preserve my m and family,

And I now see another reason ---which is b/c the thought that I had married a selfish man with charm & intelligence, who would lie to avoid any consequences, was too devastating to me.

I definitely mistook h's strong work ethic and intelligence, for character. The cruelty is a disappointment but I'm trying not to let anything surprise me again.

But in the short-term, and in a L process, it doesn't matter - we just have to deal with the current persona. It's extraordinary how destructive and self-centred they are.

Hugs from the UK x [/quote]

It sure seems extraordinary. The frightening thing is maybe its not.

I have long assumed h will eventually renew contact with the kids. I have long assumed it is just a matter of time.

But the idea that h has removed and replaced our family permanently, is not unbelievable now. Not sure where the he11 his dad and wife are as far as our kids. I get that they detest awkward social situations and are not the reaching out types. But our kids are FIL's ONLY grandkids...WTF?

Anyhow,

If recent history is predictive, then H won't reach out to the kids if he fears rejection, (which is a reasonable expectation, considering)

And those fears will just increase with time b/c the longer he goes without reaching out, the harder and less likely it'll be. Somehow on H's scorecard, which he clearly must have, and in his distorted narrative, I and or we as a family, are way behind h the hero.

In h's narrative, he is the hero and I am the villain. No way I can change that.

Don't know h anymore. Accepting I will never know. Working on not caring.

25--

I know you don't like labels, but your guy (like mine) is 100% narcissist at this point. I hope that anyone reading your thread who has concerns that their H is a narcissist takes this to heart. He will make your life a living h$ll and do what he can to stop you from getting the money. It is all about control with these people and you took it away from him by filing. Not right, not fair, but that is how it goes. Please, if you have a severely narcissistic H and you are reading this, know that you have a different path before you than a lot of folks here.

He will come back again. Yes, he fears rejection and that will keep him away, but to the narcissist who needs supply in a hurry the best source of supply is that which has proven reliable in the past. And believe me, they have relatively short memories.

I'm sorry but I am not impressed by your lawyers. I have paid about $300 to my current lawyer. I met with her in person for an hour or two and have had many phone and email conversations for which she has not charged me. No idea why, perhaps a professional courtesy. She is in the business of repping people in divorce. She knows we have relatively high assets, but she told me from day one not to file and stay married as long as possible. My prior lawyer (the one who did the waste of paper agreement for me and mislead me about a couple of areas of the law charged me about $3,000).

I'm wondering if a change up in strategy is in order for you at this point. I don't see how it could hurt.

My ex definitely had MLC (twice - when he turned 40 and then as he was approaching 50).

But it was only later that I came to realize that he was also a narcissist, and that much of what went on in our marriage was related to that. And that it's possible that there were more infidelities than I realized at the time.

Sometimes it takes a while for the rose colored glasses to come off and to see our exes as they really were. At the same time, not everything was bad - I got a lot of good years out of my marriage, maybe more than most people get, and I try to make an effort to remember that.

As for being cordial with my ex - honestly, if he only hadn't been such a jerk in relation to the kids after our divorce, I'd have been inviting him and his wife to Thanksgiving dinner by now. But his behavior since our divorce was settled, has pretty much eliminated any such possibility. I keep my interactions with him to the very very bare minimum. It's been months since I even had to have an email from him and that's how I like it.

Nothing to add, 25, except I just felt like I needed to send you a hug.

(((((((25))))))))

BTW, I took Maybell's advice to you and the results ended up nicely. If you haven't already, go back and read her post to you slowly, and follow up.

I'm about to pull up my own thread and update, although my online time right now is limited. Suffice it to say, I feel a little like Naples, FL right now. I'm in the calm eye of the storm, but there's more wind and rain ahead.

Have been reading your posts for awhile and feel compelled to chime in. From what you write, I am not impressed by your lawyer. If you have any doubt, go see another one. This is too important to have doubts. I shopped around and my layer said the problem with my husband having a bad lawyer is that he will be giving husband bad advice and that will just increase costs. Your lawyer may be the same. The fact that you are unclear on some basic things at this point and the manner your lawyer speaks to you is sending off warning bells. Maybe you were just venting but if not go see someone else.

I know the system works differently where you are from me but I would think the law would protect you more.

I am sorry to hear your situation is so difficult. You seem to be handling things so well under all that pressure.

guys

I hear you about the L's but I'm not starting over at this point. I can't. It's easy to tell others that you don't think well of their lawyers, but saying "it can't hurt to start over" is simply not true.

h took the savings, so I'm borrowing the legal fees & banking on getting the bulk or all of the nest egg.

more later

Just to be clear, my suggestion was a new strategy, not a new lawyer.

I'm open to ideas

25, you seem like a sharp cookie, I'm sure you've got it under control. Divorcing a narcissist is no picnic and he's certainly thrown every obstacle possible in your path. It must be so frustrating to have to borrow money to achieve something HE claims to have wanted.

((((((25))))))

Given that he has already dug in and is doing everything he can to screw you and will likely continue, what if you reached out to him and appealed to his "goodness" and "honor". Narcissists love to be told how great they are.

What if you said I think something is getting lost in this process with the lawyers because I am quite certain it is not your intention to leave me penniless or our D in a precarious situation with her schooling. We've been partners and had each other's backs for most of our lives so it seems very sad to me that we can't reach a civil resolution here at the end. I realize that you weren't happy with me and wanted a different kind of life and I accept that I need to make my own life going forward, but I want us to leave this marriage with dignity and I don't really feel that we are doing that right now.

This kind of speech generally works very well with my H. If I remind him what a "decent" guy he is or how we have supported each other in the past, he generally does what I want or need him to.

Perhaps your crazy H just needs to feel like he has some control back and he can choose to be a good guy.

I frankly don't see the downside of making this kind of park bench effort since he's already dug in and is screwing you about as badly as he can.

Originally Posted By: OwnIt

Given that he has already dug in and is doing everything he can to screw you and will likely continue, what if you reached out to him and appealed to his "goodness" and "honor". Narcissists love to be told how great they are.

Yes indeed. And this^^ has occurred to me, (esp since I can solve our tax problem and I'm pretty sure he's clueless and fuming about it. I'm sure it'll be my fault, somehow....)
My T is very opposed to the idea of me reaching out and when we think it all out, it does not end well. I guess she thinks it will set me back. but I'll run it by here again.

From what I've learned, the only way we can deal with narcissists is No Contact. And that works for me.

Frankly, if he keeps up the NC with our kids, there may be no reason for me to ever see him again. Sounds crazy (35 years of marriage, good grief). But the only thing worse is to subject myself to his crap again. It's incredibly upsetting.

What if you said I think something is getting lost in this process with the lawyers because I am quite certain it is not your intention to leave me penniless or our D in a precarious situation with her schooling. We've been partners and had each other's backs for most of our lives

First, h thinks me getting the minimum is 100% FAIR! He thinks that is fine. he cannot believe I should get some of his earnings. He'd rather "retire" than give any to me even temporarily. Maybe his Schmoopie is egging him on. I don't know

But I cannot lie Own. I can leave things out but I will not lie and it turns out h has not had my back for a few years now. We were in 2 different marriages.

so it seems very sad to me that we can't reach a civil resolution here at the end.

I realize that you weren't happy with me and wanted a different kind of life

I will not say this^^^b/c it is a lie. I don't think h was unhappy with ME. Sure acted like we were fine though I can see his criticisms in a new light. I cannot enable his revisions.

H never told me he was unhappy in the m, either not once.

And the kind of life he wanted, as far as I can tell, is that of a part time h/dad, who des what he wants when he wants and used me as his touchstone for his periodic family fixes and respectability,

while he cheated and lied and ruined our finances WHILE also blaming me for all of his relentless restlessness, and private festering of grievances, until his narrative became so distorted I do not recognize it.

But then, at the time, Until he did not show up for me in the hospital I did Not know WTF was happening.

I'm feeling stressed and angry at the moment. I need to process and release it and don't mean to sound mad at you. I'm going to meditate in a minute.

and I accept that I need to make my own life going forward, but I want us to leave this marriage with dignity and I don't really feel that we are doing that right now.

Own, I have behaved with dignity and have not once responded to his nasty idiocy.
I'm not posting on fb or deliberately ignoring court rulings. I have done all that was requested of me.

Maybe I could say something like "This is an ugly way to end a 35 year marriage. I have a hard time believing it's what you want. It's going to keep on costing us both a fortune & the only ones gaining wealth, are lawyers (other than me, the L who had your children).

I remember how you felt towards your father after your parents divorced. For the sake of your r's with our children, I hope you'll avoid that path. I know deep down you love them."

This kind of speech generally works very well with my H. If I remind him what a "decent" guy he is or how we have supported each other in the past, he generally does what I want or need him to.

I understand what you are saying. (I do.) That's why similar thoughts have crossed my mind. )

But his behavior is so out of the ballpark I just don't believe I can enable or fuel his insane narrative. When S31 told me his dad was "mentally ill", I asked him what specifically he meant (and of course I fell into my rescue pattern of wondering "if I 'should help h"...I'm embarrassing myself now)

S31 said "mom, just look at how he's acting. Good riddance to lunacy."

But yes, once upon a time we were an enviable team. People asked us for advice and literally complimented our m, many times over the years.
But I'm so angry at the moment and probably so fearful that I'm having a hard time kissing a$$. God knows I should be more used to it by now.

Something in me is growing more stubborn about what I'm willing to do or say to "keep the peace." I know I'm so done.

Our d20 no longer needs him for money b/c, you know, he cut her off - did I mention that his letter to her was semi scrap paper? On the back of one of the sheets there were patient notes. And he crossed some words out (including the date he "retired" which actually made me laugh a bit. Nice cover, h.

Now that we survived without his big purse string of dependence, he has no extra power. He burned that bridge with the last child who really yearned for a R with him. And what a fool he was to do that. She's a wonderful young woman. F- him.

And I think case law is in my favor. Still, I detest borrowing money. Never did it before. Yes for school or homes, we "bborrowed." But I have never had to ask a person for a loan. But I swallowed my pride and did it and so far, I have gotten support. In some ways I feel really lucky.

Perhaps your crazy H just needs to feel like he has some control back and he can choose to be a good guy.

This ^^^ is 100% true. He hates the lack of control. I mean, wow, he sure does.

I should have made a tape to play adoring comments so he could feel good about his choices without me feeling like a manipulative liar.

But isn't that what OW Schmoopie is for? Last I heard, he's finally SO happy.

I frankly don't see the downside of making this kind of park bench effort since he's already dug in and is screwing you about as badly as he can.

my boundaries and self respect -- but I am aware that those have to be balanced against pride.

Trying to find the line. Maybe my T can help. Looking back over the past several years, Own I spent so much energy bailing water out of a sinking ship, I barely could notice how my needs were not met. It was all about h. H was the priority.

And the m/family were just options for him. Thank God my eyes are open now. Better late than never.

ps

Own, keep at it with me. I'm not handily rejecting your advice but I am mightily resisting it at the minute.

I hate the anger I feel. It's not motivation to me - I wish it could be the call to action some told me about in the Divorce Care group (I highly recommend those groups, btw. Very helpful and at least in my group, we are becoming friends).

I find it sickening and I think if I know h at all, he does too. Not sure how Schmoopie alleviates that (well I can imagine) but at some point it must be tiring to be with someone who "hates" their x.

Or maybe he does his goofy Narkles the Clown act and is SO HAPPY that he avoids thinking of the unpleasantness...

I'm guessing that he does both. He holds up the act as best he can, and then blurts out weird crap or vents to someone, b/c this is not what he was planning.

He had to "retire" (hide his work) ALL because of my greed!! And laziness!!

And turning the kids against him!! So, I have to find some way to approach him OR let the L's do it.

The Senior partner sounded genuinely angry at my h. I wasn't furious at the time, just sad. So my L was not reflecting back to me what he was getting from me, it was sort of strange.

Sort of good, b/c I want them to "be on my side" and I admit a part of me likes hearing how much h's lawyer dislikes h.

But I'm struck by the indiscreet way they communicate.

Alright time for meditation and bed. Thanks for taking the time, Own.

I'm on the east coast not sure where you are. Hope we meet and have margaritas some day. We can start a group of Doctor's 1st wives/kids

((( )))

25--

I'm totally fine with you rejecting my suggestions. I offer them up only as another option. As a litigator I know that creativity is essential. I have spent years now learning everything there is to know about narcissists, and I strongly believe you are using the wrong tools for this particular battle. Nevertheless, you are a smart lady and have to weigh your odds and play the hand in a way that makes you comfortable.

But, I have a hard time picturing you as some fragile creature that would have a "set back" after making a strategic move in a lawsuit. I think you finally get what a POS your STBX is. I don't see that his behavior in an expected manner is something that will set you back. I don't see you falling loving into his arms and swimming in his beautiful blue eyes (and of course I have no idea what his eye color is).

You fighting him in an arena that he is enjoying, particularly because it is your arena, plays into his ego swell. Imagine how powerful he feels at the moment defying the law and the judge's order and having no consequence for it. Imagine how powerful he feels beating his smart wife at her own game.

The only way to defeat a narcissist is to disarm them. How do you disarm a narcissist? You appeal to their weakness.

Seems like the NC is not bothering your H one iota. I'm sure it is easier on you from an emotional level, but you indicated previously that the financial situation is the biggest thing holding you back. I don't see this changing for you any time soon and despite being a year in you are not far in the case at all from what I can gather. You still have essentially no idea what the assets are and where they are at present, whether he is working or not, etc.

What does a settlement conference do for you at this point? Eventually get to an agreement that he will also violate? Pay lots of money in attorney prep and meeting time and have no agreement and press on in the litigation to get another order that he will defy? Give him the opportunity to sit there and lord it all over you?

What is going to get you the money is him being willing to pay it. Period. What is going to bring that about? It's time to get creative and stop thinking that the lawyers are going to bring him to his knees. It won't happen.

Get the money and the D, then go NC.

I live on the opposite coast from you but make trips sometimes to a certain government office in Alexandria where they specialize in one of two areas of the law recognized in the Constitution.

If you ever make it to either of the two states above where your D is pending, then I would be happy to meet up with you.

i'm less than an our from Alexandria. My first childhood home was there.

Lets plan!

Me again. The bad penny. I apologise if you felt my post was at all flippant. It was truly meant to be constructive. In reading forward, I think OwnIt is offering sage advice. Sometimes looking from the outside offers a different perspective.

What I am gleaning from your post is the emotional battle vs the intellectual one. Maybe if you viewed the legal obstacles as strictly business and tried to strip out the emotion, the answers would come. I agree with you about not wanting to lie, but what OwnIt said regarding playing to his narcissistic side....if it gets you where you want in the end and the end result is best for you and your family then that seems a good strategy.

Again, think you can find a way to word things where you don't feel like you are compromising your values but softens him maybe enough to ease the process. It's worth a try.

I also understand changing lawyers may not be right for you but can you at least see another to get a different slant? The initial appt. is usually free. It would also put any doubts you have to rest.

Regarding NC. I get that and agree it is good for your mental health and is probably easier for husband. So, being no expert and butting into your posts, I think just go into "divorce is business-- no emotion in business". I feel kind of enpowered when I deal with it that way.

I have been reading your posts for so long and find them incredibly helpful and inspiring. You have an ability to handle everything thrown at you and working things out. Know you will continue to navigate successfully.

thank you both. My d28 arrives wednesday & d20, Friday. Marathon wedding gala begins.

My place is a wreck and my kids have not see it. It's important to me that it look more together - I can imagine you guys know why.

I told myself last night and again, this morning, that I feel overwhelmed. I'm stressed. And it's not the first time this past year, that I've felt this way.

In my 20's I was a 3rd year law student married to a veterinarian (yes, my h). We were pregnant about 5 years early, I was taking a bar review course at night, classes 3 days a week and working 2 days a week. Oh, and job hunting while pregnant.

As the months passed, I was surprised to see how much more fatigued I became. My mother had 9 kids in 12 years and had so much energy. (Later she reminded me of the naps she took with Beethoven blaring out - no wonder).

H told several people "25 is taking her finals in May, having a baby in June, taking the bar exam in July and starting her new job in August." He was so proud and yet the closer to the due date I became, the more unsettled I was. I don't think I wanted to live up to all that. I kept thinking about this baby and how OUR life was going to be.

Anyhow, I could not pull it off. I failed an exam, and ended up finishing law school a semester late, at night. I knew within 5 minutes of the exam that I had not passed but I was RELIEVED. It meant I could temporarily stay at home with the baby I had fallen in love with, but had not yet met.

I just could not express before then, that at some level my body or brain was saying "this is a bad plan, I don't have to do ALL of this at once."

H told me he was impressed that I was " so resilient". In a moment of clarity he once said "I felt a little bad that so much pressure was on you." Yeah, no kidding. And he kept at it in not so subtle ways.

So in a way he's still doing it.

But your feedback helps me realize I don't have to have everything all tied up nicely.

That this IS a lot of stress and I just have to manage to do 1-2 things per day.

Can't let anxiety interfere with my effectiveness.

It's going to be a year, next month. Speaking of being hard on myself, I told my T that I thought I'd have my life more together by now.

She's a good source of rational positive feedback. And you guys are too.

I'll raise the issue of reaching out to H, with her. I don't know that NC is easier for him, but probably.

And yes, I know it's not about him. It just seems like reaching out to him, even if I lay prone on the railroad tracks, will end up hurting me more.

Per his L -- to my L -- to me (yeah I know, least discreet lawyers I've dealt with but then, for all I know I'm one of the few who STFU about clients comments)

h "hates my guts" and so, somehow I feel as if it would mean lowering my shield. Like turning the other cheek would mean getting slapped again. Hard to see it otherwise when some of his actions have not even been to his benefit, (like cancelling the life insurance I was paying for, that cost him nothing) but just to harm me.

Like I said, I'll run it by my T and I do thank you for the input

PS I'm one of 4 L's in my family and my brother - who did divorce law for some years- spoke to my lawyer and at the time he felt reassured.

I'm not opposed to asking him again!

Hang in there. You do sound very stressed and have a lot going on. Know what it is like to have visitors and wanting everything to be just so.

Mainly, I think you are sound like you are having a crisis of confidence! Not sure why. You come off as being so intelligent and kind and you got in there and solved your daughter's college issue and God knows how many other things you have navigated yourself through.

Go back to that young girl who was in law school, pregnant, and looking for a job. She sounds fearless and awesome. Remind yourself that that is you. That is still you. Get back your fearlessness and empower yourself to put on your "business" hat in "everything divorce". That doesn't mean laying down and rolling over to husband. That means getting what you want and if you have to be nice and stroke his ego, who cares. You know what the end game is. You don't have to be deceitful you just have to play the game and beat him at it. The judges have seen it all and they will see through his games. You can play the game and not lose your integrity.

Sorry to rant. Your H makes me mad and I know you are strong and deserve so much more than you are getting in this situation. You ARE smart. Trust yourself.

I so relate to that sense of being overwhelmed but feeling the need to be the superhuman one that makes everything happen. All through my life are the voices constantly saying "I don't know how you do it all." I shouldn't have tried.

Yes, take one thing at a time. It really is the only way to eat an elephant. This goes back to controlling only the things you can control.

Do you really believe your H hates you? Mine says that to me and I assume others. Then he sobs in my presence worried about whether I'll be safe. It's crap and you know it.

So what if he laughs in your face. That is a reflection of him and who he is. Don't you want to be the rational one who can make unemotional decisions for the betterment of the situation?

Breaking NC gives some momentary pain. I'm not going to lie. I always feel worse afterward. But sometimes there is business that needs to happen.

Get ready for your kids and give it some thought. Sometimes when the game isn't working you need to switch up the offense.

You don't have to do it all at once, which is a relief since you CAN'T do it all at once.

But if you clear up your place you'll feel more accomplished and have more energy to take on the harder tasks.

I have no input about contacting your H directly. I don't know if there's anything you can do to change his attitude. You don't know who's feeding the "hates your guts" attitude or why he claims to feel that way. And it's irrelevant to the BUSINESS PROCESS of divorce anyway.

I do know that my ex felt like I "fought so bitterly" for the settlement I ultimately got as a way of punishing him for how he left the marriage. That is not true at all. I need every penny of support I get from him, and then some. The kids' lifestyle and schools changed even with the generous agreement he signed, as much as I tried to preserve it. He's angry with me for wanting him to continue to provide for us even if it meant he got to shag whoever he pleases. That's his problem. My trying to "park bench" a solution would have provided him an opportunity to manipulate me, since I'm not so good at manipulating him. You're too angry to fake an appeal to his better self. It may be better to try to relax into the process and get some indication from your L of what teeth she intends to sink into the proposal that will truly bind him to act.

I have confidence in you, 25. You have worth and you are going to be OK. The thing you're most afraid of is the unknown at this point. Once things are known, you'll know how to proceed. Try to remember that.

(((((25)))))

I have a different perspective to share here that may or may not be helpful but "what the heck".

I'm the higher wage earner and am the one reluctant to "reward" my STBX for what she did. I also have a lot of anger that I'm trying to process and revenge, while petty is so very tempting. I'm also pretty sure that she has hidden some assets. Is she a narcissist? Well - many of the check-boxes get filled.

In the last settlement meeting it was pretty obvious that she was still completely unprepared and that she was furiously angry. The things that I (mind reading!) think she was angry about were that:
- She was going to have to reveal "her" holdings - she always hated anybody including me being involved in "her" stuff.
- She was going to have to do actual work to get the settlement
- That I wasn't just rolling over
- That I'm not playing along with her narrative (ahem - blatant and obvious lies) about her guy and her infidelity and her future plans
- That I'm angry and bitter about what she did to me and our family

Now - maybe "I'm" a narcissist myself. Don't know but she would probably say I was.

Where I'm getting to though is a place where rather than looking at this in anger and punish her or trying to get the "best deal", I'm starting to look at it from the point of view of asking how much it will cost me to get this woman out of my life.

In your case 25 - you want to do things in a way that is "fair" to you. Which means digging in to his assets, mucking around in the swamp of his secrets etc. And that's good and reasonable from most people's point of view. As a lawyer you probably feel that following the proscribed procedures and doing things "right" is the best way to do them.

What if instead though you looked at it as "what am I willing to take" and maybe have your lawyer present a deal that doesn't involve discovery or getting every last cent you "deserve". You could present it as being simple and clean and letting him "have the retirement he deserves" - feel free to use that line

Just my 2 cents as a guy who is going to be reluctantly hosed over.

Maybell, I think I sent you a message through messenger on FB, otherwise someone else with what I believe your name is got my message.

The opposite of love is not anger, it's indifference.

Originally Posted By: AndrewP

I have a different perspective to share here that may or may not be helpful but "what the heck".

I'm the higher wage earner and am the one reluctant to "reward" my STBX for what she did. I also have a lot of anger that I'm trying to process and revenge, while petty is so very tempting. I'm also pretty sure that she has hidden some assets. Is she a narcissist? Well - many of the check-boxes get filled.

My h is the higher income earner b/c he took up a 2nd career, during which I financed and raised our 3 kids AND worked full time, which I continuted to do for the first 20 years. I only stayed at home with the 3rd child, h's agreement and with his unrelenting hours. IF I had continued working full time there would literally be times my kids would have been alone, or we could hire a nanny and keep moving around b/c that's so easy o kids...

OH And at the expense of my professional career. I literally turned down a partnership to move, again, for h, to a state in which I was not licensed.

His resume is pristine, thanks to me. Mine has a 19 year gap with 1 year excepted, and my career gaps are 100% due to family demands.

Not that I feel defensive or anything.

I shall now help you understand what I think the narcissist believes...

In the last settlement meeting it was pretty obvious that she was still completely unprepared and that she was furiously angry. The things that I (mind reading!) think she was angry about were that:
- She was going to have to reveal "her" holdings - she always hated anybody including me being involved in "her" stuff.

Yes this^^^ MUST apply to h, since he took all the JOINT savings and yet has "no money" now. (But HE worked for it! It's all his, if you think about it)...

- She was going to have to do actual work to get the settlement

tsk tsk, so unpleasant. Why can't you just let her be HAPPY?? You ruin everything

- That I wasn't just rolling over

you're passive aggressive!

- That I'm not playing along with her narrative (ahem - blatant and obvious lies) about her guy and her infidelity and her future plans

again you are ruining her happiness. You are selfish.

- That I'm angry and bitter about what she did to me and our family

No, you're the only one sad. Everyone else is fine. Kids are resilient. They'll be happy FOR HER and that will make them happy.

Everyone is happy except you. And that's b/c you are a bitter angry man...

Now - maybe "I'm" a narcissist myself. Don't know but she would probably say I was.

obvious...

Where I'm getting to though is a place where rather than looking at this in anger and punish her or trying to get the "best deal", I'm starting to look at it from the point of view of asking how much it will cost me to get this woman out of my life.

I hear you. I am not trying to punish h. H thinks anyone who is not happy around him or who voices a request of him that perhaps was expected of him so that it mildly suggests he's deficient in some small way, will be accused of being "vicious and vindictive"...including our kids.

In your case 25 - you want to do things in a way that is "fair" to you. Which means digging in to his assets, mucking around in the swamp of his secrets etc.

"Fair"? It is impossible for me to get what is "fair".
H will inherit millions when his sickly father passes away. I know that's not martial property, but it means his grip on the finances of MUTUAL assets is irrationally greedy and let's face it, I've been steamrolled and taken aback by the level of deceit h has shown. And in my most vulnerable moment.

And his willingness to fight dirty.

He made the swamp. They are not "his" assets. But if your point is that it's a really big hassle to keep at this, yes it sure is. More than I would have imagined.

My advice to others is not to stay in a failed marriage (possibly the marriage you didn't know was failing) but to prepare yourself and enter this with your eyes wide open.

Don't play dirty, but be ready for them to do so.

And that's good and reasonable from most people's point of view. As a lawyer you probably feel that following the proscribed procedures and doing things "right" is the best way to do them.

I was willing to take less than the law allowed. H's offer SEEMS to be "the minimum" I could get with a stamp. (Federally mandated share of pensions, below which I'd have to sign a waiver.)

Which is not super appealing

What if instead though you looked at it as "what am I willing to take" and maybe have your lawyer present a deal that doesn't involve discovery or getting every last cent you "deserve".

Andrew, what do you think I've been seeking? Good grief. Can you see my timeline? My marital length, etc?

The only wrinkle is that my L seems to be a pushover. It's Like I'm playing poker with my own L. But your point is taken and I have felt that way the entire time I've been posting on this round 2.
I would take less than I would have said just 6 months ago. So that's either progress or caving in

You could present it as being simple and clean and letting him "have the retirement he deserves" - feel free to use that line

That's valid Andrew. I get it.

(Yeah that "retirement".... which is sometimes the same as the partnership he's buying into, or the fellowship he wants to do, again, (age 61) or traveling the world OR helping veterans - but he left his job AT the Veteran's hospital

Whatever..

Just my 2 cents as a guy who is going to be reluctantly hosed over.

Andrew,

I don't know your situation - I only know If this were about fairness, I would not be here. We could have parted like adults and how our kids deserve, or communicated honestly & worked things out, etc.

I more than earned every single cent I get.

H gets to earn what an anesthesiologist earns b/c that's what I enabled him to become while our first child was 8 weeks old. Yeah, 8 WEEKS old and I was in law school and this was the SECOND career of h's...

if I were not 57 and starting over in a state I'm not licensed in, b/c my family is here and there was a medical setback (from which my h THE DOCTOR was AWOL), and there's a federal hiring freeze

and IF h had not behaved so miserably and dishonestly, all of your suggestions would be a lot easier.

H has taken a sad situation, the end of a long marriage that was once very loving, and turned it into such an ugly sickening ordeal, I'll never see him in the same light.

But that's okay. He's not my problem anymore. Your post only mildly annoyed me. Then I decided to take it on as a project.

Then i got to vent, so thanks!

Hope you get that.

Weirdly

h just called my brother (the former Div L).

I'll find out more tonight.

Trying to prepare for worst case scenario.

ugh

Seriously? H calls your brother and all you know is you'll find out more tonight?

Please post as soon as you find out.

Likely just trying to get your brother to convince you to leave everything to H and let him have his zipless divorce. Or just telling your brother how happy he is and how his is all your fault.

Don't take any of it personally, just look at it as strategic information which may help you.

(Btw - I kinda forgot H was an anesthesiologist. You know they're notorious for developing drug addictions, don't you? Any suspicions?)

Originally Posted By: kml

Seriously? H calls your brother and all you know is you'll find out more tonight?

I KNOW! Brother is in trial. But my brother - my favorite one, I might add- left me a CASUAL message Sunday to say "25, give me a call when you can"). I figured hey I'm too stressed so I'll return the call in a few.

But then bro leaves me a message today "oh, btw, H called. So give me a call when..."

WHAT???

ANYHOW, so I call brother. Bro starts with how h called out of the blue, talked for 30 minutes. Bro told H upfront he's "not authorized" to speak for me and that he did not reveal anything from my position, to h. Just listened.

Bro said H was "nice" on the phone and said that h wants to "do an end around L's and work something out." Also, H seems to concede (at least in theory) that he is "could work something about spousal support" for a certain number of years.

"Wonders if there is a number".

ALSO says "Kids aren't talking to him" and "that hurts". Also told bro that He "gave d20 'veteran's benefits for college...."

OKay wow... so first I get to whine, okay?

3 Bones to pick (then I can SIGH in cautious relief).

1 - "Doing an end round the L's" has both appeal and alarm. Maybe h's L fired him. OR got through to him AND OR h fears the discovery process b/c of hidden assets.

2) "Kids aren't speaking" to him...really? WHY??? What happened?

Pick up the phone, h. They won't hang up.

3) AND finally - the veteran's benefits H IS "GIVING" D20 (like it's out of h's pocket or cost him a thing) but oops, a "glitch" occurred & it wasn't done correctly so, guess what?

D20 - (the strong but emotionally fragile recently suicidal child) got a bill from the US Government demanding repayment! Gosh, that was a fun certified letter to open. Enjoy your $h1t sandwich, kiddo!

AND -- hard to know which part of it is my fav, the aggressive bills to a young college student

OR the fact that it's for books & expenses so even if she got to keep it, it's like 1/10 of the costs of the school.

whines over...now

SIGHS of cautious relief....

that h would even SAY the words "spousal support" and Not say "would rather be a pauper/and/ hates my guts'.

Own, if you are out there, or anyone with this type of experience---

bro was surprised when I mentioned the "hates guts" comment. (No, I don't think h does actually, but when I heard it, I figured "yeah, h believes it").

Bro said "well just that's the L's talking..."

WTF?

Bro also said his opinion of my L (the main one on my case, not the senior partner)

was that she was "a competent, standard Div L, wants the PROCESS to work itself out."

SIDENOTE legal - for those in the military

H offered to agree to pay me extra or promise to, if he gets disability - b/c that would lower my income.

But the recent Supreme court case says that cannot happen so I am at risk. Meaning that h's offer is unenforceable.

hard to believe h does not know this. But that's still something I'd have to navigate around anyhow.

Don't know where Schmoopie OW is, or if (But I sure hope she hates gluten).

Anyhow, I think I at least have a reason to think maybe h is not totally on the ledge??

Thoughts?

Please post as soon as you find out.

Likely just trying to get your brother to convince you to leave everything to H and let him have his zipless divorce. Or just telling your brother how happy he is and how his is all your fault.

Don't take any of it personally, just look at it as strategic information which may help you.

(Btw - I kinda forgot H was an anesthesiologist. You know they're notorious for developing drug addictions, don't you? Any suspicions?)

The one thing I can say about h and drugs, at least historically, is that he's a tee totaler.

Has a very healthy respect/fear/neurosis of them.

Had surgery twice and ALWAYS takes the least amount of pain meds possible (fool!)
Barely drinks.

both his parents were functioning alcoholics who kind of terrorized h early on. H was older of 2 boys.

When his parents were separated and prepping for divorce, his dad was overseas. Then h's mom "got weird" at home with h's younger brother in fear. This was while h was in freshman year of college 5 hours away.

H came home to see that his mom needed hospitalization for psychiatric problems, and while he was figuring out how or if to do this, h's mother tried to kill h as he was the "anti Christ".

H gets her committed and arranges care for his high school brother by personally going to the school and getting his brother some help. H manages to commute weekends to college and back, and gets a 4.0

When h's mom gets released 6 weeks later, she's extremely remorseful. (Rest in Peace mil)

And No one seems to hold it against her but I'm sure it was freaking traumatic. And I know h was resistant to ever later admitting when she was having another episode. I hate to say this but I spotted those things coming first and would tell h, "h, your mom is starting to need to adjust OR TAKE her meds again..."

and I swear, as we aged, it was as if h forgot those periodic weirdnesses and later on, I got to be the anti-Christ. Wow, fun times...

I'm not going into h's FOO problems for several reasons. Plus I have some of my own.

I guess I think if h were ever going to get into drugs I'd think it would have happened by now.

WHO KNOWS?

Please reaffirm for me that it's not my problem, now?

OMG

I find myself feeling sorry for h b/c he's "hurt" by the kids not talking to him/

Actually the past 10-15 years were about me smoothing over their r's. Jesus, I'm a sucker.

Or am I being compassionate? WAIT this is the same man who posted on FB about the love of his life and taking Schmoopie to Our vacation places and replacing me before we were sep

okay, Okay, my memory came back...phew, for a minute there I was spinning

My H was a teetotaler who never, ever, ever drank and wouldn't dare take drugs. You know where that has gone.

25, can you follow the Maybell FB thread to find her. Leah did and I got her name from Leah and now I'm hooked up with her. Would be great to chat on the phone. So much here to consider.

I think he called your brother either because he knows he's been ridiculous or the lawyer has fired him because he doesn't want to be on the wrong side of a contempt charge or H isn't paying the bill, or they asked for a big retainer for what's coming up. In other words, BECAUSE DOING SO IS GOOD FOR H RIGHT NOW!!!

Get brother out of it, you are a big girl. Have your own conversation with H. Keep it to the wrapping up of the business. Tell him he is on his own with the kids. You didn't break it and you can't fix it. As an outsider to the situation, try picking up the phone and see where that gets you to start.

It is very easy to calculate half of everything because that is what you are entitled to. Simple, clear, stupid.

He says that he has retired, great, stipulate that for the next (I don't know 10 years) he provides you his tax returns (and a signed transcript form so you can confirm) and if he has worked in that year, you get HALF.

Of course in the first call I would duct tape my mouth and listen to what he has to say and then say you need to think it over (discuss with your attorney) and you will get back to him.

I for one am THRILLED with this development. Again, you will only get paid if he wants to pay you. That simple.

This guy is bad to the bone. Keep that in mind. Every time you want to take him back tell yourself what you would say to me if I said the same thing.

Mine just forwarded me a fraud alert from our credit card. company Nothing else. Just that. First I've heard from him in three weeks. I texted back his standard "??" (I don't even know whether they were his charges). No response of course. I hate him today. These are the days I prefer.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

But that's okay. He's not my problem anymore. Your post only mildly annoyed me. Then I decided to take it on as a project.

Then i got to vent, so thanks!

Hope you get that

Absolutely. Glad I was able to "help"

Quote:

I think he called your brother either because he knows he's been ridiculous or the lawyer has fired him because he doesn't want to be on the wrong side of a contempt charge or H isn't paying the bill, or they asked for a big retainer for what's coming up. In other words, BECAUSE DOING SO IS GOOD FOR H RIGHT NOW!!!

Yeah, pretty likely that his lawyer, who is probably fed up with him, gave him a preview of how this settlement hearing is likely to go, and H is trying to see if he can negotiate a better deal with you directly.

I wouldn't get into a big discussion with him, but your brother could tell him that he's free to send a settlement offer to you for your consideration. Then you can take it to your attorney to discuss. I'd get all negotiations in writing, I wouldn't talk to him directly. Don't give him the opportunity to try to manipulate you.

Originally Posted By: AndrewP

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

But that's okay. He's not my problem anymore. Your post only mildly annoyed me. Then I decided to take it on as a project.

Then i got to vent, so thanks!

Hope you get that

Absolutely. Glad I was able to "help"

I hope you can NOW see all of your wife's views as --- well, her views...

I put it thru the semi Universal BS translator...

Own, yes it's not a bad development that he reached out to my brother.

If I get a script for an anti anxiety med I might be able to get thru a chat with h

but mind you, there was NO mention of the arrearages, no mention of the joint funds he took and the Army backpay, which he also kept....oh yeah, that

As for drugs, sure anything is possible, but that group (and groups like them) are big drug testers. H has been tested at least monthly for decades and they don't fool around.

the partners would be liable if someone fell thru the cracks.

I appreciate your faith that I could stay calm but we would really have to stick to the dollars and THAT is his weakness.

he always thinks he does not have enough and people are taking HIS money, etc.

But maybe I can call my L and say "let's a number. Here is mine and what it is based on."

PS

any idea what to say if h says his hurry is 1) the money!! - too bad you took MY half

and or 2) is remarrying Schmoopie.

On #2 I think I'd say "of course you are" and move on...

"remarrying Schmoopie"

meaning, he wants to marry his OW.

Because really he does have to. Otherwise he blew up a family and long marriage just for the tundra?

25, you are wonderful, strong, and resilient. You'll get thru this. Take it one step at a time.

If you aren't happy with your lawyer, if she's not aggressive enough for you, change. Talk to the partner. You need someone you see eye to eye with.

Talking to h does no harm. Don't agree to anything, and mostly listen. But remember, he's full of $hit.

25,

I say this with love.

Let the process play out. You can't control this.

I think you are like me, in that you spent so many years covering for him that you've gotten used to the idea that you can control your environment. It's hard to acknowledge that that was a mirage. (At least to some extent).

I like the idea of your being able to *text or email* that you received the message through your brother and that Dr. Alaska is free to send you a settlement offer which you will take seriously. Take it straight to your lawyer since that is, after all, what you're paying her for. Tell her what you think of it and carry on.

Don't worry about Dr. Alaska's motives. You don't have enough information to use them against him and they will only keep you spinning.

I would give you a hug if I could. You seem like you could use one.

I want to repeat to you that YOU WILL BE OK REGARDLESS OF THE OUTCOME HERE. I feel like you are in the trees, which is appropriate for the moment, but it is calming to remember the forest. And the mountains beyond it. And the ocean beyond that.

Do not let Dr. Alaska steal any more of your peace of mind. For all anyone can tell, he just made that phone call to unsettle you and give you hope before the settlement conference. We can not mind read one way or the other till we know how serious his actual offer is.

PS don't you think he HAD to play the self-pity card to get your brother to listen to him? I mean, rage would have gotten him no where. And if he is marrying Schmoopie? That's a kick in the teeth and no mistake. But it tells you very clearly who he is and that gives you clarity, even with the pain.

If there's anything I can do to help I will. But I know for sure that you will be OK.

Originally Posted By: Jim1234

25, you are wonderful, strong, and resilient. You'll get thru this. Take it one step at a time.

If you aren't happy with your lawyer, if she's not aggressive enough for you, change. Talk to the partner. You need someone you see eye to eye with.

Talking to h does no harm. Don't agree to anything, and mostly listen. But remember, he's full of $hit.

Jim, thanks for stopping by. Changing lawyers now for me is too pricey at this point. I'm nearing the finish line, or going to trial, and starting all over with a new L And going to trial could cost upwards of $100K. The partner is not absent from the case, just advisory but willing to take over completely for a higher hourly rate.

Since he and my primary L work together I don't feel the need to switch to him officially. And btw, in court I've prevailed twice. It's enforcing it that troubles me and in the L's defense, h plays dirty.

My plan is to ask my CFP friend to come up with present value of a lump sum versus 5 years of alimony

(for a 35 year m he should applaud me)

and giving my L that number. Also, b/c of some overly complicated (for this site ) issues with military pensions and possible disability of h (for tinnitus and sleep apnea, not exactly an amputation & don't get me started on that )

I could lose some money down the road, forever. THAT piece is for my L to work out or for me to risk - and factor in.

There are arrearages and marital assets h "forgot" to give me, insurance policies he cancelled in violation of the rulings, etc. He may end up balking and storming out.

Thing is, I don't trust myself at the moment. I have not known about OW for very long, or the depth of the money issues until about a month ago. And cutting off our d20 for college and not speaking to the kids -- Jesus,

but it's all water under the bridge.

Still, realistically, it would be a real challenge for me not to say anything about that when h invariably plays the victim

It would be hard for me not to blurt out a flurry of spew.

Own, I know what you mean about just calling h, but my brother is smart and realistic and he's no friend of h's and it might help us...I'm not ready to dump MY L's.

Maybe h doesn't feel like hiring another one for HIM. He had one in Alaska (which cost a h $5k for them to say "we are not licensed where 25 filed, so...see ya, Oh, and pay up!")

Oh, and h's call to my brother did not mention or make me think he means a recon. It was about money and not forking it over to L's.

If I interpret it correctly, h's feeling sorry for HIMSELF due to the losses HE is experiencing, not for the sorrow for damage he inflicted.

Sigh...I'm suddenly exhausted. Weird.

Originally Posted By: Maybell

25,

I say this with love.

Let the process play out. You can't control this.

Good point.

I think you are like me, in that you spent so many years covering for him that you've gotten used to the idea that you can control your environment. It's hard to acknowledge that that was a mirage. (At least to some extent).

I like the idea of your being able to *text or email* that you received the message through your brother and that Dr. Alaska is free to send you a settlement offer which you will take seriously. Take it straight to your lawyer since that is, after all, what you're paying her for. Tell her what you think of it and carry on.

In negotiations, I want the other side to say the number first. And I know With h, he will lowball me AND think it's "fair". If it's insulting to me (and it will be)...

oh for God's sake, I'm looking at ^^^ this - my own words -and just overly complicating it.

Don't worry about Dr. Alaska's motives. You don't have enough information to use them against him and they will only keep you spinning.

Motives? He wants to save money. THAT part is not complicated to me. As to whether he wants to marry Schmoopie or just be able to work openly or go to the moon, can't go there.

I would give you a hug if I could. You seem like you could use one.

((( )))

Yeah, it's true. My older sister came over tonight for a bit. She is a great woman, was a great daughter to both my parents, and was a great wife & great sister. Man I miss my mom. Her wild gesticulations to compensate for English being her 2nd language. She was French and had some great idioms, some of which may have just been hers...

Oh, you are right about the self pity and though H will or already is missing the kids - I think he feels HIS loss. That is not to say he wants a recon

and frankly, at some deep level ( if he has a deep level that he's in touch with)

IF he wanted a recon b/c hey, this D is super UN fun and what happened to the "temporary sep" and the "rebooting the M"??

but he cannot face himself or the wreckage he created. Maybe a few hours of tears -he has moments of clarity. But then he'd revert. It's just too much for him to cope with (geez, if it were me, it would be too much!)

But h is not me.

And in truth, I could not feel the same for him. I don't. I can cast out the anger and the hurt, for a few minutes at least. And look at it objectively.

He did not have my back when I needed him, which just was a gut punch. I read that A's are the worst betrayals possible and I get what they are saying. But for ME, he was AWOL when I was sick and truly needed him, the DOCTOR.

So No matter what he does we are done as a couple, (okay, okay I'm a literalist. IF H had a brain tumor, I'd at least be very civil & make sure he got good care. He's my kid's dad). But I cannot count on him. Boom, mic drop.

I'm not destined to be m to him again. And that doesn't make me as sad anymore. Lately I feel - a sense of relief, as I see the recent marital past as something I should not have endured. I am working to forgive myself for that. And it is work. I feel stupid. I heard that h told my BIl that "this was coming for a long time." REALLY? Because i did not know. Guess he forgot to tell ME. And It is another slap - as if I was so stupid I did not see the obvious. More marital revisions.

It was my only m and it was a long one. The sunk cost theory and diminishing returns are valid realizations. Gosh I wish I'd been more in touch with MY feelings.

I could not envision losing my intact family. My T said Bailing water as fast as I could on a sinking ship. But that is gone now. So I don't have to do the heavy lifting anymore.

I want to repeat to you that YOU WILL BE OK REGARDLESS OF THE OUTCOME HERE. I feel like you are in the trees, which is appropriate for the moment, but it is calming to remember the forest. And the mountains beyond it. And the ocean beyond that.
'

Maybell, in my head, I know this^^^ . And probably 5/7 days I act like it. I reflect and journal and then go about my day. And it helps to know that in the future I will be fine. It helps me TODAY in the present, to know that.

I also think that where the head goes, the heart will follow. But my heart is not following yet. Not the desire for a recon, but the desire for resolution and peace.

I wonder why the past few days have been like PTSD or something. I was waking up with my heart racing and walking my dog too, and have felt physically weird and thought

"Oh dang, is this another seizure? Oh no, I'll be stupid again for weeks!"

But I think it was me freaking out just walking my dog - like a panic attack. Never had one before. I got through it with cognitive work (meditating with an app on my phone, deep breaths) This is rare for me.

Oh, and THEN I got the L call to pay up or say bye, and oh btw, we are having a conference in a few weeks...

And that hearing and the year anniversary (like I should be farther along by now. My my new life should be ALL fine by now...)

and the funding issue (I have never borrowed money before) and my d's coming and my wanting my condo to look all together it all just cumulatively got to me.

I pour everything out here. I do not edit my feelings. I do not rehearse how they sound. I want to move thru this as fast as possible WHILE also trying to be gentle with myself.

Balancing act...like so much of this.

I gotta say, I almost admire people who can ask straight face - for money from friends. OMG it kills me. I was the lender, not the borrower!!

BTW, a niece of mine is marrying this Saturday. I'm not worried about how it feels to see a wedding (though I love the idea of me making a drunken bitter "toast" at the reception, just to make my niece nervous. "Hey, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT I'VE BEEN THROUGH!! YEAH, GOOD LUCK little girl!") but I have to pull it together and act as if. And I will. It'll be very fun.

I just have to focus on this FAMILY time that I so love. And stop stressing about it.
REFRAME this as a totally good thing not a stressor.

Do not let Dr. Alaska steal any more of your peace of mind. For all anyone can tell, he just made that phone call to unsettle you and give you hope before the settlement conference. We can not mind read one way or the other till we know how serious his actual offer is.

Of all the scenarios I don't think it's that^. There was no bluster or threats thru my brother whereas the aggressive posturing is all I have heard of, so far. Interesting change.

(Sidenote, I can imagine a scenario in which my L might want me to know "hey, your h is Not interested in settling, he feels it's unfair, does not seem to want to settle"

THAT ^^^ is relevant without being really hurtful.

But otherwise h's L has passed on way too many personally hurtful comments including that HE hates my h. What?

it's just way too much info for me. And I suspect the L's have passed on the comments I have made which were made in confidence (and in pain).

OH FREE ADVICE - I have learned something I should have known. Don't use your L as a T and don't use your T as a L. I made the mistake of babbling to my L about WHY WHY and blah blah blah b/c I did not have a T here for the first few months. Huge bills and not great T advice anyhow.

PS don't you think he HAD to play the self-pity card to get your brother to listen to him? I mean, rage would have gotten him no where. And if he is marrying Schmoopie? That's a kick in the teeth and no mistake. But it tells you very clearly who he is and that gives you clarity, even with the pain.

Maybell, YES.

Now I'm going to journal a bit and hope you can bear with me. Your comment triggered a major venting -- hold on!

Self pity -the past 5 years it's been a tendency h has if he's not in a grandiose mode or on the fury channel. He's a victim, a hero or infuriated.

As far as I know, H did not mention Schmoopie to my bro. He'd be a true moron to do so.

BUT heck yeah, h is a victim. OH wow, I just recalled that when h volunteered for a deployment (which he was very vague about. Let me think his whole unit was going.)

But my kids saw thru it. They Said it's "just another distracting adventure away from family" and I shook my head. I'm a veteran and did not see it that way -then.

But h was furious our kids did not write to him. I could not force them to though I asked probably 5 times. They resisted mightily and in anger. "Why should we? He's left again.."

They were still hurt about his other YEARS away from them. They spoke to him by phone, but did not write. I did.

btw, neither h nor the Army did make it simple to send him things. I recall now spending $65 to send h a care package. WTF?

No way is that normal, but h did not lift a finger for it to be convenient. Didn't say "oh use this free APO, etc. Very typical.

He called us from there on a wacky free phone and always between 2 and 5 am my time.

I always answered CHEERFULLy b/c hey, he's in combat and I'm a veteran and I get it. No matter what, you STFU and support. Like guys need to do for their w's in pregnancy.

BUT H complained to everyone including my family in a giant email that his d's did not write to him! You'd think he'd be embarrassed to admit that, b/c it's[b] obviously a reflection on HIS r's with them![/b] he's the parent, remember?

He should wonder why HIS r's with them were so poor. But nope! They were bad d's and he saw himself as a victim. SMH. My family was unimpressed but maybe h's dad cared...

OMG now I recall that S31 wrote a long detailed letter to h back then, explaining that in the kids eyes, h had abandoned them before. H wrote back the oddest non sequitur letter to s31.

S31 kept a copy and asked me to read it a few months ago. Objectively, it was weird.

H's first line thanked S31 for a "thoughtful reply" Then transitioned (??) and spoke of h's working out a lot, and his weird desert haircut, and flying wounded soldiers in a medevac. A few comments about the culture. It was a whole page or two with nothing emotionally disclosing or insightful. Not a single sentence other than thanking for the thoughtful reply. Good grief.

H simply lacks self awareness to a pathological degree. My family knew the deal. It's like H had begun to believe his own narrative. Geez...God only knows what he told his dad/wife. Oh well, NO control over that and yep, letting go of it.

Again,
As to why h called OR called that bro, who knows? God knows it's Way easier than chancing a chat with me.

Bro did not pick up on any anger, as far as I know. ( I asked.)
bro said h was "nice, and polite on the phone." I asked bro about h cutting off d20 from college and bro said he did not share info with h, but h did mention the kids not speaking to him, and h is deeply hurt by that".

Maybell you're right, h would have to play victim - any more character assassination of me would be foolish.
The adult part of me says bro did what needed to be done.

In a few minutes I'm going to meditate and there are some great ones on "Insight Timer" and "Calm" about letting go of the need to know our future and the need to let go of the past, being in the present.

If there's anything I can do to help I will. But I know for sure that you will be OK.

Thank you. I'm on fb irl but will look again at the cite you mentioned.

Maybell, thank you.

Originally Posted By: OwnIt

This guy is bad to the bone. Keep that in mind. Every time you want to take him back tell yourself what you would say to me if I said the same thing.

Not taking him back Own. Someday it might be nice to be able to be in the same room b/c I think my son will marry the woman he's dating. I don't want wedding drama for him.

And d20 will graduate from college (remember h? forgot) and my guess is that as hurt/angry as d20 is, she is probably going to want him at her graduation. I think she yearns for him.

So I will probably have to see h again. My goal is not to lose my $h1t. (& look great!)

If I say otherwise, feel free to smack me. I literally cannot imagine it happening now.

Oh, I had a dream about it, sort of. I was driving h and we were together so I assume we were recon. In the dream we seem to be getting along well and h is saying something soothing. So in the dream I drop h off and we kiss goodbye and I'm driving again.

I'm alone in the car, and suddenly I get really upset and mad and sad about our m, all b/c something triggers it in me. In my dream, it was a past event triggering such an emotional state in me It was like a forehead slapping moment.

I felt intense pain and resignation too. My wording was vague in the dream but amounted to "Oh YEAHHHHH, h did X & Y and Z& then he lied about it all and ...we are not a good couple. Too far gone."

And in my dream, I realized there is no turning back. And in reality, that is also true.

I'm not trying to be a downer for folks here. But this is round 2 for me, and my first round was 2 years long and then had a decade long recon.

Today I'm worn out.

25--

Something to think about. Obviously you have to do what makes you comfortable. When involved in negotiations, I always encourage my clients to have discussions with the other side. You often can learn more by listening in a settlement meeting than you can in all of discovery. My guess is that you would learn things that you would like to know or would hear things that would help with your closure.

Also, your H will doubtless say things that have meaning to you and that your brother won't quite understand in the same way. A suggestion, set up a three-way call. Arrange in advance with your bro that he will do the talking. Both of you have access to computers during the call so you can communicate and ask him to ask your H any questions you might have, and then, just sit back and listen.

I would love it if you could get him to walk through the different assets and have him verbally tell you what he thinks should happen to each and what his rationale is. Without you chiming in at all. The longer he talks, the looser his lips will get. The more you sanitize this through the lawyers (like asking him to send you a lawyer-generated draft out of the gate), the less you learn and the more you are just repeating the same process. There is time for that later. Give him just enough rope to hang himself.

I would just let him talk. And yes, have him give you his proposal. He knows where the proverbial bodies are buried and he is the one that has come forward with an agenda.

I also think by you sitting it out that you send him a message other than a confident lawyer/wife who will stand up for herself.

Just consider it.

I'm not saying to commit to anything without running it by your lawyer, but before anyone puts pen to paper just listen to the guy.

Originally Posted By: OwnIt

25--

Something to think about. Obviously you have to do what makes you comfortable. When involved in negotiations, I always encourage my clients to have discussions with the other side. You often can learn more by listening in a settlement meeting than you can in all of discovery.

Just for the record, I have negotiated very large settlements for medical malpractice claims. I feel comfortable in negotiations . Obviously this is not typical as I'm personally involved in all disclosures - emotionally struck, (or hidden money) AND it has a huge impact on the rest of my life.

I know how to listen. I also know H won't do well on his own. I know he will not listen for long if it's not what HE wants. And mind you, there were major gaps in his "offer" and the only thing other than the minimum he barked out 10 months ago, was the spousal support and how many years I'd want it. Like it just occurred to him.

(BTW, not sure if his L told him - but I did not say I expected SS the rest of my life. To my knowledge, no one did. Then again, the moment the judge ordered TEMPORARY support, h blurted out he would "not pay that the rest of" his life.

He really does hear what he fears, not what's said. (Why bother using words?)

The risk is him getting crazy mad, & reversing course to stubbornly cling to his original "f- u" approach. Own you have your strategy with your Narkles and I respect that you think it's what works for you. You know your h a lot better than I ever will.

But what I've read and what my T advises is NC. It has protected me immensely, as has FB blocking.
\
And he seems to be coming to the table without me having stuck my neck out.

My guess is that you would learn things that you would like to know or would hear things that would help with your closure.

yes I would obviously learn things I want to know, including how much he'll lie. It's intel gathering.

But not sure about how it would help with closure from this. Explain?

And I may not get "closure" from him. I actually do not expect it. In some ways I don't think it often exists in a form we can accept.

My older sister's h left after 22 years and 3 kids (and when I say she was a great wife, I freaking mean it. Still cannot think of a "flaw" in my older sister, other than being a nurse not earning 6 figures...)
HE called her to say he F-- up" about a month before she was to marry her new h.

I guess that is closure but she says 2 things

1) she will always feel some pain about the effect on the kids, and that she also struggles with the injustice of her ex having so much money, but being very detached from their kids. Like a monthly call or text and a weekend a year..."he's close to his kids!"

And 2) she feels much more valued in her present m. Her new (14 years now) h definitely makes her THE priority in his life.

Is that closure? I think it's the closest I have come to see it.

Also, your H will doubtless say things that have meaning to you and that your brother won't quite understand in the same way. A suggestion, set up a three-way call. Arrange in advance with your bro that he will do the talking.

Both of you have access to computers during the call so you can communicate and ask him to ask your H any questions you might have, and then, just sit back and listen.

I would love it if you could get him to walk through the different assets and have him verbally tell you what he thinks should happen to each and what his rationale is. Without you chiming in at all. The longer he talks, the looser his lips will get.

The more you sanitize this through the lawyers (like asking him to send you a lawyer-generated draft out of the gate), the less you learn and the more you are just repeating the same process. There is time for that later.

you mean redundant summaries and more $$ for the L's? When is the later time for it if we are negotiating?

You mean to say to h, "running it by my L's and will get back to you"??

Give him just enough rope to hang himself.

hang himself how so? And what am I doing about it, telling the judge about ex parte communications?

hang himself - The gaps in his proposal MAY be b/c he's just unprepared and jotted down a note

(like the scrap paper he used to mail D20's her "Dear d - good luck being on your own earlier! Btw, there is No money from me coming to you b/c.....b/c I RETIRED!!" -- with patient's notes on the back of the last page. All torn out of a small spiral notebook with words crossed out (that type of preparation??)

He might not be prepped, or he might hide things, and or lie

my guess is all 3 of the above^^^

FYI he originally - way back when-- demanded I give him a number. (Sarcastically?) suggested I take "all the retirement funds! Just give me a number! It's a simple questions!".

Should have said "oh, okay. And some up front cash."

But he was in no mood for that then. I was too foggy.

If we were to get in front of a judge, I think he'd lose.

I also believe he's been confronted with our son's affidavit and the fb posting from a patient thanking him for being such a great doctor (h was wearing the scrubs with the surgery center's name 3 months after he 'retired')

you know this I think. Own, one thing I must do is not want more of the money he is earning and hiding. On principle.

I told the kids we "might be able to settle this soon." no other info.

Then s31 texted me "WIN". And my d's sent thumbs up emojis. They are the wrinkle Own. I cannot cave in to H or my kids will feel let down.

I'm modeling something for them and I cannot be steamrolled. The little things my brother said not to be bogged down in, are very symbolic to me. The life insurance he cancelled, now costs us both more per month - to get survivors benefit, b/c the fool is just that.

Bro said "that's only a few hundred" and he's right. but it's a sticky point (not just to the kids), b/c it was indisputably mean. Kids see that as bullying and me just taking it.

H's L told mine that "h swore up & down he paid for it." And we all know there are the other monies.

The challenge there,^^ will be how to say "oh, hey I found an account that you probably overlooked but we need to divide that too....

as soon as he feels he does not look great, he may bolt. That is a pattern (not to mention how enjoyable it'll be for me).

You gotta wonder what his L thinks -if he's still around.

I did tell my L (and bet she passed it on, which I hoped) that H'sL

"is either suggesting h's dishonesty & contempt of court, or has the least client control of any L I've dealt with." Which is true for civil cases.

Please tell me we are not unicorns who don't actually lie for clients...?

I would just let him talk. And yes, have him give you his proposal. He knows where the proverbial bodies are buried and he is the one that has come forward with an agenda.

For quite some time now, MY L has said 'we need a number" without actually saying "25, YOU have to do all this computing and tell me and I'll tell h's L"

I don't know that she intends that to happen but I DO wonder what they are waiting for.

(To be fair, I have not looked carefully at my emails. Sh1t, maybe their proposals are all in there and I need to STFU.)

I'd like to have a counter (presented by bro or me or my L) number so I can deal with what to expect. I myself have done research and feel I know the range.

\
I also think by you sitting it out that you send him a message other than a confident lawyer/wife who will stand up for herself.

Meaning, to look weak for him? Not sure I can do that and I don't mean I'm incapable. I'm a better than average actress. I just don't know why I'd do that.

To address his narc head? yes I hear that but there are 2 reasons I'm not sure of it as a tactic.

H DETESTS paperwork + admin stuff + pressure from an emotional situation + him being on the spot in any situation he's not an expert in + him NOT feeling like a hero (& maybe Schmoopie pressure to get married - or break up)

will either make him lash out - or settle/flee to end it asap. Historically, he has caved into the IRS, authority figures like his parents, to avoid conflict (& hold it against them).

A lashing out of a snarky remark ,sure. But consistently fighting it out like this ---his position with me & the legal quagmire has been new. I'm positive this was worse than h expected.

since his lashing out behavior has Not benefited him (or me), I think he wants it over.

And I can remain calm in the face of a storm.

Just consider it.

I'm not saying to commit to anything without running it by your lawyer, but before anyone puts pen to paper just listen to the guy.

I will and am considering it. This was a surprise (isn't it great he still surprises me??? That's romance!)

I'd never dream of signing off without my L reading it first & getting my CFP;'s thoughts & any other resource.

((( )))

Journalling

went to DivorceCare last night. It's restarted for a new group, and yet many of my "classmates" from last spring are retaking it. Two people at least, are taking it for a 3rd time. (It's almost free, btw). And my group had continued to meet over the summer at a restaurant nearby.

There, we meet people who are or are going to be divorced or navigating something new with their ex, or kids, etc.

And you meet people for whom the wound is fresh and raw, a few were like patients who have a sucking chest wound. You just want to hug them and tell them they WILL get through this.

One young woman came who has 2 small kids, & she could barely speak. Her h is leaving this Saturday, just taking his clothes. She's taking the kids to a party while he packs and leaves. They'll return home to a missing daddy and she gets to handle any fallout, I guess.

Anyway, telling them I'm 11 months into this and thought I'd be done or "all better" led me to realize that I need to be a lot easier on myself. There is no one grading me, no bar exam to "pass". Progress is real, it's happening. I can prod myself but have to realize that being gentle with myself is not the same as staying stuck.

D28 is here from LA and d20 arrives Friday. Other than massive paperwork (which I'm not sure how to organize, to be honest), my place looks good. I'm proud of it and showing D28 around the urban area makes me feel like
"hello, this is home for me now, and it's pretty cool."

Plus they can see that indeed, you can move from a very large house into a condo but there's always room in mom's house.

That is where I am at the moment.

As for h, and his phone call - I think I'll call my L's Monday and suggest we narrow down what is in dispute (which has been the same area for a few months now).

It's mostly about Spousal support and I'm just not sure if h thought we could use my brother to work this out. I'm one of 4 L's in my family and on that bro USED to do divorce law but not in CA.

Oh and btw, that bro is doing trial work for Securities fraud, whic is not all that related to divorce. Like, at all.

(except for the fraud part

!)

To speculate for JUST a minute, I can see h believing my brother should "just do us a favor" of enormous time and care, without saying much more than a brief "thanks a lot."

And not even admit it's a huge favor...h never liked feeling in debt to anyone but that did not stop his expectations. It's just that he would not feel in debt, anyhow...

entitlement is a hallmark I never pinpointed till recently. I knew h would wait till the last minute for a favor so that the person would feel great pressure, but didn't see it as the entitled thing it is.

Okay, negative spiral over, who knows what's in h's mind?

Quote:

One young woman came who has 2 small kids, & she could barely speak. Her h is leaving this Saturday, just taking his clothes. She's taking the kids to a party while he packs and leaves. They'll return home to a missing daddy and she gets to handle any fallout, I guess.

25...These stories are heartbreaking. So sorry you're going through this ordeal.

Quote:

there's always room in mom's house.

Always felt that way about my mom's house, too, until she moved into a 2-story townhouse. There's still room, but with little kids the stairs became a bit of a chore (someone always leaves a shoe upstairs). Something to think about!

25,
I see a lot of parallels in our WHs. My WH is ultimately concerned about how he appears to others more than how he feels about himself. So when we are out he acts very charitable and concerned about the neighbors yards (We're in Florida post Irma) and offers to help them out, meanwhile I am moving the sandbags and unpacking everything while he sits on his rump. We stayed at a friend's house during the storm and she saw how he just sorta acts like he is helping out with babysitting but doesn't actually DO anything parenting related. I have a feeling my WH will definitely let his narcissistic colors fly when the divorce starts rolling. I wouldn't put it past him to drag out the process and hide money.

25,
I'm not posting or reading much these last few days, for crazy reasons.... but I'm always drawn to yours.
All I can add to what you said above is this~

you and I are about the same age, with grown children, with Hs who are not being a family part, and at least one child who is gay, so we are in a similar struggle.

All I can advise you as you approach this weekend with part of the kids at "home", is this- through the troubling years, with both my kids in and out, I always had a certain "smell", whether it was me or the candles I specifically had on hand from a certain place, or the companion lotion and spray, or maybe all of it- no matter the actual footage or geographical location of the "home" I was in, I always made sure the smell was there- and without fail, that's the first thing they said, Wow, this smells like Leahsue." Which was a huge thing for me. Not that I didn't stumble into it, or planned it, but now I DO make sure that same smell is wherever life takes me. And so may it be with you, whether it's a smell, or a blanket, or a laundry detergent, or whatever you choose, I know first hand that it brings grown children peace to "feel" their Mama there, wherever that turns out. So maybe focus on that, and just let them soak that in- in the bed sheets, the sofa blankets, the whole house smell. That will comfort them, and remind them of you later, and bring some sense of peace and normality to them, wherever they go.

That's all I have tonight. I'm still reeling from this last round of Husband being here for ten days, and trying to sort my feelings and life post-visit. I will try to pull it together enough tomorrow to post on my own thread, but I wanted to reach out to you tonight.

Our WD Eagles didn't shine, but that's ok, we still love them and there's always a "next week".

Keep hanging on, and giving hugs to those newbies in your DC group- no one NEVER needs a hug. We all do. God bless those of us brave enough to step out there and give them.

More soon on my thread about my last 10 days with H. I need serious insights from all sides, so I'll have to lay it out like it really is, to get honest feedback. Please stay tuned, Love you, 25!

Thanks all.

Leah, he11s yes to the scents! From November till January, I have home made poupurri going and sometimes I make pies.

I do feel mega stressed (h's call could not have been worse timing given that the d's are here and a big wedding marathon).

I just wanted to have fun as a family with my family and no h issues.

OH I won $50 last night for knowing that the THORACIC levels are between the cervical and lumbar. (Yeah, I might have picked up something from h along the way. God knows there was enough schooling).

So a guy in the audience says "Oh admit it. You're a DOCTOR!"

I should have said "doctor of LAW"

but I admitted "my stbx Husband is a doctor" and then the guy says (joking but still)

"That's cheating" And I almost linked the "Doctor and cheating" terms...like "yeah seems so"

but I refuse to be that way!!

OH So last night when I get in from the fun night with d28 and my family, bro calls and says

"h texted and wants to talk."

Totally changes my mood and I'm WITH MY D28!

She's the one that cannot discuss h at all. Anyhow, my a/c broke and I think I need to work on it rather than wait for the handy guy to come and rescue me. Fuses look good and fan not working either. UGH!!

Seriously?

Anyhow, keep me posted folks!

OH

PS

my gut says even though I want to settle this divorce soon, I'd be a moron to trust h.

Not sure how to get that across (to h) without sounding disapproving and THAT is what h would react to. Not that he did anything "untoward" (best euphemism for $h1tty behavior I can come up with atm)

Also IF h informs me that he wants to hurry the D so he can marry Schmoopie OW

All I can think to say is "of course you do." And go to the next topic...

Shoot, now I've lost my appetite. Wish that had happened earlier...

Leah

I'll catch up soon

remember we don't HAVE to decide anything now

and do check out the local Divorce Care groups. It's hands on guidance to getting thru this.

NOT Pro Divorce at all, but also not getting bogged down in the emotional aspects,

but more the practical you "need to know this now" stuff. Incredibly helpful.

You don't need to talk to him, just ask him to send his proposal to you in writing. Keep all interactions by email if you can. I still get a knot in my stomach when I see an email from my ex in my inbox, but it's less than the knot I get from a text or a phone call, so I gradually trained him to do email only.

If he called , I "just happened" to drive through a hole in the cell coverage and the call got dropped. (When actually, I was snapping my old flip phone shut with a satisfying crack). When he called back, I'd answer "oh sorry, must have driven through a hole!" Or wait a bit and text that to him instead.

If he texted, I'd email him in response. Or tell him I sent him an email about it.

Eventually, all contact became via email - where I didn't have to see it if I didn't want to, and where I had time to consider my responses.

The less contact the better. And if he's anxious to marry Schmoopie (or has gotten her knocked up), all the more leverage to get a good settlement.

Update

wedding hoopla begins soon. Saw comedians with sisters and d28 last night. Good times.

Sometimes d28 takes a parental tone with me and I'm not sure that's b/c of the hospitalization or divorce or what. I'm not crazy about it but I know it's well intended.

d20 comes tonight.

H called bro again. And then texted bro that he wanted to talk. Bro works full time but told me.

When I text bro for details, he's too busy to give good answers.

I asked what h's tone was like, b/c I'm not in the mood for more surprises and want to gird myself for declarations from h. Like that he's marrying schmoopie OW and wants out of the m now or starts in on why he's the hero/victim and I'm the villain.

Or whatever.

So then My bro replied that h's tone is "Pleading".

Wth?

This is a happy family weekend event for me and mine. It's not for h to intrude upon. (Sometimes I wonder if he knows it's happening now. I guess if he took the time to look on fb, at any remaining family members, he could). But that would require effort and interest in others.
This set me back.

My anxiety is going up instead of excitement and Crap, I was spinning again and with my d28 here!

It was so distracting to me that I -YES- I- texted h

"bro told me you two spoke. This weekend is nieces' wedding and hoopla. So next week would be better."

and that's^^^ it. Sisters and T agree it's better for ME not to have direct talks.

Any fact that notes a flaw or error or violation of the court order that I present to h, no matter how empirically verified & calmly stated, will be seen as an "attack."

I'm not doing another eggshell discussion. I'd win at trial, which h may now know or fear.

And my guess is h is "pleading" b/c of pressure he feels. (Join the club). I'll call my L this Monday and let her know that we can probably narrow down the areas of dispute (which in MY mind were narrowed down months ago...)

At least now I can breathe and enjoy the weekend activities. Probably

Dear 25,

Please be careful. I can only compare your experience with mine. 8 yrs and a half after bomb, too much contact with ex-h still triggers anxiety in me.

From what i have read in your story, i would advise the NO- CONTACT rule. See, from his mood in the call, you got questions and confusion...

How do you feel about your bro being added in the legal procedure? Your brother loves you and will protect you but do you think he might also share only what he beleives you want to hear as to protect your heart and feelings. If he sees you struggleing, he might with- hold bits and pieces from you..

Your L should be the one to handle ALL communications between the 2 of you..

Any " faux pas " on your stbx would be usable in your case. Not sure if what is shared with your bro would have power in the court room...

His reason for pushing this forward is irrelevant.. keep your eyes on the finish line..

Take care 25

have a wonderful week-end!!!

I hear you. No more direct contact. Almost the only form in a year...

I get it

thanks for reminding me though!

I almost felt sorry for h but then I remembered OH YEAH, he's the same H who put me thru hell.

And maybe, MAYBE he nows feel badly...but maybe that is ALL about him.

Irrelevant and that is 100% true.

And if you MUST contact him, do it by email, not text. Easier to keep documentation and an email back from him doesn't require immediate response.

Also - why are you narrowing down your areas of dispute? Don't give away your bargaining chips. You can use those things you don't care that strongly about as bargaining chips.

Originally Posted By: kml

And if you MUST contact him, do it by email, not text. Easier to keep documentation and an email back from him doesn't require immediate response.

Fair^^^ but turns out, any "direct" contact with him seems too tempting for me to blast him, which gets me nowhere. And it obsesses me. Truly No Contact is best for me.

I need brother and or Lawyer to forward my wants. And I will ask for it all.

I think we both just want it over. The piece of this that is ego, of course is bothered.

But I get that.
For some reason I really want it "known" (as if) that h was the one who delayed things. Not me.

His insistence on not paying me "a cent" and that he'd "rather be a pauper" and his repeated court violations are why we are still not divorced after a year of sep. He's cheap and selfish and dishonest. Oh yeah.

I assume he wants to marry schmoopie or "begin" working (i mean, openly) and thus, the pressure to move forward. Who knows? Maybe he's on Schmoopie #2...

Even though it hurts to feel replaced, (& it does) that is not a new feeling. Plus it kind of makes no difference. I mean, I know we are done. i know I am done.

I have nothing to give h except maybe, someday, cordiality and pity. The man I thought I loved and was devoted to, is like someone I knew a long time ago. That lovable guy is not "dead" per se, (b/c if he is, no one told me and no one brought food!)

more like he's on the Australian bush and is unreachable, maybe always will be...

He's a Separate entity from the cruel jerk h who has not seen our kids in a year, demanded they embrace HIS happiness with OW, treated me so badly when I was so sick, and has engaged in such long term deceit and character assassination that I'm just sickened by him and the past year has royally sukked.

At the moment I'm as disgusted by my renting so much head space to him - as I am to his behavior.

Today, I feel duped and I deeply resent that. Very tired of it. I think I've flipped the switch and I hope it lasts.

I am fairly confident that mostly it's about the money fears now. Fears that are holding me back, not the wish for my old life. The "itchy sweater" feeling I had suppressed the past few years was NOT okay with me.

I don't miss that, and I don't miss the eggshells h required and the high maintenance and not so subtle controlling negative forces in my life. OMG I'm shaking my head that an educated funny attractive woman *(YES ME!!) could have put up with this for so long

the law of sunken costs -- yeah i remember. (*Obviously I'm journalling here in free association).

Okay so, my nieces' WEDDING Saturday was a blast. Top 5 weddings of the 40 I've attended. I had maybe a total of 4-5 minutes cumulatively of feeling teary, but I contained them and I danced wildly. Also made a pretty brilliant toast, btw. (It was a good toast, but then there were a ton of rambling mumbling toasts which made MINE look better by comparison...

)

d20 got way too drunk (as did most of the millennials, so maybe I'll just stop obsessing about that) and thankfully, no one was driving.

Some of the groomsmen took their shirts off later in the night. So some cops were called due to reports of "strippers" but ALAS, that was not true. It was hot and humid and we were just dancing.

Also they did NOT look bad without their shirts...just saying.

Also - why are you narrowing down your areas of dispute?

because I don't want to rehash what we know I'm getting (half the pension and at least half the nest egg.)

H pretends it's a concession; its not. Those are givens.

Don't give away your bargaining chips. You can use those things you don't care that strongly about as bargaining chips.

understood

Quote:

more like he's on the Australian bush and is unreachable, maybe always will be...

Interesting you say this.

During the year of our separation I found a lot of healing in my dreams. They were vivid and memorable and very clear in their meaning.

The one that caused me to finally drop the rope with Mr. Fantastic was that I was walking down a long hotel corridor looking for him. I stopped at one door and I knew he was inside the room, sitting on a recliner and playing video games. The room was totally empty otherwise. (I don't know how I knew this since the door was closed, but just go with me here... it was a dream.) Anyway, I knew he was in there and I knocked and knocked and called to him, but he just sat in his recliner playing video games. I think there was a sense that he wanted to get up and open the door, but didn't know how to. And after a time, I just had to keep on walking; I couldn't stay there knocking and calling for the rest of my life.

And when I woke up I was ok with leaving him behind.

I have always taken comfort with the thought that he wanted to get up and answer the door, but didn't know how. I think that was true, given how poorly he relates to people. But it's also true that the hallway was stretching in front of me, and his was only one door. I am still angry with so much of how he's behaved. And hurt that sometimes it seems like he's trying to send the message that *I* was the problem, and he's just fine, thank you very much. But that dream had truth in it.

I think it's true for your H too. Where Mr. Fantastic had video games Dr. Alaska has the tundra. He uses women to get him there, but at the end of the day he just doesn't know how to answer the call to a deeper, richer relationship and so he just moves on to the next one and the next one, where they can stay fairly shallow at least for a time.

I'm so glad you had such a great time at the wedding. I've been thinking about you. Thanks for checking in.

Boy, you said I write allot?

I think I've caught up on where you are at the moment, but i did skim a little ;-)

Sounds like you are already are onto what H wants to avoid. In my experience, Judges do see through all the games and if they have a good idea that he is hiding assets, he will get roasted. His L probably told him that and thats why he called your brother. I think its as simple as that. As others have said, just let the process work itself out ad for goodness sake don't contact him directly ;-)

Originally Posted By: KGuy

Boy,- i did skim a little ;-)

Sounds like you are already are onto what H wants to avoid. In my experience, Judges do see through all the games and if they have a good idea that he is hiding assets, he will get roasted.

I can't recall if you were in a CA divorce, K, but that'd^^^ be great if true,

but unless I locate the assets, it's an extreme pain. Are you familiar with CA law? Alaska's subpoenas require Alaskan attorneys there Because theres no reciprocity, so it increases hassle & costs.

Also, I "won" 8 months ago and have yet to receive the full amount in a single month. I can objectively say that H has played dirty, and I believe he'll lose at trial. (I could be wrong). H "retired" to avoid paying support.

But even winning will cost me/us $100k more, and perhaps more importantly will cause me to borrow more money from family and friends.

I have never, ever borrowed money from people before. It's not cool. I'll do it if mandatory, but at some point you have to ask yourself - for instance - if you want to pay $100k in legal fees to win $125k, a year later.

I no longer insist on what I think is "Fair" to me - so much as what I NEED to be financially secure. Maybe that's wrong, but its how i feel lately.

His L probably told him that and thats why he called your brother. I think its as simple as that.

Not so simple, I think there is pressure on h that is beyond his attorney advising him, b/c the attorney has told h his case is not strong the whole time.

My brother said h was "pleading" in his tone, (and no, I do not think it's likely that h wants to reconcile. Even if he did, there is too much water under the bridge, & I cannot see how trust would ever re-appear. I'm done. An aspect of ego would make it great to hear the grand apology but since I know I AM SO DONE, it's not as important as it may have once been. Even if h marries Schmoopie it only marginally bothers me. The feeling of being discarded and disregarded, is pretty $h1tty. I admit that.

But being hurt is not the same as wanting h back and missing intimacy and being part of a couple, is not the same as missing my h.

H cannot be alone and he dove right into a relationship from our bed. And announced it on fb. What healthy secure (Kind or empathetic) man does that? ( And who wants to date a guy leaving a 35 year marriage the next day? --- or the months before?) .

I can't get into h's head so my goal in that arena is just not to let myself wonder.

It's already producing anxiety and confusion. & Backsliding into anger, so I'm redirecting my thoughts as best i can. And feeling very grateful for the meditation app.

As others have said, just let the process work itself out

I don't know who said that^ KG, b/c the advice I've gotten here is to get better or additional legal help and circumvent or speed up or press the process b/c the process sukks and is NOT working itself out.

I am not at all impressed by the process working itself out. That is why I'm fine with my brother involving himself, to an extent.

I am hoping Bro can reduce the issues H & I disagree on NOT b/c I'm giving into them but b/c h seems to think he is "Giving" me things like half the pensions whereas I'm entitled to it by law due to the length of our m and supporting him the whole time he worked there and I gave up a partnership in a law firm to move 9 times, take care of the kids ETC ETC ETC.

So that's not something I want to debate anymore and that's something my brother can assist in. AS IN --- "H, the pensions are Not negotiable as they are givens. So let's move on to something that we can negotiate, like giving 25 a lump sum in lieu of spousal support and..."

My CA lawyer will still have to sign off on things AND there are issues only My CA lawyer is qualified to do. Bro used to do divorce law but then years ago switched to a more pleasant and well paying specialty. (But bro was divorced and remembers quite a few realities.)

My hope is that my brother may get h to realize that h's numbers are just delusional.

If he fails, I won't have paid another $20k to Not get through to h

ad for goodness sake don't contact him directly ;-)

I get it, it was one text in a year, with 1 sentence on it, responding to H's 3-4 requests made in 24 hours - the night before a big family wedding...

(Um, Hells to the no.)

After 35 years of marriage & 2 years of dating, I am confident it was not pursuit.

So h and my brother (a L) spoke last night. Brother is not replacing my CA L, but helping narrow down what is actually in dispute.

In the 10 months since the court ruled that h was to pay me "$10" a month, (pension + temporary support), h has yet to pay the full amount. Not once.

And never the same date each month. I have to hunt for it and hope it's there. Oh and usually it's snail mail. What gives? When I could not drive, I had to take an uber to the bank. WTF?

ALSO H took all the joint accounts when we separated so that, in addition to spousal support, h owes me the half of our assets he took. It is not a small amount.

But When brother said that h is in arrears and ought to catch up with those, before we can discuss settling,

h told brother that his "L said he's Not in arrears."

HOW DO YOU FORGET THAT????

& I thought I was the comedian.

So I can't decide if h is being played by his L ("h, I will win big for you!") or if h "misunderstood" his L or just convinces himself of what he wishes. I doubt h told his L that he just took all the money when we separated. Oops.

Brother said h is "amenable" to settling & said h seems "worn and beaten down." It's so easy for me to feel sorry for h, but that is a very bad idea.

The 3 channels of H, Charm, rage and self pity.

I remind myself that h posted on FB about his "love of his life" OW just weeks after we sep, and bragged about introducing his new honey to "the family" (meaning his dad/brother since our kids refused). Who would be that cruel?

We were not fighting a lot before he left (H got mad a few times and it was, frankly, strange. All one sided, and way over the top. I get it now, but back then, I was bewildered by his anger).

H quit (or claimed to) his "greatest ever" job to avoid paying support and he told our kids that he would do so.

Why he told them, is beyond me. What was I supposed to do with that?

Oh yeah, and he was AWOL when I was in the hospital, which actually humiliated me and Oh yea, and h cut off tuition for d20... reading this^^ is like a splash of cold water in the face. "Thanks for the reality check, 25!"

When the LBS starts really thinking about a recon, I have to suggest an objective review of events. NOT to keep score but to assess how they'll feel down the road. Can they trust and find peace again, with the partner who inflicted so much pain on them?

my cousin and aunt reconciled with their spouses, but it was a few years after they divorced.

I presume there's a h wants to marry Schmoopie, or openly working at the surgery center as he has been the whole time. My brother said he seemed "worn out and beaten down."

I'm working hard not to care. It's harder than I expected. I am not detached enough and still struggle with the injustice of his boldly $h1tty behavior.

It's only when I face the reality of who he is that I find comfort in my new life. Not revenge, just more peace. I am where I must be.

If one text from me to him & one back, in almost a year, threw me off this much, NC is best. .

h told my brother that the "kids are not talking" to him and that h was hurt. As far as I know, h's arms still work - so He could pick up a phone and call our kids.

The longer he goes without contact, the worse HE will feel and
H created the very alienation he resents. What a cycle.

I genuinely see him a lot differently. Like I said, there are 2 h's.

One is the man I deeply loved and committed to. Spent 2/3 of my life with. I figure that guy is on an interplanetary trip, where he's unreachable (or the Australian bush??)

and he's not coming back ever or for light years anyhow. (Maybe the kids will be able to reach him someday.)

The other man is the spew spitting lunatic I'm divorcing. Extremely irritable, dishonest and disloyal.

I cannot wait to be divorced from him.

How strange that^^ is to say.

It is strange to say. And to feel. But it is where the healing happens.

This is the worst part, 25, and you're doing beautifully. Keep up the great work.

How go things on the job front side??

Originally Posted By: Maybell

It is strange to say. And to feel. But it is where the healing happens.

This is the worst part, 25, and you're doing beautifully. Keep up the great work.

thank you Maybell. Except for when I was in the hospital and thought I was dying or permanently brain damaged, this IS the weirdest part.

Wow, as I typed that^^, I realized I wanted to say '

"this is the worst part" but then I hesitated b/c I didn't want to jinx myself.
How neurotic is ^^that?

As if God or the universe is going to punish me for thinking that THIS is the worst part!

("uh, oh, did 25 just say this is the worst part? No way! We'll show her how wrong she was! THIS is the worst part - NOW!!")

Maybell, how did you get through this financial part? It's IMPOSSIBLE not to get emotional, even though I can do the math logically. But a lot is attached to each number. "Oh, that number means h got to do this without me and I was living in my sister's basement. Nice. No problem..." OR "this number means I cannot live in a house in this area, so I need to adjust again...OR move"...

I'm sure to h, raising 3 kids as a single mom (effectively) was a breeze that meant I was eating bon bons watching TV.

Hey, what is a bon bon?? I do want to eat some and send h a photo and say "THIS is me eating a bon bon!" Of course, LATER I might do this...

Settlment wise - It's now more about getting what i need to feel financially safe than it is getting what is fair. I don't think getting what i believe is fair, can happen. Maybe if we were celebrities.

I could go on & on about my career sacrifices & h's pristine resume & work history.

But to be fully honest (& fair to h), i got time with my kids in a nice home, for years. I'm close to them (& i'm sad that h isn't). My kids and I have a lot of memories and laughs and we had great vacations (mostly without h). The kids grew up in a lovely area with great schools. They attended excellent private universities and D20 still is - (no thanks to h)

I hope the kids will ultimately be alright. I do think h is pretty screwed up - some serious distortion in his marital revisions, lots of ironic victimhood. So I worry that someday my kids will pull something like this or suffer in some way, as adults.

My kids are older now, and so I'm not merely projecting about h having a skewed perspective. It is a very distorted view of our family life, amnesia about his long long absences, which he seems to have literally, forgotten. I'm talking 8 of 11 years, off and on. (D20 did the math). H was involved in 90% of the family conflicts, and so now that I know I'll survive without h, and that this D is going to produce more peace in me and more happiness in my future, I find I see him now more realistically. This^^ is usually a good thing, I think.

How go things on the job front side??

Not great. I have never had the experience of not being pursued, professionally. And I'm not licensed here (not in this state or in a nearby state.) There is a hiring freeze as well, so government jobs for lawyers are not existent unless you are politically connected which I am no longer. I can change it up and do better.

Maybell, I have some leads but even those are time consuming and I need more professional clothes too.

Apparently 1999 clothes are NOT what is in.

Hi 25. Stay strong. I pray that you get your fair share and that God perfects everything concerning you and your kids.
I like how you can still look back and still appreciate certain things in your marriage. Most people almost always rewrite everything to make it all negative.

25 -- On the financial side, it was about 8 months of nail biting and prayer. But at the bottom of it I felt confident that one way or another the kids and I would be OK. There was a lot at stake that I worried they'd have to give up, but I also knew if they did, that I would figure it out. I got a GREAT lawyer that I put my trust in and just held on for the roller coaster.

Of course, Mr. Fantastic didn't pull the shenanigans that Dr. Alaska did, so I didn't have to experience the humility of borrowing large amounts of money. He never ran off with money or declined to pay support, but I know what I would have done if he had -- and apparently he did too, becauase although he did (and occasionally still does) express rage at the amount of money he's having to pay, he pays it.

The job thing has been, by far, the hardest part. I'm in the process of figuring out how to move out of my second job since taking off 13 years to raise the kids. This time around, I've hired a career consultant to help me identify the things that I'm good at AND would enjoy over a long period of time.

Why just look for government or lawyer jobs? You have a wide breadth of skills from the time you were home with the kids. Would it be interesting to you to pursue a job with a non-profit, for example, that would use more of your skills than the lawyering experience? At least give yourself something to do that permits you to fixate on something other than GDS.

If we ever met IRL, I would be happy to connect you with people in my circle (you don't live that far from me.) I think you'd find work fairly quickly. The first job would not be the ideal one, but it would give you the opportunity to build your connections again.

Think outside the box, 25. Use some of the creativity that makes you funny and apply it to job problem solving. You've got this.

I have to agree - why limit to just Government jobs? If we've now reached the point where the government hires more attorneys than the private sector, this country is in more trouble than I thought! I know there are more attorneys in the ISA than jobs but there are certainly other things you can do - especially outside of government employment.

Originally Posted By: Maybell

25 -- On the financial side, it was about 8 months of nail biting and prayer. But at the bottom of it I felt confident that one way or another the kids and I would be OK.-

Of course, Mr. Fantastic didn't pull the shenanigans that Dr. Alaska did, so I didn't have to experience the humility of borrowing large amounts of money. He never ran off with money or declined to pay support,

but I know what I would have done if he had -- and apparently he did too, becauase although he did (and occasionally still does) express rage at the amount of money he's having to pay, he pays it.

Not to belabor this^. As It resonates with me. It is easier said than done.

I used to tell women to "go back to court!" every time their h's did not pay full CS or alimony. I said "it'll save you money in the long run".

Which was true EXCEPT the process wore them down and now, I get it. I'm still in the ring and I won't quit.

But I retract all the times I internally smirked at "weak women" who did not go to battle every time their h's pulled crap. I used to tell them that "in the end" they'd be fine.

I'm not sure what I meant then, maybe "not dead or on the streets".

Maybell, prior to the past year, fear had not been a big part of my life. Sometimes righteous anger or sadness, but not really fear. I had faith and self confidence.

But this past year has shaken me to my core. The sense of betrayal is gut wrenching and has flared up more recently- (maybe b/c the divorce is not final??)

even after I felt I had processed it. Even after I felt detached from it and cognitively believed I had "dodged a bullet" by filing for divorce.

The health care fears were nearly overwhelming. The utter loss of control with full seizures, frankly, embarrassed me. The post seizure memory loss & confusion were incredible blows to my ego.

Articulate intelligence is probably what I most identify with internally. (That, and my hilarious wit).

Nothing like being unable to speak intelligibly, or to recall what was just said, to humble one. Fortunately I feel like myself now. The upcoming hearing or settlement conference has, periodically, freaked me out. So there's a sort of "backslide" feeling.

The job thing has been, by far, the hardest part. I'm in the process of figuring out how to move out of my second job since taking off 13 years to raise the kids.

Amen. Even though I'm sure I'm not the only woman in her 50's re-entering the job force, I'm not encouraged so far. Obviously I'll keep at it.

This time around, I've hired a career consultant to help me identify the things that I'm good at AND would enjoy over a long period of time.

I literally don't have the money to do this^^^ YET. I love this idea. (I'm not exaggerating the cash flow problem. And I assume this was partly h's intent when he refused to pay. He will save HIS money and show me!

Why just look for government or lawyer jobs? You have a wide breadth of skills from the time you were home with the kids. Would it be interesting to you to pursue a job with a non-profit, for example, that would use more of your skills than the lawyering experience? At least give yourself something to do that permits you to fixate on something other than GDS.

Hey thank you.

I am Not sure what "GDS" means (G- Damn - $h1t???)

But I assume it's government something.

I am totally open to non government jobs (I would prefer them. Although gov benefits are something I may need to consider more, I can think of many non profits that interest me.

I love the arts & performing arts, for instance. Veteran's issues, too. (I'm a veteran, btw)

The 2 main reasons the government jobs get the focus is

because 1) there are a lot of them here as an industry, except oops, there's a freeze; and

because 2) H's lawyer focusses on them.

Oh, btw, not sure if you know this Maybell, but per h's request, the court ordered me to CA to get a vocational evaluation. Flew out to CA for a 7 hour deposition (that was super fun.

)

Apparently the evaluator (HIS witness) felt that the work gap in my resume actually matters in the job market. And not in a good way.

So h is not using the report she wrote.

Aside from gov jobs she suggested for which I sometimes don't qualify, (i.e. bar membership in their state - a state in which I'm not licensed) -

she did have some good suggestions about non profits. She also said "80% of jobs that are filled were not advertised."

Yikes.

Oh, and H's lawyer said "25 should just move to the state in which she's licensed and hang out a shingle".

We were assigned there 20 years ago. I remain in contact with 2 wonderful women there, who are NOT lawyers. Just saying.

Oh, & h's job expert witness addressed the idea of me "just hanging out a shingle" there, and said "that does not seem promising for 25."

Ironically, if I do get a raw deal in court, I'll probably need to move there as it's so much cheaper there to buy a home. All those years ago, our family was intact and I have many good memories of it.

Sure, I'd be starting over socially, mostly. But it's not the first time, and I have good people skills.

Maybell, let's make margaritas, in honor of said (but unsaid) state.

If we ever met IRL, I would be happy to connect you with people in my circle (you don't live that far from me.) I think you'd find work fairly quickly. The first job would not be the ideal one, but it would give you the opportunity to build your connections again.

GOOD! We must find each other!

Think outside the box, 25. Use some of the creativity that makes you funny and apply it to job problem solving. You've got this.

thanks a lot And I am thinking outside the box and crave the purpose one gets in a job - even a "not great" job b/c there is structure.

I sent in a resume to an architectural company b/c I love the homes they design and build and said "contracts, right??". No interview but they responded well, so yeah, I am thinking in new ways.

I would love a job with meaning, but I'm fine with at least a job that leads me to the job with meaning.

Thank you again.

ps

pretty sure some of my job hunt is affected by the sense of a sword hanging over my head.

Depending on what type of settlement we reach, if any, affects my job needs. A lot.

And I think the ego blow is playing a role. I need to work on that, obviously.

Wouldn't have gone back to court. I would have gotten his wages garnished and told his parents everything. Mr. Image Management would have hated that. (As it happens, I got a lawyer who was such a bully he scared me and we got the whole thing settled without having to deal with the court. That was intentional. I didn't want to spend limited resources that way.)

I have a friend whose husband is in jail and left her with seven children and she has no means of supporting them. His family have utterly abandoned her and her children. Her parents would help if they could but there's little they can do for her and they live 1000 miles away.

And yet she's just fine. Maybe not 100% awesome, but managing, and manages to still smile. A lot. She celebrates her children every day. She has her struggles, and they aren't small. But she's just fine.

If she can manage, you can too.

I didn't hire the career coach for my first job. I am hiring her for my third job. The first two I just figured out as best I could. It's only now that I'm feeling sturdier that it made sense to make that investment in myself.

My first job was as an admin assistant. Because of that sword hanging over my head I didn't think I was capable of handling anything else. (For a while, also, I wasn't.)

JUST. ANYTHING. Will do. Temp or anything.

One of my coping mechanisms during this time was to write notes to God in the moments when I just couldn't carry that load any more, asking for exactly what I felt I needed to carry on till the next day.

Go back to that facebook post I mentioned. A few other people found me... you can too...

[quote=Maybell]Wouldn't have gone back to court. I would have gotten his wages garnished and told his parents everything.

Ugh. Here I go...sorry for the long rant to come!

I did get his wages garnished. He did not like that. So He quit! And he showed me!

And in the 2 months when the garnishments happened h did not send the pension check! So I never got both the 1/2 pension and support but H complained to the world how high HIS "alimony" was. It might have been if he'd ever paid it in full.

Anyhow, yes now or soon, the feds and military have court orders and
Since the pension check %s will soon come directly to me (not b/c he is "Giving" them to me but b/c I earned them)

he will either work openly on the tundra and I'll have the wages garnished- or he'll continue to do what he is now, going underground and hiding income. Working off the books until trial or settlement.

- I'm fairly certain he is putting his labor toward his buy in of the partnership there. In fact I'm about 90% sure of that. Nothing else makes sense unless he's decided money does not matter to him anymore, which would be nothing short of a miraculous personality transplant.

As for telling his dad/step mom, I have given that a lot of thought. But I don't think that will work. I think h has done some serious character assassination on me, over the years. I am only learning some of this recently. It adds to the sense of betrayal.

Plus, he is their blood (but my kids are FIL's only grandkids, so you would think that mattered more...ouch) I want to ask my kids if FIL/wife have reached out to them, but I am afraid the answer is no, and that I will hurt them more by asking.

H loves loves loves impression management and he Craves his dad's approval while also resenting his dad for mistreating his late mother in their divorce, in which h's mom got nothing after 18 years of m.
(Why yes, irony abounds.)

SIDENOTE my late MIL told her L that she "just wanted out!". She seemed proud of that later, but then would complain that she got nothing.

A good L would have argued with his client more but I cannot say how adamant MIL was but it was a catastrophic error on her part, however.

She worked 2 jobs until she retired and smoked a ton under all that stress. Also always had money problems. Retired and got lung cancer and died.
Though everyone in our family knows how deeply h resents his dad for the divorce, h has never told his father this.

Too "Conflict avoidant"

(when can we say "dishonest/cowardly" instead of this ^^ euphemism?)

Also I expect that h wants the inheritance.

I'm no longer sure where I stand with my FIL, which hurts. And his wife - I thought - loved me.

So if h did not have the money for d20's tuition, why didn't he just ask his dad? Pride or

b/c he really wanted to punish d20/me/us. Of all the kids, d20 has spoken up the most with effective reality checks on h.

Which means they may not even know. How could he tell them he cut her off? But yeah, I assume character assassination, no disclosure of cutting d20 off, and either pretending we are "working it all out and everyone's happier this way"

or that I "turned the kids against" him.

OMG I FORGOT SOMETHING!!

On h's recent income/expenses list, where he says he's so poor, too old, etc blah blah blah

he also listed d20's tuition as an expense of HIS. And somehow his expense are $16k a month.

That ^^^ is stunningly ballsy behavior. Or delusional, or just big time deceitful.

I mean, wow. My L warned me not to burst into flames reading them.

, I got a lawyer who was such a bully he scared me and we got the whole thing settled without having to deal with the court. That was intentional. I didn't want to spend limited resources that way.)

I am with you here^^, even though I feel fairly confident (85%??) that I'd win pretty big at a trial. But if numbers are, for example, spending $100k to get $125K a year later, maybe no thanks.

I have a friend whose husband is in jail and left her with seven children and she has no means of supporting them. His family have utterly abandoned her and her children.
Her parents would help if they could but there's little they can do for her and they live 1000 miles away.

you have to wonder (b/c we have a moral compass) if the h's family is so overwhelmed by what she may need, that they don't even offer a pittance by comparison. I mean, what if the decent member of that family -pretend there is one!- could send her $50 a month.

Would your friend scoff or accept it graciously? I'm serious. I have had moments in which I wondered if my multimillionaire FIL and his w could just give h the money HE owes me. It would save ME a hassle and their granddaughter d20, would not have been nearly as stressed this past summer as she was (suicidally actually). So if FIL had sent me $25, I might have lit the check on fire...rather than muttering a feeble "thanks so much".

But that is in the past now. Deep breaths, 25, deep breaths.

-

If she can manage, you can too.

Yes, I can. I am, I will.

The weird panic attacks might be medication related? I saw that pounding heart beats are side effects.

But then, HOW WOULD I KNOW if it's stress?

My first job was as an admin assistant. Because of that sword hanging over my head I didn't think I was capable of handling anything else. (For a while, also, I wasn't.)

Def makes sense. The distractibility & poor concentration was scary & amazing. It's much better now in part b/c I WANT the distractions.

Oh, Odd insight - If I were not in an area where I have family & friends, I think my concerns from my pride would be zero, and I'd take anything.

What am I worried about? That My high school nemesis will brag that she was right to sleep with my 18 y/o boyfriend!??

Hmm, I have to ponder this b/c it's a weird unhelpful hinderance.

JUST. ANYTHING. Will do. Temp or anything.

Temping has a lot of appeal. I will call tomorrow.

Go back to that facebook post I mentioned. A few other people found me... you can too... [/quote]

My faith is opened and I (usually) feel great strength and love from it. I have had some "dark night of the soul", as have we all. And I wake in a stronger better way.

My Gal for tonight is a dinner out with childhood friends. My dog is also invited.

I'll check the fb out tomorrow if I cannot sooner.

And

Maybell, thank you.

25, I wasn't suggesting that my battle strategies WRT Mr. Fantastic were transferable or what you should be doing. My ex is a lot younger than your ex, and his parents are still married to each other. His grandfathers were both cheaters and there was a lot of blowback in the family before I found out what a liar Mr. F is, so I think I'd get some traction with the in-laws if I'd had to go scorched earth. To care for my kids, though, I would have. Also, my in-laws still send me Christmas presents, so they're still receptive to me. And my FIL and his brothers-in-law (childhood friends) would have come down HARD on Mr. F for not supporting his family. Not to mention his new boss that we'd moved to MD for, who Mr. Fantastic even said in a moment of clarity would not have looked kindly on his behavior at all.

I only said I knew what I would do if I'd had to, and that would have been Plan A. Plan B involved moving down to my parents' house, which would have been awful but better than homeless on the streets. Thankfully, it didn't come to that. Mr. Fantastic is not as b@llsy as Dr. Alaska.

My friend did turn to her former in-laws for help when her twin sons graduated high school and she had no means to send them to college. They turned her down. THEN she would have accepted $50 with gratitude. NOW she'd light it on fire. It's a shame.

I enjoy hearing from you but I'm not so sure it's great for you to post very often. Your H is behaving as badly as T's and you keep coming back to how badly it's burning you up. I understand why and agree with you. But I worry that you're at risk of being stuck in your anger because the process is stalled at the moment. Give it some thought?

PS the FB post was a hint about how to find me...

Just keep swimming, 25, and think of it like the years your kids were potty-training. Each of those days seemed gross and endless and exhausting, and I personally got through them by remembering always that the kids would not go to kindergarten still pooping their pants. This is the same thing. There will be an after. Whether that after comes with $50k of money or $300k of money is really only somewhat important. What's important is that it will come WITHOUT Dr. Alaska, you will have a self-made future, your kids, your family, and ultimately, useful work that you love. Keep your eye on that prize and try to find a strategy for releasing the injustice of the present.

All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.

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