Hey, this is my first post here, though I've been lurking for maybe 6 weeks. Wife dropped the bomb ("I'm thinking about leaving you") about 2 months ago. I've read the Divorce Remedy and done TLR online training. Things are getting worse and worse, and I'm honestly not sure how much longer I can go on. The D seems inevitable at this point.
I'm apprehensive about posting details since they may be used to identify me. Can anyone give me advice on how to tell my story without revealing too much?
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
I would say reveal away, if she wants out she's not going to be cyberstalking you. Just pick a handle that has no relevance to your real life and don't mention people or place names. You will need support and help so the more details you can provide the better. If you're really worried about it skip the forum and hire a telephone coach
Acc
It does happen all the time.
My ex found me on these forums and the only thing I can
say is be careful.
Really if she is stalking you it is a form of pursuit and might be a good thing.
Although my ex wanted it to try to gain an advantage in the divorce proceedings and as best as I know does not stalk me 11,000 posts later.
We try not to allow any real names or id things on the board.
Well lets see if you continue to post.
Things are getting worse and worse, and I'm honestly not sure how much longer I can go on. The D seems inevitable at this point.
Things typically get a lot worse before they start getting better. How long has your sitch been going on? I just commented on another person's thread yesterday where he posted that exact same word, that D was "inevitable". I looked back and a little over a year before he had posted that exact same comment about D being inevitable back then. If you can remove all pressure it's not at all uncommon for the WAS to completely drop the D and let things stay in limbo indefinitely. But even if D does happen, that's not the end either. There's always hope.
OK, here we go. My wife (40) and I (44) have been married 18 years and have two sons, 10 and 14.
I got the ILYBINILWY talk at the end of April. Things had been on a slow decline for a few years, so I knew our relationship was not in good shape. But I didn't realize how far she'd gone. She gave me a laundry list of the problems in our relationship - I was emotionally distant, we didn't have anything in common, I wasn't affectionate, we had a dead bedroom. She had talked to a lawyer and gotten some advice. She'd run budgets for separation. She said she didn't know what she wanted and needed some time. I bawled my eyes out. It truly broke my heart.
For two weeks I was a mess. I started seeing a PT. And I tried to do ALL THE THINGS: using her love languages, saying I love you, trying to give hugs, hold hands, send little kind and flirty texts, compliments, flowers, notes, etc. I came on WAY too strong. I didn't get any responses on anything, except maybe "OK", or "Thanks" or "Why couldn't you do this a year ago". This was around when I discovered this place, so I started backing off. I stopped with the hugs, saying I love you, holding hands, and flirty things.
She didn't like to have any relationship talk at first, and I was admittedly very heavy on that. So I started backing off on that too and waiting for her to bring it up. The relationship talks morphed into a series of small BD's - she didn't have any hope of us getting better, she can't go back to the marriage, if it wasn't for the kids she'd be gone; she lost her attraction to me; kissing me is like kissing her brother. She said if I asked her to decide now, it would be to leave. But she wants to wait and not make any rash decisions.
I found out she texted a friend and said she's made up her mind to leave, but is waiting for later in the year. I suspect there's someone else. She's been looking at houses, but she'd never be able to afford buying one on her salary alone. We make almost the same amount of money.
We've also been seeing a couples counselor (her suggestion) since the BD. This is a woman my wife has seen before by herself. I emailed the counselor over this past weekend for guidance, saying I was starting to lose my hope. Yesterday the counselor emailed me back saying: the relationship with my wife is over, and I need to give myself time to grieve and deal with my feelings. I haven't shown the email to my wife, and I get the impression she doesn't know about it. The email really knocked the wind out of me.
I read DR and did the LRT training about a month ago. I've been doing some parts of LRT, but not 100% consistently. To be honest, me being emotionally distant makes me wonder if the LRT is right for my situation.
My username is short for "Holding on to hope" but I'm not sure how much hope I have left.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
I am really surprised at the email that you received back from the counselor. That really seems like she was at least toeing the line if she in fact didn't cross over it. But with that said, I wouldn't put too much weight in it. She's your W's counselor, and you can bet your W has only given her info on why she needs to leave you in search of someone to be "on her side".
You mentioned that you think there might be another person involved, why do you think that, or more importantly, are you sure?
For now, keep giving your W space, I can't tell you how many times i've read that the D is inevitable, but more often than not, a year or two later hasn't happened yet because without pressure (from the LBS) there isn't much to gain for the WAW or WW.
You said you've been lurking for 6 weeks, have you taking the first steps to GAL?
I am really surprised at the email that you received back from the counselor. That really seems like she was at least toeing the line if she in fact didn't cross over it. But with that said, I wouldn't put too much weight in it. She's your W's counselor, and you can bet your W has only given her info on why she needs to leave you in search of someone to be "on her side".
The email was really surprising for me as well. I'm trying to get in touch with my therapist and get their opinion on it. At first I thought my wife must be in on it, but then that would be such a cowardly way to BD.
You mentioned that you think there might be another person involved, why do you think that, or more importantly, are you sure?
Sure is a relative term. I've seen and heard things. There is something going on but I'm not sure if it's EA, PA, or what. I'd rather not go into more on that.
For now, keep giving your W space, I can't tell you how many times i've read that the D is inevitable, but more often than not, a year or two later hasn't happened yet because without pressure (from the LBS) there isn't much to gain for the WAW or WW.
Will do, thanks!
You said you've been lurking for 6 weeks, have you taking the first steps to GAL?
Yes. Been trying to do activities by myself and with my sons, reach out to friends, follow interests, try new things, just talk to people more and get out of my shell. Getting friends has been a little rough, since I spent so many years focused on my sons.
I got the ILYBINILWY talk at the end of April. Things had been on a slow decline for a few years, so I knew our relationship was not in good shape. But I didn't realize how far she'd gone. She gave me a laundry list of the problems in our relationship - I was emotionally distant, we didn't have anything in common, I wasn't affectionate, we had a dead bedroom.
Very, very typical WAS scenario. You're in the right place!
This was around when I discovered this place, so I started backing off. I stopped with the hugs, saying I love you, holding hands, and flirty things.
Good, because that's all heavy-handed pursuit behavior and is just driving her farther away. Take it from me, I tried all that too and it just made things worse.
she didn't have any hope of us getting better, she can't go back to the marriage, if it wasn't for the kids she'd be gone; she lost her attraction to me; kissing me is like kissing her brother. She said if I asked her to decide now, it would be to leave. But she wants to wait and not make any rash decisions.
All of that is textbook stuff too. Very typical of what WAS's say.
I found out she texted a friend and said she's made up her mind to leave, but is waiting for later in the year.
First of all, QUIT SNOOPING. Second of all, read Sandi's 37 rules, and pay particular attention to this one:
"Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared."
She may or may not do anything later this year. You don't know. She doesn't know. Your job is to remove all pressure, because if you can really do that she will probably not feel the need to pursue that.
Yesterday the counselor emailed me back saying: the relationship with my wife is over, and I need to give myself time to grieve and deal with my feelings.
Unlike C-nut, I am NOT AT ALL surprised at that. The vast majority of marriage counselors are really just divorce facilitators. Sad but true. We used to discuss that a lot on here. Drop your C right away, they are not aligned with your interests. There's a link somewhere on Michele's site to solutions-based counselors. Find one, or better yet hire a DB coach.
I read DR and did the LRT training about a month ago. I've been doing some parts of LRT, but not 100% consistently. To be honest, me being emotionally distant makes me wonder if the LRT is right for my situation.
LRT is called "last resort" for a reason, you don't go there until you've exhausted everything else. I don't think you're there yet.
LRT is called "last resort" for a reason, you don't go there until you've exhausted everything else. I don't think you're there yet.
Thanks for the response! If it's not time for LRT, where should I be? What would you recommend? I've considered a DB coach, but I'm wondering how effective it might really be.
GAL'ing is the only thing I know I can do right now. My current goal is to make myself strong, independent, and not needy.
And I should add that my W is still in the house with me and our sons. She and I sleep in the same bed. We talk a little about our days and the kids. Hello/goodbye kisses are sporadic, but she gets upset if I don't want to kiss her good night.
"Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared."
She may or may not do anything later this year. You don't know. She doesn't know. Your job is to remove all pressure, because if you can really do that she will probably not feel the need to pursue that.
You know, I'd like some clarification on this rule. It's telling me to ignore 100% of what she says. But what if W is saying something positive, should I ignore that too? To me it can go both ways.
"Less than 50% of what you see." So that's saying only believe half her actions, good or bad?
Or is the rule really saying this? "Be completely skeptical of everything she says, and partially skeptical of what she does."
Thoughts?
Or is the rule really saying this? "Be completely skeptical of everything she says, and partially skeptical of what she does."
I would say this ^^^^
When they speak they lie.
Actions speak louder than words.
This is something that I have learned the hard way
Trust peoples Actions not their words.
Thanks for the clarification, Cadet.
AnotherStander, I'm eager to hear why you think I'm not at the point of using LRT yet. It's admittedly hard for me to look at my sitch and not see this as the end. Do I wait until my W files for D? I just need some help with perspective.
holding,
I'm also not surprised at all that your counselor said that. Counselors are not charged with saving marriages, they're about helping people deal with their emotions and processing change. If a counselor looks at a relationship where one person is very unhappy, they may feel they're acting in everyone's best interest by trying to help the other party accept the fact that the relationship is over.
The telephone coaches on this site, on the other hand, are experts specifically in troubled marriages where one person wants to stay together and the other doesn't. That's all they do all day long, and they are "coaches" and not "therapists" and that's a very important distinction.
In terms of whether or not it will be effective, here's what I can tell you. There are two parallel things going on right now -- one is that your marriage is off track and the other is that you've been knocked way off your game and are in extreme stress and emotional pain. Regardless of what happens with your marriage, you're going to need to heal from your current emotional setback and that will take quite a bit of time.
If the DB coach doesn't score a victory with your marriage, I guarantee you that they will accelerate your healing and help you to feel better much more quickly than you would otherwise, and that will definitely help your situation.
What is amazingly uncanny on this site is that when one spouse wants to leave the marriage, what they say to the other person and how they act is almost exactly the same, regardless of the circumstances, it's a very predictable script and behavior pattern.
I agree with you there is likely someone else in your wife's life, and I also agree with you that's a symptom and not the cause of the problem.
Typically when one person wants to leave a relationship, its because they've been deeply unhappy for a long time. There's a huge amount of motivation not to rock the boat when you live together, so people will suppress their complaints or doubts for a long time. When finally they feel like they can't stay anymore, they'll face a ton of doubts -- will I ever be in another relationship again? Am I still attractive? Will I ever have fun again? etc. etc.
A very typical response to those doubts is to seek an "exit affair" whereby they line up a soft landing to exit the relationship, get validation for how they're feeling, and ensure themselves that they will not be alone.
Once that happens, they typically feel an intense amount of guilt, which they hate, and eventually they identify their spouse as the cause of why they feel guilty/bad and blame you for it.
At this point, there's really nothing you can do to turn things around other than give space. She *wants* to be mad at you, she wants you to be the bad person, because that validates and justifies the decisions she's making. She's going to look for things that reinforce her preconceived notions, and if you don't follow the script, she'll get even angrier or more resentful because you're contradicting what she wants to believe about you.
She will also re-write the history of your relationship such that it was "always bad", she'll remember every bad thing that happened and seem to have completely forgotten about anything that was good.
It is literally the mother of no-win situations.
What she wants right now is to get away, and to get away without feeling guilty. She will resent you for making her feel guilty, and she resents you already for whatever she didn't like in the marriage.
Here are the things that will make her resent you more:
1) Pursuing her, because she's telling you she wants to get away and you're ignoring her and insisting on your own agenda
2) Blaming her, shaming her, or otherwise overtly adding to her guilt
3) Making her feel responsible for you. If you're sad because of her, she's going to resent you for that.
4) Making changes now that she asked you to make forever and you ignored. You might think you're finally giving her what she wants, but in fact, this is often infuriating to her because if you'd only done it a year ago she wouldn't have had to go through this pain, *and* it doesn't fall into her notion of you that you won't change.
Here are the things that will make her resent you less:
1) Let her off the hook for your feelings. Be happy. Go out and get your own life, pursue your hobbies, enjoy your kids, and be your own person. Fake it until you make it
2) Give her more space than she's asking for. Don't pursue her at all, not one little bit. Treat her as you would a friendly co-worker. Mirror her investment in your relationship, but never escalate it.
3) Change up your patterns. Get in shape, upgrade your wardrobe and your look, be mysterious, don't tell her what you're thinking, where you're going or what you're up to. The more she wonders the better.
This is a terrible road you have to walk, and one of the biggest challenges is surrendering to the fact that there is no quick fix and your control over the situation is limited. You literally have to visualize yourself letting go of the handlebars and surrendering to that which you cannot control -- you'll feel better if you do.
Acc
Acc, thanks so much for that. It really helped me get some perspective.
2) Give her more space than she's asking for. Don't pursue her at all, not one little bit. Treat her as you would a friendly co-worker. Mirror her investment in your relationship, but never escalate it.
This quote in particular really stood out to me. I like your suggestion to mirror her investment in the relationship, but never escalate. It seems like a really good rule of thumb to navigate things, wherever we are in the process.
One thing I've noticed when I'm giving her space, is W will ask me "Is everything okay?" I usually just respond, "Yes, I'm good" and leave it at that. What is going on in her head when she asks me this?
What an awesome post by Acc, it's the perfect summary of DB in less than a page
Thanks for the response! If it's not time for LRT, where should I be? What would you recommend? I've considered a DB coach, but I'm wondering how effective it might really be.
I think Acc effectively answered your questions already, but just to reiterate, you need to give her time and space while working on yourself. If you're out of shape then go on a diet and start hitting the gym. Dress better. Wear cologne if you don't now. Get busy doing stuff (fly a kite, build a model, run in the park, tinker on a car or motorcycle- GAL!), but don't tell W what that stuff is. IE, be mysterious. You're not trying to make her jealous, just make her wonder what is up with you. People are NOT attracted to needy, desperate, pathetic, sad individuals. Unfortunately that's what all of us become post BD. BD turns us into exactly what will NOT attract our WAS back again. So your immediate goal is to make yourself attractive again.
I really need to go back and read DB again, it's been years. I don't recall the exact details in LRT. Maybe I'm confusing it with "going dark" which is cutting all contact with the WAS, even casual contact and just completely insulating yourself. This is done not to try and restore the M, but to help the LBS recover when it seems there is no hope left. Going dark is for people that are at the end of their rope and can't take it anymore, it's a way for them to insulate themselves from further damage while they try and rebuild. That's what I'm saying I don't think you need yet.
Thanks, AnotherStander. Yes, Going Dark sounds more severe, and I haven't gone there yet. LRT is more about be a better you, GAL, detach, but be positive and receptive when your spouse initiates something. But then pull back and be the one to end the conversation.
Weight loss - that started happening immediately after BD, and it was not conscious TBH. I'm down about 20 pounds, but it seems to have leveled off. I'm back to my pre-marriage weight, which I'm ecstatic about. The weird thing is that W had not noticed at all until she asked how much I weigh.
Wearing cologne - that's something I do maybe once or twice a year, but I've thought about it lately. But I feel like it would be too obvious. Thoughts?
Thanks AnotherStander!
One thing I've noticed when I'm giving her space, is W will ask me "Is everything okay?" I usually just respond, "Yes, I'm good" and leave it at that. What is going on in her head when she asks me this?
One of the challenges we get into as an LBS is that we are desperate to know what our WAS is thinking, and they are extremely guarded about keeping that information away from us, because they don't want to give false hope or encourage any type of pursuit.
Therefore, your best bet is not to "mind read" or try to figure out what's going on in her head but just to take things at face value.
When she asks if everything is okay, it may be because:
1) She thinks you look like you're going to throw up and she's worried about the carpet
2) She's feeling guilty about what she's doing and is temperature checking to see if you're mad at her
3) She's done something she doesn't think you know about and is fishing to see if you'll bring it up
4) You're making her responsible for your feelings based on your body language or the look on your face and she doesn't like it. She's looking for you to say you're fine to let her off the hook.
5) She's truly concerned for your well-being and is genuinely interested in how you're feeling
It could be any of those things, and they run the spectrum from completely selfish to altruistic, and there's no way to know which one it was.
Also, we tend to think that a WAS ruminates on the situation and has these long running debates in their head like we do. Usually this is not the case. Often things are said offhand, without premeditation, so it literally may mean nothing and will be forgotten in 2 seconds. That's why one of the DB slogans is "believe nothing they say"
Generally its not a good thing if she's asking if you're okay, because you're betraying that you're upset with your facial expression or your body language. If she's asking you that frequently one goal may be to turn up the "fake it til you make it" and see if you can get her to ask you that less.
If it's getting on your nerves you could say "W, a lot is changing in our lives right now and that takes time to process. Sometimes I'm fine, sometimes I'm thinking about things, but don't worry about it. Whatever happens I know I'll be fine and I'm not worried about it"
That's basically just letting her off the hook and saying, with regard to your feelings and emotions, "I got this"
Acc
Acc, thanks again for your awesome response!
If it's getting on your nerves you could say "W, a lot is changing in our lives right now and that takes time to process. Sometimes I'm fine, sometimes I'm thinking about things, but don't worry about it. Whatever happens I know I'll be fine and I'm not worried about it"
This is just great advice. Thanks!
Yes, Going Dark sounds more severe, and I haven't gone there yet. LRT is more about be a better you, GAL, detach, but be positive and receptive when your spouse initiates something. But then pull back and be the one to end the conversation.
You should definitely be doing that, and I apologize for leading you astray and vow to read DB again so I can brush up on terminology
Weight loss - that started happening immediately after BD
Hahaha! We call that the "BD Diet", and as far as I can tell it is THE MOST EFFECTIVE DIET currently known to mankind. It has roughly a 100% success rate, everyone that participates loses a ton of weight
Wearing cologne - that's something I do maybe once or twice a year, but I've thought about it lately. But I feel like it would be too obvious. Thoughts?
Well the purpose of these things is twofold. One is to get your W to notice something is different, but the other is just to make you feel better about yourself. She will probably notice some of these things and will no doubt say something to you, if she does then just smile and thank her for noticing. If she asks you "why" then just tell her that she helped you realize you had let yourself go and you're trying to work on yourself. That response tells her that you're taking her comments and BD seriously, but that you are changing for yourself and not her, right?
Thanks, AnotherStander!
The BD Diet. Classic! It is very effective
Message received on the cologne. Gonna try that out!
I often hear that you should stop snooping, and it seems to be accepted as gospel. But if snooping can show that there's OM, that changes the approach.
So can we have a conversation about exactly why snooping is bad? Is it that it prevents me from detaching? Does it lower me and turn me into someone I'm not?
When you snoop you find out things that will make it harder to reconcile (lots of bad mental movies), you get upset and then cycle and say and do things you shouldn't (escalation rather than de-escalation), and by doing so you are focusing on the wayward instead of on yourself.
I did my share of snooping and let him know that I knew. Now he has a lot of shame around me. Definitely not paving the way home. I stopped and am much happier.
Thanks, OwnIt. I guess I'm struggling with the possible infidelity. I've always told myself it was a dealbreaker. Now I'm wondering if it's something I could maybe get over, but I'm not sure.
I just don't want to be someone's plan B.
We all must face this issue. I think you can never really make that decision until you see the person standing before you and how ready they are to own their part of it and how committed they are to make the marriage something better than it was before.
Ownit is right -- for one thing it's ethically wrong and living with high integrity yourself can really help you feel better and more in control.
Secondly Ownit is right that you'll get snippets with no context and you'll obsess over it and your brain will supply the worst possible interpretation of anything you find which will make you feel even worse--it's much more self-damaging than you appreciate. Someone described it as punching yourself in the face.
Third when she finds out you're snooping she will resent you more and reinforce your position as her adversary.
Finally it does not change your approach, it really doesn't matter. Focus on you and on not pursuing.
I saw a snippet that W sent her initial EA partner that said "you asked for what you wanted and you got it :)"
My brain of course took that to mean it was a PA and not an EA, and I dreamed up all kinds of torrid scenarios where that was acted out.
What it actually meant is that the office admin had brought chocolate cupcakes in for his birthday because he had asked for them
See the problem? I tortured myself for days for no reason.
After the fact I wished I had a mind eraser to unsee everything I found because it hurt me much more than it helped anything
Acc
Acc, thanks. I appreciate the input.
This is something I will admit I need to work hard on. It's like a compulsion.
I have tortured myself a few times already. Punching yourself in the face seems to sum it up perfectly.
I hope I can learn this lesson from the people here, and not from my own mistakes.
What do y'all think I should do about the email I got from the couples counselor saying my relationship is over? Should I ask W to comment on it? Should I just forget about it and move on?
I haven't been able to talk to my IC about it yet.
I have a feeling it will come out eventually, the next time W sees the couples counselor (either with me or by herself). I don't want it to look like I was too scared to approach W about it. But then again, the strong and independent thing is probably to just deal with it internally and move on.
Those are great responses from Acc and OwnIt. I'll just mention that I too snooped early on and Acc's comments were exactly my experience- I got little bits and pieces that I could not decipher so of course spun the worst out of them and it ended up being completely off-base. One of the more ridiculous things I did was to look at W's paperwork we both had to fill out for the MC. When I saw she mentioned she had been physically abused in the past I couldn't believe it, I had never laid a finger on her! Why would she say this, what was her goal? I really wanted to confront her, but admitting I had snooped was almost worse than the accusation I thought she was leveling against me. Then when we were in MC the C actually asked her about it and she went into the abusive relationship she had been in.... before me. Oh. And even more stupid, I knew about that relationship but had forgotten since it was so long ago. Why did I assume she was talking about me? LBS's are the masters of negative spin!
What do y'all think I should do about the email I got from the couples counselor saying my relationship is over? Should I ask W to comment on it? Should I just forget about it and move on?
I thought I was clear on that before, but I would delete it, fire your C and seek out a solutions-based C or a DB coach.
I thought I was clear on that before, but I would delete it, fire your C and seek out a solutions-based C or a DB coach.
Thanks. You were clear about finding someone new. I just wasn't sure if it was worth mentioning to W. Sounds like it's not.
No, I would tell W you no longer want to go to that counselor as you don't feel you're getting value from it and I wouldn't bring up the "relationship is over" point.
You don't know if your W said that or the counselor came up with it herself, but by focusing on it you give it more significance.
I'm not sure what it would accomplish anyway. If you say "The relationship isn't over to me!" what's the next thing that's going to happen and how is W likely to respond?
I think it will lead her to further entrench and distance more.
Acc
Thanks. You were clear about finding someone new. I just wasn't sure if it was worth mentioning to W. Sounds like it's not.
No that would fall under relationship talks and relationship talks should be put on hold for now:
"20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf."
If you take your WAS to a MC like that one that is not solutions-based and the MC mentions they think it's time to separate, then that MC suddenly becomes your spouse's BEST FRIEND EVER. They will jump all over that advice. Your W will be telling you "well the MC says S and D are the best course of action for us, who are we to argue?" Clearly that's not what you want. By the way that's exactly what happened to me and the trigger for W pushing forward with S.
Thanks Acc and AS! I don't know why I wasn't able to clearly see that bringing up the email would be relationship talk. I won't bring it up. Thanks for setting me straight.
The trick about the MC is that W has been seeing her 1-on-1 in IC for a few months, and I was only brought in after a while for MC to see if it could work out between us. (Now I'm wondering what the whole point of that was.) So W has a prior counseling relationship with her and may continue to see her whether I participate or not. But I will not participate any more and will recommend different MC.
I'd like to talk about "relationship talk". So lately, except for a slip up about a week ago, I've been good about not initiating any relationship talk. But W keeps bringing things up, so that she can let me know there's no chance things will work out. My initial response is that I understand how she feels that way. Then she asks how I'm feeling about things, and keeps digging until she gets some answers. I eventually end up saying that I'm hopeful things will work out between us, but I understand how things have gotten where they are. I will sometimes apologize again for the things I've done wrong in the relationship. And I try to steer things away from any blame going to her. She will sometimes mention that she's aware of the issues she caused in the relationship. Things always seem to end on a sour note. How can I better navigate these conversations?
But W keeps bringing things up, so that she can let me know there's no chance things will work out. My initial response is that I understand how she feels that way. Then she asks how I'm feeling about things, and keeps digging until she gets some answers. I eventually end up saying that I'm hopeful things will work out between us, but I understand how things have gotten where they are. I will sometimes apologize again for the things I've done wrong in the relationship. And I try to steer things away from any blame going to her. She will sometimes mention that she's aware of the issues she caused in the relationship. Things always seem to end on a sour note. How can I better navigate these conversations?
She's temperature checking you to see if (1) you're still pursuing and (2) if she's still responsible for how you're feeling.
You want her to believe the answer to both of those questions is "no".
She's picking up on your body language and facial expression, your demeanor and subtle cues that you're still holding onto her leg, and she's trying to tell you to let go of it with these conversations.
Therefore, your goal should be to have her initiate these conversations less. That's your measure of success with your "Act as If" and "GAL".
The other thing I would say is you should *not* tell her how you're feeling about things. That's your business, and if she doesn't want to be married to you, she doesn't get to know that.
The less you tell her about what you're thinking or how you're feeling the better. The truth is that she doesn't really care how you're feeling, she just wants to be let off the hook, so let her off the hook and she has no reason to run.
If she starts it up again I would say "W, I feel like we've had this conversation several times. I know how you feel, for now, I'm not interested in discussing this anymore. I'm living my life and taking care of myself and that has to be good enough for now."
Then stick to your guns. Tell her nothing about your mental state or your emotions, hopes or dreams, just nothing. If she pushes you tell her you're "going to see what happens" and nothing more.
Acc
Acc, thanks for the awesome clarification! You have a great way of putting things. I need to try to internalize what you've said and use it as a playbook!
Something else I've been thinking about - It's starting to get on my nerves how we sleep in the same bed. Now, we have our kids in the house, so maybe one of us sleeping in the spare bedroom isn't a viable option and would be too obvious. But things sure would be easier for me if we didn't sleep together. And to be clear, there is ZERO intimacy right now - just the perfunctory goodnight kiss, which is starting to feel condescending to me.
I'd still be happy to get feedback on my issues with sleeping in the same bed, posted above.
I've also been thinking about not wearing my wedding ring, to help me detach. My W doesn't wear it around the house, and not on the weekends when she leaves the house - only during the week when she goes to work (well, she takes it with her and has it on when she comes home). I actually commented on it about a week ago, how I noticed she hadn't been wearing it on the weekends. She got defensive, said she didn't notice, and said it wasn't something she intentionally did to hurt me.
I think that sleeping in the same bed makes it hard to give space, but if you're not ready to clue the kids in, then it's what it is. But I would recommend changing your "bed time" so that your either going to bed before her, or even better, after. I don't believe your sitch mentions that there is OM, so I wouldn't initiate a good night kiss, but if she initiates it would probably not be in your best interest to refuse.
As for the wedding ring, it's a personal choice, but don't do it to get a reaction out of her. And btw, mentioning her wearing her ring, or not wearing it is R talk, so stop that. FWIW, I didn't take my ring off until I was done with the M, but not everyone feels the same way.
I have been on and off with my wedding ring the last few days. Mostly away from my W. We have been separated for 5 months she took hers off 6 weeks in and I never saw it again. She came to pick up our daughter yesterday and I am sure noticed I wasn't wearing it. She stayed less time at the house than normal and didn't say goodbye to me which she always does.
DR/DB says to try things out and see what kind of reaction you get. Then ask yourself did it pull her in, push her away or neutral. In my case I think it ended up negative so I put it back on. I will see her tomorrow for a drop off and I will evaluate her behavior then. (Tomorrow is also our 4 year anniversary so that will be interesting)
I also thought taking it off was a form of detachment. After having it off this weekend, I don't think it is right for me. I am married until she puts the paperwork through saying otherwise.
holding, I had the same question regarding sleeping in the same bed. My WW and I still share the bed, no intimacy at all, we are trying to make it look as if everything is OK for now. I do know that I slept a ton better with her out of town for 4 days. As far as the wedding rings, we still ours but I am thinking of removing mine, it doesn't have the same meaning anymore, that time is gone forever! This will hopefully help my detaching, too many triggers that I look at remind me or what used to be, albeit only 6 short months ago. Everything was fine up until January!
Thanks for all the responses!
C-Nut, I realized after the fact that the ring talk was R talk, so I've put the kibosh on that. On the good night kiss, she does initiate the kiss - She leans over toward me after we say good night. You mentioned OM - I have very strong suspicions, but she hasn't admitted to anything. And I gave her many opportunities in the first month after BD. How does OM change the kiss good night scenario?
Chase, thanks for sharing your experience with the ring. I have been taking mine off when not around W, to see how it makes ME feel. At first it felt very wrong. The more I do it, the more it feels ok. It's off right now as a matter of fact. And I feel like it makes me more "available", which helps my self esteem right now.
Dusty, I also sleep much better when W is out of town. Don't have to worry about being woken up in the middle of the night by the light of her phone! On your sitch (hope you don't mind my asking) - D has been filed for, but the kids don't know yet? I'm not at that point myself, but I'd imagine that if D were filed, I'd think it was time to think about having the talk. Once again, no need to respond if I'm prying on your sitch too much.
The advice we usually give here is don't leave your home, and don't leave your bed. Your bed is like the throne in the castle and the king needs to stay on the throne. If you leave the bedroom to her it's a form of pandering. It also leads to all kind of other issues, we've had countless guys here leave the MBR and then come here asking about how to get back in, what to do with their clothes (move them to another room or change in the MBR), what about taking a shower, where to go, etc. etc. JUST STAY IN THE MBR!!!!
Believe me, I understand the discomfort of sleeping next to a WAS. I did it or months. But she's going to leave at some point anyway, so just stand your ground.
By the way, isn't it amazing at how the WAS perfects the art of getting as far away from you as possible in the bed, it's like they can defy gravity and hang halfway off the edge of the bed just to get a little farther away, hahaha!
Regarding rings, it's really personal preference. A lot of times the WAS will leave theirs on simply because they don't want people asking them why they quit wearing it. So it doesn't really mean anything if they continue to wear it, it's certainly no sign they want to work on the M.
A lot changes if there is another person in the Marriage... With a walk away wife (no A), you want to give them the space they want/need, you validate them and you support them without pursuing or pressuring them.
When there is an A, you need to demonstrate that you will not accept that in your marriage, and pretty much check out of the marriage until the A ends. I would not kiss my W if she was having an A, what is that telling her? That you are ok with sharing her.
Either way, GAL, detach, validate, and no pressure is your path for both situations.
AS, thanks! I like the idea of the throne. I'll stay. My W does move to the far edge. LOL!
Funny you mention the bathroom (attached to MBR), as she's started to have some strange behavior in there. Acting "modest" about me seeing her getting out of the bath or when changing. I've tried to start giving her space in the bathroom so we're not in there at the same time. I was thinking about showering in another bathroom, but that's probably like giving up partial throne rights!
C-Nut, regarding A, my suspicions are pretty strong and I did see some VERY CONCERNING things, but I'm trying to stop snooping.
But yes, I am working on me, GAL and detaching. Been getting out of the house, doing things. I'm trying to learn to have a good time by myself, without feeling like it's a wasted effort when no one else is there for me to share it with. That's a big step for me. I'm also trying to validate W's feelings, but I have to avoid it turning into an R talk where my W can dis the R.
Going dark would be so easy (I'm a master of non-communication), but I don't think we're there yet.
holding, my suggestion would be snoop to find out, then STOP. It is something you need to know is going on, but you don't need to know every little detail.
If you should find out that she is in an A, immediately tell her that you know, that you are not willing to be in an open M, tell her that she needs to move out of the MBR (see sandi2's suggestion on how), and immediately go completely dark (don't be mean, but mean what you say). You don't want to go Dark with a WAW, but you do with a WW. Go so dark that she knows that she lost you, that she messed up and you won't stand for it (don't tell her, show her).
I realize that your sharing the MBR because of the kids, but saving your M and your self respect is more important than the kids finding out.
just to clarify, more important than the kids finding out that the marriage is on the rocks, not them finding out about the A.
Good points, C-Nut. I have to think about the snooping though. I've been strong, avoiding it for about a week. I've been trying hard to convince myself that it only hurts me in the long run, and that avoiding it is more about self respect than knowing the truth.
I know there have been skype calls when I am asleep or not home. I know there have been emails with property listings. What is "proof" anyway? A confession of love? Proof of intimacy?
Man, I really don't want to backslide on this.
My W does move to the far edge.
It's like they've discovered levitation, LOL!
I've tried to start giving her space in the bathroom so we're not in there at the same time. I was thinking about showering in another bathroom, but that's probably like giving up partial throne rights!
Yeah, giving "time and space" is tough when you sleep in the same room. Personally I just went on acting as if nothing was different when it came to taking a shower, getting dressed, etc. We did it for 25 years, so it wasn't like we stood there gawking at each other anymore anyway!
I know there have been skype calls when I am asleep or not home. I know there have been emails with property listings. What is "proof" anyway? A confession of love? Proof of intimacy?
Well that's the problem with snooping is most of the time it's hard to decipher what it is you've discovered. I've read so many comments that people have made here where they thought the info they saw meant something only to find out later it was nothing at all. For example, a friend may write your W and say "My husband has been beating me for years" and your W might respond "I've been thinking long and hard about this and leaving with the kids is the only option, maybe even to another state." If you saw her message you would of course assume she's talking about leaving YOU to go to another state. When you snoop you spin the worst possible scenario on EVERYTHING you find. It's just not worth it. And in the end what good does it do, you already know your W wants out of the M.
I hear you on the stop snooping for your sanity, and it is difficult to stop yourself from implying the worst for everything you see.
In my case, I found I love you's and other relationship talk in texts... I didn't have to wonder.
If you don't feel like it's in YOUR best interests, then don't do it. Basically nothing can improve until an A ends, so not knowing just allows a wayward spouse to eat cake for a longer period of time. But like I said, your path to self improvement is the same in either scenario.
I thought I was clear on that before, but I would delete it, fire your C and seek out a solutions-based C or a DB coach.
Thanks. You were clear about finding someone new. I just wasn't sure if it was worth mentioning to W. Sounds like it's not.
Hello Holding,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
It is going to sound like an echo around here. I agree that it would be best to stop MC with this counselor. No need to go if MC doesn't consider your M to be her client. Your wife could just be checking off a box so she can claim that she did everything she could.
Many of your online friends will agree that Divorce Busting coaches will give you the best advice on how to save your marriage and keep your family together. Please call me to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
AS and C-Nut, thanks for the responses on snooping! I'll continue to avoid it and instead work on making myself happy. Snooping really does make me feel dirty and ashamed. I'm better than that.
Cristy, thanks for the encouragement. I have been thinking about a coaching session, and may take the plunge soon.
Journaling:
W has been out of town for a few days, and the lack of tension in the house is refreshing. I don't like to look at wedding pictures or other pictures of us around the house. There's a picture of us on my dresser that I've been thinking about putting away. But then I realize I'd be doing that to see if she notices, to get a reaction from her, and I shouldn't be focusing on her but on myself instead.
I'm going on my third day of not wearing my ring. Not having the ring on has made me realize one positive thing: I don't need to be married to be a good father to my boys.
Yesterday she actually called me, which was a surprise. We just talked a few minutes about her trip and I asked how it was going. She asked again if everything was okay, and I said yes. At the end I said "have fun", and she left a silence hanging there like she was hoping I would say something else. I didn't, and instead said "Ok, bye". She said bye and the call ended. I think I handled that well.
When my wife comes back in town, I know she'll ask if I missed her. This was an ongoing issue in our relationship, where my wife felt like I didn't miss her when she was out of town. She'd ask and I'd say, "A little" or "Not really, you were only gone a couple of days". Of course, I did miss her, but I just said those things to shield myself from the pain, since she was always traveling. And now ... I don't know if I miss her. I don't know where I want things to go from here. Any advice on how I should handle this would be great!
You can be honest with her. If she asks if you missed her you can say "of course, you're my wife, I love you" then cut it off and leave it at that. Preferably walk out of the room at that time and disengage.
As for snooping/not snooping, affairs suck but you have to know where you stand to properly strategize these things. The strategy is different for a faithful spouse talking about D then it is for the "ILYBNILWY" cheating spouse. BTW, that's what most of them say. Ever think about why they would say that particular thing? It's because they have feelings for someone else and it made them realize, or at least falsely realize, they don't feel that way about you. Think about the statement. If they say they're no longer "in love" with you it's because they have something to compare that feeling against. Someone else.
I got that too.
What I see is that you still know WAY too much about her comings and goings. That's not the 180, detaching, GAL, etc. You know that. Her life is hers. Yours is yours. Be more concerned about all the awesome things you can do with your life than the dishonest, seedy things she can do with hers. That's her dishonest life, not yours. Yours is an honest life.
Whatever you're doing for detaching, GAL, moving on, etc. is not enough. I can tell by how much you know about her daily activities.
Once I decided to REALLY do the program all-in 100% then I rarely had any idea what my cheating wife was up to. Her seedy dishonest business/life, not mine. My new life was going to be awesome because I would accept nothing less. I put my plans in motion and executed them. I transformed right in front of her eyes. I went from the sobbing "where are you going?" crybaby husband of a cheater to not asking her a word about anything and doing great things with my life.
Go on an adventure with friends that you haven't done before as a couple. Go zip-lining. Go sky diving. Go on a hike at the nearest state/national park. Be very visible about your awesome new changes but don't talk about them with her. You're too busy to waste time on that.
Seriously my friend. It works.
TXHubby, thanks so much for your input!
Message received on the GAL front. I'll go more in that direction. I do have something pretty adventurous planned for later in the week.
If she asks about being missed, you're recommending I actually say "of course, you're my wife, I love you"? That last part seems out of step with LRT. Plus I've reached a point where I'm not sure what I'm feeling and if I really do miss her.
TXHubby, thanks so much for your input!
Message received on the GAL front. I'll go more in that direction. I do have something pretty adventurous planned for later in the week.
If she asks about being missed, you're recommending I actually say "of course, you're my wife, I love you"? That last part seems out of step with LRT. Plus I've reached a point where I'm not sure what I'm feeling and if I really do miss her.
The program are guidelines. In your case if you feel more comfortable leaving out the last part then so be it. Do what you think will work best for your situation. What I liked to do is leave it in, say it then walk off. No engagement. If they responded trying to pull you into something then say can't talk about it right now, gotta go....and go. Stay active and otherwise engaged in other activities.
Now, if that's something that you have been saying then stop saying it. It will be noticed. The 180 is about changing directions from a lot of things you were doing that wasn't working. It can mean different things for different people. Do what you feel in your case will be the smartest thing to do. When in doubt, however, then check here, with a DB coach, or re-read the books.
Thanks again, Tx!
I think I'll stay away from ILY for now. I want to hold off saying it until I know my W really wants to hear it, and maybe until she can say it to me first (realizing that may never happen again). After BD, I was constantly saying ILY and got responses like "You Too" or "I'll always love you". So I don't want to return to the place of putting myself out there and getting shot down.
Thanks again, Tx!
I think I'll stay away from ILY for now. I want to hold off saying it until I know my W really wants to hear it, and maybe until she can say it to me first (realizing that may never happen again). After BD, I was constantly saying ILY and got responses like "You Too" or "I'll always love you". So I don't want to return to the place of putting myself out there and getting shot down.
Sounds like a good plan. If she asks if you missed her you could just say "of course" or "of course, you're my wife" but either way walk out of the conversation right after that. I developed great skills in cutting off conversations and walking off to do something else. As if I always had something better to do than talking with her.
I think I'll stay away from ILY for now. I want to hold off saying it until I know my W really wants to hear it, and maybe until she can say it to me first (realizing that may never happen again). After BD, I was constantly saying ILY and got responses like "You Too" or "I'll always love you". So I don't want to return to the place of putting myself out there and getting shot down.
Hello holding,
I would hold off on saying ILY at this point. However there are things that could work and make a difference. I suggest you speak to a DB coach, as they are experts in looking at what has happened to bring you to this point in your relationship and what is the best way to interact with her, so that you are most likely to bring her closer and not push her any further away. Your coach's expertise will help you come up with a very specific plan (that may be counter intuitive to what you feel like saying and doing) on how to best turn things around. I wish you all the best and would be happy to discuss the coaching with you.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Can someone explain "dropping the rope" and where it fits in on the DB spectrum?
Is it between LRT and Going Dark?
And are Private Messages disabled for everyone, or is that something we earn after so many posts?
Hi holding,
No private messages for anyone. "Dropping the rope" means that your emotions are no longer impacted by what your WAS does or does not do.
There is some disagreement about it in that some people believe it's something you can do, and others don't. I think it's something that "just happens" given enough passage of time.
You *can* act as if you've dropped the rope, which is the basis of "fake it until you make it"
The point of dropping the rope for your WAS' sake is to open the cage door and let them off the hook for your feelings, and to make them (legitimately) wonder if you are available for them to return to.
The point of dropping the rope for you is to get your sanity back as it were, such that you're able to function as a whole person with "normal" emotions independent of what your WAS says, thinks, or does.
Acc
Thanks for the clarification, Acc.
I met with my IC yesterday, and she thinks I'm taking the email from the MC the wrong way possibly. To be clear, the email basically said, "Your relationship with W is over, but you're working on a new one, and that can be a good thing. Give yourself time to grieve. Do things that make you happy." I still think this is the MC's way of letting me down easy and transitioning into co-parenting. IC says this is possible, but it's not the only possibility. Does this change anyone's mind about the MC?
Anyway, my IC has some issues with the DB approach, which I discussed with her at length. She expressed concern that by detaching I'll be making my heart "hardened". She said using negative emotions as a basis for my decision to detach is a bad idea, but if I'm detaching out of a positive emotion (If you love someone, set them free) then that's okay. How do IC's usually react to DB?
To be clear, the email basically said, "Your relationship with W is over, but you're working on a new one, and that can be a good thing. Give yourself time to grieve. Do things that make you happy." I still think this is the MC's way of letting me down easy and transitioning into co-parenting. IC says this is possible, but it's not the only possibility. Does this change anyone's mind about the MC?
Interesting, well that is far different than what you said before. Actually that is very much in line with what Michele says in her books and what we say here.
She expressed concern that by detaching I'll be making my heart "hardened". She said using negative emotions as a basis for my decision to detach is a bad idea, but if I'm detaching out of a positive emotion (If you love someone, set them free) then that's okay. How do IC's usually react to DB?
It's 5 years post-BD for me, 3 years post-D and I still love my XW. Am I sitting around waiting for her return? No. Do I hope she has an awakening and begs to return? No. Is my heart hardened? Absolutely not. I love her, I respect her, I still think she is an amazing woman and I look back on our many years together with a ton of fondness. I don't know why she did what she did, but I am confident she felt it was right and she was following her heart. And I think she is relatively happy now and I am glad for her. Detaching is moving on, not hardening your heart.
Thanks, AS!
I will admit I have a tendency to assume the worst about things, and that's what I did with the MC's email. I've probably been doing that a lot more than I should. But the MC does give me a weird vibe.
I appreciate the input on detaching. I guess at this point I honestly feel I'm doing it out of spite. I'm angry and I want her to realize what she's missing. I'm not sure if that's a good thing.
I've also recognized that I'm trying to rush myself through this process. It's only been two months since BD, and everyone here says this is a marathon not a sprint.
I am 8 months in now since my WAH BD. This weekend I finally felt free of the emotional roller coaster he had is on. It's like something just clicked. And I thought I don't want this anymore. I want him. But not like this. So I straight out told him we need to sit down and get a parenting plan together and custody and everything tidied up. He didn't answer me. But you know what. He text me have a good night. I haven't heard that in six months. I used to say it to him and he would say thanks or ok. Never say it back. Tonight I got that. I was shocked. But I'm not putting too much stock in it. So please don't beat yourself up over the mistakes you are making. It's ok to be angry. They did you an injustice. But it really really is true. Go out there and GAL. Truly. Stop falling victim to her roller coaster. You don't deserve it. You are way better then that. I know it's hard. I've been there. We all have. And we are all here for you. This is not going to be easy. But I can promise you it is going to be worth it. Whether you make it back together or not. You owe it to yourself to take care of you. The rest will follow. I wish you luck and true self happiness
Hi Holding,
This is a great observation:
I guess at this point I honestly feel I'm doing it out of spite. I'm angry and I want her to realize what she's missing. I'm not sure if that's a good thing.
There's an important distinction -- detaching is 100% about you, it's not a tactic used to elicit a reaction. If you're looking for a reaction then you are not detached pretty much by definition.
Does that make sense?
Going dark is a tactic, detaching is a state of being. If you're detached, no matter what reaction she had, positive, negative, or indifferent, you would not be impacted emotionally at all.
That's what you're going for with the DB tactic of "act as if", you're attempting to appear detached, which means you also need to be impervious to her reactions, no matter what they are.
Regarding your IC's feedback, your IC's job is to make you feel better, DB's job is to save your marriage. Those are not the same thing.
Let's pretend that your IC is correct and you do harden your heart -- why is that bad? If your W wants back into this marriage she should work for it, just like you should. She should win you back. If you're just there for the taking, why is that interesting? If you equate a hardened heart with being cruel, that would be bad. If you equate it with being indifferent, I don't think that's a bad thing for where you are right now, and it's certainly 1000% more productive than pursuing.
Acc
Henwen, thanks for sharing your experiences. It really helps put things into perspective for me. I hope I get to that day where I no longer feel affected by what she's doing. Thanks for the support!
Acc, I suppose the best I can do for now is "act as if" and shoot for indifferent. I don't want to be cruel, as that's not who I am as a person. But I do have fantasies about being cruel, and they make me feel better - although I'd never do them.
I did some really great activities today - bucket list type stuff! Just treated myself to an awesome dinner too. So I'm feeling good for now.
Awesome holding glad to hear it! Taking good care of yourself is the most important thing to do. One of my pet peeves on this site is that people come here hurting looking for support and sometime people (with the best of intentions) immediately ask what they did wrong in the marriage while implies they are here through their own fault.
Relationships are far more complicated than that and in my experience the LBS takes on too much guilt and responsibility--not too little. Your wife is at least equally responsible for getting you here full stop.
You're a good man, you'll be super happy with your life again no matter what happens, that I can promise. You just have to walk a painful road for a while but it does get (much) better.
Acc
Thanks for the support, Acc!
W is starting to get very suspicious of the changes I'm making in myself. Asking me why I'm doing things and what I'm planning. She's also gotten angry with me wearing cologne to work. This led her to start a talk about how I've accused her of infidelity (not just since BD but in the past) and not wearing her ring. It really felt like she was trying to initiate an argument. I had to internally talk myself down when I felt I was about to be pulled in.
I was prepared for the suspicions, but not the anger in this way. I suppose it makes sense though.
Had a good Fourth holiday, good dinner, and fireworks with my sons. W was around - at moments things almost felt "normal" with W. She initiated plenty on eye contact.
On a positive note, I feel like I'm getting better at dealing with W's constant attention to her phone. I'm telling myself not to worry about it and not to check if she has her phone glued to her at all times. What she does is her business and I can't let it take me down.
Sandi, if you happen to pop in here, I'd love to get your input on my sitch too! I've been reading a lot of your stuff lately and thinking about the respect issue.
W is starting to get very suspicious of the changes I'm making in myself. Asking me why I'm doing things and what I'm planning. She's also gotten angry with me wearing cologne to work.
It's the classic "she doesn't want you but she doesn't want anyone else to have you" scenario. How dare you not just sit around at home waiting to see if she changes her mind or not!! The nerve of you establishing your own life without her!! Who do you think you are?
Get used to it, WAS's do not like any positive changes they see in the LBS and often they'll lash out about it. Her angry response means it's getting her attention. You just keep focusing on YOU and leave her to her little temper tantrums. Eventually she'll quit pouting about it and start wondering instead. What is she giving up? What if you move on? Is this all a huge mistake? It's not going to happen overnight, but it will slowly over time.
Thanks, AS! That made me feel a little better. I'll stay the course. The unpredictability is hard to deal with. But I suppose that's par for the course, so I better get used to it!
Does anyone have any advice for stopping relatives from poking their nose into things? My parents know about my situation, and even though I've asked them to butt out, I have a feeling they might still try to insert themselves. As sad as it is to say, I really regret telling them because I'm afraid of what they might do.
Does anyone have any advice for stopping relatives from poking their nose into things?
Tell them you're considering a sex change. That'll create a diversion and give them something else to focus on.
I could really use some advice on dealing with unsupportive parents. They're starting to give me a lot of grief for my situation and are trying to push me to end things. I'm really regretting telling them anything at this point. I have a feeling the only thing that may work at this point is a complete communication blockade with them. They are so overbearing.
I have a very poor relationship with my parents. When my W walked out in March they saw it as the perfect opportunity to stick the boot in "We always knew she would find you out".. "you must have done some terrible things to make her walk away" - even though they have probably spent less than 24 hours with us in the 9 years we have been together.
So.. in direct answer to your question.. Its got nothing to do with them and they only have as much power as you give them. End of.
I could really use some advice on dealing with unsupportive parents. They're starting to give me a lot of grief for my situation and are trying to push me to end things.
This is in chapter 1 of DB. It might help if you read it again. I haven't read it in quite some time (I really need to do a refresher with it) but from what I remember I think Michele suggests just telling your network that you are standing for your M and you would appreciate it if they respect your decision and support you. Friends and family think (wrongly) that ending things is the quickest way out of the pain, so they think they're encouraging you to do the right thing. But they're not.
Last part of comment above - YES!
My mom did this to my dad when I was two, 29 years ago. Dad asked mom to reconcile once she said no so he left. He thinks I should do the same. It started to create an unspoken rift between us. I asked him to borrow his jack stands a while back he came very close to saying no unless I end things with my W. I just know those were the next words. I cut him off and said look, this is my life and I think this is best for me. You either going to support me or not, I don't need people on my team who are opposition.
Soon after he called and said he was sorry. He said what my mom did still haunts him and he doesn't want to see me hurt anymore as he did.
Think you can be direct as I was? It worked for me but end of day if it didn't work that's not their problem.
Thanks for the replies, Benni, AS, and Dale! Sounds like I need to be firm on my stance and boundaries with my parents. My father especially can be like a steamroller of self-righteousness, so being firm with him will be the biggest challenge.
Benni, sorry to hear your parents were so cruel to you. Mine didn't go to that length, but they're not far behind in their reaction to my desire to save things. It's ironic that my parents are the ones who want me to get out, but W's parents are telling her to try to work on things. W and I always seem to be on opposite sides of the same coin.
AS, I haven't read DB but have read DR. But that was over a month ago and I'm probably due for a re-read. I was told that DR is basically an updated version of DB. Is that not the case?
Dale, thanks for sharing your story. I know my parents want the best for me, but they just don't understand the DB approach. They're very religious, oppressively so. Unfortunately they play tit for tat as well.
I was told that DR is basically an updated version of DB. Is that not the case?
Yes. The biggest difference I noticed between the two is DB didn't really give a timeline. She clarified in DR that the timeline can be quite long and she was sorry for misleading people into thinking DBing is a quick fix (there really is no quick fix). She didn't intend for DB to imply a quick turnaround was possible, but the way it was written made it sound like it. Anyway I can't remember if chapter 1 is the same in both books regarding the friends and family situation. I'll try to check that this weekend.
Anyway I can't remember if chapter 1 is the same in both books regarding the friends and family situation. I'll try to check that this weekend.
I just checked for myself, and yes, this is discussed in DR in the first chapter as well. Looks like I need to re-read!
I'm doing better with not being bothered with W when she's constantly on her phone in front of me. I simply imagine that instead she's smearing excrement all over herself.
W got SUPER drunk last night, sitting around the house with me and our sons. I expected she was about to pull something, but instead she passed out and ended up worshiping the porcelain god for about an hour in the middle of the night. Sad.
I've been doing more GAL with friends and my sons. Joined the local Y and take S10 with me all the time. I haven't always been the best husband, but I still think I'm a good father. She can never take that away from me!
One thing I forgot to mention, on Friday before W got totally wasted at home, she met with the MC on her own. This is the MC who sent me the email that said "Give yourself time to grieve, your R with W is over. But you are working on a new one". This is their first session since the email. I wonder if they discussed it, and the drinking was W's reaction to it. I know - stop reading the tea leaves. I never said anything to W about getting drunk, other than "So you had a real rough night last night."
I've been having doubts about whether LRT is right for me. A part of me thinks I'm doing real harm in the MR by pulling away and letting W do the initiating. One of the main reason's I'm in this sitch is because of my poor communication skills in the MR and basically not talking to her. Of course, after BD I did a complete 180 and pursued like crazy - which didn't help. But I guess I just need reassurance about this marathon, and how it's not a sprint.
But I guess I just need reassurance about this marathon, and how it's not a sprint.
I've got this one...
holding,
It's a marathon, not a sprint.
Thanks doodler! Couldn't have navigated that issue without you
So, future plans. I know discussing the future is not a good idea. W has it in her head to take the kids on a trip with her next year. She's discussed this several times and has never included me in the plans. She's started talking about details with me, but I'm never part of the plan. I've just responded with "Cool, looks fun!" and stuff like that. I suspect she's baiting me, so I've just been letting it roll off my back. And advice?
Start planning your own trip.
I've been having doubts about whether LRT is right for me. A part of me thinks I'm doing real harm in the MR by pulling away and letting W do the initiating. One of the main reason's I'm in this sitch is because of my poor communication skills in the MR and basically not talking to her. Of course, after BD I did a complete 180 and pursued like crazy - which didn't help. But I guess I just need reassurance about this marathon, and how it's not a sprint.
Hello holding,
It is going to sound like an echo around here...
Yes, it is a marathon, not a sprint.
LRT is truly the last resort. Discussing your current situation with a DB Coach is the best way to determine if this is the best next step for you.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
I've been having doubts about whether LRT is right for me. A part of me thinks I'm doing real harm in the MR by pulling away and letting W do the initiating. One of the main reason's I'm in this sitch is because of my poor communication skills in the MR and basically not talking to her.
DB'ing is really, really hard because it is counterintuitive. It requires us to do the opposite of what we -think- we should do. Every fiber of our being is screaming "PURSUE!" But you've done that and like you said, it didn't work. What works in a healthy relationship does not work in a broken R. You're in a broken R right now and the rules have changed. Trust in DB'ing.
Thanks for the replies!
OwnIt, I like your idea of planning my own trip. But that little hopeful part of me thinks I'd be shooting myself in the foot. After all, why wouldn't I want to make it a family vacation if the opportunity presents itself?
AS, thanks for the encouragement. DB'ing would be so much easier if this little hopeful part of me didn't keep popping up.
I honestly don't know where this hope keeps coming from. I really don't see much in my situation to be hopeful about. Is this hope I'm feeling just a form of denial, where I just refuse to accept what's happening?
Because holding you will be showing her that actions have consequences and that you are able to move on with her or without her.
Leaning in to what she wants removes her motivation to move away from you, it stabilizes the situation. If you show you're willing to accept that she wants to take separate vacations by planning your own, you're taking away an adversarial relationship.
Thanks for the replies, OwnIt and Acc! I'll start thinking about my own plans. I have plenty of time. I am wondering though if it'll seem like a tit-for-tat move. I probably shouldn't care.
Has anyone here ever had any luck with a religious experience helping the recon? Any WAS ever dabble back in religion, on their own, while going through things?
Not that I have all my eggs in one basket.
I probably shouldn't care.
Agreed, you shouldn't care. Well, at least you shouldn't care about tat.
With regard to the religious thing, I'm a very strict Pastafarian, which means I'm totally unqualified to answer your question.
Well, at least you shouldn't care about tat.
As always doodler, you do not disappoint!
Regarding religion I wouldn't look for it to help. WAS are gifted at justifying what they want to do, and blind to anything contrary to what they want to do.
If it brings you comfort, then by all means go for it, but I wouldn't expect it to turn W around, and even if it did it would be a temporary fix based on shaming that I wouldn't expect to last.
Acc
Acc, what do you mean by shaming? I'm talking about the change coming from inside the WAS. So that would be more guilt than shaming. I can see how shaming wouldn't work, since it comes from the outside.
Just to be clear, as someone who hasn't believed in God in about 10 years and was basically an atheist, I have started to pray again out of desperation, while going down this path. I've seen 2 things that give me a small sliver of hope that maybe my wife is considering prayer (neither of us regularly attend church). I know, don't read the tea leaves.
Regardless, I'm doing LRT and GAL.
Is DB supposed to feel like a Mexican standoff? There are lots of awkward silences, living in the same house. Things are starting to feel like they did before BD. On the other hand, I haven't been temp checked in a week.
When you talked about "religious experience" helping the recon, I assumed you meant enlisting a minister or priest to help speak to her on your behalf. I highly doubt she's going to have a religious ephiphany that will bring her back.
One of the things I did when I was in limbo was read all the marriage/relationship books I could get my hand on. One of them was excellent for the first half, but the second half was a very detailed and deliberate examination into how you could justify divorce within the context of the Bible. My point is that if someone has their heart on a particular course of action, they're going to find a way to justify it regardless of the morals they may otherwise believe in.
Regarding DB being a Mexican standoff, this whole situation is awkward and uncomfortable and DB just exists within it, versus causing it. If you were not DB'ing and were just pursuing away, that would be awkward and uncomfortable too.
Glad you haven't been temp checked -- your GAL and "Act as If" must be improving!
When she feels a lot of pressure from you, all she can think about is escaping the pressure and convincing you that her decision is final. Once you lift the pressure, she has space to think about what she's doing. The more space you give her, the better.
The WAS goes through a cycle of Resentment => Anger => Guilt => Resentment => Anger => Guilt
They stay in that cycle as long as you keep pursuing and/or making them responsible for your feelings, and while they're in that cycle they are completely incapable of seeing anything you do as good.
When you take pressure off, they can move on to: Doubt => Fear => Remorse => Resolve => Doubt => Fear => Remorse => Resolve
When they're in Doubt/Fear/Remorse they actually CAN see the changes you're making and what's different, but when they go into "Resolve" they basically recommit to their course of action.
If you start pursuing again during this delicate cycle they immediately go back into the Resentment/Anger/Guilt cycle and shut down.
That's what people mean when they say its like trying to hand feed a squirrel -- it's so easy to send them spiraling back.
Keep doing what you're doing!
Acc
Thanks, Acc! That's just what I needed.
OK, I need some advice on a text I'm getting from W. I'm meeting a friend after work at a local bar to hang out for a while. I texted W to say I'm going out after work, and she said she'd take care of dinner with the kids (which I usually do). Then she asked where I'm headed, and I said I'm not sure yet. She replies saying, "That's odd, I assume it's after work happy hour". Is there harm in saying what I'm actually doing?
Now she got upset that I didn't respond right away, and said, "Well ok then thanks for letting me know." Advice?
After about 40 minutes, I ended up saying that I was going to meet up with my friend. She responded immediately, "OK Cool Have fun".
People get upset for rational reasons and irrational reasons. If someone gets upset for an irrational reason it does not mean you did something wrong, and therefore its not on you to make the situation right. It's on them to deal with their emotions. All I can tell you about that text exchange is that it's not your job right now to manage her emotions and make her feel good. She needs to own that. Do what you want to do and feel good about it. Having her wonder what you're up to is a good thing for you, so be vague and know that its okay.
Thanks Acc. I have some troubling new developments in my Part 2 thread. You might want to head over there.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2750803#Post2750803