Hello All,
previous thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2745440#Post2745440Again I thank you for your input but we need to be aware that in the UK WE HAVE TO support the WW if we have children with them WE HAVE NO CHOICE!
"Emotionally support" is part of a process of showing her that I am her best option if her A does come to a conclusion, I'm not saying I go to her and beg, plead or any of that in fact I don't go to her at all. When she initiates a conversation I just stay friendly and basically listen to her in a way I hope she recognises from our days when we were just starting out! Please remember I truly feel people wont give up something to go to something worse.
The whole issue of me validating her when she mentioned that she was doing all the work around the FH was to a degree to outline that this AP/LO is not much of a help to her! Not the kind of person to rely on BUT this is maybe what she likes about him (as sandi2 says not a nice guy) who knows...
"It is here I made the mistake when I said "I thought you were moving anyway", the response was for her to go into asking about the future and how she needed to know the best course of action for her to consolidate all of our debt! I know this is a subject I need to stay away from as the big D word rears it's head." I prefer to stay away from this subject totally and rightly or wrongly try to resolve the problems that I'm facing. But of course I'm not in any control of this I won't file but if and when she does I will then obviously do what's necessary to bring this to a conclusion but as of now I continue to fight for my M.
"This is what I've been trying to tell you all along, all these "strategies" to get her back are just setting yourself up for failure. You're 100% focused on W when you should be focused on YOU. Work on yourself and quit trying so hard to be her best friend. Read "No More Mr. Nice Guy", I think it'll really hit home for you. It's not what the title sounds like, it's more of a look into the "nice guy syndrome" and how most "nice guys" are really quite controlling and manipulative. It was a real eye-opener for me." I have read and re-read Sandi2 posts and understand what she say's but I feel what she is saying has nothing to do with being
"manipulative and controlling" nice guys don't do this, I see it more about the lack of respect the WW has due to the BH being there to allow her to wipe her feet on him. Sorry all I've been telling you all along I'm DR'ing as best I can!
1. Moved out of the FH -
"You're not making yourself attractive to her. Attractive is strong, confident, independent." how more stronger can I be than to leave my boys at the FH with her? Took great strength, independent..! Not sure you can comment on how confident I am but believe me I have no issues here, how do my posts come across?
2. Detached - Smart contact (SC) no texts, emails or phone calls AT ALL EVER sorry to shout but.
3. GAL - last night Thursday being a perfect example of many since BD and getting better.
4. No pursuing - I never initiate anything at all, I'm there if she wants to talk to me but is all very business like and over in minutes.
5. Cheerleading/Validating - this is only used AFTER she starts the conversation and then only if I feel the R benefits from me doing it.
I continue to work on me FOR ME, I work on my P.I.E.S and be the best me I can. The problem is I L my WW and want to be M to her! But I won't accept what she's doing EVER and if that means the end result is D then so be it.
look I appreciate your concerns for my situation and I truly feel you are wanting to point me in the right direction and I thank you, each day little by little the whole outlook of my situation is changing and I feel the continued journaling as the months go by will highlight this fact. My methods probably will lead me to a very long road that more than likely won't bare the result I want but it's the choice I take. I am listening and trying to implement elements from all of your advice, again I feel as time goes by I will care less about how this ends up because I'll be too busy GAL to notice.
Thank you again and please stay with me.
Mark.
You told her you would continue to support her emotionally and financially while she is living in YOUR home with OM.
I am sorry, but I am going to be blunt here. You aren't making yourself look like the best option. They are probably kicking back with a bottle of wine in YOUR home laughing at how you are supporting their lifestyle.
I am sorry, but leaving the family home was not the "strong" option. Unless you had to do it for yourself because you couldn't live with her. You did that because you hoped she would see what a good guy you are by leaving the house and letting her have what she wants.
I know you are trying, but you have a defensive remark regarding everyone's advice trying to prove you are going about this the right way. Listen to what these people are telling you, they are trying to help.
Mark
Everyone is free to take the approach to saving their m that they want, and to do their best. I know you are in pain and I'm so sorry that you are.
But your approach is just Not a DivorceBusting approach that you're taking and you're on this site telling us all that it is. That it is all of us who just don't get it. You are not the first DB guy from the UK either.
Anyhow, do as you will. God knows I wish you the best.
Please, take a deep breath, then...
Listen to what these people are telling you, they are trying to help.
Please, do it
"Emotionally support" is part of a process of showing her that I am her best option if her A does come to a conclusion
I understand, and DBing is all about listening and validating. My comment was specifically about you validating her comments about her home life with OM, just do not ever do that again in the future. You do not want to pander to her when it comes to OM, because that's being a doormat and no one finds a doormat attractive.
but I feel what she is saying has nothing to do with being "manipulative and controlling" nice guys don't do this
I'm a reformed "nice guy" so take it from me, we ARE controlling and manipulative. Heck when I read your posts here you are trying to control and manipulate US!!!! You don't see it, but we do. And this is EXACTLY the problem with "nice guy syndrome"- nice guys are controlling and manipulative but -think- they are not, and they spend all their time trying to convince others that what they are doing is the best course of action (does that sound familiar to you?) They can't break out of their problem because they don't think there is a problem with themselves. Just please, read the book. For me it was like someone held a mirror up and what I saw reflected was not good. I did 180's on that crap, and even now years later I'm still checking myself on that behavior. I have a feeling NGS is a lot of the reason you are here today.
1. Moved out of the FH - "You're not making yourself attractive to her. Attractive is strong, confident, independent." how more stronger can I be than to leave my boys at the FH with her?
Let me ask you, if you were on the outside looking in at someone else, and you saw some guy dropping his sons off at his former home with his CURRENT wife and her live-in affair partner, would you say "wow that guy is strong, confident and independent!" Because I would say "wow, that guy needs to grow a pair." I'm frankly a little shocked that would think that THAT is a show of strength to your W! A strong person never would have left the home to begin with. They would have said "W, if you're going to pursue this A then you need to leave." I'm not trying to beat you up over what you've done, just help you see what your approach needs to be in the future.
When I met my W, I worked out, rode motorcycles, played sports, built hot rods, would leave on a moment's notice to ride to the beach for the weekend (called it "gonzo traveling"), went canoing and slept in a tent, etc. THAT was the guy she was attracted to, not some super sensitive father type. When W left me and I turned into a quivering mess, everyone here said "you need to get back in touch with who you once were." I realized I had lost touch with that "rebel" I once was and had turned into a domestic guy mowing the yard, doing laundry, mopping floors, commuting to my white collar job every day. THAT IS NOT ATTRACTIVE. I mean sure, women admire and respect a guy that gets stuff done at home. But what I am saying is that is not the sort of thing that gets them excited, makes them think about you when you're not around, makes them fantasize about you. By the way I did follow everyone's advice and got back in touch with who I once was, but I have the benefit of being older and wiser now so I can be sophisticated, domestic AND a "bad boy". I have a very young, very attractive girlfriend that is nuts about me, and I'm sure a lot of that is because of my changed attitude.
Ginger1,
I don't mind you being blunt so will I.
Do you live in the UK? If so you will know that it doesn't matter if she's hitched up with a multi-millionaire I STILL HAVE TO SUPPORT HER FINACIALLY IF CHILDREN ARE INVOLVED.
"I am sorry, but leaving the family home was not the "strong" option. Unless you had to do it for yourself because you couldn't live with her. You did that because you hoped she would see what a good guy you are by leaving the house and letting her have what she wants."
In my previous post you'll see that I could no longer continue to live with her whilst she was in an A due to the mental torture I and my children we being put through (don't dare come between a WW and her AP/LO whilst in phase 1 of limerence - infatuation), this is classic boundary setting - she would not leave so I had to! Unfortunately the UK seems to favour the wife/mother irrelevant of the circumstances but this is slowly changing.
If I'm coming across as defensive I apologise but feel I'm not putting my situation across too well. I'm not saying I strictly adhere to the DR book BUT I continue to manage my situation the best I can.
"You aren't making yourself look like the best option" I disagree, this doesn't really matter anyway due to the fact she ONLY see's her AP/LO at the moment BUT in a previous post you will see other people are seeing my improvements so something is working well. Again I'm not suggesting IF and when she or he come to their senses she will come back to the F and our M BUT I am suggesting I will continue to work on me for me and use the added bonus of me having been the consistent friendly safe place for her to begin again if that's what she wants. We are DB'ing aren't we..?
"I know you are trying, but you have a defensive remark regarding everyone's advice trying to prove you are going about this the right way. Listen to what these people are telling you, they are trying to help." again sorry to be defensive but I have never said my "way" is the right way but the one I choose to adopt, one that is based on DR'ing and the limerent process.
I again appreciate your comments and apologise for being defensive.
Take care.
Mark.
Mark,
Ginger is right, I have a friend who recorded conversations between his wife and OM mocking him for roughly the same things you are doing.
I know this $hit is hard as h3ll because you feel like your entire world is crumbling around you.
You think that being supportive and nice is the right think to do, especially if you feel your actions in the marriage pushed her into the affair.
You think that if you show her how much you love her that you will always be there for her that she will come to her senses and say "WTF was I thinking"? Unfortunately, that BS only works in today's movies.
Do you think Clint Eastwood, James Bond or James Dean would say something like that while their wife's were in extremely open affairs?
I understand your point of not wanting to close any doors and being the lighthouse but you can do that while also being firm and communicating that you will not be treated this way.
I will end this with a story in which my best friend who wasn't married but lived with the mother of his two kids had an affair with a woman at work. The woman at work D her husband and dated my friend for 3 years. The minute her ex-husband started to move on with his life and starting dating another woman, my bf's girlfriend left him and went back and remarried her H and they are still married 10 years later.
I have been on these boards for many years, more than my signature says. You actually went and gave an explanation for everything again. That's what I mean by defensive. I can't begin to tell you how many times on here posters say "but I don't think I am putting my situation across clearly" Yes you are. My advice does not change, and if you can see AS posted the same thing I did. Many posters have posted the same thing. I highly doubt we aren't all wrong and seeing things unclearly.
Here, mull over this.... You directly told her you would "emotionally and financially support her" So, if it's the law in the UK, you didn't have to say a thing.......
A wise person once said " listen to understand, not to respond"
You'll get there when you are ready
Hi Mark
Sorry I haven't read all your thread and I would like to before I pass comment. I just wanted you to know I am also in the UK and in the very early stages of similar situation to you (I am the W and my H is in love with another W) and we have two children. He is still living in the house but openly carrying on the A.
As I said it was just to let you know that I am in the UK so on the same time frame I know it can be frustrating here when you want some support but it's the middle of the night in the US.
The only thing I would say is I've been here before 15 years ago that ended in D but it was my choosing in the end and the support I received on this website is what I have to thank for getting me to that point.
Once I've read your thread perhaps we can catch up some more.
SJ
Sorry All,
I don't seem to be able to get across how I see my situation and how I'm managing it, sorry my fault, I'm in this to gain my M back. I could go back over all the working on me for me, the detachment, the no contact and the GAL'ing that I'm doing I just don't think what I type is coming across as DR'ing and it saddens me.
I'm going to take some time away to digest these responses to be brutally honest I'm feeling I need to be defensive and that's not the reason I came to these boards.
Take care all I hope the best for you.
Mark.
Why do you feel the need to be defensive?
What is the reason you came to these boards?
If it's just to support your choices, then say so. Then we know where you stand.
If it's to save your M and yourself, sometimes you'll have to listen, digest, and make changes.
Posters post for free, especially the vets,on their own time all with a common goal, to help others. Sometimes we tell people what they don't want to hear but need to hear to help them accomplish a goal.
You can take that personally, or you can really take the time to understand because you have a group of strangers who want to help you achieve your goals.
When I met my W, I worked out, rode motorcycles, played sports, built hot rods, would leave on a moment's notice to ride to the beach for the weekend (called it "gonzo traveling"), went canoing and slept in a tent, etc. THAT was the guy she was attracted to, not some super sensitive father type. When W left me and I turned into a quivering mess, everyone here said "you need to get back in touch with who you once were." I realized I had lost touch with that "rebel" I once was and had turned into a domestic guy mowing the yard, doing laundry, mopping floors, commuting to my white collar job every day. THAT IS NOT ATTRACTIVE. I mean sure, women admire and respect a guy that gets stuff done at home. But what I am saying is that is not the sort of thing that gets them excited, makes them think about you when you're not around, makes them fantasize about you. By the way I did follow everyone's advice and got back in touch with who I once was, but I have the benefit of being older and wiser now so I can be sophisticated, domestic AND a "bad boy". I have a very young, very attractive girlfriend that is nuts about me, and I'm sure a lot of that is because of my changed attitude.
YES!!!
You can't nice them back, my man. Your course is putting you on the path to D. I believe that whole-heartedly. I too once tried to nice my cheating wife back. Didn't work. Once I realized I deserved so much better, found my strength, stopped putting up with her sh*t, and made plans to move on without her and have a great life, man that changed everything. I went from pursuer to pursued. If you're the man of any lady's dreams then you'll be the man of her dreams.
Man look at the two posts above me, I know I surely needed to hear that! My wife has told me months ago where did the Dale I met go. I became wild in a good way to Mr Geeky CPA with no life. Not saying you are doing this btw.
Also when I drink I start talking with a English accent and use the word bloody a lot! haha Figured Id break up the seriousness for a second!
And park about my message above, that was not to be offensive. Hope you don't take it that way. While it is true, figured I would lighten the mood when a lot of the messages, including mine are sad and somber.
My advice does not change, and if you can see AS posted the same thing I did. Many posters have posted the same thing. I highly doubt we aren't all wrong and seeing things unclearly.
Often I will open a window and type a response while doing other things at work, so it can take me an hour or more to finally finish and send my response due to interruptions. Sometimes someone else has posted something in the meantime, as was the case this time with Ginger and 25. I did not see their posts until after I had sent mine. Which is to say, I wasn't repeating what they said, we were saying pretty much the same things separately. Why? Because you ain't the first cowboy we've watched in this rodeo
Here's the best advice I can offer you right now- just stop everything you're doing and wipe the slate clean. Quit thinking you've got it all figured out. Forget strategies. Empty your mind. Take a couple of days to do that. Then....
START WITH A BEGINNER'S MIND:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=163492How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?
How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?!
If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?
What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?
What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?!
What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?
If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?
Now, empty your minds, and let's begin!!
A wise person once said " listen to understand, not to respond"
I LOVE THAT!!! I need to remind myself of that.
I really needed to read these comments. Because W likes the nicer version of me. But I was never this extra nice guy and she fell in love with me. So being nice alone will not do it. I need to get back to the old me. The person was before I became a H and father. That person was bold and could careless if anyone wanted to leave him, because I had a philosophy that there were so many other women available. My issue is that I allowed time and comfort kill the person I was once was. All my GAL's have consisted of doing things I enjoy. But their all safe and peaceful. I need to go out, party and really enjoy myself. Come home with some real good stories...lol
I really needed to read these comments. Because W likes the nicer version of me. But I was never this extra nice guy and she fell in love with me. So being nice alone will not do it. I need to get back to the old me. The person was before I became a H and father. That person was bold and could careless if anyone wanted to leave him, because I had a philosophy that there were so many other women available. My issue is that I allowed time and comfort kill the person I was once was. All my GAL's have consisted of doing things I enjoy. But their all safe and peaceful. I need to go out, party and really enjoy myself. Come home with some real good stories...lol
I mean that's really what married life is- settling down, having kids, creating a comfortable domestic environment, focusing on the family instead of ourselves, etc. It's ironic to me that we basically sacrifice our old self for the sake of the marriage and then later on get penalized with a BD for not being our "attractive" old selves anymore, LOL! So yeah, we need to get back in touch with who we were.
You weren't rude or mean to her before, but you were no doubt a lot more independent. You were happy with yourself and your life whether she (or anyone else) was a part of it or not. You took care of yourself and your appearance. Get back in touch with those attributes, and do it for you, not for her.
Years ago someone here used to post a Youtube clip that was from some movie, it was two guys having a convo about BD. I'm going from memory but one guy says to the other something like:
"So let me get this straight, if I want her back I have to act like I don't want her back, I have to be strong and independent. But I can't really just act, because if I do she'll know it's just an act and won't come back. So I really have to not care, because if I don't care about her then she will want to come back. Is that right?"
"Yeah, that's it!"
Wish I knew what movie it was from because I never did see it. Anyway, the point being that you not only have to find yourself, but you have to get to the point where you're doing it all for YOU and not for HER. Because as long as you do it for her it's just tricks to get her back and she'll see through that.
From Swingers
Mike:
Okay, so what if I don't want to give up on her?
Rob:
You don't call.
Mike:
But you said I don't call if I wanted to give up on her.
Rob:
Right.
Mike:
So I don't call either way?
Rob:
Right.
Mike:
So what's the difference?
Rob:
There is no difference right now. See, Mike, the only difference between giving up and not giving up is if you take her back when she wants to come back. But you can't do anything to make her want to come back. In fact, you can only do stuff to make her not want to come back.
Mike:
So the only difference is if I forget about her or just pretend to forget about her?
Rob:
Right.
Mike:
Well that [censored].
Rob:
Yeah, it [censored].
Mike:
So it's just like a retroactive decision, then? I mean I could, like, forget about her and then when she comes back make like I just pretended to forget about her?
Rob:
Right. Although probably more likely the opposite.
Mike:
What do you mean?
Rob:
I mean at first you're going to pretend to forget about her, you'll not call her, I don't know, whatever... but then eventually, you really will forget about her.
Mike:
Well what if she comes back first?
Rob:
Mmmm... see, that's the thing, is somehow they know not to come back until you really forget.
Mike:
There's the rub.
Rob:
There's the rub.
Hahaha! Thank you sir! I'm going to write that down on my "must see" list right now
From Swingers
Mike:
Okay, so what if I don't want to give up on her?
Rob:
You don't call.
Mike:
But you said I don't call if I wanted to give up on her.
Rob:
Right.
Mike:
So I don't call either way?
Rob:
Right.
Mike:
So what's the difference?
Rob:
There is no difference right now. See, Mike, the only difference between giving up and not giving up is if you take her back when she wants to come back. But you can't do anything to make her want to come back. In fact, you can only do stuff to make her not want to come back.
Mike:
So the only difference is if I forget about her or just pretend to forget about her?
Rob:
Right.
Mike:
Well that [censored].
Rob:
Yeah, it [censored].
Mike:
So it's just like a retroactive decision, then? I mean I could, like, forget about her and then when she comes back make like I just pretended to forget about her?
Rob:
Right. Although probably more likely the opposite.
Mike:
What do you mean?
Rob:
I mean at first you're going to pretend to forget about her, you'll not call her, I don't know, whatever... but then eventually, you really will forget about her.
Mike:
Well what if she comes back first?
Rob:
Mmmm... see, that's the thing, is somehow they know not to come back until you really forget.
Mike:
There's the rub.
Rob:
There's the rub.
^^^ must go on the "detachment" list. 
Hello All,
Seems quite an apt time to post an update given where the thread as gone to.
Last night I agreed to pick my S10 up from his school disco and take him back to the family home. One of the boundaries I have put in place is that I NEVER come into contact with the AP/LO for obvious reasons, anyway whilst I was dropping him off I noticed two soccer (football to us in the UK) trophies on the window ledge. Now whilst I was there all of my trophies ended up in the shed (not enough room to display) BUT could have displayed the really important one's!
Unfortunately I took offence at this and it all kicked off with all of the DR'ing and strategies thrown out of the window. Everything that I know we shouldn't do I did and I'm so disappointed in myself.
The crux of it was for my WW and myself talking about no contact at all which I instigated and so now I will no longer have any contact with her. Also due to me GALing better she got it into her head that I was seeing someone, I never confirmed or denied this and charged neutral at this point.
As you can imagine this is TOTALLY different to how I would want to handle this situation but as I mentioned before I knew it would evolve as darker days had to be prepared for.
I will continue to do what I have done and see this episode as a bad day at the office BUT will stay true to the words I said last night and totally detach from her and manage the visitation issues as best I can.
Thanks for reading and take care.
Mark.
Good to see you back parkema, thought you had abandoned the board. Just continue to vent here. Even if you don't agree on the advice given to you.
We all screw up occasionally cause we are action on emotions. And those are hard to control. But to quote one of the legends here on screwing up: "get up, dust yourself off, move forward"
Hi Mark
Hope you're OK. We all have bad days and are sometimes pushed to places we don't want to go but you're right pick yourself up dust yourself down and get back to it.
Take care
SJ
Hi SJ
thanks, it amazed me how this turned out I thought I was better than this but what I saw hit a nerve.. I basically dropped my boy off and she knew I'd be at the door and there they were she knew I'd see them!
Like my report card said "must try harder".
I hope you're coping well and thanks for your response..
Take care.
Mark..
Hey hun
Not sure if you've had time to catch up on my post but I absolutely lost the plot last Friday night and I mean the whole screaming banshee, throwing clothes out of the wardrobe, throwing cases at him then broke down into a quivering mess as he left. No good and I'm not proud but my God did he press my buttons that night. This is an on going uphill battle but with the support here and friends and focusing on ourselves and our kids we can do this and we will come out on top with or without them.
SJ
anyway whilst I was dropping him off I noticed two soccer (football to us in the UK) trophies on the window ledge. Now whilst I was there all of my trophies ended up in the shed (not enough room to display) BUT could have displayed the really important one's!
So I'm assuming these are OM's trophies? Well that was a jerk move on her part for sure. It's amazing how things the WAS found fault with in the LBS are no problem at all when it comes to the OP who can seemingly do no wrong. Anyway, sorry it triggers the dust-up but all you can do is learn from it and move forward!
The crux of it was for my WW and myself talking about no contact at all which I instigated and so now I will no longer have any contact with her.
That's really what you both need anyway- some time and space. Sometimes something like this has to happen before we finally "get it" and detach.
Also due to me GALing better she got it into her head that I was seeing someone, I never confirmed or denied this and charged neutral at this point.
Huh, that's strange. Probably gaslighting.
I will continue to do what I have done and see this episode as a bad day at the office BUT will stay true to the words I said last night and totally detach from her and manage the visitation issues as best I can.
Great attitude!
Hi SJ
I understand these people who are no longer the person you fell for can be masters of manipulation and as you say know exactly how to bring out the worst in us. I know you'll show him what an idiot he is when he sees you going out enjoying yourself and this for me is key.
I started somewhat centred on my WW but as time goes on and the situation evolves I'm getting more and more focuses on me and my boys just enjoying being with them and getting out.
Eventually our WS will start to see their AP/LO for what they really are but by then will it be too late..?
I'm going to continue to fight for my marriage and my W because I love her as much as I ever have and don't want anybody to say to me I didn't try everything to save my marriage BUT will continue to get out and enjoy myself.
GAL
No contact unless she initiates.
Work on myself P.I.E.S
No pursuing
But again I will always show her at every opportunity that I'm her friend and a safe place IF she needs it which she will when their world comes crashing down..
Look after yourself I'm here for you.
Mark.
Thanks AS,
Disappointed I lowered myself. It will be interesting how long she'll stay away but it's stopped the cake eating and now she has to rely on the AP for all of her emotional needs where I feel she was getting from me to a degree.
Don't get me wrong I'll always be there for her and talk like a friend and continue to be her safe place BUT feel the detaching as been stepped up a notch and looking forward will make dealing with each day a little easier knowing that there MUST be a reason for her to come to me whether it be temperature checking or the start of any reconciliation.
It will be hard as there will always be some contact when drop off pick ups happen but these will only be a matter of seconds now instead of minutes.
What sticks with me are those trophies taking pride of place in MY house unbelievable and its only been 7-months!
Thanks for the continued support.
Mark.
Hi Mark
Your W sounds very similar to my H although further down the line and they do like to feel that they've got you hanging in the wings. Sounds like you're doing really good. Ok you had a blip but you picked yourself up, put it down to experience and got back on the bike. How old are you kids? Did I read that you ride motorbikes?
SJ
Hi SJ,
Believe it or not I have two sons S10 and the other celebrating his 8th birthday next Sunday. I rode bikes in a previous life but not now I'd kill myself LOL, basically football for me and gym each day.
I've also found hiking now and intend to have nights away doing interesting walks in the UK and enjoy the spa of the hotel once completed. I find walking is great for depression in fact I can't really say depression as hit me at all yet. I walk everywhere, you should try it.
Thanks for keeping in touch.
Mark.
I started somewhat centred on my WW but as time goes on and the situation evolves I'm getting more and more focuses on me and my boys just enjoying being with them and getting out.
Glad to see you back. This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is what I think some of the posters wanted you to get.
You may face times where you are tempted to rescue your WW, when her fantasy begins to crumble. Sometimes, the WW has to see what she has lost, in order for the reality to hit her that she has caused this mess and she has to live with the results.
I realize you want to remain as a "safe place" for her, and I will not try to pressure you to change your mind. Just be aware that she will probably temp check you to see how emotionally attached you really are. We have seen some crazy scenes played out from WW's who were temp checking their BH's. The first time she and OM have a fight, she'll turn to you for comfort. How will you handle it? B/c they will make up and she'll take him back.
Your backslide only proves you are human, with all the emotions that pop up in these type of situations. It is terrible that she has the OM living in the family home and shoving it in your face. This same stitch happened with one of my adult children, and the emotional toll is about more than a person can handle. So, I admire those betrayed spouses who are able to move forward and build another life for themselves.
Hi Sandi2,
Yes I'm beginning to detach better it just feels so counterproductive, almost like "I give up here you can have her!"
I do the safe place thing because I L her, I cant really be cold and unresponsive to her BUT I'm not going chasing either.
I appreciate your comments on the first argument and at this present time feel I might just laugh out loud, somewhat prepared for this as I believe in the limerent process but am no fool.
Detachment is getting easier and as long as I can continue to see my boys then I will be able to cope with the rest. I am now having to prepare myself for her taking them away with the AP/LO on holiday for a few days AND their forward planning of moving out of the family home and into a place of their own!
I'm aware I should not believe anything they say and only half of what they do but it amazes me how totally wrapped up in their A they get as what I'm hearing is just not practical and something my WW would never contemplate without me able to support it. Bound to failure...
Emotionally having to release my boys back to her knowing they are going back to him and S8 so impressionable is hard he's so confused but just need to show him what a proper parent looks like.
Thanks for keeping in touch.
Mark.
Hi Mark
Sorry for the late reply busy weekend with the kids. My S is 10 turns 11 in August so seniors is September, my DO was 8 in April but she's a complete tomboy. I got my VFR400 picked up yesterday to get it running again it's been stood for 3 years never had the time to get out on it with H being away so much and 2 kids and motorbike was from before I met him.
Hope you're OK catch up soon.
SJ
Hi SJ,
We seem to be crossing from post to post.. LOL.
It would seem you now have a great GAL opportunity with the bike, I always knew that the biker community stays strong and you being able to get back involved with help take your mind off your situation and show your WS that your not just about him.
I understand how your two could hinder this slightly (get crash helmets each) and logistically will be tough does S10 take any interest..?
It's great to get the impression you are getting your head around your situation and can to a degree see there is something about you you can now focus on, this will help take your mind off things a little.
I have just caught up on your post and see the way you are managing things taking effect well done.
Take care.
Mark
Hi Mark
As my bike was from my previous life the kids know I have it but aren't really that interested. S is going on about getting a peewee but I can't afford it for one and logistically with everything else he has going on it's not practical. Maybe further down the line if he shows a real interest and I'm back in the biking community who knows.
I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like for you knowing your kids are living with OM I can't even bare to think about a time that my kids might have to spend time with OW. You do sound like you're doing well though and as you say it's about showing them what a great parent looks like.
You didn't say if you had a motorbike or did?
Take care
SJ
Hi SJ,
No, no more bike
Regarding my boys going back to him she knows I don't approve (these are the most heated conversations I have with her) BUT what can I do? I could go to the court for injunctions and may still do this BUT I feel they need to feel what life will be like under these circumstances allowing reality to kick in and it will if my S10 as anything to do with it.
Me showing WW a great father compared to this strangers interaction to them shows her another reason why what she is doing is totally unacceptable BUT she just doesn't see this at the moment and am sure she thinks it's going to be all "happy families" and rainbows and unicorns... Only time will tell and by then I won't be bothered how this ends up as I'll be too busy GAL with my boys and friends/family.
Good to talk.
Mark.
You're absolutely right about the "happy families" but the reality is completely different. Keep doing what you're doing and who knows maybe you will get another bike :-)
Hi SJ,
Unfortunately for us UK dads I don't think I'll ever be able to afford another bike! Running two homes and giving WW 20% my wage is hurting, grossly unfair BUT will support my family always.
Be good.
Mark.
Hi Mark
How come you're running 2 homes? I haven't looked into financials yet although I need to as he's not happy about what money he had left out of his wages. He had about the same as me and has no living expenses! I thought you just had to pay maintenance?
Thanks
SJ
SJ,
You're right BUT also as I've had to move out of the family home and into my own rented home am in essence running two homes and as we know renting is massively more expensive than a mortgage. My next move I feel...
Mark.
Hello All,
Since my last update nothing much has happened, the contact has become non-existent and when she does initiate contact it's usually just a "hello" as she picks the boys up from me.
When it's my turn to have the boys stay over WW now facetimes them I have gotten into a routine where I isolate them when this happens. So far I have seen no improvement with her wanting to pursue but it is still relatively early, I am slowly adjusting to the fact that our M will more than likely not R and am learning to adapt to the situation.
Getting out more and exercising daily is helping and the thoughts are becoming less and less. It's becoming a fight me wanting to continue to work on my M or just to cut it loose and concentrate on the boys and me BUT I'm not a quitter and not fighting for my M feels like quitting...
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. Again I re-read this and say to myself "Mark give it another year". I'm not interested in another R as I still deeply L my WW so can continue to detach, work on myself and get out more whilst being a great father and this is what I intend to do.
I'd like to ask for input from other's that have looked at themselves to see what made the M turn bad and what they did to improve it/them. I feel now that I have all this free time I should be looking at the core problem with me and my R with the WW and continue to improve me for my next chapter whether with my W or someone else.
With patience and focus I know either way I'll come out stronger and knowing that limerence MUST come to and end can stand back and watch their R go down the pan.
Take care all.
Mark.
I'd like to ask for input from other's that have looked at themselves to see what made the M turn bad and what they did to improve it/them. I feel now that I have all this free time I should be looking at the core problem with me and my R with the WW and continue to improve me for my next chapter whether with my W or someone else.
Hi Mark
I am actually not quite sure what went wrong in my marriage. Life I guess… I’m assuming it was some sort of EA that spun out of control (darn workplaces).
During our summer holiday 2016, 3 months prior to BD, me and XW were walking hand in hand at a camp site in southern Europe and she told me it was a lovely place that we should consider going back to next year. 1 month prior to BD she wanted to spend the rest of her gift money from her 40’th birthday with me (some 7-900 dollars) and around the same time she invited my brother and his family over for new year’s eve (BD was in the middle of November…). The two main problems were probably communication and/regarding household chores, and I don’t think she felt as if I did enough. Problem is, I did enough. She worked evenings 2-3 times per week and left me to take care of the kids (lots of work with 3 kids, aged 3, 8, 9), and off course, I also put in a shift the other days. And it’s not like she put in a ton of work when she had the mornings off to herself.. Actually we hired someone to come clean the house a couple of hours every fortnight.
So the two main problems (which to me they seems fixable) were communication and chores. And those are impossible to work on when she’s not here.
So just like you, I’m more or less just playing the waiting game for limerence to fade. Main problem here, is that OM doesn’t stay at her house when the kids are there. Only visits. So they only play house when she is kiddy free. Which probably makes the expected time span longer than if they were living together.
If it ever ends…. Or I move on (not forward), I’ll update my own thread.
Hi Btrow,
Thanks for your input.
I have ideas where I fell down and have been told by my WW a few things BUT these things are to say the least ridiculous! "You never changed your clothes often enough" WTF, we had an issue with our youngest son and him being insecure he would basically not sleep in his own bed so to get some peace WW would let him sleep in ours. Obviously intimacy took a downward slide BUT I was to blame...
I feel the biggest issue for me was I am the typical "Mr Nice Guy" and Sandi has me down to a tee. It's funny as I manage a large pool of men and being ex-military I can be and have to be very dominant to get anything done! Being separated is making it harder for me to improve on these things BUT having to manage the kids 50% of the time and disciplining them is a change for me as I would have allowed the WW to do this (she is so good at it).
I feel of course that she is also partly to blame; I would do something that irritated her and she would tell me so, I would as most men do blank it out or apologise then retreat to my "man cave" and allow her to calm down. Communication between us was a problem and me doing mostly everything else PLUS a full time job didn't help either.
Luckily most of these things are being worked on by me having to manage on my own without her and I feel NOT being home is taking it's toll on her too as she no longer has that support behind her. It's amazing how she saw all the bad things I did but not all of the good, I feel she is now to a degree...
Regarding the R and the situation you're In I feel this AP/LO is having the time of his life! Again we have some similarity here! There is some interaction between my boys and the AP/LO but he hasn't moved in to the FH why..?
As long has you're detaching and in no contact with her, looking after yourself and the kids that's all you can do! I am slowly learning my lessons here on the boards from those who have lived through it BUT do know the limerence will end but you might be in a more positive place when your WS comes to her senses...
Thanks again, take care.
Mark.
Welcome back Mark! Hope you are doing well!
Since my last update nothing much has happened, the contact has become non-existent and when she does initiate contact it's usually just a "hello" as she picks the boys up from me.
GOOD! That will help you detach and eventually may help her to stat missing you.
I have seen no improvement with her wanting to pursue but it is still relatively early, I am slowly adjusting to the fact that our M will more than likely not R and am learning to adapt to the situation.
Too soon to know what she will do but I do think it's healthy for you to adapt and move on.
It's becoming a fight me wanting to continue to work on my M or just to cut it loose and concentrate on the boys and me BUT I'm not a quitter and not fighting for my M feels like quitting...
In DBing terms, fighting your your M is NOT doing all of the begging/ pleading that you brain is telling you to do. Leaving her alone and giving her time and space is HARD WORK because it is NOT what you want to do! Doing that is NOT quitting! Sometimes not doing anything is the hardest thing of all to do
I'm not interested in another R as I still deeply L my WW so can continue to detach, work on myself and get out more whilst being a great father and this is what I intend to do.
Great attitude! You do that and you will emerge a winner no matter what happens to your M.
I'd like to ask for input from other's that have looked at themselves to see what made the M turn bad and what they did to improve it/them. I feel now that I have all this free time I should be looking at the core problem with me and my R with the WW and continue to improve me for my next chapter whether with my W or someone else.
First of all, we all come here thinking we did something terribly wrong and wanting to know how to "fix" it. Honestly most of us were guilty of nothing more than just becoming too complacent in life. Think about what your W was originally attracted to. What kind of guy were you? You mentioned a military leadership role, so I bet you were strong, in great shape, confident, independent, authoritative. Are you any of those things now? Probably not. And that is NOT your fault, that is life. We get married, we have kids, we take on a new role as loving husband and father. We become dependent on our W's because that is what marriage is supposed to look like, right? We are too busy with careers and kids to work out, to be romantic, to have frequent sex. We pitch in with chores around the house. Our behavior changes from alpha to beta. Our spouse gets bored, and they go looking for that alpha we used to be. This is the whole idea of getting out and GAL, of getting in shape, dressing better, becoming independent. ALL of that is ALPHA. It's about becoming the person she was originally attracted to again. Quit pursuing her, quit being mopey, quit worrying about whether she's coming back. Focus on YOU. You will feel better about yourself, and in the end it may bring her back.
DBing can be summed up as:
Bring her back by not trying to bring her back.
See why we say it's counter-intuitive? LOL!
Hi Stander,
Totally agree with the whole grovelling, begging and whining very unattractive. Being counter-intuitive is so very hard for me to get my head around but can see how it works and am determined to carry on all of the DR'ing.
Thanks for the continued support.
Mark.
Hello All,
Thought I'd do another catch-up!
Struggling with "dropping the rope" , for a person who is renowned as being logical almost to the point of being Vulcan (LOL) I find the counter-intuitiveness of this really hard to understand.
I bow to everybody's knowledge here and will continue to detach as much as I can.
Recently as my previous posts would suggest my WW has been slowly seeing less and less of me and to be honest it really isn’t affecting me as much as I thought it would. I have had a few tests recently regarding visitations but have stood my ground especially as our plan is the fairest unless we participated in a week for each, I know this wouldn’t be agreeable with WW so have reverted to 3-day each week alternating the 7th day.
Having just implementing this it will be interesting to see how it’ll affect her and after the trophy incident where we had a “talk” I’m not sure she will come to my home when I have the boys to spend time with them and instead opt for FaceTime sessions. This will obviously allow the rope to be loosened a little more BUT how can I continue to show her I am invested in our M? This site as I see it gives me the feeling that it’s more catering to prepare for life alone than to fight for the M (right thing to do)! Again I feel maybe it’s that counter-intuitive side of the advice that makes me feel this way.
I am trying to concentrate on gaining my respect back from WW but have been so “programmed” over years of submissiveness that I don’t even recognise when she’s disrespecting me! The other night as WW picked up the boys from my home she mentioned holidays and asked the dates I had booked off, being a bloke caught on the hop I mentioned HER dates as this is playing on my mind due to them having a “family” holiday somewhere booked with the AP/LO and my boys. She basically went alien and vented about me booking the same days, I corrected myself but was then presented with the sarcastic face directed to my S8. I now know I should have taken her to one side and ask her not to do that in front of the boys but she was in the car and about to drive off so missed the opportunity.
At the moment we’re experiencing her on an upward trend on the rollercoaster ride, this is being demonstrated by her coldness and total detachment from me I wonder how long it’ll be before she does a temperature check.
I’m finding it progressively difficult to keep focused on fighting for my M and would welcome some motivating comments…
I continue to:
1. Have “smart contact” – never pursue BUT when approached try to show her the best me whilst being a friend and safe place.
2. GAL – exercising, swimming, soccer and walking a lot, being with the boys having as many days out as my budget can stretch to.
3. Charging neutral – just not that good at it at the moment.
4. Journaling – Sorry for boring you all.
5. Working on me physically, intellectually, emotionally and spiritually.
6. Reading everything I can about WW and A’s.
What’s helping with feelings?
1. Being with the boys – I intend to start reading to them at night just to instil that closeness, anybody know of good books to read for S10 & S8?
2. Listening to music.
3. Comedy – going to comedy clubs is great for GAL.
4. Working.
5. Very close circle of friends who understand why I continue to fight for my M. < very important (no family members).
Thanks for taking the time to read, take care.
Mark.
Struggling with "dropping the rope" , for a person who is renowned as being logical almost to the point of being Vulcan (LOL)
I find the counter-intuitiveness of this really hard to understand.
First of all one of MWD's basics is to start with a beginners mind and not have preconceived ideas in your head that uses "logic" to try to understand this stuff.
Although after much research their is in fact logic here - just not something that most of us learn in our life.
In a nut shell I will try to simply explain.
One of the ingredients into WAS/MLC is that the persons hormones are out of wack.
If you study the science of hormones during a lifetime a woman's estrogen level falls off dramatically at menopause.
It does a 180 so to speak.
Men have something similar with drops in testosterone as life progresses.
There are other hormones involved too but for the sake of simplicity I will stick with this.
So when your body chemistry does a 180 what do you think that does to the rest of you?
So since you are dealing with a person that has done a 180 - normal "LOGIC" is not logical.
Hope that helps - Mr Spock
Cadet,
My situation is that of a WW. NO MLC or WAW she is full blown shout it from the church top having an A. I put this down to chemicals as you would imply but the chemicals involved with limerence...
Thanks live long and prosper.
Parkema
You are not allowed to post the other post on the forum
it is against the TOS to talk about other products, books that are not from DB.
Cadet,
My situation is that of a WW. NO MLC or WAW she is full blown shout it from the church top having an A. I put this down to chemicals as you would imply but the chemicals involved with limerence...
Thanks live long and prosper.
It is still the same explanation just different circumstances.
You still do the same thing.
I agree with Cadet. The chemicals is what prevents your W from seeing that there no logic in her decisions. Everything is just a really good feeling. And feelings alone causes you to make ver y bad life altering decisions.
Cadet,
Apologies for my previous attempts to help others with the "Nice Guy" rules assume due to copyright.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=boardrules&v=1Welcome to the DivorceBusting.com On-Line Community. By posting here you agree to our terms and conditions and agree to abide by the rules and policies detailed below.
This messageboard community is designed to support, encourage, and educate people about Divorce Busting strategies and techniques to help them improve their relationships and save their marriages.
You agree to not post any messages that are defamatory, harassing, abusive, hateful, threatening, or otherwise offensive. Your posts must be polite and considerate. Do not post names, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses, or any confidential or private contact information. You agree not to post any copyrighted material, photos, videos, book references, or links to other sites.
Our administrators and moderators are dedicated to assuring that everyone who comes here is treated with courtesy and respect. You may not always agree with our decisions to delete posts or to ban some members. We reserve our right to do so when we feel necessary, with or without explanation. Although it is impossible to review every post, we will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum. You can always hit "NOTIFY" when you see a post or comment that you feel is objectionable. A Moderator will review and edit if necessary.
We reserve the right to delete, edit, move or close any post or thread for any reason at our sole discretion. We reserve the right to change and/or modify these policies at any time. Changes will be posted here, so please check back and review these rules. We may modify or terminate our services from time to time, for any reason, and without notice. By registering, logging in and participating in this community, you acknowledge, accept and agree to these terms.
Hi Mark
Just thought I'd stop by and see how you're doing? It sounds like your being really strong but you need to make the briefest and limited contact with your W positive. Be the H that nobody would want to leave, you've come this far, you're clearly a fantastic Dad so keep doing what you're doing but let her see it at every opportunity.
SJ
Hi SJ,
Appreciate it.
Thinking I've got this DR'ing down I'm now trying to look into me more and where I feel down in my M, having looked at Sandi's posts and the "Mr Nice Guy syndrome" I'm devouring all information regarding this as Sandi has me down to a "T".
Unfortunately just recently I seem to be the person who can "talk the talk but can't walk the walk"! Detachment is at a point now where my WW and I no longer talk much at all, but when we do I feel she is always testing my resolve and seeing how far I can be pushed.
We have agreed on shared visitation with a 50-50 split but she has for the last 2 chances we've had to talk face-to-face been challenging the schedules. Normally I would buckle and allow her to have her way BUT have stood my ground.
You can imagine the kind of response I've received from her and it was not pleasant doing this in front of the boys...
Unfortunately she pushed all of my buttons and I didn’t do a good job of charging neutral, It wasn’t pretty but I feel she got the point that I no longer will tolerate being treated as I have been for most of my M. To me it’s really hard to be like this as it hurts me to make her feel this way but am beginning to see that almost everything she does is for her and is very selfish. I was really angry with myself for standing my ground but I hope that me doing this is gaining a little more respect from her, I do see her now complying with MY needs more and feel it’s due to me finally getting a backbone.
Not seeing her is worrying me as I feel I can no longer show her the best me trying to remain friendly and her safe place, for me it goes against all logic but am aware by doing this she can no longer cake eat and temperature check to see if I’m a viable contingency if her A starts to go sour. I actually told her today when she called to make sure she had our schedule down set that I didn’t care if I never saw her again where in reality it would hurt a great deal BUT is something I WILL do and give her all the rope they need to hang themselves.
I had a conversation with one of the guys who works with me regarding his R with his XWW, she re-married and now regrets doing this! He who laughs last and all that…
Anyway I will remain dark and just enjoy my time exercising, journaling, reading the posts on here and getting out and about whilst having a great time with the boys.
I hope you continue to do what you’re doing and stay strong don’t let it slip and stay true to DR’ing.
All the best.
Mark.
Hi SJ,
I was really angry with myself for standing my ground but I hope that me doing this is gaining a little more respect from her, I do see her now complying with MY needs more and feel it’s due to me finally getting a backbone.
Why were you angry with yourself for standing your ground? What do you mean by complying with your needs?
Hi LH19,
I suppose I don't like upsetting her as it makes me feel I'm going backwards in showing that "better" person, plus maybe it also pushes her further towards the AP?
Thanks.
Mark.
Mark,
Think about the logic behind your statement. She is in an A and blew up your family and you are worried about upsetting her.
Right now it is what is best for you and the kids.
You don't believe me now but when she is ready to come back you are not going to want her back.
I suppose I don't like upsetting her as it makes me feel I'm going backwards in showing that "better" person, plus maybe it also pushes her further towards the AP?
It's not a contest between you and AP, and if you try to make it one, you'll lose.
Never apologize for being the man you want to be. It takes courage and convictions to set these goals and make these changes.Good on you!
You are right to set boundaries and limits. You have to be steady in your course and maintain them unless something happens that warrants changes.
I suppose I don't like upsetting her as it makes me feel I'm going backwards in showing that "better" person, plus maybe it also pushes her further towards the AP?
It's not a contest between you and AP, and if you try to make it one, you'll lose.
Do not do the "Pick Me" dance.
Hi All,
I hear you, understand she'll never know how I feel and your right each time episodes like these happen it just makes me more hardened to her and maybe when her A goes bad IF it does I might not want anything to do with her.
I don't intend to go back on all my hard work now and not seeing her is making it easier to move on with my life continuing to DR and getting out enjoying myself.
Thanks again.
Mark.
Hello All,
Just venting...WW dropped off boys today after asking me to change our schedule for visitation AGAIN. I now know that there was a possibility that she wanted to play happy families with AP/LO and his children, when I refused due to having plans with the boys arranged she went quiet and I knew something was coming.
As she dropped the boys off she asked me for my keys to the family home back due to her's busting. This really annoyed me as it basically puts a full stop on my involvement back there and feel she's handing them over to him.
She is to pick up the boys later today as it's her turn for them to stay over, I wonder if she got another set cut? I doubt it.
As angry as I am about these things there's nothing much left she can throw at me when she doesn't get her way and each time it helps me drop the rope that little bit more...
Mark,
I don't remember your legal status regarding the family home, but they are just keys. You probably don't need them anyway (right now). Since you are well educated regarding limerence, you knew this was coming. Just a small bump in the road. Small price to pay for standing up for your own boundaries regarding visitation agreements.
Stay strong.
Hi Mark
I'm with Btrow, they are just keys. You are doing a remarkable job. Do the keys affect your R with your boys - no - what else matters. She's in lala land for who knows how long, you my friend are in reality. Don't get upset over the keys that's what she wants a negative reaction. Come on charge neutral!
SJ
Hello All,
I have recently read a thread of someone standing for his marriage for the past 11 years and it really hit home, I’m at a point in my DR’ing where I feel I can’t see a successful resolution to my situation.
For me as anybody knows who’s been keeping up with my sitch a successful resolution would be for my WW and I to reconcile, after 8-months and me having to live separately from my family I don’t see this happening.
In the early stages I found detachment really hard as part of my method for manging this was to be able to show WW a new and improved me doing all MWD would suggest, over the months I have got better at this BUT her R with the AP/LO seems to be getting stronger and stronger. This is very disheartening and wonder if anybody else has noticed this cycle BUT still resulted in reconciliation and piecing of their M?
I have now started looking at myself and where I feel have caused our M to break down.
1. Taking her for granted – basically I felt as most on here would that I would never be in this position so didn’t really work at making her feel happy. I probably detached better whilst in my M than when I’m separated…
2. Intimacy – I can’t believe this but we possibly didn’t get intimate enough! Unfortunately as a Mr Nice Guy I would typically do anything to avoid disappointment and failure, this possibly materialised with me feeling if I intimated sex and she would turn me down I saw that as a failure and this in turn prevented me from taking the lead in the bedroom department. Typically we would have had sex at least once a week and our duvet days were some of the best days of OUR lives!
3. Mr Nice Guy – this is so clear to me now, for example disciplining the boys I would leave to her and she hated being the nasty parent in the R also little things like going to the bar or counter to order and pay, not exactly manly and due to this and others she would feel she had to be the head of the family and in turn challenge me at every opportunity. Respect soon disappeared as well has the love. I have invested a lot of time into this subject and have started a thread on these boards but is quite hard to change habits that have been instilled in me since my Dad died when I was 7.
4. Communication – believe it or not I don’t communicate that well. Anyone who knows the ColourWorks method of people management will understand this: my wife is a yellow person and possibly slightly narcissistic, yellow people are very extrovert and outgoing. I on the other hand am a blue person, cold, calculating and very systematic! As you can see almost chalk and cheese, did she want someone who could “hold a room”?
Don’t get me wrong I hold 50% of the responsibility for our M ending but am in a place where I can rectify my issues and now that you know where I fell down could I ask for your advice as to how I can get better at the above failings?
I continue to:
• Have NC except the drop-off and pick-up times. I never email, text or call unless absolutely necessary (emergencies).
• Work on me physically, intellectually, emotionally and spiritually.
• Smile, basically at EVERY opportunity I emit a friendly, warm welcoming and confident individual who’s happy in his own skin. I will continue to be a safe place for my WW if and when she needs it but don’t see this happening any time soon.
• GAL especially with my children, I walk well hike now a lot and continue to play football every week. Everything else revolves around the boys.
I’m feeling defeated and see no positivity in my situation but know this is not going to happen overnight and patients is key BUT without signs of some kind of improvement I feel totally deflated.
Struggling.
Mark.
For me as anybody knows who’s been keeping up with my sitch a successful resolution would be for my WW and I to reconcile
Here's a bit of a wakeup call Park. Have you read any of the piecing threads? 25? TXHubby? Blu? Storm? Are they and their spouses skipping off into the sunset hand-in-hand? The reality is "getting them back" isn't all it's cracked up to be, especially after an affair. It's almost impossible to rebuilt trust, and the WAS will not just go back to normal, they are not who they were before and never will be again. So in many ways it's trying to build a relationship with a new person, one that's already proven you can't trust them. Obviously the whole purpose of DBing is to save your M, but the reality is you should be trying to save yourself, the M is secondary. If you emerge from this a stronger, better, more independent you then that's a successful resolution. And THAT you is going to have an amazing relationship, maybe with your W or maybe with someone new.
BUT her R with the AP/LO seems to be getting stronger and stronger. This is very disheartening and wonder if anybody else has noticed this cycle BUT still resulted in reconciliation and piecing of their M?
Yes. Some of the personal stories I heard at Retrouvaille were astonishing. Marriages rebuilt after impossible circumstances.
I have now started looking at myself and where I feel have caused our M to break down.
That's all some very good introspection. Nicely done on that list. Now take that and learn from it. Don't look at yourself as a failure, none of us got "husband" lessons before getting married. We can't change what we did or didn't do, but we can learn from it and become better H's for this woman or the next.
I continue to:
• Have NC except the drop-off and pick-up times. I never email, text or call unless absolutely necessary (emergencies).
• Work on me physically, intellectually, emotionally and spiritually.
• Smile, basically at EVERY opportunity I emit a friendly, warm welcoming and confident individual who’s happy in his own skin. I will continue to be a safe place for my WW if and when she needs it but don’t see this happening any time soon.
• GAL especially with my children, I walk well hike now a lot and continue to play football every week. Everything else revolves around the boys.
Great stuff, keep it up!
I’m feeling defeated and see no positivity in my situation but know this is not going to happen overnight and patients is key BUT without signs of some kind of improvement I feel totally deflated.
But YOU are improving. Hopefully you'll get your W back someday, but DBing is about you, becoming the best you that you can be and in the process, at some point you'll stop needing your W. You may still -want- her, but you won't -need- her. You'll get there, just give yourself time.
I don't remember the whole story but why did you move out? Cheaters move out, not loyal spouses.
Hi Tx,
I tried to stay in the family home and told her she should leave but was having none of it and continued to carry out her A in front of me without any remorse or respect for my feelings.
I literally was being systematically tortured mentally every day and had to put a border up for protection which meant me moving out. Hardest thing for me to do due to our kids still living there but at least now they see me 50% of the time BUT with none of the atmosphere...
I see now that this has just made it easier for her to move him in which hasn't happened yet! Don't understand that but it has allowed me to concentrate on the boys whilst not having anything to do with lala land and her moods which were preverlent due to the A and where her head is at at the moment.
I must admit I do feel moving out has just made her life more wonderful and easier to carry on her A, she has the best of both worlds. She can continue to be mum half the week whilst the other half she can be free to carry on with the AP/LO.
You can maybe understand now why I feel so dejected and unmotivated to carry on for what is right and bring my family back together..
Thanks Mark.
You can maybe understand now why I feel so dejected and unmotivated to carry on for what is right and bring my family back together..
Are you sure that's what's "right"? It's not always the case. Focusing on you and your kids, that is always the right thing to do. Restoring a marriage with a cake-eating adulterer, I'm not so sure. Leave her to the mess she is making and reset your goals and focus to that which you have control over.
Hi Mark
Sorry not been about for a few days been so busy and got my Mum here at the kids request so now not getting a minute to myself.
I totally understand why you feel the way you do about making it easy for her but I could argue that by kicking my H out made it easier for him. The bottom line is they are going to do what they are going to do regardless and what we have done is the right thing to protect ourselves and our children. Don't over analyse it just hurts more. You did what was right for you.
Take care
SJ x
Hi All,
I will always fight for my M as its definitely the right thing to do, again I won't have anybody tell me in a years time I didn't do everything I could to restore my M but AS I understand your advice and am using the DR method in doing this and am getting better and better at it.
In the UK now it’s the summer holidays (not much sun but there you go) and as such as you can imagine it’s very hard to deal with any plans the WW has with my 2 boys.
Yesterday my WW and her AP/LO took both my boys to a theme park, now my W rarely goes on these types of rides and I know S10 loves to ride them so my thought was how would this be managed..? As you can guess the AP/LO took him and sat next to him whilst he experienced the exhilaration/fun of the experience, something made perfectly clear when I FaceTimed them later last night to say goodnight as usual.
Don’t get me wrong I understand that both boys are having to live their lives in this situation and are trying to make everybody happy but behind closed doors I feel let down massively!
In a couple of weeks’ time I have to face the fact that they will be going away for 4 nights as a family, I think in a cabin somewhere but either way in close proximity to each other, what really hurts is the face of my boys and how happy they were last night. They are coping with this better than I am and too young to realise that excepting the actions of their mum and what she’s done to their dad is aiding her A IMO. I don’t blame them just hard to take.
The only saving grace I can get from all of this is that eventually guards will come down and the real people will eventually show up, at the moment I feel my W is being the best she can be with him and is expecting my boys to do the same but eventually with time my boys will resent this and start to misbehave. How will the A evolve from there..?
Having just read this back maybe I'm focusing on the A too much but on this occasion it involves my children I naturally think about them all the time.
Thanks for reading.
Mark.
I can't imagine my children meeting any of his skanky women. Thank goodness they are older and have told him that it is not happening.
The only silver lining I could possibly see is that everything that makes the affair more "real" makes it harder to stay in that ridiculous limerent state. Children are tired, cranky, complain, whine. I imagine seeing someone snap at your child or even replace their father might be difficult even for the person who brought all that into existence.
Try to keep some of that lovely hopefulness you came here with, but give it a good dose of reality.
Really sorry Park, that sounds extremely difficult and I do not blame you at all for feeling down about it. It's bad enough to get fired as a husband but it's just adding insult to injury to have your WIFE working so actively to replace you while you're STILL MARRIED. Personally I think that speaks volumes for her complete lack of character. I hope you're coping OK, hang in there buddy!
Hi OwnIt, AS,
Thanks for your support.
As a bloke we don’t tend to have a massive circle of “friends” who we can talk to about this subject and as you know family members tend to be biased against my stance.
I actually feel what WW is doing is helping me in a perverse type of way, if it’s all about dropping the rope well the way she’s treating me is defiantly helping in this regard. I’m having no choice but to stand back and evaluate my life as the direction she is going in does not involve me at all. Is it fortunate OR unfortunate to have children with these type of people (AP has 2 younger S as well) as totally DTR is impossible so I look at it as an advantage, I keep saying to myself “I’m going to get better and better each day and enjoy my life with my boys” I’m determined to show the world the best me and make her regret putting me back out there on the market.
As time goes by I tend not to focus on my situation but as we all know on here we could have gone through this and still standing for years but still these memories will flood our minds. Those are hard times and I don’t mind admitting getting emotional behind closed doors.
I am struggling with my goals at the moment as I get little opportunity to implement or understand how to implement them!
• Maintaining a conversation initiated by her.
• Getting her to notice me getting better and better, a “you look nice” would be amazing. Confidence is king! I MUST be uber confident in myself and smile all the time also being able to stand up for what I believe is right, no more Mr Nice Guy.
• To be acknowledged when leaving, a look and a smile or a wave to me by her would be deemed a success.
Only seeing her at drop-off and pick-up is the challenge, maybe a good goal would be if she was to temperature check the situation – thoughts…
Anyway thanks for being there.
Mark.
Park,
maybe this note I wrote to someone else, will help. They were in a similar "Pick me" dance with their WAS.
They asked how their spouse would notice their changes with so little contact.
1) You have children, so you know you Will have contact with each other, even if it's limited.
EMBRACE the time & space apart, so you can work on yourself.
It's a whole lot harder to GAL and or do 180s and or to just to think and reflect on changes you might want to make, if your WAS/MLCer is there in your face, silently stewing or loudly spewing.
AND - it's much easier for your WAS to notice changes on your end, when they only see you weekly/monthly or rarely.
Weight loss (yeah, the DB diet sure is effective, eh?) or a new hair style or clothing, are easier to notice when you don't see someone on a day to day basis.
New behaviors (being punctual instead of always late, for instance) are more noticeable to someone who only has limited interactions with you b/c they may be scrutinizing you more in those brief exchanges.
2) So you make the most of those interactions. Instead of being nervous (which we all were, trust me) learn to see the interactions as opportunities to demonstrate change on YOUR end.
Don't scrutinize her words or behavior. Do not make her your focus. Have zero expectations that the interaction will lead to anything, then.
YOU are your focus.
You are upbeat in front of the WAS, even if the interchange is 3 minutes...that's all YOU have anyhow, b/c you have to be on your way to the interesting person(s) you're meeting up with and doing fun things with in exciting new places...
This way you won't be posting here about how sad you were that the WAS "Didn't even ask me to join her watching a video/went running” or 'didn't want to come with me..."
3) SO Let her soak in the new you. Meaning, Do NOT expect her to notice AND comment quickly, about a new behavior in you.
There are things about the new you that they will not have figured out yet or come to trust are real and lasting…Plus the typical WAS/MLC is pretty self centered for awhile, so it will take TIME.
APs very distracting & will delay realizations on their end.
Like a ship headed for an iceberg, sometimes the "Get a Divorce NOW!" momentum is hard to redirect or stop.
Again, it takes TIME.
4) SO Make the most of the time. The KEY to Detachment is GAL.
Without GAL, you are very likely to obsess yourself into depression or desperation, and that's not a good place to be. And I know of no other way to DTR or detach, without GAL.
Hi 25yearsmlc,
Thanks’ for your response.
You’ve opened my eyes and helped a great deal, it gives me hope and a course to focus on. I feel recently I’ve been doing the dance and am finally beginning to understand that there’s no point!
Again I truly L my WW and feel it’s right in fighting for my M and our family but need to be cleverer and bow to your experience. I have children and due to this I very often see her but am trying to detach better with no texts, calls or emails at all from me, I don’t pursue her but allow her to visit my boys when they stay over with me this has now evolved into her waiting outside and talking to them in the driveway I of course am nowhere to be seen.
My underlying issue still is the counter-intuitiveness of these actions, I am going to better myself for me and am doing a better job of GAL’ing, keeping fit (you’re right about the DR diet) and being more assertive with everyone but deep down I feel I need to be there for her in times of need. I feel I need to demonstrate that I can still be her best friend and a safe place to come to when she needs it.
I’m a firm believer in that people don’t leave something for something worse and without me demonstrating to her that I am the better option than the AP/LO where’s the draw?
MWD does mention that MOST A’s end in the first 6-months and the statistics I’ve been told favour the BS (only 5% of WS leave their M for another WS) and then are usually D within the first 5 years, but for me it’s how do I go about turning the tide back in favour of the M!
It’s been 8-months now since she says the A started, I moved out of the family home in Feb this year (2017) so feel I’ve still got a lot of time before the WW works through her issues and remembers that what we had wasn’t that bad, does that ever happen… The AP/LO is 5-years her junior and a full 14-years mine married with his own family one being a S4, how does an A affect a male WS is it different than for a female WS?
Anyway I feel I’m spending too much time and energy looking at the A and will take your advice UNTIL she comes to me then my actions will kick in and continue to hope for the best, either way I’m slowly beginning to realise I’ll be better whatever the outcome will be my boys I’m not so sure…
Thanks again.
Mark.
I’m a firm believer in that people don’t leave something for something worse and without me demonstrating to her that I am the better option than the AP/LO where’s the draw?
She has known you for many years. She knows your strengths, your weaknesses, what you stand for etc. Right now with her wayward mindset, all that accounts for nothing, so I doubt there is much you can do to show her that you are the better option. With time she'll remember. Or OM will screw up. When that happens, there will be better opportunities for you to draw her closer to you. There was a great post in Teppos thread a couple of days ago (posted by 2016sux). If you haven't already, go read it.
I spent a lot of time studying the statistics as well, they mean nothing, plus some say 6 months some say 1 year etc etc. But they do however all mention that most affairs actually do die. At some point. Unfortunately all we can do, I think, is wait it out.
Hi Btrow,
Thanks for the point to 2016sux post and it’s a great view on how to look at our situations, I agree with you that she already knows so much about me and also part of me feels hopeful as I also know so much about her!
With that in mind I still don’t see her A faltering any time soon, he’s a co-worker she sees every day I have had to move out and let her carry on with him in the family home and in my bed due to the constant torture imposed on not just me but my boys also.
So she has the perfect world an A half the week when I have my boys and the family life when she gets to have them, why would she give this up..!
Thanks for the response though I really got a lot from 2016sux insight.
Mark.
Mark,
That "I need to be her best friend" bs is beta behavior that you see in today's movies that just doesn't work.
You are doing great job at improving yourself. I have no doubt you are 100% committed to getting your wife back.
The fastest way to do it is to completely let her go and live life for you and your boys.
Be mysterious, be a bad a$$, challenge yourself everyday. Trust me when I tell you she will notice.
Stay strong my friend! Either way you will be fine!
Hi LH19,
Thanks for the pep talk I need as many as I can get, keep me on the straight and narrow.
I totally understand the thinking about the best friend thing and I’m not going to be that person who is trying to be better than the AP/LO it’s just that when she comes calling I’ll just be friendly and validate her, somewhat cheerlead where I feel it necessary.
“The fastest way to do it is to completely let her go and live life for you and your boys.” Yes I see this and will work towards doing this much better as after all it’s the only thing I can do that I actually have control over.
Thanks’ guys I feel I have direction if little hope.
Mark.
I’m a firm believer in that people don’t leave something for something worse and without me demonstrating to her that I am the better option than the AP/LO where’s the draw?
You are wrong there, WAS's almost always "affair down". We've talked about it so much here that it's become a phrase. Why they do it isn't completely clear, but it's probably because they felt neglected in the M so if they "affair down" they find an OP that is so happy to have someone "out of their league" that they jump through hoops for them and make them feel super special.
With that in mind I still don’t see her A faltering any time soon, he’s a co-worker she sees every day I have had to move out and let her carry on with him in the family home and in my bed due to the constant torture imposed on not just me but my boys also.
So she has the perfect world an A half the week when I have my boys and the family life when she gets to have them, why would she give this up..!
You really don't know that. LBS's always imagine the WAS is living a grand life while the LBS is suffering. That's rarely the case, the WAS is usually pretty miserable too. They prop themselves up with flings for the temporary good feelings they offer, but that doesn't mean they're loving life.
Besides, focusing on that does not serve you in any way, shape or form. You need to focus on the amazing life ahead of you! Maybe it's with W or maybe a new woman, but there ARE incredible things in store for you. I can't remember if I posted this in your thread or someone else's a while back, but I love the show Vikings. There's a scene where Rollo is whining to the Seer after he's lost everything and his life is in the pooper. He asks the Seer if it's all over for him. The Seer starts laughing and says "Oh Rollo, if you knew what the gods have in store for you, you would go down right now and dance naked on the beach!" BD, S and D, this stuff isn't the end of our life novel. It closes one chapter and opens another. Don't be afraid to turn the page, if you knew what was in the next chapter you would no doubt WANT to turn the page.
I was in your exact same position. Depressed, sad, beat down. The ONLY solution I could see was to restore my M and put things back to "normal". I wanted that more than I had ever wanted anything in my life. I prayed day and night for that. I did not get what I wanted. I got something better. I have a young, sexy, beautiful girlfriend that thinks the world of me. We go for rides on my Harley, we travel together, we go to haunted houses, renaissance festivals, we go to Six Flags, and yes we have unbelievable, uninhibited, no-holds-barred sex the likes of which I never even imagined until I met her.
I also have a better relationship with my kids than I did before (and it wasn't bad at all before). My son and I have time to ourselves that we call "dude time" where we do stuff together- play video games, watch a movie, race gokarts, etc. My daughters are grown and moved out now but I go visit them and they come visit me.
I am also in better shape than I have been in decades. I eat right now, I do Crossfit 4 or 5 times a week, and I make sure to make some time for my hobbies to keep my mental health up as well.
Do you know what the difference is between me and you? Time and GAL. That's it. I can't stress it enough, I was as low as or lower than you and every other LBS on here. But I dragged my sorry butt out and I GAL'd. It was the hardest thing I've done in my life at first. But I made myself do it. And again, and again until I started enjoying it in spite of myself. Then I started saying "hey if I enjoy this, maybe life isn't over after all, what else might I enjoy doing?" And it went from there.
So STOP focusing on your W. STOP thinking about how great she has it while you're just suffering. STOP waiting for something to happen. START living YOUR life.
Hi AS
Slowly learning what you mean.
As the post mention there is very little interaction with WW this is making it easier to move forward with my GAL'ing, again I think you're right that I haven't got to the point yet where she's out of my system after all I spent the last 12 years being with this person heart body and soul but the longer this goes on the thinner the rope...
I see my situation being played out in two definitive stages, the detachment which is almost there and the second stage is the showing WW when she comes knocking the best me who's enjoying himself getting out and meeting people whether it's faking it or not.
No more thinking about her but I feel baby steps!
Thanks again
Mark.
Hi All,
Well the time has come where my WW has taken my S10 & 8 away with her AP/LO for a week, Yesterday was particularly hard and my WW could see that this hurt a lot when it came to me saying goodbye and wishing them a good time with their mum.
I had a tear in my eye which my WW saw and she mouthed “sorry” to me I turned away from her as I didn’t want her to see this having an effect on me BUT deep down I couldn’t help myself. I am slowly coming to terms with these situations and remained calm and eventually happy when we were together, my boys are amazing and just take everything in their stride and are a good example for me in how I should be acting.
I realised though that Yesterday wasn’t about her leaving me for a week with her AP/LO this I had no problems with it was just that I feel completely replaced with him living in my house, sleeping in my bed and playing happy families with my WW and boys. So far I have not seen this individual and my WW is keeping to the boundary I put in place for HIS benefit.
I backslid a bit though as my WW mentioned that it was only for 4-nights and that I had them the previous week and she missed them the same! I basically took the boys away for 2 days (1-night) last week and she seems to think this was hard for her I wish she could have been in my shoes at that point to see just how hurtful this whole episode is going to be for me…
I feel I might have plied some guilt on her and the leaving was not what I wanted it to be this affected me more than I thought it would.
How could she take my boys away from me with him..? Part of the fantasy…?
Anyway I’m now going to GAL for my life this week to keep me occupied as I’ve NEVER been away from my boys at all throughout their lives for this amount of time, not sure it will affect them but sure will me.
Thanks.
Mark.
How could she take my boys away from me with him..? Part of the fantasy…?
I would love to share with you my thoughts on that, except with the electronic censoring on this forum I'm afraid it would just look something like this "***** ****** *** ****". That is so incredibly disrespectful to you and the kids that I can barely hold my tongue. At least my XW had the courtesy to keep OM away from the kids until well after our D, and they never did go on a vacation together. Your W really takes the cake, her selfishness is frankly outrageous. Very sorry you're being put through this, a stray dog would no doubt get more compassion from her. Hang in there buddy, you are strong, you can do this!
You are clearly stronger than myself. I would have snapped at the very suggestion of bringing my child around OM. Your W has taken the disrespect to a whole new level. I know you feel that you have to hold all of this in front of your W, but it's alright to let her know that you are disgusted with this decision.
Thanks AS, Tread,
Difficult times for sure.
Don’t get me wrong I definitely told WW that I thought what she was planning to do over the holidays as a total disrespect to not only me but the boys as well, I mentioned that she is putting them in a position that is pitting me against the AP/LO and is grossly unfair on them.
I pointed out to her that it was morally wrong for her to introduce a stranger into their lives but all this fell on deaf ears and just escalated resentment in her.
Being a profound Mr Nice Guy the disrespect demonstrated through these conversations was so obvious and knowing there was no way I could prevent this from happening I basically had to accept the fact.
The boys call me each day to “check in” but what do I say? “I hope you and your brother are enjoying yourselves, what you up to!” It’s interesting as every time they have called WW has chirped in with some kind of comment. I try to keep these conversations short as knowing they’re on the beach with WW and boyfriend is kind of hard to take but it’s not their fault, so far I have found that I could easily manage not seeing WW again as I’m realising it’s the boys I miss now and not her so progress there and again where will I be this time next year…
Thanks for your continued support.
Mark.
Don’t get me wrong I definitely told WW that I thought what she was planning to do over the holidays as a total disrespect to not only me but the boys as well, I mentioned that she is putting them in a position that is pitting me against the AP/LO and is grossly unfair on them.
I pointed out to her that it was morally wrong for her to introduce a stranger into their lives but all this fell on deaf ears and just escalated resentment in her.
Mark,
When ever there is something you want to tell or text your W, ask yourself first "what can I accomplish by telling this?". You're a smart guy. You know you won't accomplish anything positive at all. You can only make things worse. You know she isn't hearing you right now. All that she hear is "blah blah negative blah blah". I know why you do it. I get it.
But for the sake of your sitch, be the bigger person. She sure isn't right now, so if you want things to take a turn for the better eventually, you have to pull back and let things run their natural course.
Here is a little trick for you when you feel a bit down. Just imagine the look on your W's face when AP eventually dumps her. That sad "WTF I lost everything" look. That should lift your mood a bit
Being a profound Mr Nice Guy the disrespect demonstrated through these conversations was so obvious and knowing there was no way I could prevent this from happening I basically had to accept the fact.
NG or not you are correct in that there's really nothing you can do about it. Legally she's within her rights. Morally? No, not at all. All you can do is continue showing your boys what a great dad you are. I promise you, at their ages they are NOT HAPPY that W is flaunting OM in their faces. YOU are their dad and OM is an unwelcome interloper. Just continue to be an awesome dad to them and try not to concern yourself with the mess your W is making. If they should bring it up with you next time you see them just listen and validate.
Thanks AS,
To be honest they're just getting on with it, we have a rule a bit like "Lord Voldemort" in the Harry Potter films he's someone that will never be mentioned in my "home".
I realised morels left her 8-months ago and by all accounts aren't returning any time soon.
Mark.
Hello All,
Strange post today!
Last night I had a dream which basically opened my eyes a little about my situation, I was with my WW somewhere with my family and the atmosphere was not exactly friendly but not isolated between us either. I had no indication that the A had finished or that R was on the cards, as time went on I saw WW upset about something and as a typical MNG I went to see if I could comfort her.
She had in her hand a photo of one of our boys with an incredible hulk mask on (his favourite thing in the past) which I assumed and “felt” upset her possibly bringing her to her senses a little. The conversation then went the direction of me trying to reconcile our MR with talk of the past and how we could R, I woke up from this dream suddenly at the point where she looked into my eyes and said “I’m sorry Mark I won’t be leaving AP/LO” and that I was wasting my time trying to force the issue.
Actually this was a major wake-up call for me and allowed me to feel what it would be like to approach my WW too soon or to push for R quicker if at all.
This really did hit me hard and I hope will serve me well going into the future.
Like I said a weird post but useful…
Mark.
Morning Mark
That's really strange but I'm glad it was positive for you. I can't imagine how you must feel with them being on holiday with OM, mine are only at his Mum's with him and I can't bare it.
Have a good day
SJ
Hello All,
I was wondering the forums views on when having any interaction with their relevant WS the best way to approach the situation, I have been on these boards now for a while and am getting conflicting approaches!
DR would suggest that we remain upbeat towards WS and show a person who is working towards looking inwards at themselves to be a better version not necessarily for our WS BUT for ourselves. The premise here is that doing this will IMHO set us up for the WORST not our ultimate goal of R the MR.
I feel looking at various threads that the “climate” here is to more than likely prepare ourselves for lives WITHOUT our WS and look at the next chapter in our lives.
Detaching and the LRT is SO counter intuitive that I find it hard to believe that this approach is successful at all, the actual DR book has very little on the subject of A’s (chapter 10) it again offers very little with regards to how to handle these situations and is more catered for POST A and how to stop the M from following the same old patterns.
I’ll break it down.
Detachment – to give the WS the ability to see for themselves what life would be like WITHOUT their S, also to aid the BS to better manage their personal sanity keeping them away from the life their WS and AP/LO are now living.
NC – don’t talk to your WS! No texts, calls or emails, for me this allows the WS to basically forget about his/her BS and focus entirely on the AP/LO.
No pursuing – can be construed as “I’ve got into this mess due to me taking you for granted or having little time for you” but will continue to do this now!
DTR – doing NO action that can be classed as supporting the WS.
If we were to look at the above list with a “beginners mind” what would it say? I don’t care about you, I’m not going to talk to you or help you in any way. Not very appealing and definitely not productive in building a relationship!
Why does the above list work? Can anybody explain it to me?
I personally feel that the lack of respect over many years of marriage diluted the R but how did this come about? I have read Sandi2 posts and done some research but is the list above any more conducive in regaining that respect or does it magnify and build up more resentment against the BS?
What makes these techniques productive, to me it goes against all reason with regards to building a relationship! If I were to want to start a new R the following would be true:
Talking – lots of talking and then more talking, how do you get to know the person? How do you keep that person interested? How can a R start without talking and continued talking at that?
Support – when we are wanting to be with this person on an emotional level do we not support their actions? Do we not help them when difficulties arise?
Having time for them – only over time does a R flourish! Long distance R aren’t that successful are they…
Does the above list sound a lot like what the AP/LO offered the WS to get them to the point of leaving the M?
Now this is where I feel I’m going to get lots of “stick” from people here but justify it.
What would happen if?
When your WS was to interact with you you did the following:
Listen to her and be her best friend, I mean no talk of the AP/LO or the A but talk like you did when you were first courting?
Be her safe place, let her know if she has problems about ANYTHING you are there to support her any way possible, you validate her, comfort her, be there for her.
Please don’t get me wrong I’m not suggesting you allow her to cake eat you continue to have certain boundaries, I also don’t feel any mention of his/her “other” life should come into the equation. I will try to continue to show my WW a person who is making himself the best person he can be physically and mentally whilst looking at why the MR failed and work at getting his side of the street in order.
There will come a time where affects the A is having on my WW will wain and at this point I don’t think not being there to support or interact with her for the previous months, years will aid in her seeing me as an option that is any better. Again the thought process is that AFTER this amount of time has passed the BS has found his/her life can go on with or without the WS again counter intuitive to the whole DR principles…
Thanks for reading.
Mark.
parkema,
I had the same dilemma; how do I reconcile the DR book (and coaches) with the forum? I think it's a really good question and I think it's a question almost all of us ask at some point.
I believe, for most of us that come to the forum, we may not realize it, but we're already in the "last resort" phase of DB. Our spouses are usually in an EA/PA and our best hope for resurrecting the marriage is to show our spouses that we're strong and we're willing to move on with our lives without them.
Unfortunately, most people who are new to the forum are often blindsided and so beset with fear that they often misinterpret the advice or they cherry pick the things they like and avoid the things they don't like.
I had a coach and I told the coach that my wife wanted to talk to my sons about divorce, but I didn't want to do that because I didn't want a divorce. The coach told me to go out and get find some information about how to talk to children about divorce and then give it to my wife. My brain was shouting, "NO WAY." What the coach was trying to do was to get me to do a 180 and show my wife that I was willing to move forward with the divorce (and by proxy move forward with my life). But, I was so full of fear that I felt like I had to continue delaying the divorce as long as possible. I should have been putting my effort into being happy and moving forward with my life. I thought I was DBing, but in reality I was clinging to my marriage for dear life.
In conclusion, I think the book and the forum are not as far apart as they may seem, but the book is addressing the full spectrum of marital discord, not just marriages in the final stage of decline.
I hope that helps. As usual, I could be wrong...
Hi Mark
I can understand what you are saying but you talk as though you are still in R with you WW and currently you are not, sorry if that sounds a bit harsh. What you are about with the new R is exactly where you want to get to with your WW right? But that will only be if/when SHE is ready. The techniques are about how you get there. You admit there have been issues, you don't want old R back because that is what lead to where you are now. Ideal world we want new R with the person we are still married to and to me DBing is about that exactly. We all change in M especially when kids come along and some people see excitement and an escape route in another person for a time and sometimes it can be a long time but they ultimately never end up better off than they were, unless of course they escaping an abusive R and you certainly don't sound like an abusive man.
Not sure if you've read my most recent posts but my H went on a dream holiday last week and it was a disaster!! A little different for him as he went without the kids and we would have normally been on our annual family holiday, even so believe you me your W will be comparing. She will remember family holidays previously with you and your kids, it will not be all rosy in the garden with OM. He will not be comfortable around your kids and as a mother she will not be comfortable with him around your kids. One of my absolute best friends is male, I have known him longer than I've know my H, he is Godfather to both my kids and is more like an Uncle to them than a friend. Once he reprimanded my kids when H was on tour and in fairness it was to defend me but I couldn't handle it and had to tell him and that's my best friend not someone I am having an A with and already feel guilty about. I hope that made sense?
Going back to your questioning about the techniques I do believe they work if you and find what works for you and your sitch and are consistent. The fact that she mouthed sorry to you is something up until then all you had was an ice queen so what was different?
Keep your chin up.
SJ x
I agree with these, Mark.
Here's what I think may be confusing you, also. You talk as though you are still in a R with your wife, which legally, you still are. But emotionally, for her, you are not. You are separated, she has left you for another man, and she is not thinking of you as her husband any longer. What you keep trying to convince yourself of, is that you ARE still thought of and should be acting like her husband, so you want to act like a husband should act, all being there for her, comforting her, paying attention to her, etc.
That will be priceless, IF AND WHEN SHE WANTS TO BE YOUR WIFE AGAIN and HAVE a marriage with you. Right now, she does not. I know that is so hard to hear- it's even hard for me to say it. But until you really GET that, all this stuff you feel is counter-productive to a great marriage is wasted.
She is not going to forget you. She not ever want to be your wife again. But your best chance of her wanting that, is to see she is losing you. The YOU that she loved in the beginning of the R, not the nice guy, waiting by the door, hoping she will come back.
I think that's the hardest part for any of us. We so badly want to tell ourselves that DB is counter-productive, that our situation is different from the thousands on here, so we really don't have to do it, because OUR spouse is going to come back if we just look sad enough, or be kind enough, or whatever. It just doesn't work that way.
All those things you list up above are things to start to build a new R, when you both want one. Right now, she does not. So it's useless for you to think those things are going to work with her, until she comes to you and says, I'm done with OM, and I want us to start over and build a new R. THEN those things will be the building blocks you can start to work on. But you're not there, and you can't control if she'll ever get to that place. Which is why you keep hearing GAL- it's good for you, etc.... you know all that, but honestly, it's the only sane things to do, especially at first, while you know in your heart all you're doing is waiting and hoping she'll leave OM and want you back. Then slowly, as your heart gets in line with GAL, you'll start to care less and less.
If you've not read Divorce Busting, maybe order it also. It's also very good and may help you more in where you are right now.
Good luck, and I'm sorry if this came across as harsh. God knows I wish all this stuff were not true.
Doodler is right. DR is geared toward marriages in general.
But even in DR, it says that you should go to LRT immediately under certain conditions, one of which is if you and your spouse are not living together.
Mark,
You know I'm a newbie just like you, so I am by no means a professional DB'er. But you asked for opinions, here is mine.
When I first started reading DR (a couple of months after D) I found the book interesting. A 100 pages
in, I put it back in my drawer, stating to myself, "this is not for me". Imagine the losing coach of the SuperBowl comes into the dressing room after the game saying, "oh there is my playbook, if only I had it 4 quarters ago". That's how I felt. The book couldn't bring me anything in regards to saving my marriage, as it was already over by then (just like the Superbowl).
So I decided just to let my gut (continue to) tell me how to proceed in regards to my XW. It turned out that my gut told me basically the same stuff we're being told over and over again, here at this forum. (well 90 %'ish...)
Will my gut feeling bring back my XW? Probably not. But neither will the DR book. There is no doubt that there are some great tools in the books - when you are IN a functional or a faltering relationship - and also tools that applies to other aspects of life. But I didn't come here to change into a new person. I came to get my XW back. Someday I'll probably dust it off and read it, but I dont really think I NEED to right now.
What I believe bring back spouses, is not a special trick or any particular approach. It is the spouse that brings themselves back. Not me, not any book, no website. The WAW/WW/MLC must FOR THEMSELVES realise that they lost something that they somehow forgot they had or didn't appreciate enough they had. Basically, love brings them back. (or memories of love). Not your love for them, but their love for you.
So as long as my XW continues the "A", I continue my approach. Which is not at all intended to bring her back. It is intended to protect my emotions and my sanity. And most of all, my dignity and self-respect.
I try not to make matters worse and I also do not try make them better.
What my XW did to me is not something that I believe should be rewarded with my friendship, my compassion, a shoulder to cry on etc etc. She hurt me big time and I'm quite OK with her knowing that (I havent told her directly, but she probably senses it). I am not a jerk or anything, but it will be raining green pigs before I ever asks her how she is doing or "have a great weekend" - you get the drill.
However, WHEN (if ever) the A ends, and she is more likely to be recepient to common sense, I probably will twist my approch a bit. (If I'm still interested in getting her back by then, which seems more unlikely day by day). When the A is over, she will have served "her time". There is nothing I can do or say while she is in the fog, limerent, "in love" or whatever term you prefer to use, to get her back, so I see no reason to humiliate myself by giving her my friendship. Isn't that almost a win/win for her?
My self-respect is extremely important to me. A big part of me. Maybe even more important to me than my M. Why continue to let her walk all over it?
My advise to you Mark, walk the path that makes the most sense to you. Who knows, maybe your W is the one who is brought back by a friendship. The X'es are all different. That one thing that bring back yours is not guaranteed to bring back anyone elses, right? So do what you believe in. At the end of the day, this is your struggle. You should be able to look yourself in the mirror a couple of years from now and say "I did MY best".
Whatever approach you choose, I root for you.
I feel looking at various threads that the “climate” here is to more than likely prepare ourselves for lives WITHOUT our WS and look at the next chapter in our lives.
I think it would be more accurate to say that DB'ing is "think back about what your spouse was attracted to in the beginning, and become that person again". Strong, independent, self-sufficient. That doesn't mean prepare yourself for a life without your W, it just means become strong and independent again and you may very well attract her back.
If we were to look at the above list with a “beginners mind” what would it say? I don’t care about you, I’m not going to talk to you or help you in any way. Not very appealing and definitely not productive in building a relationship!
You have to remember that a WAS has a COMPLETELY different mindset than a potential girlfriend. What works during courting DOES NOT WORK with a WAS. You mentioned reading Sandi's posts, did you miss the part where she is constantly pointing out how the WAS wants absolutely NOTHING from the LBS? They don't want nurturing and emotional support from the LBS, it actually REPULSES them. During my snooping phase early on I ran across a message my W sent a friend in which she said her worst nightmare was that she might get sick and I would have to take care of her. She said the thought of that "horrified" her. Wow was that ever like a hard kick to the stomach, the woman I loved was "horrified" at the thought of me caring for her! For over a year she wanted NOTHING from me, she went out of her way to refuse any kind of help I offered. By detaching and not calling/ texting/ emailing you are giving her exactly what she wants, which is the whole point. By the way it wasn't until about 3 years post BD that my XW started sharing her feelings with me again and asking me for help with stuff.
If I were to want to start a new R the following would be true:
Agreed. In a NEW relationship.
Does the above list sound a lot like what the AP/LO offered the WS to get them to the point of leaving the M?
Yup.
What would happen if?
When your WS was to interact with you you did the following:
Listen to her and be her best friend, I mean no talk of the AP/LO or the A but talk like you did when you were first courting?
Be her safe place, let her know if she has problems about ANYTHING you are there to support her any way possible, you validate her, comfort her, be there for her.
I hope Sandi sees this and jumps in, but I think she will say that is the last thing your W wants from YOU right now. She did at one point, she felt she wasn't getting it, she tried for months or years to communicate that to you and felt you didn't listen, then she sought it elsewhere. So for her now, it's "too late" for that.
I think in a nutshell you're asking if you have a shot at being OM to the OM, and if so can you get there by "out-OM'ing" him, LOL! And who knows, maybe some day you could be that emotional pillar for her again but it's probably years down the road before she's open to that again.
Hey Mark!
I so feel your pain and confusion. I am a newbie and so I have no sage advice to give. What AS and others have said has a lot more experience behind it.
The only thing I can say is this. I have just recently really understood that I have to make all the changes ONLY for myself. Some stuff is easy to change - get a new wardrobe, look better, get active, etc. But, what is harder to work on is going through that self-critical process where you realize you fell short in the M. This is not to beat yourself up over and over again, but to critically understand your failings as a human being and just have some humility and mercy for yourself. Then look at those areas that you want to change to be a better human being, and work on those. Get IC or other help and don't try to do it all alone.
I have been a survivor in my life and I always felt that the world could dump and $hit all over me and I would take it, be resilient, and overcome it - all by myself. I know that it's not true because I am also just human and I need to reach out for help.
Once you truly get to the point mentally and emotionally about the purpose of needing to make changes - which is for your growth as a person - you stop worrying about if your W or H is noticing any of it. They most likely are, but you're not doing it for them so it doesn't matter.
And if they come back, then you deal with that. You don't know where you will be mentally and emotionally - but that's later so I wouldn't dwell on it.
Also, do what makes sense in your sitch and use the great advice here, DR/DB as helpful guidelines. What I am currently doing in my sitch for a few weeks is probably not what would be advised - but I am tweaking my approach to get some answers about W's behaviours, not to change my approach to get her back. I don't know if she will ever.
The comment about the WW/WAS mindset is extremely important and that's why the advice here seems counter-intuitive. But, it works and you have to figure out how you want to tweak it based on your sitch. But, don't do it to get her back. Do it for protecting yourself and improving yourself.
I got so caught up in every nitty-gritty thing with W - did i say that right? was i positive enough? how did i handle R talks? This can drive you up the wall and your focus is only on her, not you.
I had one very quick interaction with my W the other day and it was the first time since we got married where i didn't care how she reacted to what I said. And it was hugely liberating because I did it for myself and stayed true to myself.
You will pass the confusion stage as soon as you recognize that you're doing this for you, and only you.
Thanks All,
If I may I’ll pick out certain comments chronologically and counter if you don’t mind.
Hi Doodler – “Unfortunately, most people who are new to the forum are often blindsided and so beset with fear that they often misinterpret the advice or they cherry pick the things they like and avoid the things they don't like.” I TOTALLY agree with you and think it’s human nature to do so, I personally find it hard to follow the practices relating to DR and the LRT BUT will continue to do these acts as I’m a novice to all this and understand that those on here who are seasoned must have seen success by dong them..?
“My brain was shouting, "NO WAY." What the coach was trying to do was to get me to do a 180 and show my wife that I was willing to move forward with the divorce (and by proxy move forward with my life). But, I was so full of fear that I felt like I had to continue delaying the divorce as long as possible. I should have been putting my effort into being happy and moving forward with my life. I thought I was DBing, but in reality I was clinging to my marriage for dear life.” I think this paragraph explains to a degree what I’m trying to convey, why should we NOT fight for our M against the AP/LO? What I get from the boards is ACCEPTANCE, I obviously understand that we can’t control their actions or change their mind-set but does that mean we should accept the inevitable? The practices in DR are based on experience and with that knowledge we are able to as you say cherry pick our strategies but again I see the goal setting and such for a MR where R is already being undertaken, problems are known and can be worked on due to us knowing what happened in the past to get us to that point.
In an ongoing A we are literally fighting to save our MR I’m not so sure the “primary” tactics are beneficial but again I’m no expert and will continue to do the DR’ing. Certain individuals on these boards would suggest that the WW as no interest in the LBS at all and are selfish and self-centred, again I agree and here I will use the DR techniques to work on myself as this has a couple of benefits that are well known here.
Hi SJ – good to hear from you. “I can understand what you are saying but you talk as though you are still in R with you WW and currently you are not, sorry if that sounds a bit harsh. What you are about with the new R is exactly where you want to get to with your WW right? But that will only be if/when SHE is ready.” Really hard to accept after so many years a WW can give up all of that history and re-write what the MR had. I will accept that I am STILL in a R with my WW but it is now totally different, what can be done to get them to look back at R the MR? How can this be escalated? Do we really feel that leaving them alone to enjoy their “fantasy” and allowing the guilt to dissipate by accepting their choice and MOVE ON is “solution orientated”?
“You admit there have been issues, you don't want old R back because that is what lead to where you are now.” Of course, I accept 50% of the blame for the decline in our MR and here I feel is where the DR literature and advice comes into its own.
“Going back to your questioning about the techniques I do believe they work if you and find what works for you and your sitch and are consistent. The fact that she mouthed sorry to you is something up until then all you had was an ice queen so what was different?” At this particular time she saw how much hurt was in me as she was taking my kids away from me for the longest period of time since both of them were born! I was slightly emotional (had a tear in my eyes) BUT imagine if there was a detachment where she would just be picking them up from outside my house, how could this emotion be conveyed to her if she’s not there to see it? Do we continue to convey a stance of acceptance of the A? Do we not show them that we don’t condone their actions? This one moment in time as you rightly state gave one the most positive responses I’ve had in 6-months!
Hi leahsue – “Here's what I think may be confusing you, also. You talk as though you are still in a R with your wife, which legally, you still are. But emotionally, for her, you are not. You are separated, she has left you for another man, and she is not thinking of you as her husband any longer.” I TOTALLY understand this, if you see the name of the original tread I’m well versed in the limerent affect and the phases WW go through. There obsessing of the AP/LO, the re-writing of the MR history to suit their way of accepting their wayward behaviour and justify their A. I also understand this can’t be maintained, disintegration is a law of nature it has to happen, what happens to this A over time? Do these WS maintain the fantasy that everything is going to be perfect or does reality kick in somewhere?
I’m all for allowing the WW have enough rope to hang herself and suffer the reality of her wayward actions whilst maintaining my own sanity by separating myself from their A, but the counter intuitiveness of not being there to show a better option when their A does go “south” just doesn’t ring true! Again don’t get me wrong I bow to your experience and continue to detach.
“She is not going to forget you. She not ever want to be your wife again. But your best chance of her wanting that, is to see she is losing you.” Here again I’m at a loss! Are we not saying that WW are not interested in their BS? Are the BS not the furthest from their minds and all there focus is on their AP/LO? What makes the forum think that WW having the threat of losing their BS is the best way of bringing them back if they’re not even interested… I just can’t justify this statement.
“But you're not there, and you can't control if she'll ever get to that place. Which is why you keep hearing GAL- it's good for you, etc.... you know all that, but honestly, it's the only sane things to do, especially at first, while you know in your heart all you're doing is waiting and hoping she'll leave OM and want you back.” AGREE I continue to GAL for me this is helping immensely with me keeping my mind off their A, I’m also not interested in what she thinks about all of this either.
“Then slowly, as your heart gets in line with GAL, you'll start to care less and less.” I feel this comes with time BUT I fight this! My whole view here is that I want my MR, I want my family to be whole (the nuclear family) I don’t want them to be just another statistic, I also don’t want to look back in time and say to myself “what if” I did this or that. BUT again this shows how IMHO the forum is preparing for the worst and accepting the inevitable. I am at war and it’s this mind-set I take with me.
Hi Rose888 – can I ask if you are piecing? I ask because something has worked for this to happen and it’s this information I’m obviously interested in. If you are was it the DR techniques that worked for you or a mixture of other things with these?
Hi Btrow – Yes! I agree with you TOTALLY, I’m not suggesting I’m here now waiting at the door for my WW to come back running in slow motion into my arms! I continue to work on me to be the best version of me I can but how does the forum see the benefits of this? In one respect I feel that members would suggest it allows for a higher percentage in gaining a new R, obvious as a worse you would not be as good would it! This again IMHO wallows in ACCEPTANCE of the MR coming to an end, I’m not willing to accept this.
I continue to detach, I continue to work on me, I continue to GAL as much as I possibly can and I NEVER pursue her EVER. I have boundaries and separating from my children due to her A is a massive statement of intent, I understand the aspects of losing respect for the BS by the WW due to usually his passiveness and is something I’m challenging myself to get better at – no more MNG.
I do worry about the cake eating aspect of the R but I feel the above statement shows that I still do DR and will continue, when she’s ready to talk then I will rely on a different approach.
I appreciate you rooting for me and the refreshing stance you view our predicaments.
AS – thanks as usual “You mentioned reading Sandi's posts, did you miss the part where she is constantly pointing out how the WAS wants absolutely NOTHING from the LBS? They don't want nurturing and emotional support from the LBS, it actually REPULSES them.” No not at all, I feel Sandi as a lot to offer all of us I’m NOT suggesting anything with my most recent post except the counter intuitiveness of the DR method. What I am suggesting is that we should not just accept the fact that the situation should be just forgotten about and allow the AP partners to have an easy life! Again I’m not pursuing her I’m too busy finding things to do its just when she comes to me then showing her that I am a safe place where she can have a place where she knows she can vent without being berated is beneficial to building up that friendship again. I in no way suggest we praise her course of action in fact this is a definite boundary, she starts to talk about the AP I simply tell her I understand her feelings towards him and end it there. If it continues I end the conversation and she leaves!
“I think in a nutshell you're asking if you have a shot at being OM to the OM, and if so can you get there by "out-OM'ing" him, LOL! And who knows, maybe someday you could be that emotional pillar for her again but it's probably years down the road before she's open to that again.” Absolutely but his method was successful was it not? Did my MR suffer due to a lack in emotional involvement? Yes. Did I leave her to manage the children and go to my man-cave when she started to “nag”? Definitely. Did this build up the resentment over the years that diluted the MR to a point where she decided to find comfort in another individual? What do you think…?
What I am suggesting IN MY SITUATION continuing to do these things won’t solve the issues in my MR, I need to demonstrate a person who can be more emotionally involved, be supportive and not go missing when she cries out for it but also not be so passive and be more capable of “shouting her down” when the need calls for it BUT I never pursue.
Hi Maika – “Once you truly get to the point mentally and emotionally about the purpose of needing to make changes - which is for your growth as a person - you stop worrying about if your W or H is noticing any of it. They most likely are, but you're not doing it for them so it doesn't matter.” I’m all for making myself better and looking at my inadequacies with my MR which I’m spending a lot of time on. I understand we do this for ourselves in the hope that “someone” appreciates the changes if not them then us! I also know this is great for gaining our own sanity.
“The comment about the WW/WAS mind-set is extremely important and that's why the advice here seems counter-intuitive. But, it works and you have to figure out how you want to tweak it based on your sitch. But, don't do it to get her back. Do it for protecting yourself and improving yourself.” It works based on what? I’m not knocking the board at all I base my “beliefs” on facts which is dare I say counter intuitive to the forum, the phases of limerence, the people don’t leave something for something worse. These statements are true if you research them I base my methods on a mixture of DR’ing and when the WS comes to interact with me the safe place, best friend approach with of course those definite boundaries where the A is NOT mentioned or the AP/LO.
Please all don’t get me wrong for MR’s that are in the process of R then I feel the DR books can help a great deal I’m just not so sure about an on-going A but WILL CONTINUE to carry out these practices and monitor the results.
Just my opinion and one defiantly in the minority.
Thanks all again.
Mark.