The 11th hour

[Fof3]

Not sure how to start this......I have just recently found this site, read a lot (this site and the DR book) and have a question on whether or not to try the 180 or the LRT. A little bit of my SITCH....

Many of my W complaints are valid about our M. Although there isn't any EA or PA with either of us (that i know of) I haven't been emotionally supportive, at times demeaning/disrespectful, quick to anger, and not very compassionate in the last many years. I have acknowledged and accepted that i need to attend IC and have done so since the BD.

September of 2016, my W stated we need to see a MC and that moving forward with our M depended on it. I hesitated at first but ultimately made us an appointment. We went to 6 MC sessions before she left the MC session in tears. The MC stated that we should both see IC before attempting MC again. We both agreed to do so. My W went to IC right away. I hesitated, thinking it hasn't helped me in the past. My failure to act i believe forced her hand of the BD.

Since the BD my W stated she needs time and space. I have worked away from home for the last 4 years due to distance so i would normally be gone for four days and three nights most weeks. My W stated if we could maintain status quo with this schedule we could continue cohabitation. The first month and a half since the BD I was doing everything wrong; i.e. pleading, clingy, promises of change, etc. My W has said that she doesn't see a way for our M to work and our M is unhealthy.
I recently accepted a job transfer closer to home which would allow me the ability to go home more. Obviously, this was not good news for her. She said if i planned on being home more someone will have to move out. I decided not to press the issue and told her i would put her needs in front of my own and continue staying at work on the days she requested. I'm finding this to be really difficult but am doing it.

I am having a really hard time.... I know i have to detach, GAL and continue to work on me, for me but i am having a difficult time doing so. When i'm home the SITCH is awkward but somewhat enjoyable. We still do things as a family and at times spend some alone time together (nothing intimate).

I tried to keep this as brief as possible (maybe too brief). So, do i try the 180 or LRT? My W has said she doesn't want to work on anything because she has tried for so many years. In essence while reading DR i felt like she was doing the LRT on me.

Thank you in advance for any input/help...

[Cadet]

Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

[KGuy]

Since the BD my W stated she needs time and space. I have worked away from home for the last 4 years due to distance so i would normally be gone for four days and three nights most weeks. My W stated if we could maintain status quo with this schedule we could continue cohabitation.
I recently accepted a job transfer closer to home which would allow me the ability to go home more. Obviously, this was not good news for her. She said if i planned on being home more someone will have to move out. I decided not to press the issue and told her i would put her needs in front of my own and continue staying at work on the days she requested. I'm finding this to be really difficult but am doing it.

We still do things as a family and at times spend some alone time together (nothing intimate).

IDK, If you can spend more time home, i would. It would fit in with the GAL but put the focus on the kids. You said you are spending time together even if awkward. They say don't believe anything they say and only 50% of what they do and i think thats applicable here. Don't push, maybe try and ask her out and court her again if she eventually accepts. She is the one that wants out remember.

[LH19]

I disagree. If your wife is asking for time and space give her time and space.

If you don't she will see that you are not listening to her.

[Fof3]

IDK, If you can spend more time home, i would. It would fit in with the GAL but put the focus on the kids. You said you are spending time together even if awkward. They say don't believe anything they say and only 50% of what they do and i think thats applicable here. Don't push, maybe try and ask her out and court her again if she eventually accepts. She is the one that wants out remember.

Thanks for the input @KGuy

I have asked her about why she ignores me during the time I am at work versus when I am at home we do things as a family. She says she is doing it for the kids, which i appreciate. The time we have spent alone has been out of coincidences rather than desire.
I will simply text her "good morning, have a good day" and she won't respond at all. I have asked her to dinner even, but she rejected the offer stating she doesn't have the desire to spend one on one time with me.

[Fof3]

LH19

Yeah, i have been. Trying to show her I can put her needs in front of mine.

[LH19]

IDK, If you can spend more time home, i would. It would fit in with the GAL but put the focus on the kids. You said you are spending time together even if awkward. They say don't believe anything they say and only 50% of what they do and i think thats applicable here. Don't push, maybe try and ask her out and court her again if she eventually accepts. She is the one that wants out remember.

Thanks for the input @KGuy

I have asked her about why she ignores me during the time I am at work versus when I am at home we do things as a family. She says she is doing it for the kids, which i appreciate. The time we have spent alone has been out of coincidences rather than desire.
I will simply text her "good morning, have a good day" and she won't respond at all. I have asked her to dinner even, but she rejected the offer stating she doesn't have the desire to spend one on one time with me.

Stop the pursuit immediately! Start planning an exciting life without her. If she wants to join this new life fine. If not, you will be just fine without her!

[Fof3]

So would you agree with the LRT being the correct course of action rather than the 180?

[LH19]

Fof3,

Start making an exciting life for you and your kids. Join a gym, start running, reconnect with old friends.

Read everything you can get your hands on regarding relationships. Knowledge is power.

Volunteer with your free time.

Make sure when you don't have your kids you are out doing something. Be mysterious.

As far as you are concerned you are going to be just fine without her in your life.

[Fof3]

Thanks for the encouraging words. I will put those ideas to work...

[Gordie]

Do you want to be emotionally unsupportive, disrespectful and demeaning to those you love? If not, do a 180 on those things. Become a better man not just towards your w but to your children and friends and other people in your life. Learn to really listen without interrupting, correcting, or fixing. Just listen, listen, listen. Only offer your opinion if solicited.

[Fof3]

Well put Gordie. I want to make all my negative attributes into positive strengths. I know i have a lot of work to do but i can do it. I just pray it's not to late.

[Fof3]

While reviewing the DR book a question came to mind. In the "Do something different" area of the M is she referring to before or after the BD? Before for me i was distant and detached from the M (on cruise control), but after the BD i have been more attentive, caring and compassionate. Just not sure what i am supposed to be changing. The new behavior or the old

[Gordie]

Read the whole book. There is a lot of trial and error involved. Do what works. Stop doing what doesn't. If giving her a lot of time and space to be alone calms her, then do that. If she feels you are ignoring her and gets angry, stop doing that. If giving her attention makes her angry, stop doing that. If giving her attention opens her up to you, then keep doing that. Does that make sense? There's no one recipe that will work for all situations so you need to experiment to see what works for you. If you read enough threads you will find people in similar situations and you can learn from them too. Take one day at a time.

[Fof3]

That makes sense... Thanks Gordie

[AnotherStander]

While reviewing the DR book a question came to mind. In the "Do something different" area of the M is she referring to before or after the BD? Before for me i was distant and detached from the M (on cruise control), but after the BD i have been more attentive, caring and compassionate. Just not sure what i am supposed to be changing. The new behavior or the old

Hello and welcome to the forums! Please try and read as many of Sandi's posts as you can, she was a WAW and she can give you a lot of insight into what your W is thinking and feeling right now. Right now you are making the mistake a lot of us make/ made, you are trying to shower her with attention to make up for the lack of it during the M. While on the face of it this may seem like a "180" and the "right thing to do", it does not take into account your W's mentality right now, which is that she is DONE and wants NOTHING to do with you. So the more you try to show her how affectionate you can be, the more disgusted and repulsed she gets. And I'm not kidding with those words, that's how she feels about your advances right now. She's asking for space and you're doing the opposite! You need to give her what she wants. Space is what she wants, pursuit is what YOU want. Separation is what she wants, staying together is what YOU want. For once in your M, you have to quit putting your own needs in front of hers. It will be the hardest thing you ever do, but you've got to back off and quit pressuring her.

There is every reason to hang onto hope, if you can remove the pressure from her she will quit feeling like she needs to escape ASAP and she may put things in neutral. Then that will give you time to show her your improvements, and you'll need a LOT of time for that because at first she'll think they're just tricks to get her back. Eventually she'll realize you really have changed and maybe then she'll start being attracted to you again.

You've got to be patient, we're not kidding when we say this is a marathon. You're looking at many months or even a year or more. But hang in there, DBing takes time but it is effective.

[KGuy]

Let me clarify what i meant in my post. It seems to me that your work has taken you away from your family. As part of GAL, take advantage of the change in the job sitch and focus on the kids and the best way would be to be at home with them.

I guess i misunderstood the part where you said you spend time together and thought when you were there you were enjoying each other's copmpany. If she has been rejecting your advances, then stop that altogether and detach. Focus on other things. Take your kids out of the house as much as possible and give her space while taking advantage of the change in job sitch to spend more time doing GAL things.

[Fof3]

While reviewing the DR book a question came to mind. In the "Do something different" area of the M is she referring to before or after the BD? Before for me i was distant and detached from the M (on cruise control), but after the BD i have been more attentive, caring and compassionate. Just not sure what i am supposed to be changing. The new behavior or the old

Hello and welcome to the forums! Please try and read as many of Sandi's posts as you can, she was a WAW and she can give you a lot of insight into what your W is thinking and feeling right now. Right now you are making the mistake a lot of us make/ made, you are trying to shower her with attention to make up for the lack of it during the M. While on the face of it this may seem like a "180" and the "right thing to do", it does not take into account your W's mentality right now, which is that she is DONE and wants NOTHING to do with you. So the more you try to show her how affectionate you can be, the more disgusted and repulsed she gets. And I'm not kidding with those words, that's how she feels about your advances right now. She's asking for space and you're doing the opposite! You need to give her what she wants. Space is what she wants, pursuit is what YOU want. Separation is what she wants, staying together is what YOU want. For once in your M, you have to quit putting your own needs in front of hers. It will be the hardest thing you ever do, but you've got to back off and quit pressuring her.

There is every reason to hang onto hope, if you can remove the pressure from her she will quit feeling like she needs to escape ASAP and she may put things in neutral. Then that will give you time to show her your improvements, and you'll need a LOT of time for that because at first she'll think they're just tricks to get her back. Eventually she'll realize you really have changed and maybe then she'll start being attracted to you again.

You've got to be patient, we're not kidding when we say this is a marathon. You're looking at many months or even a year or more. But hang in there, DBing takes time but it is effective.

Very helpful.... Thank you.

Question.... I have an interview next week which would bring me even closer to home and it wouldn't give me a place to stay away from home the few nights a week like i am now (like she wants). I would like to do this to have a more concrete schedule, more time off to spend with the kids and more time for GAL'ing. However, I don't want this to be perceived by her that this is me pursuing. Plus, like you stated above I need to give her the time and space she has requested. This career move might take some of that space away (unless I find someplace to stay those few nights).

[sandi2]

Great insight Sandi2... What consequences do they need to see/experience for them to wake up per say?

Hi, I saw your message on another thread.

To answer your question, first let me explain something else. I believe there are two sets of women, so to speak, that often require a difference in the approach. The woman who leaves the M b/c her H was abusive or was involved in something she could not tolerate in her life, and she has to leave him in order to survive. IMHO, this woman is the walk away wife. The DR book gives excellent advice in how to deal with a WAW. There is another type of woman who is a different animal from the woman who basically runs from her H, to survive. This woman is wayward. MWD does not separate the WAW and WW in her books. After years of reading and observing these two distinct types, I began using the term WW in my posts. If you read my previous post, where I gave a short description, it will help save space and time here.

As long as a WW benefits from both sides in her life (the marriage and family activities on one side......and the GGW lifestyle and OM on the other), the chances of her turning away from her waywardness are very slim. However, when she begins losing the benefits of being M to you, and loses having family activities.......due to her wayward lifestyle, those are consequences she has to face. When she can't finance a swanky new apartment, or buy the pretty clothes she wants b/c every penny goes to supporting herself.......those are consequences from her bad choices. Life is going to have consequences when you make stupid choices.

The WW is filled with a fantasy that she created. It takes learning a few things from the school of hard knocks, before some WW's begin to get the picture that it stems from their crazy, stupid, wayward choices. For others, they might wise up sooner, depending on the tough love the H has. I think it takes them losing "something" that really matters to them, before seeing effective results. The H cannot control his WW, but he can control what he does, and he does not have to roll over and play dead while she wipes her feet on him.

When a man has a wife who is wayward, he needs to get in touch with his values, standards, spiritual beliefs, and integrity. If he doesn't, he will be lost as to what he should do. He needs to know where he stands as a man, and know what he will tolerate and not tolerate in his life. With a WW, he will need to set boundaries. Not for her, but to protect himself from her disrespectful behavior toward him. No boundaries should ever include any acts of violence (just want to make that clear). If she does not honor/respect your personal boundary, then you are the one who responds with some type action to protect yourself. You cannot make her do anything.

An example of a boundary would be: I will not tolerate being cursed, screamed at, or other bad behavior during a phone conversation.

Consequences of disrespecting your boundary: I will disconnect the call without further notice and will not respond if my W tries to call back.

You are not telling her what to do. You are protecting your feelings from her disrespectful behavior. The consequences, should she choose to ignore your boundary, is to hear the disconnected call, and you not responding when she radials or texts you.

Make sense? There is a link about boundaries on the page Cadet sent you.

It's not your job to parent your W. It's not your job to punish her. Your job is to protect yourself, your kids, and your property. Just as we have property boundaries and would sit by while others destroyed it, you have to do the same for your self respect. You can learn how to stand by your boundaries, and enforce them with effective consequences.

[Cristy]

Question.... I have an interview next week which would bring me even closer to home and it wouldn't give me a place to stay away from home the few nights a week like i am now (like she wants). I would like to do this to have a more concrete schedule, more time off to spend with the kids and more time for GAL'ing. However, I don't want this to be perceived by her that this is me pursuing. Plus, like you stated above I need to give her the time and space she has requested. This career move might take some of that space away (unless I find someplace to stay those few nights).

Hello Fof3,

I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.

Focus all of your time, effort and energy into being the best Fof3 and Dad that only a fool would leave. Getting a job closer to home allowing you a more concrete schedule and time with your kids is a good thing, right? (Not to mention a complete 180.)When you get the job make it all about the kids.

Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.

Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004

[Fof3]

Hello all... I want to give an update to how things are going. This last week on my days off I made it a point to go out and GAL. I went out cycling, went out with friends and concentrated on doing activities with the kids. All in all it was pretty good. I put on a happy face (even when sad) whenever i was around the WAW.

I received a text this morning from her saying "Something seems off with you. Is there something you want to tell me?" I just validated her statement by saying "No. Anything specific? What would make you feel better?" She replied with "It's not about me, it's about you. You seem off. Have you reached a point where your angry with me? I feel like your up to something." I again just tried to validate by saying "I can see how you would feel that way. I am just working on myself." That's it.... My first thought was maybe she has noticed my distance and me GAL. But then the gremlins sneak in my head. Maybe I'm doing more harm than good. Maybe my frustrations are creeping out in a way i don't notice (a look, a tone of voice, etc.)

An example of my frustrations are sometimes i feel like my WAW uses our daughter as a pawn to elicit a response from me. Such as her planning activities with our daughter on one or two of the days i am home (which is the only time i get to spend with her) but i rationalize her actions to minimize my frustrations.

Any thoughts?

[Guzzard]

It sounds to me like you followed the process and handled it well. Though I am new to this, so take my statement with a grain of salt

[KGuy]

Maybe make plans in advance on the days you are off with your D and let the W know about them? Maybe even invite the W if you feel like it, but if you feel like you would struggle too much "putting a happy face on", then don't invite her. Just connect with your D. If the W tries to interfere with those plans, then enforce your boundary.

I wish i could do as good as you on the boundary setting and validation phrases.

[Fof3]

Maybe make plans in advance on the days you are off with your D and let the W know about them? Maybe even invite the W if you feel like it, but if you feel like you would struggle too much "putting a happy face on", then don't invite her. Just connect with your D. If the W tries to interfere with those plans, then enforce your boundary.

I wish i could do as good as you on the boundary setting and validation phrases.

Thanks Guzzard...
KGuy, making any plans known sounds like a good idea. I have been operating as if things between us hasn't changed (when it comes to our daughter).
That validation this morning wasn't easy. Constantly fighting myself to not get too involved when it comes to R talk....

[sandi2]

From what I have seen, most WW's do not see their H being happy and having a full life without her. She sees herself moving on with a great life, while he pines away for her. So, when he is not showing the reaction she had mentally pictured.........it surprises her and she wants to know what's going on with him. She is curious, maybe even suspicious. Don't be surprised if you see moodiness, resentment, or other signs of anger that's connected to you appearing happy and enjoying life without her. Although it makes no sense to you......it boils down to her illogical, egotistical mindset. She said it wasn't about her, but she lied. Everything is about her!

Keep your calendar full of GAL activities. Keep a healthy balance between doing things with your kids.... and finding time for yourself......and GAL with adults.

[RR17]

Sani2, you have seen the opposition's playbook and are so helpful.

[Fof3]

From what I have seen, most WW's do not see their H being happy and having a full life without her. She sees herself moving on with a great life, while he pines away for her. So, when he is not showing the reaction she had mentally pictured.........it surprises her and she wants to know what's going on with him. She is curious, maybe even suspicious. Don't be surprised if you see moodiness, resentment, or other signs of anger that's connected to you appearing happy and enjoying life without her. Although it makes no sense to you......it boils down to her illogical, egotistical mindset. She said it wasn't about her, but she lied. Everything is about her!

Keep your calendar full of GAL activities. Keep a healthy balance between doing things with your kids.... and finding time for yourself......and GAL with adults.

Will do sandi2, thanks for the input..... It's hard to continue down this path of DBing when i know it's affecting her in this manner. I know i have just begun to see the effects of DBing and I know i'm doing this for the right reasons, but it's still hard. Especially when i want more than anything for us to reconcile. The hard part is going to be how to judge if and when to engage in R talks with her.
This week our youngest daughter will be away from home with friends. So I am trying to think positive thoughts about our interactions without her there. I will be planning as much GAL events as possible to minimize any alone time withe her...

[RR17]

Fof3, let her bring up the R. Don't do it. Read Sandi2's rules and study Validation for when these talks take place.

[sandi2]

Will do sandi2, thanks for the input..... It's hard to continue down this path of DBing when i know it's affecting her in this manner. I know i have just begun to see the effects of DBing and I know i'm doing this for the right reasons, but it's still hard. Especially when i want more than anything for us to reconcile. The hard part is going to be how to judge if and when to engage in R talks with her.

Think of it as you working on the M. Most guys have opposite ideas of working on the M, and it just pulls them further away. In most cases, things get worse before getting better, but it won't take as long if you maintain a plan of moving forward, improving yourself as a man, GAL, 180's, and reaching personal goals.

This week our youngest daughter will be away from home with friends. So I am trying to think positive thoughts about our interactions without her there. I will be planning as much GAL events as possible to minimize any alone time withe her...

Good idea. When it comes to interactions, the best description I've read is the store checkout clerk. She may smile and speak to you.......and you follow suit. She may make small talk about the weather, say something to your child, or whatever. You reply with the same level of politeness/friendliness. When the business transaction is complete, you leave the store. You don't ask her personal questions. You don't try to pick her up. You don't initiate physical affection. You don't hold up the checkout line by finding something to talk about to her. See what I mean? It's a professional decorum......light, friendly, and then you are on your way.

I suggest that you do not view this week as a time to get closer to your W. Use the checkout clerk for your example of interaction. Stay away from the house as much as possible. Stay away from her, as much as possible. Really pull back. She'll notice even more while D is gone this week....so use it in your favor. Do not initiate relationship talks! You are not interested in R talks. If she initiates a R talk, you do one thing and one thing only.......LISTEN. You may nod your head occasionally, but you do not engage by expressing your thoughts and feelings. You see, most H's who have the NGS will want to tell their WW how they "feel", and remind them once again that they don't want a divorce. Well, stop doing it. Do not tell her you don't want a D. Don't talk about your feelings! She doesn't care about your feelings....or what you think. Your feelings and thoughts should be a complete mystery to her as long as she stays in this wayward condition. Therefore, just listen and don't show emotion.

If her talk becomes an onslaught of put downs or other forms of verbal disrespect........you need to immediately leave the house. Don't stand there and tolerate disrespect. You don't tell her anything, just leave. Here's the thing, R talks are not the solution when there's a WW. At best, you might feel better for venting, but I promise you it has settled nothing and everything resumes the next day. Why? B/c she has not changed, and you can't fix her or the MR by having R talks. I know how frustrating it is when you can't talk it out. However, it puts the H at a disadvantage to share his feelings and thoughts with a WW. Actually, she should be concerned about what you may thinking and feeling. The only way to communicate with a wayward is through action.

So, this week I want you to act as if you are a little excited about your life. You don't tell her that. You just have a good attitude. Don't over kill. Be mysterious. She'll ask questions. Don't lie, but give vague answers. She'll get angry, but so what? She's angry b/c she can't manipulate you. Waywards are jealous, and she'll want to know details, but don't give her anything. This is a good time to do things out of the norm, for you. Like, not being there for dinner (or if you normally cook dinner......not cooking dinner), going out on a work night, going out of the room to take phone calls, looking at your watch often and then leaving. Getting a call and then quickly getting ready and leave. Buy a different brand, more expensive, cologne, get something new to wear, change something about yourself.

Okay, now some may say this is playing games, or trying to make her jealous, or acting as if you are having an affair. No, that's not the point. The point is making you appear more interesting. The point is to relate a message, and that message tells her you can have an enjoyable personal life without her.......and, you don't have to give her an account. She has lost interest in you. She is bored with you. She is centered on herself. So, have a little fun this week, and let her think whatever.

I do not encourage men to flirt or go out with other women, in order to make their WW jealous. I think it complicates things when you bring another party into the mix. So, just want to make that clear. You are just being mysterious by doing things out of your normal routine. This is therapy, of sorts, for you. Find something to do, if nothing but go to a bookstore and read. Don't sit home spending time with her. Give her a lot of space.

[Fof3]

WOW sandi2..... Thanks so much for all the insight. I am definitely my own worst enemy by over thinking everything right now but i am going to make a conscious effort to GAL this week. A lot of really good points you are making. I will let you all know how it goes. Wish me luck 😅