[quote]Your problem, Jim, is that you don't know where you stand in your MR, and that's why you bring up all these things and say she doesn't really fit the mold.[quote]
^^^This this this this and THIS. It is quite possible (POSSIBLE, though perhaps not PROBABLE) that my W is in a bona fide state of "no contact" with OM. And forgive me, for purposes of THIS post, I DO NEED to go into what SHE is doing:
The last in-person contact MAY HAVE been nearly four weeks ago (6/10). There have been other opportunities-- most notably this weekend right here and then she had lunch with bff three weeks ago on a weekend out kind of near OM's neck of woods, BUT... for the latter I knew where she was going, she knew I knew and at that point she also knew I was wise to the whole A, so doubtful she did anything there AND she was not gone for too long.
This weekend is a bit dicier: Three hours away, at beach, trip has been planned for months so I am CERTAIN that OM knew about it and, if not outright invited to stay with them (which I doubt-- small condo with other girls in it) could easily have made plans to also be there this weekend. Also, he IS on vacation this week (I called his office-- zero risk check-in which I hoped would put my mind at ease if he was in town) though that is potentially less meaningful as a clue given that it IS July 4th week. Also, my W's bff, who socializes with OM's crowd and may (I am not certain) have a new beau who is familiar with OM's crowd and who also has been an assistant/enabler of the A particularly on "girl's weekends" is the one who set the trip up and was in CONSTANT contact (both phone and text) with bff during our family's beach getaway in first half of week. Most notably, as I mentioned, the night we went out and stayed out late together she disappeared for 35 minutes at one point "to go to the bathroom" but actually to talk to bff (or at least to talk to someone on bff's phone-- when she was gone for so long I checked the phone logs.) She did share a number of texts between her and the other girls but didn't say squadoosh about the bathroom phonecall or indeed the several other calls she had with bff when I wasn't around at beach, maintaining she "limited her responsiveness because she wanted to hang out with us." Now, she confides in bff about EVERYTHING and always has, including our MR, so it doesn't have to be anything plotful and insidious but... they were talking a LOT. She had considered (or at least so she told me) not going at all and just coming home with the family, but then got "talked into" going down. She DID come home first so she could have her own car and come home Saturday as opposed to Sunday. Anyhoo... hard to read this one and I am not doing any kind of monitoring of her. Once I found out OM is also "on vacation" my assessment of the likelihood of a meet up is that it is not a certainty but still somewhat likely (say 50-75%, just knowing OM and how relentless he is and what wife's current frame of mind is.)
As to frame of mind, I will expand on the Friday counselling in a different post, BUT... while she has been distant and surly and pouty to a certain extent over past few weeks since I dropped MY bomb, she has not been the full-on emotional teenager I expected. (Idunno, maybe the previous couple of tries at NC where she DID kind of go off of the "Im trapped, I can't do this, 9-1-1" deep end was/were ACTUALLY the start of the withdrawal(?). At any rate, she is still "defending" OM's character, even in counseling, now has the "additional" doubt of WON she could have a relationship with me because she knows I don't trust her and she'd always be "second guessing" herself and wondering if she could go out with her friends and that she might not be able to "be herself" under such circumstances. And, right now, "hersfelf" at least as she puts it, involves her thinking of herself "with her girlfriends" or "on her own" more than it does with me. Finally, when we were talking about commitment to the process, and based on something that MC said I asked her if she could remain faithful to me and she said, tearfully: "i AM... but if this continues, if we stay together and things don't change between us i WONT be, i KNOW i wont be." Surprising, but, i suppose, honest words from her.
With that frame of mind, I am not sure what to think. She could easily, of course, be continuing in some sort of contact with OM, although her FB activity as fallen WAY off... sometimes no more than once a day or once every other day.. although OM is still on her "contacts" list and not, AFAIK, actually "blocked" even though she unfriended him. (She doesn't share her phone with me openly enough for me to discern all of that). He could be calling her on her work phone, as he has been wont to do in past, and bff could obviously be relaying messages. Again, I have no way of knowing. Last verified contact of ANY sort was a little over two weeks back she sent or tried to send him a card and small gift (t-shirt) for his birthday... something she had been planning to do with bff's help BEFORE i dropped bomb on 6/14, so she might have just been offloading it, IDK.
So that's the picture. If i AM legitimately at "no contact", it seems as Sandi indicates that I need to be trying to take advantage of that. And MC is cautiously of mindset that we need to be moving forward and building some positive momentum. And she (W) DOES seem interested in doing some things in terms of openness and transparency, though she always does it kind of obliquely and seems reluctant to come to me at all contritely and say "look, I know what I did was wrong... this is what I want to do to make up for it" which MC indicates is kind of important. (Though she did say, when MC asked in counseling "Yes, I know that what I did was wrong.") For instance, dinner out last week she wanted to have with bff (which I am PRETTY certain might have involved OM and some sort of birthday get-together of his friends) she waffled on back and forth and then, when I calmly voiced my concern she instantly backed off and said "yeah, I totally get that, I was thinking of not going anyway." So, are we at NC or aren't we at NC? IF we ARE at NC, then her mind/heart certainly does not seem to be into taking the next step (how could she run off with bff this weekend if so?) I just really am at a quandary as to how to handle my interactions with her, particularly when she comes home.
YES, i continue with my OWN 180 and GAL efforts, (which she HAS noticed... and maybe its just my own male vanity but i DO see her "checking me out" when she thinks I'm not looking and she HAS started noting my changes/improvements to friends (he's really getting into good shape these days and taking care of himself) rather than being so relentlessly negative) AND YES, I play it cool to a certain extent with her, but... am I still at a place where I want to drop the rope and/or keep hammering her on the transparency/openness? I really feel like I need to know if she is maintaining the NC and wish I had taken a little more effort to monitor things on this beach trip. If she is at NC, if I shut her out now seems to me could be counterproductive. Or maybe not. Thoughts please.
sandi2 knows what she is talking about...and I hate it. But she is absolutely right...unless she goes NC with OM there can be no path forward. It seems you and I have a similar sitch... Although in my case W has been more intimate lately (while not saying she is back in love with me).
as hard as it is to accept...it seems most of us go through the same trajectory. It's insane how common this is apparently...
More color from last MC session:
Friday counseling session was unsurprising in many respects-- the usual description of the magical soul-bonding relationship she wants to have and how she doesn't have any of those feelings for me and doesn't know if she can, an outright near-angry outburst where she came close to blaming me for the relationship being already "over" because of the pain I caused her by the time OM came on the scene, several statements to the effect that by harping on the affair we are "beating a dead horse" and not being helpful and only hurting our relationship (which she sees more like a friendship right now).
A couple of surprises, though, were that she came out with a couple of details about the A I did not know... one particular one about an early meet up between her and OM at Starbucks which she identified as being a "big moment" in her having feelings for OM where he "hurried ahead to open and hold door for her" and then where he "helped a little old man who needed help out the door as they were leaving" and it was then she realized he was a "good guy" (even though she allowed I would not believe that) and how she went back to her car and cried because she had been "missing that all these years" (and, yes, she was right, I was very self-absorbed and often not gentlemanly with doors and such over the years.) To me, this was a) good to hear from an honesty standpoint but b) hard to hear because it sounds more soul-mate-ey and harder to overcome than mere physical attraction.
Revisionist bomb she dropped-- apparently we only had sex five times in 21 years... and she was confident in and sad about that number. (For the record, while woefully insufficient, it was WAY more than that, though I didn't argue point at time because I was so dumbfounded and because she was in middle of pouring herself out.)
Also, we talked about the future and whether or not we would want to split "as a team" and "want each other to be happy", in the context of who knew what, family and friends, about our sitch and about the A. Particularly involving telling the kids. I reiterated that I had no intention of going around trashing her or outing her to anyone, though I did say I was not certain I would be able to lie to kids if one of them asked me point blank, BUT... I did ask her to consider, if "happiness" and "wanting the other to be happy" was so important, how happy she thought it would make me to internalize and carry around the betrayal that OM had committed against me, taking my wife, and then being introduced around to friends and family as this nice, new, clean relationship and as a "good guy" when the truth was so much different, and potentially, having a relationship with my sons, and what kind of example that would set for them if they found out. She was very quiet in response to that.
In sum, though, her general frame of mind seems to have changed very little and, in fact, I would say she even seemed slightly LESS committed/interested in continuing to work on MR than in previous sessions-- "Not sure I want to keep doing this."
She and MC talked a bit about being raised as the “good girl” and “not to do this or that” and how that is hard as a sexual being (MC is Christian Sex Therapist as well—who know there WAS such a thing—who believes sex is awesome and that God intended us to have LOTS of it—although obviously just with our spouses) and that what my W did was the “first thing she’s ever done just for her and just to make HER feel good/happy without thinking about anybody else.”
As to boundaries, transparency, openness, etc., in-session MC indicated that each couple is different and has to decide what works for them but that a "it's over" letter or call is pretty standard as is some sort of phone transparency. As a follow up to an IC exchange I had with MC today, she reiterated to me that it is entirely appropriate and indeed preferable that I enforce the line I drew with my wife regarding contact with OM, that I should couch it in terms of what I feel and what I can allow, but that it is something that I need and without which I can't and won't continue to work on the MR. Said it was okay for me to insist on something tangible and provable as opposed to sort of the ad hoc stuff I've been getting from W. Would be easier, of course, if I knew outright she was cheating still, which I don't know.
And let me reiterate that I am NOT afraid of separation... BUT... I strongly believe that if it comes to that that I am not the one who should leave the house AND I am still not sure how to "force" that issue if it comes to that. Rope dropping I can do. How to get to separation where I stay in the house is a mystery to me beyond the concept of saying I think that that would be appropriate and best given the circumstances, and then going completely dark.
Smh... Dude, did you even read what Sandi2 posted? I read her post and understood that the MOST important thing is that your WW needs to respect you, that you need to man up..
And you responded by giving percent of chances of her meeting up with OM, and are holding dearly to the percent that she's not... It doesn't matter if she met up with OM, if she wanted you, or to save M, she wouldn't have gone either way..
What you're doing isn't working, ready to try something else?
Jim,
I know this is really hard to take in sometimes and can be painful.
She has not given you a commitment to work on the M. She has be giving you many hints that she does not want that right now.
You keep analyzing contact, vs. no contact, but neither one matters until she says and shows you "I want to make this work"
Until that happens, you need to LET GO. Whether or not she is contacting, not contacting OM, until she is truly ready, there is no point in wasting your energy on that, and you are putting a lot of energy into it.
She is not committed to your M right now. She did some pretty cruel stuff like tantalizing you and then telling you she is not attracted to you. Until she stops this crap and beyond, forget about what she is doing and just DO YOU. You may have GAL, but you need 180's.
Pretty sure I just said what Coconut did.
Hoosjim
Not sure I'm following you.
Your wife SAYS she's not attracted to you in MC sessions and then in person. Says she wants what she feels for OM.
The things about boundaries you are repeating here, come from your IC/MC, not from your wife.
The percentages and the possibilities of your w "MAY have had contact with OM" and yada yada
are just, imo, you spending a lot of energy maintaining the illusion that your wife in all in with the marriage. She's not. To her credit, I guess, she says so pretty openly.
I'm not even sure why the charade of "working on the m" is happening, unless it's for her to bide her time with the boys and money and whatever else.
You're getting bogged down in options you think you have, but they relate to your w and not to JUST you. Take a look...
And let me reiterate that I am NOT afraid of separation... BUT... I strongly believe that if it comes to that that I am not the one who should leave the house AND I am still not sure how to "force" that issue if it comes to that. Rope dropping I can do.
2 x 4 coming your way, so please put on your helmet.
Who "Should" leave the house is no longer relevant b/c none of this "Should" be happening.
As for you dropping the rope, I just don't know if you can do that b/c so far you have not.
How to get to separation where I stay in the house is a mystery to me beyond the concept of saying I think that that would be appropriate and best given the circumstances, and then going completely dark.
These ^^ are great justifications to keep doing what you have been doing - which is not working. Which is you Staying stuck and spinning.
I get what everyone is saying here. But what if, just what if, she is actually maintaining "no contact" right now... which is a pretty significant possibility (though obviously damaged by the fact that she is not going out of her way to be transparent and contrite). But... very very possible, perhaps even the most likely possibility, that she HAS broken contact BUT at the same time has no interest in working on the MR. In that case, couldn't I, as Sandi2 seems to intimate, "shoot myself in the foot" by continuing to hammer her about "No contact"? I get that if she is not interested I need to detach/step-back like I did a couple of weeks back (with results, too), and given everything I know that certainly looks like my best move for both me and for any potential future MR, but Im going to come across looking pretty insecure/etc. if I keep harping on "no contact" if she is already "no contacting."
Just sayin'
I don't understand why you aren't "getting" what we are saying. Do me a favor and quote the post where anyone suggested you hammer her about NC.
I get what everyone is saying here. But what if, just what if, she is actually maintaining "no contact" right now... which is a pretty significant possibility (though obviously damaged by the fact that she is not going out of her way to be transparent and contrite). But... very very possible, perhaps even the most likely possibility, that she HAS broken contact BUT at the same time has no interest in working on the MR. In that case, couldn't I, as Sandi2 seems to intimate, "shoot myself in the foot" by continuing to hammer her about "No contact"? I get that if she is not interested I need to detach/step-back like I did a couple of weeks back (with results, too), and given everything I know that certainly looks like my best move for both me and for any potential future MR, but Im going to come across looking pretty insecure/etc. if I keep harping on "no contact" if she is already "no contacting."
What I and I and I believe others is, the no contact doesn't really matter much right now. You shouldn't harp on it at all. If she isn't recommitted to the marriage, it really doesn't matter if she is contacting or not at this point. She could have zero contact with him, but if she hasn't committed to piecing, what difference does it make at this point? I see her contact not making a difference either way where you guys are at right now. So there are no "what if's?"
Right now it seems like she is getting a whole lot of pressure to get her to be into saving this M, but right now, as she expressed to you and in MC verbally and through action, it is not her best interest at this time.
So your best move is to forget all about who or what or how she is doing, and refocus your attention on YOU.
It is tough. Lord do I know it. But when someone doesn't want in, do you want them to feel forced or pressured?In the meantime, back waaaaaaaaaay off, do your thing, be the person you want to be.
Just sayin'
So you are suggesting I just "go dark"... no explanation?
I wish I can edit, I messed up the quote, by my response is in there.....
Revisionist bomb she dropped-- apparently we only had sex five times in 21 years... and she was confident in and sad about that number. (For the record, while woefully insufficient, it was WAY more than that, though I didn't argue point at time because I was so dumbfounded and because she was in middle of pouring herself out.)
I would think her statement must have bruised your male ego, going by your response. The number itself merely represents a sexually starved marriage. How have you coped with so little intimacy? Do you have a history of looking at porn?
During the past 21 years, would your W try to initiate sex? If so, did you ever turn her down? Would she reject you when you initiated?
Also, we talked about the future and whether or not we would want to split "as a team"
What does it mean to split as a team? Is the MC presenting a scenario of both agreeing to split, in order to be happy?
I reiterated that I had no intention of going around trashing her or outing her to anyone, though I did say I was not certain I would be able to lie to kids if one of them asked me point blank, BUT... I did ask her to consider, if "happiness" and "wanting the other to be happy" was so important, how happy she thought it would make me to internalize and carry around the betrayal that OM had committed against me, taking my wife, and then being introduced around to friends and family as this nice, new, clean relationship and as a "good guy" when the truth was so much different, and potentially, having a relationship with my sons, and what kind of example that would set for them if they found out. She was very quiet in response to that.
In your initial thread, I remember discussing what to tell your sons if there was a split. I think I know exactly how your WW feels. She doesn't want her sons knowing the dirty little secrets behind their parents breakup. Neither did I want my grown children to know, and I was fantasizing of how I would introduce OM to my family and how they would accept him. I did not want my children to see me as tarnished. However, it's a lie.
If your sons are not told the truth (especially since they are at this age) they will live their lives under that lie.......not to mention what it does to you! The children and the spouses' parents should know there was OM, and it was not a case of both spouses wanting to just give up and call it quits. Something that was said to me when I came on the board was how the more honorable thing would have been to D my H and then go after some other man. But you see.........that's not normally how waywards think & operate. Even if you agree to give her a D, she'll want to protect her image by covering up the dirty little secrets. Not only does she not want to look like the bad guy to her sons, she doesn't want them knowing the truth. I even threatened my H if he ever told my children, I'd hate him till the day I died! (Apparently, I thought he would do anything to keep me from hating him
).
My suggestion is do what YOU believe is right and honorable to your sons, your parents, and yousel........based on your own standard of values. Don't be a part of the deception she wants to protray. You can be honest with your family, without all the gory details. I would try to answer any questions your sons may have, and not tell them to ask their mother. The reason being is b/c they need to know they have their dad's honesty. They can trust their dad to be real with them. As young men, and as sons, they need to know they can rely on him to tell the truth. This is important for their relationship with you! It's important to them, b/c they may feel betrayed.......and they think you've lied to cover up the truth, it could have strong, negative affects on them. How awful it must be for a child, of any age, to discover one of his parents has lied. You are showing them how to be an honorable man, husband, and father. Show them how a man deals with this type of situation.
You said you had no intentions of
trashing her. I think that's the best she could realistically expect. As for splitting up as a "team", (if I am following your MC), I think your WW would take full advantage of the terminology. Is that the same as a friendly divorce?
Frankly, I am disappointed in the MC, b/c I think she gave you false hope that she would be able to pull the M out of this crisis. She made claims to things she has not delivered. Perhaps I am being too hard on her, but it seems as if she took this last session in a different direction........and I think it was not what your W needed to hear. The WW wants nothing more than to have a buddy-buddy relationship with her ex-H while she's free to do whatever she's big enough to try. IMHO, that is what the MC endorsed in your WW's mindset. You can have a friendly split, remain the best of pals, and go on your separate ways........and everybody lives happily ever after. That is not the message the WW needs endorsed by the professional counselor.
The MC told you that she wanted you both to focus on having positive moments together. Then she tells you in a private conversation (in so many words) that you are right to have boundaries or require certain accountability from your WW........and then the next session she is talking about having a team spirited breakup? Have I fully misunderstood? IMHO, I think your WW will see this as the MC finally "understanding" and "supporting" her side in this situation, and basically agreeing the MR is over. I may be wrong, but it seems the MC tells you one thing in IC, but does she really follow through in the joint sessions? Anyway......I can't see much good has come from the MC sessions. But that's just me.
And let me reiterate that I am NOT afraid of separation... BUT... I strongly believe that if it comes to that that I am not the one who should leave the house AND I am still not sure how to "force" that issue if it comes to that. Rope dropping I can do. How to get to separation where I stay in the house is a mystery to me beyond the concept of saying I think that that would be appropriate and best given the circumstances, and then going completely dark.
Does she have full time employment? I can't remember. Have you checked to see the legal ramifications if you left the house? Would you have to support her, beyond child support, if she moved out.......or either way. Know where you stand legally, and then decide what you will do.
My argument about the in-house separation is that the couple is NOT separated at all. They still share the same home, bills, chores, usually don't change their family routines, have meals together, watch tv together, share same traditional events, and other family activities. The H feels pressured to recognize/celebrate her birthday, their anniversary, Valentine's Day, Christmas........you name it, b/c he has no guidelines while living
with her in the same house. I've even read where some couples continue to sleep together, but say they are in-house separation.
I mean, where is the line drawn?
Why give it a classification if nothing changes for her? That's the heart of the matter........the dynamics have to change, before she changes. When the dynamics do not change, and they classify their M status as "in-house separation", in a very short span of time (if any at all).......nobody can tell a separation ever existed. But oh brother, is it ever handy for the WW! Don't think for a second she won't take every advantage of that setup. And if the H should
dare complain about her.......she'll start sreaming about how they are S and she is free to do whatever she wants. It is
total cake eating for the WW, b/c she gets the best of both worlds. There was one case where the WW had the OM coming over to the house, while the H was there. But hey, they were "separated", and he thought there was nothing he could do about it. Instead of the in-house separation empowering the H, it crushes him. It prolongs the state of limbo, b/c in most cases, the H is trying to improve himself, and get the M back on track........but yet, he can't help but watch his WW as she flaunts her acts of rebellion and disrespect for her H and the M.
Yes, I believe there are a few strong men who could do it correctly, and eventually maybe even get her respect (if he stopped putting up with her cr@p). I just haven't seen successful in-house separations with positive results (perhaps my memory fails me).........where they actually go from the in-house status to agreeing to reconcile and work together to achieve a satisfying MR. IMHO, a change in the relationship dynamics is required from the man, before his WW will decide she wants to change their status. It's changing the dynamics within the relationship, that changes the limbo status, whether they are classified as S, or not.
It just gets to me when I see H's talking about how much they suffer in an In-house S. Now understand, these are usually H's with NGS, who passively endure the WW's overt disrespect and rebellion, while expecting her to "wakeup" and realize it's him she really loves.
I have never seen it happen without something in their relationship dynamics changing. ( I have seen the imitation form, but it was really just her Plan B falling into place, and he was okay with settling as her backup). Maybe that's why it bugs me for people to see DBing as some passive, weak, nonactive way of saving their M. It bothers me when I read an update on the latest episode of a WW's cruel behavior........and the H asks, "Should I do something, or just go back to DB"? Ugh!!
So........do what works, Jim. That's the heart and soul of DB. Do what works!
Thanks, Sandi.
So, a couple of quick things: first, I am eternally curious about your own situation.You talk about separation bing important and in house separation being doomed to failure, yet you yourself never left nor did your husband. How do you reconcile that?
Also, yes you do significantly misconstrue the NC is stance and approach here. A lot of that is on me for not very carefully stating how the session went. All of the teams split stuff came from my own w. BMC is actually encouraging us not to talk about the end of the relationship at all, right now, but instead to focus on what the relationship would look like if we were to reconcile. She thinks we are to negatively focused intend to constantly drift backwards into what we are going to do if and when we split. She is also a fan of disclosure of the A to the kids, even if we reconcile. The MC would very much like for us to get started on a program called Torn asunder which is meant to help couples recover from infidelity as well as from the hurts that led up to it in the marriage. Unfortunately, after counseling my wife individually, and after this past session, she still feels that on some level my wife is not sufficiently committed to the process. Either she is still hanging on to the affair in some regard, not having given any kind of hard and verifiable assurances of breaking contact and ending it, or else she has too many reservations about us and is not all in enough to make the process worthwhile. Or possibly both. So I have to also thinks I would be completely Justified in demanding a more concrete commitment to ending the affair and to showing me she is trustworthy. She says that my wife is carrying around a lot of guilt, and that she is very conflicted right now. Has fear that she will be trapped in a Loveless marriage, but also has fear that she will leave me and then it will end up being a mistake. The end of the day though, she is adamant that there is no point in continuing with the counseling unless the affair is completely over, there is no contact, and, on some level, my wife is committed do participating in the counseling.
On the neglect angle, a lot of that is in my earlier threads, but to save you the trouble I will give you a brief recap: there were significant health issues affecting me, which actually almost killed me at one point, which limited my physical ability to do just about anything, including sex and also damaged my glandular system resulting in very low male hormone production. He also had to chronically ill children which took a lot of our time and effort and energy and we fell into the Trap of caring for them instead of caring for us. We also suffered a significant financial crisis right about the time I started getting sick, which shattered my confidence and affected my engagement in the marriage. I effectively with withdrew because of that and the illness. And I didn't have the steady hormone boost to make me want my wife physically. We also started out a bit in the hole in terms of intimacy due to an ill advised commitment commitment to Natural Family Planning which damage the spontaneity in our early marriage and limited our intimacy. My health problems eventually started to resolve about five years ago, and currently I am as healthy as I have been at any time since I was about 22. But by the time that started to turn around, the damage had already been done.
The above should read that "SHE (MC) believes I would be completely Justified in demanding assurances..."
Sandi, sorry, fractured thinking here and typing on phone all day so I miss stuff. One more thing:
I thought you had said previously that if your husband had threatened to "out" you that you would have divorced him. Am I mis-remembering that?
Also, assuming, as many indicated previously, that I should not threaten to hold the kids reactions "over my W's head" as leverage. Rather, just refuse to be part of the deception if she brings it up. Yes? Which is kind of how i am inclined to proceed and is what the tenor of my comments in the MC session was.
Quick update-- she came home this evening, after extending her weekend to include a late "lunch" with bff as they were both driving home. Details on that are a little sketchy and unbelievable, but... whatever. I guess I sounded irritated when she called to tell me about that. I made it a point to be "out" when she got home-- went down to the boathouse and rented a kayak to have a quick paddle and let off some steam. Was hoping she'd bring the weekend or the "lunch" up cause I've finally just "had it." But, sadly, she got "tired" early and is sleeping on sofa. No word about her weekend or anything. She's also way too cheery. Thinking she pretty much must've seen OM over weekend. Oh well. she can sleep on the couch all she frikking wants.
The earlier post should read that "SHE (MC) believes I would be completely Justified in demanding assurances..."
But your w wants out. She is not committed and does not or cannot give you assurances.
Regardless of OM and no contact, etc. she wants out.
I am not big on exposing affairs (but would not lie to cover it either).
Rather than arguing the point, note that your wife feels justified in wanting out and in having the A. She thinks you only had sex 5 times in 21 years and even if it was 5 times a year every year, that's a SSM. The exact numbers do not really matter much.
In her mind, rejection of her has been going on most of the m. That may be why she wants to see you feel the rejection hurt she felt.
I'm not defending it. I'm saying that whatever her reasons for feeling done, you need to anticipate she will share them if the A is outed.
So if you expose it, my guess is that she'll explain her justifications and that's not going to be easy for you.
Hoosjim, bottom line is you are trying to make choices about things not really in play.
Seems the fundamental problem is that your wife is not all in the m.
I also don't think an in house sep will work for you. Sandi's situation (in that regard) is probably very unusual.
IF there is a chance to salvage your m - it is by letting go of it.
If it turns out not to be salvageable, you'll be farther down the road than you would be otherwise.
I dont know, peeps. I don't know if I can do that... meaning let her go to the point of us separating out of house. Think that that pretty much means she ends up in arms of the OM and... I don't know that I can handle that. On a number of levels. I just can't. I just really, really might not be able to do that. I may just need to try to work and hope for the miracle.
Sorry.
I know that it is tough, but you have to detach and drop the rope for your own sanity, once you do, the way you feel about her and OM will change.. You will find the happiness you are seeking, but you will find it in yourself. Sounds cliche, but when I moved away from WW I almost immediately stopped being concerned about her every action, but I still was in mourning of the loss of my M and was angry with WW, 4 months later I started realizing I was getting much happier, now 8 months later I sometimes, but rarely, feel sad, and couldn't care less about what my WW is doing. With all that time and space from her, I realize that it wasn't until now that it would be possible for me to effectively work on MR if I was to choose to do so, because I have forgiven her. Right now She's not someone I want a MR with, so for today I wouldn't consider getting back, but if she decided to make some serious changes in herself, who knows what would happen in the future... But I'm fine with it never happening.
As for Sandi2 sitch, she was the WW that sought help, guidance, etc., even when she didn't have any feelings for her H, well no good feelings anyway. That is not typical of WW, most are not interested in following their moral compass, Sandi2 didn't fix herself for her H, she did it because she wanted to be a good, moral person for herself, extremely rare.
Everyone has been telling you exactly what I have been telling you and in a great way.
Right now she wants out, you are trying so hard to keep her in.
Something I learned from my divorce and his affair that I took further into my reationships post D.
When I date, I am not jealous, and my least of my fears is my partner cheating on me. No one understands this. The reality is, if someone wants to do it, I am not going to pull out all the stops to try to stop it, to ensure it won't happen. If that person wants to be with me they will not choose someone else. If they choose someone else, well, why am I going to force them to stay? I want no one in my life who doesn't want to be here on their own will. Staying in the house just to ensure the affair doesn't go further is not getting her to love you or choose you. You want this woman to not chose the OM. You want her to choose you because you are worthy. Because she genuinely wants to make it work with her husband.
I believe your only chance is truly dropping the rope. Letting her do what she feels she needs to do. Maybe one day she will choose you. Then you decide if you choose her.
I dont know, peeps. I don't know if I can do that... meaning let her go to the point of us separating out of house.
Okay to be clear, are you saying you think by you both remaining in the house, you are increasing the chances she will give up on the A and that she will also, choose you? What evidence is there that this could happen? Isn't the evidence suggesting the opposite?
I notice that remaining where you are literally & figuratively, is the only path you know, So it is probably the least terrifying...even while you know deep down it's the path leading her away for good...either leaving the house
OR carrying on the A in a very thinly veiled "oh so discreet" way...while you live there too.
Think that that pretty much means she ends up in arms of the OM and... I don't know that I can handle that. On a number of levels. I just can't. I just really, really might not be able to do that.
When you say you "don't think you could handle that", what do you mean?
Have you discussed this fear with your IC? Because I can't tell if you mean you'd take your own life or someone else's or have a break down or that the m would be over, or what.
This^^ greatly concerns me.
Also, you are not taking into account that YOUR side of the equation could include you being happy without her.
That's^^ kind of a big oversight, don't you think?
I may just need to
try to work and hope for the miracle.
Sorry.
I don't know what "try to work" means. Keep doing words/no actions?
Anyhow, we all can hope for miracles. Nothing wrong with that - as long as our hope is not really an excuse to stand still and say we are "standing for our m",
when in reality we are paralyzed by our fears of the unknown & feelings of regret.
You have a sh1t sandwich, I know. Most of us here do.
But you don't have to eat it all. You could put it down and make a sandwich you have not tried before - but which you will almost certainly enjoy more.
Jim:
My H's affair with OW1 lived for 3.5 years in the shadows. After he moved out and they could see each other whenever they wanted, it died in less than 3 months. Now he is on OW2, but he is a really sick puppy and the affair was definitely only a symptom of his greater problems.
I don't know if there is data supporting this, but I have read that EAs and fantasy affairs are much more dangerous than PAs. I think you believe that you are keeping her closer by keeping her there. But until she sees OM and that relationship for what it truly is, instead of what she imagines it to be, I don't think you have a shot. I'm just trying to say don't be afraid if she does move out. It will likely be for the best.
I'll tell you this.... things improved for me 100% once she moved out. Let me really let go and live my life without her on my mind constantly. Similar to ownit's story, the A died out. It let her see exactly what life was like without me. Sure I didn't see her for 8 months but this whole process takes an incredible amount of time. I think in house separation is way worse mentally on the BS compared to living separately.
agreed
I hear that some in house sep work, but I'm not sure how. I sure did not have that experience at all.
And most of the successful reconciliations I personally know of, all had physical separations involved. So I don't know why some folks think in house increases the chances of a restored m. It can work out, I"m sure. But does it increase the chance of a recon? I think not.
For one thing, I think it's much harder to show changes b/c on a day to day basis they are so incremental they are hard to notice.
I mean yes you can pretend to go out or dress nicely, but the WAS who lives there will see you come home, alone...OR they will be gone out all night with you at home and
that is all they know...
Not to mention that it's harder for the LBSer to GAL (for real, I mean) or to detach with the WAS sort of living there.
And the chances of fights and backslides are so much higher when living under the same roof. I couldn't do it.
agreed
And most of the successful reconciliations I personally know of, all had physical separations involved. So I don't know why some folks think in house increases the chances of a restored m. It can work out, I"m sure. But does it increase the chance of a recon? I think not.
It is simple really... when the WS moves out, it is just another sign that things are progressing. We take this as a negative, as things are really over. As long as they are in the same house, there is a chance they change their mind right? The living separately is best mentality, is counter intuitive, but it is not really if you really really think about it. It is really difficult to grasp in the early days, almost impossible. Your point about the changes is spot on. Pretty much impossible to notice change on a day to day to basis (like physical changes are when you see someone everyday).
It is similar to how we think of MC I think. When things first happen, many peoples first thought is let's go to MC. It was mine, but not for long. MC is the death null if you go when one person is already out, it is pointless. It only helps if both people want it 100%. Something that is very difficult to grasp early.
So Hoos, my point is, that a physical separation isn't all bad. I know it seems like it is, but its not. Without it, my marriage was going to be 100% toast, I am convinced of that. Now, at least, I get to make a choice on our future.
I hope this won't sound arrogant, but did you read my very last post of your previous thread? The references and responses you made were to older posts, (even the one that immediately followed my last one on page 11. So, I got the feeling our posts may have passed each other. Please check, since I spent the better part of my Saturday writing to you.....I just wanted to make sure you read it.
.
So, a couple of quick things: first, I am eternally curious about your own situation.You talk about separation bing important and in house separation being doomed to failure, yet you yourself never left nor did your husband. How do you reconcile that?
You've asked about my stitch in the past, and I wrote a pretty lengthy respond, but I think something on your stitch had happened that had your attention, and maybe you missed it. I don't mind trying to answer any of your questions, but I just want you to read what I write.
To answer the question above, first let me ask in what content did I say S was important? Do you mean like being important to reconciling the M? No, if I said anything along those lines, it must have been to some individual's particular stitch. I don't think I said that as blanket statement regarding reconciliation. Here's the thing, Jim, don't confuse your boundary enforcement with thinking Sandi says S is important for all reconciliations. I think physical separation helps in many cases, but couples can certainly reconcile without ever separating.
A boundary is not a boundary at all, unless it has effective consequences.
You decide what the boundary is......and
you decide how to enforce it. Whatever you decided is the consequences for your boundary being dishonored......then I believe it is important to stick by it. If you see separation being the consequences of your boundary being disrespected, then stand behind it. That's what I say. There are other consequences, but if you told your WW you would separate if she did not end the A, then to go back on your word, would seriously jeopardize the future of the MR.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, or maybe you have misunderstood me (it's happened before). Occassionally, I see other posters take something I have said, put it in their own words (which is fine), but it comes out sounding as if I meant something else. It concerns me about newcomers misunderstanding, b/c there are people reading these posts that never join the board (in case you wonder why I go to lengths explaining myself).
Let me go on record as saying that separation is NOT always necessary in order to reconcile the MR! Are there
some situations that would be better for the couple to physically separate for a while? Absolutely! I even think it would be more effective in cases that have a wayward spouse, rather some other things the LBS tries. As with most situations in life, the success is usually determined by how it is carried out.
My H and I did not S, that's correct. We did reconcile, that's correct, too. Are you asking why or what I base my views on about in-house vs physical S? Well, I don't recall ever mentioning the number of posts by my name, b/c that is not a point of conceit, nor does it make a statement about one's wisdom. I do admit, after reading your question, and thought how to respond.........I looked. So, considering I read more than I post, and that I have been here almost every single day for the past decade, studying similar situations to your stitch,.........you might say
that is the bases for my views on in-house vs physical S. My views come from reading a decade of the painful experiences of others. If I observed a successful method, approach, solution, etc., I share it. If I see a board member making the same unsuccessful decision/move as I've seen in the past......I share my views of what I've observed.
BMC is actually encouraging us not to talk about the end of the relationship at all, right now, but instead to focus on what the relationship would look like if we were to reconcile. She thinks we are to negatively focused intend to constantly drift backwards into what we are going to do if and when we split. She is also a fan of disclosure of the A to the kids, even if we reconcile. The MC would very much like for us to get started on a program called Torn asunder which is meant to help couples recover from infidelity as well as from the hurts that led up to it in the marriage.
Well, at least I feel better about the MC.
She says that my wife is carrying around a lot of guilt,
About ?????
The end of the day though, she is adamant that there is no point in continuing with the counseling unless the affair is completely over, there is no contact, and, on some level, my wife is committed do participating in the counseling.
"She" being the MC?
Sandi, thanks, I did read your very comprehensive post (as I do all of your posts) and I really appreciated the thought you put into it. The effort and care and empathy that everyone here puts into their posts here never ceases to amaze and humble me. It's one of the things I am thankful for.
W and I talked extensively today. Honestly, I think she is maintaining NC. I put some surveillance back up to be sure but... I think she is. It's just her personality to not be excessively "mea culpa" about it, and it ALWAYS has been that way for her, even before she became a WW... VERY hard for to admit fault explicitly. She HAS been doing so here, just in a somewhat oblique and roundabout fashion. I pushed her pretty hard just before she got back when she wanted to have lunch with bff, and then again yesterday... and I think it was a mistake. Because she was already NC-ing, and I kind of believe her on this.
Having said all that, she is still NOT "all in" on the marriage or even on "working on" the marriage. And, for my part, I have told her that "ending the A is not enough for me, either... we have other issues." Alot of issues. We most definitely had a SSM, and there was a lot of pain and rejection arising out of that, especially since my W is a "sexual being". Amazing that she never went outside of the marriage before she did, and equally amazing that she did not sleep with OM (and yes, I am certain of this) although they did talk about it. At any rate, even assuming the A is over for now, not sure where "we go now." We may very well need to spend some time apart. She still does not have those romantic feelings for me, even as we still do connect very well intellectually and socially. We drove around for a bit this afternoon talking about the A and her beach trip and her commitment to not seeing OM, etc... ended up at restaurant where we had a bit and a couple of cocktails. Was nice. Really nice. Are we piecing? No. But I feel pretty good that Om, for now at least, may actually be out of the picture. I even feel a little better about bff... (hard to explain without writing a book, but I do.)
I thought you had said previously that if your husband had threatened to "out" you that you would have divorced him. Am I mis-remembering that?
Sorry, I was trying to end my previous post, and I must have missed this question. No, my H never
threatened to out me. I threatened
him if her ever told my children, I would hate him till day the day I died. (I was grabbing for any control I could get). He did tell me that if I left, there would be no coming back......and we would not be buddies. That was not a threat, b/c he did not say it in anger, and I knew he meant every word.
The previous night was when he had confronted me for the second (and last) time. He did out me to my mother, without giving her the dirty details. When the sh't hit the fan, I had left to go to her house, and before I got there.....he had called her to let know I was coming, and told her about OM. She was so shocked she could not say anything! I was shocked at him, b/c I actually never thought he would have told her. However, I would have done the same thing.....had it been reversed.
Being the firstborn child, I was the pleaser in my family and wanted my parents to be proud of the D they raised. I never caused them problems growing up, and they had expressed many times that they
were proud of me. They were not referring to accomplishments, necessarily, but to my character. Like my parents, I tried to live what I preached, so to speak. They were honorable people, and my H was an honorable man. And then I went and had an EA! Yes, I could write pages & pages of how life had been hard for my H and me, and how neglected by him I felt. But I learned from the LBS's on the board, the A was nobody's fault but my own. I could break down right now and cry a river of tears, it hurts so much to think what my betrayal cost, and how I treated my H.
As it turned out, my H did not have to say anything to our children, b/c they were finding out for themselves. One time, when I was having one of my special times on the computer with the OM, I forgot to turn off the monitor. My adult D (who had come by the house) had walked into the room to use the computer......and saw the monitor where OM and I had been messenging, so she started checking the history. However, she did not reveal what she knew right away. You see, I had planned to gently let my family know I was thinking about leaving my H, and then try to ease the OM in, so they would accept him......all the while, making my H out to be the bad guy. (Crazy, twisted, WW mindset). When my D told me she knew about OM......... that's when I knew I had hung myself.
Btw,
one of the cracks in my knight's (OM) amor, was when my D was on our computer he thought it was
me. He started messaging. She told him it wasn't me and that she was Sandi's D. The day she busted me, she told me about the incident. So, I asked him about it, (yes, I was testing him), and he lied. He said he had more sense than to do something like that and didn't know why my D would say such a thing. However, a few other cracks were beginning to show, and everything was about to fall. OM didn't seem bothered that my D had discovered and actually read a ton of our messages. I won't go into the various things I began seeing in OM (with the guidance from one of my DB mentors).
Some of the time frames about those events, get a little fuzzy....(and as time marches on, it gets even fuzzier). The mental/emotional state I was in at that time may be why I can't remember the dates or span of time better. There were also things going on with my health and the prescriptions. Don't know the extent it played in remembering time details. It did not all happen in the same day, but if felt like these things started falling like a house of cards. The timing and how everything fell was
incredible, and I had nobody to blame but myself.
Although my family loved me, showed amazing grace, and we got through it..........when my mom and my D passed away, it brought a deep sorrow in my heart, knowing I had deeply disappointed the two women who meant the most to me. (In fact, I often feel more sadness now, than when I discovered they knew what I had done). "Disappointment" doesn't seem a strong enough word. For me, I had not only betrayed my H........I had lost that which had been so precious that I'm not able to describe adequately. I had been a role model, someone people respected........especially my family b/c they knew of the struggles, etc. My EA was much more than just
making a mistake.......as some describe an A. For a person who was very straight-laced in her life, trying to be a positive example, and not wanting to be a stumbling block to any person (morally or spiritually) or ever have her character questioned.........to show a side of herself she never thought was possible, b/c of her high standards, and then seeing the shattering affects it has on those who would have staked their life on her character...........is like looking into your own soul and not recognizing the eyes looking back. How dare she hurt such a good, loving family! How dare she take away their respect and trust.........and in its place leave doubt that she was ever the person they believed her to be. Had they be deceived all previous years? One of things she learned growing up was having a good reputation meant everything. She had taken it to heart and had lived it, until she had slid off into a new world the Internet offered. (Not blaming the Internet, b/c it could have been somebody somewhere else, but the Internet provided the means to feed the fantasy and to be more daring or brazen than perhaps in a more traditional sense).
I think it may have been Txhubby who wrote that his W would forever be tainted. Although my family never treated me as if that's how they saw me, maybe it's how I see myself. IDK, it's deep, and maybe it's just one of those days for me. I think I've healed and moved forward, then years later something like a death happens that brings the sorrow and regret flooding back again. If I should outlive my H, I'm sure the pain will come again....and it may be a lot worse, since he was the one I betrayed. .
Posters have occassionally asked me about my loss. What did I lose due to my A? I took something I valued, and I tainted it. Forgiveness is necessary in a MR, and in families. However, forgiveness does not undo the act of betrayal. The one that has been betrayed,
and the one who did the betraying......each has to find peace. There are consequences, and if I had had to feel all the devasting affects of an A in one day.....I don't know if I could have taken it. Maybe that's why the regret almost overwhelms me at times, still a decade later. Maybe it comes in layers, like the onion. Sorry, I"m rambling.
This has sounded mostly like a journal. Certainly for no sympathy, but to let you see Into
this part of a former WW that is so personal, and that otherwise, you may not see in your own stitch. I'm not saying the M won't reconcile, I'm just saying she may not share some of the lpainful regret that lingers in her heart ten years
from now.
Wanted to reiterate that I am pretty sure (can one ever be 100% sure) that W is fairly firmly in "NC" land, here. Is she as mopey as I would expect, currently? Well, no, but I think I might have been underestimating how long she has been in "No Contact". If you include the time from when she first started trying to NC and when she clearly WAS acting like a spoiled/desperate/hormonal lovesick teenager, its' been like 7 weeks or so. She very clearly had a couple of slip ups-- pretty significant ones with personal meet ups-- early in the process, and then her weepy, tearful phoncon with him about four weeks ago, and many sulky nights on our sofa or in guest room, so maybe she is already past the worst of the sulkiness, though I do not think she is anywhere near "over" it emotionally. (She still discusses her ideal man/relationship a little too often and still throws up my past neglect back at me as well which MC says is a warning sign she's "not ready" to work on MR) Nonetheless... she DOES appear to be at NC. Which leaves me at a bit of a quandary, if true, about how to treat HER. I know what I have to do for me, that much is clear, but... how much, if at all, do I "pursue" her? This is a woman starved for attention, neglected for years. While I need to continue with my own self improvements and GALs, seems like, unless we separate (and I even floated this idea out there yesterday-- you know, maybe we need some time apart-- which pretty much shocked her to hear me say) that I should not be completely ignoring her. Just... where to draw the line. She even said yesterday-- "maybe the best thing to do is not to second guess every interaction between us. Just do it and see how it feels (she was talking about both seeing each other socially as well as physical touch.) Idunno. I've only seen a "high" level of interest from her a couple of times since all of this started. Problem is, one involved me completely dropping rope/going dark for a period of 4-5 days, BUT the other involved me actually being more routinely forward, flirty, etc.
I don't want to lose this woman by making the same mistake I made (neglect) for the past 10 years.
Wow Sandi, thanks for sharing that. I am so, so sorry you and the ones you love had to feel such pain. That is actually one of the things that brings tears to my eyes so frequently with my own and my friends' (my wife's bff's(WW) husband) situations... so much pain. And why? For what? Just... so sad.
Thank you very very much for sharing, as I am sure that that cannot be easy.
Not to tread on your own story, but something you wrote there sparked a recollection in me... one of the things that makes me think my W may have come around a bit: Yesterday she was talking about being away and about spending a lot of time by herself, walking and just thinking. She said with all the stuff of the past few weeks she had realized she was being someone she didn't want to be (not exact words, but something like that)... that she didn't want to be "The Cheater" (which was surprising coming from her, as she has always had trouble acknowledging fault, even before her "WW" stage, and certainly almost never takes names to herself, particularly one with such negative connotations.) That doesn't, of course, mean she is "back" with me... we caused each other a lot of pain, and I particularly caused perhaps immeasurable and unfixable damage to our relationship with my neglect... making her feel unwanted and "dead inside" and that she cried herself to sleep she forgot how many times. This is the pain I have to live with... to know I caused that level of pain and desperation (NOT that I caused the A, mind you), but that I hurt someone that much who I care about so deeply. Don't know if that will be fixable, but I pray to God every day to show me if there is a path to doing so so I can take it.
Sandi
I'm very moved and sad and want to give you a hug.
I'd say more but don't want to hijack.
((( )))
Sandi
I'm very moved and sad and want to give you a hug.
^^^This, too. If I could do so without it being inappropriate. Maybe like side "buddy-hug"
Thanks for the hugs, 25 & Jim.
I know what I have to do for me, that much is clear, but... how much, if at all, do I "pursue" her? This is a woman starved for attention, neglected for years.
Romantically pursuing her this soon, may not be a good idea. You aren't even certain she's not making some type of contact, b/c you can't possibly know everything she does, especially when she's at BFF's. (I could shoot holes in your explanation surrounding the July 4th get away....but I won't right now). She has made no attempts to give a verbal recommitment, and frankly, I haven't seen much effort. She plays this cat & mouse game, instead of being upfront. To me, it looks as if she is throwing crumbs to keep you hooked.
But just for the heck of it, let's say she is legit. If so, then you can do things together, have lots of fun.......but don't push your luck b/c she may not be ready......especially when she's still reminding you how she isn't attracted! (Why do you think her feelings have changed?) Anyway, if she doesn't respond well to flirting, then step back. Many H's on the board don't understand why she wouldn't be ready......especially since he neglected her in the past. It is a transition WW's go through, and it takes a while for some of them to want the intimacy. Now there are some WW's who engage just for the physical, but they are not ready for the emotional intimacy. Maybe a few are reversed, IDK. I'm not sure about WH's, b/c men and women are wired differently (in more ways than just sexually). You refer to her as a sexual being, and I suppose you mean she has a high sex drive. Yet, look how many years she stayed with a man who was not filling that need. I'm just saying that what YOU think she would want, doesn't mean it's what SHE is ready to receive. That is the logic of a LBS, not the wayward. Many times the LBH sees having sex as sealing the deal with his WW. It's not. So, please don't rush the romantic moves. Be keenly aware of her responses. She may be ready right away, but chances are......she won't.
Oh, and I wanted to be sure to tell you that whenever a WW "slips" during the NC/withdrawal period, it places her right back to ground zero. She has to start all over again. So those weeks when she backslid, don't really count. It's like other addictions, when you backslide and get a fix.......then you have to start over again.
One of my problems was that I continued to fantasize about the "what if's". I ended the A, got through the NC, but I had a devil of a time trying to keep OM out of my head. I believe that was why it took me so long to get through the final stages of withdrawals. And until I realized I was keeping the A alive in my head........the healing could not begin. My feelings for my H would not return, and the resentment and disrespect would not leave........as long I allowed OM to be in my thoughts. Whenever I talk to someone about controlling their thought patterns, you better believe I can sympathize with the struggles.
I don't want to lose this woman by making the same mistake I made (neglect) for the past 10 years.
I know.......and I know that is the truth behind you would want to choose in-house separation rather than physical S. Everyone is not exactly the same. From what I have been able to determine, most WW's don't
bounce back. In other words, the girl you M and the woman that wanted intimacy with you all those years........may not show up......or at least, not like you expect. It takes time, b/c there's a lot of work for her.....if this is done right. Just b/c you are antsy to make up for the neglect, doesn't mean she's of the same mindset. She has to have time to get there.
I hope she is doing as well as you want to believe. IDK, something just doesn't ring quite right......and I can't help but feel it is you wanting to skip through this part and get on with it. That's why I'm concerned you will stop posting, b/c you feel the frustration over the MC not being more successful, and you are afraid to leave her. A common mistake I have often seen, is when the LBH takes back the WW (figuratively) without her doing the necessary work. In some cases, neither one do the work......and they just exsits in separate lives at the same residence.
Hoosjim, I'd like to recommend you read my sitch (click on my name, click view posts and go to the first page)...
My sitch played out a lot like yours (WW almost immediately said she wanted to work on M, but never DID anything to do so, but she stuck around, I kept trying, wanting to believe her, but her heart wasn't in it, resumed talking to OM).
You'll see how it played out for me and very good suggestions I got from others (including Sandi2)... I think it may help you to read through, it's a lot, but very similar to your sitch..
I just want to say, if I had to do it over again, I would of moved out immediately and waited at least 6 months before any contact... I truly believed that would have resulted in true reconciliation for me... Instead, I did what your doing and MR experienced a slow death.
(I could shoot holes in your explanation surrounding the July 4th get away....but I won't right now). She has made no attempts to give a verbal recommitment, and frankly, I haven't seen much effort. She plays this cat & mouse game, instead of being upfront. To me, it looks as if she is throwing crumbs to keep you hooked.
Sandi, maybe I am setting myself up for unproductive spinning here, but... I really feel I need to keep myself grounded and NOT get ahead of myself, and I think part of that is keeping a healthy skepticism of my wife's "apparent" change of heart WRT the OM/A. So, please, shoot away... I really want to know if there are things I should be considering and I most definitely do NOT want to let her back in too early. After reading Coconut's story, I see some disturbing similarities, particularly the W making some efforts or appearing to make some efforts to end the A and then getting angry when confronted by H that the steps taken were not enough. Somewhat similar to my W getting upset that i was upset with HER for wanting to go have lunch with bff after she had "been doing all the things she was supposed to be doing"... and I note here, as was the case with coconuts sitch, there has still been no volunteering of unrestricted access to her phone, which remains on fingerprint lockdown, even as she has let me handle it and look things up on it jointly in her presence. And such access has been suggested to her previously, once by me and once (or twice) by MC. OTOH, she has labeled herself a "cheater", says she "doesn't want to be that" and seemed genuinely shaken up by the concept I raised at counselling that I wouldn't want to be her friend and that I wouldn't want to lie to everyone to cover up her A with OM if she left me and ended up with him. She also asked ME about the "Torn Asunder" workbook/program that the MC had suggested would be a good exercise for us when we are ready and then went and got and started reading it. We haven't circled back with each other on that one but the early chapters are VERY informative and VERY on point about the addictiveness of affairs, the revisionist thinking that goes along with them, and the resentment/anger/rebellion that leads up to them. At any rate, I have reason to believe she just MAY be coming around. That, and she is so so so so so so reluctant to admit fault in ANYTHING or that she has done something wrong-- particularly something BIG-- and it has always been this way with her, that if she actually DID come to me, put her hand in mind, break down in tears and say "I was so, so wrong to do what I did and I am so, so sorry and these are all of things I am going to do to work through it and try to earn back your trust", then I would mortgage my house and everything in it (including my kids) to place a bet on her doing just that... so strong is her already natural aversion (even affair and WW dynamics aside) to doing something like that. So, i am not sure i EVER expect such an explicit mea culpa from her, even as that would be ideal.
I also understand... as does she, I believe, that she has "work to do." I had of course suggested during our last talk that "maybe we needed some time apart"... which suggestion seemed to shake her up a bit. She said she was thinking maybe she just needed like a weekend faith-based or the like getaway, but that she knew she had problems in her head. MC would LOVE to get her in for more IC, but her (W's) trust for the MC is not as high as mine right now, and I think she fears being labeled/persecute/judged/etc. for what she has done, even though that is not this MC's M.O.
I don't think you have to worry about me stopping posting-- I value the input here. My biggest issue is that I have two sort of competing paradigms I am wrestling with here, both of which, honestly, seem like they have merit. MC saying I need to pursue a bit, in measured fashion, while guaging my W's responses, and DB saying that I need to be more stand-offish. (Though, absent the affair dynamics, it seems upon reviewing the DR book and other materials that selective pursuit is countenanced there, as well.) What would be most helpful to know is a) is the affair TRULY over for now-- and very very hard for me to trust here as long as bff remains in picture AND b) is W truly interested in working through her own and then our issues, or is she just spoonfeeding me what she thinks i want to hear.
Best bet for me, obviously, is not to let MY life get too hung up on such things. Actually joined a basketball league with some other "old man" friends of mine... going to play tonight. Will probably completely undo my meticulous fitness routine with some sort of injury, lol...
Coconut-- just reading over your sitch, thanks for the suggestion. I have to say, you were a prolific poster in the early stages! Much better historian than I was. I do see similarities in yours and my situation. Here's a tip for our subsequent marriages, if there are ones-- DON'T marry a beautiful woman
(Like you, I significantly "out-kicked my coverage" with my wife-- not like I'm a troll or anything but, well... comparatively speaking she's out of my league. We got together during a period in my life when I was crazy confident, perhaps almost to the point of arrogance and certainly to the point of not worrying about whether she was "out of my league"-- trying to get back to that, but without the arrogance.
) Anyway, I DO see some similarities. Some differences, too, though. some subtle, some not so. Trying to decide which ones if any are important. I am unquestionably, I think, in even a worse position than you from the get-go due to the length of the "neglect" period-- prolly close to 10 years in my case. Your description of your sitch makes it look like there was at least still some warmth/intimacy/etc even up until the point of the A. In my case, Pretty sure my W's feelings for me are dead, cremated, and scattered to the four winds, at least in the romantic sense. If we are to reconcile into any kind of intimate relationship, it's really going to be like I am dating/wooing someone all over again... except harder because there are the overlays from a) the affair and b) her resentment/hurt/anger over the pain I caused her.
Anyway, I am working on me as hard as I can, reading as much as I can about this kind of thing (still working through your story) and praying constantly... the latter of which is my greatest source of comfort and hope. Think I said this before, but, while my situation may look kind of hopeless, "God does hopeless pretty well."
I'm divorced now, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think you need to drop that "out of my league" stuff. That vibe, and I guarantee you started putting it off at some point as your relationship matured, is a turn off for your wife. Think about it: on a basic level, if you outkicked your coverage, it must follow that she underkicked hers. Who wants to live with that as their reality, until death do you part? Not her. Not most people. Good thing it isn't true, right?
You say yourself that you got together during a period of your life when you were "crazy confident. Confidence is one of the only true aphrodisiacs, especially from the female-looking-for-a-mate perspective. There's a lot going on in your mind; lots of fear, uncertainty, anger, depression, etc.; trust me, I know. But make it your mission to quit thinking about anything other than getting that confidence back. How? Exactly how posters have been telling you: GAL, dropping the rope, focusing on you and kicking a$$ every day, all day. That confidence WILL come back. Your W may or may not. But she isn't coming back to being wooed by someone who accepts that she's out of his league, lacking in confidence, etc.
Good 2x4 JRuss, thanks.
You should know, though, that alot of that is tongue in cheek, self-deprecating humor, whatever. I have actually regained alot of if not most of my confidence. We took a psych battery as part of one of our MC sessions (which we may not be continuing for obvious reasons) and my "confidence" rated extremely high, like 90th percentile or something. Plus, I just feel it... I've been out more, meeting people, have noticed that people, including women, are interested in ME (which in itself can be an intoxicating and somewhat dangerous dynamic) and that alot of that absolutely has to do with self confidence, self assurance, and out-going-ness.
When I met my W, i was confident that there was no one out there who was "better" than me for her. Getting back to that point, now... and I damned fer suAnd, yes, how physically (and yes probably emotionally) sick must I have been to neglect a crazy, hot high-sex-drive wife for ten years? Pretty sick. Actually pretty much sure I was on my way out at one point. Thank the good Lord every day for seeing me through that. Now if I could just turn back the clock and 2x4 my former self in the head to engage and turn to my W rather than shutting her out...
re know it about me versus the OM she was (hopefully it IS "was") seeing. She's noticed, too, commented several times on my self confidence and self-assurance, but... she's a WW. I could be Superman right now and it prolly wouldn't make a diff. Just gotta rest assured Im doing the best I can to be the best me, that WW's feelings can change, and that ulitmately if she prefers "not me", well, then... her loss.
And, yes, how physically (and yes probably emotionally) sick must I have been to neglect a crazy, hot high-sex-drive wife for ten years? Pretty sick. Actually pretty much sure I was on my way out at one point. Thank the good Lord every day for seeing me through that. Now if I could just turn back the clock and 2x4 my former self in the head to engage and turn to my W rather than shutting her out...
Here's a tip for our subsequent marriages, if there are ones-- DON'T marry a beautiful woman
(Like you, I significantly "out-kicked my coverage" with my wife-- not like I'm a troll or anything but, well... comparatively speaking she's out of my league.
Was she when you met though? Look, if you have a trim waistline, wear nice clothes, get regular haircuts, keep your nails clean and trimmed, carry an air of confidence then you are in the 10th percentile of all men. Maybe even the 5th. It is EASY to be in the top league of men. Just look around you, it is shocking how many men are walking around with huge bellies, disheveled hair, pale complexions, scruffy beards, t-shirts with holes in them, flip flops, etc. A lot of men GO TO WORK like that these days. It's unreal. You don't have to have Brad Pitt's face to be at the top of the class.
I think it's funny you brought up the "out of my league" from my past, Sandi2 also mentioned that (what I used to say) in a comment she made to you. I didn't want to bring it up then, didn't want to hijack your thread, but I no longer feel that way, and didn't think that way before BD... She definitely has young genes, but there is so much more to a person than looks, I think I just dwelled on that because when you think of your woman with another man, I think her attractiveness is the first thing that enters our "man minds".
Sure she's pretty, but no one is out of my league as a whole person. Not saying that arrogantly, but I'm friendly, happy, appreciative of others, and most importantly, I'm content in my life. I don't know enough about her to compare where she stands on those things, but I know I'm a catch and I don't put her, or anyone else above me (anymore).
Very wise words, my friend.
Just look around you, it is shocking how many men are walking around with huge bellies, disheveled hair, pale complexions, scruffy beards, t-shirts with holes in them, flip flops, etc.
And THIS is the OM in my case!!! Except add in "almost no job, almost no money, likely a clinical alcoholic, and serial womanizer. And, oh, btw, not at all bright." AND SHE CHOOSES HIM! She could have pretty much ANY man in this town. Seriously. Shes good looking, smart, fun, loves sports, has a good professional life herself, etc etc. Except for being a cheater she's like the all-American girl. AND SHE CHOOSES THIS LOWLIFE. I have told my own bff (who is, strangely enough, the currently separated H to my wife's own bff-- we married best friends) that if I could nominate one guy for "Right Place at the Right Time Poster Child" and place all my money on the pick... it would be the OM in my case. Dude has literally NOTHING going for him but a good rap (and yes, he's fun, but in a drunken low-life sleezy kind of way) and that he happened to have a sucker for a friend (me) who told him most of his wife's vulnerabilities and then used that to find out the rest of them, opened a few doors for her like a "gentleman" and VOILA... in like Flynn.
Sorry. Rant over. I no longer feel any "threat" from this guy to my own sense of well-being, but the fact that I could have lost (and I suppose still might lose) my wife to this low life will forever remain a head-scratcher to me.
Yeah one of the great mysteries of life is why WAS's always seem to "affair down". There's a theory that the affair partner is offering some kind of emotional support they're not getting in the M, and maybe that's it. I suspect a lot of serial OM's prey on married women and know just the right things to say to them, coming off as Mister Sensitive, but it's just a game to them so as soon as the marriage is in ruins they're on to the next mark.
Could be worse... OM could be a convicted felon...
Could be worse... OM could be a convicted felon...
Idunno, at least with "convicted felon" you could maybe say there's like some perverse excitement factor going on. (Although, in my own case, OM's "spontenaeity" and "adventuresomeness"-- both of which are really easy to display when you basically have NO JOB-- were also draws for my W, apparently. He thought nothing of blowing money he didn't have to go buy a used Harley to impress her-- my wife loves motorcycles-- and takes off midday most days to go drinking at his favorite bars. Grrrrr.... Sorry, I really am mostly over the anger at the dude, though it still might go badly for him if we actually met up.)
Dangit, why did I have to put up surveillance and snoop again? So, come to find out, she downloaded the "Viber" app onto her phone while at the beach with bff, which is a VOIP and also "secret chat" app. Then, I find out from OMs facebook page that he was not only out of town this past week but AT THE BEACH-- I don't know which beach because the two pics he posted don't say, but there are only really two within easy driving distance of here and my W was at one of them. Finally, at some point during their first night there, my W was "separated" from bff as there are two calls and a text between them. Maybe nothing, maybe just a long trip to the bathroom but... Dangit. Now i have to wonder. She's also been real careful to not talk to bff in the car past couple of days because she apparently suspects or know I had a recorder in the car at one point. There have been a couple of calls to/from bff's phone and both have occurred while she is out of car and not being recorded. (FWIW i put the recorder back in yesterday after a couple of week hiatus just for a check up because I was a bit suspicious of what might have transpired at beach weekend with bff, even though i was inclined to trusst her based on words and behavior. Still, it's possible she had a meet up with Om at beach that first night, second night she and bff stayed in and then next morning she had her long soul searching she was telling me aboout where "the cheating spouse" was not something she wanted to be.) Idunno. Wish I did. We'll prolly be talking some more over next couple of days as she has been reading the "Torn asunder" workbook MC recommended to us. Part of that program is a formal "no contact whatsoever" contract (an agreement she and I technically already have) but also some sort of arrangement for phone transparency. My inclination is to work into the conversation that she still hasn't done anything to really open herself completely up in terms of transparency... how about she start by sharing her phone. I might even insist.
What is this surveillance your using?
Jim,
IMO it's pretty simple. You state your boundary one more time of full transparency or you separate.
A married woman using an App like that is using it for one reason.
I disagree, she knows your boundary, no reason to harp on it.
Restating a boundary over and over without enforcing it does not present a strong, respectable person.. In fact it does the opposite and lets the WW know they can ignore the boundaries and nothing will change.
My point was she will not give him full transparency so he has to follow through with separation.
She doesn't want to give you full transparency, she hasn't recommitted to making anything work, why the heck do you think she is going to hand over her phone to you?
She will keep crossing that imaginary boundary, why not? Nothing changes.
I actually never insisted on any specific sort of transparency, phone or otherwise. I told her: Wont live in a marriage of three/wont share her, and then given that she had burned me on her initial promise to "no contact" that I needed to see some sort of concrete, tangible effort or proof from her that would make me want to trust her-- IOW that the burden was on her to "show me." I did not specify what that would look like, though we had PREVIOUSLY, before my bomb drop that I knew everything about the A, discussed phone transparency about which she kind of deflected and was evasive: "Well, I deleted FB... and what's the point, I can always just create a new account or have an account on my work computer... etc." Our MC also indicated we should have some sort of transparency agreement but was non-specific, saying the couple had to decide what worked for them. More recently, W has been like "I'm doing all this stuff" (meaning checking in frequently, not going out with bff, at least locally), but I have not pushed or even asked for any type of particular transparency since I told her I knew all about the A. I honestly have been a little hesitant to push it since she HAS been making an effort, but that's prolly being wishy washy on my part.
Seems like I need to broach the subject againn
Dangit, why did I have to put up surveillance and snoop again? So, come to find out, she downloaded the "Viber" app onto her phone while at the beach with bff, which is a VOIP and also "secret chat" app. Then, I find out from OMs facebook page that he was not only out of town this past week but AT THE BEACH-- I don't know which beach because the two pics he posted don't say, but there are only really two within easy driving distance of here and my W was at one of them.
She's also been real careful to not talk to bff in the car past couple of days because she apparently suspects or know I had a recorder in the car at one point.
Sounds like she's gone pretty deep with her A, probably because she knew you were snooping. That's what happens- the more we snoop the deeper undercover they go with it. Based on what you've posted it seems pretty clear she's actively engaging in an A. Can't say whether EA or PA but does it really matter? Given that info, what do you think your course of action should be from here?
Jim,
I'll be a little more blunt because you seem to dance around everything.
Your wife is in an A with POS loser OM.
You have two options:
1. Keep spying on her and getting confirmation and then try to rationalize what your confirming is not true. This will keep you in a painful limbo for a very long time.
2. Act on your boundary and politely ask her to leave the house and see if she values marriage, family, and security.
One makes you look very weak and the other makes you look strong.
IMO you have a better chance to reconcile if you initiate separation.
Coconut, I am going to ask you to be a bit contemplative and introspective here and answer what might be a difficult question for you. I am also going to ask Sandi to chime in as well if she sees this, at the potential risk of board comity.
I have read over a good bit of your earlier threads, describing your sitch and your ultimate break-up with your W. I know you have said here on my thread that you truly believe that if you had separated completely for 6 months things might have gone differently with you and your W. As you said and as you noticed, I have seen some similarities between your sitch and mine, notably that W shows some early signs of cutting the cord with OM, but then suspicious (though not conclusive things) show up later. While you say you think a 6 month separation would have helped you, I am going to ask you (and Sandi) if you think that OTOH there might have been a "sweet spot" somewhere in there where your W actually WAS willing to work things out and cut off the A but you could not (and very arguably rightfully so, given the sitch) bring yourself to trust her and every little thing that came up became a trigger that sparked some sort of confrontation or served as a reminder of the lack of trust. It certainly seems that Sandi, Wonka, and others thought that this might have been the case-- that she was doing some very encouraging things and that at some point you maybe have to make a decision to take the leap and try to start rebuilding the trust and good feelings. I am saying this not at all to discredit you, because you have experience here and I value your input... rather, I am trying to make sure I do not miss some opportunity that might be out there with my own W by jumping to too many conclusions or going off the deep end or pushing her when she is already moving in my direction. And I am NOT saying that that (her moving in my direction) is necessarily the case either... but I am trying to discern that.
I note that Sandi and Wonka in particular seemed to think things were moving in a very positive direction and that you had a pretty good shot. Did you ultimately find out that it was ALL Bulls**t and that your W was fully engage in the A the whole time, or is it possible that the comabativeness between the two of you and the continued suspicion (and jealousy?) might have pushed her in the opposite direction or at least made her more hesitant about committing to returning to you? Again, I know, perhaps a hard question, but these are hard situations and the stakes are high. Want to make sure I am fully exploring all facets of this thing.
And, again, interested in Sandi's take on this as well.
Thanks, all, and again, Coconut, PLEASE don't take this as me "calling you out"... I am really just trying to learn, and i DO see some similarites between your and my sitch (although from reading I think our respective W's are very different people... and at different points in their lives and prolly in their respecive A'
s as well)
So, here's the deal.
W is really, truly "No Contacting". Can I be 100% certain? No, but, then again, nothing ever is. We talked last night. I had been going to talk to her anyway about transparency and proving trustworthiness, etc., and then there was a bit of a rough spot due to her staying out later than anticipated yesterday, so that got layered into it as well.
She had stayed after work with several co-workers, male and female, to have a "wine-down". I knew she might be going to be doing this, but assumed she would confirm if she WERE going to based on her saying "we have one of these coming up and Thursday but I don't know if I will be done with my work on time to do it" and it has bugged me in the past, particularly during the depths of the Affair, because she wouldn't tell me when she was coming back and would just show up really late with little explanation. Also, I didn't think she would be staying after, or at least for long, as she had indicated she would be dropping by my hangout after work. Last night, Thursday, is my afternoon/evening to leave work early and go to happy hour at an outdoor patio near our home where they have live music. She knows she has an open invite to stop by, and had told me she would do so yesterday. We had talked briefly by phone around 4:45 and she said she would call me "when she was leaving." Around 5:30, she texts me that they were "waiting for the doctors to finish" (she works in a medical office) but no indication as to WON that was so they could leave or so they could crack open the bottles of wine. Nothing for an hour from her, at which point I texted her "Music's great, what's your status, girl?". Fifteen minutes after my text, she responds (6:45): "Okay I will call on my way out" then me: "What's holdup", then her "Finishing glass of wine with _______, _____, and ___________, 7:30 goal" Then, at 7:20 "Still good, 7:45". I call her at 7:30 and she is talking with friends and says she is "almost done", and is clearly getting a little tipsy. I ask if she's okay to drive and she says "yeah, I think so". Then, at 8:05 text from her "are your friends still there? Leaving in 5." She calls me at same time but I don't hear ringer, no message left. At 8:15, music has ended where I am, my friends pay tab and leave and so do I. I am pretty annoyed by this time, so I head over to her office, partly because I am pretty sure she is not okay to drive, and partly because I'm ticked at her for blowing me off and partly because she didn't really let me know ahead of time what she would be doing and for how long. I call her just down block from her office, about 825 and ask "Whatcha doing" and she says "leaving Arlington, are you still at bar?" and I say "No, Im coming to give you a ride", to which she says, "okay, just let me say goodbye and I'll come down." (Obviously, she was not actualy "leaving"...) Nearly TEN minutes later, I get tired of waiting and go up to her office and knock. She is in there, of course, and comes out with another girl she works with. I give her a ride, we stop to eat and have a drink and talk a bit, and then more when we got home.
That whole episode sort of dovetailed into my ongoing concern with her that I had already intended to discuss that she doesn't really "get" a) how serious a deal her affair was b) how much it hurt me and c) how much the affair and then her subsequent breaking of her no contact promise damaged my trust in her and that I don't really feel like she is interested in doing what is necessary to restore that trust.
So I started with that, beginning with "Hey, when I came to pick you up, I was really happy for you to see that you were having a good time and enjoying yourself with your friends at work, and that you were able to be there and enjoy each others company, because I know how much they all like you there and I know how hard you guys work during the week..." (It is a very, very hectic office, and my W is a very "magnetic" person that everyone there just adores, and she has told me she worries about "being able to be herself" and hang out with friends or stay after work or such because she worries about second guessing herself because of having violated my trust in her). Continuing... "However, while I really appreciate what you have been doing with texting me where you are and so forth, I really feel like you still do not understand or respect the dynamic between you and me right now, and are not showing me the respect and consideration you should, or trying to do what needs to be done to restore trust." (and none of these are exact words, I am a really crappy "Dictaphone.") I explained to her that when she goes from "not sure she is going to stay" to "waiting for doctor" (with no explanation of what that portends) to "having wine, leaving when done" and then to "7" and then to "730" and then "8:00" in dribs and drabs and then "Im leaving now" (when she's not actually leaving) is not exactly the best way to restore trust, especially when I think she's going to be somewhere else (and particularly when that somewhere else is with me). If she's going to stay after like that, she needs to let me know when and where ahead of time.
She wasn't all that happy about that, saying she had "told me" and that she "texted me regularly" and that she felt like she was "doing a lot" and "what she was supposed be doing." And, like I have said in previous posts, she probably believes that. Detailed and heartfelt "Mea Culpas" have NEVER been her thing. Ever. She is also extremely stubborn. I have a BIT of mixed feelings about this particular episode-- like there was a communication gap or something and that maybe I "jumped on her" at a bad time, when she is trying to move towards openness-- BUT... I also DO feel like there was definitely a degree of being inconsiderate on her part, as well as some disrespect, intentional or not, and a lack of... something. Idunno. She was somewhat defensive about it, saying "You know, there's a part of me... the "bad, witchy woman" part... that wants to ask you "Okay, I am doing all of these things you want me to do [meaning no contact with OM, transparency, telling me her plans, texting me, etc.], what are YOU going to do for ME?"" And she then said she knows that that's not really the right attitude to have, but it IS how a part of how she feels. She also said that part of her does bristle when I say how much the A hurt me (for past 6 months) and hurt our trust when she has "all those years" of hurt built up when she felt like she was "dying inside" etc etc. (And I totally understand, listen to, and validate her feelings of hurt and having been neglected, and have taken ownership of that repeatedly, even as I have also told her that I don't for a second consider that as an excuse for the affair). And she has said she knows that that is not an excuse and that what she did was wrong.
We also talked about trust and transparency in the larger sense. I related last night to her wanting to go have lunch with bff after having been away for weekend at beach with bff (remember that bff has been at least complicit in and quite likely actively involved in facilitating it), and that it was the same sort of thing as last night where she does not seem to fully understand or appreciate the loss of trust and/or does not seem all that interested in respecting my feelings and doing the things necessary to regain my trust. (MC is on permanent hold right now, because I have told her I am not sure I see the point-- she has not seemed committed to trustworthiness, let alone to working on anything in the MR ) I told her that I know she is doing a bunch of things, and that I really appreciate those and that she is maintaining NC with OM, but that I hadn't seen anything that makes me think she is REALLY committed to that... Told her I didn't know "what had been said to OM, and when, and by whom, regarding her decision to NC", and that she had not done anything to really open herself up in terms of transparency with her phone. She said nothing had been said to OM, that she just stopped contacting him "cold turkey". Regarding her phone, she just unlocked it, handed it to me, and said "look." It was a completely surprise request by me, so she'd had no warning to delete or erase anything. There were no suspicious apps on it, no DMs in FB messenger, OM had been unfriended... She had NOT blocked OM on messenger, but there was no evidence of any communication for about a month (interestingly, there was a group chat DM he had sent in FB still there from a little over a month ago, which she said she did not even know about, which seems to mesh with her telling me that she doesn't even use FB messenger anymore). She blocked him on that app last night and gave me her phone password.
There was some other talk, too, mostly volunteered by her, that she still "doesn't know how it [relationship with OM] got to that point". She knows it was wrong and that she crossed the line, and she knows that she was hurting and angry and resentful, but she can't pinpoint at what time she "thought it was okay to do what I did or else got past the point of caring that it was wrong and that I just wanted to do what I wanted to do" or pinpoint what the exact action/time/incident was that put her "across the line." She also copped to still "thinking about him [OM]" and "missing him, and the way he made me laugh." Which hurts to hear, but at least she's being honest, I guess...
At any rate, she is being increasingly open about the A (not that I am all that interested in the grim details) and appears to be willing to share, be open and somewhat transparent, etc., although she is clearly still stubborn and defensive about it to a certain degree-- which, to her credit, she admits. To almost every indication, though, she is maintaining No Contact with OM.
Which puts me, exactly, where? She still has, at best, conflicted feelings about me. We laugh and talk and joke and connect on about every level, socially, intellectually, etc., except intimately. She no longer pulls back when I touch her, but neither has she warmed up to me that much, and still says she "doesn't feel that spark" with me that she wants to feel and that she feels like "we both deserve." She is a little more comfortable around me socially in a group than she had been (last night picking her up her work friend pulled my sleeve up to see my tattoo and she was like "Hey there, watch your hand on my man, there.") She is also clearly still down in the dumps sometimes, though having friends around and/or doing things (even with me) seems to cheer her up. I have told her that "maybe we need some time apart" (which seemed to jolt her a bit), and maybe we do. She wants to do some of this workbook program that our MC gave us which is about healing from an Affair-- but I am uncertain. Maybe we need to put that on hold too until we have both had some time to ourselves to reflect on all of this and figure out where/who we are.
As a final note, since OM has apparently not been explicitly told "do not contact me" (though W says he knows she and I are "working on things") I am feeling like he and I need to have a talk. Putting this at the top of my "to do" list: 1) Have "Stay the Hell away from my wife" talk with sleazy OM. 2) Try hard (but not too hard) not to kick his sorry a$$.
As a final note, since OM has apparently not been explicitly told "do not contact me" (though W says he knows she and I are "working on things") I am feeling like he and I need to have a talk. Putting this at the top of my "to do" list: 1) Have "Stay the Hell away from my wife" talk with sleazy OM. 2) Try hard (but not too hard) not to kick his sorry a$$.
hoosjim,
I think talking to the OM is a good thing to do. From what I've seen, not too many husbands do that. You don't want to do anything that will cause you to spend some time in jail, but I've got no issues with putting the fear in the OM.
Also for the record. Messenger has a secretary messenger section that automatically deletes messages for you after the other person reads it. That's what my W and OM started using after I was discovering messages in regular messenger. Great app for the cheater who forgets to delete their messages. So just be aware of that.
Our carrier logs all SMS messages, even deleted ones. She'd have to get a dedicated app like whatsapp or Viber or the like. I thought she had downloaded text she received, but the explanation could have been otherwise-- there are other possible explanations, and neither of those apps, nor any others, were on her phone last night. And she had NO advance warning that I was going to bring that (phone transparency) up.
Of course, if someone wants to cheat, they will always find a way. I can think up probably two dozen without even trying, most obviously that OM is still calling her on her work phone or that bff is serving as a go between where it would just look like W was talking with bff. (Bff hangs out at bar and sometimes with same crowd OM hangs with. Wouldn't be at all a big deal for her to dial up my W and say "here, OM wants to talk to you", although opportunities for this are even much less since these days, in the evenings, she is almost always with me or the boys.
You don't want to do anything that will cause you to spend some time in jail...
^^^ Ya think?
Actually, I have a cousin who's done two stints in the joint, and has been quite graphic about what its like, so I have NO desire to end up there myself.
Would love, love, LOVE, however for OM to take a poke at me so I could kick HIS a$$ AND have HIM thrown in the clink...
^^^ Ya think?
Well, I came very close to going to the pokey. When I saw the OM I was freaking livid and my brain shut-down. Luckily a nice cop intervened.
Coconut, I am going to ask you to be a bit contemplative and introspective here and answer what might be a difficult question for you. I am also going to ask Sandi to chime in as well if she sees this, at the potential risk of board comity. )
Not difficult for me to try and answer (I no longer am on a roller coaster ride of emotions regarding my sitch), but while I’m able to provide introspective on my own sitch when I learn or realize new things, it’s not so easy for me to apply the same detailed introspection to others, which is why most posts are usually short and to the point. But I’ll try my best to give the details I think you’re looking for.
I know you have said here on my thread that you truly believe that if you had separated completely for 6 months things might have gone differently with you and your W. As you said and as you noticed, I have seen some similarities between your sitch and mine, notably that W shows some early signs of cutting the cord with OM, but then suspicious (though not conclusive things) show up later. While you say you think a 6 month separation would have helped you, I am going to ask you (and Sandi) if you think that OTOH there might have been a "sweet spot" somewhere in there where your W actually WAS willing to work things out and cut off the A but you could not (and very arguably rightfully so, given the sitch) bring yourself to trust her and every little thing that came up became a trigger that sparked some sort of confrontation or served as a reminder of the lack of trust.
Ok, here’s the thing, contact with OM or not, she’s not recommitted to you or the MR, and neither of you have had the time, space, or put in the work to be able to not only recommit but also to form a truly healthy MR going forward. I wanted nothing more than to save my M, and I don’t think my W wanted to deal with any stress, guilt, or negative feelings from others regarding the A, so I believe she was willing to “try to save M” but wanted to just sweep everything under the rug and continue with the same M that got us there in the first place. Although I bought into it at first, because I wanted nothing more than to save my M, although she would say she wanted to try, she wouldn’t do anything to show that she was trying. So essentially I was trying, I was trying to build trust but she wouldn’t do anything to earn the trust, which just ended up with me questioning everything, which turned into more lies from her, then more anger from me. I say that if I could go back I would have just left for 6 months and then reached out because it would of allowed her to go on her journey and me on mine without more resentment building up, without more lies being told, without making it harder to be able to trust again in the future. By waiting 6 months, we both would have been able to decide what we wanted without hurting each other along the way. If she continued on her A path, then she wasn’t ready to try on our M and I would have saved myself a lot of stress along the way. On the other hand, if she stopped the A and went NC because she wanted to save her M, then I would have known she was committed to at least trying and would have been able to focus on piecing rather than verifying.
In a nutshell, her being half in caused more anger and resentment in me than her actual A, I unleashed my anger on her (saying mean things, not physical), which resulted in even more issues to work past if reconciliation was to ever happen (I was really mean). Also, I wasn’t ready at that time to try piecing because I “wanted to”, at that point I wanted to piece because “I needed to be with her”.
It certainly seems that Sandi, Wonka, and others thought that this might have been the case-- that she was doing some very encouraging things and that at some point you maybe have to make a decision to take the leap and try to start rebuilding the trust and good feelings. I am saying this not at all to discredit you, because you have experience here and I value your input...
In the scheme of things, my wife’s A was pretty minor. She had only met OM like 4 or 5 weeks before I found out, it was mostly texting back and forth and 2 or 3 times that they kissed. My wife didn’t flaunt anything in front of me, she wasn’t intentionally trying to be mean to me, or make it a point to show me how much she hated me.. She never said she didn’t want to be married to me, never said that she hated me, just that I had hurt her a lot in the past, left her emotionally empty and made a mistake and let OM fill that need. I’d have to go back and re-read, but I think that Sandi2 and Wonka both felt like I was trying to move things forward to fast and not giving her enough space or time to work things out in her head (I do remember Sandi2 being disappointed I initially backed off my NC boundary)… But as you obviously read, I was pretty hard headed and wasn’t able to give her space, they started giving advice on the path I was going, even though it was not necessarily the path they would have recommended.
rather, I am trying to make sure I do not miss some opportunity that might be out there with my own W by jumping to too many conclusions or going off the deep end or pushing her when she is already moving in my direction. And I am NOT saying that that (her moving in my direction) is necessarily the case either... but I am trying to discern that.
From what I read, I don’t believe your W is moving in your direction at all, I think she is at the least biding time until she can start A back up. My experience from my sitch, and from reading others sitch’s (including those that end up back here after years of piecing because another A started) is that you can’t save the M until the WS decides that’s what they want to try and do. Not because they don’t want to break up the family, not because they don’t want to move out or sell the family home, they need to 100% realize that there were issues in the M, but by working on themselves, and putting the work into the MR, that staying together is what is really what they want, and are willing to do ANYTHING to make it work. At that point, their attention will be completely on you, not other friends.
I note that Sandi and Wonka in particular seemed to think things were moving in a very positive direction and that you had a pretty good shot. Did you ultimately find out that it was ALL Bulls**t and that your W was fully engage in the A the whole time, or is it possible that the combativeness between the two of you and the continued suspicion (and jealousy?) might have pushed her in the opposite direction or at least made her more hesitant about committing to returning to you? Again, I know, perhaps a hard question, but these are hard situations and the stakes are high. Want to make sure I am fully exploring all facets of this thing.
I don’t believe the A was ongoing as far as them being intimate with each other physically or emotionally (OM was M also, and his W found out through some texts that I put on their Fire Department group chat), but I am pretty sure they always kept up secret communications (even though she would tell me she wasn’t talking to him), I don’t know if the A would have picked back up after all the dust settled, I just know that she was still talking to him and stated to many that he was “just” a friend. As long as I was still fighting for the MR, and we didn’t have to sell the family home, and she didn’t have to give up volunteering at the fire department, what did she have to lose? I don’t think my continued jealousy and snooping resulted in her keeping contact with OM, but I do believe that it further deteriated my MR and caused a lot of anger and hurt in me.
Thanks, all, and again, Coconut, PLEASE don't take this as me "calling you out"... I am really just trying to learn, and i DO see some similarites between your and my sitch (although from reading I think our respective W's are very different people... and at different points in their lives and prolly in their respecive A's as well)
I’ll be the first to say that I was one of the worst DBr’s in history, even though I really had some of the best advice anyone’s ever gotten, but I will say that I’ve come a longway from that person in a little over a year. I know how much my emotions have calmed down in the last year, and I can see that I'm in a much better place now to try and save my M (if I wanted to) than I was back then.
So I started with that, beginning with "Hey..
Why do I have a feeling there's a big ol' "but" coming?
Continuing... "However, while I really appreciate what you have been doing with texting me where you are and so forth, I really feel like you still do not understand or respect the dynamic between you and me right now
Ah, there it is
OK well first of all, I get the lack of trust. But (there I did it too, haha!) I think the way you approached it with her is coming off as a little preachy, like a parent scolding a kid. I mean I do get that she was cheating and there are trust issues there, but an important part of communication is expressing feelings, so rather than saying this:
...and are not showing me the respect and consideration you should, or trying to do what needs to be done to restore trust."
Maybe try this:
"I just want to explain to you that because of everything that's happened I still have major trust issues, it's something I'm really struggling with. So when you keep postponing like that it's making me worry and is even giving me anxiety. Can you see why I might react that way?"
Because the former is just going to put her on the defensive, but the latter will make her feel like "wow I hurt him again even though I didn't mean to, I need to do something to stop that." Notice the focus on "I" language in the latter statement and not "you" language.
This sharing feelings thing, it's really tough for me and really for most of us guys. I learned a lot about it in Retrouvaille but it requires a lot of work because I'm constantly defaulting back to being preachy/ parenty like what you did above. But my experience with XW and now GF has been that women react MUCH more favorably when you express your feelings to them.
She wasn't all that happy about that, saying she had "told me" and that she "texted me regularly" and that she felt like she was "doing a lot" and "what she was supposed be doing."
See you put her on the defensive. The thing is, YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT! Again, try to turn these conversations into a sharing of feelings instead of paving the way to anger and resentment.
Regarding her phone, she just unlocked it, handed it to me, and said "look." It was a completely surprise request by me, so she'd had no warning to delete or erase anything. There were no suspicious apps on it, no DMs in FB messenger, OM had been unfriended... She had NOT blocked OM on messenger, but there was no evidence of any communication for about a month (interestingly, there was a group chat DM he had sent in FB still there from a little over a month ago, which she said she did not even know about, which seems to mesh with her telling me that she doesn't even use FB messenger anymore). She blocked him on that app last night and gave me her phone password.
That was a huge, huge move on her part. I hope you thanked her for being open with you and sharing that, and expressed to her that you felt relieved and more secure that she really is making a strong effort. For a woman to hand you her phone like that, that's a big deal. A lot of them view someone looking at their phone as a violation.
Which puts me, exactly, where? She still has, at best, conflicted feelings about me.
Of course she does. You BOTH need time to build trust and lower the walls. I'm sorry but sometimes I get people's timelines mixed up, are y'all going to MC or have you discussed it? Also you mentioned Arlington, I'm in the Dallas area and Retrouvaille does have sessions here (I think the one we went to was in Irving) so do check into that.
We laugh and talk and joke and connect on about every level, socially, intellectually, etc., except intimately. She no longer pulls back when I touch her, but neither has she warmed up to me that much, and still says she "doesn't feel that spark" with me that she wants to feel and that she feels like "we both deserve."
And that's OK. Things have really progressed from where you were and will continue to progress if you both work at it. If you read the piecing threads you'll see this is very typical. The intimacy takes a while.
As a final note, since OM has apparently not been explicitly told "do not contact me" (though W says he knows she and I are "working on things") I am feeling like he and I need to have a talk.
I agree with Doodler, don't try to talk to him. BUT, you do need a boundary with W that she has zero, and I mean ZERO contact with him.
Jim
I read your whole post above. It's more of the same I'm afraid. And it's so very wordy which, tbh, just dilutes your message.
More words tend to lessen the impact of the content. not sure if that's how you speak to your wife but I had to read one of your paragraphs 3 times, to glean where you were going with it. Tell your wife what you need/want without so much qualifying explanation.
She either gets it. Or she doesn't care that much to get it. Seriously.
As LH says, your best chance of a lasting restored m, is by separating. It's clear to me that what you are doing now is not working. Period. I think it's half a$$ and she wants to avoid the kids knowing
and your present course of action will leave you in the "Pick me!" dance the rest of your life.
The best
most succinct summary of what is really happening in your m which you do not want to face partly b/c you blame yourself for the m you had before the A,
is below.
Jim,
I'll be a little more blunt because you seem to dance around everything.
Your wife is in an A with POS loser OM.
You have two options:
1. Keep spying on her and getting confirmation and then try to rationalize what your confirming is not true. This will keep you in a painful limbo for a very long time.
2. Act on your boundary and politely ask her to leave the house and see if she values marriage, family, and security.
One makes you look very weak and the other makes you look strong.
IMO you have a better chance to reconcile if you initiate separation.
Reading what happened with your W having some drinks I can recognize myself. But I think you went about it a bit harsh. As someone who sometimes goes and grabs drinks with coworkers it is hard to figure out details (sometimes it JUST gets decided) and you cannot really keep your spouse informed...or you want to text/call and someone says 'let's go'. And knowing when it ends...what seems at one point to die down can go on for a while. The texts I read from your W to me come across as someone who is trying to keep you informed. Does that mean she wants to disrespect you? Doesn't care to hang out with you? Is wanting time to talk to OM? etc...all maybe.
Now in my sitch, NC hasn't been achieved but my W felt her privacy and space was not respected and it kept her switching between warm and cold interactions with me. Our WW need to feel they can come back. Now the MR won't work with OM involved. But if they feel that they have to justify every little thing they do they might decide that they feel too guilty, too embarrassed or too controlled. Obviously, it is up to you how much leeway you would like to give her but if you want her back she would need to feel safe. In my case, I want my W and I want to see if we both can change our MR to make us both happy. Does OM fit into this? I don't see that work, not even as a friend. But I can insist or I can decide that since she keeps saying she is scared of me that maybe she needs more time. When I stopped caring so much or insisting she must be plotting to sleep with him, her whole behavior changed (it didn't hurt that I also validated her points that despite my intentions...I did engage in abusive behavior). She seems to feel a little safer.
NOW when both of you commit to working on this then maybe that can change and she will have to justify. And I think it was a good sign your W showed her phone. Two options: a) she is telling the truth OR b) she had one of those destroying apps and knew you would ask.
Does it matter at this point? If she is telling the truth she might feel exhausted that everything that doesn't go according to plan gets criticized. If she is lying...then okay how will you proof that. Until she recommits or actively changes her behavior like for instance asking if you want to go back to MC. When you told her you had no desire to continue that how did she react? Besides maybe she is using that app to talk to friends about feeling so guilty and trying to get advice. Am I delusional? Maybe. But what is it you want? What is it you need?
Again. Maybe I am approaching this differently than some others on here but clearly both our WW were missing something in our respective MR. Unless those conditions change they may have done something bad but they need a reason to want to come back. When they do, it is OUR turn to ask for things. DR has a whole chapter on it which if you google other resources is a pretty common approach. But neither my W nor your W has said they want to make the MR work (or did I miss that?). Should we be a doormat? Nope. Should we be confrontational beyond reason? Absolutely not.
The reason why I ask for her reaction is that in my case when I was ready to break off MC she pleaded we come back and our session a few days later went really well (W acknowledged there that initially she expected one or two sessions to be enough for her to know what she wants). She asked for IC and her session is tomorrow. Our mutual interactions have changed. I don't even know how much contact she has with OM through text but it definitely reduced because she already was talking to a lot of people but now is less and less on her phone and has been more interacting with me and has done so with much more warmth. I don't think we are on the road to recovery but we definitely are looking at going on a road trip and deciding what needs to be packed so the trip is fun and fulfilling and we might decide that one of us is just hitchhiking along to the next city. This is my gut feeling but when I read your discussion I don't see much coming from her other than a genuine attempt to let you know the plans might change. So to continue my dumb analogy she is thinking as to what to do.
My approach may be wrong but if I saw those texts I would validate that perhaps plans might change so maybe could have said: oh that sounds like fun, perhaps it is better to reschedule for another day? But in the past I did engage in sighing and being upset and feeling she disrespected me for letting plans change.
Real WTF weekend.
So i go to a college fraternity reunion friday night out of town to reconnect with some old friends, while W heads up to her family's place with kids for family reunion. Our last talk just before I left had involved Thursday night again, where I was sure to tell her how much it meant for me to open her phone to me, and also we talk about stuff in general, where I again tell her "maybe we just need some time apart", which seems to surprise her.
On drive down, and I can't make this stuff up, my best bud texts me to ask "what OM'S last name is". I tell him and ask "why", to which he basically responds "nothing, never mind". My response is "you absolutely can NOT _______ text me that and then not say why." (As a reminder, this friend is the currently separated H from my W's own bff who is herself a WW and who also is acquainted with and been sometime facilitator of my W's A, at least tacitly and probably at times actively.) My friend then says he found a "mistakenly returned" piece of mail addressed to someone with that first name but then won't tell me more by text. In person, when I arrive, he won't spill any details, implying that it WAS from my W, addressed to OM, with return address his OWN W's house where he found it because his "radar was up." (His radar was up because his WW had just told him last week the A she had been having with ANOTHER of our "friends" was not over as she had previously told him but had been restarted BY HER a couple weeks back. He says that my W is his friend, too, and that he can't "take sides", that he has duty of loyalty to his own W (he's kind of gone off deep end a bit) and wont do anything to "hurt her", though does imply to me that this piece of mail indicared I was "in better shape than I thought". Just really bizarre all around. Not sure if he shared his discovery with his own WW or not (who undoubtedly had told MY wife that she could use their address as a return) but I wouldn't doubt it. I knew of this letter from about three,weeks back, but didn't know content (assumed maybe birthday card to OM or possibly break up letter). I have good reason to believe my F found it in trash, which would mean my W didn't have bff try to redeliver after initial delivery attempt failed. Why was MY friend going through trash? Becsuse, as I also find out upon arrival, HIS WW had just been outed on FB as continuing to carry on an A with ANOTHER friend of ours that she had told him was over months ago. Of course he instantly "forgave" both her AND our other friend, wants to conine to we or on his own MR, and can't wait to see other friend afain, not to kick his a$$, but to "reconnect" etc. Like I said, very weird WTF stuff. And this is the guy who introduced me to the DB books.
So, Saturday afterblnoon, I drive back up for W's family reunion. When I get there, she is all dolled up, comes up to me and puts her arms around me and kisses me on neck (more affection than she has shown me at any time since BD). For rest of weekend, whether in presence of her family or not, she is fun, engaging, warm, even flirty. Touches me frequently, does not shrink away when I do so to her, and when I come to bed Saturday night she has arranged herself in such a way that I can't get in bed without spooning or cuddling in some fashion with her. So, I do, put my arms around her and whisper "are you okay with this?" (Because previously she most certainly has NOT been and has told me so.) She responds with a soft "mmmm hmmmm". We don't take it any farther than that, and I don't get signals that she wants to, though the warmer demeanor continues throughout Sunday. I have no idea what sparked it, although we have been spending more fun, connected time together past two to three weeks and I know she says she is trying to just "live in each moment".
She had been being pretty stalwart for months, now, that she did not want to lead me on and was holding back even more,than prolly reasonable in that regard as a result. I did not sense anything manipulative or duplicitous in her, and we did not talk about that or about any MR stuff. I hope to do so when she gets home today (she and S18 stayed to help out her parents for an extra day). Very strange and unexpected weekend. Sorry if I rambled.
Also, for those of you worrying that I am not GALing enough, for the Seco d straight such event with Ws family, pretty much everyone remarked to her or to me how profoundly changed a person I was, how well I seemed to be doing and how fun I was to be around. For my part, I can say it's a great deal about faith and the associated outlook... I myself am living much more "in" the moment, enjoying people and places and events, rather than just trying to "get through" them, as I used. Much happier way to live.
Jim, your friend is in some super deep poop there, I hope you're trying to offer some DBing advice to him because he is headed for disaster. I can't believe he is the one that suggested DB to you but then is engaging in that kind of "turn the other cheek" behavior to his wife's shenanigans.
Very nice that your W warmed up some. Now prepare yourself, because more than likely she'll decide it was "too much" and give you the ice princess routine for a while. Stay off her roller coaster and stick to your plan.
Everything going on is stressful for her too, every now and then she wants a break from the stress also, and she likely decided to use the weekend away with family to take a break from everything and just pretend everything's ok.
The thing is, she knows you will allow her to do that with you whenever she wants, so I think she took advantage of that to pretend everything was great, which put you in a better mood, thus making it a stress free weekend.
Like AS stated, be prepared for the ice princess to reappear.
Very nice that your W warmed up some. Now prepare yourself, because more than likely she'll decide it was "too much" and give you the ice princess routine for a while. Stay off her roller coaster and stick to your plan.
That would not at all surprise me and, TBH, I think I saw a bit of that starting last night, but we shall see. Not that that would be at all out of character for her even if she WERE "moving back towards me"-- that little dance went on between us for a good part of the first fifteen months we knew each other (she has some self-image and guilt and possibly even commitment issues and always has).
At any rate, I think I am fully prepared for that. While weekend was very nice, I didn't let myself get carried away. Spent plenty of time "away" from her talking to the numerous other members of her family who I like and enjoy spending time with (which is actually pretty much all of them) which had the added benefit (I think it was a benefit at least) of everyone telling her how much fun it was talking to me, how fit I am looking these days, etc etc.
My feelings and emotions about are, I think, pretty grounded-- that it was nice but I dont "expect" anything to come of it and I didn't try to push things with her at all. My body OTOH wanted her desperately
which she probably doesn't need to know right now. If she had come on to me strong (which she didn't, thankfully) don't know how I would have responded-- she can be very "convincing." If she continues to "warm up" to me once back home perhaps I will allow her back in a little more... but we have work to do. If we talk about it, which I more than half expect her to try to do at some point, my take will be this: "Look, it was a nice weekend, I enjoyed it and you are doing some very nice things that I really appreciate and value to show me I can trust you and let you back in but... it's still early. I feel like we have a lot of work to do and I don't even know how committed you are to working on things with us long-term." If she mentions bed and how that felt I may even throw in a "look, I am very attracted to you physically, but don't know if that's a place I'm willing to go right now until we get our relationship back on track or at least unless and until I know we are both committed to working on the MR... assuming that's what you want."
I also plan to keep alive the idea that "maybe we need some time apart" because... maybe we do. Though I am not nearly as hard-over rabid about it as some on this site seem to be. I think it's an option, not necessarily a necessity. And quite possibly not even desirable in our case. A lot of weird nuances WRT both my W and WRT our MR/sitch
Jim, your friend is in some super deep poop there, I hope you're trying to offer some DBing advice to him because he is headed for disaster. I can't believe he is the one that suggested DB to you but then is engaging in that kind of "turn the other cheek" behavior to his wife's shenanigans.
Yeah, I know. It [censored]. Pray for the guy every day but not sure what more I can do. He has very stubborn thinking patterns. Once he gets something in his head he doesn't change course easily. He for instance, was one of my major inspirations for being so sanguine at the start of my own W's affair-- "You need to be loving towards her all the time" and not suspcious, "dont try to control her... let her go out with her friends" (mainly his own WW). He was also a constant "naysayer" to the my belief of my W having an A, due at least in part to his own WW (who is my own W's bff, and whom he trusts unreservedly) constantly telling him "they are just friends" and the like. Because of course they "share everything" including everything about me and my W, though come to find out it was only HIM sharing everything about ME and NOT the other way around (i.e. his W was DEFINITELY keeping secret the profundity of the A my own W was having.) He also is of the opinion that only sexual intercourse constitutes an affair, that everything else is basically not that objectionable, and that even intercourse is okay "if i know eventually I would forgive her and take her back anyway." At any rate, he like to never bought into the idea that my W was having an A, even when I told him I had proof (which I did NOT share with him due to leakage fears to his wife) and likely only when he found the discarded "return mail" item over the weekend. Maddening.
At any rate, that's the kind of rigid thinking I am dealing with here. He is fully convinced that God is going to wave his magic wand and reconcile him and his wife. As a man of faith myself, I of course believe that God could do this very thing... if He wanted to. Of course I also understand that most often, in fact overwhelmingly often, God has work for US to do before the miracle happens. He ain't likely going to do squat for you if you do nothing... Say, for example, enabling and appeasing your W to have A after A while staying friends with both her and her APs. Now... I don't know what messages or inspiration he is getting from his faith and from God... Maybe in his case that is ultimately going to work out for him doing things that way... but it SURE as hell doesn't look like that right now. But he will hear NOTHING about it. Basically told me this weekend he doesn't want to discuss his MR sitch with me any longer nor in fact does he want to discuss mine as it is too painful and our philosophies are "too different". And also that he will not entertain any ill words about his W whom he places just below God but above friends in his hierarchy of loyalty/responsibility.
Also, since he shares EVERYTHING with his own currently separated W (who is my own W's bff), it is "too hard and painful and confusing" for him to have confidential talks with me about my own MR but especially about HIS MR. IOW, if I were to go to him saying "you need to step back, detach, etc if you really want to get her back" or anything to that effect, it will almost certainly get back to his W, who will undoubtedly tell my W, who will a) know that I am encouraging my friend to change his ways and his relationship with his W (and my W is convinced that our friends' separation and pending divorce is working "Great" and both are "happier than they have ever been" though she misses that their kids are miserable) and probably hate me for that AND b) possibly come to understand that I am DB-ing or something like that on my own side and trying to "manipulate" her back into a MR with me. So... yeah. Would love to help him but not really sure how to do that.
Now, his odd stance WRT his wife and PARTICULARLY WRT his friend (who was a fraternity brother to all who were gathered this weekend at my reunion) was a hot topic of conversation. Opinions varied on the culpability and dislike-worthiness of his W due to fact that a) he has pretty much told her he is okay with her exploring her sexuality and doing whatever she wants and b) even "releasing her from her vows" and even forgiving her for the A after he intially found out about it last fall (though he didn't know it had been rekindled) and that c) He claims to be and to all appearances seems to be completely content and happy. (THough he DOES allow that while he is happy he would be MORE happy if he could get back together with his W and that currently she is still the woman he would most want to spend the rest of his life with.) There was less conflicted opinion about our fraternity brother (the current AP to my friends W) who KNOWS my friend still wants to work on his MR and reconcile with his wife, had originally started the A with my friend's W WHILE they were still together and not even decided to separate, was huge dick to my friend when my friend confronted him about the A, is himself married to someone that most of us consider a friend, and is just somewhat of an a$$ even as he would probably have previously been considered a friend by most. Opinion in that vein is pretty much that he (frat brother AP) should at least be shunned and cut of our good friend's life and, quite possibly, beaten within an inch of his sorry life. This was no casual friendship between these two... they were best friends, at least in my own friend's mind. But... my friend now "cant wait to try to reconnect with this guy" even as he "still wants to work on his MR" and "doesn't want an open marriage." AM I TAKING CRAZY PILLS?!?!? I love this guy like a brother, but just don't know how to help him. Maybe one of my other friends can talk sense to him, but I think one or two already tried to no avail.
I guess if he's happy...
He also is of the opinion that only sexual intercourse constitutes an affair, that everything else is basically not that objectionable, and that even intercourse is okay "if i know eventually I would forgive her and take her back anyway."
He needs to go read that ... web site, LOL!
He is fully convinced that God is going to wave his magic wand and reconcile him and his wife. As a man of faith myself, I of course believe that God could do this very thing... if He wanted to. Of course I also understand that most often, in fact overwhelmingly often, God has work for US to do before the miracle happens. He ain't likely going to do squat for you if you do nothing...
Or even if you do something. We can't pray our way out of BD. Believe me, if that were possible I would be a shining example of it, because I prayed 10 times or more a day and they were genuine, heartfelt prayers. Pray if it makes you feel better, but don't lean on it like a crutch. You've got to do the work yourself.
Basically told me this weekend he doesn't want to discuss his MR sitch with me any longer nor in fact does he want to discuss mine as it is too painful and our philosophies are "too different". And also that he will not entertain any ill words about his W whom he places just below God but above friends in his hierarchy of loyalty/responsibility.
Man every time I read anything about him "chump" just jumps straight to the front of my brain
I think you need a new friend to talk your sitch over with, because he clearly is not on the same page.
if I were to go to him saying "you need to step back, detach, etc if you really want to get her back" or anything to that effect, it will almost certainly get back to his W, who will undoubtedly tell my W
That's reason enough to quit talking to him. You need to confide in a person or people who have no ties to your W, it needs to be people you can say anything to without fear of it ever getting back to your W. I'm not saying not to ever talk with him, but don't share ANYTHING with him about your W or your sitch anymore.
Oh, and for comic relief--- something I left out above and the final bizarre twist from a weekend full of really bizarre and unanticipated events: I received a text... FROM THE OM!!
Okay, so he didn't text me intentionally, from the looks of it he must have sent out the message to his entire phone contact list, about 45 people. I guess he just never took me off of his contact list, LOL. XD
At any rate, I was in a limited cellular coverage area when it came in, and it was a "multimedia message", which means it had to download, so it took about 15 minutes from the time I first heard the warning chirp that i had a new message. I recognize the number, of course, so for 15 minutes I'm sitting there wondering "what is this M-Fer sending me a message for?" Challenge me to a fight? Throw in the towel on my wife? Ask me for her hand in marriage? Im on the edge of my seat! I almost, ALMOST texted W to ask "why the hell is OM sending me a text right now" but I didn't (and I'm glad). Ended up being something he wanted to text out about his son who is on our High School's football team and had an event last weekend. DANGIT i thought it was really going to be something catalytic, but no dice. At least I got his full phone contact list (one of which numbers is, I assume, my W's former "cheater phone") out of the deal if i ever decide I want to scorch him in some way...
Just weird, weird, weird weekend. Some good stuff there but... Weird.
And this is my last post about this because this is a huge distraction from my own sitch at some point, but...
Sad, sad sad thing is that in many respects dude is acting like a DB-ing champ! He is GAL-ing and 180-ing like crazy!!! I haven't seen or heard of anyone making the kinds of changes and self-improvements and such that he is making... his faith being a HUGE one (one of the most avowed atheists I have ever known prior to his recent conversion-- and the conversion is absolutely 100% genuine), as well as his warmth and commitment to the relationships in his life... But... He has just so completely let his WW (apparently) run completely wild while remaining full committed to her and available to her pretty much whenever she wants that I don't know if he will ever "get her back."
OF course, with God, all things are possible, but... I am not sure my bud is reading the divine tea leaves right as to what he's supposed to be doing. Could be wrong-- and he's taking a three week sabbatical to travel across country following one of his favorite band on tour, so maybe his W will start missing him during that time and things will turn for him... but... anyway. Enough. Makes me sad. Was a time the four of us were real tight... did a lot of fun things together.
Well, coconut hit the nail pretty much exactly on the head: "I was just trying to be carefree and happy and have fun while with my family." Also: "I had alot of fun, it was nice, but I don't want to jump your bones."(and no, I didn't ask).
Finally, it sEems likely she was secret chatting on FB messenger with OM. On way back from gym I DM'd my don about college orientation coming up. Noticed wife was "on", which is unusual these days. As lso noticed OM was on. She was on couch on her phone and saw me through windows as I walked up front walk. She put phone down as I came in. I went to bathroom to shower, checked phone immediately. Both her and OM were then "off". She kept phone close rest of evening. She was standoffish after that, consistent with pasthma contacting OM episodes. No way to be sure or prove though.
hoosjim: THAT last paragraph will drive you nuts. Can you bring it up to her? Could you perhaps mention how when you drove home you messaged your son?
Part of me wonders if she really wanted to speak to OM without you knowing she would find a different app. After all even if you didn't see her online you could check the last time either one of them was online.
This is a frustrating position to be in but it seems you struggle with trusting your W. She has given you plenty of reason to do that. But without trust it won't ever work. Maybe giving her more space and time to think about things might warm her up more.
In my sitch...our trip together was wonderful and W even did mention how it was nice to pretend everything was okay and we didn't have to focus on tough conversations. While back at home she has continued to be warm towards me. BUT I also now am much better able to give her space to "get more spoons" (anyone on here who is introverted knows the analogy). Could she be speaking to OM? Sure. But those thoughts will drive me crazy. I need to offer her a safe place to feel at home...once she does we can discuss about some of the things she needs to do (but the thing is SHE already does that).
So what coconut described and what you confirmed kind of happened may be true. But you have to ask yourself how much energy you want to put into making sure OM is out of the picture. AND you have to ask if you think making it work with her long term is worth it. Either way GAL. (And I fully recognize the irony of me saying that to you since I don't always do it myself.) But I recognize the fear and the doubt and the thoughts that might go through you when you saw them both online, you saw her put the phone away etc. That is rough. And no one can understand those feelings unless you have been through it.
At the end of the day if she said the weekend felt nice it might mean a small step forward. It might mean that she is right now thinking about the challenges but working herself back to you. Maybe she spoke to OM about needing to end contact. Maybe HE was bugging her. Maybe she was speaking to another friend. Maybe she feels really guilty about not wanting to jump your bones. Maybe she wanted to but was worried you would think everything is fine. Maybe... etc etc.
It is rough though.
Thanks, tobias. Please keep posting on my thread. I find your words very stabilizing. I'll try to return the favor.
Also, quick crazy update: Is it mercury retrograde right now or something? Weird things continue to happen to and around me. Today at gym, I texted a couple of times with W, then put phone in pocket. When next I take it out, I see at text has been sent to her: "Divorce I I gain". WTF?!?! Of all the things to get mistakenly/inadvertently sent to my estranged W with whom I am trying to reconcile... Not sure how that happened, though "divorce" is my default first "autocomplete" word for "d" due to coming here so often. Guess texting app left opened in pocket had a life of its own, lol. Guess it could've been worse, like "Get out of my life you cheating wh**e" or something.
She was definitely, let's say, curious.
I am glad they are stabilizing (although of course keep in mind that I am still working on my own sitch...) there are a lot of wise people on here. Some of what I am writing is also in response to myself and keeping in mind that while there are differences that the approach that is recommended has a lot of overlaps.
I think the biggest difference in the advice is on "observe what happens and adjust your acting" and I think whatever overlap there is in our situations that the crucial difference is in that part and in turn that influences the GAL and detaching and 180s. AND in turn the reactions (not just words but actions) of our H/W.
Dang it. I just can't trust her.
Maybe I should, but she has definitely not made any sort of rock solid commitment to the MR, and there are just too many doubts on the OM/A front. She easily could have seen him the two days she was beach with bff (OM was at a beach, too, just don't know which of the two near us, so 50-50)-- I will never know, though, as I had no surveillance on her. He MAY be calling her at work, or vice versa... I have no and will never have any way to check that, so relying on trust... of which I have little to none. She and bff have distanced somewhat in last week due to bff's AP's W blowing up THEIR A on social media and the blowback amongst our own circle of friends (all principles except for one, so six of seven, in this ridiculously entangled love triangle(s?) are or were fairly close friends), so that overlay is not currently a huge issue, though she could still be channelling communications to my W... although for the time being and for other reasons I think not. (Bff is not hanging with that other crowd very much if at all right now). HOWEVER, I have put back up some surveillance of her, mostly tracking her phone, from time to time just to keep tabs, and while she has not "gone" anywhere that could be a meet up, she has twice driven to really odd places at really odd times,way out of her way... and not stopped anywhere just turned around and came back. As if she thought about it and then decided not to. Suppose that would be a good sign, except... neither spot was a typical hangout or meet up spot previously, so there would have had to have been some communication with OM that would motivate her to go to those places, whether or not she actually went all the way through with a meet up. And, she's "pulled back" and is acting odd as well as changing her tune from "I don't want to jump your bones" to "I don't want to jump ANYBODY's bones", both of which are more indicative of her periods of surreptitious contact with OM.
So, I have a boundary. She knows about it. If I find out it has been violated, i would act. Immediately. Unfortunately, if she IS contacting OM, it is so far underground I am not sure I will EVER find out about it. Good news, I guess, if you can call it that, is that she "thinks I don't know", so no additional loss of respect for looking weak, but seems like that would be setting me up for an indefinite period of painful limbo. I'd rather just know and get it over with.
OTOH, suppose she really is NC-ing. Which is quite possible. Perhaps even the most probable scenario here. I could really burn some bridges by coming across all suspicious, questioning, etc. Let alone saying "let's split."
I am actually increasingly sympathetic to the "separation" paradigm, here, but not sure what my justification is if I don't know she's maintaining contact with OM. And no point in asking her if she is or not. Guess I could just say "Look, I appreciate what you've done, and I've enjoyed some of our recent time together, but... I just don't get the feeling you're committed to this MR and I am not willing to keep treading water her, especially given the circumstances (i.e. her recent infidelity and the continuing ambiguity about it.)
I am still not understanding. I think I have said this a few times before, but why are you killing yourself over surveillance and the OM when she hasn't even recommitted to the M?
Why don't you do yourself a favor, eliminate OM from your radar, stop snooping, and take a breather. If she actually comes to you and wants to work on the M, then you decide if you need to monitor her and OM. Right now, there is no purpose in you doing it. It's only going to drive you nutso.
I just cant win with you people. Sandi2 says "you shouldn't have taken down your surveillance", you say "take it down". Yeeesh.
Why i am still checking is because I had good reason to believe she (W) was, in her own paradigm, trying to "work on us." Sandi2 suggested or at least implied that doing some "checking" would not be a bad idea, and I agreed. Problem is it has now added some uncertainty. So, yeah, detachment may be the way to go.
For the record, I am not constantly checking up on her/following her movements like I was previously. From time to time, though...
You are spinning all over the place in your head. I never like to go against Sandi's advice, so I won't. Maybe I missed what her version of "working on us" looks like. All I see is her cake eating and you spinning around about contact/no contact/OM.
What I see is someone constantly spinning and putting all his mental energy into OM and contact for a woman who hasn't committed to anything and is looking awfully suspicious and doing her own thing with her BFF.
I still the most likely way you are going to get anywhere is moving on, quite honestly.
Jim,
Can you give us some examples of her "working on us"?
Ginger is right, she hasn't recommitted to MR, so your killing yourself making sure that she isn't with OM, which doesn't matter if she doesn't want to be with you anyway.
I don't think I've ever known sandi2 to say that you should continue to snoop after finding out about the A and before the WW wife shows remorse. Once you know about the A, there is no gain in snooping until it is needed to trust but verify.
Let me ask you a question, if your wife didn't talk to you for the next week, would you "move on"? what about the next month, 6 months, year? my point is that you backing away from your wife and focusing on you isn't going to make her give up if she wants you... But it WILL help save your sanity. If neither of you is going to move out, how about you just start doing your own thing.
no more family time, spend that time with friends or meeting new people... Put 100% into your relationships with friends and families, it sounds like a lot of them know about what's going on, so they won't hesitate to accept an invite from you, nor would they find it strange for you ask to come over and spend time with them. Get away from her and spend your time focusing on you.
I agree with the others. Your going to lose your mind chasing after your W. At a bare minimum check phone records once a month. But the constantly will drive you mad. What are kind of surveillance are you using anyways? And didn't she suspect you had surveillance on her?
Well, she was still talking with OM. She fessed up today. For the second time in three months she purchased a "cheater phone" from straight talk. She also might have met up with him briefly today but it doesn't matter. She can't be trusted, she knows I know. I told her at first that "you can't stay here", in the end fif now she is out of mbr. I'm done talking to her as well except for necessitie
I'm sorry to hear that, but I'm glad you finally confirmed so you can start healing and working on yourself.
The longer you take to change things, I mean really change the dynamic of your interactions with her, the less she will respect you. She now knows you know, she's looking to see what your going to do about her, dropping her like a hot potatoe would be the best thing you could do.
First rule, no more R talks, none... Don't be mean, if she initiates, validat, but really try not telling her how you feel, provide no information or questions, just validate. And watch your anger, it will come, it will hurt your chances if you lash out... I say again, if I had to do it over again, I'd of walked away and not talked to her for months.
So tell us what happened between you need to move out and her staying in MBR?
Definitely sorry to hear about this. But the good news is that if I recall correctly your W is interested in working on the MR. Which means that She might care actually care about the consequences of her actions. She just keeps messing up. Go ahead and kick her out the home of possible. It's time for her to face some consequences. You will feel hurt by this choice, but it's for the best. And will truly make your W come out of the fog.
Don't know if I can "kick her out". Well, actually, I know that I definitely CANT kick her out. At least in the state we live in currently. And I think not even if I could prove she was sleeping with him. I CAN strongly suggest, however.
I think part of her does "want to work on it"... but not really all that strongly. Or, perhaps, she believes she can "work on us" while still maintaining a "friendship" with the OM. She has said something like that on several occasions, to her friends, to me, and even to our MC (who basically told her she's full of s**t and she needed to completely cut contact)-- she thinks or thought she could "separate the two in her head." She kept saying last night she was "almost to cutting it off cold turkey" and she was trying to sort through this "the best way she knows how" and that she "doesn't know why she feels the way she does and is doing some of the things she's been doing." There is still some rebelliousness there in her, too, and she told me as much "part of me just really wants to say 'this is how I am going to do this because everyone else is saying that's the way I shouldn't do it'", and she still is resentful of me monitoring her and wants to know "how I did it" (I didn't tell her) and also feels "pisssed off" that "this one thing" has now become "the big thing" even though we already had a lot of other problems. Of course, she is "sorry she hurt me" which, in my mind, is just a half step above saying "Im sorry you feel that way." Still feel like there is a good part of her that thinks what she is doing is "okay".
She's been calling me and texting me non-stop today. Last VM she left was in tears. "Please call me."
Make her wait even longer before you respond. More messages with tears are needed. She needs to know what she is seriously risking. The first sign of tears are likely just her defense mechanism to get you to breakdown.
Dont know if I'll need to walk away for 6 months or not. Depends entirely upon her. And I mean entirely. I am done riding that roller coaster. If she WANTS to end that A and can PROVE IT to me to MY satisfaction, then maybe i could somehow find a way to trust her and start moving forward but... not sure there is anything she could do right now that I could/would trust. Some of that WW rebellious mindset is clearly still there, as are some feelings for OM, and the clock on any "recovery" she could have from that just got reset to zero. She has work to do. May need some IC, idunno. But she is not "relationship ready" right now. At least not for me. I deserve (and our kids deserve) better.
Last night, I left her in tears and went to sleep in guest BR, but I had told her previously "she couldn't stay here" (meaning the house) which she bridled at because she "is trying to work on things with us".
The one, idunno, "encouraging" thing, if you want to call it that is that, on some level, she offered up what she had been doing on the phone voluntarily. I found the phone and confronted her and we left the house to talk when things started getting emotional (not screaming angry, though my voice was shaking a bit at first and she was in tears). She told me at first that the extra phone was just to "talk to bff" because she (bff) was worried that all my W's calls were being monitored and she didn't want me listening in on HER (bff's) business AND because she (my W) felt like she needed to be able to talk to her friends about her problems without looking over her shoulder. She HAD managed to slip into the bathroom an delete all the history on the phone. After she said all of that, I asked her "If we were to get out the account info on that phone and go look up the history for calls and texts, what would we see." She was completely silent and i was completely silent. For over 30 minutes neither of us spoke and she sat there with her head in her hands. She really could have said anything-- refused to let me see phone... Heck, Im not even sure is Straight Talk maintains call records for their phones... but finally she said, through tears... "what do you want me to say" and I said "I want you to answer my question"... So she told me about the calls and texts she'd been having with OM. To me, that is very, very very SLIGHTLY encouraging... for perhaps some point in the future. But she is about a million miles right now from me trusting her.
Oh, and meant to add-- I am NOT sleeping in guest BR tonight. Guest BR had actually become kind of the temporary MBR becuase the MBR was a bit of a wreck with a bunch of stuff piled on the bed, so we were already set up to sleep in Guest BR. I am cleaning it up this afternoon when I get home and reclaiming it however. Going to tell her I'd like her to sleep in Guest BR-- don't feel like I should be the one to have to leave the MBR.
she believes she can "work on us" while still maintaining a "friendship" with the OM.
That's her goal, are you going to show her that's not an option? Look Jim, if you can't commit to moving away for a few months, can you get out of the house for a few days to a week? Go completely dark? Block her on your cell phone.
she still is resentful of me monitoring her and wants to know "how I did it" (I didn't tell her)
and don't tell her, if you go completely dark and she feels like she's losing you, and she wants you back, she'll know that she won't be able to sneak around without you being able to find out. funny, but I also want to know how you did it, but I don't have any use for that kinda of information anymore, if I ever feel the need to verify someone im in a R with now, i'll just leave that R.
also feels "pisssed off" that "this one thing" has now become "the big thing" even though we already had a lot of other problems.
Standard stuff, mine said the same thing over and over.
She's been calling me and texting me non-stop today. Last VM she left was in tears. "Please call me."
can you block her on your phone for a little while? you need to step away from her and focus on yourself for a little, and her popping up on your screen doesn't allow you to do that.
can you block her on your phone for a little while? you need to step away from her and focus on yourself for a little, and her popping up on your screen doesn't allow you to do that.
Not really, we have two special needs kids, one of whom is getting ready to go off to college which is requiring a lot of prep work, the other who has profound Tourette's syndrome (almost to the point of seeming autistic at times.) I kind of need to be available by phone in order to be available to do what I need to do for my kids-- and often that means being available to her by phone as well.
Look Jim, if you can't commit to moving away for a few months, can you get out of the house for a few days to a week?
Should I really be the one leaving the home? Doesn't that look kind of weak? Especially when my kids still need a little looking after and at a somewhat tumultuous time (one getting ready to go off to college)? I'm supposed to be "the lightouse", an important component of which involves, I would think, being a strong and present father for my kids... ESPECIALLY when the other parent is in the throws of an irresponsible, wayward mindset.
can you block her on your phone for a little while? you need to step away from her and focus on yourself for a little, and her popping up on your screen doesn't allow you to do that.
Not really, we have two special needs kids, one of whom is getting ready to go off to college which is requiring a lot of prep work, the other who has profound Tourette's syndrome (almost to the point of seeming autistic at times.) I kind of need to be available by phone in order to be available to do what I need to do for my kids-- and often that means being available to her by phone as well.
Look Jim, if you can't commit to moving away for a few months, can you get out of the house for a few days to a week?
Should I really be the one leaving the home? Doesn't that look kind of weak? Especially when my kids still need a little looking after and at a somewhat tumultuous time (one getting ready to go off to college)? I'm supposed to be "the lightouse", an important component of which involves, I would think, being a strong and present father for my kids... ESPECIALLY when the other parent is in the throws of an irresponsible, wayward mindset.
Yeah, she should be the one leaving the home, but she is not.
You don't have to be present to be present! Stable and consistent goes way beyond physically being in the house.
How did you find out about the burner phone?
Hoosjim,
Don't give your W any credit for telling the truth. She lied at first saying it was for her bff. And then only told the truth after clearing the history and the threat of checking the phone records. Even then it took 30 minutes of her searching for excuses in her head before confessing. You got to stop reaching for excuses.
Jim,
you keep telling us about what she says and how that might be a good sign.. talk is cheap, what is she doing to show you that she wants to be with you?
She's continuing to talk, and maybe more. No matter how close she tells you that she is cutting it off cold turkey, she's still talking to him.
She's "upfront" with you and told you about the phone, but then she deleted the call history and tried to convince you it was only bff she used it for.
Look, this whole conversation shouldn't have happened. What was your boundary about contact with OM? If I recall correctly, it was that you would be done... As soon as you knew, you should have protected yourself and followed your boundary. If/when she stops talking to OM, then you could decide what you want to do then, but right then, at that moment, you were weak and failed to enforce your boundary by ceasing communication with her.
There are two ways that this can play out, you can be in an open M, or you can stand up for yourself and start to move on. If your boundary is that you won't be in an open M, then as long as she is wayward, you start moving on from the M. If she ceases with OM and wants you back, she will let you know.
What are you afraid of? That if you leave she will move on? News flash, she has moved on, she just wants to bring you along.
Should I really be the one leaving the home? Doesn't that look kind of weak? Especially when my kids still need a little looking after and at a somewhat tumultuous time (one getting ready to go off to college)? I'm supposed to be "the lightouse", an important component of which involves, I would think, being a strong and present father for my kids... ESPECIALLY when the other parent is in the throws of an irresponsible, wayward mindset.
I agree with you, stay in the house. You can pressure her to leave but legally you can't kick her out. But if you hold your ground by staying in the house AND in the bed, and you detach as much as you can and treat her like a roommate that you don't necessarily enjoy being around but have to tolerate, then at some point she'll leave on her own.
Ok, let me be clear on my point, I agree that staying in the house/MBR and DETACHING would be best case scenario. However, most LBS are not able to do that; I believe that if you cannot detach and focus on you, then you are doing more damage than good.
Personally, I think walking out of the house, going dark, and focusing on yourself looks a heck of a lot stronger than staying in the master bedroom, moping around, constantly checking up on the WW, and engaging R discussions.
To be clear, coconut, I did not "know" for sure until she confessed. She held phone and had clearly had time to delete history. I didn't even know for sure she'd done that until she told me, just that she'd had opportunity. I don't even know if what I said, checking record, was possible with a burner phone. At any rate, until that point in the convo, she had at least some level of deniability. After that, she didn't. AT THAT POINT, I thanked her for answering me truthfully, said "I'm walking home", got out of the car aND did just that (3 miles, nice walk.) She broke into tears, said "please just ride back to house" but I said no and got out. She got out of car and called to me but I didn't look back.
The other part of the convo occurred later as I was getting ready for bed. I did mostly listening and very little talking.
I just cant win with you people. Sandi2 says "you shouldn't have taken down your surveillance", you say "take it down". Yeeesh.
Why i am still checking is because I had good reason to believe she (W) was, in her own paradigm, trying to "work on us." Sandi2 suggested or at least implied that doing some "checking" would not be a bad idea, and I agreed. Problem is it has now added some uncertainty. So, yeah, detachment may be the way to go.
Ha, I knew when I made that comment that you would cling to that one thing, if you remembered
nothing else I had written. Let me try to clarify to everyone, b/c it was highly unusual for me to suggest you should have left up the surveIllance. At that time, you were debating whether or not she was trying to put some form of effort into NC. It was mostly just you wanting to
believe she was NC with OM. She had not made clear, verbal verification of ending the A or of NC with OM. She continued engaging, in what I saw as suspicious behavior. You would not insist on a transparency plan.......but rather, you wanted to simply "trust" this WW who had volunteered no proof of ending her A, nor was she committed to working on the MR. I told you that you cannot afford to trust a WW when there is no verification to back up what she is really doing. Even when the M reconciles and she ends the A and agrees to NC ever again with OM..... there needs to be a lengthy period of transparency. Starsky used to call it, "Trust, but verify". That means you have something that can verify what's going on with her. Most people rely on some sort of tech device as a way to verify, until enough time passes and she has earned your full trust.........b/c her word and actions lined up with the verification. The problem was.......you took down your source of intell, before she made any such changes.
You stayed in a constant emotional stew, b/c you said that since you had removed the surveillance, you had no way of knowing if she was seeing OM and if she was just playing games with you. Therefore, under those circumstances, I did suggest you consider putting the surveillance back up, if your real holdback was not knowing if she was still seeing OM.
Here's the thing, Jim. Without going into the negative sides of snooping, I'll just say that it's not something every person is equipped to handle, and can be difficult erasing from their minds.....even after reconciliation. You took down the surveillance, not b/c she proved she was not seeing the OM.........
but rather to convince yourself to trust her on unmerited grounds. I have seen H's decide they will just start trusting their cheating, lying, wayward, wife......and they are
delusional. I was concerned this was exactly what you were doing when you took down the surveillance. As shown throughout your posts, you were not able to rest in the uncertainty of not knowing. You were spinning & spinning and getting nowhere b/c you had no transparency plan, and she had not agreeded to one. That's when I told you that you had taken down the surveillance too early. I mean, you continued to say it was a deal breaker if she dishonored your boundary. And, she wasn't likely going to tell you the truth if she was still seeing him. Rather than going out of your mind not knowing where you stood, and seemingly paralyzed from what steps to take next.............I thought it would have made more sense if you had left up the surveillance. I thought it would beat you pretending as if your MR was in a transparency period, when you had nothing that said you were.
But.........here you are, still spinning and basically saying the same stuff. So, apparently, it did not give you the answers you needed?
AT THAT POINT, I thanked her for answering me truthfully, said "I'm walking home", got out of the car aND did just that (3 miles, nice walk.) She broke into tears, said "please just ride back to house" but I said no and got out. She got out of car and called to me but I didn't look back.
Bingo, there's Jim...
That's the attitude you need to keep with you for the next few weeks. no R talks for two weeks, can you do that?
Thanks, Sandi, but...
Okay, now that you've had your "I told you so" and beat me up a little bit about ONE sentence I posted... what... a week ago(?) do you have anything else to offer based on current events? Alot has happened since then. Don't quite see how I am "spinning" in the same uncertainty. Seems to me the uncertainty has been removed.
Or how I am "still saying the same things". You talking about the fact that I choose to see some small glimmer of hope in the fact that she, at least partially on her own, chose to admit to some stuff rather than denying everything to the end as most WWs do? Yeah, I will take that as a SMALL sign, as I said, that in the FUTURE their may be some hope for her to break free of this and find her way back. But that is IT. Nothing about it being a basis for me trusting her now.
Been dodging texts and phone calls/ voice mails (some tearful) from this woman all day. I've got two kids at home with special needs, one profound, and the other one getting to go off to college. All as I start to take the steps that will be as likely to end my marriage as they are to save it. All things considered I think Im holding things together remarkably well.
And, yes, you can interpret all that as a little snarky.
All as I start to take the steps that will be as likely to end my marriage as they are to save it.
Jim, wrap your head around the fact that her A was the step that will likely end your M... The advice you're getting here is to become the man only a fool would leave, so you can save your M.
no R talks for two weeks, can you do that?
If she remains unrepentant, temp-checking, crumb-tossing etc.? Absolutely. And I think that that is by far the most likely scenario based on what I am seeing with todays happenings-- she's reaching out to me by phone/text, like she's done in past when she's effed up to try to butter me up, she's left messages about how she wants to go to son's orientation, now (she knew I was concerned about her staying "home alone") which she was not previously going to do because she is pretty muhch out of work leave, and saying things like "I've really been thinking alot about you" and "I am sorry I hurt you". Blech!
What I suppose is an outside possibility is that she gets jolted into some sort of action sooner than anticipated if I can maintain this distance/separation. If she came to me, say, tomorrow, in tears as I was leaving house and promised me the world, "Ill do anything" or "What can I do, just tell me", not sure how I'd respond. TODAY my response would likely be "Im not sure there's ANYTHING you could do." And Im not. How can you ever start trusting a WW who has twice promised and then failed to deliver? (And this was no one-time slip up... the contacts she detailed, while none "in person", at least that she confessed although I now have strong suspicions about the beach, were numerous and somewhat involved over the course of the past 2-3 weeks. This was very deliberate and premeditated conduct)
Jim,
She is carrying on an A. It is clear as day. I am sorry. Will she just cut it cold turkey? Well, she didn't the first 2 times. She can say a whole bunch of words, but they shouldn't really mean anything right now. You told her what you needed, didn't you? ANd she could not/would not deliver. She is clever and knows exactly what she is doing. She is getting you back on the hook.
You need to show her action you are serious, and she needs to show you action she is serious. Neither is doing that right now. So I would stay no R talks would be smart for a while. Even if she wants them. Tell her "sorry, I am not ready to discuss this".
What coconut said is very true. You are acting on such fear your M will end that you cannot drop the rope and you will take anything she says and make it into her trying. Her A and unwillingness will end the marriage. Not you having some self respect.