RECAP: BD in late April, 2017. Did some wrong things for about a month then started DB'ing for about another month. W said she wanted a D on 7-13 and her L filed 4 days later. I suspect OM, but W says he's just a friend. We've told the kids, which opened up a lot of emotions that I thought I'd gotten past. D looms on the horizon and seems inevitable. I've dropped the rope. I'm kind of stuck processing the reality of the sitch.
holding,
In your recap you didn't mention that you're an @ss kicking DB machine.
Thanks, doodler! I needed a little pick me up! You're always good for that.
Feeling kind of meh today. I just wish this would all be over. I want to get on with my life.
It used to be that I was so filled with hope at the beginning after BD. I call this immediate post-BD phase "re-limerance" - I would have probably done anything to get W back in the first two weeks. I wanted her back so bad, and I'd go crazy with happiness when she threw me the smallest bone. But over time the hope receded, as the bones got fewer and fewer, and now there's just a small part of me (like 1%) that occasionally asks "what if". I want that part to shut up. I need to learn to just ignore it. I think if I keep feeding that small part, it'll go on "holding" me back.
What's so hard about all this is that one of my issues in the MR was being emotionally closed off. After BD I did my fair share of soul searching, like we all do, and realized there was a whole emotional side of me that I want to develop and nurture. But now I can't do that with W. I've been doing it with friends, and I've been doing it with my kids, but it's not the same. I want that deep connection that comes from a R with someone special. I wonder if this makes me co-dependent.
Maybe there's just a hole in my heart that needs to be filled. Looks like I have a lot of growing to do.
It used to be that I was so filled with hope at the beginning after BD. I call this immediate post-BD phase "re-limerance" - I would have probably done anything to get W back in the first two weeks. I wanted her back so bad, and I'd go crazy with happiness when she threw me the smallest bone. But over time the hope receded, as the bones got fewer and fewer, and now there's just a small part of me (like 1%) that occasionally asks "what if". I want that part to shut up. I need to learn to just ignore it. I think if I keep feeding that small part, it'll go on "holding" me back.
What's so hard about all this is that one of my issues in the MR was being emotionally closed off. After BD I did my fair share of soul searching, like we all do, and realized there was a whole emotional side of me that I want to develop and nurture. But now I can't do that with W. I've been doing it with friends, and I've been doing it with my kids, but it's not the same. I want that deep connection that comes from a R with someone special. I wonder if this makes me co-dependent.
Maybe there's just a hole in my heart that needs to be filled. Looks like I have a lot of growing to do.
Holding, I could have wrote this exact same post verbatim! Some days I do have hope that she will come out of her fog and realize what she is doing and who she is hurting but it doesn't look like that will happen. So we need to keep working on GAL for us and not them, it has become everything I am about right now, my WW is starting to notice as my kids have informed me of her curiosity. Co-dependency, of course married couples are co-dependent with children involved how could they not be, the way my life was with my children and their activities WW and I were always going in different directions on most nights and some weekends, it was the life we chose. Now I am completely comfortable doing anything on my own and with my children, everyday has been easier for me to detach from her. Keep it up!
Thanks, dusty! Yeah, the parallels are frightening. If my W were to come out of the fog at this point, I'm not sure I would believe it. So I'm now being held back by this feeling that is basically irrational.
Yesterday W and I talked on the phone for about 45 minutes (longest in a while), mostly about settling some financial issues since she now has a separate checking account and refuses to participate in the joint checking account. We accomplished a lot. I got a little bit of a pity party from her, with her saying how she wouldn't be able to afford to have her hair done for a few months, since money would be so tight for her.
At the end of the conversation (she always pounces at the end), things took a turn:
W: Is there anything you want to talk about?
Me: No.
W: I'm sorry. (pause) I keep saying I'm sorry. I feel like I'm always the one apologizing.
Me: Do you think I haven't already apologized for my part in this? (hint: I did - profusely - after BD and the following 2 weeks)
W: No. You have. (She's starting to sound emotional and may be crying.) Nobody wants this.
Me: If nobody wants this, then why is it happening?
W: I just can't do this any more. (long pause) How are you doing?
Me: I'm fine.
W: Okay. You know, I still have you listed as my emergency contact for my Europe trip. Is that okay?
Me: Yeah, sure.
W: Promise me you won't let me die over there if something happens.
Me: (pause) Okay, I promise.
We said bye and the call ended.
I bet some people will say that I should have told her I didn't want to be her emergency contact. I think that would have been too harsh. She is a fellow human after all, and my children's mother.
I saw my IC yesterday, and told her how I thought this exchange and the accompanying pity party was just W's way of manipulating me. IC suggested that it may not be manipulation, but maybe just W's way of grieving and sorting out the end of the marriage. IC suggested that W may be going through the phases of grief herself and that this may be the bargaining phase for her. I don't know.
holding
I think you did fine in your exchange with you wife, at least you have that! We don't have much communication at all right now, she probably thinks...... doesn't matter, who knows what she's thinking at this stage! lol As far as the emergency contact, my wife would have me listed as well and I wouldn't' have a problem, she is still my wife until she's not and the mother of my kids! If she get's in trouble god forbid, of course you come to her aid.
You're doing completely fine holding--and I'm glad you're exploring your emotional and vulnerable side with your friends and kids. One of the ways I've changed through this process is that there's not much left (if anything) that I'm ashamed of or embarrassed by, so if someone asks or I want to talk about something I just lay it out and let the cards fall where they may. It's made all my relationships more authentic.
You will feel a void, and you will feel a lot of internal pressure to fill the void. For many men post divorce you tend to go a little crazy and overdo the dating and rush to get into a relationship. I could caution you not to do that but really it wouldn't matter, some things you need to go through for yourself.
Codependence specifically means that you have blurred the lines between your sense of self and W. Is that really what you mean or have you just come to be comfortable in a marriage relationship? Those are two different things.
Take this time and feel all of it. If you smash down your feelings you'll just need to deal with them later. Surrender to it and go with it and you'll come out the other side fine.
If you read what you wrote about W's behavior in the marriage it doesn't paint a very flattering picture. What was it about YOU that sought a woman who behaved that way, and how will you deal with yourself such that you don't seek it again?
Acc
I call this immediate post-BD phase "re-limerance" - I would have probably done anything to get W back in the first two weeks.
Hahaha! Yes that's a clever way of putting it! Except after BD it's strictly one-way limerence, one party is all-in and the other is all-out. Such a cruel twist!
What's so hard about all this is that one of my issues in the MR was being emotionally closed off. After BD I did my fair share of soul searching, like we all do, and realized there was a whole emotional side of me that I want to develop and nurture. But now I can't do that with W. I've been doing it with friends, and I've been doing it with my kids, but it's not the same. I want that deep connection that comes from a R with someone special. I wonder if this makes me co-dependent.
Well, yes, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I mean that's part of what marriage is, it's surrendering "self" to some extent and becoming part of a team. It is normal to be dependent on each other to some extent in marriage. I felt like XW and I had that down just right, we each had our separate hobbies and activities and gave each other time for them, but we came together as a family other times. It was a good balance.
You will have that deep connection again I am sure. But first you need to really find yourself. Take time to adjust to a new, independent life first. It starts out scary, but in time you come to accept it, then to really enjoy it. You'll get to the point where you might -want- a special lady in your life, but you won't -need- her. That's when you know you're ready for a relationship again.
At the end of the conversation (she always pounces at the end), things took a turn
You might consider just trying to cut it off before it goes there. Such as:
W: Is there anything you want to talk about?
Me: No. Have a nice evening <click>
I mean if she "always pounces at the end" then just be the first to hang up. You should be doing that anyway. Don't linger on the phone with a WAS!
W: No. You have. (She's starting to sound emotional and may be crying.) Nobody wants this.
Me: If nobody wants this, then why is it happening?
Next time (if you don't hang up) try validating- "I'm sure this has been very difficult for you, I'm sorry you're struggling so much." Your response is too confrontational, it says "this is what YOU want wife! It is NOT what I want!" And I think you know that. Sometimes it's hard to stop ourselves!
I bet some people will say that I should have told her I didn't want to be her emergency contact.
I don't see any harm in that. The rest of your convo sounded just fine really.
Thanks for the support, guys!
Dusty, this is really the only substantial conversation I've had with my wife since I informed her of my L. Finances and kids are the only reasons I'll talk with her. Sometimes I think she tries to find excuses to talk. Hmmm...
Codependence specifically means that you have blurred the lines between your sense of self and W. Is that really what you mean or have you just come to be comfortable in a marriage relationship? Those are two different things.
Maybe I don't mean it to that degree. But I guess I looked to my W to fill my emotional needs and feel complete. I certainly had a sense of self, but I really didn't have too many friends or interests outside of the family. I always gave of myself for W and kids and never really thought about my own needs.
If you read what you wrote about W's behavior in the marriage it doesn't paint a very flattering picture. What was it about YOU that sought a woman who behaved that way, and how will you deal with yourself such that you don't seek it again?
I always had a low self esteem, and I suppose I was thrilled that W wanted me. And I didn't want to rock the boat with my negative emotions. Classic NGS stuff. So now I'm working on my own needs, seeing what I want out of life. That's actually been pretty hard for me - to figure out what makes me happy. But I think I'm getting there.
W: No. You have. (She's starting to sound emotional and may be crying.) Nobody wants this.
Me: If nobody wants this, then why is it happening?
Next time (if you don't hang up) try validating- "I'm sure this has been very difficult for you, I'm sorry you're struggling so much." Your response is too confrontational, it says "this is what YOU want wife! It is NOT what I want!" And I think you know that. Sometimes it's hard to stop ourselves!
Yeah, very true. I could have handled that better. Thanks for pointing out the validation opportunity. I'm not always good at picking those up.
More craziness yesterday from the W.
I thought we had resolved the financial issue, but she went off the rails based on a few texts I sent her (questions about details), and took on a really nasty tone with me. I eventually had to call her to say we really needed to talk this through and get it resolved. So we agreed to talk in the evening.
When we did talk later, she was full of snide comments, snapping at me and trying to provoke me. She mentioned me "hacking" into her phone a few times, and made comments about how I don't trust her at all ("I'm not screwing you over, Holding") since I wanted to double check the numbers for the finances. I told her that her behavior wasn't helping our situation, but in retrospect I realize I should have just walked out the room. We eventually resolved it and agreed on the finances.
Later in the night she came into my room (the MBR) and said we needed to work on our communication. I thought that was ironic. She says I've been horrible to her, and it's caused her to react badly to me (when what I've really been doing is just not talking to her or looking at her). She said we have to find a way to get along better if we're going to live in the same house until the D is final. She told me she has at least 2 panic attacks a week.
She tried to talk about other stuff (time splitting with the kids, selling the house), and I said I wasn't ready to talk about it. When she corners me in my room, it's honestly hard to end the conversation. I suppose I can just get up and go in another room. I need to work on that. Any suggestions on other ways I can end these conversations at home?
I was looking at my tablet and not giving her my full attention, so she eventually got up and walked out. In the doorway she turned around and told me good night, and I didn't respond, still looking at my tablet. Telling me good night was weird, considering she hasn't said that to me in about 3 weeks.
It seems like W is desperate to get me to interact with her. It's almost like W is trying to engineer ways to get me to talk to her. Not text or email, but real conversation, either on the phone or face to face. It's like she thinks any attention she gets from me, even negative attention, is a good thing.
Meh, maybe too much mind reading on my part. She probably just wants to soften me up for the D.
holding,
If it's any consolation, my wife (now XW) became so nutty and entitled that she actually screwed herself over on mediation day. It's difficult to deal with the irrational comments and behavior, but you may find that the craziness can present opportunities as well.
Thanks, doodler. Hopefully I can make it through the craziness to get to those opportunities.
Just feeling sort of down today. Home alone, and random things are triggering emotions. This would be SO MUCH easier without kids. I wonder if living in this house would be healthy for me post-D, even though it may be in the best interest of my boys.
The selfishness and detachment of W is just staggering. None of this makes sense. I still don't have a good grip on why this is happening. I keep cooking up mental scenarios that might explain it, and I realize it's not healthy for me.
Made some progress later in the day yesterday by getting out the house and seeing a movie. Though I went by myself, I had a good time. Being comfortable in my own skin, without having someone else around, is a goal of mine.
But I wonder if I'm running from my emotions. Should I just stay at home and have a moping day so I can get it out of my system?
Last night I was watching Game of Thrones in the living room, and W unexpectedly came to join me since she can't watch it in her room. I agreed to rewind it a bit so she could watch it. But I just felt uncomfortable through the whole thing. The banter about the show was much less than last time, but she did make a few comments that I minimally responded to. My stomach actually started hurting halfway through. That usually doesn't happen to me, and I wonder if my body was trying to tell me to cut the cr*p and stop torturing myself. At the end of the episode she said she would be watching it next weekend in the living room, and I could watch it with her if I wanted.
I think this coming weekend I'll try to go skydiving again. I think I need to step up the GAL and get my head straightened out.
But I wonder if I'm running from my emotions. Should I just stay at home and have a moping day so I can get it out of my system?
For me moping around does absolutely no good, as much as I try to get out and do things this emotion runs in my head from time to time. When this occurs I just put on some music and go on a walk, that usually does it.
I think this coming weekend I'll try to go skydiving again. I think I need to step up the GAL and get my head straightened out.
Why the skydiving, why jump out of a perfectly good aircraft?? I don't get it. I would much rather have a one man water balloon fight than go skydiving! lol. To each is own, have fun, be safe.
But I wonder if I'm running from my emotions. Should I just stay at home and have a moping day so I can get it out of my system?
holding,
I think one of the biggest issues for the LBS is the never-ending rumination. I think that's one of the reasons GAL is so important. If you can keep your mind focused on other things, you'll feel much better.
I did a lot of home improvement projects. On the weekends, if my sons weren't around, I'd work from dawn until dusk. On weekdays, I'd work from the time I got home until it was dark. There was a huge payoff; I felt good about myself, I increased the value of my house, and I learned a lot of new skills.
I've continued doing the projects because they're so rewarding. I just built a coffee table from some rough-cut cedar that I had leftover from another project. It has cast iron legs that I bought at Hobby Lobby (for half price). The coffee table was inexpensive and fun to build and it's unique and one-of-a-kind. What could be better?
I could go on-and-on, but you get the idea...
Holding, I agree with Dusty and Doodler on GAL versus being all depressed at home. The answer is always GET OUT! Anything to take your mind off your sitch. I mean yes, you do want to grieve and get that through your system so don't fight the grief. But from my personal experience, sitting at home just made the grief so much worse. When I got out and did stuff I was still sad and depressed, but at least I was distracted. Each time I got out it got better, and eventually I started enjoying it. You will too.
("I'm not screwing you over, Holding") since I wanted to double check the numbers for the finances. I told her that her behavior wasn't helping our situation, but in retrospect I realize I should have just walked out the room. We eventually resolved it and agreed on the finances.
My W did something similar, she came up with these numbers during the D that made no sense at all. I asked her to sit down and review it with me and she went ballistic, told me the lawyers could just fight it out in court. On the one hand I would tell you to just try and explain to her that you just don't understand and would like to discuss it, it has nothing to do with you not trusting her. But on the other hand having done exactly that myself, I know it doesn't always work. Being calm, rational and practicing good validation can defuse the situations most of the time. But other times it's like trying to put out a forest fire with a glass of water, LOL!
Later in the night she came into my room (the MBR) and said we needed to work on our communication. I thought that was ironic. She says I've been horrible to her, and it's caused her to react badly to me (when what I've really been doing is just not talking to her or looking at her). She said we have to find a way to get along better if we're going to live in the same house until the D is final. She told me she has at least 2 panic attacks a week.
She tried to talk about other stuff (time splitting with the kids, selling the house), and I said I wasn't ready to talk about it. When she corners me in my room, it's honestly hard to end the conversation. I suppose I can just get up and go in another room. I need to work on that. Any suggestions on other ways I can end these conversations at home?
I was looking at my tablet and not giving her my full attention, so she eventually got up and walked out.
So if I understand correctly, she wanted to talk to you about communication and you ignored her and kept your attention on your tablet. Basically you are reinforcing her belief that you are the problem with communications, and that D really is the only answer because when she points out a specific problem to you, you still don't acknowledge it. Maybe you're done, but if you're not then next time, set the tablet down, look her in the eyes and listen to her! If you don't want to talk about selling the house at that time then just tell her "W, I am not prepared to talk about selling the house right now, can we discuss that on (give her a time and date)?" If the D is moving forward you need to have that convo no matter how painful.
In the doorway she turned around and told me good night, and I didn't respond, still looking at my tablet. Telling me good night was weird, considering she hasn't said that to me in about 3 weeks.
I'm just curious why you didn't respond, were you angry? Dismissive? Or did you think it was the right thing to do from a DB'ing perspective? It's a serious question, sometimes people misinterpret some of the DB'ing guidelines.
Thanks, Dusty, Doodler, and AS! Thanks for the confirmation that GAL is the way to go for now. This week will be a better GAL week for me, as the kids will be out of town with grandparents for most of it.
So if I understand correctly, she wanted to talk to you about communication and you ignored her and kept your attention on your tablet. Basically you are reinforcing her belief that you are the problem with communications, and that D really is the only answer because when she points out a specific problem to you, you still don't acknowledge it. Maybe you're done, but if you're not then next time, set the tablet down, look her in the eyes and listen to her! If you don't want to talk about selling the house at that time then just tell her "W, I am not prepared to talk about selling the house right now, can we discuss that on (give her a time and date)?" If the D is moving forward you need to have that convo no matter how painful.
The first half of the convo, where we talked about communication, I wasn't looking at my tablet. But when she wanted to talk about selling the house, splitting time with the kids, etc., I picked up the tablet to show I wasn't interested in talking about that (in addition to actually saying I didn't want to talk about it). I know that convo needs to happen, but W has ideas on how things should go, which I don't agree with. So I'm trying to not have a convo that she might claim was a "verbal agreement" to something when it wasn't.
All the convos we have are always on her terms. It's always about moving the D closer to the finish line. She wants to discuss details on how to split things, when I'm not ready and haven't fully consulted with my L.
I'm just curious why you didn't respond, were you angry? Dismissive? Or did you think it was the right thing to do from a DB'ing perspective? It's a serious question, sometimes people misinterpret some of the DB'ing guidelines.
Good question. I guess I was mostly angry - like she thinks she can get me in line with a few pleasantries. I was also shocked that she said it after so long, so I was also screaming to myself "WTF!?!" And I want her to understand that I will not be her friend or buddy when this is all over. Like I've said, I'm not being a DB purist at this point, since I really feel this is too far gone to save. I have to protect myself now.
...like she thinks she can get me in line with a few pleasantries.
holding,
That brings back memories. After my wife and I separated, she emailed me asking for money. She was so sweet and kind. I kept her on the hook as we exchanged a number of nice messages just like it was in the good old days. Then, I told her she should probably ask the OM for money because I wasn't going to give her any. That dear sweet woman immediately turned into maniacal raging lunatic after that one brief message. What a surprise!
I know that convo needs to happen, but W has ideas on how things should go, which I don't agree with. So I'm trying to not have a convo that she might claim was a "verbal agreement" to something when it wasn't.
Verbal agreements are meaningless in divorce anyway. The decree is the four corners of the law and supercedes any verbal agreements. So if you're worried she might claim something was agreed to verbally that actually wasn't, then you have nothing to worry about.
I fully understand not wanting to have that convo, I absolutely hated doing it. But I did what I suggested to you- when W approached me about it I suggested a date and time. We met then, sat down at the dinner table and discussed visitation and how to split assets. 5 years later I still get sick to my stomach thinking about it. No one should ever have to have that convo, or 100 other heartbreaking convos that happen as a result of BD. But putting it off is just postponing the inevitable. And if you have that convo, then maybe you can at least come to a meeting of the minds that will make D smoother if it happens.
All the convos we have are always on her terms. It's always about moving the D closer to the finish line. She wants to discuss details on how to split things, when I'm not ready and haven't fully consulted with my L.
Well the DB'ing rule on D is don't initiate convos, but if your W initiates then go ahead and discuss it. Also don't initiate any paperwork, but if she asks for anything then give it to her. The more you interfere with D, the harder she will push. Also please understand you are NEVER going to want to have that convo, so if you're waiting hoping you'll feel more up to it later, you won't.
I understand some people just get very angry with their spouse after BD. But I do believe that anger is misplaced. Personally I never did get angry with W, I understood it wasn't easy for her, that she felt like she needed to do it to save herself, that she was confused, and most of all that she didn't hate me, that she just didn't want to be married anymore. I really don't see it as being her fault. Our M had been on autopilot for a long, long time. That was as much my fault as hers. What I never realized until it was too late is that while autopilot was OK for me, it was not for her.
Anyway I guess what I'm saying is that I truly feel my XW and I resolved things quicker and easier by remaining cordial and open to discussion throughout. I am not saying it was easy, but it was a lot easier than it could have been. And for me that was a large part of saving myself. A long, ugly court battle would have sent me into depression and anxiety all over again.
I understand some people just get very angry with their spouse after BD. But I do believe that anger is misplaced. Personally I never did get angry with W, I understood it wasn't easy for her, that she felt like she needed to do it to save herself, that she was confused, and most of all that she didn't hate me, that she just didn't want to be married anymore. I really don't see it as being her fault. Our M had been on autopilot for a long, long time. That was as much my fault as hers. What I never realized until it was too late is that while autopilot was OK for me, it was not for her.
Anyway I guess what I'm saying is that I truly feel my XW and I resolved things quicker and easier by remaining cordial and open to discussion throughout. I am not saying it was easy, but it was a lot easier than it could have been. And for me that was a large part of saving myself. A long, ugly court battle would have sent me into depression and anxiety all over again.
Thanks for the perspective, AS.
I don't know if a cordial resolution in the D is in the cards for us. Maybe W will surprise me with her generosity, but I'm pretty skeptical. I already know what she wants (she emailed it to me), and I'm pretty sure the goal of her talk is to finalize it with me. I know the final D decree is all that matters, but I've been told that any precedent I establish now could have a bearing on the final decree.
Do you think the time difference between BD and the D (about 20 months) helped you in this regard? I'd imagine you'd already gone through your anger by the time you were facing D. Unfortunately, this is all really fresh for me (BD in April), and the anger I'm feeling at the moment is mostly due to having to tell my kids. The anger has subsided a little since we told them a few weeks ago, and I can see how it'll probably continue to lessen. But for now it's making it really hard for me to DB. Maybe I've been acting cold toward W - it's the best I can muster right now.
I had a session with my IC yesterday. Things went okay and we talked about me establishing boundaries for when W becomes nasty, snarky, or pushes conversations that I'm not ready to have. So that helped me get some confidence about dealing with her.
Not many developments otherwise lately. I do get emotional when I think about my kids, but they're out of town for the week and I've been avoiding W like the plague at home. GAL every night this week - working out or meeting friends out for dinner and drinks.
W apparently had someone drop off some moving boxes at the house, so she's planning on packing up something, even though she said she intends to stay in the house. She did take down the framed wedding photos we had in the hall, and I saw no trace of them in the house. Not that I really wanted them or cared to look at them any more. But I do think she's trying to do some things to stick it in my face.
Interestingly, I think a girl I work with might be flirting with me (remember, I stopped wearing my ring the day W said she wanted a D). I know it's far too early in my sitch, but I really enjoyed realizing that I'm still desirable to members of the opposite sex!
My W did that BS when she moved out, took down all the pictures of us and put them in the closet. She didn't take any of them with her. I jokingly asked if she wanted one and she just gave me a look.
I took my ring off as well right before she moved out. It felt kinda weird at first but now I don't give a crap. For me it is my way of saying to her I am done as well.
I had a women ask some mutual friends who I was over 4th of July when we were out on the lake. I didn't do anything with it but it was a incredible boost of confidence!
Not many developments otherwise lately. I do get emotional when I think about my kids, but they're out of town for the week and I've been avoiding W like the plague at home. GAL every night this week - working out or meeting friends out for dinner and drinks.
This going out and GAL thing gets pricey though! It's been a long time since I have just gone out with friends and forgot how much it cost's to be social sometimes! Your doing good, I too get emotional regarding the kids, just yesterday for no reason at all a picture popped up on my computer of my kids and I became very depressed for 15 minutes until a co-worker snapped me out of it. We are allowed to be emotional, we're human beings! WW is the emotionless alien!
As far as the opposite sex question.... I too have been getting noticed by woman at the gym, at work, other mom's in my sub and so on. While being married I felt it would disrespect my wife to talk with other woman, that's just how I am, now that I don't talk to my WW in that way anymore I really miss the interaction on a bit more of a personal level. Not sure if I could act on any of it as I am all about protecting my kids. We can't have both parents stepping outside the marriage until it's over.
I already know what she wants (she emailed it to me), and I'm pretty sure the goal of her talk is to finalize it with me.
I'm just curious how far apart you are on what she is asking for versus what you are looking for?
Do you think the time difference between BD and the D (about 20 months) helped you in this regard? I'd imagine you'd already gone through your anger by the time you were facing D.
I never did feel anger towards W, but yeah I think the lengthy time span did make a difference. She started the D process, but never officially filed. I was the one that ended up pushing it through. By then I was done and ready to move on. It was the last thing I felt was hanging over my head.
But for now it's making it really hard for me to DB. Maybe I've been acting cold toward W - it's the best I can muster right now.
Yeah I understand that. You can't really talk about the anger with her because she's both feet out the door, so the best you can do is just leave her alone.
Thanks Joseph, Dusty, and AS!
My W did that BS when she moved out, took down all the pictures of us and put them in the closet. She didn't take any of them with her. I jokingly asked if she wanted one and she just gave me a look.
Well played! I wish my sense of humor would come back, but I'm just very resentful right now. I'm sure some sarcastic humor from me would drive W crazy. I should work on that.
I had a women ask some mutual friends who I was over 4th of July when we were out on the lake. I didn't do anything with it but it was a incredible boost of confidence!
Yes, it's a great boost! Since our spouses don't want us, it makes us feel unbelievably worthless. Getting that confidence back is part of rebuilding ourselves.
This going out and GAL thing gets pricey though! It's been a long time since I have just gone out with friends and forgot how much it cost's to be social sometimes!
Yes, it does. I try to limit my spending by being very frugal in other places. I figure I need to treat myself in this regard, since I've really neglected myself for so long.
As far as the opposite sex question.... I too have been getting noticed by woman at the gym, at work, other mom's in my sub and so on. While being married I felt it would disrespect my wife to talk with other woman, that's just how I am, now that I don't talk to my WW in that way anymore I really miss the interaction on a bit more of a personal level. Not sure if I could act on any of it as I am all about protecting my kids. We can't have both parents stepping outside the marriage until it's over.
I completely agree that now's not the time to act on these things. I still remind myself what I want to teach my sons about Rs and M. So any kind of crazy fling is totally off my radar. I do wonder, post-D, how I'll deal with dating in relation to my sons. I really want to be a good role model for them.
I'm just curious how far apart you are on what she is asking for versus what you are looking for?
Pretty far, and I know this may be a fight for me. She's very unrealistic about what's fair, considering ALL of our assets, as well as what's best for the kids.
Part 1 - The Weekend by Myself
This weekend W was out of town with the kids, so it was a time for me to just relax and do some GAL for myself.
Went out Friday night with a friend. We went to a bar and stayed until they closed, which is something I haven't done in YEARS. He offered to be my wingman and help me hook up with someone. I thanked him, but said that's not my style, I'm not a dirty cheater like W. I want to walk away from this filthy D with my head held high. And my kids don't deserve to have a cheater for a dad.
I did a charity event on Saturday at a kids museum. Then I went home and got myself a gourmet pizza and watched TV (also something I don't do much of). Oddly I didn't get emotional being by myself at the house, unlike last weekend.
On Sunday I had an upset stomach. It could have been the pizza I had the day before, or it could have been the thought that W would be home soon with the kids. You might remember my stomach was upset last week watching Game of Thrones with W. So after a while, my stomach started to feel a little better, and I made an executive decision to go skydiving.
Skydiving really helps clear my head and give me an emotional boost. This was my second tandem jump, so I got to do some spinning and acceleration tricks. I really have no fear of heights, so I'm considering continuing this as a long-term GAL thing, but I'm just not there yet. My next step is the solo training class, but I haven't signed up for it, and may hold off until after the D is final due to finances.
I had a thought that when I meet someone new, I could take them skydiving with me, where we both do a tandem jump. That thought gave me hope for a better future.
After I got home my stomach was upset again and I felt a little achy. I was thinking about going out with a friend, but just wasn't physically up to it, so I laid down in bed for a while.
When W got home with the kids, I was still in bed. W came in and asked if I was okay. She asked if I was feeling bad or if I just didn't want to be around her (passive aggressive again). She got me a thermometer so I could check my temp - HA! A literal temp check!!
She sat down in the chair in the MBR and wanted to talk. I decided to allow it, knowing that if things started to get out of hand, I'd ask her to leave, or at the worst just walk out myself.
Part 2 - The Talk
We ended up talking for about 30 minutes. We started off talking about the kids. She tried to push the alternating weekend thing (while we're still living in the house, but before D is final), and I said I wasn't going to agree to that. I said we'd just have to communicate with each other to work weekend activities out.
She said I should have gone out of town with her and the boys. She thought I would've had a good time. I told her I didn't think so.
We talked about how we'd like to keep the house, but neither of us could probably afford it. I told her it was a shame for the boys, since they've lost their family and will now lose their house too. She mentioned the possibility of us both living in the house post-D, and I said there was no way I was going to do that.
The conversation turned to the MR. I let things go on since at this point I think the MR is over, and if she wants to perform an autopsy, I don't give a sh*t. I told her she obviously had her mind made up at BD, and it was cruel to lead me on and let me think there was a chance to fix things. She denied that. I told her I didn't believe her, since she never tried anything, and she didn't respond positively to anything I did to work on things. It was always too little, too late for her. If she had really still been trying, how could it also have been "too late"? She didn't have a good response for that, other than insisting that she tried.
I don't remember why she brought this up, but she mentioned she'd been talking to a female friend (someone who is actually a *good* influence on her), and this friend had reconciled with her H several years after a D. I said this was the third or fourth time she'd made a reference to possibly coming back to the MR. I point-blank asked her if she was considering this. She said even if she were, I'd make her "pay" for what she's done, and would be full of bitterness toward her. I said if she did want to come back, we'd have "so much work to do to get back together", and if I felt my bitterness was too much, I wouldn't even let us try.
I said again that her heart is with someone else right now, and she told me I was wrong.
She talked about how we could have fixed this if we'd worked on things a year or two ago. I validated her, but I didn't back down in pointing out how I stuck with her when she went through her hardest times. She wanted to know why I never made changes (like I'm making now) all the other times we faced problems. She'd told me that years ago she'd thought about leaving when we'd been to a MC (although she never told me she was thinking about that then).
After a pause I told her I'm going to be a good husband for someone. She said she hoped I would be.
(And yes, I can see there are serious communication issues at play here. Talking about our problems was never a strong suit for us. Things often got swept under the rug. I think we were both afraid to say hurtful things in the past, and that led to issues not being resolved. And here we are now.)
W said she would be watching Game of Thrones shortly in the living room, and would enjoy my company watching. I asked her if she was serious, and she said yes. She said I could sit on the opposite side of the living room from her. My stomach was feeling better by this point, so I decided to give it a go. I told myself that if she started with any snide comments, or if I felt uncomfortable, I'd just get up and continue watching in the MBR. We watched, W seemed to be in a lighter mood, tried to make small talk, and I responded minimally. I noticed she kept texting on her phone, but I just didn't care. I really felt nothing toward her, ignored her, and enjoyed the show.
Afterwards, she asked my opinion on a dress she got. I just shrugged my shoulders, made a confused face, and said "it's okay I guess". She didn't like this response and just walked off.
It's like she thinks she's going to flip a switch and I'm going to go into buddy mode with her.
At least you're having any discussion regarding your MR. My WW is either so far gone with zero possibility or it's because she is in so in love with ongoing EA that she is still in the cloud. I also have very good reason to expect her best friend is playing wing man for her trying to set her up with other guys including a former high school friend that has always wanted to be with her. That is why I am in protect my children mode because if they find out what their mom is really doing it could be beyond devastating for them, sure hope i'm not the one who tells them!! Keep up the good work and see where it goes, looks like she is taking notice.
Thanks, Dusty. I understand wanting to keep the A from your kids. In time though, I think the kids always get a feel for their parents, even if they never figure out the details.
Do you honestly think these MR discussions with my W are a sign of anything positive? I don't see how anything could be turned around now. (I know - it's a marathon, not a sprint.) I'm not interpreting these interactions as a possibility, they're more like a chance for W to justify her position. Except for this "what if" reconciliation talk my wife throws out - it makes it hard for me to stay the course to get my life back.
One things is certain though. I'm confident I've communicated to W that I'm done here and am ready to move on with the D and my life.
OK - one other thing I remembered from the conversation. Last week W took down all the wedding photos from the hall, and I never knew what she did with them. I found out last night that she brought them to her parents' house for safe keeping. She noticed I'd taken down some pics of us in the MBR, and she assumed I trashed them, so that's why she took the wedding pics from the hall. I told her I only put those MBR pics of us away so I didn't have to look at them, and she seemed a little surprised by that. So yes, this is a glaring example of our poor communication skills, jumping to conclusions, and our tit-for-tat mentality. This kind of stuff has plagued our M.
Thinking about the past and the future today.
First came thoughts of the future - what my life will be like post-D, and especially wondering what kind of interactions I'll have with W. I'm not looking forward to dealing with her nastiness, snide comments, and the possibility that I'll have to see her at functions for my kids. How will I feel about her being with someone else, actually seeing them together?
Then I started thinking about the past, and stupidly looked for old pics of W on my phone. She looks different in those old pics, and I think it's more than just the weight difference. She seems more at ease and approachable. I miss that familiarity.
I met up with a friend last night who's been supporting me through my sitch. He told me that, with the "what if" scenarios my W's been bringing up lately, it almost sounds like she is having second thoughts at this point. I'm not gonna lie, it has made me think about the possibility.
Not sure why I'm letting my brain torture me like this today.
I just re-read that last post, and I'm struck by the dichotomy between my almost rosy view of the past, and my very grim view of the future.
In reality, I know the past wasn't all that great, and the future won't be all that bad. Maybe my thoughts yesterday were just the scared part of my brain trying to fight the inevitable change and hold onto the familiarity of the past. Maybe it's that same side of me that wonders if W is having second thoughts.
I can jump out of a perfectly good plane, but it's still hard for me to jump out of a flawed marriage.
I accept any and all 2x4's
holding,
The future almost always looks brighter when it's in the rearview mirror.
There's something about that statement that doesn't seem quite right. Oh well, that probably explains why no one ever quotes my quips.
My best advice is "don't borrow trouble from the future" -- you've got enough to deal with today right?
Your wife is being nasty and snide because she's angry and/or insecure. You're tolerating it because you are motivated to keep the peace and you on some level may want her back.
Post-D, the anger will at some point subside, and your willingness to tolerate her "snide and nasty" will quickly diminish. She'll learn that if she wants to interact with you, then she can't act that way and you'll see it diminish.
Thinking that your wife is having second thoughts is mind reading, and that doesn't lead anywhere good. The more likely explanation is that she's scared and trying to address some of her fears. That does not in any way mean that she wants to come back, it just means she's scared about the future.
Keep focusing on you and being the person you want to be and everything else will work out.
Acc
Doodler, thanks, I guess
Acc, thanks for providing some clarity. I appreciate the warning about mind reading - I should know better. I will keep focusing on myself.
Inspired by a post Joseph9 made in his thread, I decided to put together a list of all the positive things I've done since BD to work on myself:
1. Lost 25 pounds!! - I haven't weighed this much (or little) in over 20 years!
2. Joined the YMCA to exercise, going at least twice a week, often taking S10 with me
3. Read 4 self-help books (so far)
4. Done a lot of soul searching
5. Seeing an IC weekly
6. Strengthening my relationship with my sons
7. Went for a ride in a glider with S14
8. Went skydiving 2 times
9. Meeting up with friends to socialize more
10. Going out by myself (lunch, dinner, or movie) to reinforce that I'm fine by myself
11. Bought new clothes
12. Dressing nicer at work
13. Bought a new electric razor and am shaving every day (I used to be lazy and go every other day)
14. Wearing cologne consistently
15. Got a passport
So now I need to think what I can do next. I have some other books in the pipeline. But things will get harder since the school year is about to start. I need to find a way to be there for my sons (with their school work, which they tend to struggle with) while still having time for myself.
Holding, I am asking this in all truthfulness, but what is it you want? Do you want your M or are you done? I'm reading a LOT of passive/aggressiveness in your interactions with W. Here are a few examples:
She said I should have gone out of town with her and the boys. She thought I would've had a good time. I told her I didn't think so.
I told her it was a shame for the boys, since they've lost their family and will now lose their house too.
I told her she obviously had her mind made up at BD, and it was cruel to lead me on and let me think there was a chance to fix things.
I told her I didn't believe her, since she never tried anything, and she didn't respond positively to anything I did to work on things.
There's more, but that's a representative sample. Here is what I hear when I read this- "wife, you are 100% to blame here. I have done nothing wrong. I have tried everything, and you have done nothing. You have wrecked my life and the lives of our children."
THIS IS NOT DB'ING. You really need a gutcheck. If you want to save your M then it's time to put the brakes to all of this whining and complaining and man up. Enough with the "poor me" stuff, ESPECIALLY around your W. If you want to do it here that's fine, but quit throwing pity parties with your W! You are NOT showing her what she'll miss, you're convincing her she's doing the right thing!
I said this was the third or fourth time she'd made a reference to possibly coming back to the MR. I point-blank asked her if she was considering this.
That's pursuit and pressure. Pressure is the last thing she needs.
She said even if she were, I'd make her "pay" for what she's done, and would be full of bitterness toward her
SHE IS RIGHT. That is exactly what you are modeling to her.
After a pause I told her I'm going to be a good husband for someone.
Answer this HONESTLY- why did you say that? Were you hoping to get a dig in on her? Now answer this honestly- what did you gain by saying that? How did it further your growth?
Afterwards, she asked my opinion on a dress she got. I just shrugged my shoulders, made a confused face, and said "it's okay I guess". She didn't like this response and just walked off.
That sounds so wimpy and passive/aggressive that it makes me wonder why she didn't loan you a purse and high heels. Brother you need to get back in touch with your testicles! My GF tried on a dress last weekend and asked me what I thought, I told her that she might want to check the local laws because I was pretty sure showing curves like that is illegal in most states. Then I warned her that if she wore it around me much it would spend more time on the floor than on her. If I had said stuff like that to my XW more I'd probably still be married. I was too busy being a dad to be romantic though. Find your manly man-ness again. Whether you want your M or not you need that.
First came thoughts of the future - what my life will be like post-D,
I would say that your life post D will look like anything YOU want it to be! Your wife gave you the playbook as to what is wrong(of course we know it's not all true) with you. Your GAL is making you better for your next chapter, a faithful, loyal, honest person and a great father!
and especially wondering what kind of interactions I'll have with W. I'm not looking forward to dealing with her nastiness, snide comments,
Thankfully my WW is not a nasty person, I have always said since the day I met her that she is one of the nicest people I have ever met in my life(except for now) We unfortunately need to deal with our W's because of the kids. Lately for me I am looking forward to the day my D11 turns 18 so I never need to deal with my WW again, hate to say it.
Thinking that your wife is having second thoughts is mind reading, and that doesn't lead anywhere good. The more likely explanation is that she's scared and trying to address some of her fears. That does not in any way mean that she wants to come back, it just means she's scared about the future.
Keep focusing on you and being the person you want to be and everything else will work out.
Completely agree with Accuray here, I think she is having these conversations with you to see where your head is and why you are making these changes to YOU! Keep up your GAL(nice list^^^^ BTW, skydiving?? you know how I feel about that) Still have a long road ahead, it does you no good to have that "what if" mentality, if she told you tonight that she made a mistake and want's back, would you stop your GAL???
Thanks, AS. I did ask for a 2x4, and you certainly gave me one. I really appreciate you writing that, and I'll try to respond as honestly as I can.
What do I want? Am I done? - Well, I was 100% done for about 2 weeks after W definitively told me she wanted to D. I went dark. I got my L involved and had a plan to survive this mess. I was going to fight to get everything my boys and I needed in the D. After we told the boys about the D, and seeing W's lack of emotion in response to them, I was even more firm in my stance. I was a battleship sailing away. I was angry. I was FURIOUS.
Then W started with some of these "what if" comments, and it honestly made me doubt myself. For about the last two weeks, I've felt some of my anger starting to soften. So now I'm 95% done. I have a plan to end this, but I might be open to the possibility that W could want to reverse course. I am still a battleship, but I've opened a small porthole - W can now get in if she chooses.
Is it possible to be 95% done? I'm serious. Am I not really done if I'm not at 100%? Can I be "mostly done" (like "mostly dead")?
A lot of people seem to think the "what ifs" are just W messing with me, doing a temp check, or trying to gain sympathy from me. I know she's scared about the D now that I have my own L, and is afraid I'll try to get custody of the kids (she actually asked me that).
About my passive-aggressive comments - I should point out though that up until just the past week or so, I wasn't making comments like this. Since I do consider myself "mostly done", I've dropped the hope that things will turn around, and don't really see the purpose in shielding W from my negative emotions any more.
And I do have negative emotions. I think W is selfish. I think she's played me since BD - I see no signs that she actually wanted to work on anything post-BD, other than to keep me on hold until the D was convenient. She is the one that has closed the door on our M and this family. Why is it pass-agg for me to point that out? That's not a rhetorical question.
And my W has barely showed any sorrow for what she's done. She's had this ice queen facade that disgusts me. I think she SHOULD be sorry. As far as I recall, she said she was sorry 1 time.
(Yes, I recognize I'm still in the "anger" phase of grief.)
We both had our problems in this R, but it was ultimately W who decided to throw her hands up and exit. I apologized PROFUSELY after BD, and for the next month. Only when I started to DB 100% did my apologizing stop.
The comment about the boys losing the house is 100% pass-agg (thanks for pointing that out), but the other 3 you quoted don't seem that way to me. In those statements I'm coming right out and saying to my wife how I feel. Do you really think I'm hiding behind words in those examples?
I honestly don't see what I said as a pity party. I see it as a sign that I'm willing to stand up for myself and tell W that she's not going to manipulate me any more.
W has pointed out to me that often in our MR, I was so conflict avoidant that I would just keep things to myself (where they would fester) instead of having a discussion about them. In the past I didn't want to start a fight, so that never gave us the opportunity to address things in a timely manner. With me making these statements to my wife (which you quoted), I feel like I'm standing up for myself. And I'm not doing it to "show her", but because I've realized that being conflict avoidant is extremely unhealthy for me. It's not who I want to be any more.
After a pause I told her I'm going to be a good husband for someone.
Answer this HONESTLY- why did you say that? Were you hoping to get a dig in on her?
I said that to show that I'm ready to move on. I'm bettering myself for me, not just because I'm trying to get her back. And I also wanted her to know that she would be missing out on a new and improved version of me. So maybe a little bit of "you're gonna miss out on THIS" but not quite a dig.
Now answer this honestly- what did you gain by saying that? How did it further your growth?
It shows her that I'm done sitting around to be her plan B. As for my growth, I feel like standing up to W, who has stood on my shoulders for so long, is a very healthy thing for me right now. I'm not going to be an unappreciated stepstool for her ambitions any more. I have value and I'm positive other woman will appreciate that.
That sounds so wimpy and passive/aggressive that it makes me wonder why she didn't loan you a purse and high heels. Brother you need to get back in touch with your testicles! My GF tried on a dress last weekend and asked me what I thought, I told her that she might want to check the local laws because I was pretty sure showing curves like that is illegal in most states. Then I warned her that if she wore it around me much it would spend more time on the floor than on her. If I had said stuff like that to my XW more I'd probably still be married. I was too busy being a dad to be romantic though. Find your manly man-ness again. Whether you want your M or not you need that.
If I were still at a point where I thought W wanted to work on the MR, I'd be all over how good that dress looked on her (it really did, BTW). But I think this was just a temp check or cake eating. Inside I was screaming, "I'm not your buddy. I'm not going to be rejected in M but still kept on the hook for fashion advice"). Maybe I should have said that instead of my shrug - I see now that would've been more direct. But do you think it's appropriate for me to give compliments to my W, given my current sitch?
I'll just share a story from about a week after BD (remember, this is when I was in re-limerance): my W was going out to a social gathering and she refused to take me. When she came out of the bedroom all done up, I swear that must have been the best she's ever looked in my life! And I told her. I said she looked amazing, twice. I said I wanted to take a picture because she looked so damn good. I asked if she was trying to make my jealous by looking so good. So she knows that I do find her attractive and am perfectly capable of making compliments.
Once again, I've tried to be honest here and really think about my answers. I know that I'm still very angry about things right now. And I'm know I'm not being very good a DB'ing. But considering my W, and all the nastiness she's been showing me, I think I've been very level-headed.
After writing all that, it makes me want to close that porthole a little - maybe leave just a small crack. Can I switch over to 96% done?
Feel free to ask me any other questions that peel away the layers of my psyche!
(Man, that last one was a LONG post. Congrats to anyone who made it all the way through
)
Dusty, thanks for your response and words of support.
If she told you tonight that she made a mistake and want's back, would you stop your GAL???
No, if W and I actually did reconcile, I still wouldn't stop the GAL activities. This is 100% for me at this point.
I need the emotional GAL boost to get through this river of sh*t. And when it's over and I've survived, I'll need to continue with the GAL because it's just plain good for me. I realize I've neglected myself for too long.
Feel free to ask me any other questions that peel away the layers of my psyche!
This is the existential question my sons like to ask: Who is your favorite superhero?
This is the existential question my sons like to ask: Who is your favorite superhero?
Easy - Batman. He's a self-made man. He's a thinker. There's nothing that makes him super except for his determination.
Why not Iron Man, you might ask? Well, Iron Man's too showy for my tastes
Hey AS, I hope you can come back and comment on my response to your 2x4. I do think you misinterpreted a lot of what I said to my W, probably because you couldn't hear my tone of voice while I was talking to her.
I hope you'll bear with me as this will be a long one, but I feel it's a very important subject and warrants more discussion:
Is it possible to be 95% done? I'm serious. Am I not really done if I'm not at 100%? Can I be "mostly done" (like "mostly dead")?
I'm not sure anyone can ever be "100%" because it's human nature to change our minds!
About my passive-aggressive comments - I should point out though that up until just the past week or so, I wasn't making comments like this. Since I do consider myself "mostly done", I've dropped the hope that things will turn around, and don't really see the purpose in shielding W from my negative emotions any more.
I get that, but my point is passive/aggressive is never good no matter who you are talking to. If you're done with her then communicate that to her, if you choose to communicate at all. Don't hide it behind snide comments. For example:
She said I should have gone out of town with her and the boys. She thought I would've had a good time. I told her I didn't think so.
Maybe say this instead: "W, we are going through a divorce, our relationship is over. I don't want to spend "family" time with you when we are not a family anymore, it's too painful. I hope you understand and respect my feelings on this."
Do you see what I'm saying? Be direct. Speak your mind and communicate your feelings.
And I do have negative emotions. I think W is selfish. I think she's played me since BD - I see no signs that she actually wanted to work on anything post-BD, other than to keep me on hold until the D was convenient. She is the one that has closed the door on our M and this family. Why is it pass-agg for me to point that out? That's not a rhetorical question.
Of course you have negative emotions! Although I would argue that when it comes to feelings, they shouldn't be looked at as "positive" or "negative" because that implies that you should have some feelings and should not have others. We should own our feelings no matter what they are. It's the WAY you're communicating that's passive/aggressive, not the content.
And my W has barely showed any sorrow for what she's done. She's had this ice queen facade that disgusts me. I think she SHOULD be sorry. As far as I recall, she said she was sorry 1 time.
I said the exact same thing about my W being completely done with no sorrow about it, that I had never seen her so resolute about anything. The good folks here kept telling me I was wrong, that internally she was probably pretty miserable and like you, I didn't believe them. I thought no one knew my W like me, plus I saw her every day and they did not. Months later she told me that it was all an act, that she was crying herself to sleep every night because she was so torn up with emotions over what she was doing to me and to the kids. She had to put up the facade to make everyone think she was sure it was the right thing to do so they wouldn't try to talk her out of it. Just try to have a little sympathy for her instead of seeing her as the enemy. Yes she's the one that walked away, but deep inside there somewhere is still the woman you fell in love with.
I honestly don't see what I said as a pity party. I see it as a sign that I'm willing to stand up for myself and tell W that she's not going to manipulate me any more.
If that's how you feel then tell her, don't hide it behind little digs. The problem with passive/aggressive comments is no one knows what's behind them except you. It just causes a lot of confusion. "You're mad but I don't understand why" is what they're thinking.
W has pointed out to me that often in our MR, I was so conflict avoidant that I would just keep things to myself (where they would fester) instead of having a discussion about them.
Very observant, and I think you're still doing that. That's really what P/A is, it's transmitting negative energy without actually communicating anything meaningful.
After a pause I told her I'm going to be a good husband for someone.
Answer this HONESTLY- why did you say that? Were you hoping to get a dig in on her?
I said that to show that I'm ready to move on. I'm bettering myself for me, not just because I'm trying to get her back. And I also wanted her to know that she would be missing out on a new and improved version of me. So maybe a little bit of "you're gonna miss out on THIS" but not quite a dig.
If you're "bettering yourself for you" then you don't need to say anything to her. You should be SHOWING her what a great dude you are, she will piece together that someone else is going to be the lucky recipient of all that awesomeness.
If I were still at a point where I thought W wanted to work on the MR, I'd be all over how good that dress looked on her (it really did, BTW). But I think this was just a temp check or cake eating. Inside I was screaming, "I'm not your buddy. I'm not going to be rejected in M but still kept on the hook for fashion advice").
YES! So why didn't you say exactly THAT to her? Say what you feel!!! If you're 95% or 100% done then what do you have to lose? Your reaction (I just shrugged my shoulders, made a confused face, and said "it's okay I guess") communicates nothing other than a lack of confidence in yourself.
My whole point with all of this is I think this would be a monumental 180 for you. If you actually started telling your W what you feel, even if it's "bad" feelings, she may very well think "woah who is this guy that isn't afraid to say what he feels?" Even if all you're expressing is anger, she will RESPECT you for it.
Thanks for that, AS.
At this point, there's really nothing for me to lose by being direct. I'm going to make it my mission to not hold back on any feelings. I'm going to say what I feel. Thanks!
Yes she's the one that walked away, but deep inside there somewhere is still the woman you fell in love with.
You know, this is really hard for me to come to terms with. The woman I fell in love with would never do the things my W is now doing. It's just so hard for me to reconcile this with reality. Even if she is in there, she's outnumbered. I can't help her any more.
I get that feeling, holding. Like Demons 5, Spouse 0. It's sad isn't it? (Although to be fair, it might not stay that way)
It does seem as if the demons entering the WS keep increasing day by day. You would think that things would improve, but they seem to get worse before moving in a good direction. I often wonder if a spouse is in there somewhere.
You know, this is really hard for me to come to terms with. The woman I fell in love with would never do the things my W is now doing. It's just so hard for me to reconcile this with reality. Even if she is in there, she's outnumbered. I can't help her any more.
Outnumbered, haha! Yes, it really does seem that way. Sometimes they come out of the fog and go "back to normal" and sometimes they never do. The woman I was married to the first 18 or 19 years is not the same as the post-BD woman. It's been 5 years since BD and she still seems like an alien invader to me. I love this woman as the mother of my children (and she is still a fantastic mother) but I am not "in love" with her and in fact feel like I barely know her, whereas I would have told you I knew the pre-BD version of her better than myself. I think in her case she went through some kind of a mid-life change, maybe it was menopause (she did go through it around BD time). In any event I can relate to what you're saying. The old W may be in there, but she's no longer running the show and I don't think she ever will again. It's a shame really, because THAT woman was absolutely amazing.
You know, this is really hard for me to come to terms with. The woman I fell in love with would never do the things my W is now doing. It's just so hard for me to reconcile this with reality. Even if she is in there, she's outnumbered. I can't help her any more.
Sometimes they come out of the fog and go "back to normal" and sometimes they never do. The woman I was married to the first 18 or 19 years is not the same as the post-BD woman. It's been 5 years since BD and she still seems like an alien invader to me....The old W may be in there, but she's no longer running the show and I don't think she ever will again. It's a shame really, because THAT woman was absolutely amazing.
Can only say amen and agree..such a painful waste
You know, this is really hard for me to come to terms with. The woman I fell in love with would never do the things my W is now doing. It's just so hard for me to reconcile this with reality. Even if she is in there, she's outnumbered. I can't help her any more.
I have had the same feeling lately accepting the death of my current marriage. She is no longer the woman I loved unconditionally for over 20 years. She isn't attractive anymore to me, the woman who I thought was a good mom is no longer there as well. We can't help them, they have to help themselves, it has to be this way for US to get by!
Can only say amen and agree..such a painful waste
Treasure, completely agree, makes me sad to even read this!
Thanks AS, Treasur, and Dusty. The change in the person is painful, but I'm starting to see how it can be helpful too. It helps us separate the present from the past, and helps us see that what we used to have is really gone.
For a while in my sitch, I was having dreams where I'd be losing W in one way or another, and they really got to to me. Now in my dreams W is always some kind of distant figure or adversary. These new dreams aren't nearly as upsetting as the old ones.
Thursday W and I went to a school event with S10. She really seemed like an alien to me. She's not as attractive in my eyes any more. The funny thing is she met us there and apparently couldn't recognize me from the back. Ha!
Yesterday W left for her European trip, where I suspect OM may be meeting her. But I honestly don't care about that. I actually told her bye (obviously no hug or kiss though), which is a change for me. After she left, I felt more at ease. So it's just me and my boys for a week.
Later in the day yesterday, S14 had an optional school event to go to, and I was trying to talk him into it. He really can be a stick in the mud, and I'm trying to help him get out the house and do things. He argued with me on and off for about 30 minutes, and eventually just refused to go. I got frustrated, and since my emotions are so thin right now, I kinda had an emotional breakdown and cried in front of him and S10. They both seemed a little taken aback. I've seen some people say you need to be strong for your kids, but I just don't think it's healthy to try to hide my emotions from my kids. A real man has feelings. I had stuff to do elsewhere in the house, so I left the room and went about my business, but I continued to be a mess for the next 30 minutes. After I'd collected myself, I told the boys I hoped I hadn't upset them, and I knew things would be hard for all of us for a while. I also asked S14 to try to be a little more cooperative.
Last night my charity group (it's sci-fi related btw) had a social get together at a local food and gaming joint. S10 was gung ho to come, but S14 just wasn't interested. I told him I'd really enjoy his presence, but he didn't want to go. I mean, I know it's probably mostly due to his age, but I'm upset that he may not see how precious these moments are, going forward.
Anyway, S10 and I went and had an absolute blast! We ate, bowled, played lasertag and arcade games, and stayed so late we basically closed the place down. It was great to be around all the people in my group, with my son, and it all just felt so natural. I can honestly say I didn't have a single moment where I missed my W (she never wanted to be a part of my events with this group). And it was so great to hear S10 saying he was having a good time with me.
I haven't said anything about the D to anyone in the group, but they may have noticed I'm not wearing my ring any more. There are women in the group, some of them single, and maybe one day I'll meet someone through the group that shares some common interests.
W feels more and more like a ghost from my past that I'm trying to forget about.
I think I may have reached detachment - I always imagined I'd feel happy about being detached, but I'm not. Once you get here, you realize you don't need that person in your life, and really don't want them either. Life is what's waiting to happen once you escape your current sitch.
Hope everyone makes the most of their weekend.
Thanks AS, Treasur, and Dusty. The change in the person is painful, but I'm starting to see how it can be helpful too. It helps us separate the present from the past, and helps us see that what we used to have is really gone.
It does help with detachment to see how different they are, even if it is shocking sometimes.
I don't know how much of the 'original' person is still in there if they are in the grip of MLC. I don't see much sign of it with my H, but logically there must be some of them still in the mix. Too many consistent years of v1...but you are dealing with v2 right now and detachment helps.
I think it's one of the biggest internal struggles actually for the LBS, to detach from v2 but do it in a loving way inside your own head because of v1. Some posters here who have seen their spouses come out of the fog eventually do see a sort of v3 that includes a lot of the original, I think. But a lot of WAS/MLC are being driven by their own emotional defences so it's hard to see.
I think of my H as dead. I don't expect to see him again, just the cold irrational v2 who is divorcing me, but I hope he does get to a v3 that is capable of being the pretty great man he was.
W is still on her European vacation. No contact from her in over 24 hours - Woot!! The little contact there has been was about the kids and their first day at school. She did text me 2 days ago saying she wasn't feeling well and was calling it an early night by staying in her hotel room. I didn't respond. Did she expect sympathy from me?
She skyped with S10 and I could barely stand to be in the same room as her voice. If she decided to just never come back I'd honestly be thrilled.
FIL is in town and asked me and my boys to meet him for dinner last night. I went for their sake. No talk of anything related to W or the D. I don't really have anything against the guy, but it's just an awkward reminder of the life we're leaving behind.
S10 said W mentioned taking him and S14 on a vacation to Italy, and the thought of the her and my sons having a good time together just really bothered me. (She and I were supposed to go about 4 years back, but an auto accident intervened.) Don't get me wrong, I want my boys to enjoy life, but I'm not at a place right now where I can wish her happiness. At all. So for some reason, the whole Italy thing put me in a foul mood the rest of the night.
Last night I did some reading before bed (just finished the NG book and started the codependency book). Then I decided to have a conversation with God. If you've been following my sitch, you'll remember I've basically become an athiest over the years, but turned to God after BD to help me get through the sitch.
Well, I guess I didn't have much of anything positive to say to God last night. I told him this was a real cruel joke. I totally bought into the whole "marriage, commitment, loyalty" thing, and now I find myself in this miserable mess. And my kids are mixed up in this mess too. I could handle God putting me in this sitch, but doing it to my kids too is just too much for me. So now I'm back to believing that maybe God's not there after all. Hope that doesn't rub anyone here the wrong way - I just need to vent.
I'm feeling so much anger toward W right now. I know this is just a phase I'm going through. But I feel like I don't really have a constructive way to use this anger. Other than screaming when I'm driving alone, there's no place for the emotion to go. With the kids starting school and W away, my workout opportunities are limited. Any suggestions?
Hang in there man I promise it will get better. I remember the days of yelling when alone in the car. Now I mostly feel excited about my future.
Your wife will eventually start to see the consequences of her actions.
Feel your emotions. Cry and punch the pillow when you are alone.
Stay strong my friend!
Thanks, LH19!
Your wife will eventually start to see the consequences of her actions.
Thanks, but I try not to think about that. The thought of her seeing the consequences isn't as satisfying as it used to be. And when I do think about it, I realize it ignites that small flame of hope - maybe the realization will make her doubt herself and want to change course. But it's honestly too painful for me right now to feed that hope.
So I took S10 to the IC last night. He actually didn't want to go, and I had to talk him into it. I'm glad I brought him though. The IC is good, and she let him play with blocks while they talked. He started to open up a little, and now he actually wants to go back. She says he's still in denial, which is normal. On the ride home he told me I still need to love his mommy because we aren't divorced yet, and a "miracle" might happen. Then he said we need to win the lottery so we don't have to sell the house. (Internal rage intensifies...)
W will probably be back home tomorrow unless this hurricane thing in the Gulf of Mexico gets in the way. I don't think I've ever wished for a hurricane before
Thanks, LH19!
Your wife will eventually start to see the consequences of her actions.
Thanks, but I try not to think about that. The thought of her seeing the consequences isn't as satisfying as it used to be. And when I do think about it, I realize it ignites that small flame of hope - maybe the realization will make her doubt herself and want to change course. But it's honestly too painful for me right now to feed that hope.
So I took S10 to the IC last night. He actually didn't want to go, and I had to talk him into it. I'm glad I brought him though. The IC is good, and she let him play with blocks while they talked. He started to open up a little, and now he actually wants to go back. She says he's still in denial, which is normal. On the ride home he told me I still need to love his mommy because we aren't divorced yet, and a "miracle" might happen. Then he said we need to win the lottery so we don't have to sell the house. (Internal rage intensifies...)
W will probably be back home tomorrow unless this hurricane thing in the Gulf of Mexico gets in the way. I don't think I've ever wished for a hurricane before
Thanks for sharing that. It helps me with figuring out what my boys might think of the house situation. It sure is heart wrenching. Reading about the kids hoping their parents get back together gets me every time. My only hope is that if the kids see that one parent wanted to keep the marriage together it will help mitigate the example that has been set.
As for workout ideas: If you belong to one of those palace-type gyms. Bring them along. Have them swim, or play basketball, whatever. But I'm guessing that isn't the case.
You could go to the local high school if you are more cardio oriented and tell the kids to play ball of some type (or lookup a body-weight workout, pull-ups, lunges, squats, jumps...) Playing football, with you being the receiver, could be good HIIT sprint training. Or you can really give in and enable the mobile hotspot on your phone and let them play ipad or whatever, while you do your workout. Keep in mind that changing your workout will probably stimulate new gains. I hated doing it, but changing my workout always gave me a good gain.
Holding
Just re-read your thread. First of all, I can't imagine how painful it must be to hear your little boy say something like that...but it made me wonder. You're angry (understandably) and you seem to shut down and be a bit passive-aggressive in your responses when you feel that way. Is that fair?
I can see a couple of times when your wife seems to want to communicate, to invite you to sit with her...is she still doing that? If she does it again, and if you still want your M to have a shot, would a 180 for you be to listen and validate and be a little more open to communication?
And God? (Ha, what do I know, if you look at my thread you'll see my MLC H ran away and sees me as not worth even a conversation!) I don't think God takes orders, but I think he can be like a good father or mother. If your son comes home upset about something at school, as a good father you listen to him, hug him and try to make him feel good and strong enough to go back to school and face stuff the next day. For me, at the worst of times, I ask God to hold me and do that.
Thanks, Kylo and Treasur!
Kylo, I appreciate the workout suggestions. The real issue on weeknights is time. By the time I get home and finish dinner with the boys, there's not much time left. But I need to look closer at the schedule and see what I can swing.
You're angry (understandably) and you seem to shut down and be a bit passive-aggressive in your responses when you feel that way. Is that fair?
I'm starting to be more conscious of my tendency to be pass-agg. It's something I'm trying to work on. To be fair, my W does this, so it's a cycle I have to try to break out of. Sometimes I wonder if I'm acting like this because of my W - I don't remember being like this before our R. Ah, I suppose it's mutual. I need to stop making excuses.
I can see a couple of times when your wife seems to want to communicate, to invite you to sit with her...is she still doing that? If she does it again, and if you still want your M to have a shot, would a 180 for you be to listen and validate and be a little more open to communication?
There is a very small part of me that still wants to save my M. But I honestly have a hard time differentiating between an honest effort on her part and a temp check to see if I'm still a viable plan B. Any tips on how I can tell the difference?
After BD I did a huge 180 on my communication efforts with her. At first she just blamed me for everything, and I think I did a very good job of validating and listening. But it just didn't seem to make a difference to my W. Eventually she told me she wanted a divorce. After that I've had a real hard time seeing how things could turn around.
But the next time she wants a conversation, I'll be more open and direct. The only challenge is that my L has told me not to fight with my wife. I'm concerned that true honesty from both of us would lead to a verbal argument and probably raised voices (something we never did much of in our R).
On a lighter note, Hurricane Harvey has given me a few more days' reprieve from W's presence.
Surprise, surprise! Guess who showed up at home, 10 hours after telling me her flight was canceled?
Not really possible to GAL or get out the house. So now I'm trapped in the house with her during this hurricane, waiting things out. I swear this has gotta be the plot of a movie.
She mentioned she was taking the boys to a football game next Saturday and I was invited. She was given the tickets and has a ticket for me. I did not accept and do not plan on doing so. I'm going to have plans that day, but I'll be direct and tell her the reason I'm not going is because we're not a family any more.
She cleaned out a bunch of her craft and scrapbook supplies, and it made me get emotional (kept it to myself though). I'm concerned she might have thrown away some pics or artwork from the kids. It's very upsetting to see her slowly dismantling 18 years of M. I still feel absolutely horrible for my kids.
We discussed finances for the month of September and how to split the bills - no snarky comments from her this time, unlike last month. Then she started showing me some pictures from her vacation. I just looked and didn't say much. Later on she showed all her pics to the boys and asked if I wanted to join them. I told them to go ahead without me.
What's worse about this hurricane is that now some in-laws might need to come here if they get flooded. My mom tells me I'm almost done working off my time in purgatory, and will certainly go straight to heaven.
Hi holding,
Based on your posts I'm assuming you're no longer interested in saving the marriage and are instead looking for support in getting through the divorce?
Acc
Hey Acc. I've tried to leave room in my heart for the possibility of reconciliation. But it's gotten too painful for me. At this point if she showed true remorse, I'm not sure I would be able to go back.
So yes. I'm looking for support with the divorce process.
Perfectly fine holding, just wanted to clarify -- you're doing great, stay strong!
Thanks, Acc. For a second there I thought y'all were going to blackball me
I've realized a big hurdle for me in the process is facing my wife's rage. I've always known she's had a very mean side, and I'm starting to realize how much of that I'm going to face in the near future.
Fearing her is just another way to stay tied to her. Realistically what is she going to do to you? Let this go with everything else and move on.
You're right, OwnIt. I actually do fear her. I need to face that fear for myself, not only to get through this, but to grow as a person.
I've realized a big hurdle for me in the process is facing my wife's rage. I've always known she's had a very mean side, and I'm starting to realize how much of that I'm going to face in the near future.
holding,
My wife (now ex-wife) used (and still uses) her anger to control people. She's very good at it. I paid careful attention to how she's able to control and manipulate through fear. I started using her techniques on her, but I'm juiced them up a few notches. That got her attention.
I don't like being mean and nasty, but I needed her to understand that I could match anything that she could hand me and I'd raise the bar. She knows I won't back-down and that makes life a lot easier for me. I went from passive pleaser to pissy pugilist (metaphorically) in a short amount of time. And it was good.
Thanks for the advice, doodler. I am not a naturally angry person, by any stretch of the imagination, so putting on those shoes is very weird for me. But after reading the NG book, I realize that it's something I need to explore more. Any tips on how I can do that? How did you use your W's techniques on her?
So this reminds me of an interaction I had with my W from 2 days ago. Our area has been hit by Hurricane Harvey, and I've been struggling being in the house with W - had some rough moments in private.
Let me preface this by saying I present this so I can be stronger in dealing with W and the upcoming D.
Anyway, W was trying to go to the grocery to get supplies, and she called me from the driveway to say her car was not starting and she needed me to jump-start it. She had this problem with her car before her trip to Europe, and she never took care of it. I'm thinking to myself, this is the perfect opportunity for her to see what life will be like without me. I was also taken aback by the way she seemed to be angry while asking for my help. I reluctantly decided I would do it if she would be able to ask me in a nice way.
So I ask her if she's sure it's her battery. She told me the sounds it was making and was getting frustrated. This is the classic rescue situation she sets up, where she's frustrated with a problem and I would always swoop in to help her and fix things.
After a moment, she angrily said never mind. I said ok. Then there was about 10 seconds of silence - she didn't hang up. So I just hung up. This was very hard for me. In the past I was always trying to be helpful, and it was REALLY hard for me to sit there and do nothing. It kinda felt wrong.
15 minutes later I noticed that she was still in the car in front of the house. I walked outside and asked her what she was doing. She said she was waiting for BIL to come and fix her car. I said okay and went back in. He came, fixed the car, and they both left.
Later when she came back, while we discussed how her sister and their family would have to stay with us for a few days, she brought up how I refused to help her with her car, then walked out the room. This is a classic tactic for her. Say something, then walk off.
I decided it would be a good thing for me to stand up for myself and clarify that I never refused, because she told me never mind. I also said she needs to communicate clearly if she wants something from me and not play guilt games. She got angry at this suggestion and denied that she was playing any games. She said I was the one that needed to learn how to communicate. Then she said she was not going to argue with me, and told me not to talk to her. I then left the room.
At the time I thought I was doing the right thing by trying to be direct and say what I felt, but in retrospect I think I may have made a mistake by going after her when she walked off. I should not care.
The whole interaction really upset me, and made me realize how messed up this whole sitch is. TBH, when my SIL and her kids showed up later, I went into my room to be alone. I sat on the closet floor, and bawled my eyes out.
After I got it out of my system, I did some reading in the codependency book. It seemed like the right information at the right time. Unfortunately too late to save my M, but not too late to help me survive this D.
(Dang, I wrote another book chapter. Extra points to anyone who made it to the end!)
The whole interaction really upset me, and made me realize how messed up this whole sitch is. TBH, when my SIL and her kids showed up later, I went into my room to be alone. I sat on the closet floor, and bawled my eyes out.
Dude I feel for you. Trust me it will get better. She is going to continue to test you.
Stay strong my friend!
Thanks for the support, LH19. Is your D final? I don't see it in your thread.
No still in the process. I am in a good place though. I am very excited about the life I have in front of me.
You will get there too.
Thanks!
So something to add to my last post (I'll try to keep this shorter). I had a talk with S10 later that night, after I had pulled myself together and left the closet.
S10 was very upset about the D. He's been talking about it more since he saw the IC. So he starts laying out for me all of his concerns. The whole convo really broke my heart.
He said he thinks God saw that his life was too happy and wanted to take something away from him. He feels like he just can't be happy any more. I told him it's hard to see now, but he can be happy in the future. I told him God doesn't work that way, and he actually agreed to go to church with me this weekend (he usually hates going).
I started crying and he asked me why his mommy never cries. I told him he needed to talk to her about that. (I know it's all part of her facade, but it's starting to make S10 think she doesn't care.)
He told me he's scared to talk to mommy or tell her things that might upset her - he's afraid she'll get mad. I can now see how this is W using her anger to control people.
He asked me why we were getting a D. I've already gone down the path of telling him that this wasn't my decision, so I decided to try something my IC suggested. I told him there were things both his mommy and I had done to hurt the M. He wanted to know what I had done, and I decided to tell him some mistakes I made (not being affectionate enough, not going on dates enough with her, not saying ILY enough). I figured this was an opportunity for me to teach him some important things about showing love to someone. I told him he should try to remember these things when he's older and with someone.
Then he told me he's afraid the same thing (D) would happen to him when he's older. That hit me so hard that I couldn't really come up with a good response. I just hugged him and told him I loved him.
I have so much anger for W. This D is going to really mess up my kids. It's hard to not feel responsible in part for what's happening to them.
Like they say, it's a marathon, not a sprint. But this marathon is for me and my kids. My W is no longer a participant.
Holding,
Feeling so much pain for your S10 right now, and of course, for you. How WONDERFUL, though, that he can open up and have that kind of conversation with you. I think you handled it beautifully. Sometimes there ARE no more words, just hugs. And those are moments that will turn him into the kind of man that you are- a good, kind man who loves his family.
You hang in there. Praying for your sitch and also the devastation to your area from Harvey. The photos from TV are just heart-wrenching.
You're a good man, holding, and you're doing right by your kids. Hold on to that. Thinking about that will keep you going when you can't go anymore.
I know what you mean about the anger. My STBXW is a master of that game, too. I was (maybe still am) afraid of her temper, and when she gets mad, I STILL feel bad and have to fight the urge to try to do something to make her feel better. Recognizing that it's manipulation in and of itself isn't something I've really thought about. I don't know if I can be doodler, and send the anger right back at her, but I'm hoping that being more aware of it helps. Thanks for posting about it, man.
Standing up for yourself was good -- it's also a great example for your kids to see you stand up to her and not be steamrolled. She will stop treating you that way when she learns it doesn't work.
Also good for you not to play her game. When she said never mind you said okay instead of taking the bait.
Excellent job with your son too. The fact that bad things happen and you can still have a wonderful life is a good lesson for him to learn.
Acc
Anyway, W was trying to go to the grocery to get supplies, and she called me from the driveway to say her car was not starting and she needed me to jump-start it. She had this problem with her car before her trip to Europe, and she never took care of it. I'm thinking to myself, this is the perfect opportunity for her to see what life will be like without me. I was also taken aback by the way she seemed to be angry while asking for my help. I reluctantly decided I would do it if she would be able to ask me in a nice way.
Personally I think you handled this poorly. First of all, why do you think she was angry with you, or angry at all? That's just mind-reading. Maybe she was just really frustrated, after all there was a natural disaster going on and in the middle of it her car won't start. If you felt she was asking angrily, a validating thing to do would have been to say "Are you angry at me? It sounds like it, but maybe you're just frustrated?" Jumping to the conclusion that she is angry and acting out accordingly is classic passive/aggressive behavior.
So I ask her if she's sure it's her battery. She told me the sounds it was making and was getting frustrated. This is the classic rescue situation she sets up, where she's frustrated with a problem and I would always swoop in to help her and fix things.
Am I understanding right, you were in the house and she was out in the driveway? Why wouldn't you just go out there?
I also said she needs to communicate clearly if she wants something from me and not play guilt games.
But she DID communicate clearly, here is what you wrote:
"she called me from the driveway to say her car was not starting and she needed me to jump-start it"
What is confusing about that? This all comes off as you trying to punish her, not as you standing up for yourself. And I imagine that's exactly how she sees it.
I'm not trying to beat you up, I mean we do counsel to give the WAS time and space. But I think your timing was all wrong, it was kind of an emergency situation and she did ask you for help, you should have provided it. It's different if she doesn't ask for help and you keep trying to help anyway, that's pursuit. But in this case she asked.
I can't remember if there is an OM in your sitch. If there is, then you shouldn't help. WW knows exactly who is dependable. And she needs to learn to depend on OM to see that he isn't someone who can be depended on. Now if the OM is not in the picture, then help out. But being nice and always available will not help you in winning back your spouse who is chasing OM.
holding says he's not trying to save this marriage -- so no need to validate or cater to W
Thanks for the support Leah, EastTN, and Acc.
Tread, I believe there is an OM, but it may be long distance (unless there are multiple OMs).
AS, you always do a good job of holding my feet to the fire, and I appreciate your efforts. You make me think hard about my actions and motivations.
My wife's anger is something I can easily detect. It comes out in her tone of voice very readily. That said, I did make an assumption that she was angry with me instead of the situation. That assumption colored my approach, but I did still have a willingness to help her if she asked me. For the record, she did not ask me, she said she needed me to do it. Her barking orders at me is a longstanding issue in our M, and I've repeatedly asked her to stop.
Holding,
Then you should leave her to fend for herself. My W would end upon situations and call me for help. And then OM would get treated like some God for doing nothing. If I had to do this all over again. I wouldn't have she's a single tear in front of her. And told her to call ON if he so much better.
holding,
You should've offered to ride her to the store.
You should've offered to ride her to the store.
I actually couldn't since her car was blocking mine in the driveway. And she dumped the "nevermind" on me before things could get to that point.
holding,
I wasn't serious. It was an attempt at using cowboy talk to create a double entendre. It didn't work. It's my ex-wife's fault.
Doodler, I suspected a joke from you, but thought you might have been having a rare serious moment.
But yes, it's still your XW's fault.
holding,
You should've offered to ride her to the store.
H'yah! Move em out, girl!
For the record, she did not ask me, she said she needed me to do it. Her barking orders at me is a longstanding issue in our M, and I've repeatedly asked her to stop.
Ah, I see what you're saying. I guess part of my problem here is I always imagine everyone's WAS to be like mine, my W was actually pretty polite and cordial throughout but others here are dealing with raving bi***es so that definitely requires a different dynamic!
holding,
You should've offered to ride her to the store.
I laughed, and then I laughed again and the double-meaning there whether intended or not
laughed again *at* the double-meaning. Really should proof ALL my posts before hitting submit!
Holding,
I spent the last two days reading all of your threads. You are a good writer!
It's heartbreaking to see a family split apart but want you to know 1 it's clear how much you have grown as a person through all this, 2 how awesome you are as a father to your boys and 3 what a great support group you have, especially dusty, acc, and as.
Some thoughts:
I think the thing about sex/the snip/no daughter is a really big deal between you and w. I think you know that. I don't think you are trying to save your m now but you may still want to have that painful discussion to at least try to close the door on that issue. You may not want to and that is fine, but do it for yourself if you feel you did something wrong and want to clear your conscience. She may never forgive you but that's not up to you.
S14 is at an age where he wants to spend less time with you and the D exacerbates that. You are going to have to try harder on that one. I have found that doing things together does the trick in terms of getting mine to open up. Go to an Astros game or something else he likes where you spend a lot of time together. And all guy vacations are awesome by the way.
I agree with your suspicions about OM. You have no idea what is actually going on. You have suspected EA or PA but I don't think you considered FA. FA is where it's all in your W's head so she honestly thinks she has done nothing wrong but she has placed another man in her heart and has a fantasy about building a new life with him and starting over. Before my own situation, I didn't think a fantasy could bring down a m but little did I know. The FAP is a real person in my case but there are others on here where it is a celebrity or an online buddy who they have never met IRL.
I hope you are on dry ground. I have lived through hurricanes so I have a lot of empathy for you.
I understand some people just get very angry with their spouse after BD. But I do believe that anger is misplaced. Personally I never did get angry with W, I understood it wasn't easy for her, that she felt like she needed to do it to save herself, that she was confused, and most of all that she didn't hate me, that she just didn't want to be married anymore. I really don't see it as being her fault. Our M had been on autopilot for a long, long time. That was as much my fault as hers. What I never realized until it was too late is that while autopilot was OK for me, it was not for her.
Anyway I guess what I'm saying is that I truly feel my XW and I resolved things quicker and easier by remaining cordial and open to discussion throughout. I am not saying it was easy, but it was a lot easier than it could have been. And for me that was a large part of saving myself. A long, ugly court battle would have sent me into depression and anxiety all over again.
AS,
I don't want to hijack but just thought this was beautiful and loving and realistic. You aren't in fantasy land clinging to hope but you also don't feel like you need to hate your spouse to detach and move on. Thank you.
I spent the last two days reading all of your threads. You are a good writer!
Thanks! Writing's always been a passion of mine. My sister tells me I should turn my whole sitch into a novel. Maybe one day...
It's heartbreaking to see a family split apart but want you to know 1 it's clear how much you have grown as a person through all this, 2 how awesome you are as a father to your boys and 3 what a great support group you have, especially dusty, acc, and as.
Thanks again. Yes, my support here has been great and I'm very thankful.
On the sex/the snip/no daughter issue: Very early in my sitch, probably a week after BD, I did sincerely apologize for this. And since then I've told her how much I regret making the decision without her input, and how I would do things so differently if I had a time machine. Right now I just have too much anger to do this again, and I don't think it'll change anything for my W. But I have thought about saying or writing something when I cool down, possibly post-D. Thanks for the suggestion.
Yeah, s14 has been very difficult lately. But thanks for encouraging me to be more persistent with him. It's honestly hard to find things to get him out of the house for. Dinner and a movie is the one thing that's worked for me. I guess I'll try to play that card again.
EA/PA/FA: I haven't read or heard too much about the FA, so thanks. An FA definitely happened in the beginning of my sitch (I found out this was actually pre-BD) where she was flirting with random guys on Facebook. Since then she's moved on to at least an EA. Her heart has been checked out for a while. The FA was something I felt I could easily forgive. The EA and possible PA - I'm not so sure about forgiving those.
I hope you are on dry ground. I have lived through hurricanes so I have a lot of empathy for you.
Yes, I'm fine now, thanks. I guess I never mentioned that we'd made it through ok. There was no impact to my home or job, or to the kids school. I faced a big one back in '05, so I'm a hurricane expert at this point
I actually read an e book by a guy who did in fact turn his situation into a memoir. It was helpful to see him through the whole arc of his process. If you feel you addressed the snip issue, no need to re tread. I just do think it's helpful to all no matter the outcome to actually apologize for the legitimate actions you regret whether or not forgiveness is given. Good to hear you are on dry ground.
Time for a long post, or as I call it, "Free therapy".
Here are 2 recent text interactions that show how my W is trying to rattle my cage and use her anger to control me.
This first scenario happened while I was at work:
W: I need a copy of your most recent paycheck
(Notice how she didn't ask?)
Me: Why
W: Need it for legal stuff
Me: For the divorce?
W: Yes
(I quickly emailed my lawyer, and she said not to provide it to my W.)
Me: My lawyer will take care of my pay stubs
W: Thanks for your cooperation
W: From now on any paper work you request from me can go through the attorney
W: You will be in charge of setting up October bills since I have done the last 2 months.
(I never responded.)
On to the second scenario. W's laptop has been acting up. In the past I always fixed her computer, but she brought it to the computer store to have them look at it. While I was cutting the grass today she texted me:
W: Take a look at your external hard drive and tell me the last time we backed up my laptop. My hard drive is unrecoverable
(Notice how, once again, this is phrased as a command.)
Me: Sorry to hear. I'm cutting the grass right now
Me: Also if you'd like me to do something for you, you need to ask me, not tell me
(We've secretly replaced a NG husband with one who sets boundaries and will not tolerate being barked at. Let's see if she notices.)
W: Jesus Christ
W: Shut up
W: Forget I texted you
(Again, I never responded.)
Both these interactions remind me of the old joke - Why does divorce cost so much? Because it's worth it!
Good job at responding calmly but firmly and not responding to her temper tantrums
Love it! Reading these posts helps me strangle the NG in me every day.
Holding,
Great job at staying firm and not losing your cool in the process.
Joejoe1
Goodness me, like a child. Not even a teenager. You did well, holding.
I managed to look through the trash bags of art and crafting supplies W was throwing out. There were several pieces of artwork and notes from our kids that I wanted to keep. Going through the bags and looking at everything made me an emotional mess. It also made me realize that my kids (especially S14) have always preferred me, and my W was always jealous and resentful of me for that.
At one point I was kind of absently ranting at W and crying, and S14 walked in (he had been asleep) and asked who I was talking to and what was wrong. I had to quickly pull myself together.
Something I've been thinking about: Should I tell W that I intend to try to keep the house in the D? It will be so much easier for the kids, even if it's a financial hardship for me. My keeping it also hinges on my ability to get child support payments from W (who makes more than me). If I tell her, it might motivate her to move out, although she said she wasn't planning to move until the house is sold. So do y'all think I should tell her?
holding, I am in the same boat with the house as you know. The W had proposed some co-owning the home scenario after divorce to stabilize the kids and we would be the ones that move in and out when we had the kids. I said no because its a terrible idea. IMO I wouldn't tell your wife your intentions yet, I did the same thing and she had the house market valued $25,000 above what I can get for it, coincidentally that is the same value as one of her 401k funds!
It also made me realize that my kids (especially S14) have always preferred me, and my W was always jealous and resentful of me for that.
I had the very same experience. My sons always preferred me and they still do. They'll find any excuse to come see me.
Something I've been thinking about: Should I tell W that I intend to try to keep the house in the D?
Don't tell her until you talked with a lawyer. I purposely waited until mediation to let my wife know about the house and it worked in my favor, but I think that's situation dependent.
I hope you can keep your house. I kept mine and the pets stayed with me as well. Home is still home and I know it makes my sons happy that they can still come to the home they know and love.
Thanks Dusty and Doodler. Your advice has helped me to lean toward not telling her.
Dusty, I do remember that strange cohabiting proposal your W wanted - what a horror! I'm a little confused though. Did you tell your W that you wanted to keep the house?
Doodler, I have talked to my L. She said I'm free to discuss the house sitch with my W, as long as I don't fight with her. But I think it may be in my best interest to keep it to myself.
holding, a long way back I may have mentioned to her that I would like to keep the house but haven't brought it up since. I would love to keep it at least for the next school year as it could be tough to sell it now. Not really sure, need to have my money guy run some numbers for me, It would be hard financially but would be very beneficial to my kids.
holding,
Something I learned during mediation is that, in Florida, and presumably other states, the mortgage deed is not connected with the financial instrument (the bank note). My wife and I were on the mortgage, but I was the only one listed on the bank note. I'm not sure why that happened, but it gave me a lot of leverage during mediation. My lawyer, who specializes in family law, didn't know about the mortgage-bank note dichotomy. It may be worth your while to spend a little money on a real estate lawyer and review all of the official paperwork regarding your house.
In my case, my wife (at the time) simply had to quit claim the mortgage to me; there was no need to refinance the house. In addition, my wife told the mediator she only had $100 left in her checking account and the mediator told me. I quickly realized she'd never be able to afford to go to court so I got to dictate the terms. (The moral of the story is not to let your wife know that you're not able to afford going to court if you can't come to an agreement during mediation.)