Not a newcomer to crazy land but only recently been reading stuff here and realised that if it quacks like an MLC duck...
Quick summary. Much loved, much younger H. Very happy, but always knew H had a few unpolished dents from own family and surviving a fire at 15 where 2 other family members died.
Then life got really hard...H and me had first big marital bust-up ever over something very weird in Aug 14. (Unbeknownst to me, that was when he started talking to co-worker.) We talked, repaired a bit...then 33 days later, people started dying. Lost friends, cat, his grandmother and then my father to pancreatic cancer in June 2015. Both of us a bit numb, H unhappy with job & gets new one in May 2015. Means him being away from home but we discuss & agree to try it. H living in aunt's flat during week, home weekends. I notice he's not 'himself', ask - H falls apart, BD. EA which he denies was PA (probably believe him but EA ended he said because she wouldn't be his 'friend' unless he left me!). H diagnosed with OCD/depression in Nov 2015 & starts seeing psychiatrist. Refuses to come home but talking a bit.
Meanwhile, on the other side of the street, my mother disappears quickly into vascular dementia Nov 2015. Doesn't know who I am by Jan 2016. In care home by March 2016 but no power of attorney so have to apply to court to deal with her affairs in April 2016.
H stops communicating completely after coming home for Christmas until April 2016. Then wants to meet and try to 'work together as a team'. Still obviously ill - you know the routine, shark eyes, blank face, texts like a teenager. Week after spending day together in May 2016, says wants D by text. No reason given & won't talk at all. I say not what I want, but can't stop him so let's deal with practicalities calmly. Nope, he won't communicate about money, house etc either. (H has continued to work through this time, relatively high pressured job in financial services. I run my own - limping - business still.) First clue that PA was when I received anonymous death threats by email in July 2016. H unconcerned. Denies PA/EA until Aug 2016 when admits to 'seeing someone for a couple of months'.
I decide to put house on market in Dec 2016, but then tell him delayed because need surgery for cancer...no reply. Get D papers through door on Jan 6th 2017. H still won't communicate directly, even with his own lawyer. Still seeing psychiatrist & now says D making him too ill to deal with D...
I move out April 2017 to rent little house by the sea for own sanity...June 2016 H finally produces some D paperwork which shows some pretty shocking stuff including PA, huge debt, fraud and secret part-time life with PA a few miles from our old house from about July 2016. And stole the watch he bought for my 50th and refuses to return it. Same one he cried over when he gave me 'because he wanted me to know everyday how special I was'. Go figure...And PA's FB page is full of wedding dresses. And now I know her name I realise she kept popping up on my LinkedIn for the last year or so. Finally hit my WTF wall...my lawyer wants to refer D to court to protect me as H's behaviour makes all the sensible low cost options impossible. I'm just about to say yes to that when...WTF...H pops up from undergrowth wanting to talk (unseen since Oct 16 and unheard of since Feb 2017 by email).
We talk for 5 mins before I go to visit friends in Florida for a week. H has no idea what he wants to talk about or why, just thinks 'talking would be good'. By time I get back, H has decided a) we can't talk about anything substantive as he'd finding D so difficult b) but thinks we should now 'chat' every other day on the phone and c) when 'this is all done', we can talk 'properly' as he knows he 'left me in a bit of a vacuum'.
I could feel something had shifted but told him no thank you. That I couldn't talk to people who lie to me, steal from me and treat me with no respect. H says understands that he needs to 'earn my trust' and 'wants to salvage something kind from this horrible mess'. We agree it's a horrible mess and I point out that it is his horrible mess not mine, and I'm leaving him to it. I say we can communicate about practicalities by email. That this has never made sense to me and I expect we won't talk again. H says "I refuse to accept that paradigm...' and makes noises suggesting that 'things aren't as I think they are...not physically anywhere near where I think (PA's house)'. Blah, blah, blah. You've all been here...you know the WTF script right? And that pompous tone of voice? And the me-me, lets's feel sorry for me thing?
I'm summarising 2+ years of hell here, of course. I love my H very much. That has never changed. Lots of other emotions too...shock, bewilderment, grief, pain, anger, frustration. Still shocked sometimes by all of it and the endless supply of new WTF chaos and mad Catch 22s. Losing my father, husband and mother within 4 months nearly killed me, tbh. It broke me into immeasurably small pieces and I was suicidal twice. Did all the things you did. Same mistakes. Turned myself inside out trying to figure out how my life became this and why my H turned into an alien.
What brought me here? Three things.
1. I always felt that the OCD/depression diagnosis was a symptom not a cause after the first few months. Partly because H is just as he should be after more than 18 months of psychiatrist, CBT and industrial quantities of drugs. Partly because H's behaviour was getting more WTF not better. Mostly because my gut said it was some kind of identity crisis and he'd turned into a sort of anti-H opposite of himself, and I've learned to trust my gut.
2. I came here a week or so ago, and was reading story after story that felt like my life and like my H.
3. I've just read Shining's story and it felt like where I am trying to be, or get to.
I love my DH - did I say that? - and I wanted to believe he would reemerge from the fog. But as the WTF stuff piled up, I started to force myself into looking at what I didn't want to. Little building blocks of acceptance. The two biggest ones were realising that more after 18 months, none of this made sense and it wasn't getting better and staying here was literally killing me. So I started to accept what it is, to accept that my M was dead and that my H was lost somewhere dark. To stop hoping for H or my M in order to start finding hope for me. To find the difference between surviving and living because I was tired of just surviving. The second was choosing a couple of days ago to detach enough to say no thank you to his 'chatting' plan because I could see how crazy it was and how it wasn't going to help me. I don't doubt it was the right choice for me but it was a hard and sad one to make.
I guess the help I'm looking for now is to fight my way towards emotionally detaching, not just logically detaching if that makes sense. I need to build a new life. I need to be brave enough to stop secretly hoping for a miracle. I need to stop H being the first thing I think of when I wake up or talking to him in my head. And I need to do that a few weeks away from our D being final, while he is behaving like an idiot and a selfish child in the D process and while he is probably going to keep trying to pop back up on my radar.
I don't want to but I know I have to, if that makes sense. I need to feel like me again instead of the battered version. I want a life without lies and WTF and destruction and confusion and H seems to like living there, so he has to go. I don't regret a moment of our relationship, imperfect as all of them are, and I hate this inconceivable mess. But hating it doesn't change it. Maybe I want to detach too because I want to protect the things I treasured in our M and in my H before he finishes destroying my memories too.
Sorry this is so long.
I guess the help I'm looking for now is to fight my way towards emotionally detaching, not just logically detaching if that makes sense. I need to build a new life. I need to be brave enough to stop secretly hoping for a miracle. I need to stop H being the first thing I think of when I wake up or talking to him in my head. And I need to do that a few weeks away from our D being final, while he is behaving like an idiot and a selfish child in the D process and while he is probably going to keep trying to pop back up on my radar.
I don't want to but I know I have to, if that makes sense. I need to feel like me again instead of the battered version. I want a life without lies and WTF and destruction and confusion and H seems to like living there, so he has to go. I don't regret a moment of our relationship, imperfect as all of them are, and I hate this inconceivable mess. But hating it doesn't change it. Maybe I want to detach too because I want to protect the things I treasured in our M and in my H before he finishes destroying my memories too.
Sorry this is so long.
Hello Treasur,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
I went ahead and moved you to Newcomers so that more people will see your post and be able to offer support.
You are so smart to recognize the importance of truly detaching.
Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Thank you to both of you. I suppose you have to get smarter or bust, right!
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Read it last year. Going to read again this evening. H not here so no worries about browsing history!
I think I'm looking for practical advice really.
A few days ago, I told H no to 'chatting' because I can't talk to people who don't treat me with respect, it's an issue of trust. I was gentle and calm in my language. I also said that when divorce is final, that's it, NC at all. A couple of practical emails are necessary about our house sale. I sent one and he replied promptly (first time in months). Boundary of my sanity - after months of silence, who starts chatting a few weeks away from their divorce being final?
I don't think he quite got it. I said no but I think he heard 'do something to earn my trust'. In H's head, it is difficult to talk now because we're dealing with financial disagreements (because he has lied and stolen joint money), so it will be easier to talk 'properly' AFTER we're divorced...
I know I'm not there with detachment...logical head says do nothing, you said no, you can say no again. M is dead. H still loopy. D is inevitable and you need it to protect yourself financially. H is going to Paris on Sat to see his parents and another bit of me wants to tell him what he needs to do to earn that trust (begin to) while he's in a place for a week that was 'our' place...this is madness right? More old style fixing by me? Even though I know his memory is shot and he's not currently the quickest/smartest tool in the toolbox? (although undoubtedly a tool!) I think it means I'm not really detached either...that a bit of me still wants a miracle...
Should I email him next week to be sure I am clear about my boundary and what he needs to do if he wants to honour it?
Or should I detach completely and do nothing at all?
detach completely and do nothing at all?
This is what I would do.
What is emailing going to accomplish?
Wow! Well first let me say that I am very sorry you're going through this! He sounds like a full blown MLCer which is miles worse than dealing with a WAS. It sounds like you are already very familiar with the DBing basics and have been practicing DBing. I think you are doing quite well other than the emotional ties you still have to H. Unfortunately that just takes time to get over. The best suggestion I have for you is to really try to GAL, especially in trying out activities that help you meet other people. You didn't mention GAL, is that something you've been actively doing?
Also I wanted to ask about the D paperwork:
June 2016 H finally produces some D paperwork which shows some pretty shocking stuff including PA, huge debt, fraud and secret part-time life with PA a few miles from our old house from about July 2016.
He listed fraud in the paperwork? And the debt, is he trying to saddle you with part of the debt he has incurred?
I could feel something had shifted but told him no thank you. That I couldn't talk to people who lie to me, steal from me and treat me with no respect. H says understands that he needs to 'earn my trust' and 'wants to salvage something kind from this horrible mess'. We agree it's a horrible mess and I point out that it is his horrible mess not mine, and I'm leaving him to it. I say we can communicate about practicalities by email.
Yes, you handled that really well! I agree that it sounds like you can't trust him and even cracking open the door is just opening yourself up to more emotional abuse from him.
I love my DH - did I say that? - and I wanted to believe he would reemerge from the fog. But as the WTF stuff piled up, I started to force myself into looking at what I didn't want to. Little building blocks of acceptance. The two biggest ones were realising that more after 18 months, none of this made sense and it wasn't getting better and staying here was literally killing me.
I am not an MLC expert, but from what I've read you're looking at a long, long recovery time. 18 months is probably not even halfway to clearing the fog. I think you're taking the right approach in trying to distance yourself from him and his mess and pull your life together. He will probably emerge from the fog some day and may be ready to recon, but it's probably going to be a while yet. There is nothing wrong with continuing to love him, you have a lot of heart and spirit to hold onto that in the face of this kind of treatment!
I don't want to but I know I have to, if that makes sense. I need to feel like me again instead of the battered version. I want a life without lies and WTF and destruction and confusion and H seems to like living there, so he has to go.
Be patient with yourself, it takes time. It sounds like you are on the right track, but don't expect to get well right away! Are you seeing an IC? If not I think it would help. Good luck!
Took me ages to really see it was classic MLC. I'm not crazy to think it looks like MLC right? To be fair to me, he had been diagnosed with MH stuff. And I was frozen in grief really over the loss of all three of them at the same time. I think my brain just stopped.
Cadet: I think my reason for emailing is to clarify my boundary because I think he didn't hear me. I said no to talking now unless he made a significant gesture to show me some respect. But I also said the window for any talking stops when the divorce is final. His 'not my paradigm' comment stuck with me...I think he heard an endless open door and that isn't true. What would I need him to do? Pretty simple but I didn't spell that out either. Agree a generous £ settlement to stop the to/fro that he thinks is stopping us talking but I need to protect myself. Press the pause button on finalising the divorce for 6 months to give us a chance to talk. Talk to me f2f. So it's about being clear (boundaries are tough) and knowing that his listening/memory skills are pretty poor right now.
AnotherStander: GAL is what I've been dragging myself into since April...doing better but not great tbh. Better with social stuff, struggling with work direction. The financial stuff? No, don't think he is consciously trying to stiff me with debt but his finances are a mess and some strange stuff in there. Tbh, I don't think he considers the impact on me at all or on him. Which is one of the things I think kicked him out of the undergrowth actually...I think having to pull the £ stuff together forced him to look at realities he's been avoiding about his own actions and it hurt him to see it possibly.
Timelines? My best guess is that he started brewing quietly in early 2013...replay maybe a bit before BD so late 2014. All logic (and reading here) suggests that I need to get off this ride because I reckon it's got years in it and I can't do it. What threw me was his sudden reappearance with 'let's chat'...and how it triggers that little bit of hope/doubt just as you've started letting go. I am seeing an IC, as well as my obsessive chanting of the Serenity prayer, and frequent chats with God (when i often suggest that whilst I'm sure he has a cunning plan, it looks chit from here!)
I know I'm more detached than I was. I know I'm focusing on me and what next more, even than a month ago. I suppose I'm frightened that detaching is really because I've given up hope that the person I love will ever be seen again. And maybe I'm frightened that I'll stop loving him and that will trash all my memories of 20 years too, if that makes sense? It feels like more of an emotional struggle than a practical one really
Cadet: I think my reason for emailing is to clarify my boundary because I think he didn't hear me. I said no to talking now unless he made a significant gesture to show me some respect. But I also said the window for any talking stops when the divorce is final. His 'not my paradigm' comment stuck with me...I think he heard an endless open door and that isn't true. What would I need him to do? Pretty simple but I didn't spell that out either. Agree a generous £ settlement to stop the to/fro that he thinks is stopping us talking but I need to protect myself. Press the pause button on finalising the divorce for 6 months to give us a chance to talk. Talk to me f2f. So it's about being clear (boundaries are tough) and knowing that his listening/memory skills are pretty poor right now.
I will stick with my previous advice, he either DID hear you and chooses to ignore your boundary.
Or he didn't hear you and no amount of talking begging or pleading is going to change him.
Either way not detaching is unlikely to bring you closer to your goal.
Cadet: I think my reason for emailing is to clarify my boundary because I think he didn't hear me. I said no to talking now unless he made a significant gesture to show me some respect. But I also said the window for any talking stops when the divorce is final. His 'not my paradigm' comment stuck with me...I think he heard an endless open door and that isn't true. What would I need him to do? Pretty simple but I didn't spell that out either. Agree a generous £ settlement to stop the to/fro that he thinks is stopping us talking but I need to protect myself. Press the pause button on finalising the divorce for 6 months to give us a chance to talk. Talk to me f2f. So it's about being clear (boundaries are tough) and knowing that his listening/memory skills are pretty poor right now.
I will stick with my previous advice, he either DID hear you and chooses to ignore your boundary.
Or he didn't hear you and no amount of talking begging or pleading is going to change him.
Either way not detaching is unlikely to bring you closer to your goal.
Hello Treasur,
It sounds like your changes/boundaries have been noticed, just difficult to believe at this point. These changes need to be made for you. They need to be long lasting and sincere. Prove that to yourself and anyone else through your actions, not your words. There is no need to email him, right?
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
i hear you loud and clear!
You'll be pleased to know I saw my IC yesterday...who said the same thing...I hear you.
She asked me why I thought it was MLC. And why it mattered. I said it mattered because a) I felt like I wasn't crazy b) I wasn't imagining how very weird it is because other people experience this in RL even if not people I know and c) i didn't imagine the person I knew for 19 years.... Doesn't change the factual reality of what has happened and our almost-done D though.
But her question made me doubt myself, so does this sound like MLC stuff?
- Original H...loving, romantic, committed to me and really valued our marriage, funny, bit of a homebody, loved cooking, golf, his cats, reading, entertaining friends, sentimental, hated conflict, churchgoer, kind, gentleman, loved by small children and elderly ladies, involved in community, upright decent guy, cared what people thought of him (maybe a bit much), never Mr DIY but always a good partner. Cherished me and the kind of M that other people envied as being a really loving team.
- FOO...only child of older parents, but big extended family led by 6 aunts. Mother maybe BP, certainly narcissistic. Father functioning alcoholic. Brought up with lots of rules about being a 'good son' like a cutout really and family pattern is to do anything to avoid mother having a meltdown. (She once refused to speak to a friend for 2 years in an argument about salt...seriously...and his father refused to speak to him for 4 years because he didn't go to university..yup plenty of dysfunction to share there!) Sent away to school at 5, brought up by grandmother & great-aunt in holidays mostly. Survived a fire at 15 along with his favourite aunt in which his uncle and 17 year old cousin died. Mother, who liked him best as a sweet choir boy of about 7 and likes to be called Mummy(!), constantly claims that 'the fire ruined him' as a son and has told him she wishes he had died because then she would have 'kept' her perfect boy as he was...H deals with this by a) avoiding family gatherings as much as possible b)token phone calls to his mother every few weeks and c) not really talking to either parent about anything substantive
First odd things:-
1. Works for a bank and scandals in banking about 2012 made him very uncomfortable. Unhappy with his job and new boss, we'd just moved house. Started talking about setting up a business with friends as a football agent in 2013 (hates football)
2. Has rich client in his 60s getting remarried who invites him to stag weekend. Two weeks before going in Aug 2014, H casually mentions over lunch in restaurant that this means staying in biggest brothel in Europe before private jet to horse racing event. I choke on bacon and say brothel not ok with me...he turns it into argument that I should trust him and know who he is (and have never doubted his fidelity before to be fair). I say I do but don't trust client and it's like going to a supermarket and not buying a sandwich. Massive first argument of our M life, complete impasse, actually split up for a couple of days. He agrees not to go but resents being 'embarrassed' in front of client. Never seems to quite accept my view on it. We get into some quite deep conversations about 'being a man', unhappiness with work and some things we want to change about life/M before life unravels with long series of family illness and deaths. Although I don't know it, EA with co-worker starts here because he rings in distressed to say won't be in work because I'd thrown him out...she apparently very understanding because survived domestic abuse and has MH history...
3. Starts new high-profile job in London, living away during the week May 2015. Oct 2015, I know something off with him because he seems down and distant. assume work stress. Ask. Find about about EA texts etc which ended by her in Apr 2015 'because he wouldn't leave me...but she's just a good friend' (yup, nothing fishy there!). He goes AWOL for 24 hours then sends email to say M is over because I don't trust him...
4. Turns up, implodes in front of me, sounds like depressive breakdown, suicidal. Runs back to London, gets referred to psychiatrist and diagnosed with OCD/depression. First ILYBNILWY, says numb, no feelings about anything. Stops all hobbies, interests, cuts all friends off too. Unrecognisable, won't talk to me much, won't come home (living in aunt's London flat)
5 Comes home for Christmas, won't sleep with me, shell of himself. Says this doesn't feel like 'his' life, still suicidal, says he has no feelings about anything including me. Runs off again. I still think this is about depression so waiting until meds/treatment start working but very frightened for him. Nothing makes sense.
6. Refuses to communicate with me at all Jan-Apr 2016
7. Apr 2016 reappears wanting to 'work as a team again', still obviously unwell. Spend day together in May...ten days later a text saying 'divorce is the only option'...but refuses to talk about that either. Files in Jan 2017, still won't talk. Doesn't even respond to his own lawyer! Still seeing psychiatrist...crazy silence continues until recent sighting.
8. Other stuff...
- shows no interest or concern in me or anyone else, and continues to ignore all messages from friends etc for months
- very angry texts full of 'you have no right to pressure me' when I ask practical questions about house/furniture etc
- no concern either when I get anonymous death threats in July 2016 other than denying it's him or anyone he knows, and that he doesn't want his name on a police record...(same man who worried about me driving alone late at night for years...)
- turns up at house when I'm not there in Nov 16, leaves wedding ring on table, steals Cartier watch he bought me as 50th birthday gift. Ignores/refuses to speak about it or return it
- PA (different co-worker, likes selfies and Kim Kardashian) probably started Apr 16. He splits his time between London and her house about 5 miles away although I only recently found this out. None of previous hobbies or friends, tattoos, grows a beard, (fat with meds so NOT his best look!), trance dance events (hated clubs before), new hipster clothing when previously very traditional suits/country gent look, possibly cocaine, and complete workaholic.
- spending money like water (not sure on what as living in aunt and OWs house for free with no bills or domestic responsibilities!), but big cash withdrawals. Starts raiding joint account in Apr 2017 and says via lawyer 'I needed the money so I took it because it's my account...' Find out lots of credit card debt and has faked salary payments to joint a/c since July 2016 to hide salary increase and bonuses (an activity which could cost him his job if employer found out). Will not communicate about selling house, sick cat, my cancer surgery...endless list. Just stonewalling. Seems to see no obligation to me at all, as if he has erased me, old life and all old friends. Family know nothing and still sending me party invites to both of us!
- Reappears wanting to 'talk' out of the blue in June 2017. His great 'plan' is that we should chat every day but not about anything important while D stuff going on because it's too difficult to wear 'two hats'...and then talk properly after D finalised. Seems to think this is quite sensible and a bit shocked when I say not sure. Chases me by email/VMS until we talk and I say no thank you. Admits to PA, denies living with her, says it's 'not what I think' but refuses to discuss. When challenged that her FB is full of wedding dresses, admits to having had some general discussions but says nothing fixed, not making plans and 'resolving our issues' is most important thing...Refuses to 'accept my paradigm' that I won't talk to him (!) and says he understands he has to take responsibility to earn my trust...disappears back off to silence...
As I'm writing all of this, it strikes me how completely nutty it all is. No wonder I've been bewildered! (as well as all the other emotions and grieving for loss of my parents too - let's just give me a big hand for still being upright, yay!). To survive this madness, I had to accept it was as it was and do the best I could expecting nothing but more crazy from H. If it is MLC, my best guess on timings...brewing 2012-2014, beginning of replay late 2014 onwards, no idea where he's at now.
I am (finally since April) well enough to do GAL, detachment etc. D will be finalised in next couple of months if we can get him to be sane enough to agree financial settlement. If not, will have to go to court which could take 6-18 months...Have had to accept that beloved H is a)going through some kind of crisis which isn't about me or our M b) M not perfect but was pretty damn happy c) I am sort of invisible to him, shows no concern or even interest in me or any of his friends d) he seems to have a long playlist of WTF crazy stuff most of which is pretty self-destructive but nothing I can do but protect myself the best I can and e) whether I like it or not, old M is dead, D round the corner and old H has been replaced by an alien teenager...
Does this sound like MLC? Any guess on where he might be at in life cycle? Does recent odd 'touch n go' suggest any hope he's progressing? Or am I just crazy too?
Do
PS He is very secretive, even about silly things, so sure there is a lot of other stuff I don't know! If I step back, biggest flavour is...avoiding all responsibilities other than work, completely different values and interests, pompous, cold, self-centred, doesn't like being challenged about anything, no empathy or interest in anyone else, shows no remorse or responsibility, seems to feel like a victim as if 'a big boy did it and ran away', depressed, anxious, erased every bit of his old life including me.
Does this sound like MLC?
Yes
Any guess on where he might be at in life cycle? Does recent odd 'touch n go' suggest any hope he's progressing?
REPLAY
Sure he is progressing but this is a marathon not a sprint
MLC takes a VERY VERY VERY LONGGGGGGGGGG TIME.
Sure all LBS's are crazy but not in the way you think.
We all have issues and accept things we should not accept.
Time to re-learn everything we know.
Read the books and start with a beginners mind.
Fair point...the advantage of seeing someone SO clearly the exact opposite (once you get past the complete bewilderment) is that as much as you miss the person you knew, this is a very different person! Being objective, it looks as if the 5% dark bits of of my STBXH's character are now running the show.
Checked out this link
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869&page=1 and would score my STBXH at 23/30!!
Been a hard road to get here but I guess I've had to reluctantly accept that my M is dead, my H is unavailable and no longer loves or cares about me at all. Might hate me actually. Nothing I can do about it but refuse to believe his version of our pretty happy M or of me. I probably was trying to Stand, but I see no positive signs at all of him breaking through after almost 2 years of chaos, so I need to let it/him go to have a non-WTF life. No idea what will happen to him and to be honest, assume I'll never see or speak to him again so I won't know.
All I can do is detach from the chaos, accept I'm being divorced and GAL for myself. I miss him, and I miss having hope for him but I don't anymore. I suppose I think he'll just keep running for years and won't be quite brave enough to stop and deal with the damage in a healthy way. Sad. I know he's not happy really and I know it's been painful for him, but I also know only he can fight his way out. Thank goodness my natural self-esteem, even battered as I have been, stopped me beating myself up about it or thinking I could 'fix' him! But it is sad, because as a natural optimist, in the early days (when I didn't know it might be MLC), I hoped that something strong and beautiful would come out of something dark and ugly.
Loving detachment and throwing it over the wall to God while focusing on what next for me without my beloved is the only thing that makes sense...and enjoying being 4st lighter courtesy of the LBS diet, of course! It's ironic that I look better than I have for years and he looked dreadful when I saw him briefly a few months ago..
So, hopeless and helpless against MLC, but not for myself of my life
Ooh, and I've learned to LOVE calm boundaries...
Sorry...stray thought...why do you think he's popped up wanting to suddenly chat on the phone?
I didn't spend much time thinking about why, but said no thank you based on what felt healthy and non-WTF to me really. I'd already gone quite a long way towards detachment, well logically if not emotionally as much.
sorry - felt not fight...although maybe subconsciously I meant fighting for my M!!!
Having a rough day here. I know it's not logical but sometimes I'm still shocked by who my STBXH is now and what has happened...which is ridiculous after 18 months of the crazy rollercoaster. Maybe I just feel grief as part of detaching...I miss my H. I would give almost anything to see his face looking like him. But I know that's not going to happen after so long, but I just miss him.
Been a hard road to get here but I guess I've had to reluctantly accept that my M is dead, my H is unavailable and no longer loves or cares about me at all. Might hate me actually. Nothing I can do about it but refuse to believe his version of our pretty happy M or of me. I probably was trying to Stand, but I see no positive signs at all of him breaking through after almost 2 years of chaos, so I need to let it/him go to have a non-WTF life. No idea what will happen to him and to be honest, assume I'll never see or speak to him again so I won't know.
As hard as it is dealing with a WAS, an MLCer is a LOT more difficult and painful from what I've read. WAS's tend to change personality a little, MLCers change a LOT. The previous loving, attentive spouse disappears and is replaced by a crazy person. Someone very self-centered, irresponsible and even dangerous. They follow a pretty set script and eventually come out of the fog, but as Cadet said it takes a loooooong time. 5 or more years is not unusual. Most people don't have that kind of patience and move on long before the MLCer comes out of the tunnel. And who can blame them?
I suppose I think he'll just keep running for years and won't be quite brave enough to stop and deal with the damage in a healthy way.
Yup.
But it is sad, because as a natural optimist, in the early days (when I didn't know it might be MLC), I hoped that something strong and beautiful would come out of something dark and ugly.
And it might. But the timeline is really long and even if you decide to wait, there are still no guarantees he'll ever be his normal pre-MLC self again (although it does happen).
Loving detachment and throwing it over the wall to God while focusing on what next for me without my beloved is the only thing that makes sense...
I agree.
and enjoying being 4st lighter courtesy of the LBS diet, of course!
I often say it's the most effective diet ever, LOL
It has all been pretty bewildering. My H's personality in MLC has been unrecognisable really compared to who he was and he has done things he wouldn't have believed if you had told him two years ago. Probably more because I'm sure there are things I don't know too.
What makes it hard is how crazy it all seems and how destructive. I think of him every day although I am past the sobbing into my boots stage of last year. You have to get a bit numb after a while. I always knew it wasn't about me really or even very much about our marriage (although I wish I'd known about boundaries a bit earlier!!). MLC makes it feel pretty hopeless that there will be a foreseeable time when it will even be possible to have a normal conversation...so I guess it's easier to assume we won't. D will be finalised and I'll never see him again. At the same time, I know my H used to love me very much and it's hard to believe that he never thinks about me at all after almost 20 years of a pretty happy loving relationship.
Hey ho, off to music festival today to GAL. He's either seeing his parents in Paris for a week alone because him & OW have hit the buffers as he was hinting or, equally possible, he is there introducing OW as their next DIL. No way of knowing so I squish the thoughts when they pop up. Read on someone else's thread that they imagined their H & OW on a postage stamp and covered it with their shoe so I'll try that!
Funny how that default 'mind-reading' switch flicks on isn't it? Currently it feels like I'm dealing with two versions of the same MLC person...Evil Teenage Monster in the D process, something slightly different in emails and his desire to talk.
I'd asked him to return, via my lawyer, a couple of sentimental items including a photo album. I was angry when I asked and then it stung this morning to get a couple of them through the post. Things that my original H who was a sentimental hoarder treasured. Off goes my spinning head...well the fact he returned them just shows how little you and your M mean to him now...blah blah in my head.
Toddler detached head said. You don't know how he felt about returning them only that he did return some of the items you asked for. For all you know, he might have felt upset, or guilty that he doesn't deserve them, or nothing, or irritated or....You don't know and it's a waste of time to pretend you do.
If there is any bit of my H there behind the MLC storm, it would have upset him especially the photos. And I was angry enough to want to hurt him when I felt so powerless a few months ago. But I don't know. If I am detached but think 'as if', I suppose I think that I treasure them still even if he doesn't now, that I can keep them safe for him if there is a time when he does again and I have the reassurance of knowing that my photos are not being perused by stalking OW. That's enough.
Gosh though this detachment stuff is like basic mental training isn't it?
Do you find that MLC folks lie about silly small things as well as big ones? Why? Asking because my lawyer wants me to take a court route in our divorce because she believes my STBXH has just lied about too much to work with sensibly. And I think - when he recently tried to get me to talk to him last week - he told me a lie about being in Paris. Because of that, I had told my lawyer he would not meet a deadline for some docs - and now I look like an idiot. A stupid lie too because I've just received a tracked parcel sent yesterday from the city where OW lives, a pretty circuitous route from London to Paris!
I've just sent him a brief email inviting him to be honest and saying if I don't hear from him in 24 hours, I'll give my lawyer the OK to go that route which will be much more costly and take 6-18 months which isn't good for me either. Sigh. They don't make it easy do they even when they are apparently getting the divorce they say they want? Nuts followed by more nuts.
Do you find that MLC folks lie about silly small things as well as big ones?
Yes
Do what you need to do to protect yourself.
Remember to assume that he is lying anytime his lips move or he writes something.
Yup, spinning a bit today...followed by first email by a second saying don't bother, nothing he could say by email would make a difference so no need to reply. Only actions count and he isn't doing anything to stop the 'horrible mess' as he calls it. Actually I've been reading other's posts and beating myself up a bit. I'm a smart woman behaving stupidly. I don't need to know any more or understand why any more to see the reality that something in my previously lovely H broke and he has run off into WTF land. He doesn't care about me or the consequences of his actions on anyone else. He lies because he wants to and is outraged when the facts are used to challenge him by my lawyer because he's not a very bright liar.
I have written myself a big note right in front of my desk because I need to do more than detach. It says DROP THE F***ING HOPE ROPE.
I hate that this happened to me, our M and erased the person I loved so much. But hating it doesn't change the facts in front of my nose, does it?
I wish my father was still alive to talk to. I miss him. He loved my H but he would 2x4 him now for sure. Gosh, why am I still so shocked by all of this after almost 2 years now? Some of it is because I hate having to accept that this excuse for a human being is who he is choosing to be and that he is capable of doing what he has done. That he is so far away from the man I knew for such a long time. But he is. I sort of feel angry with the MLC version for killing off the other guy if that makes sense? At the same time, I know that these things are also part of the dark side of who he is and that's horrific to accept. That the same man who cried with joy when he gave me a watch is the same man who stole it and either pawned it or gave it to OW. That the same man who worried about me driving late at night is the same man who either sent me anonymous death threats or is happy to sleep with someone he'd known a few months who did.
He said last week that it's a horrible mess and he wants to stop the mess...but obviously he doesn't. My brain says it isn't my horrible mess. My heart just hates that this has happened to a fundamentally good man and a pretty good marriage. Sorry, spinning and feeling sorry for myself - bad day today. Bad week actually. Probably because he threw me off balance by appearing out of the undergrowth a fortnight ago and sounding different...but sounds and words are just lies, aren't they Cadet?
sounds and words are just lies, aren't they Cadet?
YES
Ah, short & sweet, Cadet! Any tips on emotional detachment?
It hurts when someone you loved thinks you're worthless after 20 years. As I'm trying to detach (and currently doing a poor job), it feels like my head fighting my heart. Every step is like another loss and I'm tired of grief and bereavement.
Ah, short & sweet, Cadet! Any tips on emotional detachment?
It hurts when someone you loved thinks you're worthless after 20 years. As I'm trying to detach (and currently doing a poor job), it feels like my head fighting my heart. Every step is like another loss and I'm tired of grief and bereavement.
Read the articles in my first post and then
fake it until you make it.
You need to start to DO it then keep doing it until your changes become real
I read this on an old post by beatrice - for any of us who doubt...sounds spot on, and sad but reassuring to know that so many different people experience such similar things
"I think the term MLC encompasses a wide range of behaviours - and certainly the person going through it isn't acting in a mature way - There may be 50 ways to leave your lover, but an affair is never a good idea.
For me there are a number of 'tells' - one is totally uncharacteristic behaviour. People other than the immediate family are shell-shocked.
Another is total disconnect with their previous life, activities and friends. They drop the marriage and their former life. Maybe keep up with one or two people (who were not necessarily in their pre-MLC inner circle)
In many cases (not all) they are raging and vengeful at some point, and will seek to asset strip their family and spouse.
In other words, in MLC they flip out into being someone else that we, the immediate family, and their closest friends simply do not recognise at all. They are like an alien in your spouse's skin, they have dead eyes and no empathy at all."
Thank you to both of you. I suppose you have to get smarter or bust, right!
Treasur
not everyone is ready to hear this, but you might be. Check out the ... website for some guidance and translation/explanation for your h's behavior.
I'll write more later, but I'm your age and as you know, it's not as if life is eternal and waiting for years for someone to "wake up" or "go back to who they were" is the correct path. I spent a decade thinking our m was reconciled...
More & more I think it's not the right path.
But that's just me.
((( )))
Hello 25 - have looked at some of the... stuff but will look again.
I suppose where I am is pulling myself out of losing my father, my husband and my mother within 6 months. To be honest, there were plenty of times when I didn't know why I kept going at all. Hardest thing, almost unbearable.
I miss all of them and sometimes the universe just doesn't feel right. But I am still here and there are still small joys and people who care about me. With my H? I have to say no to the rollercoaster because it is too dark and I've lost hope for him. I've always known it wasn't about me, although it's hard to keep telling yourselves that when they are so shockingly cruel. I know he loved me. I know he's broken. I know right now he is at best indifferent to my existence; at worst, he seems to like hurting me. To be honest, painful as it was that he refused to see or speak to me for months, it meant I didn't have to see the shell of a man he is. Because that hurts too.
I know I have to walk away to rebuild something. I'm too battered by grief for my family to have enough energy to Stand or to hope. But sometimes, I'm just frozen for a moment in bewilderment that the man who treasured me wears the same face as someone who didn't care that I got death threats from his new woman...the WTF craziness of it is just overwhelming. If I was 33...I'm not sure I would have survived it. At 53, I can't invest another two years or more in the limbo of WTFland. But it is heartbreaking to see what a horrible mess he has made, as he called it a couple of weeks ago.
Journalling, I guess?
Read a post which made me start thinking about who I was pre-M, during my M, since BD/WTFland and now...and what kind of woman I want to be for the next bit of my life.
Some bits of me have always been there - I'm intelligent, kind, and a bit of an impatient 'fixer' who likes logic and impractical shoes. Bits I lost in my M? Independence, being quick to action, boldness - I traded some in for good respectful reasons because I was part of a team with an H who is more given to procrastinating and more risk-averse (although MLC has certainly changed both our risk profiles!) but I traded in a bit too much of it. Why? Because tbh I always thought my H was slower and weaker...squirming a bit now...which means that there were some ways in which I didn't respect him actually...now really squirming. All on me? No. STBXH was an equal player in a 'poor old H' game (not just with me and we did discuss it pre-BD). Crumby game because I felt impatient & frustrated so it sucked me into 'fixing' which also made me feel manipulated. He resented feeling controlled but got to avoid responsibility and conflict.
Post-BD/bereavement me? Well, flailed around with the logical fixer bit for ages...until it was pretty obvious that grief and what was happening in my M were not 'fix' things and that logic was 95% useless. (It did help me not blame myself and it did help me know some of what was just grief etc) Then? I was just broken. Nothing in my life made sense. I didn't make sense. I did learn that I could be more patient than I thought! I learned to let myself feel things I didn't want to and be more honest about the mess of feelings I had. I learned that I was much weaker than I thought but brave in a different way. And more frightened and alone than I've ever felt. I felt like a victim and I hated it, but actually it was true that I was a victim of a ton of things - cancer, dementia, my H's implosion - I couldn't control. There were plenty of times when I thought I was losing my mind. My faith got stronger as did my compassion for others. I have a Crying 101 certificate now when before I was a bit of a 'daddy's girl' who thought being strong was about being rational and unemotional. Apart from with my H funnily enough...as I am more comfortable about looking facts in the eye, he has always been better pre-BD/MLC at being comfortable with emotions.
And right now, who am I? And who do I want to be? Not sure...more independent, way less of a fixer, quieter, calmer, still fab shoes...hmmm, need to think some more
And right now?
Anyone else struggle with looking honestly at their part of the M vs feeling love for their H and his part vs feeling angry as hell at how their H has treated them?
Anyone else struggle with looking honestly at their part of the M vs feeling love for their H and his part vs feeling angry as hell at how their H has treated them?
yes ^^^^
huge pieces of this struggle are
1) the gross injustice of it, AND the irony/insanity that h sees himself as the hero & me as the villain,
2) what was real/fake, and when?
3) how much cognitive dissonance/dishonesty existed on the spouse's part,
4) me trying to improve as a person "anyhow",
5) while also secretly hoping to win the "pick me" dance, that we simultaneously know we should not have to compete in!!
6) not waiting around for them to "get it/see the light/do the right thing" and accepting that for the foreseeable future, my h $ucks as a father and is gone as my h.
7) learning to embrace the upsides of the situation and discovering what I - 25 - want in life. Feeling better, too. How?
Detachment is -for me - the one thing that consistently seems to increase my happiness levels.
For me it took a year to really accept my part in the failure of M... Sure, I thought about things I did to participate in the failure before, but I always would include the "but I only did that because she...".
It really hit me hard when I "got it".. When I realized what I did, or didn't do, in my M (without trying to attach reasons I did it). When I finally saw it for what my part was, it made me feel sad and to be honest a little disgusted at myself.
Several times I said to my wife that if she wasn't happy in our M, then she should of done something to work on it or end it, instead of having an A. The day I really understood my part, I realized that I wasn't happy and I too didn't do anything to fix it or end it, instead I further distanced myself from my spouse.
Reliving what we did, didn't do, the shoulda woulda couldas, etc in our marriages is, to me, just wasted effort. We can't change the past.
Those thoughts occupied far too many of the remaining brain cells I had in my feeble little man brain. Yes, hard to stop but it can be done.
As someone who suffered through an MLC, I could offer my insight but everyone is different. I don't know your H. My crystal ball died after hooking it up to the 220 dryer plug.
Here is some questions I have...
What are his motivations to want to "talk properly"?
Just what does "talk properly" mean to him?
MrCAS
What are his motivations to want to "talk properly"?
Just what does "talk properly" mean to him?
First answer (without borrowing AndrewP's mind-reading turban!) is I don't know.
I asked. He said
"it's a horrible mess I've made and I want to salvage something kind from the mess, but I don't know how to do that and I worry I'll mess that up too"
"having the £ stuff to deal with makes some conversations awkward...finding it all very difficult"
"want to chat to keep the communication door open...not about anything substantive, just to talk every other day on the phone...we could set up a schedule and take it as it comes"
"it may surprise you that I think about you every day"
"completely understand your point of view (after I'd said no thank you)...the onus is mine....I hear what you say but I won't accept the paradigm that this will be the last time we speak"
plus lots of IDK..."I can't explain"..."it's just a feeling" standard MLC blah
So back to your questions...
What are his motivations to want to "talk properly"?
Just what does "talk properly" mean to him?
[/i]
The second? To chat on the phone every other day about the weather etc starting at 10 minutes and talking for longer each time...until the financial stuff is agreed...and then to start talking "properly" about "real" things (no idea what these are, he couldn't/wouldn't say)
The first? IDK...based on what he said? He wants to keep a door open. He's finding the £ stuff difficult. He wants to 'salvage something kind from the mess' (no idea what that means) He doesn't want to accept the 'paradigm' of never speaking to me again. (weird choice of word)
Mind reading? Obviously something had shifted in his head or situation that caused him to want to talk to me and chase me to do so. Maybe temporarily. He sees a horrible mess, doesn't like it but doesn't know what to do. The £ stuff of the divorce process has forced him to look at realities in black and white that he has been avoiding looking at for a long time and it hurts or bothers him in some way. Best I can do!
Me? I thought hard about it.
1. Talking would have helped with the limbo last year. Talking even a few months ago would have helped with some of the practical stuff after he filed (and then did nothing) in Jan. But given his refusal to communicate with me directly, I had found a way to press on regardless with both. So, too late to be practically useful really.
2. I'm tired of the WTF shockwaves...and I have been shocked & distressed by some of the facts the £ process has shown me. Detaching, other than the practical facts I need to deal with legally, protects me from more WTFs. But just as my accepting reality is part of my route forward, probably the same is true for him. It is an old 'fixing' pattern of mine to shield him a bit and I'd be doing no favours to the person I still love to do that now. If he is ever to 'recover', he needs to see the reality of the mess he's made and choose to deal with it or not, I suppose. Same for me. It hurts and it is hard and I'm sorry for both of us.
3. We agree it's a horrible mess but I can't change his bit of that, only mine. And his actions & responses in the legal process are just as unreasonable and less than honest as they were a month earlier. And my gran used to say that 'fine words butter no parsnips'...there are things he could do in the process if he wanted to 'salvage something kind' and no sign of him actually doing any of them as yet
4. On the 'quacks like a duck/you can't reason with crazy' principle, it just feels crazy to me that after almost a year of refusing to communicate directly at all, we start 'chatting' a few weeks from our D being finalised. And if it feels crazy to me, it's probably coming from a crazy place.
5. There was a risk that I would con myself into believing my own 'story' and it would hurt me more, the terrible temptation to see breadcrumbs as cake. My H has lied to me. I don't want to lie to myself. And his 'open door' is a door to WTF world for me.
6. And the biggest reason in the end I calmly said no thank you? MLC or not, my H has lied to me and treated me as not worthy of respect or value. IRL (just about remember that!), I wouldn't chat to someone like that unless I could see them doing things consistently to earn my trust. Even being compassionate about why they might have acted that way. To have self-respect, I have to not collude with being treated as worthless. It may be true that for my H, both me as a person and our M are worthless. It is certainly how he has behaved. But I don't believe it is true so I need to act like that. Which is what I said to him calmly pretty much, although I think he 'heard' something different...but that's not my problem.
So, I was/am comfortable that saying 'no thank you' was the right choice for me. For him? No idea what or why really, so I don't know if it is good for him. I suppose I think if it isn't, he has some different choices he could make.
And under all of this...I miss my H and (most) of the man he was. I hate WTFland. I hate having to accept that he is now capable of doing some of the things he has done, and that it has stained his life as well as mine. I mourn for our M, and for the real love and friendship we had.
25 - yup, it's like Alice in Wonderland, isn't it? And some of my thinking about it made me a bit loopy at times.
1) the gross injustice of it, AND the irony/insanity that h sees himself as the hero & me as the villain. IDK if my H sees me as the villain. Don't think he sees himself as the hero, maybe OW is the heroine? I think he sees himself as broken, trapped and a victim. And yup, the unfairness of it is hard to take so I've been training myself to let go of my own belief that acting 'well' inspires others to do the same!
2) what was real/fake, and when? This drove me crazy and ripped my guts out. I treasured our M and my H, and it felt like someone had erased 20 years of my own reality. That I decided to fight for. I know in the calmest bit of my heart that my H loved me deeply. I know our M wasn't perfect but it was real...until it wasn't. It is not rational to think that someone can fake that for so long, and I certainly wasn't faking it. So I decided to just say that my memories and opinion was enough for me. In more recent times, yes, there is a bit of me that wants to know what/when...and feels angry that perhaps while I thought it was 'just' a MH issue, that may always have been a smokescreen for it really being just the A with OW cliche. That I was worrying about him killing himself while he was worrying about getting laid! That I was a fool. But then I think, after 19 years of love when I had no prior reason to doubt his love or fidelity, it's reasonable to have thought the best of my H first. I was wrong, but it was reasonable and what I would have hoped he would have done for me.
3) how much cognitive dissonance/dishonesty existed on the spouse's part, Gah, no idea...lots? I've seen some weird stuff from him at the beginning when we were still in contact...enough to see that he wasn't 'normal' either for him or 'normal' people. It's hard to do but I've had to accept a) IDK and b) best starting place is probably the believe nothing they say/50% of what they do thing. Even now in the legal process, I see silly lies, memory issues etc. I suspect he doesn't know either.
4) me trying to improve as a person "anyhow", yup, there is a 5 year old bit of me that wants to stamp my foot at this! And a wiser bit that knows that I wasn't entirely happy with my life pre-BD and that it isn't a coincidence that the situation is forcing me to look at what I want and who I want to be now. But it's hard and sometimes I do resent it.
5) while also secretly hoping to win the "pick me" dance, that we simultaneously know we should not have to compete in!! Not sure this is where I am now, but I was. And it was a bit weird because I've never felt that since losing my first love as a teenager! Hmm, hubris! M makes things different, I think, that mix of love and obligation and practical entanglement. Of course I do hate the OW a bit...being human and all..but I don't feel 'in competition' or that she is more than a symptom, even if he decides to stick with her. Knowing my H, he will just be trying to delegate his 'fixing' to someone else and another person's lifestyle...epic MLC fail of course but not my monkey as someone else said. I'm at that funny LBS stage now where I truly love the core of my H but accept I don't know who he is now (and don't much like what I see!). When I accept my old M is dead, assume he won't want to try to make a new one because he isn't brave enough, and I'm not sure if I have enough energy or belief in him to want to do the hard work anyway. Odd place to be. Only got there in the last month or so, so not sure where I'll go with it. Right now, I don't feel 'pick me'...
6) not waiting around for them to "get it/see the light/do the right thing" and accepting that for the foreseeable future, my h $ucks as a father and is gone as my h. Standing vs waiting is a funny line, isn't it? Hope vs acceptance. Figuring out what you CAN do vs the things you CAN'T. And the MLC timescales are a killer for me...I read some stories about people piecing after 3 years, and then going through BD2? I barely survived this...yay, well done me!...the idea of doing it again is horrific. I read somewhere, maybe Mach1 posed it (he asks some REALLY good questions)...Would you go through hell to get to your H/W on the other side? My answer was 'yes' and I do feel I have done that. Would you go through hell if you didn't know they would be waiting on the other side? Not sure.
7) learning to embrace the upsides of the situation and discovering what I - 25 - want in life. Feeling better, too. How? It's such a long tough road that I think it's hard to see the progress you make. Or to feel anything other than irritatingly Pollyanna-ish as you look at the upsides. Or figuring out what you want in the middle of the storm when all the things you want you can't have. I have made progress from 20 months ago, some good, some not, but things are not the same. Pollyanna stuff? Tough to see the upsides of losing my whole family simultaneously, but there are some. My H didn't kill himself which was a real possibility in the first 6 months, would have left me with much of the same rubble but no hope for him at all. (Mind you, would have had the insurance and no D paperwork!). I could have died, came close a couple of times, and then I would never know how the story unfolds. We don't have kids which must be unbearably hard. Having a Vanisher does make day to day detachment easier and keeps some of the WTF reality away, but it also makes it harder to let go of your mental picture of the H you knew. I do like my new little house by the sea though! I think the hardest thing is figuring out what you really want when you're surrounded by things you don't want screaming for your attention. Hence, the time being a gift saying, I guess. Still figuring that out but it has moved to the centre of my screen whereas for over a year, my H and my bewilderment were at the centre.
I seem to have hit a funny second wind of grief (or 500th!) as I'm working hard to build my detaching muscles. I just miss my H. The sound of his voice, his smell, the feeling of him in another room. I think this is the first time I've cried in months. I thought I would always be able to reach out and feel his hand.
I know my H is not available anymore. Sometimes I worry that I'll forget what he looked like before he became Mr Depressed Shark Eyes. He isn't available because he's lost himself or he's fine with the OW and happy. It doesn't matter really. His absence is the same.
I think I'm grieving again because I love him, and I hate what has happened to him, and there is nothing I can do about it. And, more than just detaching, I know I have to choose to go dark for my own survival really.
I know some of you know how hard this path is and how hard it is to keep doing things which are hard to do when you're tired. I just miss my husband's face.
I think I'm grieving again because I love him, and I hate what has happened to him, and there is nothing I can do about it. And, more than just detaching, I know I have to choose to go dark for my own survival really.
I think we all have had the missing stages. Hell, sometimes I still miss my XW... But what I really miss is the "us" that was before "the Darkness" came around.
I don't miss her lying, the cheating, the miserable interactions..
You can love someone. You can care about someone. You also don't have to accept all the BS that comes with the package. You can't fix him.
Going dark at the juncture seems like a reasonable and prudent thing to do.
I kept all interactions to e-mails only after a fashion. I didn't have to deal with the craziness. It gave me an opportunity to think out my response instead of reacting to it.
You have nothing to be ashamed of. Just because you detach for your sanity doesn't mean you somehow stop loving someone. Just like were fully aware that our spouses still love us in their wayward state of mind. So if you feel the need for a good cry, then go ahead and do so.
MrCas - did my reply to your questions about his 'motivation' make sense? (Always find it helpful to check I'm not infected by crazy too!)
Tread - thank you. Maybe I do feel a bit ashamed of still loving the H I knew given what he is now. I have no idea if my H still feels anything about me at all now, tbh. I know he did love me, but now, no doesn't look like he'd spit on me if I was on fire.
Yes, unless he expressly stated what his motivations are, I would guess it would be mind reading...
Journalling...
So, here is where I am today. Sun is shining and I'm out with friends at the weekend. STBXH has gone back to his silent cave, either alone or partying in Paris with OW. My lawyer is still waiting for responses for his on big financial stuff...sigh...and in a couple of weeks wants me to press the button that will take us to Court because of his non-responsiveness.
I have gone NC and plan to do nothing for the next 3 weeks other than legal stuff. If my STBXH wants to 'salvage something from the horrible mess' as he calls it, he knows what I need him to do practically before mid-August. (3 things - propose a decent financial agreement, email the lawyers that he is pausing for 6 months before finalising the D to give us time to talk. Come and see me for a day on the coast to start talking.) I don't have any expectations that he will, so I'm just getting on with life. I guess detachment has brought me to the point where I accept that my M is gone and that it isn't my job to come up with ideas to tidy up the mess he now (probably) is starting to see he has made for himself. Me saying no thank you, going NC and being detached is a big 180 for me but it feels like a good place to be right now. What a slow learner!
Going through an MLC divorce is pretty odd (quite apart from the fact that I never imagined we would get D!) I couldn't really tell you why he wants a divorce because he 'forgot' to say! And having filed in January, he has spent months getting in the way of his own divorce process and making every sensible low-cost option impossible. Even his own lawyer has told my lawyer off the record that she is finding it difficult to get him to respond to her or communicate...Avoidance is certainly his new middle name and he should get a tattoo of that really. I suppose MLC crazy combined with D crazy just means the fun keeps coming doesn't it?
I decided yesterday that one of my goals is not to invite WTF more into my life by snooping. I could ring OW office and confirm that she is away this week, but really what practical difference does that make? Unless my STBXH does something different, it is less demeaning and more practical to assume (mind read a bit!) that a) he lies if his lips are moving b) the last facts I have suggest he is living part of the time with OW & planning to remarry as soon as he can and c) the MLC version of him is not reliable, rational or trustworthy. I'll let my lawyer do her thing and it will all bubble away on the side. My strategy is to detach, put myself first and do nothing without thinking.
And me? I've been doing pretty well on GAL stuff and have more plans for trying new things...musing on boxing vs learning to play the drums for repressed rage, what do you think? My biggest priorities are Work & Rubble. Work because I run my own business and need to rebuild it after the last couple of years. Rubble because, as well as dealing with the practical rubble of our 20 years, I'm still dealing with 50+ years of my parents' stuff - houses, legal & financial things - and it all takes a lot of time and energy. I think my early New Year resolution for 2018 is to go the whole year without talking to a lawyer about anything at all!
I sleep better. I don't eat much still. I need to stop smoking again. I wish that whatever happened to my husband hadn't blown my/our life up but it did, and after such a long time in this confusing dark place, I really want to get it in the rear view mirror soon. I'm not lonely, but I am sex-starved! But it is just a bit too early for me to date yet...I think I might need to wait until I'm legally divorced...we'll see. So, detachment is hard and a bit sad but also it is quite relaxing to stop trying to guess what will happen next or repair things I didn't break. I can just focus on me and things that are in my gift and control.
How do you make sense of what was real in your M before MLC? Especially if you're having to do it on your own because your H refused to talk about it. Sometimes I wonder if I was just conned for 20 years and this awful person is who he truly was. If there were terrible things I didn't know.
Hi Treasur
You sound like you're doing well generally although you have been on this journey a long time and that scares the life out of me. I don't believe you were conned for 20 years it's MLC and he is now a different person to the one that was your H the same as mine. All the evidence says 2-7 years and that's if they ever come out of it.
Have a lovely weekend
SJ x
I seem to have hit a funny second wind of grief (or 500th!) as I'm working hard to build my detaching muscles. I just miss my H. The sound of his voice, his smell, the feeling of him in another room. I think this is the first time I've cried in months. I thought I would always be able to reach out and feel his hand.
I know my H is not available anymore. Sometimes I worry that I'll forget what he looked like before he became Mr Depressed Shark Eyes. He isn't available because he's lost himself or he's fine with the OW and happy. It doesn't matter really. His absence is the same.
I think I'm grieving again because I love him, and I hate what has happened to him, and there is nothing I can do about it. And, more than just detaching, I know I have to choose to go dark for my own survival really.
I know some of you know how hard this path is and how hard it is to keep doing things which are hard to do when you're tired. I just miss my husband's face.
Treasur,
I'm sorry you feel this way. My W told me only yesterday that she has filed for D and I'm already starting to miss my family. I hate this feeling and can't wait for time to heal my wounds. Like you, I'll miss my W's voice, her smell, the feeling of her in another room, the smell of dinner cooking and being called to the table, and just growing old together. As a counter balance, I have to remind myself that she's having an EA (I know it's a symptom of our failed M)and continues to believe that she hasn't done anything wrong to lead us to where we are.
I truly feel for you as I feel that same. Try to stay strong. I'm so glad I've found this forum. Had I not, I would be pursing her like mad to win her back, but I don't. I'm GALing the hell out of my life and it really works! I don't care if my W notices, I'm just having fun as it takes my mind off the D. Also, my S and I are super close, so we always do fun things together.
Take care,
Teppo
How do you know when detachment moves to not wanting your spouse back, even if it were possible? Do any of you feel that? Have any of you seen someone you recognise still after MLC fog?
I feel like I'm standing on a funny dotted line between detachment and no expectations and detachment because I WANT to walk away. Practically I don't know if it changes my actions as things are right now, but it is niggling at me.
I love my husband but I know the old M is dead and I mourn most of it. But I don't know if he even exists anymore behind this strange man he has become. I used to have faith that the core of him was still in there but I really don't know. And no-one healthy would want who he seems to be now.
Hi Treasur
If you look on the MLC forum there is some good stuff on there. Can't remember exactly which thread it is but there is one that I think would be really good for you to read. I'll have a look when I get chance and let you know.
I'm so sorry you're feeling down but keep pushing forward and remember your goals.
Much love
SJ x
I think I'm not sure what my goals are now, for me yes. For the situation with my marriage, not so sure. I think there is just a big bit of me that is so tired of the horror and craziness of it that I just want to change tack and speed the divorce up so I can get away from it.
I still find it all a bit unbelievable that this is my husband, and that this is now our story. Which is ridiculous because it is real...but it's pretty hard to reconcile who we were together and where we are.
Treasur
I think you have a really good outlook. Many of us posters hang on and ruminate. And I don't see that in you're posts.
Doing whatever you need to do to get away from all this is healthy for you.
It is really hard to accept that our spouses and relationships changed the way that they did. It makes so sense, but look at these forums. It happens all the time. We can explain it all away, as mlc,family of origin issues, depression, addiction but it does not matter. Because our spouses have made their choices and we have nothing left but to accept it and move forward.
I'm sorry. It's hard. We have to mourn and grieve and get angry and deny and then ultimately move on.
Just focus on the goals pertaining solely to you. Not your relationship.
Thanks, juju. Just feeling sad today. Small pity party. Two years ago I had a father, a mother and a husband who I thought cherished me. Now my father is dead, my mother doesn't know who I am and my husband is unrecognisable, seems to think I am completely worthless and is living with OW planning his next wedding...
I miss all three of them, and I miss being a daughter, a wife and a lover. Hey ho, it is as it is.
Also, I have been thinking a lot about how someone can change. And I just wonder if it's that we saw them with rose colored glasses when they were with us.
They were never truly put to the test for committed adults.
I almost feel like they discarded us and no longer treated us with basic human kindness and courtesy because we were no longer of value to them or no longer simple and easy.
Most of our spouses leave after crises or hardships in life. Death, sickness, children. They can't handle it when things get hard. They are fair weathered people. But it's hard to know what they are truly like until the weather changes.
It might not be them that changed. Only the weather.
I think that's a fair point, juju. I guess, with a compassionate eye, everyone has their breaking point and deals with tough times differently. In our case, we had a year before BD of illness, loss and work stress. Both of us were struggling. Something in my H just broke.
Rose-coloured glasses? I think that's partly true, partly not. When you love someone and you're in a long-term relationship, you give them the benefit of the doubt. You know they have faults, as you do, but you enjoy the good which far outweighs that. Over time, maybe that does tint our view. At the same time, NOTHING in my experience of almost 20 years of my H (and everyone else who knew him was as shocked as me!) could have foreseen this s***storm. It is as if he became almost the exact opposite of who he had been and lots of crazy stuff that wasn't even in his best interests. For me, that has been the most difficult thing and why it is so clearly the kind of identity crisis and immaturity that goes with MLC.
It does feel as if they discard us because we're no longer doing the 'job', doesn't it? I've wondered sometimes if part of my STBXH is angry with me that I couldn't 'save' him somehow, that our M wasn't enough. But then as we all know...a) not sure anyone should base a life on the thought processes of an MLCer!, and b) it truly is about them...or as you say the weather!
Journalling
Detaching is a very funny process. The logical bit of it is easier once you get past the first stages of shock. The action bit of how you respond to texts etc gets easier and you train yourself (with help from wise folks here!). But the emotional bit is hard...time helps, not seeing them helps...but it is still hard. Maybe it's a connecting point between LBS and the MLCer that each exists in our heads as who we were...for us, that's a place of love and care, for them, something to be afraid or suspicious about.
I feel as if, if I lose sight completely of who my H really is/was, I will detach so much that I will let his MLC rewrite my reality too. But if I don't detach, I'm denying the current reality. Gah..
I feel as if, if I lose sight completely of who my H really is/was, I will detach so much that I will let his MLC rewrite my reality too. But if I don't detach, I'm denying the current reality. Gah..
Rewrite your reality? No going to happen... Not on our watch.
Something I learned... The hurt happened. The pain happened. The shock and the awe of all it happened. Pack this all up and put it in a tidy box.
The emotional part of your D is done. Moving forward, this is all about business. It is your job to make the best deal for YOU. This isn't to say to screw him over or be unfair. Your first obligation, at this point, is YOU.
Another piece of advice... Quit trying to understand MLC. Look, I lived one. Looking back, I am amazed (and not in a good way, either...) at some of the things I did and thoughts that I had and felt that they were normal. I quit trying to understand the whys, whats, and therefores... I think you should, too.
I am rooting for you. I believe that you are stronger than you know.
Thank you, MrCAS. My logical head can do the D business thing, although of course Mr MLC is making a meal of it. I can be pragmatic about it and my L is wise.
Maybe for me the truth is that the emotional bit of the D isn't done. In my heart, he's my H and I miss him. I can survive this. I expect to never see or speak to him again. But I miss my best friend and my lover and playmate. Just do.
I get what you say about understanding MLC too. Tbh, before I experienced multiple bereavements, I had no idea what grief was and even now I'm not sure I could explain it to someone who hadn't been there. It helps to see the broader patterns. It helps to know I didn't cause it and can't fix it, but the details of it don't matter.
It's a bit pathetic I know but it would comfort me to know that some part of my H still loves me. Like when my Dad died, I couldn't stop him going but it helped me to know that he loved me and wouldn't have left by choice. Stupid. I'm being stupid today. I just miss my family, all of them. I want to tell them about my new GAL stuff and new goals. Tomorrow I will put my head back in charge.
Oh Treasur I'm really feeling for you today but as you said to me we all have duvet days this is s**t and there's no getting away from that. Your H loved you this person is not your H, will he ever be again who knows but you can't change it only he can do that.
SJx
Ah, SJW, you just made me cry. I haven't cried in months and the is the third time this week. I know this is not my beloved, he's broken and is like an anti-H. And who knows what will happen to him. With this next step in detaching, I feel like I'm grieving all over again. Which [censored].
Crying is good for the sole my lovely and it gets rid of unnecessary salt in the body, lol. Seriously though you are having a little bit of a down day and we can all have those. You have been through so much but focus on how much you have learned from it. Cliché I know but what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. You sound like a very beautiful compassionate woman and 53 hell that's the new 33 you bagged a younger model why not go for an older one who will spoil and adore you or let's just give it a wide birth for now.
Hope you feel better tomorrow. I will try to catch up but summer holidays start so I'm children bound.
SJx
I don't believe "That which doesn't kill just makes you stronger". I think it makes you bitter. Angry. Disillusioned.
When I look back on all the stuff my XW heaped on our marriage with the PAs and EAs, I have to shake my head at the amount of pain it all caused.
What matters is how we choose to react. I am a firm believer in "as if". I told my XW to do what she was going to do but I was done playing. I told her that it was going to hurt, that I was going to cry, that I was going to grieve, that I was going to get over it, and that I was going to get on with the rest of my life. If she wanted to be a part of that then that was great and if she didn't, that was okay, too.
What I have found is that a lot of WASs do is listen to advice from people that have no vested interest in the situation. These people will tell them to dump their spouses and live this magical life. Funny, at the end of the day, they go home to their spouses, their kids, and live in their homes whilst the WAS is often left out in the cold wondering why they listened to these people to begin with.
I have a feeling my XW is based on what these great people have told me afterwards. Look, I feel sorry her life is what it is and she is shacked up with OM pretending to be happy but that is the path she chose.
I won't tell you my life is exactly what I want. Heck, I rent the guest wing in my sister and B-I-L's house. I freelance work and stay busy. However, I have learned to make the best of what I got and have no illusions. I am in a happy place as far as my mind goes.
Well, I have rambled on long enough...
Thanks SJW - I was having a super bad day yesterday, not sure why. I think when I cry some of it is just about the horror of it all, at what he's become, and the pain for everyone including him. I saw some mutual old friends at the weekend who loved us both, but people don't get it do they? They think it is just a standard H runs off with a blonde game. That would have been much easier - easier to be angry too - but it is all the mad stuff that goes with it. It means I have to take a step back and remind myself that no, this crazy stuff isn't normal. That it isn't me deluding myself. That I'm not mad. My uncle said to me recently that if you put this stuff in a book, people would say it was nonsensical and too far-fetched. Yup. But I still have to deal with the practical effects of it. (That does make me angry sometimes.)
I think I'm with you, MrCAS, but I think what doesn't kill you makes you weaker for a while before you get stronger. I feel like I've been hard pruned like an old climbing rose! Like you, life is far from rebuilt and I'm still limping, but I am rebuilding slowly. I'm lucky that I have pretty good self-esteem and strong values and faith. Without those, I would have got lost in the mad confusion of it all. I don't know what will come next for my life but I've always known that this wasn't down to me.
I suppose what has mattered to me most is to not let my H's dark rollercoaster suck me into becoming who I am not or rewriting my reality. I can't control either my mother's dementia or my husband's chaos. It hurts when she spits in my face because she thinks I'm the devil. It hurts to see that my H lies and steals and sees me and our marriage as worthless. But I know I'm not the devil and I know I'm not worthless even if the crazy people think so! I can choose to be compassionate and rational, even when I feel hurt and attacked and overwhelmed. Still, I miss my mother as she was just as much as I miss my beloved.
I guess sometimes it is all so horrific that, like you, I just shake my head at the pain and destruction of it all, at how extreme it all is and how little I can do to change that other than turn away from it. And have a massive umbrella to protect myself from my H's storm!
Journalling
Hmm, the detachment journey is an odd one. It has kicked up some quite intense emotions in the last few days which felt like a step back but actually is a step forward.
For perhaps the first time since this inconceivable chaos entered my life, I feel content to let things unfold. Or the bits of my life that still have my H's hands in them.
What's changed? Well, I still love my H and wish this wasn't our story but I am genuinely ambivalent about wanting what he brings now in my life. When I read about the timescales and how hard it is to know if reconnection is real, how they can bolt again and how much effort and emotional discipline is required in piecing...it's exhausting to just look at it. So, even if the unlikely things happened, I truly don't know if I would want to invest the time and effort now even though another bit of me wants a 'happy ending'. I don't know but I'm comfortable to know I don't know, and know I don't know how things will unfold, but that I can see positives in all the possible routes forward. It feels ok to say I'll stick that all in one corner and I'll be fine to decide how to respond to whatever happens, between high-conflict Court case or more WTF surprises or my H reappearing again with a clearer purpose.
What's helped? Saying no thank you to his last 'let's chat' plan by being clear with him (and me) about my boundary. That irrespective of the reasons, I can't chat to people who can't treat me with respect and who lie to me. Simple. If my H - for his own reasons, whatever they are - wants to talk to me, he will choose to take responsibility for acting in a way that respects me. Or he won't. Not my circus etc. But for me it also means that, for the first time, I am truly not trying to 'get' him to do anything and I don't feel as if I am waiting or watching to see what he will or won't do. My boundary is clear and I'm comfortable with the consequences of it for me, so I can put it aside and focus on my own goals and priorities. There is a deadline of sorts (which I'm sure my MLC H hates!) but it's a function of the legal process he started and how he has failed to engage with it, so again not my circus and not much in my control. I'm comfortable to let it unfold and it does feel better to have some timescale when things will take one route or the other. And going NC - even with the practical fyi stuff about the house sale I've done in the past to be transparent - really helps too. Dropping the rope to him and a bunch of other outcomes is quite relaxing!
So, a new week and my focus is on work, GAL, revising some of my goals and running by the sea.
Just found out that a neighbour's husband has just died. Not unexpected, but she's in that shellshocked grief stage. I called her and we chatted for a bit. About love and loss and being gentle with yourself and how you can't think straight. I think it helped her to be able to talk to someone other than her grown-up children and I've known them both for almost 40 years.
And then I got off the phone and howled.
My emotions are all over the place this week. Weird. I have to go through some paperwork here, have been avoiding it for a couple of days because it has some joint stuff in it. Right now, I feel sick...you know that sick anxiety feeling? Haven't felt that for a couple of months. I actually feel frightened but I don't know of what. Truly weird feeling.
Pre-WTF world, I used to be quite a rational woman, not one for big emotional extremes. I think I have become the opposite and I find it exhausting.
I think a lot of the legal process (even if you have trustworthy lawyers) brings out these emotions. Now we have to act as opponents with people we still love and with whom we lived and grew with. We still want to love them and care for them, but they are now people we need to fight against in court. This brings out a lot of difficult emotions. It is hard. And I believe normal.
We still love them, but they have and continue to do horrible things to us. We can't trust them. I remember how greatful I was when my ex was suddenly nice and normal acting with me...but it was always right before he needed something, or was trying to soften me during negotiations.
And it's hard to come to terms with their manipulations. Because we still love them, because it's hard to accept that they don't have the same feelings and respect for us or for narriage and committment that they once did. They are different from us and it's hard to understand how they no longer feel for us the way we do for them. And that commitment waste enough for them to work through those feelings.
Is it some form of Stockholm syndrome? Is it similar to how a parent who has to turn away their heroine addicted child feels?
You're story and sentiments are very similar to my own.
When my coworkers husband died, I cried at home too, because I imagined that being my husband.
I can see how this is a double whammy for you though. Your mom, changing with Alzheimer's and now your husband changing from who knows what. Like me, you don't have clear cut answers and it is traumatizing.
I don't have advise, because I am going through this as well. But I do understand the feelings of loss. It's not just a death. It's not just rejection.
It's someone that we loved that made us into an enemy and it's hard to understand that.
The D process needs to be separated into two pats... emotional and financial. One side should not be consulting with the other.
As far as us being our S's enemies? The onus for that is on them.
When dealing with an MLC, I feel a hard line and distance is what works best.
Quit trying to make any rational conclusions regarding the MLC spouse. Whether they are operating their though process through lower posteriorally inverted brain matter or their nether regions, the thinking is illogical and you will just end up with your head spinning or hurting...
I'm fine with the D paperwork and seeing it as a process to get some financial stability actually. My L is tough but calm, and I'm being the same. My H is acting like an idiot, of course. Tbh, his responses are more as if I had filed out of the blue and he was trying to drag everything out... No idea what he's thinking. As MrCAS says so wisely, not worth the speculation really. I just deal with the facts.
The paperwork that upset me is other stuff, but it is still a shocking reminder of what a great loving team we were until this stuff started brewing in my H. I just miss him and miss being on the same team, but it hurts because it feels like ancient unreachable history. But at the time, it was just normal and rather lovely. Seeing his handwriting (which bizarrely has changed too in MLC - who knew?) hurts. It is like he is dead.
When I was going through my own D, a member here used to club me mercilessly with a 2x4...
You have to realize that your M, as it was, is gone. No wishing or hoping is going to change that. Ask yourself... is that what you really want? If you you do reconcile w/ your H, then it is going to be a new beginning and none of what has happened in the past is going to have a place in the new future.
No amount on conciliation is going to change his mind about coming back. You have to make the best deal for you and not take his "feelings" into consideration. Right now, he is not on your team and is only looking out for his interests.
His ideas that this D was your idea is him gaslighting you. Don't fall for this. You know the truth and so does he. He seems to be trying to rewrite the history of this. Do not let him. He needs to be reminded that that this was his idea and that he was the one that initiated it.
2x4 appreciated, MrCAS. I know my M is dead. I know my H is not the same man. I know he lies and cheats and steals.
Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression though. D was his idea. He filed. He has never said it was mine, just failed to engage with his own process and whined about how it has made him more 'ill'. I have not responded to that other than via my L saying that his health is no longer my business. I have no idea what he thinks or feels about anything. I assume he lies about everything. I think the process is forcing him to see some reality about his own actions and consequences that he doesn't much like, but I don't spend time thinking about it.
I am past the stage where the word 'divorce' makes me gulp with shock. I can do the logical D thing. My weakness? I miss the man I knew (but I know he's dead). And I am still sometimes horrified by the WTF chaos the new version has made of his life and mine. It is a horrible mess (but not my horrible mess).
Actually just read this post by 25 in another thread. I think this is where my head and actions are, and why I see the D as being a good thing for me, MrCAS. My heart misses who he was, but even my heart doesn't want to be married to a self-destructive liar, a thief and a cheat who lacks the courage to own his own s**t. I'm sorry that the man who loved me unravelled into this, but being sorry doesn't change the reality of what he is now.
"Our choice is pretending to be married to an unstable dishonest cheating man- or to divorce him."
Our M wasn't perfect - whose is? - but tbh, we never got the chance to even look at that because he imploded and ran away. The WTF mess is his responsibility. Our M is a shared one. And no, I'm not thinking about reconciliation. I just can't see it as remotely possible from here and even thinking about the effort involved is exhausting. I'd rather miss my H than deal with more MLC WTF from who he is now. But I do miss him and I am sad about what has happened. NC helps a lot which is why I said no to his recent 'chatting' plan!
Yesterday was the first day I have felt hatred and anger. And back to anxiety, mostly about money. Gosh, this dropping the rope stuff purges a lot of emotion, doesn't it?
I didn't marry someone knowing they were a coward, a liar and a cheat. Or that I was a gullible trusting fool who would let my beliefs about M and who my H really drag me to my knees in a painful limbo of indecision for over a year. But both of these things are true.
I think my goals are different now. I think I don't know who my H is or if he ever was the decent man I thought he was. I think I deserve way better than this crazy destructive s**t. I don't want to reconnect with what he is now and I don't believe in him enough to even make the effort. I just want the D done and to look back at this awful time in the rear view mirror. My L is good but I am dealing with a situation where - for whatever reason - my STBXH is not responding to L's letters, not dealing with the practicalities of house/possessions etc and really dragging things out. And when he does respond via his L, he tells stupid lies or ignores questions he doesn't want to answer. The next logical step, having exhausted all the other sensible ones, is to take it to Court and on the 15th August, that is what I will have to tell my L to do. The disadvantages? It will drag us into an expensive 6-18 month process and delay finalising the D. For me, that means a delay in getting some financial stability, spending money we don't have and still being connected to him. For him? The same plus will prevent him marrying OW if that is his intention.
Would really welcome any ideas? Bearing in mind that a) he filed in Jan and it took him until June to produce even partial financial disclosures, b) I am currently NC and have recently refused his invite to 'chat' and c) he is still in treatment for severe depression which he also used as a reason for ignoring me for over a year so silence and avoidance are his favourite go-to approaches. Don't need or want to speculate on what is in his head (who would want to go there?) but it would be good to avoid mutual self-assured legal destruction if possible. Anyone else found a way to do that with someone who looks like a paid up MLC club member?
Treasur,
I must confess that I'm not entirely sure what your question is. Sounds like he filed for divorce, is not cooperating, and you have to do something (is August 15 a deadline to file an answer in the divorce, complete discovery--the disclosure part, or take some other action)?
Hard for me to imagine someone kicking themselves for staying in limbo for a year. I've been here 7 years. Now that is worthy of a serious talking to of one's self, no?
I read your post and bttfly's post and I see lots of people mention love. I realize that I never talk about love in mine. How could I possibly love someone who has done to me the things he has. I know in my case the predominant emotion has been fear and that is just insane. If not fear, than projecting qualities of decency onto him that he does not deserve.
You didn't choose any of this stuff or put it into motion. The only question is, are you going to protect yourself? If you are ashamed about a year, how would you feel about 7?
What is going to make the seismic shift in your life that you seem to be wanting.
I guess my question was if anyone can think of anything (non-lawyerly) I can do to get him to act so we don't have to take the Court route?
The deadline is mine. After he reappeared wanting to 'chat', and full of word blah about 'taking responsibility'... I told him he had a month to act differently if he really wanted to earn my trust, talk to me and try to 'salvage something from the horrible mess he has made' (his words). A month ends on the 15th August.
Fair point about beating myself up...actually this all started in Oct 2015. Since then he has said virtually nothing about anything at all, including why he wants a divorce. He could drag this out for years unless I take the Court option but there are real disadvantages to it as I said.
What I want now? I've spent 21 months on my knees with every emotion under the sun. (we all know what that's like!). I just couldn't get my head round the craziness of what was happening or how unrecognisable he was from the person I thought I knew. But as I have detached, I've got more logical and tougher with myself. It is what it is and I can't understand or change it, but he has been extremely cruel and virtually silent for most of that time. My priorities are twofold really; to create some financial stability for myself and to create some emotional stability by getting away from his WTFness. I can't heal and rebuild without that. So, I need to get a financial agreement in place which probably means getting divorced too. And I need to sever any practical connections I have with him like houses, insurance etc.
Going to Court will eventually do that but it will cost thousands and take up to 2 years. Far from ideal. But, what else can I do with someone who is slowing down their OWN divorce process which I presume he still wants and certainly OW looks like she does? Makes no sense why he wouldn't want to get it done or why he would want the Court route, but not much has made sense since Oct 15 really and I can't be mind reading any more.
So, I'm just looking for ideas because I'm plumb out of them! (And I do/did love my H very much but it is hard to remember who he was and impossible to want who he is now. I suppose what love and my vows mean to me is that I tried my best to treat him with kindness and respect. But he is currently not loveable, trustworthy or acting in a way that earns respect. And I need to get out of this horror he's made because I hate it and I want better for myself.)
Treasure
Your story resembles mine. My ex deflected questions pertaining to missing money. I was convinced it was because he had secret investmemts and was hidimg it from me. I was convinced i needed lawyers to protect me and advocate for me. He kept trying to tell me he had nothing, and that didnt make sense to me. Well, now it does.
Definatly read up on that site i recommended about how lawyers prey on woman in divorce. Amd consider whether what you can actually recover will be worth the cost of court.
In hind site, a mediator (who is an attorney) would have been abke to get my ex to disclose and i would have hired a personal lawyer to review my decree).
Once the money is gone its usually gone and if your ex has mental instability or a drug issue will you even be able to recover?
Im only mentioning this based on my experience. Each of our situations is different. And i am traumatized by my legal experience, so take my advixe with a grain of salt.
Youre ex seems to want to communicate with you, but could it be because he has stuff to share about finances? Could it be shame and a fear for his career, or reputation if some serious vices are revealed?
Eventually it will come out, but do you think you can get him to disclose directly to you amd save the legal fees? The conflict, the battle?
"What is going to make the seismic shift in your life that you seem to be wanting."
A legally-enforceable financial settlement and no practical need to contact him. Short answer!
"Youre ex seems to want to communicate with you, but could it be because he has stuff to share about finances? Could it be shame and a fear for his career, or reputation if some serious vices are revealed? Eventually it will come out, but do you think you can get him to disclose directly to you amd save the legal fees? The conflict, the battle?"
I just can't tell, juju. When he wanted to talk, he was clear that he DIDN'T want to talk about anything 'substantive' as he called it until the 'financial stuff was dealt with'... He wouldn't say why he wanted to chat other than muttering about 'keeping the communication doors open' (!) and that there were 'big important things' he wanted to to talk about then. Really no idea.
I've been trying, and failing, for 6 months since he filed to communicate (talk, email, carrier pigeon) about practical stuff. For months, he wouldn't even respond to an email about the selling price for the house or renewing an insurance. Literally silence. Given that, I tried mediation but he wouldn't show up. Tried lawyers' (endless) letters but it takes him 4-6 weeks to reply to each one and he lies or avoids questions he doesn't want to answer. So, no, unless I was smoking wacky baccy, I think it looks unlikely he will talk to me directly about these things unless anyone has any brilliant ideas?
Doing a bit of mind reading? I think it is hard for him to look at the reality of some of what he's done, so shame might be an issue. He may even be slowing things down as a passive-aggressive battle with OW if she is putting pressure on him. He might have thought that 'chatting' would soften me up so I wouldn't let my L be so tough or take him to Court.
But tbh, I don't get it really. If you run away from your M, start an A and file for divorce, why wouldn't you want to get it done in as calm and inexpensive a way as possible? No idea.
Same thing with my H,
He filed immediately after moving out, OW's father even helped pay the retainer and had him use the L he used for his D
Anyway, I got served and then NOTHING, for months, crickets, until I said I'm ready to get this over with, then he became like your H, pretty resistent to everything.
Point being, who knows... he wants to live in fantasy land and discussing D is just taking him back to reality. I sometimes think these H's who have OW file quickly so that they can feel better about what they're doing. Like well I filed for D so it's not really cheating.
Again, this is all speculation, but just a thought.
Unfortunately, you can lead the horse to water but can't make him drink. He is just going to choose to make things harder on himself. But the higher they are, the harder they fall
Wise words, T - hadn't thought about the 'well I've filed so it's not really adultery' game!
My gut says - for what it's worth - that it is about avoiding reality and I think he might just be seeing what a truly horrible mess he's made for himself. (Not sure he gives a stuff about me though!) I guess when they literally run away and won't talk at all, it is easier for them to live in fantasy land isn't it? When your H filed, that was the first time? Did he ever say why he was resistant to getting on with stuff?
Hey ho, I guess you're right - was just hoping someone would be smarter than me and have a cunning plan that worked for them!
Right, my H was going on vacations, very enthralled with OW and avoided any discussions with me. We didn't talk much if at all. He didn't want to talk about anythign because it reminded him of the life he was trying to erase.
Yes he filed a few weeks after BD. Actually the BD for me was coming home to find out he had left. There was no conversation until many weeks later.
When we were piecing and R ... I asked a lot of questions about why he came back, what he was thinking, etc etc because I wanted to know everything. I tried to come back here and help others with that knowledge because at the time a lot of people on this board thought my H was one of the most terrible ones they had seen.
As far as the D process... he said that he didn't like his lawyer and had just filed and never heard anything more. That he wsa told these things take a long time. He said once my L started pressing his is when he started seeing reality. How permanent his choices were and how badly it would affect the boys. This put him in a bad mood, miserable, and OW didn't like it. He wasn't the fun carefree guy to go out and live this wild fantasy life.
So I'm not sure what that answers for you. That he wasn't concerned about pursuing D because he was living his new life. That he had filed and felt like that was enough to clear his conscience and that he said he was pressured into filing because OW wasn't going to put up with his old life mixing with his new life. But once he was held to the fire it started taking its toll on him. He and OW started having problems because from what he told me *which who knows the truth* she didn't like that he had to be in contact with me. He didn't like that he would text me while they were away for the weekend even if it was regarding kids or bills. She just didn't like that he had a past. H doesn't deal well with people telling him what to do or being negative, then he turns miserable. He said he turned miserable and she didn't want to be around him and he decided it was time to move out of her dads and get his own place, then they split up and well the rest is history.
Ok, in the defense of my profession, not all lawyers are out to take advantage of clients. My lawyer, to whom I've only paid about $600 at this point and has not even requested a retainer (this for in excess of 2 hours of very specific discussion of my case and additional review of my documents), was adamant that I not file for divorce because of concerns that my H will use the process to hurt me and my children (and I now realize because there is an important timing component that affects the distribution of assets under state law), and has the resources to do so.
It is important to find the right lawyer, not the first one and not the cheapest.
It is also important to recognize that it is timidity in the legal process that is expensive. Bold, decisive action often shortcuts a more expensive drawn-out process. T that applies to your situation as well.
I filed first because my attorneys advised that i did based on the fact that we lived in 2 different counties. I was told that if he filed first, his county was more unfavorable to women. (I believe it was a scare tactic for me to hurry up and retain the lawyer though.) So it could be based on tacticle advise of the lawyer he hired, but meanwhile hes not emotionally ready for it.
Sorry ownit, i didnt mean to insult the entire profession. My attorneys firm had an a+ rating on the better business bureau. I was referred to them by someone that worked in a prestigious law firm. The attorney i retained went to a top law school, had articles written, and billed 500 dollars an hour.
I think they saw me as an easy mark because i do not have a legal background and was definatly in a vulnerable state
To be fair, I trust my L. She worked with my on my dad's probate and my mum's guardianship and has known about this unfolding chaos since Mar 2016. She is as frustrated (in a calm lawyerly way) at how unreasonable and dishonest my H is being. She is not pushing me to do this, but just thinks we have run out of other options to protect my interests.
In the UK, legal divorce and financial agreements are separate things, so because my H filed - particularly if he wants to remarry quickly - he has an incentive to finalise the D but no real incentive to deal with the nitty-gritty financials. And the partial financial stuff so far has exposed some of his lies and rather dodgy financial behaviour, as well as providing evidence of who the OW is. From his POV, fantasy land is living on his aunt's million pound houseboat in London for free with maid service and bunking up for free in our old home town in OW's house the rest of the time - he's not suffering in a cold attic!
T - some of what you say sounds a bit like my H - someone else called it the zipless divorce! As if you say the magic D word and all is resolved with legal fairy dust... Reality may be biting but of course we don't have children. I think when H was trying to talk to me, he was trying to drop word blah hints that there may be trouble in OW paradise and that things weren't as I thought. But I didn't want to chase that cheesiness tunnel so I ignored it and refused to put the mind reading turban on! He certainly seemed surprised that after months of ignoring me I said 'no thanks' to the chat on the phone every day idea...it may be sinking in that this is a horrible mess, that he has burned his bridges with me and that he's going to come out of it with not much more than his salary and OW. But, as we say, not my circus etc...
Sorry, meant cheeseless! How do I edit? And how do I do that clever insert quote box thing?
Hit the "quote" button at the bottom...
You are very welcome... Care for some crisps?
Salt and vinegar? With a cheeky Chardonnay?
Have to go to our old house today which is up for sale, to clear some last bits and pick up mail. Dreading it. Still can't believe this is what happened to my marriage and my life. Like a massive trigger with boots on. Life just became lunacy two years ago and nothing makes sense really even now. Really dreading it but it has to be done.
You will be in my thoughts today. Take deep breathes.
Yes, Treasur, you'll be in my thoughts, too.
It will be hard, but we can do hard things.
"This is anything but easy, but you are anything but weak."
Ok, I'm back. Big brave girl pants worked. Needed them because I had to go to our old house and my parent's old house. It just hurts and after almost 2 years I'm tired of hurting.
Either God or my Dad intervened. I went to put flowers on my Dad's grave and my Uncle happened to be there. I had a shoulder to cry on because I just miss all three of them so much and I feel so alone sometimes. Like a child really; I just don't get how my loving H turned into someone who would want to be so cruel. Where did all that love and friendship go?
I'm struggling this week, I know. I'm doing the practical things I need to do, but sometimes I wonder if the pain will ever go away. I've been a teensy bit suicidal...not seriously as I was a few months ago when I had a plan...but just tired of hurting and tired of a life that feels so mad and not mine.
(((Treasure)))
The pain will go away. Its all impermanent. Feelings (both good and bad) come and go.
When i get down like that, i remind myself of who i am. That i did nothing wrong or to intentionally hurt someone.
And that we are all going to die eventually any way. So what things can i do right now that i would regret not doing of i was to go tomorrow.
Sounds like its time for some self care.
Thanks, juju. I think I'm just tired of pain and grief. Losing my parents and my H simultaneously, my home, my garden, my financial stability, my mental health for a bit...it's been a heavy load. Self-care is tricky sometimes because I just feel exhausted by the rubble that needs to be dealt with. I guess it is an adjustment too because until this, I was a very lucky person and blessed with a lot of love so maybe a bit complacent.
Better this morning. As you say, I have learned that feelings pass.
I've been reading ... and other posts here, and they have helped me see the need to drop the rope and stop smoking 'hopium'. Like everyone else, I've felt my STBXH had stolen my reality/history by overwriting it. I've veered from desperately wanting to hold on to my own good memories vs. wondering if it was all a fake. When I'm angry at the WTF chaos that STBXH unleashed into my life, I think yup, he never really was who I thought or loved me because you don't do this to someone you care about. But somehow, in my quieter moments, that doesn't feel like the truth. I could be wrong, of course I could, but in the end I think you have to trust your gut.
I think our relationship was good and mostly healthy. I think my H really cherished me and I see no evidence, even with a cold dark eye, that he wasn't the man I thought he was or was a serial cheater or abusive to me. I just don't. I think our weak spots were that I was an impatient fixer who mind read him too much and he was given to avoiding responsibility for his own s**t, taking the fixes but resenting the feeling of being controlled at the same time. I think we both got into a pattern of not talking about what we were both unhappy about in life, sometimes to protect the other person. I think he had broken bits from his FOO which I underestimated and a low-grade cycle of depression over the years. We had a rough life patch and both of us shut down a bit and disconnected. I think he was unhappy with his life, initially not with me, and then obviously decided I was the problem. I don't know if his A triggered his breakdown or if the breakdown led him to the A as a coping strategy. I do know that he was diagnosed with severe OCD/depression and has been in therapy since. I got the ILYB script. His pattern has been to run, hide and avoid me and every other bit of his old life. I can see ways in which our M could have been better but his choices meant we never had the chance to talk about them. Sad. Some of the WTF stuff has been pretty extreme and rationally just tells me that this isn't about me or even our M; it's about him destroying his old self and flailing around trying to create a new one. And bizarrely perhaps he felt we were too close for him to do that without destroying our relationship too. And he chose to talk to others rather than me, to run and to have an A - all of that rather than just talk to me. I think he was/is afraid to talk to me because of his assumptions about how I'd react. Some right, some wrong. And he decided that he doesn't love me and doesn't want me in his life.
Being rational again, it's as if he can't let himself see me or take a more moderate path even to S and D. Do I think he is happy and at peace with his choices? Logically, probably not. If he was, he would be handling the D process differently and acting more rationally.
None of this changes what is real now. I love my H and I would have taken a bullet for him. But I can't let him destroy any more of my life while he is busy destroying his own. Someone has to be calm and sane around here! Acceptance for me - and it has been hard - is that he is no longer the man I married and he brings chaos and destruction right now because that is where he is in his own life. I can be compassionate about that but I don't want to live a life full of WTF, where I am waiting for the next shock or feel threatened by his OW or by his crazy self-destructive financial/practical choices. And that is reality as it stands.
So, for me? The pain of losing my family will come and go. Whether I like it or not, my H will soon be my STBXH and is unlikely to ever talk to me again. I will probably never see him again or know what happens to him. I love him and I will miss him; he is unique for me and leaves a unique space. To D rather than just talk seems madness to me, but that is the choice he has made. It says nothing about me or my value as a wife or human being. I need a life that is not WTF crazy because it just isn't who I am and I resent it being forced on me. The only way to stop it is to turn my back on it, which means severing my links with him, which means D is the only sensible option. Followed by NC at all forever, as if he died.
So DBing is for me, not him, to save myself from the wreckage of his train wreck if that makes sense. But some days, it is very hard and I miss his pre-shark eyes face. I miss seeing him smile at me. I miss listening to his thoughts and ideas. But, if he had died (and he was suicidal for months), this is pretty much where I would be. The same pain, the same bewilderment, the same anger. When the D is done and there are no practical links between us at all, it will be easier to grieve for him and move forward without having to deal with the painful frustrating WTF reality of what he is now. It will be nice to remember my beloved without having to deal with this silent irrational monster who has replaced him.
Gosh darn it. I wish I could trade the divorce fearing part of my cold-hearted H for one of these good guys who got lost. Why do those guys run out and file and mine won't?
Treasur I had lots of people try to draw my attention to the fact that I was giving up my power and being weak and waiting. It cost me $600 to change my mental outlook. I found a way to get out of insanity-inducing limbo for my children and myself without having to go down the path of mutually-assured destruction. In short, a way to accomplish my goals without waiting for my H to bless them.
What could you do, actively, that would make you feel like you were doing something. I think I read somewhere that there are two ways to think about dropping the rope, one of them is almost an anti-action, just letting go, the other one forceful and active. An action rather than a failure to act.
What is the thing you would be doing now in your life for you, if he were waiting for you kindly and lovingly at home. Surely you wouldn't just sit in your lounge (right word?) staring lovingly into his eyes for the rest of your life. Instead of thinking of him as dead or gone, think of him as beside you and how you would be interacting with the rest of the world. Maybe that will help you find some actions that allow you to move on, at least until doing so feels more natural.
Gosh, OwnIt, great (gentle) 2x4 challenging question.
I think I was in limbo for a long time. To be fair to me, I was just overwhelmed by losing my parents and H simultaneously. If it had just been my H, I would have taken action sooner but I was lost in grief for about a year.
Detaching has been a gradual process for me over the last few months, and is has evolved from letting go towards a more active feeling. In the last 4 months, I decided to rent a house by the sea just for me (great choice) and start doing GAL things that were just about me from running to jumping out of a plane. No permission needed!
The next more active step has been to say no to my H's 'chat' suggestion and to choose to go NC completely except via the Ls, 14 days now. It's a 180 for me so by now he is probably noticing and it makes dealing with practical stuff more challenging. But I didn't do it for him in a drop the rope way; I did it for me in a no more WTF or waiting for him to act. I have also instructed my L to take us to Court in a fortnight because I'm done waiting for him to engage with the D he initiated. Again, that's an action for me - to secure my financial wellbeing and put an end to this WTF stage of my life.
If he were with me? (And you're quite right that we didn't sit around just gazing lovingly at each other!) The practical and emotional impact of my father's death and my mother's dementia would still have overwhelmed me, although my H would have helped. Grief is s**t and it would have battered me anyway. If he were here by my side, I would want to rebuild my business and find more joy in my working life so I feel like me again. I would want us to be stronger financially because my income was hit hard in the last two years. I would want to get clear of the post-death/dementia practical rubble as quickly as possible to make space and time for new things. I would want to focus on dreams and new adventures rather than day-to-day practicalities because those things are about life and joy rather than death and grief. I would want to feel strong and grateful rather than battered and grieving. I would want to feel engaged with life and friends and new challenges rather than a zombie observer.
Clever you...I'm going to print this out because you've helped me make a manifesto for what next, haven't you?
All I can say is Byron Katie - wow!
Nothing from STBXH (aka sound of silence) on either legal stuff or actions (ha ha) he is going to take if he does want to 'salvage' something as he said. Natch. No surprise but then I had no expectations. He won't know yet that my next L letter will be a last warning shot that I'll be taking us to Court on the 16th August...guess he'll get that on Monday.
Then text from him this morning because he is going to our old house to do some maintenance jobs I'd asked him to do months ago, asking me what else I needed him to do while he was there and that he'll be there from about midday. Friendly but teenage text speak (why do MLCers do that?). I left it an hour and replied 'Will you take out the bins when you leave? Thanks'. Hey ho.
What it made me think about is fear and assumptions. When I hear from him or anything to do with the legal stuff, I still get a sick feeling in my stomach. I feel as if I'm vulnerable and another WTF shock is coming. And that's a weird feeling because this used to be someone who loved me and who I trusted. I've never had fear and anxiety as a big thread in my life until two years ago.
And assumptions. I heard my head do this quick angry 'well, I guess you're having a relaxed sex brunch with OW in her house 5 miles away so not rushing over'. Stopped that. Then heard it replaced with 'well maybe you're not with her anymore and you are on the train up from London, which would explain the timing because the most likely train gets in at...' Stopped that too, although it took a bit longer. F**king hopium, grrr. Of course, I don't know. Either, or something else, could be true. He might even be lying about going to the house. No way of knowing.
What it does tell me is how far I am from being emotionally detached, even if I can do it logically with my actions. And how much I miss a past time in my life where my head wasn't constantly buzzing, I wasn't frightened and I took things at face value.
I hate this. I hate that someone who was my best friend took a flamethrower to 20 years of my life, s**t all over me and decided I was his enemy and OW his heroine. I hate it.
I too wonder how long it is going to take where I don't have a complete feeling of dread when I check my email or I hear the sound of a text coming in. I look forward to the sound of silence.
He doesn't value me, or our M or anything about the last 20 years. He's like a stranger. It s***ks. I hate it. And it isn't fair. None of this is fair.
Vent over
I'm with you there, Treasur and Ownit, on both counts.
For so long, you long for the sound of the phone or text. Then when things turn for the bad, you start to feel the stuff rise up in your throat when you hear it, saying to yourself while walking over to look. oh please, don't let it be more ugliness or abrupt, cold, negatives. Then it's not even from him. Just more silence and erasement from him.
I've changed his ring tone and text tone, so no more wondering from across the room. If it's him, I know it immediately. I've also changed his picture to one of Jack Nicholson with a cigarette in his mouth, and some nasty language printed on the picture, and changed his name in my phone to Lying Cheater. It helps me to detach. (Thanks for the idea, CL.)
Love it Leah.
He is supposed to come here this am to give me the POA for selling the house and to pick up the last of his stuff. I made a huge disorganized pile in the middle of the garage. I felt not one moment of sadness or grief. Just excitement at the thought of never having to see any of his stuff or the crap that he has made me haul around for years. This move is going to be a breeze.
Treasur, everything you say is true but it doesn't change anything. You and your marriage mean nothing to him right now. Don't let him mean anything to you. I will never be with someone again who doesn't want to be with me. I could care less if he thinks I am not good enough for him, I know the opposite is true.
Nothing from STBXH (aka sound of silence) on either legal stuff or actions (ha ha) he is going to take if he does want to 'salvage' something as he said. Natch. No surprise but then I had no expectations.
well, you say no expectations but I think your bereavement (perhaps) creates a need for comfort that translates into expectations. I'd attach nothing to his desire for a "chat" every other day for 10 minutes about nothing substantive and maybe improve it AFTER the divorce and all his fraud/theft is "over"??
Treasur, ^^ that is more crazy making for you.
Your divorce is the single most important financial transaction of your life.
Treat it that way. If you feel like talking to him when the whole lightning/storm has passed, then so be it.
For now, focus on the money and stop wondering what he meant by a feeble attempt at "something" on his end.
Who knows? Maybe he wants to soften your stance on the financial aspects, or just feel better about himself or probe to see how paved & smooth the path home would be...
What are your GAL activities? I ask b/c you speak of detachment a great deal but I really don't know how you can do that without GAL.
So, back to what you can control, you.
He won't know yet that my next L letter will be a last warning shot that I'll be taking us to Court on the 16th August...guess he'll get that on Monday.
Then text from him this morning because he is going to our old house to do some maintenance jobs I'd asked him to do months ago, asking me what else I needed him to do while he was there and that he'll be there from about midday. Friendly but teenage text speak (why do MLCers do that?). I left it an hour and replied 'Will you take out the bins when you leave? Thanks'. Hey ho.
What it made me think about is fear and assumptions. When I hear from him or anything to do with the legal stuff, I still get a sick feeling in my stomach. I feel as if I'm vulnerable and another WTF shock is coming. And that's a weird feeling because this used to be someone who loved me and who I trusted. I've never had fear and anxiety as a big thread in my life until two years ago.
I still dread emails - b/c one might be from my lawyer, and since h and I have NC, all i may have to deal with is a check in the mail, (I wish). But the anxiety resonates.
And assumptions. I heard my head do this quick angry 'well, I guess you're having a relaxed sex brunch with OW in her house 5 miles away so not rushing over'. Stopped that. Then heard it replaced with 'well maybe you're not with her anymore and you are on the train up from London, which would explain the timing because the most likely train gets in at...' Stopped that too, although it took a bit longer. F**king hopium, grrr. Of course, I don't know. Either, or something else, could be true. He might even be lying about going to the house. No way of knowing.
What it does tell me is how far I am from being emotionally detached, even if I can do it logically with my actions. And how much I miss a past time in my life where my head wasn't constantly buzzing, I wasn't frightened and I took things at face value.
try to get back to this^^^^....
I hate this. I hate that someone who was my best friend took a flamethrower to 20 years of my life, s**t all over me and decided I was his enemy and OW his heroine. I hate it.
well, all you know is the D is coming, you feel financially & Understandably concerned,
but you can slow down the mind reading about how he sees you and OW.
You don't know.
Just get your finances in order so you can lower the fears.
That will help a lot. When I separate the money issues from my divorce, I feel a lot better.
Like I can move forward faster.
There is ONE thing good about my h's hideous conduct, it's clarifying, and
my mourning process has speeded up...
How are your GAL?
Been reading LoisB
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2662875&page=6Thanks, 25. Here's what I'm proud of being able to do now.
- Taking control of the £/D process and breaking the loop of asking/waiting for him to behave like a rational person. Going to Court isn't a great choice, but it's the only one his behaviour leaves as a way to protect myself.
- Seeing that protecting myself is about money, but maybe even more about removing his insanity and WTF from my life. I want to feel calm and steady again. I need that to build new good things.
- That I can practically detach even though I'm not emotionally detached. Sometimes I flail around with all the same questions I did in the beginning...but I don't act on them like I did. I think it is hard to know what to do with the questions where you feel the other person is part of that conversation. But I'm learning (soooo slowly!) to focus on my own questions.
So, GAL? I've been pretty good at faking it - everything from small comforts to big adventures. Accidentally sometimes I've found little nuggets in there. But I am faking it; it still doesn't feel like more than a band aid.
I think that's because of two things really. The first is that the D process is like an ongoing reminder of the chaos and WTF. It will be better when it's done. The second, which is more important, is I'm not sure who I am now or what will make a better life than I had. (Not that it was perfect and some bits I don't miss at all, but it had some treasures too which are gone.) Surviving the last two years - not just my H but my family too - has changed me. Don't know if that's good or bad, just is. I'm way more introverted. I'm slower. I'm more scared and braver at the same time. I have no plan longer than about 3 months ahead. My faith is stronger. I'm more humble. I'm lonely but find it less tiring to be alone. I'm like this paler version of myself.
GAL for me is about three things next - building a new business which sustains me financially and emotionally; carrying on with the fake GAL stuff so I don't disconnect from life outside my head; physical exercise and feeling stronger.
And I guess accepting that I will never get how you love someone for years and treat them as my H has treated me. And that I have lost things/people who mattered to me and it hurts but they are still dead, so now and then I'll have a bad day.
"I wasn't frightened and I took things at face value." This is what I want.
Part of that is NOT doing things which INVITE chaos and lunacy into my life. I can't stop it going on around me, but choosing not to talk to him is about that. Choosing to stop waiting for him to engage with his own L or asking him to respond about practical things. No snooping or FB stuff. Reducing how often I visit my mother. Managing how much of my days are spent on the rubble of my M/my parent's stuff vs how much is about new things.
I know I've made progress, but not enough and it's taken me too long.
How do I do that please, Cadet?
Last post here before Cadet tells me what to do!
It's pretty hard to get divorced from someone who won't communicate with you, won't engage with his own divorce process (he filed) and won't pick up any of the practical joint obligations. For about 18 months now, with the odd pop-up and away again. I know many of you know what that's like and others have had worse than me.
I need some help/2x4s/LBS pixie dust.
We are probably weeks away from the D being final. The process of disclosure in June threw up some new shocks and facts for me. My reaction was to drop the rope and tell myself that not only was there no hope for any R but I shouldn't want one. The same process possibly forced my H to look at some realities he has been lying about and hiding from. He told me he was finding it difficult and starting to see that he had created a horrible mess. His reaction - as far as I can see - has been to stop responding to my L's enquiries and to ask me if (after months of ignoring me) we could chat every other day on the phone to 'keep the communication doors open'. He had no clear goal for this. I thought for a few days and said no thank you. I told him that I couldn't 'chat' to someone who was lying to me and had done nothing to earn trust back.
Yesterday he texted me to tell me he had gone to our old house to do some jobs I had asked him to do months ago (I've moved and house is up for sale). This is something different in his behaviour. He talked about cleaning it, which a few months ago in a L letter, he said he would arrange when he had cleared furniture etc that was left for him to remove. (Originally asked him about stuff he wanted in July 16. Just got text spew. He produced a list in Feb 17 but refused to move things until house was sold because he'd have to pay storage costs. It damages the appeal of the house but I initially said ok because I thought he was still living in aunt's apt in London. Disclosure suggests he is also living part-time with OW 5 miles away from our old house so my L had insisted he remove stuff but he kept refusing to.)
So, we have a house to sell which needs maintaining and some joint financial stuff until the house is sold. I've been p****d off that he ran away and left me to deal with everything. I was also shocked to realise he'd been living just a few miles away and I had anonymous death threats in July 16 probably from OW who I had thought was in London rather than in my home town. I want to be NC and not talk to him for my own wellbeing. I am frightened of being hurt anymore by his actions or by anymore nasty shocks. I have to return to the old town (I've moved an hour away) to deal with the house and to deal with some of my mother's financial affairs as she has dementia. I don't want to turn a corner and bump into either him or OW. I know he lies and he is still trying to be pretty secretive about his whereabouts and about OW.
I think I might have made a big mistake...one of those ones that you think is a good idea, but really isn't. We used to share a gmail calendar for logistics as both of us travel with work. I suggested to him yesterday that we could revive it to inform each other when we would be at the old house/old town so we wouldn't accidentally see each other but could coordinate on practical stuff. I thought this would be a super-minimal way of almost NC and keep me safe but I didn't think he'd agree. He did though. And now I feel back in the loop of anxiety and as if I've just created another vehicle where I get to wait on him communicating or not.
Mistake? What else could I do? Or do I just need to accept that there has to be some contact right now about practicalities and it's the least invasive option?
He is still not responding on the L side and will get a letter from my L tomorrow saying that, given this, we will be taking the next step of applying to the Court on 16th August. Which he and his L are not going to like.
I've been trying hard to think about what I want and need right now. My H (who I love) is probably in MLC-land. His silence and inaction left me in limbo for a long time. I need to get out of limbo and I need to get the decks cleared on stuff and money. A D I never thought I'd want is the price I pay for it. I don't want to con myself there is hope. I don't want to rub my nose in his lies and I can't make him tell the truth. I don't want to see him or talk to him if he is still in Replay because it will hurt me. The only change I can see in his behaviour is him suddenly chasing me to talk on the phone a month ago and that he is doing something (not sure what) about the old house. Other than that, I know nothing about his life or thoughts and I try hard not to guess. My assumptions need to be that things are the same - OW, secret life, financial chaos, under psychiatric care, lying, not responding to L stuff - unless I see objective evidence that something is different. And I don't think I do.
Advice?
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2753923#Post2753923