Park......my W and I are separated and I really only see two options.
1. I file and see if that wakes her up and I would only do it if it was truly what I wanted.
2. Gal, detach, etc. life your life and really in a nut shell wait it out. People don't like to call it limbo and if you can get to the right mindset it's probably not however in reality your still waiting. Semantics in my opinion.
I think everyone has different levers to pull based on their Sitch. Some it could be separating, some it could be the lbs filing for D, others the WW wakes up. I think the point is to save yourself and whatever happens with you W won't matter. I think all of us want our families back together however it takes 2 to make that happen.
I personally have accepted that my marriage is over, that happened the moment she walked out the door.
Park,
I agree with Joseph. At the end of the day the WW has to see that what she is losing is better than what she is hoping to gain. In my sitch I am competing as against the influence of OM, potential OM who are interested in being ON who are giving advice (Even though they habe their own W.) Two bff who are cheating on thwor own significant others. And at this point I just don't feel like I should be competing with people who obviously ain't sh*t.
And prior to the A, W would have recognized this in all these people. It's honestly probably going to take my W seeing me with her replacement for the fog to finally blow away. Knowing my W she'll probably go into panic mode at that point. My W in any circumstance has to learn the hard way and this situation will not be angy different apparently.
You asked about my relationship status. Honestly, it feels like we are in the stage after piecing, but I hesitate to say that because I don't want to get complacent about the need to continually improve as a spouse.
My situation was very different from yours. There was no affair, and my husband and I never stopped living together, although he went so far as to look at apartments online and come up with an asset division plan.
I followed DR. I credit it with helping me change, but obviously my husband deserves the bulk of the credit for our M status, because he chose not to leave.
One thing about your sitch. You say you don't pursue, but haven't you also told her you will always be there for her? That's pursuit.
Rose,
I made that same mistake with my W initially in my sitch. Telling her that even after the MR, I would still be here waiting for her. Huge mistake on my part. Sure she wasn't the least bit impressed by that. Probably thought I was pathetic for saying that as well. Pretty sure she laughed with OM abiut that as well. Yeah I was a mess at the time. That is pretty much the pursuit that never ends.
I did the same thing......I think we all make those mistakes early on. I'm not sure anyone DB's immediately at BD
. Live, learn and move on. Hopefully DBing is smooth sailing once we get our sea legs under us!
Hi Rose,
NO I've never told her that ever. I just feel when she comes to interacting with me I should not push her away show her someone who is confident, happy who is just getting on with life.
Again being friendly and a safe place for her I feel is more conducive to re-establishing the MR R than being distant and almost accepting the A. I feel that her seeing me as a person who will be okay whatever the outcome and acting "as if" I know the MR can R (but never tell her) is more tangible than isolation.
But remember I'm not going to pursue this, I'm continuing to detach and work on myself, getting out and doing things with the kids and friends.
I just won't be "stand-offish" when she comes to talk as long as there is no mention of the A or her AP/LO. She need to respect that what she's done to me has consequences but that doesn't mean we can't interact with strong boundaries...
Until the AP/LO is out of the picture there will be no possibility of R I know this but don't blow the last bridge up from "fantasy island" be the lighthouse...
Mark.
Joseph,
It's not over until its over. I'll fight and then when I feel there's no more fight in me I'll continue for at LEAST another year...
Continue the fight.
Mark.
There are a lot folks on here that have been fighting for years and I admire them! I orginally told myself 6 months and then I would re-evaluate based on how I feel and my overall view of my sitch.
It's not over until its over. I'll fight and then when I feel there's no more fight in me I'll continue for at LEAST another year...
parkema,
Like everyone else, I did all of the wrong things at first. But, after I regained my composure, I began to feel like I'd been treated very poorly for a number of years (I realized that's subjective). As time wore on, I felt very angry and I'd openly discuss my displeasure with my wife (eventually my ex-wife). I thought that I'd surely put the final nail in the coffin long before we were divorced.
A couple of weeks ago, she came to pick up our sons and she started spewing because the boys wanted to stay with me and she was very upset. At the end of her spew, she said, "And that's why I divorced you!" (That was a common thing for her to say to me, but I hadn't heard her say that for at least six months.) Anyway, my response was, "Thank you! You did me a favor." As soon as I said that, my ex-wife's jaw literally dropped. I've never seen her mouth open so wide.
Her jaw-dropping really took me by surprise. I thought I'd literally done everything a person could possibly do to tell someone "no way no day" will I ever get back together with you. I'm mind reading, but her jaw-dropping response indicates that she must've thought I still wanted her back, at least to some degree. I don't know.
I guess the point of my anecdote is that it's very difficult to know what someone else is really thinking. But, if you want your spouse to come back, or even if you don't, it's better to be cordial, as you suggest, rather than high conflict.
Hi doodler, Joseph,
It really is hard to know what's for the best, I do know that it's well known BS give up too soon some times and that R could be just round the corner. I suppose I'll naturally know when the time comes but in this moment I continue to do the best for me and my children and to some degree my WW IF she comes to her senses..!
I need to work on the MNG issues I have keep improving whilst GAL'ing and showing ALL a confident, happy individual who'll get through this. BUT when it comes to her coming back to talk I'll show her that she was wrong to put me back out there and regret her actions but NEVER burn that bridge as long as the boundaries are respected.
Thanks again.
Mark.
Hi all,
Finally got the boys back yesterday after 6 nights without them, this is the longest time I've been without them so was a really hard time for me.
When WW brought them around as usual we talked a little and naturally this was about the holiday they had just had. To cut a long story short I was given snippets of information I'd like to share.
WW stated she got herself in a "pickle" when she called her AP/LO by my name!
Referred to similar situations she had in this present holiday compared to the ones we used to have.
Mentioned something about a performer at the site she was staying at had the exact same name as me, funny this as the boys had no recollection of it!
And they all reminisced when a certain song was played at the park.
Now I'm not in the least suggesting anything regarding this has changed our situation but it was refreshing to hear. I did well in her knowing I'm working at detaching as I mentioned that I need her to change some visitation days around due to a social event and also when WW said she wanted the boys to FaceTime on Friday I basically let her know I wasn't home anyway.
I am now trying to act "as if" I know I'm going to be able to work this out, obviously not for her benefit just to let her see someone who is confident and capable to move on with his life but also in preparation of her eventually coming back.
Doesn't mean I'm not going to continue with the DR'ing as this is my way of life now but just be happy and carefree in her presence without any fear as to what is/will happen in the future.
Again will monitor the results and take what's useful.
[quote=parkema]Hi all,
Finally got the boys back yesterday after 6 nights without them, this is the longest time I've been without them so was a really hard time for me.
^^^sounds rough! Can you increase the GAL next time the boys are gone? How are your GAL doing?
When WW brought them around as usual we talked a little and naturally this was about the holiday they had just had. To cut a long story short I was given snippets of information I'd like to share.
WW stated she got herself in a "pickle" when she called her AP/LO by my name!
Referred to similar situations she had in this present holiday compared to the ones we used to have.
Mentioned something about a performer at the site she was staying at had the exact same name as me, funny this as the boys had no recollection of it!
And they all reminisced when a certain song was played at the park.
Now I'm not in the least suggesting anything regarding this has changed our situation but it was refreshing to hear.
protect yourself from reading into ^^^ these comments. While they're pleasant and probably true, they do not signify a seismic change in her, so please read nothing into them. For your sake.
OTOH it's good that she is able to converse with you pleasantly and that will probably reduce your stress. Just don't backslide from any detachment work you have done.
I did well in her knowing I'm working at detaching as I mentioned that I need her to change some visitation days around due to a social event and also when WW said she wanted the boys to FaceTime on Friday I basically let her know I wasn't home anyway.
good!
I am now trying to act "as if" I know I'm going to be able to work this out, obviously not for her benefit just to let her see someone who is confident and capable to move on with his life but also in preparation of her eventually coming back.
Detachment is not about preparing for HER to do anything. It's about YOU Living your life well, for you and your kids.
Please let that^^ sink in.
Doesn't mean I'm not going to continue with the DR'ing as this is my way of life now but just be happy and carefree in her presence without any fear as to what is/will happen in the future.
Just curious, what does DB mean to you? Why would you stop it, especially since you think the r with your wife is getting more civil?
A lot of folks think DBing means keep on trying to save your marriage, but many many times it means save yourself
and besides, I don't think anyone can save a marriage Without saving themselves.
I think we have to be happy and content in ourselves...in order to be fully present to love someone else.
Hang in there
Hi 25yearsmlc,
As usual thanks for your insight, I think I’m finally having my eyes opened.
Although I have been receiving these comments which are the most positive I’ve had in 6-months I still work on the premise that I don’t believe in anything they say and only so much in what they do but what made the change in her stance..?
I have been DR’ing or as I now look at it as working on myself for myself and feel what I’ve been doing is having some affect.
To be honest there was a step change once she came back from her week away with my boys and her AP/LO, maybe the guilt got to a point where she felt the need to “give me some points back” in a way to alleviate this. I also noticed that once I mentioned the specific date I needed her to clear her diary for a whole lot of interest started, the 3 W’s came up (where, what, with who) I of course stayed aloof and just said “nothing special”.
The following day AGAIN I was complimented with her saying “I looked good” her validating me..! I just brush it away and remember she’s on her way back to my house to sleep in my bed with her AP/LO so that soon dissipates.
The acting “as if” I know we are going to get back together is exactly that acting. Acting like this allows me to be happy and more relaxed when around her confident in the knowledge this is showing the best of me, I STILL understand I can do little to influence the eventual outcome BUT this is a method for me to show the world a better Mark proper DR’ing..?
I have now re-focused on my goals as they were more catered to her than me and the whole episode above does show that working on me is definitely the way forward.
• No pressure – can’t influence the outcome so why worry about it.
• More outgoing – show a more pleasant domineer NOT to my WW but to everyone. I think the goal could be for more people approaching me! I will monitor.
• Show a friendly individual who is over the worst and is concentrating on HIS future.
• Be the best dad in the world – obvious BUT also a strong head-turner for the WW’s.
All the above goals are now about me more than goals I can try and influence seeing in her as I feel doing the above will be noticed and be more positive either way.
Detaching is STILL very prevalent in my life now, I really couldn’t care if she comes around or not, in fact last week (when she was away with boys and AP/LO) I found I could relax even more knowing I wasn’t going to “bump” into her but not having the boys massively hurtful.
What does DR’ing mean to me? Ultimately trying to save my M what else..? Please understand I’m aware that people would suggest it’s about bettering yourself for whichever outcome happens BUT I feel MWD would ULTIMATELY suggest it’s about doing everything to save your M and more importantly making a better D proof M.
As you mention I now see that the best results I have had come from me looking after me BUT also I feel somewhere in there is changes in her A and the interaction with her AP/LO.
Mark.
Hi Mark
Interesting turn around from your W. I think I said the other day she would not be able to not compare the holiday with OM to experiences you shared.
Keep up the good work and do what you need to do for you and your boys.
SJ
Hi SJ,
Thanks for your response.
I’ve just caught up on your situation wanted to congratulate you, uncharted waters now and it'll be interesting to see how this pans out!
Caution must be the word here BUT who’s to say he’s not repentant? I have no advice except monitor carefully keep the GAL’ing up and refrain from the R conversations unless he initiates them, stay happy and confident in yourself but remain detached for the time being.
Another BD would be awful and I don’t want this for you so although very positive please be cautious.
Well done, keep it up.
Thanks Mark,
I thought having some control back would be better but at the moment I feel worse. I need to take some time out and regroup.
Stay positive.
SJ
hey Mark,
The suggestion I'm making when I say "save yourself" means to make yourself your priority b/c I the chance of YOU being happy, starts there
AND b/c it increases the chances of you becoming the most attractive partner possible. Lessens co-dependence.
So your course of action is the same, and helps you regardless of the outcome.
I don't want to project my situation onto yours, but it would be nuts if I didn't share any insights from the experience.
For ME, I see now that I spent far too much of my life staying/trying b/c of my h's potential as a h.
I was waiting for our m to return to what it had been in the past, AND OR what I hoped it would be down the road. I projected my own hopes & moral compass onto my h b/c I could not grasp the reality that he does NOT feel the same. He does not feel guilt or remorse - because if he does, it's not enough to make different choices.
My confusion stemmed from projecting MY own moral standards and emotions, onto someone who does Not share them, or who has justified following his own...
If YOU cannot imagine doing what your wife is doing, then her values and yours are not in alignment AND OR she has justified her choices and is enough at peace with them, to stay on her path.
Not to belabor the point but Your wife is in an overt affair in the marital home with the children openly exposed to it.
That's^^ a heck of a lot of betrayal. Her being civil is literally the least she can do.
Do you have an internal timeline for any legal action? I'm not telling you to have one, Some LBS folks find it useful to know that at some point in their lives, the limbo ends.
I chose my d1's high school graduation as my private deadline and it made my "purgatory" much easier knowing there was a light at the end of the tunnel. Helped my detachment too b/c I knew the nightmare was not eternal.
I knew I'd survive no matter what and that helped me a lot. Perhaps the detachment and GAL were triggers for my h or it's coincidental, but as that deadline approached (and I never shared it with anyone) h became more vocal about wanting to reconcile.
Later on if it becomes relevant, I'll share my "piecing" errors, but the reconciliation we had for 10 years, was due mostly to DBing.
Also, acting as if - is NOT about acting as if you know she will come back.
It's acting as if you know you'll be alright, no matter what SHE does...b/c you are in charge of your life and your happiness. This is very important to understand.
And faking it till you make it, means that acting confident in your own future can actually create the confidence & happiness in your life. There are TED Talk videos about this, sort of an "outside in" approach to behaviors/emotions, instead of the opposite. They DO outer behaviors and THEN feel inwardly, the emotions they need/want.
Amy Cuddy and Sean Achor have empirical data demonstrating the this in their youtube videos on creating change in your internal life by certain outward behaviors. Instead of what many people do which is to wait till they "Feel" a certain way and THEN they will "Act" on the emotion; this process is the reverse.
So again, acting as if is Not about what you expect HER to do, but on your awakening that you yourself are going to be fine, regardless of what SHE does.
Make sense?
Hi 25yearsmlc,
Thanks for your response.
As I thought the recent “positives” turned out to be nothing more than temperature checking as last night the pre-holiday WW returned. I could have called it a push-back but we’ve had nothing but civil exchanges for a long while.
“It's acting as if you know you'll be alright, no matter what SHE does...b/c you are in charge of your life and your happiness. This is very important to understand.”
^^^ Yes I know I need to get to this point but at the moment I’m still a little raw about my feelings regarding how she could have done this to my boys and I, I am getting there and with each day a little more callous builds up and I get more and more hardened to her. I’m getting better at being by myself and am faking my happiness in front of her hopefully this isn’t coming across as fake though.
Working on myself is beginning to have an effect and have had comments for others not just my WW so a win there!
As usual I re-visit my goals and would like your opinion of my most recent:
• Being more approachable – success measured by people coming up to me to talk.
• Being under less pressure – success would be for me to not feel I have to “win her back” in every interaction I need to remember I can’t control her actions.
• Being more carefree – success measured on how much MORE my WW would want to interact with me i.e. instead of staying in the driveway when coming to pick the boys up she would actually come in when invited.
25yearsmlc can I ask how you approached your interactions with your H? Do you have any regrets that you didn’t try everything to save him? If you had the chance again would you do anything different?
I’m a firm believer that people don’t leave something for something worse and it’s this that drives me to be her “safe place” and friend when we interact, I know this could lead to cake eating but I still have solid boundaries in place for certain situations.
Surely if our WS’s want to re-engage then we should take the opportunity to show them a person they feel can provide them with a better future than the one they are presently involved with?
Just my opinion…
Thanks again.
As usual I re-visit my goals and would like your opinion of my most recent:
• Being more approachable – success measured by people coming up to me to talk.
• Being under less pressure – success would be for me to not feel I have to “win her back” in every interaction I need to remember I can’t control her actions.
• Being more carefree – success measured on how much MORE my WW would want to interact with me i.e. instead of staying in the driveway when coming to pick the boys up she would actually come in when invited.
Mark,
I just want to start out by saying I think you are doing great considering the blatant disrespect your wife is showing you.
Having said that, IMO your goals and focus are still way to much on your W. Your W is in an open affair with the OM living in your house and you are worried about being a safe place for her to come back.
I can't stress this enough, she has to win you back!!!! The quicker you drop the rope and start to move on with your life the quicker she may realize what she will be missing out on.
You can't fake it either. She will feel it when you really are done.
Hi LH19,
Wow I thought my goals were more specific for me! Being more positive and outgoing (in general) , less pressured to worry about WW and our situation and such.
It amazes me how people perceive things differently. I feel sometimes I don’t explain myself well, I am detaching (can’t do more than leave the marital home and children) and don’t pursue at all BUT what I do do is show her this confident happy individual who is moving forward in the knowledge that whatever happens he’ll be okay.
Hopefully she will see the changes and start to wonder…
BUT I will not isolate her when she initiates a conversation, obviously I have boundaries (no talk about the A or her AP/LO) and no raised voices just someone who listens and validates her when I feel the time is right.
I will obviously never condone what she’s done and continues to do.
Thanks again.
Mark.
I’m a firm believer that people don’t leave something for something worse and it’s this that drives me to be her “safe place” and friend when we interact
The biggest flag for me here is "safe place". As LH19 said, with the level of disrespect you are being shown - and btw I am amazed at your fortitude in light of this - you most definitely cannot be her "safe place".
I know this is nuanced and you have your boundaries in place for certain things, but I think that she truly has to see you as being 'lost' to her. She has to gain respect for you and that will be hard if you are her safety net.
I think a good dosage of indifference and confident attitude which communicates you have 'dropped the rope' to her is important. She needs to see that.
The situation is more complex because she is still in your house with the kids and has not had to experience the consequences of her behaviour. Can you not reverse the roles and ask her to move out and get back in the house? I mean, it must be killing to see the OM in your house - like a full replacement.
Can't you turn the tables around on her? She can do what she wants with OM, but find her own place and do it there and you move back in?
Mark, regarding your W's softening position, that IS good news! Like 25 said you can't read too much into it, but like we're always saying here DB'ing is all about baby steps and those are baby steps. When you see baby steps like that then do celebrate it, but don't change your approach, just keep doing what you're doing. Nice work on the DB'ing
I agree with Maika 100%. You cannot be a safe place for your W. And uf you ask anyone on this board. The OM doesn't even compare to them before they made changes. Let alone the people they become after the change. That was the hardest thing for me to comprehend and understand. Why am I competing with someone who who on paper I am superior to? So get that thought process out your mind real quick.
Not sure how you allowed your W to get the house. And allow OM to move in. But you need to change that real quick if possible. Your making things way too easy. W needs to experience loss and consequence. OM is living it up at your expense.
Hello All,
I wish I could reverse the home situation but can't GB basically favours the mother/wife irrelevant of the circumstance's.
I tried to "outstay" her but the atmosphere was damaging to the boys so had to move out had no choice! I understand your thoughts on the safety net but just cant get my head around her wanting to come back to the M if I don't show her a better option but again what I'm doing is primary for me then her.
We cant control anything these people do so the AP/LO in my house again is something I couldn't stop from happening, I'm open to options from anyone..?
Always said that basically my hands are tied and just have to work on me and have faith that one of them comes to their senses.
Thanks again all.
Mark.
I understand your thoughts on the safety net but just cant get my head around her wanting to come back to the M if I don't show her a better option
I think you really need to work through this safety net mindset and drop it. If she sees you as the safety net - the familiar, the comfortable, the predictable - she will most likely keep disrespecting you.
Also, you cannot do anything to show her that you are the 'better option'. That has to come from her. She has to see it. You have no control. That's why DBing is about saving you and if the M is saved, then that is even better.
You want to keep the door open, and her to know that it is open - I get it as I was in that same place. I said it to her in different ways and actions, but it did not change any of her behavior. When I started to actually not care and show her that I can move on without her, that's when I have gotten the most reaction from her. I am in no way through my sitch, but just sharing from my relatively short experience.
Your focus on 'safety net' and 'better option' is all about her, and not you. You need to work through this.
I am sorry about the house situation. But as it can't be changed, you don't need to focus on it.
Sorry for being so straight forward, but I feel your pain coming through your posts and I am so sorry for what you're going through.
Maika,
I appreciate your comments, you're right of course I really need to let her go and look after me.
"What will be will be".
Thanks again and good luck in your sitch.
Mark.
Mark,
I am sorry if I missed this but what does "LO" stand for? Does it stand for "Limerance Other?" And why do you only refer to OM as "AP/LO" instead of just OM? I'm just curious. Could it be that you do not consider him or their A as a real R? Is it just too painful? I can't help but notice and wonder because I don't see this term in other threads. I also don't want your reasoning to prevent you from accepting the reality of their R and that it can, albeit unlikely, last for a long time. I know it's hard, but eventually it is something--and that she may never return to the M--that we want you to be able to wrap your head around.
Blu
[quote=Mark_P]Hello All,
I wish I could reverse the home situation but can't GB basically favours the mother/wife irrelevant of the circumstance's.
But this^^ is NOT about custody, it's about OM living in your marital home with your children, and you not.
I understand the stress you felt with her galavanting around out of the home with OM.
I really do.
Maybe detaching more and seeing an IC could have helped you cope - OR you staying in the home and her leaving (Did you ever discuss that with her?)
it is also about not exposing your kids to an OM in the home and acting like a replacement. Did you see a lawyer about this?
(Again, I am not referring to her getting custody but about OM in the marital home). Can you see a L now and explore your options?
I feel as if you assume the position of powerlessness and that concerns me.
I tried to "outstay" her but the atmosphere was damaging to the boys so had to move out had no choice!
Do you believe the present situation is actually better for the boys? It would confuse me.
I understand your thoughts on the safety net but just cant get my head around her wanting to come back to the M if I don't show her a better option but again what I'm doing is primary for me then her.
A LOT of this is hard to wrap our brains around. We project OUR feelings & values onto the WAS and figure this is what WE would need in order to return, but we are not them and they are not us.
We have to believe only what we see, Not what we wish for or once had or what they say...
The suggestion is not to be the worse option. It's to show her that her choices will cost her the marriage and that she is losing you. You are not giving her anything to miss by friending her.
No offense - but what you describe about being her friend, does not sound like a potential lover or mate for her to return to. It's more like a co-worker she can dump her workload on...Sorry
We cant control anything these people do so the AP/LO in my house again is something I couldn't stop from happening, I'm open to options from anyone..?
See a L for your actual options and do not assume a position of powerlessness -
and talk to an IC about how to deal with this. It has to be incredibly difficult. As much as we are all hurt, I think the sukkiest situations are when there are children around and an OM/OW involved. I feel for you.
Always said that basically my hands are tied and just have to work on me and have faith that one of them comes to their senses.
This ^^ is such a weak position. It does Not increase your chances of a reconciliation. I think that's what many posters are trying to say.
It's not about whether you should file for divorce, it's that your chances of a recon are lessened by this course. By being her friend and showing her that she can have her cake and eat it too, you enable her to live this way as long as she wants.
And if this affair does not last forever, why assume she'd return to you and not just find another man, again?
She knows she can have you around as a part time co-parent and flattering fan, AND she can have other lovers, even living in the house you are paying for.
I read an article from a WAH who left his first wife for OW.
He had an A and married the OW. A few years passed while his ex wife raised their kids mostly as a single mother. She did not date much for a few years.
He wrote that he saw her singleness as proof that he was better off with OW, b/c after all, his ex was obviously not very desirable if she was alone. He felt sure that if he wanted to return, she'd take him back.
When the kids were a bit older, she started to date. She met a man who treated her well and she loved him and married him. She was happy and she was at peace. He saw her and her new h treating each other well and finally saw that she was happy and loved.
ONLY THEN did the WAH realize he'd been a fool. Only then did he realize what he'd done, and what he had lost, the mother of his children and a great partner. He deeply hurt his family and he felt like crap...
Only when someone else wanted his ex, did he realize that he had not "won" anything.
To be clear, I'm NOT suggesting you use OW to date! I am saying you have given your wife nothing to miss...
And finally, I have to ask you a really hard question.
What do you believe your sons are learning about marriage and boundaries by being your wife's friend, and letting OM move into your home to "step parent" your kids and sleep in your bed, while you leave the home and live elsewhere?
Hey, I like that you are not acting with anger. And I don't think it's a spouses job to teach a WAS "a lesson" or give them the consequences that they've earned.
Life does that.
But you are actually preventing your w from learning a lesson or facing any consequences.
Hi BluWave,
Firstly thanks for taking time to read my posts appreciate it, basically to cover all odds! I know she has an AP and initially I saw all the signs that limerence happened in her (I’m sure all of us on these boards know the signs of limerence in their partner) so I see him as her AP/LO just letters.
I’m sorry but I know their relationship with go through stages it has to, deterioration is an act of nature and something god can’t stop and so it’s the same for relationships. Can I ask did your marriage or relationship deteriorate? Must have or you wouldn’t have found these boards.
I FULLY understand what they have is L BUT a short term kind based on the fantasy, now I’m not saying or have ever said that WW will one day wake up and say to herself “what the hell have I done” and run back to the M I understand the most likely result is they will carry on their A and live in as just a bad relationship as the one they feel they’ve left behind.
Unless they realise that they have a problem whatever it may be these problems will again manifest themselves in their new relationship hence the saying “wash-rinse-repeat”.
I’m telling everybody on these boards I’m fighting for my M as it’s the right thing to do for my children, me and to a degree my WW how I do this is by listening to people like you to guide me on a well-trodden path BUT being slightly “pig-headed” I will take what’s useful and discard the rest.
“I know it's hard, but eventually it is something--and that she may never return to the M--that we want you to be able to wrap your head around.”
^^^^ Yes you’re right hard to get my head around but assume will come with time, patience is a necessity as MWD would suggest, this knowledge and the fact that I’ve only just started on my journey can only get me to where inevitably I will be. I know I can’t control any of this and what I do I do for me and my boys BUT with the ultimate goal of having my loving wife back as this is the whole premise of this site is it not..?
Don’t get me wrong I will continue to DR and am starting to see some benefits in DTR which I intend to keep up and escalate BUT when I get the chance I will try and re-build that relationship with my wife through being consistently happy and confident acting as if I know everything is going to be okay and not isolate her when she needs me the most.
When her A deteriorates with time as it will I want to be in the best position to show her that she has made the biggest mistake of her life.
Thanks again.
Mark.
Thanks for your thoughtful answer! I have to say, for someone that has only been here a couple months, I am impressed at how much you are willing to think about things and your motivation to work hard at this without being derailed by emotions. If you read my sitch, you would know that I failed at this for a long time and I didn't even post after BD; perhaps I just couldn't endure the 2*4s like some of you brave people!
My post was initially me just wanting to know what "LO" stood for. The only thing I was able to find online was "Limerance Object." Is that how you are using it? I hear what you are saying about OM and the stages of limerance. Yes, you are correct that often Rs go through a period of deterioration. Mine certainly did and we were separated for 10 long months while he was with OW.
I have also spent my fair share of time demonizing OW. TBH, the more my H and I work on our piecing process, the more I can see that the A truly was a limerance R, a fantasy, one where he was trying to escape his life, and one where she did most of the initiating and pursuing. It doesn't however change the pain of the betrayal though because he still broke my heart and essentially turned my life upside down. It has been a tremendously difficult process to repair the damage and learn to love him again.
So I want to press you a little bit harder. I think the language we use is telling about our intentions. Referring to OM as Affair Person and Limerance Object in my POV dehumanizes him. I think my H's ex-OW (who mind you posed as a close friend for many years) has no moral compass, has a personality disorder, is pathetic, selfish, and a desperate wh-re. Guess what tho? She is still a human being and for whatever reason for that period of time, he still chose her.
I am concerned about two things for you. 1. that you are dehumanizing him and keeping this wall up to protect yourself emotionally. This is terribly painful and it is important at some point to accept this harsh reality and start the grieving process. I haven't seen this in any of your posts and I am concerned. 2. I think you are sure that their R will come to an end and you are focused on keeping yourself a better option in hopes she will eventually see it. I know others here have told you the same thing so I am sorry to repeat it. The 180s and GAL have got to be for you and you only. It's time to let go and live your life. I don't see that happening yet and I hope you can get there!
I think it's time to let go of her and start your grieving process. It has been said here that the M is dead and gone and we will never get it back. A small percentage of us will have a chance to have a new R with our spouse, but most won't. I have been very, very fortunate to have this opportunity. But I'll tell you this Mark, I was not keeping myself the better option, not at all. I don't think he was trying to leave the M, limerance or not, so he found his way back.
I think you are still focused on if and when her A comes to an end. Maybe she will think she "made the biggest mistake of her life,' but more likely she won't. It seems that most WWs do not return to the M and often used the A to exit the M. That appeared to very much be the case with my H's ex-OW. When my H left her and came back to me, she moved right on to OM2. I mean within a few weeks! Heck, we have some reasons to believe she was already involved with OM2. Now, 2 years later, I have heard she is getting M to OM2. None of it makes senses--her H was truly the prize over all these men; he is highly intelligent, attractive, a hard worker & provider, a great dad, and he is fun and funny! She didn't want to go back to the M, she was done when she left, and my (limited) opinion is that she is not willing and/or able to look at herself. Some people want to leave the past behind them and keep going for what is shiney and new. I sort of pity these people because her H and her had a beautiful family and home and she just cowardly ran to others to feel good about herself. The thing is tho, that even tho we all see that, it doesn't matter, she will do what she will do. And FYI her H DB'd his tail off--far better than I did--and she still never looked back. ... Now tho, he has the benefits of the hard work he put in and he has moved on.
I am sorry if this was all over the place. You don't have to give a lengthy response and dissect it. Plus, you are obviously very intelligent and convincing in your posts :-) Here is the thing tho, that doesn't help you and may be hurting you. Being right doesn't equal being happy. Let her go, Mark, please. And stop focusing on when the A dies and if she regrets it. That is her problem. You just start at square one and get really f-ing sad. Your W just kicked you to the curb and replaced you with some other man--it's awful and it's time to get sad and angry! I happen to think all the GAL and 180s will only take you so far if you haven't fully accepted the M is over first.
Blu
25yearsmlc,
I respect your views I truly do and maybe I do come across as the lonely dog barking into the mist waiting for my WW to re-appear but since I started on these boards I have listened and am adapting my views.
I continue to DR and will continue to throughout the rest of my life BUT only the part I feel is useful:
• Smart contact – I don’t go looking to communicate with my WW BUT when the opportunity arises I’m determined to show her the best me.
• Detachment – believe it or not I don’t care if I see her any more I can take it or leave it. Unfortunately we have had children together and so will always have interaction.
• Work on me – I’m in the best shape now since my military days and this is being noticed, I’m looking at where I failed in the MR Intimacy, emotional connection and Mr Nice Guy syndrome to say a few.
• GAL’ing – recently told WW I’m planning to be away on a day where I SHOULD have the kids and have asked her to change these days. Not being home when she comes around, not being able to answer the boy’s facetime calls due to not being in.
I’m sure the above is a good start…
I feel where I get the most 2x4’s is when I mention the following:
1. Being her safe place – if you see the response to BluWaves reply you’ll notice my thoughts on deterioration and also my views on the limerence effect (original post), I intend to show her a safe place when she needs it BUT due to me detaching this is few and far between.
2. Being her friend – again when SHE progresses this I’m not here now waiting to expect her to sit down each day and talk about any old thing IT JUST DOESN’T HAPPEN but with the eventual deterioration of their A she will possibly want someone to talk to hopefully she’ll remember that I am a good person/husband/father and someone she could rely on way in the past and come to me. This is where I feel the DR books content comes into its own.
Cake eating simply does not happen she’s not here and doesn’t want to be here, I suppose what I’m doing is future looking but am well aware that their A most likely will continue even when deterioration kicks in and the cracks start to appear as pride will stop her from doing the right thing.
But by working on myself, showing a confident happy carefree individual acting “as if” he knows everything is going to be okay will spark her interest again but also know this will ONLY happen under her timescale and need to be extremely patient but GAL’ing will definitely help with this.
Of course I’m in a weak position, she holds all the cards BUT this isn’t about me it’s about her and as you know there’s nothing I can do to affect that, all I can do is work on making me the best me I can. This I intend to do and then when that point in time comes and the effects of the A wears off a little I’m going to revert to doing everything I can to re-build our MR.
I do appreciate you wanting to keep me on the straight and narrow and would appreciate you keeping up with my posts as I can only benefit from your experience.
Thanks.
Mark.
Blu....that was an awesome post. I got a lot out of it. ty!
I agree entirely with Blu. Thank you for that post. The percentage of piecers is really small. We all have to realize this. We have to realize we don't control it. Both people need to go through their own journeys and most likely they do not end up joining together again.
2. Being her friend – again when SHE progresses this I’m not here now waiting to expect her to sit down each day and talk about any old thing IT JUST DOESN’T HAPPEN but with the eventual deterioration of their A she will possibly want someone to talk to hopefully she’ll remember that I am a good person/husband/father and someone she could rely on way in the past and come to me. This is where I feel the DR books content comes into its own.
What I've read during my sitch, most of the WWs do not go back to the M if their XH is like you are explaining here. Because that isn't attractive
at all. You will much more likely end up being a "gay boyfriend" who gets to listen to all the tears while she takes other men. Trust me on this, the successful cases with WWs are when the H has been more with a "f u b¤&%!" mentality (well, not directly like that, but you get the point
). Showing an attractive alpha male who doesn't care a crap about her. I mean, she DISRESPECTED you. You need to gain that respect back. Read TX's thread. That's EXACTLY how Tx was. YOUR W HAS TO WIN YOU BACK!!! It's not the other way around.
You are a valuable person and the world is full of women who would want you Mark. Stop keeping her in a pedestal - detach from yourself and look at the situation in 3rd person. Are you REALLY sure you even want a person like this back?! (you can use this mentality to "gain the respect back"). I am not in a similar situation (my XW is having an A/new R, but is not pushing it to my face and we have active D waiting period already) but I already realized that I'm not in love anymore - I'm just sad because I have LOST the CONTROL and I just FEAR the FUTURE. Are you sure you aren't in a similar situation?
Sorry about the 2x4 especially if it's wrong as I haven't read the entire sitch through. Not trying to sound mean or anything. I just fear that you don't see this and end up hurting yourself in the long-run.
Hi BluWave,
Again I appreciate your view.
“For whatever reason for that period of time, he still chose her.”
^^^^ Blu do you feel he chose HER or the fantasy? We were all in this fantasy at some point, the R was exiting and new and invigorating and this is perfectly natural. If the two are able to carry this on then a long term R will evolve due to no guilt or obligations that come if they are in a long term R or worse MR. Due to these the A tends to play out and fizzle away and one then sources RC with their BS OR look for their next fix! Possibly in most cases they simple carry on with the A and due to the BS giving in too soon D crops up and we are where we are.
I will ask you a question though…
What did you change that led you to piecing with your WH? Did he just come back or was it a mixture of DR’ing and a pleasant demeanour towards him? Do you think the best approach for RC is to have little if not no interaction? Sorry three questions but I see this as so counter-intuitive it screams ACCEPTANCE! Accept the MR is over and move on. NO I can’t do this YET maybe down the line but we aren’t even talking D and I need to know I did EVERYTHING to try and RC the MR. No contact with WW will IMHO says to her “look I’m not bothered about you carry on” and why wouldn’t she..? I can still DR I just want her to know that I’m still around!
“I am concerned about two things for you. 1. That you are dehumanizing him and keeping this wall up to protect yourself emotionally. This is terribly painful and it is important at some point to accept this harsh reality and start the grieving process. I haven't seen this in any of your posts and I am concerned. 2. I think you are sure that their R will come to an end and you are focused on keeping yourself a better option in hopes she will eventually see it. I know others here have told you the same thing so I am sorry to repeat it. The 180s and GAL have got to be for you and you only. It's time to let go and live your life. I don't see that happening yet and I hope you can get there!”
To be totally honest I don’t give him the time of day, he’s not worth it. Dehumanizing him! He doesn’t exist.
I don’t really see it has so much his fault but something that is fundamentally wrong in our MR R, again deterioration of our R led WW to the actions SHE did AP/LO was just in the right place at the right time.
Do you not think this won’t happen in her new A R?
I’m sorry but have MANY times stated the likely outcome to the end of limerence in her and am not suggesting for one second the most likely result will be a return to the MR.
I’m going to be slaughtered here but why not FIGHT for your MR? Why not continue to show her AND THE WORLD the very best version of Mark? Why not slow the whole process down?
In the beginning I would agree with you that I was blinkered into thinking this was some sort of temporary fling which she needed to get out of her system but as time goes on I am realising there is NOTHING I can do to affect her actions and so why bother! I do as you point out intend to DR and for a while know this is for my benefit but please keep hitting me with those 2x4’s.
Grieving for the end of my MR will not be seen here YET (although lots of tears have been shed) as I still intend to fight as this is the right thing to do.
Time will tell, No one knows the future and I’ll continue to present the best version of me whilst DR’ing my butt off.
Thanks Blu you help more than you know.
Mark.
What I've read during my sitch, most of the WWs do not go back to the M if their XH is like you are explaining here. Because that isn't attractive at all.
I completely agree with lcause and this seems to be a common mistake made by the LBH with a WW, and especially by the NGs! They seem to think that if they are nice, friendly, and safe that some day their WW will "wake up," "start seeing things clearly" or "come to their senses" and return to the M. THEY FALSELY THINK THIS MAKES THEM THE BETTER OPTION. I have been reading here for 3 plus years and I can't think of one example where that has happened. There is another poster--I think his name is Chris73--where he challenges the ideas around DB and attempts this friendly approach for some time. Unfortunately, it does not work. WWs do not respect being allowed to walk all over their H and then watching them try and nice them back into the M. It's not human nature to be attracted to someone that is weak and needy.
There are several vets that have been here and seen it all--Sandi, Cadet, Starsky, 25mlc, AnotherStander, to name a few--and there advice is invaluable! I know it is so hard to change the way you see your sitch, but the reality is that when anyone is in a crisis, they cannot see their sitch objectively, it's impossible, because there are emotions tied to it and the person is invested in the outcome. So Mark, please trust that the posters here are only telling you what they know to be true because they want to help you. They are telling you that the approach you are taking will not get you the outcome you desire. I am not a vet--I have been reading here just over 3 years--but I can share with you what worked in my sitch. I will also tell you that the advice here (a lot of which was too hard for me to take) was right on target.
Blu do you feel he chose HER or the fantasy?
I personally feel that he chose the fantasy. Why? Because that makes ME FEEL BETTER, and it makes it easier to forgive him. The reality tho is that it doesn't make a difference. He chose her and he chose the fantasy, but more so than that he left me and our M for a long time. He was physically gone from the M and our home for 10 months and he was engaging in some type of EA for about 8 months before that. Some here say that the A has to go out into the real world and die a natural death and according to you it eventually will. I think that is a fair assessment. As much as it hurts me to admit, limerance or not, he did think that he loved her, he did like how she made him feel about himself, and he did leave the M for her. If there is something that I want you to take away from my answer it would be that it is really not our position to ascribe meaning of the A for them and we really can't because we are not them. Also, it works against us because as we cloud the importance of reality, we prevent ourselves from experiencing it (the reality of our sitch) and the much needed grief that comes after acceptance. I think it is so painful that we put up a wall and then use words like--MLC, fog, alien, limerance, etc, because to us it feels less real that way. Not accepting what is really happening does not help us but serves to only make rationalizations for their behavior.
What did you change that led you to piecing with your WH? Did he just come back or was it a mixture of DR’ing and a pleasant demeanour towards him?
If you read my sitch you will see that I was the worst DBer (maybe in history); I came here and read every day and then couldn't seem to apply the principles. I was rarely, if ever, pleasant because I was furious and devastated! The way that I failed was that I showed him my most vulnerable self--if I was angry I lashed out, if I was sad/needy I told him, and I tried various methods of persuasion. It wouldn't work, I would feel ashamed, and then I would go back to stonewalling him and punishing him. He would send me emails about the kids and their weekend together and I would ignore him. I played hard on his guilty conscious because I knew he was suffering being a cheater and a classic NG. I mean I could go on and on.
I finally got to a point where I realized I was only torturing myself. Even though I was getting better and better at "following the rules," 180s, and GAL, I was doing it to show him and not to feel better and move on without him. People are very, very intuitive and I am sure he sensed the change. I allowed myself to accept that I am simply too good to be waiting around for someone that could cheat and walk out on their family. Basically I found my balls (or whatever women find. lol) I finally dropped the rope--and I mean let go--and he somehow immediately noticed.
Simultaneously, their A was fizzling out. The reality of the A was not what he wanted. Way too much to write about here! So the combo of the limerance (or whatever) wearing out and me finally dropping the rope, had a huge impact on him and he did a sharp 180, ended the A, and practically begged me to take him back. ... Here is the part that kinda svcks for you guys tho; I don;t think it was anything I did or could control that brought him back. I think he would have come back anyhow. We have pretty much talked about everything in the last 2.5 years and this guy was hurting, confused, a suffocated and desperate NG who had no idea how to navigate a long M with kids, and he bailed, but in his heart he really always wanted his M and family back.
Here is what I do think would have made a difference in my sitch: if I had known about DB before BD. If I had read the book, been reading here, been following the rules, the 180s, the GAL, for me tho, etc, BEFORE this happened, I honestly don't think he would have ever left and I don't think he would have taken their original A (EA with makeout sessions in the park) to a full on R. My lack of being able to DB from the get-go definitely drove him to run from me and to her.
Do you think the best approach for RC is to have little if not no interaction?
I don't know. I can see it both ways and there are some here that say that sharing kids is a benefit because it forces more interactions and therefore there are more opportunities to show them your changes. That doesn't make sense to me because having kids and having to share that for me made things all the more painful. Also, if the goal is to make the changes for us and not them, them that shouldn't really matter right? So I don't think their is an easy answer to that.
I am not going to bore you and go on and on and on, but Mark, reading the rest of your post breaks my heart. As suspected you have not accepted your reality. One of dearest friends was so brutally honest with my post-BD and it HURT SO, SO MUCH, but now, years later I can tell you that it is what I needed to hear. So Mark, my dear, I am so sorry but I am going to hit you with some truth darts and I do so with love, because we are all brothers and sisters here. I want you to move forward and I want you to start healing, and I only think you can start that if you see the truth:
OM is a real person and your W has left you for him. It is terrible, but it has happened. She may never leave OM and if some day she does, she most likely will not come back to the M. Your M as you knew it is dead, gone, over, and is history. You deserve a W that loves you and respects you. The only person now that can save you, is YOU. You do this by deciding that you deserve better than her and you start to create a life without her and without focus on her. You accept that she will never even think about coming back to you, or even looking over her shoulder, until she sees a man that is strong and knows his worth. Your worthy of better than her, Mark. Mark is a man that is too good to wait and to try and be friends with her. A man that knows his worth does not want to be friends with a woman (not any woman but a WIFE) that lies, cheats, and gives up on her family. Can you accept this?
Mark, I want you to get angry. I want you to allow the sadness in! Please do not postpone your process any longer by not accepting your reality. Then, and only then, can you start to heal.
Blu
Blu,
Can you elaborate more on your thoughts with kids? I find that it is harder to not be some what friends with the W since we have so many activities together with the kids. From a co-parenting standpoint and helping our kids get through it. Does that make sense? Any advice on how you can find the right balance? As you note above there are more opportunities to show your changes. Thanks!
I don't understand why you think cutting contact implies acceptance of the affair.
To my mind, continuing to be friendly sends a much stronger message of accepting her behavior.
Think about it. People disown family members or drop friends because they object to their behavior. It's a pretty strong pattern.
How is staying friends fighting for your marriage? It seems like it would make you less attractive, which would be bad for your marriage.
Maybe I'm not correctly picturing what you mean by staying friendly. Can you share a scenario and give us the friendly and the non-friendly response? It's possible I'm just getting tripped up on terms.
Hi Parkema
I haven't read through your sitch thoroughly, so forgive me if I misunderstand something. I don't have any advice to give per se about your relationship with WW, but I wanted to offer an observation I've felt before when browsing your sitch.
I recognise a lot of the language you use - LO, fighting a year after you want to give up etc. It makes me think we've been tracing the same path. From your posts I am guessing you dipped into a few other programmes, one based in Nashville, for eg, and another which claims to have a 90% success rate and is basically centred on pursuit...?
I am a fixer, in a big way, and when my WH left, I went into fix-it over drive. I did a comprehensive survey of all the programmes out there. Basically I bought everything, starting with the pursuit programme. There were a couple of others that didn't click with me and I never really took to their material. When I read your posts I see bit and bobs from each of these programmes in there. I may be wrong of course, so I apologise if I am because the next part of my post is based on this assumption.
These are my thoughts:
All these programmes basically say the same thing - pick yourself off the floor, stop with the hysteria, work on yourself. There necessarily is differentiation in the product, so one programme will say pursuit will wear down the WS, whereas others will say pursuit is to be avoided at all costs. Some advise being the 'safe place' aka 'staying friends', another will say no contact is the only way to go. Each programme will critique the techniques used somewhere else.
Fixers are looking for a magic formula. There isn't one that exists that can be applied to all our individual situations, not down to the T anyway.
I think of it as tribalism. Here at the DB tribe, there is a certain philosophy about how to behave with a WW. Another tribe will advise differently. In addition to the 'safe place' tribe, and 'love them into returning' tribe, I've also observed the 'Chump nation' tribe and the 'standing/faith based' tribe. Each tribe has it's own philosophy.
I think the problem for you (and me) is that we don't belong to any one tribe per se. We've tried to settle in each one but for some reason not one single one is a complete fit. I am guessing this is what you're going through because even though you quote from other programmes/tribes, you're still posting in this tribe's forum, where you will not find widespread support for other tribes' stances.
I too, am very confused about my tribe identity, but every day I get a bit clearer. I've learned that I must listen to myself first, and not so much others, which is in part the reason why I stopped posting on my own sitch. I've tried all the approaches from the different tribes, and they didn't sit very well, so I came off as forced and false. More importantly, I felt terrible. I didn't have peace, I was always second guessing myself, I didn't feel like ME. Don't get me wrong - there are nuggets of gold in each philosophy, and I have learned something from every programme.
I am still finding my way. In my mind, this is my cocoon time. Values I hadn't considered for many years, about marriage, identity, love, life etc, I am examining now. In a way, I am in a period of metamorphosis. When I emerge, eventually, from this identity cocoon, I think my values will be locked in place and these values will ultimately tell me which tribe I belong to. I am describing this because I feel this may be something that you may wish to consider as being helpful to do. It's very difficult to go through this experience having one tribe identity, let alone multiple - it's confusing and one will inevitably come into conflict with another.
Of course this is not meant to mean that you should stop posting here until you've declared yourself to be a true blue flag waving DB-ing tribe member. I have found, in myself, that when challenged, your deep seated values come to the fore. So it may be that the 2x4s you get here will be instrumental in deciding which path you wish to take.
Park
I dont' want to beat a dead horse. To clarify my post to you, which you really deflected from,
is that I don't believe you are enhancing your chances of a recon on the path you have taken. I think you are hurting the small chances that exist.
You seem to think I'm saying "give up", but I'm not. I am suggesting you change your course of action.
It happens to be the same course of action you'd take if you really were to move on.
That is why I think it's wiser than hanging on and denying what has happened to your family.
When my h and I recon 10 years ago, it was partly due to my DB efforts I THINK---
if not for DBing I would have filed for divorce and h would either have done the work needed or we'd never have recon.
As it turns out, I absolutely mistook reconciliation as the goal, rather than a vital step towards a renewed marriage.
Can you check on some of the other questions I asked in my post?
Oh, and Keep posting.
Blu, you are my hero. Mark, read her posts. There aren't many and you will quickly figure out what a rock star you have in your corner.
Blu,
Definitely some good stuff you posted. Believe I will try to apply some of that to my own sitch.
Hello All,
Blimey I need to invest in a crash helmet or better dodge those 2x4’s LOL.
Of course I see here the “working on you for you” mantra and understand why WE do it please understand I am DR’ing I am doing the LRT and as best I can DTR!
Each situation is different we really have to live them to truly understand each other’s course of action. I’m unfortunately a logical person which doesn’t bode well with A as this especially for women is almost always based on emotion, I also feel that me being in this logical mindset has had an impact in my MR as the emotional me didn’t come to the table very often and defiantly aided in the AP/LO gaining a foothold on WW.
Coming back to those 2x4’s I feel I’m not explaining myself too well!
I understand that I can’t control her actions and how she feels about the AP/LO she’s going to do what she likes! Do I wait around for her to find her way back? Well yes BUT whilst I am I’m moving forward, what I mean by this is to GAL and look after myself and kids don’t ever focus on them or try to mind read as this will only set me back and hit the PMA.
I find myself planning more (logical) on what I will be doing in the next month, taking a couple of days away to hike all the trails in the UK, watching the what you call soccer with my mates and of course taking the kids out and generally have fun with them.
NC – I don’t see it as no contact more as pointed out to me elsewhere “smart contact”, I don’t and NEVER WILL pursue her I don’t text, email or call her AT ALL EVER. I feel the “smart” part is to show her when we have face-to-face a person disinterested in what she’s doing because I’m too busy to care, but my demeanour remains friendly and I try to emit that place where she feels is safe. Will this aid in her seeing what we had wasn’t all that bad..?
Again SHE will initiate these interactions as I’m not bothered either way.
Detachment – We have children, we want to see our children all the time! I can’t and won’t punish my boys for what their mum has done to their dad so I have to relent here and allow them to see each other even when the schedule shows they are to be with me. We must bare in mind that it has gone from 17:00 – sending them to school the next day to her spending 10 – 15 minutes every 3-days and facetiming the rest of the time. The other 3-days when she has them stay with her she just picks them up from me! A matter of 2-3 minutes and a cordial “are you okay”.
MNG - I understand only too well the utter contempt and lack of respect my WW has towards me it has risen from her a couple of times and is in some respect quite predictable BUT no more. I now take her to one side and say “what you have just done I don’t appreciate especially in front of the kids, please don’t do it again plus its sooo unattractive”. As you can imagine these episodes are becoming very infrequent.
I think I’m getting confused when I say I feel this site is ACCEPTING the inevitable and working to galvanise us for the worst BUT the methods really do seem to me to push the WW away! The premise here is that we take no notice of the A and this has the best chance of RC IF we work on ourselves have no contact and move on without any interaction well guess what I’m doing all of this.
I feel the mantra I should adopt is “life goes on” and it does I see this and can tell all that as this thing carries on it is getting easier to cope with don’t get me wrong I L my W and I really do want to get to the point where RC will happen BUT I’m also not stupid enough to think not working on me and sitting this thing out will be the best practice.
Being civil and having a pleasant demeanour towards her isn’t a crime it might smack cake eating but having read a lot on these boards what I mean by this is to show her the best me, a confident happy carefree individual getting on with his life knowing whatever happens life goes on.
Thanks as usual.
Mark.
Mark, are you there? You said to bring on the 2*4s so I just did what I was told :-)
Thank you, guys, I appreciate it. I owe all of you so much because as I said I read here every day after BD and it was my personal daily support system!
2016, I honestly don't know about other programs, and I never looked at them. My H's ex-OW's H (now XH) who was also a friend told me about the MWD's site/books and it all made sense. I can say that if I had had this material (and the strength to follow through) at the time when he dropped his bomb on me, I don't think he would have left at all.
Mark, speaking of my H's ex-OW's XH (can I just call him my friend now?) like I said, he nailed DB. In some ways you remind me of him. He is highly intelligent, logical thinker who does all the research, a problem solver, and he can win any debate! I on the other hand am intuitive, emotional, and reactive (not only that, but hopefully I make my point). Well post-BD when our S's decided to run off with each other, we sort of went through this process together. I didn't post here, but relied on his frequent support and 2*4s. I would call him beside myself and he would tell me in his own words to not contact H, to focus on me and the kids, and guide me away from reacting on my emotions. Meanwhile he was out 180/GAL like the best of them.
He also took a very strategic approach to his DBing. When I read your posts and the way you have organized and listed your strategies, I know could have really benefited from some 2*4s from you! In fact, I would say you have it together more than a lot of posters when they first come here.
The reason I feel so inclined to post to you is not because I see that you are doing anything wrong, not at all! It is because I am seeing your logical brain take over the drivers seat and I am concerned you are not facing the emotional process. We have to also accept the painful reality and allow ourselves the many emotions that come with this betrayal (that part I totally nailed it). Do you have an IC to help you navigate the grief process? I think once you can do this, you can be much more successful at detaching, dropping the rope, and it will boost your confidence to realize you really are too good for this treatment!
Also, we all agree here that your only shot at her ever second guessing herself is when she sees that she has lost you ...
Blu
Of course I’m in a weak position, she holds all the cards BUT this isn’t about me it’s about her
EPIC FAIL!!!!!!! Mark Mark Mark. You were doing so well! At least it seemed like it. Now you are right back to that same old pathetic, sad, weak position we tried to shake you out of months ago. You are right back to "outlasting limerence". THIS IS NOT ALL ABOUT HER. It is all about YOU. Get out. Get a life. Let her go. Burn your purse and find your balls brother. Quit flopping yourself onto her porch to be the world's biggest doormat.
all I can do is work on making me the best me I can. This I intend to do and then when that point in time comes and the effects of the A wears off a little I’m going to revert to doing everything I can to re-build our MR.
Yes to the first part. No to the second part. Quit waiting around. Move forward with your life. She'll never want to come back until she sees an awesome stud that DOESN'T CARE about whether she comes back or not.
Also, we all agree here that your only shot at her ever second guessing herself is when she sees that she has lost you ...
Blu,
The only thing I can't figure out, is that now that I'm in my post-apocalyptic DB mode, all of the manly-manliness that I created during DB doesn't seem to payoff. I belch manliness. I fart manliness. I strut when I walk, but it doesn't seem to be enough.
What I've been doing is this: I'll run up to I hot babe that I think I might like and I yell, "I'm done; it's over! I never want to see you again." And then I'll walk away. Not one of them has chased after me. None of them have even expressed any interest in me. What am I doing wrong? Should I try Old Spice products? I'm beside myself.
AntherStander,
Just in case you think I'm one those creepy stalkers, I was working on my last post before you posted. For real. I'm not that creepy. Although I do like you a lot. But it's not what you think. Well, maybe just a little.
And now that I have bothered to read what the others have said, I offer a hearty "amen"! Especially to 25 and Blu, that's some awesome stuff!
Just in case you think I'm one those creepy stalkers, I was working on my last post before you posted. For real. I'm not that creepy. Although I do like you a lot. But it's not what you think. Well, maybe just a little.
It's OK brother, I'm used to it. You can't exude super studly stud pheromones without picking up some male interest along the way too
AS,
Again I’m being misquoted or I’m really not that good at explaining myself. Her A is TOTALLY about her I had no influence in her crossing the line, I never went up and introduced AP/LO to her she did all the work this is what I mean.
I can’t change anything in my situation with HER I can change ME but for anything to change regarding my MR and RC then she holds all the cards. Please be assured you’ve taught me well I understand all about the begging, pleading and the whiney stance which to so unattractive, GONE LONG AGO.
“Move forward with your life. She'll never want to come back until she sees an awesome stud that DOESN'T CARE about whether she comes back or not.”
^^^^ Totally agree and working towards it, am having some minor success so am finally finding something that is working will keep this up.
Still DR’ing.
Still detaching
Still NC
Still GAL
^^^^ as best I can.
AS keep swinging at me I appreciate it.
AS,
Again I’m being misquoted or I’m really not that good at explaining myself. Her A is TOTALLY about her I had no influence in her crossing the line, I never went up and introduced AP/LO to her she did all the work this is what I mean.
I can’t change anything in my situation with HER I can change ME but for anything to change regarding my MR and RC then she holds all the cards. Please be assured you’ve taught me well I understand all about the begging, pleading and the whiney stance which to so unattractive, GONE LONG AGO.
“Move forward with your life. She'll never want to come back until she sees an awesome stud that DOESN'T CARE about whether she comes back or not.”
^^^^ Totally agree and working towards it, am having some minor success so am finally finding something that is working will keep this up.
Still DR’ing.
Still detaching
Still NC
Still GAL
^^^^ as best I can.
AS keep swinging at me I appreciate it.
The only thing I can't figure out, is that now that I'm in my post-apocalyptic DB mode, all of the manly-manliness that I created during DB doesn't seem to payoff. I belch manliness. I fart manliness. I strut when I walk, but it doesn't seem to be enough.
doodler,
Do you want it to payoff?
doodler,
Do you want it to payoff?
Are you making me an offer?
okay....well, back to Park's thread
you have said repeatedly that you "get" what we are saying BUT...and then your next clause undermines the first.
I think you get acting as if, which is a big thing.
imo, you are choosing to allow your w and OM into your home with your children - at your expense.
I'm no expert but I'm familiar enough with GB's laws to know that ^^^ is not a mandatory situation.
Maybe you are afraid to assert yourself b/c you associate that (& boundaries) with being a jerk.
Have you discussed this unusual arrangement with a lawyer? (Not the custody, the living arrangement)...
And do you understand that while we would love to see you and your w reconcile, most of us believe you are
more likely to reconcile, by letting her go?
Letting her go is not = giving up.
Hi 25yearsmlc,
I thank you for driving me towards making their R more difficult and agree I am making her life that much more easier BUT I have in the back of my mind my two sons faces and what they looked like when these conversations about the marital home/bed came about. I won’t put them through that again.
Trust me there is nothing more I would like than to restrict the exposure of the AP/LO and my kids but again my WW wants the exact opposite and without me restricting the exposure to her then I can’t stop the exposure to him, does that make sense?
I’m sure all would agree the children should be protected first and foremost.
As time goes by I am getting more and more hardened towards her which is helping me DTR and focus more on my future and that of the boys, any conversations are cordial and brief but (and this is where I feel I’m being mistaken) I will continue to show her the best me whilst being civil (won’t say friendly any more) and show a place where she knows she won’t be berated as long as she respects my boundaries.
I can’t control any of this rollercoaster she’s on and I’m not buying a ticket as out there are better "rides" to experience, ones that are more worthy of me.
25yearsmlc – thanks for keeping an eye on me I do try and take on board what the “vets” suggest.
Appreciate it.
Mark.
Mark,
As long as she thinks she can get you back easily, she won't come back. This is why we all are concerned about your strategy. Women are REALLY good at testing men and it's a really small percentage of men who have developed a natural ability to notice these. As long as you stay attached (this is what I got from her not getting berated), you ARE going to fail these potentially appearing tests. When you are fine either way, you will pass these.
She needs to know that in order to get you back, she needs to kiss the ground you are walking on. Again, read TXHubby's thread. That's how you deal with a WW.
Hi lcause,
I do understand what you’re saying but I’m always going to have interaction with my WW. As you know we have children together and there will always be the swap-over of responsibilities, I would suggest I’m being mistaken in just how “friendly” I am being here.
Would you prescribe in a cold-shoulder approach or stonewalling? I keep the conversation short kids/logistics related BUT civil. I never mention anything R related or waste my time even thinking about her A, we must bare in mind this woman was my best friend 8-months ago we did everything together but now its business like for me short concise and over within minutes.
I feel the GAL’ing being shown is where she’s seeing Mark moving on and it’s here I intend to escalate but because I’m enjoying it not for any "other" ulterior motive.
Thanks again.
Mark.
I'm not an expert so take these with a grain of salt. However I've read a lot of sitches from here and other forums during my own sitch and I've noticed (and a lot of others have stated too) a pattern/typical script with WWs.
I do understand what you’re saying but I’m always going to have interaction with my WW. As you know we have children together and there will always be the swap-over of responsibilities, I would suggest I’m being mistaken in just how “friendly” I am being here.
It is possible we are all misinterpreting you. However, I still somehow get the feeling you don't completely understand it and I see others agreeing with me
Would you prescribe in a cold-shoulder approach or stonewalling? I keep the conversation short kids/logistics related BUT civil. I never mention anything R related or waste my time even thinking about her A, we must bare in mind this woman was my best friend 8-months ago we did everything together but now its business like for me short concise and over within minutes.
I mean keep it civil but indifferent. No matter what she says, you have to show you are the emotionally stronger one. There can be so subtle cues that until you have really accepted it and are ok either way, you will fail all of these. This requires the true detachment people are talking about. In this state, you don't have to think about how you act towards her or think that you are showing a "safe place". Because you act naturally without any subconscious feelings.
Realize this: love is more a CHOICE than a feeling. Attraction is feeling and you can't really choose who you become attracted to. You CHOOSE to be and live with someone you become attracted to. You nurture it and keep the bond strong. You can be attracted to someone but have so much emotional burden inside you towards the person that you don't want to be with them and love them. You can build up an R from the ground up and love will follow.
So, even if you have moved FORWARD (not moved ON) with your life and are ok to be single or even with a future with someone else, it doesn't mean you have completely given up on your marriage and you can DECIDE to build a new R if the opportunity presents itself.
As counter-intuitive as it is, this is the best strategy for you now. It both saves YOU and has the best chance of getting your WW back.
I feel the GAL’ing being shown is where she’s seeing Mark moving on and it’s here I intend to escalate but because I’m enjoying it not for any "other" ulterior motive.
Showing GAL isn't enough, at least with WWs. You need the detachment. If she has any feelings towards returning, she will test you. I can guarantee that for you. And if you break/show signs that you are still there for her, she most likely won't return.
It pains me to read the sitches where the LBS has tried to nice the WW back in only to have to listen to her troubles with the OM or see the WW bounce to the next guy. Being a doormat is the worst thing you can do for your own sanity.
we must bare in mind this woman was my best friend 8-months ago we did everything together.
Mark, again I want to say I think you are doing great in so many areas. See here is the thing best friends don't betray one another like your wife did. They also don't have full blown affairs on a whim. She probably wasn't happy for months but more likely years. IMO she is taking the easy way out because marriage is hard work.
With time and distance you will come too see this and she will slowly come down from the pedestal in your mind.
BTW I think your a fuching great Dad and your kids will always be closer to you.
Stay strong my friend!
Hi Mark
As you know my H did a complete about turn on Sunday just gone and I haven't been on the board as trying to get private computer time with him and 2 kids in the house isn't easy. What I did, and I like to think it contributed to his complete change of heart if not made it completely was remove myself as his safe place completely. He has told me that even when with her and in the throws of it all there were many times when he wanted to call me or text me about something but couldn't because I wasn't available to him even as a friend any more. The holiday he had with OW made him realise he would have much rather been on holiday with me as I am his best friend or me and the kids.
I'm not trying to hijack but I think you have been far to nice and accommodating with her and you need to get out there and not treat her with contempt but do exactly as you say, kids and logistics of the kids and finances if required and that's it, keep it business like. But also and most importantly get out there and do things for you even if it's just visiting a friend. My H thought I was out partying regularly but really I was at friends houses some of the time, still having fun, sometimes talking about him and sitch and sometimes upset but he didn't know that and again he said it was killing him not knowing where I was, what I was doing or who with.
Take care
SJ
Mark, maybe look at it this way. I think it's fair to say that everything you've done up until now has not worked as far as bringing your W back. I don't think you've really seen any baby steps at all from her, correct? So in DB'ing parlance of "keep doing what works and don't do what doesn't work", enough time has passed to where you need to try something different. I think what a lot of us would like to see happen is for you to get sick and tired of your sitch and get angry enough to make some big changes. Honestly I am right there with 25, I would love for you to just go reclaim your damned house and tell your W that if she doesn't like it, tough crap. Tell her you're done seeing her act like a tramp in front of your kids, disrespecting herself and their father in the home that YOU helped create and you're not going to deal with it anymore, and if she doesn't like it then here's the number of your lawyer. We keep saying you can't "nice her back" and you keep saying you're not being nice to her, just cordial. But the very fact you're letting her carry on like this is classic nice guy syndrome doormat stuff, and it's not attractive.
I'm not saying to switch from being a nice guy to an ahole, I'm just saying stand up for yourself. She's trampled on you long enough!
Mark,
It's time to step up and stop being the nice guy. Right now, I am pretty sure they are getting a good laugh at your expense. WS don't appreciate you leaving and allowing them to have the home.
Mark
I think we all understand your position. I really do. I just don't agree with it.
I have never seen a married man/father leave his own home and children, continue to pay for it AND with OM living in it with his kids still there.
And if you check, you 'll see that I've been around here awhile.
The baby steps you think you have seen are that your w is more civil with you.
To me, that's not really a baby step towards you - That's her getting comfy with the situation.
Is there a part of you that thinks you deserved this? I'm asking.
Hi 25yearsmlc,
Cannot do anything about the home situation as again she can be forced out. We can live together again BUT not living that nightmare again for me or the boys.
Thanks.
Parkema,
Move back into the home. You are making this way to comfortable for your W. Get OM out of there. If W wants to be with OM bad enough, then she can move in with him. What was so bad about you two being in the same home?
Hi 25yearsmlc,
I thank you for driving me towards making their R more difficult and agree I am making her life that much more easier BUT I have in the back of my mind my two sons faces and what they looked like when these conversations about the marital home/bed came about. I won’t put them through that again.
What life lessons do you suppose your sons are taking from "mommy got rid of our old daddy, and our new daddy moved in?"
Mark, your W had got to be the queen of cake-eating- she gets the family home, her sons, her OM and you paying her bills. You've got to assume your M is dead for at least as long as this continues. So let me ask you, what is your game plan moving forward? I am sure you don't want to continue down this path indefinitely, so what can you do differently?
Mark, how are you doing man?
Looks like Mark disappeared from the forum. Very interesting reading as my sitch and timeline are similar with some differences (living arrangement, W hiding OM from D11). It struck me we've been together the same number of years and W is 9 years younger than me (we both are a couple of years younger than you guys). Just wanted to see from vets and others if I should start my own thread to get their advice or is it OK to continue on this one? Also, how do you add "below the line" info?
Painful,
I think you should start your own thread. I hope Mark will come back and continue posting. I guess it must be difficult to come here looking for support when your life is in turmoil, you're trying your best from your own perspective, and all you get is a constant 2x4 hammering (we all mean well but I understand why it can be tough to be on the recieving end).
Go to My stuff, edit profile and fill out the signature section at the bottom.
Mark, please update. Please explain to us again why you can't stay in the martial home (was it financial reasons?). And also I'm a bit confused by some of the lastest comments from others. OM doesn't actually live in the house, does he?
Mark,
I saw you posted in someone else's thread recently so i know you're around. I am guessing you're upset with the 2x4s about the house situation. I know it probably came across as very harsh, but with everything you know about DBing, you know that the house situation is pretty bad in your sitch in terms of your W feeling any loss and feel the consequences for her actions.
Just come back and post. If the house situation is truly unsolvable as you have mentioned, what are some things you can do moving forward? I would still push what others have said - can you not move back in and tell her to find a new place and do whatever she's doing with OM?
Have you consulted a L about this? It's your matrimonial home so you must have some rights about it.
Everybody here cares and we want to help you in your sitch. Don't lose hope - not just yet. Come back and talk to us.
Looks like Mark disappeared from the forum. Very interesting reading as my sitch and timeline are similar with some differences (living arrangement, W hiding OM from D11). It struck me we've been together the same number of years and W is 9 years younger than me (we both are a couple of years younger than you guys). Just wanted to see from vets and others if I should start my own thread to get their advice or is it OK to continue on this one? Also, how do you add "below the line" info?
Absolutely get your own thread so advice is tailored to you. When I first came here I didn't know how, and I ended up hijacking other people's unintentionally.
It is way easier to help advise you on your own thread. Are you pretty comfortable with that now?
Hey Mark!!!
Sending out a flare again. How are you man? What's going on with you?
Hello All,
Been away for a while I seemed to have been missed! I appreciate your concerns unfortunately I’m still here.
Quick catch up – basically not much has changed except for me GALing more, I’m now actively spending time away from home and the boys overnight which is a massive 180 for me my life was centred around WW and them. Today again I’m away which is impacting the normality we have fallen into and WW is starting to ask questions.
With all what’s going on she’s adamant I’m seeing another woman and when she dropped the boys off today before going to work asked what I was doing, I remained aloof but was pushed to answer! I told her what I was doing (hiking the peak district) but didn’t deny or confirm that another person was involved also. When she was leaving she said “she a lucky woman” again I didn’t raise to the comment and remained aloof, can I ask the forums views on whether to continue to let her wonder about another woman OR come out and deny there’s any other person involved?
Don’t get me wrong I’m nowhere near ready to start another R as I’m still deeply involved in trying to save my MR. I feel her A is beginning to evolve into some kind of regularity and normality and the excitement that was driving it is waning slightly, she’s still deeply in the “fog” but her interest in what I’m doing is growing.
I’m doing all the above as I see now that no matter what I do to bring her back to the marriage I can’t do anything to change her attitude so might as well enjoy myself and GAL. I continue to show a happy, confident brilliant dad but one now that is no longer obsessed in what his WW and the AP/LO are doing.
Again thanks for the continued support I appreciate it.
Mark.
again I didn’t raise to the comment and remained aloof, can I ask the forums views on whether to continue to let her wonder about another woman OR come out and deny there’s any other person involved?
Mark,
I'd let her wonder. So don't confirm or deny anything. It seems that sometimes when facing the risk of actually losing the LBS, they snap out of it. Or at least, shake them up a bit. Not saying that yours nessesarily will, but her being in the dark certainly won't have a negative impact on your sitch. If she asks more specifically who you're hiking with etc., just say "just a friend" or "no one you know"
Keep doing those GAL's. Her interest in what your are up to, might mean nothing or they might do. But GAL'ing will certainly help YOU stop thinking about her actions.
Hey Mark!
Great to hear an update from you. I really like the 180 you're doing and seems to have piqued W's interest - but enough about her.
I agree with Btrow, you don't need to give her any intel about anything - she needs to see losing you. At this point, vague answers are the best. I like the attitude of enjoying yourself and GAL - it's truly the best.
Keep posting.
if if IF you are really pressed, you can say you "cannot confirm or deny"
but really, who is she to demand information from you?
If she says "She's a lucky woman" she is baiting you or affirming herself for being so gracious.
I'd do an (internal) eye roll. So now she wants to know about the job opening for the job she resigned from?
I remained aloof but was pushed to answer! I told her what I was doing (hiking the peak district) but didn’t deny or confirm that another person was involved also.
What do you mean you were "pushed to answer"? You know you don't answer to her anymore, right? She's in your house gallivanting around with OM, why in the world do you think you owe her a thing?? Just flat out tell her "what I do with my personal time is my business and I would appreciate it if you would quit asking as I do not feel comfortable discussing my private life with you." Period, end of story. You're still being too nice to her I think.
not to quibble with AS b/c his answer is fine.
I'd just shorten it to the last sentence and be all happy about it.
(You know, What's not to be happy about?)
If you are the prize, act like it. But not for her, b/c she's not competing for the prize now.
Hello All,
Just keep posting.
It would seem everything has settled down into some kind of normality, WW and I are basically no more now than two people who just happened to have children together her focus is totally on her needs and that of her AP/LO.
I am happier now than I have been since the BD, GAL’ing and realising this situation is totally controlled by her is helping me move forwards.
I’m beginning to understand there is little I can do to influence the outcome so why bother she’ll either stay in the fog or come out of it, I feel planning for the future (not years ahead but weeks) keeps my PMA up I can start to plan days out with the boys knowing I have them and then GAL’ing for myself when I don’t.
Totally dropping the rope is unfortunately not an option for me due to both needs to be a part of our children’s lives we must all realise the time we’re NOT with our children can never be given back and I don’t intend to be half a father allowing someone else influence their upbringing. I would love to totally separate from WW but the situation does not allow this as we need to DOPU kids every day and will always be a time where there is face-to-face.
Our interactions are now very much business like always civil and fleeting, this is becoming the norm and I’m slowly getting accustomed to this type of R a shame really after 12-years of us being each other’s BF. It never ceases to amaze me how a WW can so quickly see their BS as nothing more than a hindrance in their lives but this is classical phase 2 of the limerent process.
Anyway what’s working –?
1. Detachment – face-to-face can now be measured in minutes not hours per week.
2. NC – absolutely no contact from me and will be no contact from me unless in case of emergencies.
3. GAL – hiking the peak district last week was great, I forget the beauty UK has within its shores also challenging.
4. 180 – staying away from home overnight, NEVER did this when together (well once but that was a stag due) this is having a major impact in her thinking. WW feels there is now someone else in my life which is completely untrue I love my WW and MR and those vows I said still mean a great deal to me.
5. Exercise – great as an anti-depressant can’t state this enough.
I feel I’ve had a bit of an epiphany where I now realise that this is my life for the foreseeable future, I’ve been give the worst experience in my life by the same person who gave me the best and is something I have to live with but the time will be used to better myself and CONTINUE to fight for what’s right trying to RC and bring my family back together it’s just that now I can face the inevitable knowing I continue to do everything in my power to succeed but will be okay either way.
I will keep posting IF something interesting crops up and will also stalk the boards and comment if I feel I’m worthy.
Thanks.
Mark.
Mark,
I'm right there with you. We are in the same boat. With all the GALing I'm doing, my wife thinks there is another woman as well. I'm going to keep GALing and detaching hard. I will be in the best shape of my life. I will place doubt in her mind. I have been 180ing like crazy. I can't control the outcome, but I will control my outlook and she will see the best me ever.
And if your wife thinks there's another woman like mines, that mean they are taking notice, the things we are doing are having some impact.
Parkema,
The same person he gave us the best is now indeed treating us the worse. I highly agree with this. My W and I were best friends. And now I have lost both. It hurts, but this was based on her actions. She has become someone that I wouldn't take a second look at.
I am happier now than I have been since the BD, GAL’ing and realising this situation is totally controlled by her is helping me move forwards.
Good, sounds like you are adjusting to your "new normal". I hated when the therapist would say that to me (that I needed to find my "new normal"), but with the benefit of hindsight I really understand the importance of it. It's human nature to fight change, we want the status quo. When we're slammed with BD we want to go back to "normal". But no matter whether we recon or not, the old normal is gone and we've got to find our "new normal".
I feel I’ve had a bit of an epiphany where I now realise that this is my life for the foreseeable future, I’ve been give the worst experience in my life by the same person who gave me the best and is something I have to live with but the time will be used to better myself and CONTINUE to fight for what’s right trying to RC and bring my family back together it’s just that now I can face the inevitable knowing I continue to do everything in my power to succeed but will be okay either way.
Awesome, that's a great attitude to have about it!
Hello All,
As I said I’d post if something worth mentioning came up…
Last night in the UK we were having to deal with a minor storm ourselves with 70mph winds and such (I hope all those caught in the situation in Florida/Miami are okay) My youngest S8 is quite susceptible to these events and cried for his mum who basically stayed with him and comforted him until he went back to sleep. In the past he would have come and got between us both and I would have taken him back to bed when he fell back to sleep but now due to AP/LO he doesn’t do that and mum goes to him.
Today I found out about this through a phone call from WW, to cut a long story short it is my turn to have my boys tonight and the next 2 BUT WW insinuated she will keep S8 with her due to him being upset and “wanted his mum”, I basically suggested I could comfort S8 just has well as WW and feel she is again undermining me by not respecting my capabilities.
I stayed civil throughout and validated some points with her but stood my ground regarding being able to manage these situations when I have the boys just as well as she. I mentioned I understood that he may want his mum but in the long run this is detrimental to the R with all as I mentioned the need to keep things stable and that we are getting to a point where we (boys and I) are in a happy place after much upset and felt it wrong of her to upset that just because SHE feels it’s what S8 wants.
Your thoughts…
Mark.
You did good, Mark. Her belittleing your skils as a parent should not be tolerated.
I get why SHE feels what is best for the kids, but it is a new world now. What Mark feels is equally important now. The kids has to learn to turn to daddy also, when they are scared or upset. Daddy also need to show the kids that he is capable of taking care of them during any type of situation. So just stand tall.
Not to go back hammering you based on your previous safe-friend-behavoir, but she needs to respect you (also as a parent). Start earning that respect.
Hello All,
Coming thick and fast!
Current situation – Been detaching much better, come to the point where I finally understand what’s going to happen is going to happen irrelevant of what I do.
Doing better at 180’s with me on occasions being away from home overnight, something unheard of unless we were all together doing it.
Last night WW came to see the boys as usual but this time earlier than normal, I was still busy making dinner for the boys and I so was not prepared to disappear as I would normally do. I remained in the kitchen whilst WW and the boys spent time together in the sitting room, I made the best of it and shut the doors so that they could carry on as if I wasn’t there.
Eventually WW came to me and asked about a future date where I again was staying away overnight and where there was a need for us to change the arrangements with the boys, me being me have a spreadsheet of all the days where WW and I have agreed custody with a printout stuck to one of the cupboard doors in the kitchen. WW referenced this and discussed the 4-nights she’s having away with AP/LO and that she “really doesn’t want to go” due to being away from the boys for so long. The talk then moved onto the following week which I’ve booked leave so that I can be with the boys on their mid-term break.
Again the last two days I have decided to GAL and do this overnight which sparked her interest in what I was doing and who with! “Is she nice?” “Will the boys like her?” These are the questions I faced, I basically said “I have nothing to tell you” but could see this is on her mind.
Once she knew she was going to get no information from me the conversation turned towards the predictable D talk, I again mentioned that I could not and would not stop her from filing but would not do this myself. I can’t remember how but I recall a comment she said AFTER this conversation where she said “I can’t go back to the MR after what I’ve done to you” I remained calm and confident and just evaded the comment knowing she was temperature checking me.
I know I shouldn’t but after she left I asked S10 about the situation at home and whether AP/LO was always there, he mentioned that he was there a lot but not all the time. I find this strange as the FM is open house to him and her to carry on their A but this is not forthcoming.
What I’ve come to realise through this is that even if we end up D there will still be these episodes to contend with as we’ll always have some sort of R due to the boys. I also realise that RC cannot be at all possible due to the circumstances of the A, basically a co-worker who she sees every day, her jobs is what she’s dreamed of and would never give it up so contact with him is guaranteed but at least this is aiding in me realising that my future lies elsewhere and makes acceptance of the fact all the more easier.
Mark.
“I can’t go back to the MR after what I’ve done to you”
What a strange thing to say. How about "you'll never take me back after..." or "we can never recover from what I have done". It almost sounds as if she believe you would take her back with open arms.
So she only with him now because "she can't go back"? We will never understand the WW/WAW mindset, that's for sure.
Keep up the good work, you seem to be moving forward. I don't quite seem to get your visitation schedule though. Do the boys travel back and forth several times per week? And if so, are you both sure it is the best option for them? I get why she thinks she will miss them if she does not see them for 4 days, but you will get used to it. I don't see my kids for a full week, but after a couple of months it just becomes "normal".
The co-working situation. Don't worry about it. I'm sure that would be solved should the both of you want to R at some point. But keep living your life as if she'd never come back. That's the only way forward.
Hi Btrow,
I feel she’s slightly narcissistic in that she must feel she deserves to have the A or anything else she wants! We basically have our boy’s 3-days each per week alternating the 7th day, I wanted a week each but she “couldn’t be away from the boys for that long”.
As for having her back with open arms I feel I’m showing her through my actions that that boat’s left port but do feel the 180’s and detachment coupled with my realisation that it will be EXTREMELY difficult to RC is emitting an atmosphere where she’s now picking up I’ve finally let go.
No plan B no turning back – done.
We’ll see what tomorrow brings but eventually it's getting easier and time is a great healer, I’ll continue what I’m doing as you quite rightly mention its what’s best for me. Finally some peace…
Thanks.
Mark
Current situation – Been detaching much better, come to the point where I finally understand what’s going to happen is going to happen irrelevant of what I do.
Once she knew she was going to get no information from me the conversation turned towards the predictable D talk, I again mentioned that I could not and would not stop her from filing but would not do this myself. I can’t remember how but I recall a comment she said AFTER this conversation where she said “I can’t go back to the MR after what I’ve done to you” I remained calm and confident and just evaded the comment knowing she was temperature checking me.
Mark,
That's a big one. When I realized there was nothing I could do to change my sitch total detachment was not far behind.
Great awareness of the big time temp check. She wanted you to say "no honey we can overcome this and put it behind us".
Be careful with the mind reading on how often the OM is at the house. Blending two families is difficult and they are probably just settling into needing time apart.
Your doing great and are going to be fine either way!
What I am learning at the moment from the mindfulness stuff is that the mind has to "learn" to get to that state of acceptance (through the way it processes thoughts) and I guess this applies to everyone's sitch and being at piece with the current situation. Well, I never thought a year ago I would be typing stuff like that. So good on you Mark!
Hello All,
Feeling down tonight, WW turn to have the boys for the weekend but we do each have them for a few hours.
After just said goodbye to the boys once WW picked them up I was called about half an hour later by her TELLING me that she will keep the boys until a certain time on Wednesday, I did everything wrong. It is hard for me to let go of the boys when I know where they're going and DR'ing went straight out of the window and I let her have it.
I feel this was due because she TOLD me what was going to happen even when it's my turn to have them! I couldn't help but vent and it didn't go well.
I later text her saying I was sorry and why it happened to no response but feel totally s#!t am surprised how hard this has affected me after all the good work I'd been doing lately.
Help! How do I move forward?
Feeling lost Mark.
Well, the classic "get up, dust yourself off, move forward" comes to mind.
You are allowed to be frustrated when she walks all over you. In fact, you should be. Don't let minor slip ups set you back just make sure all your venting to her is regarding the visitation schedule and the boys wellbeing.. And about that, do you not have a written agreement that she is legally bound to respect?
When I made the schedule for my girls, (which I made 100 % without any input from XW who had nothing to add), every little thing was considered so we didn't have to argue (well we still do, but I just refer to the agreement and end of discussion). XW thought she could wrap me around her little finger for eternity. She is finally, 10 months later, starting to get it.
Get something in writing Mark, is my advice to you.
Mark,
It may be time for some legal advice to ensure this doesn't happen again.
I know this is tough but I promise it does get better.
Hi Both,
We have no contract between us regarding visitation of the boys just a rota I outlined in a previous post.
What I’m doing basically is trying not to escalate anything regarding legal matters (divorce, financial or the children) for the time being as I am quite obviously standing for my MR. It has only been 9-months since the BD and 7-months since we separated, I have a timescale on when I will look at the above but feel it’s too soon yet.
Instead I intend to forget about her and the A and just get on with my life, GAL and enjoy the time I have with my boys. I feel the episode last night was more down to respect and her lack of it than anything else and a combination of me holding everything in for this period of time. I must learn to vent here and not on the phone to WW!
I was surprised how I felt after this happened, I felt like it set me back 5-months and all the good work I had done was for nothing. I have to look for the baby steps and improvement for example I was out overnight again this Saturday and again when WW dropped the boys off to me on the Sunday she asked “was it a night in town last night?” Why would she be interested in what I’m doing?
Again this weekend I intend to hike the Yorkshire dales (great this time of year) and again be away overnight, this has meant a change to who have the boys and what started the “conversation” yesterday.
Still haven’t let go to my surprise but will keep trying. Back to basics…
Thanks.
Mark.
Hello All,
Could I ask all your thoughts on reminding the WS there is a continued hope in RC the MR from the BS and they remain open to working on making the MR better than before?
Do you feel there comes a time when this would be a good thing to do?
Mark.
Mark,
I can only give you my thoughts on it. Please see below:
I will never pursue or bring up our MR to my W ever again unless she starts the conversation first. She would have to make the first move and when I get weak, thinking about breaking down, I always remember her speech to me when she first BD. I don't love you, I am not attracted to you......etc. I won't put myself in that position again to feel weak and give her some control over me.
Mark,
That advice from Mark is perfect. Don't pursue, let W come to you with anything involving the relationship. It's up to her to pursue you at this point.
Hi both,
I feel this'll be the stance everyone on the boards will take on the subject, I mentioned that I would continue to fight for the marriage VERY early in the A so am sure she knows my feelings regarding this.
Just recently I've been so successful at GAL'ing there maybe a thought that I DON'T WANT TO RC but am possibly just mind reading.
Thanks again.
After just said goodbye to the boys once WW picked them up I was called about half an hour later by her TELLING me that she will keep the boys until a certain time on Wednesday, I did everything wrong.
Mark, it's really hard to say whether you overreacted or not based on the little info you provided, was she telling you she was keeping the boys a few extra minutes, hours or an extra day or what? Was it inconveniencing you in some way or was it no big deal, but you blew up over it due to your frustration over your whole situation? I suspect it's the latter.
This is coming from someone that has been doing kid exchanges for 5 years- personally my stance on visitation is you have got to be flexible. You are BOTH going to have times where something comes up and you need to shift things around a little, or a lot. My XW and I have traded around pickup times, days and even entire weeks due to work schedules, vacation plans, etc.
If you take a hard line on handoffs then it will probably end up biting you in the butt later.
Help! How do I move forward?
Remove your feelings from the equation. Let me tell you, there are going to be PLENTY of times where your XW is rude or indifferent towards you. My XW still flips back and forth, one week she'll be pouring her heart out to me and the next week she's the Ice Princess all over again. SO WHAT. That's her problem, not mine. That's got to be your attitude. Handle these conversations with your W like you would a business transaction.
Just recently I've been so successful at GAL'ing there maybe a thought that I DON'T WANT TO RC but am possibly just mind reading.
All LBSs think that. Most will temperature check because of it, and they all get slapped right back down when they do.
This is coming from someone that has been doing kid exchanges for 5 years- personally my stance on visitation is you have got to be flexible. You are BOTH going to have times where something comes up and you need to shift things around a little, or a lot. My XW and I have traded around pickup times, days and even entire weeks due to work schedules, vacation plans, etc.
If you take a hard line on handoffs then it will probably end up biting you in the butt later.
OH H3LL YES! I completely agree. I think remaining flexible with the visitation schedule is very good for the children. If nothing else, it allows the children to have some control over their lives. And, I think it's important for the children to know that the parents will entertain reasonable requests and not just brush them aside and treat them like objects.
Mark, it's really hard to say whether you overreacted or not based on the little info you provided, was she telling you she was keeping the boys a few extra minutes, hours or an extra day or what? Was it inconveniencing you in some way or was it no big deal, but you blew up over it due to your frustration over your whole situation? I suspect it's the latter.
I'm sure he tried to explain that she was supposed to have them for the weekend only and then decided to keep them for several more days. Not politely asking but insisting/demanding. I find it rude. And I get why that sort of behavioir frustrates Mark. He appears to have been more friendly towards her than most others toward their cheating exes, and being stomped on a little bit more is the reward.
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